Christians in general or just the critics of LDS?

[Snow Patrol]

I have been seeing a few times on here lately how a critic of the LDS faith will post an experience or two with LDS and seem to imply that all LDS are like that. I have also personally talked to others critical of the church and found that they too present an experience or two as representative of the LDS as a whole. I wonder, is this normal for all Christians or is it just the critics of the LDS faith?

Also, would it be proper to portray this sentiment in reverse? Should I extrapolate that all Christians are mean, or rude, or insincere because I've personally experienced that from my dealings with a few Christians?

[RealFakeHair]

I have been seeing a few times on here lately how a critic of the LDS faith will post an experience or two with LDS and seem to imply that all LDS are like that. I have also personally talked to others critical of the church and found that they too present an experience or two as representative of the LDS as a whole. I wonder, is this normal for all Christians or is it just the critics of the LDS faith?

Also, would it be proper to portray this sentiment in reverse? Should I extrapolate that all Christians are mean, or rude, or insincere because I've personally experienced that from my dealings with a few Christians?

For the most part the LDSinc. TBM I come in contact with are just normal people. There is a problem with LDSinc. contractors though, over the years many have had complaints filed against them. However that is par the course for lots of contractors. As for LDSinc. missionaries they seem to be to young and too uninformed. I have met only one missionary that I felt was sincere in his conversation with me, I still have his post-card he mailed me from his return trip back to Utah.

[neverending]

I have been seeing a few times on here lately how a critic of the LDS faith will post an experience or two with LDS and seem to imply that all LDS are like that. I have also personally talked to others critical of the church and found that they too present an experience or two as representative of the LDS as a whole. I wonder, is this normal for all Christians or is it just the critics of the LDS faith?

Also, would it be proper to portray this sentiment in reverse? Should I extrapolate that all Christians are mean, or rude, or insincere because I've personally experienced that from my dealings with a few Christians?

Snow, nice to see you here again and hope all is well with you. You make a point with this thread but you can extrapolate away. If someone were investigating Mormonism and was treated rudely would you not agree that it would be a big turn off for that person? Of course it would. My feelings for the LDS Church are immense. I was treated badly for all my life by members from not only the Ward I grew up in but even from Branches that James and I lived in while he served our country during Viet Nam. I had always been told that living in the Mission field would be very different then what I had known living here in the Salt Lake Valley but, no, I saw no difference. People looking down their noses at those members who were poor and a Branch President who allowed little children to go without because as he put it, "these children won't receive any help because their mother doesn't attend her meetings as she should." Now this poor mother was recently divorced, suffered from major depression and an absentee father for the children. James and I were asked by this mother to care for her two girls as her depression had become to much for her and she needed to be hospitalized. Yes, I became very angry at the callous way that my church could treat children who had done nothing. If you've experienced rudeness from Christians, I am sorry but I've yet to be told, "I am sorry for anything I endured." There is such a difference in my eyes.
And let's not forget that it was your own founder and self proclaimed prophet who told the world that he should join none of the churches of his day, that their Pastors were all corrupt, etc. etc. I don't need to tell you what JS said about his vision. So, the gauntlet was thrown down and we as Christians are to sit back and not be upset that our Pastors were and are considered corrupt? If the Christian churches are corrupt, why then does your church, want to make themselves look Christian? Mormonism, a real enigma.

[Snow Patrol]

Snow, nice to see you here again and hope all is well with you. You make a point with this thread but you can extrapolate away. If someone were investigating Mormonism and was treated rudely would you not agree that it would be a big turn off for that person? Of course it would. My feelings for the LDS Church are immense. I was treated badly for all my life by members from not only the Ward I grew up in but even from Branches that James and I lived in while he served our country during Viet Nam. I had always been told that living in the Mission field would be very different then what I had known living here in the Salt Lake Valley but, no, I saw no difference. People looking down their noses at those members who were poor and a Branch President who allowed little children to go without because as he put it, "these children won't receive any help because their mother doesn't attend her meetings as she should." Now this poor mother was recently divorced, suffered from major depression and an absentee father for the children. James and I were asked by this mother to care for her two girls as her depression had become to much for her and she needed to be hospitalized. Yes, I became very angry at the callous way that my church could treat children who had done nothing.

That's just the thing. You say the church, but in reality it was the Branch President. I'm in charge of the finances for the Stake in my area and know first-hand for 8 wards what money is being spent on. I can confidently say that more than half of the recepients are not active members.



If you've experienced rudeness from Christians, I am sorry but I've yet to be told, "I am sorry for anything I endured." There is such a difference in my eyes.

Are you looking for the apology from those that hurt you or from anyone? I am sorry that anyone is hurt by another, whether they are LDS or not. I'm sorry that you were hurt. I harbor no ill feelings towards those "Christians." I put it in quotes because they acted in the name of Christ but I'm not sure they were REALLY Christians.



And let's not forget that it was your own founder and self proclaimed prophet who told the world that he should join none of the churches of his day, that their Pastors were all corrupt, etc. etc. I don't need to tell you what JS said about his vision. So, the gauntlet was thrown down and we as Christians are to sit back and not be upset that our Pastors were and are considered corrupt? If the Christian churches are corrupt, why then does your church, want to make themselves look Christian? Mormonism, a real enigma.

