How to Remove Your Name from the LDS Records [Archive]

theway

03-07-2014, 07:14 AM

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/nameremovalletttm

http://www.utlm.org/onlinereces/nameremovalletter.htm (http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/namerevalletter.htm)Typical Anti-Mormon nonsense and hypocrical sillness.
Notice how Anti-Mormons are only experts on how to lose you faith, but give no advice on how one is to gain faith.

In fact most of the advice they give you is contradictory, as the following gem from off their link will show you.

"If you do not hear from the Bishop after 30-40 days, write another letter to him insisting he take this action as you instructed, otherwise, you may be forced to seek legal action. You might also threaten that you will start a writing campaign to the newspapers to inform them of the church's control and unfairness in this action."

To start off with a little background I will say that there has NEVER been one case where wrongful termination, excommunication or even nonaction when it comes to disfellowship from a religion has won in a US court. There have been hundreds of attempts and the vast majority have been against nonLDS religions. In fact it is even against the US Cons***ution for the courts to even get involved. The only hope one would have is in proving that harm came when such action against you by the church became puplic. However if you notice from the statement above, they are the ones who tell you that you need to make it puplic, thereby nullifying any hopes you had (no matter how impossiple that is) to winning your case because it was you who made it puplic. It seems they dont even have basic common sense in their wishful thinking over there.

No... if you want to leave, then just leave and depart as friends. Move on with your life and in your walk with God. Take the advice of the Bible and NEVER LOOK BACK. Unless of course when you finnaly come to realize that you have made a mistake, you will then be accepted back with open arms.

alanmolstad

03-07-2014, 08:40 AM

also if any person wants addional help and advice on how to deal with loved ones still caught is Mormonism....you can contact the link .

theway

03-07-2014, 09:44 AM

also if any person wants addional help and advice on how to deal with loved ones still caught is Mormonism....you can contact the link .

Sure.... if you want them to never talk to you again then by all means, use their advice.

Of course an AntiMormon will tell you that it was because of Mormon shunning of exMembers, instead of the real reason, that you will become a heretical selfrigheous obnoxious Faith-aloner that Anti-Mormonism will turn you into.

James Banta

03-07-2014, 09:46 AM

Typical Anti-Mormon nonsense and hypocrical sillness.
Notice how Anti-Mormons are only experts on how to lose you faith, but give no advice on how one is to gain faith.

In fact most of the advice they give you is contradictory, as the following gem from off their link will show you.

"If you do not hear from the Bishop after 30-40 days, write another letter to him insisting he take this action as you instructed, otherwise, you may be forced to seek legal action. You might also threaten that you will start a writing campaign to the newspapers to inform them of the church's control and unfairness in this action."

To start off with a little background I will say that there has NEVER been one case where wrongful termination, excommunication or even nonaction when it comes to disfellowship from a religion has won in a US court. There have been hundreds of attempts and the vast majority have been against nonLDS religions. In fact it is even against the US Cons***ution for the courts to even get involved. The only hope one would have is in proving that harm came when such action against you by the church became puplic. However if you notice from the statement above, they are the ones who tell you that you need to make it puplic, thereby nullifying any hopes you had (no matter how impossiple that is) to winning your case because it was you who made it puplic. It seems they dont even have basic common sense in their wishful thinking over there.

No... if you want to leave, then just leave and depart as friends. Move on with your life and in your walk with God. Take the advice of the Bible and NEVER LOOK BACK. Unless of course when you finnaly come to realize that you have made a mistake, you will then be accepted back with open arms.

Since a Christian sees faith as a gift from God no on gains faith.. It is given or it is not given.. And that only in God's will.. Now, who does God will to receive faith? I turn to His word to establish which one of has the right to receive faith.

1 Tim 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

All men not some or a few.. It is our own personal will to reject the faith He provides, to reject the grace that is made available through that faith.. There is non-action if joining a different church is grounds for excommunication. there are still many in the Church that are members of record in the LDS church.. No action is taken against their membership as long as there is no public comments made against the church by them.. It was my public comments that brought the wrath of the LDS church down on me even though I had been attending Sandy Baptist church for months. Not until I made noises like a Christian was I brought up on charges by the LDS church.. By quoting a verse of the Bible and asking the if the reader had responded to Jesus inviting Him in to their life Charges of apostasy were brought against me.. I find it strange that holding a trust in Jesus was seen by the LDS church as Apostasy but no matter It was a way to get out of mormonism..

There was action that was successful against mormonism that caused it to offer resignation instead of excommunication. It didn't go to trial but still the LDS church was forced to allow people to leave the church my resignation.. Before that as in the era I left mormonism there was only one way out and that was excommunication. Your false statement that no case against the church was ever successful is a thin cover up and the fact that people can now resign.

Yes I made my acceptance of Jesus public. Is that a reason to be exed from what the LDS see as the Lord Jesus Christ's one true church? That was the public statement. Any negative statements that were made before my excommunication were made in private.. That didn't stop them (thank God).. I tell all those who doubt the truthfulness of Smith and the right of the LDS church to claim to be God's one true church to get free from this man invented anti-bible church. Resign NOW don't wait.. As you leave don't worry about walking away from a lie on friendly terms. Resist their EVIL is the teaching of many Gods. Resist their evil of usurping the priesthood of Jesus calling themselves HIGH PRIESTS in the priesthood order of Melchizedek. Resist their evil in believing that they can become as divine as God is divine. These doctrines are soul destroying. They are built in the works they do not on God grace to bring you to Himself.. Mormonism is a religion based on self-righteous acts not on the righteous acts of Jesus imputed on those that will believe Him.. IHS jim

alanmolstad

03-07-2014, 10:10 AM

"The following are suggestions for writing a letter to the LDS Church to terminate your membership.

A letter should be sent to the Bishop of the Ward that has your current membership records.
Be sure to keep a copy of your letter in your files.
The letter should be in your own words but start with something like:

This is to inform you that as of (give date) I have terminated my membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

You can then list your reasons for leaving, if you wish.
This is a good opportunity to share with them your faith in God, not man. (Many Bishops have never had a person leave the church on the basis of it not being true.)

View this as a chance to plant some seeds.

However, you are not required to give them any reason for your action.

Keep in mind, they do not have the right to retain your name on their membership list after you have informed them that you have resigned."

James Banta

03-07-2014, 11:36 AM

RealFakeHair

03-07-2014, 11:49 AM

Thanks Allan.. I think this is very helpful info to those wondering how to get out.. IHS jim

now tell me how I get out of the Publishing Clearing House sweep stake mailing list?

Phoenix

03-07-2014, 03:15 PM

... No action is taken against their membership as long as there is no public comments made against the church by them.. It was my public comments that brought the wrath of the LDS church down on me even though I had been attending Sandy Baptist church for months. Not until I made noises like a Christian was I brought up on charges by the LDS church..

So in a nutshell, it wasn't until you publicly attacked the church, that the church accused you of publicly attacking it. That seems OK to me.

James Banta

03-07-2014, 03:44 PM

So in a nutshell, it wasn't until you publicly attacked the church, that the church accused you of publicly attacking it. That seems OK to me.

No that isn't what I said.. I said it wasn't until I circulated a track that said Jesus is the only way to salvation, that nothing and no one can take His place in bringing salvation to mankind. That got their attention and came and found out that didn't believe that mormonism was the Lord one true Church nor did I believe that Joseph Smith was ever a prophet.. While I will tell anyone that, this forum is my one outlet for showing the evidence for the that statement to the world and to the LDS specifically.. IHS jim

neverending

03-07-2014, 03:57 PM

So in a nutshell, it wasn't until you publicly attacked the church, that the church accused you of publicly attacking it. That seems OK to me.

Since you weren't there and I was, I can tell you the tract we took around our neighborhood had nothing on it that attacked your church. It had a picture of Jesus standing outside a door, and about to knock. It quoted the verse from Rev. 3:20, "'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me." So, how was this in any way attacking your church? We got the idea from a song that our kids learned when they went with some neighbor kids to Vacation Bible School. That was a wonderful summer for our kids, they learned so much and we met some very friendly, kind people. We had our phone number on the tract and wanted our neighbors to know that Jesus is there for them if they would open the door. Oh, almost forgot, it also said, I'm on the inside, on which side are you, which were words from the song our kids had learned....."One door and only one and yet it sides are two.....I'm on the inside, on which side are you?"
It was after that that we really began questioning Mormonism and by the end of summer we had decided to leave it and began attending a small Baptist Church. That's all there was to it.
As for Christian churches excommunicating members who leave and go to other churches, nope; that never happens. If someone doesn't show up for many months, it is ***umed that they have gone somewhere else or have stopped attending any church. The Pastor or one of the Elders of the church usually gives that person a call to find out if they are alright and if they are in need of anything. That is how things are done as we've been members of our small church for over 2 decades.

alanmolstad

03-07-2014, 04:01 PM

llllllot of kinda personal info there guys......

i think the best way to go is to.just write a letter and be done with it.....

neverending

03-07-2014, 04:09 PM

llllllot of kinda personal info there guys......

i think the best way to go is to.just write a letter and be done with it.....
You need to remember we left the church a long time ago. We didn't know anyone who had left the LDS Church so had no idea about writing a letter to ask that our names be removed. I don't think what I said to Phoenix was to personal. It explains perfectly what happened to us. It was that very evening after taking that tract around that the Bishop called us and everything snow balled from there.

Phoenix

03-07-2014, 06:46 PM

You need to remember we left the church a long time ago. We didn't know anyone who had left the LDS Church so had no idea about writing a letter to ask that our names be removed. I don't think what I said to Phoenix was to personal. It explains perfectly what happened to us. It was that very evening after taking that tract around that the Bishop called us and everything snow balled from there.

I agree it probably wasn't "TMI" and I am grateful to find out some details. At least one more piece of the puzzle that it would help to know: That evening, what was it that the bishop said? Did you do anything after that phone call that might possibly have been "misunderstood" by church members as being an attack on Mormon teachings?

theway

03-07-2014, 06:47 PM

"The following are suggestions for writing a letter to the LDS Church to terminathe will membership.

A letter should be sent to the Bishop of the Ward that has your current membership records.
Be sure to keep a copy of your letter in your files.
The letter should be in your own words but start with something like:

This is to inform you that as of (give date) I have terminated my membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

You can then list your reasons for leaving, if you wish.
This is a good opportunity to share with them your faith in God, not man. (Many Bishops have never had a person leave the church on the basis of it not being true.)

View this as a chance to plant some seeds.

However, you are not required to give them any reason for your action.LOL... Ohhhh.... it sounds so ominous, as though there is a chance this would ever see the inside of a courtroom Need I remind you that this is not a legal issue, so quit pretending that they will change the cons***ution just for your anti religious agenda.

Keep in mind, they do not have the right to retain your name on their membership list after you have informed them that you have resigned."Rights??? Since you will now have absolutely no rights to private information of the church as a nonmember, then how in the world would you even know whether they removed your name or what was put in your file? The people who wrote this are so full of hot air and wishful thinking.
What I find silly and laughably ironic is that you are forced to have to rely on the Bishop's promise that he willl abide by the promise he made, because you were the one who failed to abide by the promises which you made.

theway

03-07-2014, 07:07 PM

Since a Christian sees faith as a gift from God no on gains faith.. It is given or it is not given.. And that only in God's will.. Now, who does God will to receive faith? I turn to His word to establish which one of has the right to receive faith.

1 Tim 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

All men not some or a few.. It is our own personal will to reject the faith He provides, to reject the grace that is made available through that faith.. There is non-action if joining a different church is grounds for excommunication. there are still many in the Church that are members of record in the LDS church.. No action is taken against their membership as long as there is no public comments made against the church by them.. It was my public comments that brought the wrath of the LDS church down on me even though I had been attending Sandy Baptist church for months. Not until I made noises like a Christian was I brought up on charges by the LDS church.. By quoting a verse of the Bible and asking the if the reader had responded to Jesus inviting Him in to their life Charges of apostasy were brought against me.. I find it strange that holding a trust in Jesus was seen by the LDS church as Apostasy but no matter It was a way to get out of mormonism..

There was action that was successful against mormonism that caused it to offer resignation instead of excommunication. It didn't go to trial but still the LDS church was forced to allow people to leave the church my resignation.. Before that as in the era I left mormonism there was only one way out and that was excommunication. Your false statement that no case against the church was ever successful is a thin cover up and the fact that people can now resign.

Yes I made my acceptance of Jesus public. Is that a reason to be exed from what the LDS see as the Lord Jesus Christ's one true church? That was the public statement. Any negative statements that were made before my excommunication were made in private.. That didn't stop them (thank God).. I tell all those who doubt the truthfulness of Smith and the right of the LDS church to claim to be God's one true church to get free from this man invented anti-bible church. Resign NOW don't wait.. As you leave don't worry about walking away from a lie on friendly terms. Resist their EVIL is the teaching of many Gods. Resist their evil of usurping the priesthood of Jesus calling themselves HIGH PRIESTS in the priesthood order of Melchizedek. Resist their evil in believing that they can become as divine as God is divine. These doctrines are soul destroying. They are built in the works they do not on God grace to bring you to Himself.. Mormonism is a religion based on self-righteous acts not on the righteous acts of Jesus imputed on those that will believe Him.. IHS jimLOL... typical Banta rant...
You start off with usless pla***udes and opinions...
Then you will post a scripture which has nothing to do with the subject at hand. ..
Then you end with a "Joseph Smith was a bad man" rant.

What I think is funny is that you think that to family, friends and LDS members that "resigning from the church" is somehow seen as a better than being excommunicated because of sin.

Think about it...

neverending

03-07-2014, 07:48 PM

I agree it probably wasn't "TMI" and I am grateful to find out some details. At least one more piece of the puzzle that it would help to know: That evening, what was it that the bishop said? Did you do anything after that phone call that might possibly have been "misunderstood" by church members as being an attack on Mormon teachings?

All that was said to the Bishop was that we wouldn't be attending at the Ward anymore but had found a new church, that was it. Within a month we were out, excommunicated for Apostasy. Now you know the full story but even today I laugh because to be accused of apostasy, we would have had to give up our faith in Jesus Christ, and that we have never done. It is only that we denied JS and all Mormon doctrines. It's really no big deal except to my parents who disowned me. I was the youngest and the only girl. Oh well, my only living sibling is an atheist but to my Dad that was ok, he still thought the world of that son because they went deer hunting every year. My other brother who has p***ed away never liked hunting and was gay. A very dysfunctional family wouldn't you say?

alanmolstad

03-07-2014, 08:03 PM

All that was said to the Bishop was that we wouldn't be attending at the Ward anymore but had found a new church, that was it. Within a month we were out, excommunicated for Apostasy. .
I still worry that a lot of personal information seems to be flowing around here...Still....I cant help but feel for you.

The truth is that while I have never been mixed up in any CULTS,,,,(thank God) I have for some unknown reason, spent most all of my life with close friends that had similar horror stories to yours.

I try to be understanding, but I will never understand.

I try to say the right thing, but what can you say?

I have my own views of such stuff and the use of this "stick of excommunication" that actually turns even a good Christian church into one that acts more like a CULT than a place where sinners find hope.

I simply dont get it....I dont get this use of this ....."weapon" to keep people afraid,,,to keep people in-line "or else".

