Should the members of the cult of Calvinism repent before calling Mormons a cult?

[Pa Pa]

I have never meet an anti-Mormon who was not a member of the cult of Calvinism, and I have met and debated many for my years...about 20 years now.

Many have accused Mormons of elitism because they say only some can be saved. When the core of Calvinism is that they alone are chosen and everyone else is ****ed to hell. Where is your integrity?

Should you not repent of Hersey before pointing the finger at others for the same.

I am a minister in my Church, I am obligated to call you to repentance. Also not allow you to quote scripture out of context to justify this position and try to call others into your cult.

[RealFakeHair]

I have never meet an anti-Mormon who was not a member of the cult of Calvinism, and I have met and debated many for my years...about 20 years now.

Many have accused Mormons of elitism because they say only some can be saved. When the core of Calvinism is that they alone are chosen and everyone else is ****ed to hell. Where is your integrity?

Should you not repent of Hersey before pointing the finger at others for the same.

I am a minister in my Church, I am obligated to call you to repentance. Also not allow you to quote scripture out of context to justify this position and try to call others into your cult.

I need repentin even if I aint a member of what ever. So I now repent. Woo, glad that's over with.
If a person believes as Calvin or Bobby Jones, it make not difference as to their Salvation if they are a New Testament born againder in the blood of Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible.
However believe in the myth of Joseph Smith jr. imaginary mind is something all together a horse of a different color.

[MacG]

I have never meet an anti-Mormon who was not a member of the cult of Calvinism, and I have met and debated many for my years...about 20 years now.


Let me be the first then, American Baptist here.

[dberrie2000]

Let me be the first then, American Baptist here.

American Baptists can be Calvinistic. Do you believe in the Limited Atonement?

[Billyray]

I have never meet an anti-Mormon who was not a member of the cult of Calvinism, and I have met and debated many for my years...about 20 years now.


James is an Arminian so I guess your 20 years has now come to a halt.

[Billyray]

Do you believe in the Limited Atonement?

Do you believe that Jesus PAID for every sin for every person?

[Pa Pa]

Let me be the first then, American Baptist here.

Calvinist are in every Church in ever increasing numbers.

Do you believe men are total depraved?
Do you believe God decided before man was created who he would save and who he would ****?
Do you believe in irresitable grace?

[Billyray]

Calvinist are in every Church in ever increasing numbers.

You now have two who are not Calvinist just in the last hour. It seems like your 20 year run has come to a crashing halt.

[Pa Pa]

James is an Arminian so I guess your 20 years has now come to a halt.
Never considered James an anti-Mormon, just someone obsessed with certain sins of JS, that he was doing at the time...a lot. I believe he has repented now, so I am glad. I would never think Jim who lives in Sandy to stand outside conference with a sign yelling at people. He once offered my help when I was out of work. Sorry Billy, that jab did not work out as you had hoped.

[Billyray]

Never considered James an anti-Mormon, just someone obsessed with certain sins of JS, that he was doing at the time...a lot. I believe he has repented now, so I am glad.

I have never meet an anti-Mormon who was not a member of the cult of Calvinism, and I have met and debated many for my years...about 20 years now.


You said that in your 20 years of debate you have never meet someone who "not not a member of the cult of Calvinism". You have been given two Christians in just the last hour who are not Calvinists. So much for your "20 year" streak. My guess is that what you have said in not true.

[Billyray]

When the core of Calvinism is that they alone are chosen and everyone else is ****ed to hell.
Calvinism teaches that ANYONE who places their faith in Christ will be saved. Nobody is forcing anyone to reject Christ. That is something that the individual chooses to do.

[MacG]

American Baptists can be Calvinistic.

You are right they can be:

"Calvinism tended to characterize Baptist theology (http://www.abc-usa.org/what_we_believe/our-history/) until the late 18th century, when enthusiasm developed for evangelism and overseas missionary work. By and large modern Baptists are motivated by an Arminian theology that stresses free will, and have emphasized evangelism and discipleship."


Do you believe in the Limited Atonement? Before I step in that pile, please define it for as you understand it.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post--Do you believe in the Limited Atonement?


Do you believe that Jesus PAID for every sin for every person?

I do--and so does the Biblical record:


1 John 2:2---King James Version (KJV)

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

[dberrie2000]

Before I step in that pile, please define it for as you understand it.

1 John 2:2---King James Version (KJV)

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Do you believe in the limited Atonement?

[MacG]

1 John 2:2---King James Version (KJV)

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Do you believe in the limited Atonement?

