Joseph Smith, the Would Be King!

[Apologette]

"On March 11, 1844, Joseph Smith established a secret organization called the Council of Fifty, in Nauvoo, Illinois, which was designed to carry out his plans for political empire. This theocratic-political kingdom or body of men met a number of times in Nauvoo before Smith’s death on June 27, 1844.3 The goal of this theocracy was world government.4 They further believed they would govern and rule the earth during the millennial reign of Christ.5

On April 11, 1844, the Council of Fifty installed Joseph Smith as king on earth, then two days later, “He [Smith] prophecied the entire overthrow of this nation in a few years.”6 This theocratic-political body believed they were receiving God's “law” for the whole earth. On January 1, 1845, William Clayton summarized the goals and accomplishments of this council during 1844:

"The organization of the kingdom of God on the 11th March last is one important event. This organization was called the council of fifty or kingdom of God and was ***led by revelation as follows, ‘Verily thus saith the Lord, this is the name by which you shall be called, the kingdom of god and his law, with the keys and power thereof and judgments in the hands of his servants Ahman Christ.’ In this council was the plan arranged for supporting president Joseph Smith as a candidate for the presidency of the U.S. Prest. Joseph was the standing chairman of the council and myself the clerk. In this council was also devised the plan of establishing an immigration to Texas and plans laid for the exaltation of a standard and ensign of truths for the nations of the earth. In this council was the plan devised to restore the Ancients to the knowledge of the truth and the restoration of union and peace amongst ourselves. In this council was prest. Joseph chosen as our prophet Priest, & King by Hosannas. In this council was the principles of eternal truths rolled forth to the hearers without reserve and the hearts of the servants of God made to rejoice exceedingly.7"

How often have we seen Mormons brag here that Smith prophesied the LDS would eventually move to the Rocky Mountain, a "prophecy" which was inserted into the Church's history after Smith's death. Mormons have a long history of tampering with prophecies, besides altering the Bible. Above we can see that it wasn't the Rocky Mountains which interested the power-mongering, Smith, but Texas! With Texas a a base, Smith would work to set up a sovereign Mormon kingdom.

"It is unfortunate that we do not have the minutes of the Council of Fifty. They are located at LDS church headquarters in Salt Lake City, Utah, and have not been published or allowed to be used by scholars. However, we can determine some of the decision making, methods, and goals of this council because a few of their members talked about the content of their secret meetings. Several talked at the peril of their lives with George Davis of Alton, Illinois, shortly after Smiths death on June 27, 1844. Davis wrote:

The great aim of Joseph Smith was evidently to clothe himself with the most unlimited power, civil, military and ecclesiastical over all who became members of his society.... [He stated] that God had revealed to him, that the Indians and Latter Day Saints, under Jo[s]e[ph] as their King and Ruler, were to conquer the Gentiles, and that their subjection to this authority was to be obtained by the sword! From this revelation, he enforced upon them that it was necessary he should be crowned King, and ... was accordingly CROWNED KING under God, over, the immediate house of Israel. This ceremony was performed in 1842 [1844], by a council of fifty…. [That] the whole earth was to become under subjection to him…. accordingly Jo[s]e[ph] swore them all to present secrecy,

My note: Well, we can see the need for secrecy in the Mormon cult - especially in their temple rituals, where they used to promise to teach their children to practice vengeance against the United States for the deaths of their prophet boys, Joe and Hyrum. When the oath didn't fit into their need to present themselves to the world as genuine Christians, it was removed! Everything is done for expediency and the appearance of the cult in Mormondom. Futher the article states:

It is also a fact, ascertained beyond controversy, that the Indian tribes of Sacs and Foxes, Sioux's and Pottawattamies, were consulted, and their ***ent obtained previous to the mock crowning ... and that delegates were sent to Nauvoo from each of the above tribes about the time of the ceremony being performed [on April 11, 1844], by the council of fifty. These delegations of Indians were seen by hundreds and hundreds at Nauvoo, but the object of their visitation never was ascertained without the pale of the church, until secessions commenced taking place from the Mormons.
The reader may naturally inquire how these facts have been ascertained. I state, from the only source possible to derive information; that is, from those who aided in the ceremony, but who have since returned to their reason and come out from among this den of wicked and perverse men.9"

And so, the power and land hungry Mormons, led by the despot and "king," Joseph Smith, decided that they were destined to rule over America, and if that was not immediately possible, they'd set up their "kingdom" in Texas:

(Mormon) "Bishop George Miller further described the goals of the Council of Fifty for Texas. He wrote:
In this council it was agreed upon that we would run Joseph Smith for President of the United States, which we would certainly do, and also Sidney Rigdon for Vice President; and in case they were elected we would at once establish dominion in the United States, and in view of a failure we would send a minister to the then Republic of Texas to make a treaty with the Cabinet of Texas for all that country north of a west line from the falls of the Colorado River to the Nueces; thence down the same to the Gulf of Mexico, and along the same to Rio Grande and up the same to the United States territory, and get them to acknowledge us as a nation; and on the part of the church we would help them [Republic of Texas] defend themselves against Mexico, standing as a go-between the belligerent powers. And if successful in this matter we would have dominion in spite of the United States.17"

So, folks, the "king" Joe Smith decided that if he couldn't rule the United States, he'd rule his own "kingdom" in Texas (not in the Rockies). Unfortunately, fate intervened when Smith became so bizarre and looney in his thinking, believing himself already king, that he decided to defy the Cons***utional right of Freedom of the Press, destroy the newspaper, the Nauvoo Expositor, and had to flee across the Mississippi river to Iowa, coward that he was! Emma begged him to return to his followers, and he ended up being arrested, thrown into Carthage jail, and the "king" became a "fallen prophet" literally - falling out the jail window to his death! As the article summarizes:

"The Council of Fifty also sent other members of this group to meet with Indian Councils.19 Perhaps the examples identified in this article indicate what Smith had in mind for each member of the Council of Fifty, all of whom were referred to as “princes in the Kingdom of God,” and “fifty princes of the Kingdom.”20

"In summary, Joseph Smith by attempting to establish a secret theocratic-government within America in 1844 appears to have violated the treason clause of the U.S. Cons***ution (Article III, Section 3). Moreover, his plan and method for overthrowing the United States, and eventually all world governments, caused apprehension within the United States. Had Smith lived a few more years, his actions most likely would have convicted him of treason, or something along those lines in a court of law. In all probably he would have served time in a penitentiary."

The entire article and all references is found here: http://mormonthink.com/grant8.htm

Folks, in what way did Smith differ from Adolf Hitler or Benito Mussolini? Both sought power - power over the whole world. Both thought they were invinsible! Hitler ended up killing himself when he was surrounded by advancing Russian troops; Mussolini was hung by Italian resisters! Smith jumped out a window after giving the Masonic distress call - right into the arms of those who killed him! This is generally the end of all tyrants who think the are invincible. Only God is invincible, and contrary to Smith's claims, he wasn't god.

We should give thanks that Joe Smith's plans were thwarted by the True and Living God, the Real King over Israel.

[nrajeffreturns]

Folks, in what way did Smith differ from Adolf Hitler or Benito Mussolini?

Well, unlike Smith, Hitler followed the antisemitic rantings of Protestant Martin Luther, patron saint of anti-LDS Evangelicals.

And unlike Smith, Mussolini was an atheist--and atheism also happens to be what LDS often become if they get tricked into believing anti-LDSism.

So I guess Hitler and Mussolini have something in common with anti-LDSism ! :)

[Sir]

Well, unlike Smith, Hitler followed the antisemitic rantings of Protestant Martin Luther, patron saint of anti-LDS Evangelicals.

And unlike Smith, Mussolini was an atheist--and atheism also happens to be what LDS often become if they get tricked into believing anti-LDSism.

So I guess Hitler and Mussolini have something in common with anti-LDSism ! :)

Can't beat that logic!

[Apologette]

Well, unlike Smith, Hitler followed the antisemitic rantings of Protestant Martin Luther, patron saint of anti-LDS Evangelicals.

And unlike Smith, Mussolini was an atheist--and atheism also happens to be what LDS often become if they get tricked into believing anti-LDSism.

So I guess Hitler and Mussolini have something in common with anti-LDSism ! :)

Jeff forgets the horrible racist remarks that men like Smith and Young, Mormon leaders made about blacks! I see there are more and more people looking in on this forum, so much for any "prophecy" that it's going to close down! More and more people are leaving the Mormon cult and are seeking information. If anybody looking in on this forum is African American, they might want to consider the fact that Mormons teach that their skin is darker because they have the mark of Cain, a sign of sin:


"Brigham Young second President and Prophet:

You see some cl***es of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. . . . Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which was the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another cursed is pronounced upon the same race--that they should be the "servants of servants;" and they will be until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree (Journal of Discourses, 7:290; emphasis added)

Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be."

(for all the horribly racist remarks, read the source of this quote and many others here: http://www.christiandefense.org/mor_black.htm

As far as Hitler is concerned, the Mormons baptized him in one of their necromantic ritual "baptisms." And not only Hitler, but Himmler and a bunch of other Nazis. Even Eva Braun was baptized by them, so I'm sure they've already posthumously married/sealed her to Adolf, what with their super duper priesthood powers that extend to the grave! So now Adolf and Eva can go the Celestial Kingdom and become a god and goddess! Isn't that just a heart warming story folks? Here's the proof:

http://www.examiner.com/article/mormons-baptized-hitler-stalin-mao-buddah-et-al

[RealFakeHair]

Well, unlike Smith, Hitler followed the antisemitic rantings of Protestant Martin Luther, patron saint of anti-LDS Evangelicals.

And unlike Smith, Mussolini was an atheist--and atheism also happens to be what LDS often become if they get tricked into believing anti-LDSism.
So I guess Hitler and Mussolini have something in common with anti-LDSism ! :)

No, I think Joseph Smith jr. was more like Bill Clinton, without the blue dress.

[nrajeffreturns]

No, I think Joseph Smith jr. was more like Bill Clinton, without the blue dress.

