Tips on how to "evangelize" [Archive] - Walter Martin Ministries Forum

James Banta

08-04-2013, 06:14 PM

No one listens to a "teacher" who shows no love for the person they are trying to teach.

"If the method violates the message, the people see through it right away." Ravi Zacharias

I don't blame anyone for feeling attacked as I show them the error in a religion they have felt is God's one truth for years and years. They may get angry with me all they wish. I don't claim any power or authority to offer them salvation if they believe me.. What I tell them is to stop believing in men and believe in God (Jesus).. How does pointing out error and pointing to God rather than a man invented religion a violation of the message of God's love? Isn't mormonism worse for going out in tens of thousands of missionaries all with the false message that they (the churches of Christinity) were (are) all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”"

That is the reasons that Smith said he was given for his prophetic message and is good, true, and loving but when I tell them that Smith married and had marital relations with many women other than Emma when the BofM absolutely forbids such behavior? Or that God is a glorified man and then say that mormon doctrine and Bible doctrine are the same thing? And I should be so uncaring about what these lies will do to their eternal destiny I should walk away and allow them to enter the Lake of Fire without uttering one word of warning.. Is that what you call love? I disagree with such a definition.. IHS jim

Libby

08-04-2013, 06:25 PM

Sir

08-04-2013, 09:01 PM

Smith did teach that all the Churches were wrong. Ok if that were so then the need for his restoration wouldn't be necessary. But he went WAY beyond that that, He taught that all the teachers of those churches are corrupt. Was that true? They taught from the Bible presenting the word of God for the people to understand. So the message that Smith delivered was a lie That which Jesus presented was the truth.. The lie about other is bad and name calling.. What Jesus taught was the truth and a statement of sheer fact.. Maybe that can help you understand that Jesus didn't commit evil even in calling the teachers of the Law children of the Devil..

I never once said that Smith was teaching mormons to hate anyone.. I just quoted what is said in the official history.. You must see it as hate speech.. IHS jim

Heh....once again I pop in to see James totally misunderstand another poster's position and continue to desperately defend his indefensible position.

James Banta

08-05-2013, 08:12 AM

Heh....once again I pop in to see James totally misunderstand another poster's position and continue to desperately defend his indefensible position.

Did jeff not take his argument from JSH 19? That is just where I picked up what |I said. IT IS EXACTLY the same meaning. If it is not let jeff tell me, so you have no idea here what is going on after all you just pop in now and then.. IHS jim

Sir

08-05-2013, 10:12 AM

nrajeffreturns

08-05-2013, 12:50 PM

Did jeff not take his argument from JSH 19? That is just where I picked up what |I said. IT IS EXACTLY the same meaning. If it is not let jeff tell me, so you have no idea here what is going on after all you just pop in now and then.. IHS jim

Seems like you missed the point about hypocrisy or double standards, Jim.

Joseph Smith said that the churches of his day were in error, and you guys claim it WAS bad--you claim he was teaching Mormons to hate Christians.

But somehow, when you tell people that the devil is their father, it's not teaching hatred? It's not bad?????\

What this means in elementary-school terms, is that you agreed with JohnT's fallacious claim that Joseph Smith was preaching hate when he said that the churches of his day had errors.

Yet you claim it's NOT preaching hate when YOU tell people that the devil is their father---an accusation that is FAR WORSE than telling people their doctrines have errors.

This is a pretty good example of hypocrisy, Pharisee-style, like when they would attack a mote in someone's eye, while their own eyes had much bigger problems than just a mote.

That is the point I was trying to get across to you.

James Banta

08-05-2013, 02:37 PM

Seems like you missed the point about hypocrisy or double standards, Jim.

Joseph Smith said that the churches of his day were in error, and you guys claim it WAS bad--you claim he was teaching Mormons to hate Christians.

But somehow, when you tell people that the devil is their father, it's not teaching hatred? It's not bad?????\

What this means in elementary-school terms, is that you agreed with JohnT's fallacious claim that Joseph Smith was preaching hate when he said that the churches of his day had errors.

Yet you claim it's NOT preaching hate when YOU tell people that the devil is their father---an accusation that is FAR WORSE than telling people their doctrines have errors.

This is a pretty good example of hypocrisy, Pharisee-style, like when they would attack a mote in someone's eye, while their own eyes had much bigger problems than just a mote.

That is the point I was trying to get across to you.

You believe those words "you are of your father the devil" are my words? You claim to know the scripture better than I do and you still credit those words to me.. That is a quotation of Jesus to the Pharisees. Look at John 8:44 and see whose words they are.. Was this my attack on the LDS or was I using it to show that saying things like that could be from a divine source.. It all depends on if the words are truthful in their usage.. Were the minsters of the Christian Church all corrupt? NO. Did they teach for doctrine the commandments of men? NO! Did Smith violate the teaching in the BofM about polygamy? Yes. Did he violate the teachings of the Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul that a bishop/elder of the Church should be the husband of one wife? YES! Which were really corrupt, which were teaching the commandments of men (Himself)? The clear answer is, Smith..

Jesus saw the LEAVEN in the heart of the Pharisees and told them they were of their father the devil. I look as the works of Joseph Smith and by the authority of James 2:18 say the same thing about him in his unrepentant sin.. If he was a son of the Devil, then all that believe in him and follow him are by extension in that same category (Matthew 23:15). IHS jim

James Banta

08-05-2013, 02:51 PM

This thread is not about the "message", James. It's about the method.

If the method is unloving/hateful, the message becomes null and void. You may as well be talking to the wall.

"Before you speak to me about your religion, first show it to me in how you treat other people; before you tell me how much you love your God, show me in how much you love all His children..."

Libby then open your eyes and see what others with the Gospel to teach have said to those that will not listen.. Read John 8:44.. Was the Lord using a gentle hand there? Can you see what I do to care for mt fellow man? You can't? Good you aren't suppose to. Never the less I will tell you I don't just sit on my hands and do nothing. I will show any Christian who asks me what I do.. Not before the world and not to those who are not in Jesus.. I will show only those who need to see my faith through my works. Or better said, the works Jesus does through me.. IHS jim

James Banta

08-05-2013, 02:54 PM

LOL....you are right. When it comes to your posts, I have no idea what's going on.

:)

I hate to see you say things that are so clearly false.. You seem to understand when you wish to.. IHS jim

Libby

08-05-2013, 04:59 PM

Libby then open your eyes and see what others with the Gospel to teach have said to those that will not listen.. Read John 8:44.. Was the Lord using a gentle hand there? Can you see what I do to care for mt fellow man? You can't? Good you aren't suppose to. Never the less I will tell you I don't just sit on my hands and do nothing. I will show any Christian who asks me what I do.. Not before the world and not to those who are not in Jesus.. I will show only those who need to see my faith through my works. Or better said, the works Jesus does through me.. IHS jim

I don't think we should be comparing ourselves to the Lord. His judgment is perfect. Ours is not.

Also, I don't believe anyone wants a laundry list of "good deeds". How we treat people is fairly evident, even online (most of the time).

I'm not judging you or anyone in particular. I just liked this quote...and, the one Mac added from Ravi Zacharias', as well. I remember hearing him talk about perverting the message with our sin. Used to listen to a lot of his talks. Very powerful speaker who always makes me think.

So, the quote I provided in the OP was not directed at anyone in particular. Just food for thought, to whomever can hear it.

Sir

08-05-2013, 05:50 PM

I hate to see you say things that are so clearly false.. You seem to understand when you wish to.. IHS jim

How is stating my opinion "clearly false"?

It's my opinion. It's my view of things as I see them. That's what opinions are. LOL

This is why I don't understand your posts. You don't make sense. Even after I posted that I don't know what you're talking about, Jeff had to remediate you on your argument and help you see that your arguments are hypocritical and not coherent.

Snow Patrol

08-05-2013, 06:02 PM

You believe those words "you are of your father the devil" are my words? You claim to know the scripture better than I do and you still credit those words to me.. That is a quotation of Jesus to the Pharisees. Look at John 8:44 and see whose words they are.. Was this my attack on the LDS or was I using it to show that saying things like that could be from a divine source.. It all depends on if the words are truthful in their usage.. Were the minsters of the Christian Church all corrupt? NO.

Do you think Jesus Christ was referring to the preachers that Joseph knew or was He referring to all possible preachers? My guess, is that He was referring to those J.S. knew. Do you have evidence otherwise? And what evidence do you have that this is a false statement if Jesus Christ was referring to those who J.S. knew?

Did they teach for doctrine the commandments of men? NO!

Again, the same questions from above apply.

nrajeffreturns

08-06-2013, 05:03 AM

You believe those words "you are of your father the devil" are my words?
They become your words if you borrow them to use against other people. Then you own them, Jim.
Just like if you tell someone "Get behind me, satan," you can't weasel out of responsibility for what you said by claiming "Hey, it wasn't ME who said it, it was Jesus."

Was this my attack on the LDS
It seemed that way, if you think the LDS fall into the same category as the Pharisees who Jesus was addressing.

Were the minsters of the Christian Church all corrupt? NO.
"If we say we have no sin, we are liars and the truth is not in us." Doesn't that apply to the ministers of those churches?

Did they teach for doctrine the commandments of men? NO!
Yes, such as "Slavery in the USA is approved by God in the Bible." That is a doctrine that was taught by ministers in 1820, but it's not of God. It is a manmade doctrine.

Did Smith violate the teaching in the BofM about polygamy? Yes.
You need to read the BOM again, Jim, so you can understand how wrong you are.

Jesus saw the LEAVEN in the heart of the Pharisees and told them they were of their father the devil.
You mean He saw the kingdom of God in their hearts? (Jesus likened the kingdom of God to leaven...)

I look as the works of Joseph Smith and by the authority of James 2:18 say the same thing about him in his unrepentant sin.. If he was a son of the Devil, then all that believe in him and follow him are by extension in that same category
But aren't you teaching hatred of LDS if you're accusing all LDS of being children of Satan?
Do you somehow believe such words will make people LOVE the LDS????

