different yet in union.

[alanmolstad]

How was I saved?

What is the chain of events?

Who did what?....Who did what first?

Now personally I never had an issue with the means of salvation that men receive....but there are a few of us that really get themselves in a bunch over the question of "Freewill vs God's sovereignty" ?

But I'm not bible scholar, however I can tell you how I look at the question and how it works that there are two different points of view on the issue, both are very different, yet both work hand-in-hand with each other and are in union.


Its like-
You are the p***enger on a large ship.
you have the right to walk around the deck of the ship in any direction you want.
Clockwise, counter clockwise, it makes NO DIFFERENCE!.

The ship is not effected by your freewill ....the ship is not challenged by allowing you this amount of freewill to decided for yourself what direction you want to walk around the ship.

and...regardless of what direction you pick to walk, the real direction that the ship of sailing is totally unaffected!.

Who gave you this freedom to decide what direction to walk?.....the Skipper of the ship.

The Skipper is always the guy in full control of the direction of the ship.
The Skipper's word is LAW on the ship....

The Skipper's control of the ship is not in the slightest bit threatened by the freewill of a p***enger to walk whatever direction around the deck he wants.....






That is what my salvation is like, and how my freewill works hand-in-hand with the lord's sovereignty.

[alanmolstad]

Now, we are going to talk about the 2 different points of view I talked about...


1st as seen from my point of view as a p***enger, I have freewill.

I decide for myself if I want to walk around the deck.

No person tells me what to do...the direction I pick to walk in is only my own decision.
No giant hand from above controls my actions....

Nothing is set in stone.....nothing is known before it happens.

[alanmolstad]

Now seen from the point of view of the Skipper.

The ship, the p***engers, and everything, is totally under the Skipper's control.

my actions are always subject to the Skippers will.
I don't do one thing that is outside the Skipper's authority.

the freedom of a p***enger to walk around the deck is only allowed because the Skipper allows it.

The direction the p***enger walks on the deck does not change the direction of the ship the p***enger sails on.

If the Skipper has decided that the p***enger will get to a port at such and such a date, that's the law and the freedom of the p***enger to walk around the deck does noting to interfere with this.

the p***enger can walk to the left, or to the right, it does not matter, for this does not change the time the Skipper has set for the ship to get where its going.....

[alanmolstad]

What does this all mean then?


It means that I have freewill....and yet my freewill is never a threat to the Lord's sovereignty.

[alanmolstad]

So thats how it works with the question of our salvation.

We have freewill.
The Bible tells us that unless we repent and draw close to God we will die in our sins.
The Lord instructed his church to go into all the world and make Disciples...

Because we cant see men's hearts, we must look and judge people by their works.

If a person asks if someone is a Christian?..I would have to judge their faith by the works that show in the person's life.
Do they belong to a good christian church?
Are they baptized?
Do they share their faith in such a way as to show they know what the faith is?
Do their actions reflect the life of Christ and the way God's Grace changes people?

All these are the normal ways a person looks at to see and judge if another is truly Born Again and a saved christian or not.


We have to use such tools because we dont know the future...we dont know the heart...we dont know what things have happened or will happen in the secret hearts of men.


All these things are true , and yet are not the way God looks at this issue at all.....

[theway]

Now seen from the point of view of the Skipper.

The ship, the p***engers, and everything, is totally under the Skipper's control.

my actions are always subject to the Skippers will.
I don't do one thing that is outside the Skipper's authority.

the freedom of a p***enger to walk around the deck is only allowed because the Skipper allows it.

The direction the p***enger walks on the deck does not change the direction of the ship the p***enger sails on.

If the Skipper has decided that the p***enger will get to a port at such and such a date, that's the law and the freedom of the p***enger to walk around the deck does noting to interfere with this.

the p***enger can walk to the left, or to the right, it does not matter, for this does not change the time the Skipper has set for the ship to get where its going.....
One small problem... What if I wanted to use my free will to jump ship?

[alanmolstad]

Now God looks at the universe differently.


