Satan and the Mormon Temple "Secret" Rites! Don't Get Involved!

[Apologette]

Mormons keep their temple rites secret. And for good cause. If people knew what went on in the secret Mormon temples they'd never be talked into converting to Mormonism. Satan plays a very prominent, if not the most prominent role in these secret rites. Most people, even if t hey aren't Christians, have enough common sense to stay away from anyting related to Satanism.

One person who went through the Mormon temple put it this way: "If the rites were really God's truth, then wouldn't Satan be trying to talk everyone out of them? If I pray to Satan to ask him what I should do, would he answer: "Be a good Mormon or I'll get you?"

The temple endowment made me wonder, whose side is Satan actually on? Apparently he's on the Mormon Church's side - that is, if you take the temple ceremony seriously.

So just follow Satan's advice if you want to be a good Mormon. That's what I learned in the temple." (http://www.i4m.com/think/temples/temple_experience.htm , my underlining)

Why would a temple-going Mormon come away with this impression? Because Satan plays a very significant role in the secret, Masonic-based, temple ceremonies of Mormons:

For instance, check out this portion of the Mormon rite:


THE APRON

[Lucifer returns as Adam is eating the fruit.]

LUCIFER: That is right.

EVE: [To Adam.] It is better for us to p*** through sorrow that we may know the good from the evil. [To Lucifer.] I know thee now. Thou art Lucifer, he who was cast out of Father's presence for rebellion.

LUCIFER: Yes. You are beginning to see already.

ADAM: What is that apron you have on?

LUCIFER: It is an emblem of my power and priesthoods.

ADAM: Priesthoods?

LUCIFER: Yes, priesthoods.

ADAM: I am looking for Father to come down to give us further instructions.

LUCIFER: Oh, you are looking for Father to come down, are you?

[Elohim and Jehovah are heard speaking outside the Garden Room.]

ELOHIM: Jehovah, we promised Adam that we would visit him and give him further instructions. Come, let us go down.

JEHOVAH: We will go down, Elohim.

ADAM: I hear their voices; they are coming.

LUCIFER: See--you are naked. Take some fig leaves and make you aprons. Father will see your nakedness. Quick! Hide!

[Lucifer withdraws from view.]

ADAM: Brethren and sisters, put on your aprons.

[He waits until they have done so.]

[To Eve.] Come, let us hide.

[Adam and Eve withdraw from view.]

Notice how Lucifer (Satan) declares he has priesthoods! Who gave him those priesthoods but his "heavenly father," the Mormon deity? Satan is his (heavenly father's) second spirit baby. So one might ask, where do Mormon priesthood claims come from? Furthermore, who tells the Mormon temple participants to wear aprons? Satan
again!

Later on, Satan actually threatens the Mormon deity:

LUCIFER IS EXPELLED FROM THE GARDEN

ELOHIM: Lucifer!

[Lucifer returns.]

ELOHIM: What hast thou been doing here?

LUCIFER: I have been doing that which has been done on other worlds.

ELOHIM: What is that?

LUCIFER: I have been giving some of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil to them.

ELOHIM: Lucifer, because thou hast done this, thou shalt be cursed above all the beasts of the field. Upon thy belly thou shalt go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life.

LUCIFER: If thou cursest me for doing the same thing which has been done on other worlds, I will take the spirits that follow me, and they shall possess the bodies thou createst for Adam and Eve!

ELOHIM: I will place enmity between thee and the seed of the woman. Thou mayest have power to bruise his heal, but he shall have power to crush thy head.

LUCIFER: Then with that enmity I will take the treasures of the earth, and with gold and silver I will buy up armies and navies, popes and priests, and reign with blood and horror on the earth! (note: rite changed to read: "false priests who oppress and tyrants who destroy.")

ELOHIM: Depart!

What a perversion - the Bible no place records this threat, and Satan is seen as an equal of the Mormon god, "Elohim."

Further on in this parody of creation, the Mormon god doesn't answer Adam and Eve's prayers. Who does? Satan:

ADAM: Brethren and sisters, this represents the telestial kingdom, or the world in which we now live. Adam, on finding himself in the lone and dreary world, built an altar and offered prayer, and these are the words he uttered:

Oh God, hear the words of my mouth.
Oh God, hear the words of my mouth.
Oh God, hear the words of my mouth.

(Note: these are the same words that Mormon participants say in their temple prayer circle! So what happens? Lucifer answers Adam's prayers. Is this who answers Mormon prayers as well?)

LUCIFER: I hear you. What is it you want?

ADAM: Who are you?

LUCIFER: I am the god of this world.

ADAM: You, the god of this world?

LUCIFER: Yes. What do you want?

ADAM: I am looking for messengers.

LUCIFER: Oh, you want someone to preach to you. You want religion, do you? There will be many willing to preach to you the philosophies of men mingled with scripture.

Then after Satan talks about mingling scriptures with philosophies (as Mormons here do) he goes on to boast about his power:

LUCIFER: Now is the great day of my power. I reign from the rivers to the ends of the earth. There is none who dares to molest or make afraid.

Note: Mormons are wary of water. They believe it is the domain of Satan. The FLDS are as well.

And further on, Satan threatens the Mormon initiates that unless they keep their "temple" convenats, they'll be in his power:

LUCIFER: Ah! You have looked over my kingdom and my greatness and glory. Now you want to take possession of the whole of it.

[He indicates the initiates.]

I have a word to say concerning these people. If they do not walk up to every covenant they make at these altars in this temple this day, they will be in my power!



Folks it is Satan who wants people to be Mormons - and he threatens them if they don't comply with their temple promises! How bizarre is that? Furthermore, according to the Tanners,:


Another important change has been made in the sign for the Second Token of the Melchizedek Priesthood. In the 1984 version of the endowment ceremony, as printed in Appendix A of Evolution of the Mormon Temple Ceremony, page 94, we find this:

"The sign is made by raising both hands high above the head (Officiator demonstrates.), and while lowering the hands repeating aloud the words:

Pay Lay Ale
Pay Lay Ale
Pay Lay Ale"

As early as 1969 we pointed out a problem with this: "...there seems to have been a change made in this part of the ceremony, for the Salt Lake Tribune, Feb. 12, 1906, gave the words as 'Pale, Ale, Ale,' and Temple Mormonism used the words 'Pale, Hale, Hale.' " (The Mormon Kingdom, vol. 1, p. 138)

However this may be, in another portion of the temple ceremony, it is explained that "Pay Lay Ale" means "Oh God, hear the words of my mouth!" (see this important source for info on Mormon temple changes: http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no76.htm)

So, the initiates pray Adam and Eve's prayer -the very one that Satan answered. And remember, according to the temple rites, he is the real god of this world (they apparently don't understand metaphor).

Folks, Satan plays the central role in Mormon temple rites - don't get involved with the Satanic! You'll find yourself serving a cult that will demand 10 percent of your income for the rest of your life! And demand that you say an oath declaring all that you have or will have is dedicated to "the kingdom of God," which in Mormonese is The Mormon Church!

[BigJulie]

Oh, so sad Apollogette.

As having gone to the temple many times, what I have learned is that the temple covenants are a gift that if lived improve your life. I know this with a surety. Those who try to discredit it have not experienced the joy and peace ***ociated with it.

God is a ritualistic God. He always has been. You can see it with the sacrifice of animals in the beginning. You can see it with baptisms and Sacrament today. I believe He does this because we are not only spiritual beings, but physical beings. By attaching a physical ritual to a spiritual covenant, it helps us connect our physical bodies to our spiritual desires.

Going to the temple may, at first, seem different--because we are not used to being taught in such a deep ritualistic way. But I have learned and discovered for myself that it is one of the greatest gifts given to us by the Savior. Anyone who goes to the temple faithfully and lives by the covenants made therein will have a better life, will experience more joy, have more peace and be closer to God. I know this because I have lived it.

[neverending]

Oh, so sad Apollogette.

As having gone to the temple many times, what I have learned is that the temple covenants are a gift that if lived improve your life. I know this with a surety. Those who try to discredit it have not experienced the joy and peace ***ociated with it.

God is a ritualistic God. He always has been. You can see it with the sacrifice of animals in the beginning. You can see it with baptisms and Sacrament today. I believe He does this because we are not only spiritual beings, but physical beings. By attaching a physical ritual to a spiritual covenant, it helps us connect our physical bodies to our spiritual desires.

Going to the temple may, at first, seem different--because we are not used to being taught in such a deep ritualistic way. But I have learned and discovered for myself that it is one of the greatest gifts given to us by the Savior. Anyone who goes to the temple faithfully and lives by the covenants made therein will have a better life, will experience more joy, have more peace and be closer to God. I know this because I have lived it.

Julie,
May I ask what year it was when you first went to the temple?

[James Banta]

Oh, so sad Apollogette.

As having gone to the temple many times, what I have learned is that the temple covenants are a gift that if lived improve your life. I know this with a surety. Those who try to discredit it have not experienced the joy and peace ***ociated with it.

God is a ritualistic God. He always has been. You can see it with the sacrifice of animals in the beginning. You can see it with baptisms and Sacrament today. I believe He does this because we are not only spiritual beings, but physical beings. By attaching a physical ritual to a spiritual covenant, it helps us connect our physical bodies to our spiritual desires.

Going to the temple may, at first, seem different--because we are not used to being taught in such a deep ritualistic way. But I have learned and discovered for myself that it is one of the greatest gifts given to us by the Savior. Anyone who goes to the temple faithfully and lives by the covenants made therein will have a better life, will experience more joy, have more peace and be closer to God. I know this because I have lived it.

No one, NOT ONE PERSON has ever kept a convent they have made with God.. I remind you of the covenants made in the sacrament prayers. You make a promise to keep his commandments which he hath given them.. Do you do that? Are you even aware of all the commandments given just in the New Testament. There are nearly 1,200 of them.. Do you go into the world and teach all people? Do you baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. And teach them to observe all things whatsoever God has commanded? Do you ever get angry over nothing? Have you ever taken an oath? Have you given to those that always seem to be asking to borrow from you even though they never return what you loan to them? Are you sure you are keeping your covenants, you have made with God to always keep His commandments.

I have look deeply into myself and find that I am one of the most disobedient people to whom God ever offered His grace. Yet He tells me through the Bible that He became sin for me and gave me His righteousness in exchange.. My covenant with Him it to believe, love, and trust.. His, is to make me His child and give me eternal life.. Yes I get the better deal. That is why He is worthy of my love and praise.. I once was lost but now He has found me. I was blind but now I can see Him.. Ritual and religiosity can never replace the peace and security I have being His child.. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

Oh, so sad Apollogette.

As having gone to the temple many times, what I have learned is that the temple covenants are a gift that if lived improve your life. I know this with a surety. Those who try to discredit it have not experienced the joy and peace ***ociated with it.

God is a ritualistic God. He always has been. You can see it with the sacrifice of animals in the beginning. You can see it with baptisms and Sacrament today. I believe He does this because we are not only spiritual beings, but physical beings. By attaching a physical ritual to a spiritual covenant, it helps us connect our physical bodies to our spiritual desires.

Going to the temple may, at first, seem different--because we are not used to being taught in such a deep ritualistic way. But I have learned and discovered for myself that it is one of the greatest gifts given to us by the Savior. Anyone who goes to the temple faithfully and lives by the covenants made therein will have a better life, will experience more joy, have more peace and be closer to God. I know this because I have lived it.

I agree with your well-made points, Julie.

[BigJulie]

Julie,
May I ask what year it was when you first went to the temple?

Many years ago. I am old. And if you ask me about what has occurred over the years, I will ***ure you that my testimony of the temple has grown stronger with each year I get older and my study of the scriptures has grown more in depth and my knowledge of God greater.

And then when I have studied Hebrew, my testimony of the temple grew stronger still.

[BigJulie]

No one, NOT ONE PERSON has ever kept a convent they have made with God.. I remind you of the covenants made in the sacrament prayers. You make a promise to keep his commandments which he hath given them.. Do you do that? Are you even aware of all the commandments given just in the New Testament. There are nearly 1,200 of them.. Do you go into the world and teach all people? Do you baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. And teach them to observe all things whatsoever God has commanded? Do you ever get angry over nothing? Have you ever taken an oath? Have you given to those that always seem to be asking to borrow from you even though they never return what you loan to them? Are you sure you are keeping your covenants, you have made with God to always keep His commandments.

I have look deeply into myself and find that I am one of the most disobedient people to whom God ever offered His grace. Yet He tells me through the Bible that He became sin for me and gave me His righteousness in exchange.. My covenant with Him it to believe, love, and trust.. His, is to make me His child and give me eternal life.. Yes I get the better deal. That is why He is worthy of my love and praise.. I once was lost but now He has found me. I was blind but now I can see Him.. Ritual and religiosity can never replace the peace and security I have being His child.. IHS jim


One person (also God) has kept a covenant with God the Father and that is Jesus Christ. He has covenanted to return His people to the fold. Yes, James---Christ has promised the repentant sinner cleansing. This is a process. We have already discussed it many times.

[Apologette]

Oh, so sad Apollogette.

As having gone to the temple many times, what I have learned is that the temple covenants are a gift that if lived improve your life. I know this with a surety. Those who try to discredit it have not experienced the joy and peace ***ociated with it.

God is a ritualistic God. He always has been. You can see it with the sacrifice of animals in the beginning. You can see it with baptisms and Sacrament today. I believe He does this because we are not only spiritual beings, but physical beings. By attaching a physical ritual to a spiritual covenant, it helps us connect our physical bodies to our spiritual desires.

Going to the temple may, at first, seem different--because we are not used to being taught in such a deep ritualistic way. But I have learned and discovered for myself that it is one of the greatest gifts given to us by the Savior. Anyone who goes to the temple faithfully and lives by the covenants made therein will have a better life, will experience more joy, have more peace and be closer to God. I know this because I have lived it.
So you have no problem with Satan's large part in your "temple" rites? Too bad, Julie, too bad.

[Apologette]

No one, NOT ONE PERSON has ever kept a convent they have made with God.. I remind you of the covenants made in the sacrament prayers. You make a promise to keep his commandments which he hath given them.. Do you do that? Are you even aware of all the commandments given just in the New Testament. There are nearly 1,200 of them.. Do you go into the world and teach all people? Do you baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. And teach them to observe all things whatsoever God has commanded? Do you ever get angry over nothing? Have you ever taken an oath? Have you given to those that always seem to be asking to borrow from you even though they never return what you loan to them? Are you sure you are keeping your covenants, you have made with God to always keep His commandments.

I have look deeply into myself and find that I am one of the most disobedient people to whom God ever offered His grace. Yet He tells me through the Bible that He became sin for me and gave me His righteousness in exchange.. My covenant with Him it to believe, love, and trust.. His, is to make me His child and give me eternal life.. Yes I get the better deal. That is why He is worthy of my love and praise.. I once was lost but now He has found me. I was blind but now I can see Him.. Ritual and religiosity can never replace the peace and security I have being His child.. IHS jim

How often have you ever seen a Mormon admit they are a sinner? I never have. There is a certain spiritual arrogance which is the fruit of Mormonism. Pride!

[BigJulie]

So you have no problem with Satan's large part in your "temple" rites? Too bad, Julie, too bad.

Yes, unfortunately--Satan has always played a large part in this world. He was there in the Garden of Eden (which God obviously allowed) and is here trying to tempt people on earth. What we learn is how to live in a such a way that he has no power over us and we are freed through Christ.

[BigJulie]

How often have you ever seen a Mormon admit they are a sinner? I never have. There is a certain spiritual arrogance which is the fruit of Mormonism. Pride!

You are kidding, right? I think I have acknowledged many times that the only perfect being ever to walk this earth is Jesus Christ. In fact, I think we often discuss even the prophets as being human and therefore flawed. Luckily, the gospel is perfect in spite.

[neverending]

Oh, so sad Apollogette.

As having gone to the temple many times, what I have learned is that the temple covenants are a gift that if lived improve your life. I know this with a surety. Those who try to discredit it have not experienced the joy and peace ***ociated with it.

God is a ritualistic God. He always has been. You can see it with the sacrifice of animals in the beginning. You can see it with baptisms and Sacrament today. I believe He does this because we are not only spiritual beings, but physical beings. By attaching a physical ritual to a spiritual covenant, it helps us connect our physical bodies to our spiritual desires.

Going to the temple may, at first, seem different--because we are not used to being taught in such a deep ritualistic way. But I have learned and discovered for myself that it is one of the greatest gifts given to us by the Savior. Anyone who goes to the temple faithfully and lives by the covenants made therein will have a better life, will experience more joy, have more peace and be closer to God. I know this because I have lived it.

Julie....as one who went through the temple to be married, it was the most disgusting and vile experience of my life. That is why I've asked what year did you first go to the temple? I know there have been major changes to the ceremony starting in 1990, when all the blood oaths and penalties were removed along with the part where Lucifer appears and speaks about ministers and how he would pay them well. This was my wedding day and I had to spend 3 hours first getting felt up by 3 old women and then the 2 hour session doing all sorts of vile things. How was this a beautiful experience? Explain to me how any of those weird covenants, "if lived improve your life." IF? So you're saying that there are worthy members of the LDS Church who have temple recommends that don't live those covenants. Is that not being hypocritical and should those members have their recommends taken from them? BTW, Jesus Christ, NEVER taught anything about marriage in the temple. There was ONE temple, and it was used ONLY for animal sacrifices, nothing more. Can you not see how you've been lead down the primrose path? Have you not seen how this secret ceremony goes against everything God taught? Even your BoM taught in Ether 8:18-19, "and it came to p*** that they formed a secret combination, even as they of old; which combination is most abominable and wicked above all, in the sight of God; for the Lord worketh not in secret combinations, neither doth he will that men should shed blood, but in all things hath forbidden it, from the beginning of man." How then can you go against what is written within your BoM, a book that is highly revered?

[James Banta]

One person (also God) has kept a covenant with God the Father and that is Jesus Christ. He has covenanted to return His people to the fold. Yes, James---Christ has promised the repentant sinner cleansing. This is a process. We have already discussed it many times.

Because Jesus is God I exclude Him from the ranks of sinful mankind.. He didn't stop being God when He entered mortality. He had nothing to learn in so doing.. He came here to rescue us. That was the ONLY reason He became mortal. That couldn't have been done if He sinned.. If you agree with that you are still ahead of most Smithites.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

How often have you ever seen a Mormon admit they are a sinner? I never have. There is a certain spiritual arrogance which is the fruit of Mormonism. Pride!

I have seen it often enough.. I see them believing that they can measure sin in degrees.. Little ones are less serious.. I ***ume they believe taking their sacrament handles all of those. The bigger ones will either drop them out of the celestial kingdom or cause them to start up their 8 point repentance process.. By what they (Sir that is) says about me and my repentance, I ***ume that there are some sins they still believe a man must shed his own blood to gain forgiveness. And of course those are not committed by any LDS. In their doctrine of sin they refuse to believe God's word.. The Holy Spirit made it clear through the Apostle James..

James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Are we taught in the p***age that the sin had to be one that the LDS see as serious? Not at all. It is clear that if we commit ANY sin we have become guilty of offending the whole law..

Back before Joseph Smith went totally crazy in teaching that people could become Gods to their own spirit children and organize worlds for them to live on he taught a lot of orthodox doctrine.. One orthodox point is found in 2 Nephi 9:34. It holds that God sees lying to be as serious as adultery, murder, or any other sin on their serious list..

2 Nephi 9:34
Wo unto the liar, for he shall be thrust down to hell.

It is important to know that I only have to murder one person to be a murderer, I only have to commit adultery one time to be an adulterer. And I only need to tell one lie to be a liar.. Lying is then as serious in the sight of God as any other sin that can be committed.. When they start to understand that maybe their humility will increase.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Many years ago. I am old. And if you ask me about what has occurred over the years, I will ***ure you that my testimony of the temple has grown stronger with each year I get older and my study of the scriptures has grown more in depth and my knowledge of God greater.

And then when I have studied Hebrew, my testimony of the temple grew stronger still.
Can you show me in the Bible where the NT members built and utilized a temple like the LDS do today?

[James Banta]

Can you show me in the Bible where the NT members built and utilized a temple like the LDS do today?

She can't do it.. It just flat isn't there.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Yes, unfortunately--Satan has always played a large part in this world. He was there in the Garden of Eden (which God obviously allowed) and is here trying to tempt people on earth. What we learn is how to live in a such a way that he has no power over us and we are freed through Christ.

Really Julie when did you accept the Flip Wilson version of the Bible "The devil made me do it"? Most of our sin has nothing to do with the power that Satan holds.. It comes from our own hearts.

Jer 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked

Do you see it Julie? The heart lies more than anything, that would include Satan.. Above that it is desperately wicked. It is so wicked that only God can fathom it's depths of evil.. Take responsibility for the sin that in you and stop laying it all on Satan..It is our own hearts of flesh that is at war with the spirit Jesus died to to give to us.. Only in that new creation, the second birth, can the evil that is born in our flesh in the first birth (the natural man) be defeated.. Only God can give us that second birth, and promises to do so to all that believe in Jesus, the Jesus revealed in the Bible not one made up in the HEART of a natural man.. IHS jim

[Apologette]

Really Julie when did you accept the Flip Wilson version of the Bible "The devil made me do it"? Most of our sin has nothing to do with the power that Satan holds.. It comes from our own hearts.

Jer 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked

Do you see it Julie? The heart lies more than anything, that would include Satan.. Above that it is desperately wicked. It is so wicked that only God can fathom it's depths of evil.. Take responsibility for the sin that in you and stop laying it all on Satan..It is our own hearts of flesh that is at war with the spirit Jesus died to to give to us.. Only in that new creation, the second birth, can the evil that is born in our flesh in the first birth (the natural man) be defeated.. Only God can give us that second birth, and promises to do so to all that believe in Jesus, the Jesus revealed in the Bible not one made up in the HEART of a natural man.. IHS jim
Which is exactly why the Mormon contention that they have received affirmation of the authenticity of the Book of Mormon by some kind of interior feeling is absolutely bogus! The unregenerate heart can also give people "affirmation" of Krishna as a god, etc.

[BigJulie]

She can't do it.. It just flat isn't there.. IHS jim

I don't have to do it. What I can show you is that God does build temples for His people and they are a covenant people.

[BigJulie]

Julie....as one who went through the temple to be married, it was the most disgusting and vile experience of my life. That is why I've asked what year did you first go to the temple? I know there have been major changes to the ceremony starting in 1990, when all the blood oaths and penalties were removed along with the part where Lucifer appears and speaks about ministers and how he would pay them well. This was my wedding day and I had to spend 3 hours first getting felt up by 3 old women and then the 2 hour session doing all sorts of vile things. How was this a beautiful experience? Explain to me how any of those weird covenants, "if lived improve your life." IF? So you're saying that there are worthy members of the LDS Church who have temple recommends that don't live those covenants. Is that not being hypocritical and should those members have their recommends taken from them? BTW, Jesus Christ, NEVER taught anything about marriage in the temple. There was ONE temple, and it was used ONLY for animal sacrifices, nothing more. Can you not see how you've been lead down the primrose path? Have you not seen how this secret ceremony goes against everything God taught? Even your BoM taught in Ether 8:18-19, "and it came to p*** that they formed a secret combination, even as they of old; which combination is most abominable and wicked above all, in the sight of God; for the Lord worketh not in secret combinations, neither doth he will that men should shed blood, but in all things hath forbidden it, from the beginning of man." How then can you go against what is written within your BoM, a book that is highly revered?


Interesting that you and I should have such different experiences. "Vile" would never be a word I would use to describe the temple experience. I was sealed in the temple long before 1990.

How have the covenants improved my life? Well, I guess I will give you an example. If I wanted to give my child a great gift, what would it be? I could give them a house or a car, but those things are fleeting and will not necessarily bring them happiness. But what type of gift could I give them that would give them happiness? Let's start with the gift of chas..ti.ty (I separate this word out because WM's website will delete part of it.) Is this a gift that will give them happiness throughout their life? Yes, absolutely. If I could give my child this gift...it would serve them well. They would not know the heartache of abandonment of sleeping with someone uncommitted to them. It would save them from many forms of disease. It would save them from the possibility of an out-of-wedlock birth or the temptation of abortion---all of which brings pain and suffering. Yes, if I could give my child this gift, it would be great indeed. But how could I give such a gift. Well, the first thing I might do to give this gift is to make them promise to me that they will live a chaste life. Second, I would share with them what this promise would bring to their life. But what if I could give them a grand understanding of why they make this promise and what if I could give to them the power to resist the temptation to be unchaste? Well then, I would have given them a great gift indeed. One that would serve their lives and make them happy.

In the temple, the covenants we make bring us happiness. This I know for sure and without a doubt. In the temple, we understand who we are and what we mean to God. We understand the purpose of this life and what the Savior has done for us. Those who live by faithful to their temple covenants will have peace and joy in this life (and I have faith, in the world to come as well.)

Lastly, I know you believe that the temple is something wrong and not part of God's religion....but if I showed you something in the Old Testament that showed outright that Isaiah was aware of the temple covenants and spoke of them, would you, right now, forsake what you are saying against the church and return back to activity?

[James Banta]

Interesting that you and I should have such different experiences. "Vile" would never be a word I would use to describe the temple experience. I was sealed in the temple long before 1990.

How have the covenants improved my life? Well, I guess I will give you an example. If I wanted to give my child a great gift, what would it be? I could give them a house or a car, but those things are fleeting and will not necessarily bring them happiness. But what type of gift could I give them that would give them happiness? Let's start with the gift of chas..ti.ty (I separate this word out because WM's website will delete part of it.) Is this a gift that will give them happiness throughout their life? Yes, absolutely. If I could give my child this gift...it would serve them well. They would not know the heartache of abandonment of sleeping with someone uncommitted to them. It would save them from many forms of disease. It would save them from the possibility of an out-of-wedlock birth or the temptation of abortion---all of which brings pain and suffering. Yes, if I could give my child this gift, it would be great indeed. But how could I give such a gift. Well, the first thing I might do to give this gift is to make them promise to me that they will live a chaste life. Second, I would share with them what this promise would bring to their life. But what if I could give them a grand understanding of why they make this promise and what if I could give to them the power to resist the temptation to be unchaste? Well then, I would have given them a great gift indeed. One that would serve their lives and make them happy.

In the temple, the covenants we make bring us happiness. This I know for sure and without a doubt. In the temple, we understand who we are and what we mean to God. We understand the purpose of this life and what the Savior has done for us. Those who live by faithful to their temple covenants will have peace and joy in this life (and I have faith, in the world to come as well.)

And of course you could never find that God is a lover of chasti ty anywhere else like the say the Bible? You had to go to a place that Jesus taught against to learn that? Remember He said swear not at all? (Matthew 5:34).. And yet that is what you did in the temple, swear oaths.. But you still learned Chat ity in the temple.. Maybe instead of promising to slit your throat or open your bowels you should have read God's word 1 Thessalonians 4:3 ESV "For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality", Romans 13:13 ESV "Let us walk properly as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality...", and among other references Ephesians 5:3 ESV "But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you...". But you had to run to a building, and swear oaths to find out about chasti ty?

One other point you can teach a person chast ity but you surely can't give it to them.. I admit that immorality contains no joy, and gives no peace, or love.. I hate the day I became so involved and yet praise God for His restorative grace.. The joy of chasti ty is not exclusive to the LDS temple it is found everywhere God has moved in the hearts of men.. The question is why not go to Him directly and see His answers in His word rather than go where you had to take blood oaths.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

And of course you could never find that God is a lover of chasti ty.. You had to go to a place that Jesus taught against to learn that? Remember He said swear to at all? (Matthew 5:34).. And yet that is what you do in the temple swear oaths.. But you still learned Chat ity in the temple.. Maybe instead of promising to slit your throat or open your bowels you should have read God's word 1 Thessalonians 4:3 ESV "For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality", Romans 13:13 ESV "Let us walk properly as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality...", and among other references Ephesians 5:3 ESV "But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you...". But you had to run to a building, and swear oaths to find out about chasti ty?

One other point you can teach a person chast ity but you surely can't give it to them.. I admit that immorality contains no joy, peace, or love.. I hate the day I became so involved and yet praise God for His restorative grace.. The joy of chasti ty is not exclusive to the LDS temple it is found everywhere God has moved in the hearts of men.. The question is why not go to Him directly and see His answers in His word rather than go where you had to take blood oaths.. IHS jim

I am hoping that neverending will respond to my previous post.

James, let me tell you how I feel about the temple and chast ity and how I see your situation---which is very sad indeed.

What I know of for sure is that if you had continued going faithfully to the temple, you would have never hurt your wife the way you did. Of that, I am positive. Now, I do not bring this up to speak against you, but mainly to point out the protection that the temple offers.

You have said in the past that I don't think you can repent of that sin....that is absolutely NOT true. I believe you can. But let me tell you why I think you haven't.

It is because you continue to teach the false doctrine that the sin of adultery is no different from other sins such as telling a white lie. I absolutely know, without a doubt, that that is false doctrine. There are sins that are more offensive to God then others (even though all sin removes us from being like God). That is why Christ can speak of a "greater ****ation" to the Pharisees. He understood that their sin was more offensive than others.

And let me tell you something else. (This is my own personal opinion). I think it is abusive to those you love to act like your sin of adultery is no different from other sins---it is not--and it is unfair to ask anyone to act like the hurt you caused them is no different than the hurt caused by other smaller sins (such as telling a white lie.) For me, my own discernment tells me that one has repented for a sin when one can recognize with full responsibility and recognition of the hurt they have caused and not brush it off as if it was not different than something of a lesser degree.

So, there you have it. If I was your wife, I would have none of it. I would not accept the false belief that your sin is no different than others. And I would expect you to treat it with the full-weight of understanding and repentance such a sin would warrant and no less.

And for me (because I am Mormon), that would entail going to the bishop, confessing your sin---allowing the full weight of your sin to be decided upon by those in authority by God to judge---to make full amends to all---and then a full return to temple activity. Only when you had recommitted to going to the temple faithfully would I know with ***urance that you have taken seriously your sin and done all you can to never commit it again.

[neverending]

Interesting that you and I should have such different experiences. "Vile" would never be a word I would use to describe the temple experience. I was sealed in the temple long before 1990.

How have the covenants improved my life? Well, I guess I will give you an example. If I wanted to give my child a great gift, what would it be? I could give them a house or a car, but those things are fleeting and will not necessarily bring them happiness. But what type of gift could I give them that would give them happiness? Let's start with the gift of chas..ti.ty (I separate this word out because WM's website will delete part of it.) Is this a gift that will give them happiness throughout their life? Yes, absolutely. If I could give my child this gift...it would serve them well. They would not know the heartache of abandonment of sleeping with someone uncommitted to them. It would save them from many forms of disease. It would save them from the possibility of an out-of-wedlock birth or the temptation of abortion---all of which brings pain and suffering. Yes, if I could give my child this gift, it would be great indeed. But how could I give such a gift. Well, the first thing I might do to give this gift is to make them promise to me that they will live a chaste life. Second, I would share with them what this promise would bring to their life. But what if I could give them a grand understanding of why they make this promise and what if I could give to them the power to resist the temptation to be unchaste? Well then, I would have given them a great gift indeed. One that would serve their lives and make them happy.

