Why are there no moron, sorry, mormon posters here

[iain]

I can't see any Mormons here answering any questions. Who is the moderator of this site

[alanmolstad]

have something* for one of the Mods to deal with?


(*aside from looking into the issue of the insulting ***le of this topic?)

[theway]

I can't see any Mormons here answering any questions. Who is the moderator of this sitewell... I don't see anyone asking any questions. Just a lot if questioning and accusing.

[alanmolstad]

well... I don't see anyone asking any questions. Just a lot if questioning and accusing.

i have a bit of busy day planned here today....but when i did check on the newer posts on our forum there did seem like a lot of bickering....and little talking about people think...just a lot of what the "other guy" is like....

[theway]

i have a bit of busy day planned here today....but when i did check on the newer posts on our forum there did seem like a lot of bickering....and little talking about people think...just a lot of what the "other guy" is like....
Look at this guys very first post. He spends it insulting Mormons (morons) and then asks why nobody takes things serious here...... I mean, I'll never take this guys serious ever again.
Par for the course.

[Apologette]

I can't see any Mormons here answering any questions. Who is the moderator of this site

The poster calling himself "the way," blaspheming Our Lord, is a Mormon - naturally.

[alanmolstad]

when I check his number of his posts?......I count "1"

So based on this vast experience he has come to the conclusion that things need to change around here...

[Zeus]

when I check his number of his posts?......I count "1"

So based on this vast experience he has come to the conclusion that things need to change around here...

:)

That's pretty funny.

[RealFakeHair]

I can't see any Mormons here answering any questions. Who is the moderator of this site

Wow! Why didn't I think of no mormon first?

[neverending]

when I check his number of his posts?......I count "1"

So based on this vast experience he has come to the conclusion that things need to change around here...

Came back just to answer this from you.....YES!! there needs to be some major changes around here! A shame Jill doesn't keep better tabs on this site because it seems to be running around like a chicken with its head off....anything goes it seems.
We all had to join at one time and yeah, one post to get ourselves going. This new member joined just today, and you get on this new member? I welcome them and any comments they may offer.

[theway]

Came back just to answer this from you.....YES!! there needs to be some major changes around here! A shame Jill doesn't keep better tabs on this site because it seems to be running around like a chicken with its head off....anything goes it seems.
We all had to join at one time and yeah, one post to get ourselves going. This new member joined just today, and you get on this new member? I welcome them and any comments they may offer. So.... You welcomed his comment that Mormons are morons?

[alanmolstad]

it just think that " morons" is a poitless attack...it is against the rules....shows a lack of cl***...And is bad manners.

and yes....im going to watching this new member closely....for they have already gotten off to bad start and if they think they can keepn getting away with name-calling they are in for trouble.

[RealFakeHair]

it just think that " morons" is a poitless attack...it is against the rules....shows a lack of cl***...And is bad manners.

and yes....im going to watching this new member closely....for they have already gotten off to bad start and if they think they can keepn getting away with name-calling they are in for trouble.
Kinda of an age give-away too.

[James Banta]

well... I don't see anyone asking any questions. Just a lot if questioning and accusing.

Ok questions.. One I have been asking since I first signed on here.. How many God are there for this world? Is the Father a separate God from Jesus, Is Jesus a God at all? Is the Holy (Ghost) Spirit God, Is He God at all?

Here are a few more..

Have all men sinned? If it isn't our nature to sin why is it that everyone sins? How do we, or how does God deal with our sin? If it was enough for Jesus to sweat so profusely that the sweat dripped off Him as though it were great drops of blood why did he have to die at all? Or does forgiveness of sin required actual blood to be shed and thereby require His death?

Does God have the power to create anything or is he just a good builder? Why is it that mormonism believes that the elements are eternal but God isn't? While the elements always existed as the elements, God didn't always exist as God.. Is that true? If Not why did Joseph Smith tell us that He would explain how God became God and that once He was a man just like Jesus but on a different world..

Are we saved by God's grace through faith and not by works? If works are required to gain salvation just how many works are needed to be preformed to reach the minimum amount of works required for salvation?

These same questions have been asked many times and yet no one has offered an answer that has any Biblical authority behind the answers.. Want to try again? I have been waiting for years I'll bet I wait even longer.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Look at this guys very first post. He spends it insulting Mormons (morons) and then asks why nobody takes things serious here...... I mean, I'll never take this guys serious ever again.
Par for the course.

He will be told to knock off the insults and stay inside the examination of the teachings of mormonism.. Still the LDS here will take exception to the non personal examination of the doctrines that are uniquely mormon. IHS jim

[neverending]

So.... You welcomed his comment that Mormons are morons?

I don't recall saying I welcomed his rude comment, did I? I did say I welcomed this person, (don't know if it is a man or woman), we can always use some new members here. If alan wants to report this person, he can do so. Whether this new member will post again, I don't know but the thread could have been worded more politely of course. Then again, sorry to say, I have a brother who I would definitely say is a moron and claims to be a Mormon when he's never attended church since he was 17, he's now almost 63.

[neverending]

Ok questions.. One I have been asking since I first signed on here.. How many God are there for this world? Is the Father a separate God from Jesus, Is Jesus a God at all? Is the Holy (Ghost) Spirit God, Is He God at all?

Here are a few more..

Have all men sinned? If it isn't our nature to sin why is it that everyone sins? How do we, or how does God deal with our sin? If it was enough for Jesus to sweat so profusely that the sweat dripped off Him as though it were great drops of blood why did he have to die at all? Or does forgiveness of sin required actual blood to be shed and thereby require His death?

Does God have the power to create anything or is he just a good builder? Why is it that mormonism believes that the elements are eternal but God isn't? While the elements always existed as the elements, God didn't always exist as God.. Is that true? If Not why did Joseph Smith tell us that He would explain how God became God and that once He was a man just like Jesus but on a different world..

Are we saved by God's grace through faith and not by works? If works are required to gain salvation just how many works are needed to be preformed to reach the minimum amount of works required for salvation?

These same questions have been asked many times and yet no one has offered an answer that has any Biblical authority behind the answers.. Want to try again? I have been waiting for years I'll bet I wait even longer.. IHS jim

I've longed for an answer to this question. How much good works must a Mormon do to know that their salvation is in the bag? I once asked my Dad but he never had an answer for me. He always thought I was stupid especially since I was only a girl.

[RealFakeHair]

I've longed for an answer to this question. How much good works much a Mormon do to know that their salvation is in the bag? I once asked my Dad but he never had an answer for me. He always thought I was stupid especially since I was only a girl.

I'd be a moron if I tried to answer that question. However this question will remain un-answered along with how many mormon gods are there out there in the universe?

[theway]

Ok questions.. One I have been asking since I first signed on here..And I'm sure I have answered every one of them. The fact that you don't like the answer does not mean they haven't been answered for you.

How many God are there for this world?One

Is the Father a separate God from Jesus, Is Jesus a God at all? Is the Holy (Ghost) Spirit God, Is He God at all? Yes, yes, yes and yes... Just like your Trinity doctrine states.
The only difference is that we can explain how this is possible... You can not because "ignorance is bliss" for some.



Have all men sinned? No

If it isn't our nature to sin why is it that everyone sins?Because they choose to follow their physical nature instead of our divine nature.

How do we, or how does God deal with our sin?Two ways; either with Judgment or Mercy depending on us and our free agency.

If it was enough for Jesus to sweat so profusely that the sweat dripped off Him as though it were great drops of blood why did he have to die at all? Or does forgiveness of sin required actual blood to be shed and thereby require His death?Now you are "questioning" instead of "asking a question" You are looking to see if my answer will match yours because you think you already know the answer. My answer is simply that I don't know why specifically Christ had to die at all, or that blood was necessary to be spilt, other than to say that it had to happen. Even Christ asked His Father if there was another way.


Does God have the power to create anything or is he just a good builder? What's the difference?

Why is it that mormonism believes that the elements are eternal but God isn't? there you go again... "Questioning" instead of "asking your question"
However so you can not claim that you have not been answered I must inform you that all things are eternal especially God.
It's only a matter of what form.

While the elements always existed as the elements, God didn't always exist as God.. See answer above.

Is that true? If Not why did Joseph Smith tell us that He would explain how God became God and that once He was a man just like Jesus but on a different world..
I don't know? I guess you'll have to ask the person who recorded his remarks, and then ask Joseph Smith. But if He was "just like Jesus" then He still would have been God.

Are we saved by God's grace through faith and not by works? Yes

If works are required to gain salvation just how many works are needed to be preformed to reach the minimum amount of works required for salvation?All of them!


