Fifteen Million really?

[James Banta]

Does submitting to LDS baptism make someone LDS? Or is there more to being LDS, other than taking a 2 second bath? After all don't we get enough faith without works is dead talk from our LDS friend here on the forum?

If there is more to really being LDS than being baptized the Salt Lake Tribune has shown us the real numbers for LDS membership. By LDS sources there are over 15 million mormons today alive in the world.. But are there really that many?

LDS activity rates

U.S. » 40 percent

Mexico » 20 to 25 percent

Brazil » 25 percent

Chile » 12 percent

New Zealand » 40 to 45 percent

Tonga » 30 to 35 percent

Germany » 25 percent

Ireland » 35 percent

Japan » 15 to 20 percent

Nigeria » 50 to 55 percent

Source: “Reaching the Nations: International Church Growth Almanac 2014”

Ok giving the LDS the benefit of the doubt I will use the lower estimation of 15 million members and the highest level of percent of activity from these places.. Here comes the math..

Adding 40
25
25
12
45
35
25
35
20
55
Produces a sum of 317 divided by 10, the number countries included in this list, gives a generous 32% of baptized people showing the fruits of really being LDS.. That makes the true membership numbers of the LDS not 15 million but in reality only 4.8 Million.

The numbers reported by the LDS church is an attempt at Bandwagon style advertizing and has no hold on the real numbers of the membership of the church.. IHS jim

[Erundur]

Does submitting to LDS baptism make someone LDS? Or is there more to being LDS, other than taking a 2 second bath?
Yes. Being baptized and confirmed makes one a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.


By LDS sources there are over 15 million mormons today alive in the world.. But are there really that many?
Yes.

[James Banta]

Yes. Being baptized and confirmed makes one a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.


Yes.

Does matter if they believe, Doesn't matter if the attend.. All you have to have is a name on your books.. If that is all you require your membership numbers are as worthless as your extrabiblical teachings.. IHS jim

[neverending]

Yes. Being baptized and confirmed makes one a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.


Yes.

Seems dishonest to claim 15 million members when only 32% actually attend church and who knows how many of those 32% have a temple recommend and can be considered active members. Seems all the LDS Church cares about is numbers and bragging about those. What your church should be concerned about is why the percentage of members not attending church is so low. HMMMM....could it be that many who live in third world countries joined only for the fact that the LDS Church is a wealthy church and they were looking to take advantage of that and use the church? Seems many who are of the Catholic faith join and then the next sunday they're off to M***.

[RealFakeHair]

Yes. Being baptized and confirmed makes one a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.


Yes.
Findem, dunkem, and forgetem!

[Erundur]

Seems dishonest to claim 15 million members when only 32% actually attend church and who knows how many of those 32% have a temple recommend and can be considered active members.
How in the world could that be dishonest?


Seems all the LDS Church cares about is numbers and bragging about those.
And yet the LDS Church didn't start this thread. Seems to me it's the antis who obsess over numbers.


What your church should be concerned about is why the percentage of members not attending church is so low.
The Church of Jesus Christ is always concerned about less active members.

[RealFakeHair]

How in the world could that be dishonest?


And yet the LDS Church didn't start this thread. Seems to me it's the antis who obsess over numbers.


The Church of Jesus Christ is always concerned about less active members.

Numbers, numbers, who need them stinkin numbers?
If you ever went on a mission then you know it is always about them numbers!
Lets say even if you were not that into numbers those higher up were.

[Erundur]

Numbers, numbers, who need them stinkin numbers?
Numbers are very useful.


If you ever went on a mission then you know it is always about them numbers!
Them numbers are only important because they represent people.

[RealFakeHair]

Numbers are very useful.


Them numbers are only important because they represent people.

