Thinking of Joining the Mormons? Here's Why Mormons Leave the LDS!

[Apologette]

Are you being approached by Mormon missionaries? You might want to take a look at the poll which asked Mormons why they left the LDS? It's informative, and might be a reason for giving a whole lot more thought before being rushed into baptism by those charming Mormon missionaries:

Reasons Mormons Leave the LDS
This is an interesting poll, and I thought it provided good insight into why people are fleeing Mormonism:


A poll survey of former Mormons by Mister Poll asked responders to indicate up to seven reasons as to why they left the Mormon Church. Sorted by percentage, here are the most common results:

General disbelief of Joseph Smith as a chosen prophet (6%)
General disbelief of the Book of Mormon (5%)
Emphasis on blind faith / Obedience to church leaders (5%)
Found more peace outside the religion (4%)
General mindset of the fanatics of the LDS religion (4%)
LDS/religious logical fallacies/manipulations (3%)
Cult-like temple ceremonies (3%)
Book of Abraham (3%)
Character of Joseph Smith (3%)
Desire to uphold personal ethics (3%)
LDS stand vs. intellectuals (2%)
Brigham Young's teachings (i.e. blood atonement, race, etc) (2%)
Polygamy (2%)
LDS vs. feminist views (2%)
Book of Mormon archaeology (2%)
LDS stand on gay issues (2%)
Fatigue/ depression (2%)
Racial issues (2%)
Unanswered prayers about LDS "truth" (2%)
General dissatisfaction with apologetic (church scholars) answers (2%)."
(posted on Religious Tolerance.org)


It's interesting that the highest percentage of former Mormons left after learning about Joseph Smith's character. You watch any apologetic forum, and if Joseph Smith is attacked in any way (and it isn't attack but rather disclosure of the facts), the Mormons will jump all over that post! They'll badmouth the poster, demean him or her, etc. That's how they generally work. But, I don't think all their ranting and raving has done much good because people want the truth, not excuses! Smith was a sexual predator, there's no way to get around that. He "married" 14 and 15 year old girls, and the wives of other Mormon men. He was a typical cult leader who used his position for power, money and sex. Look at Koresh and Jones - they did the same! Consider the facts carefully folks!

[nrajeffreturns]

Are you being approached by Mormon missionaries?
Yes. In fact, I run into them almost every Sunday! Is that crazy, or what?


You might want to take a look at the poll which asked Mormons why they left the LDS?
I'd rather look at one which asks converts to the LDS church why they left Evan-ism.

[James Banta]

Yes. In fact, I run into them almost every Sunday! Is that crazy, or what?


I'd rather look at one which asks converts to the LDS church why they left Evan-ism.

I would like to see both.. Can both of you send me the polls in question? I wonder which of you will respond first, or for that matter at all... IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

Yes. In fact, I run into them almost every Sunday! Is that crazy, or what?


I'd rather look at one which asks converts to the LDS church why they left Evan-ism.

Yeah, I bet you keep running into the female missionaries most offten. lol.

I have found those we leave the Christian faith for Joseph Smith jr. Imagainary mind is most offten because their cup was empty.

[nrajeffreturns]

I would like to see both.. Can both of you send me the polls in question? I wonder which of you will respond first, or for that matter at all... IHS jim

I don't plan on providing a poll for you, James, but the book "From Clergy to Convert" has the stories of people, in their own words, of what they found lacking in their former church that they pastored, that they found not lacking in the LDS church. You can get the book used for cheap on Amazon I bet.

[nrajeffreturns]

Yeah, I bet you keep running into the female missionaries most offten. lol.
In towns where I have lived, we mostly had elders, and no sister missionaries.


I have found those we leave the Christian faith for Joseph Smith jr. Imagainary mind is most offten because their cup was empty.
I have found that for most who describe the church in terms like that, it's because their minds were empty. :)

[Snow Patrol]

Yes. In fact, I run into them almost every Sunday! Is that crazy, or what?


I'd rather look at one which asks converts to the LDS church why they left Evan-ism.

http://tmapsey.hubpages.com/hub/Top-25-Reasons-Why-People-Leave-Christianity

1.God just never shows up. They can see no proof of God's existence, not evidence of any intervention, especially in times of natural disaster and major economic adversity, such as hunger and AIDS epidemics in Africa.
2.Their prayers are not answered. Once again, they see no evidence of any intervention from God, whether they are praying for themselves or others.
3.They see no difference in at***ude and behavior between Christians and Non-Christians. Non-Christians are equally capable of living a moral life as Christians.
4.They have had several bad experiences in churches. (i.e. corruption, abuse, coercion, greed, gossip)
(I thought this was exclusive to LDS?)

5.The Bible contradicts itself, as well as with morality and reality. The Bible makes several claims that to a rational human being, just don't make any sense.
6.They do not understand why a God that loves everyone would send anyone to hell. For example, people of other religions (we're talking millions of people here), according to the Bible, would end up in Hell because they have not accepted Christ. If God truly loves everyone, why would he doom all of those people to torture in hell for eternity?
7.The Bible contradicts science and nature. According to the Bible, the world is only 6,000 years old, while science has proven that the world is, in fact, much older. This is only one instance in which science trumps the Bible.
8.They realize that all religions claim to be the only true religion, and only one can be right. This causes them to doubt that out of all of the religions in the world, Christianity would be the only way.
9.They see no evidence of anything supernatural, including God. Throughout history, supernatural beings have been used as a way to explain things that humanity did not understand.
10.They realized that Christianity is a faith that borrowed several of its stories and teachings from older traditions, such as Paganism.
11.They realize that, contrary to Biblical teaching, that people are inherently good. They cannot grasp the concept of original sin.
12.They see more harm than good being done in the name of Jesus. (i.e. The Crusades)
13.Christianity is too oppressive. Practically any natural human behavior can be labeled as a sin in at least one denomination.
14.Christianity suppresses knowledge and creativity. Because science and nature contradict the Bible, Christians steer people away from discovering the scientific truth.
15.Christianity suppresses human sexuality. (i.e. premarital sex, contraception, ****sexuality)

[James Banta]

I don't plan on providing a poll for you, James, but the book "From Clergy to Convert" has the stories of people, in their own words, of what they found lacking in their former church that they pastored, that they found not lacking in the LDS church. You can get the book used for cheap on Amazon I bet.

Since, not surprisingly, neither of you were willing to show me your evidence I went looking.. I look in LDS sources and found this from Elder Marlin Jensen the former LDS church official historian. He said "members are defecting from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints "in droves" and that the pace is increasing." Who is right here jeff? A statement made by a GA in 2012 or statements from a book published in June of 1983. A 30 year old statement by a professor of Entrepreneurship at BYU or the LDS official church historian? Seems to me that because of this conflict of opinion that the highest authority is that which should hold the edge in believability.. Not withstanding your claims I will hold that mormonism is losing members in droves just as Elder Jensen admitted.. This is why the LDS church had to create an office to handle church resignations.. IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

In towns where I have lived, we mostly had elders, and no sister missionaries.


I have found that for most who describe the church in terms like that, it's because their minds were empty. :)

I am surprised you even think I got a mind. The empty space between my ears is a good place to store candy corn.

[Apologette]

Since, not surprisingly, neither of you were willing to show me your evidence I went looking.. I look in LDS sources and found this from Elder Marlin Jensen the former LDS church official historian. He said "members are defecting from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints "in droves" and that the pace is increasing." Who is right here jeff? A statement made by a GA in 2012 or statements from a book published in June of 1983. A 30 year old statement by a professor of Entrepreneurship at BYU or the LDS official church historian? Seems to me that because of this conflict of opinion that the highest authority is that which should hold the edge in believability.. Not withstanding your claims I will hold that mormonism is losing members in droves just as Elder Jensen admitted.. This is why the LDS church had to create an office to handle church resignations.. IHS jim
Great points!

[James Banta]

[Snow Patrol;149827]http://tmapsey.hubpages.com/hub/Top-25-Reasons-Why-People-Leave-Christianity

Lets take these one ant a time and put them into some reality..

1.God just never shows up. They can see no proof of God's existence, not evidence of any intervention, especially in times of natural disaster and major economic adversity, such as hunger and AIDS epidemics in Africa.

This is a common complaint of the atheist.. But doesn't even mormonism hold that this world has been contaminated by sin? Of course.. Then it is the works of men that made this world a place where these evils exist. Would we expect God to take away our free agency and correct our every mistake, or is it part of this mortality learning that bad choices can have very bad consequences? Is God not there because He would have us learn those consequences as compared to the joy we can know in obedience?


2.Their prayers are not answered. Once again, they see no evidence of any intervention from God, whether they are praying for themselves or others.

Are prayers not answered because God doesn't send and angel or appear to them working a miracles? It reminds me of the story of a man up on his roof makes some repairs when he started to slide.. He called out "God save me". Just then his pants got caught on a nail and he says "Never mind".. The works of God are all around us daily. If someone is so hardened as to not see them that doesn't mean that He isn't there working wonders even if they seem small..


3.They see no difference in at***ude and behavior between Christians and Non-Christians. Non-Christians are equally capable of living a moral life as Christians.

Excuse me but doesn't the Bible teach that we are all created in the image of God? Even in out natural state we are all capable of knowing and doing good.. What we aren't capable of is having faith in Jesus as our Might God, our everlasting Father, our prince of peace, our Lord, and Savior without a new birth. A birth of God in spirit instead of only having the first birth of flesh.


4.They have had several bad experiences in churches. (i.e. corruption, abuse, coercion, greed, gossip) (I thought this was exclusive to LDS?)


Seems like the Bible is right again that our hearts are deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. In ourselves, that is our flesh, we are enemies of God. For all have sinned. When that sin emerges in our flesh we all are abusive, greedy and all the other bad traits you have listed.. The way we act doesn't change God in any way He is still Holy, and Just..


