Another example of mormon honesty

[James Banta]

Here in Utah we have been experiencing the Soap Opera of the sorted actions of our Attorney General John Swallow.. He was forced out of office due to his activities that have shamed his office and himself.. Swallow obliterated his electronic footprints and created new documents designed to mislead anyone who might delve into his activities, according to evidence pieced together by a five-month investigation by a special House committee. He had the hard drives on his state-issued computers wiped clean and appears to have purged thousands of emails, later lying to the public and investigators about their disappearance, Investigators have said. He (Swallow) bought a "burner" phone that couldn’t be traced and created a fake paper trail for consulting work he did on a Nevada cement project. His record of behavior, his shifting story and attempts to mislead investigators and the public, taken as a whole, cannot be innocently explained away (Robert Gehrke and Lee Davidson, The Salt Lake Tribune
Dec 19 2013 11:18 am). As I have been complaining about in the adulteries and lies of Joseph Smith, Swallow has refused to confess wrong doing, His lies, and evasions of the truth..

Ok Why tell you about politics in Utah? It is because Swallow held the office of LDS Bishop the whole time he was hiding his illegal activities and lying about them, trying to cover them up.. I paraphrase a verse of the Bible and I am called a liar for doing that.. I copy a paragraph from the History of the church (LDS church) and again I am branded as a liar by a hate driven LDS poster. When a Bishop in their church is seen as really being a liar all we hear is crickets.

Tell me how does a man of such shady personal character trick men who are in communion with the Holy Spirit into installing his as the sheppard of his Ward? Does the mormon Holy Spirit know the hearts of all men? Isn't he in communication with LDS GAs? In the case of Swallow they looked only at the nice white washed walls of the sepulcher‎ that is his life not seeing that it is filled with corruption and dead man's bones..

Swallow had the ability to make a confession to God and the state of Utah and by doing so be made clean, but hiding his sins was more what he was interested in doing.. This seems to be a common practice started by Smith as he denied living in polygamy.. IHS jim

[Snow Patrol]

Here in Utah we have been experiencing the Soap Opera of the sorted actions of our Attorney General John Swallow.. He was forced out of office due to his activities that have shamed his office and himself.. Swallow obliterated his electronic footprints and created new documents designed to mislead anyone who might delve into his activities, according to evidence pieced together by a five-month investigation by a special House committee. He had the hard drives on his state-issued computers wiped clean and appears to have purged thousands of emails, later lying to the public and investigators about their disappearance, Investigators have said. He (Swallow) bought a "burner" phone that couldn’t be traced and created a fake paper trail for consulting work he did on a Nevada cement project. His record of behavior, his shifting story and attempts to mislead investigators and the public, taken as a whole, cannot be innocently explained away (Robert Gehrke and Lee Davidson, The Salt Lake Tribune
Dec 19 2013 11:18 am). As I have been complaining about in the adulteries and lies of Joseph Smith, Swallow has refused to confess wrong doing, His lies, and evasions of the truth..

Ok Why tell you about politics in Utah? It is because Swallow held the office of LDS Bishop the whole time he was hiding his illegal activities and lying about them, trying to cover them up.. I paraphrase a verse of the Bible and I am called a liar for doing that.. I copy a paragraph from the History of the church (LDS church) and again I am branded as a liar by a hate driven LDS poster. When a Bishop in their church is seen as really being a liar all we hear is crickets.

Tell me how does a man of such shady personal character trick men who are in communion with the Holy Spirit into installing his as the sheppard of his Ward? Does the mormon Holy Spirit know the hearts of all men? Isn't he in communication with LDS GAs? In the case of Swallow they looked only at the nice white washed walls of the sepulcher‎ that is his life not seeing that it is filled with corruption and dead man's bones..

Swallow had the ability to make a confession to God and the state of Utah and by doing so be made clean, but hiding his sins was more what he was interested in doing.. This seems to be a common practice started by Smith as he denied living in polygamy.. IHS jim

More anti-LDS person attacks I see. So, do you scour the internet looking for corrupt Christian leaders or are you exclusive in attacking LDS people?

Out of 29,014 ward and branches you come up with 1 (ONE) bishop that was doing something terribly wrong and are able to extrapolate that out and say it is a systematic problem within the LDS Church? Maybe you should take a statistics self study cl***.

Are you going to apologize for the lies you have told when you say that you don't attack that LDS people but rather just the doctrines?

[Apologette]

Here in Utah we have been experiencing the Soap Opera of the sorted actions of our Attorney General John Swallow.. He was forced out of office due to his activities that have shamed his office and himself.. Swallow obliterated his electronic footprints and created new documents designed to mislead anyone who might delve into his activities, according to evidence pieced together by a five-month investigation by a special House committee. He had the hard drives on his state-issued computers wiped clean and appears to have purged thousands of emails, later lying to the public and investigators about their disappearance, Investigators have said. He (Swallow) bought a "burner" phone that couldn’t be traced and created a fake paper trail for consulting work he did on a Nevada cement project. His record of behavior, his shifting story and attempts to mislead investigators and the public, taken as a whole, cannot be innocently explained away (Robert Gehrke and Lee Davidson, The Salt Lake Tribune
Dec 19 2013 11:18 am). As I have been complaining about in the adulteries and lies of Joseph Smith, Swallow has refused to confess wrong doing, His lies, and evasions of the truth..

Ok Why tell you about politics in Utah? It is because Swallow held the office of LDS Bishop the whole time he was hiding his illegal activities and lying about them, trying to cover them up.. I paraphrase a verse of the Bible and I am called a liar for doing that.. I copy a paragraph from the History of the church (LDS church) and again I am branded as a liar by a hate driven LDS poster. When a Bishop in their church is seen as really being a liar all we hear is crickets.

Tell me how does a man of such shady personal character trick men who are in communion with the Holy Spirit into installing his as the sheppard of his Ward? Does the mormon Holy Spirit know the hearts of all men? Isn't he in communication with LDS GAs? In the case of Swallow they looked only at the nice white washed walls of the sepulcher‎ that is his life not seeing that it is filled with corruption and dead man's bones..