Not really sure how that applies to this topic. But I see that you've been reading James' posts. ;-) Ha ha.

[alanmolstad]

I have been seeing a few times on here lately how a critic of the LDS faith will post an experience or two with LDS and seem to imply that all LDS are like that.

if you check out my topics on FIG (and how different he was than other posters) you might learn that perhaps your view of us Christians is a bit short-sighted...

Not that it ain't fun to lump us all in the same sack....but....

[theway]

I have been seeing a few times on here lately how a critic of the LDS faith will post an experience or two with LDS and seem to imply that all LDS are like that. I have also personally talked to others critical of the church and found that they too present an experience or two as representative of the LDS as a whole. I wonder, is this normal for all Christians or is it just the critics of the LDS faith?

Also, would it be proper to portray this sentiment in reverse? Should I extrapolate that all Christians are mean, or rude, or insincere because I've personally experienced that from my dealings with a few Christians?Yeah I've always found that funny.
I have told them many a time that I would love to attend the Ward they said they belonged to, where all they ever talk about in Sunday School is becoming God, worshiping Joseph Smith, planning blood Atonements, and fantasize all day about eternal group sex.

I'm being serious! I would love to attend such a Ward, ours is boring, all we talk about is Christ and perfecting ourselves through repentance, forgiveness and good works...... Boring.

[Snow Patrol]

if you check out my topics on FIG (and how different he was than other posters) you might learn that perhaps your view of us Christians is a bit short-sighted...

Not that it ain't fun to lump us all in the same sack....but....

No, I'm aware of your posts regarding Fig. Those were nice to read. However, if you notice I didn't say all critics here. I'm not sure I've ever seen you make this kind of extrapolation that I'm referring to. There are some that after reading their accounts, you have to wonder whether they think ALL LDS act that way.

[alanmolstad]

my point is that some people have a history that tends to paint everyone with the same color.

others seem to not catch on to the common problem seen in many people's reactions.

I see clearly that most of the Mormons I run into here have an at***ude.
I guess that when someone in any Cult looks at my words that they right away lump me into the same sack as Oral Roberts.

but what i think i can also show is that i do notice when some guys stuck in a Cult do NOT have an at***ude.

[neverending]

That's just the thing. You say the church, but in reality it was the Branch President. I'm in charge of the finances for the Stake in my area and know first-hand for 8 wards what money is being spent on. I can confidently say that more than half of the recepients are not active members.




Are you looking for the apology from those that hurt you or from anyone? I am sorry that anyone is hurt by another, whether they are LDS or not. I'm sorry that you were hurt. I harbor no ill feelings towards those "Christians." I put it in quotes because they acted in the name of Christ but I'm not sure they were REALLY Christians.




Not really sure how that applies to this topic. But I see that you've been reading James' posts. ;-) Ha ha.

Snow.....it was kind of you to take it upon yourself to apologize for the hurts that were caused by many members I ran into so many years ago. It would not be possible to have each one say they are sorry for some have p***ed away but thank you. As for the others, they probably aren't even aware of the hurt they caused. For one it was the girls who I grew up with in my Ward that excluded me because I didn't have a wealthy father as they did. Ever heard of Thatcher Chemical, or Layton Construction? These are two very well known companies here in Salt Lake and the owners of these companies lived in my Ward. It was their daughters who were so cruel, making fun of me, sticking their noses in the air and like I said, excluding me. Let me just say that to counter their cruel ways, I decided that I wouldn't speak to them and in High School some thought me a snot. That's ok for it was my way of building a wall around myself. We also had business men, attorneys and a doctor in my Ward but my father worked for the Post Office and walked a mail route. He worked hard and for many years worked that *** plus a second one so we could have the things we needed. He loved the Lord and for seven years before he p***ed away, he worked in the Salt Lake Temple and I know he was proud to be able to do that.
I have to disagree with you about the Branch President because he was appointed by the leaders of your church to hold that position and so he represented your church did he not? A shame that he didn't have any comp***ion nor did the Relief Society President....something to this day I can't understand. I don't understand how when my mother was ill having had 3 surgeries and coming home, no one was there to offer her any help. Not even her Visiting Teacher. A good thing I was 17 at the time and able to step up to the plate and take over the house hold duties. My mother taught me well, and she is missed very much, her wisdom and example; she was always the first one to help a sick neighbor or friend. She taught me to think of others first and I've tried to do that. Ok sorry for going on so but I do blame the Branch President and he will stand in judgment for his lack of kindness. Even Christ said, "when you've done it unto the least of these my brethren, you've done it unto me." (Matt. 25:40) Wish I had thought of that verse as I sat before the Branch President but I felt intimidated and was so young.