I really don't care if LDSinc. is obsessed with numbers. Many organizations are obsessed in one degree or another.
The way I look at it when it comes to Salvation of a soul only they and God of the Holy Bible knows.
As for LDSinc. All the numbers in the world aint goin to save you. Belonging to the LDSinc. And a member in good standing aint goin to save you, but most of all having your faith in Joseph Smith jr. imaginary mind gods aint goin to save you.
However there is the God and His Son Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible just waiting for you.. Amen, and Amen, and no charge for the sermon too.

[James Banta]

How in the world could that be dishonest?


And yet the LDS Church didn't start this thread. Seems to me it's the antis who obsess over numbers.


The Church of Jesus Christ is always concerned about less active members.

I have been in many a Christian churches leadership meetings. In all of them I have been in membership number were never bought up.. Yet in each semiannual general Conference of the LDS church a big point is made as to the "growth" of the church.. Where did you think I go the number 15 Million? It was from your church conference. As for the report as to how many real members the LDS church there are that came from a report out of the Salt Lake Tribune.. There is no anti anything used in these reports only facts that it would seem the LDS take exception to.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Numbers are very useful.


Them numbers are only important because they represent people.

And yet we have member in my church that haven't been in an LDS Ward house in over 15 years and still that have never had any contact with the local Ward or missionaries in all that time.. Sure looks to me like the LDS church really is concerned over it's "LOST SHEEP"

Not everyone is as noisy as I am, I made myself known as I left the LDS church many just stop going.. IHS jim

[neverending]

How in the world could that be dishonest?


And yet the LDS Church didn't start this thread. Seems to me it's the antis who obsess over numbers.


The Church of Jesus Christ is always concerned about less active members.

Now, that is a bold face lie! When I and James became inactive, no one gave a rat's behind....NO ONE! We were ignored and when our youngest child was blessed, we never even got a certificate of Blessing even though I called the Ward Clerk to ask for it. So, what do you say now?

[neverending]

Numbers are very useful.


Them numbers are only important because they represent people.

Numbers of members who don't stay active do they? Members who's only desire is to join a rich American Church, and they don't care about the doctrines, just what they can get out of the Church. Very sad isn't it?

[alanmolstad]

[SIZE=3]Now, that is a bold face lie! .......E]
use of the word "lie" is not wise.
It could be considered a type of personal attack....

i would refer you to the rules about it if there is a question

[theway]

Does submitting to LDS baptism ke someone LDS? Or is there more to being LDS, other than taking a 2 second bath? After all don't we get enough faith without works is dead talk from our LDS friend here on the forum?

If there is more to really being LDS than being baptized the Salt Lake Tribune has shown us the real numbers for LDS membership. By LDS sources there are over 15 million mormons today alive in the world.. But are there really that many?

LDS activity rates

U.S. » 40 percent

Mexico » 20 to 25 percent

Brazil » 25 percent

Chile » 12 percent

New Zealand » 40 to 45 percent

Tonga » 30 to 35 percent

Germany » 25 percent

Ireland » 35 percent

Japan » 15 to 20 percent

Nigeria » 50 to 55 percent

Source: “Reaching the Nations: International Church Growth Almanac 2014”

Ok giving the LDS the benefit of the doubt I will use the lower estimation of 15 million members and the highest level of percent of activity from these places.. Here comes the math..

Adding 40
25
25
12
45
35
25
35
20
55
Produces a sum of 317 divided by 10, the number countries included in this list, gives a generous 32% of baptized people showing the fruits of really being LDS.. That makes the true membership numbers of the LDS not 15 million but in reality only 4.8 Million.

The numbers reported by the LDS church is an attempt at Bandwagon style advertizing and has no hold on the real numbers of the membership of the church.. IHS jim
It all depends on what criteria you are using to determine activity rates.
All things being equal Mormins have the highest activity rate of any major religion (except fot maybe JWs)On the other hand Evangelicals only count those who show up, that being the case you would get a near 100% turnout each week.
The largest Christian Church has the lowest activity rates with Evangelical nondenominationals following close behind.

