Not possible.

[Sir]

Apologette/ Catherine Aurelia said:

"In the "temple" you commune with demons."

But I thought the Anti-LDS complained about NOT being allowed in the temple!! How is it that the LDS are communing with them in there?

[RealFakeHair]

Apologette/ Catherine Aurelia said:

"In the "temple" you commune with demons."

But I thought the Anti-LDS complained about NOT being allowed in the temple!! How is it that the LDS are communing with them in there?

ExMormon review on the temple experiences.
A man view) In the Celestial room that day an old friend of the family, faithful Mormon, came up to shake my hand, and asked me what I thought about it - wasn't it wonderful? Of course, I said yes. And then he said, "Oh, in the old days it was frightening! All this talk about ripping out your tongue and gushing your bowels out on the ground! It's much nicer now!" I remember thinking, but if this is the "correct, pure, unadulterated" endowment as established thousands of years ago by God, how could it have changed?
A woman view)The endowment was bizarre. As we took our seats on the left and dad sat on the right, I remember wondering why "forever families" can't sit together in the temple. I wanted to sit with both my parents. I also remember trying my best to keep up and to not cry in frustration. Of course I didn't know enough to question then why I felt the need to cry in frustration in the house of the lord. I hated the movie. ******. This was in 1987 so I got the full, gory penalties. They scared me. I knew I'd never be able to live up to all those promises, so I just knew god was going to disembowel me before it was over.
Of course, I spent years berating myself for not being worthy enough to feel the spirit of the temple. Of course it was my fault. It had to be my fault. The church couldn't possibly be at fault. But the more I thought about it, the more I realized I hated it. I hate everything about the temple. It just felt so ... wrong.

Another woman's view) It's almost like a miracle," the temple worker gushed as she told me my new name... There were tears in my eyes as I sat there thinking that there must have been *some* reason why Almighty God saw fit to bestow upon me a "new name" that was basically my old name with a change in spelling. Maybe He thought I was a little deficient in the memory department and decided to take it easy on me... :) I had always wished my real name was spelled "Deborah" anyway...so I decided that was God's gift to me...

Of course I hadn't a clue that *every other* woman who went through that day was also receiving Deborah as her new name. That knowledge would definitely have put a dent in the "specialness" of the occasion. It's kinda like how kids are totally astounded by a stage magician's sleight-of-hand until they see how the trick is done...

Another woman's view) And I don't hide my face behind a veil to seek God in prayer---oh that prayer circle hurt. On my wedding day, I was sequestered and alone in mounds of anonymous fabric and not even God --it seemed--could bear the sight of a woman in his circle. How do I covenant to Love that which does not seem to love me enough to abide my sighting? No, I had to leave the temple to eventually to find God---or the animating spirit that moves the universe whatever we call it. The spirit found its way into my body's temple and my heart. Oh, the relief of being known and loved just as I am... its the first step of trusting that I can get to know God too...
So, that was my temple wedding---my trip through Oz...No I didn't see the man (or men) manipulating everything behind the curtains that day --but as we drove off I swear I could see the sky full of flying monkeys who were carrying off my bikini panties and French cut bra...

God Bless you all who are my fellow wayfarers through grief. I will take what is worth keeping and disregard the rest.

I'll trust Jesus Christ's message: "The Kingdom of Heaven is within you." And within me.

[neverending]

ExMormon review on the temple experiences.
A man view) In the Celestial room that day an old friend of the family, faithful Mormon, came up to shake my hand, and asked me what I thought about it - wasn't it wonderful? Of course, I said yes. And then he said, "Oh, in the old days it was frightening! All this talk about ripping out your tongue and gushing your bowels out on the ground! It's much nicer now!" I remember thinking, but if this is the "correct, pure, unadulterated" endowment as established thousands of years ago by God, how could it have changed?
A woman view)The endowment was bizarre. As we took our seats on the left and dad sat on the right, I remember wondering why "forever families" can't sit together in the temple. I wanted to sit with both my parents. I also remember trying my best to keep up and to not cry in frustration. Of course I didn't know enough to question then why I felt the need to cry in frustration in the house of the lord. I hated the movie. ******. This was in 1987 so I got the full, gory penalties. They scared me. I knew I'd never be able to live up to all those promises, so I just knew god was going to disembowel me before it was over.
Of course, I spent years berating myself for not being worthy enough to feel the spirit of the temple. Of course it was my fault. It had to be my fault. The church couldn't possibly be at fault. But the more I thought about it, the more I realized I hated it. I hate everything about the temple. It just felt so ... wrong.

Another woman's view) It's almost like a miracle," the temple worker gushed as she told me my new name... There were tears in my eyes as I sat there thinking that there must have been *some* reason why Almighty God saw fit to bestow upon me a "new name" that was basically my old name with a change in spelling. Maybe He thought I was a little deficient in the memory department and decided to take it easy on me... :) I had always wished my real name was spelled "Deborah" anyway...so I decided that was God's gift to me...

Of course I hadn't a clue that *every other* woman who went through that day was also receiving Deborah as her new name. That knowledge would definitely have put a dent in the "specialness" of the occasion. It's kinda like how kids are totally astounded by a stage magician's sleight-of-hand until they see how the trick is done...

Another woman's view) And I don't hide my face behind a veil to seek God in prayer---oh that prayer circle hurt. On my wedding day, I was sequestered and alone in mounds of anonymous fabric and not even God --it seemed--could bear the sight of a woman in his circle. How do I covenant to Love that which does not seem to love me enough to abide my sighting? No, I had to leave the temple to eventually to find God---or the animating spirit that moves the universe whatever we call it. The spirit found its way into my body's temple and my heart. Oh, the relief of being known and loved just as I am... its the first step of trusting that I can get to know God too...
So, that was my temple wedding---my trip through Oz...No I didn't see the man (or men) manipulating everything behind the curtains that day --but as we drove off I swear I could see the sky full of flying monkeys who were carrying off my bikini panties and French cut bra...