Swallow had the ability to make a confession to God and the state of Utah and by doing so be made clean, but hiding his sins was more what he was interested in doing.. This seems to be a common practice started by Smith as he denied living in polygamy.. IHS jim

Those lost in Mormonism are unregenerate and that is why Utah has such a bad reputation for being a scam artists' paradise.

[James Banta]

More anti-LDS person attacks I see. So, do you scour the internet looking for corrupt Christian leaders or are you exclusive in attacking LDS people?

Out of 29,014 ward and branches you come up with 1 (ONE) bishop that was doing something terribly wrong and are able to extrapolate that out and say it is a systematic problem within the LDS Church? Maybe you should take a statistics self study cl***.

Are you going to apologize for the lies you have told when you say that you don't attack that LDS people but rather just the doctrines?

This story to me and I would say to any Christian doesn't have anything to do with Swallow and his sin.. Mormonism can use their church discipline to do with him as they will.. What I am pointing out is the worst part of this story is that the GAs set this man up in leadership.. Were they inspired by God to give him high position in the LDS church or were they fooled by a wealthy, well thought of man and because of his white washed walls that hide the rottenness of what he really was? As Christian we make no claim of having that level of revelation.. Mormonism does.. That self appointed power is what my post is about sorry you missed it..

Swallow did cheat and steal, that is fact. To me it doesn't matter.. I point it out only to show that it is what looks good to men that mormonism is looking for in their leaders.. There is no revelation from the Holy Spirit is making the choices in their prospective leaders.. That is a doctrinal criticize not an attack on Swallow.. He destroyed himself. He didn't need help from me..

I didn't have to work too hard.. This story has been all over the Salt Lake Media for weeks.. The position of the State's Attorney General is a major office in the state.. News of his misdeeds were on the front page of the Salt Lake Tribune as well as being reported by all the Salt Lake television new outlets.. IHS jim

[John T]

This story to me and I would say to ant Christian doesn't have anything to do with Swallow and his sin.. Mormonism can use their church discipline to do with him as they will.. What I am pointing out is the worst part of this story is that the GAs set this man up in leadership.. Were they inspired by God to give him high position in the LDS church or were they fooled by a wealthy, well thought of man and because of his white washed walls that hide the rottenness of what he really was? As Christian we make no claim of having that level of revelation.. Mormonism does.. That self appointed power is what my post is about sorry you missed it..

Swallow did cheat and steal, that is fact. To me it doesn't matter.. I point it out only to show that it is what looks good to men that mormonism is looking for in their leaders.. There is no revelation from the Holy Spirit is making the choices in their prospective leaders.. That is a doctrinal criticize not an attack on Swallow.. He destroyed himself. He didn't need help from me..

I didn't have to work too hard.. This story has been all over the Salt Lake Media for weeks.. The position of the State's Attorney General is a major office in the state.. News of his misdeeds were on the front page of the Salt Lake Tribune as well as being reported by all the Salt Lake television new outlets.. IHS jim

Cutting and pasting my post on CARM seems apropos:


Has anyone else noticed that whenever a topic that the LDS do not like, such as this one, or something that exposes the true nature of their religion like hens clucking aimlessly in the hen house they spam the thread with vacuous prattle pettifogging by bickering or quibbling over trifles or unimportant matters in order to derail something unpleasant?

There is no such thing as directly answering the topic and they are forever calling some insipid rite such as touching hands, and saying magic words--which they concocted, and stole from the Masons as "holy".

In my heart of hearts, I believe that the reason why that they are so adamant about this blatant attempt of derailing "unpleasant threads" is that once they are exposed as being utterly preposterous, and foreign to a just, righteous and holy God, (as revealed in the Bible alone) that the sycophants of Joseph will leave the cult in droves.

I hope that more things like this are exposed.

.
So far, the LDS responses here have not been contradictory to that observation

[Apologette]

What can they say - you observations are true.

[John T]

Here in Utah we have been experiencing the Soap Opera of the sorted actions of our Attorney General John Swallow.. He was forced out of office due to his activities that have shamed his office and himself.. Swallow obliterated his electronic footprints and created new documents designed to mislead anyone who might delve into his activities, according to evidence pieced together by a five-month investigation by a special House committee. He had the hard drives on his state-issued computers wiped clean and appears to have purged thousands of emails, later lying to the public and investigators about their disappearance, Investigators have said. He (Swallow) bought a "burner" phone that couldn’t be traced and created a fake paper trail for consulting work he did on a Nevada cement project. His record of behavior, his shifting story and attempts to mislead investigators and the public, taken as a whole, cannot be innocently explained away (Robert Gehrke and Lee Davidson, The Salt Lake Tribune Dec 19 2013 11:18 am). As I have been complaining about in the adulteries and lies of Joseph Smith, Swallow has refused to confess wrong doing, His lies, and evasions of the truth..

Ok Why tell you about politics in Utah? It is because Swallow held the office of LDS Bishop the whole time he was hiding his illegal activities and lying about them, trying to cover them up.. I paraphrase a verse of the Bible and I am called a liar for doing that.. I copy a paragraph from the History of the church (LDS church) and again I am branded as a liar by a hate driven LDS poster. When a Bishop in their church is seen as really being a liar all we hear is crickets.


What should be interesting is if the SLC Trib uses the term, "former LDS Bishop" to describe Swallow.

Many newspapers do not hesitate to identify someone as "former pastor" or something like that to describe Christians, so why not use that ***le to describe him?

Deseret News buried it in the third-from-last paragraph:


Reich said Swallow asked attorney general's office IT staffer Chris Earl to wipe them in July 2012 because he was no longer serving as an LDS Church bishop and wanted to remove confidential information he received from ward members. In a declaration to the committee, Earl said Swallow appeared "nervous and anxious."


