Angels

[James Banta]

Just what are these beings? Why are they there? What can they do?

What are they? The Bible tell us that they are spiritual beings that were created to minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation (Hebrews 1:7, 13-14). Again we are taught that angels are an entirely different order of being than humans. Human beings do not become angels after they die. Angels will never become, and never were, human beings. God created the angels, just as He created humanity. The Bible nowhere states that angels are created in the image and likeness of God, as humans are (Genesis 1:26). Angels are spiritual beings. Humans are primarily physical beings, but with a spiritual aspect.

Why are they there? The greatest thing we can learn from the holy angels is their instant, unquestioning obedience to God’s commands. They praise God (Psalm 148:1-2; Isaiah 6:3). They worship God (Hebrews 1:6; Revelation 5:8-13). They rejoice in what God does (*** 38:6-7).

What do angels do? They serve God (Psalm 103:20; Revelation 22:9). They appear before God (*** 1:6; 2:1). They are instruments of God's judgments (Revelation 7:1; 8:2). They bring answers to prayer (Acts 12:5-10). They observe Christian order, work, and suffering (1 Corinthians 4:9; 11:10; Ephesians 3:10; 1 Peter 1:12). They encourage in times of danger (Acts 27:23-24). They care for the righteous at the time of death (Luke 16:22).

No where in all the Bible are angels described as dead or resurrected human beings. Never are they shown to be sexual beings. They a a totally different creation from that of mankind.

One important Biblical FACT to remember as to our ***ociation and everlasting lives with the Lord is that we will continue in our love. Along with Faith and Hope, Love continues when all the other spiritual gifts of God are done away But LOVE is the greatest of all the gifts of God (1Corinthians 13:13).. Marriage is not important, it is not shown to be one of the things angels do. What they can and continue to do is LOVE. What we can continue to do is LOVE.. For we will be like the angels in heaven. Marriage is not spoken of as anything angels do.. Mormons are looking at the wording of Matthew 22:30 as if it were saying "If you aren't married before death you can be married afterward". I see it as saying that we won't be married any more than the angels in heaven are married.. We will be like them in that attribute. We won't hold our loved ones in less strong ties than we have now. But the sexual part of our existence ends at our death. IHS jim

[Pa Pa]

Just what are these beings? Why are they there? What can they do?

What are they? The Bible tell us that they are spiritual beings that were created to minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation (Hebrews 1:7, 13-14). Again we are taught that angels are an entirely different order of being than humans. Human beings do not become angels after they die. Angels will never become, and never were, human beings. God created the angels, just as He created humanity. The Bible nowhere states that angels are created in the image and likeness of God, as humans are (Genesis 1:26). Angels are spiritual beings. Humans are primarily physical beings, but with a spiritual aspect.

IHS jimHow do the two "spirits" lay hands on Lot and pull him back into his house when he offered his daughters so evil men did not violate them, the same two who came to Abraham. Yes some angels are spirits, other are physical being. I have children...they call that pro-creation. God has children, begotten sons and daughters of God who are spiritual beings. There is a reason Christ is refereed too as the "only begotten of the father after the manner of the flesh.

Also who were the angels who came to Christ in the Garden to minister to him and strengthen him; why would God need something he created to help him? Because as Christ said...he has a Father and a God. Why do people ignore this is the Bible, or John 17, where Christ explains what one means when it comes to the relationship between God and all believers? It is cowardice to conflict with Nicene Creed. But hey when men write a document saying, if you are to have salvation one must think upon the Trinity and then kill those who oppose over hundreds of years...why wouldn't people be afraid?

[James Banta]

[Pa Pa;148344]How do the two "spirits" lay hands on Lot and pull him back into his house when he offered his daughters so evil men did not violate them, the same two who came to Abraham. Yes some angels are spirits, other are physical being. I have children...they call that pro-creation. God has children, begotten sons and daughters of God who are spiritual beings. There is a reason Christ is refereed too as the "only begotten of the father after the manner of the flesh.