[Snow Patrol]

Snow.....it was kind of you to take it upon yourself to apologize for the hurts that were caused by many members I ran into so many years ago. It would not be possible to have each one say they are sorry for some have p***ed away but thank you. As for the others, they probably aren't even aware of the hurt they caused. For one it was the girls who I grew up with in my Ward that excluded me because I didn't have a wealthy father as they did. Ever heard of Thatcher Chemical, or Layton Construction? These are two very well known companies here in Salt Lake and the owners of these companies lived in my Ward. It was their daughters who were so cruel, making fun of me, sticking their noses in the air and like I said, excluding me. Let me just say that to counter their cruel ways, I decided that I wouldn't speak to them and in High School some thought me a snot. That's ok for it was my way of building a wall around myself. We also had business men, attorneys and a doctor in my Ward but my father worked for the Post Office and walked a mail route. He worked hard and for many years worked that *** plus a second one so we could have the things we needed. He loved the Lord and for seven years before he p***ed away, he worked in the Salt Lake Temple and I know he was proud to be able to do that.

But isn't that typical teenage girls stuff? TV shows and movies are made based on that kind of behavior. I don't think it is exclusive to LDS or that it was because they were LDS that they acted that way.



I have to disagree with you about the Branch President because he was appointed by the leaders of your church to hold that position and so he represented your church did he not? A shame that he didn't have any comp***ion nor did the Relief Society President....something to this day I can't understand. I don't understand how when my mother was ill having had 3 surgeries and coming home, no one was there to offer her any help. Not even her Visiting Teacher. A good thing I was 17 at the time and able to step up to the plate and take over the house hold duties. My mother taught me well, and she is missed very much, her wisdom and example; she was always the first one to help a sick neighbor or friend. She taught me to think of others first and I've tried to do that. Ok sorry for going on so but I do blame the Branch President and he will stand in judgment for his lack of kindness. Even Christ said, "when you've done it unto the least of these my brethren, you've done it unto me." (Matt. 25:40) Wish I had thought of that verse as I sat before the Branch President but I felt intimidated and was so young.

I place blame on the Branch President as well. He will have to stand before God and explain his actions. However, all I can say is that it is my belief that this was not taught to him by the Church. I believe he may have just been this way because of who he was. If the Relief Society President was in the same branch as this Branch President then again I blame the Branch President. Won't you admit that you really don't believe the Church teaches people to act this way? Or do you really believe in your heart that the LDS Church really does teach and leads people to treat others in this manner?

[alanmolstad]

Or do you really believe in your heart that the LDS Church really does teach and leads people to treat others in this manner?

You ask her a hard question to prove.

Lets say its true....Lets say that the mormon church does teach in a manner that leads a lot of people to treat others in this manner...

how do you expect anyone to prove this?

we are just normal people here....we dont know everything that goes on in the world...we dont have total information on all things.
And even if a person heard story after story of the same things happening, would it not all just be credited as "isolated incidents" ?

Even if you got a list of all the times the same stuff was happening, would it not look like the list was fake?...or did not take into account other factors?

I dont think that there is anyway a normal average person will ever be able to know for sure the answer to your question...

I think at best what a person should do is to speak up when and where they can, tell others what happened, and help others that had the same thing happen to them to feel united and knowing that they suffer with others , and help them overcome anger and bitterness, and find strength in Christ who also suffered by the hands of the same types...

[Snow Patrol]

You ask her a hard question to prove.

Lets say its true....Lets say that the mormon church does teach in a manner that leads a lot of people to treat others in this manner...

how do you expect anyone to prove this?

One would think that with the internet and the accessibility of documentation that you could easily show talks, scriptures, etc that show that we believe people should be treated this way.



we are just normal people here....we dont know everything that goes on in the world...we dont have total information on all things.
And even if a person heard story after story of the same things happening, would it not all just be credited as "isolated incidents" ?

Quite possibly. But when these stories either have similarities to normal human behavior, ie teenage girls being mean, or diametrically oppose years and years of experience that I have seen, ie my being responsible for finances for both wards and a stake for years, then I have to wonder why someone seems to believe that all LDS act a certain way.



Even if you got a list of all the times the same stuff was happening, would it not look like the list was fake?...or did not take into account other factors?

That is exactly my question. Is it fair to take one's personal experiences with a particular group and extrapolate that to all possible members of a group. I could create a list of personal experience myself about treatment by Christians. Would you readily accept it as representative of all Christians?


[/quote]I dont think that there is anyway a normal average person will ever be able to know for sure the answer to your question...

I think at best what a person should do is to speak up when and where they can, tell others what happened, and help others that had the same thing happen to them to feel united and knowing that they suffer with others , and help them overcome anger and bitterness, and find strength in Christ who also suffered by the hands of the same types...[/QUOTE]

Sure, that can and should do that. But what they should be careful to not do is make it seem like it is a systematic problem with in reality it is/was an unique situation.

[RealFakeHair]

One would think that with the internet and the accessibility of documentation that you could easily show talks, scriptures, etc that show that we believe people should be treated this way.
September Dawn. Mormon Meadow M***acre.



Quite possibly. But when these stories either have similarities to normal human behavior, ie teenage girls being mean, or diametrically oppose years and years of experience that I have seen, ie my being responsible for finances for both wards and a stake for years, then I have to wonder why someone seems to believe that all LDS act a certain way.