God knows the end from the beginning.
God does not 'find out" stuff...Gid does not learn new things....God does not change from one thing to another.

God does not age, never knows the p***ing of time, does not have a "next" moment.

Therefore, before I was born, God already saw me, knew me, loved me...

And my salvation was never in doubt with God.
God did not have to "hope" I one day believed...God knew this from the beginning as it was always this way in his plan before the universe was created.

Nothing was left to "chance"

Nothing was left for me to "decide"

My salvation was set in stone before the universe was created, and nothing , nothing, nothing can ever change this.

[alanmolstad]

So.....Im like the p***enger on the ship.

I both have freedom to control my actions, yet Im not in control and never will be.


I have the freedom, yet my freedom does not take away the sovereignty of God in even the slightest way.

God's sovereignty takes into account my freewill.

[alanmolstad]

One small problem... What if I wanted to use my free will to jump ship?

Doesnt matter,
The ship (your life/ the universe) still under the authority of the Skipper at all times.

Nothing you do....be a good person, be a bad person, walk to the left, walk to the right NOTHING you will ever do ever takes away the authority of the Skipper over His ship...

in the universe the word of God is ALWAYS law.....


if you disagree?..fine, then do something that takes away God's authority over this universe......try it....
It cant be done!

You will always be under the authority of God no matter how far you travel....no matter how high you climb....or how deep a sea you sink in...there you still will find God there

[theway]

Doesnt matter,
The ship (your life/ the universe) still under the authority of the Skipper at all times.

Nothing you do....be a good person, be a bad person, walk to the left, walk to the right NOTHING you will ever do ever takes away the authority of the Skipper over His ship...

in the universe the word of God is ALWAYS law.....


if you disagree?..fine, then do something that takes away God's authority over this universe......try it....
It cant be done!

You will always be under the authority of God no matter how far you travel....no matter how high you climb....or how deep a sea you sink in...there you still will find God there
My question was related to one's free will.
If the Skipper wants me on the ship but I decide to jump ship, will he take away my free Will and stop me?

[alanmolstad]

again doesnt matter...the actions of men do not cause god to lose authority over the universe....

if they did then you would be worshiping the wrong god.

so we have both freewill and are subject to god's will for our lives.

[alanmolstad]

thus we are commanded to repent and believe, knowing that unless we do we are lost.

And when we do believe and are saved we find that god was in control of our lives the whole time and that our salvation was never for a moment in doubt in his plans

[alanmolstad]

so in my story the ship represents your life.

In your life you are granted many freedoms.
Your freewill is such a thing that god grants you.
You have to have freewill because without it you are unable to return God's love.

But as the ship is your life you also know that we dont set the speed and direction of our ship, but that only God is in the control of such...and so we have to have faith in him and in his love that "He will do what is best"

[alanmolstad]

thats the key thing here....are you able to just allow God to have full control of your life?

are you able to say like *** did in the Bible story about him - "Even if God slays me, yet will I bless His name"*


To trust in a God that is actually in control of the universe, sufferings and all.....that's the challenge of the book of ***






* well , he more or less says this

[theway]

again doesnt matter...the actions of men do not cause god to lose authority over the universe....

if they did then you would be worshiping the wrong god.Once again... I only said we are talking about MY free will not whether God is sovereign.


so we have both freewill and are subject to god's will for our lives.Not so according to you scenario.

I asked that if the skipper's will was that I stay on the ship, yet my will was to jump ship, then whose will wins?

[alanmolstad]

One of the main problems with people seeing how God's authority does not get in the way of man's freewill is due to a very painfull issue that the people have with their personal image of God.

To put it bluntly....they dont trust God.


they dont want God to be in control of the universe because they dont want to think God is in control of their own life, because they dont trust their image of who God is.....


They may have been taught that God is not up to actually running the whole universe?
they may have misgivings about God being too busy to run everything correctly?

or, they may just think God is to small?


But it comes down to a matter of trust, and there just are some people that dont want to trust god with their whole lives.

