Is there any excuse for doing something wrong

[James Banta]

By saying "I was only following orders". Down through history this excuse has been used..

In 1474, in the trial of Peter von Hagenbach by an ad hoc tribunal of the Holy Roman Empire, the first known “international” recognition of commanders’ obligations to act lawfully occurred. Hagenbach offered the defense that he was just following orders, but this defense was rejected and he was convicted of war crimes and beheaded. (An Introduction to the International Criminal Court, William A. Schabas, Cambridge University Press, Third Edition).

On October 8, 1945, Anton Dostler was the first German general to be tried for war crimes by a U.S. military tribunal at the Royal Palace of Caserta in Caserta. He was accused of ordering the execution of 15 captured U.S. soldiers in March 1944. He admitted ordering the execution but said that he could not be held responsible because he was just following orders from his superiors. This defense was rejected, Dostler was found guilty of war crimes. He was sentenced to death and executed by a firing squad on December 1, 1945..

"The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him." ( Nuremberg Principle IV)..

Can a person who breaks the moral laws of God and aids the abomination of sodomy be excused by saying "I was only following orders".. Don't bet your eternal destiny on it.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Isn't this what the county clerks of Utah that are LDS are doing as they issue marriage licenses to same sex coupes? They are doing wrong because, after I they are "only following orders".. No one not their supervisors, not the laws, not the courts can force them to become party to this abomination. They don't have to stay in that position.. There are other ways of making a living.. It may require more work to change their employment but it is done my millions of people every year.. IHS jim

[neverending]

Isn't this what the county clerks of Utah that are LDS are doing as they issue marriage licenses to same sex coupes? They are doing wrong because, after I they are "only following orders".. No one not their supervisors, not the laws, not the courts can force them to become party to this abomination. They don't have to stay in that position.. There are other ways of making a living.. It may require more work to change their employment but it is done my millions of people every year.. IHS jim

I certainly agree. It also brings to mind the holocaust where many German soldiers were ordered to murder innocent Jewish people, babies, children, women, the old and infirm. These men who helped murder 6 million Jews are as guilty as the commanders who gave the order. To sit back and not do anything is just as wrong. So for fear of either losing their own life or here in Utah, fear of losing one's ***, then again, these people are guilty of condoning sin. How do they sleep at night? Once again, evil is being called good.

[James Banta]

I certainly agree. It also brings to mind the holocaust where many German soldiers were ordered to murder innocent Jewish people, babies, children, women, the old and infirm. These men who helped murder 6 million Jews are as guilty as the commanders who gave the order. To sit back and not do anything is just as wrong. So for fear of either losing their own life or here in Utah, fear of losing one's ***, then again, these people are guilty of condoning sin. How do they sleep at night? Once again, evil is being called good.

There are those that will say "We never called good. evil".. I will say that going against the word of God is EVIL, no matter what.. And I should know...

Leviticus 18:22
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Leviticus 20:13
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination...

There are others that will complain that this is the Old Testament and Jesus came and did away with that old Law.. I say that he never did away with the Law but fulfilled it instead.. Still there is much that is not completely fulfilled and until ALL is fulfilled the Law is still with us and is still in full force:

Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth p***, one jot or one ***tle shall in no wise p*** from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Yes I know that is still all Old Testament teaching and yes much has changed but has the teaching against ****sexuality? NO! In the New testament ****sexuality is still condemned.

Romans 1:26-27
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.

That should be the last statement needed for a Christian to condemn ****sexuality. Christians should separate themselves totally from this SIN.. To make accommodation for this sin, or any sin (Even if it is your ***) is to call good evil and evil good.. Anyone that does that is no more a Christian than were the crusaders that killed men, woman, and children indiscriminately. If a man know what was going on would he have sharpen their swords and then stand back and say, I was just following orders? If this weren't so serious it would be funny. But this isn't funny.. I call on ever county official in Utah that is called on to issue marriage license to ****sexual couples to refuse to do so even at the peril of their ***s.. Stand up for the right, choosing to obey God even when it is hard.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

By saying "I was only following orders". Down through history this excuse has been used..

In 1474, in the trial of Peter von Hagenbach by an ad hoc tribunal of the Holy Roman Empire, the first known “international” recognition of commanders’ obligations to act lawfully occurred. Hagenbach offered the defense that he was just following orders, but this defense was rejected and he was convicted of war crimes and beheaded. (An Introduction to the International Criminal Court, William A. Schabas, Cambridge University Press, Third Edition).

On October 8, 1945, Anton Dostler was the first German general to be tried for war crimes by a U.S. military tribunal at the Royal Palace of Caserta in Caserta. He was accused of ordering the execution of 15 captured U.S. soldiers in March 1944. He admitted ordering the execution but said that he could not be held responsible because he was just following orders from his superiors. This defense was rejected, Dostler was found guilty of war crimes. He was sentenced to death and executed by a firing squad on December 1, 1945..

"The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him." ( Nuremberg Principle IV)..

Can a person who breaks the moral laws of God and aids the abomination of sodomy be excused by saying "I was only following orders".. Don't bet your eternal destiny on it.. IHS jim
I gots to disagree with this one Jim...

I don't think there is anything wrong at all with allowing gays to get married.
By this I mean it does not help them become "more" gay.

In my view its like feeding someone who is gay at your table.
Or fixing a car that is owned by a gay.
or opening a door for someone who is gay.
It does not help them become even more gay, but it does show you treat all people the same regardless of your views of their personal life.

Thus I don't think we should make a clerk p***ing out the marriage paperwork to be equal to a guy lining up Americans against a wall and shooting them in the head.

[RealFakeHair]

I gots to disagree with this one Jim...

I don't think there is anything wrong at all with allowing gays to get married.
By this I mean it does not help them become "more" gay.

In my view its like feeding someone who is gay at your table.
Or fixing a car that is owned by a gay.
or opening a door for someone who is gay.
It does not help them become even more gay, but it does show you treat all people the same regardless of your views of their personal life.

Thus I don't think we should make a clerk p***ing out the marriage paperwork to be equal to a guy lining up Americans against a wall and shooting them in the head.

I think gays should be allowed to marry their dogs or cats, wait, gay men like cats and gay women like dogs, so should they be allowed to marry the opposites?

[alanmolstad]

feeding people ....helping them fix their cars, bring protections of law and finances, all such things do not make people gayer.

their soul and their salvation are matters that the church can speak on.
But when dealing with legal standing we should allow such things to be handled by the ruling legal system we live under.

and it would be silly to make a person who is pushing paper in an office try to look equal to a guy lining up Americans against a wall....

