Can you stomach the blasphemy?

[John T]

The thread which Yak on CARM began. called "Hymns" got me thinking about something I had wanted to do for a long time: take the LDS hymnal and look for songs about Joseph Smith. I found seven hymns under the topical index HERE (https://www.lds.org/music/index/hymns/topic?lang=eng). What I did not expect to find is that IN THEIR HYMNS the LDS people actually exalt him into a god, and in some cases supplant the glory of Jesus Christ.

Here are all the ***les, and the lyrics to some. I could not stand the inherent blasphemy, so there are are only a few songs with their lyrics, and those lyrics are properly accredited.

I placed the parts which they have Jesus gaining greater glory and authority in bold red. I also did the same to the lyrics which parody Christian hymns about Jesus Christ. See if you agree with what I am saying about blasphemy. I placed the song ***les in bold green to avoid confusion

Truth Eternal
1. Truth eternal, truth divine,
In thine ancient fulness shine!
Burst the fetters of the mind
From the millions of mankind!

2. Truth again restored to earth,
Opened with a prophet's birth.
Priests of heaven's royal line
Bear the keys of truth divine!

3. Truth shall triumph as the light
Chases far the misty night.
Endless ages own its sway,
Clad in everlasting day.

Text: Parley P. Pratt, 1807-1857 Music: Alexander Schreiner, 1901-1987Truth Eternal (#4)


Come, Listen to a Prophet's Voice (#21)



Come, Sing to the Lord (#10)

1 Come, sing to the Lord, his name to praise.
He in these latter days did raise
A prophet to his name,

2. The blessed gospel to restore.
Come, sing to the Lord, his name adore!
The prophets of old beheld this day,
Its glory told in wondrous lay.

3. T hey saw our prophet dear,
Who times of fulness ushered in.
Come, sing to the Lord, his praises ring!


4. The keys of the priesthood of our Lord
To us in fulness are restored,
Their blessings to bestow,
And pow'rs divine are manifest.

Come, sing to the Lord, his name be blessed!
Text and music: Gerrit de Jong Jr., 1892-1978


Joseph Smith's First Prayer (#26)

Oh, how lovely was the morning! Radiant beamed the sun above.
Bees were humming, sweet birds singing,
Music ringing thru the grove,

When within the shady woodland
Joseph sought the God of love,
When within the shady woodland
Joseph sought the God of love.






Humbly kneeling, sweet appealing--


'Twas the boy's first uttered prayer--

When the pow'rs of sin ***ailing
Filled his soul with deep despair;
But undaunted, still he trusted
In his Heav'nly Father's care;
But undaunted, still he trusted
In his Heav'nly Father's care.






Suddenly a light descended,


Brighter far than noonday sun,
And a shining, glorious pillar
O'er him fell, around him shone,
While appeared two heav'nly beings,
God the Father and the Son,
While appeared two heav'nly beings,
God the Father and the Son.






"Joseph, this is my Beloved;



Hear him!" Oh, how sweet the word!
Joseph's humble prayer was answered,
And he listened to the Lord.
Oh, what rapture filled his bosom,

For he saw the living God;
Oh, what rapture filled his bosom,
For he saw the living God.
Text: George Manwaring, 1854-1889 Music: Sylv**** Billings Pond, 1792-1871; adapted by A. C. Smyth, 1840-1909

Now We'll Sing with One Accord (#25)





Now we'll sing with one accord,


For a prophet of the Lord,
Bringing forth his precious word,
Cheers the Saints as anciently.
When the world in darkness lay,
Lo! he sought the better way,
And he heard the Savior say,
"Go and prune my vineyard, son!"




And an angel surely then,


For a blessing unto men,
Brought the priesthood back again
In its ancient purity.
Even Joseph he inspired;
Yea, his heart he truly fired
With the light that he desired
For the work of righteousness.

3. And the Book of Mormon true,


With its cov'nant ever new,
For the Gentile and the Jew,
He translated sacredly.
God's commandments to mankind,
For believing Saints designed,
And to bless the seeking mind,
Came to him from Jesus Christ.






Precious are the years to come,


While the righteous gather home
For the great millennium,
When they'll rest in blessedness.
Prudent in this world of woes,
They will triumph o'er their foes,
While the realm of Zion grows
Purer for eternity.
Text: William W. Phelps, 1792-1872. Included in the first LDS hymnbook, 1835.
Music: Joseph J. Daynes, 1851-1920


Praise to the Man (#27)



We Thank Thee, O God, for a Prophet (#19)

So the issue before us is "Do these words exalt Joseph over Jesus?"

How many Christian hymns are similar to this as they are about John Wesley, or Luther, or Calvin or Menno Simons, or... etc? ZERO The ONLY being they exalt is Jesus Christ. Nah, they are not a cult! http://forums.carm.org/vbb/images/smilies/rolleyes.png

[Erundur]

IN THEIR HYMNS the LDS people actually exalt him into a god, and in some cases supplant the glory of Jesus Christ.
This is false.


See if you agree with what I am saying about blasphemy.
I do not. There is no blasphemy in those lyrics.

[alanmolstad]

How many Christian hymns are similar to this ......

It does seem to go on and on building up the hype of a man that really was only in it for the money and the skirts....

[John T]

This is false.
I do not. There is no blasphemy in those lyrics.

You are en***led to your opinion, but you are not basing your opinion on FACTS. The words in bold red say what they say, and they are unalterable.
Of course, your inability to see the blasphemy for what it is, could be a manifestation of spiritual blindness caused by being in the Mormon cult.

[James Banta]

This is false.


I do not. There is no blasphemy in those lyrics.

These lyrics, that you find to be so proper, exalt a mere man without a word of praise to the Lord of Glory.. No man should be so celebrated. Not John, not Isaiah, not even Moses, much less a man that is called a prophet because he wrote a book.. IHS jim

[Apologette]

The thread which Yak on CARM began. called "Hymns" got me thinking about something I had wanted to do for a long time: take the LDS hymnal and look for songs about Joseph Smith. I found seven hymns under the topical index HERE (https://www.lds.org/music/index/hymns/topic?lang=eng). What I did not expect to find is that IN THEIR HYMNS the LDS people actually exalt him into a god, and in some cases supplant the glory of Jesus Christ.

Here are all the ***les, and the lyrics to some. I could not stand the inherent blasphemy, so there are are only a few songs with their lyrics, and those lyrics are properly accredited.

I placed the parts which they have Jesus gaining greater glory and authority in bold red. I also did the same to the lyrics which parody Christian hymns about Jesus Christ. See if you agree with what I am saying about blasphemy. I placed the song ***les in bold green to avoid confusion

Truth Eternal
1. Truth eternal, truth divine,
In thine ancient fulness shine!
Burst the fetters of the mind
From the millions of mankind!

2. Truth again restored to earth,
Opened with a prophet's birth.
Priests of heaven's royal line
Bear the keys of truth divine!

3. Truth shall triumph as the light
Chases far the misty night.
Endless ages own its sway,
Clad in everlasting day.

Text: Parley P. Pratt, 1807-1857 Music: Alexander Schreiner, 1901-1987Truth Eternal (#4)


Come, Listen to a Prophet's Voice (#21)



Come, Sing to the Lord (#10)

1 Come, sing to the Lord, his name to praise.
He in these latter days did raise
A prophet to his name,

2. The blessed gospel to restore.
Come, sing to the Lord, his name adore!
The prophets of old beheld this day,
Its glory told in wondrous lay.

3. T hey saw our prophet dear,
Who times of fulness ushered in.
Come, sing to the Lord, his praises ring!


4. The keys of the priesthood of our Lord
To us in fulness are restored,
Their blessings to bestow,
And pow'rs divine are manifest.

Come, sing to the Lord, his name be blessed!
Text and music: Gerrit de Jong Jr., 1892-1978


Joseph Smith's First Prayer (#26)

Oh, how lovely was the morning! Radiant beamed the sun above.
Bees were humming, sweet birds singing,
Music ringing thru the grove,

When within the shady woodland
Joseph sought the God of love,
When within the shady woodland
Joseph sought the God of love.






Humbly kneeling, sweet appealing--


'Twas the boy's first uttered prayer--

When the pow'rs of sin ***ailing
Filled his soul with deep despair;
But undaunted, still he trusted
In his Heav'nly Father's care;
But undaunted, still he trusted
In his Heav'nly Father's care.






Suddenly a light descended,


Brighter far than noonday sun,
And a shining, glorious pillar
O'er him fell, around him shone,
While appeared two heav'nly beings,
God the Father and the Son,
While appeared two heav'nly beings,
God the Father and the Son.






"Joseph, this is my Beloved;



Hear him!" Oh, how sweet the word!
Joseph's humble prayer was answered,
And he listened to the Lord.
Oh, what rapture filled his bosom,

For he saw the living God;
Oh, what rapture filled his bosom,
For he saw the living God.
Text: George Manwaring, 1854-1889 Music: Sylv**** Billings Pond, 1792-1871; adapted by A. C. Smyth, 1840-1909

Now We'll Sing with One Accord (#25)





Now we'll sing with one accord,


For a prophet of the Lord,
Bringing forth his precious word,
Cheers the Saints as anciently.
When the world in darkness lay,
Lo! he sought the better way,
And he heard the Savior say,
"Go and prune my vineyard, son!"




And an angel surely then,


For a blessing unto men,
Brought the priesthood back again
In its ancient purity.
Even Joseph he inspired;
Yea, his heart he truly fired
With the light that he desired
For the work of righteousness.

3. And the Book of Mormon true,


With its cov'nant ever new,
For the Gentile and the Jew,
He translated sacredly.
God's commandments to mankind,
For believing Saints designed,
And to bless the seeking mind,
Came to him from Jesus Christ.