5.The Bible contradicts itself, as well as with morality and reality. The Bible makes several claims that to a rational human being, just don't make any sense.

Again a claim made by atheists. There is no contradiction in the Gospel, no contradiction in the Law, and none in the prophets.. A mistaken transposition of a kings name is not a error in the or a contradiction in God's word.. It doesn't effect the truth of the word.. Such a error was there in the days of JESUS and he had nothing to say about it.. I don't bring up that same error that exists in the BofM.. It just doesn't mean anything..


6.They do not understand why a God that loves everyone would send anyone to hell. For example, people of other religions (we're talking millions of people here), according to the Bible, would end up in Hell because they have not accepted Christ. If God truly loves everyone, why would he doom all of those people to torture in hell for eternity?

God has provided a way for all to receive his salvation.. He gave Jesus to us that who ever would believe Him would not die but have everlasting life.. How much more can you expect than to give Jesus as a ransom for our sins? If men belittle that gift to the point that they call it a lie and just go on with their lives like they had never sinned the why blame God after all He did to save them? God is more than all Loving. He is also all Just. The two must endure together.. That is why Jesus came in the first place.. To become sin so we can become the righteousness of God in Him.. God tells us that no one has an excuse because He is revealed in all He has made.. If a person responds to that creation and confesses that God is God, well that would be their salvation.. There is no reason to believe that anyone will be able to claim that "I DON'T KNOW"


7.The Bible contradicts science and nature. According to the Bible, the world is only 6,000 years old, while science has proven that the world is, in fact, much older. This is only one instance in which science trumps the Bible.

The Bible calls a day a period of time where God worked.. In Chapter 2 pf Genesis we are told that God created the heavens and the earth in one day "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens" Gen 2:4. Therefore a day doesn't have to be a 24 hour period.. We have no idea how long Adam was in the Garden or what was going out outside it. After all Satan had been cast out of heaven and on to the earth.. So is the earth only 6,000 years old or is that how long God has been dealing with man?


8.They realize that all religions claim to be the only true religion, and only one can be right. This causes them to doubt that out of all of the religions in the world, Christianity would be the only way.

That would depend on who God is wouldn't.. Is God a being that dealt with man through the works of a war lord in the Arab world. Or a man that taught that state of oblivion is the man's ultimate goal? Maybe that a never ending cycle of rebirth as a a cow, or a fly is our fate? I have shown you that the Bible teaches historic and scientific fact. While these other religions, the religions of men have taught things like the world in built on the back of a giant turtle the Bible says that God created the CIRCLE of the earth and hung it on NOTHING.. The teaching of the earth being flat was a common belief of the Greeks who before the NT was compiled referred to the earth having four corners.. Sadly that statement became part of the culture of the world that was under Greek influence and found it way into the Bible, the meaning then being the remote places of the world..


9.They see no evidence of anything supernatural, including God. Throughout history, supernatural beings have been used as a way to explain things that humanity did not understand.

There is still eyewitness testimony of the parting of the Red Sea, as well as the miracles of Jesus. Sure these things can be denied but they can't be disproved.


10.They realized that Christianity is a faith that borrowed several of its stories and teachings from older traditions, such as Paganism.

Yes I have heard many.. Some about the birth of Jesus, some about baptism.. But the difference being that those stories all see the "Hero" ending up dying to leave only legend behind.


11.They realize that, contrary to Biblical teaching, that people are inherently good. They cannot grasp the concept of original sin.

They can say that but I can point to the acts of evil conquers through the ages that subjugated their "victims". I can point to men that in the name of God murdered hundreds of people foolish enough to follow them. I can point to the decline of out morals in this country allowing million of babies to be murdered all for the convenience of a woman and her family.. Pollution in the name of making money, The harsh treatment of people that were a bit different, enslaving them even killing them. That doesn't reflect well on the "inherently good" you tell me is found in people..


12.They see more harm than good being done in the name of Jesus. (i.e. The Crusades)

RIGHT! Not all men that call themselves Christian are really children of God through faith in Christ.. We can only see their works to make that differentiation. The Crusades are not listed in the works the Apostle James explains are the evidence of saving faith..


13.Christianity is too oppressive. Practically any natural human behavior can be labeled as a sin in at least one denomination.

While it is true that "All have sinned" it is also truth that to the Christian all things are legal. They are not all expedient (1 Corinthians 10:23)


14.Christianity suppresses knowledge and creativity. Because science and nature contradict the Bible, Christians steer people away from discovering the scientific truth.

I would need examples of that. Examples that are not from the distant past.. Christians don't put our trust in what men in the past have taught but only what God has taught us in His word.. Are we not told in the prophets that in the last day learning will be increased? And the believer stands against the word of God? Is that what mormonism believes about the Christian church?


15.Christianity suppresses human sexuality. (i.e. premarital sex, contraception, ****sexuality)

If you call these SINS God ordained humans sexuality YES we will teach against these sins. We will tell all who are interested in serving God that these sins are against his word and against His commandments.. That have been so from the first time God gave His law to Moses. Most every civilization of the world historic or not has seen these sin as being destructive to the civilization and humanity in general. There have been laws man has made to control these nasty godless indulgences..

When did mormonism start seeing many of these anti bible, anti God rationalization men have used as part of their beliefs? If they aren't they don't belong of this channel.. IHS jim

[Sir]

4.They have had several bad experiences in churches. (i.e. corruption, abuse, coercion, greed, gossip) (I thought this was exclusive to LDS?)


Seems like the Bible is right again that our hearts are deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. In ourselves, that is our flesh, we are enemies of God. For all have sinned. When that sin emerges in our flesh we all are abusive, greedy and all the other bad traits you have listed.. The way we act doesn't change God in any way He is still Holy, and Just..

But that is the point. Christians claim to leave the "church" based on this.

And your wife has even claimed to leave the LDS because of this as well.

So what you're saying is your wife's reasoning for leaving, when basing it on the above, is fallacious and excuse-making.

[RealFakeHair]

Got this off the ex-mormon sight. The RM found this book (By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus" by Charles M. Larson.) And after reading the book he exited the church.

[nrajeffreturns]

Got this off the ex-mormon sight. The RM found this book (By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus" by Charles M. Larson.) And after reading the book he exited the church.

So? I exit the church every Sunday--it's kind of necessary if I want to get home!

[nrajeffreturns]

Since, not surprisingly, neither of you were willing to show me your evidence I went looking.
Hey, I informed you of accounts that explained the reasons why some people leave other churches and join the LDS church. I can't help it if you planned to fail to take those accounts into...account.


I look in LDS sources and found this from Elder Marlin Jensen the former LDS church official historian. He said "members are defecting from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints "in droves" and that the pace is increasing." Who is right here jeff?
I am, because my claim was simply that I would rather see polls that asked converts to LDS the reasons why they left their former churches.

Do you now understand what I said, and why your "Who is right?" question is invalid?

[nrajeffreturns]

Great points!
Lousy points, actually, as I just explained.

[Apologette]

Yeah, I bet you keep running into the female missionaries most offten. lol.

I have found those we leave the Christian faith for Joseph Smith jr. Imagainary mind is most offten because their cup was empty.

I bet you're right! You know how Mormon men have to scope out the field since they are going to have a whole bunch of wives in their highest heaven!

[Apologette]

Got this off the ex-mormon sight. The RM found this book (By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus" by Charles M. Larson.) And after reading the book he exited the church.

And well he should have. I have that book myself. The book of Abraham is great evidence proving that Smith couldn't translate a single noun from Egyptian!

[Sir]

I bet you're right! You know how Mormon men have to scope out the field since they are going to have a whole bunch of wives in their highest heaven!

You are gullible that you probably believe that, especially given your penchant for conspiracy theories.

But, oddly enough, James Banta wasn't a Mormon anymore when he scoped out a woman to cheat on his wife with.

Which of the two scenerios above is worse?

[nrajeffreturns]

Which of the two scenerios above is worse?

Any scenario in which a faithful LDS person is involved, is the worse situation.

---Handbook of Anti-LDSism, Chapter 1.

[neverending]

And well he should have. I have that book myself. The book of Abraham is great evidence proving that Smith couldn't translate a single noun from Egyptian!

Let's not forget that there has never been any evidence of "Reformed Egyptian" anywhere. The Book of Abraham has already been proven false by one of the LDS' own members who is an expert in Egyptology. And when one compares the original BoM with todays copy, there are over 3,000 changes. The language in many areas had to be changed because it was full of improper grammar. My thought has always been, if God was helping J. Smith with the translation of the gold plates, why so many areas of poor grammar? God who know ALL things certainly would know the English language. Now one can see where the statement, "talking through your hat" came from.

[James Banta]

But that is the point. Christians claim to leave the "church" based on this.

And your wife has even claimed to leave the LDS because of this as well.

So what you're saying is your wife's reasoning for leaving, when basing it on the above, is fallacious and excuse-making.

At that time she was ready to become inactive but still believed the lies that the LDS church are based.. I had convinced her that this action was of people not of the church.. At that TIME I WAS ST UPID. I didn't know that the Church is the people. the called out ones, the body of Christ. I had convinced her that the actions of these people were their own and not what the church taught..

After this last demonstration of LDS acceptance as their Bishop posed as a homeless man and he was so completely rejected our claims against the LDS church in it's lack of caring have been again confirmed.. Scream to the top of your lungs how loving the mormons are and I will point to these examples of their lack of care.. Remember your Bible? "When you have done it to the least of these, my brothern, you have done it unto me.." Mormon seem to have forgotten that..