If I could give the whole world a bit of a suggestion, it would be that if you belong to a religion or a denomination, or heck a club, that makes use of "excommunication" that you find your way to the nearest exit and ....and....run!

Run and don't look back!

alanmolstad

03-07-2014, 08:15 PM

LOL... typical Banta rant...

You know, he is not the only one that tends to rant.....................................I'm just saying.......

alanmolstad

03-07-2014, 08:25 PM

so quit pretending ......

If you check you will notice that the post of mine you are very upset with is surrounded by quotation marks.....to indicate that Im quoting something.

What am I quoting?....Im quoting the information found on the link in the Original Post.

As for the advice to "quit pretending"?.....Im going to pretend I didn't see that ....:o

James Banta

03-07-2014, 09:04 PM

now tell me how I get out of the Publishing Clearing House sweep stake mailing list?

sorry that is like getting away from the IRS.. IHS jim

neverending

03-07-2014, 09:44 PM

I still worry that a lot of personal information seems to be flowing around here...Still....I cant help but feel for you.

The truth is that while I have never been mixed up in any CULTS,,,,(thank God) I have for some unknown reason, spent most all of my life with close friends that had similar horror stories to yours.

I try to be understanding, but I will never understand.

I try to say the right thing, but what can you say?

I have my own views of such stuff and the use of this "stick of excommunication" that actually turns even a good Christian church into one that acts more like a CULT than a place where sinners find hope.

I simply dont get it....I dont get this use of this ....."weapon" to keep people afraid,,,to keep people in-line "or else".

If I could give the whole world a bit of a suggestion, it would be that if you belong to a religion or a denomination, or heck a club, that makes use of "excommunication" that you find your way to the nearest exit and ....and....run!

Run and don't look back!

Well thanks alan. All I will say is, it was a terrible time for me since I was disowned by my parents but all that doesn't matter when I look at the big picture. I did still visit my parents even though there were times when the tension could be cut with a knife but they were still my parents and I still loved them. After the p***ing of my Dad, I did all I could to help my mother; she's been gone now since 2001 but I wonder if she appreciated how hard it was for me as I was going through Nursing School and trying to take care of my family and still trying to find time to help her. All water under the bridge but let me say this, when a member of the LDS Church gets ex'd or leaves, you are shunned by your neighbors and friends. I lost a life long friendship when I left the church and everything was my fault. All I could do was wish my friend well and say, goodbye. Sorry if this was TMI but it does let others know that leaving the LDS Church is not easy and many sad things happen.

alanmolstad

03-07-2014, 09:45 PM

.....just for your anti religious agenda.
......

my agenda?

Lets go over that idea a moment.

What do people think?

Jim here on the forum "likely" thinks I have an agenda too.
But he also thinks my agenda is also "beer-fueled" (if you know what I mean)
.....actually good call on that one James.

Neverending clearly thinks I have an agenda.
I got no doubt as to that!

Billy knew for a fact I had an agenda...and...didn't like it one bit.

Sword also felt I had an agenda, and that I kept secret?....(God I much be sneaky)

There have been other posters here over the years on the Walter Martin forum that all felt that I had an agenda.

But Im not so sure.....
Do I have an agenda?.....do I really?.......

Am I up to something?

Perhaps....(is havering fun an agenda?)

James Banta

03-07-2014, 10:21 PM

To start off with a little background I will say that there has NEVER been one case where wrongful termination, excommunication or even nonaction when it comes to disfellowship from a religion has won in a US court. There have been hundreds of attempts and the vast majority have been against nonLDS religions. In fact it is even against the US Cons***ution for the courts to even get involved..

Let me see whose post spoke to losing ones faith.. It wasn't mine, oh look it was yours.. "Anti-Mormons are only experts on how to lose you faith, but give no advice on how one is to gain faith." So for me to speak to how we gain faith shows just how wrong your post started..

As to your unknowledgeable statement that no church has ever been successfully sued here is what I found:

A $1.3 million lawsuit against the Collinsville Church of Christ and the three of it's elders ***erted that the church and these men invaded privacy and were responsible for emotional distress. Marian Guinn the plaintiff, and her attorney’s argument was, "He was a single man. She was a single lady. And this is America." The attorney for the elders took the position: "That is the belief of every denomination that I know of, that you just can’t go around doing these things." The jury agreed with Guinn and awarded her $390,000 in damages; they specified additional damages, but both attorneys agreed on a maximum of $390,000.(Republic Wire Service, "Denouncing Mom’s ‘Sin’ Costs Church $390,000," photocopy of unidentified newspaper clipping, 16 March 1984; "Marian and the Elders," Time (magazine), 26 March 1984, 70.)

That kills your grand denial that no church was ever successfully sued for their excommunication actions against a member..

Ok that wasn't mormonism but the case of NORMAN HAN**** was.. In his fight with the LDS church he felt the Church and it's representatives President Beazer, his bishopric, and twelve high councilors defames his reputation falsely. Charging in the court that they had in a High Council court "slandered him in the court by making false, malicious, and slanderous accusations of illicit, improper, and immoral conduct, had violated his privacy, had placed him in a false light in the public eye, and had permanently injured his reputation, business and standing in the community" by making a public announcement to the ward officers that circulated swiftly throughout the community. Norman further argued that the action was extreme and outrageous and done intentionally and recklessly and hence had caused him emotional distress. These acts had, he claimed, exposed him to public contempt, hatred, and ridicule and had ‘blackened and injured his reputation." After fighting these charges for a few years the LDS church folded. They made a small monetary settlement offer which was refused and instead allowed the first non accusative resignation in LDS church history..

This same process of personal attacks by mormonism and their final capitulation is also seen in the case of Darla Tarrant. These pioneers have given people the right in mormonism to resign their membership without having mere men call them sinners for following the prompting of God to get out of mormonism.. You in your unstudied thought were unaware that any of these things happened.. One reason I am here is to teach.. You needed to be taught in this matter.. IHS jim

alanmolstad

03-08-2014, 12:17 AM

gosh...I never knew it was so...

I think the best way to go is if you want to go to a new church to just send a letter to the old church and let them know.....

And then the old church should just go,,,"Check him off the list" and thats it....

Phoenix

03-08-2014, 12:57 AM

All that was said to the Bishop was that we wouldn't be attending at the Ward anymore but had found a new church, that was it. Within a month we were out, excommunicated for Apostasy. Now you know the full story but even today I laugh because to be accused of apostasy, we would have had to give up our faith in Jesus Christ, and that we have never done. It is only that we denied JS and all Mormon doctrines. It's really no big deal except to my parents who disowned me. I was the youngest and the only girl. Oh well, my only living sibling is an atheist but to my Dad that was ok, he still thought the world of that son because they went deer hunting every year. My other brother who has p***ed away never liked hunting and was gay. A very dysfunctional family wouldn't you say?

Yes, that does seem pretty dysfunctional, and in my opinion, the decision to excommunicate a member for apostasy based merely on the news that the member had found a new church, seems extremely unusual.
In my ward we are currently contacting people who have stated they no longer want anything to do with the church , and we are asking them what they'd like to do. We give them the option of leaving their membership status as is, or the option of requesting their name be removed, which we will honor if that is their wish. But excommunication never even comes up in these cases. Maybe you just had an aberrant bishop.

alanmolstad

03-08-2014, 01:37 AM

Yes, that does seem pretty dysfunctional, and in my opinion, the decision to excommunicate a member for apostasy based merely on the news that the member had found a new church, seems extremely unusual.
In my ward .....
me too....

While a lot of this forum is dominated with "Mormon vs christian' topics,,,,the truth of your statement cuts across lines.

There are many Christian and non-Christian denominations that have really harsh rules as bad as any blood-sucking CULT you have ever heard about as far and excommunication goes.....

I just think the whole concept is wrong.......

No matter the religion......

just wrong.

alanmolstad

03-08-2014, 01:47 AM

I just think that if a guy changes his mind....WHO THE HELL CARES?

If i change my mind about a few things as i read the bible, who whose business is that really?

Should not a guy be allowed to be wrong a few times in his life without it being a big deal?
Just allow a guy to change his mind from time to time without the whole **** world stopping and black listing him for it.

James Banta

03-08-2014, 08:26 AM

alanmolstad

03-08-2014, 10:06 AM

the more I hear about what the Mormons act like, the more I look at Mormons and think, "How can they not see it?"

Phoenix

03-08-2014, 12:25 PM

the more I hear about what the Mormons act like, the more I look at Mormons and think, "How can they not see it?"

They act, on average, like the average human being, and that causes you to think badly of them?

RealFakeHair

03-08-2014, 12:56 PM

They act, on average, like the average human being, and that causes you to think badly of them?
If all LDSinc. acted like me it would be a beautiful world. If every TBM let their brain kick in when it comes to Joseph Smith jr. Imaginary mind they would be jehovah witness, or if not maybe hare krishna.

alanmolstad

03-08-2014, 01:24 PM

They act, on average, like the average human being, and that causes you to think badly of them?

we must be on two different forums

neverending

03-08-2014, 02:03 PM

Yes, that does seem pretty dysfunctional, and in my opinion, the decision to excommunicate a member for apostasy based merely on the news that the member had found a new church, seems extremely unusual.
In my ward we are currently contacting people who have stated they no longer want anything to do with the church , and we are asking them what they'd like to do. We give them the option of leaving their membership status as is, or the option of requesting their name be removed, which we will honor if that is their wish. But excommunication never even comes up in these cases. Maybe you just had an aberrant bishop.

I do think that some things have changed since I left your church but I also think that a Ward's at***ude is based on the Bishop and what kind of personality he has. Maybe I'm wrong but I do think that is so from what I experienced growing up a Mormon girl and after I got married and lived in a Ward here and a couple of Branches in Mississippi and N. Dakota. The worse was the Branch President in N. Dakota who in my opinion was cold hearted and had no concern for members who were struggling.

James Banta

03-08-2014, 02:24 PM

They act, on average, like the average human being, and that causes you to think badly of them?

If you really believed that wouldn't you agree that the heart of man is deceitful ABOVE ALL things and desperately wicked? Instead of the LDS doctrine that other than the ability to have children and experience physical death the fall had no effect of us? IHS jim

Phoenix

03-08-2014, 03:49 PM

If you really believed that wouldn't you agree that the heart of man is deceitful ABOVE ALL things and desperately wicked?
No. Human beings are individuals, and their behavior runs the spectrum, from worst to best. The worst of us, like maybe Hitler or Saddam or Idi Amin, could be described as deceitful ABOVE ALL things and desperately wicked, but it would be wrong to describe the best of us, such as St. Stephen or John or the many martyrs over the centuries, that way, because they were not deceitful ABOVE ALL things and desperately wicked, and their behavior is evidence of that.

Instead of the LDS doctrine that other than the ability to have children and experience physical death the fall had no effect of us?
But realistically speaking, the LDS doctrine seems pretty true to me. People chose to disobey God even before the Fall, don't you agree?

James Banta

03-08-2014, 08:57 PM

No. Human beings are individuals, and their behavior runs the spectrum, from worst to best. The worst of us, like maybe Hitler or Saddam or Idi Amin, could be described as deceitful ABOVE ALL things and desperately wicked, but it would be wrong to describe the best of us, such as St. Stephen or John or the many martyrs over the centuries, that way, because they were not deceitful ABOVE ALL things and desperately wicked, and their behavior is evidence of that.

But realistically speaking, the LDS doctrine seems pretty true to me. People chose to disobey God even before the Fall, don't you agree?

No I don't agree with you.. I agree with God through His word.. I had hopes that you would have recognized it. Is it one of those p***ages you believe was perverted by evil or careless men?

Jer 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

This is why we must be born again because our base nature is to do evil continually (Genesis 6:5). Stephen, John, the martyrs, even Many the mother of Jesus were sinners saved by God's grace through faith in God, having been born spiritually of God by that faith.. Paul was a great apostle of the Lord Jesus and still he admitted that the Good he would do, that he doesn't do but the evil he would not do, that he does (Romans 7:19). So yes even the men we look to as spiritual giants are sinners saved by God's grace. They, me, and even you are sinners, lost if not for His grace.. There are no exceptions to who has a heart of deceit that is desperately wicked that describe everyone of us outside the imputed righteousness given to all that believe.. IHS jim

Phoenix

03-08-2014, 09:53 PM

James Banta

03-09-2014, 09:50 AM

I said that people were disobeying God even before the Fall, and you said you disagree, Jim. Did I misunderstand you ? I had hopes that you would have recognized the Bible p***age I am referring to . Is it one of those p***ages you believe was perverted by evil or careless men?

Adam disobeyed God. That was the fall.. There was no man that ever disobeyed God before that.. Yes it a bit like asking where the man was when he jumped off the bridge but in reality no man sinned before Adam did so. This is according to the Bible. If you want to force your own self serving beliefs that tells you that other men existed as Adam lived in the garden, that is your personal distorted beliefs. There is no such teaching found in the Bible. Satan was never a man. Those angelic beings that followed him were never men. Adam was the only man that sinned and until that day no sin existed before God.. IHS jim

alanmolstad

03-09-2014, 11:22 AM

theway

03-09-2014, 12:22 PM

Adam disobeyed God. That was the fall.. There was no man that ever disobeyed God before that.. Yes it a bit like asking where the man was when he jumped off the bridge but in reality no man sinned before Adam did so. This is according to the Bible. If you want to force your own self serving beliefs that tells you that other men existed as Adam lived in the garden, that is your personal distorted beliefs. There is no such teaching found in the Bible. Satan was never a man. Those angelic beings that followed him were never men. Adam was the only man that sinned and until that day no sin existed before God.. IHS jim

You are contradicting yourself here???
Did Satan and those who followed him sin or not "before God" and before there was Adam and Eve?

alanmolstad

03-09-2014, 01:48 PM

....Yes it a bit like asking where the man was when he jumped off the bridge ....

I'm a little in the dark about this metaphor.....

James Banta

03-09-2014, 02:51 PM

I'm a little in the dark about this metaphor.....

It's a riddle.. "Where was the man whe hhe jumped off the bridge".. He wasn't on the bridge, that's where he was before he jumped. He wasn't in the air, that's where he was after he jumped.. Does that help? IHS jim

alanmolstad

03-10-2014, 08:46 AM

You are contradicting yourself here???
Did Satan and those who followed him sin or not "before God" and before there was Adam and Eve?

A good question, one that actually came up a few times back in my Bible school days.

If I remember what I learned at the time, there is a Bible verse that teaches that Satan walked just fine though the garden .

The garden was made on the 6th day of creation.
Later Satan is judged by the lord for his part in the fall of man.

So what seems to be true is that Satan enjoyed a correct relationship with God even after man was living in the garden.
But that at some point Satan approached the man and woman and helped then fall into sin.
At that point Satan lost his relationship with god and was judged, even to the point of the "he will crush your head' stuff that God tells him.

James Banta

03-10-2014, 10:58 AM

You are contradicting yourself here???
Did Satan and those who followed him sin or not "before God" and before there was Adam and Eve?