God Bless you all who are my fellow wayfarers through grief. I will take what is worth keeping and disregard the rest.

I'll trust Jesus Christ's message: "The Kingdom of Heaven is within you." And within me.

RFH: This was quite enlightening and hey, it was exactly how I felt when I went through the temple. You are really funny and you should take it on the road....I am not joking. In all honesty, the experience was so horrific and gross that I never went again even at the insistence of James. He really believed all that stuff so he'd go with my Dad. I remember doing a lot of crying the day I got married and wondering how on earth could my parents condone such a thing. Was this what I waited for all my life? Yes, and "what is that? And does it have a name......Oh, that's my knee :)

[Apologette]

RFH: This was quite enlightening and hey, it was exactly how I felt when I went through the temple. You are really funny and you should take it on the road....I am not joking. In all honesty, the experience was so horrific and gross that I never went again even at the insistence of James. He really believed all that stuff so he'd go with my Dad. I remember doing a lot of crying the day I got married and wondering how on earth could my parents condone such a thing. Was this what I waited for all my life? Yes, and "what is that? And does it have a name......Oh, that's my knee :)

I think women are more sensitive very often to the leading of the Holy Spirit. Obviously, God didn't want you in those occult temples.

[nrajeffreturns]

Apologette/ Catherine Aurelia said:
"In the "temple" you commune with demons."
But I thought the Anti-LDS complained about NOT being allowed in the temple!! How is it that the LDS are communing with them in there?

It took me 5 seconds before I got it. LOL.

[RealFakeHair]

It took me 5 seconds before I got it. LOL.

Only 5 second, why in my day.......
I been a LDS ward building once does that count?
I mistook it for the YMCA caferteria.

[Apologette]

Only 5 second, why in my day.......
I been a LDS ward building once does that count?
I mistook it for the YMCA caferteria.

They aren't exactly known for aesthetics are they? Ugly!

[Billyray]

But I thought the Anti-LDS complained about NOT being allowed in the temple!! How is it that the LDS are communing with them in there?
When you see the "dead" who appear to you while in the temple. I hear story after story about this from active LDS.

[Apologette]

When you see the "dead" who appear to you while in the temple. I hear story after story about this from active LDS.

I've read accounts of Mormons being contacted by dead ancestors. Don't they realize they are messing with demons?

[alanmolstad]

Apologette/ Catherine Aurelia said:

"In the "temple" you commune with demons."

Its not a question I , or anyone else can know for sure....

But just based on what I have seen in several videos of the super-secret Mormon goings on inside the typical Mormon temple?....I would have to agree, we are likely seeing Mormons call forth and worship Demons while there.....that much does seem clear to me....

[theway]

I've read accounts of Mormons being contacted by dead ancestors. Don't they realize they are messing with demons?
Dead ancestors are demons???


LOL... man you've got some crazy, unbiblical, silly theology there.

[alanmolstad]

it is a very valid idea, that if a person is contacted by a spirit that claims to be a long-lost member of the family, and that this spirit then teaches about a different Gospel than what we have already received in the Bible?....then it is a very real possibility that what you are dealing with is a demon....


So it's not who the spirit appears to be that counts...it's what they say that counts.

[RealFakeHair]

Dead ancestors are demons???


LOL... man you've got some crazy, unbiblical, silly theology there.

I see dead people, but why do they still have their clothes on?

[theway]

it is a very valid idea, that if a person is contacted by a spirit that claims to be a long-lost member of the family, and that this spirit then teaches about a different Gospel than what we have already received in the Bible?....then it is a very real possibility that what you are dealing with is a demon....


So it's not who the spirit appears to be that counts...it's what they say that counts.
Two problems...
First, you ***ume that you would know the truth and would be able to recognize a different gospel.
Second, CA has already falsely stated that any contact with someone who has p***ed on is Satanic. This is the first time that she has implied that everyone who has died are now demons.
Funny, given that demons are rebellious angels, and CA said that people are not angels and can not become angels.

She has a hard time keeping her theology straight.

[Phoenix]

Two problems...
First, you ***ume that you would know the truth and would be able to recognize a different gospel.
Second, CA has already falsely stated that any contact with someone who has p***ed on is Satanic. This is the first time that she has implied that everyone who has died are now demons.
Funny, given that demons are rebellious angels, and CA said that people are not angels and can not become angels.

She has a hard time keeping her theology straight.


You can add into the mixture this: Libby believes that NO BEINGS appeared to Joseph Smith. No beings at all, not heavenly ones, and not demonic ones either. Which leaves the maze of anti-Mormonism in chaos, since their various theories to explain stuff contradict each other.

[Libby]

Apologette is not saying that the actual "dead relative" is a demon. She is saying that demons are replying and/or appearing as the dead relative. They are taking advantage of a person's belief that they can commune with the dead.

[theway]

Apologette is not saying that the actual "dead relative" is a demon. She is saying that demons are replying and/or appearing as the dead relative. They are taking advantage of a person's belief that they can commune with the dead.No, that is not what she believes. She believes ANY contact with ANYONE who has died is necromancy, and therefore Satanic; ergo, it is no small step to then believe that all dead people you can communicate with are therefore demons.

If you are trying to save her from herself, then you have taken upon yourself a full time ***.

[teenapenny]

No, that is not what she believes. She believes ANY contact with ANYONE who has died is necromancy, and therefore Satanic; ergo, it is no small step to then believe that all dead people you can communicate with are therefore demons.

If you are trying to save her from herself, then you have taken upon yourself a full time ***.
What makes you an expert on what she believes? I agree with Libby.

[theway]

What makes you an expert on what she believes? I agree with Libby.No body can be an expert on what she believes as it is constantly changing.
I am basing what I know of her on what she has already affirmatively ***erted.
Now if that information or theology sounds silly, that is not my doing.

[Gary_Biblelover]

I've read accounts of Mormons being contacted by dead ancestors. Don't they realize they are messing with demons?