Still it wasn't until we saw the doctrinal reasons from the Bible why mormonism was wrong that we left it.. The teaching of the church that many Gods exist, that even for this world there are three.. The teaching that God had to become God, that He had to earn that place and was a mere mortal man before He came to be God.. The idea that God's grace is gain though obedience to laws and ordinances.. After seeing that these things are false did we not only become inactive but left the church and united with other Believes in Biblical truth.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

You exit a building. The Church is the regenerate believers in Jesus. His Body.. Do you exit the Body of Christ every week? Come on Jeff you knew what was being said here.. IHS jim

[Sir]

At that time she was ready to become inactive but still believed the lies that the LDS church are based.. I had convinced her that this action was of people not of the church.. At that TIME I WAS ST UPID. I didn't know that the Church is the people. the called out ones, the body of Christ. I had convinced her that the actions of these people were their own and not what the church taught..

So you were st upid to believe the actions of the people were not reflective of the church. Since you believe the actions of people ARE the actions of the church, how do you reconcile your adultery with the church, since it happened after you left Mormonism and was a "Christian"?


After this last demonstration of LDS acceptance as their Bishop posed as a homeless man and he was so completely rejected our claims against the LDS church in it's lack of caring have been again confirmed.. Scream to the top of your lungs how loving the mormons are and I will point to these examples of their lack of care.. Remember your Bible? "When you have done it to the least of these, my brothern, you have done it unto me.." Mormon seem to have forgotten that..

You realize the same thing happened in a "Christian" church, right? You seem to always want to point fingers at the LDS church, without thinking through the fact that your criticisms actually attack your own faith far worse, since you believe they are the indwelt of the Holy Spirit.

[neverending]

You are gullible that you probably believe that, especially given your penchant for conspiracy theories.

But, oddly enough, James Banta wasn't a Mormon anymore when he scoped out a woman to cheat on his wife with.

Which of the two scenerios above is worse?

OH, and there has never been any Mormon who has been unfaithful to their spouse? Give me a break! There are none righteous, no NOT ONE! What of all the disgusting Scout Leaders who have molested young boys? And the Bishops who have protected those pedophiles? Come down off your high horse since it's not good to throw stones when one lives in a gl*** house!! You are overly obsessed with my family aren't you along with people's ages too. Hmmmm, have you thought about getting some professional help? :mad:
And let's not forget that it is YOUR church that claims to be the "Only True Church" but so many certainly don't live it's teachings. Don't go about claiming you have the truth but fail to live it. Why do so many LDS women have to take anti-anxiety meds or anti-depressants? Because the pressure put upon them by their husbands, Bishops and even your prophet is more then they can bear. It' hard enough to be a mother, and wife and then for many to have to work outside the home and be expected to be perfect. I feel very sorry for those trodden down women. Jesus told us to, "come unto me ye who are burdened and heavy laden, and I will give you rest." (Matt. 11:28) Having Christ in your heart and life, no one should feel pressure, no one should worry for He will walk with us, will carry our burdens for he promised he would never leave us, nor forsake us.

[James Banta]

OH, and there has never been any Mormon who has been unfaithful to their spouse? Give me a break! There are none righteous, no NOT ONE! What of all the disgusting Scout Leaders who have molested young boys? And the Bishops who have protected those pedophiles? Come down off your high horse since it's not good to throw stones when one lives in a gl*** house!! You are overly obsessed with my family aren't you along with people's ages too. Hmmmm, have you thought about getting some professional help? :mad:
And let's not forget that it is YOUR church that claims to be the "Only True Church" but so many certainly don't live it's teachings. Don't go about claiming you have the truth but fail to live it. Why do so many LDS women have to take anti-anxiety meds or anti-depressants? Because the pressure put upon them by their husbands, Bishops and even your prophet is more then they can bear. It' hard enough to be a mother, and wife and then for many to have to work outside the home and be expected to be perfect. I feel very sorry for those trodden down women. Jesus told us to, "come unto me ye who are burdened and heavy laden, and I will give you rest." (Matt. 11:28) Having Christ in your heart and life, no one should feel pressure, no one should worry for He will walk with us, will carry our burdens for he promised he would never leave us, nor forsake us.


Why is it that so many LDS don't believe in repentance? Why is it when sin comes into our life that they demand that we hold onto it forever? The Bible tell us that God removes our sin as far as the west is from the east (Psalm 103:12).. How is it that any man can stick it back on me or anyone else? Once it has been taken to Jesus, He replaces it with His righteousness.. Show sir as I have he still wishes to serve the accuser of the brothern and hold up the sin sign over those Jesus died to cleanse.. That is evil and a denial of the Lord Jesus and His work for our salvation.. IHS jim

[Sir]

OH, and there has never been any Mormon who has been unfaithful to their spouse? Give me a break! There are none righteous, no NOT ONE! What of all the disgusting Scout Leaders who have molested young boys? And the Bishops who have protected those pedophiles? Come down off your high horse since it's not good to throw stones when one lives in a gl*** house!! You are overly obsessed with my family aren't you along with people's ages too. Hmmmm, have you thought about getting some professional help? :mad:

You made my point. Here you guys attack the LDS church and its people, in this case, attacking LDS men for allegedly stalking young girls in order to marry them in the after life. So I use James as an example of the "believers" who didn't allegedly stalked young girls to marry in another life but sought out a woman to be with in THIS life, AGAINST the marriage of his wife. And this, AFTER he left the LDS church and was a "saved, indwelt, believing 'Christian'".

You call it a gl*** house and I say you are right.

As for being obsessed with age, you have made more comments about me being obsessed with age than I have made about age. Think about that for a minute before calling for seeking out psychological help.


And let's not forget that it is YOUR church that claims to be the "Only True Church" but so many certainly don't live it's teachings. Don't go about claiming you have the truth but fail to live it. Why do so many LDS women have to take anti-anxiety meds or anti-depressants? Because the pressure put upon them by their husbands, Bishops and even your prophet is more then they can bear. It' hard enough to be a mother, and wife and then for many to have to work outside the home and be expected to be perfect. I feel very sorry for those trodden down women. Jesus told us to, "come unto me ye who are burdened and heavy laden, and I will give you rest." (Matt. 11:28) Having Christ in your heart and life, no one should feel pressure, no one should worry for He will walk with us, will carry our burdens for he promised he would never leave us, nor forsake us.

Right on cue...tangential tirade of random attacks that have nothing to do with the conversation.

[James Banta]

Hey, I informed you of accounts that explained the reasons why some people leave other churches and join the LDS church. I can't help it if you planned to fail to take those accounts into...account.


I am, because my claim was simply that I would rather see polls that asked converts to LDS the reasons why they left their former churches.

Do you now understand what I said, and why your "Who is right?" question is invalid?

You didn't show why they left their former churches. All you said was "Go buy a book" In that book will it give an overview of why people left Christian churches? NO!!! It will give reasons like, I FELT this way while I was a (Whatever) and now I FEEL this way now that I am LDS.. What I have seen of that book didn't show any scriptural reasons for their conversion, only their feelings.. And their hearts like all men are deceitful ABOVE EVEN SATAN (All things).. He lies to men, so will their own hearts only it will lie even more than Satan does.. I have shown you a recent statement from a GA and you throw a BYU professor of Entrepreneurship at me in re****al. Your point loses in authority and in substance.. IHS jim

[neverending]

You made my point. Here you guys attack the LDS church and its people, in this case, attacking LDS men for allegedly stalking young girls in order to marry them in the after life. So I use James as an example of the "believers" who didn't allegedly stalked young girls to marry in another life but sought out a woman to be with in THIS life, AGAINST the marriage of his wife. And this, AFTER he left the LDS church and was a "saved, indwelt, believing 'Christian'".

You call it a gl*** house and I say you are right.

As for being obsessed with age, you have made more comments about me being obsessed with age than I have made about age. Think about that for a minute before calling for seeking out psychological help.



Right on cue...tangential tirade of random attacks that have nothing to do with the conversation.

Only following your lead since reading many of your tirades and comments that never address a question. Why are you so blind as to not understand the way to repentance? If God told us when we ask for His forgiveness, he will remember it NO MORE, what don't you understand about that? Oh, you want to only accept the things written in the Bible that suit you. Guess with your ****ogy, none of your sins have been forgiven either. That is very sad indeed. As for me, I accept what God has taught and take Him at His word, not yours.

[neverending]

When did I say this, "Here you guys attack the LDS church and its people, in this case, attacking LDS men for allegedly stalking young girls in order to marry them in the after life." I never said any such thing! I said, Scout Leaders who molest young boys and their Bishops protecting the pedophiles. Sorry, you've got me confused with another poster. Don't accuse me of things I didn't say.

[Sir]

When did I say this, "Here you guys attack the LDS church and its people, in this case, attacking LDS men for allegedly stalking young girls in order to marry them in the after life." I never said any such thing! I said, Scout Leaders who molest young boys and their Bishops protecting the pedophiles. Sorry, you've got me confused with another poster. Don't accuse me of things I didn't say.

Right. It was Apologette. Hence "you guys", meaning you Anti-LDS. Which is who I was responding to when you joined the conversation. So since you felt the need to join in, you are part of "you guys" :)

[Sir]

Only following your lead since reading many of your tirades and comments that never address a question. Why are you so blind as to not understand the way to repentance? If God told us when we ask for His forgiveness, he will remember it NO MORE, what don't you understand about that? Oh, you want to only accept the things written in the Bible that suit you. Guess with your ****ogy, none of your sins have been forgiven either. That is very sad indeed. As for me, I accept what God has taught and take Him at His word, not yours.

Problem is, you cannot ask for repentance, receive it, and then claim everyone else you don't agree theologically are unrepentant sinners. And then attack them for their alleged "sins". Seems God might not look on YOUR forgiveness if you are going to judge others...

[James Banta]

[Sir;149913]So you were st upid to believe the actions of the people were not reflective of the church. Since you believe the actions of people ARE the actions of the church, how do you reconcile your adultery with the church, since it happened after you left Mormonism and was a "Christian"?