The angels could do this the same way the invisible God put His hand on Elijah (1Kings 1:46). That was by the power of His word though authority of His will.. God is in the creation business not the sex business. Jesus is the ONLY begotten of God and even that was accomplished through The Person of the Holy Spirit.. Even in the doctrine of Mormonism the Holy Spirit is not believed to be a physical Person. (D&C 130:22).. Jesus throughout His entire mortal ministry was weaken by His flesh. He had thirst, He had hunger, I was pleasured with fine oils and the touch of others as Mary anointed Him.. In this weak flesh why would His creation be with held from offering Him comfort as His flesh was in need?

Just where do I or any Christian disagree with John 17? I won't accuse you of cowardice for not disagreeing with mormonism and agreeing with the Bible that teaches that there is ONE God.. So how is a believer one with Jesus as He is one with the Father? We become one is our mind and heart.. Yes David was called a Man after the Lord's own heart.. He was therefor one in heart with God.. We can be one with God iin many of His attributes but never in His divinity.. His words makes it clear that no other Gods will be formed at any time.. That He and He only is God.. Papa it all to be true, not just your proof texts. If you think you have a contradiction it is because you are not understanding the p***ages that you think are in conflict. You have to find a meaning that allows all His word to be true.. Therefore while we are Joint heirs with Jesus, While we will be one with Jesus as He is one with the Father we will never become a God as He is God.. We will share His glory but not the Godhood that is held by the Persons the Bible calls God. The Father,Son,and Holy Spirit.. If you deny the Trinity you deny that Jesus or the Holy Spirit are God.. And because the Bible teaches that they are God you have to deny the Bible. If you deny the Bible you deny the Holy Spirit and that is a sin you don't want to commit.. In doing that you do need to be afraid. Not of men but of God. IHS jim


Also who were the angels who came to Christ in the Garden to minister to him and strengthen him; why would God need something he created to help him? Because as Christ said...he has a Father and a God. Why do people ignore this is the Bible, or John 17, where Christ explains what one means when it comes to the relationship between God and all believers? It is cowardice to conflict with Nicene Creed. But hey when men write a document saying, if you are to have salvation one must think upon the Trinity and then kill those who oppose over hundreds of years...why wouldn't people be afraid?[/QUOTE]

[dberrie2000]

Just what are these beings? Why are they there? What can they do?

What are they? The Bible tell us that they are spiritual beings that were created to minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation (Hebrews 1:7, 13-14). Again we are taught that angels are an entirely different order of being than humans. Human beings do not become angels after they die. Angels will never become, and never were, human beings. God created the angels, just as He created humanity.

So--tell us--who do you identify this Angel as?


Genesis 48:16---King James Version (KJV)


16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a mul***ude in the midst of the earth.

[Billyray]

So--tell us--who do you identify this Angel as?


Genesis 48:16---King James Version (KJV)


16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a mul***ude in the midst of the earth.
The Angel in verse 16 is referring to God.

[Pa Pa]

The angels could do this the same way the invisible God put His hand on Elijah (1Kings 1:46). That was by the power of His word though authority of His will.. God is in the creation business not the sex business. ]

What a pathetic answer, who suggested God had sex, but do you know what God's first commandment was ever? Mary was a Virgin, but half Christ DNA came from God. Also I do not care about the lack of understanding of people who think they know the Bible...God is a Spiritual being, just as we are. The invisible God applies to the fact that in 99.99999999999% of every time God spoke to man...it was Christ who appeared to man, although the Bible plainly tells that some have seen the Father. Even if you believe Christ is "one" God, then you believe this one God has a body.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
Just what are these beings? Why are they there? What can they do?

What are they? The Bible tell us that they are spiritual beings that were created to minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation (Hebrews 1:7, 13-14). Again we are taught that angels are an entirely different order of being than humans. Human beings do not become angels after they die. Angels will never become, and never were, human beings. God created the angels, just as He created humanity.