James Banta

08-06-2013, 10:49 AM

[nrajeffreturns;147025]They become your words if you borrow them to use against other people. Then you own them, Jim.
Just like if you tell someone "Get behind me, satan," you can't weasel out of responsibility for what you said by claiming "Hey, it wasn't ME who said it, it was Jesus."

Nonsense! We (Mankind) are all sinners, each and everyone of us (Romans 3:23).. In our first birth we are all born under the curse and are children of wrath, children of the devil. Therefore we MUST be born again. Born from above.. Then and only then do we become the children of God. I agree with God in this doctrine.. All those outside Jesus who is God are of their father the Devil.. Sorry if you don't like the truth.. I am not trying to get out of anything or dodge anything in saying that..

It seemed that way, if you think the LDS fall into the same category as the Pharisees who Jesus was addressing.

"If we say we have no sin, we are liars and the truth is not in us." Doesn't that apply to the ministers of those churches?

Anyone that believes that we are saved by grace AFTER ALL WE CAN DO is in the same cl*** as the Pharisees, believing that they can earn what it takes the Blood of God in Jesus to pay for.. You don't like being seen as Pharisaical then stop acting like Pharisees.. Look to God as the mean to become perfect not your own strength. Stop looking to a man that first teaches that God won't give a commandment unless he prepares a way to keep that command. and then tells his followers their god has dismissed them from keeping a commandment because of the actions of other men that are resisting them.. Tell me when did God rescind He changed the nature of God from the trinitarian truth (2 Nephi 31:21) to that of a polytheistic view of Gods (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 473). A view that he lied saying he has ALWAYS PREACHED that there are three gods.

Yes, such as "Slavery in the USA is approved by God in the Bible." That is a doctrine that was taught by ministers in 1820, but it's not of God. It is a manmade doctrine.

Is slavery a nan made doctrine really? Paul told the believers that were slaves they should become free if they could but to be content in the condition they were when they were called (1 Corinthians 7:21-24). |Slavery was a condition that was accessible in the Bible. I was a legal ins***ution of US law.. Doesn't the LDS church believe that the USA was divinely inspired? So mormonism also agreed with slavery in saying that.

You need to read the BOM again, Jim, so you can understand how wrong you are.

Really did you miss this?

Jacob 2:24
Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.

Looks like you need the study more than I do.

You mean He saw the kingdom of God in their hearts? (Jesus likened the kingdom of God to leaven...)

In that it will grow and fill the whole earth.. READ THE CONTEXT..

But aren't you teaching hatred of LDS if you're accusing all LDS of being children of Satan?
Do you somehow believe such words will make people LOVE the LDS????

Nope just trying to awaken then as to their proper place before a holy God.. IHS jim

nrajeffreturns

08-07-2013, 07:22 PM

Me: "But aren't you teaching hatred of LDS if you're accusing all LDS of being children of Satan?"

Jim: "Nope just trying to awaken then as to their proper place before a holy God.. IHS jim "

Then LDS leaders were just doing that, too-- just trying to awaken Christendom as to their proper place before a holy God.

So you can't say it was teaching hatred of Christians, unless you want to be guilty of a hypocritical double standard like the Pharisees had.

Pa Pa

08-08-2013, 05:00 PM

"Before you speak to me about your religion, first show it to me in how you treat other people; before you tell me how much you love your God, show me in how much you love all His children; before you preach to me of your p***ion for your faith, teach me about it through your comp***ion for your neighbors. In the end, I'm not as interested in what you have to tell or sell as in how you choose to live and give."

- Cory Booker, mayor of Newark, New JerseyI like it.

Libby

08-09-2013, 11:42 AM

Thanks, Papa. I liked it, too.

RealFakeHair

08-09-2013, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by Libby
"Before you speak to me about your religion, first show it to me in how you treat other people; before you tell me how much you love your God, show me in how much you love all His children; before you preach to me of your p***ion for your faith, teach me about it through your comp***ion for your neighbors. In the end, I'm not as interested in what you have to tell or sell as in how you choose to live and give."

- Cory Booker, mayor of Newark, New Jersey
I like it.

Who's Cory Booker?

MacG

08-09-2013, 02:30 PM

RealFakeHair

08-09-2013, 02:35 PM

Quoting the Mayor of a run-down-broken yankee city. Now that's priceless. Quote him, but don't invest in him.

Pa Pa

08-09-2013, 06:57 PM

As do I, but with love...love and kindness drive others way.

Libby

08-10-2013, 12:49 PM

Quoting the Mayor of a run-down-broken yankee city. Now that's priceless. Quote him, but don't invest in him.

I know very little about Booker, but I do like this quote. Don't tell me what you believe. Show me what you believe by your actions and how you treat people.

Novato

08-11-2013, 03:57 AM

I know very little about Booker, but I do like this quote. Don't tell me what you believe. Show me what you believe by your actions and how you treat people.

Hi Libs,

I pray all is well with and yours. I think of you often.

Much love,

Novato.

Libby

08-11-2013, 09:28 PM

Hi Novato! I'm very well, thank you. I hope you and yours are well, also.

James Banta

08-12-2013, 07:31 AM

[Libby;147019]I don't think we should be comparing ourselves to the Lord. His judgment is perfect. Ours is not.

Why shouldn't we compare ourselves with the |Lord.. Is He not the PERFECT example? He judged the hypocrisy of the religious men of His day. I follow Him in doing the same thing.
They believed they were righteous for living the Law. The LDS believe the same thing.. They are perfect only on living by the law given to them by Joseph Smith. Going beyond faith in Jesus they add Baptism, laying on of hand and enduring to the end in righteousness.. The take the Holy God and transform him into the likeness of a man. They deny that he is one Lord and teach that there are three God.. I do judge this error, I call it what it is a a works based teaching of anti Christian polytheism.

Also, I don't believe anyone wants a laundry list of "good deeds". How we treat people is fairly evident, even online (most of the time).

In James 2 The Holy Spirit offers a list of good works that should be seen in the life of a Christian. Are you now going to dictate to God what should be included and what should be excluded from His word? When did you receive such authority?

I'm not judging you or anyone in particular. I just liked this quote...and, the one Mac added from Ravi Zacharias', as well. I remember hearing him talk about perverting the message with our sin. Used to listen to a lot of his talks. Very powerful speaker who always makes me think.

For someone that isn't being judgmental you sure have the sound of it as you condemn me for imitating the Lord in His judgments. Stop worrying what I do and follow Jesus.. That was His commandment to Peter as He questioned Jesus about John on the shores of Galilee after the resurrection.. "What if I should want Him to live till I come again, You follow me".. So stop worrying about how God uses me Libby, you follow Him!

So, the quote I provided in the OP was not directed at anyone in particular. Just food for thought, to whomever can hear it.

I say the same thing about your statement in the OP.. STOP worrying about how the Lord uses other Christians and you concentrate on following |Him how ever He decides to use you.. IHS Jim

Libby

08-13-2013, 11:20 PM

Why shouldn't we compare ourselves with the |Lord..

I already said why. We do not have perfect judgment. He does. We are not omniscient. He is. His judgment is perfect. Ours will always be flawed.

Besides, we are primarily instructed to spread the "Good News", love our neighbor as ourselves, and feed the poor...not judge people. Judgment is best left to God.

STOP worrying about how the Lord uses other Christians and you concentrate on following

Who's worried? It was food for thought. Take it or leave it.

nrajeffreturns

08-14-2013, 08:32 AM

Why shouldn't we compare ourselves with the |Lord.. Is He not the PERFECT example?
You aren't allowed to compare yourself to Jesus if you are anti-Joseph Smith and you accused him of blasphemy for comparing himself with Jesus.

They believed they were righteous for living the Law. The LDS believe the same thing..
If Jesus says that those who obey Him are righteous, do you really want to disagree with Him?
If obeying Christ isn't the way to righteousness, then pray tell us Jim: What IS the way?

Stop worrying what I do and follow Jesus.. So stop worrying about how God uses me Libby, you follow Him!
YOU stop worrying what the LDS do, Jim. Stop worrying about how God uses them, Jim, you follow Him and just worry about your own self.

James Banta

08-14-2013, 01:08 PM

[nrajeffreturns;147215]You aren't allowed to compare yourself to Jesus if you are anti-Joseph Smith and you accused him of blasphemy for comparing himself with Jesus.

You are sure right I did that.. I should be called on that because when when I do it I see my failings, and Smith saw his greatness.. I say My sins show clearly in the light of His glory. I do it and see His greatness my my unworthiness. Seems to be that I was wrong, we should all compare ourselves to Jesus.. It would make is all see just what a Mighty God He is, Make us all see that He is our everlasting Father. BUT, if it make us puff ourselves up, of it make us think the we can do ANYTHING that He couldn't do we need to be ashamed.. Even in holding a Church together Smith has paled in what the Lord Jesus has done. It hasn't even bed 200 Years since Smith organized his Church. It has been more that 2,000 years since Jesus said "...I will build my Church and even the gates of Hell won't stand against it". For this discussion I don't mind anything you might want to call the Rock.. To me the Rock is Jesus Himself but you can go ahead and call it what ever is in your mind.. So to say in a boast that "I have done more than any man has and not even Jesus did a work such as I in holding a church together". His comparison lead to boasting not to conviction.. By all means compare yourself with the Mighty God and see just how low you are in that comparison.. Don't worry if you do find that you are better than him in any way many of us will set you straight..

If Jesus says that those who obey Him are righteous, do you really want to disagree with Him?
If obeying Christ isn't the way to righteousness, then pray tell us Jim: What IS the way?

I don't disagree with him at all.. It's just that NO ONE OBEYS HIM... If we could then He wouldn't had needed to die for us.. Since we can't obey Him, Jesus (God) came up with a solution for our sins..

2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

And how do we get in on such a great deal?

Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

YOU stop worrying what the LDS do, Jim. Stop worrying about how God uses them, Jim, you follow Him and just worry about your own self.

Oh My that sounds like a direct command.. I have one from a Higher commanded that supersedes your commands..