Precious are the years to come,


While the righteous gather home
For the great millennium,
When they'll rest in blessedness.
Prudent in this world of woes,
They will triumph o'er their foes,
While the realm of Zion grows
Purer for eternity.
Text: William W. Phelps, 1792-1872. Included in the first LDS hymnbook, 1835.
Music: Joseph J. Daynes, 1851-1920


Praise to the Man (#27)



We Thank Thee, O God, for a Prophet (#19)

So the issue before us is "Do these words exalt Joseph over Jesus?"

How many Christian hymns are similar to this as they are about John Wesley, or Luther, or Calvin or Menno Simons, or... etc? ZERO The ONLY being they exalt is Jesus Christ. Nah, they are not a cult! http://forums.carm.org/vbb/images/smilies/rolleyes.png
This type of blasphemy is typical of Mormonism - after all, in the long run, Joseph Smith is the real god of this group.

[Erundur]

You are en***led to your opinion, but you are not basing your opinion on FACTS.
False. My opinion is based on 1) the definition of the word "blasphemy", and 2) the lyrics you posted.


The words in bold red say what they say, and they are unalterable.
Yes they do, but what they say is not blasphemy.


Of course, your inability to see the blasphemy for what it is, could be a manifestation of spiritual blindness caused by being in the Mormon cult.
I'm sorry you feel the need to lash out at me when you are unable to back up your claim.

[Erundur]

These lyrics, that you find to be so proper, exalt a mere man without a word of praise to the Lord of Glory..
No they don't. You're going to have to be more specific.

[James Banta]

No they don't. You're going to have to be more specific.

Ok, the Doxology is all about praise to God..

Praise God, from Whom all blessings flow;
Praise Him, all creatures here below;
Praise Him above, ye heav’nly host;
Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Then we have that which Mormonism praises:

Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah!
Jesus anointed that Prophet and Seer.
Blessed to open the last dispensation,
Kings shall extol him, and nations revere.

(Chorus)
Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;
Death cannot conquer the hero again.

You still can't see it? There is a huge difference.. The Doxology praises God, the LDS Hymn praises a man.. A blind man could see this.. Why is it that you are even more blind than they? IHS jim

[Erundur]

Ok, the Doxology is all about praise to God..
Yes, that's hymn #242, but it wasn't mentioned in the OP.


You still can't see it?
No. Show me where the hymn "exalt[s] Joseph over Jesus."


A blind man could see this.. Why is it that you are even more blind than they?
It only appears that way because you've been brainwashed into the twisted cult of anti-Mormonism.

[James Banta]

[Erundur;154313]Yes, that's hymn #242, but it wasn't mentioned in the OP.

You should have read the entire post.. Near the bottom Praise to the Man is clearly referenced..


No. Show me where the hymn "exalt[s] Joseph over Jesus."

The hymn makes Smith equal with "Gods" and puts Smith in the position of planning the path the church should follow:

"Mingling with God He can plan for his brethren"


It only appears that way because you've been brainwashed into the twisted cult of anti-Mormonism.

You can't see it because you have convinced yourself that mormonism is God's one true church.. I have had my time praying about the truth of Mormonism.. I received nothing as an answer to that question.. I lived off the testimonies of others. Finally I started asking the right questions, like "God are you really there?" Being against lies and error is the duty of all Christians.. You call that Anti-Mormon.. I call it Pro God, pro trust in His message to us. Like the words of the Doxology I Praise Him, I lift no man to anything higher then they deserve.. I see all men as sinners. Some willing to come to Jesus to allow God to deal with their sin, others that insist on trying to deal with their sin themselves.. Too bad it's like a garbage truck trying to be clean by dumping it's load of trash. IHS jim

[Erundur]

You should have read the entire post.. Near the bottom Praise to the Man is clearly referenced..
Yes, that's hymn #27.


The hymn makes Smith equal with "Gods"
No it doesn't. Mingling with someone doesn't make you equal to them. And even if it did, it doesn't exalt you above them, so the OP is still false.


and puts Smith in the position of planning the path the church should follow:
No it doesn't. Now you're just making stuff up.


You can't see it because you have convinced yourself that mormonism is God's one true church.. I have had my time praying about the truth of Mormonism.. I received nothing as an answer to that question.. I lived off the testimonies of others. Finally I started asking the right questions, like "God are you really there?" Being against lies and error is the duty of all Christians.. You call that Anti-Mormon.. I call it Pro God, pro trust in His message to us. Like the words of the Doxology I Praise Him, I lift no man to anything higher then they deserve.. I see all men as sinners. Some willing to come to Jesus to allow God to deal with their sin, others that insist on trying to deal with their sin themselves.. Too bad it's like a garbage truck trying to be clean by dumping it's load of trash. IHS jim
Worthless anti-Mormon rhetoric.

[John T]

No it doesn't. Mingling with someone doesn't make you equal to them. And even if it did, it doesn't exalt you above them, so the OP is still false.

Do you re-read what you post?
That statement above has to be one of the most stupid things I have ever read by a LDS attempting to defend Joe.

Words mean what they say, and in the words I posted in bold red, there are clear references to the deification of joe, in your hymnal. So keep on denying the truth, and attempting to play "Jabberwocky", but that does NOT alter what is printed in your hymnal.

My guess is that you are so embarr***ed by the revealing of the truth that you are attempting to play imbecilic mormo-games that only a person with an elementary school education would swallow.

The cat is out of the bag, and you cannot get her back into it. Deal with it, and deal with truth for once. Oh, yes. Before I forget, you really need to know that dismissively calling something "anti mormon" because you do not like what it says, has as much effect on the reader as does you saying to the poster to whom you reply, "You have cooties.".

Both comments are best left on the elementary school playground instead of being seen on a forum where adults write.

[Snow Patrol]

Do you re-read what you post?
That statement above has to be one of the most stupid things I have ever read by a LDS attempting to defend Joe.

Words mean what they say, and in the words I posted in bold red, there are clear references to the deification of joe, in your hymnal. So keep on denying the truth, and attempting to play "Jabberwocky", but that does NOT alter what is printed in your hymnal.

My guess is that you are so embarr***ed by the revealing of the truth that you are attempting to play imbecilic mormo-games that only a person with an elementary school education would swallow.

The cat is out of the bag, and you cannot get her back into it. Deal with it, and deal with truth for once. Oh, yes. Before I forget, you really need to know that dismissively calling something "anti mormon" because you do not like what it says, has as much effect on the reader as does you saying to the poster to whom you reply, "You have cooties.".

Both comments are best left on the elementary school playground instead of being seen on a forum where adults write.


Maybe it is you that needs to defend how your "bold red" parts are referrences to the deification of Joseph Smith. I re-read it again and can't figure out how you came to that conclusion.

[James Banta]

[Erundur;154318]Yes, that's hymn #27.

I am glad to see at least that level of honesty in your post..


No it doesn't. Mingling with someone doesn't make you equal to them. And even if it did, it doesn't exalt you above them, so the OP is still false.

It is a social norm that people gravitate to those that are their peers. No one from the more common level of the social-economic cl***es is permitted to attend an upper cl*** event.. God is the Highest of all cl***es and the hymn tells us that He mingles with not just God but with Gods. Then not just mingles but makes plans for the church.. When I said that you countered saying "No it doesn't. Now you're just making stuff up." but what does the Hymn teach?


Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!

Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.

Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;

Death cannot conquer the hero again.



I don't have to make stuff up to show the blasphemous doctrines of mormonism.. The LDS church announces them proudly to the world..


Worthless anti-Mormon rhetoric.

What part is worthless? Is any of it as worthless as that which the LDS church has included in their scriptures about the status of other churches and their leaders? that they are all false, that their leaders are ALL corrupt. That what is taught in the Christian church an abomination before God and is nothing but the doctrine of men.. That is in your scripture and is nothing but Worthless anti-Christian rhetoric!

Really what is so bad about it? The fact that I prayed for ***urance that the LDS church was true? Was it that I received no answer to those prayers? Was it that I used other to support my "testimony" of the church? Was it that I doubted that God was even there? Was it that I saw it the duty of believers to fight against lies? isn't that the same things that you as a member of the LDS church tries to do? Ho can that be ANTI anything but error? Does not the Doxology praise God? Does not the song I am calling into question here (Praise to the man) praise a man instead of God.. Does not the LDS church teach that we must prefect ourselves? I was right you call these things anti-mormon, that is if I am saying them. If you say such things they are the truth.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Maybe it is you that needs to defend how your "bold red" parts are referrences to the deification of Joseph Smith. I re-read it again and can't figure out how you came to that conclusion.

Seems clear to all that can read.. Even the ***le of the Hymn tells the Story "PRAISE TO THE MAN". I compared it to the Doxology "PRAISE GOD FROM WHOM ALL BLESSINGS FLOW".. Mormonism praises the MAN Joseph Smith.. The Christian Church praises only God.. And you don't see that? Astonishing! IHS jim

[Snow Patrol]

Seems clear to all that can read.. Even the ***le of the Hymn tells the Story "PRAISE TO THE MAN". I compared it to the Doxology "PRAISE GOD FROM WHOM ALL BLESSINGS FLOW".. Mormonism praises the MAN Joseph Smith.. The Christian Church praises only God.. And you don't see that? Astonishing! IHS jim

Obviously not everyone.

If I give praise to a co-worker because of something he did, does that mean I'm deifying him?

If you or JohnT went through the "bold red" parts line by line and explained how it is actually deifying him then maybe could understand where you guys are coming from.

[Erundur]

Do you re-read what you post?
That statement above has to be one of the most stupid things I have ever read by a LDS attempting to defend Joe.
You should try re-reading your OP sometime. There's more stupidity there than I could ever hope to achieve.