In the temple, the covenants we make bring us happiness. This I know for sure and without a doubt. In the temple, we understand who we are and what we mean to God. We understand the purpose of this life and what the Savior has done for us. Those who live by faithful to their temple covenants will have peace and joy in this life (and I have faith, in the world to come as well.)

Lastly, I know you believe that the temple is something wrong and not part of God's religion....but if I showed you something in the Old Testament that showed outright that Isaiah was aware of the temple covenants and spoke of them, would you, right now, forsake what you are saying against the church and return back to activity?

Julie, I appreciate all you've found from attending your temple but yes, it is very interesting that we both experienced different feelings about it. The day I entered the temple to marry James, as I was sitting there going through all the requirements. the one thought kept coming into my head, "why would God want us to do these vile things? This is not right! As I sat there, I then heard a voice which said, "GET UP, LEAVE! You do not belong here!" I heard this voice three times. With each time I heard this voice, it was more insistent til I almost did get up and felt like something was trying to push me to my feet. Now, who do you think was speaking to me? I know it was the Holy Spirit trying to warn me as He had warned me many times before. Julie, to hear you talk, I can clearly see how totally blind you are to things of the spirit. God did NOT ordain this ceremony. You also totally forgot what is written within your BoM about secret combinations.
I would appreciate too if you would be so kind as to share with me what exactly Isaiah said concerning temple covenants for I am not familiar with anything of the kind. Since I know that Isaiah never mentioned covenants I would never return to Mormonism. With all the knowledge I've learned since leaving it in 1980, I know without a doubt that it is a cult and teaches another gospel which we as believers have been warned against. Would you turn from Mormonism if you had an open mind and truly believed in your own scriptures such as what I mentioned about the secret combinations that Ether mentions? Would you turn from Mormonism knowing that the temple ceremony is so similar to what the Masons do in their temples? With Joseph Smith having been a 33 degree Mason, which is the highest level within the Scottish Right, why does the LDS ceremony follow so closely what they do? I think it's more of the lies that Joseph Smith perpetrated on the uneducated people of his day. All the keys, signs and penalties and the 5 points of fellowship are exactly the same!

[neverending]

Julie, since James' sin was against me and has nothing to do with you then it is none of your business. What I have seen from your comment is this, you have kept one important thing out of your personal opinion, and that is God! Since I know to well that the Mormon god is a weak god, having once been a human being, how can he really do much? You certainly don't believe he has always existed as god and that is sad. Going to a Mormon Bishop is ridiculous! I know of none that have any training in emotional issues or marriage counseling. Where do they get off judging anyone? It is not their business either. Any sin is between the sinner and GOD and anyone they may have hurt. Jesus Christ is our go between for us. He approaches God's throne and intercedes for us, the believers; that is all that is necessary. The temple is not going to save you. It is a poor substi tute for God and his love for you. And since James has not committed any other infidelity, I can attest that his sin has been forgiven and he has become a changed man. No one is perfect, no one! There are many LDS who have committed adultery so don't tell me that temple going members never commit sin for that would be a falsehood. And you don't understand either about God for he sees ALL sin as just that, SIN! He can not accept any kind of sin since he is perfect. So don't put differing degrees of sinning into your comment for I do not accept that. A white lie is still a lie which makes one a liar does it not??

[James Banta]

I am hoping that neverending will respond to my previous post.

James, let me tell you how I feel about the temple and chast ity and how I see your situation---which is very sad indeed.

What I know of for sure is that if you had continued going faithfully to the temple, you would have never hurt your wife the way you did. Of that, I am positive. Now, I do not bring this up to speak against you, but mainly to point out the protection that the temple offers.

You have said in the past that I don't think you can repent of that sin....that is absolutely NOT true. I believe you can. But let me tell you why I think you haven't.

It is because you continue to teach the false doctrine that the sin of adultery is no different from other sins such as telling a white lie. I absolutely know, without a doubt, that that is false doctrine. There are sins that are more offensive to God then others (even though all sin removes us from being like God). That is why Christ can speak of a "greater ****ation" to the Pharisees. He understood that their sin was more offensive than others.

And let me tell you something else. (This is my own personal opinion). I think it is abusive to those you love to act like your sin of adultery is no different from other sins---it is not--and it is unfair to ask anyone to act like the hurt you caused them is no different than the hurt caused by other smaller sins (such as telling a white lie.) For me, my own discernment tells me that one has repented for a sin when one can recognize with full responsibility and recognition of the hurt they have caused and not brush it off as if it was not different than something of a lesser degree.

So, there you have it. If I was your wife, I would have none of it. I would not accept the false belief that your sin is no different than others. And I would expect you to treat it with the full-weight of understanding and repentance such a sin would warrant and no less.

And for me (because I am Mormon), that would entail going to the bishop, confessing your sin---allowing the full weight of your sin to be decided upon by those in authority by God to judge---to make full amends to all---and then a full return to temple activity. Only when you had recommitted to going to the temple faithfully would I know with ***urance that you have taken seriously your sin and done all you can to never commit it again.

Do you know who you left out of your repentance process? JESUS! You did see how I dealt with this sin I am not even sure where I entered it.. I showed the LDS 8 points of repentance and how I have met every step.. NOT ONE DID I NEGLECT.. Only I went a step further.. I confessed this to everyone in my church.. There were a few like you that judged me severely. I was my own harshest judge.. Even my Pastor told me that repentance to God means I had to trust Him to do what He promised to do.. And that as I confessed my sin He was faithful and just to forgive my sin and cleanse me of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9)..

You are right about believing different that I do about the severity of sin.. I don't believe that adultery is as trivial as lying I believe that lying is as serious as adultery.. Instead of making up my own rules I have believed God.. He is the One through the Apostle James that tells us that if we were to keep His own Law except for one point (He doesn't tell us that this point had to be anything special) we become guilty of all His Law (James 2:10).. Really if you don't want to believe that fine, that is what I expect. It's not hard to believe that a nonbeliever disbelieves the Bible..

It is funny though that this p***age is in the same context that the LDS I meet are are always throwing up as proof for works based salvation.. Yes it's in the Faith without works p***age.. But that part is true BECAUSE YOU AGREE WITH IT.. James 2 10 is false because YOU DISAGREE WITH IT. I believe that yes if a man say He has faith but has no works his faith is dead being alone.. But Julie I also believe God that if we live the whole law and fail in just one thing one time we are then guilty of the whole of God's Law.. Then I believe God in all His words He has preserved for us in His word the Bible.. You don't seem to believe Him at all.

Yes Julie this was a very serious thing I did.. No denying that.. I hurt many people with my actions.. I have confessed to them, to God, and to His Church.. There is nothing I can do to recompense anyone over this.. All I can do is accept the promises of God and go forward.. I spent over a year in absolute despair that I fell so far and so fast. But God used even that to show me my place before Him.

I don't deserve anything, I deserve hell because of my actions but His word, His promises tell me that God has made Him to be sin, He who knew no sin that I could be made the righteousness of God in Him (2 Corinthians 5:21).. He said come let us reason together, though your sins be as scarlet (AND MINE WAS) they will be white as wool (Isaiah 1:18).. I can believe you and fall back into guilty and mistrust of God, or I can rest in Him and trust what He has done for me and what He has promised.. You are a wonderful LDS woman. You love your church and your prophets.. I love God, trusting Him not even a good woman like you could ever replace that.. Membership in a church could never make up for what I did. Julie it was so serious it required the death of Jesus as testified by His blood.. Does that sound like I trivialize my sin? I feel the same way now about anything I do wrong.. And I ask the Holy Spirit to point out my failing now more than ever. I still sin way too much.. I have heard the LDS say oh you can say you believe in Jesus and then go sin all you want.. That is also backward. I believe in Jesus and I sin much more than I want.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE=James Banta;150147]Do you know who you left out of your repentance process? JESUS! That is a given--the term repentance qualifies that He is central to the process.



You did see how I dealt with this sin I am not even sure where I entered it.. I showed the LDS 8 points of repentance and how I have met every step.. NOT ONE DID I NEGLECT.. Only I went a step further.. I confessed this to everyone in my church.. There were a few like you that judged me severely. I was my own harshest judge.. Even my Pastor told me that repentance to God means I had to trust Him to do what He promised to do.. And that as I confessed my sin He was faithful and just to forgive my sin and cleanse me of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9).. Then why do you spend so much time on here acting as if your sin of adultery is no different than a white lie?


You are right about believing different that I do about the severity of sin.. I don't believe that adultery is as trivial as lying I believe that lying is as serious as adultery.. Instead of making up my own rules I have believed God.. He is the One through the Apostle James that tells us that if we were to keep His own Law except for one point (He doesn't tell us that this point had to be anything special) we become guilty of all His Law (James 2:10).. Really if you don't want to believe that fine, that is what I expect. It's not hard to believe that a nonbeliever disbelieves the Bible.. I did not say that lying is not a sin...and certainly lying is part of adultery. But equating a white lie with adultery to me is strange. And I do not read this part of the Bible as you do. I do not read that if we can't keep one part of the law, we should believe that we are unable to do any part of the law. In fact, I believe that as we show faith in Christ, we become perfected and our ability to keep the law becomes easier and easier.



It is funny though that this p***age is in the same context that the LDS I meet are are always throwing up as proof for works based salvation.. Yes it's in the Faith without works p***age.. But that part is true BECAUSE YOU AGREE WITH IT.. James 2 10 is false because YOU DISAGREE WITH IT. I believe that yes if a man say He has faith but has no works his faith is dead being alone.. But Julie I also believe God that if we live the whole law and fail in just one thing one time we are then guilty of the whole of God's Law.. Then I believe God in all His words He has preserved for us in His word the Bible.. You don't seem to believe Him at all. I think we believe this differently---because that is where I think baptism comes in....because we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory....but this does not, in anyway, make me think that adultery and a white lie are the same.



Yes Julie this was a very serious thing I did.. No denying that.. I hurt many people with my actions.. I have confessed to them, to God, and to His Church.. There is nothing I can do to recompense anyone over this.. All I can do is accept the promises of God and go forward.. I spent over a year in absolute despair that I fell so far and so fast. But God used even that to show me my place before Him. I am glad for you. But then why on earth do you go around acting like your adultery is trivial or in comparison to other things? It does seem you recognize that this sin was far more serious than a lot of them.


I don't deserve anything, I deserve hell because of my actions but His word, His promises tell me that God has made Him to be sin, He who knew no sin that I could be made the righteousness of God in Him (2 Corinthians 5:21).. He said come let us reason together, though your sins be as scarlet (AND MINE WAS) they will be white as wool (Isaiah 1:18).. I can believe you and fall back into guilty and mistrust of God, or I can rest in Him and trust what He has done for me and what He has promised.. You are a wonderful LDS woman. You love your church and your prophets.. I love God, trusting Him not even a good woman like you could ever replace that.. Membership in a church could never make up for what I did. Julie it was so serious it required the death of Jesus as testified by His blood.. Does that sound like I trivialize my sin? I feel the same way now about anything I do wrong.. And I ask the Holy Spirit to point out my failing now more than ever. I still sin way too much.. I have heard the LDS say oh you can say you believe in Jesus and then go sin all you want.. That is also backward. I believe in Jesus and I sin much more than I want.. IHS jim "made him to be sin"??? what do you mean by that? I don't want you to fall back into guilt and mistrust of God, but certainly, you need to stop spreading the false doctrine that one sin is the same as the other and that we cannot avoid these serious sins--you give excuse for people to go on and sin in serious ways and treat it as just another sin. I also love God and Christ. The prophets (those of today and those of yesterday testify of God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ...that is why they are prophets). What? The LDS say you can believe in Christ and then go on and sin....are they talking about you---because that is what you appear to be saying....believe in God and your sins don't matter as one sin is the same as the next. That seems to be the doctrine you spread. To me, this gives cause for those who follow your false doctrine to believe that adultery is not different than telling a white lie.

[BigJulie]

James, I have a question for you.

Let's say that you went into the kitchen and tempted by a plate of cookies, you ate the whole thing. Then, when your wife came in and asked if you ate the plate of cookies, you said no (out of shame and embarr***ment), this is my question(s):

Is this lie the same level of sin as committing adultery?
Would you be expected to confess this sin to your pastor?
Would you be expected to stand before your congregation and confess this sin?


For each question, can you please give a yes or no and a why or why not?

[Billyray]

Is this lie the same level of sin as committing adultery?


Are some sins Ok whereas others are not.

[BigJulie]

Are some sins Ok whereas others are not.

Some sins require a deeper process of repentance because they are more serious in nature as James acknowledged---his pastor made him confess to the whole church. Would this have occurred if he had lied about eating a plate of cookies?

Unless, of course, I am wrong and the pastor would ask James to do that over a lie to his wife over eating a plate of cookies. James, would he/she have you do that?

[Billyray]

Some sins require a "deeper process of repentance" because they are more serious in nature as James acknowledged---
What exactly do you mean when you say a "deeper process of repentance"?

1. What is the exact "Process of repentance" for lying?

2. What is the exact "Process of repentance" for adultery?

[BigJulie]

What exactly do you mean when you say a "deeper process of repentance"?

1. What is the exact "Process of repentance" for lying?

2. What is the exact "Process of repentance" for adultery?

We need to ask James. I asked him if he would have to confess his eating the plate of cookies to the congregation as he did with his adultery (as was directed by his pastor).

In the past, James has said that every sin (including a lie such as eating the cookies and lying about it) has the same level of serious and when I said that if I was his wife and he acted like a white lie was the same as committing adultery, I personally would find that offensive and abusive (if I was his wife.)

He then told me that he went through 8 steps to repent, including confessing to his whole congregation (as asked to by his pastor) for his sin of adultery. I asked him if he would be required to do the same thing for eating a plate of cookies and then telling his wife he didn't.

I am not sure why you have inserted yourself into this conversation--other than maybe you don't think James can answer these simple questions.

But, I will ask you---do you think you would need to confess eating a plate of cookies and telling your wife you didn't to your whole congregation? Why would James' pastor ask him to do that for his adultery?

[James Banta]

I don't have to do it. What I can show you is that God does build temples for His people and they are a covenant people.

There is no evidence anywhere that a Temple as the LDS builds temples has ever been constructed in the Christian Era.. There have been buildings that have been called temples but they have been nothing more than Church buildings.. But the Bible teaches that the Christian believer is the Temple of God.

1 Corinthians 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Other than the heart of the believer there are no Christian Temples.. God tells us that many false prophets will present themselves with signs and wonders, and if they say that God is in the desert or their inner rooms we are not to believe them (Matthew 24:24-26).. We must be convinced that His word is the truth and God dwells within the believer..

If you have any Biblical scripture that shows different I would like to see it. Saying you can show that God would build temples for His people is one things showing that temples were ever built in the Christian era is a whole different story.. So please show this Biblical evidence that anything other than the Christian themselves are the temple of God.. IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

1 Corinthians 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
It goes to show some temples are more beautiful than others lol.

[BigJulie]

There is no evidence anywhere that a Temple as the LDS builds temples has ever been constructed in the Christian Era.. There have been buildings that have been called temples but they have been nothing more than Church buildings.. But the Bible teaches that the Christian believer is the Temple of God.

1 Corinthians 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Other than the heart of the believer there are no Christian Temples.. God tells us that many false prophets will present themselves with signs and wonders, and if they say that God is in the desert or their inner rooms we are not to believe them (Matthew 24:24-26).. We must be convinced that His word is the truth and God dwells within the believer..

If you have any Biblical scripture that shows different I would like to see it. Saying you can show that God would build temples for His people is one things showing that temples were ever built in the Christian era is a whole different story.. So please show this Biblical evidence that anything other than the Christian themselves are the temple of God.. IHS jim

Yes, many false prophets will present themselves with signs and wonders. But God tells us that we can tell the difference between truth and error as we learn to recognize the Spirit of God. As far as the temple---the evidence is in the experiencing and living it and witnessing the truth of it. God has promised to gather his people. His work is not finished and as such, His instruction is not finished. Unlike you, I do not believe in a closed cannon and that God no longer directs His people.

That said, you did not answer my question: (Are you avoiding it?)

Would your pastor require you to confess to the congregation if you told your wife you did not eat a plate of cookies when you did?

[neverending]

We need to ask James. I asked him if he would have to confess his eating the plate of cookies to the congregation as he did with his adultery (as was directed by his pastor).

In the past, James has said that every sin (including a lie such as eating the cookies and lying about it) has the same level of serious and when I said that if I was his wife and he acted like a white lie was the same as committing adultery, I personally would find that offensive and abusive (if I was his wife.)

He then told me that he went through 8 steps to repent, including confessing to his whole congregation (as asked to by his pastor) for his sin of adultery. I asked him if he would be required to do the same thing for eating a plate of cookies and then telling his wife he didn't.

I am not sure why you have inserted yourself into this conversation--other than maybe you don't think James can answer these simple questions.

But, I will ask you---do you think you would need to confess eating a plate of cookies and telling your wife you didn't to your whole congregation? Why would James' pastor ask him to do that for his adultery?

ATTENTION!!! I am getting ****ed off with all the comments about what my husband did over 14 years ago!! It is enough that I have forgiven him as well as God. NOW ALL YOU WOULD BE JUDGES, SHUT UP! YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO INTERFER IN OUR MARRIAGE NOR TO SIT IN JUDGMENT! CONTINUING WITH YOUR COMMENTS IS CRUEL, HATEFUL AND IF YOU WISH TO SLING MUG, I AM VERY GOOD AND SLINGING IT BACK! WANT TO BRING ON THE REALLY NASTY THINGS OF MORMONISM? I AM MORE THEN WILLING. I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO BE CIVIL IN MY COMMENTS BUT THIS HAS GONE TO FAR!!

[neverending]

i am waiting for your proof about isaiah. I am not familiar with anything he said concerning temple covenants. Is this more of your lds falsehoods that make you feel all warm and fuzzy? You seem to have opened a can of worms with your lastest comment and bringing up a hurtful time within my marriage. You and all your counterparts enjoy rubbing salt into a wound? You make me sick all of you!! The gloves have now come off and everything is fair game!

[RealFakeHair]

ATTENTION!!! I am getting ****ed off with all the comments about what my husband did over 14 years ago!! It is enough that I have forgiven him as well as God. NOW ALL YOU WOULD BE JUDGES, SHUT UP! YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO INTERFER IN OUR MARRIAGE NOR TO SIT IN JUDGMENT! CONTINUING WITH YOUR COMMENTS IS CRUEL, HATEFUL AND IF YOU WISH TO SLING MUG, I AM VERY GOOD AND SLINGING IT BACK! WANT TO BRING ON THE REALLY NASTY THINGS OF MORMONISM? I AM MORE THEN WILLING. I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO BE CIVIL IN MY COMMENTS BUT THIS HAS GONE TO FAR!!

I agree with you 100%. There is something to say about a group that can't let go. I have found this to be a part of the LDSinc. TBM conscience. Saddy, they don't know anything about the GRACE of God and his forgiveness. Our sins are thrown into the bottom of the sea of forgetfulness.
I think if God has forgetten it so should we.

[neverending]

Shut up already! You go about with your eyes closed, believing anything that your false prophet tells you. If he told all members to jump off a cliff, would you? If he told everyone there was no hope and that all members were to go to their Ward Houses to drink poisoned Kool-Aid, would you follow blindly? Come down off your high horse Julie, you are not perfect but going about with false security, believing in a false Christ and a false god! It is YOU who needs to repent for worshipping false gods for to continue with your false beliefs you have condemned yourself to the Lake of Fire, your name is NOT written in God's Book of Life. There will be much begging, crying and pleading come the day of Judgment but you will be alone facing God and all the evil's you've done. Time to do some serious thinking Julie. You participate in a ritual that was manmade. The temple is a hoax taken from the Masons. Why would God want His people to participate in something so vile? Why is the ceremony almost word for word the same as the Masons? Use your brain that the good Lord gave you and stop believing in fairy tales and falsehoods. Why wasn't Solomon's Temple used for performing marriages if it was so important? If you know anything of the Bible, you know that the temple was used for animal sacrifices and nothing more! Why didn't Jesus Christ teach temple marriage if it was so important for one's salvation and your churches exaltation? I would think he would have spoken on this subject but he never did. Your religion is another gospel which Paul warned us about.....Gal. 1:8-9. It was told to us twice through Paul. Get out your Bible, dust it off and read Galatians. If J. Smith really saw an angel who gave him the instructions to start the Mormon Church then what Paul told us is the truth and you have been taught and preached another gospel your entire life.

[James Banta]

[BigJulie;150148][QUOTE] That is a given--the term repentance qualifies that He is central to the process.

Oh I see , So when you pray you have no need to address your pray to the Father or confirm your words in the name of Jesus. After all that's a given?


Then why do you spend so much time on here acting as if your sin of adultery is no different than a white lie?

As I said to us it is much different.. To God this is not any different than any other rebellion.. That is what we learn in James 2:10.. Seems you still refuse to believe Him. Little white lie are still lies and what do we call a persona that lie? A liar right? What does your own BofM teach as the final judgement of a liar? Doesn't it teach that they will be thrust down to hell (2 Nephi 9:34)? How is that different from the way God will punish the adulterer, or *****monger as the KJV puts it?

Rev 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and *****mongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.



I did not say that lying is not a sin...and certainly lying is part of adultery. But equating a white lie with adultery to me is strange. And I do not read this part of the Bible as you do. I do not read that if we can't keep one part of the law, we should believe that we are unable to do any part of the law. In fact, I believe that as we show faith in Christ, we become perfected and our ability to keep the law becomes easier and easier.

What is then the difference before God in lying or adultery both make a person unrighteous before a Holy God.. All sin is serious to He tell us through Paul that "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?" (1 Cor 6:9)..


I think we believe this differently---because that is where I think baptism comes in....because we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory....but this does not, in anyway, make me think that adultery and a white lie are the same.

No one except God does. Even our government see degrees of sin.. Theft by deception is less of a crime than armed robbery. The punishment is also not equal. But to God sin is sin.. You don't have to think like God to believe Him.. He says that if we offend the Law in one point we are guilty of all.. Like it or not that is His way.. All your denials can't change it.. So it's up to you will you believe God or will you demand that He is wrong and you know better? Did you read the verse? If you did and you believe that the Bible is the word of God how can you continue to contend against Him?



I am glad for you. But then why on earth do you go around acting like your adultery is trivial or in comparison to other things? It does seem you recognize that this sin was far more serious than a lot of them.

Trivial? It almost destroyed me.. I nearly lost everything in my life that matters.. I nearly lost my faith.. If that is trivial then I don't understand the meaning of that word.. If it weren't for Jesus I see my sin as being soul destroying. Does that change the truth that God saw it as sin that must be punished and you have already stated what the wages of sin is.. One sin or a millions sins, murder, adultery, or even disbelief. According to the Bible God sees sin to be sin it must be punished with death..


"made him to be sin"??? what do you mean by that?

I mean just what the Bible teaches.. Our difference here don't seem to be about believing God through His word the Bible.. I believe Him you seem to me doubting Him.. This is what I mean:

2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Jesus took all our sin onto Himself.. Clear so far? And then offered the righteousness of God to all who would accept it.. That is all I mean.. Because the only command we must live is to be perfect as the Father in heaven is perfect.. Only in being made the righteousness of God by Jesus taking our sin from us can we be perfect as He is perfect.. Anything short of that and we will see only judgment in the Lake of Fire.. I believe that since righteousness is the requirement for everlasting life and that is had only through believing on Jesus (John 3:16)m being made his righteousness is a very big deal.. And even if our sins be as scarlet He can and will make them white as wool to all that trust Him.. Trusting Him includes trusting the word He preserved for us.. Therefore "whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." That is God's word and the truth.. Your denials don't change the truth of God's word..



I don't want you to fall back into guilt and mistrust of God, but certainly, you need to stop spreading the false doctrine that one sin is the same as the other and that we cannot avoid these serious sins--you give excuse for people to go on and sin in serious ways and treat it as just another sin. I also love God and Christ. The prophets (those of today and those of yesterday testify of God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ...that is why they are prophets). What? The LDS say you can believe in Christ and then go on and sin....are they talking about you---because that is what you appear to be saying....believe in God and your sins don't matter as one sin is the same as the next. That seems to be the doctrine you spread. To me, this gives cause for those who follow your false doctrine to believe that adultery is not different than telling a white lie.

You actually call the word of God, false doctrine.. That is much more serious in my eyes than mere adultery. Unless you stop calling God a liar you will die in that sin and He will give you the judgment of spiritual death.. Yes saying I believe and am saved does make the LDS believe is giving myself license to sin.. But I tell you instead I tell you if I only sinned all I want I would be 100% sinless.. A Christian doesn't WANT to sin at all.. My adultery was not excused! It was forgiven.. The consequences were not dismissed either.. There were tears, eviction, love and trust lost.. It was hell on earth and I deserved every second of that torment plus more. I count your savage judgment as the continuation of that punishment.. That doesn't change the fact that I trust God through His promises that I have been made whole again.. I am now again white as wool. I have said all sin is deadly.. It is all going to be punished with eternal spiritual death.. It doesn't matter how bad you believe the sin is it is all deadly serious to God.. You tell me that you love God, but your actions here betray that.. You want to believe the Bible as far as you agree with it but if something is taught there you don't like, or you don't agree with then it is God that wrong not you, right? And that is what you call loving God.. I for one will never show Him my love by calling him wrong or saying that He lies.. And yet you deny that it's true that you deny that it os God's word that:

James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Those in love with God believe Him.. They obey Him, and when they fail they confess the failure make it right as possible. Then trust Him that they are forgiven (1 John 1:9).. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE]

Oh I see , So when you pray you have no need to address your pray to the Father or confirm your words in the name of Jesus. After all that's a given?



As I said to us it is much different.. To God this is not any different than any other rebellion.. That is what we learn in James 2:10.. Seems you still refuse to believe Him. Little white lie are still lies and what do we call a persona that lie? A liar right? What does your own BofM teach as the final judgement of a liar? Doesn't it teach that they will be thrust down to hell (2 Nephi 9:34)? How is that different from the way God will punish the adulterer, or *****monger as the KJV puts it?

[B]Rev 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and *****mongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.




What is then the difference before God in lying or adultery both make a person unrighteous before a Holy God.. All sin is serious to He tell us through Paul that "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?" (1 Cor 6:9)..



No one except God does. Even our government see degrees of sin.. Theft by deception is less of a crime than armed robbery. The punishment is also not equal. But to God sin is sin.. You don't have to think like God to believe Him.. He says that if we offend the Law in one point we are guilty of all.. Like it or not that is His way.. All your denials can't change it.. So it's up to you will you believe God or will you demand that He is wrong and you know better? Did you read the verse? If you did and you believe that the Bible is the word of God how can you continue to contend against Him?




Trivial? It almost destroyed me.. I nearly lost everything in my life that matters.. I nearly lost my faith.. If that is trivial then I don't understand the meaning of that word.. If it weren't for Jesus I see my sin as being soul destroying. Does that change the truth that God saw it as sin that must be punished and you have already stated what the wages of sin is.. One sin or a millions sins, murder, adultery, or even disbelief. According to the Bible God sees sin to be sin it must be punished with death..



I mean just what the Bible teaches.. Our difference here don't seem to be about believing God through His word the Bible.. I believe Him you seem to me doubting Him.. This is what I mean:

2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Jesus took all our sin onto Himself.. Clear so far? And then offered the righteousness of God to all who would accept it.. That is all I mean.. Because the only command we must live is to be perfect as the Father in heaven is perfect.. Only in being made the righteousness of God by Jesus taking our sin from us can we be perfect as He is perfect.. Anything short of that and we will see only judgment in the Lake of Fire.. I believe that since righteousness is the requirement for everlasting life and that is had only through believing on Jesus (John 3:16)m being made his righteousness is a very big deal.. And even if our sins be as scarlet He can and will make them white as wool to all that trust Him.. Trusting Him includes trusting the word He preserved for us.. Therefore "whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." That is God's word and the truth.. Your denials don't change the truth of God's word..




You actually call the word of God, false doctrine.. That is much more serious in my eyes than mere adultery. Unless you stop calling God a liar you will die in that sin and He will give you the judgment of spiritual death.. Yes saying I believe and am saved does make the LDS believe is giving myself license to sin.. But I tell you instead I tell you if I only sinned all I want I would be 100% sinless.. A Christian doesn't WANT to sin at all.. My adultery was not excused! It was forgiven.. The consequences were not dismissed either.. There were tears, eviction, love and trust lost.. It was hell on earth and I deserved every second of that torment plus more. I count your savage judgment as the continuation of that punishment.. That doesn't change the fact that I trust God through His promises that I have been made whole again.. I am now again white as wool. I have said all sin is deadly.. It is all going to be punished with eternal spiritual death.. It doesn't matter how bad you believe the sin is it is all deadly serious to God.. You tell me that you love God, but your actions here betray that.. You want to believe the Bible as far as you agree with it but if something is taught there you don't like, or you don't agree with then it is God that wrong not you, right? And that is what you call loving God.. I for one will never show Him my love by calling him wrong or saying that He lies.. And yet you deny that it's true that you deny that it os God's word that:

James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Those in love with God believe Him.. They obey Him, and when they fail they confess the failure make it right as possible. Then trust Him that they are forgiven (1 John 1:9).. IHS jim
James, I must admit, I somewhat skimmed through this. I was searching for your answer as to whether or not your pastor would make your confess to your congregation regarding lying about eating a plate of cookies and why or why not?

You do not seem to have answered this question. Sorry---the rest of this discussion has already been had. You ***ured me that you did take your adultery serious and then had to confess it to your congregation. I understand that you believe that God sees all sins as equal or the same. I am wondering why your pastor would do this (if in fact your sin of adultery is the same as eating a plate of cookies and then lying about it.)

[BigJulie]

ATTENTION!!! I am getting ****ed off with all the comments about what my husband did over 14 years ago!! It is enough that I have forgiven him as well as God. NOW ALL YOU WOULD BE JUDGES, SHUT UP! YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO INTERFER IN OUR MARRIAGE NOR TO SIT IN JUDGMENT! CONTINUING WITH YOUR COMMENTS IS CRUEL, HATEFUL AND IF YOU WISH TO SLING MUG, I AM VERY GOOD AND SLINGING IT BACK! WANT TO BRING ON THE REALLY NASTY THINGS OF MORMONISM? I AM MORE THEN WILLING. I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO BE CIVIL IN MY COMMENTS BUT THIS HAS GONE TO FAR!!


I do not care about what your husband did over 14 years ago. I am trying to understand how he sees this sin. I have no judgment for him on this, really. I am trying more to understand how he (James) sees it.

I have heard him discuss over and over that all sins are the same, that if we have broken any part of the law, we have broken all of it. That we are all filthy rags. I told him that if my husband committed adultery and then tried to p*** it off as I am just as bad as he is and in the same boat because I had lied about (for example) eating a plate of cookies, I would be ticked.