That is exactly my question. Is it fair to take one's personal experiences with a particular group and extrapolate that to all possible members of a group. I could create a list of personal experience myself about treatment by Christians. Would you readily accept it as representative of all Christians?


I dont think that there is anyway a normal average person will ever be able to know for sure the answer to your question...

I think at best what a person should do is to speak up when and where they can, tell others what happened, and help others that had the same thing happen to them to feel united and knowing that they suffer with others , and help them overcome anger and bitterness, and find strength in Christ who also suffered by the hands of the same types...[/QUOTE]

Sure, that can and should do that. But what they should be careful to not do is make it seem like it is a systematic problem with in reality it is/was an unique situation.[/QUOTE]

[alanmolstad]

One would think that with the internet and the accessibility of documentation that you could easily .
every day there are stories of how people were shocked by the plans of evil men to fool others....
Never underestimate the ability of evil to cloud men's minds.

There is a type of blindness that overcomes the heart of the "true Believer"......
Add to this the "oaths" and the threats......and you have a ripe setting for all kinds of trouble , that we on the outside can only guess at.

So if what we have seen going on in this one story were something that was actually a common happening , I doubt there would ever be a way to know or prove it.

It will always be just a "story",,,,just one person with a story, and there are other people with their story too...

[neverending]

But isn't that typical teenage girls stuff? TV shows and movies are made based on that kind of behavior. I don't think it is exclusive to LDS or that it was because they were LDS that they acted that way.




I place blame on the Branch President as well. He will have to stand before God and explain his actions. However, all I can say is that it is my belief that this was not taught to him by the Church. I believe he may have just been this way because of who he was. If the Relief Society President was in the same branch as this Branch President then again I blame the Branch President. Won't you admit that you really don't believe the Church teaches people to act this way? Or do you really believe in your heart that the LDS Church really does teach and leads people to treat others in this manner?

Snow, I never accused your church of teaching members to behave badly, they teach that members should live a Christ-like life. I have nothing against your church teaching those ideas, but what I do find objectionable is how many members I've known over the years who have failed to even try to live a Christ-like life. Why so many? I was raised in a Ward where there were so many girls, we had to have two MIA cl***es and all but two of those many girls were ever friendly. As I said, these mean girls came from wealthy homes, I wasn't so fortunate. NO ONE, and this goes for all religions have the right to look down their noses at those who are less fortunate. It is also unfortunate that leaders such as this Branch President had no clue as to how to have comp***ion for anyone. The higher ups within your church need to look at the whole man, not just his church record. The whole at***ude of a Ward or Branch can be affected by someone's bad at***ude or lack of any personality that would be welcoming and they sure wouldn't be much of an example for someone outside of Mormonism would they? Oh, but since I was a Mormon girl, didn't know anything about other religions, how was I to compare? All I knew was Mormonism and Mormons and being treated like a second cl*** citizen. Since your not a girl, and probably never mistreated by other members, don't you think you are biased? Sorry that you don't understand how being mistreated by people who should have been kind and showing that the faith they believed in was more important then anything, and their church always taught it was the ONLY TRUE CHURCH, they should have acted much better then any other religion. That is what I experienced and what I base my complaints on. Don't call your church the ONLY TRUE CHURCH and then not live it. If you say you have the truth, then again, live like you do and show others that your life is one that would be pleasing to God.

[James Banta]

Yeah I've always found that funny.
I have told them many a time that I would love to attend the Ward they said they belonged to, where all they ever talk about in Sunday School is becoming God, worshiping Joseph Smith, planning blood Atonements, and fantasize all day about eternal group sex.

I'm being serious! I would love to attend such a Ward, ours is boring, all we talk about is Christ and perfecting ourselves through repentance, forgiveness and good works...... Boring.

Not once have I seen a post that spoke to mormonism as teaching eternal group sex.. It is true however that there are times when there is group worship of Joseph Smith teaching through their singing that he mingles with Gods, and plans for his brethren. That isn't done every week but it is done fairly often.. Blood atonement is a doctrine that like Adam God the LDS church would like to put behind them. I don't believe I ever heard it even mentioned. Still by your own admission you are taught that it is your responsibility to perfect yourself. WAY even your own scripture make it clear that such a *** is not yours but God's .

Moses 1:39
For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to p*** the immortality and eternal life of man.


It looks like even in your own Ward you are being taught error even by LDS standards.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Blood atonement is a doctrine that like Adam God the LDS church would like to put behind them. .....