What I said was 100% correct.. Satan whether he sinned in his heart before Adam was ever created or in the garden in deceiving Eve, he was not a human being but an angelic creation.. He was NOT A MAN! I said clearly that "Adam disobeyed God. That was the fall.. There was no man that ever disobeyed God before that". Let me say again that no man ever disobeyed God before Adam sinned.. There is no contradiction in that.. IHS jim

theway

03-10-2014, 01:33 PM

What I said was 100% correct.. Satan whether he sinned in his heart before Adam was ever created or in the garden in deceiving Eve, he was not a human being but an angelic creation.. He was NOT A MAN! I said clearly that "Adam disobeyed God. That was the fall.. There was no man that ever disobeyed God before that". Let me say again that no man ever disobeyed God before Adam sinned.. There is no contradiction in that.. IHS jimThat is not what you said... Here is what you said before you decided you needed to backpedal.

Adam was the only man that sinned and until that day no sin existed before God..

RealFakeHair

03-10-2014, 01:46 PM

That is not what said... Here is what you said before you decided you needed to backpedal.

Adam was the only man that sinned and until that day no sin existed before God..
Eve sinned first!

alanmolstad

03-10-2014, 01:49 PM

That is not what said... Here is what you said before you decided you needed to backpedal.

Adam was the only man that sinned and until that day no sin existed before God.. If you have a question about what jim thinks, ask him!

If you have a post of Jim's that you think is unclear in relation to later posts, then ask Jim to address the whole issue for you so you dont have to guess what he was talking about last week, you can learn what he thinks right now.

I had a Mormon a few years ago try to make a big deal over one of my older posts too...He was going on and on with the "But you said ___ on this issue last year and now you are being inconsistent" (It was a "Faith Alone" topic)

What I told the Mormon kid back then is the same advice I tell other today when people got a question about what someone thinks?....ask them!

Ask the person what they think......

That way you don't **** a whole bunch of posts like that Mormon kid did over the position in my view of "baptism" and how it's does not save us, yet I believe it shows salvation has come.

So if anyone is unsure what Jim thinks of the position of the spirit of a person at death?.Or the first introduction of "evil" in the bible's story?...then ask Jim to address that question.
And if you ask Jim nice, Im sure he will post you his views.

alanmolstad

03-10-2014, 01:52 PM

Eve sinned first!
well......thats another story, but actually when you read the story you don't get that eve sinned first.

Rather there is a weird collusion between the man and Satan that led to Eve being misled as to what the law stated....

remember when Eve stated the law according to how she was taught?......
She states the law incorrectly.
Adam is "there with her" at the time, and does not correct her.

satan is there too, and while we dont know for sure that satan knew what God had told Adam, we do see that Satan seems very knowledgeable as to what God had said to adam.
What is clear is that Satan does not correct Eve too.

So both Adam and Satan heard the error that eve makes about the only law that was given at the time, and both say nothing to correct her.

It is also very important that we understand that when God confronts adam about the sin, Adam points to Eve right away .
Adam did this knowing all the time that the punishment for eating was death.
so Adam knew when he pointed at Eve as being to blame for the sin that this was likely going to mean that god would kill Eve.

the speed that Adam points to eve is not an accident.
Adam treats Eve not as an equal, but as a thing.
The moment he points to her he is telling god, "Kill her"

I believe it may have been Adam's plan all along.

This willingness to kill another , even someone so close to themselves, was not lost on Adam's children as we read in the story of Cain...

RealFakeHair

03-10-2014, 02:03 PM

well......thats another story, but actually when you read the story you don't get that eve sinned first.

Rather there is a weird collusion between the man and Satan that led to Eve being misled as to what the law stated....

remember when Eve stated the law according to how she was taught?......
She states the law incorrectly.
Adam is "there with her" at the time, and does not correct her.

satan is there too, and while we dont know for sure that satan knew what God had told Adam, we do see that Satan seems very knowledgeable as to what God had said to adam.
What is clear is that Satan does not correct Eve too.

So both Adam and Satan heard the error that eve makes about the only law that was given at the time, and both say nothing to correct her.

It is also very important that we understand that when God confronts adam about the sin, Adam points to Eve right away .
Adam did this knowing all the time that the punishment for eating was death.
so Adam knew when he pointed at Eve as being to blame for the sin that this was likely going to mean that god would kill Eve.

the speed that Adam points to eve is not an accident.
Adam treats Eve not as an equal, but as a thing.
The moment he points to her he is telling god, "Kill her"

Women never listen anyways

alanmolstad

03-10-2014, 02:06 PM

now as for when did Satan fall?....and was it before Adam sinned?....the bible is not clear about that.

I have read of a verse that has been said to teach that satan was enjoying a correct relationship with god as Satan walked in the garden.
if this is correct, that puts the fall of Satan into the very same story of the fall of man.
They happened at the same time, more or less.

This does fit the best into what God says to satan after the fall of man and the "he will crush your head" statement.

In other bible verses we learn that satan fell when he wanted the position of god, and wanted to be "like the Most high"

Well think about that for a moment, satan wanted to look like god, but in front of other angels?....I dont think so.

the angels, even the fallen angels all knew better.
The angels always knew that satan was not God.

but men are not so wise.
men are always confusing Satan with being God, (look at Smith's life for example)
So if satan was serious about wanting the position of God, then this may show us that it was not until men walked the earth that Satan felt this need to be like god....because men can be tricked into believing Satan is God, whereas angels know the real God at all times.

alanmolstad

03-10-2014, 02:13 PM

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/...ovalletter.htm

RealFakeHair

03-10-2014, 02:15 PM

Phoenix

03-10-2014, 02:16 PM

Adam disobeyed God. That was the fall.. There was no man that ever disobeyed God before that..
RealFakeHair already figured out the "problem" with your statement:
Eve was disobeying God before Adam fell, and before she and Adam got kicked out of the garden. Therefore, according to the Bible, the reason human beings sin isn't because Adam sinned. Human beings were able to disobey God even while Adam and Eve were still in the garden, and from that time up until the present day, human beings are able to sin all by themselves. Adam didn't cause anyone to sin.

Yes it a bit like asking where the man was when he jumped off the bridge but in reality no man sinned before Adam did so.
But a woman sinned before Adam did, don't you believe that?

Adam was the only man that sinned and until that day no sin existed before God.. IHS jim
Does the Bible support your claim that no sin existed in the world until Adam sinned?

alanmolstad

03-10-2014, 02:21 PM

But a woman sinned before Adam did, don't you believe that?

that is not how the story reads....

I have already posted my views on this matter...see post #50

theway

03-10-2014, 02:30 PM

It is also very important that we understand that when God confronts adam about the sin, Adam points to Eve right away .
Adam did this knowing all the time that the punishment for eating was death.
so Adam knew when he pointed at Eve as being to blame for the sin that this was likely going to mean that god would kill Eve.

the speed that Adam points to eve is not an accident.
Adam treats Eve not as an equal, but as a thing.
The moment he points to her he is telling god, "Kill her"

I believe it may have been Adam's plan all along.

This willingness to kill another , even someone so close to themselves, was not lost on Adam's children as we read in the story of Cain...Please... That's just silly talk.
Adam and Eve had no concept of good and evil... They also had no concept of death even after they ate from the tree.

It would be like me giving you a grape and telling you that if you eat it you will be "vermoosed".
How in the world would you know whether it was a good thing or a bad thing I was telling you? Especially if you didn't know the difference between good and bad or what vermoosed meant?

RealFakeHair

03-10-2014, 02:34 PM

alanmolstad

03-10-2014, 02:45 PM

Please... That's just silly talk.
Adam and Eve had no concept of good and evil...

What Im saying fits within the story.
What Im saying is in agreement with the facts and with what people did, and with what was said.

Satan addressed Eve, although we learn later that her husband (Adam) was there with her.
Eve is asked as to what god had said?
Eve answers with what god said, (But we also know that god did not say anything to eve but rather all Eve knew came to her via what Adam told her god had told him.

Eve makes an error in her answer as to what god had said.

Adam who is right there,does not correct eve's error.

Satan who also is right there, also does not correct her.

Adam is the husband of Eve, so regardless of who was at fault for eating, the correct thing to do when God confronts Adam was for Adam to take all the blame and ask god to forgive his wife.
Adam did not do that.

Adam points to eve as to blame.
Adam points to eve knowing that if God does blame Eve she will be killed.

This is why later when God speaks to Eve he tells her"your desire shall be to your husband, and he will rule over you"

This statement to Eve was something that Eve just saw to be true.
Remember God had created man and women to both 'rule" over the earth together.
But now Eve just saw her husband treat her as also something he got to "rule" over.

Why did Eve give the food to Adam?.....it was out of love.

My suggestion to this story is that Adam was attempting to make use of his wife in an effort to eat and not die.

neverending

03-10-2014, 03:08 PM

Please... That's just silly talk.
Adam and Eve had no concept of good and evil... They also had no concept of death even after they ate from the tree.

It would be like me giving you a grape and telling you that if you eat it you will be "vermoosed".
How in the world would you know whether it was a good thing or a bad thing I was telling you? Especially if you didn't know the difference between good and bad or what vermoosed meant?

If Adam and Eve had no concept of good and evil, then why was Adam embarr***ed about being naked? And why then did he cover himself and Eve with fig leaves? Before that time, to me they were very childlike in how they thought and behaved. That is why God told them NOT to eat of the tree because he had warned them. What verses do you have to defend your claim that Adam and Eve had no concept of good and evil or death? They knew they would die at some point and especially so once they were forced out of the Garden of Eden. You forget, it was GOD who conversed with these two all the time they lived in the Garden. They trusted God, why wouldn't they? Please get your Bible and read, Gen. 3:19 for Adam knew from conversing with God that both he and Eve would die because of their sin of eating of the fruit. So, your comment here must be your own opinion for it does not follow what God's word tells us.

RealFakeHair

03-10-2014, 03:16 PM

If Adam and Eve had no concept of good and evil, then why was Adam embarr***ed about being naked? And why then did he cover himself and Eve with fig leaves? Before that time, to me they were very childlike in how they thought and behaved. That is why God told them NOT to eat of the tree because he had warned them. What verses do you have to defend your claim that Adam and Eve had no concept of good and evil or death? They knew they would die at some point and especially so once they were forced out of the Garden of Eden. You forget, it was GOD who conversed with these two all the time they lived in the Garden. They trusted God, why wouldn't they? Please get your Bible and read, Gen. 3:19 for Adam knew from conversing with God that both he and Eve would die because of their sin of eating of the fruit. So, your comment here must be your own opinion for it does not follow what God's word tells us.

It would really be a sin if someone saw me naked, but that's another story.
We must remember the LDSinc. believe it was a good thing for Adam and Eve to disobey God. Right here is one of many mistakes of Joseph Smith jr. imaginary mind.

James Banta

03-10-2014, 04:15 PM

That is not what you said... Here is what you said before you decided you needed to backpedal.

Adam was the only man that sinned and until that day no sin existed before God..

This was my first post on this subject:

Adam disobeyed God. That was the fall.. There was no man that ever disobeyed God before that.. Yes it a bit like asking where the man was when he jumped off the bridge but in reality no man sinned before Adam did so. This is according to the Bible. If you want to force your own self serving beliefs that tells you that other men existed as Adam lived in the garden, that is your personal distorted beliefs. There is no such teaching found in the Bible. Satan was never a man. Those angelic beings that followed him were never men. Adam was the only man that sinned and until that day no sin existed before God.. IHS jim

Can you see where I said that "There was no man that ever disobeyed God before that.. "? I stand by that first statement, that Adam was the first man that sinned.. I stand by the statement that Satan was never a man.. No other man before Adam ever existed, no other man could therefore have sinned.. There is no backpedaling there except in your mind and your inability to understand that I was saying.. Read it again I was clear NO OTHER MAN EVER DISOBEYED GOD.. That wasn't in the above post it was the first one I commented on what the Bible said about what was done and who did it.. Go look you will see that I have been 100% consistent.. IHS jim

theway

03-10-2014, 05:30 PM

If Adam and Eve had no concept of good and evil, then why was Adam embarr***ed about being naked? And why then did he cover himself and Eve with fig leaves? Before that time, to me they were very childlike in how they thought and behaved. That is why God told them NOT to eat of the tree because he had warned them. What verses do you have to defend your claim that Adam and Eve had no concept of good and evil or death? They knew they would die at some point and especially so once they were forced out of the Garden of Eden. You forget, it was GOD who conversed with these two all the time they lived in the Garden. They trusted God, why wouldn't they? Please get your Bible and read, Gen. 3:19 for Adam knew from conversing with God that both he and Eve would die because of their sin of eating of the fruit. So, your comment here must be your own opinion for it does not follow what God's word tells us.
The only one who is not following here is you... Try to keep up.

James Banta

03-10-2014, 07:26 PM

The only one who is not following here is you... Try to keep up.

It appears that NE has fully understood the flow of the the thread.. IHS jim

neverending

03-10-2014, 07:50 PM

The only one who is not following here is you... Try to keep up.

Excuse ME!!! Was it NOT you who was saying that Adam and Eve had no idea that they would die nor did they know good from evil after eating the forbidden fruit? Your exact words, "Adam and Eve had no concept of good and evil... They also had no concept of death even after they ate from the tree."
So, I gave you my answer and even gave you a verse in Genesis which you could have looked up but guess that would have taken to much effort. I think you are out to lunch.....Not theway.

James Banta

03-10-2014, 08:02 PM

[Phoenix;153575]RealFakeHair already figured out the "problem" with your statement:
Eve was disobeying God before Adam fell, and before she and Adam got kicked out of the garden. Therefore, according to the Bible, the reason human beings sin isn't because Adam sinned. Human beings were able to disobey God even while Adam and Eve were still in the garden, and from that time up until the present day, human beings are able to sin all by themselves. Adam didn't cause anyone to sin.

I am including Eve with Adam in the first sin.. God dealt with it as one sin and the punishment came onto both of them the same way.. They died that very day..

When God created man he pronounced that creation as good (Gen 1:32). Then Adam sinned, man fell and the Holy Spirit revealed the state of man's corruption:

Psalm 53:3
Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

God through the prophet has agreed

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

But a woman sinned before Adam did, don't you believe that?

Previously explained

Does the Bible support your claim that no sin existed in the world until Adam sinned?

This was also previously explained but I want you to see it again through God's word.. The Bible doesn't teach that it is because of Adam and Eve's sin all men die. It says "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive"(1 Corinthians 15:22), And "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death p***ed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Romans 5:12).. So before you start accusing me for being wrong about using Adam's name and not Eve's as the first sinner complain to God for that decision.. IHS jim

Phoenix

03-10-2014, 08:37 PM

I am including Eve with Adam in the first sin..
Oh.

God dealt with it as one sin and the punishment came onto both of them the same way.. They died that very day..
So that same day that Eve ate the apple and then had Adam eat it next, that same day they both died? But doesn't the Bible say that Adam died like 930 years after the apple eating incident? (Genesis 5:5)

When God created man he pronounced that creation as good (Gen 1:32).
The issue is whether humans were able to disobey God before Adam and Eve had all those children and grandchildren. Adam and Eve pretty much proved that it wasn't impossible for humans to disobey God, right from the beginning.
This proves that all us descendants of Adam and Eve had the ability to disobey God all by ourselves, regardless what the first two humans did. That is because each of us has the same freedom to make bad choices that Adam and Eve had. They proved that we didn't inherit some "sin" DNA from them. After all, if they could disobey God, then who put the sin DNA into them?

The Bible doesn't teach that it is because of Adam and Eve's sin all men die.
So you're claiming that only Adam's sin that counted, even though he was the second person to eat the fruit? Why would that be? How is that fair?