I think the idea of limited atonement takes your proof text into account but just so I know, not being psychic and all, will you spell out what limited atonement is as you understand it. It don't need to be verbose, make it plain please.

[nrajeffreturns]

James is an Arminian ....
I disagree. Jim has stated that Arminians are Calvinists, which should be a red flag that he is confused. Anyway, Jim subscribes to the fundamentals of TULIP if I remember correctly.

[Billyray]

I do--and so does the Biblical record:

If Jesus PAID for every sin for every person then what would be the basis for sending anyone to Hell?

[Billyray]

I disagree. Jim has stated that Arminians are Calvinists, which should be a red flag that he is confused. Anyway, Jim subscribes to the fundamentals of TULIP if I remember correctly.
I guess we will have to let Jim tell us where he stands.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---1 John 2:2---King James Version (KJV)

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Do you believe in the limited Atonement?


I think the idea of limited atonement takes your proof text into account but just so I know, not being psychic and all, will you spell out what limited atonement is as you understand it. It don't need to be verbose, make it plain please.

Anything less than all sins for all men:


Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


Hebrews 2:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


1 Timothy 2:6---King James Version (KJV)

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


2 Corinthians 5:14-15---King James Version (KJV)

14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---Do you believe that Jesus PAID for every sin for every person?


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----I do--and so does the Biblical record:

1 John 2:2---King James Version (KJV)

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


If Jesus PAID for every sin for every person then what would be the basis for sending anyone to Hell?

They don't obey the conditions set by the Redeemer:


2 Thessalonians 1:8-9---King James Version (KJV)

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Billyray--the Redeemer always has the right to set the conditions.

The faith alone deny any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ is necessary in order to receive of His grace unto life eternal--but the Bible has obedience to Jesus Christ as the condition upon which God extends His grace unto life:


Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)

32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.


That's the gospel one will find in the Bible and the LDS church--but absent in the faith alone theology.

[MacG]

Anything less than all sins for all men:


Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


Hebrews 2:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


1 Timothy 2:6---King James Version (KJV)

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


2 Corinthians 5:14-15---King James Version (KJV)

14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Not what I was expecting. So thanks for spelling out how you don't view limited atonement. So now I need a little more input.

Now what benefit is this unlimited atonement for those goats who will be gnashing their teeth in the outer darkness after being invited to the wedding, refusing to go but then attempt to go in without wedding clothes and are cast out of the wedding reception? Or how does it benefit the 5 virgins without oil? Or or those on the wide path to destruction? Those who cause a little one to stumble?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by MacG View Post---I think the idea of limited atonement takes your proof text into account but just so I know, not being psychic and all, will you spell out what limited atonement is as you understand it. It don't need to be verbose, make it plain please.


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Anything less than all sins for all men:


Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


Hebrews 2:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


1 Timothy 2:6---King James Version (KJV)

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


2 Corinthians 5:14-15---King James Version (KJV)

14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.


Not what I was expecting. So thanks for spelling out how you don't view limited atonement. So now I need a little more input.

Now what benefit is this unlimited atonement for those goats who will be gnashing their teeth in the outer darkness after being invited to the wedding, refusing to go but then attempt to go in without wedding clothes and are cast out of the wedding reception? Or how does it benefit the 5 virgins without oil? Or or those on the wide path to destruction? Those who cause a little one to stumble?

It provides all with the same thing--an absolvement of the condemnation brought upon man through the Fall--and an opportunity for all to inherit eternal life.

If God did not die for all--then the opportunity for eternal life did not exist for all.

[MacG]

It provides all with the same thing--an absolvement of the condemnation brought upon man through the Fall--and an opportunity for all to inherit eternal life.

If God did not die for all--then the opportunity for eternal life did not exist for all.

If I am not mistaken (and why I asked you for your definition of limited atonement which may still help) the Calvinist would say that the Atonement is for all but like the invited wedding guests, nobody RSVP'd for it.

Is this part accurate?

[dberrie2000]

If I am not mistaken (and why I asked you for your definition of limited atonement which may still help) the Calvinist would say that the Atonement is for all but like the invited wedding guests, nobody RSVP'd for it.

Is this part accurate?

Limited Atonement means just that--limited. IOW--God did not die for all men--regardless who is invited to the wedding. The Limited Atonement is a false and anti-Biblical doctrine.

Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


Hebrews 2:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


1 Timothy 2:6---King James Version (KJV)

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


2 Corinthians 5:14-15---King James Version (KJV)

14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

[MacG]

Limited Atonement means just that--limited. IOW--God did not die for all men--regardless who is invited to the wedding. The Limited Atonement is a false and anti-Biblical doctrine.

Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


Hebrews 2:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


1 Timothy 2:6---King James Version (KJV)

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


2 Corinthians 5:14-15---King James Version (KJV)

14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

How does this differ with what you are trying to say:

3. THE ATONEMENT IS LIMITED IN PURPOSE AND APPLICATION (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/boettner/predest.iv.iv.html)
While the value of the atonement was sufficient to save all mankind, it was efficient to save only the elect. It is indifferently well adapted to the salvation of one man to that of another, thus making the salvation of every man objectively possible; yet because of subjective difficulties, arising on account of the sinners own inability either to see or appreciate the things of God, only those are saved who are regenerated and sanctified by the Holy Spirit. The reason why God does not apply this grace to all men has not been fully revealed.

[Billyray]

Limited Atonement means just that--limited. IOW--God did not die for all men--regardless who is invited to the wedding. The Limited Atonement is a false and anti-Biblical doctrine.

If it is false then you should have no trouble answering my question. If Jesus paid for very sin for every person then what is the basis for sending anyone to Hell?

[dberrie2000]

How does this differ with what you are trying to say:

3. THE ATONEMENT IS LIMITED IN PURPOSE AND APPLICATION
While the value of the atonement was sufficient to save all mankind, it was efficient to save only the elect. It is indifferently well adapted to the salvation of one man to that of another, thus making the salvation of every man objectively possible; yet because of subjective difficulties, arising on account of the sinners own inability either to see or appreciate the things of God, only those are saved who are regenerated and sanctified by the Holy Spirit. The reason why God does not apply this grace to all men has not been fully revealed.

It does not make any sense to me. If the Atonement "was sufficient to save all mankind,"--then it had to include all mankind. That could not be a limited Atonement--as to all inclusive numbers of all mankind.

And it confuses the grace of the Redemptive Atonement with the grace that allows the personal reception of eternal life. One was a free gift to all men--all men were Redeemed from the consequences of the Fall through the Atonement.

Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.



The other--His grace unto life--as a personal reception--goes to those who obey Him--and is not a free gift.


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


And it has been revealed why God does not apply His grace unto life, as a personal reception to all men:


2 Thessalonians 1:8-9----King James Version (KJV)


8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

[MacG]

It does not make any sense to me. If the Atonement "was sufficient to save all mankind,"--then it had to include all mankind.

Wedding invitations are sent to everybody that would be sufficient to invite everybody. Unlimted invitation to all, no one did not get an invitation but do those who do not RVSP get to enjoy the party?

[Pa Pa]

You now have two who are not Calvinist just in the last hour. It seems like your 20 year run has come to a crashing halt.

Billy add something to the discussion and stop being an ***.

[Pa Pa]

You said that in your 20 years of debate you have never meet someone who "not not a member of the cult of Calvinism". You have been given two Christians in just the last hour who are not Calvinists. So much for your "20 year" streak. My guess is that what you have said in not true.
This is you third moronic comment...the 20 years I spoke of was anti-Mormons and Calvinism. Are you truly that lacking in intelligence?

[Pa Pa]

If I am not mistaken (and why I asked you for your definition of limited atonement which may still help) the Calvinist would say that the Atonement is for all but like the invited wedding guests, nobody RSVP'd for it.

Is this part accurate?
I see you have not answered any of my three questions about your beliefs...I can understand the embarr***ment of answering yes to them.

[Pa Pa]

Wedding invitations are sent to everybody that would be sufficient to invite everybody. Unlimted invitation to all, no one did not get an invitation but do those who do not RVSP get to enjoy the party?So you are a Calvinist. I would recommend you seek your own salvation before seeking ours.

[MacG]

So you are a Calvinist. I would recommend you seek your own salvation before seeking ours.

I suppose then that since you did not disagree with Jesus wedding parable then you are saying Jesus is a Calvinist?

[dberrie2000]

Wedding invitations are sent to everybody that would be sufficient to invite everybody. Unlimted invitation to all, no one did not get an invitation but do those who do not RVSP get to enjoy the party?

The Atonement Redemption was not an invitation with a RVSP. It was a free gift to all--whether it is accepted or not. No attendance necessary. God died for all men--all sins--of the whole world. Him alone. Done. Finished. Over when He completed it. The free gift came upon all men when God finished it--not when we attend the "party".

Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


"Came upon"--past tense. If the Redemption of mankind by Christ would have involved our faith, attendance or acceptance--it would have failed. His perfection only.

[MacG]

The Atonement Redemption was not an invitation with a RVSP.

Regardless of the RSVP, Matthew 22:3 And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come." All were invited, few came. "Jerusalem, Jerusalem how I longed to gather you as a hen gathers her chick but you would not."