Words mean what they say
Yes they do, yet you refuse to recognize that fact and insist they mean something else.


and in the words I posted in bold red, there are clear references to the deification of joe, in your hymnal.
There are no references to the deification of Joseph Smith in the words you posted in bold red. If you think there are, then show them to us.


My guess is that you are so embarr***ed by the revealing of the truth that you are attempting to play imbecilic mormo-games that only a person with an elementary school education would swallow.
My guess is that you realize that you stepped in it in your OP, and are so embarr***ed by the revealing of the truth that you are attempting to play imbecilic protesto-games that even a person with only an elementary school education wouldn't swallow.

[James Banta]

Obviously not everyone.

If I give praise to a co-worker because of something he did, does that mean I'm deifying him?

If you or JohnT went through the "bold red" parts line by line and explained how it is actually deifying him then maybe could understand where you guys are coming from.

It does if you say that he is communing with Gods, and making plans for the Church.. Is that what your co-workers are doing? They tell you that they live among being that are Gods? If a man is with God and the man is praised for His works while God is not even mentioned in establishing the plans for the Church but that is left to the MAN.. If that is the case then yes you would be deifying that man.. That is what the LDS church does with Smith. he is deified by his church.. IHS jim

[Snow Patrol]

It does if you say that he is communing with Gods, and making plans for the Church.. Is that what your co-workers are doing? They tell you that they live among being that are Gods? If a man is with God and the man is praised for His works while God is not even mentioned in establishing the plans for the Church but that is left to the MAN.. If that is the case then yes you would be deifying that man.. That is what the LDS church does with Smith. he is deified by his church.. IHS jim

After you die and are living with God, will that make you a god?

This is such a stretch that it really is ridiculous.

[James Banta]

[Erundur;154327]You should try re-reading your OP sometime. There's more stupidity there than I could ever hope to achieve.

I don't think you should sell yourself short.. You are keeping up with any statement I have ever seen here..


Yes they do, yet you refuse to recognize that fact and insist they mean something else.

Again "Words have meaning" Praise to the man, means that the man is praised. This is not a hidden meaning..


There are no references to the deification of Joseph Smith in the words you posted in bold red. If you think there are, then show them to us.

God has laid all the plans for His Church.. There is nothing undone, there is nothing that has to be completed.. Saying that Smith communes with Gods and plans for his brethren shows that the LDS hold his works above those of Jesus.. They deify Him above the LORD..


My guess is that you realize that you stepped in it in your OP, and are so embarr***ed by the revealing of the truth that you are attempting to play imbecilic protesto-games that even a person with only an elementary school education wouldn't swallow.

No where in the Christian church do we hold any man up as the one who makes plans for the Church. No where do we praise a man and ignore the Lord of glory. No where do we break the commandment in holding a belief that there are more than one God. ll this is done in this hymn. This hymn is an extension of extra biblical LDS doctrines.. These are not God's truth but are instead examples of LDS perversion of the real truth.. IHS jim

[Erundur]

It is a social norm that people gravitate to those that are their peers.
Let's ***ume for a moment that this social norm applies to God, and that Joseph and Jesus are mingling because they are peers. If Joseph was exalted above Jesus, they would not be peers, and they would have no business mingling. Your own reasoning proves the OP wrong.


I don't have to make stuff up to show the blasphemous doctrines of mormonism.. The LDS church announces them proudly to the world..
Worthless anti-Mormon rhetoric.


What part is worthless?
All of it that I bothered to read.

[James Banta]

After you die and are living with God, will that make you a god?

This is such a stretch that it really is ridiculous.

I don't try to invent such things I look to God's word where we are told that Only God ever was, is, or ever will be God.. I see where we shall worship God before His throne. never is it stated that we shall share it.. IHS jim

[Erundur]

I don't think you should sell yourself short.. You are keeping up with any statement I have ever seen here..
You're being far too generous with your praise.


Again "Words have meaning" Praise to the man, means that the man is praised. This is not a hidden meaning..
Duh, but the issue here is whether Joseph is exalted above Jesus. The answer is clearly no.


Saying that Smith communes with Gods and plans for his brethren shows that the LDS hold his works above those of Jesus..
False. No LDS would agree with that.


They deify Him above the LORD..
False.

[Snow Patrol]

It does if you say that he is communing with Gods, and making plans for the Church.. Is that what your co-workers are doing? They tell you that they live among being that are Gods? If a man is with God and the man is praised for His works while God is not even mentioned in establishing the plans for the Church but that is left to the MAN.. If that is the case then yes you would be deifying that man.. That is what the LDS church does with Smith. he is deified by his church.. IHS jim

Let's bring this down to earth and frame it this way. Let's say I'm a manager over an individual. This individual has worked on a special project with the President of the company. Suppose I praise him for the work he did on this project. Am I exalting him over the President? No. I'm giving credit where credit is due but I realize that the company is still run by the CEO. I'm not placing the work this person does above the work that the President or CEO do.

[James Banta]

[Erundur;154332]Let's ***ume for a moment that this social norm applies to God, and that Joseph and Jesus are mingling because they are peers. If Joseph was exalted above Jesus, they would not be peers, and they would have no business mingling. Your own reasoning proves the OP wrong.

Worthless anti-Mormon rhetoric.

I don't see anything in the OP that shows that the LDS see Smith as superior to Jesus. I do them say that Smith, and by extension all the other dispensational ushers are peers with Jesus.. It is said that Smith will judge whether a person of this dispensation will enter the celestial kingdom or be ****ed in a lower kingdom.. The Bible teaches that God is that judge.. Mormonism teaches that God's created beings usurp the place of God often..

I agree that Smith is NOT a peer of God. Therefore Smith will never make plans for God's children, he will NOT even mingle with God. I know that this hymn is extracted from common LDS beliefs. What I am saying is those beliefs are in serious biblical error.. IHS jim

[Erundur]

I don't see anything in the OP that shows that the LDS see Smith as superior to Jesus.
Of course not, because we don't. But the OP claims that we do. That's the problem here.


It is said that Smith will judge whether a person of this dispensation will enter the celestial kingdom or be ****ed in a lower kingdom.. The Bible teaches that God is that judge..
Actually, the Bible teaches that the apostles will judge the tribes of Israel, and the saints will judge the world and angels. Are they peers of God?


Mormonism teaches that God's created beings usurp the place of God often..
False. (aka worthless anti-Mormon rhetoric)


I agree that Smith is NOT a peer of God. Therefore Smith will never make plans for God's children, he will NOT even mingle with God.
Non sequitur. But this does raise an interesting question: What's the point of being with God in heaven if you aren't allowed to ***ociate with Him?

[Snow Patrol]

I don't see anything in the OP that shows that the LDS see Smith as superior to Jesus. I do them say that Smith, and by extension all the other dispensational ushers are peers with Jesus.. It is said that Smith will judge whether a person of this dispensation will enter the celestial kingdom or be ****ed in a lower kingdom.. The Bible teaches that God is that judge.. Mormonism teaches that God's created beings usurp the place of God often..


What about Matthew 19:28?

"27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

[James Banta]

What about Matthew 19:28?

"27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

Does the p***age say that they sit in the throne of Jesus with Him or are they given their own? Does the p***age say that they determine who enters the Kingdom and who does not? There is more than one judgment.. One of the dead, one for reward. Could there be others, sure, but those two are Biblical.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

False. My opinion is based on 1) the definition of the word "blasphemy", and 2) the lyrics you posted.

Yes they do, but what they say is not blasphemy.

I'm sorry you feel the need to lash out at me when you are unable to back up your claim.

According to the Dictionary blasphemy is:

Theology . the crime of ***uming to oneself the rights or qualities of God. (Dictionary.com)


To teach that Smith was mingling with God planning for his church, the LDS church is usurping the power of God and ***igning it to Smith.. That is BLASPHEMY.. IHS jim

[Snow Patrol]

Does the p***age say that they sit in the throne of Jesus with Him or are they given their own? Does the p***age say that they determine who enters the Kingdom and who does not? There is more than one judgment.. One of the dead, one for reward. Could there be others, sure, but those two are Biblical.. IHS jim

You tell me. The Bible clearly teaches that they will have some kind of judging duties. You said that was reserved for God. You didn't leave any room for some other judges.

[James Banta]

[Erundur;154334]You're being far too generous with your praise.

You deserve it


Duh, but the issue here is whether Joseph is exalted above Jesus. The answer is clearly no.

The lyrics say that he mingles with Gods.. That is making him equal with God, not above Him.. That makes Smith a God himself that is blasphemy. Does that show that mormonism rates Smith as divine and equal in authority with Jesus, YES..


False. No LDS would agree with that.

Doesn't matter if they agree with the teachings that the church holds/held that is what the lyrics teach.. IHS jim

[Snow Patrol]

The lyrics say that he mingles with Gods.. That is making him equal with God, not above Him..


No it doesn't. How do you reach that conclusion? When Jesus mingled with sinners did that make Him a sinner or the sinners equal to God?

[James Banta]

Let's bring this down to earth and frame it this way. Let's say I'm a manager over an individual. This individual has worked on a special project with the
Theology . the crime of ***uming to oneself the rights or qualities of God.

Suppose I praise him for the work he did on this project. Am I exalting him over the President? No. I'm giving credit where credit is due but I realize that the company is still run by the CEO. I'm not placing the work this person does above the work that the President or CEO do.

Is that man a human being that has the same value as the President of the company? Yes? To praise him them makes him equal in his value to the President of the company.