".... as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death p***ed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Romans 5:12)..

So before you start accusing me for being wrong about using Adam's name and not Eve's as the first sinner complain to God for that decision.
My point was merely that it's not Adam's fault that we sin. It's not Eve's fault, either, if that makes you feel any better.

The verse could be saying that since Adam got here first, everything that happened afterward happened "by one man."
If Adam had never arrived on the scene, Eve wouldn't have either, since she was made from a piece of him, the Bible says. Through Adam, Eve happened, so through Adam, the first act of disobedience entered the human race. But that is irrelevant to the real point, which is that the myth of a "sin nature" that we all inherited from Adam is a myth. We sin because we choose to, not because Adam's sin forces us to. No one forced Adam to sin, and he didn't have an inherited sin nature. Do you disagree with that?

alanmolstad

03-10-2014, 08:39 PM

does the Bible ever blame the fall onto eve?......do we suffer death due to Adam's sin, or the sin of Adam and eve?....what does the bible say?

alanmolstad

03-10-2014, 08:43 PM

as far as i know, the bible does blame Eve for the first sin.

What it says about her is that she was deceived.....in other words, she was fooled.

However Adam was not fooled....Adam was not deceived at all, but knew full well what he was doing.

alanmolstad

03-10-2014, 08:45 PM

James Banta

03-11-2014, 08:24 AM

Jim, help me out here with this topic:

I dont get why a Mormon would carry on so in the effort to try to blame Eve, when the bible simply does not blame her for the sin?

The Bible is so clear as to who God blames for the first sin, why would the Mormons struggle so to disagree with the bible on this issue?

All I can think of is the belief that Adam really never sinned at all.. He provided a way to have us all enter the next step along their eternal progression trail. From a spirit life in heaven with God to that of mortality. You must have heard them call it "A fall upward".. They never refer to the Fall as a sin. They have cheapened it to being only a transgression.. Like somehow transgression is less serious than a sin.. So to blame Adam for sin in foreign to them.. Instead of saying Adam was a sinner they will blame Eve for the sin and hold Adam up as a christ like being.. After all it their doctrine that Adam aided Jesus in the creation of the world.. In LDS doctrine Young was right Adam is a god, ("Jehovah, Michael, see matter unorganized").. In mormonism Jehovah is Jesus, and Michael is Adam. IHS jim

alanmolstad

03-11-2014, 09:20 AM

All I can think of is the belief that Adam really never sinned at all.. He provided a way to have us all enter the next step along their eternal progression trail. From a spirit life in heaven with God to that of mortality. You must have heard them call it "A fall upward".. They never refer to the Fall as a sin. They have cheapened it to being only a transgression.. Like somehow transgression is less serious than a sin.. So to blame Adam for sin in foreign to them.. Instead of saying Adam was a sinner they will blame Eve for the sin and hold Adam up as a christ like being.. After all it their doctrine that Adam aided Jesus in the creation of the world.. In LDS doctrine Young was right Adam is a god, ("Jehovah, Michael, see matter unorganized").. In mormonism Jehovah is Jesus, and Michael is Adam. IHS jim
Thanks......that is one screwed up Mormon doctrine to be sure!

alanmolstad

03-11-2014, 09:33 AM

They never refer to the Fall as a sin. They have cheapened it to being only a transgression.. Like somehow transgression is less serious than a sin.. ..................In LDS doctrine Young was right Adam is a god, ........

The whole mess of Mormon teachings actually reminds me of a question I had to answer back when I attended Bible school.
We talked about it here on the forum, Im not sure what topic it was, but its something I like to think about and remember...

At some point in our Bible School cl*** study we were asked "When did Satan fall?"
We were shown how Jesus clearly told his guys that he had personally seen Satan fall....so we know Satan did fall..

But we were asked to come up with ideas for when?

Most of the other students picked out some made-up date billions and billions of years in the past....
But if I remember my answer that I came up with, I said that as near as I can see from just the text of the Bible alone, it appears that Satan fell at more or less the same time that we read about the sin of Adam.

I think I had this long answer that I turned in on the question, with tons of listed verses,etc,etvc,etc, but the heart of my answer rested on the idea that because Satan is an angel, and said to have fallen because he wanted to be seen as god , that this had to mean that it was after man was created .

I felt, (and still feel) that in order for Satan to actually be seen by anyone as being "god" that Satan would have to trick the beings he is seen as being god by.

I mean lets face it, he is not god, and will never be god..
So the only way he will ever be seen by anyone as being god is if he is able to trick others into thinking he is god.

I don't think angels can be tricked like that.

I felt that there is no way that Satan could ever trick other angels, so this means that the beings that Satan wanted to be seen as god by had to be people.

When we study the teachings of Mormonism it so clearly is true that the god of the Mormons is Satan.

Satan has actually managed to pull off his dream of being seen by others as god.

This seems to totally support my idea that Satan fell with the creation of man, because we do in-fact have these people that believe Satan is god right here and now....yet I doubt that anywhere in the universe is there even one tiny angel that actually believes Satan is God Almighty.

So the good angels know satan is not God, and all the bad, fallen angels all know for a fact that Satan is not the true God too.

This fact of life has not changed, will never change, nor can it.

Satan does not fool any angels into thinking he is god....he fools men.

From the things Jim has quoted its clear to me that all the Mormons worship Satan.
They follow Satan's ideas, they listen to Satan's advice, the credit Satan with being wise and good.
So it's case-closed on that issue.

I once heard a story that at one point in some type of Mormon temple setting they watch a little play/drama, and there is a prayer offered to God, and shockingly Satan answers that prayer!...

Now Im not sure if this story of the temple drama is true, but if it is it would be the last straw as far as Im concerned as to the question, "Do Mormons worship Satan?"........

They do.

neverending

03-11-2014, 11:33 AM

Women never listen anyways

I take offense with this comment. It is men who never listen! Seems we're always having to repeat ourselves and hey, what does this have to do with the thread topic?

neverending

03-11-2014, 11:58 AM

Oh.

So that same day that Eve ate the apple and then had Adam eat it next, that same day they both died? But doesn't the Bible say that Adam died like 930 years after the apple eating incident? (Genesis 5:5)

The issue is whether humans were able to disobey God before Adam and Eve had all those children and grandchildren. Adam and Eve pretty much proved that it wasn't impossible for humans to disobey God, right from the beginning.
This proves that all us descendants of Adam and Eve had the ability to disobey God all by ourselves, regardless what the first two humans did. That is because each of us has the same freedom to make bad choices that Adam and Eve had. They proved that we didn't inherit some "sin" DNA from them. After all, if they could disobey God, then who put the sin DNA into them?

So you're claiming that only Adam's sin that counted, even though he was the second person to eat the fruit? Why would that be? How is that fair?

".... as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death p***ed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Romans 5:12)..

My point was merely that it's not Adam's fault that we sin. It's not Eve's fault, either, if that makes you feel any better.

The verse could be saying that since Adam got here first, everything that happened afterward happened "by one man."
If Adam had never arrived on the scene, Eve wouldn't have either, since she was made from a piece of him, the Bible says. Through Adam, Eve happened, so through Adam, the first act of disobedience entered the human race. But that is irrelevant to the real point, which is that the myth of a "sin nature" that we all inherited from Adam is a myth. We sin because we choose to, not because Adam's sin forces us to. No one forced Adam to sin, and he didn't have an inherited sin nature. Do you disagree with that?

I'd like to know what Adam and Eve have to do with this thread topic? And Phoenix, when Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden it made them mortal. No, they didn't die then and there for we do know that Adam lived many centuries but they were made spiritually dead, separated from God. Also, Adam was over Eve, she was told to obey Adam by God, he took the fall for her, he should have been watching over her, she was his wife and wasn't it his *** to protect her? Do you not believe that Eve was punished more harshly then Adam? To have to be pregnant, go through the pain of child birth, far worse in my opinion then to have to be a farmer. And when you think about how the world is today, women work outside the home as well as keeping a home, bearing children and all the duties of being a wife. A woman's lot in life is very harsh.

alanmolstad

03-11-2014, 12:49 PM

I'd like to know what Adam and Eve have to do with this thread topic? And Phoenix, when Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden it made them mortal.
No, they didn't die then and there for we do know that Adam lived many centuries but they were made spiritually dead, separated from God.
Also, Adam was over Eve, she was told to obey Adam by God, he took the fall for her, he should have been watching over her, she was his wife and wasn't it his *** to protect her?

Do you not believe that Eve was punished more harshly then Adam?

To have to be pregnant, go through the pain of child birth, far worse in my opinion then to have to be a farmer.

And when you think about how the world is today, women work outside the home as well as keeping a home, bearing children and all the duties of being a wife. A woman's lot in life is very harsh.

It almost sounds like someone thinks that the punishment was unequal or unfair?

He took the fall for her?...what story is that in?

and....this "obey" stuff...where is that in the story?

theway

03-11-2014, 01:18 PM

So you're claiming that only Adam's sin that counted, even though he was the second person to eat the fruit? Why would that be? How is that fair?
Oh, it gets worse than that under Evangelical theology. When asked my Jesus was not "born in sin" because of Adam like all men/woman, I was told that Jesus remained sinless because only His mother was mortal.

I guess it turns out that only males must carry the "sin gene".;)

alanmolstad

03-11-2014, 01:34 PM

if anyone needs helpful advice on how to exit the Mormon church, here is a link to some good information -

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/...ovalletter.htm

neverending

03-11-2014, 01:36 PM

Oh, it gets worse than that under Evangelical theology. When asked my Jesus was not "born in sin" because of Adam like all men/woman, I was told that Jesus remained sinless because only His mother was mortal.

I guess it turns out that only males must carry the "sin gene".;)

How sad that someone would say these things for it shows you don't understand about God at all. Mary was only a vessel, she didn't give Jesus anything, no DNA nothing, nada! Think of her as a surrogate, nothing more. This is why Mormonism is so wrong for you think Mary gave DNA or anything in the development of Jesus? Had Mary given anything, Jesus would have been born a girl. And since Mary was only a surrogate, and I know that Jesus is God, he was sinless! God can't justify sin of any kind so why would you even think Jesus was a sinner? Oh, how far you have fallen if this is Mormon theology.
Think back when Jesus was taken before Pilate. Pilate himself said he could find no sin in Jesus. Jesus, who knew no sin, was the only man to ever live a sinless life but only due to the fact that he was God! Not even Satan could tempt Jesus.

alanmolstad

03-11-2014, 01:39 PM

[SIZE=3]How sad that someone would say these things for it shows you don't understand about God at all. Mary was only a vessel, she didn't give Jesus anything, no DNA nothing, nada!
Im not so sure about all this.....

There is merit to the idea that Jesus got all his humanity from Mary.

alanmolstad

03-11-2014, 01:40 PM

RealFakeHair

03-11-2014, 02:09 PM

James Banta

03-11-2014, 02:49 PM

That is not what you said... Here is what you said before you decided you needed to backpedal.

Adam was the only man that sinned and until that day no sin existed before God..

Yes Adam was the only man that sinned.. Satan was an angel not a man so what I said was that Adam was the only man that sinned, I was telling the truth.. I have now said it over and over again but you refuse to understand.. I know what I said and you are trying to twist it.. I know the meaning of what was said I WROTE IT.. You can't come in behind me and tell me what my words mean when I stand up and say that you are wrong about how you see them.. I have told you what they mean that should be good enough for an intelligent person, now we shall see if you are one of us or not.. There is no backpedaling by me here.. There is just a man who has trouble understanding.. No one else has had trouble with my words.. IHS jim

alanmolstad

03-11-2014, 03:02 PM

Not sure what about the Genesis story or your post is so hard for The Way to understand?

neverending

03-11-2014, 03:47 PM

The MAN Christ Jesus...

see the deal is, unless Jesus is fully 100% human as I am, his resurrection is a moot point.

So Jesus has to be fully a normal 100% human.

This means that Jesus has to share our human history,,,our DNA.....everything.
The alternative is that Jesus only looked human....and that would make him a faker.
It would also mean that Jesus could never be able to call us "brothers"
For no matter what, he would always be different, always just a thing that "looked" like us, but was never really one of us.

But the Bible makes sure we understand that Jesus is our example.
If you want to know if God can raise a human back to life?..just look at the body of Jesus.
Jesus has a 100% human body...he shares our history, our DNA, everything that makes us.

That is why can can trust the God who raised Jesus to life to also be able to raise us to life in the same way.

Of course Jesus was a MAN!! Did he not have masculine parts? But God gave Jesus everything necessary for him to develop within Mary's womb. To think otherwise is to make God less then God and not capable of doing much of anything. I am sorry but I totally disagree with you. With your thinking, Eve should have been a man since she was made from one of Adam's ribs and would have all his DNA. Think about it.

alanmolstad

03-11-2014, 04:02 PM

well....in the same way all the human DNA of Eve was from Adam.....ther was no outside source of human Dna outside Adam for Eve and Mary for Jesus.

alanmolstad

03-11-2014, 04:07 PM

the moment you say that jesus got some of his human DNA from the Father you end up teaching Mormonism...

Phoenix

03-11-2014, 04:25 PM

I'd like to know what Adam and Eve have to do with this thread topic?
As far as I can tell, the first person to inject the topic of the Fall into this thread was someone named Jim Banta, who ****ed in when I had asked Alan this question:

They act, on average, like the average human being, and that causes you to think badly of them?

And Jim "answered" with this:

If you really believed that wouldn't you agree that the heart of man is deceitful ABOVE ALL things and desperately wicked? Instead of the LDS doctrine that other than the ability to have children and experience physical death the fall had no effect of us? IHS jim
So perhaps you should ask Jim Banta what that has to do with the thread topic. :)

And Phoenix, when Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden it made them mortal.
Correct. But to be precise, the Bible seems to imply that it was no longer having access to the fruit of the tree of immortality that made them mortal.

No, they didn't die then and there for we do know that Adam lived many centuries but they were made spiritually dead, separated from God.
I agree, as does LDS doctrine.

Also, Adam was over Eve, she was told to obey Adam by God, he took the fall for her, he should have been watching over her, she was his wife and wasn't it his *** to protect her?
That is an interesting idea you have there--that Adam took the "fall" for his wife. She was the guilty one, but he nobly accepted the responsibility for what she did. I have never thought of it quite that way before. Interesting.

Do you not believe that Eve was punished more harshly then Adam? To have to be pregnant, go through the pain of child birth, far worse in my opinion then to have to be a farmer.
I agree with you. Reminds me of a joke I heard today, though. Maybe I will tell it later.

And when you think about how the world is today, women work outside the home as well as keeping a home, bearing children and all the duties of being a wife. A woman's lot in life is very harsh. [/SIZE]
It definitely can be very harsh indeed.

Okay, here's the joke: It's often said that women have it worse than men because the pain of childbirth is worse than any pain a man could feel. But which pain is worse: A woman's childbirth pain, or a man's pain when he is kicked in the ___?
Answer: The man's pain. After all, a few years after having a baby, you will often hear a woman say she'd like to have another baby. But you will never, ever hear a man say he'd like to get kicked in the ___ again! :)

alanmolstad

03-11-2014, 04:35 PM

i trust i answered the question....

James Banta

03-11-2014, 05:33 PM

Not sure what about the Genesis story or your post is so hard for The Way to understand?