He then went on to explain the steps he took to repent and that he did take it seriously. (This is good for him).

But now I am trying to understand if the pastor would treat the sin of lying about eating a plate of cookies the same as adultery. I am trying to understand how James understands this because to me, it appears on one hand he acknowledges is as serious and then on the other hand tries to excuse his behavior by making it no different than any other sin in the eyes of God. Well, if it is no different then any other sin--why the confession to the whole congregation---unless we have to do that for EVERY sin? Why would the pastor treat it differently if God doesn't see it differently?

[BigJulie]

I agree with you 100%. There is something to say about a group that can't let go. I have found this to be a part of the LDSinc. TBM conscience. Saddy, they don't know anything about the GRACE of God and his forgiveness. Our sins are thrown into the bottom of the sea of forgetfulness.
I think if God has forgetten it so should we.

No, I have always believed and have stated I believe that James can be forgiven. I also said, that if my husband was going around stating that adultery was no different from any other sin (in the eyes of God), I would not be happy.

But then James explained that this sin was treated differently and that he did take the steps of repentance which (to me) seem more than one would do for telling a white lie.

Now I am asking him to explain. I could care less about the adultery. James is not my husband. I care more to understand to know how he reconciles what he says with what he actually did.

[James Banta]

[BigJulie;150173]Yes, many false prophets will present themselves with signs and wonders. But God tells us that we can tell the difference between truth and error as we learn to recognize the Spirit of God. As far as the temple---the evidence is in the experiencing and living it and witnessing the truth of it. God has promised to gather his people. His work is not finished and as such, His instruction is not finished. Unlike you, I do not believe in a closed cannon and that God no longer directs His people.

That said, you did not answer my question: (Are you avoiding it?)

Who said that I deny that God can give us His word of truth again? he is God , He can and does operate according to His will.. What God will not do is teach contrary to the word He has already given.. If He through the Savior says that He is Spirit then HE IS SPIRIT. If He teaches that a spirit doesn't have flesh and bone like the resurrection body of the Lord than a spirit has no flesh or bone.. He He tells us that whosoever believe in Him HAS everlasting life then who ever believes HAS EVERLASTING LIFE.. If He says that whose who keep the whole Law except one point is guilty of the whole law then those are guilty of the whole law.. These things will not change.. Any other word God therefore gives to us WILL agree with these things. He will never come to us and tell us that there are three God.. He has already told us that He in ONE LORD.. These prophet that come attempting to deceive the Church and even try to change God's word to "correct" the changes mere men installed in it.. Such as they are the false prophets and lying teachers..


Would your pastor require you to confess to the congregation if you told your wife you did not eat a plate of cookies when you did?

I did answer that questions.. I would confess it to my wife since it is just the two of us here. How would I lie about such a thing? Then by her direction end up making res***ution by baking her some cookies :). If eating cookies were a sin then I would confess it to God as such.. See no one asked me to confess to my Pastor or to the church about the non sin of eating cookies.. I did that in the case of my sin because I thought it would help me through my repentance.. No where in the scripture is doing that commanded.. I used them as a crutch to help me I told them that they were all a huge help in my realization that God had forgiven me.. Sounds a bit selfish but most of them helped a lot, just in their prayers for me.. Boy if eating cookies were a sin I would be is deep trouble.. I LOVE COOKIES :) My pastor would never ask me to confess eating cookies but I will willing tell anyone that my wife's cookies are the BEST and I will eat them every chance I get.. IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

No, I have always believed and have stated I believe that James can be forgiven. I also said, that if my husband was going around stating that adultery was no different from any other sin (in the eyes of God), I would not be happy.

But then James explained that this sin was treated differently and that he did take the steps of repentance which (to me) seem more than one would do for telling a white lie.

Now I am asking him to explain. I could care less about the adultery. James is not my husband. I care more to understand to know how he reconciles what he says with what he actually did.

It's not abou you or me being happy, it's whether God of the Holy Bible looks upon sin of adultery any different than the sin of a little white lie. The answer is no.
Let me tell you how little God of the Holy Bible looked upon adultery in the Old Testament. Did you know if a married man had sex with an unmarried woman there was no punishment for the act.

[BigJulie]

It's not abou you or me being happy, it's whether God of the Holy Bible looks upon sin of adultery any different than the sin of a little white lie. The answer is no.
Let me tell you how little God of the Holy Bible looked upon adultery in the Old Testament. Did you know if a married man had sex with an unmarried woman there was no punishment for the act.

What about if a married man had sex with a married woman? (The real definition of adultery in the old testament)--then what happened?

Yes, I understand it is not about what makes me happy or what makes you happy. I am curious as to WHY, if you believe that adultery is no different from the little sin of a white lie---why did James confess his adultery to the whole congregation? Especially in light of what you believe. That is my question no one seems to want to answer.

[BigJulie]

Who said that I deny that God can give us His word of truth again? he is God , He can and does operate according to His will.. What God will not do is teach contrary to the word He has already given.. If He through the Savior says that He is Spirit then HE IS SPIRIT. If He teaches that a spirit doesn't have flesh and bone like the resurrection body of the Lord than a spirit has no flesh or bone.. He He tells us that whosoever believe in Him HAS everlasting life then who ever believes HAS EVERLASTING LIFE.. If He says that whose who keep the whole Law except one point is guilty of the whole law then those are guilty of the whole law.. These things will not change.. Any other word God therefore gives to us WILL agree with these things. He will never come to us and tell us that there are three God.. He has already told us that He in ONE LORD.. These prophet that come attempting to deceive the Church and even try to change God's word to "correct" the changes mere men installed in it.. Such as they are the false prophets and lying teachers..



I did answer that questions.. I would confess it to my wife since it is just the two of us here. How would I lie about such a thing? Then by her direction end up making res***ution by baking her some cookies :). If eating cookies were a sin then I would confess it to God as such.. See no one asked me to confess to my Pastor or to the church about the non sin of eating cookies.. I did that in the case of my sin because I thought it would help me through my repentance.. No where in the scripture is doing that commanded.. I used them as a crutch to help me I told them that they were all a huge help in my realization that God had forgiven me.. Sounds a bit selfish but most of them helped a lot, just in their prayers for me.. Boy if eating cookies were a sin I would be is deep trouble.. I LOVE COOKIES :) My pastor would never ask me to confess eating cookies but I will willing tell anyone that my wife's cookies are the BEST and I will eat them every chance I get.. IHS jim

Umm, it wasn't the eating of the cookies--it was the lying about it, I asked you about. So, would you confess the lie to your pastor? Why did you think confessing to the congregation would help you repent? Would you feel the same need for help if you lied to your wife about eating the cookies? Why or why not?

[Apologette]

Shut up already! You go about with your eyes closed, believing anything that your false prophet tells you. If he told all members to jump off a cliff, would you? If he told everyone there was no hope and that all members were to go to their Ward Houses to drink poisoned Kool-Aid, would you follow blindly? Come down off your high horse Julie, you are not perfect but going about with false security, believing in a false Christ and a false god! It is YOU who needs to repent for worshipping false gods for to continue with your false beliefs you have condemned yourself to the Lake of Fire, your name is NOT written in God's Book of Life. There will be much begging, crying and pleading come the day of Judgment but you will be alone facing God and all the evil's you've done. Time to do some serious thinking Julie. You participate in a ritual that was manmade. The temple is a hoax taken from the Masons. Why would God want His people to participate in something so vile? Why is the ceremony almost word for word the same as the Masons? Use your brain that the good Lord gave you and stop believing in fairy tales and falsehoods. Why wasn't Solomon's Temple used for performing marriages if it was so important? If you know anything of the Bible, you know that the temple was used for animal sacrifices and nothing more! Why didn't Jesus Christ teach temple marriage if it was so important for one's salvation and your churches exaltation? I would think he would have spoken on this subject but he never did. Your religion is another gospel which Paul warned us about.....Gal. 1:8-9. It was told to us twice through Paul. Get out your Bible, dust it off and read Galatians. If J. Smith really saw an angel who gave him the instructions to start the Mormon Church then what Paul told us is the truth and you have been taught and preached another gospel your entire life.

I think they would jump off of a cliff! Just like the Peoples Temple folks drank toxic drinks and died in the jungle, bloated by the sun! Cults are destructive.

[BigJulie]

I think they would jump off of a cliff! Just like the Peoples Temple folks drank toxic drinks and died in the jungle, bloated by the sun! Cults are destructive.

As far as I know--Mormons are in to jello, not koolaid. ;)

I don't know of any Mormon who has done anything like the Jim Jones group.

But I am not the one here telling people they should jump off a cliff. *sigh*

[James Banta]

No, I have always believed and have stated I believe that James can be forgiven. I also said, that if my husband was going around stating that adultery was no different from any other sin (in the eyes of God), I would not be happy.

But then James explained that this sin was treated differently and that he did take the steps of repentance which (to me) seem more than one would do for telling a white lie.

Now I am asking him to explain. I could care less about the adultery. James is not my husband. I care more to understand to know how he reconciles what he says with what he actually did.

I don't even try to hide my sin or to say that it never existed.. It is there to remind me of the great cost of sinning that way again.. I will not minimize it. It is the reason Jesus went to the cross and died.. YOU DON'T BELIEVE GOD.. WHY IS IT THAT YOU TURN AWAY FROM TRUTH. Right there is the Bible is the p***age that tells us the truth of sin.. I didn't make it up. Whoever follows God 100% except in one point is guilty of not following Him at all.. Either believe the Bible or admit that you don't. It is already clear to the Christians here that mormons DON'T BELIEVE THE WORD OF GOD..

Julie is I sinned in again lying to my wife. i would have to see that as sin.. No I wouldn't tell the Pastor or the church.. I would confess it to God and stand up to what ever consequences came my way.. That is what the Bible calls me to do.. Confessing to men or to the Church is not a requirement. I think I have explained why I took that step anyway.. It wasn't to gain forgiveness, it was to help ME in my realization that I had received the forgiveness of God.. Did you here that this time.. I can say it a few more times if it will help you understand.. IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

What about if a married man had sex with a married woman? (The real definition of adultery in the old testament)--then what happened?

Yes, I understand it is not about what makes me happy or what makes you happy. I am curious as to WHY, if you believe that adultery is no different from the little sin of a white lie---why did James confess his adultery to the whole congregation? Especially in light of what you believe. That is my question no one seems to want to answer.

It is not what I would have done, but it was James choice, there is nothing right or wrong about his decision.

Odd thing about a married man having sex with a married woman that isn't his wife. The woman gets the worst of the punishment.

[BigJulie]

I don't even try to hide my sin or to say that it never existed.. It is there to remind me of the great cost of sinning that way again.. I will not minimize it. It is the reason Jesus went to the cross and died.. YOU DON'T BELIEVE GOD.. WHY IS IT THAT YOU TURN AWAY FROM TRUTH. Right there is the Bible is the p***age that tells us the truth of sin.. I didn't make it up. Whoever follows God 100% except in one point is guilty of not following Him at all.. Either believe the Bible or admit that you don't. It is already clear to the Christians here that mormons DON'T BELIEVE THE WORD OF GOD..

Julie is I sinned in again lying to my wife. i would have to see that as sin.. No I wouldn't tell the Pastor or the church.. I would confess it to God and stand up to what ever consequences came my way.. That is what the Bible calls me to do.. Confessing to men or to the Church is not a requirement. I think I have explained why I took that step anyway.. It wasn't to gain forgiveness, it was to help ME in my realization that I had received the forgiveness of God.. Did you here that this time.. I can say it a few more times if it will help you understand.. IHS jim

James, you still are not making sense to me. WHY would you choose to confess your sins to the congregation for adultery, but not for a lie about the cookies if both are a serious offense to God. Why would confessing the one help you realize you had received forgiveness? If both sins are of equal weight--wouldn't you do this for ALL your sins, every time you sin?

I have heard what you said, it just does not make sense to me in light of what you teach on this site.

For example, if I said eating an apple was exactly the same to God as eating an orange---why would I feel the need to do more in the repentance process if I ate an apple versus eating an orange. I mean, I perfectly well see that adultery is a more serious sin and would require doing more. But because YOU state it is no different, I am curious why you felt in your heart YOU needed to do more to realize God's forgiveness?

I mean, why did you let the feelings of your heart dictate your actions, rather than what the scriptures taught you regarding this sin?

[James Banta]

Umm, it wasn't the eating of the cookies--it was the lying about it, I asked you about. So, would you confess the lie to your pastor? Why did you think confessing to the congregation would help you repent? Would you feel the same need for help if you lied to your wife about eating the cookies? Why or why not?

I don't know, eating the cookies is worse for me.. :) Still If I ever lie to her again I will confess it to her.. The whole Church or even just the Pastor doesn't need to be involved.. No where in the scripture is anyone commanded to confess to any man or group of people.. I did that to help me in my repentance.. Most of them held me up in prayer and that helped a lot.. It was hard admitting my sin to all but It helped me.. I could have kept it between me AND GOD AND GAINED THE SAME FORGIVENESS. BUT AT THAT TIME I HAD SUNK SO LOW IN MY FAITH THAT I NEEDED THEIR TO SHORE ME UP.. You seem to still believe that this was a Biblical requirement for forgiveness.. IT WAS NOT.. the confession was owed to God it was not owed to the church or the Pastor.. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

Julie, you make a good debater. One reason is your good use of ****ogies.

[BigJulie]

I don't know, eating the cookies is worse for me.. :) Still If I ever lie to her again I will confess it to her.. The whole Church or even just the Pastor doesn't need to be involved.. No where in the scripture is anyone commanded to confess to any man or group of people.. I did that to help me in my repentance.. Most of them held me up in prayer and that helped a lot.. It was hard admitting my sin to all but It helped me.. I could have kept it between me AND GOD AND GAINED THE SAME FORGIVENESS. BUT AT THAT TIME I HAD SUNK SO LOW IN MY FAITH THAT I NEEDED THEIR TO SHORE ME UP.. You seem to still believe that this was a Biblical requirement for forgiveness.. IT WAS NOT.. the confession was owed to God it was not owed to the church or the Pastor.. IHS jim

I am not saying it was a Biblical requirement AT ALL. I am wondering why you felt the need to confess especially in light of what you state you believe---that the sin of lying is no different than the sin of adultery? Why did this cause you to sink so low if it is the same as other sins? Why did you need the prayers of others to help with this sin and not other sins you have committed?

[BigJulie]

Julie, you make a good debater. One reason is your good use of ****ogies.

Actually, when we speak of the scriptures---I find that they come to life when we apply them to real life experiences---such as with James and his confessions. James is a good guy. I think having someone from the outside ask him about how he reconciles his actions with what he states he believes, he can better understand what he believes.

[neverending]

Actually, when we speak of the scriptures---I find that they come to life when we apply them to real life experiences---such as with James and his confessions. James is a good guy. I think having someone from the outside ask him about how he reconciles his actions with what he states he believes, he can better understand what he believes.

Julie, do you understand English, or are you the typical Mormon that I've dealt with my entire life who sits in judgment of others and has such a high opinion of themselves? I take the later. I will kindly ask that you STOP using James in your comments and MOVE ON.....moooooove on!! Find some other person to be your whipping boy or woman so you can get your jollies.

[neverending]

Her ****ogies are a joke!

[neverending]

Again, this is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS! You don't or won't see that ALL sin is the same to God!! A white lie is a lie, so that makes a person a liar! There is but one sin that God will not forgive and that is blaspheming the Holy Spirit. SO, get you BIG NOSE out of our family! If not, I am willing to contact Jill and tell her about all these cruel comments and the emotional distress it is causing me, (I already suffer with anxiety) and will sue you and everyone else who has made cruel, hurtful comments. I am not kidding.

[James Banta]

[BigJulie;150200]James, you still are not making sense to me. WHY would you choose to confess your sins to the congregation for adultery, but not for a lie about the cookies if both are a serious offense to God. Why would confessing the one help you realize you had received forgiveness? If both sins are of equal weight--wouldn't you do this for ALL your sins, every time you sin?

If again I walk way so far from God that my faith is running on empty I will reach out to the Church.. But If I sin and still have a firm grasp on my faith I will allow Jesus to handle it and not ask anyone else to help support me with their prayers in the matter.. That is the ONLY reason I confessed to them.. There is np Biblical reason for their involvement beyond that..


I have heard what you said, it just does not make sense to me in light of what you teach on this site.

For example, if I said eating an apple was exactly the same to God as eating an orange---why would I feel the need to do more in the repentance process if I ate an apple versus eating an orange. I mean, I perfectly well see that adultery is a more serious sin and would require doing more. But because YOU state it is no different, I am curious why you felt in your heart YOU needed to do more to realize God's forgiveness?

I mean, why did you let the feelings of your heart dictate your actions, rather than what the scriptures taught you regarding this sin?

I am sorry Julie but you bring up cookies, apple, and oranges and that makes no sense to me.. Eating those things are not sin and God doesn't care whether I eat apples or oranges.. He has provided both for me to eat and doing so is within His perfect will for my life.. The question is how you feel about one sin being more serious than another, of course you do you aren't God.. The question is what did God say about it in His word.. I have showed that to you what He said so you are no longer with me but you are arguing with Him in what He has taught us in His word. All your arguments will not change His word no matter how strongly you feel that He is wrong and you are right..

Did it seem to me that adultery is fair worse a sin than lying, Sure it did.. I had to get that idea out of my heart. Because to God all sin is one thing and that is rebellion. To Him there is no such thing as a small sin.. They are all HUGE.. So is one sin more serious to God than another? He says it is NOT.. That if you break any of His laws you are just as guilty before Him as you would be if you broke them all..

You should be able to see this on the sermon on the mount.. Anger without just cause is the same as murder. Lust as adultery. Don't you remember those teachings.. Get over it Julie you have lost your argument to God as He tell you that you break the whole law by offending against Him at all.. IHS jim

[neverending]

And here we are again. Where do you come up with any idea of the circumstances? You are making things up as you go along, just as Joseph Smith did, very well done!! BTW, what does James have to do with the subject of this thread??? YOU and all the others are so off topic its not funny.

[James Banta]

[QUOTE=James Banta;150181]
James, I must admit, I somewhat skimmed through this. I was searching for your answer as to whether or not your pastor would make your confess to your congregation regarding lying about eating a plate of cookies and why or why not?

You do not seem to have answered this question. Sorry---the rest of this discussion has already been had. You ***ured me that you did take your adultery serious and then had to confess it to your congregation. I understand that you believe that God sees all sins as equal or the same. I am wondering why your pastor would do this (if in fact your sin of adultery is the same as eating a plate of cookies and then lying about it.)

I won't answer this a third time go look in my postings for today it will help you find it..


Oh wait I just found it for you.. You had to see it you commented on it.. Here I added it so you would have to go looking.. What I believe you wanted to see it in bold and red..


I don't know, eating the cookies is worse for me.. Still If I ever lie to her again I will confess it to her.. The whole Church or even just the Pastor doesn't need to be involved.. No where in the scripture is anyone commanded to confess to any man or group of people.. I did that to help me in my repentance.. Most of them held me up in prayer and that helped a lot.. It was hard admitting my sin to all but It helped me.. I could have kept it between me AND GOD AND GAINED THE SAME FORGIVENESS. BUT AT THAT TIME I HAD SUNK SO LOW IN MY FAITH THAT I NEEDED THEIR TO SHORE ME UP.. You seem to still believe that this was a Biblical requirement for forgiveness.. IT WAS NOT.. the confession was owed to God it was not owed to the church or the Pastor.. IHS jim

[neverending]

This is none of your business!! SO SHUT UP ALREADY!! YOUR LIFE SO BORING THAT YOU WANT ALL THE JUICY DETAILS. I'D SUGGEST GETTING YOURSELF A GOOD ROMANCE NOVEL.

[Apologette]

I am not saying it was a Biblical requirement AT ALL. I am wondering why you felt the need to confess especially in light of what you state you believe---that the sin of lying is no different than the sin of adultery? Why did this cause you to sink so low if it is the same as other sins? Why did you need the prayers of others to help with this sin and not other sins you have committed?

So, what kind of sins would you like to confess publicly here? Hypocrisy maybe? We're not here to discuss personal life issues - that's a typical way that Mormons attack Christians. Get back on the topic of Mormonism, because it just might be that this could lead someplace you don't want to go.

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE=BigJulie;150184]

I won't answer this a third time go look in my postings for today it will help you find it..


Oh wait I just found it for you.. You had to see it you commented on it.. Here I added it so you would have to go looking.. What I believe you wanted to see it in bold and red..


I don't know, eating the cookies is worse for me.. Still If I ever lie to her again I will confess it to her.. The whole Church or even just the Pastor doesn't need to be involved.. No where in the scripture is anyone commanded to confess to any man or group of people.. I did that to help me in my repentance.. Most of them held me up in prayer and that helped a lot.. It was hard admitting my sin to all but It helped me.. I could have kept it between me AND GOD AND GAINED THE SAME FORGIVENESS. BUT AT THAT TIME I HAD SUNK SO LOW IN MY FAITH THAT I NEEDED THEIR TO SHORE ME UP.. You seem to still believe that this was a Biblical requirement for forgiveness.. IT WAS NOT.. the confession was owed to God it was not owed to the church or the Pastor.. IHS jim


So, why with the sin of adultery you needed the help of their prayers and not with lying about a plate of cookies---if, as you say, in God's eyes...the sins are no different. Why were they different to you?

[BigJulie]

This is none of your business!! SO SHUT UP ALREADY!! YOUR LIFE SO BORING THAT YOU WANT ALL THE JUICY DETAILS. I'D SUGGEST GETTING YOURSELF A GOOD ROMANCE NOVEL.

As I stated, I do not care about the details or about the adultery. I am more interested in why James acted differently than he states he believes regarding sin. Why did he treat one sin different than another. That is all. If you call that juicy details....

[BigJulie]

So, what kind of sins would you like to confess publicly here? Hypocrisy maybe? We're not here to discuss personal life issues - that's a typical way that Mormons attack Christians. Get back on the topic of Mormonism, because it just might be that this could lead someplace you don't want to go.

The only thing I am interested with with James is why what he did is different than he preaches. He treated his sin of adultery different from other sins. He stated he needed the prayers and help of others. I ask why is this not true with all of his sins, if they are all the same to God?

I mean, for me--I do see some sins are more serious than others, so to me this makes perfect sense. But James preaches otherwise.

[RealFakeHair]

As I stated, I do not care about the details or about the adultery. I am more interested in why James acted differently than he states he believes regarding sin. Why did he treat one sin different than another. That is all. If you call that juicy details....

Change subject. While typing my 4 year daughter asks me to write down what I want for Christmas so I put down, kisses, kisses, and kisses. She said no papa write grown-up things, so I put my wish for Christmas was for BigJulie to get saved.
She just asked, who is BigJulie. lol

[Apologette]

The only thing I am interested with with James is why what he did is different than he preaches. He treated his sin of adultery different from other sins. He stated he needed the prayers and help of others. I ask why is this not true with all of his sins, if they are all the same to God?

I mean, for me--I do see some sins are more serious than others, so to me this makes perfect sense. But James preaches otherwise.

So, would you like us to publicly chat about your sins? Tell us which you'd like prayer for? Or are you without sin? Have any rocks? If you're not going to address the OP, then please try to stop lashing out at people in order to humiliate them. So, have you been to the temple lately to listen to Satan?

[Apologette]

This is none of your business!! SO SHUT UP ALREADY!! YOUR LIFE SO BORING THAT YOU WANT ALL THE JUICY DETAILS. I'D SUGGEST GETTING YOURSELF A GOOD ROMANCE NOVEL.

Yes, I totally agree!

[James Banta]

[QUOTE=James Banta;150217]


So, why with the sin of adultery you needed the help of their prayers and not with lying about a plate of cookies---if, as you say, in God's eyes...the sins are no different. Why were they different to you?

Again back to the answer I have already given to you..

I could have kept it between me AND GOD AND GAINED THE SAME FORGIVENESS. BUT AT THAT TIME I HAD SUNK SO LOW IN MY FAITH THAT I NEEDED THEIRS TO SHORE ME UP..

They did that through their prayers... IHS jim

[BigJulie]

Again back to the answer I have already given to you..

I could have kept it between me AND GOD AND GAINED THE SAME FORGIVENESS. BUT AT THAT TIME I HAD SUNK SO LOW IN MY FAITH THAT I NEEDED THEIRS TO SHORE ME UP..


They did that through their prayers... IHS jimSo, if this sin was the same---why did you need their prayers. I get what you are saying. You do not get what I am asking. You preach that all sin is the same in the eyes of God. Why then was this sin DIFFERENT for YOU? Why were you so low? Why did you need help of others?

[BigJulie]

So, would you like us to publicly chat about your sins? Tell us which you'd like prayer for? Or are you without sin? Have any rocks? If you're not going to address the OP, then please try to stop lashing out at people in order to humiliate them. So, have you been to the temple lately to listen to Satan?

What do you mean----this whole forum is designed so you can address "my sins' as you see them.

I agree. Let's shut down this whole site. Are you without sin? Have you any rocks? Please stop "lashing out at" me and my beliefs in order to humiliate me. I completely agree--let's shut down the whole place. To do otherwise is just hypocritical if you have sinned yourself, right?

[Apologette]

[QUOTE=BigJulie;150221]

Again back to the answer I have already given to you..

I could have kept it between me AND GOD AND GAINED THE SAME FORGIVENESS. BUT AT THAT TIME I HAD SUNK SO LOW IN MY FAITH THAT I NEEDED THEIRS TO SHORE ME UP..

They did that through their prayers... IHS jim
It really doesn't do any good to keep trying to justify yourself before those who will turn and trod down your pearls! The Mormons are not very scrupulous, Jim. They will use anything to obtain their objective - which is really the take over of Christianity by their paganistic cult. God has forgiven your sins, as He has forgiven mine. It never pays to share anything with a Mormon that you don't want used against you in the future - remember that. Just look at what just went down on CARM where one brother (a Mormon) said the most horrendous things about his other brother (a non-Mormon). Just very sad!

[BigJulie]

It really doesn't do any good to keep trying to justify yourself before those who will turn and trod down your pearls! The Mormons are not very scrupulous, Jim. They will use anything to obtain their objective - which is really the take over of Christianity by their paganistic cult. God has forgiven your sins, as He has forgiven mine. It never pays to share anything with a Mormon that you don't want used against you in the future - remember that.

Yes, I see--I question James because, as I see it, his actions do not match what he teaches. For heaven's sake--my questioning must be "not very scrupulous"---how dare I question him. ;)

[Apologette]

What do you mean----this whole forum is designed so you can address "my sins' as you see them.

You like discussing other people's sins, right? Would you like us to address yours? Get off your high horse - you shouldn't be judging people publicly here - stick to doctrine. Do unto others as YOU want done to yourself. And stop acting so innocent. You know exactly what I mean.

[Apologette]

So, if this sin was the same---why did you need their prayers. I get what you are saying. You do not get what I am asking. You preach that all sin is the same in the eyes of God. Why then was this sin DIFFERENT for YOU? Why were you so low? Why did you need help of others?

How do you feel about Joseph Smith's pedophile behavior. Should a man in his late thirties be taking 14 year old girls to bed - or do you justify that?

[BigJulie]

You like discussing other people's sins, right? Would you like us to address yours? Get off your high horse - you shouldn't be judging people publicly here - stick to doctrine. Do unto others as YOU want done to yourself. And stop acting so innocent. You know exactly what I mean.


I believe the same. You should stop discussing "my sins" --aren't you the ones always telling me I am going to go to hell because of what I believe and because what I do (going to the temple, etc.) I agree, you shouldn't be publically judging people. You should get off your high horse. I so completely agree!!!!!

And please stop acting so innocent that you don't realize that it is completely hypocritical for you a sinner to get on here and try to expose my sins or any other Mormons for that matter.

[Apologette]

I believe the same. You should stop discussing "my sins" --aren't you the ones always telling me I am going to go to hell because of what I believe and because what I do (going to the temple, etc.) I agree, you shouldn't be publically judging people. You should get off your high horse. I so completely agree!!!!!

And please stop acting so innocent that you don't realize that it is completely hypocritical for you a sinner to get on here and try to expose my sins or any other Mormons for that matter.

Then get off of Jim's back. You know exactly what you were doing. Is the theme of this thread "sin," or Satanic Mormon temple rites?

[neverending]

I believe the same. You should stop discussing "my sins" --aren't you the ones always telling me I am going to go to hell because of what I believe and because what I do (going to the temple, etc.) I agree, you shouldn't be publically judging people. You should get off your high horse. I so completely agree!!!!!

And please stop acting so innocent that you don't realize that it is completely hypocritical for you a sinner to get on here and try to expose my sins or any other Mormons for that matter.

SO, you admit to being a sinner? YES, you are as well as every human being on planet Earth. The one main sin of yours is denying the true Jesus Christ of the Bible and believing in the manufactured one of J. Smith. Again I am waiting for you to answer me about why the LDS temple ceremony is almost word for word the same as the Masons. Why is that? Why would God, the true God want his people to commit to secret combinations and participate in strange, vile rituals? If anything the temple ceremony is nothing but a Old Boys secret club, there's nothing spiritual about it. I was made aware of that when I went to the temple and I never went back! God was warning me that it is wrong and I have always been very discerning about people, places and things. So when you stop bringing up James' sin, and look at your own life, maybe we can move on.

[neverending]

Yes, I see--I question James because, as I see it, his actions do not match what he teaches. For heaven's sake--my questioning must be "not very scrupulous"---how dare I question him. ;)

How dare is right! I will get in touch with Jill and see if she can give me your real name and address and you will be hearing from our attorney. I asked you to stop bringing up what my husband did over 14 years ago but no, you continue. You are a cruel, heartless, hateful woman. I could say more but I won't at this time.

[neverending]

As far as I know--Mormons are in to jello, not koolaid. ;)

I don't know of any Mormon who has done anything like the Jim Jones group.

But I am not the one here telling people they should jump off a cliff. *sigh*

Julie, you think what I asked you was funny? I asked you, if your prophet were to ask all members to go to their Ward Houses and prepare to drink poisoned Kool-Aid or your not so funny remark, (sarcastic) so how about poisoned, green jello, would you go and drink or eat it? Would you jump off a cliff if your prophet personally asked you to? Those are the questions, I'd like an answer and not some stu pid mocking, sarcastic reply.

[Sir]

I have always been very discerning about people, places and things. So when you stop bringing up James' sin, and look at your own life, maybe we can move on.

So your discenrment was what got James found out? You knew what was going on, with who, and where?

I'm going to say that given you and James' stories of your lives, the discernment you claim to possess is rather lacking. :)

[neverending]

Umm, it wasn't the eating of the cookies--it was the lying about it, I asked you about. So, would you confess the lie to your pastor? Why did you think confessing to the congregation would help you repent? Would you feel the same need for help if you lied to your wife about eating the cookies? Why or why not?

Again, this is NONE of your BUSINESS! Clean up your own house before starting in on someone else! I've given you enough warnings. Jill will be notified of your cruel, callous comments.