While working with the CEO what he said had just as much value as what the CEO said.. Yes while they were working together they were completely equal. If the worker were to stay in that position permanently he would remain equal with the CEO on that project.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

You tell me. The Bible clearly teaches that they will have some kind of judging duties. You said that was reserved for God. You didn't leave any room for some other judges.

As long as such judgment isn't the judgment of who and who does not enter the highest heaven.. IHS jim

[Snow Patrol]

Is that man a human being that has the same value as the President of the company? Yes? To praise him them makes him equal in his value to the President of the company.

While working with the CEO what he said had just as much value as what the CEO said.. Yes while they were working together they were completely equal. If the worker were to stay in that position permanently he would remain equal with the CEO on that project.. IHS jim

Wow, that really clears things up. Have you ever worked in large companies? I've worked for a few and your view is not what is understood in today's marketplace. The individual can have input but will never have decision making authority to the same level as the President.

[Erundur]

To teach that Smith was mingling with God planning for his church, the LDS church is usurping the power of God and ***igning it to Smith.. That is BLASPHEMY..
No it isn't. Mingling does not mean usurping.

[Snow Patrol]

As long as such judgment isn't the judgment of who and who does not enter the highest heaven.. IHS jim

How do you know it doesn't? The Bible doesn't say explicitly but it sure sounds like they will be judging similar to what Christ will be doing.

[Erundur]

You deserve it
No, I don't deserve to be exalted above Jesus, and I wish you would stop doing it.


The lyrics say that he mingles with Gods.. That is making him equal with God, not above Him..
No it doesn't, but even if it did, that would disprove the OP's claim that Joseph is exalted above Jesus.


Does that show that mormonism rates Smith as divine and equal in authority with Jesus
No, it shows that YOU rate Smith as divine and equal in authority with Jesus, since you are the only one who thinks you can't mingle with someone unless you are their peer.


Doesn't matter if they agree with the teachings that the church holds/held that is what the lyrics teach..
There you have it. James says LDS believe something, and if every LDS on the planet denies it, it doesn't matter. Truth and reality don't matter to anti-Mormons.

[James Banta]

No it isn't. Mingling does not mean usurping.

Do you believe that no one of this dispensation will enter the Kingdom of God without a certificate from Joseph Smith or not? To make the judgment on who enters the Kingdom and who does not is usurping the power and authority of God.. That is a judgment reserved only to the Lord made on His terms and not on the reasoning of any man.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Wow, that really clears things up. Have you ever worked in large companies? I've worked for a few and your view is not what is understood in today's marketplace. The individual can have input but will never have decision making authority to the same level as the President.

Then this example is not the same as what is explained about the power and authority that the LDS give to Joseph Smith.. His decision is final for everyone that lived in this the last dispensation. If that wasn't so then the teaching that what the Lord's apostles bound of earth would be bound in heaven would have no merit.. What they said would have no more authority than a suggestion to the CEO you tried and failed to use in your example.. They are far from being the same thing.. Now if the CEO could indwell the employee as to direct His decision in the way the CEO would direct and then respect his decisions 100% then you would have something.. But to them that except the praise for the work that the CEO (God) did in the hearts and minds of men to bring them to Jesus to confess their sin and be given His salvation, or even say they had the ability to hold the Church together, that is blasphemy.. Smith and those that support him in the doctrines taught in that horrible song ascribing to him the right to make plans for the Church are just as guilty as Smith was in this matter.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

No it doesn't. How do you reach that conclusion? When Jesus mingled with sinners did that make Him a sinner or the sinners equal to God?

Doesn't the Bible tech us that He who know no sin became sin that we can become the righteousness of God in Him.. Sounds like that verse answers you better than I could.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

[Erundur;154350]No, I don't deserve to be exalted above Jesus, and I wish you would stop doing it.

That isn't what I said you deserved.. You said "There's more stupidity there than I could ever hope to achieve." I then praised you saying that "I don't think you should sell yourself short.. You are keeping up with any statement I have ever seen here.." I can't help it that you believed you were really being praised for doing anything but breaking the rules of the forum..


No it doesn't, but even if it did, that would disprove the OP's claim that Joseph is exalted above Jesus.

To agree with your line of discussion on this point I will say YES, IT DOES.. then say that unless you can show where the OP says that Smith was exalted above Jesus you are wrong twice..


No, it shows that YOU rate Smith as divine and equal in authority with Jesus, since you are the only one who thinks you can't mingle with someone unless you are their peer.

It is your ***ertion that different cl***es mingle together so show me where that is done and I will concede the point.. I don't see too many skid row bums attending the Opera do you?


There you have it. James says LDS believe something, and if every LDS on the planet denies it, it doesn't matter. Truth and reality don't matter to anti-Mormons.

Dang, read it again!.. I said it doesn't matter what men believe the truth of God is, it is still the truth of God.. If He gave that truth once through one of your prophets that truth would continue to be truth because that Lord God doesn't change (Mal 3:6).. But in mormonism that attribute of God has probably changed too.. Look at your temple ceremony to see the changes made there.. There is no penalty, there in no preacher. And this in an unchangeable ordinance.. IHS jim

[Erundur]

To make the judgment on who enters the Kingdom and who does not is usurping the power and authority of God.. That is a judgment reserved only to the Lord made on His terms and not on the reasoning of any man..
The Bible disagrees with you, as has been pointed out.

[James Banta]

[Erundur;154337]Of course not, because we don't. But the OP claims that we do. That's the problem here.

That should be easy to prove just quote the section of the OP that says that..


Actually, the Bible teaches that the apostles will judge the tribes of Israel, and the saints will judge the world and angels. Are they peers of God?

That p***age never says they they are p***ing judgment on Israel for salvation now does it.. isn't that done at the Great White throne where Jesus sit in the judgement of the dead? Those whose names are not recorded in the Lamb's book of life are cast into the Lake of Fire.. Only God sits on that judgment seat.. Entry into the Kingdom is a judgment for salvation or ****ation. Smith usurps God place in doing that. The Apostles nor the Saints are given such a judgment..


False. (aka worthless anti-Mormon rhetoric)

True to say it is false is worthless anti-Christian rhetoric.. Oh these "is so, is not" arguments are so authoritative..


Non sequitur. But this does raise an interesting question: What's the point of being with God in heaven if you aren't allowed to ***ociate with Him?

The Scripture says that those that believe that He is God will be protected under His wings.. That He will wipe away all their tears, and that He will except their worship.. It doesn't matter what you think you can do or gain from Him through obedience, God will do what he has promised in accordance with both His nature and His will.. His nature is that He alone in God and He is one Lord.. His promise is that whosoever believes it Him will not perish but have everlasting life.. If you deny His nature and worship beings that are plural then you can't gain a place before Him faith in a false God guarantees nothing.. Believing in the God of the Bible is required, believing in the God of Joseph Smith and DOING all the good works such a God demands excludes a person from God's salvation, until there is recognition of the true and living God and repentance for all sin including holding a false God before Him.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

How do you know it doesn't? The Bible doesn't say explicitly but it sure sounds like they will be judging similar to what Christ will be doing.

Does it? And you can know for sure that they can judge for salvation because of what, your feelings? You better wait and see what their judgment is all about.. It isn't I that am guessing.. You are doing that. You are adding your own feelings to what God has given us in His word.. Unless you know for sure by the scriptures that what you are saying is the truth you shouldn't use it to make a point.. I say WITH AUTHORITY that whosoever believes in Jesus (the real Jesus) will not die but have everlasting life.. That disagrees with mormonism and with 99% of the world that wants to measure good works against bad works.. So how can anyone trust your perception of what the Apostles will judge Israel for? IHS jim

[James Banta]

The Bible disagrees with you, as has been pointed out.

It has? I have agreed that many if not all people make judgments.. But NO ONE JUDGES for salvation that is God's duty and not man's and you haven't shown from the Bible that it isn't.. The Bible teaches that God judges the heart.. No where does it say that the Apostle, Prophets or the Saints have that authority.. IHS jim

[Snow Patrol]

Does it? And you can know for sure that they can judge for salvation because of what, your feelings? You better wait and see what their judgment is all about.. It isn't I that am guessing.. You are doing that. You are adding your own feelings to what God has given us in His word.. Unless you know for sure by the scriptures that what you are saying is the truth you shouldn't use it to make a point

I'm not reading anything into it. It is you that is picking and choosing parts of the Bible that you'll believe. It is pretty clear "28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

[Erundur]

To agree with your line of discussion on this point I will say YES, IT DOES.. then say that unless you can show where the OP says that Smith was exalted above Jesus you are wrong twice..
"What I did not expect to find is that IN THEIR HYMNS the LDS people actually exalt him into a god, and in some cases supplant the glory of Jesus Christ."
"So the issue before us is "Do these words exalt Joseph over Jesus?"


It is your ***ertion that different cl***es mingle together so show me where that is done and I will concede the point..
This happens in the Church of Jesus Christ.

[James Banta]

"What I did not expect to find is that IN THEIR HYMNS the LDS people actually exalt him into a god, and in some cases supplant the glory of Jesus Christ."
"So the issue before us is "Do these words exalt Joseph over Jesus?"


This happens in the Church of Jesus Christ.

Maybe your problem is that you don't understand big words like "supplant".. It doesn't mean to move beyond another, it means to take the place of another by force or scheming. Isn't that what this hymn says of Smith? Instead of God (Jesus) planning for His church, Smith is placed in that roll? That is to supplant God (Jesus) with the man Joseph Smith.. That hymn exalts Smith to the level of God (Jesus)..

