Why Christianity is the truth

[James Banta]

I have shown why mormonism is a lie this thread is why Christianity is the truth. It also again proves that mormonism is not Christian..

Christianity affirms that there is one God, and that this God has been God from everlasting past and will continue to be the one true God into everlasting future (Deut 6:4, Psalm 90:2, Isaiah 43:10)

Jesus promised that the Church (Which can into existence at Pentecost) would continue throughout all time (Matthew 16:18)

God gives those He wills His salvation by His Grace though Faith in Jesus and that not of ourselves, it is gift of God NOT OF WORKS. (Eph 2:8-9)

God doesn't call prophets to direct the paths of His Church.. Jesus directs His Church directly not though any men (Heb 1:1-2)..

Priesthood is a calling all members of the Church carry. The Church (The people) are to offer the sacrifice of prayer and praise. That is the duty of priests (Hebrews 13:15)

God created our spirits within us. We didn't exist at all until that creative act of God was complete within our flesh (Zech 12:1)

The Church holds that the Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work (2 Timothy 3:15-17). It is held to be perfect in it's intent and meaning as it was when it was first given to Apostles and prophets that recorded it (Matthew 24:35).

Can Mormonism point to the Bible as they attempt to counter each of these statements? NO! They turn to the craftiness of men as they twist the truth of God's word into a lie.. IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

I have shown why mormonism is a lie this thread is why Christianity is the truth. It also again proves that mormonism is not Christian..

Christianity affirms that there is one God, and that this God has been God from everlasting past and will continue to be the one true God into everlasting future (Deut 6:4, Psalm 90:2, Isaiah 43:10)

Jesus promised that the Church (Which can into existence at Pentecost) would continue throughout all time (Matthew 16:18)

God gives those He wills His salvation by His Grace though Faith in Jesus and that not of ourselves, it is gift of God NOT OF WORKS. (Eph 2:8-9)

God doesn't call prophets to direct the paths of His Church.. Jesus directs His Church directly not though any men (Heb 1:1-2)..

Priesthood is a calling all members of the Church carry. The Church (The people) are to offer the sacrifice of prayer and praise. That is the duty of priests (Hebrews 13:15)

God created our spirits within us. We didn't exist at all until that creative act of God was complete within our flesh (Zech 12:1)

The Church holds that the Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work (2 Timothy 3:15-17). It is held to be perfect in it's intent and meaning as it was when it was first given to Apostles and prophets that recorded it (Matthew 24:35).

Can Mormonism point to the Bible as they attempt to counter each of these statements? NO! They turn to the craftiness of men as they twist the truth of God's word into a lie.. IHS jim

Faith vs Facts, but only the facts I'm concern about in LDSinc. Propaganda. If LDSinc. Wish to teach god of mormonism has a father and his father has a father, and his son the mormon jesus has a brother name Satan, who am I to tell the to stop? However when they try and tell us the Holy Bible says so then they have crossed the line.
If LDSinc. Wish to teach the mormon god told Joseph Smith jr. He must teach and practice polygamy or died at the hand of an angel, let them knock themslves out, but then say he didn't practice it as the angel decribed is totally BS!
*Smith and 19-year-old Zina D. Hunington

Smith further cemented his reputation for fooling around by making moves on a then-married teenager, Zina D. Hunington, who he asked on 25 October 1841 to become another of his multiple wives. Smith informed her (using a line he also employed with Emma and others) that he was ordered to do so by a sword-wielding angel who was threatening to kill him if he disobeyed:

“Already married, 19 year-old Zina remained conflicted with Smith's polygamy proposal 'until a day in October, apparently, when Joseph sent [her older brother] Dimick to her with a message: an angel with a drawn sword had stood over Smith and told him that if he did not establish polygamy, he would lose “his position and his life.” Zina, faced with the responsibility for his position as prophet, and even perhaps his life, finally acquiesced.' They were secretly married within days “
(Todd Compton, “In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith,” pp. 80-81, cited in ibid).

If LDSinc. faithful wish to believe, but will not admit to the LDSinc. mormon god having sex with his daughter Mary, let them keep their secret to themselves, but when they are confronted with the evidence;
President Young spoke of the first organization of this school by Joseph Smith the Prophet. The Word of Wisdom was given in this school. President Young said Adam was Michael the arch angel and he was the father of Jesus Christ and was our God and that Joseph taught this principle." Wilford Woodruff Journal, Vol.4, p.288, September 17, 1854
Their testimony is that Mary's son is God's Son; that he was conceived and begotten in the normal way; that he took upon himself mortality by the natural birth processes; that he inherited the power of mortality from his mother and the power of immortality from his Father-in consequence of all of which he was able to work out the infinite and eternal atonement." Bruce R. McConkie, The Promised Messiah: The First Coming of Christ, p.472
"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the most literal sense. The body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was sired by that same Holy Being we worship as God our Eternal Father. Jesus was not the son of Joseph, nor was He begotten by the Holy Ghost. He is the Son of the Eternal Father!" President Ezra Taft Benson, Come Unto Christ, p.
"Now, we are told in scriptures that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God in the flesh. Well, now for the benefit of the older ones, how are children begotten? I answer just as Jesus Christ was begotten of his father ... Jesus is the only person who had our Heavenly Father as the father of his body." Prophet Joseph F. Smith, Family Home Evening Manual, 1972, pp.125,126

Our Father in heaven is the Father of Jesus Christ, both in the spirit and in the flesh..I believe firmly that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh..not as the Son of the Holy Ghost, but the Son of God..Christ was begotten of God. He was not born without the aid of Man, and that Man was God!" President Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1. p. 18
"The birth of the Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. (Adam) He partook of flesh and blood - was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers." Journal of Discourses, Brigham Young, 8:115

Okay LDSinc. lie your way out of this!

[James Banta]

Okay LDSinc. lie your way out of this!

I don't see them as lying about the idea that the Bible is wrong about Jesus not being conceived of the Holy Spirit. They admit that but believe that their God Elohim committed incest with his own daughter impregnating her with the being that would become Jesus..

And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, for he is the Son of God, and that designation means what it says. (Mormon Doctrine, by Bruce McConkie, p. 742)

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the most literal sense. The body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was fathered by that same Holy Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father. Jesus was not the son of Joseph, nor was He begotten by the Holy Ghost. He is the Son of the Eternal Father (Ezra Taft Benson, Encyclopedia of Mormonism, vol. 2, pp. 724-725)

For Latter-day Saints, the paternity of Jesus is not obscure. He was the literal, biological son of an immortal, tangible Father and Mary(Ibid, Vol 2, p. 729)

Surely this is a clear statement that the LDS know better than what God has taught us in the Bible that:

Matthew 1:18
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Not only do the LDS demand that the Father is a separate being of flesh and Bone, but they deny the Bible that Mary was not with Child of the Holy Spirit but of a man exalted but never the less a man.. (Col 1:15, D&C 130:22).. IHS jim

[Sir]

I don't see them as lying about the idea that the Bible is wrong about Jesus not being conceived of the Holy Spirit. They admit that but believe that their God Elohim committed incest with his own daughter impregnating her with the being that would become Jesus..

And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, for he is the Son of God, and that designation means what it says. (Mormon Doctrine, by Bruce McConkie, p. 742)

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the most literal sense. The body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was fathered by that same Holy Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father. Jesus was not the son of Joseph, nor was He begotten by the Holy Ghost. He is the Son of the Eternal Father (Ezra Taft Benson, Encyclopedia of Mormonism, vol. 2, pp. 724-725)

For Latter-day Saints, the paternity of Jesus is not obscure. He was the literal, biological son of an immortal, tangible Father and Mary(Ibid, Vol 2, p. 729)

Surely this is a clear statement that the LDS know better than what God has taught us in the Bible that:

Matthew 1:18
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Not only do the LDS demand that the Father is a separate being of flesh and Bone, but they deny the Bible that Mary was not with Child of the Holy Spirit but of a man exalted but never the less a man.. (Col 1:15, D&C 130:22).. IHS jim

Aside from the typical anti-LDS slant and misleading information you are putting forth here (which I wont address since it has been addressed ad nauseum for decades),

why do you call God the Father, The Father, if the Holy Ghost is really the Father? Why does the Father speak from Heaven telling us that Jesus is His beloved Son, if it was really the Holy Ghost?

[RealFakeHair]

Aside from the typical anti-LDS slant and misleading information you are putting forth here (which I wont address since it has been addressed ad nauseum for decades),

why do you call God the Father, The Father, if the Holy Ghost is really the Father? Why does the Father speak from Heaven telling us that Jesus is His beloved Son, if it was really the Holy Ghost?

okay, just stop it! There is nothing misleading in any of my statements in this Thread. What is ad nauseum is your LDSinc. lying, and lying and lying about Joseph Smith jr. excuse to have sex with other women, and not just with his Wife.
Why don't we wait and ask God of the Holy Bible why we call Him Father and Jesus His Son? Why did LDSinc. Lie, and Lie, and knowingly lie about the mormon god doin it with Mary, and not just leave it as the Holy Bible says? Luke 1:35
New International Version The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called[a] the Son of God.
See the Holy Bible says, the Holy Spirit! There is no speculation here, it was your so called prophets who changed it from the Holy Spirit, to your mormon god and the question is why? Because it fit the narrative of mormon gods having sex in the mormon heaven and the mormon god having sex on earth and the humans born of the mormon god of heaven having sex with their human wives here on earth, and then after death the exalted humans becoming gods and goddess in the mormon heaven and having sex to product spirit babies for their own future earth like planet. It is all about sex, sex and nothing more than sex and you all know it to be true what I am saying!
So just stop all the pretending and admit to the Hell and ****ation of Joseph Smith jr. and the LDSinc. And them maybe then there is some hope for you!

[RealFakeHair]

Okay here is more if you still wish to put your heads in the LDSinc. sand!

"Two exciting elements of mortality, both God-given, are worthy of our
consideration. The first is that we receive a body that is physical, tangible,
one that has feelings and powers not yet enjoyed by a spirit. This body is to
facilitate our progress toward becoming like our Heavenly Father. Keep in mind
that this 'gift' was created in the EXACT LIKENESS OF HIM WHOSE CHILDREN WE
ARE. The second element is that some powers given to us through our bodies are
inherently of God, and ARE UNIQUE TO HIS ORDER OF LIFE. Our natural feelings
concerning the power to 'reproduce after our own kind' are holy and desirable.
All we have and are, so far as our natural state is concerned, is good, for it
is of God.......The powers to reproduce, then, are good, and cannot be
considered evil......."(Achieving a Celestial Marriage, p. 17).

Luke 1:35 says, speaking of Mary, "The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the
power of the Highest shall overshadow thee; therefore also that holy thing
which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."
Some Mormon leaders have interpreted this verse to mean that for Mary, a human,
to be able to 'withstand the presence of God,' that the Holy Ghost had to come
upon her:
"The Holy Ghost is the messenger of the Father and the Son. Mortal beings
could not endure the presence of the Father without the Spirit overshadowing
them, and that was the mission of the Holy Ghost, but not to beget the Son of
God, THAT WAS THE BUSINESS OF THE FATHER. Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten
Son of God the Father in the flesh, and in holding to this doctrine President
Brigham Young is in perfect accord with the teachings in the Bible."
(Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, vol. 5, p. 128).

Here is the statement of BY's that JFS supports:
"When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in
his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the
Father? He is the first of the human family; and when he (Christ) took a
tabernacle, it was begotten by his Father in Heaven, AFTER THE SAME MANNER as
the tabernacles of Cain, Abel, and the rest of the sons and daughters of Adam
and Eve. Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same
character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven."
(JoD 1:50-51, also "Answers", vol. 5, p. 121).

To illustrate more clearly that BY meant that Christ's conception was actual
physical sex, here is another of his statements:
"The birth of our Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it
was the result of NATURAL ACTION. He partook of FLESH AND BLOOD--was begotten
of his father, as we were of our fathers." (JoD, vol. 8, p. 115).

Here are a few more quotes from the 1962 Gospel Doctrine Sunday School Lesson
Manual "Gospel Living in the Home," p. 16-17:
"Jesus Christ is the Son of Elohim both as spiritual and bodily OFFSPRING; that
is to say, Elohim is LITERALLY the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and
also of the BODY in which Jesus Christ performed his mission in the flesh..."
(as quoted from 'The Articles of Faith' by James E. Talmage, p. 466).

"We are told in the scriptures that Jesus Christ is the only begotten son of
God in the flesh....how are children begotten? I answer, just as Jesus was
begotten of his Father. The Christian denominations believe that Christ was
begotten not of God, but of the spirit that overshadowed his mother. THIS IS
NONSENSE. Why will they not believe the Father when He says that Jesus Christ
is His Only Begotten Son? Why will they try to EXPLAIN THIS TRUTH AWAY and
make mystery of it?" (as quoted from Joseph F. Smith, 'Box Elder Times,' Sep.
22, 1914).

"When the time came that His first-born, the Saviour, should come into the
world and take a tabernacle, the Father came himself and favored that Spirit
with a tabernacle instead of letting any other man do it. The Saviour was
begotten by the Father of His spirit, by the same being who is the Father of
our spirits, AND THAT IS ALL THE ORGANIC DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JESUS CHRIST AND
YOU AND ME." (as quoted from 'Discourses of Brigham Young," 1925 edition, p.
77).

"The Holy Ghost came upon Mary, her conception was under that influence, even
of the spirit of life; our Father in Heaven was the Father of the Son of
Mary....." (as quoted from Joseph Fielding Smith, 'Man: His Origin and
Destiny), p. 345.)

To allay any repugnancy from members on the idea of God having actual physical
relations with the human Mary, some leaders pitched the idea that Mary was one
of God's polygamous "celestial wives":

"The fleshly body of Jesus required a Mother as well as a Father. Therefore,
the Father and Mother of Jesus, according to the flesh, must have been
***ociated in the capacity of husband and wife; hence the Virgin Mary must have
been, for the time being, the lawful wife of God the Father: we use the term
lawful wife, because it would be blasphemous in the highest degree to say that
He overshadowed her or begat the Savior unlawfully........He had a lawful right
to overshadow the Virgin Mary IN THE CAPACITY OF A HUSBAND, and beget a
Son.......Whether God the Father gave Mary to Joseph for time only, or for time
and eternity, we are not informed. It may be that He only gave her to be the
wife of Joseph while in this
mortal state, and that He intended after the resurrection to again take her as
one of his own wives to raise up immortal spirits in eternity."
Apostle Orson Pratt, "The Seer," Oct. 1853, p. 158).

Pratt's statement is supported by one from Brigham Young: "The man Joseph, the
husband of Mary, did not, that we know of, have more than one wife, but Mary
the wife of Joseph had another husband." (Deseret News, Oct. 10, 1866).

The same idea is repeated in "The Life and Teachings of Jesus", 1974, p. 29:
"Joseph was a mortal soul in premortality to be blessed with the signal honor
of coming to earth and acting as THE LEGAL GUARDIAN OF THE SON OF THE ETERNAL
FATHER IN THE FLESH."

And another statement from this same 1974 lesson manual, distributed to tens of
thousands of LDS Ins***ute students: "She, (Mary), heavy with child, traveled
all that distance on mule-back, guarded and protected as one about to give
birth to A HALF-DEITY. No other man in the history of this world of ours has
ever had such an ancestry--God the Father on the one hand and Mary the Virgin
on the other."

I repeat a quote from Ezra Taft Benson from 1988, published while he was
president of the LDS church: "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints
proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in THE MOST LITERAL SENSE. The
body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was SIRED by that same Holy
Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father." (Teachings of ET Benson, p. 6).