[MacG]

I see you have not answered any of my three questions about your beliefs...I can understand the embarr***ment of answering yes to them.

It is hard to find them in the tsunami DB2K, sorry for that. Since you know what they are please link me to them.

[dberrie2000]

Regardless of the RSVP, Matthew 22:3 And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come." All were invited, few came. "Jerusalem, Jerusalem how I longed to gather you as a hen gathers her chick but you would not."

I believe you are confusing the opportunity to inherit eternal life--which is a free gift that came to all through God's free gift of His Atonement, the Redemption--with the actual reception of God's grace unto life to those who obey Him--which comes to those who obey the Redeemer's conditions.

For instance--the Atonement made it possible for all men to repent of their sins--but it did not remiss anyone's sins.

Repentance and water baptism(obedience) was given by the Redeemer as the condition for the actual remission of sins.


Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The point being--if the Atonement forgave sins--then why were all commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins following the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ?

I liken that to a college. The presence of a college represents an opportunity for all to be educated. That is a free gift to all--and a very important one at that. We take that for granted, often. But there are places in the world where that opportunity is not present--regardless of how badly one desires an education.

The same true for God's free gift of the Atonement--unless we were released for the automatic consequences brought upon all men due to the Fall--the opportunity was not there, regardless of our desires.

God first had to conquer death and hell--which came to man automatically because of the Fall. That Christ did--and it is referred to as the Redemption. He Redeemed all men from the consequences of the Fall--which now allows all men to be judged according to their own works--and not for Adam's sin. That was a free gift to all men.

The next step in a college education is a degree. That comes to those who obey the criteria set by the college.

The same true for His grace unto life--that comes to those who meets the conditions set by the Redeemer--and is not a free gift. That requires obedience.

I believe the members of this board confuse those two things--the opportunity for Life--presented to all men through Christ's Atonement, as a free gift, no obedience required--and the actual reception of the grace unto life--presented to those who obey the Redeemer's conditions.

[Billyray]

This is you third moronic comment...the 20 years I spoke of was anti-Mormons and Calvinism. Are you truly that lacking in intelligence?
Here was your statement.

I have never meet an anti-Mormon who was not a member of the cult of Calvinism, and I have met and debated many for my years...about 20 years now.

So every "anti-Mormon" that you have met over the last 20 years was a Calvinist?

[Pa Pa]

Calvinism teaches that ANYONE who places their faith in Christ will be saved.

No it does not, it teaches that only those already chosen for heaven and who are "drawn through irresitable Grace" will be saved and that those pre-****ed cannot come to God...the odd thing is how do you love such a God as this?

[Pa Pa]

It is hard to find them in the tsunami DB2K, sorry for that. Since you know what they are please link me to them.
They are listed and you are playing games to avoid them...I get it, you are ashamed too.

[Billyray]

Calvinism teaches that ANYONE who places their faith in Christ will be saved. Nobody is forcing anyone to reject Christ. That is something that the individual chooses to do.

No it does not
Sure it does.

[Pa Pa]

Sure it does.Noted you did not answer the entire post, come on Billy...man up.

[Billyray]

Noted you did not answer the entire post, come on Billy...man up.
What I said was absolutely true. Yet you said that it was not true. Perhaps you can show give me proof that I am incorrect.

[MacG]

They are listed and you are playing games to avoid them...I get it, you are ashamed too.

Judge not lest ye be judged. Are you playing games? At least tell me which threads they are in.

[Pa Pa]

Judge not lest ye be judged. Are you playing games? At least tell me which threads they are in.Then man up and answer the questions about Calvinism, don't hide behind being Baptist.

[James Banta]

I have never meet an anti-Mormon who was not a member of the cult of Calvinism, and I have met and debated many for my years...about 20 years now.

Many have accused Mormons of elitism because they say only some can be saved. When the core of Calvinism is that they alone are chosen and everyone else is ****ed to hell. Where is your integrity?

Should you not repent of Hersey before pointing the finger at others for the same.

I am a minister in my Church, I am obligated to call you to repentance. Also not allow you to quote scripture out of context to justify this position and try to call others into your cult.

Again you show me that you were never a member of a Christian church.. All that is required to be saved is hold faith in Jesus, who He is and what He did.. Nothing else matters.. You really believe that those that believe that God is able to know who would become His through faith and who would reject Him are in some cult? That seems to be your main difficulty with Calvinism.. We have no extra biblical revelation as mormonism does.. We have no central leadership other than Jesus, as mormonism does.. Those that have those flags are cults.. Yes the Catholic church is a cult for the same reasons mormonism is.. The also have those marks. Extra biblical revelation and strong central leadership.. Until you can point to one man that controls what you call the Cult of Calvinism, or the extra biblical revelation that is used to support doctrines that aren't found in the Bible you are just making things up..