The Daily Herald says nothing about being a bishop

KSL.com says nothing about being a bishop

The Trib says nothing about being a bishop

And Bob Bernick of Utahpolicy.com buries it towards the end. Nevertheless, his scathing words bear repeating:
Kind of like former President Richard Nixon deleting 18-minutes from a Watergate tape made in the Oval Office.

You also can’t seem to get away from the mix of church and state in Utah – Swallow told AG IT employees that he needed to “wipe” his office computers because it contained some local LDS Church stuff related to his ward ***ignment as bishop, and he needed to get that off.

But wipe all the drives, instead of just wiping the LDS Church portion? Asked Reich. That makes no sense.

Finally, Reich comments – and some of the committee questions asked of him – clearly led to making the case that the House’s investigation was stalled, elongated and made more costly by Swallow’s actions.

In short, don’t blame Utah House members for spending at least $2.3 million of taxpayers’ money on the Swallow investigation – now ending because of Swallow’s resignation.

It would have cost a lot less if only Swallow had been truthful from the outset and not lied and stymied committee investigators, Reich said.

“That really offends me,” said Rep. Lee Perry, R-Perry, that Swallow caused so much cost to taxpayers through his lies.

After Friday’s wrap-up, the committee will issue a written report, probably in several weeks.

The Swallow fallout may lead to some campaign finance reforms in the 2014 Legislature.

Maybe lawmakers will try to shine more light on “dark money” operations – which usually result in anonymous, negative attacks on political candidates.

But for now, Swallow’s legacy will be one of lying, covering up, and using about every excuse in the book – including his position as a LDS bishop – in trying to avoid taking responsibility for his own actions....
.
So there you have facts instead of pettifogging and feigned indignation.

[RealFakeHair]

More anti-LDS person attacks I see. So, do you scour the internet looking for corrupt Christian leaders or are you exclusive in attacking LDS people?

Out of 29,014 ward and branches you come up with 1 (ONE) bishop that was doing something terribly wrong and are able to extrapolate that out and say it is a systematic problem within the LDS Church? Maybe you should take a statistics self study cl***.

Are you going to apologize for the lies you have told when you say that you don't attack that LDS people but rather just the doctrines?

You can-not deny UTAH is the scam capital of U.S.A.

[Apologette]

You can-not deny UTAH is the scam capital of U.S.A.

I think it's because so many Mormons are conditioned to believe fairy tales!

[RealFakeHair]

I think it's because so many Mormons are conditioned to believe fairy tales!

Or, maybe it is because when you believe you are a god in waiting you can do anything right or wrong.

[Apologette]

Or, maybe it is because when you believe you are a god in waiting you can do anything right or wrong.

Yes, I'd say that the cult is a hot bed for arrogance - and arrogance breeds deceit.

[James Banta]

You can-not deny UTAH is the scam capital of U.S.A.

Way too many confidence man use their membership in the LDS church as a way to get into the pockets of others.. That is sad but true.. On the other hand the same this can be seen in Christian churches. I agree with the mormons that members everywhere can we frauds.. BUT this isn't about members it is about Christian leadership.. When one of ours falls they either resign, and repent. Or the church they lead dies.. In mormonism this doesn't happen. Seldom do I hear of repentance by LDS authorities. Never do I hear that their "presbytery" made a error in selecting them for high positions. Yes they are released but nothing I have ever heard is said about repentance.. In Swallows case he actually says that he has don't nothing wrong.. The LDS GAs will also never admit that they were wrong in installing them in the office of Bishop..

The GAs were fooled , They didn't listen to God's voice through the Holy Spirit. They Holy the Holy Spirit to be a third God in position and rank. The Bible is clear, there is ONE GOD.. The mormon leadership had only their false gods to guide them of course they make bad decisions.. IHS jim

[Erundur]

The LDS GAs will also never admit that they were wrong in installing them in the office of Bishop.. IHS jim
You're ***uming that they were wrong in installing them in the office of bishop...

[James Banta]

[John T;151204]What should be interesting is if the SLC Trib uses the term, "former LDS Bishop" to describe Swallow.
Many newspapers do not hesitate to identify someone as "former pastor" or something like that to describe Christians, so why not use that ***le to describe him?

I was in mormonism for many years. I saw Bishops come and Bishops go.. One thing is when they have been released they maintain the ***le of BISHOP.. They are Bishop for life.. That is where the Trib was wrong he is a Bishop not a former Bishop.. The only way this ***le came be removed is by excommunication..


Deseret News buried it in the third-from-last paragraph:


Reich said Swallow asked attorney general's office IT staffer Chris Earl to wipe them in July 2012 because he was no longer serving as an LDS Church bishop and wanted to remove confidential information he received from ward members. In a declaration to the committee, Earl said Swallow appeared "nervous and anxious."


Yes in the middle of the investigation Swallow used his church position to to hide evidence in His computer of his criminal activities.. But the GAs that appointed him to be a Bishop didn't have any idea through the Holy Spirit that he was a criminal? As I have said many times the LDS church has a pipsqueak for a God.. Understand I am not saying that all Christian are in tune with the Holy Spirit all the time but should someone who say they are acting in God's name be closer to those that are just the bride of Jesus.. After all we both know how often our wives are in tune with us.. Never once do they have different ideas from ours do they hahaha... Still working as a church we more often than not find the right teachers for the church..


And Bob Bernick of Utahpolicy.com buries it towards the end. Nevertheless, his scathing words bear repeating:[INDENT]Kind of like former President Richard Nixon deleting 18-minutes from a Watergate tape made in the Oval Office.

You also can’t seem to get away from the mix of church and state in Utah – Swallow told AG IT employees that he needed to “wipe” his office computers because it contained some local LDS Church stuff related to his ward ***ignment as bishop, and he needed to get that off.

But wipe all the drives, instead of just wiping the LDS Church portion? Asked Reich. That makes no sense.

