Point of Order, misunderstanding on all sides.

[Pa Pa]

What Mormonism sought to right...

Many of you are correct...

Many Mormons think Trinity is Modelism, and vise versa, many Christians are both believers in both, we reject Modelism.

Many Mormons don't understand Calvinism, and too many Christians do a bad *** of making case. This is what restoration was meant reject such teaching.

Many Mormons and Christians are speaking different languages, ***igning incorrect terms to various doctrines.

I spend a lot of time correcting (with respect) Mormons in cl*** so they are not repeated in living rooms of investigators.

We all, Mormons and Christians misunderstand each other,,,,FAR to often.

[Billyray]

we reject Modelism.


You say that LDS reject Modelism but that is exactly how it is explained by many Mormons.

[Billyray]

Many Mormons don't understand Calvinism.
Including you. You said in another thread that people don't have a choice. Sure they have a choice and people are responsible for their choices.

[Pa Pa]

You say that LDS reject Modelism but that is exactly how it is explained by many Mormons.That was my point...reread.

[Pa Pa]

Including you. You said in another thread that people don't have a choice. Sure they have a choice and people are responsible for their choices.
Never said that either...it has been my experience it is better to read though before thinking of your next comeback line.

[Billyray]

That was my point...reread.
But if your own leaders/teachers explain it that way then why do you say that LDS rejects modalism?

[Billyray]

Never said that either...it has been my experience it is better to read though before thinking of your next comeback line.

Here is your post from the other thread

If we cannot choose, then you are back to irresitable Grace and God as the puppet master.

[Pa Pa]

But if your own leaders/teachers explain it that way then why do you say that LDS rejects modalism?

Same thing except most leaders take time to get it right...I was speaking of Sunday School, Sacrament, etc.

[Pa Pa]

Here is your post from the other thread
You know full well that comment was about choosing salvation; why do you continue to misrepresent what I am saying? Again do you want a serious conversation or to play got ya?

[Billyray]

You know full well that comment was about choosing salvation; why do you continue to misrepresent what I am saying? Again do you want a serious conversation or to play got ya?

Here is your quote again

If we cannot choose, then you are back to irresitable Grace and God as the puppet master.
Perhaps you can tell me what you meant by this quote.

[Pa Pa]

Here is your quote again

Perhaps you can tell me what you meant by this quote.
Again why do you bold type the first few words and ignore the others, it clear I am speaking of choosing salvation instead of irresitable Grace which means we are acted upon, "drawn" all the verbiage that people use to make it clear that those not "predestined" cannot come unto God, cannot choose salvation. You do not need a PHD, to know what I was referring too. As I was taught growing up (gardening phrase) "hoe to the end of the row". How this apples here; read to the end of the sentence.

[Billyray]

Again why do you bold type the first few words and ignore the others, it clear I am speaking of choosing salvation instead of irresitable Grace which means we are acted upon, "drawn" all the verbiage that people use to make it clear that those not "predestined" cannot come unto God, cannot choose salvation. You do not need a PHD, to know what I was referring too. As I was taught growing up (gardening phrase) "hoe to the end of the row". How this apples here; read to the end of the sentence.
But everyone has a choice to either accept Christ or to reject Him.

[nrajeffreturns]

But everyone has a choice to either accept Christ or to reject Him.

How about a baby who dies the day after the delivery? Explain how that baby had a choice to either accept Christ or to reject Him.

[James Banta]

How about a baby who dies the day after the delivery? Explain how that baby had a choice to either accept Christ or to reject Him.

Simple, The same way you guys do it..

Matthew 19:14
But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus commanded that the children be allowed to come to Him just as they are allowed to come to Him in heaven.. These have the same choice that Calvinism teaches we all have.. All those He has chosen will come to him and those that come He will never cast out (John 6:37).. Tell me what choice little children have.. Then explain to me how any of the rest of us have any choice..


OH WAIT I KNOW.. THE WORDS OF JESUS WERE CORRUPTED AND WHAT IS TAUGHT IN THE BIBLE IS WRONG.. Total nonsense! IHS jim

[Billyray]

How about a baby who dies the day after the delivery? Explain how that baby had a choice to either accept Christ or to reject Him.
A baby who dies the day after delivery does not have the understanding to accept/reject Christ. But this is not what I was talking about when you quoted me.

[nrajeffreturns]

Simple, The same way you guys do it..
Not according to Billy, who says that unlike adults, "A baby who dies the day after delivery does not have the understanding to accept/reject Christ.


OH WAIT I KNOW..
Apparently you don't know.