Matthew 28:19-20
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

You say stop, He says Go. You say STOP He says Teach. Peter was told these words about John.. John believed in and followed the Lord. God used Him for His glory. It was not up to Peter to be concerned about how God was going to do so.. The LDS believe in a mult itude of Gods, three of which they hold are the Gods of this world. Since the LDS deny what Jesus taught about God (Mark 12:29), they must be taught about God and his ways from scratch.. That is the commission Jesus gave His disciples, it is the authority for my concern for the LDS.. IHS jim

nrajeffreturns

08-14-2013, 07:48 PM

It's just that NO ONE OBEYS HIM...
If you are correct, then He is the author of salvation to no one. (But you are not correct, so hallelujah)

Since the anti-LDS deny what Paul taught about Jesus (Heb.5:9), they must be taught about Jesus and his ways from scratch.

And how do we get in on such a great deal?
By loving Him and knowing. And if you love Him and want to know Him and thus have eternal life (John 17:3), you need to keep His commandments. In other words, obey Him. How else do you expect Him to tell you "Well done, good and faithful servant" ??

You say stop, He says Go.
Actually, YOU said, to Libby, "Stop worrying what I do and follow Jesus.."

Since the LDS deny what Jesus taught about God (Mark 12:29), they must be taught about God and his ways from scratch.

Uh, LDS don't deny this:

Mark 12:29 Common English Bible (CEB)

29 Jesus replied, “The most important one is Israel, listen! Our God is the one Lord,

LDS believe that the God of Israel was the one Lord, called Yahweh or Jehovah, who we know as Jesus Christ.

Nice try, but no cigar.

Libby

08-15-2013, 05:01 PM

James Banta

08-15-2013, 06:51 PM

James, most LDS think that you and others are the ones who need to be "taught". That's why they send out an army of missionaries everyday.

Most people, who think they "know" something are very anxious to p*** it along...that's natural. The older I get the less I "know"....and that's okay; I think that is a sort of "knowing", in itself, when you finally realize you don't know much of anything, for sure.

I guess you didn't see when I said that I an only a poor student of God's word.. I claim no great knowledge.. I am glad to see that you don't either.. When it comes to the army of missionaries, well I do have a small leg up on a teenager that has never barely read the BofM once and never read the whole Bible ever.. What truth they KNOW is that the learned man in Isaiah 29:11 couldn't read the sealed book, but the Unlearned man "could?".. And that Ezek 37:16-20 is all about books of scripture.. That is what they know.. It is all such babies don't know that is scary.. They don't know that God said that no God but Himself has ever been God, or ever will be.. That the Trinity isn't some evil invented by the Bishops that attended the conference of Nicaea in AD 325, but exists in the BofM in 2 Nephi 31:21 and affirmed by Amulek in Alma 11..

I totally understand feeling dumber daily.. I had teenagers too.. IHS jim

James Banta

08-15-2013, 06:58 PM

I already said why. We do not have perfect judgment. He does. We are not omniscient. He is. His judgment is perfect. Ours will always be flawed.

Besides, we are primarily instructed to spread the "Good News", love our neighbor as ourselves, and feed the poor...not judge people. Judgment is best left to God.

Who's worried? It was food for thought. Take it or leave it.

And I showed you why we should compare ourselves with Him It is by sin we see our need for Jesus and His grace.. If we see ourselves as being as Good as Him that is evil.. Smith showed us pure evil in saying he could do something that Jesus couldn't do.. You want to tell me that he is not to be held responsible for such statements? Are we to judge murder, how about rape? Libbly there are things we must judge and no allow to grow in our society.. IHS jim

Libby

08-15-2013, 07:23 PM

James Banta

08-15-2013, 07:51 PM

[nrajeffreturns;147228]If you are correct, then He is the author of salvation to no one. (But you are not correct, so hallelujah)

Please oh please tell me that you have always been obedient.. I really want you to say it just one time...

Since the anti-LDS deny what Paul taught about Jesus (Heb.5:9), they must be taught about Jesus and his ways from scratch.

1. Are you sure Paul was the writer to the Hebrews.. Please show me a reference that makes that clear I really want to knpw that is the truth or not..
2. What does obeying Him include? Does it mean we are held to obey all the commandments of God. Not just as well as we can but obeying Hum completely? Matthew 5:48!
3. If we are called to be perfect as the Father is perfect then should me like Jesus be obedient to the cross as He was?
4. Maybe we Christiana though faith in Jesus can be seen as obedient in ALL ways through the obedience of Jesus (II Cor. 5:21)?

Have the LDS changed the Bible they see as the most correct from the KJV to the CEB? We can use that one just as well.. The One God that is spoken of in Mark 12:29 is God Period! What does Gos say one of His attributes is?

Malachi 3:6
For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

The same God that told us that He doesn't know that there are any other Gods (Isaiah 44:8), told us both though Moses (Deut 6:4) and in Jesus (Mark 12:29) that "Our Lord, is One Lord.. Do the LDS also agree that Jesus is the God that spoke though Isaiah and said that no other God existed before Him (Isaiah 43:10-11).. How does that work can you explain it? So far I have never seen any attempt from any of you to do so.. I have seen some of you (LDS) saying that is "Only for this world". Ok I'll allow you to limit God in that p***age that way, but it still means that there was No God formed before the God speaking in this p***age.. Therefore it can't be Jesus because the LDS teach that He was spiritually born of the Father in heaven while the Father was God.. BUT it can't be the Father either because this God tells us that that no God was formed after Him and the LDS teach that Jesus was formed after the Father.. There is no way that this p***age can be forced to fit into mormonism.. BUT the doctrine of the Trinity, it fits into this p***age like a glove.. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit aren't three Gods that became Gods at different times. They are one God who have always been God, eternally.. The God of Israel is GOD.. There is no other.. None was ever formed other Than He, Not before, not after..

Actually, YOU said, to Libby, "Stop worrying what I do and follow Jesus.."

Uh, LDS don't deny this:

Mark 12:29 Common English Bible (CEB)

29 Jesus replied, “The most important one is Israel, listen! Our God is the one Lord,

LDS believe that the God of Israel was the one Lord, called Yahweh or Jehovah, who we know as Jesus Christ.

Nice try, but no cigar.

Since I am Biblical here and mormon doctrine doesn't seem to bother with believing what the Bible teaches That "Nice try" comment is false and the truth remains in the doctrines of the Bible, not in the doctrines of mormonism..

By loving Him and knowing. And if you love Him and want to know Him and thus have eternal life (John 17:3), you need to keep His commandments. In other words, obey Him. How else do you expect Him to tell you "Well done, good and faithful servant" ??

The question again is ARE YOU OBEDIENT? The Bible says NO! It says all have sinned (Romans 3:23); it says that "But we are ALL as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." (Isaiah 64:5). God's solution for this problem IN all of us is the cross. You refuse to know even the little of Him that we can know. Those attributes explained in the Bible.. You deny that He is eternally God (Psalm 90:2).. You deny that He created all things (Col 1:16). You deny that the Father is a Person of Spirit (John 4:24). that He is invisible (Col:1:15). You deny that God is one Lord (Deut 6:4, Mark 12:29). That nothing and no one was made a God before Him or after Him (Isaiah 43:10).. Can you really expect to be called His good and faithful servant and deny Him is all these ways? IHS jim

nrajeffreturns

08-15-2013, 09:20 PM

Please oh please tell me that you have always been obedient.. I really want you to say it just one time...
I bet you do. I bet you salivate at the thought that I would. You are doomed to disappointment, however.

For me to say I have always been obedient would be as false a claim as the claim that Jesus isn't the author of salvation to all who obey Him.

1. Are you sure Paul was the writer to the Hebrews.
My KJV says he is. Are you saying the translators of the KJV made mistakes?

2. What does obeying Him include?
Man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

3. If we are called to be perfect as the Father is perfect then should me like Jesus be obedient to the cross as He was?
We are commanded to be like Jesus in all ways that applicable to us.

4. Maybe we Christiana though faith in Jesus can be seen as obedient in ALL ways through the obedience of Jesus (II Cor. 5:21)?
You need to obey Jesus if you want eternal life. He can't follow His own commandments FOR you. That won't do it. He wants you to obey Him because He knows that's the only way you can be truly happy.

Since I am Biblical here
If you are, then you're being obedient--something you just claimed is impossible for you to do.

James Banta

08-16-2013, 09:02 AM

[nrajeffreturns;147254]I bet you do. I bet you salivate at the thought that I would. You are doomed to disappointment, however.

For me to say I have always been obedient would be as false a claim as the claim that Jesus isn't the author of salvation to all who obey Him.

No matter, since you wouldn't say you are obedient you are saying you are NOT obedient.. Since that is true and you are not obedience, you admit that you can't be saved, and that by your own interpretation of the Bible.. You have FAILED TO BE OBEDIENT..

My KJV says he is. Are you saying the translators of the KJV mae mistakes?

They were human but remember there wasn't just one of them doing the work. It was a team of translators so I would have to say NO. I am saying that English is a living language.. Even to the point of allowing a negative word to became a positive word.. Saying you are or being called "BAD" is a good thing in the language now depending on the context of the statement. In the KJV LOVE is called CHARITY. In modern English charity is giving time, goods, and funds to support the poor.. Love and charity don't have the same meaning as they did in 1611..

Man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

And you have admitted that you don't do this.. So salvation is out of your reach.. Even in LDS repentance you have to remember and repent of your sin.. This is wild because as I have pointed out you don't keep the feasts that were commanded by God.. Not even the P***over. So What good is it that God pronounces that His feasts are perpetual and we are commanded to keep them. Most people today don't even know when they are to be kept, much less keep them.. You haven't been obedient to every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.. Remember God said He changes NOT (Malachi 3:6)..

We are commanded to be like Jesus in all ways that applicable to us.

This is the mormon way. You don't like what the scriptures teach so you add to them and thereby change the meaning. Be like Jesus (Only as it is applicable to us).. Thank you so showing what mormonism does to scripture "...be conformed to the image of his Son..." (Romans 8:29). I left out the reference to predestination because I know how much you hate a verse that supports Calvinism. Still what did you just do? You added "that applicable to us" to God's simple command to be conformed to the image of Jesus.. Again THANK YOU..