These same questions have been asked many times and yet no one has offered an answer that has any Biblical authority behind the answers.. Want to try again? I have been waiting for years I'll bet I wait even longer.. IHS jimAs you can see, I had no problem with them

[theway]

I don't recall saying I welcomed his rude comment, did I?Yes, you did.
Here is exactly what you said

"I welcome them and any comments they may offer"


Whether this new member will post again, I don't know but the thread could have been worded more politely of course. By "more politely of course" I guessing you mean it was Ok to call us morons, he just should have used a word like, "mentally challenged"


Then again, sorry to say, I have a brother who I would definitely say is a moron and claims to be a Mormon when he's never attended church since he was 17, he's now almost 63.if that was true, then anyone with true mental deficiencies will be automatically saved in the Celestial Kingdom wether he attended church or not.

[theway]

I've longed for an answer to this question. How much good works much a Mormon do to know that their salvation is in the bag?All works that you are capable of fulfilling and that you have knowledge of will be required of you for your salvation.

I once asked my Dad but he never had an answer for me. He always thought I was stupid especially since I was only a girl. Now, do you really want me to answer this one as well?:D

[RealFakeHair]

All works that you are capable of fulfilling and that you have knowledge of will be required of you for your salvation.
?:D

As lazy as I am, that means about one work, and speaking of knowledge, that means about one too.

[theway]

As lazy as I am, that means about one work, and speaking of knowledge, that means about one too.You stated it correctly.... Faith Alone was built on man's knowledge because mankind is lazy.
Don't let yourself be caught without oil in your lamp when you are called to meet him.

[James Banta]

You stated it correctly.... Faith Alone was built on man's knowledge because mankind is lazy.
Don't let yourself be caught without oil in your lamp when you are called to meet him.

Really.. So just what can a man do gto bring about his own salvatkon in gthe highest heaven of God? What is it that you think will make you worthy? There are beautiful church houses all over the USA that took a lot of work to build? Doing so just to have a place for the Church to gather doesn't sound to lazy to me.. There are Church supported mission across the world. They teach the truth as it is found in the Bible. they offer medical care, they educate and feed the locals. No one is excluded because they are poor or orphaned. Again I ask where in the laziness.. The people the Church sends into the world to be Her hands receive their daily bread and little else, and yet they struggle to gain acceptance into a ministry to do the work.. Lazy? Are you sure you know what the word means?

Christians then aren't lazy they know what they can do and what must be left to the grace of God through faith in Jesus.. The question here is why don't you and your church leaders know these things? IHS jim

[James Banta]

All works that you are capable of fulfilling and that you have knowledge of will be required of you for your salvation.
Now, do you really want me to answer this one as well?:D


I want answers. NE asked only how many good works/ ordinances as a minimum one must do to receive salvation. You are afraid of me and most likely have me blocked.. You will never see the question Christian have been asking the LDS here to answer from day one.. IHS jim

[neverending]

All works that you are capable of fulfilling and that you have knowledge of will be required of you for your salvation.
Now, do you really want me to answer this one as well?:D

I am sorry for you then for my salvation doesn't require me to do good works, for there is NOTHING I could do that would ever be acceptable to God."But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteous acts are as filthy rags....." Isaiah 64:6
Do you know what it means by, "filthy rags?" Not to gross anyone out but it means the rags that women used in Biblical times during their time of the month. So, according to Isaiah our righteous acts are as filthy, bloody rags to God. Do we want to present him with such disgusting gifts? I don't think so. And it was due to the shed blood of Jesus Christ and my faith and trust in Him that has given me my salvation. My place with God is ***ured. Read 1 John 5:13, it is what I cling to and can trust. I pray you can too.
As for the new member and his thread. I welcome any comments he will post if he does but as I said, his thread should have been worded in a more polite way, and that does NOT mean changing his wording to mean something else as far as calling Mormons, morons. I'd appreciate you NOT ***uming what I think, thank you. And as for my brother, yes, he's a moron for he is one of the biggest hypocrites I know. He even went so far as to agree to giving a prayer at my cousins funeral, even though he admits he doesn't believe in God. What would you call such a person?

[alanmolstad]

Yes, you did.
Here is exactly what you said.............


and then you go on and on..

Look, dont make us guys who did nothing wrong into the guilty party here.
neverending did NOTHING wrong.....

She correctly pointed out that I should have welcomed the new poster in addition to my pointing out his error...and she correctly pointed out that the new poster should have worded is 1st comment differently.

thats all i could hope for....

So move on.....

[neverending]

and then you go on and on..

Look, dont make us guys who did nothing wrong into the guilty party here.
neverending did NOTHING wrong.....

She correctly pointed out that I should have welcomed the new poster in addition to my pointing out his error...and she correctly pointed out that the new poster should have worded is 1st comment differently.

thats all i could hope for....

So move on.....

Thank you alan for your support, it meant a lot.

[theway]

Really.. So just what can a man do gto bring about his own salvatkon in gthe highest heaven of God? What is it that you think will make you worthy? There are beautiful church houses all over the USA that took a lot of work to build? Doing so just to have a place for the Church to gather doesn't sound to lazy to me.. There are Church supported mission across the world. They teach the truth as it is found in the Bible. they offer medical care, they educate and feed the locals. No one is excluded because they are poor or orphaned. Again I ask where in the laziness.. The people the Church sends into the world to be Her hands receive their daily bread and little else, and yet they struggle to gain acceptance into a ministry to do the work.. Lazy? Are you sure you know what the word means?

Christians then aren't lazy they know what they can do and what must be left to the grace of God through faith in Jesus.. The question here is why don't you and your church leaders know these things? IHS jim
LOL... see what I mean....
AntiMormons don't ask questions to know answers, or understand doctrine.
They question
Then they ask rhetorical questions
Then they question one's integrity with backhanded insults

There certainly is no questioning of their motives or the spirit which drives them.

[theway]

and then you go on and on..

Look, dont make us guys who did nothing wrong into the guilty party here.
neverending did NOTHING wrong.....

She correctly pointed out that I should have welcomed the new poster in addition to my pointing out his error...and she correctly pointed out that the new poster should have worded is 1st comment differently.

thats all i could hope for....

So move on.....
Ah... No... it might of been a Freudian Slip on her part, but she did not say the new poster should have worded their comment "differently" only "more politely".
It's just like JohnT getting all over my case for calling someone "silly" then turning right around and calling me "puerile" which is the nice form of "silly" as though there was a difference.

Frankly I'd rather be called silly

[James Banta]

[theway;153864]And I'm sure I have answered every one of them. The fact that you don't like the answer does not mean they haven't been answered for you.

Problem is that your answers are not making any sense..


One

Really you know better then the Prophet Joseph Smith who said he saw God? He said:

I will preach on the plurality of Gods. I have selected this text for that express purpose. I wish to declare I have always and in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods. It has been preached by the Elders for fifteen years. I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three cons***ute three distinct personages and three Gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold! we have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural: and who can contradict it! (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 473)

I would think that if Smith was indeed a prophet of God his knowledge of the number of Gods that exist would be superior to yours.. I think that if you are righton this point of doctrine that you would be the president and prophet of the LDS church.. I guess to align with the teaching of Smith and his church you should have ignored Jesus and the Bible and said THREE..



Yes, yes, yes and yes... Just like your Trinity doctrine states.

The Doctrine of the Trinity never says that the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are three separate beings, Never does it say that they are separate Gods.. It teaches that they are separate Persons.. That the three Persons of the Trinity are the one true God.. You are telling me that that is a lie that the Bible and Jesus are liars as they teach that the Lord our God is one LORD.. Your statement shows a lack of education as to what is and is not Christian doctrine..


The only difference is that we can explain how this is possible... You can not because "ignorance is bliss" for some.

You are right you can explain your error by the logic of men.. I can only explain what God has said about Himself in His word. He said that there is one God who is our Lord. He said that He and no one and nothing else was ever a God in the past or in the future. To allow the thinking of mormonism to make sense of the Bible especially in this p***age additions have to be made to the p***age the wording if only in their thoughts. The phrase here must mean "For this world". Without the addition their doctrine of eternal progression is destroyed..

So can I explain the Trinity, YES, by what God gave us in His world that speaks to His nature.. He said that He is "Us" (Gen 1:26), Jesus is said to have been with God as well as being God in the beginning (John 1:1). Again to make it work for mormonism they add the article "a" to the meaning of the p***age.. Jesus much later describes the Father as God (John 20:17). Then after Jesus went to be with the Father, in His Kingdom, after the Promised Holy Spirit had come onto the Church, Peter calls Him God (Acts 5:3-4).. But still unless God lies, the Lord our God is one Lord.. The doctrine of the trinity retell the nature of God by what He has explained of Himself in the scripture.. You deny the scripture to believe that there are three different beings that are three Gods. Of course you believe that is incorrect and believe maybe that only the Father is God.. That would deny the divinity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit .. It is clear that you have no idea of who and what God is..