[Sir]

okay, just stop it! There is nothing misleading in any of my statements in this Thread. What is ad nauseum is your LDSinc. lying, and lying and lying about Joseph Smith jr. excuse to have sex with other women, and not just with his Wife.
Why don't we wait and ask God of the Holy Bible why we call Him Father and Jesus His Son? Why did LDSinc. Lie, and Lie, and knowingly lie about the mormon god doin it with Mary, and not just leave it as the Holy Bible says? Luke 1:35
New International Version The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called[a] the Son of God.
See the Holy Bible says, the Holy Spirit! There is no speculation here, it was your so called prophets who changed it from the Holy Spirit, to your mormon god and the question is why? Because it fit the narrative of mormon gods having sex in the mormon heaven and the mormon god having sex on earth and the humans born of the mormon god of heaven having sex with their human wives here on earth, and then after death the exalted humans becoming gods and goddess in the mormon heaven and having sex to product spirit babies for their own future earth like planet. It is all about sex, sex and nothing more than sex and you all know it to be true what I am saying!
So just stop all the pretending and admit to the Hell and ****ation of Joseph Smith jr. and the LDSinc. And them maybe then there is some hope for you!

The only time I have seen the word "sex" when it comes to how Jesus Christ was conceived, is when you write it.

With all your blustering about sex, it is ironic that you are actually arguing that the LDS people are the ones obsessed with sex. Just look at your post above, and we see who is really the obsessed one.

So please don't dodge my question.

Who is the Father and why do you call the Father "Father" of Jesus if you really believe the Holy Ghost is the Father?

[Billyray]

The only time I have seen the word "sex" when it comes to how Jesus Christ was conceived, is when you write it.

But LDS leaders have brought up this concept as the way in which Jesus was conceived. That is why this keeps coming up.

[Billyray]

Who is the Father and why do you call the Father "Father" of Jesus. . .
The Father is God the Father and we call Him the Father because the Bible identifies Him as the Father.


if you really believe the Holy Ghost is the Father?

The Holy Spirit is not the Father.

[Sir]

The Father is the Father and the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not the Father.

You dodged.

I understand why.

But that's okay because I rather not play on your merry-go-round.

You go ahead and continue your MO of asking questions and answering questions not asked and ignoring the answers to questions asked.

[Billyray]

You dodged.

Not a dodge at all here is my post again.




Who is the Father and why do you call the Father "Father" of Jesus. . .
The Father is God the Father and we call Him the Father because the Bible identifies Him as the Father.


if you really believe the Holy Ghost is the Father?

The Holy Spirit is not the Father.

[Billyray]

You dodged.

I understand why.

You set up a straw man argument and then when I point it out you try to escape by saying that I dodge and "play on your merry-go-round" and this is your way to try and bow out.

[Sir]

You set up a straw man argument and then when I point it out you try to escape by saying that I dodge and "play on your merry-go-round" and this is your way to try and bow out.

No, I quoted your post in my response. But you went back and changed your post to what it says now.

No strawman.

It was a simple question.

You can claim I am trying to escape it, but you didn't answer the question.

James stated "but they deny the Bible that Mary was not with Child of the Holy Spirit"

So why isn't the Holy Spirit the "father" if that's really the case?

So continue dodging and trying to taunt me into playing with you (you learned that from BrianH).

[James Banta]

Aside from the typical anti-LDS slant and misleading information you are putting forth here (which I wont address since it has been addressed ad nauseum for decades),

why do you call God the Father, The Father, if the Holy Ghost is really the Father? Why does the Father speak from Heaven telling us that Jesus is His beloved Son, if it was really the Holy Ghost?

God is the Father.. Look what it says about who Jesus is in Isaiah 9:6

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Do you know of any other Child that has ever been born that is called The Mighty God? The Prince of Peace? But look this Child that was born unto us is also the Everlasting Father! y4s The Father in heaven is called the Father, but so is Jesus and because Mary was found to be with Child of the Holy Spirit so He too is the Father.. It because He is God and God is the Father.. It is common to see mormons contradict the Bible in important matters such as the nature of the Being of God.. It is very sad to see you doubt the truth of God recorded in His word and protected by His promise that heaven and earth would die but His word would never die. It is terrible of you to call Jesus a liar and believe that the Bible meaning has been changes and some glorified man can to one of his daughters be gave life to is her first estate and had physical sex with her..

That doctrine means that Jesus was lying as he taught that God is Spirit. Not has a spirit but is a spirit.. That a spirit doesn't have flesh and bone as we have. As the Holy Spirit teaches through the Apostle. Jesus is the image of the INVISIBLE God.. Not unseen, But invisible.. That means that He can't be seen.. All that which is found clearly in the Bible isn't just denied by mormonism it is condemned.. Even your response is a condemnation of the Scripture. The ONLY reason you do that is that the Bible is so clear in the teaching. The Bible tells is clearly that Mary was found to be with Child by the Holy Spirit.. The only way for mormonism to survive teaching that the Holy Spirit is the person by which Mary was impregnated is to attack the scripture, and that you do.. The scripture survives the attack and your attack fails.. EVERY TIME.

This statement that it was the Holy Spirit whereby Mary was with Child confirms the doctrine of the Trinity. If it didn't that would mean that Jesus lied as He prophesied that His words would always be there. If he lied He isn't God, the Christ. If He isn't we have no hope and all of us look forward only to the Lake of Fire..

The Father is the Father because that is His place as God.. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the Father because that is their place as God.. What p***age do you have that teaches that Jesus or the Holy Spirit aren't the Father? I have just shown you where they are called that or held the position as Father. There is One God the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit.. God is the Father.. Each of the Persons of God is God therefore they are the Father.. A=B, B=C, so A=C.. We don't even need it stated that Jesus is the Everlasting Father but we do have that clearly stated in His word.. Your denial hasn't a leg to stand on.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

The only time I have seen the word "sex" when it comes to how Jesus Christ was conceived, is when you write it.

With all your blustering about sex, it is ironic that you are actually arguing that the LDS people are the ones obsessed with sex. Just look at your post above, and we see who is really the obsessed one.

So please don't dodge my question.

Who is the Father and why do you call the Father "Father" of Jesus if you really believe the Holy Ghost is the Father?

I will grant you that LDS leaders used language that could be used in mixed company but the meaning is still there..

Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, pp. 546-47).

Tell me sir, what is the way mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers.. I am happy to use the language that Elder McConkie used in that statement.. It is a more "G" rated way of saying just what RFH said.. I answered your question clearly as to who God is and that He is the Father.. Go read it again.. Seems you need more schooling on the Nature of God.. IHS jim

[Sir]

God is the Father.. Look what it says about who Jesus is in Isaiah 9:6

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Do you know of any other Child that has ever been born that is called The Mighty God? The Prince of Peace? But look this Child that was born unto us is also the Everlasting Father! y4s The Father in heaven is called the Father, but so is Jesus and because Mary was found to be with Child of the Holy Spirit so He too is the Father.. It because He is God and God is the Father.. It is common to see mormons contradict the Bible in important matters such as the nature of the Being of God.. It is very sad to see you doubt the truth of God recorded in His word and protected by His promise that heaven and earth would die but His word would never die. It is terrible of you to call Jesus a liar and believe that the Bible meaning has been changes and some glorified man can to one of his daughters be gave life to is her first estate and had physical sex with her..

That doctrine means that Jesus was lying as he taught that God is Spirit. Not has a spirit but is a spirit.. That a spirit doesn't have flesh and bone as we have. As the Holy Spirit teaches through the Apostle. Jesus is the image of the INVISIBLE God.. Not unseen, But invisible.. That means that He can't be seen.. All that which is found clearly in the Bible isn't just denied by mormonism it is condemned.. Even your response is a condemnation of the Scripture. The ONLY reason you do that is that the Bible is so clear in the teaching. The Bible tells is clearly that Mary was found to be with Child by the Holy Spirit.. The only way for mormonism to survive teaching that the Holy Spirit is the person by which Mary was impregnated is to attack the scripture, and that you do.. The scripture survives the attack and your attack fails.. EVERY TIME.

This statement that it was the Holy Spirit whereby Mary was with Child confirms the doctrine of the Trinity. If it didn't that would mean that Jesus lied as He prophesied that His words would always be there. If he lied He isn't God, the Christ. If He isn't we have no hope and all of us look forward only to the Lake of Fire..

The Father is the Father because that is His place as God.. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the Father because that is their place as God.. What p***age do you have that teaches that Jesus or the Holy Spirit aren't the Father? I have just shown you where they are called that or held the position as Father. There is One God the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit.. God is the Father.. Each of the Persons of God is God therefore they are the Father.. A=B, B=C, so A=C.. We don't even need it stated that Jesus is the Everlasting Father but we do have that clearly stated in His word.. Your denial hasn't a leg to stand on.. IHS jim

So James said all 3 are the Father.

Billy said, "The Father is the Father and the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not the Father."

The Christian "Creeds" say "The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts."

"And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father."

----But James can go ahead and imply I am a liar, that I call Jesus a liar, etc. All of which is false, but that's all he has and the few readers here known him and know that. While James claims to use the Bible to support his positions, he runs counter to the creeds that the majority of Christians adhere to. So who do we believe? This just reaffirms the problems on apostate mainstream Christianity.

[Sir]

I will grant you that LDS leaders used language that could be used in mixed company but the meaning is still there..

Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, pp. 546-47).

Tell me sir, what is the way mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers.. I am happy to use the language that Elder McConkie used in that statement.. It is a more "G" rated way of saying just what RFH said.. I answered your question clearly as to who God is and that He is the Father.. Go read it again.. Seems you need more schooling on the Nature of God.. IHS jim

Nice try at the "schooling" comment.

let me school you. 2 of my 3 kids were conceived through means other than sex.

So thanks for the invitation to "school" me. If I need any help in committing adultery and cheating on my wife, I might need your schooling, but other than that....

[James Banta]

Nice try at the "schooling" comment.

let me school you. 2 of my 3 kids were conceived through means other than sex.

So thanks for the invitation to "school" me. If I need any help in committing adultery and cheating on my wife, I might need your schooling, but other than that....

Your children may not have been the product of sexual intercourse but they were still a conceived by the uniting of one male sexual cell and one female sexual cell.. The mortal body of Jesus was not so.. His mortal body was a creative act of God as conducted by the person of the Holy Spirit.. Please call the scripture a lie again.. It makes you look so spiritual, NOT...

You might already need help in understanding that you have sinned.. That since you have sinned, you are guilty of the whole Law.. Whether you have committed adultery you are no less guilty of it than I am.. But you can also deny the truth of God's word found in the Book of James too if you feel the need to call God's word lies.. See I can claim another verse that teaches that if we Confess our sin (and you even know about my sin) He is FAITHFUL AND JUST to forgive my sin and cleanse me of ALL unrighteousness.. It is clear that holding that sin against me when God has cleaned me, you stand guilty of acting on Satan's behalf in accusing, much more than I am in claiming His forgiveness.. Yes it seems you need a lot of schooling.. Good swing but that is clearly a swing and a miss.. You have struck out on that old accusation time and again.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

So James said all 3 are the Father.

Billy said, "The Father is the Father and the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not the Father."

The Christian "Creeds" say "The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts."

"And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father."

----But James can go ahead and imply I am a liar, that I call Jesus a liar, etc. All of which is false, but that's all he has and the few readers here known him and know that. While James claims to use the Bible to support his positions, he runs counter to the creeds that the majority of Christians adhere to. So who do we believe? This just reaffirms the problems on apostate mainstream Christianity.

Watch my lips.. ALL THREE ARE GOD.. There is one God not three gods.. Therefore all three persons are the same Being.. It is as proper to call Jesus Father as it is to call the Father Savior, and the Holy Spirit Lord.. I never said there were three of any of the persons of God.. There in One God not three gods.. Each is just as much God as the others.. If your mind won't allow that don't blame the magnitude of God, blame the smallness of the flesh.. IHS jim

[Sir]

Your children may not have been the product of sexual intercourse but they were still a conceived by the uniting of one male sexual cell and one female sexual cell.. The mortal body of Jesus was not so.. His mortal body was a creative act of God as conducted by the person of the Holy Spirit.. Please call the scripture a lie again.. It makes you look so spiritual, NOT...



So now you claim to know for a fact how Jesus was conceived?

You are amazing.

The scriptures do not say the mortal body of Christ was NOT the product of male and female cells. So claiming that I am calling the scriptures a lie is pretty dumb. However, you sure seem to be making up a lot of your own doctrines tonight. That makes you the one peddling lies.

[Sir]

Watch my lips.. ALL THREE ARE GOD.. There is one God not three gods.. Therefore all three persons are the same.. It is as proper to call Jesus Father as it is to call the Father Savior.. You can include the Holy Spirit in that too HE IS GOD ever bit as much as the Father and the Son are God.. IHS jim

Thankfully I cannot see your lips. But you are saying something that the creeds you worship seem to be against.

Even now you are claiming that all 3 persons "are the same". Now you are going into modalist James.

Hard to keep up with all the heretical positions of theology you profess.

[Billyray]

No, I quoted your post in my response. But you went back and changed your post to what it says now.

I revised it just after posting it, prior to seeing your post.


No straw man. Christians don't believe the Holy Ghost is the Father. That is a straw man.

Sure it was. Below is from your post. Christians don't believe that the Holy Ghost is the Father. That is a straw man.


if you really believe the Holy Ghost is the Father?

[Billyray]

So why isn't the Holy Spirit the "father" if that's really the case?

Because the Bible clearly tells us the the Father is the Father and the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit. Why on earth do you want to change the names that they have been given?

[James Banta]

So now you claim to know for a fact how Jesus was conceived?

You are amazing.

The scriptures do not say the mortal body of Christ was NOT the product of male and female cells. So claiming that I am calling the scriptures a lie is pretty dumb. However, you sure seem to be making up a lot of your own doctrines tonight. That makes you the one peddling lies.

The Bible said that Mary KNEW NOT MAN (Luke 1:34).. The Bible said she was with Child of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 1:18).. This was a miraculous event. It had nothing to do with natural reproduction.. I maybe DUMB according to you but what I have said here is Biblical. What you have been inferring is anti-biblical..

I am the one peddling lies now.. I have used ONLY what the Bible has said about the conception and birth of the Lord Jesus..

Here are the "lies" I am peddling..

God is Spirit (John 4:24) as taught by Jesus..

A spirit has not a body of flesh and bone (Luke 24:39). Again that is taught by Jesus..

The Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul teaches Jesus is the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15)

That Jesus was conceived in the womb of Mary as a creative act of the Holy Spirit (GOD) (Matthew 1:18-20). He is pure Spirit and sexual contact would not be possible.

These are not lies these are Biblical facts.. You may as well say that there is no God at all as to deny these Biblical truths as lies and the messengers of those truths as lie peddlers.. Tell me do you have it in you at all to use some scripture to support your claims or do you just go by what some man taught in your Gospel Doctrines cl***? IHS jim

[James Banta]

Thankfully I cannot see your lips. But you are saying something that the creeds you worship seem to be against.

Even now you are claiming that all 3 persons "are the same". Now you are going into modalist James.

Hard to keep up with all the heretical positions of theology you profess.

First Modlism teaches that there is one person that manifests himself as the three persons of God.. I teach there are three Persons. That is NOT Modlism.. Do some study..

Show me were I said I worship the creeds? Do you worship the AofF? They are a creed. All the creeds are, are a statement of faith.. I do disagree with your concept of what the creeds teach. You come at them from an LDS mind believing that there are three separate gods of whom the Father is preeminent. I agree with God that He is one Lord (Deut 6:4). That beside Him there is no savior (Isaiah 43:11). That No other God was formed before Him and none will be formed after Him (Isaiah 43:10). I trust Him that He was truthful as He asked "Is there a God besides me? I know not any" (Isaiah 44:8). Therefore when the Bible teaches that Jesus is God (John 1:1), and that the Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4), and that the Father is God (John 20:17) I must say that these Persons are that ONE true and living God. I refuse to toss out the parts of the Bible that makes the human mind wonder how it is possible that three persons are one God. I see what God has said about Himself and agree with Him. He is the Lord our God and He is ONE LORD..

