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Sir
10-11-2013, 10:43 PM
"Small sins like telling a[n] ugly person how good they look is as serious before a Holy God as murder or adultery." - James Banta

Billyray
10-12-2013, 01:18 AM
"Small sins like telling a[n] ugly person how good they look is as serious before a Holy God as murder or adultery." - James Banta
Are some sins OK in your mind and others are not?

James Banta
10-12-2013, 09:04 AM
Are some sins OK in your mind and others are not?

As much as sir will quote p***ages of James 2 he refuses to believe anything that disagrees with what his LDS teachers have told him. James is clear that "Whosoever keeps the whole Law, yet offends in ONE POINT, is guilty of all".. It doesn't matter what the Bible teaches sir just won't believe this teaching. Even though it is right in front of him he disbelieves that James is making it clear that no one can say they have no sin, and no one can say they are less of a sinner than anyone else.. We are all guilty before God of breaking His whole Law.. Sir is no more or less of a sinner than you or than I.. The trouble is he is blind to the ways of God in this matter. He has his fingers in his ears and his eyes tightly shut to the truth laying right there in front of him.. Sir's hatred for the word of God is written by his own hand belittling this teaching, IHS jim

theway
10-12-2013, 11:30 AM
As much as sir will quote p***ages of James 2 he refuses to believe anything that disagrees with what his LDS teachers have told him. James is clear that "Whosoever keeps the whole Law, yet offends in ONE POINT, is guilty of all".. It doesn't matter what the Bible teaches sir just won't believe this teaching. Even though it is right in front of him he disbelieves that James is making it clear that no one can say they have no sin, and no one can say they are less of a sinner than anyone else.. We are all guilty before God of breaking His whole Law.. Sir is no more or less of a sinner than you or than I.. The trouble is he is blind to the ways of God in this matter. He has his fingers in his ears and his eyes tightly shut to the truth laying right there in front of him.. Sir's hatred for the word of God is written by his own hand belittling this teaching, IHS jim

No James... It's just your constant misunderstanding of the scriptures is what is making your argument faulty here. All sins are not the same!
I will try to keep it as simple as I can in this first post.

First:
Perfection is required for entrance into Heaven.
Psalm 24:3-5
3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord? or who shall stand in his holy place?
4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.
5 He shall receive the blessing from the Lord, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.

Second:
Those who are capable if committing sin, have all sinned, even if it was just one very small sin. Therefore no one will get to Heaven based on their own works.

1 John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Third:
there are different degrees of sin.
1 John 5:16-17 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.

John 19:11 Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above. Therefore he who delivered me over to you has the greater sin.”

Matthew 22:36-40 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

Fourth:
Different degrees of sins require different repentance processes and different lengths of time depending on the Lord's Will for that person. One sin is so serious that they can not be forgiven at all; neither in this life or the world to come.

2 Chronicles 7:14 If my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

John 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth

Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

Matthew 12:31
Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

Fifth:
One can become perfect again and forgiven of by Lord. This is based mostly on the knowledge and truth we have received; but also on the seriousness of the sin, and the repentance processes we must go through.

Billyray
10-12-2013, 02:08 PM
Fifth:
One can become perfect again and forgiven of by Lord. This is based mostly on the knowledge and truth we have received; but also on the seriousness of the sin, and the repentance processes we must go through.
You don't even believe what you yourself have written. You don't believe murderers can be completely forgiven and be exalted. Now do you?

Pa Pa
10-12-2013, 04:01 PM
"Small sins like telling a[n] ugly person how good they look is as serious before a Holy God as murder or adultery." - James BantaHe has done this many times...why is the mystery.

theway
10-12-2013, 05:27 PM
You don't even believe what you yourself have written. You don't believe murderers can be completely forgiven and be exalted. Now do you?
What I believe is immaterial. The Lord states only one sin is unforgivable. I am to forgive EVERYONE, it is up to Him to forgive who he will.
But as I noted, it all depends on one's knowledge, because even that one unforgivable sin is completely based on our level of faith and knowledge. It is impossible to truly deny what we do not have a perfect knowledge of.
Based on the knowledge level demonstrated by Critics here, I don't think any of you have anything to worry about.;)

nrajeffreturns
10-12-2013, 09:49 PM
It really is interesting to see the extremes that Calvinism can take a person's soteriology to. Think, for a minute, of how Judgment Day, Calvinism Style, would go:

God/Jesus/Holy Spirit: "Adolf Hitler, you were responsible for the murder of over 6 million people while on earth. You will spend eternity in hell. Next person, please."

"Fred Johnson, once, at a time when your wife was feeling depressed and unappreciated, you committed the mortal sin of cheering her up by telling her she looked pretty, but she really wasn't that pretty. For that lie, you shall spend eternity in hell with Hitler."

MacG
10-12-2013, 09:59 PM
It really is interesting to see the extremes that Calvinism can take a person's soteriology to. Think, for a minute, of how Judgment Day, Calvinism Style, would go:

God/Jesus/Holy Spirit: "Adolf Hitler, you were responsible for the murder of over 6 million people while on earth. You will spend eternity in hell. Next person, please."

"Fred Johnson, once, at a time when your wife was feeling depressed and unappreciated, you committed the mortal sin of cheering her up by telling her she looked pretty, but she really wasn't that pretty. For that lie, you shall spend eternity in hell with Hitler."

Speaking of fallacious... :)

Billyray
10-12-2013, 10:28 PM
It really is interesting to see the extremes that Calvinism can take a person's soteriology to. Think, for a minute, of how Judgment Day, Calvinism Style, would go:

God/Jesus/Holy Spirit: "Adolf Hitler, you were responsible for the murder of over 6 million people while on earth. You will spend eternity in hell. Next person, please."

"Fred Johnson, once, at a time when your wife was feeling depressed and unappreciated, you committed the mortal sin of cheering her up by telling her she looked pretty, but she really wasn't that pretty. For that lie, you shall spend eternity in hell with Hitler."
Since you follow a works based salvation you believe that salvation is based on your own works/personal righteousness.

Billyray
10-12-2013, 10:29 PM
What I believe is immaterial. T
Then why are you flapping your gums at all on this board since what you believe is immaterial?

theway
10-12-2013, 10:59 PM
It really is interesting to see the extremes that Calvinism can take a person's soteriology to. Think, for a minute, of how Judgment Day, Calvinism Style, would go:

God/Jesus/Holy Spirit: "Adolf Hitler, you were responsible for the murder of over 6 million people while on earth. You will spend eternity in hell. Next person, please."

"Fred Johnson, once, at a time when your wife was feeling depressed and unappreciated, you committed the mortal sin of cheering her up by telling her she looked pretty, but she really wasn't that pretty. For that lie, you shall spend eternity in hell with Hitler."
I always imagined the Calvinist judgment will be more like the clickety clack sound of the spinning of the Salvation Lotto Wheel.
And then as the wheel stops spinning the Lord says "You win!" or "you lose" depending on the luck of the wheel.
Because as we all know The Lord uses no critera whatsoever to decide a persons fate in Calvinism

Billyray
10-12-2013, 11:49 PM
I
And then as the wheel stops spinning the Lord says "You win!" or "you lose" depending on the luck of the wheel.