AMEN. And I remember reading an account from a church prophet (Sorry, can't recall which) He was alone in the temple and began seeing orbs floating around, and hearing strange, melodious music. These are definitely not manifestations from above. But quite the opposite. That should give anyone who reads this a very good idea of where they were coming from. And this is not an isolated account. During the dedication of the Kirtland temple, there were accounts of men whose eyes physically changed, and men yowling like a panther, and other occurences that to anyone but the most uninformed demonic.

[theway]

AMEN. And I remember reading an account from a church prophet (Sorry, can't recall which) He was alone in the temple and began seeing orbs floating around, and hearing strange, melodious music. These are definitely not manifestations from above. But quite the opposite. That should give anyone who reads this a very good idea of where they were coming from. And this is not an isolated account. During the dedication of the Kirtland temple, there were accounts of men whose eyes physically changed, and men yowling like a panther, and other occurences that to anyone but the most uninformed demonic.
So then do you believe like CA that all dead people are demons?

[RealFakeHair]

AMEN. And I remember reading an account from a church prophet (Sorry, can't recall which) He was alone in the temple and began seeing orbs floating around, and hearing strange, melodious music. These are definitely not manifestations from above. But quite the opposite. That should give anyone who reads this a very good idea of where they were coming from. And this is not an isolated account. During the dedication of the Kirtland temple, there were accounts of men whose eyes physically changed, and men yowling like a panther, and other occurences that to anyone but the most uninformed demonic.
I don't know, but what ever he was smokin, I'd like to try.....

[RealFakeHair]

So then do you believe like CA that all dead people are demons?

All dead people are called zombies

[alanmolstad]

Two problems...
First, you ***ume that you would know the truth and would be able to recognize a different gospel.
Second, CA has already falsely stated that any contact with someone who has p***ed on is Satanic. This is the first time that she has implied that everyone who has died are now demons.
Funny, given that demons are rebellious angels, and CA said that people are not angels and can not become angels.

She has a hard time keeping her theology straight.
My view is that any spirit that claims to be a long dead family member and then teaches different than the Christian faith, is actually a demon too.

its not the actual family member at all, but is a demon acting like a family member with the aim of teaching error and lies.

So the person that has told you that people that have died and then later appeared to others teaching a different religion are actually demons is CORRECT!

.

[alanmolstad]

Two problems...
First, you ***ume that you would know the truth and would be able to recognize a different gospel.
.
Yes, that is what I claim to be able to do, and do so now with the guidance given us in the example and warnings seen in the words of Paul as I have quoted..
I judge any claim I hear by the Bible
I judge any teaching I hear by the Bible....and reject anything that does not agree,

[alanmolstad]

Apologette is not saying that the actual "dead relative" is a demon. She is saying that demons are replying and/or appearing as the dead relative. They are taking advantage of a person's belief that they can commune with the dead.

Once again, Libby is correct!

[alanmolstad]

Once again, Libby is correct!





(keep up the good work Libby, fight the good fight!)

[theway]

My view is that any spirit that claims to be a long dead family member and then teaches different than the Christian faith, is actually a demon too.

its not the actual family member at all, but is a demon acting like a family member with the aim of teaching error and lies.

So the person that has told you that people that have died and then later appeared to others teaching a different religion are actually demons is CORRECT!

.
You run into the same problems I listed before, the most important one is...

You ***ume that you know what is the Christian Faith. To be frank, I don't think anybody here would agree that you know that.

[alanmolstad]

You run into the same problem problems I listed before, the most important one is...

You ***ume that you know what is the Christian Faith. To be frank, I don't think anybody here would agree that you know that.

The Christian faith I know...
You just have to do what they did to Paul and his teachings. (see ACTS 17:11)

as for not being agreement with "anybody here"????.....LOL, I remember Billy used to say that to me all the time....

[theway]

Yes, that is what I claim to be able to do, and do so now with the guidance given us in the example and warnings seen in the words of Paul as I have quoted..
I judge any claim I hear by the Bible
I judge any teaching I hear by the Bible....and reject anything that does not agree,
Paul never said anything about judging whether what you hear is correct are not by the Bible, you are making stuff up again.

Anyway there is a little test to see if you would be able to judge correctly.

If a Angel came to you and said that water baptism is a requirement of salvation, is that Angel an Angel of Light, or a demon?

[theway]

The Christian faith I know...Oh I'm absolutely sure that's true.



You just have to do what they did to Paul and his teachings. (see ACTS 17:11)Really, so what happened in the test they did?



as for not being agreement with "anybody here"????.....LOL, I remember Billy used to say that to me all the time....if you pine nostalgic, I can continue that for you.:D

[alanmolstad]

Paul never said anything about judging whether what you hear is correct are not by the Bible,

The way i read the account of the people opening up their Text to check out what Paul was saying compared to what was already given, it leads me to the conclusion that "This Is How We Are To Do It!!!!!!!!!!"


Thus I reject your idea totally......

[alanmolstad]

if you pine nostalgic, I can continue that for you.:DI'm just pointing out that telling me that "Alan, you disagree with most other people here on the forum!".....is not really going to cause me to have 2nd thoughts over squat!

[alanmolstad]

If a Angel came to you and said that water baptism is a requirement of salvation, is that Angel an Angel of Light, or a demon?

"a requirement"??????

I would point the angel to the case of the thief on the cross.....and ask the angel to get back to me once he has done a bit more study on the issue....

[alanmolstad]

a requirement?..........

my answer is thus -


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FT-8_VDMERo

Baptism is listed not within a divine "required" order of salvation.....Rather its listed as a sign of salvation....
the water is not magic.....washing dirt off your skin can make you 'cleaner" on the outside, but it does nothing to you on the insides.....

[theway]

The way i read the account of the people opening up their Text to check out what Paul was saying compared to what was already given, it leads me to the conclusion that "This Is How We Are To Do It!!!!!!!!!!"


Thus I reject your idea totally......Once again... If this is how one determines truth, then what was the outcome of the test?

[theway]

"a requirement"??????

I would point the angel to the case of the thief on the cross.....and ask the angel to get back to me once he has done a bit more study on the issue....This is not an answer to my simple question.