I agree with God that He is one God. I agree that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God. That they are that one God.. I agree with the scripture that teachers that the Child that was born unto us is the Mighty God the Everlasting Father (Isaiah 9:6). I agree that the Holy Spirit was the agent to Mary that caused her to bring forth the Christ Child.. In that way He is the Father as well.. All three of the Persons the Bible has called God are just as much the Father as the Father since they are the one true God.. The creed are true as far as they go to explain the union of these Persons as one God but the full truth is held in God's word the Bible. You seem to flat deny those truths as you agree with Joseph Smith that:

Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three cons***ute three distinct personages and three Gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold! we have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural: and who can contradict it! (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 473)

I will tell you who can contradict it, Jesus can:

And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord (Mark 12:29)

Smith says there are three, Jesus says there is one. Which one do you think we should believe above the other? DUHHH... IHS jim

[Sir]

I am the one peddling lies now.. I have used ONLY what the Bible has said about the conception and birth of the Lord Jesus..

Really?

Where in the Bible does it say the mortal body of Jesus was NOT created by the combination of male and female cells?

It doesn't say that anywhere, so you making that ***umption is simply making up stuff, aka. lying.

Anyway, relax. I just like having fun with you. You and billyray are way too serious. I throw out a comment or two and you come back with paragraphs of complaints and supposed re****les. I really couldn't care less what you think about my faith or that you think you are right about everything.

That's why it's boring here. The only Anti-LDS posters are really you and billyray. You post long-winded rants that usually don't make sense and billy posts short little question after question thinking he is setting traps, and then avoids any question asked of him that debunks his arguments. I'm just having fun watching you guys. Like puppies who run after a ball. :)

[James Banta]

Really?

Where in the Bible does it say the mortal body of Jesus was NOT created by the combination of male and female cells?

It doesn't say that anywhere, so you making that ***umption is simply making up stuff, aka. lying.

Anyway, relax. I just like having fun with you. You and billyray are way too serious. I throw out a comment or two and you come back with paragraphs of complaints and supposed re****les. I really couldn't care less what you think about my faith or that you think you are right about everything.

That's why it's boring here. The only Anti-LDS posters are really you and billyray. You post long-winded rants that usually don't make sense and billy posts short little question after question thinking he is setting traps, and then avoids any question asked of him that debunks his arguments. I'm just having fun watching you guys. Like puppies who run after a ball. :)

A spirit has male reproductive cells? As I said Jesus taught that a spirit has no tangible body. How would such a person have reproductive cells to contribute at all? Sir like it or not you get the truth from me.. The truth found in the Bible.. I see that you don't like it because of your complaints.. But as I have said you don't need to stay here and hear that truth..

No one I know of is banned.. If a posters is moved to add something to the forum they can.. If not I will add what I find in my heart.. Tell me that I am wrong is doing that.. That is lined up solidly to freedom of speech and religion. Are you an American? If you are why would you deny such freedoms?

Ok you don't like my post.. So don't read them.. If you don't read them then be honest and don't try to answer me in your posts.. You will have no idea what I have said and therefore no idea of how to answer.. If you want to post and not do any reading, post your own thoughts. Then as you usually do, ignore my responses.. IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

The only time I have seen the word "sex" when it comes to how Jesus Christ was conceived, is when you write it.

With all your blustering about sex, it is ironic that you are actually arguing that the LDS people are the ones obsessed with sex. Just look at your post above, and we see who is really the obsessed one.

So please don't dodge my question.

Who is the Father and why do you call the Father "Father" of Jesus if you really believe the Holy Ghost is the Father?

There are many defintions of the word SEX In my day of youth if the phrase, (making love) was used in a sentence we knew it meant SEX. Todays youth laugh when they hear an old timers say something like this. "All you kids want to do is make love". They laugh and say, "you mean, hooking up, don't you?
So as we know each generation have different ways of saying the same thing, SEX.
Now let us see how in the 19th centry Victorian way of saying SEX "The birth of our Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of NATURAL ACTION. He partook of FLESH AND BLOOD--was begottenof his father, as we were of our fathers." (JoD, vol. 8, p. 115).
We see Brigham Young trying to put it in a way one might expect a man of that time and culture. Natural action? And more to the point. Begotten of his Father, as we were of our Fathers!
Leaving aside the phrase, Natural action, how were you Sir, begotten by your father?

[James Banta]

There are many defintions of the word SEX In my day of youth if the phrase, (making love) was used in a sentence we knew it meant SEX. Todays youth laugh when they hear an old timers say something like this. "All you kids want to do is make love". They laugh and say, "you mean, hooking up, don't you?
So as we know each generation have different ways of saying the same thing, SEX.
Now let us see how in the 19th centry Victorian way of saying SEX "The birth of our Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of NATURAL ACTION. He partook of FLESH AND BLOOD--was begottenof his father, as we were of our fathers." (JoD, vol. 8, p. 115).
We see Brigham Young trying to put it in a way one might expect a man of that time and culture. Natural action? And more to the point. Begotten of his Father, as we were of our Fathers!
Leaving aside the phrase, Natural action, how were you Sir, begotten by your father?

Maybe now he will understand.. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

Your children may not have been the product of sexual intercourse but they were still a conceived by the uniting of one male sexual cell and one female sexual cell.

Jim, this thing called "cloning" was discovered a few decades ago. It's pretty cool. You should study it.

[MacG]

Jim, this thing called "cloning" was discovered a few decades ago. It's pretty cool. You should study it.

How is that not a nonsequitur? The two shall be one the scripture states but your re****al is closer to asexual reproduction, the one shall be two...or more.

[James Banta]

Jim, this thing called "cloning" was discovered a few decades ago. It's pretty cool. You should study it.

Tell me how that effected sir's children? Are you saying that they are clones? I haven't heard of a single human being that has ever entered the world in that manner.. The human race has had no trouble keeping the Lord's commandment to be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the earth.. This looks like you are grasping at straws to me.. If not is was just a poor argument for arguments sake.. IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

Jim, this thing called "cloning" was discovered a few decades ago. It's pretty cool. You should study it.

I wished there were a million cloned just like me!

[James Banta]

I wished there were a million cloned just like me!

God save us!!! hehehehe IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

How is that not a nonsequitur?
Because it wasn't.


The two shall be one the scripture states but your re****al is closer to asexual reproduction, the one shall be two...or more.
Does that explain the conception of Jesus? Which TWO became ONE in order to cause Mary's pregnancy?

Are you now seeing the relevance of my point?

[nrajeffreturns]

Tell me how that effected sir's children?
Nice try, but the discovery of cloning affects the uninformed opinions of anti-LDS people such as yourself who falsely claim "Sex is the only way humans can be conceived, therefore the only way LDS doctrine could be true is if God had sex with Mary."


Are you saying that they are clones?
No, I am asking you "How do you know that Jesus isn't the only cloned child of God?"


I haven't heard of a single human being that has ever entered the world in that manner..
You haven't heard of Jesus? He entered the world like most human beings do, yet He was so much more than just a human being, thanks to who He was and who His Father was.


This looks like you are grasping at straws to me..
That's okay, I understand how your limited world view can make a lot of valid points look like grasping at straws.

[RealFakeHair]

Nice try, but the discovery of cloning affects the uninformed opinions of anti-LDS people such as yourself who falsely claim "Sex is the only way humans can be conceived, therefore the only way LDS doctrine could be true is if God had sex with Mary."


No, I am asking you "How do you know that Jesus isn't the only cloned child of God?"


You haven't heard of Jesus? He entered the world like most human beings do, yet He was so much more than just a human being, thanks to who He was and who His Father was.


That's okay, I understand how your limited world view can make a lot of valid points look like grasping at straws.

nrajeffnoreturn? I thought you might stay away from this debate, it is a no-win for LDSinc. Jesus being cloned, now that is funny! That means there are two or more of them?

[MacG]

Because it wasn't.


Does that explain the conception of Jesus? Which TWO became ONE in order to cause Mary's pregnancy?

Are you now seeing the relevance of my point?

I see we agree that Jesus is not a clone.

Now the command went forth to be fruitful and multiply and as is true for sexual reproduction the two became one. As you know save for one, this, until as late as the 20th century perhaps, is how men and women conceived children.

Clearly something is different at the conception of Jesus, yes?

The early scriptures speak of the Holy Spirit brooding over the waters in the creation process. Given that God created the flesh of Adam first from the dust of the earth and then the flesh of Eve from Adam's flesh it is no stretch to say God also formed the flesh of Jesus within Mary in a most un-natural way, most would say a supernatural way, an overshadowing, brooding way, as He did with the life in the planet, Adam's flesh and Adam's rib.

At any rate we can see that God does not need male genitalia to accomplish the creation of human flesh as opposed to some accounts published by TCJCLDS.

The formation of the flesh of Jesus in Mary I would say follows the mode of God's creative abilities seen prior than any kind of natural way of which we know.

[James Banta]

[nrajeffreturns;148866]Nice try, but the discovery of cloning affects the uninformed opinions of anti-LDS people such as yourself who falsely claim "Sex is the only way humans can be conceived, therefore the only way LDS doctrine could be true is if God had sex with Mary."

Uninformed "anti-LDS".. Do you need to see again what mormon prophets have said about the event? No matter here is it:

And so it is with the Eternal Father and the mortal birth of the Eternal Son. The Father is a Father is a Father; he is not a spirit essence or nothingness to which the name Father is figuratively applied. And the Son is a Son is a Son; he is not some transient emanation from a divine essence, but a literal, living offspring of an actual Father. ... There is nothing figurative or hidden or beyond comprehension in our Lord's coming into mortality. He is the Son of God in the same sense and way that we are the sons of mortal fathers. (The Promised Messiah, pp. 468-469)

Does that sound like cloning to you? It sure doesn't to me or anyone else I have ever met.. When Elder McConkie teaches that "He is the Son of God in the same sense and way that we are the sons of mortal fathers" that sounds like he believes that there was a uniting of the male and female sexual cells and fertilization took place.. That isn't cloning.. This is as wild a statement as any I have seen even from Bert..

But what does the Bible teach about the Christ Child's beginnings?

Matthew 1:18
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.


Neither this p***age or the erred statements of McConkie uphold any possibility of cloning. McConkie does agree with you in one thing. That is the Bible is wrong and therefore untrustworthy. But still both the LDS denial of the scripture and the scripture it's self deny you ridiculous theory. You have been reading too many comic books and not enough scripture..


No, I am asking you "How do you know that Jesus isn't the only cloned child of God?"

Because God said so! How much clearer can it get "she was found with child of the Holy Ghost". Believe it of not but don't go around think that Biblical doctrine os mormon doctrine no matter what you hear your leaders says. Os yes they spout of that claim about the bible but end up in total denial of the first chapter and the 18th verse.. They believe is what the OT an the first 17 verses of the NT? That is how it appears even though your leaders insist that they believe the Bible

Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (known informally by the nickname Mormons) believe the Bible. Indeed, so literally and completely do their beliefs and practices conform to the teachings of the Bible that it is not uncommon to hear informed persons say: 'If all men believed the Bible, all would be Mormons.' Bible doctrine is Mormon doctrine, and Mormon doctrine is Bible doctrine. They are one and the same" (What The Mormons Think of Christ, p. 2).

You go beyond that and believe Jesus is a clone? Tell me why bother with the Bible at all just make up what you want to believe and make that your scripture..



You haven't heard of Jesus? He entered the world like most human beings do, yet He was so much more than just a human being, thanks to who He was and who His Father was.

Nope never heard of a cloned version of the Father.. He is the ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of God, the the only cloned version of God.. Such a teaching would be jar dropping even in Gospel Doctrines cl***.. Why don't you try it out on them and tell me how many of them buy into this perversion of the word, Ok?


That's okay, I understand how your limited world view can make a lot of valid points look like grasping at straws.

If believing the Bible, if that is grasping at straws then that is what I am going.. What I am not doing is being ****n about by every wind of doctrine that comes along. On the other hand you will not submit to Him through His word but look for something that agrees with your personal invented gospel.. That is a poor choice.. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

nrajeffnoreturn? I thought you might stay away from this debate, it is a no-win for LDSinc.
You think I only participate in the debates that I know the pro-LDS will win? If I do, it's not on purpose.


Jesus being cloned, now that is funny!
"Master, show us the Father."
"If you have seen me, you have seen the Father."
"And it came to p*** that the disciples all laughed at the funniness of Jesus' answer."

Is that how your Bible tells it?
I don't think it's funny.


That means there are two or more of them?
Think and use your reasoning abilities: If Jesus has one Father, and the Father has one unique, only-begotten Son who is like Him IN EVERY WAY according to the Bible, then how many of them do YOU think that makes? `

[nrajeffreturns]

I see we agree that Jesus is not a clone.
Your seeing abilities are faulty, since nothing I said was meant to suggest that Jesus is not an exact replica of The Father.


Clearly something is different at the conception of Jesus, yes?
Yes. No human had been conceived the way Jesus had been. A woman who was a virgin at the time, gave birth to a baby. That was a first in human history.


The early scriptures speak of the Holy Spirit brooding over the waters in the creation process. Given that God created the flesh of Adam first from the dust of the earth and then the flesh of Eve from Adam's flesh it is no stretch to say God also formed the flesh of Jesus within Mary in a most un-natural way, most would say a supernatural way, an overshadowing, brooding way, as He did with the life in the planet, Adam's flesh and Adam's rib.
OK


At any rate we can see that God does not need male genitalia to accomplish the creation of human flesh
Correct, and we can see that no genitalia of any kind are needed in order to clone oneself.


as opposed to some accounts published by TCJCLDS.
I challenge your vague ***ertion.


The formation of the flesh of Jesus in Mary I would say follows the mode of God's creative abilities seen prior than any kind of natural way of which we know.
At least it was beyond the abilities of 1st-century human technology.

[nrajeffreturns]

Uninformed "anti-LDS".. Do you need to see again what mormon prophets have said about the event?
I don't need to re-read anything to know that you are uninformed or misinformed about some things.


Does that sound like cloning to you?
It is consistent with what would be involved in a male being fathering a son through cloning.


It sure doesn't to me or anyone else I have ever met..
Maybe you don't meet many people.


When Elder McConkie teaches that "He is the Son of God in the same sense and way that we are the sons of mortal fathers" that sounds like he believes that there was a uniting of the male and female sexual cells and fertilization took place.. That isn't cloning..
You are free to INFER or ***UME that it rules out cloning, but all that means is that you made premature ***umptions.


This is as wild a statement as any I have seen even from Bert..
It's not nearly as wild as what we hear from anti-LDS propagandists: "Mormons believe that God had sex with Mary!!!"


You have been reading too many comic books and not enough scripture..
I did read an anti-LDS Chick Tract, and I did see Ed Decker's cartoon segment from The God Makers. And indeed, they were full of false and nonscriptural claims.


Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (known informally by the nickname Mormons) believe the Bible. Indeed, so literally and completely do their beliefs and practices conform to the teachings of the Bible that it is not uncommon to hear informed persons say: 'If all men believed the Bible, all would be Mormons.' Bible doctrine is Mormon doctrine, and Mormon doctrine is Bible doctrine. They are one and the same" (What The Mormons Think of Christ, p. 2).


You go beyond that and believe Jesus is a clone?
I never said I believed it. Go back and try to find where I did, if you really think you're telling the truth here.


Nope never heard of a cloned version of the Father..
Have you heard of the claim that Jesus is the exact representation of the Father in bodily form? Have you heard of the claim that Jesus is like His Father in every way? Have you heard of the claim that if you have seen Jesus, you have seen His Father?