[Sir]

How dare is right! I will get in touch with Jill and see if she can give me your real name and address and you will be hearing from our attorney. I asked you to stop bringing up what my husband did over 14 years ago but no, you continue. You are a cruel, heartless, hateful woman. I could say more but I won't at this time.

I've never seen a couple of whiney tattle-tales in my life, and I teach middle school! LOL

What are you going to ask your attorney? "Please tell those Mormon people I am talking to to stop bringing up my husband's past sins while I am trying to point out their sins."

Call the Whaaaaaaaaaaambulance.

[BigJulie]

Then get off of Jim's back. You know exactly what you were doing. Is the theme of this thread "sin," or Satanic Mormon temple rites?


But unlike you, I am not judging Jim, I am not telling him he is going to go to hell. I am merely trying to understand that he states that he believes one thing, but then explains that in practice, he acts differently than he states.

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE=neverending;150256]

SO, you admit to being a sinner? YES, you are as well as every human being on planet Earth. The one main sin of yours is denying the true Jesus Christ of the Bible and believing in the manufactured one of J. Smith. At this point, shouldn't I tell you to get off your high horse and stop judging me?


Again I am waiting for you to answer me about why the LDS temple ceremony is almost word for word the same as the Masons. Why is that? Why would God, the true God want his people to commit to secret combinations and participate in strange, vile rituals? If anything the temple ceremony is nothing but a Old Boys secret club, there's nothing spiritual about it. I was made aware of that when I went to the temple and I never went back! God was warning me that it is wrong and I have always been very discerning about people, places and things. So when you stop bringing up James' sin, and look at your own life, maybe we can move on. Hmmm, I think this is the first time I have seen you bring up the Masons. Why is that? I have no idea. Where did the Mason's get it?

What I can tell you is that going to the temple brings greater peace and those who go faithfully will be greater able to avoid temptations. This is how the subject of James got brought up because had he stayed true to his temple covenants and stayed true to going faithfully, he would not have "sunk so low" (his terms) and committed adultery. Of that I am sure.

[BigJulie]

How dare is right! I will get in touch with Jill and see if she can give me your real name and address and you will be hearing from our attorney. I asked you to stop bringing up what my husband did over 14 years ago but no, you continue. You are a cruel, heartless, hateful woman. I could say more but I won't at this time.

Gp ahead, ask Jill. It is amazing to me that you all do not feel that James is capable of answering such a simple answer as to why his actions say one thing and he teaches another. I am not talking about his adultery--I am talking about the fact that of that sin, he felt the need to confess it to the congregation, felt that he needed their prayers to help him overcome and that with other sins, he did not. Especially in light that he sees all sin as the same and no sin as more serious than another.

[BigJulie]

I've never seen a couple of whiney tattle-tales in my life, and I teach middle school! LOL

What are you going to ask your attorney? "Please tell those Mormon people I am talking to to stop bringing up my husband's past sins while I am trying to point out their sins."

Call the Whaaaaaaaaaaambulance.

This is the most amazing part of the whole forum. This whole forum is designed so that "those who are saved" can sit and call out the "sins" of others so that they can be saved too.

And the funny thing---James adultery is not the questions I am asking. I am not saying he is not forgiven. I am not saying he hasn't repented. At first I believed he hadn't, but he explained the steps he took and they seem sincere enough to me. But then, it lead me to ask why he treated this sin differently than others as it is he who teaches one sin is the same as the next in the eyes of God. Why then did James treat this sin different from other sins.

For this, I am getting the third degree. It is an honest question. It would be like one of them asking me---if I believe in going to the temple, why haven't I gone for two years---or something to that nature. If James believes adultery is the same as other sins, why did he treat it differently? Why did he feel he needed to do more?

[nrajeffreturns]

How dare is right! I will get in touch with Jill and see if she can give me your real name and address and you will be hearing from our attorney.
I think Jill is smart enough to realize that doing so would get her into a lot of trouble, and incur responsibility for enabling a stalker. Plus, what could an attorney really do for you? Has anything untrue been said about your husband? On the other hand, it seems as if you have said some untrue things about other people, so the deck seems a bit stacked against you.

[BigJulie]

I think Jill is smart enough to realize that doing so would get her into a lot of trouble, and incur responsibility for enabling a stalker. Plus, what could an attorney really do for you? Has anything untrue been said about your husband? On the other hand, it seems as if you have said some untrue things about other people, so the deck seems a bit stacked against you.

Yes, this is in interesting idea--suing someone for asking some questions.

Attorney: We are suing for liable.

Judge: What did they say that was libelous?

Attorney: That my client had an affair.

Judge: Did he?

Attorney: Yes

Judge: So then, what are you suing for?

Attorney: Har***ment.

Judge: How did they har*** you?

Attorney: They kept asking personal questions about it over and over again?

Judge: What kind of questions?

Attorney: They wanted to know why my husband asked for help from his congregation for his adultery but not for lying about eating a plate of cookies.

Judge: Did he eat a plate of cookies and lie about it?

Attorney: No

Judge: Oh, so are you suing for saying he lied about eating a plate of cookies?

Attorney: No your honor, the cookie plate was just a hypothetical situation.

Judge: So, then, what are you suing for?

Attorney: Har***ment.

Judge: So, how did they har*** your client?

Attorney: They wanted to know why he treated his adultery different from other sins.

Judge: Why would they ask that over an over again?

Attorney: Because they say that my client believes that adultery is no different from any other sin in the eyes of God.

Judge: Does he say that?

Attorney: Yes

Judge: And they want to know why he treated it differently?

Attorney: Yes

Judge: Did he answer them.

Attorney: Well, yes, many times.

Judge: What did he answer them?

Attorney: That he felt he needed the extra help.

Judge: Did that satisfy them?

Attorney: No, they didn't understand why he would need extra help if it was no different from other sins.

Judge: Why on earth were they having this conversation in the first place.

Attorney: Because they were on a site that my client was ***uring them they were going to go to hell because they follow Satan in the temple.

Judge: They do what?

Attorney: They are going to go to hell because they follow Satan in the temple. My client was warning them about that.

Judge, to the defendant's attorney: Is this true?

Defendant's attorney: Yes, this is true, this group has been telling my client and others like them they are going to go to hell.

Judge: How long has this been going on?

Defendant's attorney: For a very long time.

Judge: Is what they are saying true?

Defendant's attorney: No.

Judge: Would they like to sue for liable?

Defendant's attorney: No, they are not like that.

Judge: If this has been happening for years, what about har***ment?

Defendant's attorney: No, your honor, they see this as freedom of speech. Others can ask them questions and accuse them if they like. They can even repeatedly accuse them of the same thing over and over again. They will continue to answer the best they can.


Neverending---just for the record....I do not think any less of James for his sin. It just merely brought up the question about why he repented the way he did. I am surprised this is bothering you so badly. He confessed it to your whole congregation. He has confessed it here. It seems like he has been pretty forthright about it and honest about it. I do not bring it up because I believe it speaks less about him--if anything, the steps he took took a lot of courage and a lot of faith. I merely am trying to understand why he felt the need to do what he did as he is the one who tells me that each sin is the same in the eyes of God. I am just trying to understand why he felt the need to do more for one sin than another. It appears a contradiction that I am trying to clarify. That is all.

If anything, let me applaud James for his actions. It speaks well of him. I know it would be very difficult for me to do the same if I were in the same situation. I look up to him for it. Please don't think I think anything less of him or that I ask questions to cause him or you pain. I do not. I am just trying to understand. If you would like, we can talk about sin A and Sin B and refer to them in those terms from now on.

[neverending]

Yes, this is in interesting idea--suing someone for asking some questions.

Attorney: We are suing for liable.

Judge: What did they say that was libelous?

Attorney: That my client had an affair.

Judge: Did he?

Attorney: Yes

Judge: So then, what are you suing for?

Attorney: Har***ment.

Judge: How did they har*** you?

Attorney: They kept asking personal questions about it over and over again?

Judge: What kind of questions?

Attorney: They wanted to know why my husband asked for help from his congregation for his adultery but not for lying about eating a plate of cookies.

Judge: Did he eat a plate of cookies and lie about it?

Attorney: No

Judge: Oh, so are you suing for saying he lied about eating a plate of cookies?

Attorney: No your honor, the cookie plate was just a hypothetical situation.

Judge: So, then, what are you suing for?

Attorney: Har***ment.

Judge: So, how did they har*** your client?

Attorney: They wanted to know why he treated his adultery different from other sins.

Judge: Why would they ask that over an over again?

Attorney: Because they say that my client believes that adultery is no different from any other sin in the eyes of God.

Judge: Does he say that?

Attorney: Yes

Judge: And they want to know why he treated it differently?

Attorney: Yes

Judge: Did he answer them.

Attorney: Well, yes, many times.

Judge: What did he answer them?

Attorney: That he felt he needed the extra help.

Judge: Did that satisfy them?

Attorney: No, they didn't understand why he would need extra help if it was no different from other sins.

Judge: Why on earth were they having this conversation in the first place.

Attorney: Because they were on a site that my client was ***uring them they were going to go to hell because they follow Satan in the temple.

Judge: They do what?

Attorney: They are going to go to hell because they follow Satan in the temple. My client was warning them about that.

Judge, to the defendant's attorney: Is this true?

Defendant's attorney: Yes, this is true, this group has been telling my client and others like them they are going to go to hell.

Judge: How long has this been going on?

Defendant's attorney: For a very long time.

Judge: Is what they are saying true?

Defendant's attorney: No.

Judge: Would they like to sue for liable?

Defendant's attorney: No, they are not like that.

Judge: If this has been happening for years, what about har***ment?

Defendant's attorney: No, your honor, they see this as freedom of speech. Others can ask them questions and accuse them if they like. They can even repeatedly accuse them of the same thing over and over again. They will continue to answer the best they can.


Neverending---just for the record....I do not think any less of James for his sin. It just merely brought up the question about why he repented the way he did. I am surprised this is bothering you so badly. He confessed it to your whole congregation. He has confessed it here. It seems like he has been pretty forthright about it and honest about it. I do not bring it up because I believe it speaks less about him--if anything, the steps he took took a lot of courage and a lot of faith. I merely am trying to understand why he felt the need to do what he did as he is the one who tells me that each sin is the same in the eyes of God. I am just trying to understand why he felt the need to do more for one sin than another. It appears a contradiction that I am trying to clarify. That is all.

If anything, let me applaud James for his actions. It speaks well of him. I know it would be very difficult for me to do the same if I were in the same situation. I look up to him for it. Please don't think I think anything less of him or that I ask questions to cause him or you pain. I do not. I am just trying to understand. If you would like, we can talk about sin A and Sin B and refer to them in those terms from now on.

NO! It will not be discussed ever again...get it!! As for contacting Jill, I still will. And where have I ever said anything about anyone that hasn't been true!! IF I am to sue you, it would be on the grounds of emotional distress! You are a heartless witch!! You give me lip service when you say, "Please don't think I think anything less of him or that I ask questions to cause him or you pain." Well Julie, you have caused pain, with every post you have made concerning an issue that is none of your **** business!! It ends NOW or there will be consequences!!

[neverending]

I think Jill is smart enough to realize that doing so would get her into a lot of trouble, and incur responsibility for enabling a stalker. Plus, what could an attorney really do for you? Has anything untrue been said about your husband? On the other hand, it seems as if you have said some untrue things about other people, so the deck seems a bit stacked against you.

I'd like to know when I have ever said anything that was no true about someone here on this forum! CFR! Show me where! Where is the evidence Jeff?

[neverending]

This is the most amazing part of the whole forum. This whole forum is designed so that "those who are saved" can sit and call out the "sins" of others so that they can be saved too.

And the funny thing---James adultery is not the questions I am asking. I am not saying he is not forgiven. I am not saying he hasn't repented. At first I believed he hadn't, but he explained the steps he took and they seem sincere enough to me. But then, it lead me to ask why he treated this sin differently than others as it is he who teaches one sin is the same as the next in the eyes of God. Why then did James treat this sin different from other sins.

For this, I am getting the third degree. It is an honest question. It would be like one of them asking me---if I believe in going to the temple, why haven't I gone for two years---or something to that nature. If James believes adultery is the same as other sins, why did he treat it differently? Why did he feel he needed to do more?

**** it! Again what business is it of yours? Are you now the sin police? I think he answered the question but you continue to throw it in our faces.....you enjoy hurting people witch!! If you ever thought you could convince me to come back to Mormonism, you have failed! You are just one example of why I began to question Mormonism and then began to study it and found it wanting. Thank God for His love for me in that He lead me out of a cult and the cruelties of people like you!

[BigJulie]

NO! It will not be discussed ever again...get it!! As for contacting Jill, I still will. And where have I ever said anything about anyone that hasn't been true!! IF I am to sue you, it would be on the grounds of emotional distress! You are a heartless witch!! You give me lip service when you say, "Please don't think I think anything less of him or that I ask questions to cause him or you pain." Well Julie, you have caused pain, with every post you have made concerning an issue that is none of your **** business!! It ends NOW or there will be consequences!!

I am sorry neverending--clearly I did not understand how painful this is. I will drop any further discussion on the matter. Truly, I am sorry.

You know---I just went back and read through this whole thread to try to see what was going on here. I have to say neverending--I did not see your posts. I would come on, read James' response and move forward (which is why I obviously missed your Isaiah question.) Clearly, this discussion bothered you and I did not see it. James seemed fine with answering my questions---even if he repeated and even if I felt we were not communicating well. But, I did not see most of your earlier inputs. I am sorry, really!

[Sir]

**** it! Again what business is it of yours? Are you now the sin police? I think he answered the question but you continue to throw it in our faces.....you enjoy hurting people witch!! If you ever thought you could convince me to come back to Mormonism, you have failed! You are just one example of why I began to question Mormonism and then began to study it and found it wanting. Thank God for His love for me in that He lead me out of a cult and the cruelties of people like you!

Buwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaa................

"**** it, Julie, you are a heartless witch. I'm glad God led me away from the cruelties of people like you!"

It's so pitifully sad and ironic that all you can do is laugh.

Every time neverending opens her mouth about how awful she believes the Mormons were so she had to leave the church, the more we see that maybe she was staring into a mirror the whole time and now she's just projecting herself and her negative at***ude onto everyone else and accusing them of her problems.

[Sir]

NO! It will not be discussed ever again...get it!! As for contacting Jill, I still will. And where have I ever said anything about anyone that hasn't been true!! IF I am to sue you, it would be on the grounds of emotional distress! You are a heartless witch!! You give me lip service when you say, "Please don't think I think anything less of him or that I ask questions to cause him or you pain." Well Julie, you have caused pain, with every post you have made concerning an issue that is none of your **** business!! It ends NOW or there will be consequences!!

And the consequences might put you in the ER with your high blood pressure. I suggest you tone it down, stop swearing at people, stop calling them names, and maybe you won't be so full of rage and anger.

[Sir]

I am sorry neverending--clearly I did not understand how painful this is. I will drop any further discussion on the matter. Truly, I am sorry.

You'd think that since James is so open about it, that he claims forgiveness has been given, and that neverending also claims all is forgiven and in the past, mentioning it wouldn't be so "painful". I think maybe there is more to the story that we don't know (and don't want to know) that indicates things aren't as remedied as we are being led to believe.

[neverending]

and the consequences might put you in the er with your high blood pressure. I suggest you tone it down, stop swearing at people, stop calling them names, and maybe you won't be so full of rage and anger.

don't tell me what to do!! And my blood pressure is not your concern either! I won't tone it down, and i will say whatever i want, get it!! You, grande julie have kept it going, so since i was taught to never start a fight but to make sure i finish it, that is what i will do! My irish, scotch heritage and reddish hair has been awakened, thank you very much! OH, BEFORE I GO, IF AND I SAY IF; I END UP IN THE ER I WILL SEND YOU THE BILL.

[Sir]

don't tell me what to do!!

But....you just told ME what to do. :p (also, I didn't "tell" you what to do. I made a suggestion. And apparently you acknowledge that the consequences of not heeding my suggestion could come to fruition, so it wasn't all that out of line for me to suggest it :) )


And my blood pressure is not your concern either!

True. I would just hate to see your health deteriorate because of this silly board.


I won't tone it down, and i will say whatever i want, get it!!

We've noticed. It isn't making your side of the aisle look all that appealing.


You, grande julie have kept it going, so since i was taught to never start a fight but to make sure i finish it, that is what i will do!

That doesn't sound very Christian. Is that what they teach at Sandy Ridge?


My irish, scotch heritage and reddish hair has been awakened, thank you very much!

I don't think I had anything to do with that, but okay.


OH, BEFORE I GO, IF AND I SAY IF; I END UP IN THE ER I WILL SEND YOU THE BILL.

cute.

You don't have insurance? You could try Obamacare. Better get signing up soon though! :p

[Billyray]

Some sins require a "deeper process of repentance". . .


What exactly do you mean when you say a "deeper process of repentance"?

1. What is the exact "Process of repentance" for lying?

2. What is the exact "Process of repentance" for adultery?


We need to ask James.
You are the one who made the comment not Jim. So do you have an answer for me or not?

[theway]

So, what kind of sins would you like to confess publicly here? Hypocrisy maybe? We're not here to discuss personal life issues - that's a typical way that Mormons attack Christians. Get back on the topic of Mormonism, because it just might be that this could lead someplace you don't want to go.OK... Let's get back to Mormonism.

Do you believe that all the wrongs that you claim Joseph Smith did, was the same as stealing a plate of cookies?;)

[James Banta]

OK... Let's get back to Mormonism.

Do you believe that all the wrongs that you claim Joseph Smith did, was the same as stealing a plate of cookies?;)

In the site of God, yes.. Sin, is rebellion against God. Rebellion is rebellion.. There are no levels of the penalty of sin now is there,, The only punishment for unconfessed, unforgiven sin in a person is death.. The sin doesn't matter to God, the Prophet tells is that "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." (Ezekiel 18:20). Does it matter if it is by bearing a false witness, cursing the name of God, murdering, or adultery? The penalty remains the same, DEATH.. Since there are no levels in God's punishment there must be no levels in the crime that brought that punishment.. That and through James the Holy Spirit teaches that exact doctrine as to the seriousness of sin (James 2:10)..

Many a fool might say that that lessens the seriousness of murder and adultery.. That would be a gross misunderstanding.. What it does is explains how serious all sin is.. Lying is a major sin it is explained as being equal to murder, and adultery in God's sight.. It not that murder and adultery are less of a sin than many believe them to be. It is that lying is a lot more sin than they have imagined. IHS jim

[James Banta]

I do not care about what your husband did over 14 years ago. I am trying to understand how he sees this sin. I have no judgment for him on this, really. I am trying more to understand how he (James) sees it.

I have heard him discuss over and over that all sins are the same, that if we have broken any part of the law, we have broken all of it. That we are all filthy rags. I told him that if my husband committed adultery and then tried to p*** it off as I am just as bad as he is and in the same boat because I had lied about (for example) eating a plate of cookies, I would be ticked.

He then went on to explain the steps he took to repent and that he did take it seriously. (This is good for him).

But now I am trying to understand if the pastor would treat the sin of lying about eating a plate of cookies the same as adultery. I am trying to understand how James understands this because to me, it appears on one hand he acknowledges is as serious and then on the other hand tries to excuse his behavior by making it no different than any other sin in the eyes of God. Well, if it is no different then any other sin--why the confession to the whole congregation---unless we have to do that for EVERY sin? Why would the pastor treat it differently if God doesn't see it differently?

Since I never trivialized my sin I don't think you have a right to say I have.. Just because I believe the Bible even James 2 that teaches that faith without works is dead, and that if we keep the whole law offending is just one point we are guilty of all, you have no right to judge me for that faith.. I won't make any more judgment of you other than to say you deny that the scripture is true.. You may call Travis Mitchell at Sandy Ridge Community Church and ask him about Jmes 2:10 if you like.. The number is listed on their Home page of the net.. Call hos ask if all sin is the same before God in the light of that p***age.. See what he says.. I haven't spoken to him about it. You will caught him cold..

I have already told you my confession to the Pastor and the church were for my benefit, not to gain forgiveness. They helped me to hold my trust in God. They didn't add to whether God forgives or not.. Like David my sin was against God and only against God (Psalm 51:4) IHS jim

[James Banta]

So, if this sin was the same---why did you need their prayers. I get what you are saying. You do not get what I am asking. You preach that all sin is the same in the eyes of God. Why then was this sin DIFFERENT for YOU? Why were you so low? Why did you need help of others?

I needed prayer because of my weakness in trusting God to do what He promised to do.. That is weakness in a extreme measure.. This sin was different to me because I am flesh. My flesh was still holding onto the thoughts of the flesh. That these sins so bitterly ***ailed by men are more sever than others.. Though this He showed me that all sin is extremely serious in His eyes.. That sin is sin and separates us from Him.. What could be worse that eternal separation from God? IHS jim

[BigJulie]

I needed prayer because of my weakness in trusting God to do what He promised to do.. That is weakness in a extreme measure.. This sin was different to me because I am flesh. My flesh was still holding onto the thoughts of the flesh. That these sins so bitterly ***ailed by men are more sever than others.. Though this He showed me that all sin is extremely serious in His eyes.. That sin is sin and separates us from Him.. What could be worse that eternal separation from God? IHS jim

James, I agree that all sin is serious in the eyes of God. I also understand that you recognize that this sin was more serious for you because to overcome it took more faith and more work on your part. But, I have told your wife that I will not discuss this anymore. It seems still a very tender spot for her (something I did not understand...in fact, I thought Apologette was your wife, as I remember your wife was a member here...just didn't remember who.)

I think the way asked some good questions then..that I guess you also see Joseph Smith on the exact same plain as yourself as you would not see his sins any different than yours in the eyes of God. As to you, one sinner is like the next and we all need Christ to save us. I completely agree, we all need Christ to save us. The problem is--Joseph Smith revealed this to us many times as well, so clearly, he understood and looked to Christ for salvation. He also understood that some sins take more work than others to overcome (through faith) just as you demonstrated and have taught in this thread.

[Apologette]

OK... Let's get back to Mormonism.

Do you believe that all the wrongs that you claim Joseph Smith did, was the same as stealing a plate of cookies?;)
Any sin will keep you out of the presence of God when you die. We do not enter heaven depending on our own righteousness but on the righteousness of the Biblical Christ, who is not the brother of Satan or the offspring of polygamous, pagan deities.

God condemns certain sins fiercely in the Bible. The sin of idolatry He consistently punished severely in the Old Testament, even to the point of having them taken captive by their enemies. Having "high places" and "Asherah poles" is the same as having false temples (as Mormons do), and the belief that God shares His glory with another (like Asherah - at least on Mormon we've seen contends that Asherah is "Mother goddess). Mormons are guilty of the sin of idolatry - take it from there.

[BigJulie]

Like David my sin was against God and only against God (Psalm 51:4) IHS jim

Here I disagree. The sin also hurt your wife and others (children, family)---as we can clearly see from this thread. My prayers are with her that she may heal from this hurt. You clearly have done the hard work of repentance. But---we really need to get away from this and back to the subject at hand...temples....we diverged with the subject of chast ity.

I will let you get back to your criticisms of my beliefs and actions (of temple attendance) ;)

[Apologette]

James, I agree that all sin is serious in the eyes of God. I also understand that you recognize that this sin was more serious for you because to overcome it took more faith and more work on your part. But, I have told your wife that I will not discuss this anymore. It seems still a very tender spot for her (something I did not understand...in fact, I thought Apologette was your wife, as I remember your wife was a member here...just didn't remember who.)

I think the way asked some good questions then..that I guess you also see Joseph Smith on the exact same plain as yourself as you would not see his sins any different than yours in the eyes of God. As to you, one sinner is like the next and we all need Christ to save us. I completely agree, we all need Christ to save us. The problem is--Joseph Smith revealed this to us many times as well, so clearly, he understood and looked to Christ for salvation. He also understood that some sins take more work than others to overcome (through faith) just as you demonstrated and have taught in this thread.

Joseph Smith was a lying false prophet - for Him God has reserved a special place: "Rev. 19:20: 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur." And so shall be the end of all those who set out to deceive the Bride of Christ!

[theway]

Joseph Smith was a lying false prophet - for Him God has reserved a special place: "Rev. 19:20: 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur." And so shall be the end of all those who set out to deceive the Bride of Christ!
Why would he be ***igned to a special place if his sins are on the same level as yours?

You guys never follow your own theology????

[theway]

In the site of God, yes.. Sin, is rebellion against God. Rebellion is rebellion.. There are no levels of the penalty of sin now is there,
Then if that is true and you feel that you can keep bringing up the sins of someone who can not even defend himself, then why do you complain when someone brings up your past sins???

[Apologette]

Here I disagree. The sin also hurt your wife and others (children, family)---as we can clearly see from this thread. My prayers are with her that she may heal from this hurt. You clearly have done the hard work of repentance. But---we really need to get away from this and back to the subject at hand...temples....we diverged with the subject of chast ity.

I will let you get back to your criticisms of my beliefs and actions (of temple attendance) ;)
You like to talk about other people's specific sin? Does it make you feel superior? Do you carry a pile of stones with you, since you apparently are without sin, right? Who are you to judge, when you commit the sin of rebellion?

[Apologette]

Why would he be ***igned to a special place if his sins are on the same level as yours?

You guys never follow your own theology????

All sin will exclude you from heaven - all are equally evil to God. However, false prophets are singled out specifically in the Bible. Read the Bible! The Old Testament sacrifices, which find fulfillment in Christ's sacrifice ON THE CROSS (which Mormons hate) were categorized. Sins of ignorance, for instance, were distinguished from idolatry. Each sin had a specific sacrifice ***igned. Mormons are guilty of the sin of idolatry, and whine and yam because we point out to them that they are worshipping a "god" made in their own image - an idol created in the warped, depraved mind of Joseph Smith.

[nrajeffreturns]

All sin will exclude you from heaven - all are equally evil to God.
Then everyone, including you antis, will be excluded from heaven, since:

1. All sin will exclude you from heaven, and

2. All have sinned.



However, false prophets are singled out specifically in the Bible.
But Jim has admitted that all the sins Joseph Smith committed were the equivalent of taking a plate of cookies.


So, if Jim is right--and he claims he gets his ideas from the bible and only the bible--then you antis have been obsessing and harping and wasting your lives fretting over nothing worse than a stolen plate of cookies.

[theway]

All sin will exclude you from heaven - all are equally evil to God. However, false prophets are singled out specifically in the Bible. Read the Bible! The Old Testament sacrifices, which find fulfillment in Christ's sacrifice ON THE CROSS (which Mormons hate) were categorized. Sins of ignorance, for instance, were distinguished from idolatry. Each sin had a specific sacrifice ***igned. Mormons are guilty of the sin of idolatry, and whine and yam because we point out to them that they are worshipping a "god" made in their own image - an idol created in the warped, depraved mind of Joseph Smith.You still haven't answered the question. If all sins carry the same weight, then why (under your theology) would they be ***igned to a special place?

Under the gospel of Jesus Christ as found in the Bible, it's because some sins carry a greater weight. However under YOUR theology it's creates an untenable paradox. Nothing new there though.

[Apologette]

You still haven't answered the question. If all sins carry the same weight, then why (under your theology) would they be ***igned to a special place?

Under the gospel of Jesus Christ as found in the Bible, it's because some sins carry a greater weight. However under YOUR theology it's creates an untenable paradox. Nothing new there though.

All sinners will be eternally consigned to Hell, eternal separation from God, outer darkness , where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. You have failed to believe in Biblical Jesus, the Son of God, the One provision provided by God as the means of salvation. It is unbelief which sends you to Hell - you send yourself!

[BigJulie]

All sinners will be eternally consigned to Hell, eternal separation from God, outer darkness , where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. You have failed to believe in Biblical Jesus, the Son of God, the One provision provided by God as the means of salvation. It is unbelief which sends you to Hell - you send yourself!


What do you think that Christ meant then, when he spoke of a "greater ****ation"?

Mat 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater ****ation.

[theway]

All sinners will be eternally consigned to Hell, eternal separation from God, outer darkness , where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. You have failed to believe in Biblical Jesus, the Son of God, the One provision provided by God as the means of salvation. It is unbelief which sends you to Hell - you send yourself!

No... Still not an answer to my simple question CA....

Are you afraid that by so doing that it will expose the absolute absurdity of you Faith Alone theology?

[Billyray]

Are you afraid that by so doing that it will expose the absolute absurdity of you Faith Alone theology?
So you admit that your works contribute for salvation (i.e. you work your way to heaven)?

[Billyray]

What do you think that Christ meant then, when he spoke of a "greater ****ation"?

Mat 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater ****ation.
That there are varying degrees of punishment in hell.

Now how does that address the issue that people such as yourself who place their faith in a false god will likely end up in hell?

[BigJulie]

That there are varying degrees of punishment in hell.

Now how does that address the issue that people such as yourself who place their faith in a false god will likely end up in hell?

Oh, that's right---you believe in varying degrees of hell, but not heaven. I forgot you believe this.

I see discussion in the scriptures regarding degrees of glory---but not of hell. How do you come to believe this "degrees of punishment" stuff?

[theway]

So you admit that your works contribute for salvation (i.e. you work your way to heaven)?That's nice Billy.... Still trying to conflate two separate arguments at the same time I see.... Has It ever really worked?

Now just take your little merry-go-round ride somewhere else.

[Billyray]

That's nice Billy.... Still trying to conflate two separate arguments at the same time I see.... Has It ever really worked?

Now just take your little merry-go-round ride somewhere else.

Here is what you said




Are you afraid that by so doing that it will expose the absolute absurdity of you Faith Alone theology?
By your comment you admit that you believe that your works contribute for salvation i.e. you work your way to heaven.

[Billyray]

Oh, that's right---you believe in varying degrees of hell, but not heaven. I forgot you believe this.
I never said that there were multiple Hells. Did I?

For example people on earth can have varying degrees of punishment for breaking the law but that doesn't mean that there are multiple earths. Perhaps you should actually read what I said.

[BigJulie]

Here is what you said


By your comment you admit that you believe that your works contribute for salvation i.e. you work your way to heaven.

Man, we have gone over this so many times Billyray. Think of it this way. A parent pays for the piano, pays for the lessons, pays to take the kid back and forth to the lessons---but somewhere, the kid has to work to learn to play the piano. A child could never say they learned the piano on their own. Any child would have to understand that it was his parent's grace that allowed him the opportunity to learn and that without their grace--nothing he could have done would have mattered. But, the child had to work or the grace would have been for nothing.

[BigJulie]

I never said that there were multiple Hells. Did I?

For example people on earth can have varying degrees of punishment for breaking the law but that doesn't mean that there are multiple earths. Perhaps you should actually read what I said.

Oh, varying degrees of punishment---but that does not const tiute different "hells"---(I wasn't speaking of a place, but then I don't think of heaven as a place either but as a state of being.)

Okay, I see. So, what in the scriptures makes you think there are varying degrees of punishment?