That is a good point.. And why were his private church records on his office laptop.. Couldn't he afford a computer for his church and personal activities? Recently my wife's PC's internal power supply went out in her Dell.. She really like that PC (I should say loves it).. I found a refurbished PC online, the same model and bought it for her for less that $125. So why can't a man, a lawyer, Utah's top cop afford a PC for personal use? No it was not scrubbed to protect his parishioners but it was scrubbed to protect Swallow.. This was a misuse of State own equipment in the first place.. While I worked for the state of Utah to use State own equipment for personal use would have been enough to get me fired.. He admitted to one crime to defend himself from another?


In short, don’t blame Utah House members for spending at least $2.3 million of taxpayers’ money on the Swallow investigation – now ending because of Swallow’s resignation.

When someone breaks the law the State/County investigates, charges, and prosecutes the crime.. There are times when it gets expensive.. If we are going to be fair and just in enforcing our laws we have to pay the bills.. Are they done with Swallow.. I don't think so.. The investigation may be done now comes the decisions on where we go next as a government.


It would have cost a lot less if only Swallow had been truthful from the outset and not lied and stymied committee investigators, Reich said.
“That really offends me,” said Rep. Lee Perry, R-Perry, that Swallow caused so much cost to taxpayers through his lies.


That makes his crimes even worse.. Not only was he into graft, but in trying to hide his crimes hurt all the citizens of the State.. And this just started when he took the office of State AG? No He was a crook for a long time before that.. He was a crook even before he was appointed a Bishop.. Did the LDS church know about his character? NO! And why wouldn't they see that flaw? Because the power of God is not in them.. God didn't ***ociate with the appointment of such a criminal as His judge and teacher of His church? NO WAY..


The Swallow fallout may lead to some campaign finance reforms in the 2014 Legislature.
Maybe lawmakers will try to shine more light on “dark money” operations – which usually result in anonymous, negative attacks on political candidates.

We can only hope.. But that in no way excuses Swallow or allows for such people to a church office especially when the church claims that such an appointment comes by direct revelation from God.. I don't really care that much about Swallows crimes against the state.. I care more about the LDS church ***ertions that they are the only people to whom God speaks.. The only One that has the right to the Holy Spirit.. In their doctrine of who God is that have no right to the Holy Spirit at all.. That is the point of this thread.. IHS jim

[Snow Patrol]

This story to me and I would say to any Christian doesn't have anything to do with Swallow and his sin.. Mormonism can use their church discipline to do with him as they will.. What I am pointing out is the worst part of this story is that the GAs set this man up in leadership.. Were they inspired by God to give him high position in the LDS church or were they fooled by a wealthy, well thought of man and because of his white washed walls that hide the rottenness of what he really was? As Christian we make no claim of having that level of revelation.. Mormonism does.. That self appointed power is what my post is about sorry you missed it..


Bologna. You were caught making anti-Mormon comments and now you try to change the subject. Here, let me show you....

The ***le "Another example of mormon honesty"

"As I have been complaining about in the adulteries and lies of Joseph Smith, Swallow has refused to confess wrong doing, His lies, and evasions of the truth.."

"Ok Why tell you about politics in Utah? It is because Swallow held the office of LDS Bishop the whole time he was hiding his illegal activities and lying about them, trying to cover them up.. I paraphrase a verse of the Bible and I am called a liar for doing that.. I copy a paragraph from the History of the church (LDS church) and again I am branded as a liar by a hate driven LDS poster. When a Bishop in their church is seen as really being a liar all we hear is crickets."

"Swallow had the ability to make a confession to God and the state of Utah and by doing so be made clean, but hiding his sins was more what he was interested in doing.. This seems to be a common practice started by Smith as he denied living in polygamy"

Sorry James, you can't weasel out of your own words.

[RealFakeHair]

Bologna. You were caught making anti-Mormon comments and now you try to change the subject. Here, let me show you....

The ***le "Another example of mormon honesty"

"As I have been complaining about in the adulteries and lies of Joseph Smith, Swallow has refused to confess wrong doing, His lies, and evasions of the truth.."

"Ok Why tell you about politics in Utah? It is because Swallow held the office of LDS Bishop the whole time he was hiding his illegal activities and lying about them, trying to cover them up.. I paraphrase a verse of the Bible and I am called a liar for doing that.. I copy a paragraph from the History of the church (LDS church) and again I am branded as a liar by a hate driven LDS poster. When a Bishop in their church is seen as really being a liar all we hear is crickets."

"Swallow had the ability to make a confession to God and the state of Utah and by doing so be made clean, but hiding his sins was more what he was interested in doing.. This seems to be a common practice started by Smith as he denied living in polygamy"

Sorry James, you can't weasel out of your own words.

Well, did Joseph Smith jr. lie about his living in polygamy or not?
All this between Swallow and the State of Utah is just another story of a Bishop waiting on his godhood to me.

[James Banta]

Well, did Joseph Smith jr. lie about his living in polygamy or not?
All this between Swallow and the State of Utah is just another story of a Bishop waiting on his godhood to me.

Must we show the LDS the rules here? If we can show that them that the people we are speaking were really liars, and that is easy with both Smith and Swallow, it is not wrong for us to call them what they are, liars.. That doesn't mean that everyone inside mormonism is.. Because they don't understand I will explain it just for Snow..

There are some men that run a religion they call the Only True Church. These men claim that they have a special relationship with God that only a few other men now living have.. Because of the authority they claim to have and this relationship with God they make decisions for this religion that are never questioned. One of their decisions was to appoint a liar and a theft by the name of Swallow to pastor a division of that religion. And by appointing a man that is as dishonest as Swallow they have proven that they no longer follow the Bible in the appointing such men.

Swallow was completely dishonest, but doesn't the Bible say that a bishop must be blameless, sober, and of good behavior. I guess the Holy Spirit doesn't really choose their leaders. It is clear that Swallow didn't meet the *** qualifications.. His sin not respecting, the revelations to make him a bishop were false.. That means that all the men who were called to make that decision were false prophets and all the men who made the decision to appointing them were also false prophets and so forth back to the man they call a prophet, seer, and revelator.. This points to one unquestionable fact.. Mormonism is operated from what looks best to men, not that which God has commanded..