The cl***es DO NOT mingle in the LDS church. The poor are isolated socially by those who have been called to positions in the Ward/Branch. I know that first hand, I lived it.. As a young Airman in the branch in North Dakota I was seldom spoken too unless it was an insult coming from one of the children.. That always made me wonder where such thoughts came from originally.. This was a large branch with over 300 members and yet weeks would go by with not a word said to me.. I can count on one hand the members that gave me or my family any kind words.. You could say this was ins***utionalized by the Air Force in frowning on fraternization between officers and enlisted men, but many of the members there were locals and not ***ociated with the military. I am sorry but the built in pride of the wealthier LDS creates division.. IHS jim

[Snow Patrol]

The cl***es DO NOT mingle in the LDS church. The poor are isolated socially by those who have been called to positions in the Ward/Branch. I know that first hand, I lived it.. As a young Airman in the branch in North Dakota I was seldom spoken too unless it was an insult coming from one of the children.. That always made me wonder where such thoughts came from originally.. This was a large branch with over 300 members and yet weeks would go by with not a word said to me.. I can count on one hand the members that gave me or my family any kind words.. You could say this was ins***utionalized by the Air Force in frowning on fraternization between officers and enlisted men, but many of the members there were locals and not ***ociated with the military. I am sorry but the built in pride of the wealthier LDS creates division.. IHS jim


You know what, you lived this, what 40 years ago? This was an isolated experience and is not reflective of what I've experienced in the last 40 years. You really shouldn't keep bringing this up as what is happening in the church today.

[Erundur]

Maybe your problem is that you don't understand big words like "supplant"..
No, it can't be that.


It doesn't mean to move beyond another, it means to take the place of another by force or scheming. Isn't that what this hymn says of Smith? Instead of God (Jesus) planning for His church, Smith is placed in that roll?
No.


That is to supplant God (Jesus) with the man Joseph Smith.. That hymn exalts Smith to the level of God (Jesus)..
False.


The cl***es DO NOT mingle in the LDS church.
Of course they do. I've mingled with people who are richer than me, and with people who are poorer than me.

[Snow Patrol]

Of course they do. I've mingled with people with people who are richer than me, and with people who are poorer than me.


James loves to use an experience that happened decades ago as example of every LDS ward and branch out there and seems to accept other current member's experiences as to true examples.

[Snow Patrol]

James loves to use an experience that happened decades ago as example of every LDS ward and branch out there and seems to accept other current member's experiences as to true examples.

James loves to use an experience that happened decades ago as example of every LDS ward and branch out there and seems (NOT) to accept other current member's experiences as to true examples

[James Banta]

You know what, you lived this, what 40 years ago? This was an isolated experience and is not reflective of what I've experienced in the last 40 years. You really shouldn't keep bringing this up as what is happening in the church today.

You haven't walked by my side during the years I was LDS.. You don't know what was done and how far reaching it was.. Your denials that this isn't the general mind set of the membership of the church is worthless like most of your posts.. This one was a bit better at least I wasn't called a liar.. IHS jim

[Phoenix]

According to the Dictionary blasphemy is:

Theology . the crime of ***uming to oneself the rights or qualities of God. (Dictionary.com)



What do you think of this?

"Christian sentenced to death for blasphemy in Pakistan"

"Masih, a cleaner, was accused of insulting the Prophet Mohammed during a conversation with a Muslim friend in the eastern city of Lahore. Within hours, about 3000 protesters had set light to Christian homes and churches in an area known as Joseph Colony... "

(from the Telegraph)

[John T]

What do you think of this?

"Christian sentenced to death for blasphemy in Pakistan"

"Masih, a cleaner, was accused of insulting the Prophet Mohammed during a conversation with a Muslim friend in the eastern city of Lahore. Within hours, about 3000 protesters had set light to Christian homes and churches in an area known as Joseph Colony... "

(from the Telegraph)

THIS IS THE MORMONISM THREAD

Your not bringing up Islamic fundamentalists is much appreciated. Surely that can be discussed on ANOTHER forum. (get the hint?)

[John T]

The lyrics say that he mingles with Gods.. That is making him equal with God, not above Him..

No it doesn't, but even if it did, that would disprove the OP's claim that Joseph is exalted above Jesus.

What then are these things saying?

Endless ages own its sway,
Clad in everlasting day.

A prophet to his name,

The prophets of old beheld this day,
Its glory told in wondrous lay.

3. T hey saw our prophet dear,
Who times of fulness ushered in.
Come, sing to the Lord, his praises ring!

4. The keys of the priesthood of our Lord
<SNIP>
And pow'rs divine are manifest.

'Twas the boy's first uttered prayer--

When the pow'rs of sin ***ailing
Filled his soul with deep despair;

And he heard the Savior say,
"Go and prune my vineyard, son!"

Please go on and then tell us how the words do not mean what they mean.

[Erundur]

What then are these things saying?
They say exactly what they say, which is not "Joseph is exalted above Jesus."


Please go on and then tell us how the words do not mean what they mean.
That's your ***.

[RealFakeHair]

They say exactly what they say, which is not "Joseph is exalted above Jesus."


That's your ***.

TBMs have got to be blind in one eye, and can't see out of the other. I challenge any LDSinc. TBM to go in any Baptist church, and if you find them singing of any other name but God and His Son Jesus, and The Holy Ghost, I'll join the LDSinc. cult myself!

[James Banta]

What do you think of this?

"Christian sentenced to death for blasphemy in Pakistan"

"Masih, a cleaner, was accused of insulting the Prophet Mohammed during a conversation with a Muslim friend in the eastern city of Lahore. Within hours, about 3000 protesters had set light to Christian homes and churches in an area known as Joseph Colony... "

(from the Telegraph)

I think that is a blatant attack on the Church by the forces of hell. How is that relevant to the subject of the thread? The church has attacked no one physically. The only charges we bring are on an organization not a person. We have not burned and property, we have not arrested any person. All we have done is said it is blasphemy to ***ign the works of God to a mere man. God judges who enters His Kingdom not Joseph Smith.. God adds to His Church those who are being saved, not Joseph Smith. God's plans for this world are those that will be fulfilled not Joseph Smith's. If you see Smith working in any of those tasks you are committing blasphemy.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

[Erundur;154366]No, it can't be that.


No.


False.


Your unsupported denials are worthless..


Of course they do. I've mingled with people who are richer than me, and with people who are poorer than me.

In Microcosm look at LDS church leadership. There are no poor men is all the first 4 of the LDS churches highest leadership quorums. Even in the First quorum of the 70 there are no men that are by income less that upper cl***. What kind of men did Jesus call to such positions? A tax collector, mere fishermen, the common men of Israel. When a man of means asked Jesus if he could follow Him he was told to sell all he had and give it to the poor and then come and follow Him..

The Apostles of the Christian Church are those that Jesus called, those that followed Him, and learned directly from Him.. We don't call rich men to lead and direct the Church. In fact there are no Apostles of Jesus that live in the flesh today with the same authority of those Jesus called.. We do have some that use the general meaning of the term apostle in the Church.. That meaning is missionary.. We leave to those that usurp the authority of God and ***ign it to themselves to call themselves special witnesses of Jesus (Acts 1:21-22).. IHS jim

[James Banta]

James loves to use an experience that happened decades ago as example of every LDS ward and branch out there and seems to accept other current member's experiences as to true examples.

James love to tell the truth.. Which I have done here time and again.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

I'm not reading anything into it. It is you that is picking and choosing parts of the Bible that you'll believe. It is pretty clear "28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

What is it that makes you believe that I deny that p***age.. Are these judged for their salvation by the 12? If that were the case what is the Great White Throne judgement for? It is only there where people are cast into the Lake of Fire. I don't doubt that the 12 will judge Israel but not for salvation.. That last judgment is God's alone.. Seems as though you are the one denying the scripture not me.. IHS jim

[Erundur]

In Microcosm look at LDS church leadership. There are no poor men is all the first 4 of the LDS churches highest leadership quorums. Even in the First quorum of the 70 there are no men that are by income less that upper cl***.
Prove it.

And don't forget, the issue which you are trying to distract from is whether people of different socio-economic status are allowed to mingle.

[James Banta]

Prove it.

And don't forget, the issue which you are trying to distract from is whether people of different socio-economic status are allowed to mingle.

I didn't say allowed. that is your invention.. I said they don't mingle..

It is known that general authorities of the LDS Church receive a percentage of their former professional incomes as a salary. It is also known that not one of them from the First Quorum of the Seventy to the President of the Church is paid less than $50,000 a year (http://www.salamandersociety.com/foyer/salar).. The Church will not release this information so those that are interested have done some clandestine investigation. Since $50,000 is a mere percentage of their professional incomes, all these men were very successful before they entered into full time church service.. No one with a modest income could afford to drop it and take a 50 or 60 percent cut in income.. therefore all the GAs were wealth men.. That proves it..

Still the lack of mingling of socioeconomic groups is answered by the simple adage "Birds of a feather".. IHS jim

[Erundur]

I didn't say allowed. that is your invention.. I said they don't mingle..
But you're wrong. They do.


It is known that general authorities of the LDS Church receive a percentage of their former professional incomes as a salary. It is also known that not one of them from the First Quorum of the Seventy to the President of the Church is paid less than $50,000 a year (http://www.salamandersociety.com/foyer/salar).. The Church will not release this information so those that are interested have done some clandestine investigation. Since $50,000 is a mere percentage of their professional incomes, all these men were very successful before they entered into full time church service.. No one with a modest income could afford to drop it and take a 50 or 60 percent cut in income.. therefore all the GAs were wealth men.. That proves it..
LOL, "it is known" proves nothing. And your link doesn't work.


Still the lack of mingling of socioeconomic groups is answered by the simple adage "Birds of a feather"..
But the lack of mingling exists only in your imagination, or perhaps only in your life. The rest of us seem to have no problem doing it.

[James Banta]

[Erundur;154391]But you're wrong. They do.