No

Really.. That is just one more denial of the scripture.. You doubt me then look for yourself Romans 3:23..


Because they choose to follow their physical nature instead of our divine nature.

What is this a LDS admitting that we have a physical nature? But How did we get a divine nature.. Jesus said we must be born again. We were all born the first time with a physical nature then we had to be Born Again of the Spirit and take on a spiritual nature. Remember even your BofM teaches that the natural mane is an enemy of God.. And remember Jesus said that there is a nature birth and a spiritual birth. They must happen at two different times.. So how is one born spiritually (John1:12)? Again look it up..


Two ways; either with Judgment or Mercy depending on us and our free agency.

I agree that God will bring judgment on all who reject Him but you didn't say how the "truth" teaches that we can gain Mercy.. I say that it comes by His grace through faith in Jesus and NOT OF WORKS so that no one, NOT ONE OF US can boast.. No Baptism, No laying on of hands, no priesthood, no endowments, no marriage.. Just faith in Jesus. You say that you believe that salvation comes as a product of God's grace through faith and then as soon as your ordinances, priesthoods, or endurance to the end are brought up you change to a 100% believer in works salvation.. Haven't you seen that Christians are 100% consistent in holding that salvation is by grace through faith plus nothing?


Now you are "questioning" instead of "asking a question" You are looking to see if my answer will match yours because you think you already know the answer. My answer is simply that I don't know why specifically Christ had to die at all, or that blood was necessary to be spilt, other than to say that it had to happen. Even Christ asked His Father if there was another way.

Did I say that you or any LDS teaching aligned with what I said? I asked a fair question..

In Romans 6:23 we are told that the wages of Sin is Death. The atonement for sin requires death. If you believed the Bible you wold see that and recognize that Jesus became the sacrifice for sin.. He became sin, He who knew no sin, that we can be made the righteousness of God in Him.. Because He became sin He had to die.. See all you can learn posting here?

Yes Jesus asked if there was another way.. There wasn't and Jesus went through the wrath of God that would be poured out on Him because of the sin He represented..


What's the difference?

The difference is do you believe God or do you doubt Him.. He explained through His Apostle that He created all things visible and invisible.. Mormonism knows better than that and calls the elements eternal when It teaches that God was NOT always God, but that He became a God through obedience to laws and ordinances.. It's not bad enough that you deny God is the absolute creator but you teach that He was the creation of another older and therefore more powerful God. That is the difference.. Again it shows the world that you doubt God through His word..


there you go again... "Questioning" instead of "asking your question"
However so you can not claim that you have not been answered I must inform you that all things are eternal especially God.
It's only a matter of what form.

Tell me then that Jesus was there with the Father as He was in His Father's Kingdom as a spirit child before He became the Savior of the mortal world His Father in heaven created. If at that time He was God just in a different form was Jesus there with Him in the form of an intelligence? He would have to be if you are willing to stand by your false doctrine.. And not just Jesus but all those who such a being would know who would also become Gods as He did.. I have often said this "It this wasn't so sad it would be funny"..



I don't know? I guess you'll have to ask the person who recorded his remarks, and then ask Joseph Smith. But if He was "just like Jesus" then He still would have been God.

Good, let me tell you I don't know how God flooded the whole earth or how He parted the Red Sea but I believe He did those things.. I don't need to wait and ask Noah or Moses. Was Smith a true prophet or a false prophet? If he was a real prophet, a true prophet then His teaching of God's nature would be true, wouldn't? It only makes sense that a true prophet would offer only truth not lies.. The meaning is straight forward, He taught that there are three Gods.. That is in conflict with the Bible..


Yes
All of them!

That is just what I was saying you will say that LDS doctrine agrees with the Bible, but when asked about the requirements for salvation you immediately revert to works based salvation.. You are making my point very clearly..


As you can see, I had no problem with them

You have no problem with stateing the man invented doctrines but I noticed that other than a a yes and no you had nothing in your post that could be supported Biblically.. IHS jim

[theway]

I am sorry for you then for my salvation doesn't require me to do good works, for there is NOTHING I could do that would ever be acceptable to God."But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteous acts are as filthy rags....." Isaiah 64:6
[SIZE=3]Do you know what it means by, "filthy rags?" Not to gross anyone out but it means the rags that women used in Biblical times during their time of the month. So, according to Isaiah our righteous acts are as filthy, bloody rags to God. Do we want to present him with such disgusting gifts? I don't think so. What's funny is that you have jumped to this verse so many times that you probably never read the verse that precedes it, because you are exactly supposed to meet and present your God with your good and righteous works.
Isaiah 64:5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.
Nor have you ever read it in context. In verse 6 Isaiah is specifically only talking to the house of Israel at a specific time period in their history. This was a time when they made sacrifices at the temple as works of righteousness, but then turn around and worship other Gods at the same time. God is saying that this being the case that their righeous acts have become as filthy rags because of their hypocrisy.

THIS NEVER WAS MEANT TO IMPLY THAT ALL GOOD WORKS WERE FITHY RAGS.
Perhaps you need better Sunday School teachers as well.

[theway]

Problem is that your answers are not making any sense..



Really you know better then the Prophet Joseph Smith who said he saw God? He said:

I will preach on the plurality of Gods. I have selected this text for that express purpose. I wish to declare I have always and in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods. It has been preached by the Elders for fifteen years. I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three cons***ute three distinct personages and three Gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold! we have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural: and who can contradict it! (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 473)

I would think that if Smith was indeed a prophet of God his knowledge of the number of Gods that exist would be superior to yours.. I think that if you are righton this point of doctrine that you would be the president and prophet of the LDS church.. I guess to align with the teaching of Smith and his church you should have ignored Jesus and the Bible and said THREE..




The Doctrine of the Trinity never says that the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are three separate beings, Never does it say that they are separate Gods.. It teaches that they are separate Persons.. That the three Persons of the Trinity are the one true God.. You are telling me that that is a lie that the Bible and Jesus are liars as they teach that the Lord our God is one LORD.. Your statement shows a lack of education as to what is and is not Christian doctrine..



You are right you can explain your error by the logic of men.. I can only explain what God has said about Himself in His word. He said that there is one God who is our Lord. He said that He and no one and nothing else was ever a God in the past or in the future. To allow the thinking of mormonism to make sense of the Bible especially in this p***age additions have to be made to the p***age the wording if only in their thoughts. The phrase here must mean "For this world". Without the addition their doctrine of eternal progression is destroyed..

So can I explain the Trinity, YES, by what God gave us in His world that speaks to His nature.. He said that He is "Us" (Gen 1:26), Jesus is said to have been with God as well as being God in the beginning (John 1:1). Again to make it work for mormonism they add the article "a" to the meaning of the p***age.. Jesus much later describes the Father as God (John 20:17). Then after Jesus went to be with the Father, in His Kingdom, after the Promised Holy Spirit had come onto the Church, Peter calls Him God (Acts 5:3-4).. But still unless God lies, the Lord our God is one Lord.. The doctrine of the trinity retell the nature of God by what He has explained of Himself in the scripture.. You deny the scripture to believe that there are three different beings that are three Gods. Of course you believe that is incorrect and believe maybe that only the Father is God.. That would deny the divinity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit .. It is clear that you have no idea of who and what God is..



Really.. That is just one more denial of the scripture.. You doubt me then look for yourself Romans 3:23..



What is this a LDS admitting that we have a physical nature? But How did we get a divine nature.. Jesus said we must be born again. We were all born the first time with a physical nature then we had to be Born Again of the Spirit and take on a spiritual nature. Remember even your BofM teaches that the natural mane is an enemy of God.. And remember Jesus said that there is a nature birth and a spiritual birth. They must happen at two different times.. So how is one born spiritually (John1:12)? Again look it up..



I agree that God will bring judgment on all who reject Him but you didn't say how the "truth" teaches that we can gain Mercy.. I say that it comes by His grace through faith in Jesus and NOT OF WORKS so that no one, NOT ONE OF US can boast.. No Baptism, No laying on of hands, no priesthood, no endowments, no marriage.. Just faith in Jesus. You say that you believe that salvation comes as a product of God's grace through faith and then as soon as your ordinances, priesthoods, or endurance to the end are brought up you change to a 100% believer in works salvation.. Haven't you seen that Christians are 100% consistent in holding that salvation is by grace through faith plus nothing?



