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Apologette
12-03-2013, 10:42 AM
What about Righteousness - Who has it?

A. There is none righteous, no, not one! We are entirely corrupt (Rom 3:10-12; Psalm 14:1-3; 53:1-3).
B. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God – we are bankrupt in righteousness (Rom 3:23).
C. You cannot find one man born of a woman that is clean and righteous before God (*** 15:14-16).
D. Do not be deceived on this matter! Do not deny the truth! You are desperately wicked (Jer 17:9).
E. Paul thought he was righteous, but God’s law exposed his filthiness (Rom 7:7-13; Philippians 3:6).
F. Not by works of righteousness, which we have done, but God’s mercy must save us (Ti tus 3:5). (from: http://www.letgodbetrue.com/pdf/clothed-with-christs-righteousness.pdf)

Isa. 64:6: All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

In the above verse, "filthy rags" would be accurately translated as "soiled mentrural rags." So much for all the super duper LDS priesthood claims that Mormons keep all the commandments! They are idolaters to begin with, worshipping a god made in their own image, a human being who has somehow become a god through a transhuman process Mormons call "exaltation." This science fiction is idolatry plain and simple. They actually worship this transhuman god who lives in a physical body (although Jesus taught God is a Spirit) on a planet situated in outer space near a gigantic star called Kolob. There their transhuman god copulates with a harem of female goddesses (also transhumans). Folks, this is pagan idolatry - and a violation of the First and Second Commandments to begin with!

Mormons strut about so often claiming to have a superior religion, one directly revealed to Joseph Smith by God, and which replaces the "abomination" known as Christianity in Mormon circles! First, in terms of numbers, Mormonism is miniscule! There are more Anglicans in Africa then there are Mormons in the whole world. If numbers count, then the Mormons better consider Anglicanism. Mormons made extravagant claims a decade ago about how they were going to be the chief religion in America - remember that? Today the LDS cult is on the decline. They even had to reduce the age that young people can become "missionaries" in order to increase their army of proselytizers and thereby increase their opportunities of deceiving targeted folks into believing the Joseph Smith gospel. One reason the Mormons are having a problem is that it is a pyramid scheme so to speak. At the top of the pryamid are the "brethren," who shuffle the money t i thed to the cult around, buying this and that, building malls, and calling the shots in terms of the latest changes in doctrine.

In between the top of the pyramid and the bottom are the "priests," those who work freely for the Brethren, keeping everybody in line, funnelling down information and orders from the top to the bottom, and feeling really good about themselves as the true agents of the transhuman god. They are accompanied by their wives, who are often under so much pressure to perform and meet certain standards, that Mormon women have the sad reputation for the highest use of antidepressants. Incredibly, pro-Mormons claim that the drug usage is linked to the Mormon's education! How wacky is that?

On the lowest rung are the drones. They actually provide the money needed to support the pyramid structure. This includes t i t h e s and Fast Offerings. They work around the meeting houses, clean toilets, provide the young men who are to become part of the missionary army sent around to recruit more and more drones so that the whole thing doesn't collapse. They get rewarded with "callings," which means they are ***igned more and more duties which the LDS need to maintain the whole structure! If they deviate from the norm, ask too many questions, or start reading non-Mormon material about the history of their church, they are subjected to "courts of love," and if excommunicated, will be shunned by their family members who remain in the group. This is a strong deterrent to leaving the group and for keeping up appearances, even if you don't believe a word of the bologna pumped out of SLC!

However, the pyramid is subjected to scrutiny by the INTERNET - sites like this examine the pyramid and point out how it differs from the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The Pyramid is crumbling block by block as the drones type in questions on their keyboards and find out the truth. "Converts" are fleeing exponentially in the first year when they find out what they've gotten themselves involved with; and those who have fled are still counted as members by the deceitful manipulation of numbers based not on those who actually attend Mormonism's meetings, but who once did!