I remember Walter Martin talked a bit on the topic of the Mormon teachings dealing with "Adam God"

Do you have anything on this?...perhaps we should start a topic on it so as to not sidetrack

[Snow Patrol]

Snow, I never accused your church of teaching members to behave badly, they teach that members should live a Christ-like life. I have nothing against your church teaching those ideas, but what I do find objectionable is how many members I've known over the years who have failed to even try to live a Christ-like life. Why so many? I was raised in a Ward where there were so many girls, we had to have two MIA cl***es and all but two of those many girls were ever friendly. As I said, these mean girls came from wealthy homes, I wasn't so fortunate. NO ONE, and this goes for all religions have the right to look down their noses at those who are less fortunate. It is also unfortunate that leaders such as this Branch President had no clue as to how to have comp***ion for anyone. The higher ups within your church need to look at the whole man, not just his church record. The whole at***ude of a Ward or Branch can be affected by someone's bad at***ude or lack of any personality that would be welcoming and they sure wouldn't be much of an example for someone outside of Mormonism would they? Oh, but since I was a Mormon girl, didn't know anything about other religions, how was I to compare? All I knew was Mormonism and Mormons and being treated like a second cl*** citizen. Since your not a girl, and probably never mistreated by other members, don't you think you are biased? Sorry that you don't understand how being mistreated by people who should have been kind and showing that the faith they believed in was more important then anything, and their church always taught it was the ONLY TRUE CHURCH, they should have acted much better then any other religion. That is what I experienced and what I base my complaints on. Don't call your church the ONLY TRUE CHURCH and then not live it. If you say you have the truth, then again, live like you do and show others that your life is one that would be pleasing to God.

I don't think you are implying that churches are only for perfect people who never fail to completely live up to its teaches. Church is there for imperfect people who are trying to do better.

Even though I'm a male, I was never really "bullied" by others in the church. I was "bullied" by kids that went to the local Christian Church. Do I then say that those kids were not trying to be good Christians? No. I have no idea what they really believed, but I do know that they were immature teenagers who liked to ridicule someone who believed differently than they did.

"If you say you have the truth, then again, live like you do and show others that your life is one that would be pleasing to God. "

Don't be offended, but couldn't I say this about you? If you have placed your trust in Christ and turned your life over to Him, why do you still harbor such animosity to these people in your past? I truly don't have ill feelings about those Christians who beat me up, stole stuff from me, and made my life hell to the point that I had to get special permission to leave school during lunch so I didn't have to deal with them. I have mentioned this one time in 30 years and that is right now. The only reason I do is an example. I'm not angry about it.

[RealFakeHair]

I remember Walter Martin talked a bit on the topic of the Mormon teachings dealing with "Adam God"

Do you have anything on this?...perhaps we should start a topic on it so as to not sidetrack

Adam is our god and the only god we have to do with. I wonder who it was that said this?

[Snow Patrol]

Not once have I seen a post that spoke to mormonism as teaching eternal group sex.. It is true however that there are times when there is group worship of Joseph Smith teaching through their singing that he mingles with Gods, and plans for his brethren. That isn't done every week but it is done fairly often.. Blood atonement is a doctrine that like Adam God the LDS church would like to put behind them. I don't believe I ever heard it even mentioned. Still by your own admission you are taught that it is your responsibility to perfect yourself. WAY even your own scripture make it clear that such a *** is not yours but God's .

Moses 1:39
For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to p*** the immortality and eternal life of man.


It looks like even in your own Ward you are being taught error even by LDS standards.. IHS jim

So James, do we just sit and do nothing. We have no responsibility for our lives?

[neverending]

I don't think you are implying that churches are only for perfect people who never fail to completely live up to its teaches. Church is there for imperfect people who are trying to do better.

Even though I'm a male, I was never really "bullied" by others in the church. I was "bullied" by kids that went to the local Christian Church. Do I then say that those kids were not trying to be good Christians? No. I have no idea what they really believed, but I do know that they were immature teenagers who liked to ridicule someone who believed differently than they did.

"If you say you have the truth, then again, live like you do and show others that your life is one that would be pleasing to God. "

Don't be offended, but couldn't I say this about you? If you have placed your trust in Christ and turned your life over to Him, why do you still harbor such animosity to these people in your past? I truly don't have ill feelings about those Christians who beat me up, stole stuff from me, and made my life hell to the point that I had to get special permission to leave school during lunch so I didn't have to deal with them. I have mentioned this one time in 30 years and that is right now. The only reason I do is an example. I'm not angry about it.

Then I say, you are a far better person than I am. The scars go to deep for me and God will have to deal with my unforgiving ways but, I DO expect MORE from people who claim that their church is the ONLY TRUE CHURCH. As for the church I and James attend, we have never claimed we are the ONLY TRUE CHURCH and never claimed extra-Biblical revelations. We are taught only what is within the pages of God's Word. I am the least of anyone.
As for how you were treated as a young man, I am very sorry for those boys should have known better and must not have had very good parents. My James was treated badly by boys in his Ward as well, he would never mention it but it was all due to the fact that his mother was not an active member and his stepfather wasn't a member at all, and his parents smoked. If you know people who smoke, the smell is on their clothing and everywhere in their home. Boys thought James smoked, I know he never did since we met when I was only 14, began dating our junior year in High School and married a year after graduation. We've known each other for 47 years, and come September our 43rd wedding anniversary will arrive. I wish I could be more like you and forget the past but it is not my nature to be that way and yes, that's wrong but it sometimes makes me cry when I think about the very people who should have cared, should have been there to help me but I was invisible to them. Enough said on this subject but do know that what I have told you is true and I wish things could have been different.