I do so the same why a Great leader of the Church from the First century justified his sins.. I know you hate seeing scripture so I won't quote it word for word. I will just say that it wasn't I that sinned but sin that lives in me, that is in my flesh (Romans 7:17).. Yes I have Biblical authority to answer your question.. You had none to ask it in the first place unless you agree that you are in agreement with the accuser of the brothern..


You realize the same thing happened in a "Christian" church, right? You seem to always want to point fingers at the LDS church, without thinking through the fact that your criticisms actually attack your own faith far worse, since you believe they are the indwelt of the Holy Spirit.

No, it didn't.. It didn't happen in any Christian church. In snoops I found that "this particular version of the "incognito clergyman" tale, it appears to be a fabricated story. No one has yet identified a real pastor by the name of Jeremiah Steepek (or a similar variant of that name) or found any church, large or small, headed by a pastor with that name. Nor has anyone been able to verify the event described, even though it was supposedly witnessed by several thousand congregants. (Read more at www.snopes.com/glurge/homelesspastor.asp#mmhzGllwvmGsubUu.99).. If you are going to make charges against me at least do 3 or 4 mins of research to make sure you are basing your comments in truth.. Your comments here are out and out unbiblical, and just plain old mean spirited.. They are all based in lies way outside the teaching of the Bible.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Right. It was Apologette. Hence "you guys", meaning you Anti-LDS. Which is who I was responding to when you joined the conversation. So since you felt the need to join in, you are part of "you guys" :)

By lumping us all together I can do the same with the LDS, RIGHT? You are then a liar since Smith Lied about having only one wife.. You are an unconfessed adulterer in that Smith was know to have spent a night in a bedroom with two different women:

Benjamin Johnson wrote: "On the 15th of May the Prophet again Came and at my hosue [house] occupied the Same Room & Bed with my Sister that the month previous he had occupied with the Daughter of the Later Bishop Partridge as his wife. (In Sacred Loneliness, pp. 12-13). "You Guys" are all one in your church right? IHS jim

[James Banta]

You are gullible that you probably believe that, especially given your penchant for conspiracy theories.

But, oddly enough, James Banta wasn't a Mormon anymore when he scoped out a woman to cheat on his wife with.

Which of the two scenerios above is worse?

I don't know.. Which would be worse in the eyes of God looking at lust at a woman or committing a sin that later was confessed and repented of? Humm seems that God has offered to forgive us our sins as we confess them to Him and turn from them.. I would say the unrepentant sin of lust for many wives is a worse sin than even the sins I have ever committed and repented of.. IHS jim

[Snow Patrol]

After this last demonstration of LDS acceptance as their Bishop posed as a homeless man and he was so completely rejected our claims against the LDS church in it's lack of caring have been again confirmed.. Scream to the top of your lungs how loving the mormons are and I will point to these examples of their lack of care.. Remember your Bible? "When you have done it to the least of these, my brothern, you have done it unto me.." Mormon seem to have forgotten that..



Maybe you could post a link to the story you are referring to. Because I sure didn't read "completely rejected."

[James Banta]

Maybe you could post a link to the story you are referring to. Because I sure didn't read "completely rejected."

You can read it yourself at www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57199090-78/bishop-lamoreaux-homeless-musselman.html.csp. In case you don't know what SLCTRB is it is the Salt Lake Tribune.. If you don't like the "Gentile paper you can find the same story on www.deseretnews.com/article/865591437/Mormon-bishop-disguises-himself-as-homeless-man-to-teach-congregation-about-comp***ion.html?pg=all..

You can not call me on the "completely rejected" comment I never said that myself.. I said that he was "SO completely rejected our claims against the LDS church in it's lack of caring have been again confirmed." That is that "so completely rejected" to confirm my accusation against the LDS church for it's uncaring ways. Not to prove that every person rejected him. IHS jim

[Snow Patrol]

You can read it yourself at www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57199090-78/bishop-lamoreaux-homeless-musselman.html.csp. In case you don't know what SLCTRB is it is the Salt Lake Tribune.. If you don't like the "Gentile paper you can find the same story on www.deseretnews.com/article/865591437/Mormon-bishop-disguises-himself-as-homeless-man-to-teach-congregation-about-comp***ion.html?pg=all..

You can not call me on the "completely rejected" comment I never said that myself.. I said that he was "SO completely rejected our claims against the LDS church in it's lack of caring have been again confirmed." That is that "so completely rejected" to confirm my accusation against the LDS church for it's uncaring ways. Not to prove that every person rejected him. IHS jim

Huh? You said "so completely rejected" and not "completely rejected"? Please explain, because I even read the word "so" as being an emphasis on completely rejected.

The following is from the SLT article

"I had people try to kick me off the property, and I had people who were very warm and invited me in and offered to give me food and money and everything in between," Musselman said.

He said some children ran home and gave him graham crackers, apples and water, and he collected $20 in cash.

Doesn't quite sound like complete anything to me. One of his counselors, who was unaware it was him, offered to have him come in and help him. Neither complete rejection or complete acceptance. I don't think this does anything to support your claim or counter your claim.

[James Banta]

Huh? You said "so completely rejected" and not "completely rejected"? Please explain, because I even read the word "so" as being an emphasis on completely rejected.

The following is from the SLT article


Doesn't quite sound like complete anything to me. One of his counselors, who was unaware it was him, offered to have him come in and help him. Neither complete rejection or complete acceptance. I don't think this does anything to support your claim or counter your claim.

It was written as I meant it.. Because you decided to take my words out of context as to change their meaning doesn't make me responsible for the changes you make.. It was so complete that it justified my judgments as mormonism being uncaring.. IHS jim

[Snow Patrol]

It was written as I meant it.. Because you decided to take my words out of context as to change their meaning doesn't make me responsible for the changes you make.. It was so complete that it justified my judgments as mormonism being uncaring.. IHS jim

So you read ""I had people try to kick me off the property, and I had people who were very warm and invited me in and offered to give me food and money and everything in between," Musselman said.

He said some children ran home and gave him graham crackers, apples and water, and he collected $20 in cash." as complete rejection? I'm sorry, but here is a case where your writing style is getting in the way of understanding. You say you didn't say "completely rejected" but you said "SO completely rejected." What is the difference?

[James Banta]

So you read ""I had people try to kick me off the property, and I had people who were very warm and invited me in and offered to give me food and money and everything in between," Musselman said.

He said some children ran home and gave him graham crackers, apples and water, and he collected $20 in cash." as complete rejection? I'm sorry, but here is a case where your writing style is getting in the way of understanding. You say you didn't say "completely rejected" but you said "SO completely rejected." What is the difference?

If it was the vast majority that wanted you off the property it would show a lack of comp***ion.. That is what happened.. Some people actually offered him money to leave.. The article NEVER said anyone opened their home, offered him a meal or a place to stay.. So completely rejected means that a vast majority of the members there wanted him to leave, offered to pay him to leave. Were made uncomfortable by his presence. He was so completely rejected by his own ward members he felt they needed a lesson in comp***ion and after he made himself known to them gave them that lesson..

I pray that the members of his Ward always remember the lessons they learned that day.. IHS jim

[Snow Patrol]

If it was the vast majority that wanted you off the property it would show a lack of comp***ion.. That is what happened.. Some people actually offered him money to leave.. The article NEVER said anyone opened their home, offered him a meal or a place to stay.. So completely rejected means that a vast majority of the members there wanted him to leave, offered to pay him to leave. Were made uncomfortable by his presence. He was so completely rejected by his own ward members he felt they needed a lesson in comp***ion and after he made himself known to them gave them that lesson..

I pray that the members of his Ward always remember the lessons they learned that day.. IHS jim


Maybe then one of us has a misunderstanding of a definition of a word or phrase. Complete rejection to you means that vast majority of something? So if I was to say that you completely reject the teachings of Mormonism, then I could say that there are some things that you do absolutely agree with. Complete rejection to me means that I reject 100% of something.

[Sir]

No, it didn't.. It didn't happen in any Christian church. In snoops I found that "this particular version of the "incognito clergyman" tale, it appears to be a fabricated story. No one has yet identified a real pastor by the name of Jeremiah Steepek (or a similar variant of that name) or found any church, large or small, headed by a pastor with that name. Nor has anyone been able to verify the event described, even though it was supposedly witnessed by several thousand congregants. (Read more at www.snopes.com/glurge/homelesspastor.asp#mmhzGllwvmGsubUu.99)..


http://www.theleafchronicle.com/viewart/DA/20130628/NEWS01/306280035/Clarksville-pastor-lives-homeless-man-before-installation-Sango-UMC


If you are going to make charges against me at least do 3 or 4 mins of research to make sure you are basing your comments in truth..

I did. Apparently you did not. Hypocrite.


Your comments here are out and out unbiblical, and just plain old mean spirited.. They are all based in lies way outside the teaching of the Bible.. IHS jim

I know you wont admit to feeling st upid right now, but you sure look that way after trying to chastise me when you were the one in the wrong.

[Snow Patrol]

If it was the vast majority that wanted you off the property it would show a lack of comp***ion.. That is what happened.. Some people actually offered him money to leave.. The article NEVER said anyone opened their home, offered him a meal or a place to stay.. So completely rejected means that a vast majority of the members there wanted him to leave, offered to pay him to leave. Were made uncomfortable by his presence. He was so completely rejected by his own ward members he felt they needed a lesson in comp***ion and after he made himself known to them gave them that lesson..

I pray that the members of his Ward always remember the lessons they learned that day.. IHS jim


James, how many nights of lodging have you personally provided for homeless strangers?

[nrajeffreturns]

Why is it that so many LDS don't believe in repentance?
We all believe in it, as far as I know. Can you name 10 who don't?
What some of us don't like, is antis who are hypocrites. If one of them attacks us for some supposed failures of some of our members once long ago, then maybe it's the anti who doesn't believe in forgiveness.