[Phoenix]

[SIZE=3]Seems dishonest to claim 15 million members when only 32% actually attend church
That is a false statement. What would be dishonest would be to claim that the church has 15 million ACTIVE members. Please try to avoid making false statements.


and who knows how many of those 32% have a temple recommend
That is totally irrelevant to the issue of how many members there are. Maybe you do not know this about the LDS church, but it is quite possible to not have a temple recommend but still be a member.


What your church should be concerned about is why the percentage of members not attending church is so low.
Maybe the demoralizing attacks from anti-Mormons are part of the reason. If you are concerned about the low activity rate of Mormons, are you willing to stop attacking them?

I did not think so.

[Phoenix]

Now, that is a bold face lie! When I and James became inactive, no one gave a rat's behind....NO ONE!
How do you know that no one cared? Maybe some people cared, but you had given them the impression that you wanted them to leave you alone so they did. How many times did you contact them and ask them to stop by and see how you were doing? I am not always a good guesser, but my guess is "zero."

By the way, why did you and James become inactive? Did you stop giving a rat's behind about the church?


We were ignored and when our youngest child was blessed, we never even got a certificate of Blessing even though I called the Ward Clerk to ask for it. So, what do you say now?
What was the clerk's reply when you asked for it? How many times did you ask? Did the clerk have it ready for you but you never showed up at church to get it from him?

[neverending]

use of the word "lie" is not wise.
It could be considered a type of personal attack....

i would refer you to the rules about it if there is a question
Alan, look, who made you moderator of this site? You come here and do everything possible to run the show and you of course have an opinion on every topic. If you don't like how I respond to a post, then report me! If not, then live with it!

[alanmolstad]

If you play by the rules that everyone else is keeping, then you do well and will not get in trouble.
But if a person shows that they cant play by the rules they become an embarr***ment and subject to discipline.

I again point you to the rules that deal with both the names of posters to use, as well as the use of the word "lie" on the message board.

[Erundur]

Where did you think I go the number 15 Million?
I ***umed you got it here (http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/facts-and-statistics/).


As for the report as to how many real members the LDS church there are that came from a report out of the Salt Lake Tribune..
Now how in the world would the Salt Lake Tribune know better than the church how many members there are? Your statement is false because the Trib was only claiming to report active members.

[Erundur]

We were ignored and when our youngest child was blessed, we never even got a certificate of Blessing even though I called the Ward Clerk to ask for it.
Wait, how could you bless your youngest child if everyone was ignoring you?


So, what do you say now?
I say you need to get over your hatred.

[James Banta]

I ***umed you got it here (http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/facts-and-statistics/).


Now how in the world would the Salt Lake Tribune know better than the church how many members there are? Your statement is false because the Trib was only claiming to report active members.

No I got it from listening to conference but that looks like an official site so it is just as good..

Go back and read the OP the Trib shows their source which I included. Seems that the church will hang on to everyone even if they walk away for years.. It's not about spreading the gospel it's about nothing but numbers.. Even is the numbers are falsely inflated they use them because they have names of people that they had at one time baptized.. No christian church I know of cares about numbers the way mormonism does as to hold onto members when it is clear that they no longer believe the teachings mormonism presents.. Tell me is someone really LDS if they deny that Smith is a prophet and that the BofM is a lie?

In December 2003 Ensign article en***led "Joseph Smith: Restorer of Truth," Harold B. Lee said "No man can accept Jesus Christ as the Savior of the world, no man can accept this as His church, the Church of Jesus Christ, unless he can accept Joseph Smith as God's mouthpiece and the restorer of His work in these latter days."

So what of those that millions that deny Smith as God's prophet even though their names remain on the rolls. Are they really LDS and worthy of all the blessings of the church? Maybe looking at real active members is really the only real measure of who is LDS and who is not.. IHS jim

[Erundur]

Go back and read the OP the Trib shows their source which I included.
Why, what do you think I missed the first time?