Really? I thought Calvinists believe that those who place their faith in Christ are saved and those who don't are not.

theway
10-12-2013, 11:52 PM
Then why are you flapping your gums at all on this board since what you believe is immaterial?

LOL... I don't know how you operate your computer, but I use my hands.;)

Billyray
10-13-2013, 12:06 AM
Because as we all know The Lord uses no critera whatsoever to decide a persons fate in Calvinism
What criteria do you believe The Lord should use to determine your fate?

theway
10-13-2013, 10:58 AM
Really? I thought Calvinists believe that those who place their faith in Christ are saved and those who don't are not.

Not quite.

You see in Calvinism it is not YOUR faith, it is the faith that God has to first give to you. Then once God gives you faith, he then regenerates you based on the faith he has given you. After that you are saved because he regenerated you.
Nothing was yours! You can not have faith on your own.

How did God determine who to give faith to??? That is an unknown in Calvinism, because if there was any criteria which is based anyway on what the human did, that means in Cavinism that God did not do it all, and man payed a part in his salvation.

Ergo... Salvation Lotto.

theway
10-13-2013, 11:08 AM
What criteria do you believe The Lord should use to determine your fate?

Rev. 20:12
12. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Billyray
10-13-2013, 01:26 PM
Rev. 20:12
12. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
So you believe in salvation by works? BTW who are the "DEAD"?

James Banta
10-13-2013, 02:22 PM
No James... It's just your constant misunderstanding of the scriptures is what is making your argument faulty here. All sins are not the same!
I will try to keep it as simple as I can in this first post.

First:
Perfection is required for entrance into Heaven.
Psalm 24:3-5
3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord? or who shall stand in his holy place?
4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.
5 He shall receive the blessing from the Lord, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.

Second:
Those who are capable if committing sin, have all sinned, even if it was just one very small sin. Therefore no one will get to Heaven based on their own works.

1 John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Third:
there are different degrees of sin.
1 John 5:16-17 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.

John 19:11 Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above. Therefore he who delivered me over to you has the greater sin.”

Matthew 22:36-40 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

Fourth:
Different degrees of sins require different repentance processes and different lengths of time depending on the Lord's Will for that person. One sin is so serious that they can not be forgiven at all; neither in this life or the world to come.

2 Chronicles 7:14 If my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

John 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth

Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

Matthew 12:31
Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

Fifth:
One can become perfect again and forgiven of by Lord. This is based mostly on the knowledge and truth we have received; but also on the seriousness of the sin, and the repentance processes we must go through.

According to the Law there are sins that lead to death.. You are correct.. Disobedience to a direct command of God leads to death.. God told Joshua that He would no longer be with Israel unless Achan was killed for taking a spoil of Jericho (Joshua 7:12). Theft is not a sin unto death in the Law (Proverbs 6:31).. So what is a sin unto death? That has always been a question. In the OT Adultery was such a sin. In the New Testament Jesus bears our sin as we confess them. And He paid the penalty of even sins that were sins unto death.. Instead sin is now sin and any sin found within us is a sin unto eternal death. We are commanded to be perfect as the Father in heaven is perfect. The Holy Spirit through James has made it clear that who ever commits a sin breaking the Law of God, such a person has become guilty of the whole LAW.. I am not spinning that, read it yourself it's found in James 2:10.. Put it in context all you want.. It fits into the command of Jesus for us to be perfect. It fits into His sinless life, His righteousness that He offers to all of us who may receive it (2 Corinthians 5:21)..

So here is what I think of what you have quoted from the Bible..

First, I agree. We receive the blessing from the Lord, and righteousness from the God of our salvation. See that we receive RIGHTEOUSNESS from God.. Not by our own actions..

Second, I agree. All have sinned..We have all fallen short of His glory.

Third, I agree with the p***ages you have quoted but disagree with your statement that makes it look like sin is something other than a rebellion against God. Remember David committed both adultery and murder, and yet God spoke through the prophet saying that "You will not die" (2 Sam 12:14).. All sin is a rebellion against God. There is always a price to pay sometime a lot, sometimes a little.. I paid a price far less than I deserved..

Forth, While I agree with the p***ages you quoted I disagree with your remarks. God will forgive as it seems right to Him.. To some it is an honest confession. to others it is a season of challenges. To other a lose of all they have.. It is not your place to command what God will require for repentance. All the sins men commit in this world will be forgiven to them.. Jesus paid the total price, but for the sin of ignoring the Holy Spirit and turning away from the grace God offers to us though faith in Jesus, there is no forgiveness.. So Murder, Adultery, stealing. disrespect of parents, coveting, all these things are forgiven.. Only turning away from faith in God (Jesus). For that spiritual sin there is no forgiveness. You are mixing apples and oranges again..

Fifth, We can be forgiven, God has told us "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." (Isaiah 1:18). It is the promise of God. It is not based on any LDS teaching alone. The Holy Spirit has told us that "whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all" (James 2:10).. While that doesn't tell us that one sin is greater or less serious than another it does tell us that if we sin at all we are guilty of breaking the whole law.. So telling a lie, while it is not a sin unto death, still makes a person just as guilty before God as murder, which is a sin unto death.. You can deny that but in so doing you deny the same context that teaches that faith without works is dead.. If verse 10 is false then verses 17, 20, and 26 are also false.. I don't believe that I believe that faith in manifest in our works. But mormonism has no legs to stand on as I teach that is ONLY by God's grace through faith that He provides by which we are saved and NOT OF WORKS..

Is there some set process of repentance you can show me in the Bible? The Bible does tell us to repent does it not? And yet there is no set procedure for repentance? Did David go through some set process to repent of murder? Did Cane go through a repentance process? Neither of those men had to suffer death for the sin of murder. Did Judah go though some repentance process for committing adultery with Tamar his own daughter in law?(Genesis 38:24).. Just where in the Bible are you taught to accuse anyone in the Bible of not being repentant of such sins if you disagree with the process of repentance is used? Your stanch one way doctrine of repentance is very Pharisaical.. IHS jim

James Banta
10-13-2013, 02:37 PM
What I believe is immaterial. The Lord states only one sin is unforgivable. I am to forgive EVERYONE, it is up to Him to forgive who he will.
But as I noted, it all depends on one's knowledge, because even that one unforgivable sin is completely based on our level of faith and knowledge. It is impossible to truly deny what we do not have a perfect knowledge of.
Based on the knowledge level demonstrated by Critics here, I don't think any of you have anything to worry about.;)

God's example of forgiveness it to forget the crime completely. In Hebrews 8:12, again in chapter 10 verse 17, in Jeremiah 31:34, and in Isaiah 43:25, God tell us that He will not remember our sins. But do theway, and sir follow God in this example? NO!!! Even as long as 12 years after I sinned and repented they remember and spread it around like ****ering a slice of bread only they ****er the minds of others with filth.. I have said this before, it is Satan called the accuser of the brother.. You are in His employ in accusing those whom God has promised to forgive and not even remember those sins.. This is your shame, no longer is it mine.. IHS jim

James Banta
10-13-2013, 02:41 PM
He has done this many times...why is the mystery.