[RealFakeHair]

feeding people ....helping them fix their cars, bring protections of law and finances, all such things do not make people gayer.

their soul and their salvation are matters that the church can speak on.
But when dealing with legal standing we should allow such things to be handled by the ruling legal system we live under.

and it would be silly to make a person who is pushing paper in an office try to look equal to a guy lining up Americans against a wall....
I think some people said the same thing in 1936 Germany, but I could be wrong.

[Apologette]

These "marriages," so-called, are simply alliances not recognized by God. Our whole society has broken down. God is mocked, marriage is mocked, Jesus was even impersonated recently by the fellow who plays Spinoza on NCIS in a pro-abortion ad! We no longer watch that show. Obama, in my opinion, has pretty much undermined the moral fabric of this country, which must have been pretty shallow since he was able to do it so quickly. We are no better than the Romans were just before the hordes swept in and destroyed the Empire. America has p***ed into history, and I don't think we need to wrap ourselves in the flag any longer - we should wrap ourselves in the cross! God will not "bless America," where millions of babies have been savagely killed in the womb, Jesus is mocked nearly daily, and the Gospel falls on deaf ears. It began when they decided to exclude prayer from our schools. This is the fruit of disbelief!

[RealFakeHair]

These "marriages," so-called, are simply alliances not recognized by God. Our whole society has broken down. God is mocked, marriage is mocked, Jesus was even impersonated recently by the fellow who plays Spinoza on NCIS in a pro-abortion ad! We no longer watch that show. Obama, in my opinion, has pretty much undermined the moral fabric of this country, which must have been pretty shallow since he was able to do it so quickly. We are no better than the Romans were just before the hordes swept in and destroyed the Empire. America has p***ed into history, and I don't think we need to wrap ourselves in the flag any longer - we should wrap ourselves in the cross! God will not "bless America," where millions of babies have been savagely killed in the womb, Jesus is mocked nearly daily, and the Gospel falls on deaf ears. It began when they decided to exclude prayer from our schools. This is the fruit of disbelief!

And all this time Christians have given weak response to every evil thing done for the past 50+ years.
IMHO, Christians need to get a backbone and begin a resistance movement, even to the point of breaking laws.

[alanmolstad]

These "marriages," so-called, are simply alliances not recognized by God.

The law of God is up to God to decide...and He can decided all he wants as to the fate of men's souls...

But the law of men is up to man to decide...

The moment we turn over the law of the land to people that use their religious teachings to hand out rights we become just the same as the backward countries taken over by Islam.

What we should stand for is equality ...equality under the Law.
Equal rights.....none with more, none will less.

Seeking only to protect the rights of they who have no voice.

There simply is no reason to treat people differently because of sex....it's silly and opens the door to all kinds of abuse.

I think its a very poor witness that some Christians would refuse to give food to another person over who that person married, or wanted to marry.

I think it is also a very poor witness that some Christians would refuse to help a person in need over such a question...or to not fix their car if it was broken...

I also think that it is wrong to ***ume that a clerk for the State of Utah is just as guilty of a crime before God as Hitler...

and the people that try to force the two to look equal simply don't know what they are talking about.



As a faith it is disappointing that some Christians cant see past their own personal views and see the person.
See a person who is seeking food, and feed them.
See a person with a question and give them an answer.
see a person with a need and fill that need.
See a person who is thirsty and give them water.


But, there are always some people that when they see someone who they know is thirsty will not offer them a drink because they have the wrong philosophy....the wrong religion....or they worship the wrong God....married the wrong person...

[RealFakeHair]

The law of God is up to God to decide...
The law of men is up to man to decide...

There simply is no reason to treat people differently because of sex.

I think its a very poor witness that some Christians would refuse to give food to another person over who that person married, or wanted to marry.

I think it is also a very poor witness that some Christians would refuse to help a person in need over such a question...or to not fix their car if it was broken...

I also think that it is wrong to ***ume that a clerk for the State of Utah is just as guilty of a crime before God as Hitler...

and the people that try to force the two to look equal simply don't know what they are talking about.

We all treat people differently because of (sex) we are wired that way, ie God's way. Do I treat beautiful women difference than non-or not so beautiful women? Of course I do, even if I try not to. It is in our DNA. Does that make it right? NO!
Same way it is with un-natural behavior is sex between same sex.

[alanmolstad]

We all treat people differently because of (sex) we are wired that way, ie God's way. Do I treat beautiful women difference than non-or not so beautiful women? Of course I do, even if I try not to. It is in our DNA. Does that make it right? NO!
Same way it is with un-natural behavior is sex between same sex.


We stand at the well with a bucket of water, and someone who is thirsty asks us for a drink....

We face a decision...

Do we give the person a drink because they are thirsty?
Or do we first call into question the matter of the person's philosophy?

[RealFakeHair]

We stand at the well with a bucket of water, and someone who is thirsty asks us for a drink....

We face a decision...

Do we give the person a drink because they are thirsty?
Or do we first call into question the matter of the person's philosophy?

What we should do and what we do are sometimes different. We can only hope to choose the correct thing.

[Apologette]

The law of God is up to God to decide...and He can decided all he wants as to the fate of men's souls...

But the law of men is up to man to decide...

The moment we turn over the law of the land to people that use their religious teachings to hand out rights we become just the same as the backward countries taken over by Islam.

What we should stand for is equality ...equality under the Law.
Equal rights.....none with more, none will less.

Seeking only to protect the rights of they who have no voice.

There simply is no reason to treat people differently because of sex....it's silly and opens the door to all kinds of abuse.

I think its a very poor witness that some Christians would refuse to give food to another person over who that person married, or wanted to marry.

I think it is also a very poor witness that some Christians would refuse to help a person in need over such a question...or to not fix their car if it was broken...

I also think that it is wrong to ***ume that a clerk for the State of Utah is just as guilty of a crime before God as Hitler...

and the people that try to force the two to look equal simply don't know what they are talking about.



As a faith it is disappointing that some Christians cant see past their own personal views and see the person.
See a person who is seeking food, and feed them.
See a person with a question and give them an answer.
see a person with a need and fill that need.
See a person who is thirsty and give them water.