This attacks the whole trustfulness of it has nothing to do with Swallow other than he made the facts clear that there is no revelation in the direction of the LDS church.. IHS jim

[John T]

Must we show the LDS the rules here? If we can show that them that the people we are speaking were really liars, and that is easy with both Smith and Swallow, it is not wrong for us to call them what they are, liars.. That doesn't mean that everyone inside mormonism is.. Because they don't understand I will explain it just for Snow..

There are some men that run a religion they call the Only True Church. These men claim that they have a special relationship with God that only a few other men now living have.. Because of the authority they claim to have and this relationship with God they make decisions for this religion that are never questioned. One of their decisions was to appoint a liar and a theft by the name of Swallow to pastor a division of that religion. And by appointing a man that is as dishonest as Swallow they have proven that they no longer follow the Bible in the appointing such men.

Swallow was completely dishonest, but doesn't the Bible say that a bishop must be blameless, sober, and of good behavior. I guess the Holy Spirit doesn't really choose their leaders. It is clear that Swallow didn't meet the *** qualifications.. His sin not respecting, the revelations to make him a bishop were false.. That means that all the men who were called to make that decision were false prophets and all the men who made the decision to appointing them were also false prophets and so forth back to the man they call a prophet, seer, and revelator.. This points to one unquestionable fact.. Mormonism is operated from what looks best to men, not that which God has commanded..

This attacks the whole trustfulness of it has nothing to do with Swallow other than he made the facts clear that there is no revelation in the direction of the LDS church.. IHS jim

Good points, James.

I was attempting to demonstrate the collusion of the LDS-dominated media in Utah in hiding the fact that Swallow retains the ***le bishop, although not presently in that official position. You know, once a bishop always a bishop.

[Apologette]

Bologna. You were caught making anti-Mormon comments and now you try to change the subject. Here, let me show you....

The ***le "Another example of mormon honesty"

"As I have been complaining about in the adulteries and lies of Joseph Smith, Swallow has refused to confess wrong doing, His lies, and evasions of the truth.."

"Ok Why tell you about politics in Utah? It is because Swallow held the office of LDS Bishop the whole time he was hiding his illegal activities and lying about them, trying to cover them up.. I paraphrase a verse of the Bible and I am called a liar for doing that.. I copy a paragraph from the History of the church (LDS church) and again I am branded as a liar by a hate driven LDS poster. When a Bishop in their church is seen as really being a liar all we hear is crickets."

"Swallow had the ability to make a confession to God and the state of Utah and by doing so be made clean, but hiding his sins was more what he was interested in doing.. This seems to be a common practice started by Smith as he denied living in polygamy"

Sorry James, you can't weasel out of your own words.

Those aren't anti Mormon statements, they are observations about Mormon dishonesty. Live with it. Utah is the scam capital of America, and it didn't get that ***le for "honesty."

[Snow Patrol]

Those aren't anti Mormon statements, they are observations about Mormon dishonesty. Live with it. Utah is the scam capital of America, and it didn't get that ***le for "honesty."

We hear all the time about how you guys are not against the LDS members but James has made it a point to single out individual LDS members in his posts. Singling out individuals is definitely anti-Mormon.

[RealFakeHair]

We hear all the time about how you guys are not against the LDS members but James has made it a point to single out individual LDS members in his posts. Singling out individuals is definitely anti-Mormon.

It aint about one individual in mormonlandism, all though it was one individual who dreamed up the conterfeit religion of LDSinc. This is why I put my focus on Joseph Smith jr. He is the one responsible for the many lost souls surrounding the gates of Hell begging Father Abraham to let them out so they can warn you and other TBMs before it is to late.

[James Banta]

Remember Earl Erskine from the X-mormon files on TV 20 here in Salt Lake? He no longer believes in the LDS church but retains the ***le "BISHOP".. Why? You got me.. I want No ties to that church/business at all.. IHS jim

[Ma'am]

More anti-LDS person attacks I see. So, do you scour the internet looking for corrupt Christian leaders or are you exclusive in attacking LDS people?

Out of 29,014 ward and branches you come up with 1 (ONE) bishop that was doing something terribly wrong and are able to extrapolate that out and say it is a systematic problem within the LDS Church? Maybe you should take a statistics self study cl***.

Are you going to apologize for the lies you have told when you say that you don't attack that LDS people but rather just the doctrines?

He just asked a simple question. How can a person like this politician be a bishop in your church, while being such a liar in his public office?

[Ma'am]

It aint about one individual in mormonlandism, all though it was one individual who dreamed up the conterfeit religion of LDSinc. This is why I put my focus on Joseph Smith jr. He is the one responsible for the many lost souls surrounding the gates of Hell begging Father Abraham to let them out so they can warn you and other TBMs before it is to late.

You have a point. It all started with Joseph Smith, Jr. He has a lot to answer for, not the least of which is leading so many people down the broad path to hell.

[dberrie2000]

He just asked a simple question. How can a person like this politician be a bishop in your church, while being such a liar in his public office?

If you are going down that road--could I ask you how Judas could have been an apostle?

[Pa Pa]

Here in Utah we have been experiencing the Soap Opera of the sorted actions of our Attorney General John Swallow.. He was forced out of office due to his activities that have shamed his office and himself.. Swallow obliterated his electronic footprints and created new documents designed to mislead anyone who might delve into his activities, according to evidence pieced together by a five-month investigation by a special House committee. He had the hard drives on his state-issued computers wiped clean and appears to have purged thousands of emails, later lying to the public and investigators about their disappearance, Investigators have said. He (Swallow) bought a "burner" phone that couldn’t be traced and created a fake paper trail for consulting work he did on a Nevada cement project. His record of behavior, his shifting story and attempts to mislead investigators and the public, taken as a whole, cannot be innocently explained away (Robert Gehrke and Lee Davidson, The Salt Lake Tribune
Dec 19 2013 11:18 am). As I have been complaining about in the adulteries and lies of Joseph Smith, Swallow has refused to confess wrong doing, His lies, and evasions of the truth..