You need to obey Jesus if you want eternal life. He can't follow His own commandments FOR you. That won't do it. He wants you to obey Him because He knows that's the only way you can be truly happy. If you are, then you're being obedient--something you just claimed is impossible for you to do.

And by your own admission you say that you don't obey him.. hummm. Then you say Jesus can't be our righteousness, our obedience. But I showed you in the Bible where it teaches that is just what Jesus did.

2 Cor 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

But you say we must do that on our own.. Who is right here, the Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul or you? Do you think I have any question about that?

I never said I didn't try to follow Jesus and to live as He has commanded I said that You, Me, all men fail. And in so failing become guilty of the whole law (James 2:10). Therefore I will agree with God that before His righteousness in our own works we are all murderers, and adulterers, a thieves, and idolaters, and all the other sins that any man has ever committed.. Jesus took all that off us giving us His righteousness and taking that sin to the cross.. Like Paul all I have to boast in is the love and grace that Jesus has shown me in doing the work of cleansing me. I didn't deserve it; He did it because of His grace through a faith He has given me. I Boast Only that I have a Mighty God, am Everlasting Father such as He.. IHS jim

James Banta

08-16-2013, 09:22 AM

If there is absolute proof of evil, we should denounce it, James. But, I don't think that is really the case with Joseph Smith. Don't get me wrong, I don't believe he was a prophet and I'm sure he sinned, as we all do, but so much of his life is a question mark and can really be argued either way. I'm not going to waste my time denouncing him or the church. I figure people are mostly smart enough to figure it out for themselves...or they are genuinely getting spiritual upliftment from this church. I wish them peace and God's blessings.

If you believe Jesus is a pig and His temple is a mud hole in the yard and you feel uplifted in that lie you think that is fine and the people to have believed that don't need to come to he that is the Way, the Truth, and the LIFE.. The Person who teaches us that there is no salvation OUTSIDE Himself. But those that believe on the Pig are fine because of some pig spiritual "upliftment"? Libby that is liberal nonsense.. IHS jim

nrajeffreturns

08-16-2013, 03:28 PM

No matter, since you wouldn't say you are obedient you are saying you are NOT obedient..
Nice try doing that old anti-LDS trick of changing your original claim into something else, and hoping no one would notice.

Your "challenge" was

"pease oh please tell me that you have always been obedient.. I really want you to say it just one time..."

and now it's "you are saying you are NOT obedient."

Which is a different thing. Suppose you used to be late for meetings, but now you are punctual. If someone said "pease oh please tell me that you have always been punctual" you'd be lying if you claimed you had. Now, what if that person then said "Aha! You are saying you are NOT punctual!" -- would that person be making a logical, valid conclusion?

Obviously not, but that's what you did.

Since that is true and you are not obedience, you admit that you can't be saved, and that by your own interpretation of the Bible..
That is quite false. I wish you understood the gospel, because if you did, then you could rise above the defeatist, fatalistic Calvinism that keeps you oblivious to the glorious truth of Jesus' gospel and to your potential and the good that you are capable of. It's totally false to say that because a person hasn't always been obedient, he can't be saved. A big part of the good news of the gospel is that even though you haven't always obeyed Christ's commandments, you CAN, with His help, become a person who DOES obey them, and that means that you CAN be saved. It's not too late to repent and start obeying, and thanks to Christ's atonement, you can be saved. That is the good news.

They were human but remember there wasn't just one of them doing the work. It was a team of translators so I would have to say NO.
You're saying "NO, the KJV translators didn't make any mistakes." But my KJC says, at the beginning of the epistle to the Hebrews, "THE EPISTLE OF PAUL THE APOSTLE TO THE HEBREWS."

But you doubt that Paul wrote it. How do you explain the KJV saying he DID?

This is wild
The only thing I see as wild is your mistaken conclusions.

because as I have pointed out you don't keep the feasts that were commanded by God..
I am not an ancient Jew. I am a Christian, and there is a lot of the Law of Moses that Christians don't need to observe. Example: Christians don't need to obey the commandment to kill any adulterers among us.

Still what did you just do? You added "that applicable to us" to God's simple command to be conformed to the image of Jesus.. Again THANK YOU..
Christians with common sense are able to tell what in the scriptures is applicable to them, and what is no longer applicable to them or was never applicable to them.

Who is right here, the Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul or you?
All 3 of us--The Holy Spirit, the apostle Paul, and me. The one who is wrong here is you. :)

Libby

08-16-2013, 08:32 PM

If you believe Jesus is a pig and His temple is a mud hole in the yard and you feel uplifted in that lie you think that is fine and the people to have believed that don't need to come to he that is the Way, the Truth, and the LIFE.. The Person who teaches us that there is no salvation OUTSIDE Himself. But those that believe on the Pig are fine because of some pig spiritual "upliftment"? Libby that is liberal nonsense.. IHS jim

That's interesting, James, but really has nothing to do with what I posted. I was speaking of Mormonism, specifically, not "pigs" or satanism or any other kind ism. You are indulging in hyperbole, as usual.

James Banta

08-16-2013, 10:31 PM

[nrajeffreturns;147265]Nice try doing that old anti-LDS trick of changing your original claim into something else, and hoping no one would notice.

Your "challenge" was

"pease oh please tell me that you have always been obedient.. I really want you to say it just one time..."

and now it's "you are saying you are NOT obedient."

Which is a different thing. Suppose you used to be late for meetings, but now you are punctual. If someone said "pease oh please tell me that you have always been punctual" you'd be lying if you claimed you had. Now, what if that person then said "Aha! You are saying you are NOT punctual!" -- would that person be making a logical, valid conclusion?

Obviously not, but that's what you did.

Come now Jeff lets be honest. You didn't answer my question at all.. You aren't dumb you could see that no matter how you answered it you would be wrong. You know that the Bible says that all have sinned. That includes you. Sin is only disobedience to God's commands, so all sin is flat disobedience. You can't be saved in disobedience. Only those that are obedient can be saved.. You preach it and I agree. The difference between us is I know that in the flesh I will NEVER BE 100% obedient, NEVER.. I get the feeling that you believe through repentance you believe you can.. The problem with that is that Jesus criminalized even our thoughts. If we think that God isn't there even for just a second or two we are in sin.. We fail and we fail, and we fail.. Many of these sins we never repent of.. At least not the way mormonism teaches that we must repent of sin..

That is quite false. I wish you understood the gospel, because if you did, then you could rise above the defeatist, fatalistic Calvinism that keeps you oblivious to the glorious truth of Jesus' gospel and to your potential and the good that you are capable of. It's totally false to say that because a person hasn't always been obedient, he can't be saved. A big part of the good news of the gospel is that even though you haven't always obeyed Christ's commandments, you CAN, with His help, become a person who DOES obey them, and that means that you CAN be saved. It's not too late to repent and start obeying, and thanks to Christ's atonement, you can be saved. That is the good news.

I understand the Gospel just fine.. I even understand the other gospel of mormonism. I just know that that is what it is an other gospel that is NOT taught in the Bible.. I have shown you where Calvinism lines up with Biblical doctrine and still you have terrible things to say about it. It doesn't look like you have shown that Predestination isn't taught in the Bible.. It would be a fools errand to say so it is mentioned right in both Romans 8 and Ephesians 1.. I agree with you that if we aren't obedient we can't be saved.. That obedience to all of God's laws are required and THAT no unclean thing can enter the Kingdom of God.. And that according to James if we commit one sin we are guilty of all.. I believe all that because I believe the Bible.. Seems that you have this balance scale idea of salvation.. of we have more good than bad we get to be with Jesus, and it not some lower degree of glory where we fit in.. Can you believe that and somehow make it work with grace? Love to see you do that.. You have not done so in salvation by God's grace through Faith where again clearly it SAYS THAT SALVATION IS NOT OF WORKS..

No One except Jesus has ever kept God's commandments EVER! It is not in us to do so.. The imagination of man's heart is evil even from our childhood (Gen 8:21).. We are in a state of sin from our youth and we do not change.. WE can't start from a filthy condition and while living in the filth of the world clean ourselves up.. As we repent of one sin we commit 3 more.. It's a losing battle.. Din is what we are by nature the devil is our Father until we are born again from above.. Remember I told you some time ago that a Christian doesn't sin as much as they want and still be saved.. A Christian sins much much more then they want and still through the works of Jesus becoming sin for us we have been made the righteousness of God through Him.. That is the Good news the news that you have despised at I quoted it direct from the Bible.. You don't believe God's message, why would I want to repent of believing the truth and accept the lie of a man's mind that is mormonism..

You're saying "NO, the KJV translators didn't make any mistakes." But my KJC says, at the beginning of the epistle to the Hebrews, "THE EPISTLE OF PAUL THE APOSTLE TO THE HEBREWS."

But you doubt that Paul wrote it. How do you explain the KJV saying he DID?

Believing that Paul wrote the book of Hebrews is not taught in the m****cript of the Bible.. I thought you were speaking of the translation not something that the text doesn't address.. Care to address what was in the text and not the tradition of the Church.. All the other epistles of Paul are started with His introduction of Himself. Hebrews is minis that introduction.. It doesn't follow Paul's style and yet still many, even teachers believe that Paul is the Author. Go ahead keep straining at that gnat..

The only thing I see as wild is your mistaken conclusions.

I am not saying it is not Paul's work. I am saying that it doesn't have to be and that there is no clear statement that it is within the text.. Again a leap you seem to be willing to take.. Bit that is fine.. Whether Paul wrote Hebrews or not is not a saving principle. No is it evidence that the Book of Hebrews is not scripture..

I am not an ancient Jew. I am a Christian, and there is a lot of the Law of Moses that Christians don't need to observe. Example: Christians don't need to obey the commandment to kill any adulterers among us. Christians with common sense are able to tell what in the scriptures is applicable to them, and what is no longer applicable to them or was never applicable to them.