That is an outrageous accusation! You have no evidence that Smith wore a dress of a non-blue color!

[James Banta]

That is an outrageous accusation! You have no evidence that Smith wore a dress of a non-blue color!

I hope that was an attempt at humor.. It doesn't change the FACT that Smith was a womanizer.. One who never changed AND NEVER REPENTED right to the last day of his life. IHS jim

[Apologette]

That is an outrageous accusation! You have no evidence that Smith wore a dress of a non-blue color!

Okay, it was white!

[Apologette]

I hope that was an attempt at humor.. It doesn't change the FACT that Smith was a womanizer.. One who never changed AND NEVER REPENTED right to the last day of his life. IHS jim

And one month before his final "jump," he claimed he had done a greater work than Jesus. That sealed his fate, I believe. God will not always be mocked!

[nrajeffreturns]

And one month before his final "jump," he claimed he had done a greater work than Jesus.
Oh, please--YOU have done greater things than Jesus did, too. You lived longer, for one thing. :)
You have posted more words of praise for Anglicanism than He ever did, for another.


That sealed his fate, I believe.
If Calvinism is true, then God sealed his fate even before creating him, so he never even had a chance at salvation. That's among the top 3 most abominable teachings of Calvinism, IMO--the idea that some people never had any hope of salvation because their fate of hell was decided for them before they even became conscious beings.

[Ma'am]

Well, unlike Smith, Hitler followed the antisemitic rantings of Protestant Martin Luther, patron saint of anti-LDS Evangelicals.

And unlike Smith, Mussolini was an atheist--and atheism also happens to be what LDS often become if they get tricked into believing anti-LDSism.

So I guess Hitler and Mussolini have something in common with anti-LDSism ! :)

Perhaps the reason many ex-Mormons become atheists and agnostics is they have been so greatly disillusioned by Mormonism and its lies and false nature that they tend to think that all churches are frauds, like the LDS. I feel sorry for them and they need our prayers.

[James Banta]

And one month before his final "jump," he claimed he had done a greater work than Jesus. That sealed his fate, I believe. God will not always be mocked!

Even that can be forgiven.. But if the deny the promptings of the Holy Spirit unto death then that denial will never be forgiven.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Oh, please--YOU have done greater things than Jesus did, too. You lived longer, for one thing. :)
You have posted more words of praise for Anglicanism than He ever did, for another.


If Calvinism is true, then God sealed his fate even before creating him, so he never even had a chance at salvation. That's among the top 3 most abominable teachings of Calvinism, IMO--the idea that some people never had any hope of salvation because their fate of hell was decided for them before they even became conscious beings.

Where did this come from.. Smith explained how he had done more than Jesus.. It was in keeping a church together.. It wasn't about our length of days, it wasn't even his weird doctrines (polygamy).. It wasn't the mode of baptism, or the way church government was organized.. It was all about what He had done to keep the church together and that was it.. The Church Jesus built has endured over 2,000 years now. She has never failed to be His, for She is built on the foundation of Jesus Himself..

If Calvinism is true then God knows all things.. Even who will accept Him, and who will reject Him.. That is part of Calvinism built solidly on that attributes of God. To hold a doctrine that God doesn't know these things is to make God less divine than He is.. I have seen LDS here say that God does know all things and yet here you are again limiting Him to knowing just the past and the present.. I tell you that is false and God know every second of the past, present, and the future, all things.

God knew each and everyone of us before He ever created our spirits within us. Any God that doesn't is a false God. A God created in the image of man and not the GOD in whose image man was created. It's not that God created men to be consigned to hell, it is that God has always known everything about us to the color or our hair, how many days we would live in the flesh, and most importantly who would respond to His call into life.. You here AGAIN are taking that knowledge and turning it into something evil.. That which is Good you call Evil..

I don't care what you think of Calvinism.. Before I started to post here I had never heard of TULIP. I did however believe the Bible.. Hey even in your own scripture this concept which you deny here is taught:

Abraham 2:8
The Lord said to Abraham, My name is Jehovah, and I know the end from the beginning; therefore my hand shall be over thee.

If God knows all things even as your scripture teaches why deny that He knows who will come to Him and who will reject Him? As I said the Bible teaches this as well:

1 John 3:20
For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

Is not our salvation an event that can be known?

1 Jon 3:20
For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

God knows all things then from the beginning to the end.. He knows you and whether you will turn to Him or is you will remain trusting your own works and belief in a false God of flesh and bone.. IHS

[RealFakeHair]

That is an outrageous accusation! You have no evidence that Smith wore a dress of a non-blue color!

NOW that's funny. I will try and find out if he ever wore a dress

[James Banta]

NOW that's funny. I will try and find out if he ever wore a dress

I don't think he wore any but he did his best to get into several.. IHS jim

[Apologette]

Oh, please--YOU have done greater things than Jesus did, too. You lived longer, for one thing. :)
You have posted more words of praise for Anglicanism than He ever did, for another.


If Calvinism is true, then God sealed his fate even before creating him, so he never even had a chance at salvation. That's among the top 3 most abominable teachings of Calvinism, IMO--the idea that some people never had any hope of salvation because their fate of hell was decided for them before they even became conscious beings.

Nope, I have never done even one work greater than Jesus has done. You are trying to twist Smith's arrogant claim into something acceptable. But we who have the discernment of the Holy Spirit see right through you and your false prophet. Maybe you can work for Obama on his teleprompter and get him a more favorable reception by changing his remarks to mean what they do not!

[James Banta]

Perhaps the reason many ex-Mormons become atheists and agnostics is they have been so greatly disillusioned by Mormonism and its lies and false nature that they tend to think that all churches are frauds, like the LDS. I feel sorry for them and they need our prayers.

They have also be taught all their lives that all the other churches are false.. It's sad but that lie always sticks to them as truth.. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

Nope, I have never done even one work greater than Jesus has done.

Then maybe you don't believe on Jesus--or you believe Jesus made a false prophecy:

John 14:12
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do;

[RealFakeHair]

Then maybe you don't believe on Jesus--or you believe Jesus made a false prophecy:

John 14:12
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do;

I don't think Apologette, is a he.

[Sir]

I don't think Apologette, is a he.

True.

Anti-Mormon eisegesis at work here, where the word "he" is meant to state that only males were who Jesus was speaking about.

[RealFakeHair]

True.

Anti-Mormon eisegesis at work here, where the word "he" is meant to state that only males were who Jesus was speaking about.

Just think how much the world would benefit, if women stayed in the kitchen, and here in America if they didn't have the rigth to vote. Sweet thought aint it?

[nrajeffreturns]

Just think how much the world would benefit, if women stayed in the kitchen, and here in America if they didn't have the rigth to vote. Sweet thought aint it?

Also, don't forget that according to God's inerrant word that never changes, Christian women should be keeping silent in church and should never be teaching men anything...and shouldn't cut their hair--I think that's in there, too.....

[Ma'am]

Jeff forgets the horrible racist remarks that men like Smith and Young, Mormon leaders made about blacks! I see there are more and more people looking in on this forum, so much for any "prophecy" that it's going to close down! More and more people are leaving the Mormon cult and are seeking information. If anybody looking in on this forum is African American, they might want to consider the fact that Mormons teach that their skin is darker because they have the mark of Cain, a sign of sin:


"Brigham Young second President and Prophet:

You see some cl***es of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. . . . Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which was the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another cursed is pronounced upon the same race--that they should be the "servants of servants;" and they will be until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree (Journal of Discourses, 7:290; emphasis added)

Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be."

(for all the horribly racist remarks, read the source of this quote and many others here: http://www.christiandefense.org/mor_black.htm

As far as Hitler is concerned, the Mormons baptized him in one of their necromantic ritual "baptisms." And not only Hitler, but Himmler and a bunch of other Nazis. Even Eva Braun was baptized by them, so I'm sure they've already posthumously married/sealed her to Adolf, what with their super duper priesthood powers that extend to the grave! So now Adolf and Eva can go the Celestial Kingdom and become a god and goddess! Isn't that just a heart warming story folks? Here's the proof:

http://www.examiner.com/article/mormons-baptized-hitler-stalin-mao-buddah-et-al


Even if this site did close down, it wouldn't be any proof that someone was a prophet. I knew this man I bought dog food from was going to go out of business, since business was so slow, and he did close his shop. Does that make me a prophet?

As for Hitler, I think the Nazis got far more of their anti-Semitic beliefs from a horrible book called "The Protocols of Zion" that was written from the standpoint of a Jew, but was actually penned by an anti-Semite, who was trying to make Jews look bad. It has been discredited and recognized as false for many, man years. But you are right--both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were racists, but that doesn't seem to bother most Mormons very much.

[Apologette]

Even that can be forgiven.. But if the deny the promptings of the Holy Spirit unto death then that denial will never be forgiven.. IHS jim

Exactly true!!

[Apologette]

Even if this site did close down, it wouldn't be any proof that someone was a prophet. I knew this man I bought dog food from was going to go out of business, since business was so slow, and he did close his shop. Does that make me a prophet?

As for Hitler, I think the Nazis got far more of their anti-Semitic beliefs from a horrible book called "The Protocols of Zion" that was written from the standpoint of a Jew, but was actually penned by an anti-Semite, who was trying to make Jews look bad. It has been discredited and recognized as false for many, man years. But you are right--both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were racists, but that doesn't seem to bother most Mormons very much.

The seared conscience can't see sin or repent of it.

[RealFakeHair]

True.

Anti-Mormon eisegesis at work here, where the word "he" is meant to state that only males were who Jesus was speaking about.

Amen, and I also think wives should bring coffee to their husbans every morning

[nrajeffreturns]

The seared conscience can't see sin or repent of it.

....and that's why so few anti-LDS repent of the stuff they have maliciously spread at certain anti-LDS forums...

[Apologette]

No, I think Joseph Smith jr. was more like Bill Clinton, without the blue dress.

Didn't Joe Smith wear a baker's hat like the rest of the mighty Mormon males do in their temple charade? But his had little points on top to make it look like a crown, right? (Joke)

[Ma'am]

The seared conscience can't see sin or repent of it.