He is the ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of God, the the only cloned version of God..
It is possible for people to be begotten through cloning. Try to prove me wrong if you want to. I will be happy to see what you come up with.

[James Banta]

[nrajeffreturns;148879]I don't need to re-read anything to know that you are uninformed or misinformed about some things.

You got it anyway.. It is clear that all historic LDS leaders spoke of the Father being the literal Father of Jesus, the same way mortal fathers are the fathers of their children.. That isn't cloning.. To say it is is a flat denial of your leaders teaching and the Biblical record..


It is consistent with what would be involved in a male being fathering a son through cloning.

Begotten means begotten,

Each of the words is to be understood literally. Only means only; Begotten means begotten; and Son means son. Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, pp. 546-47).

Maybe it's that you don't understand the literal leaning of the word begotten:

Begotten means to procreate. Some of it's synonyms are spawn, sire, breed, father.. Cloning is not to father it is to replicate..


Maybe you don't meet many people.

Well there is that.. I don't meet many s t u p i d people..


You are free to INFER or ***UME that it rules out cloning, but all that means is that you made premature ***umptions.

I rule it out because to believe that Jesus is a clone means that he is a creation of some other being.. The Bible tell us that before the God of the Bible no other God was formed and that none will be formed after Him.. You can believe that the father took His own DNA, which he doesn't have to start with, and made another divine being from that sample.. But as I just pointed out no other God was formed before or after that divine being.. This God that you believe could have cloned Jesus also said that He doesn't even know that any other God exists.. And how long has this God been God? The Bible says from everlasting and will be God to everlasting.. Those p***ages smash your cloning nonsense or that Jesus was ever spiritually created by the Father.. UNLESS GOD IS A LIAR..


It's not nearly as wild as what we hear from anti-LDS propagandists: "Mormons believe that God had sex with Mary!!!"

The Christian here didn't invent that idea.. It is one more garbage doctrine taught in mormonism by it's prophets..

The fleshly body of Jesus required a Mother as well as a Father. Therefore, the Father and Mother of Jesus, according to the flesh, must have been ***ociated together in the capacity of Husband and Wife; hence the Virgin Mary must have been, for the time being, the lawful wife of God the Father: we use the term lawful Wife, because it would be blasphemous in the highest degree to say that He overshadowed her or begat the Saviour unlawfully. It would have been unlawful for any man to have interfered with Mary, who was already espoused to Joseph; for such a heinous crime would have subjected both the guilty parties to death, according to the law of Moses. But God having created all men and women, had the most perfect right to do with His own creation, according to His holy will and pleasure: He had a lawful right to overshadow the Virgin Mary in the capacity of a husband, and beget a Son (The Seer, p. 158)

See we only tell you the truth of what the foundational leaders of mormonism had taught.. You don't believe it is is you that in unknowingly out of step with the teachings of the LDS church..


I did read an anti-LDS Chick Tract, and I did see Ed Decker's cartoon segment from The God Makers. And indeed, they were full of false and nonscriptural claims.

Really which of his claims were wrong.. I didn't see even one that was out of step with the teaCHING OF THE PREEXISTANCE..


Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (known informally by the nickname Mormons) believe the Bible. Indeed, so literally and completely do their beliefs and practices conform to the teachings of the Bible that it is not uncommon to hear informed persons say: 'If all men believed the Bible, all would be Mormons.' Bible doctrine is Mormon doctrine, and Mormon doctrine is Bible doctrine. They are one and the same" (What The Mormons Think of Christ, p. 2).


I never said I believed it. Go back and try to find where I did, if you really think you're telling the truth here.

Then you deny the teachings of your prophets and leaders that most LDS believe God set before the church as teachers, those holding the message of God for the church.. You are NOT a mormon, you deny their teachings, you have even gone above the command to not establish your own righteousness. You have rebelled even against the lies that Smith and his followers have taught.. Take this cloning nonsense to Sunday School and see how it play out there.. You are NOT in agreement with the Bible nor the false teachings of mormonism. You have become a clone of Bert..


Have you heard of the claim that Jesus is the exact representation of the Father in bodily form? Have you heard of the claim that Jesus is like His Father in every way? Have you heard of the claim that if you have seen Jesus, you have seen His Father?

The Bible teaches that Jesus is the image of the invisible God.. So if He were a clone he would be invisible.. How can you, I, or Joseph Smith see that which is invisible? How many times do you need to see Isaiah 9:6.. Jesus is the Child that was born unto us and he is the Mighty God, he is the Everlasting Father.. Make it all fit into your beliefs or deny it all.. Looks like to me you have denied it all..



It is possible for people to be begotten through cloning. Try to prove me wrong if you want to. I will be happy to see what you come up with.

If that is possible show me one instance that it has been done.. Your church teaches that the Father was the literal father of Jesus.. You deny That.. The Bible teaches that Mary was found to be with Child of the Holy Spirit.. Cloning would mean that Jesus would be like the father in every way.. Your own teachers said that Jesus inherited the ability to conquer death from the Father. From His mother he received the ability to die.. If he was a clone he wouldn't have any human traits at all.. He could never have died.. His death proves your theory wrong.. IHS jim

[MacG]

Your seeing abilities are faulty, since nothing I said was meant to suggest that Jesus is not an exact replica of The Father.

My inner beauty Queen, Miss Interpreted, was confused by what your were saying to Jim about clones and human reproduction. But since you are not suggesting that Jesus is not an exact replica you then saying then saying that Jesus is a clone of the Father?



Correct, and we can see that no genitalia of any kind are needed in order to clone oneself.

Didn't mean to be so sexist.


I challenge your vague ***ertion.

Reminds me of a Carly Simon song "You're So Vague" :) If it is so vague what is it that you think you are challenging?

[RealFakeHair]

You got it anyway.. It is clear that all historic LDS leaders spoke of the Father being the literal Father of Jesus, the same way mortal fathers are the fathers of their children.. That isn't cloning.. To say it is is a flat denial of your leaders teaching and the Biblical record..
Begotten means begotten,

Each of the words is to be understood literally. Only means only; Begotten means begotten; and Son means son. Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, pp. 546-47).

Maybe it's that you don't understand the literal leaning of the word begotten:

Begotten means to procreate. Some of it's synonyms are spawn, sire, breed, father.. Cloning is not to father it is to replicate..



Well there is that.. I don't meet many s t u p i d people..



I rule it out because to believe that Jesus is a clone means that he is a creation of some other being.. The Bible tell us that before the God of the Bible no other God was formed and that none will be formed after Him.. You can believe that the father took His own DNA, which he doesn't have to start with, and made another divine being from that sample.. But as I just pointed out no other God was formed before or after that divine being.. This God that you believe could have cloned Jesus also said that He doesn't even know that any other God exists.. And how long has this God been God? The Bible says from everlasting and will be God to everlasting.. Those p***ages smash your cloning nonsense or that Jesus was ever spiritually created by the Father.. UNLESS GOD IS A LIAR..



The Christian here didn't invent that idea.. It is one more garbage doctrine taught in mormonism by it's prophets..

The fleshly body of Jesus required a Mother as well as a Father. Therefore, the Father and Mother of Jesus, according to the flesh, must have been ***ociated together in the capacity of Husband and Wife; hence the Virgin Mary must have been, for the time being, the lawful wife of God the Father: we use the term lawful Wife, because it would be blasphemous in the highest degree to say that He overshadowed her or begat the Saviour unlawfully. It would have been unlawful for any man to have interfered with Mary, who was already espoused to Joseph; for such a heinous crime would have subjected both the guilty parties to death, according to the law of Moses. But God having created all men and women, had the most perfect right to do with His own creation, according to His holy will and pleasure: He had a lawful right to overshadow the Virgin Mary in the capacity of a husband, and beget a Son (The Seer, p. 158)

See we only tell you the truth of what the foundational leaders of mormonism had taught.. You don't believe it is is you that in unknowingly out of step with the teachings of the LDS church..



Really which of his claims were wrong.. I didn't see even one that was out of step with the teaCHING OF THE PREEXISTANCE..


Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (known informally by the nickname Mormons) believe the Bible. Indeed, so literally and completely do their beliefs and practices conform to the teachings of the Bible that it is not uncommon to hear informed persons say: 'If all men believed the Bible, all would be Mormons.' Bible doctrine is Mormon doctrine, and Mormon doctrine is Bible doctrine. They are one and the same" (What The Mormons Think of Christ, p. 2).



Then you deny the teachings of your prophets and leaders that most LDS believe God set before the church as teachers, those holding the message of God for the church.. You are NOT a mormon, you deny their teachings, you have even gone above the command to not establish your own righteousness. You have rebelled even against the lies that Smith and his followers have taught.. Take this cloning nonsense to Sunday School and see how it play out there.. You are NOT in agreement with the Bible nor the false teachings of mormonism. You have become a clone of Bert..



The Bible teaches that Jesus is the image of the invisible God.. So if He were a clone he would be invisible.. How can you, I, or Joseph Smith see that which is invisible? How many times do you need to see Isaiah 9:6.. Jesus is the Child that was born unto us and he is the Mighty God, he is the Everlasting Father.. Make it all fit into your beliefs or deny it all.. Looks like to me you have denied it all..




If that is possible show me one instance that it has been done.. Your church teaches that the Father was the literal father of Jesus.. You deny That.. The Bible teaches that Mary was found to be with Child of the Holy Spirit.. Cloning would mean that Jesus would be like the father in every way.. Your own teachers said that Jesus inherited the ability to conquer death from the Father. From His mother he received the ability to die.. If he was a clone he wouldn't have any human traits at all.. He could never have died.. His death proves your theory wrong.. IHS jim

I hate it when I am always correct, don't you?
Anyways, if you are saying Jesus is a clone of His Father that means they are two of exactly the same kind, as in DNA of Heavenly persons? If this is so then we Christians are saying The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost are Three Presons of the same substance, ie, The Trinity! Thanks you for proving our Doctrine, so now go and tell yor LDSinc. Friends they are wrong and come on over.

[nrajeffreturns]

Anyways, if you are saying Jesus is a clone of His Father that means they are two of exactly the same kind, as in DNA of Heavenly persons?
I am not saying He is. Nor am I saying He isn't. I am saying that it's not impossible AND that it is supported by Bible verses. And yes, if Jesus and His Father are like each other in every way, like the Bible verse claims, then this could agree with the Greek word monogenes.
"single of its kind, only. used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents); used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God."


If this is so then we Christians are saying The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost are Three Presons of the same substance, ie, The Trinity!
The problem is that most Trinitarians interpret that as meaning that all 3 persons are literally one being, and that is a false doctrine.


Thanks you for proving our Doctrine,
All I have done is proven your doctrine false. If you create a child via cloning, that child is still a separate being. If you were to say that you and your child are literally one being, people would laugh at the absurdity of the idea.

[nrajeffreturns]

My inner beauty Queen, Miss Interpreted, was confused by what your were saying to Jim about clones and human reproduction. But since you are not suggesting that Jesus is not an exact replica you then saying then saying that Jesus is a clone of the Father?
As I told RFH, I believe it's not impossible, especially when we see how certain Bible verses support it. That doesn't mean that I am stating it's correct.


Reminds me of a Carly Simon song "You're So Vague" :) If it is so vague what is it that you think you are challenging?
You made an ***ertion about "some accounts published by TCJCLDS" but you failed to quote or even give a reference to any of them, so readers could see if there is any validity to your ***ertion.

[RealFakeHair]

I am not saying He is. Nor am I saying He isn't. I am saying that it's not impossible AND that it is supported by Bible verses. And yes, if Jesus and His Father are like each other in every way, like the Bible verse claims, then this could agree with the Greek word monogenes.
"single of its kind, only. used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents); used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God."
Okay, so let this little ol 74- IQ country boy try and understand. You are not saying Jesus was born

The problem is that most Trinitarians interpret that as meaning that all 3 persons are literally one being, and that is a false doctrine.


All I have done is proven your doctrine false. If you create a child via cloning, that child is still a separate being. If you were to say that you and your child are literally one being, people would laugh at the absurdity of the idea.

Okay, so let this little ol 74- IQ country boy try and understand. You are not saying Jesus was born of the Holy Ghost?
Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
You are not saying He was cloned, or whatever, and even though Brigham Young, explains in a way everyone understood in his day to mean, The LDSinc, jesus was born of...
The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood—was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers," (Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 115).





(Following is a stenographic report of the address President Joseph F. Smith delivered at the Sunday morning session of the recent quarterly conference.-Ed.) Now, little boys and girls, when you are confronted by infidels in the world who know nothing of how Christ was begotten, you can say he was born just as the infidel was begotten and born, so was Christ begotten by his Father, who is also our Father-the Father of our spirits-and he was born of his mother Mary.

Now, Nrajeffofnoreturn, I'll ask you as I did (Sir). How were you born of your Father?

[nrajeffreturns]

Okay, so let this little ol 74- IQ country boy try and understand. You are not saying Jesus was born of the Holy Ghost?
How do you know the Holy Ghost didn't play a part in the conception? If the Bible says He did, then I believe it.
But the Bible does not say that Jesus is the son of the Holy Ghost. It says that Jesus is the Son of God the Father.


You are not saying He was cloned, or whatever, and even though Brigham Young, explains in a way everyone understood in his day to mean,
How do you know everyone understood what he meant? Anyway, you are confusing conception with birth. The 2 are not the same.


The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood—was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers," (Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 115).

(... when you are confronted by infidels in the world who know nothing of how Christ was begotten, you can say he was born just as the infidel was begotten and born, so was Christ begotten by his Father, who is also our Father-the Father of our spirits-and he was born of his mother Mary.


Now, Nrajeffofnoreturn, I'll ask you as I did (Sir). How were you born of your Father?
Have you figured out yet that you are mixing terms? It is entirely possible to be conceived through cloning, and be born like most babies are born.

[James Banta]

[nrajeffreturns;148896]How do you know the Holy Ghost didn't play a part in the conception? If the Bible says He did, then I believe it.
But the Bible does not say that Jesus is the son of the Holy Ghost. It says that Jesus is the Son of God the Father.

The Bible teaches that Jesus is the Son of God.. It says that right there is Luke 1:35

Luke 1:35
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

God, not just the person of the Father.. There is ONE GOD as Jesus confirmed (Mark 12:29).. If there is one God then that one God is the God of whom Jesus is the Son.. But in Matthew 1:18 Mary is said to be found with child of the Holy Ghost. Since the Holy Spirit is confirmed to be God in Acts 5:3-4, then Mary was with Child of the one true and living God.. THERE ARE NOT THREE GODS.. The Holy Spirit is God. So we know that the Holy Spirit did have something to do with the conception. Mary was found to be with Child of the Holy Spirit.. That is Biblical truth and agrees perfectly with Moses in Deut 6:4, With Jesus in Mark 12:29, and Isaiah in Isa 43:10, 44:8.. Just how does the doctrine that we have the Gods not contradict with those p***ages?


How do you know everyone understood what he meant? Anyway, you are confusing conception with birth. The 2 are not the same.

I don't know how you know we are confusing conception with birth. We are only saying that Mary was found to be with Child of the Holy Spirit.. That was during her pregnancy not as she gave birth.. That was a result of the Child being BEGOTTEN of the Holy Spirit.. That wasn't His birth. It was the conception.. President Young taught that Jesus was conceived by the Father the same nature way that our fathers begot us.. That is what we, the Christian of the forum, have been saying Young claimed the whole time we have been discussing the anti Biblical teaching of mormonism as to the conception of Jesus.. Mormonism teaches that Elohim has physical sex with His daughter Mary..



The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood—was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers," (Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 115).