[Snow Patrol]

Then I say, you are a far better person than I am. The scars go to deep for me and God will have to deal with my unforgiving ways but, I DO expect MORE from people who claim that their church is the ONLY TRUE CHURCH. As for the church I and James attend, we have never claimed we are the ONLY TRUE CHURCH and never claimed extra-Biblical revelations. We are taught only what is within the pages of God's Word. I am the least of anyone.

I understand you don't claim your particular church building is the one true church, but you do claim to be saved, right? You claim to be part of the body of Christ. What is the difference?



As for how you were treated as a young man, I am very sorry for those boys should have known better and must not have had very good parents. My James was treated badly by boys in his Ward as well, he would never mention it but it was all due to the fact that his mother was not an active member and his stepfather wasn't a member at all, and his parents smoked. If you know people who smoke, the smell is on their clothing and everywhere in their home. Boys thought James smoked, I know he never did since we met when I was only 14, began dating our junior year in High School and married a year after graduation. We've known each other for 47 years, and come September our 43rd wedding anniversary will arrive. I wish I could be more like you and forget the past but it is not my nature to be that way and yes, that's wrong but it sometimes makes me cry when I think about the very people who should have cared, should have been there to help me but I was invisible to them. Enough said on this subject but do know that what I have told you is true and I wish things could have been different.

And I feel the same. I know you guys don't believe that I believe in Christ and His atonement, but I can tell you there is no possible way to have forgiven them if it wasn't for my faith in Christ. It could have impacted my life forever, but I couldn't let it. I had to get rid of that burden and it was only through Christ that I did. I encourage you to take your burden to Christ as well. I'm sure He doesn't want you carrying that with you forever. He can overcome it for you.

[alanmolstad]

T....will have to deal with my unforgiving ways ......

a lot of people get mixed-up on the Christian concept of "forgiveness"

It's always seen in a bad light by the people that have been truly hurt by others.
When a Catholic priest is found guilty as an abuser they always ask the kid who had been attacked later "Do you forgive ?"

The pressure is on the kid to say "yes" ...yet the huge hurt they feel and will always seem to be at war within their heart.
It's as if saying, "yes" would be like saying that what happened to them was "Not so bad"

Well.....here is what I was taught back in Bible school-
When we forgive,we are NOT saying that we want the other person to go free!
When we forgive we are not telling the world that the guilty person was not guilty.
When we forgive we are not saying that we are going to try to "forget" about what happened.

So what do we do when we forgive?
that was a question a bible teacher asked my cl*** to answer.

We were told a story in cl***.
In the story we are told that someone does something mean to us, and we suffer in some way due to the actions of another against us.
Now later the person that harmed us , comes over to us and says they are sorry and asks us to forgive them?
We turn to the person that offended us and tell them, "Yes I forgive you"

[SIZE=4]QUESTION - What did you just do?

When you forgive a person, what actually do you do?


If I remember my answer to the teacher's question, it went something like this.

When I forgive you, I give up my right to be angry with you.


I still hold you guilty, Im likely still very angry, and I still reserve the right to seek justice when and where I can seek it.
But I have given up the endless-labor of needing to drag around my anger with me all the time....of feeling I "have" to remain angry...

[alanmolstad]

One would think that with the internet and the accessibility of documentation that you could easily show talks, scriptures, etc that show that we believe people should be treated this way.




.

In going over a video on another topic there was a section I noted in the video that deals with the topic you point to in your comment here.

The idea you are talking about is that in this age where its easy to get on a computer and learn things, could the Mormon church still attempt to hide things that actually are out there already in the records?

I think the answer is, "Yes the Mormon church still does hide things that are yet verifiable"

I think the answer is "yes" because the Mormon church does not really have to hide the truth from Christians....It only has to hide the truth from it's own members.

This is why in the video the guy talks about the death of Smith, and how on the one hand a lot of things about the death are known and are right there in the records of the Mormon church, AND YET....on the other hand the story that is taught to other Mormon students about the death of Smith does not match the known facts.

So this means that the Mormon church is not really attempting to hide the truth from me....(because it knows it cant given the fact that the record of Smith's death is known.)
But The Mormon church is very busy hiding the truth from its own members, knowing that telling a false/slanted story that is widely believed will work just as good at covering up the truth.

If you tell a story that is false to everyone in the church, no one in the church will question it due to the "lock-step" nature of members of a cult.....



Thus it falls to Christians to point out truths that the Mormon church does not want it's members to know.
check out the video at 9:42 and the story of the BYU students at the jail tour.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvSo0ate4tM



So once again , when I go back to your question, and the subject you guys were talking about and the chance that Mormons in general have sorta a mannerism about them and the way they treat some others?....based on what i have learned from this video i would say that the answer is, "oh yes, it would be an easy thing to see true."

It's kinda a weird thing how Mormons can , totally without thinking about it, conform their thinking to the whims of their church leadership...regardless of what they know to be the truth....all in the effort at "spin" control.

The spin of keeping the best face on Smith's death.
The spin at putting the best face on the sex Smith had with married young girls.
The spin of being a member of a "united church" compared to the disunity of the Christians.

