how to make golden tablets ?

[alanmolstad]

Lets say that a person wanted to make some golden tablets as described by the Mormon church that Smith found.

What would you need to do to make them?

How could you bring them out that the Mormon church would believe they were the "real deal"?

[James Banta]

Lets say that a person wanted to make some golden tablets as described by the Mormon church that Smith found.

What would you need to do to make them?

How could you bring them out that the Mormon church would believe they were the "real deal"?

The LDS church will never believe that the angel brought the plates back, BUT it isn't hard to make a realistic looking replica.. Here are a whole bunch give them a look.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Replica+of+the+gold+plates&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=np&source=hp

IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

not just "looking"...but what would it take to make exactly the same type of item that the Mormons claim smith had?

And, i think that you could bring them out in such a manner as to give the Mormons what they wanted to see....I dont think it would take too much convincing to fool the Mormon church....


Its all in the way you tell the story...and if the golden plates are just what the Mormons wanted them to be like, I think its not that hard of an idea...

its all how you tell the story.
If the Mormons claim that an angel took them away, well, we can just claim "he brought them back"...
When you fool someone half the thing is to get the other person to want to believe you...





After I started this topic I had a look around, and it turns out that a lot of Mormon guys do make their own version of the golden Plates...
So there seems to be a common way people think the Golden Plates should look when they are making their own version.

thus, i actually dont think it would be all that hard to get the whole church to fall for some that were made to be just what would be expected.

You would not have to worry about C-14 dating them right?
And any other test that might show them to be brand new can be simply ignored or gotten around with the answer, "They were in heaven"


what would you have to make them out of?

what would they look like?

What type of story would you makeup to go with them that would really sell the Mormons that "They are real!"?

[alanmolstad]

I have been reading on this topic over the last few hours, and it seems the weight is an issue to keep in mind.

What would the weight of the Golden tablets have to be in order to get all the Mormons to believe they are real?

[James Banta]

o[/B]lstad;152516]I have been reading on this topic over the last few hours, and it seems the weight is an issue to keep in mind.

What would the weight of the Golden tablets have to be in order to get all the Mormons to believe they are real?

The scholars at BYU, not the LDS church theologians but BUY scholars, have determined that the plates weighed no more than 40 to 50 LBS.. I have carried many a bag full with lawn fertilizer or ornamental rocks that have weighed in that rage.. While it is true that I am not a young man any longer the story of Smith bringing the plates home after finally being trusted with them is still a bit hard to believe.. Running along a path that was an out of the way short cut, having to fight off three attackers, I guess taking the main road would have been safer, and p***ing the plates to his mother through a window in their home.. It has a ring of invention to it rather then of truth.. IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

The scholars at BYU, not the LDS church theologians but BUY scholars, have determined that the plates weighed no more than 40 to 50 LBS.. I have carried many a bag full with lawn fertilizer or ornamental rocks that have weighed in that rage.. While it is true that I am not a young man any longer the story of Smith bringing the plates home after finally being trusted with them is still a bit hard to believe.. Running along a path that was an out of the way short cut, having to fight off three attackers, I guess taking the main road would have been safer, and p***ing the plates to his mother through a window in their home.. It has a ring of invention to it rather then of truth.. IHS jim

Just another faith promotional story, that's all! I could carry about 2 pounds for about a block.

[alanmolstad]

The scholars at BYU, not the LDS church theologians but BUY scholars, have determined that the plates weighed no more than 40 to 50 LBS..

To make sure i understand, are you saying that "each" golden tablet was that heavy?...or the whole set?

40 to 50 lbs is not much if thats for the whole set, but alone then we are talking about some serious weight!

Now remember, the idea I have here with this topic is to construct a set of Mormon Golden tablets, that are exactly what the Mormons would expect them to appear as.

So we will need to talk about other things like thickness of each tablet.....size?....and then we will need to deal with the manner they would be written on.

[alanmolstad]

Just another faith promotional story, that's all! I could carry about 2 pounds for about a block.