You above all the LDS here should know the Bible James 2:10 holds that doctrine up to be God's word being entirely biblical.. You may not believe that to be scripture. I am not sure that you believe any of the Bible to be scripture.. I don't even think you believe LDS scripture to be the word of God.. Just what is your anchor? You seem to be adrift.. IHS jim

Pa Pa
10-13-2013, 07:57 PM
You above all the LDS here should know the Bible James 2:10 holds that doctrine up to be God's word being entirely biblical.. You may not believe that to be scripture. I am not sure that you believe any of the Bible to be scripture.. I don't even think you believe LDS scripture to be the word of God.. Just what is your anchor? You seem to be adrift.. IHS jim
I believe all the Bible is Biblical and you are wrong if you think I do not believe LDS Scripture.

James Banta
10-14-2013, 09:20 AM
I believe all the Bible is Biblical and you are wrong if you think I do not believe LDS Scripture.

If that is the case then you should be one of the LDS here that believes that "If we fail to meet all the requirements of God's commandments we are guilty of failing to keep any of those commandments" (James 2:10). Not withstanding ant LDS scriptures the Bible is the most important of all scripture. Elder McConkie said of the Bible "the Bible is the book of books; that it is a volume of holy scripture; that it contains the mind and will and voice of the Lord to all men on earth; and that it has had a greater effect on the civilization of the world, up to this time, than any other book ever written." (lds.org/manual/teaching-seminary-preservice-readings-religion-370-471-and-475/the-bible-a-sealed-book?lang=eng&query=the+Bible+is+the+central+book+of+faith+to+th e+LDS).

With that level of respect to the leadership of the Church, the Bible must be held in reverence by the membership. If it is only true if the translation is correct then please show me that the translation of James 2:10 is wrong and show me what it should say.. If you find no error I hold you to your conviction that you believe the Bible and therefore we we keep the whole Law but offend it is only one point (no matter how small the failure) we are guilty before God of the whole..

I know you were having trouble with church if that has p***ed I am happy for you. If you believe I hold anger for you, or even a small level of resentment you would be incorrect. You have have always come across to me as the most knowledgeable, and reasonable of all the LDS posters here.. I am sorry you find me to be so objectionable.. I have often thought there was a organized effort to single me out to be ignored here.. The only reason I can figure out for that level of treatment is because I used scripture and statements from both historic and modern LDS sources to point out problem in LDS scripture and beliefs. I have thanked God for that treatment because it seems to be enough to really get someone concerned about others hearing truth.. Again Papa I am glad you have found peace with your former doubts.. IHS jim

MacG
10-14-2013, 11:51 AM
Rev. 20:12
12. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Do check the context of your proof text.

Billyray
10-14-2013, 01:38 PM
Not quite.

You see in Calvinism it is not YOUR faith, it is the faith that God has to first give to you.

Really? A person who has faith doesn't really have faith?


Then once God gives you faith, he then regenerates you based on the faith he has given you. After that you are saved because he regenerated you.

I don't think you quite have a grasp of what Calvinists believe. Does faith really come before regeneration according to Calvinism?

theway
10-14-2013, 04:49 PM
Really? A person who has faith doesn't really have faith?
Not any faith developed on their own.
According to the Calvinist/Faith-Alone heretics over on CARM, faith first came from God, and once a person is given that faith they are regenerated, which means they are saved.
I have asked dozens of times whether one can be regenerated and not saved? or if one can be saved and not have faith?
I have yet to get an answer.
In any case, the important point is that to a Calvinist, God does it all... Faith, Regeneration, Salvation.
Therefore there is nothing a person does on his own, God gives you all, and does it all for you based on no criteria whatsoever, because if God did base Salvation/Regeneration/Faith on anything required by a human, then in their minds it becomes a works-based theology.
If there is no criteria which God uses to determine which one He saves/gives faith to/regenerates then all you are judged by is a luck of the spin on the Salvation Lotto Wheel.


I don't think you quite have a grasp of what Calvinists believe.
No!!! I don't! Nobody does! That is the whole point.
It is so contradictory and paradoxical that it is impossible to make sense out of the Faith Alone nonsense.
However when people like me who dares to say that "The King has no clothes" I am told that it is because I am not fitting of my station and can not understand it because I am unregenerated, unsaved, and faithless.

However I boldly proclaim again...

THE KING HAS NO CLOTHES ON!



Does faith really come before regeneration according to Calvinism?
Yes... This is the exact same game they play over at CARM. They want to argue a unending paradox as to "which came first, the chicken or the egg"?

So I'll ask the same unanswered question I ask them...

Can there be a regenerated person who is not saved?
Can there be a saved person who does not have faith?
Can there be a person who has faith who is not saved or regenerated?

If your answers are no, then it doesn't matter a hill-of-beans which came first.

Billyray
10-14-2013, 06:29 PM
Not any faith developed on their own.

So which is it? Does a person who has faith according to Calvinism have faith or not?


According to the Calvinist/Faith-Alone heretics over on CARM, faith first came from God, and once a person is given that faith they are regenerated, which means they are saved.

Faith does not come first. Here is your homework--google Ordo Salutis and see what comes first according to Calvinism. In fact I will spoon feed you since after all of this time you still don't have your facts straight. Here is a link that gives you the order and it even numbers it for you.

http://www.monergism.com/directory/link_category/Ordo-Salutis/


I have asked dozens of times whether one can be regenerated and not saved?
or if one can be saved and not have faith?
I have yet to get an answer.
Really? Nobody has given you an answer? I find that hard to believe.

I will give you an answer that you so desperately seem to be seeking. Those who are saved are those who place their faith in Christ for salvation. One cannot be saved without faith. Regeneration precedes faith which you should have learned by the link that I provided above. Those who are not regenerated (born again) will by their own choice reject Christ and because they reject Christ and do not place their faith in Him they will not be saved. They are not forced to reject Him--they do this by their own choice. If they would place their faith in Him they would be saved.

Billyray
10-14-2013, 06:39 PM
Does faith really come before regeneration according to Calvinism?
Yes... This is the exact same game they play over at CARM. They want to argue a unending paradox as to "which came first, the chicken or the egg"?