But, there are always some people that when they see someone who they know is thirsty will not offer them a drink because they have the wrong philosophy....the wrong religion....or they worship the wrong God....married the wrong person...
Christians believe the Bible which tells us marriage is between a man and a woman, Alan. It is not between two men, two women, a man and a dog (oh, wait, that's down the road). Look at the Episcopal church - they perform gay weddings and ordain gay priests - now they call it the gay church. This is not the model I want for my grandchildren - in fact, I think it is disastrous to put children in public schools, as Dobson pointed out years ago. Either home school or send to Christian schools. I think we have to be in a "holding position," and if the forces that be come into our churches and demand that the pastor performs gay marriages - like RealFakeHair indicated, then it would be time to resist. We must obey God rather than man said Peter, and that is still true. North of the border hate speech is extended to the pulpit, where preaching against ****sexual practice is seen as a violation of the law. Christians in Africa and the Middle East are already under horrendous persecution. They are even examining that in Congress. It will come here soon enough!

[Apologette]

We stand at the well with a bucket of water, and someone who is thirsty asks us for a drink....

We face a decision...

Do we give the person a drink because they are thirsty?
Or do we first call into question the matter of the person's philosophy?
False ****ogy. We're talking about violation of God's Law regarding sex, and the command to give a thirsty person a gl*** of water. Apples and Oranges. If, when the person's thirst is quenched, he asks to come and preach about the beauty of ****sexual sex in our Church, we say, "no way." In fact, we might give him a Bible and tell him to read Romans 1.

[alanmolstad]

the correct response to "Give me a drink" is?

"Here you go"

[James Banta]

feeding people ....helping them fix their cars, bring protections of law and finances, all such things do not make people gayer.

their soul and their salvation are matters that the church can speak on.
But when dealing with legal standing we should allow such things to be handled by the ruling legal system we live under.http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=152682

and it would be silly to make a person who is pushing paper in an office try to look equal to a guy lining up Americans against a wall....

Know what? I don't care as long as the Church is left out of the mix.. If the state wants to join these people in the bonds of sin, fine.. Yet there have been people who haven't wanted to become involved in ****sexual marriages that have been forced to do so until they closed their businesses to ALL patronage. Christian people forced to go out of business because they didn't want to be a gay couples baker.. The Gay couple was able to use the court to call a Christian evil and themselves good.. If it wasn't that they insist on forcing people to accept their perversion as normal maybe it would be so objectionable.. It's just like the LDS demanding that they are Christian when they deny the Divinity of Jesus, demand that God is a mere glorified man, and insist that if they are "obedient" they can be come a God to another generation of spirit children..

The Holy Spirit through Paul points out that ****sexuality is vile. It is written that they are filled with all unrighteousness.. As their will is forced onto the Church this wickedness will corrupt even those that believe into believing that they must be accepted or the Church will become nothing more than bigots..

Let the world call us what they may. Let them close our businesses, even our churches. Those of us that will not call good evil and evil good will not allow our faith to be distorted. Small churches will survive even if we have to meet in our homes.. The danger of ****sexuality to destroy our way of life has already been made clear.. This isn't just a live and let live sin.. It is a destructive horrible force in our lives. Something that must be resisted for the Church to remain the salt of the earth.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

..... Christian people forced to go out of business because they didn't want to be a gay couples baker........

I just think it would be better to give people food who ask for it, rather than feeding people based only on their philosophy.

[James Banta]

I just think it would be better to give people food who ask for it, rather than feeding people based only on their philosophy.

Providing food is something no Christian would deny the hungry this was cake.. Since Maria Antoinette no one has said "Let them eat cake".. Bakeries now provide decorations and niceties for celebrations.. These folks were DEMANDING that a Christian people to help them celebrate.. A ****sexual wedding is no reason for a Christian to celebrate.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Providing food is something no Christian would deny the hungry this was cake..

So it is a Christian doctrine that Christians can deny food to people based on their philosophy, or the sugar content?

This is a real teaching?

[alanmolstad]

It sorta like when people would refuse to serve interracial dinners at a cafe....

It's like if a gay person took their car to a shop, the guy working on cars would first have to ask, "Now you dont plan to ever give rides to other gay people in this car right?"

Its like a surgeon saying - "Now before I perform this operation, I have to know if the results of this operation will make you more attractive to your straight or to your gay friends?"


Or a school bus driver deciding that he cant drive a child home if the child's parent is gay.

[James Banta]

It sorta like when people would refuse to serve interracial dinners at a cafe....

It's like if a gay person took their car to a shop, the guy working on cars would first have to ask, "Now you dont plan to ever give rides to other gay people in this car right?"

Its like a surgeon saying - "Now before I perform this operation, I have to know if the results of this operation will make you more attractive to your straight or to your gay friends?"


Or a school bus driver deciding that he cant drive a child home if the child's parent is gay.

You will have to explain to me how any of these examples is a celebration of a gay marriage.. I don't see how seeing people of a different race as unworthy of service as being in anyway the same thing as not servicing a ****sexual celebration of their sin.. It is in no way the same thing as racism, racism is sin, ****sexuality is sin.. Celebrating either is sin. If I was having lunch at a cafe and I saw this display of racism I would get up and leave.. We can love all sinners, yes even ****sexual sin, without becoming involved in the celebration of the sin.. We should never be forced to even aid in such a celebration.. IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

It sorta like when people would refuse to serve interracial dinners at a cafe....

It's like if a gay person took their car to a shop, the guy working on cars would first have to ask, "Now you dont plan to ever give rides to other gay people in this car right?"

Its like a surgeon saying - "Now before I perform this operation, I have to know if the results of this operation will make you more attractive to your straight or to your gay friends?"


Or a school bus driver deciding that he cant drive a child home if the child's parent is gay.

It all depends. First a school bus driver works for someone else, thus doesn't have the right to may a decision one way or the other. As for the other example it might depend on the company or person's own policy.

[alanmolstad]

You will have to explain to me how any of these examples is a celebration of a gay marriage.. I don't see how seeing people of a different race as unworthy of service as being in anyway the same thing as not servicing a ****sexual celebration of their sin.. It is in no way the same thing as racism, racism is sin, ****sexuality is sin.. Celebrating either is sin. If I was having lunch at a cafe and I saw this display of racism I would get up and leave.. We can love all sinners, yes even ****sexual sin, without becoming involved in the celebration of the sin.. We should never be forced to even aid in such a celebration.. IHS jimIt is the same....


The moment we stop offering help to people based on their personal philosophy we become just like people who stopped serving people based on skin color....there is no difference!

feeding people....fixing their cars....driving their children home from school....there is no difference.
If we stop to first ask, "are you gay? are your parents gay?..will this be eaten by someone who is gay? we start to become a faith that is repellant.

[RealFakeHair]

It is the same....


The moment we stop offering help to people based on their personal philosophy we become just like people who stopped serving people based on skin color....there is no difference!

feeding people....fixing their cars....driving their children home from school....there is no difference.
If we stop to first ask, "are you gay? are your parents gay?..will this be eaten by someone who is gay? we start to become a faith that is repellant.