Did I say that you or any LDS teaching aligned with what I said? I asked a fair question..

In Romans 6:23 we are told that the wages of Sin is Death. The atonement for sin requires death. If you believed the Bible you wold see that and recognize that Jesus became the sacrifice for sin.. He became sin, He who knew no sin, that we can be made the righteousness of God in Him.. Because He became sin He had to die.. See all you can learn posting here?

Yes Jesus asked if there was another way.. There wasn't and Jesus went through the wrath of God that would be poured out on Him because of the sin He represented..



The difference is do you believe God or do you doubt Him.. He explained through His Apostle that He created all things visible and invisible.. Mormonism knows better than that and calls the elements eternal when It teaches that God was NOT always God, but that He became a God through obedience to laws and ordinances.. It's not bad enough that you deny God is the absolute creator but you teach that He was the creation of another older and therefore more powerful God. That is the difference.. Again it shows the world that you doubt God through His word..



Tell me then that Jesus was there with the Father as He was in His Father's Kingdom as a spirit child before He became the Savior of the mortal world His Father in heaven created. If at that time He was God just in a different form was Jesus there with Him in the form of an intelligence? He would have to be if you are willing to stand by your false doctrine.. And not just Jesus but all those who such a being would know who would also become Gods as He did.. I have often said this "It this wasn't so sad it would be funny"..




Good, let me tell you I don't know how God flooded the whole earth or how He parted the Red Sea but I believe He did those things.. I don't need to wait and ask Noah or Moses. Was Smith a true prophet or a false prophet? If he was a real prophet, a true prophet then His teaching of God's nature would be true, wouldn't? It only makes sense that a true prophet would offer only truth not lies.. The meaning is straight forward, He taught that there are three Gods.. That is in conflict with the Bible..



That is just what I was saying you will say that LDS doctrine agrees with the Bible, but when asked about the requirements for salvation you immediately revert to works based salvation.. You are making my point very clearly..



You have no problem with stateing the man invented doctrines but I noticed that other than a a yes and no you had nothing in your post that could be supported Biblically.. IHS jimI answered your questions stating beforehand that you were not interested in having your questioned answered.
I have no intention of reading your reply because I know my point was made.
You only question as it gives you a platform in which to rant on.

What worse is that you have no idea about the gospel or what Christ taught.

[alanmolstad]

but she did not say the new poster should have worded their comment "differently" only "more politely".
"Did not say"???
I simply don't have time for this.
I'm too old, and too tired to be always wishing for interesting topics that really challenge me to come up with new ways to express my views to others.

[alanmolstad]

Thank you alan for your support, it meant a lot. I have amended my "IGNORE list to include that guy for the next week or so.
I dont mind when people criticize us over things that appear on the forum, but to criticize over things that dont appear here?...to blame you for what you did not write?....thats just not going to fly here with me.

If I criticize someone I do so based on what they actually posted in black and white...
I dont play favorites, Im not on any 'team"
I dont cut people slack when they post something that is in error, regardless if they agree with me most of the time or not.

and....I dont try to read the person's mind.

[neverending]

What's funny is that you have jumped to this verse so many times that you probably never read the verse that precedes it, because you are exactly supposed to meet and present your God with your good and righteous works.
Isaiah 64:5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.
Nor have you ever read it in context. In verse 6 Isaiah is specifically only talking to the house of Israel at a specific time period in their history. This was a time when they made sacrifices at the temple as works of righteousness, but then turn around and worship other Gods at the same time. God is saying that this being the case that their righeous acts have become as filthy rags because of their hypocrisy.

THIS NEVER WAS MEANT TO IMPLY THAT ALL GOOD WORKS WERE FITHY RAGS.
Perhaps you need better Sunday School teachers as well.

Maybe we should look at translations made from older m****cripts, translated into modern English so we can understand the writers intent. We no longer speak as they did in England back during the reign of King James. The first part of Chapter 64, praise God for his power and majesty. Isaiah, states clearly that there were no other gods in Israel. That He acts on behalf of those who wait for Him and gladly helps those who do the right things and remember His commandments. But don't we continue to sin against his ways (His commandments) for our disobedience God is angry; so how then can we be saved? So then look at Isaiah 64:6. theway, I didn't write the Bible. Isaiah said, WE HAVE ALL BECOME LIKE ONE WHO IS UNCLEAN! We all SIN! We then go out and try to do righteous acts. Does that not make us ALL hypocrites? Those righteous acts are filthy rags before God. Again, I didn't write the Bible. Isaiah said we ALL then shrivel up as a leaf and like the wind, our sins; carry us away. That is what the p***age says. And my Sunday School teacher is just fine in what I am hearing.
To God, sin is sin and rebellion against Him and yes, Israel was making sacrifices to other gods, but again that was SIN! So that makes none of us clean and our poor attempts are useless because we are being hypocrites and God knows the things we do; He sees everything, nothing is hidden from God. This verse means as much today as it did for Israel, before the Babylonian captivity. FOR ALL HAVE SINNED!! I am sure you've read that verse many times. The ONLY righteousness we have is through Jesus Christ and if we don't have his righteousness, we have no righteousness, period! We're not capable of being righteous, our hearts are evil, our thoughts are evil. Sure, we try but we will fail at some point. Even Paul said he sinned, which made him unrighteous (Romans 7:19).

[theway]

Maybe we should look at translations made from older m****cripts, translated into modern English so we can understand the writers intent. We no longer speak as they did in England back during the reign of King James. The first part of Chapter 64, praise God for his power and majesty. Isaiah, states clearly that there were no other gods in Israel. That He acts on behalf of those who wait for Him and gladly helps those who do the right things and remember His commandments. But don't we continue to sin against his ways (His commandments) for our disobedience God is angry; so how then can we be saved? So then look at Isaiah 64:6. theway, I didn't write the Bible. Isaiah said, WE HAVE ALL BECOME LIKE ONE WHO IS UNCLEAN! We all SIN! We then go out and try to do righteous acts. Does that not make us ALL hypocrites? Those righteous acts are filthy rags before God. Again, I didn't write the Bible. Isaiah said we ALL then shrivel up as a leaf and like the wind, our sins; carry us away. That is what the p***age says. And my Sunday School teacher is just fine in what I am hearing.
To God, sin is sin and rebellion against Him and yes, Israel was making sacrifices to other gods, but again that was SIN! So that makes none of us clean and our poor attempts are useless because we are being hypocrites and God knows the things we do; He sees everything, nothing is hidden from God. This verse means as much today as it did for Israel, before the Babylonian captivity. FOR ALL HAVE SINNED!! I am sure you've read that verse many times. The ONLY righteousness we have is through Jesus Christ and if we don't have his righteousness, we have no righteousness, period! We're not capable of being righteous, our hearts are evil, our thoughts are evil. Sure, we try but we will fail at some point. Even Paul said he sinned, which made him unrighteous (Romans 7:19).
Once again... Isaiah was only speaking of the Children of Israel at that time in their history.
This is not a Mormon translation nor is it a works based religion translation. It simply is what it is. You want to misinterpret it to fit into a Faith Alone heresy, that it won't do... Sorry.

You then misinterpret Jeremiah and Mark by implying that all hearts are evil, thinking you can make that verse fit your Faith Alone heresy as well. However once again you are blinded to the verse right next to it.

Jeremiah 17:10 I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give to each man according to his ways, According to the results of his deeds.

Ask yourself why God would search our heart if it was only evil, and our works/deeds are all filthy rags?
The answer is right there in the Bible as well...

Matt. 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

Out of the good heart comes good things, out of the evil heart comes bad.
This is the gospel 101, the gospel is about making bad men good and good men better, so that all can move onto perfection.
Seems your Sunday School teacher needs a good teacher.

[RealFakeHair]

You stated it correctly.... Faith Alone was built on man's knowledge because mankind is lazy.
Don't let yourself be caught without oil in your lamp when you are called to meet him.

I use batteries. This is a good example of works vs faith in Christ Jesus of the Holy Bible. If you look at the Scriptures in the New Testament you'll find where works no matter how many or worthy never could fill you lamp. This is why Jesus, paid the price for mankind on the Cross, He and He alone will fill your cup if you let Him.

[James Banta]

[theway;153888]Once again... Isaiah was only speaking of the Children of Israel at that time in their history.
This is not a Mormon translation nor is it a works based religion translation. It simply is what it is. You want to misinterpret it to fit into a Faith Alone heresy, that it won't do... Sorry.