He wants Satan to be the first "man" that sinned.. I disagree with that.. I understand his complaint but but Satan is not human.. IHS jim

alanmolstad

03-11-2014, 05:42 PM

He wants Satan to be the first "man" that sinned.. I disagree with that.. I understand his complaint but but Satan is not human.. IHS jim

i have been looking into the connections the mormons have with Satan.. http://www.i4m.com/think/temples/temple_experience.htm

neverending

03-11-2014, 06:02 PM

As far as I can tell, the first person to inject the topic of the Fall into this thread was someone named Jim Banta, who ****ed in when I had asked Alan this question:

And Jim "answered" with this:

So perhaps you should ask Jim Banta what that has to do with the thread topic. :)

Correct. But to be precise, the Bible seems to imply that it was no longer having access to the fruit of the tree of immortality that made them mortal.

I agree, as does LDS doctrine.

That is an interesting idea you have there--that Adam took the "fall" for his wife. She was the guilty one, but he nobly accepted the responsibility for what she did. I have never thought of it quite that way before. Interesting.

I agree with you. Reminds me of a joke I heard today, though. Maybe I will tell it later.

It definitely can be very harsh indeed.

Okay, here's the joke: It's often said that women have it worse than men because the pain of childbirth is worse than any pain a man could feel. But which pain is worse: A woman's childbirth pain, or a man's pain when he is kicked in the ___?
Answer: The man's pain. After all, a few years after having a baby, you will often hear a woman say she'd like to have another baby. But you will never, ever hear a man say he'd like to get kicked in the ___ again! :)

Yes, I am sure getting kicked in a very sensitive area is not good and is painful but that pain lasts for a minute where as child birth lasts hours. Don't get me wrong, I always cringe when I've watched episodes of Funniest Home Videos. Ok, I see now how this tread got derailed and what can one do? It always seems to happen. Yep, I've done it now :) Oh, and I think Adam was the hero, to take the fall for Eve but then, since she was made from one of his ribs, I guess he felt the responsibility for her and was willing to except it and take the punishment. I still think that women got the short end of the stick.

theway

03-11-2014, 06:09 PM

How sad that someone would say these things for it shows you don't understand about God at all. Mary was only a vessel, she didn't give Jesus anything, no DNA nothing, nada! Think of her as a surrogate, nothing more. This is why Mormonism is so wrong for you think Mary gave DNA or anything in the development of Jesus? Had Mary given anything, Really?? So then whose blood was running through Christ's veins while He was a fetus?

You guys also like to say that that Christ was not of the same species as us, so then where did Christ get His humanity from? Or how could He be "fully man"

When you think about it, your views of who Christ is is rather sick, it makes it sound like He was born of one of His pets.

alanmolstad

03-11-2014, 06:14 PM

Really?? So then whose blood was running through Christ's veins while He was a fetus?

You guys also like to say that that Christ was not of the same species as us, so then where did Christ get His humanity from? Or how could He be "fully man"

a baby does not have its mothers blood inside it...the blood of an unborn and its mother do not mix

Phoenix

03-11-2014, 06:15 PM

Yes, I am sure getting kicked in a very sensitive area is not good and is painful but that pain lasts for a minute where as child birth lasts hours.
That is very true.

Don't get me wrong, I always cringe when I've watched episodes of Funniest Home Videos.
But you are right: within a few minutes, the guy is probably laughing with his friends about it. With one of our kids, my wife was in labor for something like 10 hours.

Ok, I see now how this tread got derailed and what can one do? It always seems to happen. Yep, I've done it now :) Oh, and I think Adam was the hero, to take the fall for Eve but then, since she was made from one of his ribs, I guess he felt the responsibility for her and was willing to except it and take the punishment. I still think that women got the short end of the stick.
No argument from me on any of that. :)

alanmolstad

03-11-2014, 06:18 PM

and Adam did not take the fall for his wife!

he actually tried to place all the blame on to her!!!!

in other words....Adam tried to have his wife killed

theway

03-11-2014, 06:24 PM

a baby does not have its mothers blood inside it...the blood of an unborn and its mother do not mix

I stand corrected...

However the rest of my comment remains...

Do you view Christ as a different species than us.

theway

03-11-2014, 06:25 PM

and Adam did not take the fall for his wife!

he actually tried to place all the blame on to her!!!!

in other words....Adam tried to have his wife killed
Once again, at that time he would have had no concept of what death was. So why would he have wanted her killed?

alanmolstad

03-11-2014, 06:39 PM

I stand corrected...

However the rest of my comment remains...

Do you view Christ as a different species than us.
see.......the reason you ask me that is that none of my posts to Neverending to correct her have been all that interesting to you to bother reading.....

alanmolstad

03-11-2014, 06:41 PM

Once again, at that time he would have had no concept of what death was. So why would he have wanted her killed?

i cant tell you what he was thinking!......

i can only tell what it says he did....and he knew eating was death....and so pointing to her as being the reason was attempting to have her killed

alanmolstad

03-11-2014, 07:36 PM

Once again, at that time he would have had no concept of what death was. So why would he have wanted her killed?

I hate posting with my phone, so let me try that again...

I dont know what Adam was thinking...I cant read his mind.
I cant tell you what he knew about stuff that is not recorded in the bible.
I only know what the text clearly shows us.
I only know what he did.

I read that Adam was told that if he ate he would die.
Adam ate.
When confronted by God, The same God that had already told him that eating meant death, Adam pointed right away to Eve as being to blame.

Adam was told eating meant death, yet he pointed to his wife as being to blame for his eating.

This is what he know for sure happend.
We also know that Adam did NOT try to "take the fall" for his wife, (an idea that Neverending has tried to tell you a few times, but it's very much in disagreement with the events in the story)

Not only did Adam not take the fall for his wife, he tried to pin the blame onto just her knowing full well because of God's law that the result of this would likely mean her death.

alanmolstad

03-11-2014, 07:40 PM

Oh, and another thing....

People that try to answer about the time it took Adam to die by saying, "Adam did die that day, but spiritually" are just fooling themselves if they think that is a good answer.

The "death" that Adam was warned about in the Law, was a death of the physical body.....It is the death that is later dished out by God in the whole speech about "by the sweat of your brow,... and the thistles" stuff.

That is the type of death God warned Adam he would suffer, and that is the death Adam did suffer.

It is also the type of death that Jesus had to also suffer to pay for the sin of Adam.

neverending

03-11-2014, 07:55 PM

see.......the reason you ask me that is that none of my posts to Neverending to correct her have been all that interesting to you to bother reading.....

alan, just what do you need to correct me about? And if you have a problem with anything I've said, it would be very adult of you to send me a private message. This comment makes you look very arrogant and you know, you are no better then anyone else!
Since there is so much that is unknown about Adam and Eve, there is much speculation flying around this thread. I think many people have their own ideas even if there is no scripture to back it up. All we need to know is that Eve was deceived by Satan to eat of the fruit. She then went to Adam and told him, at which time he ate the fruit too. When they discovered they were naked, Adam gathered fig leaves to cover their bodies and when God came calling, both Adam and Eve were hiding and embarr***ed. God discovered what they had done, was angry with them, cursed the snake and kicked Adam and Eve out of the garden where they had to fend for themselves; Eve had to have pain in bearing children and Adam had to work hard and sweat to provide. That's about it. The condensed version.

alanmolstad

03-11-2014, 08:05 PM

[SIZE=3] ......She then went to Adam and told him, ......

"Then went"???????

She went eh?

She had to track down the old husband then eh?

You know what it's like?....it's like you have not even read the story once in your life.
I think you make so many errors because you are simply unfamiliar with the events of the Genesis story....

alanmolstad

03-11-2014, 08:08 PM

..........God discovered what they had done, .......

God discovered something eh?

You think God learned this?...Your idea is that God "discovered" what they did?

Thats really what you think happened?
That is your idea of what God's nature is like?....he discovers things?

alanmolstad

03-11-2014, 08:11 PM

She then went to Adam and told him,

"Told him"???

Could you quote me what she told him?

I would like to see you try to do that...

alanmolstad

03-11-2014, 08:16 PM

Adam gathered fig leaves to cover their bodies

Adam did this?.....

So Adam went around and got a bunch of leaves for BOTH of them?.......

You think this is what the text actually says?

alanmolstad

03-11-2014, 08:17 PM

...... I think many people have their own ideas even if there is no scripture to back it up. .....

Oh I think we all see that very clearly....

James Banta

03-11-2014, 09:04 PM

[Phoenix;153587]So that same day that Eve ate the apple and then had Adam eat it next, that same day they both died? But doesn't the Bible say that Adam died like 930 years after the apple eating incident? (Genesis 5:5)

That would be a huge problem and contradiction of the Bible wouldn't? But Adam was cast out of the Garden dying spiritually. I really don't care who calls that spiritual death a belief of a simple mind it happens to be the only teaching that is consistent to the Bible.. Adam did live to be 930 years old so that was a few more days longer than what God said about his longevity if he ate the fruit.. Still Adam was forcefully separated from God that very day.. This doesn't require a doctoral degree to figure out.. It was a spiritual death Adam suffered when He ate the fruit..

The issue is whether humans were able to disobey God before Adam and Eve had all those children and grandchildren. Adam and Eve pretty much proved that it wasn't impossible for humans to disobey God, right from the beginning.

Of couese it was possible.. It comes down to Adam making a choice.. He didn't have to sin, sinning wasn't his nature. As to sin Adam had no compulsion to sin nor to be obedient. he was innocent in such decisions.. Since that time it hasn't been so.. Man is conceived a sinner.. If we tell even a child not to think of green Zebras the first thing he thinks of is green zebras. Adam would have said, ok and not bothered to disobey..

This proves that all us descendants of Adam and Eve had the ability to disobey God all by ourselves, regardless what the first two humans did. That is because each of us has the same freedom to make bad choices that Adam and Eve had. They proved that we didn't inherit some "sin" DNA from them. After all, if they could disobey God, then who put the sin DNA into them?
Yes we all have the ability to sin. Angels have the ability to sin.. The difference here is we don't have the ability to be obedient.. Given good and bad choices at some time in some way all the members of humanity will choose bad. I agree that our DNA has nothing to do with this this is a flaw common to all members of humanity. It is wired into our minds, our souls.. Even your BofM describes this fact.. "The nature man is an enemy of God". We are first born natural and then by faith in Jesus we are born again spiritual from above..

So you're claiming that only Adam's sin that counted, even though he was the second person to eat the fruit? Why would that be? How is that fair?

I claim that the Bible is true and Adam is pointed at in th Bible as being the one by whom sin entered the world.. Can you point to any verse that points at Eve as the person that brought sin into the world? I can't.. Show me what you can do..

".... as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death p***ed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Romans 5:12)..

Great verse it is supporting what I am saying here..

My point was merely that it's not Adam's fault that we sin. It's not Eve's fault, either, if that makes you feel any better.

And yet since that day Adam was ejected from the garden, not one man, woman, or child has been obedient to God. And that because we are under the curse of Adam brought into the world through His sin..

The verse could be saying that since Adam got here first, everything that happened afterward happened "by one man."

Then why has every one that has ever lived, sinned? It is because Adam and His wife were sinners and that is all their children could be.. We could call ducks swimmers. Why? Because swimming is their nature. And where did that nature come from? Their parents.. We are sinners for the same reason.. Our parents were sinners so we are sinners..

If Adam had never arrived on the scene, Eve wouldn't have either, since she was made from a piece of him, the Bible says. Through Adam, Eve happened, so through Adam, the first act of disobedience entered the human race. But that is irrelevant to the real point, which is that the myth of a "sin nature" that we all inherited from Adam is a myth. We sin because we choose to, not because Adam's sin forces us to. No one forced Adam to sin, and he didn't have an inherited sin nature. Do you disagree with that?

A sin nature doesn't force us to sin.. It instead in like that duck. We don't sin because of it.. A duck doesn't have to swim. They can survive without swimming but given the chance they will swim. We can live without sinning but given a choice we will sin.. The only way to explain that is it is our nature.. It is what we are sinners.. That is no myth.. It has shown it's self to be fact in ever single human life that has ever been lived.. Not one was without sin.. If it wasn't "Only Human" to sin them someone somewhere, at sometime would have lived a life without sin.. No one save Jesus has ever done so and He had no sin nature.. What you call a myth is far from myth it is fact.. IHS jim

alanmolstad

03-11-2014, 09:11 PM

it was not spiritual death!

that is an invented answer that is used because it "sounds" right......not because it is right

alanmolstad

03-11-2014, 09:15 PM

the death warned about in the law is the physical death god discribes later......same type of death

alanmolstad

03-11-2014, 09:23 PM

the death warned about in the "do not eat" law.....is the same type of death God talks about later when God lists the stuff about "sweat..."......and its the same type of death Adam does die........and the same type of death Jesus died....the same type i will die

--------------------------------------------------------------------
I posted the above with my phone, and its so hard to post stuff on that!

But I think the point I was getting at is that a lot of people think that have to come-up with a reason why Adam did not just drop over dead the moment he got caught eating from the tree.

So the reason that they invent is the well-known "He died Spiritually".

I simply think this answer is not the type of death the Bible is talking about.

The reason people come-up with this answer is that they are afraid that if their invented answer is not true that this means that the Text is in error.

So the Bible student feels this push to come up with an answer .

This answer that people have dreamed-up (that Adam did die right away but only "died Spiritually" ) is not based on the text at all, but rather is the result of what people see clearly as a contradiction that they hope to cover-over with a nice sounding answer.

I believe this is a very poor way to read the Bible.

I believe that well-meaning Bible students are reading the bible but then changing things to be what the person thinks the text "should say" rather than just reading the text for what it "does" say.

When you read the text as it appears you don't find any support for the "Died Spiritually" convenient answer that so many rely on to keep the Bible from appearing to contradict itself.

So, the death that Adam is warned about is the death that Jesus had to also die in order to redeem us from the type of death we suffer due to Adam.

Had the death Jesus died been different than the death that Adam was warned about and died from, then the cross would be a moot point.

So the death Jesus suffered was the common death we all die going all the way back to Adam and all the way back to the warning within that very first Law that God gave men...(Do not eat)

alanmolstad

03-12-2014, 06:49 AM

That would be a huge problem and contradiction of the Bible wouldn't? .......

Nope...
the contradiction is that people , including some very good Bible students, will on the one hand talk about the need to stick closely to the text as read,,,YET the moment they start dealing with Adam's death the same bible students will feel the need to invent their own answers that simply are not supported and even hinted at in the Text.

All this work just to escape a problem they think might happen if they don't come up with some sort of answer that sounds good.

neverending

03-12-2014, 08:25 AM

Oh I think we all see that very clearly....

alan, so you sit there, doing your best to make yourself look so good??? Shame you can't read. When I made my comment, if you had read it, I said it was a CONDENSED VERSION! Do you get it??? It was trying to explain Adam and Eve in a simple way, not trying to sound so wonderful and hey, I've been to Bible School so I know everything!! I ASKED YOU TO SEND ME A PRIVATE MESSAGE IF YOU HAD A PROBLEM BUT NO, NOT YOU! NO, YOU WANT TO DO EVERYTHING TO MAKE ME LOOK FOOLISH AND I TAKE OFFENSE TO THAT! You want to make an enemy of me, so be it!! You can go and play in the rush hour traffic! And you want to report me to Jill, feel free for I don't give a rat's behind if she banned me from this forum of arrogant, self righteous know it all's. If I had had my breakfast already, I'd be off puking after reading your RUDE comments!! I wish you'd go find some other place to be rude for your not welcome here in my book! ****!!

alanmolstad

03-12-2014, 08:44 AM

Notice how importnt my words look in all CAPS!