I agree that you are not a Jew.. You have nothing in common with the teachings of any of the tribes of Israel. You are NOT a Christian either. Christians believe God in all He has said.. That He is from Everlasting to everlasting to start with, and that He is God and there is no other for a second.. You deny both those foundational teachings about God.. Believing that He lied to us, makes you a God hater, or at best a Pagan.. God called the Feasts of the Law everlasting principles. Even the stranger within Israel was expected to hold respect to those holidays. The Law came from God and Jesus is God.. You are responsible to obey Jesus. You just don't want to be obedient.. You like living in rebellion..

All 3 of us--The Holy Spirit, the apostle Paul, and me. The one who is wrong here is you. :)

Yes you are!!! I have shown you what that is more than once.. IHS jim

nrajeffreturns

08-17-2013, 10:16 AM

Come now Jeff lets be honest.
Hey, that's a great idea! LET'S BE HONEST.

You didn't answer my question at all..
Wait a second, you just said "Let's be honest" and here you are saying something that is false. Wow, that didn't take long, did it? I answered your question. Which made you feel like you needed to change it to something else, I guess because your pride won't allow you to just admit that the answer didn't give you any ammo to use against the LDS.

My HONEST answer to "Have you always been obedient?" was "No." YOU tried to change that into "You are STILL not obedient, and it's impossible for you to EVER become obedient."

So yes, "let's be honest" indeed.

You aren't dumb you could see that no matter how you answered it you would be wrong.
Huh? Wrong about WHAT? About the FACT that the Bible teaches that obedience is a requirement for eternal life, and obedience is proof that you know and love God and His Son? News flash: I am NOT wrong about those things.

You know that the Bible says that all have sinned. That includes you.
It does say that, but if you overliteralize your interpretation of what it MEANT, then you are doomed to eisegesis and to being a slave to Calvinism, which is unbiblical.
"ALL" cannot have been intended to include stillborn babies. They have not sinned, ever. They are like Adam and Eve before THEY sinned.

Using your logic, Adam and Eve had sinned before they sinned.

You can't be saved in disobedience.
Then I guess you aren't "being honest" when you say that you have already been saved. Because by your own admission you still disobey, and by your own statement, you can't be saved in that state that you are currently in.

Only those that are obedient can be saved..
And that is why I want to try to be more obedient, and not give up, until the day comes that I no longer disobey at all. As the saying goes, "If you want to become sinless, you need to start to SIN LESS."

The difference between us is I know that in the flesh I will NEVER BE 100% obedient, NEVER.. I get the feeling that you believe through repentance you believe you can..
The real difference between us is that you swallowed the Calvinistic Cheap Grace idea of "The second you believe in Jesus, you are saved right then and there," while I believe that eternal life is a promise of the FUTURE destiny of people who endure in faith TO THE END.

I understand the Gospel just fine..
Except for the part that goes "Those who believe and obey WILL be saved." You think like Calvin: that "Those who believe are instantly saved right then."

I have shown you where Calvinism lines up with Biblical doctrine and still you have terrible things to say about it.
Hey, it's not just me who has terrible things to say about it. Less than 5% of ALL CHRISTIANS are Calvinists. (Only 80 million out of 2 billion)

That means that Calvinism is a CULT of Christianity. It's a very, very small minority "fringe" group.

It doesn't look like you have shown that Predestination isn't taught in the Bible.. It would be a fools errand to say so it is mentioned right in both Romans 8 and Ephesians 1..
Except that the word is translated "foreordained" not "predestined" in some Bibles.

Seems that you have this balance scale idea of salvation.. of we have more good than bad we get to be with Jesus, and it not some lower degree of glory where we fit in.. Can you believe that and somehow make it work with grace?
Yeah, actually I can.
Grace makes up for the things that are beyond our control. You are right in saying that some people don't remember some of the sins they committed. How can they repent of those sins? If they repentant, they think "I WOULD repent of those sins if I could" and grace takes care of them.

A Christian sins much much more then they want and still through the works of Jesus becoming sin for us we have been made the righteousness of God through Him.. That is the Good news the news that you have despised
That's crazy, I have never despised that doctrine. "Let's be honest" now, okay?

You don't believe God's message,
Oh, I believe GOD'S message. I just don't believe yours and Calvin's.

All the other epistles of Paul are started with His introduction of Himself. Hebrews is minis that introduction..
If Paul didn't write it, then before you believe it's inerrant and God-breathed, shouldn't you be demanding to know who DID write it? Are you in the habit of believing anonymous man's writings to be inerrant God-breathed scripture???

Whether Paul wrote Hebrews or not is not a saving principle. No is it evidence that the Book of Hebrews is not scripture..
Then whether Mormon wrote the BOM or not is not a saving principle, either, nor is it evidence that the BOM is not scripture....

You just don't want to be obedient.. You like living in rebellion..
I bet I want to be as obedient as you want to be...

nrajeffreturns

08-17-2013, 10:24 AM

James Banta

08-17-2013, 11:43 AM

Hey Jim, just for you I am providing a link to a site called

"Calvinism Critiqued by a Former Calvinist"

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/calvinism.html

where he lists the problems with Calvinism.

Also, this site where Dr. William Lane Craig lists problems with Calvinism. Example:

"Universal, divine, causal determinism cannot offer a coherent interpretation of Scripture

Read more: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/molinism-vs-calvinism#ixzz2cF6aKwfo

I have pointed not to a former anything to defend a doctrine I hold dear, but to the scripture.. Tell me that the scripture in wrong, A denial of God's word is all the evidence I will accept from you.. In so doing I will know just what you are, and where you are coming from spiritually.. The Lord teaches us that:

John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

That is what the Bible teaches and Calvinism copied those statement of JESUS INTO THEIR TEACHING. That is what we should be doing! But you bring the statements of a former Calvinist here and represent it without Biblical support as the truth.. I am a former mormon. I come here and give testimony about mormonism do you believe me? NO! You don't even believe with with Biblical support, with support from Joseph Smith's words, or from LDS scripture.. But I am suppose to accept what a former Calvinist teaches? Does that make sence?

Tell you what you read everything that is in this site (http://www.utlm.org/) After you read everything that Sandra Tanner has compiled there come back and share with me and I will read your sites.. After all she is a former LDS as well.. You haven't been able to handle the biblical teaching on which Calvinism was established, much less being able to deal with the 10s of thousands of pages that Sandra has compiled about THE ERRORS and out and out lies of mormonism.. If you can't do that be ready for me to use her information as a resource and you can use a nameless "Former Calvinist" and a academic Dr. William Lane Craig as your references.. Which ever God's word agrees with must be the truth.. You still have to show that either I have misused John 6:37 by taking it out of context, believe that the p***age is in error, or that the p***age is an out and out lie.. IHS jim

nrajeffreturns

08-17-2013, 02:24 PM

I have pointed not to a former anything to defend a doctrine I hold dear, but to the scripture..
You are pointing to your interpretation of that scripture. The other 96% of Christianity points to their interpretation of scripture in their rejection of Calvinism. Why should they abandon their interpretation and accept the interpretation of the small minority, 4% of Christendom?

Tell me that the scripture in wrong,
96% of Christians would probably want YOU to tell THEM the scriptures that refute Calvinism are wrong. What is your reply to them?

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Maybe you Calvinists who make up the 4% minority "cult" are the ones who will be cast out.

But you bring the statements of a former Calvinist here and represent it without Biblical support as the truth..
You're saying that Steve Jones didn't have any Biblical support for his abandoning Calvinism????

You didn't go to his site. Did you?

I am a former mormon. I come here and give testimony about mormonism do you believe me? NO!
But you want me to believe you, right? And you want people to believe that your claims about Mormonism have extra credibility and accuracy because you used to be one of us, correct?

So why the double standard?

Tell you what you read everything that is in this site (http://www.utlm.org/) After you read everything that Sandra Tanner has compiled there come back and share with me and I will read your sites..
Wow, that's a fair deal, right? IF I will read tens of thousands of pages, THEN you will read TWO web pages.

Thanks, but that doesn't seem quite fair, so I will p***. I'd rather just let you remain ******** of the biblical evidence that refutes Calvinism.

...you can use a nameless "Former Calvinist"
NAMELESS??? There must be something wrong with your computer, because when I go the site, his name is on the third line, like this:

Calvinism Critiqued

by a Former Calvinist

by Steve Jones

James Banta

08-17-2013, 04:12 PM

[nrajeffreturns;147291]You are pointing to your interpretation of that scripture. The other 96% of Christianity points to their interpretation of scripture in their rejection of Calvinism. Why should they abandon their interpretation and accept the interpretation of the small minority, 4% of Christendom?

You seem to understand what the scripture in meaning without my explanation.. I don't see anything but what it actually says that 96% of others say it means.. Please explain..

96% of Christians would probably want YOU to tell THEM the scriptures that refute Calvinism are wrong. What is your reply to them?

Maybe you Calvinists who make up the 4% minority "cult" are the ones who will be cast out.

You're saying that Steve Jones didn't have any Biblical support for his abandoning Calvinism????

You didn't go to his site. Did you?

But you want me to believe you, right? And you want people to believe that your claims about Mormonism have extra credibility and accuracy because you used to be one of us, correct?

So why the double standard?

Wow, that's a fair deal, right? IF I will read tens of thousands of pages, THEN you will read TWO web pages.

Thanks, but that doesn't seem quite fair, so I will p***. I'd rather just let you remain ******** of the biblical evidence that refutes Calvinism.

NAMELESS??? There must be something wrong with your computer, because when I go the site, his name is on the third line, like this:

Calvinism Critiqued

by a Former Calvinist

by Steve Jones

Before I could make further explanation to this 96% I would have to know who they are and what they think this and other p***ages that Calvinism believes supports their teaching hold to.. So who are these people? How do you know that 96% of all the people in the world that call themselves Christian deny John 5:37, or have some mysterious interpretation of the p***age other than holding the simple truth of it's straight forward message? I deny that your invention that any such 96% exists.. It is as fictional as the BofM..