He just can't let this alleged sin of the LDS go. He brings it up, even decades later, and uses it as a lame attempt to attack present-day LDS in a forum--LDS who had nothing to do with the supposed bad treatment of once upon a time.

When that happens, then it's human nature to ask him why he's railing about other people's inability to forgive, when he himself has apparent trouble in that department.


Why is it when sin comes into our life that they demand that we hold onto it forever?
Jim, don't hold on forever to those alleged sins of those allegedly mean LDS from long ago. It's not good for your spirit to make that bitterness and anger ferment for decades.

Forgive those LDS. Forgive Joseph Smith. And then God will forgive you.


Luke 11:4 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

4 ‘And forgive us our sins,
For we ourselves also forgive everyone who is indebted to us.
And lead us not into temptation.’”

[neverending]

What James said went right over your head! He was asking why LDS can't forgive? Why does an LDS continue to throw a sin into his face when he has acknowledged it, asked for forgiveness from God and myself and family. We know that God has forgiven him, I have forgiven him and this is our life, and only concerns us and God. For someone to continue to throw it in James' face is wrong and definitely shows that they are unforgiving and mean spirited and only wants to cause bad feelings for our family. Is it right to interfere in someone's family? NO!

[neverending]

James, how many nights of lodging have you personally provided for homeless strangers?

How does two weeks sound? And we also took them shopping to buy underwear, gloves, hats and hygiene items. We've also offered our home to a man who has done work on our home and lost his business. On a hot summer day, our door bell rang. I answered and found a young man about 15 or 16 standing on our porch. He asked if he could have something to eat. At first I was surprised but I invited him in and told him that we didn't have much as I had yet to go for groceries that week. To make a long story short, James made him a sandwich and asked if he'd like a gl*** of milk, something to drink but he said, "no, the sandwich was enough." He hadn't quite finished his sandwich when he thanked us and left. He hadn't been gone 3 minutes when I wondered where he was going. I then went to the door to look for him and he was no where to be found. I know there wasn't a car on our street so it's like he vanished into thin air. We don't go around bragging about the things we have done and continue to do, for the less fortunate......that is not what we are about. We would rather do things privately. Since you asked, I needed to answer.

[neverending]

Problem is, you cannot ask for repentance, receive it, and then claim everyone else you don't agree theologically are unrepentant sinners. And then attack them for their alleged "sins". Seems God might not look on YOUR forgiveness if you are going to judge others...

And you continue to judge my husband every time you mention his infidelity! What business is it of yours? This is an incident that happened over 14 years ago. It is in the past but you are obsessed with it.....maybe you want all the juicy details since we know Mormons are sexually repressed individuals. If that were not so, we wouldn't keep hearing of another Boy Scout leader being arrested for molesting young boys or school teachers both male and female having sex with their students.

[James Banta]

http://www.theleafchronicle.com/viewart/DA/20130628/NEWS01/306280035/Clarksville-pastor-lives-homeless-man-before-installation-Sango-UMC

Yes I read that.. It has been debunked by Snoops.. Can you show a minister by the name of Jeremiah Steepek (or a similar variant of that name) found in any church, large or small. Snoops couldn't.. Snoops couldn't find one person in that area or any other are in the nation that witnessed these events? What happened to the members and visitors of a church with 10,000 people in attendance? Sorry but that story is a myth, there is no evidence that it ever happened..

[QUOTE]I did. Apparently you did not. Hypocrite.

Really what is so hard about checking with Snoops? Is you want to know if a story is an urban legend or a real event you can verify it there.. This one is proven to be just that an Urban Legend. The story of the Pastor of the Sango United Methodist Church is another story. He lived as a homeless man and cleaned up as he gave the Church a sermon.. He never tried to pawn himself off to them as anything other than their new Pastor.. Did you read the whole story?

This isn't what the Bishop in TAYLORSVILLE Utah did at all.. He disguises himself as homeless man to teach lesson to his new Ward.. The pastor of the Methodist church in Sango never tried to trick anyone.. The Bishop of the TAYLORSVILLE ward only used trickery.. He didn't feel the rejection that the homeless feel as they live in our cities. He only saw the rejection of his own people.. People actually asking Him to leave.. Most ignoring him completely. Only a few wanting to reach out and help him. This is not the story of the Good Samaritan being lived out in the lives of the LDS at all this is the story of the Levite and the Priest that p***ed the injured man by..


I know you wont admit to feeling st upid right now, but you sure look that way after trying to chastise me when you were the one in the wrong.

Since you changed the story from one exactly like what Bishop Musselman did in the person of a Jeremiah Steepek who was said to be a pastor of a church of some 10,000 members to one of a small Methodist church. I had the right to find out more about it before being condemned by you or any one else.. Now that I have I see what Pastor Lyle did it is clear that the lesson learned there were his lessons given to him by God. They were not the lessons taught to his church. He then shared with the church what God had taught him.. No deception, no hiding, no lies. If you want to look at the face of a Hypocrite start with the mirror. What I have said in this thread is 100% factual..

Your personal ******ination attempts have again failed.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Problem is, you cannot ask for repentance, receive it, and then claim everyone else you don't agree theologically are unrepentant sinners. And then attack them for their alleged "sins". Seems God might not look on YOUR forgiveness if you are going to judge others...

If I claimed to not sin or have some special justification that no one else has access to, I would agree with you. But when a know it all Bible hater comes along and condemns all scripture he disagrees with. I can say that such a man is on the wide road without endangering my place as God's child.. Was John the baptist a sinner in the eyes of God (Romans 3:23). Did he not accuse king Herod of sin? I guess he didn't have the right to try to bring Him to repentance.. That is how silly your charges against me are.. Yes I sinned.. I have also turned from it and sinned in many other ways instead.. I claim only the righteousness of Jesus that is offered to all who will believe Him.. I claim none of my own.. Is that what you claim or do you claim more and better righteousness than me because I committed adultery over 10 years ago.. All you prove in your continued barking about it is that you deny that Jesus can forgive sin.. I am not concerned about being judge by God as I judge the LDS.. If they have any unconfessed sin in their life. Sin that they have not taking to Jesus. They will have to pay for that sin themselves and the wages of sin, even a small sin, is death.. Spiritual death in the Lake of Fire.. So even that small sin makes them unclean and NO UNCLEAN THING CAN ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD.. I hope you have had a good memory and have confessed and repented of ALL your sin, Sin like bearing a false witness of calling someone HYPOCRITE WHO is not deserving of such a ti tle.. IHS jim

[Sir]

[QUOTE=Sir;149953]http://www.theleafchronicle.com/viewart/DA/20130628/NEWS01/306280035/Clarksville-pastor-lives-homeless-man-before-installation-Sango-UMC

Yes I read that.. It has been debunked by Snoops.. Can you show a minister by the name of Jeremiah Steepek (or a similar variant of that name) found in any church, large or small. Snoops couldn't.. Snoops couldn't find one person in that area or any other are in the nation that witnessed these events? What happened to the members and visitors of a church with 10,000 people in attendance? Sorry but that story is a myth, there is no evidence that it ever happened..



Really what is so hard about checking with Snoops? Is you want to know if a story is an urban legend or a real event you can verify it there.. This one is proven to be just that an Urban Legend. The story of the Pastor of the Sango United Methodist Church is another story. He lived as a homeless man and cleaned up as he gave the Church a sermon.. He never tried to pawn himself off to them as anything other than their new Pastor.. Did you read the whole story?

This isn't what the Bishop in TAYLORSVILLE Utah did at all.. He disguises himself as homeless man to teach lesson to his new Ward.. The pastor of the Methodist church in Sango never tried to trick anyone.. The Bishop of the TAYLORSVILLE ward only used trickery.. He didn't feel the rejection that the homeless feel as they live in our cities. He only saw the rejection of his own people.. People actually asking Him to leave.. Most ignoring him completely. Only a few wanting to reach out and help him. This is not the story of the Good Samaritan being lived out in the lives of the LDS at all this is the story of the Levite and the Priest that p***ed the injured man by..



Since you changed the story from one exactly like what Bishop Musselman did in the person of a Jeremiah Steepek who was said to be a pastor of a church of some 10,000 members to one of a small Methodist church. I had the right to find out more about it before being condemned by you or any one else.. Now that I have I see what Pastor Lyle did it is clear that the lesson learned there were his lessons given to him by God. They were not the lessons taught to his church. He then shared with the church what God had taught him.. No deception, no hiding, no lies. If you want to look at the face of a Hypocrite start with the mirror. What I have said in this thread is 100% factual..

Your personal ******ination attempts have again failed.. IHS jim

You still claim the link I provided is about the Jeremiah guy.

Nope.

My link was to the other story that you then discussed.

So I am still right. You claimed my link was debunked by Snopes, but my link wasn't debunked at all as you then discussed it.

That's why I don't take you serious at all. All bluster. And lots of whining about being told you are wrong, even when I have to prove once again that you were wrong.

[Sir]

And you continue to judge my husband every time you mention his infidelity! What business is it of yours? This is an incident that happened over 14 years ago.

It's my business when someone starts to attack me as not having God, believing a false Jesus, and telling me that complimenting someone on their attire even if I think it's ugly is the same sin as committing adultery. I use it for perspective, not to judge.


It is in the past but you are obsessed with it.....maybe you want all the juicy details since we know Mormons are sexually repressed individuals. If that were not so, we wouldn't keep hearing of another Boy Scout leader being arrested for molesting young boys or school teachers both male and female having sex with their students.

This is exactly my point!!! 1) you always resort to making a point by adding the most far-fetched and ridiculous attacks. 2) You claim LDS people are sexually repressed, and yet I have a perfectly normal and happy sex life, but yet your husband, as a non-Mormon "Christian", must have not been as fortunate since it led him to stray.