James Banta

03-12-2014, 08:46 AM

alan, so you sit there, doing your best to make yourself look so good??? Shame you can't read. When I made my comment, if you had read it, I said it was a CONDENSED VERSION! Do you get it??? It was trying to explain Adam and Eve in a simple way, not trying to sound so wonderful and hey, I've been to Bible School so I know everything!! I ASKED YOU TO SEND ME A PRIVATE MESSAGE IF YOU HAD A PROBLEM BUT NO, NOT YOU! NO, YOU WANT TO DO EVERYTHING TO MAKE ME LOOK FOOLISH AND I TAKE OFFENSE TO THAT! You want to make an enemy of me, so be it!! You can go and play in the rush hour traffic! And you want to report me to Jill, feel free for I don't give a rat's behind if she banned me from this forum of arrogant, self righteous know it all's. If I had had my breakfast already, I'd be off puking after reading your RUDE comments!! I wish you'd go find some other place to be rude for your not welcome here in my book! ****!!

I am sorry you are having such a bad experience here.. I don't see why it seem necessary to slam other Christian posters.. It's one thing when the LDS do it but I understand it is extra hard to get it from someone that says they are a brother.. I am not here to do so, so I will let such posters be and go on myself to show the truth of Jesus to the lost.. They still need to see and understand that the Lord our God is one Lord. That the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three separate individuals but they are one God. One in nature, in purpose and one in their very BEING.. It is not questionable as God revealed to Moses that the Lord our God in ONE LORD.. Jesus confirmed that so to believe any man that comes out teaching that we have three Gods and who can contradict it when Jesus clearly does contradict it is on a fools errand. Again I am sorry this has been going on here, I will always be there for you and on your side in all matters.. IHS jim

Zeus

03-12-2014, 10:57 AM

I am sorry you are having such a bad experience here.. I don't see why it seem necessary to slam other Christian posters.. It's one thing when the LDS do it but I understand it is extra hard to get it from someone that says they are a brother.. I am not here to do so, so I will let such posters be and go on myself to show the truth of Jesus to the lost.. They still need to see and understand that the Lord our God is one Lord. That the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three separate individuals but they are one God. One in nature, in purpose and one in their very BEING.. It is not questionable as God revealed to Moses that the Lord our God in ONE LORD.. Jesus confirmed that so to believe any man that comes out teaching that we have three Gods and who can contradict it when Jesus clearly does contradict it is on a fools errand. Again I am sorry this has been going on here, I will always be there for you and on your side in all matters.. IHS jim

It seems kind of strange that the only regular posters are alan, neverending, and James. As I understand it, James and neverending are married. So we have alan and neverending arguing with each other and calling each other names. And James apparently trying to keep the peace, but in a weird way since he doesn't need to type to us on the forum the things he could say to his wife in private.

So this is what the "Mormonism" forum of WM has become?

alanmolstad

03-12-2014, 11:06 AM

Oh I dont mind any of that...

RealFakeHair

03-12-2014, 12:52 PM

It seems kind of strange that the only regular posters are alan, neverending, and James. As I understand it, James and neverending are married. So we have alan and neverending arguing with each other and calling each other names. And James apparently trying to keep the peace, but in a weird way since he doesn't need to type to us on the forum the things he could say to his wife in private.

So this is what the "Mormonism" forum of WM has become?

A family emailing together stays together, so sweet.

alanmolstad

03-12-2014, 01:02 PM

A family emailing together stays together, so sweet.
I know a couple that enjoys "facebook date Night", where the wife is at one end of the couch and the husband is at the other, and they text each other and ask questions ...

neverending

03-12-2014, 01:24 PM

I know a couple that enjoys "facebook date Night", where the wife is at one end of the couch and the husband is at the other, and they text each other and ask questions ...

Because of your lack of respect for me as a woman and a sister in Christ, you have created a hostile forum. You may think your comments are funny but I hope others can see how rude they are and not pay any attention to you. Have a good life for you have chased me away and I think that was your plan all along. Apologette won't come here anymore so pat yourself on the back alan. I really feel sorry for you for you can't see what I do and many others.

RealFakeHair

03-12-2014, 01:52 PM

I know a couple that enjoys "facebook date Night", where the wife is at one end of the couch and the husband is at the other, and they text each other and ask questions ...

One must know when it' time, and I think it is time.
Now back to LDSinc. and the Imaginary mind of Joseph Smith jr.

neverending

03-12-2014, 01:55 PM

RFH: some of your comments I've chuckled at but this was NOT funny but rude! Maybe you should try being serious for a change.

RealFakeHair

03-12-2014, 02:21 PM

RFH: some of your comments I've chuckled at but this was NOT funny but rude! Maybe you should try being serious for a change.
Oh, well, I was trying to put a stop to all this, and move on, so let hope so.

Zeus

03-12-2014, 05:21 PM

Because of your lack of respect for me as a woman and a sister in Christ, you have created a hostile forum. You may think your comments are funny but I hope others can see how rude they are and not pay any attention to you. Have a good life for you have chased me away and I think that was your plan all along. Apologette won't come here anymore so pat yourself on the back alan. I really feel sorry for you for you can't see what I do and many others.

What happened to Apologette? Did she say she was leaving?

James Banta

03-12-2014, 07:59 PM

What happened to Apologette? Did she say she was leaving?

I don't believe she thought she needed to ask us whether or not she could be here or leave.. It's a free forum.. IHS jim

Zeus

03-12-2014, 08:28 PM

I don't believe she thought she needed to ask us whether or not she could be here or leave.. It's a free forum.. IHS jim

Of course it is. I was wondering if she actually stated to neverending her intentions to not return.

Please don't feel the need to be so argumentative, James, when my question was addressed to neverending.

alanmolstad

03-12-2014, 08:51 PM

The reason so many Bible students feel the need to invent the idea that when Adam died he did so "spiritually" is that the Bible student feels that there must be some reason why Adam lived as long as he did, given the the Bible states the Law as saying that the "day" anyone ate they would die.

That's the dilemma some people think the Bible has going there.

The bible student wants to maintain the idea that the Bible has no contradictions, and so when the student runs smack into the fact that the Bible teaches that anyone who eats will die that very "day" and the fact that Adam ate and yet lived for hundreds of years, they see a problem.

The fact is that the idea of Adam dieing "spiritually" is not talked about in the Law or in the account of the fall, yet only because its an answer that seems to fit and sounds right, is that answer brought up and pushed as if it's the only correct answer.

I admit, this "He died Spiritually" is a handy invented answer.
Yes, it may not fit the context and has nothing to do with any thing written in the story, but it does keep some bible students happy.

They feel happy because they have patched what they think was a HUGE hole in the text.

They have "saved" the bible from looking bad!

But the trouble is, that is not the correct way to read the bible.
You should never look at a verse and try to make it "fit" with what you want it to say.
And, if you think that your Holy Book is written that poorly right at the very start it needs to have invented answers tossed into it to make it work?, then you clearly got the wrong Holy Book in your hands.

So whats the answer?

Do we actually need to use this invented answer of "Adam did die that day, just spiritually" in order to save the bible from clearly being contradictory?......no.

No?.....
The answer is No.

The answer to this is to back up and notice that the only word that is the source of the trouble within the story is this one little word "day"

People look at the word "day" and right away give it the meaning of "24 hours"
Once they have replaced the word "day" with the meaning of "24 hours" they are stuck in a clear dilemma because Adam did not die within the allowed "24 hours">
This is when the bible student will add to the story the idea of "Adam Died Spiritually" to the story to escape the dilemma.

However all you have to do is point out that the actual answer to their dilemma is found at Genesis 2:4

James Banta

03-13-2014, 09:40 AM

Of course it is. I was wondering if she actually stated to neverending her intentions to not return.

Please don't feel the need to be so argumentative, James, when my question was addressed to neverending.

I can answer for NE.. She received no correspondence from Apologette.. You may send her (Apologette) an email and ask her yourself.. You may also leave NE totally alone.. She doesn't want to talk to anyone here any longer.. This is due to the rudeness she felt from Allen.. Allen she can take attacks from the LDS here but not from those who should be her brothers and sisters, no.. IHS jim

James Banta

03-13-2014, 09:45 AM

It seems kind of strange that the only regular posters are alan, neverending, and James. As I understand it, James and neverending are married. So we have alan and neverending arguing with each other and calling each other names. And James apparently trying to keep the peace, but in a weird way since he doesn't need to type to us on the forum the things he could say to his wife in private.

So this is what the "Mormonism" forum of WM has become?

Participation here ebbs and flows. When posting ebbs.. We await the time when it flows again.. It will.. IHS jim

James Banta

03-13-2014, 09:55 AM

Nope...
the contradiction is that people , including some very good Bible students, will on the one hand talk about the need to stick closely to the text as read,,,YET the moment they start dealing with Adam's death the same bible students will feel the need to invent their own answers that simply are not supported and even hinted at in the Text.

All this work just to escape a problem they think might happen if they don't come up with some sort of answer that sounds good.

What can I say.. We could do an "Is So, Is not" argument on this all day.. Does it matter to our salvation? Must I believe that God promised Physical death to Adam in order to be saved. Must you believe that the death God promised was issued on the very day the sin was commited? NOPE.. As I read the Bible it all about Jesus. All He did for us in taking on humanity and dying that we might live.. I will not stop believing that Adam died spiritually that very day as sin fill filled his heart and p***ed that nature on to all the rest of us.. You can see something different there, then believe it teach it but always keep your eyes on Jesus.. IHS jim

alanmolstad

03-13-2014, 10:02 AM

The law that Adam broke, and it's "death" had to be paid for on the cross...

The death that Adam suffered had to be the same type Jesus suffered too, or else something is left out and not covered by the blood of Christ.

the "he died spiritually" idea is only popular and talked about because of the need people feel to insert it into the story due to only one reason.....The "day" problem.

But as I have pointed out at genesis 2:4, the use of the term "day" in the same book of Genesis does not have a mandated meaning of only 24hours at all.....and it never did.

Zeus

03-13-2014, 10:44 AM

I can answer for NE..

Okay.

She received no correspondence from Apologette.. You may send her (Apologette) an email and ask her yourself..

Okay. It sounded like she had when she stated, "you have chased me away ...Apologette won't come here anymore..."

You may also leave NE totally alone..

Well, if she is no longer posting here then I have no reason to talk with her, obviously.

She doesn't want to talk to anyone here any longer..

It happens.

This is due to the rudeness she felt from Allen..

No need to continue to air dirty laundry. But I must say that having read many exchanges between neverending and alan, she wasn't exactly a beacon of civility and charm toward him or others either. It could be a case of dishing it out but not being able to take it from my view.

she can take attacks from the LDS here but not from those who should be her brothers and sisters, no.. IHS jim

Sounds like personal issues that you guys should work out off the forum.

Zeus

03-13-2014, 10:50 AM

Participation here ebbs and flows. When posting ebbs.. We await the time when it flows again.. It will.. IHS jim

I've never seen it flow.

At this point I see you and alan arguing with each other over interpretations of the fall. Neverending has left for personal issues with Alan, Apologette is said to not be coming back, RealFakeHair posts a quip here and there that doesn't usually add any insight to a topic.

That's about it. Not a whole lot more going on here, and given this is the only forum on the Walter Martin site that gets any attention, it appears this place is reminiscent of a morgue.

alanmolstad

03-13-2014, 11:07 AM

in other words....I have a clear stage and a captive audience?.....
(ahh, my dream come true)

The difference with different forums that im a member of is that on a lot of forums I post something, then return to the forum about 3 hours later and my post is totally forgotten and no one got a chance to read it.
Thats what too much foot traffic does, it buries our posts underneath a lot of other silly posts.....

I like the chance to stretch my theological legs here on the Walter Martin Forum and really try to write things down that come from my heart.

and its also nice to know that while my posts might not get read by many people, they will yet still really to sink-in to the one or two who read them .......sink-in deeply, .....(very deeply it would appear..LOL)

Zeus

03-13-2014, 11:13 AM

alanmolstad

03-13-2014, 11:16 AM

I also like the idea that no one has their posts overlooked on this forum.

If any of us post an comment, it gets read....its not pushed off to the side.

If you post it, I read it.

I also like the fact that we dont have guys who cuss and swear here, or go around breaking the rules we all try to conform to...

I know....that perhaps on the outside a guy looking at our forum here might say, "It's kinda dead"
But I don't think we should be ashamed of that at all.

I remember when Jesus was preaching to thousands of people one moment, and in the next moment the huge crowd left him disgusted ....Jesus was suddenly down to just his little band of guys once again.
I'm sure on the outside that must have been kinda discouraging to some of the guys...

But Jesus was never a guy who could catch and hold the big crowds...

Jesus is more likely found within the gatherings of only 2 or 3 people

alanmolstad

03-13-2014, 11:18 AM

You seem quite proud of your posts. If you are looking for a platform to share your nuggets of thoughts, why not just create your own blog or website? .
well,,...suddenly that sounds like a lot of work.....

I post for fun,,,,,but mostly because its no work at all...

I would hate for this to turn into a ***...LOL

Tell you what, if you start your own website, I promise to visit and spark a few conversations

alanmolstad

03-13-2014, 11:20 AM

......money ......

We are all guests here.
So we all enjoy the opportunity to come here and exchange views on many topics.
But the decision to start this website and keep it going is not really up to us, nor does our being here effect it one way or the other.

We all thank the owner...we should tell her we all enjoy the opportunity...and we should follow the rules as given us to follow.

alanmolstad

03-13-2014, 11:24 AM

As it is, you sound like you are content with running people off ....It is impossable for me to "run" anyone off of anything.

My posts are always respectful and well thought out.
I point out things that I notice, I challenge people with questions, but i never call names, I dont tell people what to do, and I never tell people to be quiet.

I believe my reputation on this website is that i dont play favorites, im not on any team....I dont really cover-up stuff that people do just because i share a few views with them....

In other words, I treat people completely equal....Mormon, Christian non-believer,, it does not matter to me what they are as i will always treat them the same......as the Golden Rule leads.

What more can we ask of each other?

alanmolstad

03-13-2014, 11:38 AM

You seem quite proud of your posts. ..yes, I stand behind my comments recorded here.

But I also seek to have my views challenged to see if anyone can poke holes in my views.
That is part of the give and take of these types of forums.

I have posted a great many things here....if there is anything you have a question about, if I have posted an idea of a comment you call into question, then ask me to return to that subject and make more my answer more clear.

RealFakeHair

03-13-2014, 12:12 PM

yes, I stand behind my comments recorded here.

But I also seek to have my views challenged to see if anyone can poke holes in my views.
That is part of the give and take of these types of forums.

I have posted a great many things here....if there is anything you have a question about, if I have posted an idea of a comment you call into question, then ask me to return to that subject and make more my answer more clear.

I never try and close down anyone's idea or thoughts, because my own are superior to all others. I do come here and other sites on the pretense of perhaps of being wrong.

alanmolstad

03-14-2014, 08:51 AM

Phoenix

03-14-2014, 04:31 PM

i would hope that in the future that a person could be able to drop their name off the MORMON membership list on their home computer.....