Tell me is someone really LDS if they deny that Smith is a prophet and that the BofM is a lie?
I guess that depends on what you mean by "really LDS," but a living person is a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints if they have been baptized and confirmed, and have not resigned their membership or been excommunicated.

[neverending]

Wait, how could you bless your youngest child if everyone was ignoring you?


I say you need to get over your hatred.

There are many reasons for my negative feelings towards Mormonism & Mormons. I will not go into them because I have in the past and the memories are to hurtful. It was after my youngest that we began to be ignored, why? I have no explanation for it, for it makes no sense at all. I taught Sunday School, Primary, was Primary Secretary and of course a Visiting Teacher but none of those things matter. We lived and still live in a Ward where people are snotty and so unfriendly it's not funny. At one point, I tried going back to church only to be ignored again. The Bishop was cold and unwelcoming so I say, "the HELL" with all of these so called members of a church filled with lies and who have no idea what it is like to truly live a Christ like life; it is all a put on so they can look good to others. Enough said but I will continue to point out the lies that your church teaches til my dying day.

[Zeus]

There are many reasons for my negative feelings towards Mormonism & Mormons. I will not go into them because I have in the past and the memories are to hurtful. It was after my youngest that we began to be ignored, why? I have no explanation for it, for it makes no sense at all. I taught Sunday School, Primary, was Primary Secretary and of course a Visiting Teacher but none of those things matter. We lived and still live in a Ward where people are snotty and so unfriendly it's not funny. At one point, I tried going back to church only to be ignored again. The Bishop was cold and unwelcoming so I say, "the HELL" with all of these so called members of a church filled with lies.....



and who have no idea what it is like to truly live a Christ like life; it is all a put on so they can look good to others. Enough said but I will continue to point out the lies that your church teaches til my dying day.

Is holding a grudge against a group of people, harboring negative and bitter feelings toward them, "truly living a Christ like life"?

Aren't you guilty of not being Christlike by holding such views of others and judging their lives as being non-Christlike?

[RealFakeHair]

Is holding a grudge against a group of people, harboring negative and bitter feelings toward them, "truly living a Christ like life"?

Aren't you guilty of not being Christlike by holding such views of others and judging their lives as being non-Christlike?

I think going over to the ex-mormon recovery board and reading some of the exit stories might put things in perspective.
For many reasons people who leave the LDSinc. Leave with emotional and spiritual scars.
It is not easy to look into the personal mirror, and not reflect back on a life of lies, abuse, and spiritual deception. There are in many cases family breakup, work and financial lost, but worse of all a spiritual mistrust of one and true God of the Holy Bible and His Son.

[Zeus]

I think going over to the ex-mormon recovery board and reading some of the exit stories might put things in perspective.
For many reasons people who leave the LDSinc. Leave with emotional and spiritual scars.
It is not easy to look into the personal mirror, and not reflect back on a life of lies, abuse, and spiritual deception. There are in many cases family breakup, work and financial lost, but worse of all a spiritual mistrust of one and true God of the Holy Bible and His Son.

I can understand ex-LDS who have left religion and belief in God altogether to not necessarily life a Christlike life.

I am addressing neverending, who is ex-LDS, but has a belief in God and Jesus, who is here to tell others to follow Jesus and be saved. Someone who is advocating the following of Jesus should be expected to be doing it themself in order to have credibility. Do you agree?

[RealFakeHair]

I can understand ex-LDS who have left religion and belief in God altogether to not necessarily life a Christlike life.

I am addressing neverending, who is ex-LDS, but has a belief in God and Jesus, who is here to tell others to follow Jesus and be saved. Someone who is advocating the following of Jesus should be expected to be doing it themself in order to have credibility. Do you agree?

I don't know her physical or spiritual wounds from her time in the LDSinc, but from the many stories told to me and the ones I have witnessed, I can-not judge her. I can only imagine how I might react to such abuse. I could only hope I could be more forgiving.