You're wrong they DON'T.. There another "Is so, is not" argument.. A bishop a few months back proved it as he came to church dressed as a homeless man and was asked to leave (sltrib.com/article.php?id=29053016&itype=storyID).. Yes the leadership went out to help him but as this Bishop said that everyone was uncomfortable as he sat on the front row. His presence there created stir. Even more than if I walked in and sat down for a service.. This shows me that you are clearly wrong..



LOL, "it is known" proves nothing. And your link doesn't work.

So sorry I didn't notice that the Y was dropped on the word SALARY.. What it shows it that there are no lower or even middle cl*** people in the higher quorums in the LDS church.. That are all wealthy.. Even those we would see as middle cl*** were upper cl*** in their home countries.



But the lack of mingling exists only in your imagination, or perhaps only in your life. The rest of us seem to have no problem doing it.

No it exists as part of my personal history, and that from the days of my youth attending MIA to the day I finally left the church for good. IHS jim

[Phoenix]

THIS IS THE MORMONISM THREAD
Yup, and someone in this thread wanted to debate the definition of......


BLASPHEMY.


He had one definition of it and discounted all others. I provided a different definition, from recent world events.

And you had a conniption fit over it. Interesting.


Your not bringing up Islamic fundamentalists is much appreciated.
Your not flying off the handle is much appreciated.


Surely that can be discussed on ANOTHER forum. (get the hint?)
Surely you can do a better *** of interacting with other posters than that. Get the hint?

[James Banta]

[Phoenix;154394]Yup, and someone in this thread wanted to debate the definition of......

BLASPHEMY.

Maybe that is because mormonism and blasphemy are so intertwined. Mormonism is a religion whose purpose is to exalt mere men to the level of Godhood.. Not just for saying that we are children of God and heirs of His Kingdom but Gods that will go out into the cosmos and become a God, a Father in Heaven, to a whole new generation of spirit children that will begin to build their own path to Godhood. That is blasphemy and the ONLY reason for mormonism to exist.. So I say again mormonism and blasphemy are the same thing.


He had one definition of it and discounted all others. I provided a different definition, from recent world events.

How terrible I used the definition that the dictionary defined for theology as the crime of ***uming to oneself the rights or qualities of God. (Dictionary.com). I would say if there is another definition of the word that the LDS like better they should present it along with it's source.. How about LDS.com, shall we look?

Gospel Topics: Blasphemy (https://www.lds.org/search?q=Blasphemy&lang=eng&domains=gospel-topics)
Becoming Like God (https://www.lds.org/topics/becoming-like-god?lang=eng&query=Blasphemy)

LDS.org

...Testament p***ages also point to this doctrine. When Jesus was accused of blasphemy on the grounds that “thou, being a man, makest thyself God,”

Wow, look at that even the LDS church's own site MUST admit that blasphemy is making one's self God.. This statement has the same meaning that the dictionary has.. And yet their core doctrine is that they might receive immortality and eternal life.. remember the church teaches that
Eternal Life (https://www.lds.org/topics/eternal-life?lang=eng&query=eternal+life+is+God%27s+life)

LDS.org

Eternal Life Eternal life is the phrase used in scripture to define the quality of life that our Eternal Father lives

Mormonism has coined a phrase about this "Eternal life is God's life..



I have discussed mormonism and kept all my words to that subject.. I wonder why you had so much trouble doing so? Maybe it easier to try to divert attention onto a sister cult than defend the lies that are taught in mormonism.. IHS jim

[Phoenix]

I think that is a blatant attack on the Church by the forces of hell.
What do you think of how the rest of the world defines blasphemy, compared to how you defined it?


How is that relevant to the subject of the thread?
In the thread, someone gave his definition of blasphemy. I provided evidence that another definition exists.


God judges who enters His Kingdom not Joseph Smith.. God adds to His Church those who are being saved, not Joseph Smith. God's plans for this world are those that will be fulfilled not Joseph Smith's.

Who judges whether your definition of "blasphemy" is the only one, or the correct one?

[John T]

Yup, and someone in this thread wanted to debate the definition of......


BLASPHEMY.


He had one definition of it and discounted all others. I provided a different definition, from recent world events.

And you had a conniption fit over it. Interesting.


Your not flying off the handle is much appreciated.


Surely you can do a better *** of interacting with other posters than that. Get the hint?

From the way that you mishandled my post, and the way that you are derailing this entire thread, I suspect that you are a once-banned poster resurrecting here, hence the user name "Phoenix" taken from mythology.

My guess is that you are sir/apollos because the name apollos is another name taken from Greek mythology.

Hey Jill!

Can you do an ISP check on this guy to see if he uses the same ISP as apollos/sir did? His posts here are very reminiscent of the caliber of the posts of that fellow. Insipid.

[Erundur]

You're wrong they DON'T..
You're wrong; they do.


A bishop a few months back proved it as he came to church dressed as a homeless man and was asked to leave (sltrib.com/article.php?id=29053016&itype=storyID).. Yes the leadership went out to help him but as this Bishop said that everyone was uncomfortable as he sat on the front row. His presence there created stir. Even more than if I walked in and sat down for a service.. This shows me that you are clearly wrong..
That's only because you don't know what "hasty generalization" means.

[alanmolstad]

Hey Jill!

Can you do an ISP check .yes she can....or if anyone's manners dip below what is required that person can just join the names that are banned.

But I suggest that if a person has started to show incorrect behavior that in addition to having Jill check things out you might also add the person's name to the list of people on your personal IGNORE list.....it ends the problem a lot quicker and allows you to personally control who gets to have the privilege of getting their words on your computer screen....

[Zeus]

From the way that you mishandled my post, and the way that you are derailing this entire thread, I suspect that you are a once-banned poster resurrecting here, hence the user name "Phoenix" taken from mythology.

My guess is that you are sir/apollos because the name apollos is another name taken from Greek mythology.

Hey Jill!

Can you do an ISP check on this guy to see if he uses the same ISP as apollos/sir did? His posts here are very reminiscent of the caliber of the posts of that fellow. Insipid.

How do you know that name was taken from mythology? Apollos is the name of a well-versed Biblical (NT) character. That seems to be more in line with a religious forum and the name.

[James Banta]

[Phoenix;154399]What do you think of how the rest of the world defines blasphemy, compared to how you defined it?

I believe the words mean things.. Those meaning are recorded in books call dictionaries. I took the meaning for the word blasphemy directing from one of those books.. Therefore I would believe that the English speaking world holds the same meaning for that word as is recorded.. It would be the uneducated that would MAKE UP some other meaning..


In the thread, someone gave his definition of blasphemy. I provided evidence that another definition exists.

Like I said "it would be the uneducated that would MAKE UP some other meaning".


Who judges whether your definition of "blasphemy" is the only one, or the correct one?

The same group of people that have decided what the words you just used mean. Words like "judges, definition and correct". All these words have meaning and if you don't know what that meaning is, the dictionary is right there to help you out with meaning.. Remember I scanned down the definition until I found the meaning ***ociated with theology. A theological meaning of the word blasphemy would be the correct meaning for the subject we are discussing would it not? Look again for yourself, I use Dictionary.com to get access to word meaning, I really don't care what you use.. I have shown you the meaning of the word from that source and from LDS.org.. You don't see to accept either one.. But I will quote them again:

Dictionary.com
Blasphemy
Theology . the crime of ***uming to oneself the rights or qualities of God.

LDS.org
Gospel Topics: Blasphemy (https://www.lds.org/search?q=Blasphemy&lang=eng&domains=gospel-topics)

Becoming Like God (https://www.lds.org/topics/becoming-like-god?lang=eng&query=Blasphemy)



LDS.org

...Testament p***ages also point to this doctrine. When Jesus was accused of blasphemy on the grounds that “thou, being a man, makest thyself God,”...

Just what more do you demand? You have it from the dictionary, and from your own church.. I have not told you what my personal definition is. You must have one out an official source, Since I have now restated the dictionary.com and LDS.org definitions please restate what you believe blasphemy to mean.. Personally I will stand by these as the meaning of the word. IHS jim

[Phoenix]

How do you know that name was taken from mythology? Apollos is the name of a well-versed Biblical (NT) character. That seems to be more in line with a religious forum and the name.

But that would require that the attacker is familiar with such Biblical names. :)

[James Banta]

But that would require that the attacker is familiar with such Biblical names. :)

The only problem you both have with the idea that Apollos is a Bible name is the fact that the missionary that was known by that name was a Greek, and his parents were probably pagans that believed in the Greek gods.. So the man Apollos found in the Bible was named after a Pagan god.. So in fact the name was taken from mythology.. IHS jim

[Phoenix]

I believe the words mean things..
Yeah, no one is claiming that words don't mean things. The problem is that what you think words mean isn't always what they really mean.


It would be the uneducated that would MAKE UP some other meaning..
You mean some other meaning such as:

"great disrespect shown to God or to something holy" ? Or "something said or done that is disrespectful to God or to something holy" ? (merriam-webster)

Or "impious utterance or action concerning God or sacred things"?

Or, in Judaism, "an act of cursing or reviling God"? Or "pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton (YHVH)"? (dictionary.reference.com)

Or "A contemptuous or profane act, utterance, or writing concerning God or a sacred en***y" ? (the free dictionary)

All those definitions are from dictionaries, James. It would be uneducated to ***ume otherwise.


Like I said "it would be the uneducated that would MAKE UP some other meaning".
Would it be uneducated to claim that the one you cherry-picked is the only one, or the most correct one?


All these words have meaning and if you don't know what that meaning is, the dictionary is right there to help you out with meaning.
It was there to help you out as well, but you didn't seem to use it. Why not?