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---So--tell us--who do you identify this Angel as?

Genesis 48:16---King James Version (KJV)

16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a mul***ude in the midst of the earth.


The Angel in verse 16 is referring to God.

Specifically--Jesus Christ, it seems. How does that compare to Jame's statement above?

[RealFakeHair]

What a pathetic answer, who suggested God had sex, but do you know what God's first commandment was ever? Mary was a Virgin, but half Christ DNA came from God. Also I do not care about the lack of understanding of people who think they know the Bible...God is a Spiritual being, just as we are. The invisible God applies to the fact that in 99.99999999999% of every time God spoke to man...it was Christ who appeared to man, although the Bible plainly tells that some have seen the Father. Even if you believe Christ is "one" God, then you believe this one God has a body.

It takes two to tango, or something. i don't think sex is pathetic, unless, hum that's another story.
However it was your LDSinc. second manhead incharge, the great prophet of all times Brigham Young who suggested sex between your mormon god and Mary. There is nothing to say from the Holy Bible that God Elohim's DNA was placed upon or within Mary. The Holy Bible only tells us she was overcomed by the Holy Ghost.

[dberrie2000]

It takes two to tango, or something. i don't think sex is pathetic, unless, hum that's another story.
However it was your LDSinc. second manhead incharge, the great prophet of all times Brigham Young who suggested sex between your mormon god and Mary. There is nothing to say from the Holy Bible that God Elohim's DNA was placed upon or within Mary. The Holy Bible only tells us she was overcomed by the Holy Ghost.

I can't say that I have ever seen the term "overcomed" in the Bible.

[RealFakeHair]

I can't say that I have ever seen the term "overcomed" in the Bible.

That is the way a Pentacostal would say it. However Brigham Young put it in a sexual way or by natural way of making woppie.

[Billyray]

Specifically--Jesus Christ, it seems. How does that compare to Jame's statement above?

What James said is true "God created the angels, just as He created humanity" and humanity is distinct from the angles. In the verse that you quoted this is referring to God himself not His created beings i.e. angels or humans.

[RealFakeHair]

What James said is true "God created the angels, just as He created humanity" and humanity is distinct from the angles. In the verse that you quoted this is referring to God himself not His created beings i.e. angels or humans.

I have six little angels who look more like thier gandmother than their papa, thank God!

[Pa Pa]

It takes two to tango, or something. i don't think sex is pathetic, unless, hum that's another story.
However it was your LDSinc. second manhead incharge, the great prophet of all times Brigham Young who suggested sex between your mormon god and Mary. There is nothing to say from the Holy Bible that God Elohim's DNA was placed upon or within Mary. The Holy Bible only tells us she was overcomed by the Holy Ghost.In his day men only knew one way people were begotten, in our day we know it can be done without intercourse...God knew this before all things. Not to mention "Mormon Doctrine" whom everyone hates made it clear that Mary was a virgin, and that any Church who believed otherwise was "totally apostate and false". It was never our doctrine and BY's statement was never made canon and never will, nor the King Follet Discourse. None of these things will ever become canonized scripture. Ever noticed that the RLDS Prophets each felt the need to add to the D&C, yet our Prophets have only added two sections in 193 years...they don't let their egos enter in to it. If they were self proclaimed Prophets, each would feel the need to do so, to justify their "Prophethood".

[Billyray]

In his day men only knew one way people were begotten, in our day we know it can be done without intercourse...God knew this before all things.

So is your way to try and get out from under what your LDS leaders have said because we both know what they said was incorrect?

[James Banta]

[Pa Pa;148359]What a pathetic answer, who suggested God had sex,

I like the way you put that "suggested".. You suggested just that when you said "I have children...they call that pro-creation. God has children, begotten sons and daughters of God who are spiritual beings."


but do you know what God's first commandment was ever?