And so for the poor Mormons it is performance, performance, performance, obedience, obedience obedience, rightly following the priesthood and the "prophet." This is the standard of "righteousness" one finds in the LDS cult. This is the sad state of affairs that exists in Mormonism - and all this work, work, work, is nothing but filthy rags in the sight of the True and Living God, who is not a transhuman, did not grow up on another planet and did not earn godhood!

Joseph Smith said: “God Himself who sits enthroned in yonder heavens is a Man like unto one of yourselves—that is the great secret! . . . For I am going to tell you how God came to be God and what sort of a being He is. For we have imagined that God was God from the beginning of all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil so you may see. . . . The first principle of truth and of the Gospel is to know for a certainty the character of God, and that . . . He once was a man like one of us and that God Himself, the Father of us all, once dwelled on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did in the flesh and like us.( “King Follett Discourse”.) He also claimed: "You have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power." (Teachings, pp. 346-47.)

So, if this is true, why did God say:

10“You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord,
“and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me.
11I, even I, am the Lord,
and apart from me there is no savior. Is. 43.

and


Deuteronomy 4:35
You were shown these things so that you might know that the LORD is God; besides him there is no other.

Deuteronomy 32:39
"See now that I myself am he! There is no god besides me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of my hand.

and


Isaiah 46:9
I am God, and there is none else: I am God, and there is none like me.


You cannot be a follower of Jesus Christ on the one hand, and worship the false transhuman god of Joseph Smith, who became a "god" by degrees, on the other. If you believe in another God, you are an idolater, and if an idolater, you have broken every commandment and are without hope unless you repent!

James 2: 10 Whoever breaks one commandment is guilty of breaking them all. 11 For the same one who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not commit murder." Even if you do not commit adultery, you have become a lawbreaker if you commit murder.

But the Mormons claim they keep "all the commandments." Well, do any of them work on the Jewish Sabbath? Friday sundown to Sa****ay sundown? You can't transfer those Sabbath requirements to Sunday, the Lord's Day. The bible clearly ***erts that the Jewish Sabbath, the seventh day of the week, is not to be violated in any way by works - so if you work on the Jewish Sabbath, light a fire, gather wood, etc., you are a Law breaker. You are guilty of breaking all the commandments. You deserve death! So much for Mormon Law keeping!

For Christians the glorious news is that we have been delivered from the requirements of the Law; we stand righteous in the eyes of God not because of what we have done, but because of what Christ has done for us. Christians are covered by the Blood of Christ, and don't brag about their wonderful works. We have been born-again in Christ Jesus to do good works, God's grace enabling us.

Mormons are law breakers, having exchanged the True and Living God of the commandments for an idol! A transhuman from another planet. That is idolatry. Therefore they are guilty of breaking all the Law and without hope - UNLESS they repent and come to the Biblical Christ, Who is Truly God and Truly Man! Mormons have been deceived by Joseph Smith, and have abandoned the ONE WAY God has provided for salvation:

"For they being i g n o r a n t of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth..." -Romans 10:3,4

Snow Patrol
12-03-2013, 11:00 AM
For those of you who are following the encouragement of the non-LDS here, please realize that you presented here with out and out lies, misrepresentations, and exagerations. If I am able to find one example, will you question the motives and purposes of the critics of the LDS Church?

Apologette
12-03-2013, 11:16 AM
For those of you who are following the encouragement of the non-LDS here, please realize that you presented here with out and out lies, misrepresentations, and exagerations. If I am able to find one example, will you question the motives and purposes of the critics of the LDS Church?

Blah, blah, blah, blah, and so on. Not one word can you provide to refute the Bible. Maybe you can haul out Joe Smith as an example of a righteous Mormon who is now a god. Bring along his 30 plus wives as well.

Snow Patrol
12-03-2013, 11:19 AM
Blah, blah, blah, blah, and so on. Not one word can you provide to refute the Bible. Maybe you can haul out Joe Smith as an example of a righteous Mormon who is now a god. Bring along his 30 plus wives as well.