Their consciences no longer bother them, since they HAVE been seared with a hot iron, so they are no longer sensitive to its promptings. They don't recognize sin for being sin. Since they can't recognize Joseph Smith as a false prophet and charlatan, they have to accuse us of lying, who have found out the truth about him, and posted it here. They have to make us look bad, rather than face the truth about Joseph Smith and his fakery.

[nrajeffreturns]

Their consciences no longer bother them, since they HAVE been seared with a hot iron
That's impossible--I never set my iron above "medium" when I'm ironing my shirts.


so they are no longer sensitive to its promptings.
So you believe we should trust our.....FEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEEEEEEEEEEEEELINGS?

What happened to the

"Feelings are unreliable, the heart is most wicked and deceptive, and besides, The Moonies and the Muslims say they're sensitive to THEIR feelings--are they right to do so?"

mantra???


They don't recognize sin for being sin.
Really? Last time I checked, I still was able to recognize a bank robbery, a murder, and what your Pastor Ted did as being sins.


Since they can't recognize Joseph Smith as a false prophet and charlatan, they have to accuse us of lying, who have found out the truth about him, and posted it here.
LOL. You read some Internet rumor and believed that you have found out the truth.


They have to make us look bad, rather than face the truth about Joseph Smith and his fakery.
In way, you make yourselves look bad by the way you act.

[Apologette]

Amen, and I also think wives should bring coffee to their husbans every morning

Should they wear the ludicrous temple outfits Mormon women have to adorn themselves with while bringing that cup of java? Maybe singing, "Amazing works, how sweet the sound." And bowing down to the glorious "priesthood power" of the husband who is going to resurrect them from the dead? I can't believe educated people buy into this stuff!

[Apologette]

Their consciences no longer bother them, since they HAVE been seared with a hot iron, so they are no longer sensitive to its promptings. They don't recognize sin for being sin. Since they can't recognize Joseph Smith as a false prophet and charlatan, they have to accuse us of lying, who have found out the truth about him, and posted it here. They have to make us look bad, rather than face the truth about Joseph Smith and his fakery.

Yes, and one only has to go to this forum or over to CARM to see how these Mormons will swallow anything the Mormon Church dishes out - no questions asked. No independent thought at all. It's a cl***ic study in what a cult can do!

[nrajeffreturns]

Yes, and one only has to go to this forum or over to CARM to see how these Mormons will swallow anything the Mormon Church dishes out - no questions asked. No independent thought at all. It's a cl***ic study in what a cult can do!

What does that do to your claim that we don't follow follow our leaders, we throw them under the bus, etc.?

[James Banta]

What does that do to your claim that we don't follow follow our leaders, we throw them under the bus, etc.?

It tells me that inside mormonism we can see wavering in their beliefs, like a wave of the sea, driven with the wind and tossed. (James 1:6) The Christian church has no mortal leader that directs the doctrines of the Church yet right here in Walter Martin I had unity with people i have never met in person. Even those that disagree with some of the doctrines I see taught in the Bible, all Christians share the same foundational doctrines.. That God is One Lord and He is the Father, Son ,and Holy Spirit. That it is by His grace through faith in Jesus that salvations come to a person.. Mormons can't even decide if there are three Gods or one.. They can't make up their mind if Jesus is a God or is only the Son of God. There is no unity of doctrine in mormonism and their prophet who they believe is to teach unity has failed to definitively provide that unity. I like your statement because many teachings of your "prophets" deserve only to be thrown under the bus.. IHS jim

[Apologette]

Amen, and I also think wives should bring coffee to their husbans every morning

And a ****tail at night!

[Apologette]

What does that do to your claim that we don't follow follow our leaders, we throw them under the bus, etc.?

If tomorrow Monson said Adam was your god, you'd be marching in lock step just as the Mormons did in Brigham Young's day!

[Apologette]

....and that's why so few anti-LDS repent of the stuff they have maliciously spread at certain anti-LDS forums...

Why should Christians repent of exposing the false doctrines you maliciously peddle as "restored Chrsitianity?"

[neverending]

If tomorrow Monson said Adam was your god, you'd be marching in lock step just as the Mormons did in Brigham Young's day!


Yes, and the Mormons have also been told that they are not to pit the dead prophets against the living.
We as non-members have a burden for the LDS because of what J. Smith did. He claimed to have restored the gospel of Jesus Christ but when compared to Christianity, it is not the same Jesus, it is not the same God. My God was never a man, He has ALWAYS been God! He is the ONLY God, there has never been any other, for God himself has told us, He knows no others. My God is also a spirit who is small enough to dwell within my heart and large enough to fill the whole world and the universe. It is because of the many doctrines that go against Christianity that we come here to try and point out the differences and Mormonism is another gospel that we were warned about.
I am sorry for the LDS people and I am sorry that Snow didn't accept my apology since he's brought my name up again in a post to James. How I wish the LDS here would understand that we are only trying to warn them of what will happen to them if they continue to believe in the false doctrines of Mormonism. Once I discovered the falsehoods, it was a real eye opener but also very upsetting as I felt betrayed. Life goes on but now I have the ***urance that I will be with the Lord for all eternity. 1 John 5:13.

[Snow Patrol]

I am sorry for the LDS people and I am sorry that Snow didn't accept my apology since he's brought my name up again in a post to James.


Why would ***ume I haven't forgiven you? I don't hold it against you, but when your husband claims that it is not about the LDS people but rather that doctrine, then I'm going to bring up our experience as an example. I don't bring it up "willy nilly" but in direct re****al to an argument your husband was making. I forgave, but that doesn't mean I forget. That may be what Christ does but I don't ever recall reading where he commanded us to forget.

[neverending]

Why would ***ume I haven't forgiven you? I don't hold it against you, but when your husband claims that it is not about the LDS people but rather that doctrine, then I'm going to bring up our experience as an example. I don't bring it up "willy nilly" but in direct re****al to an argument your husband was making. I forgave, but that doesn't mean I forget. That may be what Christ does but I don't ever recall reading where he commanded us to forget.

Snow, I understand but I do feel that when someone has asked for forgiveness, and you accept it, then wouldn't it be right to forget whatever was said or done? Isn't part of forgiveness also forgetting the wrong? Christ told his disciples that they should forget 70 times 7. God also said that when we come to Him and repent, asking for His forgiveness, He forgives us and remembers the sin no more. Are we better then God? I certainly know I am not even close to being perfect and never will be in this flesh but God is and we were commanded to, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect" Matt. 5:48.
I am sorry that the disagreements that have come up between James and the other Christians here is upsetting. Please know it isn't done out of malice but because we are concerned for your eternal destiny. Eternity is a very, very long time; this life is nothing, a blink of an eye. Do read 1 John 5:13, it is what I cling to knowing that God does not lie, His promises are real and you can believe them.

[Snow Patrol]

Snow, I understand but I do feel that when someone has asked for forgiveness, and you accept it, then wouldn't it be right to forget whatever was said or done? Isn't part of forgiveness also forgetting the wrong? Christ told his disciples that they should forget 70 times 7. God also said that when we come to Him and repent, asking for His forgiveness, He forgives us and remembers the sin no more. Are we better then God? I certainly know I am not even close to being perfect and never will be in this flesh but God is and we were commanded to, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect" Matt. 5:48.
I am sorry that the disagreements that have come up between James and the other Christians here is upsetting. Please know it isn't done out of malice but because we are concerned for your eternal destiny. Eternity is a very, very long time; this life is nothing, a blink of an eye. Do read 1 John 5:13, it is what I cling to knowing that God does not lie, His promises are real and you can believe them.

Neverending, I do not hold it against you in anyway. It is hard on boards such as these to completely forget becuase it is always there. Have you forgiven former Bishops and other LDS that mistreated you? Do you mention these experiences here? I don't think it is inappropriate to mention these things as a means of telling about experiences. I question though when James, or anyone for that matter, uses experiences such as this to supposedly tear down the Church yet become offended if someone calls them on it and says that they are "anti-LDS." They either need to realize that they really are anti-(the people) when they keep mentioning how "evil" the LDS are or stop singling out individuals. Address the doctrine. If the doctrine is incorrect then individuals should not be mentioned no matter who they are.

[neverending]

Couldn't agree more. Yes, there have been some hurtful things said and done to me when I was a Mormon. I admit it is hard for me to not forget because I was never treated with any respect but had my peers who I grew up with in my Ward who looked down their noses at me and my parents. This is a sin, that I have held animosity towards those people and for so long.
My situation was that I never felt I belonged when I was a Mormon and I never understood why, not until I entered the temple and experienced the horrible rituals that made me cry. That began my search for answers and lead me to God's word and comparing it with Mormon doctrines. I found my answers and even talking with my Dad never gave me any peace. I had many sleepless nights. All I can tell you is after finding Jesus Christ and turning my life over to him, so many things became clearer and I was then at peace. It is truly my desire for you and all my loved ones to come to a saving knowledge of Jesus so you too can have the ***urance that is spoken of in 1 John 5:13. God bless and have a good evening. Hope it is warm where you are, we're in the deep freeze this week.

[BigJulie]

Couldn't agree more. Yes, there have been some hurtful things said and done to me when I was a Mormon. I admit it is hard for me to not forget because I was never treated with any respect but had my peers who I grew up with in my Ward who looked down their noses at me and my parents. This is a sin, that I have held animosity towards those people and for so long.
My situation was that I never felt I belonged when I was a Mormon and I never understood why, not until I entered the temple and experienced the horrible rituals that made me cry. That began my search for answers and lead me to God's word and comparing it with Mormon doctrines. I found my answers and even talking with my Dad never gave me any peace. I had many sleepless nights. All I can tell you is after finding Jesus Christ and turning my life over to him, so many things became clearer and I was then at peace. It is truly my desire for you and all my loved ones to come to a saving knowledge of Jesus so you too can have the ***urance that is spoken of in 1 John 5:13. God bless and have a good evening. Hope it is warm where you are, we're in the deep freeze this week.

I am glad you have found peace. I am sad you feel you never belonged.