Of course I do..


Mary was a Virgin, but half Christ DNA came from God.

I disagree with that.. I say all the Humanity of Jesus came from His mother.. All Of His divine nature came from God.. He was therefore fully Man and Fully God (John 1:1,14)


Also I do not care about the lack of understanding of people who think they know the Bible...

The only difference we have there is I do care about their lack of understanding. We are told that "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent John 17:3".. And you tell me that you don't care about eternal life for your fellow man? Where is your zeal for truth in such a statement?


God is a Spiritual being, just as we are. The invisible God applies to the fact that in 99.99999999999% of every time God spoke to man...it was Christ who appeared to man, although the Bible plainly tells that some have seen the Father. Even if you believe Christ is "one" God, then you believe this one God has a body.

You call my answer pathetic when I show that God can lay His hand on a man and then cause angels to lay their hand on men as well, and them you dare to compare the Spirit of God to that of a man? God IS SPIRIT (John 4:24). Jesus later told us the nature of a spirit and compared to the flesh "A spirit doesn't have flesh and bone as you see I have (Luke 24:39).. According to the statements of the Lord Jesus The Father is Spirit and being such hasn't a body of flesh and bone..

Again in the First Vision Testimonies of Joseph Smith the oldest one (1834), the one in His own handwriting doesn't mention the Father at all. It was the later version of this event (1843) The Father's presence was "recalled". Then what was His message? He introduced Jesus, that was all.. In Paul Vision Jesus introduced Himself. In that first version what Smith recorded was Jesus introducing Himself.. Smith added the most important Person in the universe seemed to be added to the text as an after thought.. The Father is no once revealed to men as more than a Spirit is any p***age of scripture.. This doctrine of God being a being a exalted man with a physical body is an invention of Joseph Smith..

The Flesh that Jesus took upon Himself is NOT GOD.. The person who has filled that shell is the eternal God.. It is that Person that is one God with the Father, and the Holy Spirit..And why did he take on that body? To show us the way to eternal life.. So you have said that the Father has appeared to man the same way Smith said He appeared to him.. Show me in the scripture where that was done.. Even in the one time I can recall that God spoke to man He was not seen.. The Bible is true as it teaches that "No man seen God at ANY TIME; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (John 1:18)..

If you are so understanding of these doctrines where as I am so lost why is it that my responses are filled with Biblical teachings while yours have nothing to support them but your opinion? IHS jim

[James Banta]

So--tell us--who do you identify this Angel as?


Genesis 48:16---King James Version (KJV)


16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a mul***ude in the midst of the earth.

Just by reading verse 15 into the context you can see it is God.. Question, is this one of your hard questions? IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

In his day men only knew one way people were begotten, in our day we know it can be done without intercourse...God knew this before all things. Not to mention "Mormon Doctrine" whom everyone hates made it clear that Mary was a virgin, and that any Church who believed otherwise was "totally apostate and false". It was never our doctrine and BY's statement was never made canon and never will, nor the King Follet Discourse. None of these things will ever become canonized scripture. Ever noticed that the RLDS Prophets each felt the need to add to the D&C, yet our Prophets have only added two sections in 193 years...they don't let their egos enter in to it. If they were self proclaimed Prophets, each would feel the need to do so, to justify their "Prophethood".

In my day too!. 2000 years ago, Natural, meant the same 150 years ago and today. Why else did the LDSinc. change it from the Holy Ghost to the mormon god himself doin the natural with his daughter Mary. No matter how you try and change history you can't change the meaning of the word Natural. the same way you and I were brought into this world. Wait a minute, My MOM would NEVER?

[Pa Pa]

So is your way to try and get out from under what your LDS leaders have said because we both know what they said was incorrect?
If is canonized scripture it is worthy of debate, not everything a Prophet says is not scripture. You are they to get out from under, the whole truth.