[alanmolstad]

.

I asked that if the skipper's will was that I stay on the ship, yet my will was to jump ship, then whose will wins?again, nothing you do, ever takes away the sovereignty of God over the universe....NOTHING!.....

in my story what can the p***enger do that takes away the Skippers command of the ship?...NOTHING!


jump in?....nope

Run around the deck nude?.....nope

**** your own head off with a shotgun?.....nope...


The ship stands for your life in my story....and you have many freedoms with it.
We enjoy much freewill.

But the skipper is always the skipper...God is always God....and the universe is always His and his alone.

[alanmolstad]

So my salvation was always ***ured 100%.....nothing was ever left in doubt in God's eyes.

[alanmolstad]

But in my eyes, my salvation was due to the calling I heard and responded to...I heard the knock of the Lord on my heart, and I opened the door of my life to him...

and in that moment I was saved....Not a moment before,

[alanmolstad]

That same knock is heard by others.....perhaps by you too?

I dont know for sure, as i dont know your heart.

I can only show you what i have seen and learned and try to p*** on to others as best i can...

[theway]

One of the main problems with people seeing how God's authority does not get in the way of man's freewill is due to a very painfull issue that the people have with their personal image of God.

To put it bluntly....they dont trust God.


they dont want God to be in control of the universe because they dont want to think God is in control of their own life, because they dont trust their image of who God is.....


They may have been taught that God is not up to actually running the whole universe?
they may have misgivings about God being too busy to run everything correctly?

or, they may just think God is to small?


But it comes down to a matter of trust, and there just are some people that dont want to trust god with their whole lives.Whether or not I trust God was not germane to my question.

[theway]

again, nothing you do, ever takes away the sovereignty of God over the universe....NOTHING!.....

in my story what can the p***enger do that takes away the Skippers command of the ship?...NOTHING!


jump in?....nope

Run around the deck nude?.....nope

**** your own head off with a shotgun?.....nope...


The ship stands for your life in my story....and you have many freedoms with it.
We enjoy much freewill.

But the skipper is always the skipper...God is always God....and the universe is always His and his alone.And who is going to stop me if I want to jump ship?
And who is going to stop me if I want to run around the ship nude?
And who is going to stop me if I want to **** my head off?

It sounds more and more like I have no free will to do what I want to do, and that the Skipper/God is forcing me to bend to His will by taking away mine?

[RealFakeHair]

Whether or not I trust God was not germane to my question.

What do the Huns got to do with the question?

[theway]

What do the Huns got to do with the question?
ger·mane
jərˈmān/
adjective
1.
relevant to a subject under consideration.
"that is not germane to our theme"


Unless of course you were just trying to be clever/funny, if that was the case then you failed yet again.
You need to watch some more Monty Python shows to get a clue.

[RealFakeHair]

ger·mane
jərˈmān/
adjective
1.
relevant to a subject under consideration.
"that is not germane to our theme"


Unless of course you were just trying to be clever/funny, if that was the case then you failed yet again.
You need to watch some more Monty Python shows to get a clue.

Okay then, what does Monty Python got to do with Salvation? Wait, don't tell me.

[alanmolstad]

Whether or not I trust God was not germane to my question.you?....You personaly I have no idea about.

But the fact is that a lot of the people that dont want to believe in a God that can control the universe is because they dont like the idea of a god who could....

In other words....they dont trust their current concept of "God".

[alanmolstad]

It sounds more and more like I have no free will to do what I want to do, and that the Skipper/God is forcing me to bend to His will by taking away mine?

Again, from what source does man receive his freewill?..........answer- "God"

So what this means is that God has given onto man a measure of freewill, without it being a threat to God in the slightest way.

This means that as to the question of believing or not, that we are called to believe, and that unless we hear that call, repent and believe, we will remain lost.

God does not force us to believe in Him....God stands at the door and knocks.


This is why Jesus sent his men out into the world to teach and make believers of men.
Because unless we go preaching, the lost remain lost.