[theway]

a requirement?..........

my answer is thus -

Baptism is listed not within a divine "required" order of salvation.....Rather its listed as a sign of salvation....
the water is not magic.....washing dirt off your skin can make you 'cleaner" on the outside, but it does nothing to you on the insides.....
This is not an answer to my simple question.

[alanmolstad]

Once again... If this is how one determines truth, then what was the outcome of the test?

The outcome is the lesson we learn from the verse.

The lesson is that when anyone comes to us with some type of new idea or a new teaching, we take it and compare it to the Text ...

Test all things, hold fast to what is true, reject anything that is different..

[alanmolstad]

This is not an answer to my simple question.
The answer is to understand that the thief on the cross is not a exception, its an "example" of how salvation comes to us....
Was he Baptized?....nope, but he did have faith as seen in his confession to Christ.

[alanmolstad]

This is not an answer to my simple question.

watch the video....

[alanmolstad]

... If this is how one determines truth, yes.....it is.....

[Phoenix]

Was he Baptized?....nope,
How do you know he had never been baptized?

[John T]

http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by theway http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?p=159279#post159279)

Paul never said anything about judging whether what you hear is correct are not by the Bible,


The way i read the account of the people opening up their Text to check out what Paul was saying compared to what was already given, it leads me to the conclusion that "This Is How We Are To Do It!!!!!!!!!!"

Thus I reject your idea totally......

Paul knew that because he was an Apostle, he was writing books that were as equal in authority as any book of OT canon. that is why he could write:
.
2 Timothy 3: 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


Due to the fact that ALL LDS people are spiritually blinded by Satan according to
.
2 Corinthians 4: 3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

.
they are completely unable to see that truth above. That is sad, really, but all they really need to do to have the spiritual blindness taken away is to ask Jesus to heal them in the same way that Jesus healed the lepers, and made blind people see.

[theway]

The outcome is the lesson we learn from the verse.

The lesson is that when anyone comes to us with some type of new idea or a new teaching, we take it and compare it to the Text ...

Test all things, hold fast to what is true, reject anything that is different..
For the third time now....
What was the result of their test?

[theway]

Paul knew that because he was an Apostle, he was writing books that were as equal in authority as any book of OT canon. that is why he could write:
.
2 Timothy 3: 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


Due to the fact that ALL LDS people are spiritually blinded by Satan according to
.
2 Corinthians 4: 3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

.
they are completely unable to see that truth above. That is sad, really, but all they really need to do to have the spiritual blindness taken away is to ask Jesus to heal them in the same way that Jesus healed the lepers, and made blind people see.

....YAWN.....

Same olde boring rant from JohnT.

[alanmolstad]

Paul knew that because he was an Apostle, he was writing books that were as equal in authority as any book of OT canon. that is why he could write:
.
2 Timothy 3: 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


Due to the fact that ALL LDS people are spiritually blinded by Satan according to
.
2 Corinthians 4: 3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

.
they are completely unable to see that truth above. That is sad, really, but all they really need to do to have the spiritual blindness taken away is to ask Jesus to heal them in the same way that Jesus healed the lepers, and made blind people see.
Amen John, well said!

[Libby]

It was a good post, except I would not claim that it's "a fact that all LDS people are spiritually blinded by satan".

I don't like to see broad brushing, like that. It's the same as claiming all Baptists are spiritually blinded or all Calvinists are spiritually blinded. "ALL" is almost never appropriate, especially when in reference to the spiritual state of human beings. We are individuals and our standing with God cannot always be judged by the church we attend or the theology we believe.

[Phoenix]

It was a good post, except I would not claim that it's "a fact that all LDS people are spiritually blinded by satan".

I don't like to see broad brushing, like that. It's the same as claiming all Baptists are spiritually blinded or all Calvinists are spiritually blinded. "ALL" is almost never appropriate, especially when in reference to the spiritual state of human beings. We are individuals and our standing with God cannot always be judged by the church we attend or the theology we believe.

Once again, Libby is correct!
(keep up the good work Libby, fight the good fight!)

[Libby]

lol........

[alanmolstad]

We are individuals and our standing with God cannot always be judged by the church we attend or the theology we believe.

I will not be judged by the theology of others and what they believe....

But Libby, I will be judged by the theology I believe.

[theway]

I will not be judged by the theology of others and what they believe....

But Libby, I will be judged by the theology I believe.Nonsense.....
For even the demons believe.

Faith without works is dead; if you have the correct belief but have not put into practise that belief, it will be actually worse for you at the judgement.

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

[alanmolstad]

theology is key to faith in the true Jesus....and not putting your faith in the wrong Jesus, a false Jesus, and thereby end up burning forever and ever in Hell....

For we are saved not by works, but by Grace thought FAITH....and So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God...thus the "word of God" (theology) is where this all starts with.

This is why we are sent to "teach" the lost......we teach the lost because what theology they have will play a key position of their finally having faith in the correct Jesus and not in a false Jesus .

For the Grace that will save them comes "though" faith.......

[Libby]

I will not be judged by the theology of others and what they believe....

But Libby, I will be judged by the theology I believe.

Okay, I should modify that a bit. I was thinking more in terms of all the stuff we tend to argue about on this board (like free will and baptism, etc...the peripheral stuff)..We will be judged by our faith in Christ...nothing more.

[theway]

Okay, I should modify that a bit. I was thinking more in terms of all the stuff we tend to argue about on this board (like free will and baptism, etc...the peripheral stuff)..We will be judged by our faith in Christ...nothing more.Once again, what Nonsense...
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

[Libby]

Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

See how easy it is to cherry pick verses?

You will find all of the rest of the Bible talks about salvation by grace through faith. Works are the "fruit" of salvation.

[theway]

Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

See how easy it is to cherry pick verses?

You will find all of the rest of the Bible talks about salvation by grace through faith. Works are the "fruit" of salvation.
Exactly! Content is important. For example the verse you posted means that you could do everything perfectly, but you would still not be able to be saved. It is only through Grace that we are saved. The LDS believe this.