[Billyray]

If is canonized scripture it is worthy of debate, not everything a Prophet says is not scripture. You are they to get out from under, the whole truth.

So you can't trust a thing that you prophets have said outside the Standard Works? What good are they since you can't trust them.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by James Banta View Post---Just what are these beings? Why are they there? What can they do?

What are they? The Bible tell us that they are spiritual beings that were created to minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation (Hebrews 1:7, 13-14). Again we are taught that angels are an entirely different order of being than humans. Human beings do not become angels after they die. Angels will never become, and never were, human beings. God created the angels, just as He created humanity.


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---So--tell us--who do you identify this Angel as?


Genesis 48:16---King James Version (KJV)

16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a mul***ude in the midst of the earth.


Just by reading verse 15 into the context you can see it is God.. Question, is this one of your hard questions? IHS jim

The hard questions begin with asking you how does the fact the Angel spoken of in Genesis48--which is identified as Jesus Christ--- compare with your above statement---Angels will never become, and never were, human beings. God created the angels, just as He created humanity.

[James Banta]

The hard questions begin with asking you how does the fact the Angel spoken of in Genesis48--which is identified as Jesus Christ--- compare with your above statement---Angels will never become, and never were, human beings. God created the angels, just as He created humanity.

Is not the flesh of Jesus created by God? Is Jesus God? Is God timeless? Then to use the foreknowledge of God the verse is still perfect as it is written.. IHS jim

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---The hard questions begin with asking you how does the fact the Angel spoken of in Genesis48--which is identified as Jesus Christ--- compare with your above statement---Jame's Quote---Angels will never become, and never were, human beings. God created the angels, just as He created humanity.

Is not the flesh of Jesus created by God?

The "Angel" of Genesis48:16 was long before the mortal Christ.

Genesis 48:16---King James Version (KJV)

16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a mul***ude in the midst of the earth.

Again--how does Genesis48:16 being Christ Himself--as an Angel--not a mortal--compare with your statement:

Jame's Quote---Angels will never become, and never were, human beings. God created the angels, just as He created humanity.

[Billyray]

Jame's Quote---Angels will never become, and never were, human beings. God created the angels, just as He created humanity.
God did create the angels and God is not a created being/angel.

[dberrie2000]

God did create the angels and God is not a created being/angel.

But you were to one who identified the "Angel" of Genesis48:16 as God--right?


Billyray---What James said is true "God created the angels, just as He created humanity" and humanity is distinct from the angles. In the verse that you quoted this is referring to God himself not His created beings i.e. angels or humans.

Genesis 48:16---King James Version (KJV)

16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a mul***ude in the midst of the earth.

[Billyray]

But you were to one who identified the "Angel" of Genesis48:16 as God--right?

That is correct but God is not a created being/angel. Rather God created humans and angels.

[dberrie2000]

That is correct but God is not a created being/angel. Rather God created humans and angels.

But Jesus Christ is identified as an Angel:

Genesis 48:16---King James Version (KJV)

16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a mul***ude in the midst of the earth.

How does that compare to Jame's statement? :



Originally Posted by James Banta View Post----Angels will never become, and never were, human beings. God created the angels, just as He created humanity.

[James Banta]

But Jesus Christ is identified as an Angel:

Genesis 48:16---King James Version (KJV)

16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a mul***ude in the midst of the earth.

How does that compare to Jame's statement? :

Hey God did create the angles. But the Angel who is the redeemer is God.. It all in the context.. maybe it's that as an LDS you aren't used to using the context of a p***age to understand it.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

But Jesus Christ is identified as an Angel:

That is correct but Jesus is God and He is not a created being/angel. Angels and humans are created by our creator who is God. God on the other hand is not a created being.

[James Banta]

That is correct but Jesus is God and He is not a created being/angel. Angels and humans are created by our creator who is God. God on the other hand is not a created being.