[Billyray]

Man, we have gone over this so many times Billyray. Think of it this way. A parent pays for the piano, pays for the lessons, pays to take the kid back and forth to the lessons---but somewhere, the kid has to work to learn to play the piano. A child could never say they learned the piano on their own. Any child would have to understand that it was his parent's grace that allowed him the opportunity to learn and that without their grace--nothing he could have done would have mattered. But, the child had to work or the grace would have been for nothing.
Do works contribute for salvation?

[Billyray]

---(I wasn't speaking of a place, but then I don't think of heaven as a place either but as a state of being.)

So those who are in the lowest mormon heaven can be in the same location as those who are in the Celestial kingdom?

[BigJulie]

Do works contribute for salvation?

Did the works of the student help him tap into the grace of his parents? Would the child realize the grace of his parents if he choose to not practice?

[BigJulie]

So those who are in the lowest mormon heaven can be in the same location as those who are in the Celestial kingdom?

Is God limited to any space?

[BigJulie]

I never said that there were multiple Hells. Did I?

For example people on earth can have varying degrees of punishment for breaking the law but that doesn't mean that there are multiple earths. Perhaps you should actually read what I said.

So, since you belief in "varying degrees of punishment" are you breaking from what James and Apologette stated in which there are no differences in sin and that they are all the same to God? (I mean, I get that God doesn't think any sin is good, but do you think some are more serious as there are different degrees of punishment?"

And what does "greater ****ation" look like to you----hell and outer darkness seem pretty bad...how do you see they differ?

[theway]

Here is what you said


By your comment you admit that you believe that your works contribute for salvation i.e. you work your way to heaven.That's nice Billy... Still not interested in your ride though.

[nrajeffreturns]

So those who are in the lowest mormon heaven can be in the same location as those who are in the Celestial kingdom?

Maybe, if they return some of the stolen cookies?

[Ma'am]

Mormons keep their temple rites secret. And for good cause. If people knew what went on in the secret Mormon temples they'd never be talked into converting to Mormonism. Satan plays a very prominent, if not the most prominent role in these secret rites. Most people, even if t hey aren't Christians, have enough common sense to stay away from anyting related to Satanism.

One person who went through the Mormon temple put it this way: "If the rites were really God's truth, then wouldn't Satan be trying to talk everyone out of them? If I pray to Satan to ask him what I should do, would he answer: "Be a good Mormon or I'll get you?"

The temple endowment made me wonder, whose side is Satan actually on? Apparently he's on the Mormon Church's side - that is, if you take the temple ceremony seriously.

So just follow Satan's advice if you want to be a good Mormon. That's what I learned in the temple." (http://www.i4m.com/think/temples/temple_experience.htm , my underlining)

Why would a temple-going Mormon come away with this impression? Because Satan plays a very significant role in the secret, Masonic-based, temple ceremonies of Mormons:

For instance, check out this portion of the Mormon rite:


THE APRON

[Lucifer returns as Adam is eating the fruit.]

LUCIFER: That is right.

EVE: [To Adam.] It is better for us to p*** through sorrow that we may know the good from the evil. [To Lucifer.] I know thee now. Thou art Lucifer, he who was cast out of Father's presence for rebellion.

LUCIFER: Yes. You are beginning to see already.

ADAM: What is that apron you have on?

LUCIFER: It is an emblem of my power and priesthoods.

ADAM: Priesthoods?

LUCIFER: Yes, priesthoods.

ADAM: I am looking for Father to come down to give us further instructions.

LUCIFER: Oh, you are looking for Father to come down, are you?

[Elohim and Jehovah are heard speaking outside the Garden Room.]

ELOHIM: Jehovah, we promised Adam that we would visit him and give him further instructions. Come, let us go down.

JEHOVAH: We will go down, Elohim.

ADAM: I hear their voices; they are coming.

LUCIFER: See--you are naked. Take some fig leaves and make you aprons. Father will see your nakedness. Quick! Hide!

[Lucifer withdraws from view.]

ADAM: Brethren and sisters, put on your aprons.

[He waits until they have done so.]

[To Eve.] Come, let us hide.

[Adam and Eve withdraw from view.]

Notice how Lucifer (Satan) declares he has priesthoods! Who gave him those priesthoods but his "heavenly father," the Mormon deity? Satan is his (heavenly father's) second spirit baby. So one might ask, where do Mormon priesthood claims come from? Furthermore, who tells the Mormon temple participants to wear aprons? Satan
again!

Later on, Satan actually threatens the Mormon deity:

LUCIFER IS EXPELLED FROM THE GARDEN

ELOHIM: Lucifer!

[Lucifer returns.]

ELOHIM: What hast thou been doing here?

LUCIFER: I have been doing that which has been done on other worlds.

ELOHIM: What is that?

LUCIFER: I have been giving some of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil to them.

ELOHIM: Lucifer, because thou hast done this, thou shalt be cursed above all the beasts of the field. Upon thy belly thou shalt go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life.

LUCIFER: If thou cursest me for doing the same thing which has been done on other worlds, I will take the spirits that follow me, and they shall possess the bodies thou createst for Adam and Eve!

ELOHIM: I will place enmity between thee and the seed of the woman. Thou mayest have power to bruise his heal, but he shall have power to crush thy head.

LUCIFER: Then with that enmity I will take the treasures of the earth, and with gold and silver I will buy up armies and navies, popes and priests, and reign with blood and horror on the earth! (note: rite changed to read: "false priests who oppress and tyrants who destroy.")

ELOHIM: Depart!

What a perversion - the Bible no place records this threat, and Satan is seen as an equal of the Mormon god, "Elohim."

Further on in this parody of creation, the Mormon god doesn't answer Adam and Eve's prayers. Who does? Satan:

ADAM: Brethren and sisters, this represents the telestial kingdom, or the world in which we now live. Adam, on finding himself in the lone and dreary world, built an altar and offered prayer, and these are the words he uttered:

Oh God, hear the words of my mouth.
Oh God, hear the words of my mouth.
Oh God, hear the words of my mouth.

(Note: these are the same words that Mormon participants say in their temple prayer circle! So what happens? Lucifer answers Adam's prayers. Is this who answers Mormon prayers as well?)

LUCIFER: I hear you. What is it you want?

ADAM: Who are you?

LUCIFER: I am the god of this world.

ADAM: You, the god of this world?

LUCIFER: Yes. What do you want?

ADAM: I am looking for messengers.

LUCIFER: Oh, you want someone to preach to you. You want religion, do you? There will be many willing to preach to you the philosophies of men mingled with scripture.

Then after Satan talks about mingling scriptures with philosophies (as Mormons here do) he goes on to boast about his power:

LUCIFER: Now is the great day of my power. I reign from the rivers to the ends of the earth. There is none who dares to molest or make afraid.

Note: Mormons are wary of water. They believe it is the domain of Satan. The FLDS are as well.

And further on, Satan threatens the Mormon initiates that unless they keep their "temple" convenats, they'll be in his power:

LUCIFER: Ah! You have looked over my kingdom and my greatness and glory. Now you want to take possession of the whole of it.

[He indicates the initiates.]

I have a word to say concerning these people. If they do not walk up to every covenant they make at these altars in this temple this day, they will be in my power!



Folks it is Satan who wants people to be Mormons - and he threatens them if they don't comply with their temple promises! How bizarre is that? Furthermore, according to the Tanners,:


Another important change has been made in the sign for the Second Token of the Melchizedek Priesthood. In the 1984 version of the endowment ceremony, as printed in Appendix A of Evolution of the Mormon Temple Ceremony, page 94, we find this:

"The sign is made by raising both hands high above the head (Officiator demonstrates.), and while lowering the hands repeating aloud the words:

Pay Lay Ale
Pay Lay Ale
Pay Lay Ale"

As early as 1969 we pointed out a problem with this: "...there seems to have been a change made in this part of the ceremony, for the Salt Lake Tribune, Feb. 12, 1906, gave the words as 'Pale, Ale, Ale,' and Temple Mormonism used the words 'Pale, Hale, Hale.' " (The Mormon Kingdom, vol. 1, p. 138)

However this may be, in another portion of the temple ceremony, it is explained that "Pay Lay Ale" means "Oh God, hear the words of my mouth!" (see this important source for info on Mormon temple changes: http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no76.htm)

So, the initiates pray Adam and Eve's prayer -the very one that Satan answered. And remember, according to the temple rites, he is the real god of this world (they apparently don't understand metaphor).

Folks, Satan plays the central role in Mormon temple rites - don't get involved with the Satanic! You'll find yourself serving a cult that will demand 10 percent of your income for the rest of your life! And demand that you say an oath declaring all that you have or will have is dedicated to "the kingdom of God," which in Mormonese is The Mormon Church!

This is dreadful! And Satanic to the core. But most Mormons will be too blind spiritually to see it!

[Ma'am]

Julie, I appreciate all you've found from attending your temple but yes, it is very interesting that we both experienced different feelings about it. The day I entered the temple to marry James, as I was sitting there going through all the requirements. the one thought kept coming into my head, "why would God want us to do these vile things? This is not right! As I sat there, I then heard a voice which said, "GET UP, LEAVE! You do not belong here!" I heard this voice three times. With each time I heard this voice, it was more insistent til I almost did get up and felt like something was trying to push me to my feet. Now, who do you think was speaking to me? I know it was the Holy Spirit trying to warn me as He had warned me many times before. Julie, to hear you talk, I can clearly see how totally blind you are to things of the spirit. God did NOT ordain this ceremony. You also totally forgot what is written within your BoM about secret combinations.
I would appreciate too if you would be so kind as to share with me what exactly Isaiah said concerning temple covenants for I am not familiar with anything of the kind. Since I know that Isaiah never mentioned covenants I would never return to Mormonism. With all the knowledge I've learned since leaving it in 1980, I know without a doubt that it is a cult and teaches another gospel which we as believers have been warned against. Would you turn from Mormonism if you had an open mind and truly believed in your own scriptures such as what I mentioned about the secret combinations that Ether mentions? Would you turn from Mormonism knowing that the temple ceremony is so similar to what the Masons do in their temples? With Joseph Smith having been a 33 degree Mason, which is the highest level within the Scottish Right, why does the LDS ceremony follow so closely what they do? I think it's more of the lies that Joseph Smith perpetrated on the uneducated people of his day. All the keys, signs and penalties and the 5 points of fellowship are exactly the same!

So, you went through with the ceremony? If so, you must have done the death oaths and made the slashing marks across your throat and belly, did you not? Did it almost make you sick to your stomach?

[theway]

So, you went through with the ceremony? If so, you must have done the death oaths and made the slashing marks across your throat and belly, did you not? Did it almost make you sick to your stomach?I'm sorry??? I don't remember there ever being any "death oaths".
Perhaps you read that off of some AntiMormon site somewhere??? You just can't get those AntiMormon sites to get anything right.

[BigJulie]

So, you went through with the ceremony? If so, you must have done the death oaths and made the slashing marks across your throat and belly, did you not? Did it almost make you sick to your stomach?

I wonder how Abraham felt when he sacrificed animals and did all the slitting and cutting and burning. I wonder how God the Father felt when He allowed Christ to be nailed to the cross as a sacrifice. I wonder if they were sick to their stomach. Those sacrifices can be rough things I suppose.

I wonder if those were considered "death oaths" as you call them? I mean, there was dying going on in the sacrifice.

But no Mormon has ever died by making a covenant in the temple :)

[neverending]

I'm sorry??? I don't remember there ever being any "death oaths".
Perhaps you read that off of some AntiMormon site somewhere??? You just can't get those AntiMormon sites to get anything right.


When did you go to the temple? If it was after 1990, then you wouldn't know about such oaths since your prophet took it upon himself to remove them. Here is a bit of news for you, anyone who cares to really know what was done in the temple can research it and find out. When James and I married in the Cardston, Alberta Temple in 1971 I remember exactly what I was forced to do. It was humiliating, vile and disgusting. This was my wedding day? Vowing to have my throat slit open, to be disemboweled if I revealed any of the signs and tokens. If you say you don't remember then you attended after the major changes. But the temple rituals went way back and were the idea of J.Smith, not God! Why was the temple ceremony the same as the Masons? Are the LDS going to say that their ceremony was ordained by God, when a group that isn't from any religion performs the same rituals as the LDS? I would think this would make some stop and think.


"The completion of the temple wedding at one time involved a re-enactment of several biblical stories, including the creation and the giving of laws from Jehovah to his people. Some sources indicate this re-enactment has been changed since 1990, either removed or done on video. During the ceremony, the participants learn--I hesitate to bring this up--secret handshakes and signs. This, most agree, harkens back to Joseph Smith's involvement with Freemasonry, and many of the secrets closely parallel those of the Masons, as does the notion of the ceremony's secrecy itself. Formerly, there were dire penalties stated for revealing the secrets, including having one's throat slit or being disemboweled, again taken almost directly from the Masons. These symbolic gestures were likely the source of many insidious rumors, and in any case most of the penalties were swept away in the 1990 reform. Finally, the husbands and wives meet. There is a symbolic embrace through a veil, a final review of the vows and pledges, and the veil is lifted, leaving the couple in an embrace. The wedding itself, that is, the "sealing" of the couple, is quite standard for Judeo-Christian sects--the couple kneels before an altar, they are advised on their duties as a couple by a leader of the temple, and they are wed. This last portion is also undergone when a couple is married by proxy, that is, when a living couple stands in for one that has p***ed on, to ensure that they are sealed together in the afterlife.
Afterward, couples often choose to have a more public "ring ceremony," outside of the temple, for friends and relatives who could not attend the temple ceremony. This includes much of the standard stuff that old college chums expect to see at a wedding."
(http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1718/whats-the-story-on-secret-mormon-weddings)

[theway]

When did you go to the temple? If it was after 1990, then you wouldn't know about such oaths since your prophet took it upon himself to remove them.
I went well before that... And there weren't any death oaths... Sorry.

[theway]

I wonder how Abraham felt when he sacrificed animals and did all the slitting and cutting and burning. I wonder how God the Father felt when He allowed Christ to be nailed to the cross as a sacrifice. I wonder if they were sick to their stomach. Those sacrifices can be rough things I suppose.

I wonder if those were considered "death oaths" as you call them? I mean, there was dying going on in the sacrifice.

But no Mormon has ever died by making a covenant in the temple :)Come to think of it, I did make a death oath...



I,______, take _______to be my wife, to have and to hold from this day forward, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, till death us do part, according to God's holy law, in the presence of God I make this vow.

I have never violated that "death oath".... though I hear that some have no problem violating it.

[Apologette]

I wonder how Abraham felt when he sacrificed animals and did all the slitting and cutting and burning. I wonder how God the Father felt when He allowed Christ to be nailed to the cross as a sacrifice. I wonder if they were sick to their stomach. Those sacrifices can be rough things I suppose.

I wonder if those were considered "death oaths" as you call them? I mean, there was dying going on in the sacrifice.

But no Mormon has ever died by making a covenant in the temple :)

You know please don't bring up the ludicrous same old same old that you've done h ere in the past. Abraham wasn't dealing with Satan and interacting with him as Mormons do in their temple charades. Abraham did not sacrifice his son, and in fact if you ever bothered to read the New Testament, which I sort of doubt, you'd notice that Abraham had faith that his child would not die. You Mormons are basically messing with Satan when you go through those occult temple rites. Your choice, but don't try to p*** off as holy something so evil.

[BigJulie]

You know please don't bring up the ludicrous same old same old that you've done h ere in the past. Abraham wasn't dealing with Satan and interacting with him as Mormons do in their temple charades. Abraham did not sacrifice his son, and in fact if you ever bothered to read the New Testament, which I sort of doubt, you'd notice that Abraham had faith that his child would not die. You Mormons are basically messing with Satan when you go through those occult temple rites. Your choice, but don't try to p*** off as holy something so evil.

Abraham wasn't dealing with Satan? That's a new one. Wasn't Sodom and Gomorrah during his time?

I didn't say that Abraham sacrificed his son. I said he sacrificed ANIMALS. It was God the Father who sacrificed His Son.

These types of sacrifices were Holy. The greatest sacrifice of all--the sacrifice of the Savior, was a covenant made to us by the shedding of His blood. This is part of the scriptures and cannot be denied.

[Apologette]

Abraham wasn't dealing with Satan? That's a new one. Wasn't Sodom and Gomorrah during his time?

I didn't say that Abraham sacrificed his son. I said he sacrificed ANIMALS. It was God the Father who sacrificed His Son.

These types of sacrifices were Holy. The greatest sacrifice of all--the sacrifice of the Savior, was a covenant made to us by the shedding of His blood. This is part of the scriptures and cannot be denied.

I really think you are i g no r a n t about the New Testament. Go and read it because you really have no clue what you're talking about.

[Apologette]

Come to think of it, I did make a death oath...




I have never violated that "death oath".... though I hear that some have no problem violating it.

Who are you referring to as violating their wedding vows?

[Apologette]

I went well before that... And there weren't any death oaths... Sorry.

So you never vowed to have your life taken from you if you revealed the temple secrets? Raise your right arm to the square and tell me that.

[theway]

Who are you referring to as violating their wedding vows?
Ding... Ding.... Ding... We have a winner!

[theway]

So you never vowed to have your life taken from you if you revealed the temple secrets? Raise your right arm to the square and tell me that.No never...

[James Banta]

Come to think of it, I did make a death oath...




I have never violated that "death oath".... though I hear that some have no problem violating it.

Just when did the LDS church change the marriage ceremony to being "till death do you you part" from their perverted belief and statement that a marriage is for "Time and all eternity"? Can you even tell the truth from a lie anymore.. You deny that the pre 1990 Temple ceremony tells the participants that if they reveal the differing keys name signs and penalties that they will allow their lives to be taken in the way prescribed in the penalties? Ok I will show the ceremony where such a warming is given I will not include anything more then the penalty. Since it is no longer part of the ceremony it shouldn't be offensive to reveal. Even then I included only the section necessary to make the point added an ellipsis will be added where I broke from the lecture to go on to the next statement that speaks of the penalty. out of respect I wanted to keep this as short as possible:

ELOHIM: We will now give unto you the First Token of the Aaronic Priesthood with its accompanying name, and sign, and penalty... The execution of the Penalty is represented by placing the thumb under the left ear, the palm of the hand down, and by drawing the thumb quickly across the throat to the right ear, and dropping the hand to the side. www.lds-mormon.com/compare2.shtml

You are therefore mistaken. Maybe you actually never were included in a temple ceremony before 1990.. Maybe you just have some long term memory lose.. I don't know what else to call it I know you wouldn't lie.. IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

Ding... Ding.... Ding... We have a winner!

If I looked upon a woman is tha counted?

[Apologette]

Just when did the LDS church change the marriage ceremony to being "till death do you you part" from their perverted belief and statement that a marriage is for "Time and all eternity"? Can you even tell the truth from a lie anymore.. You deny that the pre 1990 Temple ceremony tells the participants that if they reveal the differing keys name signs and penalties that they will allow their lives to be taken in the way prescribed in the penalties? Ok I will show the ceremony where such a warming is given I will not include anything more then the penalty. Since it is no longer part of the ceremony it shouldn't be offensive to reveal. Even then I included only the section necessary to make the point added an ellipsis will be added where I broke from the lecture to go on to the next statement that speaks of the penalty. out of respect I wanted to keep this as short as possible:

ELOHIM: We will now give unto you the First Token of the Aaronic Priesthood with its accompanying name, and sign, and penalty... The execution of the Penalty is represented by placing the thumb under the left ear, the palm of the hand down, and by drawing the thumb quickly across the throat to the right ear, and dropping the hand to the side. www.lds-mormon.com/compare2.shtml

You are therefore mistaken. Maybe you actually never were included in a temple ceremony before 1990.. Maybe you just have some long term memory lose.. I don't know what else to call it I know you wouldn't lie.. IHS jim
That's a great point. Maybe theway isn't married in the temple - in fact I don't think he is. I know he once said his wife wasn't a Mormon.

[James Banta]

Nonsense the penalty had nothing to do with wedding vows.. It had everything to do with revealing the name sign or penalty of the first token of the Arronic priesthood.. Were you asleep during the ceremony? IHS jim

[Apologette]

Ding... Ding.... Ding... We have a winner!

Are you saying I have violated my wedding vows? What are you talking about? You're sick. And you have never been married in the temple right? Your wife is not a Mormon, right. Care to tell us why she hasn't converted to your cult? That's why your "vows" are until death. Ha! Your own Mormon cult, then, says you don't get to p*** go and become a god. So, now what? You'll have to divorce your wife and get another one sealed to you in the temple so you can progress to godhood! Or, if you're lucky, they will reins***ute polygamy and you can marry two more women, as Brigham said three wives were needed to progress to becoming a god. Which plant will you use?

[James Banta]

That's a great point. Maybe theway isn't married in the temple - in fact I don't think he is.

If he isn't a liar and was in the temple before 1990 he took these blood oaths.. If it was after 1990 he wouldn't know anything about them since mormons won't even talk to other mormons about them.. To say that he never took a blood oath in the temple and he was in the temple before 1990, without calling him a liar I will have to say that he was using a very old calender.. IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

If he isn't a liar and was in the temple before 1990 he took these blood oaths.. If it was after 1990 he wouldn't know anything about them since mormons won't even talk to other mormons about them.. To say that he never took a blood oath in the temple and he was in the temple before 1990, without calling him a liar I will have to say that he was using a very old calender.. IHS jim

Yes he did, but hey TBMs suffer from alot of dementia when it comes to LDS history they wish to forget.

[Apologette]

If he isn't a liar and was in the temple before 1990 he took these blood oaths.. If it was after 1990 he wouldn't know anything about them since mormons won't even talk to other mormons about them.. To say that he never took a blood oath in the temple and he was in the temple before 1990, without calling him a liar I will have to say that he was using a very old calender.. IHS jim

I don't know about his endowments, but since his kids are grown men he surely took his endowment before 1990.

[Apologette]

Yes he did, but hey TBMs suffer from alot of dementia when it comes to LDS history they wish to forget.

They "lie for the Lord." Even though it is hard for Christians to deal with this, we have to conclude that much of what we see here is plainly lies. I had a Mormon once tell me it was perfectly okay to "lie for the Lord." This is the garbage they learn in their meeting houses.

[neverending]

Julie, there is a huge difference between the sacrificing of animals then people, unless you belong to PETA. As for human sacrifice, did you ever hear of the Danites? They were a ruthless band of men who Brigham Young chose, the head of the group being Porter Rockwell. When a member wasn't living as Young thought, the Danites would be sent out in the dead of night and that poor man would be dragged out of his home and his throat slit. Young said that that was the only way for that man to atone, to have his blood split on the ground. How is that leaning on the shed blood of Jesus Christ?

[Apologette]

Julie, there is a huge difference between the sacrificing of animals then people, unless you belong to PETA. As for human sacrifice, did you ever hear of the Danites? They were a ruthless band of men who Brigham Young chose, the head of the group being Porter Rockwell. When a member wasn't living as Young thought, the Danites would be sent out in the dead of night and that poor man would be dragged out of his home and his throat slit. Young said that that was the only way for that man to atone, to have his blood split on the ground. How is that leaning on the shed blood of Jesus Christ?
And, lest we forget, it was Joseph Smith who ordered Porter Rockwell to go to Missouri and shoot Governor Boggs. However, even though Rockwell directly fired at Boggs, he was unable to kill him - just wounded him. It was this act of cowardness that eventually led to Smith's arrest, along with the Nauvoo Expositor fiasco!

[Apologette]

Are you saying I have violated my wedding vows? What are you talking about? You're sick. And you have never been married in the temple right? Your wife is not a Mormon, right. Care to tell us why she hasn't converted to your cult? That's why your "vows" are until death. Ha! Your own Mormon cult, then, says you don't get to p*** go and become a god. So, now what? You'll have to divorce your wife and get another one sealed to you in the temple so you can progress to godhood! Or, if you're lucky, they will reins ti tute polygamy and you can marry two more women, as Brigham said three wives were needed to progress to becoming a god. Which plant will you use?
Well, NOTtheway, man up and respond!

[Apologette]

Oh, so sad Apollogette.

As having gone to the temple many times, what I have learned is that the temple covenants are a gift that if lived improve your life. I know this with a surety. Those who try to discredit it have not experienced the joy and peace ***ociated with it.

God is a ritualistic God. He always has been. You can see it with the sacrifice of animals in the beginning. You can see it with baptisms and Sacrament today. I believe He does this because we are not only spiritual beings, but physical beings. By attaching a physical ritual to a spiritual covenant, it helps us connect our physical bodies to our spiritual desires.

Going to the temple may, at first, seem different--because we are not used to being taught in such a deep ritualistic way. But I have learned and discovered for myself that it is one of the greatest gifts given to us by the Savior. Anyone who goes to the temple faithfully and lives by the covenants made therein will have a better life, will experience more joy, have more peace and be closer to God. I know this because I have lived it.

You seriously think that participating in rites with Satan improves your life?

[nrajeffreturns]

If he isn't a liar and was in the temple before 1990 he took these blood oaths..
I was in the temple both before 1990 and after 1990.

If it was after 1990 he wouldn't know anything about them since mormons won't even talk to other mormons about them.
We can talk about them all we want while we are in the temple.


To say that he never took a blood oath in the temple and he was in the temple before 1990, without calling him a liar I will have to say that he was using a very old calender.. IHS jim
I was there before 1990, Jim. Would you like to call me a liar?

[BigJulie]

You seriously think that participating in rites with Satan improves your life?

I don't participate in any rites with Satan. In the temple, we learn who we are, we learn who God is to us and we learn about why we are here. Satan is part of our earth life and as such, we are warned about him. That is all.

To the readers, to give you an idea of what Apologette does, it would be something like this:

Child: I'm hungry, can I have something to eat?

Mom: No, I've already told you, only after pick up your toys.

Apologette would then cut and past the conversation to look like this:

Child: I'm hungry, can I have something to eat?

Mom: No

And then she would accuse us of starving our children.

And if we try to point out that what she is saying is not accurate, we get accused of being liars, brainwashed, or both.

[Apologette]

I don't participate in any rites with Satan. In the temple, we learn who we are, we learn who God is to us and we learn about why we are here. Satan is part of our earth life and as such, we are warned about him. That is all.

To the readers, to give you an idea of what Apologette does, it would be something like this:

Child: I'm hungry, can I have something to eat?

Mom: No, I've already told you, only after pick up your toys.

Apologette would then cut and past the conversation to look like this:

Child: I'm hungry, can I have something to eat?

Mom: No

And then she would accuse us of starving our children.

And if we try to point out that what she is saying is not accurate, we get accused of being liars, brainwashed, or both.

You are a willing participant in rites which portray Satan. How do you think the True and Living God feels about honoring Satan in your pagan temples/

[nrajeffreturns]

... did you ever hear of the Danites?
Did YOU ever hear the true story that debunks and refutes the myth that you have allowed yourself to believe about them?


They were a ruthless band of men who Brigham Young chose, the head of the group being Porter Rockwell. When a member wasn't living as Young thought, the Danites would be sent out in the dead of night and that poor man would be dragged out of his home and his throat slit.
Riiight, and you can name these victims, and can tell us their death dates, as evidence, right?
"The sheer amount of material that undermines anti-Mormon treatments of blood atonement is staggering, and largely unknown even to those who are well-read in Mormon history....."


http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/publications/dead-men-tell-no-tales

[BigJulie]

You are a willing participant in rites which portray Satan. How do you think the True and Living God feels about honoring Satan in your pagan temples/

As noted, we don't. This is just an avid part of your imagination.

[nrajeffreturns]

As noted, we don't. This is just an avid part of your imagination.

An avid, and caustic, part.....

[RealFakeHair]

I don't participate in any rites with Satan. In the temple, we learn who we are, we learn who God is to us and we learn about why we are here. Satan is part of our earth life and as such, we are warned about him. That is all.

To the readers, to give you an idea of what Apologette does, it would be something like this:

Child: I'm hungry, can I have something to eat?

Mom: No, I've already told you, only after pick up your toys.

Apologette would then cut and past the conversation to look like this:

Child: I'm hungry, can I have something to eat?

Mom: No

And then she would accuse us of starving our children.

And if we try to point out that what she is saying is not accurate, we get accused of being liars, brainwashed, or both.

Did the mormon Satan warn you against those really bad preachers too?

[BigJulie]

Did the mormon Satan warn you against those really bad preachers too?

God shows us that Satan desires to hurt us. That is all. Part of understanding who we are to God is to understand why we are here on earth. And one of those reasons is to be tried and tested.

[RealFakeHair]

God shows us that Satan desires to hurt us. That is all. Part of understanding who we are to God is to understand why we are here on earth. And one of those reasons is to be tried and tested.

Looks like the mormon Satan did a good ***. To this day you refuse the Holy Spirit of the Holy Bible to enter your heart.
I understand though, mormonism is a conterfeit christian religion, and if it were a conterfeit dollar bill even the best of Secret Service agents might be fool.

[James Banta]

God shows us that Satan desires to hurt us. That is all. Part of understanding who we are to God is to understand why we are here on earth. And one of those reasons is to be tried and tested.

Doesn't God know all things? If He does then doesn't he know how we will handle our tests and trials? You need to come up with a better reason for why we experience such tests and trials.. How about this for a reason for them..

James 1:2-3
My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

Seems that our trials have more to do with building the believer up than proving anything to God.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

Doesn't God know all things? If He does then doesn't he know how we will handle our tests and trials? You need to come up with a better reason for why we experience such tests and trials.. How about this for a reason for them..

James 1:2-3
My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

Seems that our trials have more to do with building the believer up than proving anything to God.. IHS jim

He, of course knows. The point is, we don't know. Would you prefer God judge you prior to you doing anything because he knows what you would do?

[BigJulie]

Looks like the mormon Satan did a good ***. To this day you refuse the Holy Spirit of the Holy Bible to enter your heart.
I understand though, mormonism is a conterfeit christian religion, and if it were a conterfeit dollar bill even the best of Secret Service agents might be fool.

I am quite familiar with the Holy Spirit of the Bible. Your accusations tells me only that you do not know my heart and see yourself as my judge.

[RealFakeHair]

I am quite familiar with the Holy Spirit of the Bible. Your accusations tells me only that you do not know my heart and see yourself as my judge.

Why of course, the Holy Bible gives me that right. Once again you follow a false prophet religion, and that is your right, and as an American I fight for all religious freedoms right or wrong.

[James Banta]

Then if that is true and you feel that you can keep bringing up the sins of someone who can not even defend himself, then why do you complain when someone brings up your past sins???

Can you see that I have repented of my sin? Has it been confessed enough that it can be seen that I have recognized it as sin and asked God to deal with it on my behalf? If you don't think so then tell me because it was never in print in any book or history of my live or church, how did you find out about it.. Because I confessed to it, maybe? After all the words of Smith that have been recorded where is his acknowledgment that he sinned except that he excuses he used in JSH calling sin the weakness of youth, and the foibles of human nature. He even went on to deny that he had ever been guilty of any great or malignant sins. I guess trying to seduce his way into the life and heart of a married women, to him was not a malignant sin. And Smith didn't do that one just one occasion but history tells us that he did this with at least 10 others (http://wivesofjosephsmith.org/)..