For me, the longer I am Mormon, the deeper my testimony grows. I have a testimony of Jesus Christ. He is my Savior. Every day, my faith turns to purer and purer knowledge as I see the results of having a testimony of the gospel of Jesus Christ. I can't imagine my life without it.

[James Banta]

I am glad you have found peace. I am sad you feel you never belonged.

For me, the longer I am Mormon, the deeper my testimony grows. I have a testimony of Jesus Christ. He is my Savior. Every day, my faith turns to purer and purer knowledge as I see the results of having a testimony of the gospel of Jesus Christ. I can't imagine my life without it.

He is your spirit brother.. You spiritual equal.. Born before you but I was born before my brother and I don't see him as less of a person than I am.. Why would you be less than your brother?

You have a growing testimony only because you are unwilling to face the truth of how the LDS church came to be. You see the modern church and the polygamy, the polyandry.. The lying about that behavior. All the time insisting that he was a man of God. Hey you were so mad at me because I sinned that you stormed out of the forum. But you forgive Smith in his adulteries.. Something seems backward in your thinking.. I have repented did you ever see a word of repentance for his affair with Zina Huntington Jacobs? After all she was a married woman.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE=James Banta;150062]He is your spirit brother.. You spiritual equal.. Born before you but I was born before my brother and I don't see him as less of a person than I am.. Why would you be less than your brother?


Because at his very nature and core, He is God. I am not.

I think we have gone over this before. The gospel of Christ teaches us that we have always existed as "intelligences" (the core of who we are.) Therefore, if you sin--it isn't because God made you flawed, it is because this is who you are at your core. Jesus Christ atoned for our sins and has given us the aid of the Holy Ghost so that we can overcome this nature. Unlike us though, Christ's nature is perfect. This is why he is "one" with God the Father. There is nothing about Christ that would ever desire to go against the Father. This can be seen perfectly in scriptures such as "Luke 22:42: Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. "




You have a growing testimony only because you are unwilling to face the truth of how the LDS church came to be. You see the modern church and the polygamy, the polyandry.. The lying about that behavior. All the time insisting that he was a man of God. Hey you were so mad at me because I sinned that you stormed out of the forum. But you forgive Smith in his adulteries.. Something seems backward in your thinking.. I have repented did you ever see a word of repentance for his affair with Zina Huntington Jacobs? After all she was a married woman.. IHS jim

What? I stormed out of this forum? Where did you get that idea? I went to get into this forum one time and the site was hacked by some Muslim group. I decided maybe it was not safe site for a while. It had nothing to do with you.

That said, the history of this church is definitely messy at times. I acknowledge and accept that. It is not hard for me as the history of the gospel is messy. My word, read the Old Testament and see if you don't scratch your head at times.

But to me, there is the history and then there is revelation. The history contains the behavior and understanding of humans as they go about trying to understand and do God's will. The revelation is pure. As I have explained before, this is something like trying to understand Thomas Edison (the history) versus trying to understand the light bulb (the revelation). If I tried to determine if electricity is something that is useful in my life by understanding Thomas Edison, I might throw it all away because I didn't like the way he treated Tesla. On the other hand, if I am trying to understand the light bulb and if it works, I can buy one--stick it into a lamp--plug it in and see if it helps my life.

My testimony exists because I have applied the truth of the gospel and just like the light bulb, I can see it works and it is good for my life.

[Apologette]

Their consciences no longer bother them, since they HAVE been seared with a hot iron, so they are no longer sensitive to its promptings. They don't recognize sin for being sin. Since they can't recognize Joseph Smith as a false prophet and charlatan, they have to accuse us of lying, who have found out the truth about him, and posted it here. They have to make us look bad, rather than face the truth about Joseph Smith and his fakery.
I'm afraid that is sadly the truth. There is nothing we can do to reach those so seared - only by God's mercy can they be reached.

[James Banta]

BigJulie;150064] Because at his very nature and core, He is God. I am not.

I think we have gone over this before. The gospel of Christ teaches us that we have always existed as "intelligences" (the core of who we are.) Therefore, if you sin--it isn't because God made you flawed, it is because this is who you are at your core. Jesus Christ atoned for our sins and has given us the aid of the Holy Ghost so that we can overcome this nature. Unlike us though, Christ's nature is perfect. This is why he is "one" with God the Father. There is nothing about Christ that would ever desire to go against the Father. This can be seen perfectly in scriptures such as "Luke 22:42: Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. "

You say that you believe the Bible, do you or not.. The Bible teaches us that God created our spirits within us.. The Bible doesn't comment on every possible invention of a man's heart. It says nothing about the existence of walking stones, or goblins. It is also silent on any non created part of a man.. What is said is that God created man in His own image.. We are also taught that He made man a little lower than the angels (Psalm 8:4-5). Doesn't that tell you that the angelic creation is separate from the creation of man? And doesn't the Bible teaching that God created the spirit of man within him (Zechariah 12:1) tell you that there was no preexistence? If you believe the word of God above the word of mere men THEN IT SHOULD.. You don't have to believe a word I say.. I would rather you didn't.. It would be better for you to go and look at God's word for yourself see it these things are so..


What? I stormed out of this forum? Where did you get that idea? I went to get into this forum one time and the site was hacked by some Muslim group. I decided maybe it was not safe site for a while. It had nothing to do with you.

That is good to know. You exit was sudden right after sir made it clear that I has sinned.. I hurt a lot of people mostly my Lord. I have repented of that CRIME. I have shown here that I have even followed the step by step process of LDS repentance, even to the time needed to show that I had truly forsaken my sin.. There is only one that would continue to point at such a repentant sinner as guilty and that in Satan.. If anyone after 12 years continues to bring it up and p*** it around like it is still a part of me.. They are doing Satan's work of accusing the brothern.. God word contains a promise that has become close to me. It says "God made Him (Jesus) who knew no sin to become sin for me, that I might be the righteousness of God in Him" (2 CORINTHIANS 5:21).. That may again be something mormonism denies but it is a pillar doctrine of the Bible..


That said, the history of this church is definitely messy at times. I acknowledge and accept that. It is not hard for me as the history of the gospel is messy. My word, read the Old Testament and see if you don't scratch your head at times.

I don't understand what you are saying here.. Are you saying that prophets as Smith insisted he was went around committing the kinds of adulteries and polygamy that Smith did? Who of all the prophets after their call committed such sins? Can you point to one? Oh yes we can find Judah going to his own daughter in law believing her to be a prosti tute. But Judah was never a spiritual leader among his brothers was he? The Bible doesn't report that.. Can you show me any example where a prophet involved himself in such sin as to try to convince another man's wife to become his polygamous wife? Does it matter is sexual activity was involved or not? Didn't Zina Huntington Jacobs end up leaving her husband and finally end up in Brigham Young's bed? All the time she gain no divorce from her husband Henry Jacobs.. Tell me what the name is for that kind of behavior? Did you ever hear that any of them Smith, Young, or Ms Jacobs ever even felt the need to repent of their crimes? How can a man call himself a prophet of God and live in such a nasty situation with a married woman? That isn't God's will for anyone, and that is what polygamy causes.. Julie, polygamy it still is showing that ugly side in the mistreatment of girls in forcing them to marry OLD men in Colorado City and Hildale the capital of the FLDS community. They even expel their young men, many while they are still minors.. There is no way such a system of marriage is of God.. Then, now, or in the future.. And yet this is taught by a man the LDS church reveres as a prophet of God to be taught and accepted as means to gain eternal life (Journal of Discourses vol. 11, p. 269).. The Bible teaches that everlasting life is gain through faith in Jesus (John 3:16)


But to me, there is the history and then there is revelation. The history contains the behavior and understanding of humans as they go about trying to understand and do God's will. The revelation is pure. As I have explained before, this is something like trying to understand Thomas Edison (the history) versus trying to understand the light bulb (the revelation). If I tried to determine if electricity is something that is useful in my life by understanding Thomas Edison, I might throw it all away because I didn't like the way he treated Tesla. On the other hand, if I am trying to understand the light bulb and if it works, I can buy one--stick it into a lamp--plug it in and see if it helps my life.

The invention of the light bulb is not part of history? Since when? How about the creation of the atomic bomb, it that part of history, or is it a revelation? I don't understand how everything that has taken place is not also history.. If history found out, as it is said, that the first electric light was made in 1800 by Humphry Davy? What does that make of Edison's reputation? I wouldn't call him a thief, I would call him an improver of an existing idea.. But the inverter of the light bulb.. No.. I would call Smith an author, a dynamic personality, but in no way a prophet of God.. (I don't know if you can tell but I am not a huge believer in the genesis of Edison..)


My testimony exists because I have applied the truth of the gospel and just like the light bulb, I can see it works and it is good for my life.

The gospel you are applying to you life is a gospel of works and a gospel that Paul never taught. It is the other gospel he warned the Church of as he recorded the message of God on the subject to us in Galatians 1:8-9. The Gospel is what Jesus did for us.. His work of redemption. Within it there are no laws, no ordinances. The only covenant made is the covenant that He will give us eternal life as we hold faith in Him.. I can see how your church has a great hold on you and it really doesn't matter if you continue in the LDS church or not.. There is no commandment that you can't be a mormon.. The commandment is to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. So be a mormon, just be one that believes the Bible, the word of God instead of a man Joseph Smith.. Accept the God that has always been God as your God.. Believe Him that no other Gods have been or will ever be formed. Believe Him that in believing on Him you have everlasting life.. All the other teaching of men whether they come from Smith, Young or Monson can be sat aside.. All you must hold to become His daughter is faith in the Jesus who is revealed in the Bible.. IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

I am glad you have found peace. I am sad you feel you never belonged.

For me, the longer I am Mormon, the deeper my testimony grows. I have a testimony of Jesus Christ. He is my Savior. Every day, my faith turns to purer and purer knowledge as I see the results of having a testimony of the gospel of Jesus Christ. I can't imagine my life without it.
Saddy one day you may. There are many jesus's out there however only the Jesus of the Holy Bible can save us from our sins, and eternal ****ation. Joseph Smith jr. Played a very sick joke on you and until your eyes are open to the truth of the Holy Savior then of course your testimony of Joseph Smith jr. Jesus will only continue.