We have to understand that any Spirit was called and angel by the disciples:

Acts 12:15
And they said unto her, Thou art mad. But she constantly affirmed that it was even so. Then said they, It is his angel.

Again the meaning of the word depends on the context of the p***age.. It could be translated as the Spirit of God and not "The Angel" in Genesis 48:16. But is is written as Angel and so it stays Angel.. IHS jim

[dberrie2000]

That is correct but Jesus is God and He is not a created being/angel. Angels and humans are created by our creator who is God. God on the other hand is not a created being.

It is a contradictory statement to say "Angels and humans are created"--and that Jesus is not created--and then to state Jesus is identified as the Angel in Genesis48:16:

Genesis 48:16---King James Version (KJV)

16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a mul***ude in the midst of the earth.

[Billyray]

It is a contradictory statement to say "Angels and humans are created"--and that Jesus is not created--and then to state Jesus is identified as the Angel in Genesis48:16:

Jesus in the OT had many appearances (i.e. Christophany) and in those appearances he appears in many different ways--for example he appeared in bodily form. Yet LDS teach that Jesus did not have a physical body at that point. Isn't that a contradiction according to your beliefs?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---That is correct but Jesus is God and He is not a created being/angel. Angels and humans are created by our creator who is God. God on the other hand is not a created being.


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post--It is a contradictory statement to say "Angels and humans are created"--and that Jesus is not created--and then to state Jesus is identified as the Angel in Genesis48:16:

Genesis 48:16---King James Version (KJV)

16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a mul***ude in the midst of the earth.


Jesus in the OT had many appearances (i.e. Christophany) and in those appearances he appears in many different ways--for example he appeared in bodily form. Yet LDS teach that Jesus did not have a physical body at that point. Isn't that a contradiction according to your beliefs?

And could you explain to us what this has to do with Jesus being identified as an Angel in the Biblical text--and how that compares to Jame's statement?



Originally Posted by James Banta View Post----Angels will never become, and never were, human beings. God created the angels, just as He created humanity.

Or yours:


Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---That is correct but Jesus is God and He is not a created being/angel. Angels and humans are created by our creator who is God. God on the other hand is not a created being.

Could you explain to us your statement-- Angels and humans are created by our creator who is God. --and compare that to the fact the Angel of Genesis48:16 is identified as Jesus Christ?

[James Banta]

And could you explain to us what this has to do with Jesus being identified as an Angel in the Biblical text--and how that compares to Jame's statement?




Or yours:



Could you explain to us your statement-- Angels and humans are created by our creator who is God. --and compare that to the fact the Angel of Genesis48:16 is identified as Jesus Christ?

Here you go.. You found a reference that points out that God can also be called a Angel.. Good for you.. You won the point.. NOW here is another for you to work on.. No Angel was ever a human being.. Even in the p***age you quoted Jesus was not yet born into the world. He was not at that time a human spirit, nor a resurrected person.. Congratulations on winning the point.. To bad it doesn't do a thing to support mormonism..

Hey did you know that there is no recorded reference that Smith ever used his handshake method to divide unborn angelic messengers, Resurrected beings, and Satanic deceivers. For all we know everything he said he had seen were all Satanic deceivers..

I guess this again shows Papa that I try hard to be honest in my posts.. Unlike what he had to say about my level of integrity.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Could you explain to us your statement-- Angels and humans are created by our creator who is God. --and compare that to the fact the Angel of Genesis48:16 is identified as Jesus Christ?
I thought I already touched on this already with my statement below? Did you bother reading it?

Jesus in the OT had many appearances (i.e. Christophany) and in those appearances he appears in many different ways--for example he appeared in bodily form. Yet LDS teach that Jesus did not have a physical body at that point. Isn't that a contradiction according to your beliefs?
Here is a quote from BK commentary that expounds on my statement about this.