I didn't go to your site, I doubt that you went to The Light House.. Oh wait I see that you haven't.. Sp I am expected to read your nonsense but you aren't required to do any study at all.. Isn't it wild that there would be so much wrong with mormonism that the problem can fill a book as large and tightly spaced as "Shadow or Reality". Have you ever read two pages of it or the online pages of utlm.com? Tell you what You agree to read just this one page (http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/firstvision.htm) and I will read your stuff.. Willing? I still have doubts..

I don't care who brings the message it could be a An Independent Bible teacher or a Lutheran Minister. It could be a small child who has just come to realized what Jesus had done for her. The fact that I was LDS is meaningless just as the fact that your Steve Jones say he was a Calvinist has no effect on what the scripture teach.. At any rate I deny you invented 96% of Christians deny Calvinistic teachings. You have no evidence that supports that clam other then your desperate desire for that to be true.. Your desires do not make any lie into truth..

In your post to me you listed him only as a Former Calvinist.. You are right I didn't go to the site.. Why should I go to sites that attack my faith when you refuse to do the same thing.. I am not the fool you take me for..

In John 6:43-44 Even your source admits that God bring all those who Jesus will save to Him.. Yes He does so in and through His word but is the Father that does this not the believer.. The salvation of all who are given that greatest of all gifts is all up to God, not the believer.. Even your invented scripture teaches that saying. "It is my work and my glory to bring to p*** the immortality and eternal life of man". Are mormons then Calvinists? Your source admitted that it is all God's work. Mormon scripture teaches that it is all God's work why are you fighting it.. NOW READ THE SMALL PAGE I SENT YOU..

This is all the examination we need to do of Calvinism.. The problem you have is that ALL Christians Believe that God is one Lord, in the Trinity, That salvation comes to us by God's grace through faith in Jesus and NOT OF WORKS.. Thar all Christians are kings and priests unto God. That in the performance of the duties of a priest we offer the sacrifice of praise to God (Hebrews 13:15).. In short we believe the Bible where as mormonism teaches 3 Gods for this world. Denying that is is unbiblical that one can be created after the first is already God. Denying that There is One God, and even God is unaware of any other Gods existence (Isaiah 44:8)..

Jeff your source Mr Jones is still just as Calvinist as I am.. He believes that all the Father Gives to Jesus will come to Him and that those that come Jesus will in no wise cast out.. You don't agree with him and he is NOT anti Bible.. IHS jim

James Banta

08-17-2013, 04:23 PM

That's interesting, James, but really has nothing to do with what I posted. I was speaking of Mormonism, specifically, not "pigs" or satanism or any other kind ism. You are indulging in hyperbole, as usual.

Oh Libby that was an example to show that a man could invent a different Jesus.. The Jesus Mormonism has invented is the same kind of thing. The work of a man's imagination. You know that the Bible teaches that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one God.. Any Jesus other than the One called the Mighty God the Everlasting Father, The Word that has always been with God, The God who God from everlasting to everlasting. The God if whom no other was formed before or after is a mere invention of the mind of men and is therefore am idol built in his thoughts if not of wood and stone.. I hope you understand better.. Even liberals are saved in the Kingdom of God. Not because they are any more or less valiant for the faith than any other believer but because of the Grace of God and their faith in Jesus.. Hope this helps.. IHS jim

alanmolstad

08-17-2013, 04:56 PM

what is the concern with John 5:37?

John T

08-17-2013, 07:44 PM

JAMES,

How could you fall for such an obvious derail? When the mormons have nothing to sy about the topic at hand, they resort to their fallacious and short-sited interpretation of their favorite boogey man, John Calvin. Because they are spiritually blind, according to what the Sacriptures say, they are incapable of understanding the Biblical doctrine of salvation by grace alone, and not of merit.

Calvin has NOTHING to do with evangelism, but when you see evangelism through the redeemed heart of a Calvinist, then you know why the most effective evangelists are Calvinists, and not Arminians.

nrajeffreturns

08-17-2013, 11:22 PM

You seem to understand what the scripture in meaning without my explanation.. I don't see anything but what it actually says that 96% of others say it means.. Please explain..
Sure: Since 96% of the world's Christians are NOT Calvinists, then apparently they don't see biblical support for Calvinism in the Bible. Only 4% of Christians are Calvinists, so only 4% of Christians think the Bible supports it. (Obviously if they believed that the Bible DOES support it, they'd be Calvinists like you, right?)

Before I could make further explanation to this 96% I would have to know who they are and what they think this and other p***ages that Calvinism believes supports their teaching hold to.. So who are these people?
They are the vast majority of Christians. They are the main body of Christians, and you belong to a small "cult" of Christianity that comprises only 4% of the world's Christians.

How do you know that 96% of all the people in the world that call themselves Christian deny John 5:37, or have some mysterious interpretation of the p***age other than holding the simple truth of it's straight forward message?
You're asking how I know that only 4% of the world's Christians are Calvinists? That's easy: I used the Internet and asked Google "How many Christians are Calvinists?" or something similar, and voila: multiple sites appeared with the answer.

As for John 5:37:

And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,

what on earth makes you think that 96% of all Christians deny that verse???!!! You will have to explain that, because I can't make sense of your claim. What makes you think that any Christian who doesn't subscribe to Calvinism denies John 5:37??

I deny that your invention that any such 96% exists.. It is as fictional as the BofM..
MY invention??

"A 2011 report of the Pew Forum on Religious and Public Life estimated that members of Presbyterian or Reformed churches make up 7% of the 801 million Protestants globally, or approximately 56 million people.[7] Today, the World Communion of Reformed Churches, which includes some United Churches, has 80 million believers."

It is widely claimed that there are about 2 billion Christians in the world.
80 million is 4% of 2 billion, if my math is correct.

I was being generous by choosing 4%, Jim. If we go with the 56 million number, then the percentage is even LESS. What do you say to THIS guy:

"John H. Gerstner was a Professor of Church History at Pittsburgh Theological Seminary and Knox Theological Seminary and an authority on the life and theology of Jonathan Edwards."

R.C. Sproul was one of his students. He estimated "that only 2% are cl***ically Calvinistical when it comes to predestination and election."
http://donbryant.wordpress.com/2010/04/30/how-many-christians-are-calvinists/

So thanks, Jim, for stating that the Book of Mormon is as non-fictional as the claimed number of Calvinists is!
There's hope for you yet! :)

... "Shadow or Reality". Have you ever read two pages of it or the online pages of utlm.com?

Yes. I actually went through the whole book and wrote down all the mistakes and false claims that I found.

Tell you what You agree to read just this one page (http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/firstvision.htm) and I will read your stuff.. Willing?
I think I can do that.

I still have doubts..
Oh ye of little faith.

At any rate I deny you invented 96% of Christians deny Calvinistic teachings. You have no evidence that supports that clam other then your desperate desire for that to be true..
I guess Wikipedia and its sources, and John H. Gerstner, are desperate, too? How much more proof would you need before you would believe?

Your desires do not make any lie into truth..
YOUR desires that more than 4% of Christians be Calvinists, do not make the truth into a lie.

Why should I go to sites that attack my faith when you refuse to do the same thing..
Uh, James, hello? I come to THIS site almost every day!!!

I am not the fool you take me for..
Are you sure about that?

Jeff your source Mr Jones is still just as Calvinist as I am..
But he has "repented" of his belief that Calvinism is correct, while you have not. How does that make him as Calvinist as you are?

You don't agree with him and he is NOT anti Bible..
Yeah, he's just anti-CALVINISM. And so am I. :)

alanmolstad

08-18-2013, 03:33 PM

I believe that walter martin supported a few of calvin's ideas, and disagreed with a few..

I would think that most people fall into that same situation...where we think calvin was right about a few things, and off-base about a few things..

however we must allow Christian grace to cover all such questions, therefore we do not call each other as if the other side were a "CULT".....
Rather we extend grace to the other person and their views knowing that there is much more we agree on compared to the few things we question..

nrajeffreturns

08-18-2013, 08:59 PM

I believe that walter martin supported a few of calvin's ideas, and disagreed with a few..
Then you are like us LDS, because we support a few of calvin's ideas--such as Jesus being the only way to salvation--and we disagree with a few, such as TULIP and Trinitarianism.

I would think that most people fall into that same situation...where we think calvin was right about a few things, and off-base about a few things..
Yes, the LDS are like most people in that regard.

however we must allow Christian grace to cover all such questions, therefore we do not call each other as if the other side were a "CULT".....
Yeah, you are right. We shouldn't call other people such as LDS cultists just because they disagree with Calvin in some places.

Rather we extend grace to the other person and their views knowing that there is much more we agree on compared to the few things we question..
Yes, amen. Very good point, and I agree 100%. There is far more that LDS and other Christians agree on, than disagree on.

James Banta

08-19-2013, 09:15 AM

Sure: Since 96% of the world's Christians are NOT Calvinists, then apparently they don't see biblical support for Calvinism in the Bible. Only 4% of Christians are Calvinists, so only 4% of Christians think the Bible supports it. (Obviously if they believed that the Bible DOES support it, they'd be Calvinists like you, right?)

They are the vast majority of Christians. They are the main body of Christians, and you belong to a small "cult" of Christianity that comprises only 4% of the world's Christians.

You're asking how I know that only 4% of the world's Christians are Calvinists? That's easy: I used the Internet and asked Google "How many Christians are Calvinists?" or something similar, and voila: multiple sites appeared with the answer.

As for John 5:37:

And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,

what on earth makes you think that 96% of all Christians deny that verse???!!! You will have to explain that, because I can't make sense of your claim. What makes you think that any Christian who doesn't subscribe to Calvinism denies John 5:37??

MY invention??

"A 2011 report of the Pew Forum on Religious and Public Life estimated that members of Presbyterian or Reformed churches make up 7% of the 801 million Protestants globally, or approximately 56 million people.[7] Today, the World Communion of Reformed Churches, which includes some United Churches, has 80 million believers."

It is widely claimed that there are about 2 billion Christians in the world.
80 million is 4% of 2 billion, if my math is correct.