[Snow Patrol]

"The spin of keeping the best face on Smith's death."

My question is, what does it really matter? Does it change doctrine?


" The spin at putting the best face on the sex Smith had with married young girls."

Again, what does it really matter? Does it change doctrine?

" The spin of being a member of a "united church" compared to the disunity of the Christians"

Isn't that what a church is supposed to do, make sure that it is teach unified doctrine? You don't want the youth leader teaching something opposite to what the Pastor is teaching, right?

[alanmolstad]

"The spin of keeping the best face on Smith's death."

My question is, what does it really matter? Does it change doctrine?


well in that specific case, the false story of Smith's behavior kinda actually becomes the doctrine....

it feeds the myth.
it maintains the spin.

If you tell a big fat false story long enough it has been shown to be clear that the "lock-step" nature of the members of a cult will not even dream of questioning it...

in fact after a while I believe that what the leadership of the Mormons are really seeking is that when a christian (such as myself) points out the false story to the Mormon, the knee-**** reaction of the Mormon is, "So? Whats the big deal about that?

this ability to put aside a person's normal ability to think for themselves and see truth is replaced with the need to maintain the "spin control" that always ends with their church looking better....

[alanmolstad]

"You don't want the youth leader teaching something opposite to what the Pastor is teaching, right?I want the youth teacher teaching the truth...regardless of what the preacher is teaching....

But this need to "maintain the cover story" sneaks down and gets in the way of Bible students learning the truth.
this is how Cults maintain their members...they slant the truth and then teach that even questioning the slanted truth is wrong.
this is how we end up with Cults that teach, (Of all things get this) that it is wrong to question the leadership of the Cult.

Once you make questioning the leadership a sin, you guarantee that the leadership will go off the rails....Jim Jones style.

This is how Smith was able to take the wives of other men to his bed.
You get people so mixed up that they forget how to defend themselves from theological abusive teachers...

Once you got grown men handing over their wives to their religious leaders you got yourself believers who no longer know truth from lie....they have lost their ability to think for themselves...


this is why we see men in the pulpit saying that its ok to sleep with other men's wives, and you have down in the basement school teachers teaching their students that "Sure, it's God's will, look at David"



I on the other hand , value truth over uniformity....

[alanmolstad]

You don't want the youth leader teaching something opposite to what the Pastor is teaching, right?
I know you dont see it as such.....(and that's too bad)

But when I look at your statement all I see is the terrible results that the Mormon teachers have had on you and other Mormons....

It's simply a wrong way to look at your faith walk......

It's 180' degrees wrong...

[Snow Patrol]

I know you dont see it as such.....(and that's too bad)

But when I look at your statement all I see is the terrible results that the Mormon teachers have had on you and other Mormons....

It's simply a wrong way to look at your faith walk......

It's 180' degrees wrong...

So, do YOU want the youth leader teaching something different than the Pastor?

[alanmolstad]

So, do YOU want the youth leader teaching something different than the Pastor?some where in my answer I think I answered this....

I dont give a rat's **** what the pastor is teaching if it's in error.

I find ZERO MERIT in a church that pats itself on the back for being "100% united" if what they are teaching is against what the bible teaches...

Bible Students rely on we who are older in the faith to p*** on truth....we do them no service if we p*** on what we know is wrong or slanted just because it's in agreement with what the pastor says and we only want to maintain the "spin control" that our church is always united ...


I dont know if you notice this about me yet, but I am not afraid to criticize errors and where people teach counter to the word of god, no matter the fact that on most issues the same person and i always agree.

Error is error, and you dont do any student a favor by pretending that being united is better than being right.

[alanmolstad]

Unless you are free in your own mind to stand up for what you see clearly taught in the bible, you are "dead"

Your faith is dead.

Your salvation is dead.

your whole religion is dead.

But if you are able to stand up for yourself, confront errors, and just get up and walk out when you see people going off the rails with their crazy need at spin control, then you make your faith "Alive!"

Your salvation story becomes a living story.

your religion becomes alive, and personal....between you and your Lord.(as it was always meant to be by the way)

[alanmolstad]

Unless you are free in your own mind to stand up for what you see clearly taught in the bible, you are "dead"

Your faith is dead.

Your salvation is dead.

your whole religion is dead.

But if you are able to stand up for yourself, confront errors, and just get up and walk out when you see people going off the rails with their crazy need at spin control, then you make your faith "Alive!"

Your salvation story becomes a living story.

your religion becomes alive, and personal....between you and your Lord.(as it was always meant to be by the way)

Look, here is the deal...
Lets say you are the member of a big church with a strong leadership.
then one day, after some long nights of study, you come to the conclusion that your church leadership is wrong...
And not just a little wrong, but really , really wrong.

How will your church's leadership ever turn around?

Whose *** is it to correct the leadership?

the truth is that it's ours....
They will never correct themselves.

[Snow Patrol]

some where in my answer I think I answered this....

I dont give a rat's **** what the pastor is teaching if it's in error.

I find ZERO MERIT in a church that pats itself on the back for being "100% united" if what they are teaching is against what the bible teaches...