Dude, you really need to get to the gym...LOL

[alanmolstad]

Now another thing we would have to keep in mind is the language of the things that are written on the Golden Plates...
We would need to know how to write in this type of language as would be expected, however I do not think we have to worry about making sure our golden Plates match the text of the Mormon Bible, and here is why.


Because it would require a real syntax and a real language to be able to copy word for word what appears in the Mormon Bible already, we need to find a way out of this, and I think i have that way.

We don't have to worry about the text of the Mormon Bible, and we create only a lost or 2nd/secret section of the Mormon Golden Plates.

We can create them to be some type of super-secret "sealed" section, that no Mormon knows what its supposes to say there.

Translation would then be no problem* as you would not need to have things like a "real' language worked out or the correct syntax as you could just have gibberish as long as it looked just like most Mormons expect it to look like.
(* many Mormon "Visionaries" will provide the translation with little encouragement, many Mormons have secretly been practicing that stuff for years on their own...LOL)

[alanmolstad]

The tricky part after the golden Plates are made and ready to be "discovered" is how to go about introducing the Mormons to our new set of golden Plates and make then want to believe in them....

I suggest that the best way for us to have our plates found and believed, is to....hide them.

[alanmolstad]

almost if not even more important than the plates themselves is the type of person we pick to find them.

what we want to avoide is a type of "show-and-tell" person who the moment he finds our golden Plates will be on CNN the next day showing them off to everyone.

We dont want a open-wide person to find them first, rather we want someone to try to keep them secret....allow the myth to build around them.
we need someone who frankly knows how to keep a secret....perhaps showing them off to only a few people, and even then as dimly as possible.
we need someone who knows the value of stuff that he finds, so he has to have a history with looking and finding stuff so he will try to hang on to them as long as he can.

He also has to be the type of person most Mormons would expect to find these Golden Plates...after all Joe Smith is still talked about today years later.....

My guess is that he would have to be Mormon himself...a true believer...someone who also may have had the odd *** or two in a related field dealing with things like pawn shops, or estate sales. etc.

[James Banta]

[alanmolstad;152519]To make sure i understand, are you saying that "each" golden tablet was that heavy?...or the whole set?

The whole set. It is estimated a solid block of the ideal engraving-friendly copper/gold alloy would weigh about 107 pounds. Take half of that away to account for air between the plates and "the weight of the stack of plates would be about 53 pounds." There were said to be six inches by eight inches long by 6 inches deep.


40 to 50 lbs is not much if thats for the whole set, but alone then we are talking about some serious weight!

Remember Smith carried these plates at a dead run a lot of the time, and fought 3 different men on the 2 mile hike back to his home.. 53 LBS is a terrible load for that level of activity.. Next time you buy a 50LBS bag of lawn food try running with thing even over your shoulder for maybe a 1/4 mile and see what it does to you.. That was 1/8 the distance Smith said he carried that load.. Oh maybe you sould tell one of your friend to stop you 1/2 way and push you around a bit while you cling to the load.. See the problem?


Now remember, the idea I have here with this topic is to construct a set of Mormon Golden tablets, that are exactly what the Mormons would expect them to appear as.

That is why I showed you the pictures.. Replicas have been made.. And some of those by the LDS church. I have given you the dimension I gained from LDS.org.. The only description of each "page" was that they were thin.. IHS jim

So we will need to talk about other things like thickness of each tablet.....size?....and then we will need to deal with the manner they would be written on.[/QUOTE]

[alanmolstad]

James, Im only interested in what normal Mormons would expect to find in a set of golden plates...So I dont care how much they weigh only that they do weigh what would be expected by the Mormons themselves.

So would the Mormons expect them to weigh 50 lbs, or over 100?

[alanmolstad]

Next time you buy a 50LBS bag of lawn food try running with thing even over your shoulder for maybe a 1/4 mile and see what it does to you..]
You guys really got to hit the gym..LOL....50lbs is not a lot of weight for a grown man to carry, as long as whatever you have to carry is not too bulky.
...

