Fall from grace

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Hebrews 3:14---For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;


Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post----1 John 3:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

Which only confirms that enduring to the end is connected to being saved.


2 Peter 3:17---King James Version (KJV)


17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness



Galatians 5:4---King James Version (KJV)


4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.


If once-saved-always-saved is a true doctrine--then how can one fall from grace?

Comments?

[Sir]

Wouldn't Evangelicals simply make the same claim that the scripture above states? They will say that once you are saved you are always saved, but if you ever fall away then you were never really saved in the first place.

[Billyray]

Which only confirms that enduring to the end is connected to being saved.

True. OSAS. The tares (i.e. those ***ociated with the church and often receive blessings ***ociated with the church) will fall away which is exactly what the verse below says.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
Philippians 1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

[Billyray]

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; [B]ye are fallen from grace.



You are a perfect example of a person trying to be justified by the law and in doing so you have placed yourself outside the grace of God. You will be judged by your works and you will fail.

[dberrie2000]

Wouldn't Evangelicals simply make the same claim that the scripture above states? They will say that once you are saved you are always saved, but if you ever fall away then you were never really saved in the first place.

True, but then, they could not have fallen from grace:


Galatians 5:4---King James Version (KJV)


4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

[dberrie2000]

You are a perfect example of a person trying to be justified by the law and in doing so you have placed yourself outside the grace of God. You will be judged by your works and you will fail.

Whatever your judgment of my condition is--the Galatians fell from grace. That means they held the grace of God at some point--then lost it. Billyray--that defies your theology.


Galatians 5:4---King James Version (KJV)


4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

[Billyray]

Whatever your judgment of my condition is--the Galatians fell from grace. That means they held the grace of God at some point--then lost it. Billyray--that defies your theology.

Philippians 1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you *****WILL*****carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Whatever your judgment of my condition is--the Galatians fell from grace. That means they held the grace of God at some point--then lost it. Billyray--that defies your theology.

2 Peter 3:17---King James Version (KJV)

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness



Galatians 5:4---King James Version (KJV)

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.


If once-saved-always-saved is a true doctrine--then how can one fall from grace?



Philippians 1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you *****WILL*****carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

But they had not fallen from grace:


Philippians 1:5---King James Version (KJV)

5 For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;


Is that fellowship contingent upon walking in the light?

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

And is continuance necessary for His grace unto life?


Hebrews 3:14---King James Version (KJV)


14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

[Billyray]

But they had not fallen from grace:


Philippians 1:5---King James Version (KJV)

5 For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;


Is that fellowship contingent upon walking in the light?

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

And is continuance necessary for His grace unto life?


Hebrews 3:14---King James Version (KJV)


14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Philippians 1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you *****WILL*****carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

What does this verse say DB?

[RealFakeHair]

Galatians 5:4---King James Version (KJV)4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.


If once-saved-always-saved is a true doctrine--then how can one fall from grace?

Comments?

You have answered your own question. LDSinc. workers are bound by their Law, thus Grace is not something The God of the Holy Bible you have taken hold of.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Galatians 5:4---King James Version (KJV)4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.


If once-saved-always-saved is a true doctrine--then how can one fall from grace?

Comments?


You have answered your own question. LDSinc. workers are bound by their Law, thus Grace is not something The God of the Holy Bible you have taken hold of.

Whatever your opinion about me is--the scriptures are plain--the Galatians fell from grace. How can one fall from grace unless they have it?


2 Peter 2:20-22---King James Version (KJV)


20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.



Hebrews 6:3-8---King James Version (KJV)

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

[RealFakeHair]

Whatever your opinion about me is--the scriptures are plain--the Galatians fell from grace. How can one fall from grace unless they have it?


2 Peter 2:20-22---King James Version (KJV)



20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.



Hebrews 6:3-8---King James Version (KJV)

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

IMHO, my opinion is the only one that counts, but that is another story.
You have chosen to be judged under the LDSinc. And Joseph Smith jr. imaginary mind. Thus you will be judged under the Law, and not Grace. That is your right, and who am I to say otherwise. I hope by now you realize I don't play Bible-ping-pong. I believe The Old testament Law became of no effect as we read in Gal 5:4.
I am not trying to change your mind, go right ahead and work to the bone for the LDSinc. I am not trying to change your mind. Did I just type that twice?
We have a difference of religious philosophy. You believe the Law of the LDSinc. trumps the Grace of out Lord Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible. There is really no more to it, we came to a fork in the road, you went left, towards Joseph Smith jr. and I went right toward the Blood of the Lamb.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Whatever your opinion about me is--the scriptures are plain--the Galatians fell from grace. How can one fall from grace unless they have it?