So rather than needing to write a letter the person can just go "click-click" with their computer mouse and be done with ever needing to deal with other Mormons.

Then the same system could be used for terminating one's membership in any church anywhere. And for terminating one's U.S. citizenship, or one's credit cards and magazine subscriptions. All without verification of the person's ID and true intentions. So a mischievous neighborhood kid could mess around on your computer while he's visiting, and end your membership in your church, your citizenship, etc.

Are you sure your idea has been thought through?

Erundur

03-14-2014, 07:02 PM

So a mischievous neighborhood kid could mess around on your computer while he's visiting, and end your membership in your church, your citizenship, etc.
Or an anti-Mormon "ministry" could get hold of a ward directory and resign an entire ward at once...

James Banta

03-14-2014, 08:40 PM

Or an anti-Mormon "ministry" could get hold of a ward directory and resign an entire ward at once...

Looks to me as though the LDS church has safe guards in place for a non authorized person making such a request.. After the request is confirmed there shouldn't be any delay in conforming to the wishes of those that wish to resign.. IHS jim

alanmolstad

03-14-2014, 08:54 PM

Then the same system could be used for terminating one's membership in any church anywhere. And for terminating one's U.S. citizenship, or one's credit cards and magazine subscriptions. All without verification Kinda ****ing that out of proportion...but if you log-on with the normal p***word that only you know...I dont see a problem.
Cutting connections with a CULT should be always easy to do so we can help save people.

as far as resigning from the whole country?...well, I think you should be able to, but you have to make sure you pay any debts to the country you owe....

James Banta

03-14-2014, 08:58 PM

I've never seen it flow.

At this point I see you and alan arguing with each other over interpretations of the fall. Neverending has left for personal issues with Alan, Apologette is said to not be coming back, RealFakeHair posts a quip here and there that doesn't usually add any insight to a topic.

That's about it. Not a whole lot more going on here, and given this is the only forum on the Walter Martin site that gets any attention, it appears this place is reminiscent of a morgue.

UNLIKE ALLEN I DON'T COME HERE FOR THE FUN OF IT. I COME HERE FOR MINISTRY.. If others don't wish to include themselves in ministry they shouldn't post here.. I am not the Holy Spirit so I don't judge them for what they do or don't do.. As our LDS members are banned from CARM they come back here and the discussion grows. When they can post on CARM they do so and we ebb here.. I like WM so I stay here.. If you don't you can leave any time you wish.. CARM has some solid Christian posters that can correct the unbiblical LDS perversions that are taught and held by the church.. Here there are fewer of us to stand up for truth.. If you need more comments on the same subjects by all means go to CARM.. IHS jim

alanmolstad

03-14-2014, 09:10 PM

UNLIKE ALLEN I DON'T COME HERE FOR THE FUN OF IT. .....well that's cool....must be kinda disappointing to run into us guys like me then....

oh well.....
(In my defense I do like kittens)

alanmolstad

03-14-2014, 09:15 PM

UNLIKE ALLEN .....

on a side note:

I was named after a Hollywood actor named "Alan Ladd"

alanmolstad

03-14-2014, 09:17 PM

My dad wanted me to be named after the famous guy who died young, "James DEAN".......as you can see Dad lost that one.

alanmolstad

03-14-2014, 09:26 PM

and....I really do have a lot of fun here...

alanmolstad

03-15-2014, 05:29 AM

What happened to Apologette? Did she say she was leaving?
Rumors of her death are greatly exaggerated...I see whole new topics by her...

Apologette

03-15-2014, 08:53 AM

UNLIKE ALLEN I DON'T COME HERE FOR THE FUN OF IT. I COME HERE FOR MINISTRY.. If others don't wish to include themselves in ministry they shouldn't post here.. I am not the Holy Spirit so I don't judge them for what they do or don't do.. As our LDS members are banned from CARM they come back here and the discussion grows. When they can post on CARM they do so and we ebb here.. I like WM so I stay here.. If you don't you can leave any time you wish.. CARM has some solid Christian posters that can correct the unbiblical LDS perversions that are taught and held by the church.. Here there are fewer of us to stand up for truth.. If you need more comments on the same subjects by all means go to CARM.. IHS jim
Quite true, the worst of the Mormons come here when banned from CARM. I find it helpful to not even engage in their rage and mockery. It only feeds the demonic source. Better to post information here for those searching for answers!

Apologette

03-15-2014, 09:06 AM

Rumors of her death are greatly exaggerated...I see whole new topics by her...

Alive and kicking, pretty much to the chagrin of these Mormons! We have one Mormon on CARM, Apollos, badmouthing some of the sick among the Christians, suggesting that sickness is a result of being a Christian who is anti-Mormonism. How morally challenged does a person have to be to post something as sick as that? The truth of the matter is that there are far more Christians on CARM than Mormons, and sometimes they get ill or have relapses. Fortunately, the Lord God, the Blessed Trinity, has blessed me with good health, as well as our family. This obviously doesn't fit into Apollos's (Sir on WM) theory. I've told Sir/Apollos that his evil wishes for ill health for Christian posters is similar to a curse and will rebound upon him two fold!

But it shall come to p***, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee. Deut. 22:15

Pay back into the laps of our neighbors seven times the contempt they have hurled at you, Lord. Ps. 79:12

I should have said, seven fold. Mormons should be cautious about cursing Christians, or wishing Christians ill (or mocking those who are sick, as did this fellow) - for the curse rebounds seven-fold on themselves. And let me tell you folks, Joe Smith got pleasure from cursing his enemies - and he is an example of one who fell victim to those curses rebounding on his own person:

"While in prison, Smith prophesied that "cursed are all those that shall lift up the heel against mine anointed." (Wikipedia)

Smith claimed to be "the anointed," but he was never anointed by God, and the curse rebounded upon the curser!

Zeus

03-15-2014, 10:11 AM

Alive and kicking, pretty much to the chagrin of these Mormons! We have one Mormon on CARM, Apollos, badmouthing some of the sick among the Christians, suggesting that sickness is a result of being a Christian who is anti-Mormonism. How morally challenged does a person have to be to post something as sick as that? The truth of the matter is that there are far more Christians on CARM than Mormons, and sometimes they get ill or have relapses. Fortunately, the Lord God, the Blessed Trinity, has blessed me with good health, as well as our family. This obviously doesn't fit into Apollos's (Sir on WM) theory. I've told Sir/Apollos that his evil wishes for ill health for Christian posters is similar to a curse and will rebound upon him two fold!

But it shall come to p***, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee. Deut. 22:15

Pay back into the laps of our neighbors seven times the contempt they have hurled at you, Lord. Ps. 79:12

I should have said, seven fold. Mormons should be cautious about cursing Christians, or wishing Christians ill (or mocking those who are sick, as did this fellow) - for the curse rebounds seven-fold on themselves. And let me tell you folks, Joe Smith got pleasure from cursing his enemies - and he is an example of one who fell victim to those curses rebounding on his own person:

"While in prison, Smith prophesied that "cursed are all those that shall lift up the heel against mine anointed." (Wikipedia)

Smith claimed to be "the anointed," but he was never anointed by God, and the curse rebounded upon the curser!

Apologette, Did that Mormon "Apollos" really wish and curse Christians with sickness? Do you have a link to where he did that?

Zeus

03-15-2014, 10:16 AM

Quite true, the worst of the Mormons come here when banned from CARM. I find it helpful to not even engage in their rage and mockery. It only feeds the demonic source. Better to post information here for those searching for answers!

What "worst of the Mormons" are posting here that have been banned from CARM? There doesn't seem to be any Mormons posting here except for a couple.

RealFakeHair

03-15-2014, 10:32 AM

What "worst of the Mormons" are posting here that have been banned from CARM? There doesn't seem to be any Mormons posting here except for a couple.

That is because over here they don't get away with expounding Joseph Smith jr. imaginary mind.

James Banta

03-15-2014, 03:46 PM

[alanmolstad;153767]well that's cool....must be kinda disappointing to run into us guys like me then....

It is, and you have slide a lot i my eyes in complerely using the name of God without reason.. That is in VAIN..

oh well.....
(In my defense I do like kittens)

And again we disagree I don't like them in the city, they are farm animals.. IHS jim

Erundur

03-15-2014, 08:25 PM

Looks to me as though the LDS church has safe guards in place for a non authorized person making such a request..
Yep, and it would be a bad idea to remove them, as anti-Mormons demand.

James Banta

03-16-2014, 08:11 AM

Yep, and it would be a bad idea to remove them, as anti-Mormons demand.

It would be just as much a bad idea to remove them as it is to have bishops or his superiors to delay the proceedings of the requests.. So what we have today isn't the removal of the proceadures but an artificial delay of the LDS clinging to the names of members by the long delays that are artificially installed in the process.. Which one is worse? They are equally evil.. IHS jim

Erundur

03-16-2014, 09:31 AM

It would be just as much a bad idea to remove them as it is to have bishops or his superiors to delay the proceedings of the requests.. So what we have today isn't the removal of the proceadures but an artificial delay of the LDS clinging to the names of members by the long delays that are artificially installed in the process.. Which one is worse? They are equally evil..
A 30-day cooling-off period is hardly a "long delay," and to call it "evil" is just ridiculous.

James Banta

03-16-2014, 03:37 PM

A 30-day cooling-off period is hardly a "long delay," and to call it "evil" is just ridiculous.

If Bishops/Stake Presidents all kept it to a 30 Day cooling off period that would be fine.. Sadly it has been know to take years not months and not days to have a name removed.. I call that evil.. It's removing free agency from the individual and take it for the LDS authority instead.. Wasn't that Satan's plan? Isn't he evil? Then when someone forces another person to remain in the LDS church they are committing evil.. IHS jim

Erundur

03-16-2014, 06:02 PM

I call that evil..
I call that silly.

It's removing free agency from the individual and take it for the LDS authority instead..
I don't think you know what "free agency" means.

James Banta

03-16-2014, 08:53 PM

[Erundur;153804]I call that silly.

With a remark like that this could descend in to a volley of personal attacks.. I won't allow that.. I call taking the decision onto one's self for another adult person evil.. Maybe that is from my days of being LDS where I believes each man is responsible for what they do and if forced to do what someone else dictates as evil.. Sure doesn't fall down to the short reach of silliness.. One would have to not understand right from wrong to fail to make the distinction..

I don't think you know what "free agency" means.

After reading the above can you still say that? Somehow I think your pride will demand that you can.. IHS jim

theway

03-16-2014, 09:42 PM

Quite true, the worst of the Mormons come here when banned from CARM. I find it helpful to not even engage in their rage and mockery. It only feeds the demonic source. Better to post information here for those searching for answers!LOL... you are the one who bugs the Moderators until you get them banned. Then when you run out of your two complaint allotment for the day, you PM all the others AntiMormons to join you and use up their complaint allotment on the people you dislike. All the while pretending you have everyone on ignore. In fact, you end up so embarr***ed by Daniel calling you on all your nonsense that you never allow him to last the day.

It really is a comedy act.

Phoenix

03-16-2014, 11:41 PM

I call taking the decision onto one's self for another adult person evil.
You mean like removing a member from the membership rolls merely because the member hasn't been to church for a few weeks or months?

That is what some people claim their church does, and claim it's a good thing, and are demanding that the LDS do it.

In my ward, a lady hadn't come to church for over a year--perhaps several years. She recently started coming to church again. When she heard that the relief society and the missionaries had a list of inactive members whose names were soon to be removed from the rolls, she got alarmed and upset.

She said "If anyone would have done that to me during the time I wasn't attending church, I would have been very angry. How do they know that I no longer believe the doctrines? How do they know I want my name removed?"

Then it was explained to her that the only members whose names were being removed, were members who had told us that's what they wanted--it's what they had demanded, actually. Then she was okay with what we were doing.

And that is why we don't automatically remove the names of people who have quit attending church. To do it without being told that's what they want, to just ***ume that was what they wanted, would be like taking their freedom to choose away. We'd be taking away their freedom to choose to stop attending for a while but to still remain a member.

Apologette

03-17-2014, 08:23 AM

LOL... you are the one who bugs the Moderators until you get them banned. Then when you run out of your two complaint allotment for the day, you PM all the others AntiMormons to join you and use up their complaint allotment on the people you dislike. All the while pretending you have everyone on ignore. In fact, you end up so embarr***ed by Daniel calling you on all your nonsense that you never allow him to last the day.

It really is a comedy act. Oh, are you banned. I certainly hope so. If you can't keep the rules, then you shouldn't be posting NOTtheway (and never was).

alanmolstad

03-17-2014, 08:25 AM

perhaps such topics are not really something we should get into here.

with PLENTY of real topics about religious teachings and things that go on all over the world, perhaps we might search for something to talk about that does not lead to all the personal stuff?

Apologette

03-17-2014, 08:25 AM

I call that silly.

I don't think you know what "free agency" means. "Free agency," an archaic word for free will. There is no free will for fallen human beings since they are under the sway of Satan, subject to the one who holds captive their wills - Satan. One of the greatest evidences of this is how Mormons post - their posts clearly express their disdain of the Body of Christ and total denial of the Gospel of grace. They not only deny the Lord Jesus Christ, they seek to replace Him.

alanmolstad

03-17-2014, 08:27 AM

"Free agency," an archaic word for free will. the term "free agency" comes up a lot when I debate with a calvinist...

They are against my views of "free Will" but they do have a view of the term "Free Agency" is is a lot like what I mean for "Free Will"

Apologette

03-17-2014, 08:27 AM

alanmolstad

03-17-2014, 08:30 AM

If I'm challenged - especially by some Mormon - I'll respond. You are free to do the same.
....you set a better example if you do not respond in kind....
Remember to act as your Master instructed you to do.

Erundur

03-17-2014, 11:51 AM

I call taking the decision onto one's self for another adult person evil.. Maybe that is from my days of being LDS where I believes each man is responsible for what they do and if forced to do what someone else dictates as evil..
That's just bizarre. No one is forcing anyone to do anything, except the anti-Mormons who are trying to force us to change our resignation procedures. I'm willing to call that evil instead of silly if it will make you happier.

After reading the above can you still say that?
Yes.

One would have to not understand right from wrong to fail to make the distinction..

Somehow I think your pride will demand that you can..
Gee, it's a good thing you're not allowing this to descend into a volley of personal attacks, isn't it?

James Banta

03-17-2014, 11:52 AM

You mean like removing a member from the membership rolls merely because the member hasn't been to church for a few weeks or months?

That is what some people claim their church does, and claim it's a good thing, and are demanding that the LDS do it.

In my ward, a lady hadn't come to church for over a year--perhaps several years. She recently started coming to church again. When she heard that the relief society and the missionaries had a list of inactive members whose names were soon to be removed from the rolls, she got alarmed and upset.

She said "If anyone would have done that to me during the time I wasn't attending church, I would have been very angry. How do they know that I no longer believe the doctrines? How do they know I want my name removed?"

Then it was explained to her that the only members whose names were being removed, were members who had told us that's what they wanted--it's what they had demanded, actually. Then she was okay with what we were doing.

And that is why we don't automatically remove the names of people who have quit attending church. To do it without being told that's what they want, to just ***ume that was what they wanted, would be like taking their freedom to choose away. We'd be taking away their freedom to choose to stop attending for a while but to still remain a member.