[theway]

Okay then, what does Monty Python got to do with Salvation? Wait, don't tell me.Really???
Have you not seen Monty Python's The Meaning of Life either..... You poor kid.

[alanmolstad]

Unless of course you were just trying to be clever/funny, if that was the case then you failed yet again.
.on this point,,,,I have to agree with you.

a little of him goes a lonnnnnng way

[alanmolstad]

and that is why I say that on the question of how men find salvation, there are two different points of view working in union at the same time.

Both different than the other.

Both correct.


When you look at the salvation of man from the POV of mankind, then you see how we have freewill

but when you look at the same question from God's point of view, then you see how all things are under the command of God and were always part of His plan where none were lost from before the world was made.

[theway]

Again, from what source does man receive his freewill?..........answer- "God"

So what this means is that God has given onto man a measure of freewill, without it being a threat to God in the slightest way.

This means that as to the question of believing or not, that we are called to believe, and that unless we hear that call, repent and believe, we will remain lost.

God does not force us to believe in Him....God stands at the door and knocks.


This is why Jesus sent his men out into the world to teach and make believers of men.
Because unless we go preaching, the lost remain lost.LOL.... Oh so now I'm reduced to just "a measure of freewill"

Begs the question... Is there then a level of freewill which could override God?

[alanmolstad]

so man has freewill .....

yes, it's limited.
yes it's what makes us able to return God's love.....for without freewill we are robots.

but at the same time I and filled with joy to learn and understand that before the universe was started 14 or more billion years ago, that even before all things, God had decided that I would be saved and nothing would place this in doubt.



I rest from worry, for my salvation was never in doubt with my lord...
He was always in full control from before the big bang and on to the very last moment of time.

[alanmolstad]

LOL.... Oh so now I'm reduced to just "a measure of freewill"

Begs the question... Is there then a level of freewill which could override God?nope....
be like the question of God making a rock so big he cant lift it...

Some people asked me "Can your God do anything?"
My answer is that "God can do only the things that are within His nature"

"oh , so your god is weak and cant do everything?..LOL"

"My God cant act against his own nature"


The freewill we have is a gift.
the gift is from God who controls all the universe.

God cant lose his authority..If he could then that would be acting against god's nature..if he could then he would not be the true god and we would need to find another

[RealFakeHair]

nope....
be like the question of God making a rock so big he cant lift it...

Some people asked me "Can your God do anything?"
My answer is that "God can do only the things that are within His nature"

"oh , so your god is weak and cant do everything?..LOL"

"My God cant act against his own nature"


The freewill we have is a gift.

the gift is from God who controls all the universe.

I look at it as a catch 22. Yes we have freewill, but God knows our choice, before the world was created.

[alanmolstad]

I look at it as a catch 22. Yes we have freewill, but God knows our choice, before the world was created.


Good point to bring up RFhair,
But, keep in mind that God does not just sit back and foresee our world...

God is ACTIVE.....God predestined us...

Our salvation is an active work of God in our lives......

[RealFakeHair]

on this point,,,,I have to agree with you.

a little of him goes a lonnnnnng way

That hurt too!

[RealFakeHair]

Good point to bring up RFhair,
But, keep in mind that God does not just sit back and foresee our world...

God is ACTIVE.....God predestined us...

Our salvation is an active work of God in our lives......

Yeah, I am predestine to win the lottery when I am 84 years old

[alanmolstad]

so God is not trapped in time, thus time has no hold on God and so God does not have to cheat and "check the back of the book" to see how things turn out.

God knows all there is to know.
So before the universe was created God already knew I would be saved.
But God also knew that my salvation was not just an accident, nor was it ever in doubt.

God knows that my salvation is ONLY the direct result of His Predestination of it happening...

God's plan from the beginning took into account all things, including my freewill.
Without His active work in my life, my salvation would never happen.

and an important part of my salvation was and is my freewill...and always was.
My freewill was also predestined.

[alanmolstad]

That hurt too!You'll live

[alanmolstad]

a lot of people find it hard to understand what I'm talking about when I say that its a matter of two different points of view that are "different" yet in "agreement"???