That is what he said now LOOK at it "it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood—was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers".. Young, whether he understood what he was saying or not spoke of two different events. Pne The birth of Jesus being a natural event.. We all agree with that.. Mary gave birth to Jesus the same way all women give a natural birth.. The problem come in how Jesus was begotten.. Was it the same way all fathers beget their children or was that a supernatural event.. A miracle of God when God created the physical body in the womb of Mary to develop and grow into a viable baby..


(... when you are confronted by infidels in the world who know nothing of how Christ was begotten, you can say he was born just as the infidel was begotten and born, so was Christ begotten by his Father, who is also our Father-the Father of our spirits-and he was born of his mother Mary.

As I have said there is no argument with the natural nature of the birth of Jesus.. It was perfectly natural. But you add that His conception was also a natural event.. That is just so wrong when the whole story of who God is and what He did to cause Mary to be with Child. She was WITH CHILD OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. In Him rests the power of the Highest. He is God.. So The Holy Thing that was born from Mary's womb is called the Son of God, That agrees with the account found in Luke.. Jeff you can't disregard Matthew because you don't like what is taught there.. How does the Biblical truth fit into the LDS theory of of the conception of Jesus being begotten by the VISIBLE and TANGIBLE Glorified man?


Have you figured out yet that you are mixing terms? It is entirely possible to be conceived through cloning, and be born like most babies are born.

I am not confused at all Begotten is the conception.. Birth is when Jesus came into the world as a viable Baby.. I think you are thinking of them as the same event through.. It is clear that the Holy Spirit was the Person were by Mary was made to be with Child and I believe that He was at the Birth of the Lord but still the Birth was a natural event. Can't you see the difference? IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

The Bible teaches that Jesus is the Son of God.
Not just Jesus. It teaches that Adam was the son of God, too. And it mentions the sons of God doing things. You believe it teaches that you are a son of God, too. So what makes Jesus different from all other sons of God? How is Jesus unique? The Bible says that of all the sons of God, only Jesus was begotten by Him, and only Jesus is like Him in every way, so closely resembling His Father that the 2 are virtually one. Sounds like how one would describe a clone, an exact copy.


Just how does the doctrine that we have the Gods not contradict with those p***ages?
Your doctrine says that Jesus is the Son of the only True God, which is biblical, but your doctrine also says that Jesus is the son of the Holy Spirit, which is false. When Jesus talked about His Father in Heaven, He was referring, every time, to God the Father, not to the Holy Spirit.



I don't know how you know we are confusing conception with birth.
It's easy to know that. I just look at how you use quotes referring to Jesus' birth to attack what you believe to be LDS doctrine regarding His conception.


Mormonism teaches that Elohim has physical sex with His daughter Mary..
You just made a false statement.


That is what he said now LOOK at it "it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood—was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers".
"It"? What is the "it"?

"The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood - was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers,"



Mary gave birth to Jesus the same way all women give a natural birth.. See? Even you should see your problem now.


The problem come in how Jesus was begotten.. Was it the same way all fathers beget their children or was that a supernatural event.. A miracle of God when God created the physical body in the womb of Mary to develop and grow into a viable baby..
Did Young teach that the conception of Jesus was NOT a miracle?


Jeff you can't disregard Matthew because you don't like what is taught there..
I like what is taught there. It supports LDS doctrine.


How does the Biblical truth fit into the LDS theory of of the conception of Jesus being begotten by the VISIBLE and TANGIBLE Glorified man?
It fits LDS doctrine better than it does with Trinitarianism.


It is clear that the Holy Spirit was the Person were by Mary was made to be with Child and I believe that He was at the Birth of the Lord but still the Birth was a natural event.
If the Holy Spirit was the ONLY person who was involved with Mary's pregnancy, then WHY did Jesus claim that His Father was ANOTHER person?

[James Banta]

[nrajeffreturns;148914]Not just Jesus. It teaches that Adam was the son of God, too. And it mentions the sons of God doing things. You believe it teaches that you are a son of God, too. So what makes Jesus different from all other sons of God? How is Jesus unique? The Bible says that of all the sons of God, only Jesus was begotten by Him, and only Jesus is like Him in every way, so closely resembling His Father that the 2 are virtually one. Sounds like how one would describe a clone, an exact copy.

The Bible does teach that Adam was the son of God.. It never teaches that He was the only begotten Son of God.. That is a distinction only for Jesus.. All of the angelic host are called son of God, but they too are not the only begotten Sons of God.. That is what makes Jesus unique. The Bible does not teach that all men are the sons of God.. If it does you have a great opportunity to instruct me.. I know of one place it comes close, but it adds that only those who hold faith in Jesus are sons of God.. I think you are wrong AGAIN.. But that is quite a common occurrence when you post..

Is Jesus a copy of the Father, NO! Jesus is God, the Father is God, and because there in only One God they are one in their divinity. Jesus is the image of the INVISIBLE GOD.. Jesus was NOT INVISIBLE. Therefore He does not look like the Father.. He must be the image in other ways than in how He looks..


Your doctrine says that Jesus is the Son of the only True God, which is biblical, but your doctrine also says that Jesus is the son of the Holy Spirit, which is false. When Jesus talked about His Father in Heaven, He was referring, every time, to God the Father, not to the Holy Spirit.

What is this? Do I hear you denying the Holy Spirit? Is He not refereed to as God in the Bible (Acts 5:3-4)? How many Gods does the Bible teach are true Gods? ONE! Since the Holy Spirit is called God in the scripture He must be the one true God as the Father and the Son are God.. Is not He is a false God and I really don't believe you want to go there. Remember the Bible teaches that Mary was found to be with Child of the Holy Spirit.. You can deny that but that is also a denial of the Holy Spirit in saying that He caused the writers of the scripture to record lies, or that Jesus lied in saying that His word was perverted (DIED) when he promised that heaven and earth would die before His word does.. In short The Holy Spirit is God and therefore the Child Mary was found to carry is indeed the Son of God..


It's easy to know that. I just look at how you use quotes referring to Jesus' birth to attack what you believe to be LDS doctrine regarding His conception.
What that makes no sense at all.. I have used quotes from the Bible that prove that God is one Lord both from Moses and from Jesus as He confirmed the doctrine (Deut 6:4. Mark 12:29).. I have supported that doctrine in the the teaching of God though the prophet Isaiah (Isaiah 43:10, 44:8).. I have seen the LDS try to justify their doctrine by saying that these teachings are "Only for this world". But wait, The Father, Son , and Holy Spirit are the God of this world. According to mormonism that makes three Gods not one as the Bible teaches (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 473).. How else can I use the quotes from your "prophets" other than to post what they actually communicate?


You just made a false statement.

Oh yes I have seen many a mormon deny that point but sexual relations is the natural way that a baby is begotten, By your own admission that is just the way that the LDS church has been taught by it's prophets that Jesus was begotten.. So is my statement false? Only if you play fast and loose with what your leaders have taught as to how and who Fathered Jesus..



"It"? What is the "it"?

"The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood - was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers,"

I was going to quote that same statement but you have so let's take a close look at what it says.. The "It" you question is the Birth of Jesus, I agree. But Young teaches that that Jesus' birth was the result of the NATURAL ACTION of partaking of flesh and blood. That He was begotten sired, procreated, by the Father as we were begotten of our fathers.. Tell me what does a father have to do with the birth of His child other than to be the cause for the conception of the child in the first place? NOTHING.. A|t that time all the father can do is stand back and watch. It is totally out of his hands. Other than the way God created our natural world; the Birth of Jesus had nothing to do with divine intervention.. It was natural. The conception of His body in the womb of Mary was where Jesus was begotten and that was by God, the Holy Spirit (Matthew 1:18)..


See? Even you should see your problem now.

I do see the problem. You believe that begetting is birth when begetting is the method by with conception takes place.. Yes the problem is you see Young's statement as speaking of just the birth of Jesus while ignoring the time He was begotten.. No one is begotten at birth. That takes place 9 months before birth..


Did Young teach that the conception of Jesus was NOT a miracle?

Yes he did.. That is the problem.. He denies that the Mary was found to be with Child of the Holy Spirit.. He denies the scripture that teaches that God is Spirit, that He is invisible. He created his own God in his image instead of allowing that God created us in His image.. So yes Young taught that the conception of Jesus was not a miracle but instead as natural as the way we were begotten of our fathers..


I like what is taught there. It supports LDS doctrine.

If you believe that the Father having sexual relations with Mary is LDS doctrine then yes it supports that claim.. Is that what you really believe LDS doctrine is?


It fits LDS doctrine better than it does with Trinitarianism.

I agree Young Statements does fit better with LDS doctrine than it fits with Trinitarianism. Some how I would except a mormon prophets teaching to match with what his church teaches better than with what his church calls a lie..


If the Holy Spirit was the ONLY person who was involved with Mary's pregnancy, then WHY did Jesus claim that His Father was ANOTHER person?

Good question and the answer is found in the doctrine of the Trinity. The Father is the same Being as the Holy Spirit. Yes, they are separate persons but they are the same essence. The same God.. What is done by the Holy Spirit is done by the Father, and the Son.. Because they are One God.. Because Jesus has always existed as God, He was also there at His own conception as much as the Father was. Still the actual creation of His flesh was the action of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 1:18).. The ONLY way you can teach different is to deny the Scripture, and in so doing deny the promises of Jesus that His word would never die. As you do that you call Jesus a liar and therefore deny that He is God.. Denial that the scripture as the truth is a slippery slope.. I am concerned that you have taken steps to slide down that slope.. IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

How do you know the Holy Ghost didn't play a part in the conception? If the Bible says He did, then I believe it.
But the Bible does not say that Jesus is the son of the Holy Ghost. It says that Jesus is the Son of God the Father.


How do you know everyone understood what he meant? Anyway, you are confusing conception with birth. The 2 are not the same.


The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood—was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers," (Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 115).

(... when you are confronted by infidels in the world who know nothing of how Christ was begotten, you can say he was born just as the infidel was begotten and born, so was Christ begotten by his Father, who is also our Father-the Father of our spirits-and he was born of his mother Mary.


Have you figured out yet that you are mixing terms? It is entirely possible to be conceived through cloning, and be born like most babies are born.

I like to mix bourbon and coke too, but that doesn't change the fact that bourbon is still bourbon and coke is still coke even after you mixed them together. The same why natural and begotten when mixed together, if you believe Brigham Young was your prophet and he was the LDSinc. spokesman for the mormon god, then yes if you are begotten by your father the same way the mormon jesus was begotten by his father, yes sex was used to procreate you, and your mormon jesus.

[James Banta]

I am amazed. We have had LDS posters here condemn Christianity for teaching the truth as it is recorded in the Bible.. That is why Christianity is the truth, because it conforms to completely to the Bible.. We believe that the Bible is God's message to man and that God doesn't lie.. Here the LDS have shown us that they DO NOT BELIEVE THE BIBLE, yet they claim to posses the only true and complete truth.. How can they hold the whole truth when they excommunicate men for taking more than one wife. A teaching that Joseph Smith taught was an eternal principle. How can they be teaching the truth when a prophet of God proclaimed Him to be Adam. At least that he is all the God whom we have to do.. The LDS church today also excommunicates those that hold and teach that doctrine.. A church that excommunicates it's members for believing principles that were taught by a prophet of God is like saying Jesus can't be the Lord because he agreed with Moses that the Lord our God in one Lord..

The LDS have not shown any Biblical doctrine that calls into question any part of the Christian doctrines I have presented here. All they have done is just called them wrong without any reference that they are wrong.. I don't believe they can come up with any scriptural evidence that these things are wrong, or that their doctrines that disagree with these points is in anyway Biblical.. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

The Bible does teach that Adam was the son of God.. It never teaches that He was the only begotten Son of God.. That is a distinction only for Jesus.. All of the angelic host are called son of God, but they too are not the only begotten Sons of God.. That is what makes Jesus unique.
That all agrees with LDS doctrine, so why are you stating it as a re****al?


The Bible does not teach that all men are the sons of God.. If it does you have a great opportunity to instruct me.. I know of one place it comes close, but it adds that only those who hold faith in Jesus are sons of God.. I think you are wrong AGAIN.. But that is quite a common occurrence when you post..
Did I claim that the Bible teaches that all men are the sons of God? No. So you are wrong AGAIN by claiming that I did. And that is quite a common occurrence when you post.


Is Jesus a copy of the Father, NO!
Is Jesus the express image of His person? Think before you say "NO!" because I quoted from the Bible.


What is this? Do I hear you denying the Holy Spirit?
No. Maybe you should get your hearing checked.


Is He not refereed to as God in the Bible (Acts 5:3-4)? How many Gods does the Bible teach are true Gods? ONE!
Jesus identified only His Father as the Only True God. That leaves out Jesus and the Holy Spirit from having that ti tle. Sorry, but that's what the Bible says, and you claim to believe every word of the Bible.


Since the Holy Spirit is called God in the scripture He must be the one true God as the Father and the Son are God..
You are wrong.


Is not He is a false God and I really don't believe you want to go there.
I do want to go there, because your incorrect beliefs about the Godhead deserve to be corrected.


Remember the Bible teaches that Mary was found to be with Child of the Holy Spirit..
Some Bibles put into a context that prevent misunderstandings like yours:

"...she was found to be pregnant [through the power] of the Holy Spirit." (AMP)

"...she became pregnant by the Holy Spirit." (CEB)

"...she was found to be pregnant from the Ruach HaKodesh." (CJB)

"... she learned that she was going to have a baby by God’s Holy Spirit." (CEV)

"...he learned that she was expecting a baby. (She was pregnant by the power of the Holy Spirit.)" (ERV)

And at least TEN OTHER Bibles use words like "of" or "from" or "By the power of" instead of "child of the Holy Spirit" so people like you won't jump to the wrong conclusion and think that Jesus is the Holy Spirit's child.

Here is a simple ****ogy to help you see your mistake: Suppose you and your wife wanted to have a baby, but the only way she could get pregnant was through in vitro fertilization. So you ask a fertility specialist named Dr. Jones to do the procedure. When the baby is born and people ask how this was able to happen, you answered "My wife was made pregnant by Dr. Jones." Can you see how some people might jump to the wrong conclusion?

Suppose your answer was "It was thanks to the abilities of Dr. Jones that my wife became pregnant" some people might correctly understand, but some might not.

If you said it like the some Bibles say it, "One day my wife was found to be with child of Dr. Jones," then some people might do exactly what you did, and jump to the conclusion that Dr. Jones is the father of your baby, when in fact YOU were the father, and Dr. Jones only helped her to become pregnant. Don't be like those people, Jim.

[RealFakeHair]

That all agrees with LDS doctrine, so why are you stating it as a re****al?


Did I claim that the Bible teaches that all men are the sons of God? No. So you are wrong AGAIN by claiming that I did. And that is quite a common occurrence when you post.


Is Jesus the express image of His person? Think before you say "NO!" because I quoted from the Bible.


No. Maybe you should get your hearing checked.


Jesus identified only His Father as the Only True God. That leaves out Jesus and the Holy Spirit from having that ti tle. Sorry, but that's what the Bible says, and you claim to believe every word of the Bible.


You are wrong.


I do want to go there, because your incorrect beliefs about the Godhead deserve to be corrected.


Some Bibles put into a context that prevent misunderstandings like yours:

"...she was found to be pregnant [through the power] of the Holy Spirit." (AMP)

"...she became pregnant by the Holy Spirit." (CEB)

"...she was found to be pregnant from the Ruach HaKodesh." (CJB)

"... she learned that she was going to have a baby by God’s Holy Spirit." (CEV)

"...he learned that she was expecting a baby. (She was pregnant by the power of the Holy Spirit.)" (ERV)

And at least TEN OTHER Bibles use words like "of" or "from" or "By the power of" instead of "child of the Holy Spirit" so people like you won't jump to the wrong conclusion and think that Jesus is the Holy Spirit's child.