I have been told that mormons believe that their God knows all things and yet He doesn't know who will gain exaltation and who will not? Tell me how that is possible? I also believe that God knows all thing and that includes who is saved and who will be ****ed.. Do I really need to repent of holding God in the reverence he deserves? I believe His word that Say He is one Lord.. I believe that He that knows all things yet says He doesn't know of any other Gods besides Himself exist. That means there are no others because He would know them..

You are the minister of a man made man invented cult. A cult that denies the Word of God. Bound and determined to make your own God who have a tangible body of flesh and bone when the Bible insist that God is spirit. That a spirit hasn't a body of flesh and bone.. That Jesus is the image of the INVISIBLE God.. That God has been God from eternity past and will continue to be the ONLY TRUE AND LIVING GOD into eternity future.. So show me how "Calvinism" has taken the scripture out of context to support any of these doctrines. If you need help with finding these doctrines in the Bible shout.. I have quoted them here many times.. As a son of the most High God I call you to the cross to be reborn of Him.. With that He will take your sin from you and give you His righteousness. Being a son and heir of God is far better than some man invented priesthood that again has no Biblical support for it's existence.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Then man up and answer the questions about Calvinism. . .

You seem a little bit hostile today PaPa. What's up with that?

[Billyray]

Billy add something to the discussion and stop being an ***.
PaPa with an a t t i t u d e like this may are heading for the Terrestrial kingdom at best.

[MacG]

Then man up and answer the questions about Calvinism, don't hide behind being Baptist.

I would like to answer your specific posts where I have not replied but as I said I would but I do not know where they are. No games on my part.

[Apologette]

Then man up and answer the questions about Calvinism, don't hide behind being Baptist.

Baptists are not five point Calvinists.

[James Banta]

Baptists are not five point Calvinists.

Oh but anyone believes the Bible and see it taught that a christian is the property of Jesus no one can take us away from Him, Papa calls them a Calvinist.. I have studied the 5 points of Calvinism and even as a Baptist I see the Biblical authority of each point.. IHS jim

[Pa Pa]

You seem a little bit hostile today PaPa. What's up with that?

No, just being brutally honest, so just answer the question instead of trying to figure my motives.

[Pa Pa]

Oh but anyone believes the Bible and see it taught that a christian is the property of Jesus no one can take us away from Him, Papa calls them a Calvinist.. I have studied the 5 points of Calvinism and even as a Baptist I see the Biblical authority of each point.. IHS jim
So all five points are Biblical? Thank you for clearing up the fact that you are a member of this cult. Now go and remove the beam from thine own eye.

[Pa Pa]

Baptists are not five point Calvinists.So Baptists lack a full understanding of the Bible according to Calvinists...also I know a number of Baptists who believe all five points.

[Billyray]

No, just being brutally honest
I would be extremely happy if any Mormon was honest with me, but thus far I have yet to see it.

[James Banta]

So all five points are Biblical? Thank you for clearing up the fact that you are a member of this cult. Now go and remove the beam from thine own eye.

Lets do that together.. I will even let you pull out anything there that isn't based on the Bible, fair?

Point one Total Depravity
By total depravity we mean the evil quality which characterizes man's natural disposition and will. We call this sin of nature original, because each fallen man is born with it, and because it is the source or origin in each man of his actual transgressions. This is supported by the Bible in Jer 17:9 and Romans 3:23..

Point two Unconditional Election
Jesus said (John 15:16): Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain. In Romans 9:11-13 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth..

Point three Limited Atonement
Not all men are called to be the children of God (the sheep of Jesus' fold) Some are denied membership into that group (John 10:26-27) others are said to be His sheep.. It is taught that those which God has given to Jesus will come to Him (John 6:37).. That would mean that not all have been given to Jesus all men..

Point four Irresistible Grace
There are different effects of the same gospel spoken at the same time and in the place. This proves that regeneration is given to some and denied others. After all "Some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not" (Acts 28:24). This is because, "As many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48). Irresistible grace is the effectual calling or regeneration of a person.. To those that are ordained into grace believed. If these are the one who believed then the others who didn't believe were condemned to eternal death..