[BigJulie]

[/B]
Saddy one day you may. There are many jesus's out there however only the Jesus of the Holy Bible can save us from our sins, and eternal ****ation. Joseph Smith jr. Played a very sick joke on you and until your eyes are open to the truth of the Holy Savior then of course your testimony of Joseph Smith jr. Jesus will only continue.

Yes, I agree. Only the Jesus Christ (as we learn about in the Bible) can save us from our sins and eternal ****ation. Joseph Smith did not play a sick joke on me. My eyes are open to the truth. Oh trust me, I have looked at your religion. I have looked at what you believe and I have compared it to what is taught in the Bible. Sorry, I do not agree with your interpretation of it. In fact, I have seen with my own eyes what happens when you misread the Bible and what you lose. I will give you examples:

1) Misunderstanding the importance of working toward your salvation. Now--does this mean that we "earn" our salvation or that is not Christ's grace that saves us? Absolutely not. What it means is that "works" are an important part of our salvation. I have witnessed that those who do not understand the importance of work often feel that they do not need to work to do as God asks. The overall effect of this is spiritual laziness and lack of growth. We think God should save us and that there should be no work or suffering on our part as we learn. The overall effects I see are people wanting to be "saved' from any hardship and that it is "unrighteous" that anyone should suffer. We make government our God to fix the problems of this happy state we should enjoy without work. Young people do not understand they need to work to stay chaste--they think it should come automatically without effort. This is a false doctrine that leads many into needless suffering and misery.


Phl 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

2) Misunderstanding of the eternal nature of marriage and of family. Because Christian religions have lost the eternal nature of the family, marriage has taken on a whole new meaning in our society as well as gender. What does it matter what gender you marry when marriage is only an inst.itution for this life? What does it matter what gender you are, if your gender becomes nullified in the next life---(somehow we are neutered in the eternities or something like that.) As a result, we have lost the reverence we should have for marriage and for chast.ity. When one understands that God is a God of creation and that we are part of his creation--and as such--perfecting us means to perfect our abilities to create--then marriage, chast.ity, and children take on a whole new level of sacredness. We can see the ramifications in our world today when the eternal nature of marriage is lost.


1Cr 11:11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

3) The gift of revelation. Because so many churches deny current revelation, they also deny revelation to the individual. They believe only certain types of prayers can be answered and one cannot ask for spiritual direction of what is right or wrong. They teach that one should not trust their "feelings." But to deny our feelings is to deny the essence of who we are. We feel love, joy, peace, guilt--all of these "feelings" are what direct us to what is good and help us understand who God is. We can also recognize the "feelings" of the flesh such as lust, anger, hatefulness and recognize that this is NOT the spirit of God. By teaching people that they cannot trust their feelings, you deny the very way in which we gain a relationship with God. While the scriptures teach us how to reach God, ultimately salvation comes from knowing God. My experience is that those who have learned to deny their feelings, only trusting on the interpretations of others, become tossed by the winds and are more likely to be tossed about by the doctrines of the world. Am I surprised then to see children who have been taught to deny they can know God by how they feel then just are readily as they believed their parents turned and believed someone other than their parents?


Jhn 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

These are just a few examples. I could go on.

[Billyray]

Yes, I agree. Only the Jesus Christ (as we learn about in the Bible) can save us from our sins and eternal ****ation.
But the Mormon jesus is not the one that is taught in the Bible.

[nrajeffreturns]

But the Mormon jesus is not the one that is taught in the Bible.

Neither is the Evan jesus.

[BigJulie]

But the Mormon jesus is not the one that is taught in the Bible.

But, clearly to me He is and the Christ you believe in is not. You do not interpret the Bible the same way I do. That you have made clear.

[Apologette]

But, clearly to me He is and the Christ you believe in is not. You do not interpret the Bible the same way I do. That you have made clear.
How can the Biblical Jesus be your Jesus when HE is the King of Israel, and not your false prophet, Joe Smith?

[nrajeffreturns]

How can the Biblical Jesus be your Jesus when HE is the King of Israel, and not your false prophet, Joe Smith?
How can the Evan Jesus be the right one, when you Evans believe you will be judging the tribes of Israel but the Bible Jesus is supposed to rule and judge it?

[RealFakeHair]

Yes, I have looked at what you believe and I have compared it to what is taught in the Bible. Sorry, I do not agree with your interpretation of it. In fact, I have seen with my own eyes what happens when you misread the Bible and what you lose. I will give you examples:

1) Misunderstanding the importance of working toward your salvation. Now--does this mean that we "earn" our salvation or that is not Christ's grace that saves us? Absolutely not.

(RFH) Okay, end of story. Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible is our Salvation, and it is by His Grace.
You are trying to have it both ways, His Grace and our works which if it were true it means some end up with more Grace than others. However the Holy Bible doesn't every say that!

Phl 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

(RFH) Why of course we must work out our own Salvation. Kind of puts a dent into the baptism for the dead folk don't it.
Each soul is repsonsible for their own acceptence of Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible as their personal Savior, and we should fear and trembling the All Mighty God, for in Him is everything.
2) Misunderstanding of the eternal nature of marriage and of family. 1Cr 11:11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

(RFH) First off the bat! There is nothing at ALL in the Holy Bible of an eternal family! Your religion is based upon a lie conjured up by the imaginary mind of your dead leader and god Joseph Smith jr. Saddy this is one reason the Gates of Hell will welcome you and your eternal family into Satan's present's.
Your savior is the Devil and his prophet Joseph Smith jr. Get out while you can.

3) The gift of revelation. Because so many churches deny current revelation, they also deny revelation to the individual. They believe only certain types of prayers can be answered and one cannot ask for spiritual direction of what is right or wrong. They teach that one should not trust their "feelings." But to deny our feelings is to deny the essence of who we are. We feel love, joy, peace, guilt--all of these "feelings" are what direct us to what is good and help us understand who God is. Jhn 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

(RFH) I totally agree with you about your feelings and thus it will keep you from knowing the Truth of the Holy Bible and The True Savior of the World Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible. I for one never trust my feelings over the Word of God, never have and never will. Any revelation I might receive from God must match up with the Holy Bible, and not the imaginary mind of your dear leader Joseph Smith jr.






These are just a few examples. I could go on.

Your examples are what keeps the Christian and the mormon apart and always will, thank you.

[Apologette]

Your examples are what keeps the Christian and the mormon apart and always will, thank you.
As long as the Mormons justify the sordid life of Joseph Smith, there can never even be dialogue.

[BigJulie]

(RFH) Okay, end of story. Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible is our Salvation, and it is by His Grace.
You are trying to have it both ways, His Grace and our works which if it were true it means some end up with more Grace than others. However the Holy Bible doesn't every say that!
Nope, not end of story---otherwise, you could throw the majority of the NT away.

This is how I see your argument. Christ says "For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it."

You would reply to Christ---you can't have it both ways. Truth is, the opposite of the truth is a lie. The opposite of a profound truth is usually another profound truth.


(RFH) Why of course we must work out our own Salvation. Kind of puts a dent into the baptism for the dead folk don't it.

Nope, once again--you see things as one way or another and that it cannot be both. First, you recognize that we must work out our own salvation (as it is right in the scriptures) but then deny it above. But here it is again. If we must work out our own salvation, why would we do baptism for the dead? Because part of our own salvation is to do what we can for others. Doing things for someone else that they cannot do for themselves is a key point of the gospel as is seen with the atonement where Christ did what we could not do for ourselves. Once again, it is a save your life by losing it kind of statement and requires deeper thinking to understand.


(RFH) First off the bat! There is nothing at ALL in the Holy Bible of an eternal family! Your religion is based upon a lie conjured up by the imaginary mind of your dead leader and god Joseph Smith jr. Saddy this is one reason the Gates of Hell will welcome you and your eternal family into Satan's present's.
Your savior is the Devil and his prophet Joseph Smith jr. Get out while you can.

Actually, the whole of the Bible and the main point of it is the eternal family---the main one being the eternal family of God. The second main family is that of Abraham and then the discussion of the Bible becomes the family of Israel. This theme is the main theme of the Bible. Christ's whole mission was to return this family to God and to reunite that which had been separated.


(RFH) I totally agree with you about your feelings and thus it will keep you from knowing the Truth of the Holy Bible and The True Savior of the World Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible. I for one never trust my feelings over the Word of God, never have and never will. Any revelation I might receive from God must match up with the Holy Bible, and not the imaginary mind of your dear leader Joseph Smith jr. Yes, as I said--this is the main difference between your beliefs and mine. I see that the Bible can be interpreted in many ways and that is why there is so much disagreement about what different p***ages mean. Even the Pharisees, though they had the word of God and studied it, missed God himself. That is why I recognize that our Spiritual ability to recognize and be taught truth from God as to how he wants us to understand his scriptures is central to salvation.

Your examples are what keeps the Christian and the mormon apart and always will, thank you.[/QUOTE]

I agree wholeheartedly that you and I do not see things the same way.

[Apologette]

Julie, who is King over Israel? Joseph Smith or Jesus Christ?

[nrajeffreturns]

Julie, who is King over Israel? Joseph Smith or Jesus Christ?

You mean right now?

[RealFakeHair]

You mean right now?

lol, yeah right now or even in the pasted or future?

[neverending]

WOW, a Mormon who actually admits that we Christians don't interpret the Bible the same as they do. Well, we have seen where their interpretation has taken them. It is leading them straight to the Lake of Fire. Julie, has your Jesus always existed as God or not? Is your god an exalted man, or not? Do you believe that you MUST do good works or not gain salvation? And doing temple work is a work, which I know you are commanded to do by your leaders. And how does baptizing for the dead help anyone? Or doing a dead person's temple work? There are no second chances. ALL your temples are for doing work for dead people, how sad plus it does not follow the temple of the Bible at all! When was the last time an animal was sacrificed in one of your many temples? You continue to ignore me when I said, "Jesus never taught about temple marriage." Why didn't he? Waiting for an answer.