Ok Why tell you about politics in Utah? It is because Swallow held the office of LDS Bishop the whole time he was hiding his illegal activities and lying about them, trying to cover them up.. I paraphrase a verse of the Bible and I am called a liar for doing that.. I copy a paragraph from the History of the church (LDS church) and again I am branded as a liar by a hate driven LDS poster. When a Bishop in their church is seen as really being a liar all we hear is crickets.

Tell me how does a man of such shady personal character trick men who are in communion with the Holy Spirit into installing his as the sheppard of his Ward? Does the mormon Holy Spirit know the hearts of all men? Isn't he in communication with LDS GAs? In the case of Swallow they looked only at the nice white washed walls of the sepulcher‎ that is his life not seeing that it is filled with corruption and dead man's bones..

Swallow had the ability to make a confession to God and the state of Utah and by doing so be made clean, but hiding his sins was more what he was interested in doing.. This seems to be a common practice started by Smith as he denied living in polygamy.. IHS jim
I stopped halfway though the drivel...how does the affect the Church and Mormonism as a whole?

[Ma'am]

If you are going down that road--could I ask you how Judas could have been an apostle?

I don't know. But please don't deflect from my question. If the LDS knew of this politician's dishonesty, shouldn't there have been repercussions with him as a bishop, a man in a position of importance in your church, who is supposed to set a good example?

[dberrie2000]

I don't know. But please don't deflect from my question. If the LDS knew of this politician's dishonesty, shouldn't there have been repercussions with him as a bishop, a man in a position of importance in your church, who is supposed to set a good example?

What is your evidence there are no repercussions to any Bishop who is convicted of fraud? I sat on the judicial board in the LDS church--and I can ***ure you any Bishop who was found to be in fraud was prosecuted through a court hearing within the LDS church. We did not hesitate to excommunicate, if the circumstances warranted.

Again--what evidence do you have there were no actions taken?

[John T]

If you are going down that road--could I ask you how Judas could have been an apostle?

I do not know if that sort of a remark was said to "score one for Joe" but I do know that it demonstrates that there is a woeful absence of Biblical knowledge spewing forth from it.

Judas was a treasurer, and a disciple NOT an Apostle.
Stick to facts, not fiction. By doing that, then you may also step away fro Mormonism, and into the loving arms of Jesus, being free from the tentacles of Joseph.

Now that is settled, BACK TO THE SUBJECT AT HAND, PLEASE

[dberrie2000]

Judas was a treasurer, and a disciple NOT an Apostle. Stick to facts, not fiction. By doing that, then you may also step away fro Mormonism, and into the loving arms of Jesus, being free from the tentacles of Joseph. Now that is settled, BACK TO THE SUBJECT AT HAND, PLEASE


Matthew 10:2-4---King James Version (KJV)


2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;

3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;

4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

[Pa Pa]

Those lost in Mormonism are unregenerate and that is why Utah has such a bad reputation for being a scam artists' paradise.Actually dishonest people in the Church get a hold of Ward list, and feed on the trust of others.

[James Banta]

Actually dishonest people in the Church get a hold of Ward list, and feed on the trust of others.

Would you call such as those true LDS? I won't hold you to be responsible for them if you will do the same thing for those who claim to be members of the Christian Church but are Christians only if it can help them make money.. The only thing I will question is men appointed by "prophets" to high position and then end up committing crimes against all the people like Utah's former AG Mr. Swallow.. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

Would you call such as those true LDS? I won't hold you to be responsible for them if you will do the same thing for those who claim to be members of the Christian Church but are Christians only if it can help them make money.. The only thing I will question is men appointed by "prophets" to high position and then end up committing crimes against all the people like Utah's former AG Mr. Swallow.. IHS jim
But you ***led your thread "An example of Mormon honesty." So aren't you making all LDS responsible, accountable, answerable, for the actions of one of our members? Swallow wasn't appointed a prophet.

[Pa Pa]

Would you call such as those true LDS? I won't hold you to be responsible for them if you will do the same thing for those who claim to be members of the Christian Church but are Christians only if it can help them make money.. The only thing I will question is men appointed by "prophets" to high position and then end up committing crimes against all the people like Utah's former AG Mr. Swallow.. IHS jimThe dishonest are just that and are not living there faith.

[James Banta]

But you ***led your thread "An example of Mormon honesty." So aren't you making all LDS responsible, accountable, answerable, for the actions of one of our members? Swallow wasn't appointed a prophet.


Yes I did do that because the LDS are quick to point out all the good that is done by members of their church.. If they are responsible for that good then they are responsible for his evil..

I never said that Swallow was a prophet. I said that he was appointed to high position in the church by prophets.. Isn't being the Bishop of a ward the pastor of as many as 500 members, a high position? Should a prophet be discerning enough to see the character of a man they call to be a Bishop? if not one shouldn't the many involved in making that call as a quorum have that discernment? No? I would also say no, since the Holy Spirit is not in any of them.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

The dishonest are just that and are not living there faith.

The point here paPa isn't Swallow's dishonesty, that is a given.. It is the level of his dishonesty not being discerned by the "prophets" that called him to his bishopric. there are dishonest people everywhere, I believe none are Christian pastors.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

I stopped halfway though the drivel...how does the affect the Church and Mormonism as a whole?


Read the whole post if you want to make a comment that has any authority to be a reasonable response.. IHS jim

[dberrie2000]

The point here paPa isn't Swallow's dishonesty, that is a given.. It is the level of his dishonesty not being discerned by the "prophets" that called him to his bishopric. there are dishonest people everywhere, I believe none are Christian pastors.. IHS jim

I believe that is a gullible position. There are pastors that are convicted of crimes commonly. One of the Baptist preachers here, that pastors the largest church around--was just send to prison for fraud. The strange thing about that is he convicted several years ago of the same thing, in the same church--and went to prison for a couple of years--they let him out--and the Baptist church rehired him--only to convict him of fraud again.