Point five Perseverance of the Saints (Once saved always saved)
God knows all things. He did foresee all the disobedience, and thanklessness which an unworthy sinner was ever to perpetrate. Therefore, the future disclosure of this thanklessness, disobedience, committed by a poor sinner, cannot become a motive with God to revoke his election of him. God knew all about it just as well when he first elected him, and yet, moved by His own motives of love, mercy, and wisdom, He did elect him, foreknowing all his possible sinfulness. Those that believe are "born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever" (1 Pet. 1:23). After all it is His promises that those that come to Him, He will in no way cast out (John 6:37).. This is not to say that those that walk away were ever really part of His kingdom. Many are called few are chosen.. Those that are chosen are secure in their salvation.. Those you hold as your children are in that position forever, you would never cast them out of your family.. How much better a father is God than you? That is a comparison that is immeasurable.. We have His promise that once we come to Him we will never be cast out.. (spurgeon.org/~phil/dabney/5points.htm#p)

So what parts of the 5 points are unbiblical.. You may not like them but they are BIBLICAL.. You may wish they were false but they are based in truth.. All you can do is bow to God's sovereignty and accept it.. Now what bean you can find in my eye please help me remove it.. I do not take the credit for these teachings nor the responsibility for their authorship. I only agree with then as they conform to the Bible.. To me it sure does look like they do conform..

Now papa please tell me who is the central leader of Calvinism.. If it is a cult it must have one all cults do.. Show me the extrabiblical revelation in which all the cults have.. Even if it's believing that the words of that central leader are scripture there is extrabiblical revelation.. Show that to me in Calvinism. I have already shown you that those point of doctrine are Biblical, based on the Bible not the words of a man. IHS jim

[Billyray]

No it does not, it teaches that only those already chosen for heaven and who are "drawn through irresitable Grace" will be saved and that those pre-****ed cannot come to God...
Romans 8:30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

PaPa can you tell me what verse 30 means?

[Billyray]

So all five points are Biblical? Thank you for clearing up the fact that you are a member of this cult.
Which one do you take issue with or do you disagree with all 5 points?

[James Banta]

Well... No response.. What does that mean? When I see that it means that there is no answer.. While I don't demand that a person believes the 5 points of Calvinism to be saved, holding faith in the Jesus of the Bible does that, I do ask people to look at Calvinism though the light of the scripture.. You may gain a bit more respect for those that find the teachings of Calvinism to be more Biblical than you had thought.. To my brothers and sisters here, Thanks for putting up with this foolish old man.. IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

Oh but anyone believes the Bible and see it taught that a christian is the property of Jesus no one can take us away from Him, Papa calls them a Calvinist.. I have studied the 5 points of Calvinism and even as a Baptist I see the Biblical authority of each point.. IHS jim

Well, the LDSinc. crowd will come back soon with their goal post changing ideas adding a few points to your 5 point on Calvinistations. The fact of Jesus of the Holy Bible is all one needs to look for in their own Salvation will certainly be overlooked on their part.

[James Banta]

Well... No response.. What does that mean? When I see that it means that there is no answer.. While I don't demand that a person believes the 5 points of Calvinism to be saved, holding faith in the Jesus of the Bible does that, I do ask people to look at Calvinism though the light of the scripture.. You may gain a bit more respect for those that find the teachings of Calvinism to be more Biblical than you had thought.. To my brothers and sisters here, Thanks for putting up with this foolish old man.. IHS jim

I see DB still attacking Calvinism but does bother to address the BIBLICAL support for each point.. Why even think about the Biblical evidence when you have had your leaders make up you mind for you.. No one taught me Calvinism I hadn't even read the five points until someone online called me a Calvinist.. I read the point studied the Biblical support for each point and realized that I do accept all five point.. I can say the same thing for the Creeds.. I have never read the creeds and then I was called a creedal Christian.. After reading them I saw that they were just a abridged statement of faith that is found in the NT..

So I confess, I am a creedal, Calvinist.. I am because these doctrines are totally Biblical.. Dose God know all things? YES! Therefore He knows who are His and who will be lost.. It is already sealed.. And what parent throws a child away never to see them or have anything to do with them again.. NONE! Because the LDS teach that all of mankind are His children doesn't make it true.. The Bible teaches that those that don't come to Jesus in faith are children of the devil, not children of God. One must come to God in faith confessing their sin and Jesus as their Lord and God and be born of Him spiritually to become His children.. All that which is missing and even scorned in mormonism. But this is held as the Christian standard in the Bible, the creeds, and in Calvinism.. IHS jim

[MacG]

Just so it does not look like no one answered ;)

Sub-thread moved to a new post by dberrie2000

http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?3180-The-Redemption

[Apologette]

So Baptists lack a full understanding of the Bible according to Calvinists...also I know a number of Baptists who believe all five points.