And no... The rest of the Bible is clear that what we do in this life effects whether or not we are saved. This idea of "Cheap Grace" made popular by Calvin and then Evangelicals, is of modern construct, and is still only believed by about 12% to 18% of Christianity even after about five hundred years. The rest of Christianity see it as a heresy, the LDS just happen to agree with them.

This argument about which comes first, is merely a Chicken and egg argument which has its own paradoxes.
For instance, if a person believes he is saved yet goes out and kills 2 people and rapes 3 others... Is he still saved?

[teenapenny]

Exactly! Content is important. For example the verse you posted means that you could do everything perfectly, but you would still not be able to be saved. It is only through Grace that we are saved. The LDS believe this.

And no... The rest of the Bible is clear that what we do in this life effects whether or not we are saved. This idea of "Cheap Grace" made popular by Calvin and then Evangelicals, is of modern construct, and is still only believed by about 12% to 18% of Christianity even after about five hundred years. The rest of Christianity see it as a heresy, the LDS just happen to agree with them.

This argument about which comes first, is merely a Chicken and egg argument which has its own paradoxes.
For instance, if a person believes he is saved yet goes out and kills 2 people and rapes 3 others... Is he still saved?
A person needs to believe that Jesus died for his sins to be saved, if that person went out and killed 2 people and rape 3 others, then he did not truly believe in Jesus.

[theway]

A person needs to believe that Jesus died for his sins to be saved, if that person went out and killed 2 people and rape 3 others, then he did not truly believe in Jesus.Did you just notice the paradox/contradiction you just created with your Faith Alone heresy as you wrote your statement?

You have NO idea whether or not that person believes that Jesus died for his sins, you went straight to claiming that he couldn't be saved because his works were evil. In other words you just tied works with salvation.

Which leads us to the next paradox. Where do we draw the line as to the degree of sin or the amount of sin, that we can use as a rule to know whether or not a person was REALLY SAVED by his faith.
Obviously you think that 2 murders and 3 rapes was too much. But how about 1 murder? Can a person commit just one murder and because he had a faith in Jesus before that, would he still be saved?

How about 1 lie? Can I commit just one lie after declaring that I was saved through Faith and still be saved?

Or does one have to be perfect; because if I am not perfect someone will claim I was not truely saved to begin with? Where is that line?

I could go on forever with the impossible paradoxes of Faith Alone, but let's just start with these.

[RealFakeHair]

A person needs to believe that Jesus died for his sins to be saved, if that person went out and killed 2 people and rape 3 others, then he did not truly believe in Jesus.

So if she went out and killed on person and raped 2 then she truly believed in Jesus?

[theway]

So if she went out and killed on person and raped 2 then she truly believed in Jesus?I think you can see where I was going with my question, and why it was worded the way it was.

You either believe in Faith Alone, or you do not.
There is no middle ground.

That is the problem with Evangelical/Calvinist Christianity; they feign a belief in Faith Alone, but deep down nobody actually really believes that mess.

[Phoenix]

Did you just notice the paradox/contradiction you just created with your Faith Alone heresy as you wrote your statement?

You have NO idea whether or not that person believes that Jesus died for his sins, you went straight to claiming that he couldn't be saved because his works were evil. In other words you just tied works with salvation.

Which leads us to the next paradox. Where do we draw the line as to the degree of sin or the amount of sin, that we can use as a rule to know whether or not a person was REALLY SAVED by his faith.
Obviously you think that 2 murders and 3 rapes was too much. But how about 1 murder? Can a person commit just one murder and because he had a faith in Jesus before that, would he still be saved?

How about 1 lie? Can I commit just one lie after declaring that I was saved through Faith and still be saved?

Or does one have to be perfect; because if I am not perfect someone will claim I was not truely saved to begin with? Where is that line?

I could go on forever with the impossible paradoxes of Faith Alone, but let's just start with these.

Wow, that was really good. I don't know that I have ever seen a more cogent and concise explanation of the problem before.

I will try to remember this line of reasoning so I can use it the next time this issue is brought up. Thanks, theway.

[teenapenny]

So if she went out and killed on person and raped 2 then she truly believed in Jesus?
You must be kidding. Theway was the one using those numbers. If a person killed or raped anyone, it shows they did not believe in Jesus.

[RealFakeHair]

You must be kidding. Theway was the one using those numbers. If a person killed or raped anyone, it shows they did not believe in Jesus.

I never kid, well most the time I do kid, is that the same as child?
Anyways, You are judging whether or not the person was saved. The face is we don't know the answer to the question, but we can say we have our doubts.

[disciple]

I never kid, well most the time I do kid, is that the same as child?
Anyways, You are judging whether or not the person was saved. The face is we don't know the answer to the question, but we can say we have our doubts.

How many times have we seen this statement in the Epistles, "We do not want you to be deceived brethren"? It's obvious by the Apostles concern that Christians can be deceived, which often leads to sin, sometimes terrible sin. God knows the heart.

[RealFakeHair]

How many times have we seen this statement in the Epistles, "We do not want you to be deceived brethren"? It's obvious by the Apostles concern that Christians can be deceived, which often leads to sin, sometimes terrible sin. God knows the heart.

There it is,the (heart).

[theway]

You must be kidding. Theway was the one using those numbers. If a person killed or raped anyone, it shows they did not believe in Jesus.
So now you are saying that there are weight or degrees to sin.

In other words murder is a greater sin than lying.... Can I fornicate as long as it's not adultery? Can I be the world's greatest liar just as long as I don't murder anyone?
If so, which sin is the cut-off line which would tell me I was never saved to begin with?

Or if it is not a matter of degree and all sins carry the same weight, then is it the quan***y that matters?
If, what is the cut-off line for the number of sins I am allowed before I am declared "not really saved to begin with"?

Please let us know?

[theway]

I never kid, well most the time I do kid, is that the same as child?
Anyways, You are judging whether or not the person was saved. The face is we don't know the answer to the question, but we can say we have our doubts.Well, if this is true, then you are admitting that nobody can know for sure whether they are saved or not because nobody knows exactly what the rules are.