It is not a paradox at all and the answers are clearly available if you really wanted to know, but I suspect that you don't really want to know about Calvinism, rather you want to try and discredit something that you don't seem to have a clue about. Here is the link again and the order is clearly identified--it is even numbered for you.

http://www.monergism.com/directory/link_category/Ordo-Salutis/

Pa Pa
10-14-2013, 06:47 PM
"Small sins like telling a[n] ugly person how good they look is as serious before a Holy God as murder or adultery." - James Banta
This shows a lack of understanding of a loving God and an attempt to make horrible sins trivial. I am sure a murderer or someone who commits adultery would hope so, but by do so would stunt their ability to take responsibility and repent.

Billyray
10-14-2013, 07:00 PM
This shows a lack of understanding of a loving God and an attempt to make horrible sins trivial.

Horrible sins are not trivial--nor are "small" sins trivial. Mormons seem to trivialize small sins and give a rank order of different sins but all sin is an offense to God.

nrajeffreturns
10-14-2013, 08:02 PM
Speaking of fallacious... :)

What fallacy do you think you see? If no sin is really worse than another because all sins are equal in severity, then the scenario I described is accurate.

Pa Pa
10-15-2013, 07:58 AM
Horrible sins are not trivial--nor are "small" sins trivial. Mormons seem to trivialize small sins and give a rank order of different sins but all sin is an offense to God.We do not trivialize small sins, we just have common sense and know the difference between the two. My bio-father had a wife and three children, married a woman he was having an affair with whom he got pregnant...while married to my mother. We his first family ended up homeless when he stole money for house payments to flee the State to avoid jail for bigamy. That is why when my mother remarried after she divorced, my step father adopted myself, brother and sister, my last name is Lee and not Nation. My minster father who divorced his first wife because she committed alultury and would not reconcile was denied the pulpit in the Baptist Church in which he was ordained...the very Church his family established in 1840. So if God sees telling a woman a dress does not make her look fat, if someone thought so as the same as what my bio-father did or what the Church did to my adopted father...to hell with him.

James Banta
10-15-2013, 08:38 AM
We do not trivialize small sins, we just have common sense and know the difference between the two. My bio-father had a wife and three children, married a woman he was having an affair with whom he got pregnant...while married to my mother. We his first family ended up homeless when he stole money for house payments to flee the State to avoid jail for bigamy. That is why when my mother remarried after she divorced, my step father adopted myself, brother and sister, my last name is Lee and not Nation. My minster father who divorced his first wife because she committed alultury and would not reconcile was denied the pulpit in the
Baptist Church in which he was ordained...the very Church his family established in 1840. So it God sees telling a woman a dress does not make her look fat, if someone thought so as the same as what my bio-father did or what the Church did to my adopted father...to hell with him.

Sounds like your bio-father was not Christian at all.. But what is a small sin? All sin is rebellion against God. Yes your family was treated terribly treated by a horrible man. Is his rebellion more serious before a holy God than anyone "small sins"? No.. What difference how much excrement we smear on ourselves. Just a little make us totally unclean, a lot again makes us unclean.. Look at three gl***es of clean water. One you keep clean the second you add one small drop of filth, to the third you one add a full tablespoon of filth.. Which one would you drink? The first of course. Even the one with a "small" amount of filth would cause you to reject it.. Those you would see a "small sins" are just as serious to God as those you would see as more serious sins, such as those your bio-father committed..

You believe the BofM. Even there the "small sin" of lying, something we all have done and continue to do, has serious consequences. Remember what it teaches about the results of lying?

2 Nephi 9:34
Wo unto the liar, for he shall be thrust down to hell.

Ask yourself. What is a liar? Isn't a liar a person who has lied? How many times must a person lie to become a liar? 100, 50, 10, or 1? Even in LDS scripture James 2:10 is proven to be the truth.. IHS jim

Pa Pa
10-15-2013, 09:41 AM
Sounds like your bio-father was not Christian at all..

IHS jim
He grew up in a very good Christian home, so it was a Calvinist home. His father we called Pa Pa which is why my grandchildren call me Pa Pa. My Pa Pa when we lived close to him would come over apologizing all the time. Even when my bio-father lived at home we read out loud the Bible almost every night. Some of the few times we went to his home after my parents divorced we did the same thing. He finally called my mother many years later to apologize, but had no desire to apologize to his three children. Of course at that time he called from Texas, because if he came back to Georgia he would be arrested for not paying child support. He called to tell my mother he was saved, but felt no need to make res***ution for anything. Tell me Jim, you just say you are sorry to God and he requires nothing of you; right? I had to forgive him because God commands it and warns that if I did not in me lies the greater sin...in short God does require us to do his will to be "saved". If you think otherwise, you are lying to others and yourself. True we may fall short, but if we are moving forward and seeking to do his will, his atonement will fill the gaps. If we think "well I said I'm sorry to God, now I can do as I like...you are lost. Jim; "Come unto Christ and be perfected in him". Please! You were not chosen from the beginning while others were ****ed...all can choose to come unto him. As Christ said, "I was lifted up that I might draw ALL men unto me".

theway
10-15-2013, 09:55 AM
Horrible sins are not trivial--nor are "small" sins trivial. Mormons seem to trivialize small sins and give a rank order of different sins but all sin is an offense to God.YOU are the one who is trivializing large sins.

For instance, under your Calvinist/Cheap Grace beliefs, a person can be a saved Christian even if two or three times a year he might of spoken an unkind word to someone; just as much as a person can be a saved Christian who rapes and murders two or three times a year.
It is religions like the LDS which treat every unrepented sin as needing to be dealt with.
We just believe different sin are more serious than others. And as I have shown, the Bible points this out quite clearly.

Pa Pa
10-15-2013, 10:02 AM
YOU are the one who is trivializing large sins.

For instance, under your Calvinist/Cheap Grace beliefs, a person can be a saved Christian even if two or three times a year he might of spoken an unkind word to someone; just as much as a person can be a saved Christian who rapes and murders two or three times a year.
It is religions like the LDS which treat every unrepented sin as needing to be dealt with.
We just believe different sin are more serious than others. And as I have shown, the Bible points this out quite clearly.Paul lists the sins that will keep people out of the "Kingdom of heaven"...believing otherwise this requires quoting Paul in single quotes out of context.

Billyray
10-15-2013, 10:22 AM
YOU are the one who is trivializing large sins.

Not at all. All sin is an offense to God.


For instance, under your Calvinist/Cheap Grace beliefs, a person can be a saved Christian even if two or three times a year he might of spoken an unkind word to someone; just as much as a person can be a
Someone who is truly born again will not "rapes and murders two or three times a year". So this is a straw man argument.