I'm not talking about the Bible. I'm talking about your error filled post. Are you able to provide evidence of your claims? Or will you admit that you lied or grossly exagerated?

Snow Patrol
12-03-2013, 11:24 AM
So much for all the super duper LDS priesthood claims that Mormons keep all the commandments!

Lie #1.

You will need to provide proof that LDS priesthood leadership claim that Mormons keep all the commandments.

Snow Patrol
12-03-2013, 11:26 AM
There their transhuman god copulates with a harem of female goddesses (also transhumans).

Exageration and lie #2

Please provide evidence that this is official church doctrine.

Snow Patrol
12-03-2013, 11:29 AM
Incredibly, pro-Mormons claim that the drug usage is linked to the Mormon's education!

I'd just like proof of this. Never heard this claim before. Side note, the whole paragraph that this came from is pretty ridiculous.

Snow Patrol
12-03-2013, 11:31 AM
and those who have fled are still counted as members by the deceitful manipulation of numbers based not on those who actually attend Mormonism's meetings, but who once did!

Misrepresentation.

Those who ask to have their names removed from church records are not counted as members.

Apologette
12-03-2013, 11:36 AM
I'm not talking about the Bible. I'm talking about your error filled post. Are you able to provide evidence of your claims? Or will you admit that you lied or grossly exagerated?

Well, I'm not talking about your opinion. Discuss the proof in the OP - which I gather you cannot do!

Sir
12-03-2013, 11:56 AM
I'm not talking about the Bible. I'm talking about your error filled post. Are you able to provide evidence of your claims? Or will you admit that you lied or grossly exagerated?

No, she wont.

That's why she came back to WM, to spam new thread after new thread (she only gets 2 at CARM and either nobody cares enough about them to post or the mods send them to the JUNK folder) with lies and misrepresentations.

In fact, here is just her latest thread. Only 1 reply. Her own....begging for some Mormon to play with her....

http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.php?170363-Refuting-the-Constant-Attacks-on-CARM-by-Mormons-Who-Diminish-God-s-Grace

Then when called on it she childishly writes "blah blah blah..."

I wonder if the new poster Ma'am will call her out on her "mature" post, or if she is just as hypocritical as most other Anti-LDS (I'm guessing the latter).

Apologette
12-03-2013, 02:55 PM
Lie #1.

You will need to provide proof that LDS priesthood leadership claim that Mormons keep all the commandments.

“On the same basis men cannot be saved in their sins (Alma 11:37); the Lord has ordained the laws by which salvation and all good things come, and until obedience prepares the way, the promised blessings are withheld (D&C 88:21-24; 130:20-21; 132:5.). Men can no more be saved without obedience than they can be healed without faith. All things operate by law; blessings result from obedience to law and are withheld when there is no obedience” (BYU Professor Daniel H. Ludlow, A Companion to Your Study of the New Testament, p.222).

“Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God” (The Book of Mormon, Moroni 10:32).

And you guys better be sinless:

“And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins” (The Book of Mormon, Alma 11:37). (All underlines in these quotes have been added for emphasis.)

Apologette
12-03-2013, 02:56 PM
Misrepresentation.

Those who ask to have their names removed from church records are not counted as members.

But those who no longer attend, and maybe haven't done so in fifty years are still counted - these are ghost members. They are counted until they are 100.

Apologette
12-03-2013, 02:56 PM
I'd just like proof of this. Never heard this claim before. Side note, the whole paragraph that this came from is pretty ridiculous.
Got that baby right off of a Mormon apologetic site - look it up your favorite site.

Snow Patrol
12-03-2013, 02:59 PM
Got that baby right off of a Mormon apologetic site - look it up your favorite site.


You really aren't making the claim that an apologetic site is anything with official information, are you? Do you also believe everything on the internet is true? Sheesh.

Snow Patrol
12-03-2013, 03:00 PM
But those who no longer attend, and maybe haven't done so in fifty years are still counted - these are ghost members. They are counted until they are 100.