THE WORDS OF JESUS WERE CORRUPTED AND WHAT IS TAUGHT IN THE BIBLE IS WRONG.. Total nonsense! IHS jim
No, the words of Jesus seem fine. It's just your misinterpretation of them that is total nonsense. You misinterpreted a situation where some adults brought some kids to Jesus for a blessing, and His disciples told them to go away because Jesus was tired.

"... little children were brought to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked those who brought them. 14 Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." 15 When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there."

You took that story, and changed into a support for your idea that babies can and do understand and accept Jesus and His gospel.

Even Billy disagrees with that.

[nrajeffreturns]

A baby who dies the day after delivery does not have the understanding to accept/reject Christ. But this is not what I was talking about when you quoted me.

Sorry. When I saw your claim that "everyone has a choice to either accept Christ or to reject Him" I ***umed you meant literally every human including babies who die shortly after birth.

So in the context of your reply to PaPa, were you actually referring only to people who are mature enough to understand and accept Jesus and the gospel?

[Pa Pa]

But everyone has a choice to either accept Christ or to reject Him.Except in Calvinism where you may only choose him if he has already chosen us.

[James Banta]

Except in Calvinism where you may only choose him if he has already chosen us.

This is the problem with mormonism.. It says that mormon doctrine is Bible doctrine but denies that God is spirit, denies that He is invisible.. Now PaPa denies that we did not choose God but He chose us.

John 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Eph 1:4-5
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will

That isn't Calvinism it is the word of God.. It hard for you to just trust His word and know that "We love him, because he first loved us." (1 John 4:19).. If you want to attack Calvinism do so on a doctrine not so clearly supported in the scripture.. After all.. "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (John 6:37)..

Gee... maybe if you deny His word long enough and hard enough you can get the mormon Jesus to change his mind and only take the people who want him even if there were others given to Him by the Father.. If you want to be anti Christian I understand but don't come here and tell people that you believe in the God of the Bible and believe the Bible more than any other people.. You end up denying it at every turn.. IHS jim


IHS jim

[Billyray]

Except in Calvinism where you may only choose him if he has already chosen us.
Here is my post again.

But everyone has a choice to either accept Christ or to reject Him.
You must not have read the post that you responded to.

[Billyray]

Not according to Billy, who says that unlike adults, "A baby who dies the day after delivery does not have the understanding to accept/reject Christ.

Do you really believe that PaPa and I were discussing infants who died (such as the post just above this one) when it comes to making a choice about accepting and rejecting Christ?

[James Banta]

Do you really believe that PaPa and I were discussing infants who died (such as the post just above this one) when it comes to making a choice about accepting and rejecting Christ?

People can stomp around and demand that they have a choice all they want.. God in His omniscience knows who will accept Him and who will not, from a time even before they were ever born. These He foreknew He predestined to salvation.. All the others remain the children of wrath..

As for the little ones Jesus taught us that allow the little children to come to Me, for such in the Kingdom of Heaven.. That should cover all their atheistic based questions.. IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

What Mormonism sought to right...

Many of you are correct...

Many Mormons think Trinity is Modelism, and vise versa, many Christians are both believers in both, we reject Modelism.

Many Mormons don't understand Calvinism, and too many Christians do a bad *** of making case. This is what restoration was meant reject such teaching.

Many Mormons and Christians are speaking different languages, ***igning incorrect terms to various doctrines.

I spend a lot of time correcting (with respect) Mormons in cl*** so they are not repeated in living rooms of investigators.

We all, Mormons and Christians misunderstand each other,,,,FAR to often.

Once again you are pretty close to the facts. First mormon and christians use the same language, but have different definitions; example, (Church) LDS believe the LDSinc. withits organizational structure, laws and proper name is the true definition of Church found in the Holy Bible. The christian definition of (Church) is the body of believers in Christ of the Holy Bible

[Apologette]

What Mormonism sought to right...

Many of you are correct...

Many Mormons think Trinity is Modelism, and vise versa, many Christians are both believers in both, we reject Modelism.

Many Mormons don't understand Calvinism, and too many Christians do a bad *** of making case. This is what restoration was meant reject such teaching.

Many Mormons and Christians are speaking different languages, ***igning incorrect terms to various doctrines.

I spend a lot of time correcting (with respect) Mormons in cl*** so they are not repeated in living rooms of investigators.

We all, Mormons and Christians misunderstand each other,,,,FAR to often.

Actually, Pa Pa, Modalism or Sabellianism is taught in the Book of Mormon - some of these p***ages were later "corrected." Modalism teaches that there is One Person in the Godhead, and that that person has different "modes" or offices: sometimes Father, sometimes Son, and sometimes Holy Spirit. My feeling is that this got into the Book of Mormon via Sidney Rigdon who was booted out of the Baptists for heretical views. But that's just my view - may be wrong. Now, as to the Sabellianism in the Book of Mormon, you'll find it here:

“And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people. And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son -- The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son -- And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth. And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation...”
(Book of Mormon, Mosiah 15:1-5).