James Banta
10-15-2013, 10:47 AM
He grew up in a very good Christian home, so it was a Calvinist home. His father we called Pa Pa which is why my grandchildren call me Pa Pa. My Pa Pa when we lived close to him would come over apologizing all the time. Even when my bio-father lived at home we read out loud the Bible almost every night. Some of the few times we went to his home after my parents divorced we did the same thing. He finally called my mother many years later to apologize, but had no desire to apologize to his three children. Of course at that time he called from Texas, because if he came back to Georgia he would be arrested for not paying child support. He called to tell my mother he was saved, but felt no need to make res***ution for anything. Tell me Jim, you just say you are sorry to God and he requires nothing of you; right? I had to forgive him because God commands it and warns that if I did not in me lies the greater sin...in short God does require us to do his will to be "saved". If you think otherwise, you are lying to others and yourself. True we may fall short, but if we are moving forward and seeking to do his will, his atonement will fill the gaps. If we think "well I said I'm sorry to God, now I can do as I like...you are lost. Jim; "Come unto Christ and be perfected in him". Please! You were not chosen from the beginning while others were ****ed...all can choose to come unto him. As Christ said, "I was lifted up that I might draw ALL men unto me".

I don't see the sacrificial death of Jesus on the cross as nothing.. That is a MAJOR work of redemption.. I hear your anger that you hold for your father and what he did is not justifiable. What I did is not justifiable. Jesus is in the business of justifying the unjustifiable. Can God do that from your bio-father, YES.. Has He done so.. I really don't know.. That is because I don't know you bio-father or his state of mind.. Tell me what could I have done to make my sin right to anyone.. I didn't lie about it, I confessed and turned to Jesus.. I have forsaken such sins through His power. I don't blame anyone but the one responsible.. That was me. Tell me what can I do? NOTHING! It all had to be done by God.. Only He had the power to fix my life and my relationships. It took time but it is done.. Papa I sinned and I hate that. I have heard LDS say that "Oh you can say you are sorry and then do what ever you want".. Papa I can't do what I want.. I want to live a sinless life. I fail all the time.. I don't want to sin and yet sin still lives in my flesh (Romans 7:17-19). Unlike the limits you feel you MUST put on God, I trust Him that He knows all things from the beginning to the end.. That includes knowledge of all who will come to Him by and through their own will.. He was lifted up to draw all men to Him. He also knew that many would reject His provision for salvation. IHS jim

Billyray
10-15-2013, 11:41 AM
We just believe different sin are more serious than others.
And you believe that some sins such as murder cannot be forgiven which means that the blood of Christ is insufficient to cover these sins. Right?

theway
10-15-2013, 12:05 PM
Not at all. All sin is an offense to God.

Someone who is truly born again will not "rapes and murders two or three times a year". So this is a straw man argument.
Wait a minute... I have heard your type say that one can be a saved Christian and still do things like lie and run their car past the speed limits. If you believe all sin is on the same level then that means that someone can rape and murder and still be a saved Christian.

This is what I meant when I said that the vast majority of "Faith Aloners" preach faith alone, but almost none of them actually believe in it.

theway
10-15-2013, 12:07 PM
And you believe that some sins such as murder cannot be forgiven which means that the blood of Christ is insufficient to cover these sins. Right?still trying to get people to play on your merry-go-round rides I see. Sorry but I already answered this.

theway
10-15-2013, 12:09 PM
Paul lists the sins that will keep people out of the "Kingdom of heaven"...believing otherwise this requires quoting Paul in single quotes out of context.The bottom line is that ANY unrepented of sin will keep you out if Heaven.

MacG
10-15-2013, 12:18 PM
What fallacy do you think you see? If no sin is really worse than another because all sins are equal in severity, then the scenario I described is accurate.


"Fred Johnson, once, at a time when your wife was feeling depressed and unappreciated, you committed the mortal sin of cheering her up by telling her she looked pretty, but she really wasn't that pretty. For that lie, you shall spend eternity in hell with Hitler."

It is fallacious because Fred has already broken the law way before this scenario. How do I know this? Fred was a teenager before he got married. I do not know any teens that have not sinned but if that was not enough, Fred then being married had probably heard one of these questions: "Do you think she is pretty?" "Do you like my new perfume?" "Do these pants make my but look big?" "What do you think of my mother?" "don't you just love what I've done with your den/shop?" Yeah I am sure that he sinned way before this 'ugly' comment. The only way it sends him to hell is for those who believe in works based salvation, like Father Guido Sarducchi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AKvRvL5r3A). If it was the one sin on the balance of works that was not countered and tipped the scales, yeah, then sure he would then go to hell - for those who believe that works balances out sins. To be sure this is not what I believe, nor what Jim believes that the scripture teaches and you know this. Which is why I said it is fallacious. It was clear to me that he was demonstrating the absurd by being absurd. You have been here long enough you ought to have known better than to use it as a straw-man.

Now as far as all sins being equal there are two facets to this: qualitative and quanti tative. Jesus said he who stumbles at one point of the law is guilty of breaking all of it. Like a single log bridge over a crevas se - everyone's log breaks at some point before reaching the other side. This is the qualitative, think qualified/disqualified. This leaves quanti tative, think sum total, Pol Pot, Amin, Stalin, Columbus, you and me. Certainly we have not done the things as those nefarious individuals but our log snapped under our own weight and we cannot get to the other side no matter how hard we try (yes even with a wing suit (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWfph3iNC-k)), what does it matter what 'they' have done? , for all are in a free fall and ought to be concerned first with our own fate (taking the log out of our own eye) lest we become like the guy driving along gawking at the wreck alongside the road and rear-ends the next stopped car.

MacG
10-15-2013, 12:22 PM
The bottom line is that ANY unrepented of sin will keep you out if Heaven.

Then can anyone get in?

theway
10-15-2013, 12:26 PM
Then can anyone get in?
Sure... I thought the solution was self explanatory in my first statement... You must first REPENT.
However that is merely the first step... Salvation is a process, not an event.

nrajeffreturns
10-15-2013, 12:27 PM
Not at all. All sin is an offense to God.
But that is not in dispute. The issue being debated is whether ALL sins offend God EQUALLY, or whether some sins offend Him more than other sins do.

If you really think that telling one's wife she's pretty offends God as much as genocide does, then (congratulations, you might be a Calvinist)
THAT is what needs to be discussed.

nrajeffreturns
10-15-2013, 12:29 PM
And you believe that some sins such as murder cannot be forgiven which means that the blood of Christ is insufficient to cover these sins. Right?

Do you believe that the blood of Christ is sufficient to cover the sins Satan has committed and continues to commit?

nrajeffreturns
10-15-2013, 12:42 PM
A major problem with Calvinism's soteriology is the idea that if Fred Johnson and Jeffrey Dahmer each committed only one sin--Fred tells his wife one time that she's pretty, and Dahmer murders only one teen-aged boy--that God would send both of them to the same hell, with the same torture, for the same amount of time.

There's no way God is that unfair.

theway
10-15-2013, 12:44 PM
But that is not in dispute. The issue being debated is whether ALL sins offend God EQUALLY, or whether some sins offend Him more than other sins do.

If you really think that telling one's wife she's pretty offends God as much as genocide does, then (congratulations, you might be a Calvinist)
THAT is what needs to be discussed.This is merely Billy's MO and how he creates his merry-go-round rides.
He'll conflate two separate arguments at the same time. Then when you catch him on one, he'll simply jump to the other argument and pretend that's what the argument was really about all along.