Yes, they are. Because the can, and I've seen it happen many times, come back.

RealFakeHair
12-03-2013, 03:22 PM
For those of you who are following the encouragement of the non-LDS here, please realize that you presented here with out and out lies, misrepresentations, and exagerations. If I am able to find one example, will you question the motives and purposes of the critics of the LDS Church?

I make claims that I stand by. Here is one, once a con-man, always a con-man. As far as I know Joseph Smith jr. Never repented of his actions.

Apologette
12-03-2013, 03:30 PM
I make claims that I stand by. Here is one, once a con-man, always a con-man. As far as I know Joseph Smith jr. Never repented of his actions.

Exactly, and died about a month after arrogantly boasting he had done a greater work than Jesus. Blasphemy does have consequences.

Apologette
12-03-2013, 03:30 PM
Yes, they are. Because the can, and I've seen it happen many times, come back.

It is not ethical to count "might be" members.

RealFakeHair
12-03-2013, 03:33 PM
It is not ethical to count "might be" members.

I count myself a millionaire, well I might be someday.

Apologette
12-03-2013, 03:55 PM
I count myself a millionaire, well I might be someday.

LOL! I'm one of those myself.

Snow Patrol
12-03-2013, 04:05 PM
It is not ethical to count "might be" members.

If they have been baptized then they aren't "might be" members. I am thankful that the Church does not discard members like Christian Churches do if they don't show up for a while. My father is one of those people. He didn't go to church for close to 30 years but is now regularly attending again. I'm very thankful that he was always sought after and fellowshipped.

Snow Patrol
12-03-2013, 04:11 PM
“On the same basis men cannot be saved in their sins (Alma 11:37); the Lord has ordained the laws by which salvation and all good things come, and until obedience prepares the way, the promised blessings are withheld (D&C 88:21-24; 130:20-21; 132:5.). Men can no more be saved without obedience than they can be healed without faith. All things operate by law; blessings result from obedience to law and are withheld when there is no obedience” (BYU Professor Daniel H. Ludlow, A Companion to Your Study of the New Testament, p.222).

“Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God” (The Book of Mormon, Moroni 10:32).

And you guys better be sinless:

“And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins” (The Book of Mormon, Alma 11:37). (All underlines in these quotes have been added for emphasis.)

Oh, I see you left out verse 40 of Alma 11
"And he shall come into the world to redeem his people; and he shall take upon him the transgressions of those who believe on his name; and these are they that shall have eternal life, and salvation cometh to none else."

You see, what goal is acceptable for us to strive for. Eliminating 50% of our sins? How about 75%? I firmly believe that Christ wants us to eliminate 100% of our sins. Yet He knows we won't be able to and that is why he came. That is what our scriptures teach. You can go ahead and keep your belief that one should eliminate a fraction of their sins.

RealFakeHair
12-03-2013, 04:12 PM
If they have been baptized then they aren't "might be" members. I am thankful that the Church does not discard members like Christian Churches do if they don't show up for a while. My father is one of those people. He didn't go to church for close to 30 years but is now regularly attending again. I'm very thankful that he was always sought after and fellowshipped.

I don't know of any Christian church that drops members from their rolls thinks it means anything other than, the dropped member is no longer a member of said church, it doesn't mean the person is any less a christian.

RealFakeHair
12-03-2013, 04:15 PM
Oh, I see you left out verse 40 of Alma 11
"And he shall come into the world to redeem his people; and he shall take upon him the transgressions of those who believe on his name; and these are they that shall have eternal life, and salvation cometh to none else."

You see, what goal is acceptable for us to strive for. Eliminating 50% of our sins? How about 75%? I firmly believe that Christ wants us to eliminate 100% of our sins. Yet He knows we won't be able to and that is why he came. That is what our scriptures teach. You can go ahead and keep your belief that one should eliminate a fraction of their sins.

So I guess there is no EXALTATION for you?