Who here is asking that the LDS church removes inactive members from it's rolls? Yes we do that in Christian churches, but I am not asking that you do the same.. All I ask is that in a timely manner those who have asked to have their names removed have their names removed without months or even years of delay.. IHS jim

Erundur

03-17-2014, 11:54 AM

There is no free will for fallen human beings since they are under the sway of Satan, subject to the one who holds captive their wills - Satan.
Great, then obviously I'm not a fallen human being under the sway of Satan.

They not only deny the Lord Jesus Christ, they seek to replace Him.
So you lie.

neverending

03-17-2014, 11:58 AM

You mean like removing a member from the membership rolls merely because the member hasn't been to church for a few weeks or months?

That is what some people claim their church does, and claim it's a good thing, and are demanding that the LDS do it.

In my ward, a lady hadn't come to church for over a year--perhaps several years. She recently started coming to church again. When she heard that the relief society and the missionaries had a list of inactive members whose names were soon to be removed from the rolls, she got alarmed and upset.

She said "If anyone would have done that to me during the time I wasn't attending church, I would have been very angry. How do they know that I no longer believe the doctrines? How do they know I want my name removed?"

Then it was explained to her that the only members whose names were being removed, were members who had told us that's what they wanted--it's what they had demanded, actually. Then she was okay with what we were doing.

And that is why we don't automatically remove the names of people who have quit attending church. To do it without being told that's what they want, to just ***ume that was what they wanted, would be like taking their freedom to choose away. We'd be taking away their freedom to choose to stop attending for a while but to still remain a member.

What then does the LDS Church do with the jack Mormons who haven't been to a Sacrament Meeting in decades? Take my brother for an example. He stopped going to church when he was 17, at which time he began smoking and drinking, got his girlfriend pregnant, had to get married and has never had a desire to go to church. If you ask him what religion he is, he'll say....."I'm a Mormon" even though he has told me he doesn't believe in the Bible, or God. So, why hasn't your church kicked him out? Because he is part of your 15 million members even though the majority of them don't attend church but are jack Mormons like my brother.

James Banta

03-17-2014, 12:23 PM

Great, then obviously I'm not a fallen human being under the sway of Satan.

So you lie.

The BofM teaches that the natural man is an enemy of God.. Please tell us all what a natural man is? My flesh is natural and is engrossed in sin. Like Paul thatwhich is good and I wish to do I don't do, but that which is evil and I wish not to do THAT I DO (Romans 7:19).. We speck here from spiritual grounds not from the desires of our hearts as you do. You call such speech LIES. We don't say that you are lying we just know from the authority of the Bible that you are wrong..

Has mormonism replaced the Lord Jesus Christ? In the Bible He is proclaimed to be God (John 1:1). He is called the everlasting Father (Isaiah 9:6). The Bible DEMANDS that the Lord our God is one LORD (Deut 6:4) Jesus confirmed that He is the "I AM", the one and only true and living God (John 8:58).. The Lord, He who knows all things has told us that He doesn't know of any other God other than Himself (Isaiah 44:8).. He has told us that there has never be any other God form not before He and not after Him (Isaiah 43:10). God has told us that He has always been God, and will always be God (Psalm 90:2).. Does mormonism teach a different God that that? I won't go into the full doctrine of eternal progression here only to quote Joseph Smith on the issue.

It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, ...and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; ...you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done (History of the Church, Vol. 6, Ch. 14, p. 305)

Just to show that such a teaching is official LDS church doctrine I will also show that in the LDS scriptures the word for the creator of all thing is called Gods not God..

BofA 4:3
And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light; and there was light.

The LDS Jesus is just one of many Gods.. The Bible teaches that God is one Lord.. LDS Doctrine therefore denies and attepmts to replace the God of the Bible with the Gods of Joseph Smith.. IHS jim

alanmolstad

03-17-2014, 04:13 PM

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/...ovalletter.htm

This link will help you out

Phoenix

03-18-2014, 08:57 PM

[SIZE=3]What then does the LDS Church do with the jack Mormons who haven't been to a Sacrament Meeting in decades?
The church does what it thinks the person wants, based on whatever instructions the person has provided to the church. In many cases, the person just quits attending but doesn't give the church a reason why, and doesn't say what he wants the church to do with his records, so the church isn't going to delete his membership, because he hasn't told the church to do that and the church can't read his mind to know his intentions. The best and safest guess is that he wants to still be a member but doesn't want to attend church for the time being. The church just leaves things as they are until it knows more. It might send home teachers or visiting teachers or missionaries to check on the person, see if he still lives at the address listed in the records, and ask why he quit attending. Maybe his work schedule changed and he has to work on Sundays. Maybe he got hurt or sick and won't be able to attend for a while, but wants to start attending as soon as he is well. I knew a guy who got a heart transplant. His new heart required anti-rejection drugs, which meant he had no immune system, which meant he risked his life if he attended church, even though he wanted to attend. But for the rest of his life, he probably won't attend, and even letting visitors through the door into home was risky. If we had just ***umed he quit coming because he now hated the church and wanted his records deleted, we would have made a serious mistake, and he could probably have sued the church for doing something he hadn't requested. Imagine how many times this kind of mistake could occur if we just automatically deleted everyone who hasn't been to church for 1 month.

Take my brother for an example. He stopped going to church when he was 17, at which time he began smoking and drinking, got his girlfriend pregnant, had to get married and has never had a desire to go to church. If you ask him what religion he is, he'll say....."I'm a Mormon" even though he has told me he doesn't believe in the Bible, or God. So, why hasn't your church kicked him out?
Because we don't automatically kick out every member who is a sinner. If we did have a policy like that, we'd have zero members.

Because he is part of your 15 million members even though the majority of them don't attend church but are jack Mormons like my brother.
If he doesn't want his name deleted and hasn't committed a bad enough sin to get excommunicated, then there isn't much we legally can do, nor should we do much with his membership until he tells us.
Has he requested that his name be removed? Even members who decide they hate the church and wish all its members were dead, may get to keep their membership if that is their wish, even though that hurts the church in some ways. Maybe that is why some of those members do that--they want to hurt the church, so they choose to keep their membership. Others want to keep their membership as insurance--they realize that even though they currently don't like the church, they may change their mind in the future.

alanmolstad

03-18-2014, 11:45 PM

use of the word " lie " is a personal attack and against the rules

see - http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?33-Here-are-the-rules for conformation.

James Banta

03-19-2014, 01:28 PM

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/...ovalletter.htm

This link will help you out

I am not having trouble.. I like you hold that there are three Persons that are one God. Each person fully God but all three one God.. Cleafrly the same doctrine God has explained to us of His being from the very beginning.. IHS jim

James Banta

03-19-2014, 01:37 PM

[Erundur;153847]That's just bizarre. No one is forcing anyone to do anything, except the anti-Mormons who are trying to force us to change our resignation procedures. I'm willing to call that evil instead of silly if it will make you happier.

It i mormonism that sat down the policies. All we ask is that the LDS church remains true to those policies.. You yourself said the policy was a thirty day turn around. Just stay to that and there is no problem.. Sit on the request for months or even years is an affront to your own rules. We had nothing to do with setting LDS church policies, when the lack of following them affects us we have the right to demand that you live up to your own rules..

Yes.

Then in your wisdom you are acting as a fool..

Gee, it's a good thing you're not allowing this to descend into a volley of personal attacks, isn't it?

yes it is because if I were to act like you this would be nothing more than a name calling match.. IHS jim

alanmolstad

03-19-2014, 03:55 PM

I just started this topic the other day...and as I post this comment the topic has received near 1,300 views!

Clearly I underestimated the interest....

From time to time I will keep posting what is the main topic for this topic in how to get out of the mormons..

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/...ovalletter.htm

Erundur

03-19-2014, 04:00 PM

You yourself said the policy was a thirty day turn around.
No, I said it was a cooling-off period; "waiting period" would also be accurate. Obviously the turn around time would be longer, since the request must be processed before the waiting period.

Sit on the request for months or even years is an affront to your own rules.
If you know of someone who's doing that, then you should take it up with them, but I bet you don't.

Then in your wisdom you are acting as a fool..
I really appreciate you setting the example of not descending into a volley of personal attacks.

James Banta

03-19-2014, 06:50 PM

[Erundur;154035]No, I said it was a cooling-off period; "waiting period" would also be accurate. Obviously the turn around time would be longer, since the request must be processed before the waiting period.

You seem to be the expert here.. So what happens after the 30 days.. t that the day their membership files go into the Bishop's desk, so that no action can be taken in regards to the request? Or is that the day the request is forwarded to higher authority for action?

If you know of someone who's doing that, then you should take it up with them, but I bet you don't.

Personally I don't know anyone you re right but I have seen the testimonies of many.. Just type in www.salamandersociety.com/blacksheep/ (http://www.salamandersociety.com/blacksheep/) and look for yourself.

I really appreciate you setting the example of not descending into a volley of personal attacks.

Actinging foolish doesn't mean a person is a fool.. We all act foolish from time to time.. That isn't even close to the attack on other posters here when mean spirited members call others liars.. If you don't think your post have sounded a bit foolish show me what you were really saying.. telling me that I am trying to tell the LDS church how to run it's resignation process was a foolish statement when it was you that explained the process.. All I asked was, why don't the Church leaders follow the directions set out in church's own policies.. IHS jim

alanmolstad

03-19-2014, 08:44 PM

is there some point to the "membership" question?

neverending

03-19-2014, 09:07 PM

The church does what it thinks the person wants, based on whatever instructions the person has provided to the church. In many cases, the person just quits attending but doesn't give the church a reason why, and doesn't say what he wants the church to do with his records, so the church isn't going to delete his membership, because he hasn't told the church to do that and the church can't read his mind to know his intentions. The best and safest guess is that he wants to still be a member but doesn't want to attend church for the time being. The church just leaves things as they are until it knows more. It might send home teachers or visiting teachers or missionaries to check on the person, see if he still lives at the address listed in the records, and ask why he quit attending. Maybe his work schedule changed and he has to work on Sundays. Maybe he got hurt or sick and won't be able to attend for a while, but wants to start attending as soon as he is well. I knew a guy who got a heart transplant. His new heart required anti-rejection drugs, which meant he had no immune system, which meant he risked his life if he attended church, even though he wanted to attend. But for the rest of his life, he probably won't attend, and even letting visitors through the door into home was risky. If we had just ***umed he quit coming because he now hated the church and wanted his records deleted, we would have made a serious mistake, and he could probably have sued the church for doing something he hadn't requested. Imagine how many times this kind of mistake could occur if we just automatically deleted everyone who hasn't been to church for 1 month.

Because we don't automatically kick out every member who is a sinner. If we did have a policy like that, we'd have zero members.

If he doesn't want his name deleted and hasn't committed a bad enough sin to get excommunicated, then there isn't much we legally can do, nor should we do much with his membership until he tells us.
Has he requested that his name be removed? Even members who decide they hate the church and wish all its members were dead, may get to keep their membership if that is their wish, even though that hurts the church in some ways. Maybe that is why some of those members do that--they want to hurt the church, so they choose to keep their membership. Others want to keep their membership as insurance--they realize that even though they currently don't like the church, they may change their mind in the future.

I would think 45 years is a lot more then a month. That's how long its been since my brother attended church. And hasn't anyone heard of a phone? This man you mentioned certainly could have picked up his phone and called his Bishop or someone to let them know about his health. That was a poor example. And I know my brother will not change his mind since he has already shared with me that he doesn't believe there's a God nor does he believe in the Bible. If anyone needs to be ex'd it is my brother. So it is like I've stated, your church keeps my brother on the membership rolls so he can be counted as part of the 15 million. Tell me, how many of those 15 million are active? And isn't it true that babies are now being counted too? I thought one had to be baptized and made a member before they could be counted. Maybe even members who have died are still being counted.

alanmolstad

03-22-2014, 11:01 AM

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/...ovalletter.htm

alanmolstad

04-11-2014, 09:28 AM

bump
..............................

Phoenix

04-11-2014, 04:09 PM

I would think 45 years is a lot more then a month.
Was there a set number of years that the father of the Prodigal Son used as a basis for no longer considering the prodigal to be his son?

That's how long its been since my brother attended church. And hasn't anyone heard of a phone? This man you mentioned certainly could have picked up his phone and called his Bishop or someone to let them know about his health.
He did let us know about his condition, either when we called him or paid a visit to meet him and try to get to know him, or he called us.

And I know my brother will not change his mind since he has already shared with me that he doesn't believe there's a God nor does he believe in the Bible.
Paul changed his mind about Christ after years of probably thinking that he would never change his mind.

If anyone needs to be ex'd it is my brother.
If your brother wants his name off the membership rolls, what is stopping him? Hasn't he heard of a phone?

So it is like I've stated, your church keeps my brother on the membership rolls so he can be counted as part of the 15 million.
I am skeptical. Keeping inactive members on the rolls hurts the church in a number of ways.

And isn't it true that babies are now being counted too?
TMK, they are not counted as members of the church--only as members of a household. Who told you that rumor about "now" the policy has changed?

I thought one had to be baptized and made a member before they could be counted.
That is the policy, to my knowledge. And I am fairly knowledgeable about this stuff.

Maybe even members who have died are still being counted.
If we are engaging in unprincipled wild speculation, then maybe pet canaries are being counted, too.
And aliens.

James Banta

04-11-2014, 06:10 PM

[Phoenix;154748]Was there a set number of years that the father of the Prodigal Son used as a basis for no longer considering the prodigal to be his son?

Terrible comparison.. Most people that resign their membership never resign from being children of God.. That makes me think that you see the LDS church as standing in the place of God.. So just where in His name do you see The Father? A person can't be a prodigal if they never walk away from God..

He did let us know about his condition, either when we called him or paid a visit to meet him and try to get to know him, or he called us.

Which one? Don't you know? That makes me believe that no one actually Paid a visit. You don't seem to know it is was His call or yours.. I wonder if you are even sure if you knew about the man's condition..

Paul changed his mind about Christ after years of probably thinking that he would never change his mind.

Yes, and all it took was a personal visitation from Jesus.. Hummm seeing God, yeah that should be enough to change any ones mind..

If your brother wants his name off the membership rolls, what is stopping him? Hasn't he heard of a phone?

I know him.. He doesn't think the church is worth his time to resign.. Maybe he should be exed for apostasy. Not believing in the first article of faith should be grounds enough..

I am skeptical. Keeping inactive members on the rolls hurts the church in a number of ways.

What ways.. You don't visit or call unless some church discipline becomes involved. All I can see is those that don't believe in the church and don't see a reason to waste time resigning do nothing to the church other than artificially plump it numbers of members.

TMK, they are not counted as members of the church--only as members of a household. Who told you that rumor about "now" the policy has changed?

So all we have in rumor and opinion? Why don't you know for sure.. It isn't our church it's yours.. So what in the policy?

That is the policy, to my knowledge. And I am fairly knowledgeable about this stuff.

But since you can't show where this policy is and by whose authority children under 8 years old are not counted as members, you don't seem to know for sure..

If we are engaging in unprincipled wild speculation, then maybe pet canaries are being counted, too.
And aliens.

I think you have the same authority to say that as you do to say that younger children are not counted.. Never Ending has decided not to post any more so I asked her if I could answer for her.. She heard your posting and agreed to the response.. IHS jim