[Zeus]

I don't know her physical or spiritual wounds from her time in the LDSinc, but from the many stories told to me and the ones I have witnessed, I can-not judge her. I can only imagine how I might react to such abuse. I could only hope I could be more forgiving.

No judgment here. I think it's important to point out that if someone is a Christian and a follower of Jesus Christ, for them to hold anger, bitterness, and ill-feelings toward persons or an entire group of people, and to chastize those people as not being "Christ like", it calls into question how that person can make such an accusation given the very thing they are doing is an***hetical to Jesus' teachings (ie. "not Christ like")

[alanmolstad]

its ok to hate Mormonism.....its ok to hate what Smith did to people.

The average Mormon is not to blame so we dont hate such people...we love them...thats why we are here,,,,


A Christian has to always keep in mind that "They are here not by accident"
The fact that the Lord is busy, and has done the ground work already in getting people in contact with you.

And the fact is, that we witness by being who we are...it's not with the Bible verses that draw people close to our Lord, its the Bible they read in our "selves"....thats the thing that reaches out to them the most...

Our Christ-like-ness.....that is the true Christian "testimony" that we share .

[RealFakeHair]

No judgment here. I think it's important to point out that if someone is a Christian and a follower of Jesus Christ, for them to hold anger, bitterness, and ill-feelings toward persons or an entire group of people, and to chastize those people as not being "Christ like", it calls into question how that person can make such an accusation given the very thing they are doing is an***hetical to Jesus' teachings (ie. "not Christ like")

I remember what Christ did when He ran the money changers out of the temple. I think perhaps she is just chastizeing devils out of the temple. There are many ways to be "Christ Like" without the worldly norms.

[alanmolstad]

did he do that?...I will have to check...i remember the story differenly, but its been a while from the last time i read the story...

[Zeus]

I remember what Christ did when He ran the money changers out of the temple. I think perhaps she is just chastizeing devils out of the temple. There are many ways to be "Christ Like" without the worldly norms.

Poor ****ogy.

If you can show us that Jesus harbored bitterness and anger towards others that allegedly offended Him in His past, you might have a case.

But as I recall, even Jesus taught to bless them that persecute you, to turn the other cheek, and even to forgive them for they know not what they do.

[RealFakeHair]

did he do that?...I will have to check...i remember the story differenly, but its been a while from the last time i read the story...

Well, my memory is just as bad, but I think Jesus looked more like me then the movie star picture. Just my thought.

[alanmolstad]

Well, my memory is just as bad, but I think Jesus looked more like me then the movie star picture. Just my thought.

I remember he drove out the people buying and selling...and he made a whip and drove out the animals...For the money changers he overturned their tables.

from a stand point of how to do this, you would drive out all the people who were there to get the correct animal when you drove out the animals...and when you did that you naturally would see the owners of each of the animals running after their stock to get them under control again...

For the money changers the moment Jesus flipped over their tables it must have started a mad dash for them to pick the scattered money and paperwork before it was lost...
I think that is why I dont think Jesus is said to drive out the money changers as that would be hard to do when them down on their hands and knees picking up coins at the time......

I dont think the money-changers were in the mood for leaving right then...LOL, whereas the guys who owned the animals were likely running out the gate after their livestock.

But this is just a guess....

[RealFakeHair]

I remember he drove out the people buying and selling...and he made a whip and drove out the animals...For the money changers he overturned their tables.

from a stand point of how to do this, you would drive out all the people who were there to get the correct animal when you drove out the animals...and when you did that you naturally would see the owners of each of the animals running after their stock to get them under control again...

For the money changers the moment Jesus flipped over their tables it must have started a mad dash for them to pick the scattered money and paperwork before it was lost...
I think that is why I dont think Jesus is said to drive out the money changers as that would be hard to do when them down on their hands and knees picking up coins at the time......


But this is just a guess....
I'd say he was pretty ****ed.

[RealFakeHair]

Poor ****ogy.