Snow Patrol
12-03-2013, 04:16 PM
So I guess there is no EXALTATION for you?

I hope you understand that I'll go by what God says and not your evaluation. ;-)

RealFakeHair
12-03-2013, 04:19 PM
I hope you understand that I'll go by what God says and not your evaluation. ;-)

What? You doubt my word! How dare you!!!!
You might try and prove me wrong, but the research I've done tells me different.

Ma'am
12-03-2013, 05:03 PM
LOL! I'm one of those myself.

We are all rich in Jesus Christ, no matter what our bank balance is!

nrajeffreturns
12-03-2013, 06:30 PM
Lie #1. You will need to provide proof that LDS priesthood leadership claim that Mormons keep all the commandments.

That does indeed look like a lie, so I would like to see her defend it.

nrajeffreturns
12-03-2013, 06:39 PM
If they have been baptized then they aren't "might be" members. I am thankful that the Church does not discard members like Christian Churches do if they don't show up for a while. My father is one of those people. He didn't go to church for close to 30 years but is now regularly attending again. I'm very thankful that he was always sought after and fellowshipped.

That is a very valid point. Once our bishop was in need of a counselor, and the man he was inspired to call to the position hadn't been to church in 20 or so years. But he accepted the calling and was a great counselor, active in the church until his death.

Apologette
12-03-2013, 07:22 PM
What about Righteousness - Who has it?

A. There is none righteous, no, not one! We are entirely corrupt (Rom 3:10-12; Psalm 14:1-3; 53:1-3).
B. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God – we are bankrupt in righteousness (Rom 3:23).
C. You cannot find one man born of a woman that is clean and righteous before God (*** 15:14-16).
D. Do not be deceived on this matter! Do not deny the truth! You are desperately wicked (Jer 17:9).
E. Paul thought he was righteous, but God’s law exposed his filthiness (Rom 7:7-13; Philippians 3:6).
F. Not by works of righteousness, which we have done, but God’s mercy must save us (Ti tus 3:5). (from: http://www.letgodbetrue.com/pdf/clot...hteousness.pdf)

Mormons are unable to grasp the fact that they have nothing to offer God - (or in their case, the gods). They are totally lost. Salvation depends totally on God's mercy - but they have rejected that out of hand.

nrajeffreturns
12-03-2013, 08:57 PM
What about Righteousness - Who has it?

Certain anti-LDS people do, apparently: SELF-righteousness! :)

James Banta
12-04-2013, 11:40 AM
Certain anti-LDS people do, apparently: SELF-righteousness! :)

Jeff if we believe and teach that Jesus gives us HIS righteousness as we give Him our sin, just how can that be self righteousness? Remember we teach that "God made Jesus to be sin, He who know no sin that we can be made the righteousness of God in Him". Since no unclean thing can enter the Glory of God unto eternal life, those who believe is Him have been given that righteousness in the promise of everlasting life bestowed on them though Faith.. Are there any LDS that are righteous? If so where did their righteousness come from? IHS jim

Apologette
12-04-2013, 11:55 AM
Certain anti-LDS people do, apparently: SELF-righteousness! :)

No, that would be Joey Smith you're talking about - Mr. Arrogance himself.

Apologette
12-04-2013, 11:56 AM
We are all rich in Jesus Christ, no matter what our bank balance is!

And the treasure of Christians is in heaven; Mormons count wealth on earth and crave it!

Ma'am
12-04-2013, 02:12 PM
And the treasure of Christians is in heaven; Mormons count wealth on earth and crave it!

Isn't the LDS one of the wealthiest organizations on earth? Or at least, in the US?

nrajeffreturns
12-04-2013, 02:22 PM
And the treasure of Christians is in heaven; Mormons count wealth on earth and crave it!

Seems like it's the antis who are craving the wealth that the LDS have...I mean, look at all the posts bringing up the wealth of our church. It ain't US that are doing that....

neverending
12-04-2013, 04:31 PM
Seems like it's the antis who are craving the wealth that the LDS have...I mean, look at all the posts bringing up the wealth of our church. It ain't US that are doing that....