Remember I scanned down the definition until I found the meaning ***ociated with theology.
The ones I cited seem to be related to theology. After all, they talked about insulting, profaning, or cursing God.


..I really don't care what you use..
Thanks for not caring. Presumably, that means you won't object to what I use.


the crime of ***uming to oneself the rights or qualities of God.
James, are you admitting that there aren't any qualities or rights of God that you claim to also have? One of God's qualities is the ability to know right from wrong, good from evil. Are you saying you don't also have that quality? How about eternal life? God has eternal life, correct? Don't you also claim to have eternal life?

So, doesn't the evidence indicate that you are guilty of "the crime of ***uming to oneself the rights or qualities of God"?
Are you guilty of blasphemy, according to your dictionary.com definition of the word?


...Testament p***ages also point to this doctrine. When Jesus was accused of blasphemy on the grounds that “thou, being a man, makest thyself God,”...
But to the Jews, that could qualify as blasphemy under the other definitions, because it was "great disrespect shown to God or to something holy" Or "something said or done that is disrespectful to God or to something holy"

Or "impious utterance or action concerning God or sacred things."


Just what more do you demand?
I don't think I have demanded anything yet. But I would like to see some common sense and civility.

[Phoenix]

By the way, James, one more question regarding blasphemy:

If someone were to say "Jesus promised us that we would do even greater thing than He did"
would that person be guilty of blasphemy according to your favorite definition of the word?











http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?3285-Joseph-smith-was-the-only-witness-to-the-bom/page6

[RealFakeHair]

By the way, James, one more question regarding blasphemy:

If someone were to say "Jesus promised us that we would do even greater thing than He did"
would that person be guilty of blasphemy according to your favorite definition of the word?











http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?3285-Joseph-smith-was-the-only-witness-to-the-bom/page6
When ol jo lied to his wife Emma about his foolen around is that work greater than Jesus?

[alanmolstad]

When ol jo lied to his wife Emma about his foolen around is that work greater than Jesus?

You raise a good question.
Im not really sure of the context that Jesus spoke within, but it is true that Joe Smith was a horny dog and clearly bedded-down a great number of skirts.

[Zeus]

The only problem you both have with the idea that Apollos is a Bible name....

Where did I claim "Apollos" is a "bible name"? I said Apollos is the name of a biblical character. That is a simple fact that does not try to read into it folklore or from where names were derived.

So there is no problem at all.


....is the fact that the missionary that was known by that name was a Greek, and his parents were probably pagans that believed in the Greek gods.. So the man Apollos found in the Bible was named after a Pagan god.. So in fact the name was taken from mythology.. IHS jim

How do you know this? Aren't you reading into a Bible name something that isn't stated?

[RealFakeHair]

You raise a good question.
Im not really sure of the context that Jesus spoke within, but it is true that Joe Smith was a horny dog and clearly bedded-down a great number of skirts.

I understand most mormons don't know or care to know about the low life Joseph Smith jr. Lived. However it doesn't change the facts concerning his life long dream of beddilng every women he placed his eyes on.

[alanmolstad]

Where did I claim "Apollos" is a "bible name"?
?

its a nice name.....its a bible name....nothing wrong with naming a son it even today.....it sounds Spanish...

[alanmolstad]

I understand most Mormons don't know or care to know about the low life Joseph Smith jr. Lived. yes, very true.
They all do seem to have a moral- "blind spot" when it comes to Smith and the way he cheated on his wife.

[James Banta]

[Phoenix;154410]Yeah, no one is claiming that words don't mean things. The problem is that what you think words mean isn't always what they really mean.

I believe I said that I agree with what is recorded in both the dictionary and LDS.org as to what the meaning of blasphemy is.. Since you disagree with me you are saying that you have a different meaning for the word.. A definition that you personally created.. I don't accept your personal meaning of the word..



You mean some other meaning such as:

"great disrespect shown to God or to something holy" ? Or "something said or done that is disrespectful to God or to something holy" ? (merriam-webster)

Well you have finally gone to an authoritative source as to the meaning of the word.. Can that meaning be identified by what I have been teaching here or is it more what Smith and his church has been teaching.. Doesn't God's word tell us that the Lord our God is one Lord and then isn't it LDS doctrine that there are three Gods for this world? Doesn't the Bible teach that God has been God from everlasting to everlasting? So to teach that the gods of mormonism became Gods at some time in the distant past, is to say that God is wrong. That His word is untrue. That is to show great disrespect to God or to something holy (like His word, or His promise that even if heaven and earth die His word will never die).. By this definition in merriam-webster it is mormonism again that is blasphemous not the Church.. I will accept your definition as a second meaning for blasphemy.. Can you accept the first one I brought up?



Or "impious utterance or action concerning God or sacred things"?

Or, in Judaism, "an act of cursing or reviling God"? Or "pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton (YHVH)"? (dictionary.reference.com)

Or "A contemptuous or profane act, utterance, or writing concerning God or a sacred en***y" ? (the free dictionary)

All those definitions are from dictionaries, James. It would be uneducated to ***ume otherwise.

I am pleased that you finally decided to educate yourself.. And I accept these definitions. You still seem unwilling to accept the definition I brought to your attention.. I am willing to accept these.. Maybe you need show me that the LDS church is not blasphemous is all these ways?

Is there a impious utterance uttered by mormonism in the teaching that God is eternally God? YES It is taught by Smith that God became God.

Does mormonism show disrespect for something Holy? YES It belittles the Bible denying the promises of Jesus the even if heaven and earth p*** away His word (and Jesus is God) would never p*** away. Yet mormonism teaches that it has done just that. It teaches many plain and precious things have been removed from the Bible. That show great disrespect for the Bible and the promises of Jesus about His word..

If the Bible is God's word to say that it is wrong is to call God a liar that is a contemptuous utterance. The Bible teaches that Mary was found to be with child of the Holy Spirit. Mormonism teaches that that is WRONG.. That the Father was the person by which Mary was found to be with Child. A prophet of mormonism has said that "When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten Him in His own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost.". That is in full contempt for the Word of God..

That covers each point except what Judaism teaches. I don't see any reason to fold ourselves into what they teach..



Would it be uneducated to claim that the one you cherry-picked is the only one, or the most correct one?

I concede the point that other meanings exist.. That doesn't lesson the fact that the definition I brought up is not a meaning of the word.. I have just shown you that mormonism is in blasphemy on each definition you presented. You haven't shown that I have done so Biblically..


It was there to help you out as well, but you didn't seem to use it. Why not?

I explained that when I presented the definition.. I use Dictionary.com and used only the definition under the heading Theology. I excluded all the others as irrelevant. After all we are specking of theological matters here aren't we?

The ones I cited seem to be related to theology. After all, they talked about insulting, profaning, or cursing God.

I have conceded that point.. You still haven't accepted that I gave a perfectly solid definition for the word blasphemy.. I have also shown how mormonism has committed blasphemy based on each of the definitions you have brought forward. You have not show how I or any other member of the Church has done so..


Thanks for not caring. Presumably, that means you won't object to what I use.

That is what it means bring all you have.. If it has merit I will agree.. What you have presented did have merit and I accept it. I have also showed you how mormonism lays in sin by the same definition you have brought..


James, are you admitting that there aren't any qualities or rights of God that you claim to also have? One of God's qualities is the ability to know right from wrong, good from evil. Are you saying you don't also have that quality? How about eternal life? God has eternal life, correct? Don't you also claim to have eternal life?

I claim to have ONLY what God has given to me.. God provided the means by which the knowledge of good and evil could come to mankind. Eternal life is a gift of God through faith in Jesus. The attributes we share with God are those things He has provided for us.. He has the power of life and death over all flesh. Can we say we have that authority because as His children he has made the knowledge of good and evil available or given eternal life to those that believe? I claim nothing. I accept the good God have given and offered as His gifts to share with us as He sees fit.. But what he has shared was in His will not ours.. We can take nothing.. ti say we can would be blasphemy ascribing power to ourselves that are God's alone..


So, doesn't the evidence indicate that you are guilty of "the crime of ***uming to oneself the rights or qualities of God"?
Are you guilty of blasphemy, according to your dictionary.com definition of the word?

Since I claim nothing I have ***umed nothing not even the breath in my lungs much less an attribute of God.. I am not guilty of blasphemy because I have accepted God's gifts.. It would be blasphemous not to accept what God has given. What he hasn't offered is Godhood to anyone or anything.. He is God there is no other. He has made it clear that no other God was ever nor will another ever be formed. To teach against God's word would be blasphemy, that is something that is common in mormonism.. Remember what is taught by "prophets" in mormonism ? That we are Gods in embryo. In the Teachings of Spencer w Kimball he reaffirms the teaching that men are Gods in embryo (www.lds.org/search?lang=eng&query=Gods+in+Embro (http://www.lds.org/search?lang=eng&query=Gods+in+Embro)) as was first taught by John Taylor (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: John Taylor, 2001, pp2-3).. Try to gain a clear understanding of blasphemy in making men Gods outside the Biblical teaching of who and what God is..


But to the Jews, that could qualify as blasphemy under the other definitions, because it was "great disrespect shown to God or to something holy" Or "something said or done that is disrespectful to God or to something holy"Or "impious utterance or action concerning God or sacred things."


And what did they see standing before them? A person of flesh and bone, a man.. And that man claimed to be God saying that before Abraham was "I AM". In their sight Jesus was committing blasphemy.. They saw a man that was telling them that He was God..


I don't think I have demanded anything yet. But I would like to see some common sense and civility.