Im going to try to make this more easy to understand how it is true.



The main problem is that it is hard to see things from what would be God's point of view, as no one actually knows what that is like..LOL

But we can make use of many mental images to get a small grasp of this issue, and that may help us understand the point I'm making here.

So, here is an image for your mind that may help you get to the heart of what I'm sharing.



We are held by time and space.
Our bodies, our thinking, are always limited to being about one moment of time, and in one point in space.

But God is not limited as we are.
God is not held by time.
God is not limited to one point in space.

Thus there is a big difference when we look at all of history,(both the past , the now, and the future) and when God himself looks at all of history.

We are held in time, so when we think of the past or the future it is like we page-back in a book or page-forward in the book of time.
If we want to deal with things in the future, we think of opening the book near the back to see what happens later.

If we want to think about stuff that has already happened, we turn pages in our mental book of time to review the things that have already happened.

So in many ways, when we think about the past or the future we use a mental book to page forward or backward.


But when God views the past, the "now" , or the future He does so as one who is not bound to any such concepts.
God is outside time's hold.

So in many ways, when God looks at all of history its more like when we look at a finished painting, like the Mona Lisa.

There is no start to the painting...
You don't page-back, you don't page-ahead to view parts of the finished painting.

Rather what you do is take in the whole of the painting at once.

Yes, you can move in for a closer look at different brush strokes, but the painting itself has no timeline to be viewed.
You don't start looking at a painting like the Mona Lisa by starting at the top left-hand corner, scanning across the top, then dropping down a 1/4 inch and scanning across that next section.

You view the Mona Lisa by taking it all in.....each part of the painting appears at the same time....no past, no future.



In a way, that is how God views history too...

[alanmolstad]

Now that we see how God looks at time, we can also see how He looks at what we think of as being the "unwritten future"


When we look at the future we don't have a clue whats going to happen.
From our point of view, the future is unwritten.

From God's point of view, the future is as set in stone as the past is to us.
The future is unknown to us because it is out of our reach.
We humans cant see the future, we cant control it because we are always trapped here in front of the future by time.

But God is not trapped by time.
So in the eyes of God, the future is not only known by his foresight, it's experienced by him as much as God experiences our "now".

God is already in the future as much as He is with us right here in our "now"

So in God's eyes, all that will ever be, was known to him from before it was begun.

And, (here is the part about our salvation) this means that before the universe was created 14 Billion years ago, God already knew my eternal state.
God knew I was going to be a saved Christian.

But God did not just "page-ahead" and happen to notice I became saved on my own.

NO!

God is active always!
God is always fully involved throughout all time.
Thus God knew that my salvation was not just an accident, but that if left on my own God knew that I was eternal LOST!.
So this means that God knew from the beginning that my salvation was the direct result of HIS work!

God deserves all the credit for my salvation.
My salvation was always in God's plan from the beginning.......it had to be or else it would never happen!


So then this is what I know, that before God made the universe he yet loved me and designed me and predestined my whole life and my future so that I would fulfill His plans for me.


This is why it says that he whom God foreknew he also predestined...

[alanmolstad]

But humans are trapped in time.
We don't know the future.

And this is very real....

This is why we are told that unless we repent and believe we remain lost.
It's because we are mortal.

This is why we in the church are sent out into the world to save sinners and be the light to the world.
It's because we are all mortal.
We are trapped in time.
We don't know the future.

From our point of view, all of the future is "unwritten"
Nothing is set in stone.

This is why the people that we preach to and baptize are truly saved....
It's because we are mortal.
And mortal things are born, they die, they decide things...and the things they decide matter.


We have freewill.
It's very limited freewill to be sure, as its always within the gift granted us by our lord,
But it is none the less true freewill.

Our freewill allows us to decide things....it allows us to give our hearts to another out of love.
But freewill is also expensive.

God knew the price He would have to pay for granting us freewill.
But God considered us worth it.