PaPa, I think you may not fully understand Calvinism. Could you show us from Scripture where you think it departs from the faith once delivered to the Saints?

[James Banta]

PaPa, I think you may not fully understand Calvinism. Could you show us from Scripture where you think it departs from the faith once delivered to the Saints?


While I know of no Christian, Calvinist or not, that would ever put any conditions on our salvation other than holding faith in Jesus, I find that the Calvinists are not unbiblical in holding those five point as a statement of faith in what God has done for them. Papa seem to believe that Calvinism is some poison pill. That taking it ***ures total rejection by the Father and the Son, ****ing those that believe in Calvinistic teachings to the fellowship of the Holy Spirit.. And does that sound so bad? Living eternally in the presence of GOD, the Holy Spirit? Sounds like what I would expect only I would add the persons of Jesus and therefore the Father to those I will worship eternally as my KING, my LORD, my God, my first LOVE.. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

PaPa, I think you may not fully understand Calvinism. Could you show us from Scripture where you think it departs from the faith once delivered to the Saints?

PaPa might tell you, if he replies, that Arminians have already done a pretty good *** of using the Bible to expose the untrue parts of TULIP.

[Billyray]

. . .that Arminians have already done a pretty good *** of using the Bible to expose the untrue parts of TULIP.
Jeff why don't you pick one of the 5 points and we can discuss it.

[nrajeffreturns]

Jeff why don't you pick one of the 5 points and we can discuss it.

Been there, done that, why spend the time putting together an original re****al to it when there are sites dedicated to refuting TULIP already on the Net?

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/calvinism.html


is one.

[Billyray]

Been there, done that. . .
But you still seem to have questions and concerns about it so go ahead and pick one so we can talk about it.

[Pa Pa]

Oh but anyone believes the Bible and see it taught that a christian is the property of Jesus no one can take us away from Him, Papa calls them a Calvinist.. I have studied the 5 points of Calvinism and even as a Baptist I see the Biblical authority of each point.. IHS jim
No one can take you away, with one exception; we can take us from Christ.

[Pa Pa]

PaPa might tell you, if he replies, that Arminians have already done a pretty good *** of using the Bible to expose the untrue parts of TULIP.
The two belief systems advanced through murder, war and deception, I just agree with one more than the other. The odd thing is most Martyr's were killed by differing belief systems in "Christianity. :(

[Pa Pa]

Romans 8:30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

PaPa can you tell me what verse 30 means?
What of all that surrounds this verse by some 1,500 pages. The words of Christ, "I was lifted up that I might draw all men unto me. "All" has only one meaning.

[RealFakeHair]

What of all that surrounds this verse by some 1,500 pages. The words of Christ, "I was lifted up that I might draw all men unto me. "All" has only one meaning.

All in all you're pretty close to the truth, but there is one thing thou lackest, and that is Might.I might be the world's best looking man, but then maybe I might not.

[Pa Pa]

All in all you're pretty close to the truth, but there is one thing thou lackest, and that is Might.I might be the world's best looking man, but then maybe I might not.

That is the point, all have the ability if they will accept him...not preselected for heaven or hell. Christ did not say "some".

[RealFakeHair]

That is the point, all have the ability if they will accept him...not preselected for heaven or hell. Christ did not say "some".

Here is the catch 22; If we say all men might, but then say God of the Holy Bible is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, an Omniscient, we can only come to one conclusion. We may have free agent, but God of the Holy Bible already knows what we choose. What ever we choose it will always fit God of the Holy Bible's plains.
So, do we really have a choice?

[Pa Pa]

Here is the catch 22; If we say all men might, but then say God of the Holy Bible is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, an Omniscient, we can only come to one conclusion. We may have free agent, but God of the Holy Bible already knows what we choose. What ever we choose it will always fit God of the Holy Bible's plains.
So, do we really have a choice?
Knowing the outcome of the game, does not mean you are directing the players beforehand. If we cannot choose, then you are back to irresitable Grace and God as the puppet master.

[Billyray]

What of all that surrounds this verse by some 1,500 pages. The words of Christ, "I was lifted up that I might draw all men unto me. "All" has only one meaning.

Romans 8:30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

PaPa can you tell me what verse 30 means?

[Billyray]

If we cannot choose, then you are back to irresitable Grace and God as the puppet master.
Who says that we don't choose? We ALL make choices everyday.

[Pa Pa]

Who says that we don't choose? We ALL make choices everyday.
Please don't trivialize and try to compare what we buy at a store and equate it with choosing salvation. I ***ume you want to be taken seriously.