The problem with the LDS members is that they never give it any thought to how much money they bring in. Things are taken for granted it would seem. What bothers Christians is not that we envy anything, we only see that the LDS Church has become a business and we do know it is a Corporation since there is the Corporation of the 1st Presidency.
When there are so many people through out this country and around the world in need, I think it would be wise to do more to help those less fortunate but nope, let's buy up land and build a huge mall and million dollar condos. Your Church even bought a block of downtown Salt Lake, which also had part of our Main Street running through it. That has made it difficult for drivers to maneuver as everyone has to drive around that block which has caused a hardship on many. The Church receives profits from all of these ventures as well. God told us that we were to treasure up things in heaven, not of earth. You can't take it with you. Reminds me of a cartoon I saw once where a man had died and on the way to the cemetery to bury him, there was a truck pulling a U-Haul.

nrajeffreturns
12-04-2013, 10:28 PM
The problem with the LDS members is that they never give it any thought to how much money they bring in.
You may be partly right there--we probably don't give too much thought to how much money we're making, as a rule. But I wouldn't call it a problem. We realize we're blessed, and that's about all the thought we give to the subject. It's God's money, and if He allows us to have some of it, we try to be grateful, and use it for good purposes. With some of the money I get, I donate to Feed the Children and the Salvation Army, for example. I also donate to the ACLJ because I think Jay Sekulow is doing important work.


What bothers Christians is not that we envy anything
99% of the world's Christians don't give a second thought to how blessed the LDS church is. They have lives to live. The only Christians who obsess over this is a very small minority faction of Evangelicalism. A faction that comprises less than 1% of Christendom.

Sir
12-04-2013, 11:10 PM
I also donate to the ACLJ because I think Jay Sekulow is doing important work.




Nice!!!!

I agree about the ACLJ

Apologette
12-11-2013, 11:25 AM
I wonder if the Mormons here had their lives laid open like a book - how many would be able to get a temple recommend. My guess is none.

nrajeffreturns
12-11-2013, 01:22 PM
I wonder if the Mormons here had their lives laid open like a book - how many would be able to get a temple recommend. My guess is none.

Your guesses have been consistently wrong in the past, so why break the trend now? :)

BigJulie
12-11-2013, 01:25 PM
Your guesses have been consistently wrong in the past, so why break the trend now? :)

LOL.

I guess it is hard for those who have not experienced the help of Holy Ghost to live righteously do not believe it is really possible.

I know so many people well who are so good and so righteous. They really are a living testimony to the gospel of Jesus Christ and that it does change the hearts of men. Put me in a group of temple worthy Mormons and I know I am in a safe place.

Apologette
12-11-2013, 01:58 PM
We are all rich in Jesus Christ, no matter what our bank balance is!

All the Mormon "treasures" laid up on earth will be destroyed in the end - only that done for Jesus will remain!

Apologette
12-11-2013, 01:58 PM
LOL.

I guess it is hard for those who have not experienced the help of Holy Ghost to live righteously do not believe it is really possible.

I know so many people well who are so good and so righteous. They really are a living testimony to the gospel of Jesus Christ and that it does change the hearts of men. Put me in a group of temple worthy Mormons and I know I am in a safe place.

Yeah, Julie, safe from the Gospel, that's for sure.

RealFakeHair
12-11-2013, 02:02 PM
LOL.

I guess it is hard for those who have not experienced the help of Holy Ghost to live righteously do not believe it is really possible.

I know so many people well who are so good and so righteous. They really are a living testimony to the gospel of Jesus Christ and that it does change the hearts of men. Put me in a group of temple worthy Mormons and I know I am in a safe place.

What an ego, and you are correct, I don't know what it is like to have Joseph Smith jr. Spirit in my heart.
I do know my righteousnesses is as filthy rags.