You are making the the scripture totally irreverent to anyone but the Children of Israel with your interpretation. No the whole of the Bible is there to teach all men especially the Church.. Jesus told the Jews to:

John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.


Paul Speaking to Timothy said:

2 Tim 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Was this only advice to Timothy at that time and we don't have to Study the scriptures. Jesus was talking only to the Jews and the Way to eternal life can't be found in the scripture by anyone but them at that time.. Your weak explanation that Isaiah's teachings were only for Israel and Israel that that time is astonishingly FALSE.. The Scripture ALL of it is there to lead us to Jesus and thereby to salvation..


You then misinterpret Jeremiah and Mark by implying that all hearts are evil, thinking you can make that verse fit your Faith Alone heresy as well. However once again you are blinded to the verse right next to it.

Jeremiah 17:10 I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give to each man according to his ways, According to the results of his deeds.

Ask yourself why God would search our heart if it was only evil, and our works/deeds are all filthy rags?

Do I misinterpret really? Are we different than the men before the flood? I say that in our nature before we are quickened by the Holy Spirit and become children of God that we are just like those people. And what is reported by God of them as He searched their hearts?

Gen 6:5
And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

The answer is right there in the Bible as well...
Then the heart that has not be "BORN FROM ABOVE" Born again, does only evil continually. When God searches such a heart that is what He finds.. From such as one of these their attempts to "Be Good" are as filthy rags before God. The word of God that He has preserved for us teaches these things.. You demand that to us these teaching are worthless.. Think for yourself, what is God going to find in an impure heart? A heart fulled with corruption and enmity toward God? What would we find if we mixed pure clean water with sewage? We would find nothing but sewage.. That is what God finds in the hearts of men as He searches them, Filthy Rages.. It is not in the power of good works to make someone clean before God. That requires BLOOD.

Leviticus 17:11
For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.The writer to Hebrews made it clearer:

Hebrews 9:22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.It is clear then that the acts of men outside the blood of Jesus are nothing but filthy rags.. Remember When Jesus was called "Good Master". He said "why do you call me Good ? There is only one who is Good and that is God". But you and your LDS betral of the scripture demands that Men are basically good.. Just like the Pharisees at the time of Jesus, those outside of the New Birth are natural men and are of their father the devil (John 8:44).





Matt. 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

Out of the good heart comes good things, out of the evil heart comes bad.
This is the gospel 101, the gospel is about making bad men good and good men better, so that all can move onto perfection.
Seems your Sunday School teacher needs a good teacher.

So the Good man would be the man who is in the righteousness of Jesus and the evil man would be one that worships false Gods, or no God at all. Those who have no faith in the Jesus of the Bible. Those that corrupt His nature to be a creation rather than the creator. I hold that those that are in the righteousness of Jesus are Good and bring forth good things that are acceptable to God. The evil men who reject that righteousness to build their own in the name of humanity, in the name of other Gods, or in their own name are building with filth rags.. IHS jim

[neverending]

Once again... Isaiah was only speaking of the Children of Israel at that time in their history.
This is not a Mormon translation nor is it a works based religion translation. It simply is what it is. You want to misinterpret it to fit into a Faith Alone heresy, that it won't do... Sorry.

You then misinterpret Jeremiah and Mark by implying that all hearts are evil, thinking you can make that verse fit your Faith Alone heresy as well. However once again you are blinded to the verse right next to it.

Jeremiah 17:10 I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give to each man according to his ways, According to the results of his deeds.

Ask yourself why God would search our heart if it was only evil, and our works/deeds are all filthy rags?
The answer is right there in the Bible as well...

Matt. 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

Out of the good heart comes good things, out of the evil heart comes bad.
This is the gospel 101, the gospel is about making bad men good and good men better, so that all can move onto perfection.
Seems your Sunday School teacher needs a good teacher.

theway, how tired I am of your saying that faith alone is heresy. If that is so, then Paul taught heresy. We know that the Bible was all about Israel and how God dealt with His chosen people but it is a book for all men, not just Israel. In it one finds solace, God's truths and what man needs to know to gain his/her salvation. The Bible has lasted for millennia and is still important for today. God sees the heart of man, He sees the heart of man and knows that it is evil. If it wasn't so, then Jesus Christ's entire life and death was in vain. Jesus came to seek and to save that which was lost. Sure, if people were to live entirely for God, man would be good but no one can do that. Our nature doesn't allow us to be 100% good. Even our thoughts are evil and God knows our thoughts even if we don't act on them. No one can be perfect as you claim, again it is not possible. Your BoM says that, the natural man is an enemy of God, why is that? Why is that stated if it wasn't so?
I again say how sorry I am that you have been made to believe doctrines that are not true but twist the precious scriptures to fit what JS taught and he was not a good man and no amount of studying the Bible for him would have made him a good man. This is true from the very words he spoke, that no man could enter heaven without his say so. He made himself to take the place of God for ONLY God has the right to say who can and can't enter heaven. And those who have rejected Jesus Christ, (the true Jesus Christ) not an intelligence who lived in heaven but was God himself, a part of the Godhead. So for me I also claim, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." Ephesians 2:8-9
Another verse says, "For ALL have sinned....." So the question must be asked, what is your definition of ALL?

[Apologette]

So.... You welcomed his comment that Mormons are morons?

Mormons aren't very deep thinkers. Why would anyone want to follow a punk like Smith - who has been documented to be a total fake? There has to be a vested interest. More and more people are actually looking up the history of the cult, and of Smith, and are stalking off - Mormonism is a dying cult.

[theway]

theway, how tired I am of your saying that faith alone is heresy. I can't help that, it is a heresy. Faith Alone is a late Protestant belief which even today is only believed by 12%-15% of those who call themselves Christian. Even then, if you go to any Calvinist or Evangelical forum you will see them still argue morning and night about just how far they want to go with that belief. Face it! You belong to a heretical minority sect of Christianity which has fooled itself into believing that their beliefs are actually representative of Christianity.
This is why I always ask why you guys why you are trying to force a belief upon us poor Mormons that you can not even get your own fellow "Christians" to fall for.

But don't worry, as I have said in the past; humans are generally lazy, and because Faith Alone if the lazy mans religion, it will one day become the majority opinion. But until then, it is a heresy to the rest of the vast majority of Christians.... Sorry to break the news to you (if it is indeed news to you)

[RealFakeHair]

I can't help that, it is a heresy. Faith Alone is a late Protestant belief which even today is only believed by 12%-15% of those who call themselves Christian. Even then, if you go to any Calvinist or Evangelical forum you will see them still argue morning and night about just how far they want to go with that belief. Face it! You belong to a heretical minority sect of Christianity which has fooled itself into believing that their beliefs are actually representative of Christianity.
This is why I always ask why you guys why you are trying to force a belief upon us poor Mormons that you can not even get your own fellow "Christians" to fall for.

But don't worry, as I have said in the past; humans are generally lazy, and because Faith Alone if the lazy mans religion, it will one day become the majority opinion. But until then, it is a heresy to the rest of the vast majority of Christians.... Sorry to break the news to you (if it is indeed news to you)

I say 100% Faith alone, and what is your percentage?

[neverending]

I can't help that, it is a heresy. Faith Alone is a late Protestant belief which even today is only believed by 12%-15% of those who call themselves Christian. Even then, if you go to any Calvinist or Evangelical forum you will see them still argue morning and night about just how far they want to go with that belief. Face it! You belong to a heretical minority sect of Christianity which has fooled itself into believing that their beliefs are actually representative of Christianity.
This is why I always ask why you guys why you are trying to force a belief upon us poor Mormons that you can not even get your own fellow "Christians" to fall for.

But don't worry, as I have said in the past; humans are generally lazy, and because Faith Alone if the lazy mans religion, it will one day become the majority opinion. But until then, it is a heresy to the rest of the vast majority of Christians.... Sorry to break the news to you (if it is indeed news to you)

Oh, how very sad indeed. Where are your scriptures to defend what you posted here? You purposely ignored my scriptures I gave you and I guess you are calling the Apostle Paul a liar, and he too is a heretic? For it was he who told us what I posted in Ephesians 2:8-9. Why do you ignore an important scripture verse? Why does it say in John, that whosoever believes in him, shall have everlasting life? BELIEVE! What does that word mean to you? Is believe not the same as FAITH?