This is a perfect example of degrees of sins, God says he would rather you be hot or cold, because being lukewarm is worse. Billyray takes no stand on anything, and sits around in the middle trying to argue both sides at the same time.

RealFakeHair
10-15-2013, 12:51 PM
A major problem with Calvinism's soteriology is the idea that if Fred Johnson and Jeffrey Dahmer each committed only one sin--Fred tells his wife one time that she's pretty, and Dahmer murders only one teen-aged boy--that God would send both of them to the same hell, with the same torture, for the same amount of time.

There's no way God is that unfair.

I was invited by Jeffrey Dahmer for dinner, but I lost my appe***e when I saw what was on the menu.
I saw Fred's wife and for me is would do. Now as for God being unfair, that is not for us to judge.
I just hope God of the Holy Bible has a sense of humor.

MacG
10-15-2013, 02:02 PM
Sure... I thought the solution was self explanatory in my first statement... You must first REPENT.
However that is merely the first step... Salvation is a process, not an event.

I think what I was getting at in my pithiness was there are people who will die in unrepentant sin due to the nature of their death, e.g. the guy driving by a wreck inwardly gloating about the stoop id driver got what he deserved just before he crashes to his own death, the self murderer, the scenarios for this circumstance are legion. I think is is a good chance I will die with some sin unconfessed - some sin that I don't know about.

MacG
10-15-2013, 02:08 PM
A major problem with Calvinism's soteriology is the idea that if Fred Johnson and Jeffrey Dahmer each committed only one sin--Fred tells his wife one time that she's pretty, and Dahmer murders only one teen-aged boy--that God would send both of them to the same hell, with the same torture, for the same amount of time.

There's no way God is that unfair.

All Adam did was take a bite of a piece of fruit at his super hot wife's request. How unfair is that?

It is a shame when that log breaks. Who you gonna call?

RealFakeHair
10-15-2013, 02:10 PM
I think what I was getting at in my pithiness was there are people who will die in unrepentant sin due to the nature of their death, e.g. the guy driving by a wreck inwardly gloating about the stoop id driver got what he deserved just before he crashes to his own death, the self murderer, the scenarios for this circumstance are legion. I think is is a good chance I will die with some sin unconfessed - some sin that I don't know about.

In my case it will most likely be (sins), and not sin. This is something LDSinc. and most other work based religions will never understand. You can never keep up with the past sins the present sins, or future sins. We are human and while in the flesh we are sinners.
There are only two kinds of sinners, saved ones and lost ones. It really is just that simple. 1Cr 1:27.

Pa Pa
10-15-2013, 02:53 PM
The bottom line is that ANY unrepented of sin will keep you out if Heaven.
Paul did not mention heaven but the Kingdom of Heaven", very different place.To the simple minded God is so devoid of imagination he can only come up with one reward and one punishment. To those in the cult of Calvinism, he decided "just cause" to save some. It is called limited atonement...those who believe in it will be the ones who will find themselves limited. But God the Father will do the best he can for his wayward children unless they are hellbent on hell. Sadly those who follow the murderer Calvin (look it up) will suffer his fate.

One only need one of the most ardent defenders of Calvinism in my sig line to understand them.

nrajeffreturns
10-15-2013, 03:29 PM
All Adam did was take a bite of a piece of fruit at his super hot wife's request. How unfair is that?
That depends on what his punishment really ended up being. I don't believe his "sin" resulted in him ending up being tortured forever in hell.

Billyray
10-15-2013, 03:33 PM
Wait a minute... I have heard your type say that one can be a saved Christian and still do things like lie and run their car past the speed limits. If you believe all sin is on the same level then that means that someone can rape and murder and still be a saved Christian.

This is what I meant when I said that the vast majority of "Faith Aloners" preach faith alone, but almost none of them actually believe in it.
Everyone sins but those who are truly born again do not make a practice of sin like the straw man argument that you set up when you said . . ."rapes and murders two or three times a year".

Billyray
10-15-2013, 03:35 PM
still trying to get people to play on your merry-go-round rides I see. Sorry but I already answered this.
Here is my statement and question for you again perhaps you can answer it for me this time rather that the obvious dodge. Or if you felt you did address this please point me to the post that you are referring to.

And you believe that some sins such as murder cannot be forgiven which means that the blood of Christ is insufficient to cover these sins. Right?

Billyray
10-15-2013, 03:36 PM
The bottom line is that ANY unrepented of sin will keep you out if Heaven.
So obeying ALL of the commandments ALL of the time is the standard for entering heaven?

Billyray
10-15-2013, 03:38 PM
.. Salvation is a process, not an event.
Can you tell me the exact steps involved in that "process" and when that "process" is complete?

theway
10-15-2013, 04:43 PM
So obeying ALL of the commandments ALL of the time is the standard for entering heaven?That is only half of it.

Billyray
10-15-2013, 04:56 PM
That is only half of it.

So the first half is obeying ALL of the commandments ALL of the time. What is the other half that is required to enter heaven besides living a perfect life?

theway
10-15-2013, 07:26 PM
So the first half is obeying ALL of the commandments ALL of the time. What is the other half that is required to enter heaven besides living a perfect life?
Billy, Billy, Billy... How can you pretend to school us wee Mormons when you do not even understand the basics of the Bible.
Psalm 24:3-4
3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord? or who shall stand in his holy place?
4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.

Having clean hands by obeying the commandments until you can overcome the physical, belongs to the gospel of repentance, however we are not to live our lives stuck in a repentance cycle. We are to move on to the gospel of perfection, which means changing our hearts to the point where it isn't even in our nature anymore to sin. This is what it means to have a pure heart.

James Banta
10-15-2013, 08:46 PM
Billy, Billy, Billy... How can you pretend to school us wee Mormons when you do not even understand the basics of the Bible.
Psalm 24:3-4
3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord? or who shall stand in his holy place?
4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.

Having clean hands by obeying the commandments until you can overcome the physical, belongs to the gospel of repentance, however we are not to live our lives stuck in a repentance cycle. We are to move on to the gospel of perfection, which means changing our hearts to the point where it isn't even in our nature anymore to sin. This is what it means to have a pure heart.