Ok, so the united on the essentials means nothing to you?

I'd like you to point me to the church that teaches 100% truth from the Bible. Now, you have to be careful, because there may be others that will say they teach 100% truth but the doctrines may be different.

[alanmolstad]

Ok, so the united on the essentials means nothing to you?

.

You keep asking the same question in different ways....I feel like I am supposed to answer the same question in different ways too?

Is there a "heart of the matter" that you want to get to?

[alanmolstad]

tell you what....I have asked a general question above that i kinda skipped over...But Im going to ask you to personally answer it...

one moment...

[alanmolstad]

Question for Snow Patrol-( and Erundur too, I see you are watching the conversation)


Lets say you are the member of a big church with a strong leadership.
then one day, after some long nights of study, you come to the conclusion that your church leadership is wrong...
And not just a little wrong, but really , really wrong.

Whose *** is it to correct the leadership?

[Snow Patrol]

Question for Snow Patrol-( and Erundur too, I see you are watching the conversation)


Lets say you are the member of a big church with a strong leadership.
then one day, after some long nights of study, you come to the conclusion that your church leadership is wrong...
And not just a little wrong, but really , really wrong.

Whose *** is it to correct the leadership?


Well, there are too many possible answers. ;)

Whose to say I'm right?

Whose to say I have the right to try and correct the leadership?

Why does it matter if I correct the leadership. In modern Christianity, I could just start my own church.

But, to answer your question, I would say that it would be me, but I wouldn't take it on alone. I'd consult with others first to determine if they agreed with me or not.

[alanmolstad]

But, to answer your question, I would say that it would be me,.

Although you seem to need to layer your answer underneath a pile of "buts"....You yet, surprisingly have given me the correct answer.

Don't let Anyone tell you different!

[Phoenix]

Question for Snow Patrol-( and Erundur too, I see you are watching the conversation)
Lets say you are the member of a big church with a strong leadership.
then one day, after some long nights of study, you come to the conclusion that your church leadership is wrong...
And not just a little wrong, but really , really wrong.

Whose *** is it to correct the leadership?

..............
God's?

[alanmolstad]

..............
God's?
a bit uncertain?

Is that the answer you want to hold at?

This is not a race...in many ways the question is mostly just a way to help the person see what relationship they have with the truth.....Do they search for it?...do they ask others for it?...do they simply react to whatever some person tells them the truth is this week?

Yes, clearly I agree with Snow patrol on his reasoning...
I think that in the end, it's up to us ....

"We" are the ones that have to remain vigilant.




the problem with this answer?....It points out that we simply cant shrug-off the blame when the leadership of our church fall into error.
We cant just say, "Well, what can a guy do?" and think thats the end of it.

When you come to the conclusion that you are required to always stand up for the truth you cant then hide behind mom's skirt like a little child and hope the "problem" goes away on it's own."Perhaps God will fix it?"..."Perhaps God will send some type of important guy to set things right?", etc,etc,etc

Sometimes , when if you truly see that the leadership of your church has gone off the deep end, you got to stand up....and as Ronald Reagan always suggested "To vote with your feet"

Stand up, turn , and walk out.




if the truth is important to you, if it's the thing you hold most dear, then the topic of "church unity" becomes a moot point.
You will start to see "What does it matter if a church is united if its united in error?"

"We" are the guardians of truth.
"We" preserve the right to seek truth no matter who would take that right away from us.
"We" are the answer...

And don't let anyone tell you different!

[James Banta]

So James, do we just sit and do nothing. We have no responsibility for our lives?

It would seem that the Apostle Paul and the Apostle James both show the believer their duty in their Christian walk.. Paul says:

Eph 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


And James

James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Both Paul and James call the Christian into service.. Not to gain salvation we both know that we are neither saved by faith or works but by His Grace.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

So James, do we just sit and do nothing. We have no responsibility for our lives?

If we are children of God in Jesus, then like Him we are to be about our Father's business.. So like Paul taught we need to do Good works that He has before established that we should walk in (Eph 2:10), and what James taught That we don't show preference for the rich, and that we feed the hungry, cloth the naked and help the widow and the orphan.. But we must remember these works show our faith. It is faith wherein the grace God is accessed unto salvation.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

a bit uncertain?

Is that the answer you want to hold at?



You still holding on that answer?

[Christian]

I have been seeing a few times on here lately how a critic of the LDS faith will post an experience or two with LDS and seem to imply that all LDS are like that. I have also personally talked to others critical of the church and found that they too present an experience or two as representative of the LDS as a whole. I wonder, is this normal for all Christians or is it just the critics of the LDS faith?

Also, would it be proper to portray this sentiment in reverse? Should I extrapolate that all Christians are mean, or rude, or insincere because I've personally experienced that from my dealings with a few Christians?

I seem to remember a p***age in Matthew that says "by the mouths of two or three witnesses. . ."

Is it mean, rude, or insincere to point out the false beliefs of others who seem to believe as their religion teaches?

Or is it mean, rude, or insincere to point out the false doctrines of false religions?

I don't think so. . .

in Jesus,
fish