Considering Jesus being a good Jew thought of the woman at the well as a dog, I don't know where you are going with this?

[alanmolstad]

Considering Jesus being a good Jew thought of the woman at the well as a dog, I don't know where you are going with this?

I believe that Jesus reached out to the woman in a wonderful manner....

Jesus reached past stereotypes and found the person...

His being able to take from her water and drink from her hand is lost in our world, but was stunning to his 12 Disciples who were all kinds of upset with Jesus for even talking to her in the first place, let alone taking something from her hand...

her personal life was a mess, her religion was wrong, and she seemed out to avoid looking at her life, but Jesus loved her, and opened his heart and his hands to her..

[RealFakeHair]

I believe that Jesus reached out to the woman in a wonderful manner....

Jesus reached past stereotypes and found the person...

His being able to take from her water and drink from her hand is lost in our world, but was stunning to his 12 Disciples who were all kinds of upset with Jesus for even talking to her in the first place, let alone taking something from her hand...

her personal life was a mess, her religion was wrong, and she seemed out to avoid looking at her life, but Jesus loved her, and opened his heart and his hands to her..
Yes, but her station in life did not change, she still remained a dog or lower cl*** person to the Jew.

[James Banta]

It is the same....


The moment we stop offering help to people based on their personal philosophy we become just like people who stopped serving people based on skin color....there is no difference!

feeding people....fixing their cars....driving their children home from school....there is no difference.
If we stop to first ask, "are you gay? are your parents gay?..will this be eaten by someone who is gay? we start to become a faith that is repellant.


You really don't see that offering services that have nothing to do with whether a person is ****sexual or not, like bagging groceries, repairing a car, or even mowing a lawn is the same thing as being required to offer services that sole purpose is in the celebration of their sin are all the same thing? That selling gasoline for their car is the same thing as providing prophylactics?

My wife has a dear friend that is gay. He is older and we have helped make it possible for him to safely take a bath extending the time he will be able to remain in his home.. I don't see personal hygiene as having anything to do with his sin.. neither do I see any of the other activities you have mentioned in aiding in their sin is action or support of the celebration of that sin.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Yes, but her station in life did not change, she still remained a dog or lower cl*** person to the Jew.

The lesson for us here is that Jesus did not refuse to deal with her just because she lived a evil life, or worshiped the wrong religion...

I wish that same lesson would catch-on with my brother and sister Christians.



He clearly was seeking her out....and in that moment he asked her for something to drink from her hand it was breaking down the walls between himself and her...

She was not just a immoral person that he could not have anything to do with....rather he showed her that his love for her was greater than her sins against god could ever be...

[alanmolstad]

You really don't see that offering services that have nothing to do with whether a person is ****sexual or not, like bagging groceries, repairing a car, or even mowing a lawn is the same thing as being required to offer services that sole purpose is in the celebration of their sin are all the same thing? That selling gasoline for their car is the same thing as providing prophylactics?

My wife has a dear friend that is gay. He is older and we have helped make it possible for him to safely take a bath extending the time he will be able to remain in his home.. I don't see personal hygiene as having anything to do with his sin.. neither do I see any of the other activities you have mentioned in aiding in their sin is action or support of the celebration of that sin.. IHS jim


Its all the same..

The guy baking a cake, the guy renting the tux.....the guy pumping the gas for the Limo....the guy driving the limo...the old lady sweeping the room before the start...the man who sold the propane to heat the building...The truck driver who plowed the street for the city....the insurance agent who sold the insurance that allowed everyone to drive their cars there....the people that built the building in the first place...the people who paied their taxes that provided the water and sewer in the street......the......etc...etc..etc...

all the same...

All treating people the same without regard to how evil a life they may have lived....
people who treat all others with dignity and equality.

people treating others with love and kindness, like Christ who reached out to people..

Remember what it says about Jesus, how he was never afraid to break bread with people who proved to him first that they were 100% pure and perfectly without sin?.....er...wait thats not what it says about him?


I may have to check that last fact with the text... :)

[RealFakeHair]

The lesson for us here is that Jesus did not refuse to deal with her just because she lived a evil life, or worshiped the wrong religion...

I wish that same lesson would catch-on with my brother and sister Christians.



He clearly was seeking her out....and in that moment he asked her for something to drink from her hand it was breaking down the walls between himself and her...

She was not just a immoral person that he could not have anything to do with....rather he showed her that his love for her was greater than her sins against god could ever be...
It wasn't about her, it was about Him. Jesus offered the woman living water, and nothing more.

[RealFakeHair]

Its all the same..

The guy baking a cake, the guy renting the tux.....the guy pumping the gas for the Limo....the guy driving the limo...the old lady sweeping the room before the start...the man who sold the propane to heat the building...The truck driver who plowed the street for the city....the insurance agent who sold the insurance that allowed everyone to drive their cars there....the people that built the building in the first place...the people who paied their taxes that provided the water and sewer in the street......the......etc...etc..etc...

all the same...

All treating people the same without regard to how evil a life they may have lived....
people who treat all others with dignity and equality.

people treating others with love and kindness, like Christ who reached out to people..

Remember what it says about Jesus, how he was never afraid to break bread with people who proved to him first that they were 100% pure and perfectly without sin?.....er...wait thats not what it says about him?


I may have to check that last fact with the text... :)
If two or more persons came to me and ask me to marry them as man to man or woman to woman, I would refuse. End of story.

[alanmolstad]

If two or more persons came to me and ask me to marry them as man to man or woman to woman, I would refuse. End of story.

I understand your thoughts.
You believe you can not be seen ***ociating with such people. ( see John 4:9 or http://www.biblegateway.com/p***age/?search=John+4&version=NIV )

[Apologette]

The lesson for us here is that Jesus did not refuse to deal with her just because she lived a evil life, or worshiped the wrong religion...

I wish that same lesson would catch-on with my brother and sister Christians.



He clearly was seeking her out....and in that moment he asked her for something to drink from her hand it was breaking down the walls between himself and her...

She was not just a immoral person that he could not have anything to do with....rather he showed her that his love for her was greater than her sins against god could ever be...

Should an open adulterer be given the Eucharist? The priest fully aware of the sin?

[alanmolstad]

Should an open adulterer be given the Eucharist? The priest fully aware of the sin?

I have no idea about Catholic rules....
So I cant speak to what this or that Catholic Priest might have done before, or teaches...

But I can speak to what should be the response, from the standpoint of a bible-believing Christian.