2 Peter 2:20-22---King James Version (KJV)

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


Hebrews 6:3-8---King James Version (KJV)

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.


IMHO, my opinion is the only one that counts, but that is another story.

Yup--regardless of what the scriptures testify to. That is evident.

You have chosen to be judged under the LDSinc.

Regardless of what one chooses to be judged under--all will be judged just as Christ testified:


John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.




Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.


Again--if that is true--faith alone theology is false.

[Billyray]

Regardless of what one chooses to be judged under--all will be judged just as Christ testified:

You are absolutely right we all will be judged. Those who place their faith in Christ will be found not guilty because our righteousness is Christ's righteousness imputed to us and those who do not place their faith in Christ will be found guilty and sent to Hell.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Regardless of what one chooses to be judged under--all will be judged just as Christ testified:

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.




Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.


Again--if that is true--faith alone theology is false.


You are absolutely right we all will be judged.

And that in accordance with works--and for life or ****ation. Anathema to the faith alone theology.


Those who place their faith in Christ will be found not guilty

And not a dead faith either:


James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[Billyray]

And that in accordance with works--and for life or ****ation. Anathema to the faith alone theology.

Romans 4
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

What does Romans 4 say about works as it relates to our justification and our righteousness?

[MacG]

Which only confirms that enduring to the end is connected to being saved.


2 Peter 3:17---King James Version (KJV)


17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness



Galatians 5:4---King James Version (KJV)


4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.


If once-saved-always-saved is a true doctrine--then how can one fall from grace?

Comments?

Those who fall from grace are those on whom the kernel of the Word of God fell are shallow soil and or rocky soil full of weeds choked out by the cares of this world. Those who endure to the end, in whom Christ will be faithful to complete the work He started, are those in whom the seed of the word of God fell on good soil, producing a good crop (of what we might ask later for we know a bad tree produces bad fruit). You are both right, "...from a particular point of view" Obiwan . Arguing two sides of a coin. Move to the edge where you can, if you will, see all three sides of the coin.

[dberrie2000]

Romans 4
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

What does Romans 4 say about works as it relates to our justification and our righteousness?

That the Mosaic Law does not count in faith unto righteousness.

What does Paul say about obedience to the gospel of Christ?


Romans 2:5-11----King James Version (KJV)


5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.


And what does the scriptures say about Abraham referenced in Romans4?


Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)

4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.


Could you explain for us how God gave His grace unto Abraham because of his obedience to God--and your interpretational slant that Abraham did no works connected with that grace?

What do the scriptures say about Abraham?


James 2:21-26---King James Version (KJV)


21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

[Billyray]

That the Mosaic Law does not count in faith unto righteousness.

Romans 4
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

So under the Mosaic Law people were justified and considered righteous by God by faith and NOT by the works that they did?

[Billyray]

That the Mosaic Law does not count in faith unto righteousness.

Was Abraham under the Mosaic Law since he is specifically mentioned?

[dberrie2000]

Was Abraham under the Mosaic Law since he is specifically mentioned?

No. Abraham lived under the gospel of Christ--that was Paul's point in Romans4. Abraham did not do the works--because he did not live under the Mosaic Law.

Romans 4
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

That is a reference to Abraham--he did not do the works--he lived under a different Law than the Mosaic Law.

Paul's point? That the Jews--whose calling card to being the elite was a claim to "father Abraham" ---should realize Abraham lived 400 years before the Mosaic Law. In reality, Abraham lived under the very law that Paul was attempting to convert the Jews into--the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Pretty cunning approach, IMO. Brilliant.

Now--here is Abraham's belief:


Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)

4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.



Billyray--if the reference to "works" in Roman4 were to the works of the gospel of Jesus Christ--the Jews could have cut him to pieces--just by quoting Genesis26:4-5. That defies that premise.

Paul's "works" in Romans4 were a reference to the Mosaic Law.

So--if you still maintain that Paul though works were not necessary under the gospel of Christ--could you explain this?


1 Timothy 4:16----King James Version (KJV)


16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

[Billyray]

Romans 4
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

That is a reference to Abraham--he did not do the works--he lived under a different Law than the Mosaic Law.
So are you saying that Abraham did not do any works?