I was being generous by choosing 4%, Jim. If we go with the 56 million number, then the percentage is even LESS. What do you say to THIS guy:

"John H. Gerstner was a Professor of Church History at Pittsburgh Theological Seminary and Knox Theological Seminary and an authority on the life and theology of Jonathan Edwards."

R.C. Sproul was one of his students. He estimated "that only 2% are cl***ically Calvinistical when it comes to predestination and election."
http://donbryant.wordpress.com/2010/04/30/how-many-christians-are-calvinists/

So thanks, Jim, for stating that the Book of Mormon is as non-fictional as the claimed number of Calvinists is!
There's hope for you yet! :)

Yes. I actually went through the whole book and wrote down all the mistakes and false claims that I found.

I think I can do that.

Oh ye of little faith.

I guess Wikipedia and its sources, and John H. Gerstner, are desperate, too? How much more proof would you need before you would believe?

YOUR desires that more than 4% of Christians be Calvinists, do not make the truth into a lie.

Uh, James, hello? I come to THIS site almost every day!!!

Are you sure about that?

But he has "repented" of his belief that Calvinism is correct, while you have not. How does that make him as Calvinist as you are?

Yeah, he's just anti-CALVINISM. And so am I. :)

This will be my third attempt to answer you on this post Jeff.. For some reason I would really have it complete and my system would shut down.. Third times the charm..

Jeff your math is badly skewed. Your numbers include all members of both the Roman and Eastern churches, that teach false doctrines such as the doctrines of Limbo, and Purgatory. These deny the teachings of Jesus to allow the little children to come to Him for such is the Kingdom of God (Mark 10:14). It is consistent with the teaches of God though |His word that Jesus bore our sin in His body (1 Peter 2:24).. Those who believe have been made the righteousness of God in Him (2 Corinthians 5:21). Both these churches pray to statues of saints including Mary the mother of Jesus making her of divine nature in the doctrine of immaculate conception. And these that deny the teachings of the Lord even to the place a human being in her nature being an equal with God , you wish to identify as Christian.. Then you want to count as Christian all who deny the Deity of Christ, calling him a mere creation as the JW do.. No, those that put mere men in the place of God. who deny His teaching, putting words of men in their place. Those that build graven images and pray to them, None of these can be held as Christian..

The Roman church alone has over 1 Billion members. The Eastern church at least half that.. When we add all the cults to their number we approach the 2 Billion peoples that you use as an estimate for the number of total Christian. Remember there are still millions that call themselves Christian that have never hardly opened a Bible. Those that don't know the first things of God's message to us.. And all these you want to include as Christian because some nonchristian authority demands it.. I deny their authority to make that decision, I deny yours to accept it as factual. My estimation fall well short of your numbers something like 100-200 million total throughout the world.. Those that believe Jesus is God and believe His word to us.. Of there 100% believe that God is One. That of all those the Father has given to Jesus none will be lost. That in it's self covers predestination, Perseverance of the Saints, Irresistible grace and Unconditional election.

I am sorry If I lead you to the wrong p***age it's John 6:37 not 5.. You know very well I meant The Light House. As far as being allowed on LDS sites I was banned for life within 2 days because I wouldn't be still about Biblical error taught on MADD.. I don't have to tell anyone who I am on LDS.org.. Also comments are not allowed. So there is little doubt I will be able to continue to use it as a source.

No one that believes the Bible denies any of the Bible.. The Believe John 6:37, they believe in predestination as it is taught in Romans 8:29-30 and Ephesians 1:5.. If someones says that they are Christian and denies the words of God, they are liars not Christian.. IHS jim

Billyray

09-08-2013, 06:54 PM

1 John 4:8 "Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love."

Do you think it is loving of you not to tell the LDS on this board that they are in error in their beliefs?

nrajeffreturns

09-09-2013, 06:32 PM

This will be my third attempt to answer you on this post Jeff.. For some reason I would really have it complete and my system would shut down.. Third times the charm..
Sorry for your bad luck, but I am glad it finally worked for you this time.

Jeff your math is badly skewed.
I never did like math much anyway. I had to re-take Calculus in college because I got an F the first time. I did get a B the second time, though. My kids are much better at math than I am. The oldest is a freshman at MIT right now. He is 17 years old. There are about 5 other kids from our state who are freshmen there. Of all the 1620 freshmen there (18,000 applied, and 1620 were accepted), apparently only 3 are active LDS--my son, his room-mate who is from California and the son of Peruvian immigrant parents, and another kid from California who is on the basketball team.

Your numbers include all members of both the Roman and Eastern churches, that teach false doctrines such as the doctrines of Limbo, and Purgatory.
True, but they still count as part of Christendom, in the opinion of me and Wikipedia. Protestantism teaches some false doctrines, too, I bet, but I still consider them to be part of Christendom, too. And so does Wikipedia.

These deny the teachings of Jesus to allow the little children to come to Him for such is the Kingdom of God (Mark 10:14).
Maybe, but Calvinism denies those kids, too, since under Predestination, Absolute Sovereignty, and "You must accept Jesus before you die, or you must go to hell" doctrines, billions of children are doomed to hell.

Both these churches pray to statues of saints including Mary the mother of Jesus making her of divine nature in the doctrine of immaculate conception.
But anyone who believes the Bible to be error-free is in the same boat, making a book of divine nature and "immaculately conceived." That's about as bad as the Mary doctrine, isn't it?

And these that deny the teachings of the Lord even to the place a human being in her nature being an equal with God , you wish to identify as Christian..
But Bible inerrantists place a book being equal to God, yet I still count such people as Christians. I HAVE to, because those people still believe that Jesus is the Son of God and Savior and only way to salvation.

Then you want to count as Christian all who deny the Deity of Christ, calling him a mere creation as the JW do..
If they believe that Jesus is the Son of God and Savior and only way to salvation, then I HAVE to call them Christians. The Arians and Modalists of 1800 years ago were Christians. They had some incorrect beliefs, but they still believed the "essential doctrines about Jesus." Right?

Remember there are still millions that call themselves Christian that have never hardly opened a Bible. Those that don't know the first things of God's message to us..
You don't need to have or read a Bible in order to be a Christian. Lots of people who were converted by the original apostles never had a Bible. They just heard and accepted and believed the gospel that was told to them orally by the apostles.

And all these you want to include as Christian because some nonchristian authority demands it.. I deny their authority to make that decision, I deny yours to accept it as factual.
That's okay, they probably don't recognize YOUR authority to cast them out of the fold.

My estimation fall well short of your numbers something like 100-200 million total throughout the world..
Wow, if there are only 100 million Christians in all the world, then the Message hasn't borne much fruit over the last 1900 years. It's almost like you're saying that if a Christian isn't a Calvinist, then he's not a Christian.

Those that believe Jesus is God and believe His word to us.. Of there 100% believe that God is One. That of all those the Father has given to Jesus none will be lost. That in it's self covers predestination, Perseverance of the Saints, Irresistible grace and Unconditional election.
It is looking even more like you're saying that if a Christian isn't a Calvinist, then he's not a Christian.
So do you accept Wikipedia's estimate of the number of Calvinists in the world? Seems like you do recognize their authority in THAT case...

I am sorry If I lead you to the wrong p***age it's John 6:37 not 5.. You know very well I meant The Light House.
No, I didn't figure that out.

As far as being allowed on LDS sites I was banned for life within 2 days because I wouldn't be still about Biblical error taught on MADD..
What did you say? It must have made some waves and rocked the boat, as the saying goes.

No one that believes the Bible denies any of the Bible.. The Believe John 6:37, they believe in predestination as it is taught in Romans 8:29-30 and Ephesians 1:5.. If someones says that they are Christian and denies the words of God, they are liars not Christian.. IHS jim
I don't think the issue is as black and white as you see it to be. An Arminian would say that you reject the parts of the Bible that refute Calvinism, but he wouldn't say "Therefore, you are a liar, you deny the words of God, and you are not a Christian."

Billyray

09-09-2013, 06:46 PM

But anyone who believes the Bible to be error-free is in the same boat, making a book of divine nature and "immaculately conceived.

What errors are you talking about Jeff?

Libby

09-10-2013, 12:49 PM

Do you think it is loving of you not to tell the LDS on this board that they are in error in their beliefs?

Nothing wrong with giving one's opinion (in a loving way), especially if someone asks. But, viciously and aggressively trying to tear down the faith of another is wrong, IMO. No one has absolute truth. We are all learning and most of us have a very long way to go. I think it is better to live our faith and be an example, in that way, rather than lecturing others on how wrong their beliefs are.

nrajeffreturns

09-10-2013, 01:32 PM

What errors are you talking about Jeff?

ANY of them! :) All it takes is one error to exist, and then a book is not inerrant.

RealFakeHair

09-10-2013, 02:20 PM

Nothing wrong with giving one's opinion (in a loving way), especially if someone asks. But, viciously and aggressively trying to tear down the faith of another is wrong, IMO. No one has absolute truth. We are all learning and most of us have a very long way to go. I think it is better to live our faith and be an example, in that way, rather than lecturing others on how wrong their beliefs are.

I want you to know, I am a know-it-all, just ask me!

Pa Pa

10-11-2013, 06:41 PM

James Banta

10-11-2013, 08:10 PM

Amen! And Amen!

This is how we should therefore treat those that disagree with the word of God.. Those would deny the doctrine of limited atonement when they practice it.. Those that say they believe the Bible and deny the doctrine of predestination..

Mathew 23:23-28
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay t I t h e of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchers, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

So who was this that saw error in the religion of others and called them hypocrites, blind guides, whited sepulchres, those that appear to men as righteous but within are full of hypocrisy and sin? Oh yes Jesus said those things.. So much for the demands for purity from a man when even the Lord of glory used terms that belittled those who denied Him and His message.. So I say Amen and Amen to Jesus and look at the words of men as that which come for from the evil of the human heart.. IHS jim

Pa Pa

10-12-2013, 07:41 AM

This is how we should therefore treat those that disagree with the word of God.. Those would deny the doctrine of limited atonement when they practice it.. Those that say they believe the Bible and deny the doctrine of predestination..