[Erundur]

So would the Mormons expect them to weigh 50 lbs, or over 100?
Make them weigh between 40 and 60 pounds. That what the people who lifted the gold plates estimated them to weigh.

[alanmolstad]

Make them weigh between 40 and 60 pounds. That what the people who lifted the gold plates estimated them to weigh.ok,,good..

Now what is the current Mormon thinking on what I should make the things out of?

Remember I don't have to match the same number of plates as these Mormon Golden Plates will contain a super-secret sealed selection of Plates.

[alanmolstad]

I should also start think where i would have the Golden Plates found?

We need to find just the right spot , some place that will be one of the places where your average Mormons might believe they are the real deal?

[alanmolstad]

Now.,as i said, picking just the right guy to find our Golden Plates will be a very key thing as a lot will hang on finding just the right guy.

We need him to be a secretive type of person..someone who can spot the many ways finding our new Mormon Golden Plates can be of personal gain to him ......if handled right.

Enter the idea of the "Unimpeachable Witness"

Our finder of the Golden Plates needs to sooner or later start to get the word out about his found treasure, even if he has some doubts about the quality of our craftsmanship, but doing so very carefully and totally in-line with what would be expected by all Mormons for someone who had found such Mormon Plates......

So being able to have people who would appear to other Mormons as being "totally trustworthy" yet, are the first people to start whispering the word out among other Mormons is key.

We need to find people that you know will not be able to keep silent, no matter how strenuously they protest that they "Won't tell a soul"

We need people as our first witnesses that can't keep a personal secret...people you can count on to spread the word even if they promised they would keep their mouths shut.

So yes I'm naturally thinking of the friends and family of the guy we have find our Golden Plates...

[Erundur]

Now what is the current Mormon thinking on what I should make the things out of?
A gold-copper alloy is what the gold plates are thought to have been made of.

[alanmolstad]

although we will not need to copy any text as we are only planning to create the "sealed" part of the Golden Plates we still will need the form of the text to appear in a form that most Mormons expect.

Would most Mormons expect the words on our Golden Plates to be engraved?

[alanmolstad]

from what i understand, most Mormons ***ume that our Golden Plates would be very thin.
This seems to me to also mean that if we engrave them on one side, the marks will cause bumps on the other side to stick down?
My guess is that we would need to use a "stamp" to stamp out each letter?

[Erundur]

Would most Mormons expect the words on our Golden Plates to be engraved?
Yes, just like the real ones.

[alanmolstad]

Now as for what we will want to actually write on our Mormon Golden Plates?......dont worry about it.

All we need is a bunch of random symbols that your average Mormon would expect to see on the "sealed' Golden Plates.
.
From my study of what the Mormons are like, I do not believe that any Mormons will actually be all that concerned that the engravings are nothing but a bunch of gibberish, as long as they are presented well and within a context that Mormons would find reminiscent of the stories of Golden Plates in the past, we are fine.

I do not think many Mormons actually will demand that our engravings form actual words, or have a syntax, or other signs that they are a real language.

I dont think the mormons would look at them with that type of critical eye.

You just have to bring them out in a type of "secret new information" style.....that will cause the average Mormon to "want" to believe in them.

There are a few things we might do to encourage Mormon scholars into inventing their own ways of interpreting the gibberish, and that would be to every once in a while on the engraving have a few symbols that repeat themselves, as if they were repeating words.

Just every once in a while have a set of symbols that appear over and other.

The funny thing about even random letters is that people can use their imaginations and come up with all kinds of patterns and ways to find words and placing meanings into what is actually just gibberish .

[alanmolstad]

My guess is that we would need to use a "stamp" to stamp out each letter?
I think not now....

a 'stamp" would be likely seen as a modern tool, what we want is a type of scratching that would be random.where not two things is the same.

[alanmolstad]

The idea is that you have to have just the right guy find the golden Plates who will know what to do with them...and what we want him to do is not show them off to people!

The LAST thing we want is for the guy to hop onto CNN that night and hold up the golden Plates for everyone and their dog to look at!