From what I know of catholic church service, I do know what before you take the bread and wine during the church service there is a moment of "Confession" where the person will confess their sins to God, and at the point the minister will announce the Lord's forgiveness of sins.....all sins....

Thus, what is there to stop a person from partaking with the Holy meal?




and that brings up the idea that is behind what God is getting at here...in that we Christians should NEVER claim to live "better" lives than others.

We are not better....not better at all.

Any time some Christian stands up and points the finger at others and says, "Shame, shame" we soon learn that the person with their finger out was guilty of much worse sins...

So I should never say I was "better" than someone who is guilty of sin...
The thing that makes me a Christian is not that Im better, but rather its that I'm forgiven.

When we go out into the world and we run into people that we know are big sinners, we cant offer to them a means to get "better" because we ourselves are always failing to be "better"..

But we can offer to sinners a way to be forgiven of their sin.

and our way to be forgiven ALWAYS works!


We bring the message of forgiveness to the world....not self-improvement.

[RealFakeHair]

I understand your thoughts.
You believe you can not be seen ***ociating with such people. ( see John 4:9 or http://www.biblegateway.com/p***age/?search=John+4&version=NIV )

I am so glad you understand my thoughts, even though you are 100% wrong on that matter.
Being seen isn't the point, it is what being seen has to do with the matter at hand and nothing else.

[neverending]

I understand your thoughts.
You believe you can not be seen ***ociating with such people. ( see John 4:9 or http://www.biblegateway.com/p***age/?search=John+4&version=NIV )

Seems you just don't get it. When God himself condemns ****sexuality because it is according to him an abomination, then we as Christians need to adhere to his teachings. I have a very dear friend and old co-worker who is gay and has a partner of whom they've lived together for almost 30 years. I've been there to offer my help countless times. I spent several thousand dollars to have a walk in tub installed in his home so that he could feel safe to take a bath and not have to worry about slipping and falling. I've visited him so often in the hospital when he's been ill or when he was involved in a car accident. I've taken him food when he's not been well. I've done these things out of my love and concern for his well bearing, nothing more. I don't accept his lifestyle but he is still my friend. My own brother was gay as well but I loved him too, he has been gone for almost seven years now and I miss him everyday.....we had so much in common, love of music, movies, and good food. We could talk for hours about anything. So, to accuse another Christian that they can't be seen ***ociating with gays, is off base and out of line. When did anyone make you God so you could judge another?
If a Christian owned business refuses to do business with gays, that is their right to do so and our government or local governments needs to get their noses out of people's business. Can you not see how corrupt and far this country has fallen? There is so much evil, and vile people pushing their disgusting lifestyles on everyone that it makes me want to puke.

[RealFakeHair]

Seems you just don't get it. When God himself condemns ****sexuality because it is according to him an abomination, then we as Christians need to adhere to his teachings. I have a very dear friend and old co-worker who is gay and has a partner of whom they've lived together for almost 30 years. I've been there to offer my help countless times. I spent several thousand dollars to have a walk in tub installed in his home so that he could feel safe to take a bath and not have to worry about slipping and falling. I've visited him so often in the hospital when he's been ill or when he was involved in a car accident. I've taken him food when he's not been well. I've done these things out of my love and concern for his well bearing, nothing more. I don't accept his lifestyle but he is still my friend. My own brother was gay as well but I loved him too, he has been gone for almost seven years now and I miss him everyday.....we had so much in common, love of music, movies, and good food. We could talk for hours about anything. So, to accuse another Christian that they can't be seen ***ociating with gays, is off base and out of line. When did anyone make you God so you could judge another?
If a Christian owned business refuses to do business with gays, that is their right to do so and our government or local governments needs to get their noses out of people's business. Can you not see how corrupt and far this country has fallen? There is so much evil, and vile people pushing their disgusting lifestyles on everyone that it makes me want to puke.

It is good to see that you get it. There is a difference between helping someone in need, and needlessly helping someone's ungodly behavior.

[alanmolstad]

It is good to see that you get it. There is a difference between helping someone in need, and needlessly helping someone's ungodly behavior.nope....

they are the same....

The guy who pumped the septic tank so that the marriage party would have a place for their **** to go to has helped just as much as the guy who stood up and said, "Do you take this man?"

Both are called to look past their own intolerance and to treat each person the way they would wish to be treated...
Remember the Golden Rule has no asterisk* allowing Christians to mistreat the "bad people"


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(Did you expect less from my posts?)

[alanmolstad]

I am so glad you understand my thoughts, even though you are 100% wrong on that matter.
Being seen isn't the point, it is what being seen has to do with the matter at hand and nothing else.


I did understand that post ...however not this one.

" it is what being seen has to do with the matter at hand and nothing else."
I dont understand this sentence completely...its like you left out some words or something?

[alanmolstad]

stand by, Im sure neverending will soon share why Im wrong

[James Banta]

nope....

they are the same....

The guy who pumped the septic tank so that the marriage party would have a place for their **** to go to has helped just as much as the guy who stood up and said, "Do you take this man?"

Both are called to look past their own intolerance and to treat each person the way they would wish to be treated...
Remember the Golden Rule has no asterisk* allowing Christians to mistreat the "bad people"


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-

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-
(Did you expect less from my posts?)

Giving a service that everyone needs as part of their ADLs is not the same thing as providing the means to celebrate sin.. I don't know how to make that clearer. No one here is asking anyone to hate. No one is asking that gays be separated from society the way blacks were separated. That was an evil the world can well do without. I am asking only for the right not to involve the Church in a sin said to be an abomination to God.. Don't ask us to bless such a sin, don't ask us to give support in their celebrations. Also don't believe that we will deny them the means to live. I have no problem in working with gays, having friends that are gay, even helping them is doing their yard work or shoveling snow.. But I won't attend any celebration of their sin.. I won't give any gifts that would confirm my agreement with gays forming a marriage.. I can't help what the world does in allowing such an abomination but I don't have to be party to it..

Gays have been among us for a long time. Their unnatural relations with their "friends" is not a problem unless some radical insists on bring their sin to us and asking us to bless it and agree with it.. Let them, as always, keep their celebration of sin to themselves as we hold ours aloof from them.. IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

I did understand that post ...however not this one.

" it is what being seen has to do with the matter at hand and nothing else."
I dont understand this sentence completely...its like you left out some words or something?

I didn't think you would.

[James Banta]

I didn't think you would.

Strange, i understood it completely.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

I cant get the sentence....

[RealFakeHair]

I cant get the sentence....

Because it's what catches the eye, and not the mind.

[alanmolstad]

what is "it's"?

[James Banta]

I cant get the sentence....