[theway]

How many times have we seen this statement in the Epistles, "We do not want you to be deceived brethren"? It's obvious by the Apostles concern that Christians can be deceived, which often leads to sin, sometimes terrible sin. God knows the heart.Them's some mighty fine pla***udes you've got there!.......mighty fine!

Although for this conversation they are totally useless and have no meaning, unless you are willing to explain exactly how they would apply to Faith Alone or Salvation security?

[disciple]

Them's some mighty fine pla***udes you've got there!.......mighty fine!

Although for this conversation they are totally useless and have no meaning, unless you are willing to explain exactly how they would apply to Faith Alone or Salvation security?

Hello Way,
If you think my remarks or statement, especially the one with a moral content, has been used too often to be interesting or thoughtful, don't read them.

[theway]

Hello Way,
If you think my remarks or statement, especially the one with a moral content, has been used too often to be interesting or thoughtful, don't read them.
If that's the way you leave them, then they are indeed useless meanderings.

So many Critics simply post a scripture knowing that we would interpret the scriptures differently, yet they post it anyway to make it seem like they have silenced the Mormon with scripture. But when I ask for them to explain exactly how it relates they'll say "I already answered you".
When in fact all they have done is waste everybody's time, just as you have done.

Now if you are OK with me simply posting a scripture or a pla***ude to every question and for every post without comment, then let me know.
However by those same rules you will not be able to respond to my posts, or challenge them.

[disciple]

If that's the way you leave them, then they are indeed useless meanderings.

So many Critics simply post a scripture knowing that we would interpret the scriptures differently, yet they post it anyway to make it seem like they have silenced the Mormon with scripture. But when I ask for them to explain exactly how it relates they'll say "I already answered you".
When in fact all they have done is waste everybody's time, just as you have done.

Now if you are OK with me simply posting a scripture to every question and for every post without comment, then let me know.
However you will not be able by those same rules to respond to my posts.

First of all, this is a discussion forum, the point is for people to read and make comments. Second I didn't even know you were a Mormon and I certainly have no need to silence anyone. So lets start again. Hello Way, best wishes. Disciple.

[theway]

First of all, this is a discussion forum, the point is for people to read and make comments. Second I didn't even know you were a Mormon and I certainly have no need to silence anyone. So lets start again. Hello Way, best wishes. Disciple.
Hello disciple, do you have anything to add to the questions I asked, or Faith Alone?
I would be glad to engage in a discussion about these.

[Phoenix]

Them's some mighty fine pla***udes you've got there!.......mighty fine!


That reminded me of the time I was driving down a narrow country road in one of the Southern states. I would sometimes put my kids in the car and take them for a drive to get them to sleep when it was their naptime. One day, as I was driving, a hillbilly-type man was standing on the edge of the road, in front of his house. He motioned for me to stop next to where he was standing. I thought maybe he needed directions or help. He looked into the open window, saw my young sons in the back seat, and said:

"That's some mighty fine looking boys you got there."

That creeped me out, so I stammered "Uh, thanks" and got out of there.

[theway]

That reminded me of the time I was driving down a narrow country road in one of the Southern states. I would sometimes put my kids in the car and take them for a drive to get them to sleep when it was their naptime. One day, as I was driving, a hillbilly-type man was standing on the edge of the road, in front of his house. He motioned for me to stop next to where he was standing. I thought maybe he needed directions or help. He looked into the open window, saw my young sons in the back seat, and said:

"That's some mighty fine looking boys you got there."

That creeped me out, so I stammered "Uh, thanks" and got out of there.I guess I'm just thinking hillbilly because my first son is still on a mission in Atlanta, Ga. And my second son will be leaving in a couple days to go on his mission to Nashville, Tennessee. I keep teasing him by talking this way to him.

[Phoenix]

I guess I'm just thinking hillbilly because my first son is still on a mission in Atlanta, Ga. And my second son will be leaving in a couple days to go on his mission to Nashville, Tennessee. I keep teasing him by talking this way to him.

2 sons out at the same time? I will probably be in the same boat soon.

[Libby]

Did you just notice the paradox/contradiction you just created with your Faith Alone heresy as you wrote your statement?

You have NO idea whether or not that person believes that Jesus died for his sins, you went straight to claiming that he couldn't be saved because his works were evil. In other words you just tied works with salvation.

Which leads us to the next paradox. Where do we draw the line as to the degree of sin or the amount of sin, that we can use as a rule to know whether or not a person was REALLY SAVED by his faith.
Obviously you think that 2 murders and 3 rapes was too much. But how about 1 murder? Can a person commit just one murder and because he had a faith in Jesus before that, would he still be saved?

How about 1 lie? Can I commit just one lie after declaring that I was saved through Faith and still be saved?

Or does one have to be perfect; because if I am not perfect someone will claim I was not truely saved to begin with? Where is that line?

I could go on forever with the impossible paradoxes of Faith Alone, but let's just start with these.

Two points. First of all, it's highly unlikely that someone who truly believed in Jesus would intentionally murder someone (unless it were in self defense)...which, I think, was teenapenny's point.

Second, I believe one can be forgiven of any sin, including murder, if they are genuinely repentant. The key word being "repentant".

So, works are not really the issue...it is one's heart, and where they place their faith/belief/hope.

[RealFakeHair]

Well, if this is true, then you are admitting that nobody can know for sure whether they are saved or not because nobody knows exactly what the rules are.

Oh, boy did you step into it. It is the LDSinc. You folks don't know all the rules. There is only one rule for the Believer in Christ. John 3:16

[theway]

Oh, boy did you step into it. It is the LDSinc. You folks don't know all the rules. There is only one rule for the Believer in Christ. John 3:16LOL....

Do you see now Disciple what I'm up against?



So many Critics simply post a scripture knowing that we would interpret the scriptures differently, yet they post it anyway to make it seem like they have silenced the Mormon with scripture.