". . .The Angel of the Lord found the maidservant in the desert at a spring ... beside the road to Shur (cf. 25:18) on the way to her homeland, Egypt. This is the first reference in the Old Testament to “the Angel of the LORD” (lit., “the Angel of Yahweh”). This Angel is identified with Yahweh in 16:13, as well as in 22:11-12; 31:11, 13; 48:16; Judges 6:11, 16, 22; 13:22-23; Zechariah 3:1-2. And yet the Angel is distinct from Yahweh (Gen. 24:7; 2 Sam. 24:16; Zech. 1:12). Thus “the Angel of the LORD” may refer to a theophany of the preincarnate Christ (cf. Gen. 18:1-2; 19:1; Num. 22:22; Judges 2:1-4; 5:23; Zech. 12:8). . ."

[Billyray]

And could you explain to us what this has to do with Jesus being identified as an Angel in the Biblical text--and how that compares to Jame's statement?

Gen. 16
7 The angel of the LORD found her by a spring of water in the wilderness, the spring on the way to Shur.
8 And he said, “Hagar, servant of Sarai, where have you come from and where are you going?” She said, “I am fleeing from my mistress Sarai.”
9 The angel of the LORD said to her, “Return to your mistress and submit to her.”
10 The angel of the LORD also said to her, “I will surely multiply your offspring so that they cannot be numbered for mul***ude.”
11 And the angel of the LORD said to her, “Behold, you are pregnant and shall bear a son.You shall call his name Ishmael, because the LORD has listened to your affliction.


Who is "The angel of the LORD" spoken about in these verses?

[James Banta]

Gen. 16
7 The angel of the LORD found her by a spring of water in the wilderness, the spring on the way to Shur.
8 And he said, “Hagar, servant of Sarai, where have you come from and where are you going?” She said, “I am fleeing from my mistress Sarai.”
9 The angel of the LORD said to her, “Return to your mistress and submit to her.”
10 The angel of the LORD also said to her, “I will surely multiply your offspring so that they cannot be numbered for mul***ude.”
11 And the angel of the LORD said to her, “Behold, you are pregnant and shall bear a son.You shall call his name Ishmael, because the LORD has listened to your affliction.


Who is "The angel of the LORD" spoken about in these verses?

DB is part of the Boycott. I would love to talk to you about this point of scripture.. Can Angel as used in this p***age mean spirit? After all in Acts 12 when Rhoda reported to believers in Mary the mother of Mark home they said that she must have seen Peter's ANGEL.. I will toss that out as an explainatio0n for the term Angel being used for God.. It is His angel, meaning His Spirit.. And after all God is Spirit.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

DB is part of the Boycott. I would love to talk to you about this point of scripture.. Can Angel as used in this p***age mean spirit? After all in Acts 12 when Rhoda reported to believers in Mary the mother of Mark home they said that she must have seen Peter's ANGEL.. I will toss that out as an explainatio0n for the term Angel being used for God.. It is His angel, meaning His Spirit.. And after all God is Spirit.. IHS jim
I looked at a couple of commentaries to get their take because the term "The angel of the LORD" is interesting in that it seems to be a distinct messenger of God but then later identifies the term with the LORD. For example in the p***age in Genesis 16:7-11 it appears that this is a messenger but then you go to verse 13 which says "She gave this name to the Lord who spoke to her: “You are the God who sees me,” for she said, “I have now seen the One who sees me.”.


Here is a quote from BK commentary
". . .The Angel of the Lord found the maidservant in the desert at a spring ... beside the road to Shur (cf. 25:18) on the way to her homeland, Egypt. This is the first reference in the Old Testament to “the Angel of the LORD” (lit., “the Angel of Yahweh”). This Angel is identified with Yahweh in 16:13, as well as in 22:11-12; 31:11, 13; 48:16; Judges 6:11, 16, 22; 13:22-23; Zechariah 3:1-2. And yet the Angel is distinct from Yahweh (Gen. 24:7; 2 Sam. 24:16; Zech. 1:12). Thus “the Angel of the LORD” may refer to a theophany of the preincarnate Christ (cf. Gen. 18:1-2; 19:1; Num. 22:22; Judges 2:1-4; 5:23; Zech. 12:8). . ."
In a similar way we see this play out in Genesis 32 where we have another Theophany of the pre-incarnate Christ where initially He is not referred to as God but as the p***age develops it does identify him with God.