Sorry. I still day that it was clear enough for me.. If you can't understand it let it go.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

So to review my views:


If I were hired to fix the water and sewer inside a church, I would fix such things correctly regardless of what type of church it was .
Even a Catholic church?......yes
Even a Mormon church?.......yes


if I were hired to fix the air conditioner inside a church building, I would fix it as best I could regardless of the religion of that church building or what they did inside that room.
Even if it was the Celestial Room inside the Mormon temple?.......yes.


If someone came into my store to buy a wedding ring, I would treat that customer with the same kindness and respect i treat every other customer with, regardless of their personal philosophy.
Even if they looked gay?......yes


If I were hired to bake a cake, or cook any foods for a wedding, or babysit a child so people could attend a wedding, or drive a stretch limo for people at a wedding, or fix the roof of a church so that people could get married, I would do so as best i could.
But would I do that if the people getting married were a different religion?......yes

Would I do that if the people getting married were Mormon?............yes

But would i do that if the people getting married were gay?............Yes.


WHY?

This all is because I was raised to conform my actions to reflect the Golden Rule.

I will treat others as i would wish them to treat me.

If I were getting married, and I needed someone to rush over and fix the water and sewer and I called up a guy to come on the double and get it fixed, I would not want the guy standing there next to the busted water line with his tools and hesitate because he "First had a few questions to ask about my religion and/or my spouse"

[Apologette]

I gots to disagree with this one Jim...

I don't think there is anything wrong at all with allowing gays to get married.
By this I mean it does not help them become "more" gay.

In my view its like feeding someone who is gay at your table.
Or fixing a car that is owned by a gay.
or opening a door for someone who is gay.
It does not help them become even more gay, but it does show you treat all people the same regardless of your views of their personal life.

Thus I don't think we should make a clerk p***ing out the marriage paperwork to be equal to a guy lining up Americans against a wall and shooting them in the head.
So, let me get this straight: you think gays should be allowed to be married? How about telling us when you became a Christian. What kind of Church do you attend?

[alanmolstad]

So, let me get this straight: you think gays should be allowed to be married?

Ok, that's a good pun.....10-points awarded to Apologette.

[James Banta]

Would I repair a roof or the plumbing in a building even if they married gay people, sure.. Would I work with a man even though he was openly gay, Yes.. But would i attend his wedding or stand up for him in his wedding, NO.. Would provide the cake, food, music, transportation, or child care for those involved? NO! Can't see the difference in being involved in a gay wedding as appose to doing general work for people no matter what their politics are? Was it wrong to live in a town in Russia during a time a pogrom was conducted against the Jewish residence? Was it right to sell the persecutors food and services for their homes? While I know it would have been wrong to carry a torch and set fire to Jewish homes and/or beat them as they tried to escape I don't believe it was wrong to live in the town or conduct business there.. But it looks as though you can't separate direct action from the indirect action of just day to day living.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

its all life....

the Buddhist gets married his way....The Mormon gets married his way.....the non-believer in any gods gets married his way...
The this, the that....

The thing that ties us all together as a people is that getting married is part of life...


It has nothing to do with who the baptist guy thinks "should" get married.
It has nothing to do with who the believer in Islam thinks should get married.
It has nothing to do with who the Mormon thinks should get married.
It has nothing to do with who the gay guy thinks should get married.

It has only to do with the love people feel for each other.

Their level of commitment to each other.

Remember "God" does not marry anyone.

People marry themselves.

If you are a religious person the best you can hope for is that your church will "bless" your marriage, but regardless in the end it's none of anyone else's business.

So weather or not any god will bless a marriage is not determined by the cake.

But if I make the gay guy a cake it will look like I indorse his marriage?
Who cares who you indorse?, you are being hired to bake a cake not indorse weddings?....are they paying you to indorse their wedding or bake a cake?...what is your training in?

|But if they get a cake from me it would look like my religion, and therefore my God, is also indorsing their wedding.
You can force your God to do things by baking a cake?....someone actually thinks God is so easily manipulated by men's actions that a bit of flower, sugar and frosting can tie your god's hands?

Trust me, if that is even slightly true your God is fake and was fake from the beginning. It has nothing to do with the cake.

[James Banta]

its all life....


But if I make the gay guy a cake it will look like I indorse his marriage?
Who cares who you indorse?, you are being hired to bake a cake not indorse weddings?....are they paying you to indorse their wedding or bake a cake?...what is your training in?

|But if they get a cake from me it would look like my religion, and therefore my God, is also indorsing their wedding.
You can force your God to do things by baking a cake?....someone actually thinks God is so easily manipulated by men's actions that a bit of flower, sugar and frosting can tie your god's hands?

Trust me, if that is even slightly true your God is fake and was fake from the beginning. It has nothing to do with the cake.

If a person believes that helping the wedding party in any way is an endorsement of something they feel strongly is evil, they shouldn't be required to become involved in the wedding and not be forced out of business because they didn't want to provide a service for such a wedding.. I have seen many a sign in the window of a business that says they reserve the RIGHT to refuse service to anyone. That should be their right. There must be others out there that think like you think they could have gone to. They didn't need to ruin a person's business. Unless that was the purpose the whole time.. That IS EVIL and it was supported by the government.

God wasn't forced to do anything.. The government through the courts forced a business to go under. The exercise of freedom of thought freedom of religion was stripped from this man and he was forced to either compromise his personal religious beliefs of go out of business. I still say shame on the US Government to put a business in such a position.. Shame on anyone that would see this as a proper functioning of the Law.. What happened to freedom of speech in America? IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

If a person believes that helping the wedding party in any way is an endorsement of something they feel strongly is evil, they shouldn't be required to become involved in the wedding and not be forced out of business because they didn't want to provide a service for such a wedding.. ....

I believe there are laws protecting people on such issues from discrimination.
It reminds me of when Black people were not served....

there is always going to be someone somewhere that finds me and my philosophy evil...my God is evil to some people,,,,my religion Im sure is seen as evil by some people.

But if I were getting married I would want the person who is baking my cake to just take my money the same as he takes your money....My money is just as green.

What does it matter if the person behind the counter is Mormon?

Why would you think that just because the guy behind the counter is a different religion than me that this gives him the right to refuse to serve me based only on my personal philosophy?

Does the city have a rule that says you can treat gays differently?

Does your city have a rule that says it's ok to serve people in your store based on how much they agree with the owners religion?


It don't!

I have the right to service as equal as any other person that walks in the door....

If the right to being treated equal is denied to one, that same right is in danger to us all.



lets say i was the one getting married, and the guy behind the counter says, "I refuse to serve you because you wish to marry a catholic and i think that that church is evil"...or "I dont think you should marry outside your Jewish race because it says that is evil in the bible"

What would i do?