I am not complaining of bring up my past sins as long as it is understood that they are PAST.. That repentance has been made and through faith that "If we confess our sin He (Jesus) is faithful and just to forgive our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9).. Until you can show that Smith was a repentant sinner I will shout his name along those such as Cain, king Saul, and Judas.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

Why of course, the Holy Bible gives me that right. Once again you follow a false prophet religion, and that is your right, and as an American I fight for all religious freedoms right or wrong.

And the Pharisees believed that they were chosen and that their scriptures gave them "that right" as well, to judge Christ---but, they were wrong.

[James Banta]

Here I disagree. The sin also hurt your wife and others (children, family)---as we can clearly see from this thread. My prayers are with her that she may heal from this hurt. You clearly have done the hard work of repentance. But---we really need to get away from this and back to the subject at hand...temples....we diverged with the subject of chast ity.

I will let you get back to your criticisms of my beliefs and actions (of temple attendance) ;)

I have said that my sin hurt many.. But I still maintain as David did that I have sinned against God and only against God. Remember David had a man killed because of his sin and still he said that his sin was only against God.. I pulled that directly from scripture (Psalm 51:4) as I often to in my posts.. Sad you didn't recognize it..

You want to get back to temples.. Have you shown where the Church was ever recorded as building a temple? Have you shown anything about a washing, anointing, a endowment ceremony ever taught in any writings from the first or even second century Church authority? Since the keys, signs, and penalties are held in sacred oaths of secrecy, I can excuse their absence in the Biblical text, BUT I can't excuse the total absence of the mention that a temple building ever existed or that temple ceremonies was ever conducted.. Seems the LDS don't mind saying that there is a ceremony as long as the discussion stops at that.. Need I show you all the published evidence that that LDS church has published in books and magazines and on the internet testifies of that fact? And yet there is nothing in all the writings of the Lords true apostles that suggests that a temple was ever built, or any ceremony was ever conducted anywhere in the Church that is said had more truth than what they had taught in the Bible.. You are on unsupportable ground to make any such ***ertion. Before the temple at Nauvoo was built no such ceremony conducted in any LDS temple as is conducted today. It is a strange coincidence that the temple ceremony was revealed just after Smith gained the sublime 33rd degree in the Scottish rite of the Masonic order.. And it is just a coincidence that all the names, keys, signs, and tokens, used in the temple ceremony, including the five points of fellowship are identical to the Masonic order's ceremony.. And you condemn us for our disbelief about the temple having anything to do with God's plans.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

I have said that my sin hurt many.. But I still maintain as David did that I have sinned against God and only against God.

David said his sin was ONLY against God? Even after killing a man (well, he actually had many killed in order to kill that one.) Please, give me the scripture you are referring to. I think Ur and others might say--nah, your sin hurt me too, destroyed my life even. I understand that because Christ atoned for our sins, it is his forgiveness we must seek---but I see that Jesus Christ puts stipulations on that repentance that one needs to make amends (for example, if you stole something, you need to return it, etc.) to the others we have hurt---I mean, loving others is a pretty big part of loving him and so I don't think one could claim to love him and ignore the hurt they have caused to another. You would agree, right?


Remember David had a man killed because of his sin and still he said that his sin was only against God.. I pulled that directly from scripture (Psalm 51:4) as I often to in my posts.. Sad you didn't recognize it.. You are right, I pulled up Psalms 54:1 and still do not know what you are talking about.



You want to get back to temples.. Have you shown where the Church was ever recorded as building a temple? Have you shown anything about a washing, anointing, a endowment ceremony.. Since the keys, signs, and penalties are held in sacred oaths of secrecy, I can excuse their absence in the Biblical text, BUT I can excuse total absence of the mention that a temple building ever existed or that temple ceremonies was ever conducted.. Seems the LDS don't mind saying that there is a ceremony as long as the discussion stops at that.. Need I show you all the published evidence that that LDS church has published in books and magazines and will as on the internet testifies of that fact? And yet there is nothing in all the writings of the Lords true apostles that suggests that a temple was ever built, or any ceremony was ever conducted anywhere in the Church that is said had more truth than what they had taught in the Bible, ever existed.. You are on unsupportable ground to make that ***ertion. Before the temple at Nauvoo was built was there any such ceremony conducted in any LDS temple as is conducted today. It is a strange coincidence that the temple ceremony was revealed just after Smith gained the sublime 33rd degree in the Scottish rite of the Masonic order.. And it is just a coincidence that all the names, keys, signs, and tokens, used in the temple ceremony, including the five points of fellowship are identical to the Masonic order's ceremony.. And you condemn us for our disbelief about the temple having anything to do with God's plans.. IHS jim

I am not worried about the Masonic order (yes, I am aware of it). If you want to see other strange coincidences, look at our graduation ceremonies--but then one has to ask the question, where did these ceremonies begin? Look at how they inaugurate a king. And why on earth do we shake hands as a way of greeting someone? Where did that strange tradition begin---why not just bow or something?

What I also understand through going through the temple is that I know more about who I am. I have the spirit stronger. Going to the temple helps me live a better life. I am more connected to my children and my parents and my grandparents (and so on). The fruit of the temple is peace.

[James Banta]

James, I agree that all sin is serious in the eyes of God. I also understand that you recognize that this sin was more serious for you because to overcome it took more faith and more work on your part. But, I have told your wife that I will not discuss this anymore. It seems still a very tender spot for her (something I did not understand...in fact, I thought Apologette was your wife, as I remember your wife was a member here...just didn't remember who.)

I think the way asked some good questions then..that I guess you also see Joseph Smith on the exact same plain as yourself as you would not see his sins any different than yours in the eyes of God. As to you, one sinner is like the next and we all need Christ to save us. I completely agree, we all need Christ to save us. The problem is--Joseph Smith revealed this to us many times as well, so clearly, he understood and looked to Christ for salvation. He also understood that some sins take more work than others to overcome (through faith) just as you demonstrated and have taught in this thread.

For not being willing to rub salt in my wife's wounds you seem very willing to keep the subject going.. I told you that I have no power to take her pain away.. Only God can do that and it will most likely take the rest of her life.. She didn't cause this, I DID.. She doesn't deserve to have mormons torment her for my sin. So after we have agreed that "all sin is serious in the eyes of God" and that I have confessed this and proven that I see it as very serious and that it hurt her and others why is it that it has to remain the subject of your posts.. That is unless you deny that a person can repent and I have to live with a scarlet letter all my life? Isn't that a denial that a person can be forgiven of this sin? Wouldn't that cause a lot of damage even in your church.. I am not alone in ever having committed adultery. I seem to hear that a leaders of the LDS church has become involved in what all but a Christian would see as even a more serious crimes.. One of which is child porn.. Should we use that to brand all of mormonism as being false? Shall we drag up the marriages of Joseph Smith to married women again? Once it is established there is no reason to beat it to death.. Either he repented of such sin or he didn't.. I can tell you with ***urity that I have repented confessing my sin even to the world. But Smith? It isn't recorded anywhere that he saw any of his marriages as being sin.. Not to virgins and not to married women, not even to little girls less than 18. Fanny Algier was 14 years old, Smith was in his 30's.. Did he confess that as sin? Not that I ever heard.. After all his adultery was commanded by God.. Yeah right.. It was commanded by his own lust.. IHS jim

[Sir]

For not being willing to rub salt in my wife's wounds you seem very willing to keep the subject going.. I told you that I have no power to take her pain away.. Only God can do that and it will most likely take the rest of her life.. She didn't cause this, I DID.. She doesn't deserve to have mormons torment her for my sin. So after we have agreed that "all sin is serious in the eyes of God" and that I have confessed this and proven that I see it as very serious and that it hurt her and others why is it that it has to remain the subject of your posts.. That is unless you deny that a person can repent and I have to live with a scarlet letter all my life? Isn't that a denial that a person can be forgiven of this sin? Wouldn't that cause a lot of damage even in your church.. I am not alone in ever having committed adultery. I seem to hear that a leaders of the LDS church has become involved in what all but a Christian would see as even a more serious crimes.. One of which is child porn.. Should we use that to brand all of mormonism as being false? Shall we drag up the marriages of Joseph Smith to married women again? Once it is established there is no reason to beat it to death.. Either he repented of such sin or he didn't.. I can tell you with ***urity that I have repented confessing my sin even to the world. But Smith? It isn't recorded anywhere that he saw any of his marriages as being sin.. Not to virgins and not to married women, not even to little girls less than 18. Fanny Algier was 14 years old, Smith was in his 30's.. Did he confess that as sin? Not that I ever heard.. After all his adultery was commanded by God.. Yeah right.. It was commanded by his own lust.. IHS jim

Here's the problem.

It isn't about us forgiving you of your sins, Jim. Not our ***. We bring up your past when you guys bring up the past sins of others.

You are only trying to justify talking about other peoples' past sins by claiming you don't know if they repented or not.

You and your wife are constantly talking about how terrible the Mormons have all been in your life, especially from 33+ years ago. You seem okay with pointing out the foibles of others but get mad when people talk about your past.

[BigJulie]

For not being willing to rub salt in my wife's wounds you seem very willing to keep the subject going.. I told you that I have no power to take her pain away.. Only God can do that and it will most likely take the rest of her life.. She didn't cause this, I DID.. She doesn't deserve to have mormons torment her for my sin. So after we have agreed that "all sin is serious in the eyes of God" and that I have confessed this and proven that I see it as very serious and that it hurt her and others why is it that it has to remain the subject of your posts.. That is unless you deny that a person can repent and I have to live with a scarlet letter all my life? Isn't that a denial that a person can be forgiven of this sin? Wouldn't that cause a lot of damage even in your church.. I am not alone in ever having committed adultery. I seem to hear that a leaders of the LDS church has become involved in what all but a Christian would see as even a more serious crimes.. One of which is child porn.. Should we use that to brand all of mormonism as being false? Shall we drag up the marriages of Joseph Smith to married women again? Once it is established there is no reason to beat it to death.. Either he repented of such sin or he didn't.. I can tell you with ***urity that I have repented confessing my sin even to the world. But Smith? It isn't recorded anywhere that he saw any of his marriages as being sin.. Not to virgins and not to married women.. IHS jim

I've only responded to your continued posts about it. And if you notice, I only refer in vague terms as to what we are speaking about.

James, you seem to be able to remove any of your own responsibility pretty well. Mormons are only discussing it because you brought it up and continue to bring it up. In fact, I hadn't been on here in ages and came back to see you mention my name in conjunction with it and I had never condemned you for it---you were make false accusations against me.

I do not think you are living with a scarlet letter. I have said I think you have shown you have repented. You only brought up your repentance process as I was noting that YOU were the one claiming that all sins are the same in the eyes of God and I stated, boy--that sure would bother me if I was your wife and you acted like my sin of a white lie was the same as others (which will not be mentioned).

James, really-what I see is how damaging and hurtful some sins can be. I think that, while all sins remove us from God, there are definitely ones that cause more damage and more hurt. (And just to give you another possible opinion, when I shared with my husband our posts back and forth, he said--"whew, he shared that with his congregation--was that a p***ive aggressive behavior against his wife? Was that to get back at her for something she had done?"....so you may want to realize that not everyone looks at such confessions as a measure of faith, but possibly a measure of selfishness.)

There is no denial that a person can be forgiven of their sins including this one. I think one thing interesting I have witnessed regarding "Christians' is that they tend to get up and do a "look how bad I was" approach to their sins. I have been to multiple gatherings where a convert gets up and does the "lets walk through how really bad I was before I converted" story. To me, it almost comes across like a brag session--the drugs I did, the sleeping around I did, etc. I know for me, when I repent--the sin is gone. I don't discuss it anymore. I am forgiven, it is forgotten. Why would I bring it up? So, this is a part of "Christianity" that I do not really understand.

Yes, leaders in the LDS faith have committed adultery. It does happen--yes, and some even with more serious crimes. And guess what, we do see these as more serious and the consequences are more serious as a result. Umm, not sure where you are getting the sins of one makes us brand all else false. We were only discussing how we view sin--not that we view religions based on the sinners themselves.

I am not trying to beat this dead horse. If you will note, you are the one who keeps bringing it up over and over. I am not sure why you want to do that. But if you do, I will respond, but never mention any particular sin.

Here is something you and others may find interesting though. My husband is a therapist and as such--is trained to understand what people's issues are. When I was on another site, the moderator kept harping on Joseph Smith's "adultery". My husband read one of his posts and said, there is a man who has struggled with adultery in his life. He can't let it go because it is his issue. Well, I asked, and sure enough, it was.

So, ask yourself--what can't you let go of. When you complain about Mormons, what makes up your threads? I really believe it when Christ states "out of thine own mouth, I will judge thee"---because we really can see what a persons problems are by what they complain about in others.

[James Banta]

[BigJulie;150691]David said his sin was ONLY against God? Even after killing a man (well, he actually had many killed in order to kill that one.) Please, give me the scripture you are referring to. I think Ur and others might say--nah, your sin hurt me too, destroyed my life even. I understand that because Christ atoned for our sins, it is his forgiveness we must seek---but I see that Jesus Christ puts stipulations on that repentance that one needs to make amends (for example, if you stole something, you need to return it, etc.) to the others we have hurt---I mean, loving others is a pretty big part of loving him and so I don't think one could claim to love him and ignore the hurt they have caused to another. You would agree, right?

Yes I understood that from the beginning and as I came to my senses I confessed and apologized for my sin against all involved.. It was confessed to far ,ore people than I though necessary but still it was confessed.. Since I can't return the trust I took I could only confess and apologize.. It is not right for you to claim that I didn't do all I could.. But I still see it a not enough to deserve their forgiveness.. That I could never manage.. God will have to do it.. So tell me how can I ever restore the trust I stole? It isn't like giving them money or property I took from them.. All I could do was apologize..

You are right, I pulled up Psalms 54:1 and still do not know what you are talking about.

If you looked at Psalm 54:1 then you didn't look at the verse I suggested.. I told you that I got my authority from Psalm 51:4.. You twisted the numbers.. I didn't change my post. Look at where you quoted my post in your posting and see for yourself.. I could change what I first posted yes, but there is no way I can change your copy of what I said.. It was Psalm 51:4 the whole time.. Here is what it says since you are having trouble finding it. I will use the NASB to make it's mean more able to be understood being in modern English:

Psalm 51:4
Against You, You only, I have sinned And done what is evil in Your sight, So that You are justified when You speak And blameless when You judge.

Maybe now you can understand what I was saying.. Maybe not sometimes the LDS deny the scripture such as you do with James 2:10..


I am not worried about the Masonic order (yes, I am aware of it). If you want to see other strange coincidences, look at our graduation ceremonies--but then one has to ask the question, where did these ceremonies begin? Look at how they inaugurate a king. And why on earth do we shake hands as a way of greeting someone? Where did that strange tradition begin---why not just bow or something?

What is this you are comparing casual tradition with the sacred that can only be found inside a temple? You missed one.. The salute.. That had a beginning in the days of armored knights, lifting their face shields to be identified by another knight as they p***ed, SO WHAT! It had nothings to do with keys, signs , names , and penalties that would allow people to advance to God in an exalted state does it? There is nothings sacred or secret in any of these traditions now is there.. You are comparing firecrackers with atom bombs AGAIN..


What I also understand through going through the temple is that I know more about who I am. I have the spirit stronger. Going to the temple helps me live a better life. I am more connected to my children and my parents and my grandparents (and so on). The fruit of the temple is peace.

JESUS is the Prince of PEACE. In Him we find Peace not is a ceremony or a building.. Again the Bile teaches that we have PEACE with God in Jesus..

Romans 5:1-2 That is 5:1-2 not 1:5-6 ok?
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

If your peace come through anything but Jesus you have no peace at all.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE=James Banta;150702]It is not right for you to claim that I didn't do all I could.. Never once have I claimed that--but by now, I am getting used to you misreading my posts. No problem.


If you looked at Psalm 54:1 then you didn't look at the verse I suggested.. I told you that I got my authority from Psalm 51:4.. You twisted the numbers.. Ahh, just got it right. Yes, I have seen that verse before---but I think you are mistaking David--I don't think he would ever say to Ur...I did not cause your problem.


I didn't change my post. Look at where you quoted my post in your posting and see for yourself.. I could change what I first posted yes, but there is no way I can change your copy of what I said.. It was Psalm 51:4 the whole time.. Here is what it says since you are having trouble finding it. I will use the NASB to make it's mean more able to be understood being in modern English:

Psalm 51:4
Against You, You only, I have sinned And done what is evil in Your sight, So that You are justified when You speak And blameless when You judge.

Maybe now you can understand what I was saying.. Maybe not sometimes the LDS deny the scripture such as you do with James 2:10..

You read this differently than me....I read this as David saying that whatever Christ decides to do as punishment is just and recognizes that He atoned (will atone) for him. But, I also am sure that David recognizes that Christ does expect us to show love to others as a way to please Him.





What is this you are comparing casual tradition with the sacred that can only be found inside a temple? You missed one.. The salute.. That had a beginning in the days of armored knights, lifting their face shields to be identified by another knight as they p***ed, SO WHAT! It had nothings to do with keys, signs , names , and penalties that would allow people to advance to God in an exalted state does it? There is nothings sacred or secret in any of these traditions now is there.. You are comparing firecrackers with atom bombs AGAIN.. Umm, if you can't see similarities, I can't help you.




JESUS is the Prince of PEACE. In Him we find Peace not is a ceremony or a building.. Again the Bile teaches that we have PEACE with God in Jesus.. Yup, as we follow Him. Doing such things as baptism and the sacrament (both rituals)


Romans 5:1-2 That is 5:1-2 not 1:5-6 ok?
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Yup.


If your peace come through anything but Jesus you have no peace at all.. IHS jim And in the temple, we learn of who we are to God and what Christ has done for us. We connect with Him. And that is where the peace lies. Not unlike taking the Sacrament---the peace comes with Christ, but the ritual helps connect our physical bodies to our spiritual desire to love Him.

[James Banta]

Here's the problem.

It isn't about us forgiving you of your sins, Jim. Not our ***. We bring up your past when you guys bring up the past sins of others.

You are only trying to justify talking about other peoples' past sins by claiming you don't know if they repented or not.

You and your wife are constantly talking about how terrible the Mormons have all been in your life, especially from 33+ years ago. You seem okay with pointing out the foibles of others but get mad when people talk about your past.

You do that it's a great way for me to show that Smith was unrepentant, compared to me who is repentant.. By doing that you keep dragging the name of Joseph Smith through the mud.. Everyone knows the difference between someone who repented of their sins and one who has not, so go ahead.. I will continue to shown by Smith's own words that he both lied and committed adultery yet never repented.. This is not a problem for me.. One thing it does is hurt my wife and since there is no repentance of that from you I hold that against you as sin..

Smith sin wasn't even confessed. Because there is record of the sin but no record of confession it is clear that such a confession never existed.. Can you come up with one.. I surely can't present that which doesn't exist.. If you say such a thing does exist show us.. I know you can't..

I am not mad about you talking about me.. Just what more can you say? Even you know that I have confessed the sin.. So blast away. Be a Satan in accusing me. I have Jesus who will say that He died and paid the price of my sin and though my repentance He has taken that sin on Himself and given me His righteousness (2 Corinthians 5:21). Just what reference do you have that shows that confessed sin, Sin that is repented of can't be forgiven? None? Thought so.. IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

BigJulie (quote) And in the temple, we learn of who we are to God and what Christ has done for us. We connect with Him. And that is where the peace lies. Not unlike taking the Sacrament---the peace comes with Christ, but the ritual helps connect our physical bodies to our spiritual desire to love Him


(RFH) I have no doubt you connect with your mormon god and one of his son's. However your mormon god is not the Christian God of the Holy Bible, so this is apples and oranges to us.

[James Banta]

[BigJulie;150705][QUOTE] Never once have I claimed that--but by now, I am getting used to you misreading my posts. No problem.

Excuse me but wasn't it you that was talking about making rest itution for sin? You never answered telling me what else I can do to make that resti tution. Now you claim that I am not understanding.. Which is it I needed to make resti tution or I misread your post?


Ahh, just got it right. Yes, I have seen that verse before---but I think you are mistaking David--I don't think he would ever say to Ur...I did not cause your problem.

Ok How could David make a resti tution for his sin? He had a man killed.. And took his wife.. And still he said that he sinned against God and only against God.. So by that example who can I say I sinned against, you maybe. You act like I did this to you.


You read this differently than me....I read this as David saying that whatever Christ decides to do as punishment is just and recognizes that He atoned (will atone) for him. But, I also am sure that David recognizes that Christ does expect us to show love to others as a way to please Him.

You really deny that David was a believe and looked to God to follow Him in all of his ways? Why did God call David a man after His own heart? Didn't God in His foreknowledge know that David would sin? Why then say that He was man after His own heart? You aren't making sense here.. You are ignoring the first part of the reference completely.. I will agree that David was saying that he was open to any judgment God ordained for him, but that doesn't change the beginning of the p***age that clearly says that against God and God alone did he sin..


Umm, if you can't see similarities, I can't help you.

No I can't see that these similarities have anything to do with Smith taking what he learned from the Masons and making it part of a new temple ceremony that didn't exist until that time.. There was no such ordinances being done in Kirkland, and yet that temple was said to be accepted by God in the appearance Elijah turning the hearts of the fathers to the son and the sons to the fathers.. Yet not one ordinance for the dead was preformed in that building.. There was no ceremony. It was nothing more than what today you would call a Tabernacle.. Just a large what I would call a sanctuary, or a chapel.. There wasn't even a baptismal faunt..


Yup, as we follow Him. Doing such things as baptism and the sacrament (both rituals)

And that is all you do in your temples.. Be careful there.. I have been in the temple doing my own endowment work and that of others that had died.. Never once was there a baptism done in that ceremony, It was all done by some LDS children weeks if not months before.. Baptisms in the LDS church are conducted in any body of water large enough for emerging to take place.. A temple in NOT the exclusive place for that ordinance. The Sacrament is NEVER offered in the temple. Not before the endowment and not after.. All the endowment offers are the rituals stolen from what Smith learned from his Masonic experience..


Yup.

If you agree so easily then you should be able to have the peace that surp***ed all understanding just knowing that JESUS HAS MADE YOU HIS.. No building, no ceremony should be able to give you what He died to give to you.. If you can't have His peace without that building around you is it really Jesus you trust or is it the building and the ritual that you trust?


And in the temple, we learn of who we are to God and what Christ has done for us. We connect with Him. And that is where the peace lies. Not unlike taking the Sacrament---the peace comes with Christ, but the ritual helps connect our physical bodies to our spiritual desire to love Him.

In His word Christian learn who we are before a Holy God. We see what God did for us in Jesus. We understand how we can be His children, and know for sure that we have His complete forgiveness.. That we have eternal life.. He is our peace and we don't need buildings or ritual to support that. We trust HIM and we trust the word He preserved for us.. The Bible tells us not to look in the inner rooms for Him. You can't find him there He tells us:

Matthew 24:23-26
Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Behold, I have told you before.
Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

You tell me you meet Jesus in your temples, your secret chambers .. I say I don't believe you.. I say that by the authority of my Lord.. IHS jim

[Apologette]

[QUOTE]

Excuse me but wasn't it you that was talking about making rest itution for sin? You never answered telling me what else I can do to make that resti tution. Now you claim that I am not understanding.. Which is it you never said I needed to make resti tution or I misread your post?



Ok How could David make a resti tution for his sin? He had a man killed.. And took his wife.. And still he said that he sinned against God and only against God.. So by that example who can I say I sinned against, you maybe. You act like I did this to you.



You really deny that David was a believe and looked to God to follow Him in all of his ways? Why did God call David a man after His own heart? Didn't God in His
foreknowledge know that David would sin? Why then say that He was man after His own heart? You aren't making sense here.. You are ignoring the first part of the reference completely.. I will agree that David was saying that he was open to any judgment God ordained for him, but that doesn't change the beginning of the p***age that clearly says that against God and God alone did he sin..



No I can't see that these similarities have anything to do with Smith taking what he learned from the Masons and making it part of a new temple ceremony that didn't exist until that time.. There was no such ordinances being done in Kirkland, and yet that temple was said to be accepted by God in the appearance Elijah turning the hearts of the fathers to the son and the sons to the fathers.. Yet not one ordinance for the dead was preformed in that building.. There was no ceremony. It was nothing more than what today you would call a Tabernacle.. Just a large what I would call a sanctuary, or a chapel.. There wasn't even a baptismal faunt..



And that is all you do in your temples.. Be careful there.. I have been in the temple doing my own endowment work and that of others that had died.. Never once was there a baptism done in that ceremony, It was all done by some LDS children weeks if not months before.. Baptisms in the LDS church are conducted in any body of water large enough for emerging to take place.. A temple in NOT the exclusive place for that ordinance. The Sacrament is NEVER offered in the temple. Not before the endowment and not after.. All the endowment offers are the rituals stolen from what Smith learned from his Masonic experience..

[B]Yup.

If you agree so easily then you should be able to have the peace that surp***ed all understanding just knowing that JESUS HAS MADE YOU HIS.. No building, no ceremony should be able to give you what He died to give to you.. If you can't have His peace without that building around you is it really Jesus you trust or is it the building and the ritual that you trust?



In His word Christian learn who we are before a Holy God. We see what God did for us in Jesus. We understand how we can be His children, and know for sure that we have His complete forgiveness.. That we have eternal life.. He is our peace and we don't need buildings or ritual to support that. We trust HIM and we trust the word He preserved for us.. The Bible tells us not to look in the inner rooms for Him. You can't find him there He tells us:

Matthew 24:23-26
Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Behold, I have told you before.
Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

You tell me you meet Jesus in your temples, your secret chambers .. I say I don't believe you.. I say that by the authority of my Lord.. IHS jim

Absolutely true Jim!

[Apologette]

[QUOTE] Never once have I claimed that--but by now, I am getting used to you misreading my posts. No problem.

Ahh, just got it right. Yes, I have seen that verse before---but I think you are mistaking David--I don't think he would ever say to Ur...I did not cause your problem.



You read this differently than me....I read this as David saying that whatever Christ decides to do as punishment is just and recognizes that He atoned (will atone) for him. But, I also am sure that David recognizes that Christ does expect us to show love to others as a way to please Him.




Umm, if you can't see similarities, I can't help you.



Yup, as we follow Him. Doing such things as baptism and the sacrament (both rituals)

Yup.

And in the temple, we learn of who we are to God and what Christ has done for us. We connect with Him. And that is where the peace lies. Not unlike taking the Sacrament---the peace comes with Christ, but the ritual helps connect our physical bodies to our spiritual desire to love Him.

In the "temple" you commune with demons.

[BigJulie]

In the "temple" you commune with demons.

No, I don't.

Your turn.

[Apologette]

No, I don't.

Your turn.

You think that the similarity between Mormon and Masonic rites is a coincidence? Are you serious. Joe and Hyrum were both Masons, and Joey became a Master Mason just a few weeks before creating his "endowment" rite. Are you that naive, really?

[James Banta]

[BigJulie;150694]I've only responded to your continued posts about it. And if you notice, I only refer in vague terms as to what we are speaking about.

James, you seem to be able to remove any of your own responsibility pretty well. Mormons are only discussing it because you brought it up and continue to bring it up. In fact, I hadn't been on here in ages and came back to see you mention my name in conjunction with it and I had never condemned you for it---you were make false accusations against me.

If leaving the forum is an evil thing to do then I was making a false accusation about you.. You left right as sir pointed my sin out
to you.. What else could be thought other that you to too discussed to go on.. It didn't matter but you still left without a word why.. So it was up to us to guess of what was the most plausible reason..

You say I brought it up.. NO, I didn't that again was sir.. So was he just gossiping or was he attempting character ******ination. I guess it turned out to be gossip since all he could do is whisper about sin that had been dealt with over a decade ago.. I accuse sir as being a gossip spreading juicy little peaces of dirt on anyone he can find especially if they aren't LDS.. To spread old old news that has been dealt with in repentance years ago as though it happened yesterday is contemptible. You shouldn't be shocked at my behavior but at his..


I do not think you are living with a scarlet letter. I have said I think you have shown you have repented. You only brought up your repentance process as I was noting that YOU were the one claiming that all sins are the same in the eyes of God and I stated, boy--that sure would bother me if I was your wife and you acted like my sin of a white lie was the same as others (which will not be mentioned).

I make no claim for that authorship about how terrible any crime against God is.. That came from the Holy Spirit to the Apostle James.. You must know that by now.. If you believe the p***ages in that same context that teaches that faith without works is dead, why would you deny the doctrine that teaches us that if we keep the whole law but offend in one point we are guilty of it all? Fine, pick and choose the parts of the Bible you will believe and call those that believe all God's word wrong. To teach that people that believe all the Bible make lite of the truth because you disagree with a p***age of scripture to me sounds like something an atheist would say.. I can't understand how you can deny any of God's word, but that is me, Trust God, trust His promises.. I'm funny that way.. I don't believe the Bible is corrupt like mormonism teaches it is.. I believe that even James 2 is God's word..


James, really-what I see is how damaging and hurtful some sins can be. I think that, while all sins remove us from God, there are definitely ones that cause more damage and more hurt. (And just to give you another possible opinion, when I shared with my husband our posts back and forth, he said--"whew, he shared that with his congregation--was that a p***ive aggressive behavior against his wife? Was that to get back at her for something she had done?"....so you may want to realize that not everyone looks at such confessions as a measure of faith, but possibly a measure of selfishness.)

Here is the difference.. You keep telling me how people see sin.. I keep telling you how God says He sees sin.. There is a wide difference.. His standard is very high.. He teaches us that we must be perfect as He is perfect.. Anything short of that is serious sin since it will eternally separate us from Him.. I refuse to see any sin is less serious than that.. I have showed you where murderers, adulterer, sorcerers, and ALL LIARS will find their place in the Lake of Fire.. That pretty well spells it out.. To God all sin deserves the same punishment, eternal separation from Him in the Lake of Fire.. There isn't one place that is worse than another it is all the Lake of Fire.. Last point on this.. DON'T TELL ME THAT YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN AND THEN DENY GOD'S WORD..


There is no denial that a person can be forgiven of their sins including this one. I think one thing interesting I have witnessed regarding "Christians' is that they tend to get up and do a "look how bad I was" approach to their sins. I have been to multiple gatherings where a convert gets up and does the "lets walk through how really bad I was before I converted" story. To me, it almost comes across like a brag session--the drugs I did, the sleeping around I did, etc. I know for me, when I repent--the sin is gone. I don't discuss it anymore. I am forgiven, it is forgotten. Why would I bring it up? So, this is a part of "Christianity" that I do not really understand.

One more time I didn't bring it up sir did.. I just defended myself.. If people know about the sin they need to be told if there was repentance.. Trying to get the LDS here to understand that I have repented was not easy.. I even had to show that I have touched all the bases followed all the rules.. I even showed that I went beyond what mormonism teaches about repentance in confessing to people that didn't need to know..


Yes, leaders in the LDS faith have committed adultery. It does happen--yes, and some even with more serious crimes. And guess what, we do see these as more serious and the consequences are more serious as a result. Umm, not sure where you are getting the sins of one makes us brand all else false. We were only discussing how we view sin--not that we view religions based on the sinners themselves.