No, we need a guy who is a player.
We need a guy who knows his way around this type of market place and who knows how to promote something that deep-down he may have grave doubts about.

But sooner or later in order to promote our golden Plates to the larger mas-market of average Mormons, we will need to let some people see whats on them.
Even if we try to keep people from seeing them in person, or taking photos of them, (however taking the standard UFO-fuzzy photos would be allowed) , so that means there should be mostly "descriptions' of what we have printed on our golden Plates.

And that gets us to a HUGE problem...
For there are some photographs of what some claim is hand-made copy of the letters that appeared on the plates that Smith promoted.

So we face a decision...

Do we copy their style?
or do we ignore their style and invent our own?

The decision is not ours, but rather what we are seeking is what would most Mormons consider to be the right answer to this issue?

[James Banta]

from what i understand, most Mormons ***ume that our Golden Plates would be very thin.
This seems to me to also mean that if we engrave them on one side, the marks will cause bumps on the other side to stick down?
My guess is that we would need to use a "stamp" to stamp out each letter?

Because each side of the plates were said to be engraved the letters were marked in the leaves with some sort of stylus.. My guess would be a shape piece of quarts.. A stamp would mark both sides of the leaves being stamped.. The question is rather the amount of data that could be encoded on the few number of golden plates that was reported by Smith.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

oh we can invent the number of golden Plates all we want.

We are not attempting to copy the open plates, but rather we are designing "Super-Secret "sealed' golden plates.

thus we can make as many as we think the Mormons would expect there to be...
Remember we are designing the plates on this topic to be exactly what most Mormons would believe without questioning...

[alanmolstad]

The question is rather the amount of data that could be encoded on the few number of golden plates that was reported by Smith.. IHS jim

Thats not really an issue here.
The Golden Plates we are designing on this topic are just filled with gibberish....

And that's the clever part of this design too!
If they had too much of a scientific/ logical look to them it would be too great of chance that someone would figure out they are just a bunch of nonsense.

But pure random gibberish can have persuasiveness over the minds of people that have a strong personal interest in wanting the Golden Plates to be genuine.

And thus subject to many invented reasons why they look the way they do in order to make them appear genuine.

Trust me, all you need to do is make them appear just like the average Mormon would guess what they should look like, and the imaginations of Mormon's would fill-in the supporting details.

[James Banta]

Thats not really an issue here.
The Golden Plates we are designing on this topic are just filled with gibberish....

And that's the clever part of this design too!
If they had to scientific/ logical look to them it would be too great of chance that someone would figure out they are just a bunch of nonsense.

But pure random gibberish can have persuasiveness over the minds of people that have a strong personal interest in wanting the Golden Plates to be genuine.

And thus subject to many invented reasons why they look the way they do in order to make them appear genuine.

Trust me, all you need to do is make them appear just like the average Mormon would guess what they should look like, and the imaginations of Mormon's would fill-in the supporting details.

We have an example of Reformed Egyptian.. It should be enough for modern cytologists to use to prove if Reformed Egyptian is a real language or like you say "pure random gibberish".. You must have see it before but if not you can find a copy online at https://www.google.com/search?q=Reformed+Egyptian&client=firefox-a&hs=TgX&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=np&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=3S31UvzWC6iSyQHCp4CoBg&ved=0CDAQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=594#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=Mj1cwx35GZBrlM%253A%3Bfu_3wwcu-Tp2OM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fupload.wikimedia.org%25 2Fwikipedia%252Fcommons%252Fthumb%252F0%252F02%252 FCaractors_large.jpg%252F300px-Caractors_large.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fen.wikipe dia.org%252Fwiki%252FReformed_Egyptian%3B300%3B126 IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

ahh...BUT....would our new golden plates need to copy this style?

Would most Mormons want our plates to have the same style of writings?....or do most Mormons doubt the photos of such writings?

Remember we are seeking to make something that most if not all Mormons would believe are genuine....

[alanmolstad]

as for the link's photos of what was claimed to be on the Plates that Smith promoted?....