[BigJulie]

Julie, who is King over Israel? Joseph Smith or Jesus Christ?

What? Why on earth do you ask this question?

[Apologette]

You mean right now?

No, it's not you Jeff. Thought you got help for that.

[Apologette]

How can the Evan Jesus be the right one, when you Evans believe you will be judging the tribes of Israel but the Bible Jesus is supposed to rule and judge it?

Give me the Scriptural reference pal.

[BigJulie]

WOW, a Mormon who actually admits that we Christians don't interpret the Bible the same as they do. Well, we have seen where their interpretation has taken them. It is leading them straight to the Lake of Fire. Julie, has your Jesus always existed as God or not? Is your god an exalted man, or not? Do you believe that you MUST do good works or not gain salvation? And doing temple work is a work, which I know you are commanded to do by your leaders. And how does baptizing for the dead help anyone? Or doing a dead person's temple work? There are no second chances. ALL your temples are for doing work for dead people, how sad plus it does not follow the temple of the Bible at all! When was the last time an animal was sacrificed in one of your many temples? You continue to ignore me when I said, "Jesus never taught about temple marriage." Why didn't he? Waiting for an answer.


Yes, Jesus Christ is God. Has always been, will always be. It is because His nature is perfect and has always been that way.

But, he was also born, lived a life and died and then God the Father put all things under his feet---meaning that now, not only was His nature always perfect, but now He has overcome all. But he was part of the Godhead prior to His birth.

Yes, my God is an exalted man. Jesus Christ was a man and is exalted.

I believe I must do good works or I will reap the rewards of those who do not follow God---mainly eternal ****ation. That is what he tells us are the rewards for not following Him.

Anything we do that follows Christ is work. What we do with our bodies is called work.

Baptizing the dead helps them by doing for them what they can not do for themselves. As they are dead and have lost their bodies, they are unable to do those things they need that Christ asked them to do. When Christ died on the cross, he did for everyone what they could not do for themselves---whether they were dead or alive. Doing work for others is part of the gospel. Christ asks us to do as He did and do those life saving things they can not do anymore.

There are no second chances, but there are first chances. Many have lived and died without the opportunity to learn of Christ and be baptized. We will all be judged according to what we knew and what we did--but there are many who did not know truth.

We do not do animal sacrifices. The sacrifice that ended the sacrifice of animals was the death of Christ. Our sacrifice is now ourselves. We give ourselves over to God.

Christ has taught of the eternal family sense the time of Adam. Why make all the promises to Israel about reconnecting the family or bringing it back together if an eternal family is not part of his plan?

[RealFakeHair]

Yes, Jesus Christ is God. Has always been, will always be. It is because His nature is perfect and has always been that way.

But, he was also born, lived a life and died and then God the Father put all things under his feet---meaning that now, not only was His nature always perfect, but now He has overcome all. But he was part of the Godhead prior to His birth.

Yes, my God is an exalted man. Jesus Christ was a man and is exalted

I will always remember the episode in South Park. Dumb-dumb-dedumb....

[Apologette]

Yes, Jesus Christ is God. Has always been, will always be. It is because His nature is perfect and has always been that way.

But, he was also born, lived a life and died and then God the Father put all things under his feet---meaning that now, not only was His nature always perfect, but now He has overcome all. But he was part of the Godhead prior to His birth.

Yes, my God is an exalted man. Jesus Christ was a man and is exalted.

I believe I must do good works or I will reap the rewards of those who do not follow God---mainly eternal ****ation. That is what he tells us are the rewards for not following Him.

Anything we do that follows Christ is work. What we do with our bodies is called work.

Baptizing the dead helps them by doing for them what they can not do for themselves. As they are dead and have lost their bodies, they are unable to do those things they need that Christ asked them to do. When Christ died on the cross, he did for everyone what they could not do for themselves---whether they were dead or alive. Doing work for others is part of the gospel. Christ asks us to do as He did and do those life saving things they can not do anymore.

There are no second chances, but there are first chances. Many have lived and died without the opportunity to learn of Christ and be baptized. We will all be judged according to what we knew and what we did--but there are many who did not know truth.

We do not do animal sacrifices. The sacrifice that ended the sacrifice of animals was the death of Christ. Our sacrifice is now ourselves. We give ourselves over to God.

Christ has taught of the eternal family sense the time of Adam. Why make all the promises to Israel about reconnecting the family or bringing it back together if an eternal family is not part of his plan?
You know doesn't Mormon deception have any boundaries? How could your MORMON Jesus have been always God when your cult states that he had to "attain" godhood by obedience?:

http://www.sharpenedsword.com/page/page/3770688.htm

[James Banta]

Yes, Jesus Christ is God. Has always been, will always be. It is because His nature is perfect and has always been that way.

But, he was also born, lived a life and died and then God the Father put all things under his feet---meaning that now, not only was His nature always perfect, but now He has overcome all. But he was part of the Godhead prior to His birth.

Yes, my God is an exalted man. Jesus Christ was a man and is exalted.

I believe I must do good works or I will reap the rewards of those who do not follow God---mainly eternal ****ation. That is what he tells us are the rewards for not following Him.

Anything we do that follows Christ is work. What we do with our bodies is called work.

Baptizing the dead helps them by doing for them what they can not do for themselves. As they are dead and have lost their bodies, they are unable to do those things they need that Christ asked them to do. When Christ died on the cross, he did for everyone what they could not do for themselves---whether they were dead or alive. Doing work for others is part of the gospel. Christ asks us to do as He did and do those life saving things they can not do anymore.

There are no second chances, but there are first chances. Many have lived and died without the opportunity to learn of Christ and be baptized. We will all be judged according to what we knew and what we did--but there are many who did not know truth.

We do not do animal sacrifices. The sacrifice that ended the sacrifice of animals was the death of Christ. Our sacrifice is now ourselves. We give ourselves over to God.

Christ has taught of the eternal family sense the time of Adam. Why make all the promises to Israel about reconnecting the family or bringing it back together if an eternal family is not part of his plan?

How is life out there in left field all by yourself..I say that because even your prophet taught that God became God.. Jesus was said to be the first born in the preexistence and at the time He was so born He had not yet became God.. He is taught in mormonism as becoming a God but only due to His willingness to be obedient to the Father.. I would have though you knew all those things taught as truth in mormonism..

You are right that Jesus is exalted above all things.. You are right that he has a Body, you are wrong that He was raised as a man, He is not a man exalted or Not, He is God.

Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

His body like ours will be was changed. He is no longer in the same body in which He died.

1 Corinthians 15:43-44
It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

So Jesus was raised in a Spiritual Body. Being in such He was NOT A MAN exalted or not..

You still claim that Good works are required for salvation into the Kingdom of God.. I have shown you where the Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul spells iy out so clearly a blind man could see it.. He says NOT OF WORKS so that no man can boast.. Jesus taught Nicodemus that everlasting live is obtained through having faith in Him.. By saying that you MUST do good works to see His salvation you again call God a liar.. If you don't repent from that you will find your place in the Lake of Fire..

All men have had their one and only chance.. Again the scripture teaches that:

Romans 1:20-23
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

There is no excuse before God.. You either come to the God that is revealed through all He has made and stop seeing Him as the image of corruptible man (in the case of the LDS) or you will suffer for your rejection of Him.. Again there is no second chance and there is no excuse.. There is no baptism for the dead. Te Church never practiced such an ordinance.. To show the proof of the resurrection Paul did mention those that did practice that ordinance but never confirmed it was an ordinance of the Church..

Without sacrifice as you demand the LDS church doesn't do there is no need for priesthood.. The Church does offer sacrifice.. Animal no, but we offer the sacrifice of praise (Hebrews 13:15), and everyone in the Church are kings and PRIESTS unto God (Revelation 1:6)..

There is no reference in the Bible that this eternal family you teach is anything other than God being our eternal Father and those of believing mankind becoming His children.. Not teaching that always were His children but become His children through faith in Jesus (John 1:12)..

I have given you scripture reference for everything I have said here. Too bad you could offer the same.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

You know doesn't Mormon deception have any boundaries? How could your MORMON Jesus have been always God when your cult states that he had to "attain" godhood by obedience?:

http://www.sharpenedsword.com/page/page/3770688.htm

Actually, that is from the Bible. That God put all things under his feet. But, if you look, you will see that there are plenty of LDS scriptures that refer to the eternal nature of Christ.


Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:


Tools specific to Hbr 2:8

Hbr 2:8

Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.


Hbr 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE=James Banta;150254]How is life out there in left field all by yourself..I say that because even your prophet taught that God became God.. Jesus was said to be the first born in the preexistence and at the time He was so born He had not yet became God.. He is taught in mormonism as becoming a God but only due to His willingness to be obedient to the Father.. I would have though you knew all those things taught as truth in mormonism.. You are misunderstanding the quote you are referring to.

Anything we learn about Jesus Christ, we can apply to God the Father--that is what Christ teaches us. What do we know about Christ? He has an intelligence that has always existed eternally and that intelligence or nature is perfect. He became a man, suffered as a man, died, was exalted.

And as far as being obedient--which came first-the chicken or the egg? Was his nature perfect and therefore he was perfectly obedient, or was he perfectly obedient and therefore,his nature was always perfect. As noted, God the Father put all things under his feet and exalted him. That is Biblical. That should cause you some confusion there---why would God have to be exalted and have anything put under his feet? Wouldn't it be there already?



You are right that Jesus is exalted above all things.. You are right that he has a Body, you are wrong that He was raised as a man, He is not a man exalted or Not, He is God. Christ was never exalted? Or was never a man? Which one are you saying?

[
B]Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?[/B] I guess this would give great cause to the Pharisees to not believe that Christ was God. Is that what you are trying to argue?


1 Corinthians 15:43-44
It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

So Jesus was raised in a Spiritual Body. Being in such He was NOT A MAN exalted or not.. So, you don't think Christ was ever a man?


All men have had their one and only chance.. Again the scripture teaches that:

Romans 1:20-23
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.