Another charge that came from sir.. How could Christian speak the truth if we still sin, even the sin of adultery.. Well Julie, I couldn't speak about anything for a long time.. But when I knew that I had been forgiven I didn't see anything different about me or any other Christian calling people to repentance though faith in Jesus.. But some of you believe that the extrabiblical teaching that mormonism teaches puts them in a superior position with God.. I see that as a reason to question their religion not to see it as better.. Something to be avoided not something to aspire to..


I am not trying to beat this dead horse. If you will note, you are the one who keeps bringing it up over and over. I am not sure why you want to do that. But if you do, I will respond, but never mention any particular sin.

That is all I have been doing since sir started in on me and you added to his chorus..


Here is something you and others may find interesting though. My husband is a therapist and as such--is trained to understand what people's issues are. When I was on another site, the moderator kept harping on Joseph Smith's "adultery". My husband read one of his posts and said, there is a man who has struggled with adultery in his life. He can't let it go because it is his issue. Well, I asked, and sure enough, it was.

And I do it to draw a line of differentiation between a honest sinner who had confessed his sin to one that hasn't.. Sounds like you see Smith's sin as well as I do. Too bad he could identify it as sin and have God deal with it..


So, ask yourself--what can't you let go of. When you complain about Mormons, what makes up your threads? I really believe it when Christ states "out of thine own mouth, I will judge thee"---because we really can see what a persons problems are by what they complain about in others.

Do you see God as judging me for teaching the biblical doctrine of believing that the Lord our God is one Lord? Is there some terrible judgment because I point to Smith for teaching that we have three separate Gods? Will I be judged harshly by believing that God the Father has been God from everlasting to everlasting instead of believing that He was once a man that became God as Smith taught.. Tell me was Paul wrong to put down all the gods the Greeks worshiped? Was it wrong when Elijah scoffed at the priests of Baal? Should he had followed your teaching and respected their beliefs? I say that it is wrong to allow someone to believe in false prophets, in false teachings allowing them to march down the wide road directly into the Lake of Fire.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE=James Banta;150793]If leaven the forum is an evil thing to do then I was making a false accusation about you.. You left right as sir pointed my sin our to you.. What else could be thought other that you to too discussed to go on.. It didn't matter but you still left without a word why.. So it was up to the mot plausible reason.. You say I brought it up.. NO, I didn't that again was sir.. So was he just gossiping or was he attempting character ******ination. I guess it turned out to be gossip since all he could do is whisper about sin that had been dealt with over a decade ago.. I accuse sir as being a gossip spreading juicy little peaces of dirt on anyone he can find especially if they aren't LDS.. To spread old old news that has been dealt with in repentance years ago as though it happened yesterday is contemptible. You should be shocked at my behavior but at his.. Hmm, I see your point, but I did not leave at all for the reason you ***umed. I left because of the site being hacked--that is all. This is the problem with making ***umptions, I guess.



I make no claim for that authorship about how terrible any crime against God is.. That came from the Holy Spirit to the Apostle James.. You must know that by now.. If you believe the p***ages in that same context that tech that faith without works is dead, why would you deny the doctrine that teaches us that if we keep the whole law but offend in one point we are guilty of it all. Fine pick and choose the parts of the Bible you will believe and call those that believe all God's word wrong. To teach that people that believe all the Bible make lite of the truth because you disagree with a p***age of scripture to me sounds like something an atheist would say.. I can't understand how you can deny any of God's word, but that is me, Trust God, trust His promises.. I'm funny that way.. I don't believe the Bible is corrupt like mormonism teaches it is.. I believe that even James 2 is God's word I don't pick and choose the scriptures I believe in, I just see how they play out life. I do not deny that no sin is okay to God, but you and I read it differently that if we offend one point, we are guilty of all. I read this more to understand that all of us are of a fallen state and all of us need God's grace. That said, life teaches me that some sins are more hurtful and damaging to others. Do I take this to mean that God thinks that any sin is okay? No. But just like a parent would not think any amount of fighting among their children is okay, certainly, one can discern when one creates the bigger problem for all involved.

I do not believe the Bible is "corrupt" as you say, but that there are parts that are not interpreted correctly. That is another part that is obvious from the reading or we would not see contradictions within the writings.




here is the difference.. You keep telling me how people see sin.. I keep telling you how God says He sees sin.. There is a wide difference.. His standard is very high.. He teaches us that we must be perfect as He is perfect.. Anything short of that is serious sin since it will eternally separate us from Him.. I refuse to see any sin is less serious than that.. I have showed you where murderers, adulterer, sorcerers, and ALL LIARS will find their place in the Lake of Fire.. That pretty well spells it out.. To God all sin deserves the sames punishment, eternal separation from God in the Lake of Fire.. There isn't one place that is worse than another it is all the Lake of Fire.. Last point on this.. DON'T TELL ME THAT YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN AND THEN DENY GOD'S WORD.. I agree, we must be perfect as He is perfect. That said; he also speaks of a greater ****ation--so certainly, he recognizes a difference in sin. Do you deny God's words about that?


Mar 12:40 Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater ****ation.

Why do you think Christ speaks of a greater ****ation? You never addressed this.




One more time I didn't bring it up sir did.. I just defended myself.. If people know about the sin they need to be told if there was repentance.. Trying to get the LDS here to understand that I have repented was not easy.. I even had to show that I have touched all the bases followed all the rules.. I even showed that I went beyond what mormonism teaches about repentance in confessing to people that didn't need to know.. You obviously were the first to bring is up as no one would know if you hadn't.




And I do it to draw a line of differentiation between a honest sinner who had confessed his sin to one that hasn't.. Sounds like you see Smith's sin as well as I do. Too bad he could identify it as sin and have God deal with it.. The problem is, people are not static, they are dynamic...and as such, you can never be their judge.



Do you see God as judging me for teaching the biblical doctrine of believing that the Lord our God is one Lord? Is there some terrible judgment because I point to Smith for teaching that we have three separate Gods? Will I be judged harshly by believing that God the Father has been God from everlasting to everlasting instead of believing that He was once a man that became God as Smith taught.. Tell me was Paul wrong to put down all the gods the Greeks worshiped? Was it wrong when Elijah to scoffed at the priests of Baal? Should he had followed your teaching and respected their beliefs? I say that it is wrong to allow someone to believe in false prophets, in false teachings allowing them to march down the wide road directly into the Lake of Fire.. IHS jim You and I have a different idea of how you teach people truth. You think it is to point out their faulty beliefs. I believe it is to point out truth.

[James Banta]

[BigJulie;150795][QUOTE] Hmm, I see your point, but I did not leave at all for the reason you ***umed. I left because of the site being hacked--that is all. This is the problem with making ***umptions, I guess.

Seeing it like I did was not an attack on you..


I don't pick and choose the scriptures I believe in, I just see how they play out life. I do not deny that no sin is okay to God, but you and I read it differently that if we offend one point, we are guilty of all. I read this more to understand that all of us are of a fallen state and all of us need God's grace. That said, life teaches me that some sins are more hurtful and damaging to others. Do I take this to mean that God thinks that any sin is okay? No. But just like a parent would not think any amount of fighting among their children is okay, certainly, one can discern when one creates the bigger problem for all involved.

Since all the major translation teach it just as it is stated in the KJV I would say you are bending the scripture to say what you want it to say instead of just believing God..

James 2:10
NIV
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

NASB
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

Wycliffe Bible
And whoever keepeth all the law, but offendeth in one [Forsooth whoever shall keep all the law, soothly offend in one], he is made guilty of all.

Common English Bible
Anyone who tries to keep all of the Law but fails at one point is guilty of failing to keep all of it.

Geneva Bible
For whosoever shall keep the whole Law, and yet faileth in one point, he is guilty of all.

The problem isn't with the interpretation, it is with having or not having faith in God..



I do not believe the Bible is "corrupt" as you say, but that there are parts that are not interpreted correctly. That is another part that is obvious from the reading or we would not see contradictions within the writings.

Some people do see contradictions.. I am not one of them.. That is also a matter of believing or disbelieving God..



I agree, we must be perfect as He is perfect. That said; he also speaks of a greater ****ation--so certainly, he recognizes a difference in sin. Do you deny God's words about that?

I agree completely But that is a p***age that has a meaning that can mean most sever punishment as seen in the in the NIV while the NASB speaks of it as a greater condemnation. Can you tell me what is the harshest punishment of God? Is it not the Lake of Fire.. Then is it the most sever punishment, and the greater condemnation? What could be more harsh than that? Or should we deny one part of the Bible to support another? Are you telling me that such sins can't be forgiven.. These that deserve the greater ****ation? No? Then they are the greater ****ation only is there is no repentance and by not allowing the Holy Spirit to lead such to the cross to the blood of Jesus the commit the unpardonable sin.. Remember Rev 21:8 the unbelieving are included in that greater ****ation with ALL LIARS.. The greater ****ation is God's final judgment that sees such as they cast into the Lake of Fire.. All sin is deserving of the greater ****ation.. That is the only way it works..


Mar 12:40 Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater ****ation.

Why do you think Christ speaks of a greater ****ation? You never addressed this.


You obviously were the first to bring is up as no one would know if you hadn't.

I just did above.. I also said that I don't believe in Biblical contradiction so it must be that the greater ****ation is the harshest judgment God would judge a sinner an unconfessed sinner.. Either that or we are in conflict and that in not possible with God..


The problem is, people are not static, they are dynamic...and as such, you can never be their judge.

Looks like we are going to disagree on everything.. Again I turn to the Bible:

Ecclesiastes 1:9
The thing that has been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

This can't mean learning, or technology. How is it that there is nothing new? Men's hearts and their corruptions are the same now as in former times; their desires, and pursuits, and complaints, still the same. The natural man does nothing new. He has been evil, He will be evil, He is evil..


You and I have a different idea of how you teach people truth. You think it is to point out their faulty beliefs. I believe it is to point out truth.

You tell me in my posts that I don't present truth? I present the truth and compare it to the teachings of mormonism.. Sorry to say that mormonism usually compares poorly.. Smith taught that a man may have more than one wife.. He took many wives.. But the Bible says that a leader of God's Church must be the husband of one wife.. How do you make both those statements true? Teach me.. I believe only the Bible.. I teach others what God reveals to us in the Bible.. Smith said Jesus told him that the teaches of the other churches are all corrupt.. Not partly corrupt, not even mostly corrupt, but all corrupt.. Today I hear LDS teach that there is a lot of truth in what Christian teachers teach.. They just don't have the full truth to teach.. Sorry but being corrupt means they either changed or deny the teaching of Jesus as they were given to Smith.. Is that a contradiction? Sure sound like it to me.. So how can you make both be true. That we are uninformed not corrupt and that Jesus told Smith that we are corrupt? Teach me.. I am glad I am not called to explain such problems with Biblical doctrine.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

Seeing it like I did was not an attack on you.. Or maybe you should be careful with your ***umptions as you did not know the exact reason I stopped posting. As far you knew, I was in a car accident or something.




Since all the major translation teach it just as it is stated in the KJV I would say you are bending the scripture to say what you want it to say instead of just believing God.. No, I just don't look at it so narrowly and also think of this scripture in light of others such as when Christ speaks of "greater ****ation"---to me, one scripture does not exclude the other.
James 2:10
NIV
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

[QUOTE]The problem isn't with the interpretation, it is with having or not having faith in God.. I have faith. Please, once again--don't make ***umptions you know my faith because you think you read something correctly and believe I do not.



Some people do see contradictions.. I am not one of them.. That is also a matter of believing or disbelieving God.. Well, then you are not open to the reality of what happens when scriptures are translated. I do not have problems with the contradictions, and they do not decrease my faith--I just understand that there are humans involved.




I agree completely But that is a p***age that has a meaning that can mean most sever punishment But this leads back to the question, why would one punishment be more severe than another if ...."For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."??





as Is it not the Lake of Fire.. Then is it the most sever punishment, and the greater condemnation? What could be more harsh than that? Or should we deny one part of the Bible to support another? So, then, if this is the "greater punishment" what is the lesser punishment?


Are you telling me that such sins can't be forgiven.. Nope, not at all.


These that deserve the greater ****ation? No? Then they are the greater ****ation only is there is no repentance and by not allowing the Holy Spirit to lead such to the cross to the blood of Jesus the commit the unpardonable sin.. Then why speak of a "greater" ****ation---shouldn't the word "****ation" do the trick?


Remember Rev 21:8 the unbelieving are included in that greater ****ation with ALL LIARS.. The greater ****ation is God's final judgment that sees such as they cast into the Lake of Fire.. All sin is deserving of the greater ****ation.. That is the only way it works.. How exactly is the greater ****ation? What ****ation is it being compared to?



I just did above.. I also said that I don't believe in Biblical contradiction so it must be that the greater ****ation is the harshest judgment God would judge a sinner an unconfessed sinner.. Either that or we are in conflict and that in not possible with God.. So, what is a less harsh judgment that God would judge a sinner? Do you see this "less harsh judgment" as NOT ****ation? Then how could there by a greater ****ation? Your two choices are ****ed or saved.



[B]Ecclesiastes 1:9
The thing that has been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. Yes, so...???


This can't mean learning, or technology. How is it that there is nothing new? Men's hearts and their corruptions are the same now as in former times; their desires, and pursuits, and complaints, still the same. The natural man does nothing new. He has been evil, He will be evil, He is evil.. And this explains what a greater ****ation is how???



You tell me in my posts that I don't present truth? I present the truth and compare it to the teachings of mormonism.. Not the way I see it. You beat-around-the-bush to explain "greater ****ation"---but then all you state is there is one really bad ****ation (hell fire, etc), but do not explain then what the lesser ****ation is. You explain we are evil---okay, but then you don't explain why Christ would single out the Pharisees as ones who will suffer a greater ****ation. Your explanation makes no sense.

[Apologette]

[QUOTE=James Banta;150799] Or maybe you should be careful with your ***umptions as you did not know the exact reason I stopped posting. As far you knew, I was in a car accident or something.



No, I just don't look at it so narrowly and also think of this scripture in light of others such as when Christ speaks of "greater ****ation"---to me, one scripture does not exclude the other.
[B]James 2:10
NIV
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

I have faith. Please, once again--don't make ***umptions you know my faith because you think you read something correctly and believe I do not.


Well, then you are not open to the reality of what happens when scriptures are translated. I do not have problems with the contradictions, and they do not decrease my faith--I just understand that there are humans involved.



But this leads back to the question, why would one punishment be more severe than another if ...."For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."??




So, then, if this is the "greater punishment" what is the lesser punishment?

Nope, not at all.

Then why speak of a "greater" ****ation---shouldn't the word "****ation" do the trick?

How exactly is the greater ****ation? What ****ation is it being compared to?


So, what is a less harsh judgment that God would judge a sinner? Do you see this "less harsh judgment" as NOT ****ation? Then how could there by a greater ****ation? Your two choices are ****ed or saved.


Yes, so...???

And this explains what a greater ****ation is how???


Not the way I see it. You beat-around-the-bush to explain "greater ****ation"---but then all you state is there is one really bad ****ation (hell fire, etc), but do not explain then what the lesser ****ation is. You explain we are evil---okay, but then you don't explain why Christ would single out the Pharisees as ones who will suffer a greater ****ation. Your explanation makes no sense.
Big Julie, you are condemned to ****ation, hell fire, because you have rejected the True and Living Christ and exchanged Him for the brother of Satan.

[BigJulie]

Big Julie, you are condemned to ****ation, hell fire, because you have rejected the True and Living Christ and exchanged Him for the brother of Satan.

And still no explanation of what it means to have "greater ****ation" and why Christ would tell the Pharisees this (who by the way were a chosen people who studied the scriptures daily.) These Pharisees THOUGHT they knew who the God of the scriptures was, but they missed him because, for all of their reading, they had no love in their heart. The criticized and condemned that which was good and right and put themselves above others because they thought their understanding of the scriptures was the only correct way to read it.

So, here we are celebrating the birth of our dear Savior, and here you are condemning me to hell. As James scripturally shared "there is nothing new under the sun." And thus we see, it is true.

[James Banta]

[QUOTE=BigJulie;150800][QUOTE=James Banta;150799] No, I just don't look at it so narrowly and also think of this scripture in light of others such as when Christ speaks of "greater ****ation"---to me, one scripture does not exclude the other.

So narrowly means what it says, the open minded meaning is what you want it to say. I believe God but I doubt you.. There is no secret meaning in James 2:10 just like there isn't a secret meaning in James 2:17 "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." You like that p***age so it means what it says.. But the same Apostle that recorded verse 17 recorded verse 10. It was just 7 verses earlier and it clearly teaches that if we keep the whole Law but sin in only one point we ARE GUILTY OF ALL.. If I can believe verse 17 how is it that yiu can continue to hold verse 10 in doubt?


I have faith. Please, once again--don't make ***umptions you know my faith because you think you read something correctly and believe I do not.

Come now Julie the verse isn't written in invisible ink, it isn't in Chinese.. It is in easily read English.. It just isn't in you to believe it as the Holy Spirit gave it to James.. You have to find a different meaning, because you don't like and don't agree with the clear statement made there.. Now is it said something like "As is known sin is evil and evil is sin, don't commit evil or you will be filled with evil" I would say that your interpretation would have merit. But this verse is so clear. "if you sin in only one point you are guilty of all". That leaves no room for interpretation at all, only to believe it or not.. I choose to believe it, you are choosing NOT..


Well, then you are not open to the reality of what happens when scriptures are translated. I do not have problems with the contradictions, and they do not decrease my faith--I just understand that there are humans involved.

I don't have trouble with them either.. I deny that contradictions exist in the scripture at all.. You seem to believe that God can and does contradict Himself.. Again I see a shocking lack of faith in that statement.. It is nothing less that saying that "sometimes God lies".. I deny that 100%


But this leads back to the question, why would one punishment be more severe than another if ...."For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."??

It wouldn't.. For breaking God's commandment there is only the greater ****ation.. There is no lesser ****ation.. Since there is one way God used to explain the final estate of the wicked that is the greater ****ation.. That is explain to us as the Lake of Fire.. No other ****ation is explained in the Bible.. Yes it says that that the Scribes and Pharisees that devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater ****ation.. Does this mean that their ****ation is greater than the Son's of Perdition? Are you starting yet to see that the greater ****ation is God's last great ****ation, the Lake of Fire? So who gets a lessor ****ation? Are there sinners that only have to dangle they feet into the Lake of Fire? No, The Bible is clear it says "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and *****mongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

In Matthew 25:41 Jesus teaches us that the Lake of Fire was prepared for the devil and his angels. If all the sinners listed in Rev 21:8 are also ***igned to that greater ****ation can there be any other.. After all would you call being fearful, unbelieving or lying as terrible of a sin as murderers, adultery, or idolatry? it only follows that there is one ****ation and that is the GREATER ****ATION.. That is unless you can show me that being fearful, unbelieving or lying leads to some other ****ation other than the Lake of fire with the murderers, adulterers, or idolaters and now those that devour widows' houses, and pretend holiness by making long prayers.. Tell me just how stealing and GIVING LONG PRETENDED Prayers is worse than murder? Do all these deserve the ****ation of God, Yes and that ****ation is the GREATER ****ATION..


So, then, if this is the "greater punishment" what is the lesser punishment?

Just where is this "Lessor ****ation" ever referred to? I have never seen it in the scripture..


Nope, not at all.

You are right there there is no such thing..


Then why speak of a "greater" ****ation---shouldn't the word "****ation" do the trick?

You are right again but for emphisis the Holy Spirit made it clear that they would get the greatest ****ation.


How exactly is the greater ****ation? What ****ation is it being compared to?

There is no comparison.. It is the only ****ation that is spoken of by God.. Remember the fearful, unbelieving and lying gain the same punishment as the murderers, adulterer, and the idolater. The Lake of Fire is therefore the GREATER ****ation!


So, what is a less harsh judgment that God would judge a sinner? Do you see this "less harsh judgment" as NOT ****ation? Then how could there by a greater ****ation? Your two choices are ****ed or saved.

That is why all these sinners even what you call the non serious sins of being fearful, unbelieving and lying are still said to be cast in the Lake of Fire.. I don't believe you are ready to discuss the unforgivable sin you are having to much trouble with the word greater.. There is no less harsh punishment can't you see that? All there is is the greater punishment.. I can't wait to see your answer why the Scribes and Pharisees have a greater ****ation over murderers and adulterers. Can't both suffer the greater ****ation?


And this explains what a greater ****ation is how???

The only explanation is that the greater ****ation are the words used by the Holy Spirit to describe His judgments..


Not the way I see it. You beat-around-the-bush to explain "greater ****ation"---but then all you state is there is one really bad ****ation (hell fire, etc), but do not explain then what the lesser ****ation is. You explain we are evil---okay, but then you don't explain why Christ would single out the Pharisees as ones who will suffer a greater ****ation. Your explanation makes no sense.

There is no lesser ****ation discussed in the scripture.. It is all the greater ****ation.. I can't and will not try to explain was isn't taught in the Bible.. I believe that this post makes iy more clear.. Stop worrying about what the scripture doesn't teach and believe what it does teach.. The ****ation God condemns sinners to is the GREATER ****ATION.. It doesn't matter if that ****ation is come by cheating the old and helpless or murdering an innocent. All who are guilty before God receive His GREATER ****ATION.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

He, of course knows. The point is, we don't know. Would you prefer God judge you prior to you doing anything because he knows what you would do?

He would be justified in doing so.

As I saw in your post you said "We don't Know" you are starting to understand the tests and trials we go though prove nothing to Him.. WE learn , we gain wisdom, we learn patience.. Our Good works are for God, our tests and trials are for us.. Always backward from what you think isn't.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE=James Banta;150815][QUOTE]

So narrowly means what it says, the open minded meaning is what you want it to say.

Yes, but you also need to look at what it says and see it in light of other scriptures and not make it say what you think you want it to say. You say this scriptures means that all sins are the same. It doesn't say that. It says that when you commit one sin, you are guilty of breaking the whole law. To me, this speaks to the fact that we are all in a fallen state and God sees that any sin will keep us from him. He doesn't state that all are the same, not even in this verse.


There is no secret meaning in James 2:10 just like there isn't a secret meaning in James 2:17 "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." You like that p***age so it means what it says.. But the same Apostle that recorded verse 17 recorded verse 10. It was just 7 verses earlier and it clearly teaches that if we keep the whole Law but sin in only one point we ARE GUILTY OF ALL.. If I can believe verse 17 how is it that yiu can continue to hold verse 10 in doubt? Yes, and in context, they fit perfectly together.

In these verses, Paul is asking us to not judge the poor and recognize that we are all in a fallen state. He wants us to love each other. He notes that if we do not act righteously, we are not righteous (faith without works is dead.)

But, that does not mean that the sinner is to go around stating that their sin is no different than the next guys. These verses are not there to give excuse to the murderer that he is just like the next guy when it comes to sin.



Come now Julie the verse isn't written in invisible ink, it isn't in Chinese.. It is in easily read English.. It just isn't in you to believe it as the Holy Spirit gave it to James.. You have to find a different meaning, because you don't like and don't agree with the clear statement made there.. Now is it said something like "As is known sin is evil and evil is sin, don't commit evil or you will be filled with evil" I would say that your interpretation would have merit. But this verse is so clear. "if you sin in only one point you are guilty of all". That leaves no room for interpretation at all, only to believe it or not.. I choose to believe it, you are choosing NOT.. It is clear, and in no way does it undo what Christ said when he spoke to the Pharisees of their greater ****ation because of what they were doing.



I don't have trouble with them either.. I deny that contradictions exist in the scripture at all.. You seem to believe that God can and does contradict Himself.. Again I see a shocking lack of faith in that statement.. It is nothing less that saying that "sometimes God lies".. I deny that 100% Oh, that's almost funny. Okay---I look at the scriptures and I see that there are definitely human flaws going on or we would not get two different versions of the same story with different facts presented. I don't think this is a problem because the truth can come through regardless, but I definitely do not disqualify the human element in God bringing forth truth.



It wouldn't.. For breaking God's commandment there is only the greater ****ation.. There is no lesser ****ation.. How can there be a greater with no lesser? There would be no reason to use the word "greater" then. This is why you don't make any sense as to how you read this scripture. Billyray said there are different punishments. Do you disagree with him on this?



Since there is one way God used to explain the final estate of the wicked that is the greater ****ation.. That is explain to us as the Lake of Fire.. No other ****ation is explained in the Bible.. Yes it says that that the Scribes and Pharisees that devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater ****ation.. Does this mean that their ****ation is greater than the Son's of Perdition? Are you starting yet to see that the greater ****ation is God's last great ****ation, the Lake of Fire? Nope....what was BEFORE the hell fire?


So who gets a lessor ****ation? Are there sinners that only have to dangle they feet into the Lake of Fire? No, The Bible is clear it says "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and *****mongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Wait a minute---wait a minute---you just gave a list of sins as if these sins are greater than, lets say, not clothing the needy. Are you now going against what you said earlier?


In Matthew 25:41 Jesus teaches us that the Lake of Fire was prepared for the devil and his angels. If all the sinners listed in Rev 21:8 are also ***igned to that greater ****ation can there be any other..

So, to you then, Christ misspoke when he used the word "greater" because there is no lesser and greater. According to you, he goofed on this.





Just where is this "Lessor ****ation" ever referred to? I have never seen it in the scripture.. It is referred to when you say "greater ****ation"....unless you think Christ misspoke and didn't need to say greater.






You are right again but for emphisis the Holy Spirit made it clear that they would get the greatest ****ation. Now we have "greatest ****ation" as if there is something greater again?




There is no comparison.. It is the only ****ation that is spoken of by God.. Remember the fearful, unbelieving and lying gain the same punishment as the murderers, adulterer, and the idolater. The Lake of Fire is therefore the GREATER ****ation! So Christ misspoke by implying there was a "greater" ****ation. ****ation was enough.



That is why all these sinners even what you call the non serious sins of being fearful, unbelieving and lying are still said to be cast in the Lake of Fire.. I don't believe you are ready to discuss the unforgivable sin you are having to much trouble with the word greater.. There is no less harsh punishment can't you see that? All there is is the greater punishment.. I can't wait to see your answer why the Scribes and Pharisees have a greater ****ation over murderers and adulterers. Can't both suffer the greater ****ation? Well, lets see, he told the Pharisees that they would suffer a greater ****ation for pretending to be righteous when they were not and using this "pretense" to destroy the well-being of those in need. So, yeah, he puts this as a bigger sin. But you don't recognize that. I do.



The only explanation is that the greater ****ation are the words used by the Holy Spirit to describe His judgments.. I still don't see this the same way you do.




There is no lesser ****ation discussed in the scripture.. It is all the greater ****ation.. I can't and will not try to explain was isn't taught in the Bible.. I believe that this post makes iy more clear.. Stop worrying about what the scripture doesn't teach and believe what it does teach.. The ****ation God condemns sinners to is the GREATER ****ATION.. It doesn't matter if that ****ation is come by cheating the old and helpless or murdering an innocent. All who are guilty before God receive His GREATER ****ATION.. IHS jim Once again---you make the words of Christ either unneeded or believe he misspoke. You want me to believe what the scriptures teach, but then you go about say---"stop worrying about what the scripture doesn't teach..."---well, there is nothing you have said that is congruent with what I know of the Savior. He doesn't goof when he speaks. He doesn't say things he doesn't mean.

Your way of understanding this is to say, in short, greater doesn't mean greater. That doesn't work for me.

And then I can apply this to real life. I can see that all sin keeps us away from God. I can see that he doesn't want us to judge one another as better or worse based on our sins. But he also doesn't provide an excuse for the sinner to say--well, my murdering is the same as your white lying. He does make a list of what are really terrible offenses to him. He does tell those that should know better that they will be held more accountable and suffer a "greater ****ation."

This makes total sense to me.

Your explanation, doesn't.

It doesn't fit what I read and it certainly doesn't fit real life. Once again...if someone committed a sin against me that hurt me terribly and then tried to brush it off as if my telling a white lie was the same as their (lets say) murder, I would be like--no way. Then if they were "believers" and then lets say, stole my house, I would be glad to know that God takes this seriously. If they were repentant---then yes, the sin is the same to God and we should not judge. But I certainly wouldn't want the repentant murderer excusing himself by saying--oh, my sin is the same as any other. No way. James 2 should not be used a way for sinners to excuse their behavior as if their sin is no different than others. Christ recognized that the sins of the Pharisees were greater than others because they knew better. Don't say he goofed or misspoke.

[neverending]

And still no explanation of what it means to have "greater ****ation" and why Christ would tell the Pharisees this (who by the way were a chosen people who studied the scriptures daily.) These Pharisees THOUGHT they knew who the God of the scriptures was, but they missed him because, for all of their reading, they had no love in their heart. The criticized and condemned that which was good and right and put themselves above others because they thought their understanding of the scriptures was the only correct way to read it.

So, here we are celebrating the birth of our dear Savior, and here you are condemning me to hell. As James scripturally shared "there is nothing new under the sun." And thus we see, it is true.

".....but they missed him because, for all of their reading, they had no love in their heart. The criticized and condemned that which was good and right and put themselves above others because they thought their understanding of the scriptures was the only correct way to read it." Julie, stop for a moment and think about what you just said here. Does this not sound like the LDS? They go about thinking they are the "only true Church" condemn those who aren't members thinking highly of themselves and of course the LDS are the only ones who can understand scriptures and their interpretation is the only correct one. There is one verse where it mentions, "greater ****ation." Are you going to throw the baby out with the bath water over one scripture? To me it means that there are some when judged will suffer a greater ****ation and suffer more then others. Then one has to consider that being judged by God and receiving his condemnation which is the Lake of Fire, that would be the greatest ****ation ever and to be separated spiritually from God for eternity. Could there be anything worse?

[Snow Patrol]

Julie, stop for a moment and think about what you just said here. Does this not sound like the LDS? They go about thinking they are the "only true Church" condemn those who aren't members thinking highly of themselves and of course the LDS are the only ones who can understand scriptures and their interpretation is the only correct one.

Oh my goodness. You could say the same things about Christians. Remember, Christians believe the Church is the body of believers. So, don't you believe the body of believers/Church is the only true Church? Hasn't every single "Christian" here condemned the LDS for not being believers? I've been told so many times that I can't understand the scriptures because my eyes have not been opened that I can't count them all.

[BigJulie]

".....but they missed him because, for all of their reading, they had no love in their heart. The criticized and condemned that which was good and right and put themselves above others because they thought their understanding of the scriptures was the only correct way to read it." Julie, stop for a moment and think about what you just said here. Does this not sound like the LDS? They go about thinking they are the "only true Church" condemn those who aren't members thinking highly of themselves and of course the LDS are the only ones who can understand scriptures and their interpretation is the only correct one. There is one verse where it mentions, "greater ****ation." Are you going to throw the baby out with the bath water over one scripture? To me it means that there are some when judged will suffer a greater ****ation and suffer more then others. Then one has to consider that being judged by God and receiving his condemnation which is the Lake of Fire, that would be the greatest ****ation ever and to be separated spiritually from God for eternity. Could there be anything worse?