You can see how different this is from today's Mormon teachings about the Father and Son being two different gods (the Holy Spirit another god).

Opposed to modalistic views, Christians hold that there is ONLY One God, and that He is Tripersonal in nature: three Persons subsisting within the One God eternally.

[nrajeffreturns]

Do you really believe that PaPa and I were discussing infants who died (such as the post just above this one) when it comes to making a choice about accepting and rejecting Christ?

You said EVERYONE, so how was I supposed to know that you didn't really mean everyone?

[Billyray]

You said EVERYONE, so how was I supposed to know that you didn't really mean everyone?
Perhaps you could go back and look at the discussion that PaPa and I were having--his point was that from the Calvinist point of view people do not have a choice. But as I said that is not what Calvinists believe in that they believe that each and every one of us chooses to either accept Christ or to reject Him (in context to our discussion we were not speaking about infants who die immediately after birth).

[nrajeffreturns]

...But as I said that is not what Calvinists believe in that they believe that each and every one of us chooses to either accept Christ or to reject Him (in context to our discussion we were not speaking about infants who die immediately after birth)
SO when you said

"each and every one of us"

you didn't mean

"each and every human being who has ever lived or who will live on this planet."

Okay.

[James Banta]

SO when you said

"each and every one of us"

you didn't mean

"each and every human being who has ever lived or who will live on this planet."

Okay.
Is Billy saying that what he says here is inerrant? Is he speaking scripture? No he is allowed to make errors in his points of speech.. If he wasn't to exclude infants in his meaning then that is what he means. I say that Jesus allows all the little children to come to Him, and I base that on scripture.. Even believing mormon believes that a children who dies before they turn eight years old are taken to the celestial kingdom. Are they given a choice in life to decide if they want to obey or not? NO! This is a path in which you have no dissenting argument and you should just drop it unless you can explain how such children made that decision.. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

Is Billy saying that what he says here is inerrant?
I don't know, but his interpretations of what the scriptures teach sometimes seem to be about as errant as yours are, IMO.


I say that Jesus allows all the little children to come to Him, and I base that on scripture..
Congrats--you agree with the LDS. I guess not everything the LDS believe is a lie, right?


Even believing mormon believes that a children who dies before they turn eight years old are taken to the celestial kingdom. Are they given a choice in life to decide if they want to obey or not? NO!
They p***ed enough of the test at that point.


This is a path in which you have no dissenting argument and you should just drop it unless you can explain how such children made that decision..
I hope you are right about there being no one here who disagrees with this LDS doctrine. I wasn't sure, since Billy rarely admits that any LDS belief is correct. The cause of my concern was the fact that apparently many Evangelicals believe that if you don't accept Jesus and His gospel in this life, before you die, then you cannot be saved and you must spend eternity in the fiery pit of hell. This would be a problem for kids who die young and for anyone else who dies before they got a chance to hear and accept the gospel and learn about Jesus.

[Pa Pa]

But everyone has a choice to either accept Christ or to reject Him.

Except in the mind of cultist who are draw. To him by irresitable Grace...the un-chosen could not do so if they wanted. These poor souls are pre-rejected. It is elitism at it's worst. I tell you this because if unrepentant "Clavinist" will wake to the horror of the God they worship, but on his left hand. This is the only way he could be just, by ***igning the judgement they place upon others, for in them lies the greater sin.

[Pa Pa]

This is the problem with mormonism.. It says that mormon doctrine is Bible doctrine but denies that God is spirit, denies that He is invisible.. Now PaPa denies that we did not choose God but He chose us.




IHS jimSo you are a Calvinist...also you believe that no man has seen God? Even with all the evidence?

[Billyray]

Except in the mind of cultist who are draw.

I have told you multiple times now and you simply have ignored what I have said. Why is that PaPa?

[James Banta]

[nrajeffreturns;149333]I don't know, but his interpretations of what the scriptures teach sometimes seem to be about as errant as yours are, IMO.
Oh yes my interpretation are all wrong because instead of making up a meaning I believe just what the scripture says.. Because of that and the LDS teaching that the Bible is a corrupted document I must be teaching error.. Never mind that Jesus, who is God, promised that His word (and even the LDS call the Bible the word of God) will never die.. But You want to believe a man (Joseph Smith) before you will believe God..


Congrats--you agree with the LDS. I guess not everything the LDS believe is a lie, right?