If you can show us that Jesus harbored bitterness and anger towards others that allegedly offended Him in His past, you might have a case.

But as I recall, even Jesus taught to bless them that persecute you, to turn the other cheek, and even to forgive them for they know not what they do.

Never, never question my greatness, you hear!

[alanmolstad]

I'd say he was pretty ****ed.
The lesson to take from the story comes a bit later, when after all that anger and fuss, Jesus went right back to calmly teaching telling stories...

So we are to believe that Jesus was a man of p***ion,,,he was not afraid to get angry...God gave us our hearts and we are designed by God to get angry...

But God also shows us the correct use of anger in the human heart, the reason for it...And in Jesus we see that the reason is to motivate!

Jesus channeled his p***ion into action.

let us all learn to do that...

[RealFakeHair]

The lesson to take from the story comes a bit later, when after all that anger and fuss, Jesus went right back to calmly teaching telling stories...

We don't know that. Maybe he sent a few bolts of lightening over King Herod head or something.

[James Banta]

Why, what do you think I missed the first time?


I guess that depends on what you mean by "really LDS," but a living person is a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints if they have been baptized and confirmed, and have not resigned their membership or been excommunicated.


I was at Sandy Baptist Church with couple that didn't think that resigning their membership in the LDS church was important.. They were there for several years even accepting Christian baptized in the time they were with us. Were they still LDS because they hadn't resigned nor had they been exed? I say they they were not.. They had turned away from the finite gods of mormonism and to the eternal God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit of the Bible.. These are those I spoke of earlier that hadn't been visited by they leaders of the Ward or the Stake in years.. It's all about numbers not about seeking to aid a person in coming to Christ..

The quote I gave from the Trib had a reference to the source of the information that used.. Isn't that what you missed? IHS jim

[Erundur]

Were they still LDS because they hadn't resigned nor had they been exed? I say they they were not..
I guess that depends on what you mean by "still LDS," but a living person is a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints if they have been baptized and confirmed, and have not resigned their membership or been excommunicated.

[neverending]

Is holding a grudge against a group of people, harboring negative and bitter feelings toward them, "truly living a Christ like life"?

Aren't you guilty of not being Christlike by holding such views of others and judging their lives as being non-Christlike?

When Mormons can stop judging non-Mormons, and stop looking down their noses at non-members and start treating non-Mormons with more respect, then maybe I will stop having negative feelings for the LDS Church. I will never stop having negative feelings for your doctrines since they are lies and lead people down the wide path which leads to destruction. A belief in a false god and Jesus Christ for starters. It would go a long way if those who treated me so badly were to come and ask forgiveness but that is impossible. So, please since you've not walked in my shoes, have no idea how deep my feelings go, then for me this subject is over. My life was ruined because of Mormonism.

[Zeus]

When Mormons can stop judging non-Mormons, and stop looking down their noses at non-members and start treating non-Mormons with more respect, then maybe I will stop having negative feelings for the LDS Church. I will never stop having negative feelings for your doctrines since they are lies and lead people down the wide path which leads to destruction. A belief in a false god and Jesus Christ for starters. It would go a long way if those who treated me so badly were to come and ask forgiveness but that is impossible. So, please since you've not walked in my shoes, have no idea how deep my feelings go, then for me this subject is over. My life was ruined because of Mormonism.

If you have the true Jesus, why do you go against His teachings about forgiveness and turning the other cheek toward a group who you believe doesn't even know the real Jesus? Doesn't that give you pause?

Who is more required to follow Jesus? The people that don't know Him or the people that do know him? If you have been wronged by people that you don't think know Jesus, shouldn't you be the one to take the high road and be the example to them as the person who does know the real Jesus? If not, how are you any different than a nonbeliever?

[alanmolstad]

If not, how are you any different than a nonbeliever?
I would answer that as a Christian Im forgiven....but I would never claim to be "better" than a person that is Lost.

I'm different this is true, but only due to the relationship I enjoy with God.