Here is a simple ****ogy to help you see your mistake: Suppose you and your wife wanted to have a baby, but the only way she could get pregnant was through in vitro fertilization. So you ask a fertility specialist named Dr. Jones to do the procedure. When the baby is born and people ask how this was able to happen, you answered "My wife was made pregnant by Dr. Jones." Can you see how some people might jump to the wrong conclusion?

Suppose your answer was "It was thanks to the abilities of Dr. Jones that my wife became pregnant" some people might correctly understand, but some might not.

If you said it like the some Bibles say it, "One day my wife was found to be with child of Dr. Jones," then some people might do exactly what you did, and jump to the conclusion that Dr. Jones is the father of your baby, when in fact YOU were the father, and Dr. Jones only helped her to become pregnant. Don't be like those people, Jim.

Have you ever stopped to wonder why your prophets when out of their way to contradict the Holy Bible when they said the mormon jesus ws begotten the same way you were begotten by your father?
Once again you have no answer because the answer is so none-21 centry LDSinc. It's not the Christian's fault we bring it to your attention the fact, and yes it is a fact; Brigham Young, taught your mormon god had physcial relations with his earthly daughter Mary. Why else would your mormon god need to come down to earth if he didn't have sex with Mary. He could have air-mailed his seed to her and had the mormon holy spirit injected her, but no your prophets when out of their way to say he the mormon god came and delivered it himself.

[Billyray]

The Bible does teach that Adam was the son of God.. It never teaches that He was the only begotten Son of God.. That is a distinction only for Jesus.. All of the angelic host are called son of God, but they too are not the only begotten Sons of God.. That is what makes Jesus unique.

That all agrees with LDS doctrine. . .
Brigham Young
"Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is Michael, the Archangel, the Ancient of Days! about whom holy men have written and spoken -- He is our Father, and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 50).

Why did one of your prophets teach that Adam was "our Father and our God"?

[nrajeffreturns]

Have you ever stopped to wonder why your prophets when out of their way to contradict the Holy Bible when they said the mormon jesus ws begotten the same way you were begotten by your father?
I don't stop to wonder why people do things that they actually DIDN'T do, because that would be illogical.


Once again you have no answer
Once again I DID answer your ridiculous, fallacious "question."

[James Banta]

I don't stop to wonder why people do things that they actually DIDN'T do, because that would be illogical.


Once again I DID answer your ridiculous, fallacious "question."

We have shown you the quote and the reference.. And you still deny it? You have used the quote in your own post, but you now deny it? Do you deny that the LDS version of the Father is a glorified man? Do you deny that the NATURAL way of procreation is sexual intercourse? Will you again dismiss these questions as ridiculous, or will you finally face the truth of the teaching of both Smith, Young and even more modern GAs like McConkie. Are you still reluctant to admit to yourself that LDS men changed the Bible to suite their private doctrines all based in sex? Denying that Mary was with Child of the Holy Spirit? Are you ready to see that Young was a false teacher of false Gods, teaching that Adam was his God and not the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? When will questions that have an effect on your eternal destiny become serious to you and not just ridiculous, and fallacious questions? IHS jim

[Billyray]

Have you ever stopped to wonder why your prophets when out of their way to contradict the Holy Bible when they said the mormon jesus ws begotten the same way you were begotten by your father?



Once again I DID answer your ridiculous, fallacious "question."
BRIGHAM YOUNG
"The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood—was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers," (Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 115).

Didn't Brigham Young say that Jesus was begotten by his Father as we were of our fathers?

[James Banta]

BRIGHAM YOUNG
"The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood—was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers," (Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 115).

Didn't Brigham Young say that Jesus was begotten by his Father as we were of our fathers?

Yes and just because Young statement was begun with saying that the Saviors BIRTH was a natural event, didn't tie his tongue to stop speaking of the natural way he taught that he was begotten.. Being begotten is not birth. It is the very first step in the procreation process.. It is the only part of the process a father has anything physically to do with.. IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

I can understand why TBMs run from Brigham Young's statement, it's really embarr***ing in 21 th centry America, just as it was danggerous in 19 th centry America to say such. It was also dmbarr***ing and dangerous for Joseph Smith jr. And his hanky-panky revelation of polygamy.

[Billyray]

"It"? What is the "it"?

"The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood - was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers,
Jeff how were you "begotten"?

[nrajeffreturns]

Jeff how were you "begotten"?

Just like that scripture says: I partook of a flesh and blood body that my spirit now inhabits. If your story differs from that, then: How did you manage to avoid doing that when YOU were begotten???

[Billyray]

Jeff how were you "begotten"?

. . .I partook of a flesh and blood body that my spirit now inhabits. . .

So you would define the word "begotten" as--"I partook of a flesh and blood body that my spirit now inhabits". Is that correct?

[RealFakeHair]

just like that scripture says: I partook of a flesh and blood body that my spirit now inhabits. If your story differs from that, then: How did you manage to avoid doing that when you were begotten???

bs. Alert!

[James Banta]

Just like that scripture says: I partook of a flesh and blood body that my spirit now inhabits. If your story differs from that, then: How did you manage to avoid doing that when YOU were begotten???

That isn't a loaded question now is it jeff? Nahh you wouldn't do that.. yeah right.. Ok remember I told you that your questions were easily answered in the scripture.. Here we go.. Jesus is God and has existed as God from everlasting and will continue to exist as God to everlasting (Psalm 90:2). For Him to enter mortality how else could that happen unless He took on flesh? Our (mankind's) spirits on the other hand were created within us (Zechariah 12:1).. A spirit is not created within a spirit is it? Isn't the LDS thinking on that, that our intelligences were clothed in a spirit body? A intelligence is not a spirit child of God is it? Isn't it an eternal (what ever it is)? It's not physical and it's not spirit so a (what ever is it) describes it best.. So when God tells us that He created the spirits of men within them, He must mean a physical body.. According to the Bible there is no preexistence..

Yes I "avoided" having my spirit partake of flesh.. My spirit was created within my flesh.. I agree with God in His word. I wished the LDS church and it's members did.. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

So you would define the word "begotten" as--"I partook of a flesh and blood body that my spirit now inhabits". Is that correct?
No, you are incorrect as usual, since that wouldn't be a definition IMO. The question was "HOW were you begotten?" not "Define begotten."

[Billyray]

The question was "HOW were you begotten?" not "Define begotten."
But your statement redefines the word begotten. How did you come up with this definition?

[Snow Patrol]

Jeff how were you "begotten"?

How was Jesus, the Son, begotten of the Father? The scriptures do say that the Son is the only begotten of the Father, right?

[James Banta]

How was Jesus, the Son, begotten of the Father? The scriptures do say that the Son is the only begotten of the Father, right?

Yes and it says that He was begotten of the Holy Spirit too.. If we say that the Bible is the truth how do we rectify these statements? Mormonism fails to do so and instead of submitting to the word of God it calls the scripture distorted, and corrupted. I say that in the doctrine of the Trinity both statements are true.. Jesus was begotten of the Holy Spirit since He is God, and He was begotten of the Father, since the Father is God. It fits into the Trinity like a glove but clashes with mormonism.. The Bible must be changed to make mormonism work, but not so with the Christian doctrine of the Trinity.. So the way Jesus can be the only begotten of the Father , and be begotten of the Holy Spirit, is if they are the one and only true and living God.. Anything else makes the Bible a lie. Is that what you are doing making the Bible into a lie? IHS jim

[Snow Patrol]

Yes and it says that He was begotten of the Holy Spirit too..

Begotten how? It seems some people here only have one interpretation of the word.

[Billyray]

How was Jesus, the Son, begotten of the Father? The scriptures do say that the Son is the only begotten of the Father, right?
BRIGHAM YOUNG
"The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood—was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers," (Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 115).

Brigham Young said the Jesus "was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers".

Do you agree with Brigham?

[James Banta]

BRIGHAM YOUNG
"The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood—was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers," (Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 115).

Brigham Young said the Jesus "was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers".

Do you agree with Brigham?

Like the LDS do with the Bible they pick and choose what parts of B. Young's teachings they will and won't believe.. After all they ONLY believe he was a prophet of God.. IHS jim

[Snow Patrol]

Like the LDS do with the Bible they pick and choose what parts of B. Young's teachings they will and won't believe.. After all they ONLY believe he was a prophet of God.. IHS jim

If you'll answer this then it might help clear up the subject a little.

Begotten how? It seems some people here only have one interpretation of the word.

[RealFakeHair]

If you'll answer this then it might help clear up the subject a little.

Begotten how? It seems some people here only have one interpretation of the word.

Why worry bout how some people here iterpret begotten, just go by what Brigham Young, said.

[Snow Patrol]

Why worry bout how some people here iterpret begotten, just go by what Brigham Young, said.

Why worry about it? Because if there are different interpretations of what that Bible says why can't there be different understandings of what B. Y. said? We can't ask him to clarify what he meant. What I believe he was saying was that the LDS believe that Jesus is the actual Only Begotten Son of the FATHER dispeling other's beliefs that Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit.

Ezra Taft Benson taught "He was the Only Begotten Son of our Heavenly Father in the flesh—the only child whose mortal body was begotten by our Heavenly Father. His mortal mother, Mary, was called a virgin, both before and after she gave birth."

Now that is a very clear statement, without ambiguity, that portrays the true LDS belief on the subject.

[RealFakeHair]

Why worry about it? Because if there are different interpretations of what that Bible says why can't there be different understandings of what B. Y. said? We can't ask him to clarify what he meant. What I believe he was saying was that the LDS believe that Jesus is the actual Only Begotten Son of the FATHER dispeling other's beliefs that Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit.

Ezra Taft Benson taught "He was the Only Begotten Son of our Heavenly Father in the flesh—the only child whose mortal body was begotten by our Heavenly Father. His mortal mother, Mary, was called a virgin, both before and after she gave birth."

Now that is a very clear statement, without ambiguity, that portrays the true LDS belief on the subject.

look just stop the BS! I admit my patiences are running short on this subject because we all know what Brigham Young meant. It goes side by side with Joseph Smith jr. SEX addiction. Here is just one of many tidbits; “Thousands of Nauvoo Mormons search[ed] for Orson Pratt after discovering a suicide note. They find him distraught because Smith, according to Pratt's wife, had tried to seduce Pratt's wife Sarah.
Joseph Smit jr. Said The mormon god is a god of flesh and bone.....ie .God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret... [Y]ou have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you..."
Yes, you TBMs believe your god is a god just like yourself, the only difference is you are not exalted yet, but the workings of begotten is still the same....ie.."If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son? What Joseph Smith jr. Is laying down is the LDS doctine of Heavenly hanky-panky is in no way different then the earthly hanky-panky and Brigham Young put it to words more clear than you are confortable with....ie...Christ was begotten by an immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers." (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 547
"The Father came down and begat him, the same as we do now..." (The Complete Discourses of Brigham Young, vol. 1, p. 321; February 16, 1849, Salt Lake City.
"The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood - was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 115).
I love this last statement even more......ie.."God has made His children like Himself to stand erect, and has endowed them with intelligence and power and dominion over all His works, and given them the same attributes which He himself possesses. He created man, as we create our children; for there is no other process of creation in heaven, on the earth, in the earth, or under the earth, or in all the eternities, that is, that were, or that ever will be." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 11, pp. 122-123)

[Sir]

look just stop the BS! I admit my patiences are running short on this subject ...

Well, sure! Because it exposes the fact you could be wrong. Anti-LDS don't like to be shown that their ideas and views could be incorrect. Their pride has them believing that theirs is the only right way and everyone else is wrong.

[RealFakeHair]

Well, sure! Because it exposes the fact you could be wrong. Anti-LDS don't like to be shown that their ideas and views could be incorrect. Their pride has them believing that theirs is the only right way and everyone else is wrong.

Either you are another Obama with your words, or else you suffer from cognitive dissonance of the third kind. Joseph Smith jr. was a sex predator of the first kind, and Brigham Young was just trying to put it in the plain english. Nature and begotten.

[Sir]

Either you are another Obama with your words, or else you suffer from cognitive dissonance of the third kind.

Neither.

But I understand you are simply emoting out of angst and your patience is rather thin, so......

[Snow Patrol]

Well, sure! Because it exposes the fact you could be wrong. Anti-LDS don't like to be shown that their ideas and views could be incorrect. Their pride has them believing that theirs is the only right way and everyone else is wrong.

And when someone has that particular subject on the brain a lot, well then they start to read that into everything.

[nrajeffreturns]

...we all know what Brigham Young meant....

That is a false statement. Not only is it false to say that we all know what he meant, it is also false to say that there is even an official doctrine among the LDS as to what BY meant.

It's kind of interesting to see an outsider:

a. tell us how we should interpret our own leader's statements; and

b. tell us that we all know what an author meant when what that author said was quite ambiguous.

[James Banta]

That is a false statement. Not only is it false to say that we all know what he meant, it is also false to say that there is even an official doctrine among the LDS as to what BY meant.

It's kind of interesting to see an outsider:

a. tell us how we should interpret our own leader's statements; and

b. tell us that we all know what an author meant when what that author said was quite ambiguous.

Most of his wildly false teaching were very clear.. He clearly taught that Adam was God.. He went so far as to teach tat he was the ONLY GOD with whom we had to do.. There is no question in his meaning. He was teaching in the name of another God.. Other than the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.. There was no ambiguity in that. He was flat teaching sin to the LDS.. IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

That is a false statement. Not only is it false to say that we all know what he meant, it is also false to say that there is even an official doctrine among the LDS as to what BY meant.

It's kind of interesting to see an outsider:

a. tell us how we should interpret our own leader's statements; and

b. tell us that we all know what an author meant when what that author said was quite ambiguous.

Once again, just asks yourself' "Why did Brigham Young, go to all the trouble to explain, natural, and begotten?
Why didn't your prophets just let the Holy Bible speak for itself and not add any thing to wht was understood by Christians for 1800 years?
Sex, is the only explanation.

[Snow Patrol]

Once again, just asks yourself' "Why did Brigham Young, go to all the trouble to explain, natural, and begotten?
Why didn't your prophets just let the Holy Bible speak for itself and not add any thing to wht was understood by Christians for 1800 years?
Sex, is the only explanation.

"Why didn't your prophets just let the Holy Bible speak for itself and not add any thing to wht was understood by Christians for 1800 years?"

That is exactly why. Because he was teaching that Christians have gotten it wrong to 1800 years. Many still teach today that Christ was begat/conceived whatever you want to call it BY the Holy Spirit .

[James Banta]

"Why didn't your prophets just let the Holy Bible speak for itself and not add any thing to wht was understood by Christians for 1800 years?"

That is exactly why. Because he was teaching that Christians have gotten it wrong to 1800 years. Many still teach today that Christ was begat/conceived whatever you want to call it BY the Holy Spirit .

Because all Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. (2 Timothy 3:16-17).. It is not open to be changed by the will of men to create their own gods in their image. To bestow on then the physical attributes Smith and Young were so very fond of.. Namely sexual contact with women.. The Bible teaches that "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.".. It wasn't the Church that made changes there. The Church trusted that which we have in the scripture is God's unadulterated message to mankind. It was the 19th century cultists that made changes.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

If you'll answer this then it might help clear up the subject a little.

Begotten how? It seems some people here only have one interpretation of the word.

The reference is Luke clears that up..

Luke 1:35
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Is the Holy Spirit refereed to as God? YES! He is God, just as it is recorded in Acts 5:3-4.. Just because a 19th century man that called himself a prophet denied the Holy Spirit's divinity doesn't make his denials the truth, especially because he so clearly disagreed with the Bible.. It come down on who we will believe. Jesus promised to keep His word alive for us.. Smith and his followers denounced the purity of the word of God.. I believe Jesus no matter how many mere men tell me that it is impossible that I have the very real meaning God first gave to apostles and prophets to record and give to us.. Jesus doesn't lie.. Men do.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Why worry about it? Because if there are different interpretations of what that Bible says why can't there be different understandings of what B. Y. said? We can't ask him to clarify what he meant. What I believe he was saying was that the LDS believe that Jesus is the actual Only Begotten Son of the FATHER dispeling other's beliefs that Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit.