Now, I want your references for all the nonsense you posted claiming that only 12-15% of Christians believe as I and James do. Where? And Mormons are NOT POOR!!! in the context you're using here. You want to play the victim?
Do look up John 4:10, "Jesus answered her and said, if you knew the GIFT OF GOD and who it is that asked you for a drink, you would have ASKED him and he would have GIVEN you living water." See, this woman only had to ASK! Acts 15:11, "NO! We believe it is through the GRACE of our Lord Jesus that we are SAVED, just as they are." Romans 3:24, "And ALL are justified freely by HIS GRACE, through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." Romans 9:16, "It does not, therefore depend on HUMAN DESIRE OR EFFORT but on God's MERCY." 1 Peter 1:5, "Who through FAITH are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time." So don't tell me that this is a recent invention!! ALL these verses have been within our Bibles for millennia. We are not some newly invented cult, that is your religion theway. I follow the true and living God, not a man. For God so loved the world.....course you've heard this so many times that it means nothing to you. Abraham was considered righteous because of his FAITH in God so go dust off your Bible and read and read with an open mind, not one clouded over with the falsehoods of Mormonism.
When I left Mormonism and was reading my scriptures one day, I had a very evident moment where I read things clearly for the first time.....and it was amazing! The scriptures opened up to me as they had never done before and so I call those moments, my AH HA moments and KNOW that it was the Holy Spirit that was speaking to me.

You think it is ok to insult me and James and those who believe in Faith alone? We are NOT LAZY! NO, in fact the opposite is true, for Mormons don't do their own thinking, for when your prophet has spoken, the thinking has been done. MAN....what a load of manure! Oh and do ponder this one; a church that has all the answers, doesn't allow any questions. That is Mormonism, plain and simple. Try questioning some point of doctrine openly, say in Priesthood meeting and see how soon you find yourself in the Bishop's office. Don't forget, I am calling for a reference here.

[Zeus]

Oh, how very sad indeed. Where are your scriptures to defend what you posted here? You purposely ignored my scriptures I gave you and I guess you are calling the Apostle Paul a liar, and he too is a heretic? For it was he who told us what I posted in Ephesians 2:8-9. Why do you ignore an important scripture verse? Why does it say in John, that whosoever believes in him, shall have everlasting life? BELIEVE! What does that word mean to you? Is believe not the same as FAITH?

Now, I want your references for all the nonsense you posted claiming that only 12-15% of Christians believe as I and James do. Where? And Mormons are NOT POOR!!! in the context you're using here. You want to play the victim?
Do look up John 4:10, "Jesus answered her and said, if you knew the GIFT OF GOD and who it is that asked you for a drink, you would have ASKED him and he would have GIVEN you living water." See, this woman only had to ASK! Acts 15:11, "NO! We believe it is through the GRACE of our Lord Jesus that we are SAVED, just as they are." Romans 3:24, "And ALL are justified freely by HIS GRACE, through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." Romans 9:16, "It does not, therefore depend on HUMAN DESIRE OR EFFORT but on God's MERCY." 1 Peter 1:5, "Who through FAITH are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time." So don't tell me that this is a recent invention!! ALL these verses have been within our Bibles for millennia. We are not some newly invented cult, that is your religion theway. I follow the true and living God, not a man. For God so loved the world.....course you've heard this so many times that it means nothing to you. Abraham was considered righteous because of his FAITH in God so go dust off your Bible and read and read with an open mind, not one clouded over with the falsehoods of Mormonism.
When I left Mormonism and was reading my scriptures one day, I had a very evident moment where I read things clearly for the first time.....and it was amazing! The scriptures opened up to me as they had never done before and so I call those moments, my AH HA moments and KNOW that it was the Holy Spirit that was speaking to me.

You think it is ok to insult me and James and those who believe in Faith alone? We are NOT LAZY! NO, in fact the opposite is true, for Mormons don't do their own thinking, for when your prophet has spoken, the thinking has been done. MAN....what a load of manure! Oh and do ponder this one; a church that has all the answers, doesn't allow any questions. That is Mormonism, plain and simple. Try questioning some point of doctrine openly, say in Priesthood meeting and see how soon you find yourself in the Bishop's office. Don't forget, I am calling for a reference here.

The only time the Bible speaks of faith and alone together is:

James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[alanmolstad]

The only time the Bible speaks of faith and alone together is:

James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Before men we are justified by works....that is easy to understand as we can only see the things we say and do.

but before god we are justified by faith, for God looks at our hidden thoughts of our heart.
God is not confused by the outward works of a man, but knows the deepest thoughts of the heart.


This is why we are saved by Grace though faith, and not by works.
For it is only Grace that saved, and the means is faith...

[Zeus]

Before men we are justified by works....that is easy to understand as we can only see the things we say and do.

but before god we are justified by faith, for God looks at our hidden thoughts of our heart.
God is not confused by the outward works of a man, but knows the deepest thoughts of the heart.


This is why we are saved by Grace though faith, and not by works.
For it is only Grace that saved, and the means is faith...

That isn't what the Bible verse I cited said.

You are adding your own interpretations.

Just read it. Pretty plain and simple without the need for extravagant philosophizing.

[alanmolstad]

That isn't what the Bible verse I cited said.

You are adding your own interpretations.

Just read it. Pretty plain and simple without the need for extravagant philosophizing.

You mean the verse that teaches that we are saved by Grace....?

try this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M

[alanmolstad]

so as we learn here -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M
that there is a Justification by Works, and a Justification by Faith.

The Justification by Works is before men.
and the Justification by Faith is before god.

The Lord also tells us what is "the" work of God....."the" = the only work of god required, and that is to "believe" in the lord Jesus.

So it is not by works that we are justified before God, but rather by faith.

[alanmolstad]

this is why the thief on the cross received the same salvation that all christians receive.

the thief had no works, .....but had faith.

and the faith was counted as righteousness by the lord onto salvation.
For the thief had no works, but had faith...and if you have faith you do not lack anything!

[theway]

Why does it say in John, that whosoever believes in him, shall have everlasting life? BELIEVE! What does that word mean to you? Is believe not the same as FAITH? No it absolutely is not,
It looks like I'm going to have to school you again... Or should I say Sunday School you.
James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.
So as you can see...
If belief was enough, then the demons would be saved.

Nor is faith alone enough for salvation...
James 2:17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Do you believe you can be saved by a dead faith?


So don't tell me that this is a recent invention!! I'm sorry that this came as such a shock to you, but it is a modern invention. Even the Protestant Fathers believed that baptism, sacraments, and good works were required for salvation. Faith Alone has only been around for about 350 years. Even today Orthodox Christian (what you would consider a works based religion) still make up 65% of Christian. With that, only 50% of the remaining Protestants believe in a true Faith Alone.



Abraham was considered righteous because of his FAITH in God so go dust off your Bible and read and read with an open mind,...Once again you err, trying to make this into a Faith Alone verse. Here, let me continue your schooling.
The Jews who were the first Christians were being chastised for requiring "The works of The Law" to gentile converts (do you understand what The Law means or do you need me to explain that as well?).
Paul was logically pointing out that if someone can only be righteous by "the Law" [the laws of Moses] then how can they believe that Abraham was righteous if he lived before the law was given? Paul as not nullifying good works.

How exactly was Abraham saved then. Well that is clear from those parts of the Bible you have not looked in....
James 2:20-22 20. But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22. You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;



for Mormons don't do their own thinking, for when your prophet has spoken, the thinking has been done.

Another misrepresentation based on AntiMormon nonsense...

Joseph Smith, "We have heard men who hold the Priesthood remark, that they would do any thing they were told to do by those who presided over them, if they knew it was wrong: but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God, who seeks for the redemption of his fellows, would despise the idea of seeing another become his slave, who had an equal right with himself to the favour of God; he would rather see him stand by his side, a sworn enemy to wrong, so long as there was place found for it among men. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty (!) authority, have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the Saints were told to do by their Presidents, they should do it without asking any questions.

"When the Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience, as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves, and wish to pave the way to accomplish that wrong; or else because they have done wrong, and wish to use the cloak of their authority to cover it with, lest it should be discovered by their superiors, who would require an atonement at their hands." (Priesthood, Millennial Star v.14 no.38 (13 November 1852), 594–95)

Brigham Young "...Now those men, or those women, who know no more about the power of God, and the influences of the Holy Spirit, than to be led entirely by another person, suspending their own understanding, and pinning their faith upon another's sleeve, will never be capable of entering into the celestial glory,

President Joseph F. Smith "We talk of obedience, but do we require any man or woman to ignorantly obey the counsels that are given? Do the First Presidency require it? No, never." (Journal of Discources (JD) 16:248)

George Q. Cannon "Do not, brethren, put your trust in man though he be a bishop, an apostle, or a president. If you do, they will fail you at some time or place; they will do wrong or seem to, and your support be gone;" (Millennial Star 53:658-59, quoted in Gospel Truth, 1:319)

There is more if you want?
MAN....what a load of manure! Oh and do ponder this one; a church that has all the answers, doesn't allow any questions. That is Mormonism, plain and simple. Try questioning some point of doctrine openly, say in Priesthood meeting and see how soon you find yourself in the Bishop's office. You are being contradictory... Mormons love when people ask questions! But you notice what you wrote? You said you "were questioning" or you questioned. Questioning is doubting... God NEVER works with doubt, only Satan does. This is why you failed.