I would get a lawyer and take that guy to court and get a ton of cash and a clear statement from the court that if you want to open the door of a shop you have to treat all your customers on an equal footing or face loss of money and jail time.,

[RealFakeHair]

I believe there are laws protecting people on such issues from discrimination.
It reminds me of when Black people were not served....

there is always going to be someone somewhere that finds me and my philosophy evil...my God is evil to some people,,,,my religion Im sure is seen as evil by some people.

But if I were getting married I would want the person who is baking my cake to just take my money the same as he takes your money....My money is just as green.

What does it matter if the person behind the counter is Mormon?

Why would you think that just because the guy behind the counter is a different religion than me that this gives him the right to refuse to serve me based only on my personal philosophy?

Does the city have a rule that says you can treat gays differently?

Does your city have a rule that says it's ok to serve people in your store based on how much they agree with the owners religion?


It don't!

I have the right to service as equal as any other person that walks in the door....

If the right to being treated equal is denied to one, that same right is in danger to us all.



lets say i was the one getting married, and the guy behind the counter says, "I refuse to serve you because you wish to marry a catholic and i think that that church is evil"...or "I dont think you should marry outside your Jewish race because it says that is evil in the bible"

What would i do?

I would get a lawyer and take that guy to court and get a ton of cash and a clear statement from the court that if you want to open the door of a shop you have to treat all your customers on an equal footing or face loss of money and jail time.,

First, the right to discriminate is an equal right we all should have. What business is it of anyone, even the government to tell me who or what I should do with my own business?
If I wanted to have a restaurant and only wanted to serve white left handed blue eyed red headed women with freckles, it should be up to me and not you or the government. That is a equal right, meaning you also have a right not to serve me.

[neverending]

I believe there are laws protecting people on such issues from discrimination.
It reminds me of when Black people were not served....

there is always going to be someone somewhere that finds me and my philosophy evil...my God is evil to some people,,,,my religion Im sure is seen as evil by some people.

But if I were getting married I would want the person who is baking my cake to just take my money the same as he takes your money....My money is just as green.

What does it matter if the person behind the counter is Mormon?

Why would you think that just because the guy behind the counter is a different religion than me that this gives him the right to refuse to serve me based only on my personal philosophy?

Does the city have a rule that says you can treat gays differently?

Does your city have a rule that says it's ok to serve people in your store based on how much they agree with the owners religion?


It don't!

I have the right to service as equal as any other person that walks in the door....

If the right to being treated equal is denied to one, that same right is in danger to us all.



lets say i was the one getting married, and the guy behind the counter says, "I refuse to serve you because you wish to marry a catholic and i think that that church is evil"...or "I dont think you should marry outside your Jewish race because it says that is evil in the bible"

What would i do?

I would get a lawyer and take that guy to court and get a ton of cash and a clear statement from the court that if you want to open the door of a shop you have to treat all your customers on an equal footing or face loss of money and jail time.,

This whole issue would be resolved if gays would keep their lifestyle out of people's faces. They run around bragging about their disgusting lifestyle and wear it like a badge of honor and expect everyone to be accepting of it. A business owner has EVERY right to refuse to serve anyone! This is a free country, for now...we're losing more and more every month, thanks to Obama. Now, what happened to free enterprise? If I were a business owner and gays came into my establishment wanting a cake or flowers or tuxes or dresses, I would turn them away. I would take NO part in helping them fulfill their vile wishes that go against God's law. He called gays being an abomination and by heaven, we should accept what God has condemned. He had a reason..HIV and AIDS.

[alanmolstad]

First, the right to discriminate is an equal right we all should have. What business is it of anyone, even the government to tell me who or what I should do with my own business?
If I wanted to have a restaurant and only wanted to serve white left handed blue eyed red headed women with freckles, it should be up to me and not you or the government. That is a equal right, meaning you also have a right not to serve me.
Outside the KKK I really dont think you will find many people that say "Amen" to such thinking.

it runs counter to the spirit of the Bible.....counter to the christian church....
But as i said, there are members of groups like the KKK that would think there is nothing at all evil with such thinking.

I dont share such an opinion however...

[RealFakeHair]

Outside the KKK I really dont think you will find many people that say "Amen" to such thinking.

it runs counter to the spirit of the Bible.....counter to the christian church....
But as i said, there are members of groups like the KKK that would think there is nothing at all evil with such thinking.

I dont share such an opinion however...
Many don't care for freedom to choose. Perhaps they are afraid to have such liberties, who knows? I for one don't wont you are the government making up my mind for me.

[alanmolstad]

I think that most people understand a basic concept of right and wrong is in play with this question.
That no matter how you try to justify it, that deep down most of us know that it is wrong to treat people differently based only their personal philosophy.

I also think that most of us do come to value and give credit to the people who are able to look past the personal differences they might have with others, and serve people of all colors and stripes in an equal and high standard way.

[alanmolstad]

So, let me get this straight: you think gays should be allowed to be married? How about telling us when you became a Christian. What kind of Church do you attend?

I think that the reason of supporting marriage for two people are the same regardless of the two people.
I think it is wrong to say that it is OK to allow the State to allow some things for some people, and not the same things for others based ONLY on their personal philosophy.

I think that if it becomes easy to look the other way about the mistreatment of some people that are different, it becomes easy to overlook all kinds of other things later..and soon we in the church might find ourselves back to living spiritually in Germany in the 1940's

[RealFakeHair]

I think that the reason of supporting marriage for two people are the same regardless of the two people.
I think it is wrong to say that it is OK to allow the State to allow some things for some people, and not the same things for others based ONLY on their personal philosophy.

I think that if it becomes easy to look the other way about the mistreatment of some people that are different, it becomes easy to overlook all kinds of other things later..and soon we in the church might find ourselves back to living spiritually in Germany in the 1940's

I hope most men out there don't want to marry their moms, but if they do I guess some here think it's OKay!

[alanmolstad]

What does the law read?....

[RealFakeHair]

What does the law read?....
What does the law got to do with the cost of tea in China?

[alanmolstad]

What does the law got to do with the cost of tea in China?I support the law allowing gays to marry...that's my point.

the reason i support the law is that it would be dangerous to start turning a blind eye to the times when people are mistreated over their personal philosophy like this...

The danger is allowing any religious views to justify treating one customer different than others...it's the same allowing whites to eat and blacks go hungry...men to drive a car but women must walk....
members of Islam to vote while Christians cant even hold property.

For in many places in the world such things are common.

In many places in the world they shoot both Christians and gays on sight.