[nrajeffreturns]

Yes I did do that because the LDS are quick to point out all the good that is done by members of their church.
We are? Didn't we only do that after you DEMANDED that we prove we were doing stuff for the needy? Oh, I get it: You're using the old anti trick of:

1. Accuse them of not being generous.
2. Demand they provide proof of their generosity.
3. After they provide the proof, accuse them of being quick to boast about how generous they are.

That's a pretty slick trick, ****.


If they are responsible fir that good then they are responsible for his evil..
Say WHAT? So if you have good people among you who do good things, then those good people are responsible for the bad things that the bad people among you do? Where are you getting that false doctrine from?

Using that reasoning, Peter, James, John, and Jesus Himself are responsible for the bad things that JUDAS did????

REALLY????


Isn't being the Bishop of a ward the pastor of many times over 500 members, a high position?No. The position of pastor might be a high position in YOUR church, since your church did away with anything higher than pastor. But in the original church as Jesus set it up, there were overseers above the bishops, who gave them training and who corrected them if they started teaching false doctrines.

[nrajeffreturns]

One of the Baptist preachers here, that pastors the largest church around--was just send to prison for fraud. The strange thing about that is he convicted several years ago of the same thing, in the same church--and went to prison for a couple of years--they let him out--and the Baptist church rehired him--only to convict him of fraud again.

Well, they deserve credit for being consistent, at least! :)

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by John T View Post---Judas was a treasurer, and a disciple NOT an Apostle. Stick to facts, not fiction. By doing that, then you may also step away fro Mormonism, and into the loving arms of Jesus, being free from the tentacles of Joseph. Now that is settled, BACK TO THE SUBJECT AT HAND, PLEASE


Matthew 10:2-4---King James Version (KJV)


2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;

3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;

4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

Bump for John T

[James Banta]

Well, they deserve credit for being consistent, at least! :)

There are far too many social clubs pretending to be churches.. Looks like you have one of them in your area.. Please try to remember that even a solid Christian church of any denomination makes no claim to be the Lord's one true church as Mormonism does. IHS jim

[James Banta]

[nrajeffreturns;151750]We are? Didn't we only do that after you DEMANDED that we prove we were doing stuff for the needy? Oh, I get it: You're using the old anti trick of:

1. Accuse them of not being generous.
2. Demand they provide proof of their generosity.
3. After they provide the proof, accuse them of being quick to boast about how generous they are.

That's a pretty slick trick, ****.

Never once have I asked the television station here in the Utah area to carry stories of all the wonderful works the LDS are doing.. And yet those stories make it to the news.. The LDS church is the only church in Utah that has an office of public relations that puts out news releases about all the good works of the church.. I suppose that I was responsible for the creation of that office as well? I agree with you that I am really really good to be what you and the Salt Lake LDS church sees as an apostate and yet I still have such influence..


Say WHAT? So if you have good people among you who do good things, then those good people are responsible for the bad things that the bad people among you do? Where are you getting that false doctrine from?

If I believe that God is leading the decisions of my church as to who will be it's pastor and we are all in agreement of who that should be and he turns out to be a criminal, then YES we are are all responsible for that poor decision. We are all responsible for the damage that causes the church..


Using that reasoning, Peter, James, John, and Jesus Himself are responsible for the bad things that JUDAS did????

Did any of the Apostles vote on including Judas as one of them? No? Oh so they are not responsible are they? Was Jesus responsible for the damage that Judas caused, Yes, it was His perfect will.. He knew what was going to happen and used it to fulfill prophecy and complete His work.. Jesus is responsible for the work He did on the cross.. Remember He said that no one takes his life but He lays it down (John 10:17-18).. You just can't help but to kick against the *****s instead of just believing the word of God..


No. The position of pastor might be a high position in YOUR church, since your church did away with anything higher than pastor. But in the original church as Jesus set it up, there were overseers above the bishops, who gave them training and who corrected them if they started teaching false doctrines.

I am a congregationalist. Do you know what that means.. Let me help you.. The Body of Christ, His Church has total control over the actions of the Church.. The Pastor is called by them and oversees his actions.. The church then becomes his presbytery. In a Presbyterian church the presbytery is an outside ***embly of elders that control these things.. What is right your presbytery style of Church government or the congregational form?

Acts 12:1-4
Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.
So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.

This was all done in one Church not a call of the Apostles or the church in Jerusalem. This is the pattern of congregational Church government I believe to be correct.. No outside authority other than God (the Holy Spirit) directing them..

So we did away with higher authorities that we see in the First century Church? No we have not.. We have 12 Apostles of Jesus that are the foundation of the Church. We have One Lord Jesus who is the chief cornerstone.. Just because all the Apostles have gone to be with the Lord doesn't mean that they no longer are His Apostles.. Remember Jesus said that the Father is the God Abraham Issac, and Jacob, that He is not the God of the dead but of the living (Mark 12:26-27).. Other than the position of Apostle the highest position in the Church is Elder, or Bishop. Then next is Deacon.. There are spiritual gifts that work in the Church but they are not Church offices.. If you see some other presbytery please point it out.. Even in a Presbyterian church the presbytery is made up of elders from other churches. There are no other Apostles save those Jesus and the Holy Spirit placed in that position.. In giving us the qualifications for a person to become one of the 12 Apostles, it is clear that today there is no one that meets the qualifications. The example of the church at Antioch, working independent of any presbytery proves your demands for an authority above the local church to be at best unnecessary and at worst flat unbiblical.. IHS jim

[dberrie2000]

There are far too many social clubs pretending to be churches.. Looks like you have one of them in your area.. Please try to remember that even a solid Christian church of any denomination makes no claim to be the Lord's one true church as Mormonism does. IHS jim

Are you attempting to make the conclusion that anyone could have rejected the Christ's church--with the Apostles as it's foundation--and started their own church--and still have been saved?