This is the most SELF RIGHTEOUS post I have ever seen posted on any forum. God made Jesus, he who knew no sin, to become sin for us so that we can be MADE to be the righteousness of God in Him (2 Corinthians 5:21).. When God gives us the righteousness of Jesus we have clean hands and a pure heart.. We can then stand in His holy place, but only if we have been transformed into the image of the Son (Romans 8:29).. Even Joseph Smith was able to understand that our resurrection and salvation are the work of God and not of ourselves (Moses 1:39), but still you come here and say we can sanctify ourselves.. You flat amaze me with your self righteousness in this last post.. IHS jim

theway
10-15-2013, 09:27 PM
This is the most SELF RIGHTEOUS post I have ever seen posted on any forum. God made Jesus, he who knew no sin, to become sin for us so that we can be MADE to be the righteousness of God in Him (2 Corinthians 5:21).. When God gives us the righteousness of Jesus we have clean hands and a pure heart.. We can then stand in His holy place, but only if we have been transformed into the image of the Son (Romans 8:29).. Even Joseph Smith was able to understand that our resurrection and salvation are the work of God and not of ourselves (Moses 1:39), but still you come here and say we can sanctify ourselves.. You flat amaze me with your self righteousness in this last post.. IHS jim
Pure silliness. Do you have clean hands? in other words, do you no longer sin? Do you have a pure heart, in other words are all your thoughts pure?
If not, them you are advocating for an unlimited, sin all you want, credit card where Christ pays for everything you have done, everything you are thinking about doing, and everything you will do in the future. This is what a famous Christian called "Cheap Grace" it is theology right out of hell. Luckily it is still only held by a very small minority of Christians.

James... I get that you want the bad feelings for what you have done to go away without any effort on your part, but that will never happen, and all you will end up doing is repeating your failings because you never dealt with them the first time.
This time however you will be in a worse place when it happens again.

dberrie2000
10-16-2013, 05:44 AM
Since you follow a works based salvation you believe that salvation is based on your own works/personal righteousness.

Are you referring to this "works based salvation"?


John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)


28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

dberrie2000
10-16-2013, 05:51 AM
This is the most SELF RIGHTEOUS post I have ever seen posted on any forum. God made Jesus, he who knew no sin, to become sin for us so that we can be MADE to be the righteousness of God in Him (2 Corinthians 5:21).. When God gives us the righteousness of Jesus we have clean hands and a pure heart.. We can then stand in His holy place, but only if we have been transformed into the image of the Son (Romans 8:29).. Even Joseph Smith was able to understand that our resurrection and salvation are the work of God and not of ourselves (Moses 1:39),

Jim--the Declaration of Independence and the Cons***ution formed the work of freedom and independence for the USA--but that does not mean we will remain free if we don't obey the law.

That God died for all mankind formed the basis for our salvation--but eternal life does not go to the disobedient--those who refuse to obey the Gospel of Jesus Christ. All will be judged according to their works--and that for His grace unto life or ****ation.

dberrie2000
10-16-2013, 05:54 AM
Can you tell me the exact steps involved in that "process" and when that "process" is complete?


Billyray--among the first steps we are commanded to do is this one:


Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Do you believe that is true?

Billyray
10-16-2013, 09:24 AM
Billyray--among the first steps we are commanded to do is this one:


Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Do you believe that is true?
So the process for LDS exaltation/salvation is

1. Repent
2. Be baptized

What else?

Billyray
10-16-2013, 09:29 AM
All will be judged according to their works--and that for His grace unto life or ****ation.

So works are the basis for LDS exaltation?

Billyray
10-16-2013, 09:32 AM
Are you referring to this "works based salvation"?


John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)


28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

So would you say that Mormonism is a works based religion where exaltation is based on your works/personal righteousness?

Billyray
10-16-2013, 09:44 AM
Having clean hands by obeying the commandments until you can overcome the physical, belongs to the gospel of repentance, however we are not to live our lives stuck in a repentance cycle. We are to move on to the gospel of perfection, which means changing our hearts to the point where it isn't even in our nature anymore to sin. This is what it means to have a pure heart.
But obeying ALL of the commandments ALL of the time was just the first half according to you. What is the other half that is required to enter heaven besides living a perfect life?

dberrie2000
10-16-2013, 11:28 AM
Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Billyray--among the first steps we are commanded to do is this one:


Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Do you believe that is true?


So the process for LDS exaltation/salvation is

1. Repent
2. Be baptized

What else?

Billyray--you can read the Bible for yourself. My point is--if Acts2:38 is true--then the faith alone theology is false.

dberrie2000
10-16-2013, 11:32 AM
Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Are you referring to this "works based salvation"?

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.



So would you say that Mormonism is a works based religion where exaltation is based on your works/personal righteousness?

First--do you believe the above scripture is works-based?

Billyray
10-16-2013, 12:15 PM
First--do you believe the above scripture is works-based?
Not at all.

Now I see that you didn't answer my question. So would you say that Mormonism is a works based religion where exaltation is based on your works/personal righteousness?

RealFakeHair
10-16-2013, 12:21 PM
Not at all.
Originally Posted by dberrie2000
First--do you believe the above scripture is works-based?


Now I see that you didn't answer my question. So would you say that Mormonism is a works based religion where exaltation is based on your works/personal righteousness?

I am holding my breath here!

James Banta
10-16-2013, 02:55 PM
[theway;148347]Pure silliness. Do you have clean hands? in other words, do you no longer sin? Do you have a pure heart, in other words are all your thoughts pure?

What does the p***age I quoted (2 Corinthians 5:21) say about those questions? Does it say that God made Jesus to become sin for sinners that those sinners that believe in Him can become the righteousness of God in Him? Yes in the righteousness of Jesus, a righteousness that isn't by works but by faith. Because of this I am totally clean before God.. That isn't self righteous but a righteousness dependent on God to supply.. But to say that His righteousness in not sufficient is to say that His righteousness is nothing more than sin.. I reject that, I reject your insistence that the word of God is silliness..


If not, them you are advocating for an unlimited, sin all you want, credit card where Christ pays for everything you have done, everything you are thinking about doing, and everything you will do in the future. This is what a famous Christian called "Cheap Grace" it is theology right out of hell. Luckily it is still only held by a very small minority of Christians.

I am advocating nothing I am telling you what God did for me and all believers in Jesus on the cross.. He became sin in our place as the Father laid all our sin on Him.. Is this cheep grace? Not at all because as Jesus took our sin He recreated us a new creation.. We were born the first time physically and born again Spiritually (John 3:6).. Because of that I, nor any other believer, have ever sinned as much as we want. We all sin much more than we want.. Paul said he did the evil that he would not do, and he didn't do the good that he would do (Romans7:19).. If you still think of sin as something you want to do but resist though your own will then you are NOT Born of God.. A child of God doesn't want to sin at all.


James... I get that you want the bad feelings for what you have done to go away without any effort on your part, but that will never happen, and all you will end up doing is repeating your failings because you never dealt with them the first time. This time however you will be in a worse place when it happens again.

So again you deny the scripture. God told us said that:

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

It is a matter of trusting (having faith in God) That this is His truth. If it is then why would you question the purity of what God has cleansed. Peter did this in receiving His vision that the Gentiles would be brought into the family of GOD..

Acts 10:15
And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

The only thing you can say to my repentance is to deny that I confessed my sin to the one true and living God.. But to do that you will have to AGAIN call the God who says that He is the ONLY true God, the God that has been God from everlasting and will continue to be the only true God to everlasting, a liar.. I can't say that He is one of three Gods for this world, or that an infinite number of other creative Gods exist somewhere in the infinity of the universe. Make mormonism fit into the Bible and then you might have the ability to make such charges as you have against me stick.. Until then I will lean on the promises of God in faith and put down the charges of Satan though your mouth that I don't deserve the grace of God.. IHS jim


Acts 10:15
And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

dberrie2000
10-16-2013, 04:48 PM
Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Are you referring to this "works based salvation"?