[neverending]

No it absolutely is not,
It looks like I'm going to have to school you again... Or should I say Sunday School you.
James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.
So as you can see...
If belief was enough, then the demons would be saved.

James 2:17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Do you believe you can be saved by a dead faith?

I'm sorry that this came as such a shock to you, but it is a modern invention. Even the Protestant Fathers believed that baptism, sacraments, and good works were required for salvation. Faith Alone has only been around for about 350 years. Even today Orthodox Christian (what you would consider a works based religion) still make up 65% of Christian. With that, only 50% of the remaining Protestants believe in a true Faith Alone.

Once again you err, trying to make this into a Faith Alone verse. Here, let me continue your schooling.
The Jews who were the first Christians were being chastised for requiring "The works of The Law" to gentile converts (do you understand what The Law means or do you need me to explain that as well?).
Paul was logically pointing out that if someone can only be righteous by "the Law" [the laws of Moses] then how can they believe that Abraham was righteous if he lived before the law was given? Paul as not nullifying good works.

How exactly was Abraham saved then. Well that is clear from those parts of the Bible you have not looked in....
James 2:20-22 20. But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22. You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;




Another misrepresentation based on AntiMormon nonsense...

Joseph Smith, "We have heard men who hold the Priesthood remark, that they would do any thing they were told to do by those who presided over them, if they knew it was wrong: but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God, who seeks for the redemption of his fellows, would despise the idea of seeing another become his slave, who had an equal right with himself to the favour of God; he would rather see him stand by his side, a sworn enemy to wrong, so long as there was place found for it among men. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty (!) authority, have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the Saints were told to do by their Presidents, they should do it without asking any questions.

"When the Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience, as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves, and wish to pave the way to accomplish that wrong; or else because they have done wrong, and wish to use the cloak of their authority to cover it with, lest it should be discovered by their superiors, who would require an atonement at their hands." (Priesthood, Millennial Star v.14 no.38 (13 November 1852), 594–95)

Brigham Young "...Now those men, or those women, who know no more about the power of God, and the influences of the Holy Spirit, than to be led entirely by another person, suspending their own understanding, and pinning their faith upon another's sleeve, will never be capable of entering into the celestial glory,

President Joseph F. Smith "We talk of obedience, but do we require any man or woman to ignorantly obey the counsels that are given? Do the First Presidency require it? No, never." (Journal of Discources (JD) 16:248)

George Q. Cannon "Do not, brethren, put your trust in man though he be a bishop, an apostle, or a president. If you do, they will fail you at some time or place; they will do wrong or seem to, and your support be gone;" (Millennial Star 53:658-59, quoted in Gospel Truth, 1:319)

There is more if you want?

BTW, demons have a head knowledge of God but NOT a heart knowledge, a total difference. You as well only have a head knowledge but you are as the demons too.
What you say is all good and fine but I know different....I lived it, I lived among you, having been a Mormon born and raised. I know how members are treated. I know that if a man is wealthy he is looked at favorably. I have seen how a woman who gave of herself to your church and in her time of need was ignored. So please don't patronize me with all your ****! I KNOW! It is shameful how members of your church treat one another, I've been on the receiving end of insensitive members. I've sat across from a Branch President asking for help for two small children who's mother was in the hospital with major depression and was alone having been divorced and the husband out of the picture. This woman and her girls were des***ute and it was the dead of winter in N. Dakota. No gloves, boots a warm hat or a way for the one girl to ****on her coat. They had nothing!! I cut ****ons off my own coat and sewed them onto that little girls so she could be warm when going to school. The Branch President told me, "there will be no help for those girls because, their mother doesn't attend her meetings as she should." I sat there shocked, I didn't even know what to say and left bewildered and ashamed of my church. It was then and there that I began to actually hate being a Mormon. How could my wealthy church deny help to young children and base it on what their mother did? And how could my church be so cold and calloused? This man should have gone to the hospital to see about this woman and see how she was doing, not turning his back on the needs of small children. SHAMEFUL! At that time James and I had very little ourselves. James had only two stripes at that time, as he served our country during Viet Nam with the Air Force. We lived in a one bedroom apartment and our son was only 9 months old, we kept his crib in a small walk in closet. So, theway, don't tell me that I don't know! You make me so angry I could scream! You come on here acting so smug and arrogant and it is that very at***ude that turns me off about your church! So go your way, I have no more need to speak to you for your mind is closed, God has not chosen you to be part of his family due to your hardened heart. Your trust in an evil and mentally ill man has lead you down the wide road, which leads to destruction....it is the easy road. You have your secret ceremonies in your expensive temples, do your work for the dead even though it helps no one and Christ never taught anything about temple marriage, nothing. WHY? Go about thinking what you're doing is earning you brownie points with God and you'll gain your exaltation so you think. Keep believing in fairy tales if that is what you want but in the end all the wonderful things you've done won't amount to a hill of beans and God will tell you to depart from me, I never knew you! There will be a lot of crying and begging but it won't do you or anyone any good......it will be to late.

[Zeus]

BTW, demons have a head knowledge of God but NOT a heart knowledge, a total difference.

But the heart is deceitful.

[theway]

BTW, demons have a head knowledge of God but NOT a heart knowledge, a total difference. You as well only have a head knowledge but you are as the demons too.
What you say is all good and fine but I know different....I lived it, I lived among you, having been a Mormon born and raised. I know how members are treated. I know that if a man is wealthy he is looked at favorably. I have seen how a woman who gave of herself to your church and in her time of need was ignored. So please don't patronize me with all your ****! I KNOW! It is shameful how members of your church treat one another, I've been on the receiving end of insensitive members. I've sat across from a Branch President asking for help for two small children who's mother was in the hospital with major depression and was alone having been divorced and the husband out of the picture. This woman and her girls were des***ute and it was the dead of winter in N. Dakota. No gloves, boots a warm hat or a way for the one girl to ****on her coat. They had nothing!! I cut ****ons off my own coat and sewed them onto that little girls so she could be warm when going to school. The Branch President told me, "there will be no help for those girls because, their mother doesn't attend her meetings as she should." I sat there shocked, I didn't even know what to say and left bewildered and ashamed of my church. It was then and there that I began to actually hate being a Mormon. How could my wealthy church deny help to young children and base it on what their mother did? And how could my church be so cold and calloused? This man should have gone to the hospital to see about this woman and see how she was doing, not turning his back on the needs of small children. SHAMEFUL! At that time James and I had very little ourselves. James had only two stripes at that time, as he served our country during Viet Nam with the Air Force. We lived in a one bedroom apartment and our son was only 9 months old, we kept his crib in a small walk in closet. So, theway, don't tell me that I don't know! You make me so angry I could scream! You come on here acting so smug and arrogant and it is that very at***ude that turns me off about your church! So go your way, I have no more need to speak to you for your mind is closed, God has not chosen you to be part of his family due to your hardened heart. Your trust in an evil and mentally ill man has lead you down the wide road, which leads to destruction....it is the easy road. You have your secret ceremonies in your expensive temples, do your work for the dead even though it helps no one and Christ never taught anything about temple marriage, nothing. WHY? Go about thinking what you're doing is earning you brownie points with God and you'll gain your exaltation so you think. Keep believing in fairy tales if that is what you want but in the end all the wonderful things you've done won't amount to a hill of beans and God will tell you to depart from me, I never knew you! There will be a lot of crying and begging but it won't do you or anyone any good......it will be to late.
LOL....


A perfect example of the contradictory nature of AntiMormon Faith Aloners.

They will not have anything to do with a church that requires good works...
But they will reject a church because they didn't do good works...

You couldn't make this type of comedy up.

[alanmolstad]

there is value in the use of paragraphs people

[alanmolstad]

So Im not adding to the Word of God at all when I tell a person that we are saved by Grace though faith, and not by works.
And that if a person wants to know what works are required by God?...that i would tell him that there is only "one work" that god seeks in us, and that is to believe in His son.

Thats it!