[RealFakeHair]

LOL....

Do you see now Disciple what I'm up against?

So tell me do you know all the commandments from the LDS gods you are to obey in order to gain Exaltation?

[theway]

Two points. First of all, it's highly unlikely that someone who truly believed in Jesus would intentionally murder someone (unless it were in self defense)...which, I think, was teenapenny's point.Do you really base your theology on whether something is "highly unlikely" or not???

Faith Alone is either true, or it is not. Everything in between including that which is "highly likely" and "highly unlikely" is not considered.


Second, I believe one can be forgiven of any sin, including murder, if they are genuinely repentant. The key word being "repentant".If works are not a requirement before one is saved, or after one is saved, then repentance is completely unnecessary. If one is OSAS then forgiveness is also unnecessary. After all why would I have to repent and be forgiven of some evil work, if works (either good or bad) will not change my standing with God one way or the other?


So, works are not really the issue...it is one's heart, and where they place their faith/belief/hope.Once again... You guys always mouth a belief in Faith Alone, but you guys never actually believe in it.
Otherwise please answer the questions I already asked penny.

[Libby]

If works are not a requirement before one is saved, or after one is saved, then repentance is completely unnecessary. If one is OSAS then forgiveness is also unnecessary. After all why would I have to repent and be forgiven if it will not change my standing with God one way or the other?


Why do you think that works is something we "choose"? If you are saved, the works will flow from that. You know why? Because you have the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of Christ) abiding in you and those "good works" spring from HIM. Not from you. How could they count towards salvation, when they didn't even originate from you? They DO count for salvation, but not in the way you think. God's work, all of it.

I say "highly unlikely" because I "know" that someone who has Christ abiding in them, would be very unlikely to commit that kind of sin. But, highly unlikely doesn't mean "never" (I don't like absolutes, because most things, involving humans, are never absolute)...there are always exceptions. And, we DO sin, even with Christ in us...we all do. Which means we need repentance.

As for repentance, we don't just "have to" repent...we WANT to repent. True followers of Christ are very upset, when they sin and cannot repent soon enough. We beg for Christ's forgiveness!

[alanmolstad]

Why do you think that works is something we "choose"? If you are saved, the works will flow from that. You know why? Because you have the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of Christ) abiding in you and those "good works" spring from HIM. Not from you. How could they count towards salvation, when they didn't even originate from you? They DO count for salvation, but not in the way you think. God's work, all of it.

!
Libby, this was a very good answer!


I know I have not been able to post here as much as I used to due to my work, but it is nice to drop-in see that you got everything under control...

[RealFakeHair]

Libby, this was a very good answer!


I know I have not been able to post here as much as I used to due to my work, but it is nice to drop-in see that you got everything under control...

quit you *** so you can have more time here

[Libby]

Libby, this was a very good answer!


I know I have not been able to post here as much as I used to due to my work, but it is nice to drop-in see that you got everything under control...

Hi Alan! Thanks for the encouragement, as always. :)

Work gets in the way, doesn't it? When can you retire? lol ;)

[theway]

Why do you think that works is something we "choose"? If you are saved, the works will flow from that. You know why? Because you have the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of Christ) abiding in you and those "good works" spring from HIM. Not from you. How could they count towards salvation, when they didn't even originate from you? They DO count for salvation, but not in the way you think. God's work, all of it.!Here's yet another paradox that Faith Aloners refuse to admit to. You claim that God does everything, even when it comes to your faith. Yet when you say that God does everything, then by that theory you have to mean EVERYTHING, including all the evil done. Yet if you then claim that God does everything which is good, and man does everything that is bad, then it doesn't matter whether we sin or not, or how bad we sin. Because this is how God made us, and we had no choice or free agency, in our making. In order to be saved then, it will have to all happen against our will. If this is so, the God is to blame if I am not saved, as salvation has nothing to do with anything I do or believe.

Do you see how many contradictions exist in this one small part of a Faith Aloner's belief?
This is why you have to believe in all the points of Calvinism in order to get Faith Alone to work right. And I have yet to see anyone who actually believes in all five points, even a Calvinist.


I say "highly unlikely" because I "know" that someone who has Christ abiding in them, would be very unlikely to commit that kind of sin. But, highly unlikely doesn't mean "never" (I don't like absolutes, because most things, involving humans, are never absolute)...there are always exceptions. And, we DO sin, even with Christ in us...we all do. Which means we need repentance.!You may not like absolutes, but without absolutes there would be no justice. God is not a wishy-washy God.
If you believe a person can be saved by a one time Altar Call, then you are saying that justice has been satisfied once and for all. So any further repentance is unneeded and a waste of time, as it will not change to the smallest degree your standing before God. Besides, if repentance is a good work, and you just said that all good works are from God, then it is God who needs to work the good work of repentance, not me.



As for repentance, we don't just "have to" repent...we WANT to repent. True followers of Christ are very upset, when they sin and cannot repent soon enough. We beg for Christ's forgiveness!To what end?
If we are saved, and nothing can take away that salvation, then repentance and forgiveness are unnecessary and wasted as it has no power to change anything. Also, since God does it all in your theories, then "your WANTS" are meaningless.
Perfection is economy! God never does anything, or requires anything, that is unneeded or unnecessary. To say otherwise is to say God is not perfect.

This is the heresy of Faith Alone or Calvinism/Evangelicalism.
It causes so many unBiblical paradoxes and contradictions to God's Words, that the real Author of this confusion is clear.

[disciple]

Here's yet another paradox that Faith Aloners refuse to admit to. You claim that God does everything, even when it comes to your faith. Yet when you say that God does everything, then by that theory you have to mean EVERYTHING, including all the evil done. Yet if you then claim that God does everything which is good, and man does everything that is bad, then it doesn't matter whether we sin or not, or how bad we sin. Because this is how God made us, and we had no choice or free agency, in our making. In order to be saved then, it will have to all happen against our will. If this is so, the God is to blame if I am not saved, as salvation has nothing to do with anything I do or believe.