John 13:20---King James Version (KJV)

20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

[RealFakeHair]

Are you attempting to make the conclusion that anyone could have rejected the Christ's church--with the Apostles as it's foundation--and started their own church--and still have been saved?


John 13:20---King James Version (KJV)

20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

your bible ping-pong has lost its paddle.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Are you attempting to make the conclusion that anyone could have rejected the Christ's church--with the Apostles as it's foundation--and started their own church--and still have been saved?

John 13:20---King James Version (KJV)

20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.


your bible ping-pong has lost its paddle.

What is it about John13:20 you believe is "bible ping pong"?

[RealFakeHair]

What is it about John13:20 you believe is "bible ping pong"?

Your jesus of mormonism has no effect on christians, get over it.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Are you attempting to make the conclusion that anyone could have rejected the Christ's church--with the Apostles as it's foundation--and started their own church--and still have been saved?

John 13:20---King James Version (KJV)

20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Quote Originally Posted by RealFakeHair View Postyour bible ping-pong has lost its paddle.

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostWhat is it about John13:20 you believe is "bible ping pong"?

Your jesus of mormonism has no effect on christians, get over it.

Christians accept the testimony of the Biblical scriptures. Why don't you?

[RealFakeHair]

Christians accept the testimony of the Biblical scriptures. Why don't you?

What! What the heck, here you are telling me I sould accept your opinion of a book you don't even trust as being translated correctly. You have got to be kidding me.
Why don't you use a book you can trust and not the Holy Bible?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Christians accept the testimony of the Biblical scriptures. Why don't you?

What! What the heck, here you are telling me I sould accept your opinion of a book you don't even trust as being translated correctly. You have got to be kidding me.
Why don't you use a book you can trust and not the Holy Bible?

Why are you using what you believe my take is--as a standard for believing or not believing the scriptures? You should believe the scriptures regardless of what I believe.


2 Timothy 3:15-17---King James Version (KJV)


15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Hair--where is your Bible?

[James Banta]

Why are you using what you believe my take is--as a standard for believing or not believing the scriptures? You should believe the scriptures regardless of what I believe.


2 Timothy 3:15-17---King James Version (KJV)


15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Hair--where is your Bible?

RFH is making a point that you deny the correctness of the Bible.. Your doctrine as explained in the AofF tell us that you see the Bible as true only as far as it is translated correctly. You offer no correct translation, the "Inspired Version" is always held as incomplete. The LDS cling to the KJV as their official translation. Only when LDS doctrine and the Bible come into conflict is the translation questioned. It is to bad that that often happens.. Do you really believe that the Bible is able to make a man wise unto salvation or is a temple that the Bible never teaches needed to gain full salvation.. Come on be honest LDS teachings place doubt even the p***age you quoted.. Then there is your Apostle of the 19th century that said it is doubtful that even one verse holds the same meaning as it did as it was first recorded (Divine Authority of the Book of Mormon, pp. 45).. You prophet of just a few years ago denied faith in the Jesus taught in that very Bible ((Deseret News, Church News section, Salt Lake City, Utah, week ending June 20, 1998, p. 7). All along even from that day the Church contended that the Bible is pure having the same message as it did the day it was recorded.. Where is your faith in the word of God and in the God revealed in that word.. IHS jim

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Why are you using what you believe my take is--as a standard for believing or not believing the scriptures? You should believe the scriptures regardless of what I believe.

2 Timothy 3:15-17---King James Version (KJV)
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Hair--where is your Bible?


RFH is making a point that you deny the correctness of the Bible..

I know. But the Bible is true regardless of what he believes about me--and we should both use it and believe it.


Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


Your doctrine as explained in the AofF tell us that you see the Bible as true only as far as it is translated correctly. You offer no correct translation, the "Inspired Version" is always held as incomplete.

I use the KJV--and believe it is an amazingly well preserved translation, even though we might have some translations that differ from it, that some claim are better translations.

[James Banta]

use the KJV--and believe it is an amazingly well preserved translation, even though we might have some translations that differ from it, that some claim are better translations.

Archeology has continued to be a growing science and much has been rediscovered since 1611.. Yes the KJV is a wonderful translation. It's fidelity to the original language is a awe inspiring... But archeology has given us knowledge of older m****cripts in the original language. Ignoring them because the KJV of the Bible is "good enough" is reminiscent of the old joke that if "The KJ Bible was good enough for Paul, it's good enough for me"..

The LDS are ones that are some of the closest of all people that say they believe the Bible in clinging tightly to that old joke.. BUT as you scoff at other more recent translations You complain about our resistant to what you call more of God's word and then turn around to deny the modern translation that have the benefit of archeological discoveries that show a different look at some old questions.. Questions like, is Mark 16:8-20 really part of the scripture, if a woman was taken in adultery, the very act, where was the man? Why shouldn't we use the light on the scriptures that God provides? IHS jim

[Erundur]

Because this thread was created to level accusations of criminal behavior against a specific person by name, I think it's only right that the outcome of the situation be reported here as well.

Yesterday, a jury acquitted former Utah attorney general John Swallow of all charges against him.
http://www.ksl.com/?sid=43353861&nid=148&***le=jury-acquits-john-swallow-of-all-charges

[alanmolstad]

not really a case I knew of or followed...

read the link and it sure seems to be a mess going on wherever this is...



as for the guy himself/..I dont know anything ab out him except for this last bit of information we see on your link:


" In addition to state and federal investigations, Swallow was the subject of a Utah House Special Investigative Committee probe in 2013. The panel of state legislators concluded that Swallow hung a veritable “for sale” sign on the attorney general’s office door.

Swallow "compromised the principles and integrity of the office to benefit himself and his political supporters. In so doing, Mr. Swallow breached the public’s trust and demeaned the offices he held,” according to the committee.

The committee turned over its 200-page report to law enforcement.

Swallow remains a defendant, along with Johnson, in a Federal Election Commission civil lawsuit, alleging he helped arrange illegal campaign contributions to Shurtleff, Sen. Mike Lee, R-Utah, and Reid.




thats all I know of this case or the people in it.