[Billyray]

Billyray--if the reference to "works" in Roman4 were to the works of the gospel of Jesus Christ-

What exactly do you mean when you say "gospel of Jesus Christ" as it pertains to Abraham?

[Billyray]

Paul's "works" in Romans4 were a reference to the Mosaic Law.
No they weren't since he included Abraham who lived before the law.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Paul's "works" in Romans4 were a reference to the Mosaic Law.


No they weren't since he included Abraham who lived before the law.

I beg your pardon. Paul exempted Abraham from those works--for the reason Abraham did not live under the Mosaic Law:


Romans 4:2-5---King James Version (KJV)

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


Romans4:5 refers to Abraham---But to him that worketh not,

Billyray--Abraham did not do the works of the Law--he lived 400 years before the Law of Moses. Abraham lived under the law of Christ--the gospel of Jesus Christ:


Galatians 3:8---King James Version (KJV)

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

That reference(works) could not have been a reference to Abraham's obedience under the gospel he lived under:


Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)


4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

[Billyray]

I beg your pardon. Paul exempted Abraham from those works--for the reason Abraham did not live under the Mosaic Law:

Yet Abraham is mentioned smack dab in the middle of the p***age so this section is not specifically about the Mosaic law.

Can you point out where "Paul exempted Abraham from those works" and tell me what on earth you are talking about when you say this?

[Billyray]

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)


4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Go ahead and list the commandments that Abraham kept.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)


4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.


Go ahead and list the commandments that Abraham kept.

No. The fact that Abraham received of God's grace due to his obedience to Christ is sufficient to deem your theology--and faith alone theology--- false, at once.

[Billyray]

No. The fact that Abraham received of God's grace due to his obedience to Christ is sufficient to deem your theology--and faith alone theology--- false, at once.
So you don't have any idea any of the commandments that Abraham received from God?

[Billyray]

No. The fact that Abraham received of God's grace due to his obedience to Christ is sufficient to deem your theology--and faith alone theology--- false, at once.
Your answer is a perfect example of the deceptive behaviors that are found in the secular book "Spy the Lie". Your first deceptive behavior is avoiding answering my question. Your second deceptive behavior is changing to subject and attacking the questioner. What a perfect example in just one short sentence.

[Billyray]

Paul exempted Abraham from those works--for the reason Abraham did not live under the Mosaic Law
Was Moses required to keep any of the commandments that were given under the Law such as the 10 commandments?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostNo. The fact that Abraham received of God's grace due to his obedience to Christ is sufficient to deem your theology--and faith alone theology--- false, at once.

So you don't have any idea any of the commandments that Abraham received from God?

The scriptures stating that Abraham received of God's grace due to His obedience has nothing to do with my ideas:


Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)


4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

[Apologette]

The scriptures stating that Abraham received of God's grace due to His obedience has nothing to do with my ideas:


Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)


4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
What's the matter, berrie. Lost your platform against grace over on CARM? How about your strange, wicked belief that Satan is a real god? You are on ignore because you are basically nothing but a TROLL! Furthermore, I would suggest that all Christians here put this character on ignore. He has tried to disrupt almost all the Christian posts on CARM with repe***ive posting of out of context Bible verses. This character has a special hatred for the doctrines of grace, and furthermore has taught many times on CARM that Satan is a real god. When asked how Satan became a god according to Mormon exaltation beliefs, this character has avoided answering - simply accusing Paul of being a polytheist. Do yourself a favor and have nothing to do with this Mormon's invasion here. He is out to bring down the board, and CARM as well. Ignore is the best recourse for those, like dberrie, who don't engage in dialogue but simply want to propagate a particular false view of the Bible. The Scripture tells us to have nothing to do with the wicked works of darkness!

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---The scriptures stating that Abraham received of God's grace due to His obedience has nothing to do with my ideas:


Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)


4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.


What's the matter, berrie. Lost your platform against grace over on CARM?

I believe you are aware that CARM is down? I could never lose my platform against the faith alone theology of God giving His salvational grace without any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ--it is Biblical:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


Why do the faith alone reject what the scriptures teach--that God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him? Because it defies faith alone theology?


How about your strange, wicked belief that Satan is a real god?

I suppose you will have to take that up with Paul:


2 Corinthians 4:4---King James Version (KJV)

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.