Do you see how many contradictions exist in this one small part of a Faith Aloner's belief?
This is why you have to believe in all the points of Calvinism in order to get Faith Alone to work right. And I have yet to see anyone who actually believes in all five points, even a Calvinist.

You may not like absolutes, but without absolutes there would be no justice. God is not a wishy-washy God.
If you believe a person can be saved by a one time Altar Call, then you are saying that justice has been satisfied once and for all. So any further repentance is unneeded and a waste of time, as it will not change to the smallest degree your standing before God. Besides, if repentance is a good work, and you just said that all good works are from God, then it is God who needs to work the good work of repentance, not me.


To what end?
If we are saved, and nothing can take away that salvation, then repentance and forgiveness are unnecessary and wasted as it has no power to change anything. Also, since God does it all in your theories, then "your WANTS" are meaningless.
Perfection is economy! God never does anything, or requires anything, that is unneeded or unnecessary. To say otherwise is to say God is not perfect.

This is the heresy of Faith Alone or Calvinism/Evangelicalism.
It causes so many unBiblical paradoxes and contradictions to God's Words, that the real Author of this confusion is clear.
Way, you have referenced scripture from James, so the key question here is: Does James aim to refute the doctrine of Paul that justification is by faith alone see Romans 4:1-5, or does James aim to refute an abuse of Paul's teaching and bring truth to the churches he was writing to? Galatians 5:6 says, "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love." So when Paul dealt with the abuse of his doctrine of justification by faith alone, he said: It's not added works like circumcision that will win God's favor. What then? It is "faith working through love." Notice very carefully what he says. What counts with God? "Faith." But what kind of faith? Faith that "works through love." He does not say that what counts with God is "faith" plus a layer of loving works added to faith. He says that what counts with God is the kind of faith that by its nature produces love. But it is faith that gives us our right standing with God. The love that comes from it only shows that it is, in fact, real living, justifying faith. Now that, I think, is what James was trying to get across to his churches. Loveless faith is absolutely useless; and anybody that comes along and says "We are justified by faith alone, and so you don't have to be a loving person to go to heaven" is not telling the truth. So James' concern is that people have real saving faith, not counterfeit faith. And the difference is that the real faith produces loving behavior or works.

[Libby]

Here's yet another paradox that Faith Aloners refuse to admit to. You claim that God does everything, even when it comes to your faith. Yet when you say that God does everything, then by that theory you have to mean EVERYTHING, including all the evil done. Yet if you then claim that God does everything which is good, and man does everything that is bad, then it doesn't matter whether we sin or not, or how bad we sin. Because this is how God made us, and we had no choice or free agency, in our making. In order to be saved then, it will have to all happen against our will. If this is so, the God is to blame if I am not saved, as salvation has nothing to do with anything I do or believe.

Do you see how many contradictions exist in this one small part of a Faith Aloner's belief?
This is why you have to believe in all the points of Calvinism in order to get Faith Alone to work right. And I have yet to see anyone who actually believes in all five points, even a Calvinist.

You don't have to be a Calvinist to believe in faith alone. Most Protestant Christians believe in faith alone (which simply means, works do not save us).

As for your comments, you have to understand that faith alone is in reference to salvation....not "everything", as you have discussed above. God certainly did create everything, including us, but he did not cause us to sin. I believe he gave us free will (agency, as you would say) and sin is the result of that agency.


You may not like absolutes, but without absolutes there would be no justice. God is not a wishy-washy God.

I don't like absolutes when referring to "people"...which is what I was talking about. God is solid and eternally true.


If you believe a person can be saved by a one time Altar Call, then you are saying that justice has been satisfied once and for all. So any further repentance is unneeded and a waste of time, as it will not change to the smallest degree your standing before God. Besides, if repentance is a good work, and you just said that all good works are from God, then it is God who needs to work the good work of repentance, not me.

The bolded part!!! YES, that's it, exactly, TW!!! Jesus satisfied justice once and for all! We cannot improve on that! Never Never Never!

[Libby]

Off to music cl***. I'll be back later. :)

[alanmolstad]

I believe he gave us free will (agency, as you would say) I have run into Calvinists that hate the term "Free Will" so much that they try their best to replace the term with the other term "agency" in the conversation....at times even refusing to even say the words "Free Will"...LOL

[Libby]

They're mostly okay with the word "will"...just don't add "free" to it! That is an ***ault on God's sovereignty. :)

LDS actually do mean "free will", when they use "agency".

[alanmolstad]

as for the topic's main question, "Do Mormons commune with Demons inside the Mormon Temple?"....

My answer to that question is that "It could be true"


Im actually not all that familiar with the day-to-day dealings of the demons, so it's not like I can say the answer is 100%"yes"

But from just what we know about the goings-on inside Mormon Temples and the about of credit and stuff given to Satan in the story that Mormonism teaches inside the temple, you got to come to the conclusion that there is a very good chance that Demons do commune with Mormon believers.

I would say that i would not be surprised to learn one day that Mormon Temples were actual centers for much of Satan's work in the world at this time.

[alanmolstad]

as for the topic's main question, "Do Mormons commune with Demons inside the Mormon Temple?"....

My answer to that question is that "It could be true"


Im actually not all that familiar with the day-to-day dealings of the demons, so it's not like I can say the answer is 100%"yes"

But from just what we know about the goings-on inside Mormon Temples and the about of credit and stuff given to Satan in the story that Mormonism teaches inside the temple, you got to come to the conclusion that there is a very good chance that Demons do commune with Mormon believers.

I would say that i would not be surprised to learn one day that Mormon Temples were actual centers for much of Satan's work in the world at this time.


the more I learn of their doings, the more I believe that they do actually deal with demons inside their buildings, for they sure do that inside their teachings....

[Phoenix]

the more I learn of their doings, the more I believe that they do actually deal with demons inside their buildings, for they sure do that inside their teachings....

Yes, LDS teachings deal with demons: How to detect them, how to confound them, and how to make them go away. Thank the Lord for LDS teachings.