Yes, I agree, but some never got a first chance to know of Christ. Umm, we recognize that God the Father is perfect, as is Christ. Not sure what you are trying to state here.


There is no reference in the Bible that this eternal family you teach is anything other than God being our eternal Father and those of believing mankind becoming His children.. Not teaching that always were His children but become His children through faith in Jesus (John 1:12)..

I have given you scripture reference for everything I have said here. Too bad you could offer the same.. IHS jim I give you the Bible as a whole. It is one giant testimony as to the eternal family of God. Then it teaches of the eternal family of Israel. If you don't understand this, you miss the point of the Bible and why Christ came to save His people.

[nrajeffreturns]

lol, yeah right now or even in the pasted or future?

Well, in the past Israel has had kings such as Solomon, David, Hezekiah, and Josiah.
In the future, Christ will be the "king of the Jews" but He isn't doing much as their king right now, so it seems that right now they are king-less. They do have a Prime Minister. His name is Benjamin Netanyahu, and he seems to be a good man and a valiant leader and defender of Israel, but he is not the king.

Do you have any other relevant questions that I can answer for you?

[James Banta]

[BigJulie;150277][QUOTE] You are misunderstanding the quote you are referring to.

Anything we learn about Jesus Christ, we can apply to God the Father--that is what Christ teaches us. What do we know about Christ? He has an intelligence that has always existed eternally and that intelligence or nature is perfect. He became a man, suffered as a man, died, was exalted.

And as far as being obedient--which came first-the chicken or the egg? Was his nature perfect and therefore he was perfectly obedient, or was he perfectly obedient and therefore,his nature was always perfect. As noted, God the Father put all things under his feet and exalted him. That is Biblical. That should cause you some confusion there---why would God have to be exalted and have anything put under his feet? Wouldn't it be there already?


Christ was never exalted? Or was never a man? Which one are you saying?

[ I guess this would give great cause to the Pharisees to not believe that Christ was God. Is that what you are trying to argue?

So, you don't think Christ was ever a man?

I am pleased to hear you say that Jesus and the Father are one.. That speaking of Jesus is speaking about the Father. So when we see that God has been God from everlasting to everlasting that is speaking of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.. I think I understand English to understand that when someone teaches that God became God they are saying that they haven't always been God.. Thomas S. Monson became the President of the LDS church.. He wasn't always the President.. He BECAME President.. So if we are taught that God became God there must have been a time before He was God.. You tell me I don't understand Smith's statement in the quote I used.. Here it is direct from the History of the Church. A history that is controlled by the LDS church:


In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of
those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary we should
understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I
am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed
that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away
the veil, so that you may see. History of the Church vol. 6, p. 305)

How do I misunderstand that Smith will refute the idea that God has been God from all eternity? Show me how that doesn't mean what he said and means something else.. It isn't Smith that confuses me in his doctrine it is you that doesn't make sense..



Yes, I agree, but some never got a first chance to know of Christ. Umm, we recognize that God the Father is perfect, as is Christ. Not sure what you are trying to state here.

What I am saying that God has made Himself know through all He has created.. Therefore NO ONE has an excuse.. How will those that worship God without knowing His word or ever hearing about Jesus? I believe God is just and His judgments will be just as just as He is.. But this p***age makes it clear that there is no second chance after death. We will be judged and know for a fact that what ever decision God has arrived at is JUST.. God say that they can see His Glory and His eternal Godhood. God say in given those things alone we would be without excuse.. No one can say "But I didn't know" I am sure that most will say that as God shows them how they rejected His word, That they said that nature just happened.. Like the most lost of cannibalistic aboriginal peoples of places like New Guinea they saw the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are CAN BE clearly seen, that can being understood by the things that He made, even his eternal power and Godhead. No one no matter where they are or who they are have an excuse..


I give you the Bible as a whole. It is one giant testimony as to the eternal family of God. Then it teaches of the eternal family of Israel. If you don't understand this, you miss the point of the Bible and why Christ came to save His people.

The Bible is a message from God explaining who He is and what He has done.. It's all about Him, it isn't about us (Isaiah 43:7).. How He will adopt us into His family (John 1:12).. Even LDS scripture tell this story in Moses 1:39.. Seem that today's LDS church has taken that *** way from God and demands on doing it themselves.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE=James Banta;150282][QUOTE]

I am pleased to hear you say that Jesus and the Father are one.. That speaking of Jesus is speaking about the Father. So when we see that God has been God from everlasting to everlasting that is speaking of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.. I think I understand English to understand that when someone teaches that God became God they are saying that they haven't always been God.. Thomas S. Monson became the President of the LDS church.. He wasn't always the President.. He BECAME President.. So if we are taught that God became God there must have been a time before He was God.. You tell me I don't understand Smith's statement in the quote I used.. Here it is direct from the History of the Church. A history that is controlled by the LDS church:


In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of
those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary we should
understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I
am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed
that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away
the veil, so that you may see. History of the Church vol. 6, p. 305) Yes, easy enough then to understand that God (Jesus)---but you have to understand the context in which this was said and the backdrop of understanding of who Christ was for all eternity---as understood in the context of the whole gospel.


How do I misunderstand that Smith will refute the idea that God has been God from all eternity? Show me how that doesn't mean what he said and means something else.. It isn't Smith that confuses me in his doctrine it is you that doesn't make sense..

Christ was not "God" in the sense that all things were not under his feet until after he had atoned for the sins of the world. He was God in the sense of who his nature is--unchanging and forever.





What I am saying that God has made Himself know through all He has created.. Therefore NO ONE has an excuse.. How will those that worship God without knowing His word or ever hearing about Jesus? I believe God is just and His judgments will be just as just as He is.. But this p***age makes it clear that there is no second chance after death. We will be judged and know for a fact that what ever decision God has arrived at is JUST.. God say that they can see His Glory and His eternal Godhood. God say in given those things alone we would be without excuse.. No one can say "But I didn't know" I am sure that most will say that as God shows them how they rejected His word, That they said that nature just happened.. Like the most lost of cannibalistic aboriginal peoples of places like New Guinea they saw the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are CAN BE clearly seen, that can being understood by the things that He made, even his eternal power and Godhead. No one no matter where they are or who they are have an excuse..
Really, so what about those who were born prior to Christ in a part of the world that was completely unaware of Christ? How do they know God? Is it okay if they worshipped a "God" but they did not know it was Christ? Or is knowing Christ and important part of salvation?



The Bible is a message from God explaining who He is and what He has done.. It's all about Him, it isn't about us (Isaiah 43:7).. How He will adopt us into His family (John 1:12).. Even LDS scripture tell this story in Moses 1:39.. Seem that today's LDS church has taken that *** way from God and demands on doing it themselves.. IHS jim No, but as always, God expects us to be involved in the work--just as he did Peter, James, John, and others.

[neverending]

[QUOTE][QUOTE=James Banta;150282] Yes, easy enough then to understand that God (Jesus)---but you have to understand the context in which this was said and the backdrop of understanding of who Christ was for all eternity---as understood in the context of the whole gospel.



Christ was not "God" in the sense that all things were not under his feet until after he had atoned for the sins of the world. He was God in the sense of who his nature is--unchanging and forever.





Really, so what about those who were born prior to Christ in a part of the world that was completely unaware of Christ? How do they know God? Is it okay if they worshipped a "God" but they did not know it was Christ? Or is knowing Christ and important part of salvation?


No, but as always, God expects us to be involved in the work--just as he did Peter, James, John, and others.

Julie....just this morning you claimed that Jesus has always been God. Now you say this, "Christ was not "God" in the sense that all things were not under his feet until after he had atoned for the sins of the world. He was God in the sense of who his nature is--unchanging and forever."

Now you are back peddling so I don't think you even know what you believe. Jesus has been God forever! He is part of the trinity. He was there when this Earth was created, he created the visible and invisible. CFR where it says he wasn't God until he atoned for the sins of the world. I know of no place in the Bible that says any such thing! You continue to make up things as you go along. Can you not see the inconsistencies of your comments? Your church's doctrines have your brain all messed up. You will be in my prayers that the Holy Spirit will begin to work in your heart and mind and clear out the cobwebs. These doctrines are not of God.

[BigJulie]

Julie....just this morning you claimed that Jesus has always been God. Now you say this, "Christ was not "God" in the sense that all things were not under his feet until after he had atoned for the sins of the world. He was God in the sense of who his nature is--unchanging and forever."

Now you are back peddling so I don't think you even know what you believe. Jesus has been God forever! He is part of the trinity. He was there when this Earth was created, he created the visible and invisible. CFR where it says he wasn't God until he atoned for the sins of the world. I know of no place in the Bible that says any such thing! You continue to make up things as you go along. Can you not see the inconsistencies of your comments? Your church's doctrines have your brain all messed up. You will be in my prayers that the Holy Spirit will begin to work in your heart and mind and clear out the cobwebs. These doctrines are not of God.



Yes, Christ was part of the Godhead prior to the earth's creation. I am referring to this scripture:
1Cr 15:27-28 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Clearly, there was a point that "all things" were subdued unto Christ...such as death.

When do you think this happened? Or do you think it was this way from eternity to eternity and that things were never subdued unto him?

[neverending]

Yes, Christ was part of the Godhead prior to the earth's creation. I am referring to this scripture:
1Cr 15:27-28 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Clearly, there was a point that "all things" were subdued unto Christ...such as death.

When do you think this happened? Or do you think it was this way from eternity to eternity and that things were never subdued unto him?

Before Abraham "WAS, I AM". So what does this mean? Jesus took this name onto himself and it means, God! This is why people picked up stones to try and stone Jesus for him proclaiming he was God! Now, did God die (Jesus) since you said, "Christ WAS part of the Godhead......." Was is past tense. Jesus "IS" God and he IS part of the Godhead and always has been, always will be and is now! This verse is speaking of the end times when Jesus will be King of this Earth, everything will be put under his feet; when everything has been summed up. I do think you have read something into these scripture verses that aren't really there. Since Jesus is omnipresent, then yes, all things are subdued unto him forever, and ever. It continues for eternity and always will. Was there ever a time when Jesus was not God?