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.


Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---So would you say that Mormonism is a works based religion where exaltation is based on your works/personal righteousness?


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---First--do you believe the above scripture is works-based?


Not at all. Now I see that you didn't answer my question. So would you say that Mormonism is a works based religion...

According to your beliefs--if those who are judged according to their works in John5:28-29--and that for life or ****ation--is not a works-based religion--then neither is LDS theology works-based. The LDS believe what Christ taught--that all mankind will be judged according to works--and that for His grace unto life or ****ation.


where exaltation is based on your works/personal righteousness?

Eternal life is based on His grace. His grace unto life is based on our obedience to Jesus Christ.


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Billyray
10-16-2013, 10:47 PM
According to your beliefs--if those who are judged according to their works in John5:28-29--and that for life or ****ation--is not a works-based religion--then neither is LDS theology works-based.
Eternal life is based on His grace. His grace unto life is based on our obedience to Jesus Christ.

Can you point out where in John 5:28-29 it says "works"?

Again you failed to answer my question. Here it is again for you. So would you say that Mormonism is a works based religion...

Billyray
10-16-2013, 10:50 PM
A
Eternal life is based on His grace. His grace unto life is based on our obedience to Jesus Christ.

So you work to earn grace/eternal life. Is that a fair ***essment of your beliefs?

MacG
10-16-2013, 11:34 PM
About that broken log?

dberrie2000
10-17-2013, 04:43 AM
Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post--Eternal life is based on His grace. His grace unto life is based on our obedience to Jesus Christ.


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


So you work to earn grace/eternal life. Is that a fair ***essment of your beliefs?

Did those who repent and were baptized earn God's grace of the forgiveness of sins?


Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Did those who obeyed God earn God's grace of the Holy Ghost?

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)

32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

dberrie2000
10-17-2013, 04:50 AM
Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---According to your beliefs--if those who are judged according to their works in John5:28-29--and that for life or ****ation--is not a works-based religion--then neither is LDS theology works-based. The LDS believe what Christ taught--that all mankind will be judged according to works--and that for His grace unto life or ****ation.

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.




Can you point out where in John 5:28-29 it says "works"?

"they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation."

But then--that was the very doctrine of Christ--was it not?


Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.


Obviously--if that is true--faith alone theology is false. But Christ's theology ---being judged according to works, and that for His grace unto life or ****ation---one will find in the LDS church. Billyray--what is found in the Bible NT--one will also find in the LDS church.

Billyray
10-17-2013, 11:54 PM
"they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation."

But then--that was the very doctrine of Christ--was it not?

But you didn't point out where it says "works" or "personal righteousness" in John 5:28-29. Did you misread those verses? Perhaps you should go back and read them again.

dberrie2000
10-18-2013, 04:55 AM
Originally Posted by Billyray View Post----Can you point out where in John 5:28-29 it says "works"?


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----"they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation."

But then--that was the very doctrine of Christ--was it not?


Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.


Obviously--if that is true--faith alone theology is false. But Christ's theology ---being judged according to works, and that for His grace unto life or ****ation---one will find in the LDS church. Billyray--what is found in the Bible NT--one will also find in the LDS church.


But you didn't point out where it says "works" or "personal righteousness" in John 5:28-29. Did you misread those verses? Perhaps you should go back and read them again.

Regardless of how many times one reads the Biblical NT--one will find all will be judged according to works--and that for life or ****ation.

Billyray--that it defies your theology does not interpret to the Bible being written in invisible ink.

I have maintained the faith alone are in denial concerning the doctrines taught in the NT by Jesus and His apostles--and you seem determined to prove my point. If the Bible is true--faith alone theology is false--end of story:


1 Timothy 4:16----King James Version (KJV)


16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Billyray
10-18-2013, 03:14 PM
duplicate post

Billyray
10-18-2013, 03:15 PM
Regardless of how many times one reads the Biblical NT--one will find all will be judged according to works--and that for life or ****ation.


John 5
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

But you didn't point out where it says "works" or "personal righteousness" in John 5:28-29.

Billyray
10-18-2013, 03:16 PM
1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
Can you save others by your works?

Billyray
10-18-2013, 03:19 PM
Regardless of how many times one reads the Biblical NT--one will find all will be judged according to works--and that for life or ****ation.

Romans 3
27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith.
28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,
30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.

Can you tell me the basis for justification according to these verses?

dberrie2000
10-18-2013, 06:01 PM
Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Regardless of how many times one reads the Biblical NT--one will find all will be judged according to works--and that for life or ****ation.


John 5
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

But you didn't point out where it says "works" or "personal righteousness" in John 5:28-29.

What is it about "they that have done good," you don't consider works?

Christ certainly labeled it works:

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

dberrie2000
10-18-2013, 06:04 PM
Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Regardless of how many times one reads the Biblical NT--one will find all will be judged according to works--and that for life or ****ation.

Billyray--that it defies your theology does not interpret to the Bible being written in invisible ink.

I have maintained the faith alone are in denial concerning the doctrines taught in the NT by Jesus and His apostles--and you seem determined to prove my point. If the Bible is true--faith alone theology is false--end of story:


1 Timothy 4:16----King James Version (KJV)


16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.



Can you save others by your works?

That's a question you might want to reserve for Paul--he is the one who made that statement.

Do you believe it is a false statement?

Billyray
10-18-2013, 11:34 PM
That's a question you might want to reserve for Paul--he is the one who made that statement.

So what is the answer? Can you save others when you do works?

dberrie2000
10-19-2013, 04:34 AM
Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Regardless of how many times one reads the Biblical NT--one will find all will be judged according to works--and that for life or ****ation.

Billyray--that it defies your theology does not interpret to the Bible being written in invisible ink.

I have maintained the faith alone are in denial concerning the doctrines taught in the NT by Jesus and His apostles--and you seem determined to prove my point. If the Bible is true--faith alone theology is false--end of story:


1 Timothy 4:16----King James Version (KJV)

16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.


So what is the answer? Can you save others when you do works?

Your question will have to be preserved for Paul--I did not make that statement. But this the scriptures do teach--God gives His grace unto life to those who obey Him.


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


Did Paul save people?


1 Corinthians 9:22---King James Version (KJV)

22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

Billyray
10-19-2013, 04:52 PM
Your question will have to be preserved for Paul. . .
But you are the one who is using this verse as a prooftext for your works based salvation. I would think that would be able to explain the text that you brought up.

1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Can you save others when you do works?

Billyray
10-19-2013, 04:55 PM
But this the scriptures do teach--God gives His grace unto life to those who obey Him.

No they don't DB. Nowhere does the Bible teach that we earn grace by doing works. In fact it says just the opposite in Romans 11.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.