I am not one that would say that.. I will say that ALL of mormonism is based on the testimony of Joseph Smith and that foundation is nothing but a lie..


They p***ed enough of the test at that point.

As I understand the doctrine these had no need to be tested at all.. They proved their worthiness in your man invented preexistence.


I hope you are right about there being no one here who disagrees with this LDS doctrine. I wasn't sure, since Billy rarely admits that any LDS belief is correct. The cause of my concern was the fact that apparently many Evangelicals believe that if you don't accept Jesus and His gospel in this life, before you die, then you cannot be saved and you must spend eternity in the fiery pit of hell. This would be a problem for kids who die young and for anyone else who dies before they got a chance to hear and accept the gospel and learn about Jesus.

You are again wrong.. This isn't an LDS doctrine. This is a teaching found in the Bible.. IT is one Bible teaching that the LDS are not completely in error in teaching.. It wasn't Smith that taught this first. It is Jesus that told His followers to allow the little children to come to Him because that is the way of the Kingdom of God.. JESUS HOWEVER PUTS NO AGE LIMIT ON THAT TEACHING. Some children can't understand the subst itutionary sacrifice Jesus made for them at the age of eight. Others will never have the consciousness or intellectual prowess to make such a commitment to Jesus.. The age of eight is never used in the scripture as the day when self awareness awakens in the mind of a child.. It happens when it happens.

NO CHRISTIAN, not one, believes the Catholic doctrine that infants aren't saved until they are baptized. Christian believe that a self aware person who neglects his salvation will be ****ed and there is no second chance..

John 9:4
I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

2 Cor 6:2
For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

Then there is the parable of the rich man and Lazarth.. We are taught there at even a messenger from God will not be sent to even warn the living of the perils to come.. Nope no second chances. A person either response to the revelation of Jesus they are given or they suffer the pains of hell which God prepared for Satan and those that would follow his ways.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

So you are a Calvinist...also you believe that no man has seen God? Even with all the evidence?

Since the Bible says that no man has seen God, that the Son has declared Him (John 1:18). So I can say with Biblical authority that no man has ever seen the invisible God. That ever time man has seen God it has been Jesus and not the Father they have had an experience with..

Hey even LDS doctrine teaches that Joseph Smith could have seen God in 1820..

D&C 84:21-22
And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh;
For without this no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live.

Smith had no priesthood in 1820; but as always mormonism breaks it own rules in it's operations.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

you see the diciples tried to keep little kids from getting close to the Lord because they ***umed that you had to be older to understand or to be important enough for the lord to stop and deal with.

But the lord seems to think that of such is the kingdom made.

This teaches us many things about what heaven is like, but among the things is the idea that heaven is filled with kids who were too young to really understand, yet were invited to heaven by our Lord.

Each person is called.
Each person according to the calling is held to account for how they responded to that calling.
That means that even a baby that dies before being born, also receives this calling/invitation too, and is judged not according to the same standard you or I will be judged, but rather according to the standard set by the god who judges justly all people, from the youngest to the oldest.....(to the person who receives much, much will be asked.....the servant that receives the most, is held to a higher standard at the master's return.)


This is why most Christians believe that all children that die before being of age are with the lord in heaven...Its because they do not have to live up to a standard that adults must meet.

[James Banta]

you see the diciples tried to keep little kids from getting close to the Lord because they ***umed that you had to be older to understand or to be important enough for the lord to stop and deal with.

But the lord seems to think that of such is the kingdom made.

This teaches us many things about what heaven is like, but among the things is the idea that heaven is filled with kids who were too young to really understand, yet were invited to heaven by our Lord.

Each person is called.
Each person according to the calling is held to account for how they responded to that calling.
That means that even a baby that dies before being born, also receives this calling/invitation too, and is judged not according to the same standard yo9u or I will be judged, but rather according to the standard set by the god who judges justly all people, from the youngest to the oldest.....(to the person who receives much, much will be asked.....the servant that receives the most, is held to a higher standard at the master's return.)


This is why most Christians believe that all children that die before being of age are with the lord in heaven...Its because they do not have to live up to a standard that adults must meet.

Really? Doesn't Jesus teach that all of us must come to Him as a little child? Seems we all are judged by the same standard after all.. Does God see us as perfect in the righteousness of Jesus? That is the standard of judgement for all.. Perfection, to be perfect as He is perfect.. Only in the imputed righteousness of Jesus can we approach the throne of God with confidence. It doesn't matter then what our age is, only that we are perfect is the eyes of God because of the work of our Lord Jesus.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

One of the ideas Jesus taught was that none of us has to match the same standard as the next person...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVXMUDC_pw8