Genesis 32
24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak.
25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man.
26 Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.” But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.”
27 The man asked him, “What is your name?” “Jacob,” he answered.
28 Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.”
29 Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.”But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?” Then he blessed him there.
30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”


As I think more about it this make sense (the "angel" in Genesis 16 and the "man" in Genesis 32) are manifestations of God to unworthy humans who could not possibly stand in the direct presence of God--yet here we have two examples where they are face to face.



Note in Genesis 32 it says that this was a "man" and in Hosea 12 it identifies him as an "angel".

Genesis 32:24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak.

Hosea 12
2 The Lord has a charge to bring against Judah; he will punish Jacob according to his ways and repay him according to his deeds.
3 In the womb he grasped his brother’s heel; as a man he struggled with God.
4 He struggled with the angel and overcame him; he wept and begged for his favor.

[James Banta]

I looked at a couple of commentaries to get their take because the term "The angel of the LORD" is interesting in that it seems to be a distinct messenger of God but then later identifies the term with the LORD. For example in the p***age in Genesis 16:7-11 it appears that this is a messenger but then you go to verse 13 which says "She gave this name to the Lord who spoke to her: “You are the God who sees me,” for she said, “I have now seen the One who sees me.”.

In a similar way we see this play out in Genesis 32 where we have another Theophany of the pre-incarnate Christ where initially He is not referred to as God but as the p***age develops it does identify him with God.

Genesis 32
24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak.
25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man.
26 Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.” But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.”
27 The man asked him, “What is your name?” “Jacob,” he answered.
28 Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.”
29 Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.”But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?” Then he blessed him there.
30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”


As I think more about it this make sense (the "angel" in Genesis 16 and the "man" in Genesis 32) are manifestations of God to unworthy humans who could not possibly stand in the direct presence of God--yet here we have two examples where they are face to face.

This is a very interesting take on the text.. I am willing to bow to the input from one of our LDS posters here (I don't remember which one it was).. The term Angel, can be Jesus Himself in in the form He held before His incarnation.. I learned a lot from Acts 12 as I read it.. I don't know if any of the LDS are curious enough to come here and read our posts. That would be a shame because they could see that we the members of the body of are capable of learning more about God's word and will take such lessons from what ever source the Holy Spirit in His power decides to use.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

many, many years ago i was in a normal Sunday school Bible cl***.
I think I was in my teens at the time.

We were looking at the different places where the term "Angel" appears in the text and at some point in the cl*** discussion I raised a question/point about what Angels do.

I heard a girl in my c*** tell me that my question pointed out the difference between "Fallen Angels" and "Evil Spirits"
This was the first time that I had heard that there was a difference, and that the terms are talking about two totally different created beings.

I never had a chance to dig into this idea with the cl***....and to this day im not sure if the idea that the two terms are actually talking about two totally different beings or not?

[alanmolstad]

from my point of view, Fallen Angels, Demons, and Evil Spirits, are all just 3 different names for the same thing.

[dberrie2000]

Just what are these beings? Why are they there? What can they do?

What are they? The Bible tell us that they are spiritual beings that were created to minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation (Hebrews 1:7, 13-14). Again we are taught that angels are an entirely different order of being than humans. Human beings do not become angels after they die. Angels will never become, and never were, human beings. God created the angels, just as He created humanity. The Bible nowhere states that angels are created in the image and likeness of God, as humans are (Genesis 1:26).


Genesis 48:16---King James Version (KJV)

16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a mul***ude in the midst of the earth.