Mathew 23:23-28
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay t I t h e of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchers, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

So who was this that saw error in the religion of others and called them hypocrites, blind guides, whited sepulchres, those that appear to men as righteous but within are full of hypocrisy and sin? Oh yes Jesus said those things.. So much for the demands for purity from a man when even the Lord of glory used terms that belittled those who denied Him and His message.. So I say Amen and Amen to Jesus and look at the words of men as that which come for from the evil of the human heart.. IHS jim
Jim,

Quoting the Bilge to me is like quoting that which I am already familiar. Read Mathhew 24 and read the only times tells us what it coming...not good.

Pa Pa

10-12-2013, 07:53 AM

ANY of them! :) All it takes is one error to exist, and then a book is not inerrant.

One error in an entire book makes it inerrant? That is the argument of the Bible, BoM, D&C and Pearl of Great Price. Moroni admits errors and say "if they be any condemn, not the word (or things) of God". So where are you going with this?

James Banta

10-12-2013, 08:28 AM

Jim,

Quoting the Bilge to me is like quoting that which I am already familiar. Read Mathhew 24 and read the only times tells us what it coming...not good.

I can see the signs of the times.. All it does is make me MORE concerned for you and your LDS brothers and sisters.. I have explained how I feel about the LDS people. That they are still my people. Knowing what is coming makes it all the more critical that the LDS people be shown the truth that God is one Lord. That He offers His grace to all who will accept Him as Savior and LORD THOUGH FAITH.

Will the Church p*** through the Great Tribulation that lays ahead? I for one believe She will. But She will p*** though it as the children of Israel p***ed through the plagues set on Egypt. The Church has nothing to fear from Her FATHER, only the evil of the beast and his false prophet.. But one Must be His to have their fears of those times calmed. Only those that hold the faith and do not bow down to the false prophet and his master the beast will be saved..

But with the gullibility that the LDS have shown in believing that a man is a prophet because he wrote a book even after seeing the false prophecies and changes in his teachings I have to believe that they will be first to bow down and worship the beast..

I don't fear them. All the power they have is over the body.. They can kill me.. So what! My Lord has the power over life and death of all His creation. He has the power to give me eternal life and to cast these evils ones into the Lake of Fire..

I pray for you that you will find the truth in the teachings of the Bible the Oneness of God, and the power of His grace to save though a faith that He gives.. Are you one of the elect The Father has given to Jesus? I don't know.. I pray that there is a time ahead when you will remember that grace and come home to God and praise Him for the gift of eternal life.. IHS jim

nrajeffreturns

10-12-2013, 10:59 AM

One error in an entire book makes it inerrant?
I think you misread it. One error makes a book NOT inerrant.

That is the argument of the Bible, BoM, D&C and Pearl of Great Price. Moroni admits errors and say "if they be any condemn, not the word (or things) of God". So where are you going with this?
I was going the same place you are going with it: Just because a book has some errors in it, doesn't mean it should be condemned. Only God is error free. The men He commands to do things, such as record events, should not be expected to be as infallible as God Himself is.

James Banta

10-15-2013, 02:27 PM

I think you misread it. One error makes a book NOT inerrant.

I was going the same place you are going with it: Just because a book has some errors in it, doesn't mean it should be condemned. Only God is error free. The men He commands to do things, such as record events, should not be expected to be as infallible as God Himself is.

Either Jesus is God or He is not.. If He is then any promises He gives are divine and will be fulfilled. To deny that Jesus promised that heaven and earth would p*** away but that His word would not p*** away is to deny that Jesus is God. This divine promise is strong evidence that the Bible is pure, that it's message is just what God's original intent is.. IHS jim

nrajeffreturns

10-15-2013, 03:32 PM

Either Jesus is God or He is not..
He is deity like His Father before Him is.

If He is then any promises He gives are divine and will be fulfilled.
Yes. Your problem is that you misunderstood what he meant.

To deny that Jesus promised that heaven and earth would p*** away but that His word would not p*** away is to deny that Jesus is God.
To deny that the Bible has been altered over the centuries is to deny reality. To believe that Jesus ever promised that the Bible would never be altered, is to suffer from a misconception.

Billyray

10-15-2013, 03:51 PM

To deny that the Bible has been altered over the centuries is to deny reality.
But you have yet to prove that it has been altered and when this so called alteration took place.

nrajeffreturns

10-15-2013, 05:57 PM

But you have yet to prove that it has been altered and when this so called alteration took place.
Didn't you already admit that the LATE ADDITION of the Johannine Comma occurred? When you add additional words to a book, you alter it, wouldn't you agree?

James Banta

10-16-2013, 03:40 PM

[nrajeffreturns;148330]He is deity like His Father before Him is.

So He was made a God AFTER the Father was already God? Why in the long ago ancient past before the world was made did God do that which he said would never be done.. Why after He was already God did He form another God? Jesus is God as the Father is God (Isaiah 43:10).. He is the God that explained His being though the Psalmist.

Psalm 90:2
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

Yes. Your problem is that you misunderstood what he meant.

I say the He means what He says.. I don't look for other meaning as mormonism has which is seen clearly in it's interpretation of Ezekiel 37 and Isaiah 29.. In Ezekiel God Himself gives the correct interpretation of the sticks, and in Isaiah not once is it taught that the unlearned man can read the book.. But That doesn't matter, mormonism sees a p***age they can force their doctrine into and they ***ign their own incorrect meaning to it. Your religion doesn't have a great record of correctly dividing the word of truth..

To deny that the Bible has been altered over the centuries is to deny reality. To believe that Jesus ever promised that the Bible would never be altered, is to suffer from a misconception.

You really are having a time with your faith in God aren't you.. I agree that the wording has been changed.. I demand that not one of the smallest parts of the message that God has recorded for us has changed at all.. A man could say "I lost my wallet, but found it a few minuets laying on the floor".. Or He could say "I unknowingly dropped my billfold in the kitchen, but I went back and discovered it laying there.. Are those statement different? YES!! Do they convey the same message? YES!! In the KJV of the Bible all the words used are different from the original language. The KJV is all in English, the Original language was (For the NT) Greek.. Does it contain the original meaning.. YES!! That is if you have faith in the promises of Jesus. What misconceptions are there when Jesus promised that His words would never p*** away (Matthew 24:35).. You deny that the straight forward meaning is what is meant so please explain it.. But you never do such things so I won't hold my breath.. IHS jim

James Banta

10-16-2013, 03:50 PM

Didn't you already admit that the LATE ADDITION of the Johannine Comma occurred? When you add additional words to a book, you alter it, wouldn't you agree?

How does this change the word? What differing message is there in 1 John 5:7-8 than we find in the Bible generally?

1 John 5:7-8
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

I have shown many times that the Father is called God in the Scripture, So is the Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.. Yet The Bible is also clear that there is One God not three.. 1 John 5:7 is supported by the rest of scripture.. The Spirit, the water and the Blood all agree as the way to gain forgiveness of sin.. Each shown God's grace through Faith in Jesus.. So verse eight is also supported in the scripture.. How is agreement to the whole an alteration of God's message to us? IHS jim

nrajeffreturns

10-16-2013, 08:21 PM

How does this change the word? What differing message is there in 1 John 5:7-8 than we find in the Bible generally?
I have shown many times that the Father is called God in the Scripture, So is the Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.. Yet The Bible is also clear that there is One God not three.. 1 John 5:7 is supported by the rest of scripture.. The Spirit, the water and the Blood all agree as the way to gain forgiveness of sin.. Each shown God's grace through Faith in Jesus.. So verse eight is also supported in the scripture.. How is agreement to the whole an alteration of God's message to us? IHS jim

So your litmus test for infallibility and immutability of scripture is:

"It's okay to add stuff or take away stuff, as long as the "message" isn't changed."

How does Rev. 22 fit into your test?

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

Billyray

10-16-2013, 10:43 PM

Didn't you already admit that the LATE ADDITION of the Johannine Comma occurred? When you add additional words to a book, you alter it, wouldn't you agree?
How on earth do you propose that it altered the Bible since we know that it was not in the original?

dberrie2000

10-17-2013, 05:25 AM

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns View Post---Didn't you already admit that the LATE ADDITION of the Johannine Comma occurred? When you add additional words to a book, you alter it, wouldn't you agree?

How on earth do you propose that it altered the Bible since we know that it was not in the original?

Are you claiming that all Bibles that have the Johannine Comma are altered? Are altered Bibles still inerrant?

James Banta

10-17-2013, 10:44 AM

So your litmus test for infallibility and immutability of scripture is:

"It's okay to add stuff or take away stuff, as long as the "message" isn't changed."

How does Rev. 22 fit into your test?

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

The word is the message of God.. If that message remains true to it's original meaning then nothing has been added, nothing has been taken away.. The teaching that there is ONE GOD is clear in the Bible. Moses taught it, Isaiah revealed it, Jesus confirmed it.. The LDS have taking that away from the teaching of the Bible.. They have changed it to either "Oh, that is speaking of only this world", or "That was one of the mistranslations we find in the Bible". There is Biblical truth that teaches that God is eternally God.. That He has been God from everlasting and will continue to be God to everlasting (Psalm 90:2). But Joseph Smith tells us that he will teach us how God BECAME GOD.. He taught that all we have known about God is wrong. He said "I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.(History of the Church, Vol 6 Vol. 6, p. 302-304).. Young taught that Adam is our Father and our God and the only God with whom we have to do (JofD, Vol. 1, p. 50).. Since both these men called themselves prophets of God, these professed teachings are changes in the message of God and fall into the plagues we see in Revelation 22:18..

I say that changed don't have to be in the Bible.. They are in the teachings of a man that has convinced others that He has a mome perfect connection to God than all others.. Such contradictory teachings are the changes we are warned of in the Bible.. If the message is unaffected the word hasn't changed.. If it was any other way we would have to see every translation out of the original language and being a change.. Latin, German, French, English... are not even the same language family as NT Greek. Every verse would be under the curse of the Revelation. It must be a warning of not changing the meaning, the intent of God.. Nothing else makes and sense.. IHS jim