See? That's why I bring it up. It provides so many examples of how screwed up your arguments and attacks are toward the LDS people

[Ma'am]

So? I exit the church every Sunday--it's kind of necessary if I want to get home!

Exiting a building is a far cry from exiting the church. The church is the body of Christ, made up of all true believers, everywhere. If you exit the church, you have left the body of Christ Jesus and are no longer His child.

[James Banta]

[QUOTE=James Banta;149969]

You still claim the link I provided is about the Jeremiah guy.

Nope.

My link was to the other story that you then discussed.

So I am still right. You claimed my link was debunked by Snopes, but my link wasn't debunked at all as you then discussed it.

That's why I don't take you serious at all. All bluster. And lots of whining about being told you are wrong, even when I have to prove once again that you were wrong.

You didn't provide any information as to what story you were speaking. You hide what you were talking about in the context of a conversation of the myth of an a christian pastor that did the same thing your LDS bishop actually did. I ***umed that you were on the same subject as all the other LDS here who clamped on to that Urban Myth to try to prove that this idea first came from a Christian minister.. They have pointed to the story of one Jeremiah Steepek in reference to a pastor presenting himself as a homeless man. I have shown that this story is false. That it never happened.. After I showed that you turned and found another story online that was similar to that story but different enough exclude it form comparison to your Taylorville bishop's story.

Remember the LDS bishop did what he did to teach his Ward comp***ion. The Pastor received a commandment from God to live as a homeless man. Not just appear to be a homeless man.. He was being taught the lesson of comp***ion not his church.. All the church got was a report on what God had taught him.. Completely different is it's purpose, it's scope, and it's target.. This was commanded to be done by direct revelation given to this pastor, something the LDS says the Christian church denies. The pastor lived as a homeless man for four days on the streets not just a few hours in a nice warm safe Ward house as the LDS bishop did.. While his Ward received a lesson in comp***ion He only learned how to be a fraud to accomplish his desires to teach them..

The pastor didn't try to fool his church but as soon as he could he revealed that he was their pastor and not a homeless man.. He changed as soon as his family brought him some fresh clothing.. Yes He showed his church what he had been doing and why he did it but he didn't dress homeless to fool them. He dressed in his own cloths, he just had no way of cleaning up for the time he was commanded to live among the homeless, so he was dirty. It is interesting that instead of being ignored by the members of His church he was offered help by most everyone that saw him there waiting to enter the church. No one asked him to leave. Money was offered as well as a chance to enter the church get warm and cleaned up.. It is true that the parishioners could have recognized him since he wasn't trying to hide his ident ity. But because money was offered not all of then saw their pastor in his lets say "more natural" appearance. IHS jim

There is m***ive differences between the reason the Pastor did this and HUGE difference in how the church responded to him.. You are so off base in your complaint all you have proved is that mormonism is anti James 2 and that the Christians from that Methodist church were showing their faith by their works.. Twice your mormon teaching crashes in this one story.. First that Christian churches deny modern revelation, and then that only the LDS will live the life of a Christian, being obedient to the teaching of Jesus and His apostle as to caring for the poor. Thank you for showing that Christian are walking the walk of their faith while the LDS for a large part are showing that they have no faith do to their lack of works. IHS jim

[Sir]

You didn't provide any information as to what story you were speaking.

Didn't need to. I did specify it was the Methodist pastor, though. And most of the readers here read CARM too where I was already discussing is there.



You hide what you were talking about in the context of a conversation of the myth of an a christian pastor that did the same thing your LDS bishop actually did.

Nothing was hidden. You are just blind and obviously not very bright.


I ***umed that you were on the same subject as all the other LDS here who clamped on to that Urban Myth to try to prove that this idea first came from a Christian minister..

As your wife said here recently, "don't sit there and ***ume anything for that makes an *** out of U and Me"


They have pointed to the story of one Jeremiah Steepek in reference to a pastor presenting himself as a homeless man.

Show us. Don't just tell us. Give me a post or a link where LDS have done this?


I have shown that this story is false. That it never happened..

Maybe THAT story. But nobody was talking about THAT story.


After I showed that you turned and found another story online that was similar to that story but different enough exclude it form comparison to your Taylorville bishop's story.

Buwahaha......you are so prideful that you cannot accept you were wrong. I was talking about the Methodist pastor since 11/30. Here is my post at CARM that proves it: http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.php?170092-LDS-bishop-dresses-as-homeless-man&p=5023027&viewfull=1#post5023027

So I linked to the same story for you yesterday.

But you go ahead and believe that I only found that story AFTER you claimed to have corrected me. Pride is a very hard thing to overcome.

:)

[James Banta]

[nrajeffreturns;149957]We all believe in it, as far as I know. Can you name 10 who don't?

I have discussed this with only three of you.. I don't go around telling everyone I meet about my sin.. But those that know about it, the three of you here on WM, want to brand me with a scarlet letter for all time.. You Sir, and Julie.. As far as I know you are the only three mormons that know about it.. And you don't believe that repentance of that terrible sin is possible, at least not for me..


What some of us don't like, is antis who are hypocrites. If one of them attacks us for some supposed failures of some of our members once long ago, then maybe it's the anti who doesn't believe in forgiveness.

We believe in forgiveness to anyone that will confess their sins and take them to Jesus. I have don e this with mine and yet I am still held up as a sinner in the minds of many LDS here.. When a sin is continued you will not forgive it but here you are demanding that I (we) do forgive a sin that continues.. Is it not held and sustained in your standard works that all other churches are wrong? That our creeds are an abomination in God's sight? That our teachers are all corrupt? That we only draw near to God with their lips, but their hearts are far from Him? That we teach as our doctrines the commandments of men? That we have a form of godliness, but deny God's power?

Tell you what you drop your attacks against us and we will only point out scriptural differences between mormonism and the Church.. Deal?


Luke 11:4 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

4 ‘And forgive us our sins,
For we ourselves also forgive everyone who is indebted to us.
And lead us not into temptation.’”

I won't hold even those attacks against you personally.. I will hold them against the organization and the person that told the world that Jesus, the God who the Church worships as God. said these terrible things, as guilty of hate, until the day they are removed from the LDS scripture and the hearts of the LDS people.. That seems to be more than fair.. IHS

[neverending]

It's my business when someone starts to attack me as not having God, believing a false Jesus, and telling me that complimenting someone on their attire even if I think it's ugly is the same sin as committing adultery. I use it for perspective, not to judge.



This is exactly my point!!! 1) you always resort to making a point by adding the most far-fetched and ridiculous attacks. 2) You claim LDS people are sexually repressed, and yet I have a perfectly normal and happy sex life, but yet your husband, as a non-Mormon "Christian", must have not been as fortunate since it led him to stray.

See? That's why I bring it up. It provides so many examples of how screwed up your arguments and attacks are toward the LDS people

NO! It's not your business but only is showing every member here what a cruel man you are. You take what we say as an attack, and I am sorry that you find it that way. What we've been trying to do for such a long time is show you that the religion you've been raised in has been preaching lies. You believe in a God that was not always God, that he was once a man just as you are a man, is that not true? There is nothing Biblical to defend that idea. You believe a Jesus Christ who was not always God (whom the Bible has always called God) you believe he was a created being, is that not true? I say LDS are sexually repressed only by the many news reports we hear weekly. What else could it be? Yes, the LDS Church teaches good values and they work hard at having strong family ties but somewhere along the line, a ball was dropped. LDS are not perfect people even though some might think they are but you too commit sins. Jesus said that to look at a woman with lust in your heart is no different then actually having sex with that woman. He was referring to our thoughts which are evil and that is sin. So even our thoughts get us into trouble with God. You realize God knows your thoughts, He sees the things you do. There is nothing you can keep from God. Now, James will continue to be here trying to show all the LDS that what has been taught is not Biblical and he is concerned for your eternal salvation. James and I don't wish for anyone to have to stand before God and be judged. God loves you......who else would have given up their life for you or me? He stands at the door and knocks, won't you open that door and let him in? "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." (Rev. 3:20) Sir, when I kneel before God each night, you are in my prayers along with my brother (he's an atheist) and my in-laws who remain steeped in Mormonism along with several friends. It is so important to me that they will be with God when their lives come to a close.

[James Banta]

Maybe then one of us has a misunderstanding of a definition of a word or phrase. Complete rejection to you means that vast majority of something? So if I was to say that you completely reject the teachings of Mormonism, then I could say that there are some things that you do absolutely agree with. Complete rejection to me means that I reject 100% of something.


Jesus was so completely rejected by the Jews that Pilot bowed to public pressure and had Jesus crucified.. Did all of them call for the death of the Lord on the cross. No! but it was an opinion held by so many that His rejection almost unanimous.. It was so complete that it couldn't be ignored.. If you can't understand it that way try this.. The puzzle was so complete that it clearly showed the pristine scene of the mountains.. Neither statement calls that it was 100% complete..

I have completely rejected the anti biblical teaching of mormonism. That would mean that I have SO completely rejected the teaching held by the LDS church that I can't accept it as being the only true church.. That would mean that I believe with them that Jesus was born in Bethlehem lived a sinless life and suffered for the sins of the whole world.. What I can't accept is that Jesus is a creation of God the same as all the rest of us. That God a tangible man had sexually relations with Mary his mother to produce a physical body for his spirit to dwell in to accomplish Him mission..There is a huge difference between so complete and Complete.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Didn't need to. I did specify it was the Methodist pastor, though. And most of the readers here read CARM too where I was already discussing is there.


Buwahaha......you are so prideful that you cannot accept you were wrong. I was talking about the Methodist pastor since 11/30. Here is my post at CARM that proves it: http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.php?170092-LDS-bishop-dresses-as-homeless-man&p=5023027&viewfull=1#post5023027

So I linked to the same story for you yesterday.