This is why we see Christians suffering from the same personal flaws we see so common among the lost.
The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.


Saint Paul talks about this war within even the best Christian at Romans 7: 13-25

So the failings of Christians are understandable.
But our faith is not in our own ability to overcome such things, but rests in the fact that even if we fail there is No CONDEMNATION for us.

We do not suffer a loss of friendship with the Lord because while sin may remain in our lives, God's Grace remains even more in our Lives!

[James Banta]

I guess that depends on what you mean by "still LDS," but a living person is a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints if they have been baptized and confirmed, and have not resigned their membership or been excommunicated.

Then that means that people as I have described are still LDS ay least in your mind even if then deny Smith as a prophet, deny that the LDS church is the one true church and have joined another church.. If a person that calls themselves a christian and leaves their church to become LDS they no longer a member of their old church and I would say never were truly Christian..

The LDS church will never take disciplinary action against anyone that leaves the church behind to join another church as long as they don't make any noise about the LDS church being false.. They would just as soon such have people stayed on their rolls to bolster their membership numbers. problem for the LDS church is more and more members have been resigning their membership than ever before.. It is such a m***ive number doing so that the LDS church had to create an special office to handle those requests to have membership dissolved (Member Records Division, LDS Church)..

Thank you for pointing out that Christian who were LDS and haven't yet resigned are still considered to be members by the LDS church.. They need to immediately resign that membership so that they don't add to the BANDWAGON ADVERTIZING the LDS church uses in their membership to sustain.. I know most Christian will say "If I don't attend their meetings and never give them a penny of ***hing or any other offering then I am not LDS". We can thank Erundur for pointing out that your membership in their church means so much to them that they will never drop you from their membership roll unless you insist that they do so..

Look at this www page to see your rights in this matter and how to write your resignation letter and where to send it..

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/nameremovalletter.htm

IHS jim

[Erundur]

Then that means that people as I have described are still LDS ay least in your mind even if then deny Smith as a prophet, deny that the LDS church is the one true church and have joined another church..
If by "still LDS" you mean that the person is still a member of the church, then that is correct in your mind.


If a person that calls themselves a christian and leaves their church to become LDS they no longer a member of their old church and I would say never were truly Christian..
Yes, this is a Protestant shunning practice.


The LDS church will never take disciplinary action against anyone that leaves the church behind to join another church
Is joining another church an excommunicable offense in your church?


They would just as soon such have people stayed on their rolls to bolster their membership numbers.
Now you're projecting.

[RealFakeHair]

If by "still LDS" you mean that the person is still a member of the church, then that is correct in your mind.


Yes, this is a Protestant shunning practice.


Is joining another church an excommunicable offense in your church?


Now you're projecting.

Let's see, there are a billion catholics, billion moslims, 500 million or so Angelina, 500+ million pentecostals, millions of baptist, and we're here debating LDSinc. membership numbers? I look at it this way, 15 million or so lost souls is more important!

[alanmolstad]

If a person that calls themselves a christian and leaves their church to become LDS they no longer a member of their old church and I would say never were truly Christian..

This is correct and what the Scriptures teach us.
That had they been truly Christian they would have remained, but because they left it was shown to us that they were never part of us from the beginning.

This is like Judas who was with the Lord but was never one of his true believers, and when he left the 12 that night it became then clear to all that he had never been one of the believers.



Thank you for pointing out that Christian who were LDS and haven't yet resigned are still considered to be members by the LDS church.. They need to immediately resign that membership so that they don't add to the BANDWAGON ADVERTIZING the LDS church uses in their membership to sustain..


Very good advice.
Im not sure why a person would not want to make sure they are dropped from the listings?..perhaps they might be afraid of getting visits from other Mormons , or that their family might receive pressure ?...or just lazy?







Look at this www page to see your rights in this matter and how to write your resignation letter and where to send it..