Ezra Taft Benson taught "He was the Only Begotten Son of our Heavenly Father in the flesh—the only child whose mortal body was begotten by our Heavenly Father. His mortal mother, Mary, was called a virgin, both before and after she gave birth."

Now that is a very clear statement, without ambiguity, that portrays the true LDS belief on the subject.

There are no "different interpretations of what that Bible says" in regard to the Gospel.. There is no difference in believing the Bible that the Mary was found to be with Child of the Holy Spirit.. Only Mormonism believe that the Heavenly Father has a physical body, and begot the Son in the same natural way a mortal Father begets his children.. There is nothing that is ambiguous about that either.. Only when it is twisted to try to say something other than what it clearly states is any ambiguity added.. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

Most of his wildly false teaching were very clear.
That statement worries me, Jim. Actual experts on the subject aren't sure what BY intended these p***ages to mean. So for someone (like yourself) who is at the beginner level on the subject to claim the intended meaning is very clear, raises some red flags.


He clearly taught that Adam was God.. He went so far as to teach tat he was the ONLY GOD with whom we had to do.. There is no question in his meaning.
If you actually read it in context, he was probably saying that Adam, who is called the son of God in the Bible, is the only god who is the patriarch of the human race.

I should add this: If BY believed the Pearl of Great Price story about God the Father and His Son Jesus visiting and teaching Adam and Eve in the Garden, then that makes it HIGHLY unlikely that BY believed that Adam was also God the Father.

Can you see why?

[nrajeffreturns]

Once again, just asks yourself' "Why did Brigham Young, go to all the trouble to explain, natural, and begotten?
I asked myself that decades ago, and the answer is: Because some Christians, maybe even some LDS ones, had adopted the belief that the virgin birth story was just an illusion because Jesus was too holy to REALLY, actually become a mortal, physical being. Some Christian offshoot sects believed that to be mortal was a terrible thing, it was the opposite of being spiritual, so someone as spiritual and godly as Jesus would never really stoop so low as to become one of us, when to be bodiless was the ideal condition to be in.


Why didn't your prophets just let the Holy Bible speak for itself and not add any thing to wht was understood by Christians for 1800 years?
Christians have been getting stuff wrong for over 1900 years. Heck, if Calvinism is correct, then it implies that Christianity had been messed up for over 1400 years, and it wasn't until Calvin came along that things got corrected.



Sex, is the only explanation.
It is to people who are obsessed with sex being the answer to everything, I guess.

[RealFakeHair]

"Why didn't your prophets just let the Holy Bible speak for itself and not add any thing to wht was understood by Christians for 1800 years?"

That is exactly why. Because he was teaching that Christians have gotten it wrong to 1800 years. Many still teach today that Christ was begat/conceived whatever you want to call it BY the Holy Spirit .

Well it seems we are getting somewhere here. First, Christians believe by the powerof the Holy Ghost Jesus was Elohim's only begotten Son, and Mary was a Virgin at Jesus's birth. Even today Catholic's believe Mary was a virgin even after she gave birth to other children, which of course is nutty, but that is another story for another time, and place.
We Christians believe Elohim is Spirit, as the word of God tells us, and we don't try to go beyond what the Scriptures says on the subject.
Second. Joseph Smith jr. put LDSinc. in a box with his King Follet sermon; God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!.
Here is a strange part of his sermon; Jesus, Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. It seems the mormon jesus wasn't the first to be sacificed for his spirit children or brothers? Do you wish to explain that?
It seems to me the only difference between mortal and inmortal beings is blood in LDSinc. Doctrine.
So now that Joseph Smith jr. Has put the LDSinc. in a box Brigham Young, came along an wrapped the box with bobwire, electricfied bobwire that no TBMs wish to touch in 21 th centry mormonism, and who can blame you?

[RealFakeHair]

That is a false statement. Not only is it false to say that we all know what he meant, it is also false to say that there is even an official doctrine among the LDS as to what BY meant.

It's kind of interesting to see an outsider:

a. tell us how we should interpret our own leader's statements; and

b. tell us that we all know what an author meant when what that author said was quite ambiguous.

Great, now we have the word ambiguous. So now tell me if you birth was natural and you were begotten by your father the same way the mormon jesus was begotten by his mormon father was your mom still a virgin the day after your birth?

[Snow Patrol]

Well it seems we are getting somewhere here. First, Christians believe by the powerof the Holy Ghost Jesus was Elohim's only begotten Son, and Mary was a Virgin at Jesus's birth. Even today Catholic's believe Mary was a virgin even after she gave birth to other children, which of course is nutty, but that is another story for another time, and place.
We Christians believe Elohim is Spirit, as the word of God tells us, and we don't try to go beyond what the Scriptures says on the subject.


So are you saying that the God the Father is the father of Jesus? Earlier, James said that the Holy Spirit conceived/begat, or whatever you want to call it, Jesus. So why don't you guys take a moment and decide amongst yourselves what mainstream Christianity believes.

[RealFakeHair]

So are you saying that the God the Father is the father of Jesus? Earlier, James said that the Holy Spirit conceived/begat, or whatever you want to call it, Jesus. So why don't you guys take a moment and decide amongst yourselves what mainstream Christianity believes.

Only because LDSinc. have a problem understanding the working of The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost being ONE Godhead is the reason you are confused as to the begotting or conceived of Jesus.
Christians understand God is Spirit, we also understand the Holy Ghost is the Power of God The Father. We believe as the Holy Bible says. < Matthew 1:18-25 >
“Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put her away secretly.But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, ‘Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS.
As for me, I don't know why LDSinc. Have a problem with what Matthew says here do you?

[Snow Patrol]

Only because LDSinc. have a problem understanding the working of The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost being ONE Godhead is the reason you are confused as to the begotting or conceived of Jesus.
Christians understand God is Spirit, we also understand the Holy Ghost is the Power of God The Father. We believe as the Holy Bible says. < Matthew 1:18-25 >
“Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put her away secretly.But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, ‘Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS.
As for me, I don't know why LDSinc. Have a problem with what Matthew says here do you?

Part of why we don't understand it is because you guys flip flop so often on your terms and other things.

Let simplify this.

Which member of the Godhead is Jesus the "Only Begotten" son of?

[RealFakeHair]

Part of why we don't understand it is because you guys flip flop so often on your terms and other things.

Let simplify this.

Which member of the Godhead is Jesus the "Only Begotten" son of?

I admire your attempt to change the subject, however once again we Christians have no misunderstanding as to how Jesus of the Holy Bible was begotten, ie Holy Ghost, and we have no misunderstanding as to Jesus being the only begotten Son of God. There is but ONE God! This is what the Holy Bible proclaims. The same Holy Bible proclaims; the prophet Isaiah declared, "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call Him Immanuel. IS: 7-14.

All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 'The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel' which means, 'God with us.'" Matt: 1, 22-23.
Before Jesus went back to His Father, He promised He would send his Comforter 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. John 14.26.
Thus, we Have the Father in Heaven. His Son here on Earth, and when The Son went back to His Father in Heaven He sent his Comforter, ie the Holy Ghost to be His Repersentative to mankind until His return.
At NO time and I repeat at NO time does the Holy Bible say that the Father was here on Earth to inpregnant Mary with His Son........

[Snow Patrol]

Sorry, but I just have the time to try and sort through all the terms you guys use interchangably to fit your beliefs around. The Father is the Father but not of Jesus, that is the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost begat Jesus but Jesus is not the "Only Begotten of the Father" as the Bible says. Sorry, it is just to much of a tangled web.

[RealFakeHair]

Sorry, but I just have the time to try and sort through all the terms you guys use interchangably to fit your beliefs around. The Father is the Father but not of Jesus, that is the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost begat Jesus but Jesus is not the "Only Begotten of the Father" as the Bible says. Sorry, it is just to much of a tangled web.

Lets slow it down alittle. Why don't we just believe what the Holy Bible tells us, and not go beyond it, as your LDDinc. Leaders often do, not as much today as they did in times pasted, but that is for another time to debate.
Again, let answer the question, was Jesus of the Holy Bible conceived of the Holy Ghost, true or false?
Was Jesus of the Holy Bible the only begotten Son of God of the Holy Bible, true or false?
I say true to both questions, what do you say?

[Snow Patrol]

Again, let answer the question, was Jesus of the Holy Bible conceived of the Holy Ghost, true or false?

How about this, Mary conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost but not OF the Holy Ghost. Yes


Was Jesus of the Holy Bible the only begotten Son of God of the Holy Bible, true or false? Yes

Now, was Jesus of the Holy Bible the only begotten of the Father of the Holy Bible, true or false? (See John 1:14) I say Yes

[RealFakeHair]

How about this, Mary conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost but not OF the Holy Ghost. Yes

Yes

Now, was Jesus of the Holy Bible the only begotten of the Father of the Holy Bible, true or false? (See John 1:14) I say Yes

Well, we're getting somewhere anyways. So we have a yes to the second question and a half a yes to the first. That's a good start, but half a yes, is still a half of a no.

[Snow Patrol]

Care to answer this?

Now, was Jesus of the Holy Bible the only begotten of the Father of the Holy Bible, true or false? (See John 1:14) I say Yes

[RealFakeHair]

Care to answer this?

Now, was Jesus of the Holy Bible the only begotten of the Father of the Holy Bible, true or false? (See John 1:14) I say Yes

Yes, and Yes, and Yes, oh how many yes do you want?

[Snow Patrol]

Ok, now explain how your first question and my question back to you are reconciled in your mind.

Jesus can only be begotten/conceived by one of the two, either the Holy Ghost or the Father.

[RealFakeHair]

[QUOTE=Snow Patrol;149077]Ok, now explain how your first question and my question back to you are reconciled in your mind.

Jesus can only be begotten/conceived by one of the two, either the Holy Ghost or the Father.[/QUOTE

The question is a question in mormon think, and not a question in Christian terms. Begotten and conceived in Christian term are two different things, but in mormon think they are the same, so which is it. So my question remains; " Jesus can only be begotten/conceived by one of the two, either the Holy Ghost or the Father?

[Snow Patrol]

All you did was say they mean different things. How, in your mind, are they different? What makes the terms different? How can Jesus be conceived of the Holy Ghost and at the same time be begotten of the Father?

[RealFakeHair]

All you did was say they mean different things. How, in your mind, are they different? What makes the terms different? How can Jesus be conceived of the Holy Ghost and at the same time be begotten of the Father?

We must always remember Christians and mormon use the same words but have different definitions. Here is just one of them; begotten, in mormon think, begotten is of the flesh and spirit in mormon heaven and in the flesh in mortal human terms here on earth. Conceived is the same in mormon heaven as well in mortal human earth.
We Christians believe Jesus of the Holy Bible is both the begotten Son of God here on earth as well in Heaven. We do not believe God of the Holy Bible came down to earth in a body of flesh and bone to have a physical relationship with his spirit daughter Mary to conceive The True Son of God.
Concieved in mormon think is a relationship between a immortal with a mortal.
We Christians believe there was no relationship with a immortal with a mortal in conception of Jesus of the Holy Bible.
We Christians believe it was by the power of the Holy Ghost, ie Spiritual, yes a miracle conception, leaving Mary a Virgin.
In simple Christian terms, Jesus of the Holy Bible The only Begotten Son of God by the conception of the Holy Ghost.
In momon think the mormon jesus was conceived and begotten in the flesh by a natural course of events just as you were begotten by your father in the flesh, ie a sexual realationship.

[Snow Patrol]

We must always remember Christians and mormon use the same words but have different definitions. Here is just one of them; begotten, in mormon think, begotten is of the flesh and spirit in mormon heaven and in the flesh in mortal human terms here on earth. Conceived is the same in mormon heaven as well in mortal human earth.
We Christians believe Jesus of the Holy Bible is both the begotten Son of God here on earth as well in Heaven. We do not believe God of the Holy Bible came down to earth in a body of flesh and bone to have a physical relationship with his spirit daughter Mary to conceive The True Son of God.
Concieved in mormon think is a relationship between a immortal with a mortal.
We Christians believe there was no relationship with a immortal with a mortal in conception of Jesus of the Holy Bible.
We Christians believe it was by the power of the Holy Ghost, ie Spiritual, yes a miracle conception, leaving Mary a Virgin.
In simple Christian terms, Jesus of the Holy Bible The only Begotten Son of God by the conception of the Holy Ghost.
In momon think the mormon jesus was conceived and begotten in the flesh by a natural course of events just as you were begotten by your father in the flesh, ie a sexual realationship.

All I was asking for was your view and understanding of the words and terms, NOT your erroneous views of what LDS believe.

Now, the LDS believe that Mary was "overshadowed"/power of the Holy Ghost and through that power the Father begat Jesus, thus making Him the Father and Jesus the Only Begotten Son of the Father. Maybe you overlooked something I posted earlier, Ezra T Benson said "He was the Only Begotten Son of our Heavenly Father in the flesh—the only child whose mortal body was begotten by our Heavenly Father. His mortal mother, Mary, was called a virgin, both before and after she gave birth." Thus a virgin before and AFTER Jesus' birth. Can't still be a virgin if she had physical relations. That is official LDS teachings.

[RealFakeHair]

All I was asking for was your view and understanding of the words and terms, NOT your erroneous views of what LDS believe.

Now, the LDS believe that Mary was "overshadowed"/power of the Holy Ghost and through that power the Father begat Jesus, thus making Him the Father and Jesus the Only Begotten Son of the Father. Maybe you overlooked something I posted earlier, Ezra T Benson said "He was the Only Begotten Son of our Heavenly Father in the flesh—the only child whose mortal body was begotten by our Heavenly Father. His mortal mother, Mary, was called a virgin, both before and after she gave birth." Thus a virgin before and AFTER Jesus' birth. Can't still be a virgin if she had physical relations. That is official LDS teachings.

Here we have another word I like erroneous What is erroneous is the LDSinc. Teaching by your LDSinc. prophets and teachers. Yes, Mary was called virgin, but why? Answer because Mary had sex with an immortal mormon god and not a mortal human, thus in mormon think you can say Mary was indeed a virgin in the strangest difinition.
However what you can't explain is why Joseph Smith jr, and Brigham Young went out of their way to give explanation that made no sense. They tell us the mormon god came down from his mormon heaven to in a natural way conceive/begot his mormon son jesus to his earthy daughter Mary in the same manner as you were begotten by your father. Now tell me once again how were you begotten by your father, and was it natural?
The fact is LDSinc. would have been better off if Joseph and Brigham, just had not try and add to the Holy Bible.

[Snow Patrol]

Here we have another word I like erroneous What is erroneous is the LDSinc. Teaching by your LDSinc. prophets and teachers. Yes, Mary was called virgin, but why? Answer because Mary had sex with an immortal mormon god and not a mortal human, thus in mormon think you can say Mary was indeed a virgin in the strangest difinition.

Wrong.


However what you can't explain is why Joseph Smith jr, and Brigham Young went out of their way to give explanation that made no sense. They tell us the mormon god came down from his mormon heaven to in a natural way conceive/begot his mormon son jesus to his earthy daughter Mary in the same manner as you were begotten by your father.

It has been explained to you already. Sorry, but I can only extrapolate from your constant reference to women and sex in this thread and in threads on totally different topics that this is a preoccupation for you and no matter what any LDS says, you have it on your brain and are incapable of rational discourse. End of discussion.