[BigJulie]

Before Abraham "WAS, I AM". So what does this mean? Jesus took this name onto himself and it means, God! This is why people picked up stones to try and stone Jesus for him proclaiming he was God! Now, did God die (Jesus) since you said, "Christ WAS part of the Godhead......." Was is past tense. Jesus "IS" God and he IS part of the Godhead and always has been, always will be and is now! This verse is speaking of the end times when Jesus will be King of this Earth, everything will be put under his feet; when everything has been summed up. I do think you have read something into these scripture verses that aren't really there. Since Jesus is omnipresent, then yes, all things are subdued unto him forever, and ever. It continues for eternity and always will. Was there ever a time when Jesus was not God?

You know neverending---just as you have stated that I have convinced you that you never want to look at Mormonism again...you have convinced me that I don't really want to carry on any further discussions with you. I do not put all of Christianity in the same boat, as I have met many I liked. But you I don't really care to talk to any further. Sorry.

[James Banta]

You know neverending---just as you have stated that I have convinced you that you never want to look at Mormonism again...you have convinced me that I don't really want to carry on any further discussions with you. I do not put all of Christianity in the same boat, as I have met many I liked. But you I don't really care to talk to any further. Sorry.

The best way to show us that you won't be responding is to not respond. Then again you had to try to make it appear like you were the one being noble.. I have seen both of you speaking out in anger. I think it,s a wonderful idea that you don't respond for the foreseeable future. The two of you don't seem to be able to get along at all. Never ending is p***ionate about her faith just as you seem to be p***ionate about your religion.. IHS. jim

[RealFakeHair]

Well, in the past Israel has had kings such as Solomon, David, Hezekiah, and Josiah.
In the future, Christ will be the "king of the Jews" but He isn't doing much as their king right now, so it seems that right now they are king-less. They do have a Prime Minister. His name is Benjamin Netanyahu, and he seems to be a good man and a valiant leader and defender of Israel, but he is not the king.

Do you have any other relevant questions that I can answer for you?

Pretty good answer, thank you. However Jesus of the Holy Bible is Lord of Lords and King of Kings, but not president of the LDSinc.

[nrajeffreturns]

Pretty good answer, thank you.
It's good to see you acknowledging that the claim that I never address doctrinal issues with anything but mocking, was a demonstrably false claim.


However Jesus of the Holy Bible is Lord of Lords and King of Kings
how about "God of gods" ?


but not president of the LDSinc.
Of course Jesus isn't the President of the LDS church. He has appointed Thomas S. Monson to be the man currently holding that position. Jesus is higher up in the hierarchy.

[James Banta]

[nrajeffreturns;150334]how about "God of gods" ?

Yes God (Jesus) is God of gods.. He created all things. Even those we call devils.. All His creation is subject to Him.. That include the devils that were seen as gods to ancient people as well as the imaginations of their own evil hearts that turned to build idols.. Yes YHWH is the God of gods..



Of course Jesus isn't the President of the LDS church. He has appointed Thomas S. Monson to be the man currently holding that position. Jesus is higher up in the hierarchy.

Yes the Jesus of Joseph Smith imagination is the God of mormonism.. A Jesus that became a God after the Father was already God, (See Isaiah 43:10).. A Jesus that was the brother of the being that became Satan, and our own brother as well.. A god that couldn't create even a small stone but only organize matter in to the form he wanted it to take.. You have have your false god.. You can say that it appointed men to speak for him.. I believe that as much as you.. What I disbelieve is that such a being you proscribe the name Jesus to is not the Jesus revealed in the Bible.. He is NOT the mighty God the everlasting Father. He didn't do all the work for our salvation and offer us that blessing though holding faith in Him.. Jesus is the MOST HIGH. Not just higher up in some invented hierarchy.. IHS jim

[neverending]

You know neverending---just as you have stated that I have convinced you that you never want to look at Mormonism again...you have convinced me that I don't really want to carry on any further discussions with you. I do not put all of Christianity in the same boat, as I have met many I liked. But you I don't really care to talk to any further. Sorry.

We can finally agree on something for I don't care to talk to you any further. Run, hide, ignore the posts I've made, for you never did answer several questions....not unusual for a Mormon when cornered. All I will say to you is this, may you be well and I will pray for you and your salvation, my God's true salvation, not earned but given by His love and grace.

[BigJulie]

Yes God (Jesus) is God of gods.. He created all things. Even those we call devils.. All His creation is subject to Him.. That include the devils that were seen as gods to ancient people as well as the imaginations of their own evil hearts that turned to build idols.. Yes YHWH is the God of gods..


I guess, with your definition of "gods"---there are "gods" in heaven:


1Cr 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

I agree that there are false gods that the people worshipped. But how do you see this verse of gods "in heaven"???

[BigJulie]

We can finally agree on something for I don't care to talk to you any further. Run, hide, ignore the posts I've made, for you never did answer several questions....not unusual for a Mormon when cornered. All I will say to you is this, may you be well and I will pray for you and your salvation, my God's true salvation, not earned but given by His love and grace.

Going back over the thread, I realized that I missed your posts many times because you often post as a "reply" rather than a "reply with quote"---and I usually look for those who are replying specifically to me. I did not skip your posts on purpose as you suppose. But, with that, I agree...we are better off to agree to disagree and move on with our discussions with others.

[Apologette]

Going back over the thread, I realized that I missed your posts many times because you often post as a "reply" rather than a "reply with quote"---and I usually look for those who are replying specifically to me. I did not skip your posts on purpose as you suppose. But, we that, I agree...we are better off to agree to disagree and move on with our discussions with others.

Well, here is the quote feature being used. Tell us, do you think it was godly for Joseph Smith to have himself crowned "king over Israel." And don't try to say that never happened, as your own Mormon-written book, "Rough Stone Rolling" tells us about the Council of 50 and what it did! Joe's scribe stated:

"The organization of the kingdom of God on the 11th March last is one important event. This organization was called the council of fifty or kingdom of God and was ti tled by revelation as follows, 'Verily thus saith the Lord, this is the name by which you shall be called, the kingdom of god and his law, with the keys and power thereof and judgments in the hands of his servants Ahman Christ.' In this council was the plan arranged for supporting president Joseph Smith as a candidate for the presidency of the U.S. Prest. Joseph was the standing chairman of the council and myself the clerk. In this council was also devised the plan of establishing an immigration to Texas and plans laid for the exaltation of a standard and ensign of truths for the nations of the earth. In this council was the plan devised to restore the Ancients to the knowledge of the truth and the restoration of union and peace amongst ourselves. In this council was prest. Joseph chosen as our prophet Priest, & King by Hosannas. In this council was the principles of eternal truths rolled forth to the hearers without reserve and the hearts of the servants of God made to rejoice exceedingly." Jan. 1/45, William Clayton

[BigJulie]

Well, here is the quote feature being used. Tell us, do you think it was godly for Joseph Smith to have himself crowned "king over Israel." And don't try to say that never happened, as your own Mormon-written book, "Rough Stone Rolling" tells us about the Council of 50 and what it did!

Apologette---you already know, from previous discussions, that I do not worry about that non-doctrinal, non-revealed stuff. God calls on men to be his prophets and as such, there will always be those things that part of history such as this. Why was Jonah upset he didn't get to see Ninevah burn? Why was Noah naked on the ark? These things do not matter to me.

As I said, this is like trying to determine if a light bulb works by studying the history of Edison. You throw out the light because you see a flaw with how Edison treated Tesla, etc. But, I have revelation in the form of scriptures---whether it be the Bible or the Book of Mormon. I can read them both and then pray about them---this is what the scriptures teach us to do. I can then receive an answer from God, because--yes, he does answer prayers.

So, after I read the scriptures and pray and get an answer, then I act on that answer and I can then see the fruit of this.

I have witnessed over and over again of the truthfulness of the revelations given to Joseph Smith. I have had a witness that he was a prophet of God. I also know that by living by the truths taught, I can see that my life is better and I am happy.

That said, I know you like to dig through our history and find any tidbit that you think can be sensationalized. You want me to stop believing in the light bulb because you think you have shown a flaw with Edison. But I have experienced the light. Sorry.

[nrajeffreturns]

Well, here is the quote feature being used. Tell us, do you think it was godly for Joseph Smith to have himself crowned "king over Israel."

What you're accusing never happened, if the p***age you cited is supposed to be your support for your claim.


And don't try to say that never happened
Too late! I just said it never happened, based on your "corroboration."


as your own Mormon-written book, "Rough Stone Rolling" tells us about the Council of 50 and what it did! Joe's scribe stated:

"The organization of the kingdom of God on the 11th March last is one important event. This organization was called the council of fifty or kingdom of God and was ti tled by revelation as follows, 'Verily thus saith the Lord, this is the name by which you shall be called, the kingdom of god and his law, with the keys and power thereof and judgments in the hands of his servants Ahman Christ.' In this council was the plan arranged for supporting president Joseph Smith as a candidate for the presidency of the U.S. Prest. Joseph was the standing chairman of the council and myself the clerk. In this council was also devised the plan of establishing an immigration to Texas and plans laid for the exaltation of a standard and ensign of truths for the nations of the earth. In this council was the plan devised to restore the Ancients to the knowledge of the truth and the restoration of union and peace amongst ourselves. In this council was prest. Joseph chosen as our prophet Priest, & King by Hosannas. In this council was the principles of eternal truths rolled forth to the hearers without reserve and the hearts of the servants of God made to rejoice exceedingly." Jan. 1/45, William Clayton

I read that twice, looking for "king of Israel" to magically appear, but it never did.
Should I shake the magic 8-ball again?

[Apologette]

You know neverending---just as you have stated that I have convinced you that you never want to look at Mormonism again...you have convinced me that I don't really want to carry on any further discussions with you. I do not put all of Christianity in the same boat, as I have met many I liked. But you I don't really care to talk to any further. Sorry.

I'm sure the ones you "liked" didn't tell you the truth about your cult's beliefs and history. Wake up!