I have no idea how any Mormon in their right mind can look at them and think, "Yes, I'll bet my eternal future on em....sure!"

They are so clearly made-up **** that i do have to wonder how tightly a Mormon has to shut their eyes to what they look like to believe in them?

that is also why I do have my doubts that the average Mormon would expect our new Golden Plates to have the same type of childesh marks on them?
I have my doubts that any Mormon really trusts the marks are anything but some **** pulled out of thin air...

And so that is also why for the new set of Mormon Golden Plates we are designing here I would not really say we had to copy the style found on the two photos in your link...


UNLESS.....
Unless most Mormons believe the two photos are showing something that is genuine ???

[RealFakeHair]

as for the link's photos of what was claimed to be on the Plates that Smith promoted?....

I have no idea how any Mormon in their right mind can look at them and think, "Yes, I'll bet my eternal future on em....sure!"

They are so clearly made-up **** that i do have to wonder how tightly a Mormon has to shut their eyes to what they look like to believe in them?

that is also why I do have my doubts that the average Mormon would expect our new Golden Plates to have the same type of childesh marks on them?
I have my doubts that any Mormon really trusts the marks are anything but some **** pulled out of thin air...

And so that is also why for the new set of Mormon Golden Plates we are designing here I would not really say we had to copy the style found on the two photos in your link...


UNLESS.....
Unless most Mormons believe the two photos are showing something that is genuine ???

The great thing about the new golden plates is with the reformed Egyptian writing the LDSinc. prophet could translate the chicken scratch to mean anything. Like, "This new and everlasting revelation from our mormon god say to stop going to the Walter Martin web sight." "Thus say the lard god of Kolbo, or something."

[alanmolstad]

yes...exactly...

Although gibberish in reality, we would not have to try to convince anyone that the gibberish means anything at all!

If the Golden Plates come with a great story attached to them, a "myth" as it were, then people will believe they "must" mean something and so they will "make" them mean something all on their own.

It's like one time in Florida some guys at a radio station had an idea to fake a UFO sighting, so they just said they saw something to see what people would do.

Not long after there were people all lined up to swear they saw the same things....people were more than ready to swear to the truth of something to get in on the story.

I think that if we have a set up our Golden Plates to look just like what the average Mormon expects the "sealed" plates to look like, (and if we present them in a manner that most Mormons think is very much in keeping with the traditional manner Mormon Golden Plates are presented), then the supporting proof and their supporting translations will just naturally appear all on their own.

We will not have to struggle to make sure its a valid translation at all!

The Mormons can figure it all out for us!


But the key thing is making sure that just the right type of guy finds our new Mormon Golden Plates.
We need to have them found by a type of guy who knows what to do with them right from the get-go.
The last thing we want is for them to get dragged up before the media or on CNN and have all kinds of scientists checking them out.

No, what we need is a player, a guy who is clever enough to take one look at our Golden Plates and see the value they can be to him....if kept from being too exposed.

We want word to spread among the Mormon congregations that "Someone has found something"

Word can spread most quickly when its in the form of a whisper.

Naturally the Mormon leadership will have "No official comment on the many rumors" but this will only fuel the fire of speculation that your average Mormon will feel that "The Leadership knows something..."


So how to keep our new Mormon Plates under wraps?....

That's easy, they are "sacred"

Sacred things are different than "secret" things.
Because when people hear you got a secret thing they ***ume you got something you need to hide.

But a "sacred" thing is not "hidden" rather a sacred thing is "protected"

So secret things are hidden, sacred things are protected.