[Sir]

So are you saying that the God the Father is the father of Jesus? Earlier, James said that the Holy Spirit conceived/begat, or whatever you want to call it, Jesus. So why don't you guys take a moment and decide amongst yourselves what mainstream Christianity believes.

Actually, James also said that the Holy Ghost is also the Father, so with the cultists of Anti-LDS Inc. it gets confusing trying to converse about our beliefs when they are so scattered on their own.

[Snow Patrol]

Actually, James also said that the Holy Ghost is also the Father, so with the cultists of Anti-LDS Inc. it gets confusing trying to converse about our beliefs when they are so scattered on their own.

Another issue is that they don't just answer a question about their beliefs. They have to add all this stuff about what we apparently believe even though we have told them numerous times that they are incorrect in their ****ysis of our beliefs.

[Billyray]

So are you saying that the God the Father is the father of Jesus?
God the Father is the Father. Jesus is the Son. And the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit.

Now how about answering some of my questions about what your leaders have said. Fair enough?

[Billyray]

Another issue is that they don't just answer a question about their beliefs.
Sure we do. The ones who don't answer are you and the other LDS on this board.

[Billyray]

Actually, James also said that the Holy Ghost is also the Father, so with the cultists of Anti-LDS Inc.

James gave you a verse on this. Why don't you quote it so we can talk about it.

[Billyray]

Why worry about it?
I am not worried about it but you certainly should be worried about what your own prophet said because you and I both know that what he said was false and you are doing your best to try and explain it away.

[RealFakeHair]

Wrong.



It has been explained to you already. Sorry, but I can only extrapolate from your constant reference to women and sex in this thread and in threads on totally different topics that this is a preoccupation for you and no matter what any LDS says, you have it on your brain and are incapable of rational discourse. End of discussion.

Once again, I will say, the mormon jesus was begotten in the same way you were begotten by your father. In of story!

[James Banta]

Once again, I will say, the mormon jesus was begotten in the same way you were begotten by your father. In of story!

This is more than a denial of Matthew 1:18.. It is a denial of the words of Jesus in John 4:24 (God is Spirit), Luke 24:39 (A spirit doesn't have a body of flesh and bone), Colossians 1:15 (Jesus is the image of the Invisible God).. Instead they teach as doctrine the commandments men.. That God has a body as Tangible as man's (D&C 130:22). That Jesus was begotten of that man-god in the same way any mortal father begets his children (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 546-547). Brigham Young taught this same thing I used McConkie to quote.. He said "The birth of the Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood--was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers (JofD Vol 8 p,115). Sex is a leading doctrine of Mormonism.. It is the method the LDS teach was the way Jesus was conceived, it is taught that it is how our spirit were conceived. Alexander L. Baugh of "Latter-day Saints believe that all mankind were begotten as individual spirit children of God, with individual agency, prior to being born into mortality." (Harold B Lee Library, BYU Provo. http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/First_Estate).. The Idea that sex isn't a huge part of mormonism even in the resurrection is inaccurate.. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

Ok, now explain how your first question and my question back to you are reconciled in your mind.

Jesus can only be begotten/conceived by one of the two, either the Holy Ghost or the Father.

Maybe there is a 3rd option for Trinitarians:

c) Jesus was begotten/conceived by BOTH God the Father AND God the Holy Spirit.

So He has 2 dads and no mom.

Gee, if I have to choose between the LDS belief that Jesus has a Father and a Mother, or Option C, I think the LDS belief is less weird.

[James Banta]

Maybe there is a 3rd option for Trinitarians:

c) Jesus was begotten/conceived by BOTH God the Father AND God the Holy Spirit.

So He has 2 dads and no mom.

Gee, if I have to choose between the LDS belief that Jesus has a Father and a Mother, or Option C, I think the LDS belief is less weird.

This talk between you and Snow shows that neither of you have learned a thing about the Trinity.. How many Gods does the doctrine teach? Not 3, just ONE.. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one Being. They are three separate Persons but one Essence.. This God laid down His glory and took on flesh. He was born of a virgin who conceived the flesh of Jesus (GOD) by the Holy Spirit (GOD), giving the honor to the Father (GOD).. God is an invisible Spirit (John 4:24, Colossians 1:15).. There should be no argument about that, but the LDS love to add to the scripture in order to make it fit into their idea of what they want the scripture to teach.. Not "God is Spirit" but "God has a spirit". Not that God is "the invisible God" but That he is the god "that isn't seen".

Your belief in the scripture is pointed out as wanting in this thread.. You believe the Bible as far as it doesn't disagree with you man invented doctrines. If it disagrees it must be translated incorrectly.

No God is one Lord and therefore He was begotten of that one God. Mary was found with child of the Holy Ghost. No mother you say.. I see the Bible as countering your false teaching.. The flesh of Jesus had one Father, God and one mother, Mary. If you would choose between the LDS beliefs and the Christian beliefs you should consider which is more Biblical.. That would NOT be the weird teachings of mormonism.. IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

Maybe there is a 3rd option for Trinitarians:

c) Jesus was begotten/conceived by BOTH God the Father AND God the Holy Spirit.

So He has 2 dads and no mom.

Gee, if I have to choose between the LDS belief that Jesus has a Father and a Mother, or Option C, I think the LDS belief is less weird.

How bout 1.2 TRILLION obtions for LDSinc. Maybe the mormon jesus was begotten/ conceived by his mormon god-father, and his mormon grand-father-god, and his mormon-father-god great-greart-mormon god, and his mormon great,great,great grand father mormon god, and so unto all infinity, or something.

[Billyray]

Maybe there is a 3rd option for Trinitarians:

c) Jesus was begotten/conceived by BOTH God the Father AND God the Holy Spirit.

So He has 2 dads and no mom.

Gee, if I have to choose between the LDS belief that Jesus has a Father and a Mother, or Option C, I think the LDS belief is less weird.
The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have eternally existed which means even before Jesus' earthly birth. So you are just trying to make up a straw man argument.

[Billyray]

Gee, if I have to choose between the LDS belief that Jesus has a Father and a Mother, or Option C, I think the LDS belief is less weird.
So the LDS viewpoint is that God the Father is the literal Father of Jesus by giving his "seed" to Mary via "natural action"?

[GSwarthout]

Help me to understand, James:


This God laid down His glory and took on flesh.

What does it mean that He laid down His glory? Was He somehow changed by the act? Was He not God the Father anymore?


He was born of a virgin who conceived the flesh of Jesus (GOD) by the Holy Spirit (GOD), giving the honor to the Father (GOD)

What does "giving honor to the Father" mean in this context?

Greg

[Pa Pa]

This is more than a denial of Matthew 1:18.. It is a denial of the words of Jesus in John 4:24 (God is Spirit), Luke 24:39 (A spirit doesn't have a body of flesh and bone), Colossians 1:15 (Jesus is the image of the Invisible God).. Instead they teach as doctrine the commandments men.. That God has a body as Tangible as man's (D&C 130:22). That Jesus was begotten of that man-god in the same way any mortal father begets his children (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 546-547). Brigham Young taught this same thing I used McConkie to quote.. He said "The birth of the Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood--was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers (JofD Vol 8 p,115). Sex is a leading doctrine of Mormonism.. It is the method the LDS teach was the way Jesus was conceived, it is taught that it is how our spirit were conceived. Alexander L. Baugh of "Latter-day Saints believe that all mankind were begotten as individual spirit children of God, with individual agency, prior to being born into mortality." (Harold B Lee Library, BYU Provo. http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/First_Estate).. The Idea that sex isn't a huge part of mormonism even in the resurrection is inaccurate.. IHS jim
Bright red larger script, bold type. Why are you yelling?

[Billyray]

Bright red larger script, bold type. Why are you yelling?
He is pointing out what LDS leaders has said about the conception of Christ.

[nrajeffreturns]

This talk between you and Snow shows that neither of you have learned a thing about the Trinity.. How many Gods does the doctrine teach? Not 3, just ONE.
How many PERSONS of the trinity begot Jesus?
a) 1
b) 2
c) all 3 of them

Maybe it's you who doesn't know a thing about the trinity.


The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one Being.
So did that one, whole, entire being make Mary pregnant?

a) yes
b) no


They are three separate Persons but one Essence.. This God laid down His glory and took on flesh.
So "this God" --meaning all 3 persons-- laid down His glory and took on flesh????

Is that really part of official Trinitarianism?



He was born of a virgin who conceived the flesh of Jesus (GOD) by the Holy Spirit (GOD), giving the honor to the Father (GOD).
You are saying that the Trinity was born of a virgin?


God is an invisible Spirit (John 4:24, Colossians 1:15).. There should be no argument about that,
I think the pure in heart might disagree with you, and so would Jesus, who was the one who promised the pure in heart that they would see God.


but the LDS love to add to the scripture
The LDS aren't the ones who added "Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God" to the scripture. That quote of Jesus was in scripture quite a while before the LDS came along.


You believe the Bible as far as it doesn't disagree with you man invented doctrines. If it disagrees it must be translated incorrectly.
Do you believe that Matthew 5:8 was translated correctly?

How about Exodus 24:10?
they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone
Translated correctly?


No mother you say..
What? I say "No mother" ?? What makes you think I said that???


I see the Bible as countering your false teaching.. The flesh of Jesus had one Father, God and one mother, Mary.
Were that Father and Mother married at the time? Should we take your belief and make it look weird, blasphemous, and cultic?

[Billyray]

How many PERSONS of the trinity begot Jesus?
a) 1
b) 2
c) all 3 of them


Are you using the LDS definition which is by "Natural Action" where the Father came down and actually impregnated Mary?

[Billyray]

So "this God" --meaning all 3 persons-- laid down His glory and took on flesh????

The Son died on the cross. Not the Father or the Holy Spirit.

[Billyray]

You are saying that the Trinity was born of a virgin?
The Son by "was born of a virgin". The Father or the Holy Spirit was not.

[James Banta]

[nrajeffreturns;149141]How many PERSONS of the trinity begot Jesus?
a) 1
b) 2
c) all 3 of them

Maybe it's you who doesn't know a thing about the trinity.

One Person, The Holy Spirit, Who is God and God is the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. Because Mary was found to be with Child of the Holy Spirit, she was with Child of God.. Do I need to tell you again who God is?



So did that one, whole, entire being make Mary pregnant?
a) yes
b) no

Yes. Is God ever separated from God? No! That is a hard concept I know but yes the Holy Spirit was the Person that did the work of creating the flesh of Jesus and yet He is God, and God is that Triune Being I have been trying to explain to you.. At no time is God fragmented.. He is always ONE LORD..


So "this God" --meaning all 3 persons-- laid down His glory and took on flesh????

YES..


Is that really part of official Trinitarianism?

Yes The doctrine of the Trinity agrees with the scripture.. The Lord Our God is ONE LORD.. There are not three Lords, There is One.. These three Person are therefore one Being.. If you see the Trinity as anything else than that you don't understand what that doctrine teaches..


You are saying that the Trinity was born of a virgin?

Since Jesus is God, and God is ONE, that is one way of understanding Him, yes..



I think the pure in heart might disagree with you, and so would Jesus, who was the one who promised the pure in heart that they would see God.

Would He? Even when His word say that He, the Child born unto us (Mankind) is the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father? I have fully rested my response to you in the word.. I have called on God as He represented Himself as the God who is One Lord.. As the Child that is the everlasting Father, as the Teacher who said I am the Father are ONE..

John 14:9
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

The Bible has made it clear that there is One God. If you must believe that other God's exists and the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the only god for this world, fine. But you still can't get around the the Biblical fact that the Lord our God is One Lord, and that no other God was formed before God, and no other will ever be formed in the future.. HE IS ONE, there can be no other argument that is Biblically sound..


The LDS aren't the ones who added "Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God" to the scripture. That quote of Jesus was in scripture quite a while before the LDS came along.

You will have to explain why you believe I deny that p***age..


Do you believe that Matthew 5:8 was translated correctly?

And why I would question this one..


How about Exodus 24:10?
they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone
Translated correctly?

And you see me having a problem with that how?


What? I say "No mother" ?? What makes you think I said that???

I just responded to what you said.. I didn't invent it.. I leave invention of teachings to the mormons..

Were that Father and Mother married at the time? Should we take your belief and make it look weird, blasphemous, and cultic?

Married? Mary was never the wife of anyone but Joseph. God never has physical relations with her. He caused her to be with Child.. She was found to be with Child of the Holy Spirit.. She was not found to be the wife of the Holy Spirit.. He (the Holy Spirit) has not flesh and Bone as the disciples saw Jesus has. That according to Jesus.. There was no sexual activity so there was no violation of the Law.. How is agreement to the word God gave us weird, blasphemous, and cultic? Again you need to explain those charges.. Try to do that in the word not in the wishes and inventions of your own will and reason.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

I think the pure in heart might disagree with you, and so would Jesus, who was the one who promised the pure in heart that they would see God.
Can you see a spirits around you Jeff?

[Billyray]

The LDS aren't the ones who added "Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God" to the scripture
The LDS add all sorts of stuff that is not written in the Bible. Your unique teachings are all made up.

[Billyray]

How about Exodus 24:10?
they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone
Translated correctly?
Translated correctly. And the God of the OT according to LDS is Jesus who at that point did not have a physical body. Right?

[James Banta]

Bright red larger script, bold type. Why are you yelling?

Because you and your fellows don't seem to me able to hear very well.. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

Can you see a spirits around you Jeff?

Doesn't the Bible have verses where spirits were seen by people?
Even Jesus supported the idea that the difference between bodiless spirits and resurrected ones is NOT that spirits are invisible, but that "a spirit doesn't have flesh and bones."

[James Banta]

Doesn't the Bible has verses where spirits were seen by people?
Even Jesus supported the idea that the difference between bodiless spirits and resurrected ones is NOT that spirits are invisible, but that "a spirit doesn't have flesh and bones."

Angels are never described as invisible.. GOD IS SO DESCRIBED! God is Spirit, therefore God hasn't a body of flesh and bone.. Yet Smith by his own personal authority teaches his followers that:

D&C 130:22
The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s...

This is one reason why mormonism is seen as teaching another God, a God not seen in the Bible. Because of this mormonism is pagan not Christian.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Doesn't the Bible have verses where spirits were seen by people?
Even Jesus supported the idea that the difference between bodiless spirits and resurrected ones is NOT that spirits are invisible, but that "a spirit doesn't have flesh and bones."

You didn't answer my question Jeff. Can you see all of the spirits that are around you?

[James Banta]

Begotten how? It seems some people here only have one interpretation of the word.

He was not begotten as all people are begotten of their natural fathers.. He was begotten of a spirit, the Holy Spirit.. Even Joseph Smith taught that the Holy Spirit didn't have a tangible body of flesh and bone so the Natural process for begetting the Child Jesus would have been impossible. I am talking here biblically now.. That Jesus was begotten in the womb of Mary by the Holy Spirit.. The word begotten is the word I use to describe the mean by which my children were began their existence and the means by which Mary was found to be with Child.. Was it done in the same way? NO! but Jesus was still begotten of God.. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

You didn't answer my question Jeff. Can you see all of the spirits that are around you?

No--just the visible ones.

[James Banta]

No--just the visible ones.

So if a Spirit is branded in the scripture as being INVISIBLE then such a Spirit can never be seen? IHS jim

[Billyray]

No--just the visible ones.
So some spirits are created in such a way that they are always visible to humans whereas some spirits are not visible?

[RealFakeHair]

No--just the visible ones.

I see dead people, mostley presbyterians.

[nrajeffreturns]

So if a Spirit is branded in the scripture as being INVISIBLE then such a Spirit can never be seen? IHS jim
It doesn't say that.

[nrajeffreturns]

So some spirits are created in such a way that they are always visible to humans whereas some spirits are not visible?

It doesn't say that.

[James Banta]

It doesn't say that.

I think that was a question not a statement... IHS jim