Just one act of faith and you have p***ed from death onto Life eternal.
Just like the thief on the cross, who though he was nailed to a cross for his errors, yet he found his faith in Jesus.
And his confession of faith is counted as righteousness.

So before men we are justified by works, for men judge the appearance of things they can see.
but before God we are justified by faith, for God sees the heart

[theway]

So Im not adding to the Word of God at all when I tell a person that we are saved by Grace though faith, and not by works.
And that if a person wants to know what works are required by God?...that i would tell him that there is only "one work" that god seeks in us, and that is to believe in His son.

Thats it!Please..... Even you do not believe that!
The proof is simple.... I sincerely believe is His Son, am I therefore saved?



Just one act of faith and you have p***ed from death onto Life eternal.
Just like the thief on the cross, who though he was nailed to a cross for his errors, yet he found his faith in Jesus.
And his confession of faith is counted as righteousness.
You just got through talking about not adding to God's Word, and then you go about creating a whole theology, dogma and religion around a Thief on a Cross.
The whole extent of what we know about the person on the cross, (we are not even sure he was a thief) was that Jesus told him that he would be in the spirit world with Him at some point (since there is no puncuation in the Greek we don't even know if Jesus meant "Truely I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise" or "Truely I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise") even that part of the scripture was a guess by the translators. Most believe that because we know Christ was not in Heaven for three days, then the comma should come after today.
LOL.....
The irony is that for the LDS, either way works, but to Faith Alone believers, neither way works.

[neverending]

Please..... Even you do not believe that!
The proof is simple.... I sincerely believe is His Son, am I therefore saved?


You just got through talking about not adding to God's Word, and then you go about creating a whole theology, dogma and religion around a Thief on a Cross.
The whole extent of what we know about the person on the cross, (we are not even sure he was a thief) was that Jesus told him that he would be in the spirit world with Him at some point (since there is no puncuation in the Greek we don't even know if Jesus meant "Truely I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise" or "Truely I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise") even that part of the scripture was a guess by the translators. Most believe that because we know Christ was not in Heaven for three days, then the comma should come after today.
LOL.....
The irony is that for the LDS, either way works, but to Faith Alone believers, neither way works.

You take a lot onto yourself don't you? In Matthew 27:38, it says, "there were two thieves crucified with him (Jesus) when on the right hand, one on the left." Man, are you so blind as to not see what is written in black and white? We know for a fact through this very verse that the other men hanging on crosses next to Christ were indeed thieves! Christ never used the words. "Spirit world" to these two men, he told the one, "today shalt thou be with me in Paradise." "Verily I say unto thee." This was no blanket statement or impersonal response. The Lord made a personal promise to one who had a particular need. A man who understood that the punishment that he was receiving was what he deserved but he also knew that Christ didn't deserve his punishment and recognized who He was, and called him "Lord". Jesus didn’t condemn or judge this thief for the crimes he had committed. Because of his recognition and acceptance of Christ, our Lord accepted him based upon his faith. Yes, faith alone! Those two words that have thrown you for a loop and you rail against them. There's nothing hard about the gospel of Christ. There is hope for all humanity in this simple statement. None are beyond the reach and comp***ion of Christ. None have lived so wickedly or gone beyond the Lord’s ability to save. He will turn none away who come in faith, believing. I am glad that I was accepted of Him, having nothing to offer. I worship an awesome God and praise Him daily, giving him the honor and glory that He deserves. That is today's Sunday school lesson, you should come more often though.

[James Banta]

I answered your questions stating beforehand that you were not interested in having your questioned answered.
I have no intention of reading your reply because I know my point was made.
You only question as it gives you a platform in which to rant on.

What worse is that you have no idea about the gospel or what Christ taught.

When your answers give two contradicting responses there is no answer other than you want things both ways.. What ever people say to you is fine in your doctrine.. Is salvation by God's grace through faith and not of works. Sure but you can't be saved without doing good works.. Does that make sense? And the Lord you God is one Lord, except that there are three Gods and not one.. God spoke to the people in the past through prophets but today He specks through Jesus except that His church is directed by a prophet.. You have talked a lot, but the problem is you have said NOTHING..

When you finally come to the knowledge of the true message of God then maybe you will see what the Gospel really is.. The good News that God have given His Son as an atonement for our sin if we come to Hm in faith asking to become His child.. To know for sure we have become acceptable to God and when He calls us Home we are guaranteed a place in His presence.. IHS jim

[neverending]

I answered your questions stating beforehand that you were not interested in having your questioned answered.
I have no intention of reading your reply because I know my point was made.
You only question as it gives you a platform in which to rant on.

What worse is that you have no idea about the gospel or what Christ taught.

If James has no idea about the gospel of Christ, how about you telling him and myself what you think it really is? I would like to know. Who knows, my idea all these years could be wrong...I doubt it but it would be nice to hear what you think the gospel is that Christ taught.

[James Banta]

LOL... see what I mean....
AntiMormons don't ask questions to know answers, or understand doctrine.
They question
Then they ask rhetorical questions
Then they question one's integrity with backhanded insults

There certainly is no questioning of their motives or the spirit which drives them.

We ask questions to get you to see that the LDS gospel is not the Gospel that Jesus gave us, not the Gospel that Paul taught but instead is a different gospel. We already know the answers you will give to us. Answers that are NOT found i the Bible but are taught in error by their leaders from Smith down to today. Smith taught there there are three Gods, Today mormon leadership agree with that teaching that saying that Jesus is the Christ, the literal Son of God, which I agree that He is, but He is also the Mighty God, the everlasting Father, the Prince of peace, the Word that was with the Father from the beginning, the Word that is God. From those ***les this the LDS recoil. We ask questions that forces you to look at the Bible and stop cherry picking your doctrine but accept it all. Yes Jesus is the literal Son of God having had His flesh created by God within the womb of His mother Mary. He is also the God that created ALL things visible, and invisible. You have to have a doctrine that allows the Bible to be God's truth as it teaches tht the Lord our God is one Lord and still allows the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, three separate persons to be that one true God.. Moronism just doesn't allow that.. Iy has change it's doctrine into a polytheistic belief that the Lords our Gods are three Lords..

You will noticed we have never made up a scripture where we insult your teachers.. I don't believe that we have ever insulted the bishops of your wards. but that didn't stop Smith from putting words in the mouth of Jesus to call our local Church pastors corrupt. Teachers of the doctrine of men. And here you are crying boo hoo because we ask you questions that you can't and haven't even attempted to answer with the Bible.. I know why you have made personal argument for your position.. It's because you have no Biblical argument to support what you teach.. I know you hater the questions.. If you opened your eyes you would understand why we ask them.. If you could question Christianity for any position it hold such as the eternal security of the believer i am sure you would point it out.. But there is none.. You have tried to do so in quoting Hebrews 5:9 but shrink from the facts that in our selves NO ONE OBEYS HIM. That righteousness is only available through Him in His work of imputing those who believe with His righteousness (Romans 4:22-24). So show us all again how the Christianity we teach here is false and mormonism is correct.. That would be something to observe.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

So Im not adding to the Word of God at all when I tell a person that we are saved by Grace though faith, and not by works.
And that if a person wants to know what works are required by God?...that i would tell him that there is only "one work" that god seeks in us, and that is to believe in His son.

Thats it!

Just one act of faith and you have p***ed from death onto Life eternal.
Just like the thief on the cross, who though he was nailed to a cross for his errors, yet he found his faith in Jesus.
And his confession of faith is counted as righteousness.

So before men we are justified by works, for men judge the appearance of things they can see.
but before God we are justified by faith, for God sees the heart

Part of my *** around here is to go over the new posts, look for any issues, and pay attention to any new Private Messages sent to the Forum Staff, as well other duties.
Along the way I like to keep an eye out for the topics that are being looked at my non-registered guests.

Now for some reason this topic comes up a lot in the viewing of new and unregistered guests here?....
Many of such guests arrive here each day due to a GOOGLE SEARCH that they were on that had our WM Forum pop up on.

I can understand that,,,

But I don't really understand how this topic keeps being the hit on such searches?
The name "moron" at the beginning might have something to do with it perhaps?

But it seems more likely that what is going on all the time is that people that know about this topic and this website from past time here, are returning again and again to go over the past posts.





Anyway, I have no objection to any of this visiting regardless for whatever reason brings people here.

This site is up and running in the Name of Walter Martin as a way for people with questions to come and seek answers on their own without anyone else knowing that are are searching.
It is a great place to come and find information.

The way this site has been able to keep older posts and topics up for others to see and learn from is such a great resource for Mormons who have started to have doubts about Smith and the whole religion they are in.



Take care,