[Billyray]

What of all that surrounds this verse by some 1,500 pages. The words of Christ, "I was lifted up that I might draw all men unto me. "All" has only one meaning.
Luke 2:1 And it came to p*** in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that ALL the world should be taxed.

Was ALL of the world taxed? ALL means ALL right?

[Billyray]

So Baptists lack a full understanding of the Bible according to Calvinists...also I know a number of Baptists who believe all five points.
Some Baptists believe all 5 points and some do not. BTW some people who attend "Baptist" churches and call themselves "Baptist" do not even believe in God. You are coming from the LDS point of view where you believe that a church somehow saves you.

[Billyray]

Please don't trivialize and try to compare what we buy at a store and equate it with choosing salvation. I ***ume you want to be taken seriously.
Who said that I am trivializing this? People make choices and the choice to reject Christ is a choice that people make. Nobody is forced to reject Christ.

[nrajeffreturns]

Luke 2:1 And it came to p*** in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that ALL the world should be taxed.

Was ALL of the world taxed? ALL means ALL right?

If "All have sinned" means every single human being, including aborted fetuses and babies who die at 2 days after birth, has sinned, then yeah, "all the world" must mean every human on the planet, of every age and in every location, was taxed by Caesar. Right?

[James Banta]

If "All have sinned" means every single human being, including aborted fetuses and babies who die at 2 days after birth, has sinned, then yeah, "all the world" must mean every human on the planet, of every age and in every location, was taxed by Caesar. Right?

That is what I believe.. Just being human makes a person a sinner.. It isn't what we do it is what we are.. All does mean ALL.. You know that there is a difference between what a man commands (there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus), and the message of God to man (ALL HAVE SINNED).. IHS jim

[Billyray]

If "All have sinned" means every single human being, including aborted fetuses and babies who die at 2 days after birth, has sinned, then yeah, "all the world" must mean every human on the planet, of every age and in every location, was taxed by Caesar. Right?

So your position is that some sin and some do not sin?

[RealFakeHair]

Knowing the outcome of the game, does not mean you are directing the players beforehand. If we cannot choose, then you are back to irresitable Grace and God as the puppet master.

There is the catch 22. You can't know the outcome unless you know how the players will play.

[nrajeffreturns]

So your position is that some sin and some do not sin?

My position is the same as the official LDS position. Since you used to be a TBM and RM and seminary grad, you know what the the official LDS position is. Right?

[Billyray]

My position is the same as the official LDS position. Since you used to be a TBM and RM and seminary grad, you know what the the official LDS position is. Right?

So your position is that some do not ever sin. Right?

[James Banta]

So your position is that some do not ever sin. Right?

If that is his belief then again it shows a total disregard for the scripture.. It's not "most sin and fall short of the glory of God," it that "ALL sin and fall short of the glory of God".. I don't see Jeff responding to your question, Ever.. IHS jim

[Apologette]

I have never meet an anti-Mormon who was not a member of the cult of Calvinism, and I have met and debated many for my years...about 20 years now.

Many have accused Mormons of elitism because they say only some can be saved. When the core of Calvinism is that they alone are chosen and everyone else is ****ed to hell. Where is your integrity?

Should you not repent of Hersey before pointing the finger at others for the same.

I am a minister in my Church, I am obligated to call you to repentance. Also not allow you to quote scripture out of context to justify this position and try to call others into your cult.

Well, then you should meet my pastor who is Arminian! And very outspoken about Mormonism being cultic. Also, on CARM's Mormon site there is at least one Arminian pastor who posts, and a Lutheran (also Arminian). Actually, among Baptists you'll find a combination of Reformed (Calvinist) and Arminian viewpoints. Most Baptists, for instance, do not hold to election in the same way that a Reformed Presybterian might, although the Baptists do hold to the perseverance of the saints. I'm afraid that Calvinism has become sort of a boogey man in Mormonism since the time of Smith's "first vision," when he supposedly went home and the first thing out of his mouth was, "I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true." Recall that Lucy Mack Smith and the rest of the kids were attending a Presbyterian Church at the time while young Joseph and his father stayed home. This caused quite a problem in the Smith family, and Smith's "vision," in which God supposedly told him all Christian creeds were an abomination pretty much solved that problem for them, didn't it?

[Apologette]

My position is the same as the official LDS position. Since you used to be a TBM and RM and seminary grad, you know what the the official LDS position is. Right?

Good grief, Jeff, all those abbreviations. How about this: BITLJCABS?

[James Banta]

Good grief, Jeff, all those abbreviations. How about this: BITLJCABS?

Bit Little J Cabs? hehehehe IHS jim