But you go ahead and believe that I only found that story AFTER you claimed to have corrected me. Pride is a very hard thing to overcome.


To make this short.. I admitted I was mistaken about your reference. I had already admitted that. I explained it clearly when I did see how the reference that I was discussing was not the one you were speaking to.. You somehow see the story about Pastor Lyle as being the same thing your LDS Bishop did in his Ward.. It was totally different as I have explained which apparently you can't contend against..

I am NOT a member of CARM so your references there are meaningless to me.. You found the story on the net and thought it was a great way to support the LDS Bishop's deception in posing as a homeless man.. The facts are he never lived the homeless life style and had little idea what it is really like.. Pastor Lyle on the other hand was commanded by God to live as one of them so He could gain the level of comp***ion God wanted him to gain.. Totally different, so different that there is no comparison.. IHS jim

[Snow Patrol]

I have discussed this with only three of you.. I don't go around telling everyone I meet about my sin.. But those that know about it, the three of you here on WM, want to brand me with a scarlet letter for all time.. You Sir, and Julie.. As far as I know you are the only three mormons that know about it.. And you don't believe that repentance of that terrible sin is possible, at least not for me..

Uh, I've known about it for years.

[Snow Patrol]

Jesus was so completely rejected by the Jews that Pilot bowed to public pressure and had Jesus crucified.. Did all of them call for the death of the Lord on the cross. No! but it was an opinion held by so many that His rejection almost unanimous.. It was so complete that it couldn't be ignored.. If you can't understand it that way try this.. The puzzle was so complete that it clearly showed the pristine scene of the mountains.. Neither statement calls that it was 100% complete..

I have completely rejected the anti biblical teaching of mormonism. That would mean that I have SO completely rejected the teaching held by the LDS church that I can't accept it as being the only true church.. That would mean that I believe with them that Jesus was born in Bethlehem lived a sinless life and suffered for the sins of the whole world.. What I can't accept is that Jesus is a creation of God the same as all the rest of us. That God a tangible man had sexually relations with Mary his mother to produce a physical body for his spirit to dwell in to accomplish Him mission..There is a huge difference between so complete and Complete.. IHS jim

Well then you will have to forgive me for not accepting either "completely rejected" or "so completely rejected" in this scenario. No where in the article did I read a percentage of people rejected him and asked him to leave. I read that his counselor offered to have him come inside. I read where people offered to feed him. I read where kids ran home and got him food. I read where people gave him close to $20. What I can't comprehend is how you came away with complete rejection of this "homeless" man.

We have a mentally ill women, don't know if she is homeless or not, who comes to our building every once in a while. She is welcomed in in whatever manner of dress she happens to be in at the time. She always has her mug of some kind of drink as well as her teddy bear. All of the kids know her and talk to her. Someone from the congregation always sits with her. I've never seen one person escort her out, talk negatively to her, or been anything but polite.

Now, based on this experience shall I act like you and your wife and say that all LDS wards are this welcoming? No, because I am a realist and know that there are definitely places that are not this kind. I just find it interesting that you can find one or two instances of something and so easily project it onto the group as a whole. I'm fearful that your hatred of all things LDS warps your view of things. An example is your wife claiming that not one LDS person has ever been nice to her until I asked her to show where I had been mean to her. I think that your penchant for over-generalizing things is something you could definitely work on.

[RealFakeHair]

Well then you will have to forgive me for not accepting either "completely rejected" or "so completely rejected" in this scenario. No where in the article did I read a percentage of people rejected him and asked him to leave. I read that his counselor offered to have him come inside. I read where people offered to feed him. I read where kids ran home and got him food. I read where people gave him close to $20. What I can't comprehend is how you came away with complete rejection of this "homeless" man.

We have a mentally ill women, don't know if she is homeless or not, who comes to our building every once in a while. She is welcomed in in whatever manner of dress she happens to be in at the time. She always has her mug of some kind of drink as well as her teddy bear. All of the kids know her and talk to her. Someone from the congregation always sits with her. I've never seen one person escort her out, talk negatively to her, or been anything but polite.

Now, based on this experience shall I act like you and your wife and say that all LDS wards are this welcoming? No, because I am a realist and know that there are definitely places that are not this kind. I just find it interesting that you can find one or two instances of something and so easily project it onto the group as a whole. I'm fearful that your hatred of all things LDS warps your view of things. An example is your wife claiming that not one LDS person has ever been nice to her until I asked her to show where I had been mean to her. I think that your penchant for over-generalizing things is something you could definitely work on.

Remember there are nice LDSinc. persons, and not so nice, but that is in every walk of life.
I myself believe more each day in the( Ayn Rand philosophy). To each to his own, and to those with out, are to be left out!

[nrajeffreturns]

But those that know about it, the three of you here on WM, want to brand me with a scarlet letter for all time.. You Sir, and Julie..
I think you are mistaken. Speaking for myself, I have no recollection of ever wanting to brand you with a scarlet letter for all time.


As far as I know you are the only three mormons that know about it.. And you don't believe that repentance of that terrible sin is possible, at least not for me..
That is not true. I DO believe that repentance is possible, for you as much as for any of us.


We believe in forgiveness to anyone that will confess their sins and take them to Jesus. I have don e this with mine and yet I am still held up as a sinner in the minds of many LDS here..
What you need to do is follow Jesus' commandment that goes "Treat others the way you would want them to treat you." If you want others to not hold you up as a sinner, then the ball is in your court. You need to stop holding LDS people as sinners, and that includes the church leaders in your old ward, as well as Joseph Smith. If you want to be treated with respect and without accusations of sin you have committed, then you need to treat us that way.


Tell you what you drop your attacks against us and we will only point out scriptural differences between mormonism and the Church.. Deal?
You need to forgive Joseph Smith for the things you feel he said about your church. Did your church even exist in his lifetime? You need to stop making threads attacking members of the LDS church. When you accuse us of sins, you have no right to expect that we will refrain from accusing you of being guilty of sins.

[nrajeffreturns]

What we've been trying to do for such a long time is show you that the religion you've been raised in has been preaching lies.
But you don't consider that to be an attack? Well, then, what WE have been doing is showing you that the religion YOU are in has been preaching lies. And that isn't an attack on your church, according to your reasoning.

[neverending]

Jeff,
I am not upset at all with your words. Jesus said, "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword" (Matt. 10:34). In other words, he came knowing that his gospel would cause problems for many but his gospel is the only thing we have to cling to. We were also told we would be hated and persecuted too. I count it all joy. God knows each one of our hearts. He knows who will and won't accept his plan of salvation and I am not referring to resurrection but eternal life living with God. When I began studying Mormonism and came to the conclusion that so many doctrines that I had questioned were not following the Bible, I became very upset. When I discovered the misleading doctrines and made up my mind to leave Mormonism, please don't think it was an easy thing for me to do, it wasn't; it was the hardest thing I ever did. The relationship with my parents and friends was forever changed.

[nrajeffreturns]

Jeff, I am not upset at all with your words.
That is good if true. I was just trying to show you that if the things you say about our church don't count as attacks, then the things Joseph Smith claimed Jesus told him about other churches can't count as an attack either, and therefore neither side is doing any attacking, I guess.

[BigJulie]

I have discussed this with only three of you.. I don't go around telling everyone I meet about my sin.. But those that know about it, the three of you here on WM, want to brand me with a scarlet letter for all time.. You Sir, and Julie.. As far as I know you are the only three mormons that know about it.. And you don't believe that repentance of that terrible sin is possible, at least not for me..

James,

As far as I can tell, one of the things that gets you in trouble is that you struggle to not hold a grudge against people (me, sir, etc.) or things (the church) because you imagine we believe something we don't.

When we discussed your adultery, this was my exact comment:



"Does this lessen my opinion of James--no. Do I feel he can repent? Yes. Do I believe he has fully repented? I believe that he believes he has---but I also know that it takes an awful lot of humility to sit before one who has authority from God to judge and to confess your sins and allow them to determine (with revelation) the next steps you must take to satisfy every level of repentence.

Do I believe in the atonement of Jesus Christ to wash away such a sin---absolutely! Do I believe James is going to hell. No.

You see, I have far less judgement of James than he has of me. Call me evil if you want, but I am just learning a little deeper what is happening with James. Truly, he has my comp***ion."

I even left in my spelling errors.

Truly, to come back in after so much time and find your griping about this, my only thought was--the gentleman doth protest too much.

And really James---how many times did we discuss this? Once, twice? I don't believe this has been much of a topic.

[Apologette]

NO! It's not your business but only is showing every member here what a cruel man you are. You take what we say as an attack, and I am sorry that you find it that way. What we've been trying to do for such a long time is show you that the religion you've been raised in has been preaching lies. You believe in a God that was not always God, that he was once a man just as you are a man, is that not true? There is nothing Biblical to defend that idea. You believe a Jesus Christ who was not always God (whom the Bible has always called God) you believe he was a created being, is that not true? I say LDS are sexually repressed only by the many news reports we hear weekly. What else could it be? Yes, the LDS Church teaches good values and they work hard at having strong family ties but somewhere along the line, a ball was dropped. LDS are not perfect people even though some might think they are but you too commit sins. Jesus said that to look at a woman with lust in your heart is no different then actually having sex with that woman. He was referring to our thoughts which are evil and that is sin. So even our thoughts get us into trouble with God. You realize God knows your thoughts, He sees the things you do. There is nothing you can keep from God. Now, James will continue to be here trying to show all the LDS that what has been taught is not Biblical and he is concerned for your eternal salvation. James and I don't wish for anyone to have to stand before God and be judged. God loves you......who else would have given up their life for you or me? He stands at the door and knocks, won't you open that door and let him in? "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." (Rev. 3:20) Sir, when I kneel before God each night, you are in my prayers along with my brother (he's an atheist) and my in-laws who remain steeped in Mormonism along with several friends. It is so important to me that they will be with God when their lives come to a close.