I would hope that we might decide that our country will stand as a beacon of Hope to the world's downtrodden.



But with people who support the thinking that goes with groups like the KKK, there is always a guy some place that thinks when he discriminates against other people that "God smiles"

[RealFakeHair]

I support the law allowing gays to marry...that's my point.

the reason i support the law is that it would be dangerous to start turning a blind eye to the times when people are mistreated over their personal philosophy like this...

The danger is allowing any religious views to justify treating one customer different than others...it's the same allowing whites to eat and blacks go hungry...men to drive a car but women must walk....
members of Islam to vote while Christians cant even hold property.

For in many places in the world such things are common.

In many places in the world they shoot both Christians and gays on sight.

I would hope that we might decide that our country will stand as a beacon of Hope to the world's downtrodden.



But with people who support the thinking that goes with groups like the KKK, there is always a guy some place that thinks when he discriminates against other people that "God smiles"
Poor excuse, is all I can say, really, because it is the law?

[alanmolstad]

I would say that it "is" the law only because it "is' the right thing to do....

and it "is" the right thing to do because it treats all men as being created equal.

[RealFakeHair]

I would say that it "is" the law only because it "is' the right thing to do....

and it "is" the right thing to do because it treats all men as being created equal.
Then you have no excuse; you are only an enabler to Satan's World Order. Good luck at the Pearly Gates.

[James Banta]

I would say that it "is" the law only because it "is' the right thing to do....

and it "is" the right thing to do because it treats all men as being created equal.

Is the Law really there to treat all behaviors as being equal? We must treat liars and thieves as we treat the honest? We must treat murderers as we would treat those that love their fellowman? I don't think so.. You know there are people that say they were born thieves.. Just because kleptomania isn't social acceptable we judge these people as evil? Why if we judge ****sexuality as good? Both are against God's law given to us in the Bible. So all men can be created equal but if their behavior doesn't conform to law they make themselves unequal.. IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

Is the Law really there to treat all behaviors as being equal? We must treat liars and thieves as we treat the honest? We must treat murderers as we would treat those that love their fellowman? I don't think so.. You know there are people that say they were born thieves.. Just because kleptomania isn't social acceptable we judge these people as evil? Why if we judge ****sexuality as good? Both are against God's law given to us in the Bible. So all men can be created equal but if their behavior doesn't conform to law they make themselves unequal.. IHS jim

It took awhile, but Alanmolstad, finally admitted the reason why the support for an abomination is, (it is the right thing to do.) Alanmolstad's law is above God's Law, end of story.

[neverending]

I support the law allowing gays to marry...that's my point.

the reason i support the law is that it would be dangerous to start turning a blind eye to the times when people are mistreated over their personal philosophy like this...

The danger is allowing any religious views to justify treating one customer different than others...it's the same allowing whites to eat and blacks go hungry...men to drive a car but women must walk....
members of Islam to vote while Christians cant even hold property.

For in many places in the world such things are common.

In many places in the world they shoot both Christians and gays on sight.

I would hope that we might decide that our country will stand as a beacon of Hope to the world's downtrodden.



But with people who support the thinking that goes with groups like the KKK, there is always a guy some place that thinks when he discriminates against other people that "God smiles"

So alan, you are proving here that your thinking is better then God's and showing how liberal you are as well. It is NEVER ok to go along with the crowd! The crowd is ALWAYS WRONG!! Our country is falling away from God and we can see where that is leading us. We were told to not be in the world but you certainly are in knee deep. I am sorry for you alan for not following God but following man and man's laws.

[alanmolstad]

Then you have no excuse; you are only an enabler to Satan's World Order. Good luck at the Pearly Gates.do you have any non-personal comments left to make?, or is your argument's PEZ dispenser empty?

[alanmolstad]

Is the Law really there to treat all behaviors as being equal? We must treat liars and thieves as we treat the honest? We must treat murderers as we would treat those that love their fellowman?
There is no law being broken, therefore your whole argument fails.

You cant say then next , "but its against god's law in the bible" because if you used that as your only guide I'm sure some people would want a national law against Jews marring non-Jews, because that's in the Bible too.....

And thats just the Christian bible...think what this world would be like if the Holy Book of Islam were to become the law of the land. Or the holy books of other religions, or the Satanist?......

So you cant use that argument as well....

[alanmolstad]

Alanmolstad's law.....I dont make the law, but I do see how this one is based on equality ....

[RealFakeHair]

I dont make the law, but I do see how this one is based on equality ....

You have your idea, and I will see what the Holy Bible has to say. Okay, let's leave it at that.

[neverending]

I support the law allowing gays to marry...that's my point.

the reason i support the law is that it would be dangerous to start turning a blind eye to the times when people are mistreated over their personal philosophy like this...

The danger is allowing any religious views to justify treating one customer different than others...it's the same allowing whites to eat and blacks go hungry...men to drive a car but women must walk....
members of Islam to vote while Christians cant even hold property.

For in many places in the world such things are common.

In many places in the world they shoot both Christians and gays on sight.

I would hope that we might decide that our country will stand as a beacon of Hope to the world's downtrodden.



But with people who support the thinking that goes with groups like the KKK, there is always a guy some place that thinks when he discriminates against other people that "God smiles"

So with your way of looking at things, it is alright in your book to go against God's law? Do you think you know better then God? "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9).
People who want to live perverse lives, going against what we know is condemned by God are ok? They may be the nicest people you would ever meet but they are sinners, doing vile things and they live in their sin daily. In Old Testament times, these kinds of people would be stoned. Now, we continue being forced to accept these people and laws are being made to give these perverts the same rights as NORMAL people. It makes me sick. Why do they go about bragging about their vile lifestyle? Even here in the city of the headquarters for the Mormon Church, Salt Lake has there Gay Pride Parade every spring. Men walk down Main Street in speedos, and transsexuals dress as women. Families with young children will come out to cheer on these perverts. If this isn't a sign of Satan and his minions running rampant through out the world, I don't know what is. alan, high time you did some real soul searching and get on your knees and ask God to open your eyes and listen to his word and not the words of men. I bet as a teenager you were one that said, "well Tommy does it."

[alanmolstad]

alan, high time you did ...
So you still think I take your suggestions serious?....;)

[James Banta]

So you still think I take your suggestions serious?....;)

Ok you don't like each other.. Let's get the personalities out of this and speak to the subject of MORMONISM.. IHS jim

[neverending]

So you still think I take your suggestions serious?....;)

NO, I never thought you took anything I or anyone else suggested seriously. You have your free will but don't expect others to accept your ideas when they go against God.