Interesting that you captured my quote in your quote:
but they missed him because, for all of their reading, they had no love in their heart. The criticized and condemned that which was good and right and put themselves above others because they thought their understanding of the scriptures was the only correct way to read it."

This (above) was the last part of my quote.

All you have to do is hit "reply with quote" and it will capture my quote. It break of the quote of another and insert what you want, highlight what you want to refer to and then hit the icon above that is like the little quote bubble.

We don't go around condemning others as you do. We believing other churches have parts of the truth, but the gospel of Jesus Christ teaches the fullness of the truth. If you want to refer to what God said to Joseph Smith-well, that is what God said.

Do I want to throw out the baby with the bath water for one scripture? No, I see that these verses all fit together into one great truth--there is no need to throw it out.

Oh, so you do believe that some sins are different than others to God when you state: .
To me it means that there are some when judged will suffer a greater ****ation and suffer more then others. James argues against that. Do you disagree with him?

[Apologette]

Interesting that you captured my quote in your quote:

This (above) was the last part of my quote.

All you have to do is hit "reply with quote" and it will capture my quote. It break of the quote of another and insert what you want, highlight what you want to refer to and then hit the icon above that is like the little quote bubble.

We don't go around condemning others as you do. We believing other churches have parts of the truth, but the gospel of Jesus Christ teaches the fullness of the truth. If you want to refer to what God said to Joseph Smith-well, that is what God said.

Do I want to throw out the baby with the bath water for one scripture? No, I see that these verses all fit together into one great truth--there is no need to throw it out.

Oh, so you do believe that some sins are different than others to God when you state: . James argues against that. Do you disagree with him?

I believe the sin of unbelief will never be forgiven. It is the sin against the Holy Spirit. That is denying the Biblical Gospel. Mull over that for a while!

Oh, you're lying again Julie about not attacking Christians. Go ahead and denounce these disgusting statements by your great prophets:

http://www.mrm.org/we-never-criticize (PS: she won't denounce these gross attacks on Christians)

[BigJulie]

I believe the sin of unbelief will never be forgiven. It is the sin against the Holy Spirit. That is denying the Biblical Gospel. Mull over that for a while!

Oh, you're lying again Julie about not attacking Christians. Go ahead and denounce these disgusting statements by your great prophets:

http://www.mrm.org/we-never-criticize (PS: she won't denounce these gross attacks on Christians)

I looked thought it the site you gave me. You basically think we are attacking because we explain of the apostasy--that was also discussed in the New Testament?

Please, go through it, and just once---pick out one Christian's person's name in that whole site that any one specifically refers to. See if there is any attack of any Christian by name. I did not look at so closely, so there may be one. This will be a challenge for you.

Okay, the sin of perdition is the only one that will never be forgiven. So, what is this greater punishment that you then refer to?

[Billyray]

Did the works of the student help him tap into the grace of his parents? Would the child realize the grace of his parents if he choose to not practice?
You didn't answer my question. Here it is again for you.

Do works contribute for salvation?

[BigJulie]

You didn't answer my question. Here it is again for you.

Do works contribute for salvation?

I did answer your question with another question. Answer the one and you will answer your own.

Here, I will put it to you another one, can someone experience God's grace without works?

I know you have given the thief example----but as we discussed previously, the thief (actually, do you know I learned that the proper translation is "rebel" not thief---it was rebels who were hung on the cross like that---rebels against the state)--basically did DO something.

But interestingly, I keep getting different responses from the "christians' here on this site.

James seems to think that there is not "greater" ****ation, that it is all the same.

You seem to think it has to do with punishment level.

Apologette seems to agree with you, but then acknowledges that even the murderers, etc. will be better off than those who are the sons of perdition.

So, if there is only one ****ation as James thinks and there is different punishment levels as you and Apologette think, and only the sons of perdition won't be forgiven.....

How exactly do you see things IF you don't believe in different degrees of glory because with different degrees of glory, you would have different levels of punishment, but only one outer darkness for the sons of perdition.

Please, do explain.

[Billyray]

Here, I will put it to you another one, can someone experience God's grace without works?

Absolutely.

Now perhaps you can answer my question. Do works contribute for LDS salvation?

[BigJulie]

Absolutely.

Now perhaps you can answer my question. Do works contribute for LDS salvation?

So, who exactly can experience God's grace and do nothing?

I know you keep asking this question to try to set a trap---but I think it deserves deeper discussion.

Hey, and you didn't address the whole greater ****ation thing. Did you see what I asked you?

[Billyray]

So, who exactly can experience God's grace and do nothing?

We all do because grace is not earned by our works.

[BigJulie]

We all do because grace is not earned by our works.

Okay, so---you believe that you can experience God's grace by doing nothing? No repentance? No faith? Nothing?

You still have ignored the question I asked above about "greater ****ation" because by all accounts, it appears you believe in degrees of glory by what you and Apologette state.

[Billyray]

Okay, so---you believe that you can experience God's grace by doing nothing? No repentance? No faith? Nothing?

Absolutely. For some reason Mormons believe that they earn grace by their works. That is exactly what you believe.

[BigJulie]

Absolutely. For some reason Mormons believe that they earn grace by their works. That is exactly what you believe.

Oh, okay---who exactly does this apply to---who can have God's grace without faith and without repentance? I mean, I believe there is a group that qualifies for this. What group do you believe it is?

No, I don't think I "earn" grace---but I believe God does give qualifications of who he extends his grace to. Don't you agree?

Still ignoring the other question I can see. Oh well.

[Billyray]

No, I don't think I "earn" grace---but I believe God does give qualifications of who he extends his grace to. Don't you agree?
Qualifications = works per LDS thinking. You work to earn grace. But the Bible clearly teaches that this is false.

[neverending]

Interesting that you captured my quote in your quote:

This (above) was the last part of my quote.

All you have to do is hit "reply with quote" and it will capture my quote. It break of the quote of another and insert what you want, highlight what you want to refer to and then hit the icon above that is like the little quote bubble.

We don't go around condemning others as you do. We believing other churches have parts of the truth, but the gospel of Jesus Christ teaches the fullness of the truth. If you want to refer to what God said to Joseph Smith-well, that is what God said.

Do I want to throw out the baby with the bath water for one scripture? No, I see that these verses all fit together into one great truth--there is no need to throw it out.

Oh, so you do believe that some sins are different than others to God when you state: . James argues against that. Do you disagree with him?

So are you saying that my church only has "part of the truth?" We teach the gospel of Jesus Christ, straight from God's Word, The Bible. What Mormonism is, is another gospel which Paul warned about. The Bible never taught Temple marriage, that doing good works was what was necessary for salvation. It doesn't teach that God was once a man nor that man if he lived all the laws and ordinances of Mormonism would become a god and be able to create their own worlds. It doesn't teach about pre-existence either since scriptures says, "The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him" (Zech. 12:1). The Bible teaches that God is spirit, not a man of flesh and bone (I am speaking of God the Father here). The Bible teaches that, "How be it the most high dwelleth not in temples made with hands sayeth the prophet.....Acts 7:48. Acts. 17:24. It is God's grace that saves us, that is what is taught in His word. Many, many differences in our religions isn't there so who are we to believe?

[Billyray]

Oh, okay---who exactly does this apply to---who can have God's grace without faith and without repentance?
The thief on the cross didn't do works in order to earn God's grace.

Let's start with defining the term "grace".

[BigJulie]

Qualifications = works per LDS thinking. You work to earn grace. But the Bible clearly teaches that this is false.

No---there are babies who receive God's grace with doing nothing.

But I do think God expects us to have faith, be baptized, follow him. You disagree?

But, I guess to a certain, extent--and this gets back to the earlier question. Because I believe in the degrees of glory, to everyone OTHER than the sons of perdition, there will be some grace extended. Do you agree?

[BigJulie]

So are you saying that my church only has "part of the truth?" We teach the gospel of Jesus Christ, straight from God's Word, The Bible. What Mormonism is, is another gospel which Paul warned about. The Bible never taught Temple marriage, that doing good works was what was necessary for salvation. It doesn't teach that God was once a man nor that man if he lived all the laws and ordinances of Mormonism would become a god and be able to create their own worlds. It doesn't teach about pre-existence either since scriptures says, "The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him" (Zech. 12:1). The Bible teaches that God is spirit, not a man of flesh and bone (I am speaking of God the Father here). The Bible teaches that, "How be it the most high dwelleth not in temples made with hands sayeth the prophet.....Acts 7:48. Acts. 17:24. It is God's grace that saves us, that is what is taught in His word. Many, many differences in our religions isn't there so who are we to believe?



Yes, I am saying that your church does not have the fullness of the truth ---if you did, I would belong to your church. Do you believe every church has all the truth? What about Catholics?


I disagree that Mormonism is "another gospel"--I believe it is the gospel.

Ummm, God was a man---this is always the most interesting argument to me that a "christian' makes---I mean, do you not think Jesus Christ was a man?

Whenever a "christian' argues that God is a spirit and NOT a man, I think--hey--so you see this clear difference between God the Father and Jesus Christ---but I don't. If Christ was born, had a body, died, resurrected and was exalted and IS God, we can say the exact same thing for the Father---as because Christ teaches us--they are the same.

[Billyray]

No---there are babies who receive God's grace with doing nothing.

So babies receive God's grace "with doing nothing" but others have to work for grace. Is this a fair ***essment of what you believe?

[Billyray]

But I do think God expects us to have faith, be baptized, follow him. You disagree?

Do you believe that God believes that anyone will perfectly obey the commandments?

[BigJulie]

So babies receive God's grace "with doing nothing" but others have to work for grace. Is this a fair ***essment of what you believe?

No, because as I said earlier, all but the sons of perdition will receive God's grace in some form---but there will be those who get a more "severe punishment"---I think those were your words.

Do you believe this?

[BigJulie]

Do you believe that God believes that anyone will perfectly obey the commandments?

Nope, no one but the Son of God will.

[Billyray]

Nope, no one but the Son of God will.
So God "expects" that no one will truly obey all of his commandments.

[BigJulie]

So God "expects" that no one will truly obey all of his commandments.

Nope, he provides a way for us to "truly obey" him. It is called repentance.

But, you once again are ignoring my question/reply.

No, because as I said earlier, all but the sons of perdition will receive God's grace in some form---but there will be those who get a more "severe punishment"---I think those were your words.

Do you believe this?

I will wait to respond again when you answer this---but you are free to ask more questions as well, once you answer as well.

[Billyray]

Nope, he provides a way for us to "truly obey" him. It is called repentance.

What do you mean "nope". Does God "expect" anyone to follow all of his commandments?

[Billyray]

Nope, he provides a way for us to "truly obey" him. It is called repentance.

But nobody "truly obeys" God. You should know that. This is taught in the Bible--yet you seem to gloss over these sections I guess.

[BigJulie]

But nobody "truly obeys" God. You should know that. This is taught in the Bible--yet you seem to gloss over these sections I guess.

Billyray, as noted, I will wait for you to answer my question before I continue.

[Billyray]

No, because as I said earlier, all but the sons of perdition will receive God's grace in some form---but there will be those who get a more "severe punishment"---I think those were your words.

Do you believe this?
Your understanding of the afterlife is not consistent with what the Bible teaches so the only way I can answer your question is that what you believe is false. If you want to define terms then we can go from there.

[BigJulie]

Your understanding of the afterlife is not consistent with what the Bible teaches so the only way I can answer your question is that what you believe is false. If you want to define terms then we can go from there.

Wait---I was just asking you guys what YOU believe the Bible says. Between you, Apologette and James, this is what I came away with.

1) There is only one hell fire ****ation.

2) Only the Sons of perdition go there.

3) God will punish some more severely than others.

What I am to believe other than you also believe in the degrees of glory in which God's grace extends to all except the sons of perdition. And that there are those (other than the sons of perdition) who will have a more severe punishment and some who have less severe who will experience God's grace.

From all I read, it appears you all agree with us Mormons regarding the afterlife.

[Billyray]

Wait---I was just asking you guys what YOU believe the Bible says.
The Bible says that there is Heaven and there is Hell. Those who place their faith in Christ will go to Heaven and those who do not will go to Hell. There will be differing rewards or "Crowns" for those who go to Heaven and there will be varying degrees of punishments for those who end up in Hell.

[Apologette]

The Bible says that there is Heaven and there is Hell. Those who place their faith in Christ will go to Heaven and those who do not will go to Hell. There will be differing rewards or "Crowns" for those who go to Heaven and there will be varying degrees of punishments for those who end up in Hell.
Absolutely right!

[neverending]

Yes, I am saying that your church does not have the fullness of the truth ---if you did, I would belong to your church. Do you believe every church has all the truth? What about Catholics?


I disagree that Mormonism is "another gospel"--I believe it is the gospel.

Ummm, God was a man---this is always the most interesting argument to me that a "christian' makes---I mean, do you not think Jesus Christ was a man?

Whenever a "christian' argues that God is a spirit and NOT a man, I think--hey--so you see this clear difference between God the Father and Jesus Christ---but I don't. If Christ was born, had a body, died, resurrected and was exalted and IS God, we can say the exact same thing for the Father---as because Christ teaches us--they are the same.

Julie I knew you would say what you did. Mormons don't get it. You see, God the Father and Jesus Christ are two distinct individual persons. The Father is a spirit which the Bible says in John 4:24, "God is spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in Truth." Luke 24:39, "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I, myself; handle me and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as you see me have." A spirit does not have flesh and bone so you can plainly see that when Christ was speaking about God the Father, he describes Him as a spirit. Anything else is not Biblical. No one can become a god for that would be blasphemy. It is one of many reasons that Satan was cast out of heaven, due to him saying, "I will make myself like the most high God." The Great I WILLS found in Isaiah tells us all of the sins Satan committed against God. Christ never taught that he and God the Father are the same. The Bible teaches that God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are ONE. Jesus is described as God in John 1:1. The Father is described as God in John 20:17, "...touch me not for I have not yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; to my God, and your God." Acts 5:3-4, "But Peter said, Ananias why has Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? And after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? Why hast thou conceived this in thine heart thou has not lied unto men, but unto God." So Ananias lied to God (the Holy Ghost). This is three references all showing that there are three persons within the being of God. This is not hard to understand when the Bible teaches so plainly who God is. Sometimes it takes a leap of faith to believe it and not over ****yze it.

[BigJulie]

The Bible says that there is Heaven and there is Hell. Those who place their faith in Christ will go to Heaven and those who do not will go to Hell. There will be differing rewards or "Crowns" for those who go to Heaven and there will be varying degrees of punishments for those who end up in Hell.


Ahhh, so, unlike James, you do differentiate between what degree of heaven someone will experience (or crown) and what they will experience in hell.

[BigJulie]

Julie I knew you would say what you did. Mormons don't get it.

Or you don't....

It is always so interesting to me that 'christians' go to such great lengths to explain how Jesus and the Father are NOT alike. Okay.

[Billyray]

Ahhh, so, unlike James, you do differentiate between what degree of heaven someone will experience (or crown) and what they will experience in hell.
No Jim and I agree that that there is only one Heaven and one Hell.

[BigJulie]

No Jim and I agree that that there is only one Heaven and one Hell.

Okay, to you then, heaven and hell is a place...two separate places. One can be in one or the other, right? And then in those places---God is either harder on your or nicer to you depending on....what?

[Billyray]

Okay, to you then, heaven and hell is a place...two separate places.
Those who place their faith in Christ will go to Heaven and those who do not place their faith in Christ will go to Hell. Thus two distinct places.

[Billyray]

Okay, to you then, heaven and hell is a place...two separate places. One can be in one or the other, right? And then in those places---God is either harder on your or nicer to you depending on....what?
So where do you find support for the lds concept of heaven in the Bible--where you can go to heaven yet be eternally separated from God?

[BigJulie]

Those who place their faith in Christ will go to Heaven and those who do not place their faith in Christ will go to Hell. Thus two distinct places.

So, what about the rewards and punishments? What warrants this?

[BigJulie]

So where do you find support for the lds concept of heaven in the Bible--where you can go to heaven yet be eternally separated from God?

I never said that. Since we see God as a Godhead, everyone who is not a son of perdition will experience God---but you can just think of it as a "crown" or "reward" since you seem to understand that idea.

[neverending]

Or you don't....

It is always so interesting to me that 'christians' go to such great lengths to explain how Jesus and the Father are NOT alike. Okay.

Christians say that God the Father and Christ are the same being....the only difference is that Christ has a body of flesh and bone since he was born to a mortal woman. What is hard for the LDS is that they can't understand that as Christians we believe in ONE God, not three. I am sorry that the scripture verses I gave you were either not read or you just can't understand what Christ and God taught us. It is not that hard to understand the trinity. Consider an egg. It has both a shell a yoke and the white but yet it is one egg. This is how I see the Godhead, three individual persons who rely on each other, do not do anything without the others; they are always together, always ONE. Do go back and read those verses I left for you. God is there waiting to reveal Himself to you, one only needs to be open to Him.

[neverending]

Oh, okay---who exactly does this apply to---who can have God's grace without faith and without repentance? I mean, I believe there is a group that qualifies for this. What group do you believe it is?

No, I don't think I "earn" grace---but I believe God does give qualifications of who he extends his grace to. Don't you agree?

Still ignoring the other question I can see. Oh well.

Julie....there is but one requirement to receive God's grace and that is to believe, have faith in Him. What do you say are these qualifications? I know only of what the Bible teaches. You have read I am sure numerous times, John 3:16, "For GOD so LOVED the world that HE gave HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON; that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES in him shall have EVERLASTING life." It is so simple the gospel of Christ, and so beautiful. To know that God loved us so much he sent his son (Christ) to die for us. Christ taking our place on the cross, a place that we deserved, not him. Christ who lived a sinless life, and you and I who could never live a sinless life no matter how hard we tried; but God loved us that much in spite of our sinful lives he condemned his beloved son to take our place. That is amazing to me. I praise God daily for his grace and love.

[BigJulie]

Julie....there is but one requirement to receive God's grace and that is to believe, have faith in Him. What do you say are these qualifications? I know only of what the Bible teaches. You have read I am sure numerous times, John 3:16, "For GOD so LOVED the world that HE gave HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON; that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES in him shall have EVERLASTING life." It is so simple the gospel of Christ, and so beautiful. To know that God loved us so much he sent his son (Christ) to die for us. Christ taking our place on the cross, a place that we deserved, not him. Christ who lived a sinless life, and you and I who could never live a sinless life no matter how hard we tried; but God loved us that much in spite of our sinful lives he condemned his beloved son to take our place. That is amazing to me. I praise God daily for his grace and love.

So, what about small children? Babies? Those who never had the opportunity to learn of Christ?

[neverending]

So, what about small children? Babies? Those who never had the opportunity to learn of Christ?

Do not worry about babies or small children. You know the great love Christ has for them. The Bible says, "But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God" (Luke 18:16). The same is stated in Matt. 19:14, "Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."
Apostle Paul through the Holy Spirit said, "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made,even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse" (Rom. 1:20).
Julie, these verses make it perfectly clear that babies or small children will be granted their place in heaven. The last verse is perfectly clear that if people are able to see that there is a higher power who created this beautiful world and know that nothing just happened my chance, then those too will find their place in heaven. It is only those who do not see nor believe, that will stand and be judged and are without excuse.

[theway]

Do not worry about babies or small children. You know the great love Christ has for them. The Bible says, "But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God" (Luke 18:16). The same is stated in Matt. 19:14, "Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."
Apostle Paul through the Holy Spirit said, "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made,even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse" (Rom. 1:20).
Julie, these verses make it perfectly clear that babies or small children will be granted their place in heaven. The last verse is perfectly clear that if people are able to see that there is a higher power who created this beautiful world and know that nothing just happened my chance, then those too will find their place in heaven. It is only those who do not see nor believe, that will stand and be judged and are without excuse. OK... Then suppose you show from the Bible what cons***utes a child, as apposed to one who can see but doesn't see???

[neverending]

OK... Then suppose you show from the Bible what cons***utes a child, as apposed to one who can see but doesn't see???

I think we know that the "little children" that Christ loved and mentioned within those scripture verses were very young. What consti tutes a child? A little one who hasn't the understanding of what is right and what is wrong. Normally, a child learns this very soon when mom scolds them for misbehaving.
It says in Matthew, "And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. “Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea(Matthew 18:2-6).
I think we know that in children before they become truly aware of the evils of this world are honest, and humble; they don't know anything else. This is what consti tutes a child...an innocent, honest, humble child who hasn't become defiled by the world. Since the Bible doesn't come right out and say what the age is for a child, then this is my opinion and it makes total sense. A child is sweet and innocent not knowing yet from right and wrong. Like Adam and Eve before they ate of the fruit, not knowing evil and trusting everything.

[BigJulie]

OK... Then suppose you show from the Bible what cons***utes a child, as apposed to one who can see but doesn't see???

Yes, and how is it only the sons of perdition will go to outer darkness. And what is the "greater punishment"--what is the more severe punishment or what are the rewards or crowns? Who makes the difference from one to another?

[BigJulie]

Do not worry about babies or small children. You know the great love Christ has for them. The Bible says, "But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God" (Luke 18:16). The same is stated in Matt. 19:14, "Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."
Apostle Paul through the Holy Spirit said, "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made,even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse" (Rom. 1:20).
Julie, these verses make it perfectly clear that babies or small children will be granted their place in heaven. The last verse is perfectly clear that if people are able to see that there is a higher power who created this beautiful world and know that nothing just happened my chance, then those too will find their place in heaven. It is only those who do not see nor believe, that will stand and be judged and are without excuse.
Okay, so when you said:


Julie....there is but one requirement to receive God's grace and that is to believe, have faith in Him.

You didn't mean small children and babies. And what about those who have never heard of Christ...lets say, someone who lived in the Alaskan area before Christ was born and was not of the house of Israel? Do they have to have faith in Christ too? How do they do this if they never learned of him?

[neverending]

Yes, and how is it only the sons of perdition will go to outer darkness. And what is the "greater punishment"--what is the more severe punishment or what are the rewards or crowns? Who makes the difference from one to another?

Did you not read my post....I will repeat the important verse again. "Apostle Paul through the Holy Spirit said, "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made,even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse" (Rom. 1:20).

The Bible doesn't teach about outer darkness Julie. It teaches the Lake of Fire. Sons of perdition will find their place there along with all the many who never believed in Jesus Christ or repented of their sins. You are caught up with a word, "greater". IS there anything "greater" then God's punishment? What could be worse, what could be, "greater" then to be punished by God? That is the "greater" punishment. Is there anything "greater" then being thrown into the Lake of Fire?
Julie, crowns are the reward which believers will be given but will then cast at Jesus' feet; we don't keep them for only Jesus is worthy of them. Do you not realize that God makes the differences, makes all the final judgments?

[James Banta]

This post is getting to long to include your statements with it you have to go back on your own to see the questions you bring up.

Great so cheating the poor, saying long prayers to show other how holy you are is a sin that deserves greater ****ation.. That would mean these sins are worse than murder, worse than denying the Holy Spirit.. Come on Julie how do you believe that stealing and hippocracy are more serious than murder and adultery.. That the punishment He metes out for stealing and hippocracy is the greater ****ation? Greater than any ****ation God punishes sin?

Again show me why stealing and hippocracy are more serious than murder and adultery, to deserve a Greater ****ation..

I am dumb, Julie you will have to show me just where we started speaking of Paul.. I remember only bringing up James 2:10,19. I don't believe they conflict either. It is perfectly fine to do good works with, or without believing that committing adultery is equally evil before God as lying.. You disbelieve me is my ***ertion that is true then contend the stealing from the poor and giving prayers that show hippocracy are worthy of some greater ****ation any any other sin against God.. I always thought that denial of the Holy Spirit was the only sin that can be committed that had no repentance.. Your interpretation of the verse seems to be out of sync with your own doctrine of the seriousness of sin much less mine that see all sin as deserving that Greater ****ation..

So if all sin deserves that greater ****ation what excuse am I making to murder? What excuse am I making to lying, or stealing from the poor, or hippocracy.. Seems that is what you are doing saying; that God will not judge all sin the same..

Jesus is our sacrifice for sin.. He was judged by God one way, that was with death.. The wages of sin is death.. IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THE SIN IS, THE WAGES ARE THE SAME. DEATH! That is both Physical and spiritual death. That is the GREATER ****ATION!

The fact that I say that God's unaltered truth is preserved in the Bible without error you find funny.. Since there is no way to show you what isn't there alteration I require that you show me where there is such an alteration.. You say "I see that there are definitely human flaws going on" so point them out.. I have asked others to do this and they come up with differences in the text that in no way change the meaning of the message.. Therefore God's message of His love, His salvation is there unaltered. He said Abraham was counted as righteous before him, not because of his obedience but by his faith.. Jesus tell us that in John 3:16 saying that who ever believes in Him shall have eternal life. Later through the Holy Spirit we are taught in the writings of Paul we are saved by God's GRACE through FAITH and NOT OF WORKS.. It all agrees..

So when James teaches that if we offend God's Law even in ine point we are guilty of all we must either agree to claim God a liar.. For you tell me that murder and adultery are much worse a sin before God than mere hippocracy, or stealing. But then you tell me that such sins as those deserve a greater ****ation.. Greater than what Julie? Greater than the ****ation a murderer deserves? Or greater than anything man can give?

What is lessor about eternal spiritual death in the Lake of Fire? And yet that is the promise given to Murderers, Adulterers, the Unbelieving, the fearful, and all liars.. How can these all be humped together and not receive the punishment, the ONLY punishment listed in the p***age (Rev 21:8) is the Lake of Fire, the second Death! So what is the Greater punishment.. It is God's punishment.. If you need a lessor one then use man's punishment.. All men can do is kill the body, God can destroy the soul in the Lake of Fire.. All God's punishment are identical.. That is His final judgements. in This life everyone is punished differently. Some receive physical death, others are locked away in a prison, some are fined.. Some lose their ***s, their homes, even their families.. But the finally judgment, the judgment of God is only the Lake of Fire..

Since the Lake of Fire in the last estate of the wicked what does it matter what is before it? Since nothing else is eternal punishment, not even hell which is also cast into the Lake of Fire, nothing else is ****ation.. ****ation is to be stopped, a condition of always remaining is a state.. His Greater ****ation is to always remain ****ed in the Lake of Fire.. God's ****ation of the evil is then the Greater ****ation. And if you need a lessor ****ation let that be the ****ation pronounced be men be the lessor..

No because I don't believe any sin is more serious to God than any other.. There is but one punishment that is DEATH.. There is only one sin that receives that punishment that is REBELLION against God.. Sin ans only Sin.. You see this as a contradiction to Luke 20:47..What I am saying is that it is NOT.. That all sin is punished with the greater ****ation.. Anything else will not allow the whole of the Bible to be true. You have determined to use this p***age to try to prove me wrong and if you were right then those who "devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers" are the worst of sinners because they receive the greater ****ation. That would mean greater than murderers, adulterers, sorcerers, and idolaters. Is that your new doctrine that stealing from widows and saying hypocritical prayers are the worst of all sins. That deserving a greater ****ation, greater than all other sinners.. Your theology here is strained don't you think?

Not at all I think you goof not agreeing with Him that it is so, and that all any sin we commit makes of guilty of all.. So that stealing from little old ladies, and saying hypocritical prayers are the worst of all sins. That is what you believe.. Or is stealing from little old ladies, and saying hypocritical prayers are the worst of all sins along with all other disobedience to God? If it is the second choice then James 2:10 and Luke 20:47 can both be true.. If not then all that can be true is Luke 20:47.. I say both are, you say only one.. Who is believing God's word and who is denying Him?

I have answered this well enough.. The greater ****ation comes to ALL who are ****ed by God.. PERIOD..

Even by your own standard of the seriousness of sin you can't tell me you believe that "pretending to be righteous" deserves a greater ****ation than all other sin.. That a murderer should receive a lessor ****ation? Doesn't it make more sense even to the LDS that being a hippocratic is less of a crime that being a murderer, and therefore the murderer deserves a greater ****ation than the hippocratic? But Jesus didn't say that did He? No He said that the hippocratic would receive a greater ****ation.. In short in breaking the Law of God they became guilty of all and deserved that greater ****ation just like the murderer..

I don't even believe that you see this the same way other LDS do.. That stealing from old women and saying long prayers makes one worthy of receiving a greater ****ation than that of even murderers? To most the punishment fits the crime.. To me all crime against God make them totally guilty of all the possible crimes against God. To most LDS murder is second only to the denial of the Holy Spirit in seriousness.. To you it's stealing from widows and saying long prayers..

Not at all.. I am saying that these deserve the greater ****ation.. He was speaking to just that crime at the time but all rebellion against God could have been included.. He didn't make a error, he didn't misspeak. I say that all the scripture is God's word James 2:10 included.. It all have to fit together as one message to us from God.. When you have to drop any part of it to make your interpretation work then that interpretation is wrong.. That is where you find yourself.. You have to deny James 2:10 to make your interpretation of Luke 20:47 work.. I haven't done that..

Sorry but all that God Does is Greater than all things.. That goes for the ****ation He pronounces..

You could say that if you could just understand that murdering isn't the same as your white lying. It's the other way around.. That little white lie is as serious as murder.. The list of sins? The ten commandments? Which of them is more serious than the others? Jesus tell is the greatest commandment is to love God and the second is just like it to love our neighbor.. He said in those two commands is all the Law and the prophets.. It cam be shown that stealing from widow is included in that, so is murdering the widow. It could be shown that being a hippocratic is included in that, so is worshiping an idol. Breaking of either of these commandments given to us by Jesus makes us guilty of the whole law. That will bring us to the greater ****ation!

That is a shame because your explanation requires part of the Bible to be a lie, mine doesn't.. You MUST exclude James 2:10 as being God's truth, I don't have to exclude Luke 20:47.

You are always changing this from God's perspective to your own.. God's perspective is that if you offend His law in one point you are guilty of all of it.. Your perspective is "if someone committed a sin against ME that hurt ME".. Here is a flash for you Julie God isn't there for you, you are here for Him.. James 2 isn't an excuse for sin it is instead to show us how serious sin is.. Jesus didn't goof, He didn't make a mistake.. Such as those who better, that hurt other or are hippocrates, they all receive the same greater ****ation as does any unforgiven sinner.. IHS jim

[Apologette]

So, what about small children? Babies? Those who never had the opportunity to learn of Christ?

What about them?

[Apologette]

Yes, and how is it only the sons of perdition will go to outer darkness. And what is the "greater punishment"--what is the more severe punishment or what are the rewards or crowns? Who makes the difference from one to another?

Anyone, such as Mormons here, who reject the Biblical Christ (as you willfully do), and continues in unbelief, will be cast into outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Jesus has never known you.

[BigJulie]

Anyone, such as Mormons here, who reject the Biblical Christ (as you willfully do), and continues in unbelief, will be cast into outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Jesus has never known you.

Oh my---I ask you a question based on the stated beliefs here by many "Christians" and your only reply is that I (and those like me) are going to hell. Wow, nothing but judgment. Okay.