Amen! You are absolutely correct!

[neverending]

Julie,
No, you've not been here for awhile nor have I. What I can tell you is this...for the past week, Sir has done nothing but make cruel attacks on James (my husband) throwing what happened 14 years ago into his face. I've asked why he would want to cause our family bad feelings and is it right to interfere in someone's family? Is this not something that effects me? If I found it in my heart to forgive, then that is good enough and all that happened is in the past. None of us are perfect, we ALL SIN! ALL of us say or do things we know are wrong. Even if it is a small white lie, that is still a sin. There are no degrees of sinning, for God sees sin as only sin and since He is perfect he can not accept it. As believers, we have been told that if we repent of our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us. 1 John 1:9, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." God has forgiven James and since his sin effected only myself and has nothing to do with any of you, then this line of talk needs to end! It is cruel and hateful.

[Sir]

Julie,
No, you've not been here for awhile nor have I. What I can tell you is this...for the past week, Sir has done nothing but make cruel attacks on James (my husband) throwing what happened 14 years ago into his face. I've asked why he would want to cause our family bad feelings and is it right to interfere in someone's family? Is this not something that effects me? If I found it in my heart to forgive, then that is good enough and all that happened is in the past. None of us are perfect, we ALL SIN! ALL of us say or do things we know are wrong. Even if it is a small white lie, that is still a sin. There are no degrees of sinning, for God sees sin as only sin and since He is perfect he can not accept it. As believers, we have been told that if we repent of our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us. 1 John 1:9, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." God has forgiven James and since his sin effected only myself and has nothing to do with any of you, then this line of talk needs to end! It is cruel and hateful.



The problem is that you and James continues to harp on how the LDS are sinners, that we are all unforgiven, etc. As long as you continue to point out the sins of others, I will remind you of your sins. Seems fair.

Plus, when James preaches that telling your wife you like her dress when you really don't is the same gravity of sin as sleeping with another woman other than your wife, I have to point that out as being quite ludicrous. I mean, let's be real here. If you found out James complimented you on your hair but really hated it, and then he went out and committed adultery, would you be able to forgive him equally? Would one of those sins hurt more then the other? Would the consequences be the same?

[James Banta]

[Sir;150019]The problem is that you and James continues to harp on how the LDS are sinners, that we are all unforgiven, etc. As long as you continue to point out the sins of others, I will remind you of your sins. Seems fair.


At last a statement that has relevance to the subject of the channel.. Does not mormonism teach that there is a step by step procedure for repentance?

1. Recognize we have done wrong.
2. Covenant with the Lord that we will never repeat the sin we have committed and are repenting of. “By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins—behold, he will confess them and forsake them.” (D&C 58:43.)
3. Recommit ourselves to living a better life in all phases of the gospel.
4. Make rest itution for the wrongs we have committed by
a.Repenting in prayer to the Lord.
b.Confessing to our bishop, an ordained common judge in Israel and the presiding high priest in our ward.
c.Apologizing to those we have offended.

5. The depth of our repentance must be as deep as the sin we have committed. There is no easy way. It hurts, but it also cleanses.
6. Time is the next element of repentance and rest itution
a.Time to prove to ourselves, to our Lord, to our fellowmen that we have committed ourselves to a new way of life.
b.Time to study the scriptures and dedicate our lives to the commandments we learn we must live to be happy and have joy.

7. Complete forgiveness of ourselves and forgiveness without any feelings of retribution toward those who have offended us.
8. Finally, the greatest of all blessings: the forgiveness of the Lord. We no longer look back with depression and hurt, but forward to the future with hope and joy and love for God, self, and all mankind. (Robert D. Hales, First Quorum of the Seventy, The Lord Offers Everyone a Way Back from Sin, conference address, October 1976)

So tell me if any of these steps are ignored can a person be seen to be forgiven by the God of LDS church? No? It is clear than when Smith lied saying that he only had one wife he had no recognition that he had done anything wrong.. As he seduced married women he again didn't see his actions as wrong.. He failed to repent according to mormonism's own rules.. Because Smith was an unrepentant sinner he has opened himself up to criticism. Mine is much different even by the list of mormonism's requirements I can show that I have repented.. I did see what I had done was wrong. I committed to God to never repeat this sin, and recommitted myself to follow Jesus more closely. I tried hard to reestablish trust with my wife and ***ured her that my behavior had changed. That was the only way I could make res***ution. I cried out to God for His grace and discussed this sin with my Pastor. I again lived in the word of God allowing His words of correction fill my heart. I blamed no one else for my failing taking full responsibility for my sin.. I took the pain I suffered in a my illnesses, and my car accident as the judgments of God..

So I fulfill every step that your church teaches a man should go through even the time to prove that I was committed to his repentance.. And you compare me with Smith who didn't even get past the very first step? He never repented of his sins.. He deserves then to be harped on. It isn't me that didn't understand the depth and seriousness of my sin.. That all belongs to Smith who didn't see that the seduction of a married woman as a major sin.. So does it still seem fair to remind someone that has repented of his sin even when you praise the man that never bothered to see his sin as even being wrong? If it does God help anyone you know that ever slides into any sin.. You won't forgive even when a person does everything they can to repent.. But then again you allow those that are unrepentant to be held as a great man of God.. Go figure..


Plus, when James preaches that telling your wife you like her dress when you really don't is the same gravity of sin as sleeping with another woman other than your wife, I have to point that out as being quite ludicrous. I mean, let's be real here. If you found out James complimented you on your hair but really hated it, and then he went out and committed adultery, would you be able to forgive him equally? Would one of those sins hurt more then the other? Would the consequences be the same?

It isn't what another person can forgive you of that is the point here.. Yes as mortal men we see divisions in the seriousness of sin.. But the Bible, the rule for Christian life and practice of righteousness tells us that "If we keep the whole law and only offend in one point we are guilty of it all" (James 2:10).. You can say that such a doctrine is a lie, that it is "ludicrous" but it is a point God gave us through the Apostle James and is part of the same context that teaches us that Faith without works is dead.. But since you don't like that part of the teaching of God we receive in that p***age you call it ridiculous and dismiss it as foolish and those that believe all that God has preserved for us in His word as a fool.. You have no room to condemn or teach others that God's word he has given to us is anything but truth.. To teach otherwise is a sin.. But that is your problem to rectify with your God.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

The problem is that you and James continues to harp on how the LDS are sinners, that we are all unforgiven, etc. As long as you continue to point out the sins of others, I will remind you of your sins. Seems fair.

The problem is the difference is that those who follow after false gods will not be forgiven. You seem to miss that point.

[BigJulie]

The problem is the difference is that those who follow after false gods will not be forgiven. You seem to miss that point.

And so, as I said---your judgment toward us is much harsher than ours toward you.

[neverending]

The problem is that you and James continues to harp on how the LDS are sinners, that we are all unforgiven, etc. As long as you continue to point out the sins of others, I will remind you of your sins. Seems fair.

Plus, when James preaches that telling your wife you like her dress when you really don't is the same gravity of sin as sleeping with another woman other than your wife, I have to point that out as being quite ludicrous. I mean, let's be real here. If you found out James complimented you on your hair but really hated it, and then he went out and committed adultery, would you be able to forgive him equally? Would one of those sins hurt more then the other? Would the consequences be the same?

Sir,
Please don't lump me in with things James has said to you. I will say that yes, LDS are sinners, we are all sinners, and that is why Jesus Christ came to earth, to redeem us from our sins, his whole reason for hanging on the cross. I have never said you are not forgiven. If you have never repented of a sin then, yes, you would then be an unrepentant sinner. That I would agree to. When have I ever said I was perfect? I am right here confessing to this forum that I am a sinner! I am not ashamed to admit that. Why are you afraid to admit it? It is the first step to receiving Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. And again, there aren't degrees of sinning when you look at sin from God's eyes. He is perfect and can never accept any sin, no matter what it is. A white lie, is still a lie and makes that person a liar even if you did it to not hurt someone's feelings. There are ways to be tactful isn't there? I would never want James to not be honest with me. And I can honestly say that I have asked him many times if he liked what I was wearing or how I had done my hair an he tells me truthfully if he likes it or not. That is what I expect of him. If I look horrible, I don't want to go out in public. Would you want your dear wife to go out in public looking bad because you were afraid to be honest with her? Isn't that deceptive? It is in my book.

[Apologette]

Let's not forget that there has never been any evidence of "Reformed Egyptian" anywhere. The Book of Abraham has already been proven false by one of the LDS' own members who is an expert in Egyptology. And when one compares the original BoM with todays copy, there are over 3,000 changes. The language in many areas had to be changed because it was full of improper grammar. My thought has always been, if God was helping J. Smith with the translation of the gold plates, why so many areas of poor grammar? God who know ALL things certainly would know the English language. Now one can see where the statement, "talking through your hat" came from.


Nobody in this century would get away with claiming they were "translating" plates by the method of "rocks in a hat," and that the engravings were written in "Reformed Egyptian." Those that made such bogus claims might be categorized as mentally deranged.

[nrajeffreturns]

Nobody in this century would get away with claiming they were "translating" plates by the method of "rocks in a hat," and that the engravings were written in "Reformed Egyptian." Those that made such bogus claims might be categorized as mentally deranged.

"Nobody in this century would get away with claiming their mom is a virgin, or that their death would pay for the sins of billions of other people, and that a sign of a cross magically provides salvation, and that water could be changed into wine. Those that made such bogus claims might be categorized as mentally deranged or a con man."

[RealFakeHair]

"Nobody in this century would get away with claiming their mom is a virgin, or that their death would pay for the sins of billions of other people, and that a sign of a cross magically provides salvation, and that water could be changed into wine. Those that made such bogus claims might be categorized as mentally deranged or a con man."

There you go again comparing jo to Jesus.