But in reality the same thing would be happening (and that is that the guy who finds our Golden Plates will stuff them under his bed... :)), but the promoted image to the other Mormons would naturally be to interpret not letting anyone see the Golden Plates as "He is just being very protective"

[neverending]

Because each side of the plates were said to be engraved the letters were marked in the leaves with some sort of stylus.. My guess would be a shape piece of quarts.. A stamp would mark both sides of the leaves being stamped.. The question is rather the amount of data that could be encoded on the few number of golden plates that was reported by Smith.. IHS jim

Since there is no evidence that there ever were gold plates and the language of, "reformed Egyptian" we can then say, the whole idea is a fraud. We have statements from 2 professors of Egyptology who can attest to the fact that this language never existed along with a professor of Anthropology from Yale. Do read what they each had to say.
No non-Mormon scholars acknowledge the existence of either a "reformed Egyptian" language or a "reformed Egyptian" script as it has been described in Mormon belief. For instance, in 1966, John A. Wilson, professor of Egyptology at the University of Chicago (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Chicago), wrote, "From time to time there are allegations that picture writing has been found in America… In no case has a professional Egyptologist been able to recognize these characters as Egyptian hieroglyphs. From our standpoint there is no such language as 'reformed Egyptian'." Klaus Baer, another Egyptologist at the University of Chicago, called the characters of the "Caractors" document nothing but "doodlings". An early-twentieth-century scholar said that the "Caractors" document looked more like "deformed English."Anthropologist Michael D. Coe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_D._Coe) of Yale University, an expert in pre-Columbian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Columbian) Mesoamerican (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerican) studies, has written, "Of all the peoples of the pre-Columbian New World, only the ancient Maya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_civilization) had a complete script." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformed_Egyptian)

As I see these so called examples, it immediately brings to my mind some type of shorthand that JS made up to fool many, which he certainly did. One needs to remember that not a lot of people during the early 1800's had much if any schooling, so it was easy to fool people. If it looked authentic or sounded Biblical then it had to be true. How sad that millions today, and many LDS members are well educated, believe these made up stories. Why? Because again, it is all based on appearances; how they are perceived by their leaders, members of their families, co-workers, neighbors and even the community they live in. These men, especially the GA's make good money, sit on Boards of Directors and have college degrees. What keeps them believing when it is so easy to do some research thanks to the internet.

[alanmolstad]

Moving to the matter of the guy we need to have find our new Mormon Golden Plates.....


As I said before here, the guy we have find the Plates must be carefully chosen.
He has to be the right guy because a lot is riding on him and the things he does.

For instance, if the guy finds the Plates and thinks that they are something every Mormon needs to see, so he goes on Tv with them?, well then we are in big trouble.

Our whole plan to get all the Mormons to believe in the Golden Plates will fall apart at that point as there is no way that our Golden Plates will stand up to a real scientific examination

So as I said, we need the guy to be a real Player.
We need him to have some experience with making a few buck$ off whatever he has on hand.
We need a salesman.
We need a guy who will look at our Mormon Golden Plates and think to himself right away- "How do I turn this into lots of cash and unlimited pontang?"

Now at first I was thinking that we could just find some random type of guy someplace and use him.
But the more I have thought about the matter the more I have come to believe that the guy who finds our Golden Plates has to be in on the plan from the very beginning.

The guy has to know from the start that our plates are totally FAKE because we need him to keep the Golden Plates out of the bright light of a real examination by authorities who are experts in determining the age and merit of such archaeological finds .

Now it would have been nice if he was always kept truly in the dark about the real origin of our Golden Plates because that would allow him to p*** a lie-detector test and be completely honest about how he come to find the Golden plates.

But we are going to need him to act in a manner that is very "crazy" in that we cant have him showing the plates to just anyone!
We need him to hide them from people.
We need him to keep the Golden Plates under wraps.

So this means that right from the start, the guy who finds the Plates and tells people about them, has to be in on the plan from the beginning.
He has to have a personal interest in making sure the truth about the Plates never gets out.
He has to make sure that not even old school friends or neighbors that drop by his house are not even allowed to see the plates.

The other thing is, that it would make everything a lot simpler if the guy who finds the Mormon Golden Plates, was actually also the same guy who made them in the first place.


This would make motivating him to keep the secret a lot more easy.

If the finder was also the only guy who knew that the Mormon Plates were fake, (and that he made them), then he would work all the harder to make sure the truth never came out about them.