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/nameremovalletter.htm

IHS jim

From time to time this would be a very good thing to bring to everyone's attention, as well as provide the needed information to "lurkers' who visit this site to check out on the sly what people are doing here.

[Phoenix]

This is like Judas who was with the Lord but was never one of his true believers, and when he left the 12 that night it became then clear to all that he had never been one of the believers.
But you agree with the Bible, in calling Judas an apostle up to the time when he betrayed Jesus...correct?
We can't read the mind of every member, and suddenly stop calling them a member when they stop believing. Only God and the defector know when the moment of betrayal occurs. You agree with that, right?

So for any of us to expect a church to read a member's mind and remove them as a member when they stop believing, before they have notified the church that they want their name removed, would be a very irrational thing to expect. Don't you agree?

In fact, if the church did decide to remove a person as a member under the presumption that the person had stopped believing, without that person's written request and approval, wouldn't that be inappropriate? Couldn't the person file a lawsuit and accuse, and ask complaining questions such as "What gives you the right to stop calling me a member, and to take away my membership rights, just because you haven't seen me attending for a few months?" ?


Im not sure why a person would not want to make sure they are dropped from the listings?..perhaps they might be afraid of getting visits from other Mormons , or that their family might receive pressure ?...or just lazy?
Or maybe they want to be part of the "inflated numbers" problem so they can turn around and say "I know for a fact that the church counts some people as members who no longer are believers." Kind of like committing voter fraud, and then complaining about how terrible it is that the electoral system has cases of voter fraud. Of course, probably the only people who would do such a thing would be people who don't like the electoral system, and want to attack it.

[alanmolstad]

But you ......

I think you misunderstood my comments...

I dont actually care what the official Mormon church in Utah or the Jehovah's Witnesses headquarters in Brooklyn or the UPC ( Im not sure what they have. likely some sorta bunker command center?) , does.

I dont give them advice, but rather think I should try my best to offer advice to Christians who may have come out of any number of CULTS and yet might still be listed there.

My advice, (actually it's Jim's advice) would be to be about getting yourself unlisted from the CULT.

I have taken a moment to start a new Forum Topic in case this is something people might be interested in learning about.

[Phoenix]

I think you misunderstood my comments...
I think I understood that you were agreeing with Jim's comments. Was I wrong about that? I posed some questions to you, to help you figure out whether your agreement with him was perhaps ill-advised. All you have to do is answer the questions I asked you, and we will probably know whether I misunderstood you.

So please do so in your next post.


My advice, (actually it's Jim's advice) would be to be about getting yourself unlisted from the CULT.
Getting out of one cult and into its diametrically opposed counterpart may not be a real step upward.

[James Banta]

[Erundur;153428]If by "still LDS" you mean that the person is still a member of the church, then that is correct in your mind.


Yes, this is a Protestant shunning practice.


Is joining another church an excommunicable offense in your church?


Now you're projecting.[/QUOTE]

They are not LDS in my mind.. You just told me that as far as you are concerned that if they were baptized and confirmed by LDS authority, that they are still LDS.. I believe they are Christians and not LDS at all.. But since they have not been exed then they are LDS in your mind..

Shunning? You don't even want to go there.. I have seen more of that in the branch in GF ND, and the Ward here in Sandy, UT that you could ever see in a Christian Church..

Do we excommunicate Christians? NO!!!! That would say we have denied them the salvation Jesus died to purchase for them.. Only the cults would stoop to such a terrible judgement.. See maybe God called them to serve Him in a different place.. Maybe they weren't in a place where they could grow spiritually.. Only in the cults is such a sever action taken toward someone who is trying to find the place they are called to by God..

I am projecting? How? I said the LDS church would rather hold on to people (Names) as long as they can to bolster their membership numbers.. Why else would they overlook removing people from their membership that had joined other churches? We do that.. BUT we don't ex anyone. We just remove their names from our rolls. That has a whole different meaning to a Christian that it does to the LDS, at least I see it that way as you speak so casually about doing excommunication.. IHS jim