You have has both.. I asked you to educate yourself. You did.. I like that and praise you for your work. I have conceded that other dictionaries have made some good points.. That is civility.. I have also shown that mormonism is in blasphemy no matter what definition you have used.. That is common sense.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

By the way, James, one more question regarding blasphemy:

If someone were to say "Jesus promised us that we would do even greater thing than He did"
would that person be guilty of blasphemy according to your favorite definition of the word?

By what power and authority are such things done? Yes, the promise of the Lord was that we would do even greater things than He had done and by His power, in His name, and through His authority Billions have been feed. Water has been provided, illness has been cured. The Church has done greater works than Jesus had, but at the same time the Church is merely the hands and feet of Her Lord.. Again the LDS church sees such things as feeding the hungry as their good works, the Church sees this as the Lord feeding then through His Church. Mormonism is in blasphemy the Church is not.. IHS jim

[Phoenix]

So you have a double standard, where you believe that you are allowed to think you can be greater than Jesus, but if other people think it, they are guilty of blasphemy, but you are not?

[James Banta]

So you have a double standard, where you believe that you are allowed to think you can be greater than Jesus, but if other people think it, they are guilty of blasphemy, but you are not?

The p***age doesn't teach that the believers in Jesus will be greater than He. It says they will do greater things.. I have shown that the Church has done greater things all in the name of Jesus and by His authority. Your misuse of the p***age speaks volumes. It explains why you believe that the unlearned man could read the seal book. Why the the stick of Joseph is a book and not a symbol of the Northern kingdom of Israel. And why the other sheep are seen as Israelis and not the gentiles.. You just have no idea of how to read the Bible and no Helper to teach it to you.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

How do you know this? Aren't you reading into a Bible name something that isn't stated?

Not at all. This isn't a Bible study it is an exercise in logic. There is no doubt that the man's name was Apollos. This is no doubt that he was a Greek. His parents lived before the Christian era. The religion of Greeks before Christianity came to Greece was Paganism. They believed in the Gods of Olympus. the people would therefore sometimes name their children in honor of their Gods.. No it isn't in the Bible but this is the strongest explanation why he bore the name Apollos and not Isaiah, Jeremiah or Joshuah.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

its a nice name.....its a bible name....nothing wrong with naming a son it even today.....it sounds Spanish...


I like Norse mythology much better than Greek.. I vote all parents should used names like Odin, Loki, or Gefjun.. We could thrown in some Heroes' names for diversity.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

You're wrong; they do.


That's only because you don't know what "hasty generalization" means.

Unless you can prove that I am wrong what we have is merely a difference of opinion.. By saying this it is you that has used a hasty generality.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

The p***age doesn't teach that the believers in Jesus will be greater than He. It says they will do greater things.. I have shown that the Church has done greater things all in the name of Jesus and by His authority.

it is a weird thing when we look at the life of Christ.

Although at times Jesus had a following in the thousands, if you keep reading you see that each time he had a large following he could not hold the big crowds.
many times Jesus would say something so off the wall that everyone got up and left him.

At one point it got so bad that Jesus even turned to his Disciples and asked if they too were going to walk off?

So how many people that Jesus actually turn and convert?.....not many.
We tend to judge "greatness" by the miracles that are performed.....turn water into wine, heal the sick, make food appear out of thin air.
But the truth is that these things really did not convert many people at all to have faith in Christ.
In-fact, it could be said that once the miracles stopped for the day people walked away unconvinced about Jesus.

Then we have to consider the ministries of others in the church that really did reach out to the whole world, and their words and actions did clearly change the world.

In the life of Paul we see how this one guy managed to change the whole world....the number of people that even to this day are changed via the words from the hand of Paul recorded in the Bible now must number in the untold billions.

so in a very real way, the works of Paul are far, far, far greater than all of the works of Christ.

[Erundur]

Unless you can prove that I am wrong what we have is merely a difference of opinion..
Easily done. Your position is that people of different socio-economic status don't mingle. To prove you wrong I only have to produce one example of it happening. So here it is: as a missionary in southern Mexico, I mingled with people much poorer than me.

To prove me wrong, you would have to disprove every example of mingling that I can come up with.

[alanmolstad]

I like Norse mythology much better than Greek.. I vote all parents should used names like Odin, Loki, or Gefjun.. We could thrown in some Heroes' names for diversity.. IHS jim
The weird moment of meeting the Norse gods...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeqMCyQVdfA

[Phoenix]

The p***age doesn't teach that the believers in Jesus will be greater than He. It says they will do greater things..
Then why, when anti-LDS people refer to Joseph Smith claiming he had done a greater work than Jesus did by keeping a church together, do those anti-LDS people summarize it by saying "Old Joe Smith claimed to be greater than Jesus, so Mormons elevate Smith above Jesus" ??

Do you have an explanation for why those anti-LDS people disagree with you and with me regarding what that p***age does and doesn't teach?

Is it because those anti-LDS people have a wrong interpretation of the verse?
Is it because those anti-LDS people understand that the verse isn't saying that believers will be greater than Jesus, but those anti-LDS people just want to knowingly bear false witness against Joseph Smith, and against LDS people?

[James Banta]

[Phoenix;154478]Then why, when anti-LDS people refer to Joseph Smith claiming he had done a greater work than Jesus did by keeping a church together, do those anti-LDS people summarize it by saying "Old Joe Smith claimed to be greater than Jesus, so Mormons elevate Smith above Jesus" ??

Maybe because all Smith did was write a book and then turn to the profession of satisfying his own lusts evoking the name of God to get others (especially women) to bow to his will.. Examine the life of Billy Graham and see how a real man of God has conducted himself before God.. Look at the works Jesus is doing through the efforts of Bill's son Franklin. Samaritan's Purse has become a greater evidence of the Love of God to the poor, and those touch by disaster than even the Red Cross. And who does Franklin look to as the One resposible for the miricals of charity done by that agency, JESUS..

Ok The LDS seem to think that they are promised to do greater things that Jesus did. Just what do they say that have done that is greater than those things that Jesus has done.. They say they feed the poor.. Jesus did that.. They say they cure the sick.. Jesus did that. They wrote a Book of Scripture. Jesus (God) caused that the remembrance of His mortal ministry came to those He would use to pen the New Testament.. So what have they done that is greater that that which Jesus has done?


Do you have an explanation for why those anti-LDS people disagree with you and with me regarding what that p***age does and doesn't teach?

Is it because those anti-LDS people have a wrong interpretation of the verse?
Is it because those anti-LDS people understand that the verse isn't saying that believers will be greater than Jesus, but those anti-LDS people just want to knowingly bear false witness against Joseph Smith, and against LDS people?

Maybe it isn't that Smith said he and his church would do greater things than Jesus in the sheer amount of works that would be done. Maybe it was that Smith said not even Jesus could hold his believers together the way that he had.. The Church has existed since the day that the Holy Spirit first indwelt the disciples. That the time Smith gloried in his power to hold the church together it hadn't yet been even 100 years.. So did he lie or was he just being s t u p i d.

Yes Smith explained how he was greater than Jesus.. The thing is that He wasn't greater in holding a church together.. It was either a statement made by Smith out of i g n o r a n c e, or arrogance. I think it was both.. Either way I don't believe he was s t u p i d.. IHS jim

[Snow Patrol]

Maybe it isn't that Smith said he and his church would do greater things than Jesus in the sheer amount of works that would be done. Maybe it was that Smith said not even Jesus could hold his believers together the way that he had.. The Church has existed since the day that the Holy Spirit first indwelt the disciples. That the time Smith gloried in his power to hold the church together it hadn't yet been even 100 years.. So did he lie or was he just being s t u p i d.

Yes Smith explained how he was greater than Jesus.. The thing is that He wasn't greater in holding a church together.. It was either a statement made by Smith out of i g n o r a n c e, or arrogance. I think it was both.. Either way I don't believe he was s t u p i d.. IHS jim

Mod edit: DO NOT INSULT BOARD MEMBERS OR YOU WILL BE BANNED.

"Although at times Jesus had a following in the thousands, if you keep reading you see that each time he had a large following he could not hold the big crowds.
many times Jesus would say something so off the wall that everyone got up and left him.

At one point it got so bad that Jesus even turned to his Disciples and asked if they too were going to walk off?"

Joseph Smith was never talking about the church throughout the centuries. He was talking about the church/following that Jesus had while He was on the earth only.

[Apologette]

The p***age doesn't teach that the believers in Jesus will be greater than He. It says they will do greater things.. I have shown that the Church has done greater things all in the name of Jesus and by His authority. Your misuse of the p***age speaks volumes. It explains why you believe that the unlearned man could read the seal book. Why the the stick of Joseph is a book and not a symbol of the Northern kingdom of Israel. And why the other sheep are seen as Israelis and not the gentiles.. You just have no idea of how to read the Bible and no Helper to teach it to you.. IHS jim
Well, Apollos, Sir, what's the difference?

[James Banta]

In the call of Matthias to fill the place among the 12 that Judas gave up because of his denial we see that there were others outside the 12 that followed Jesus from the beginning of His mortal ministry. were there some that were there because if the signs and wonders, most certainly and yet there were some that believe in Jesus. Men like Matthias, Nicodemus, Joseph of Arimathaea, Mary His mother, Mary, Martha, Lazarus.. The list of faithful believers is long and not at all inclusive. There were many that believed on Him even though His words could be hard for many to hear..

I am not saying that Smith had no followers, I am saying that Smith did nothing as will as Jesus, especially not hold his church together.. Today the LDS church has many differences to the church Smith gave birth to and nurtured.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

That social economic cl*** could you belong to as a missionary? You had no income, unless you want to say that you received wage. You had to receive outside support from others that had an income.. You had nothing, you were des***ute, living off the charity of others. That would make you wrong again.. IHS jim

[Erundur]

That social economic cl*** could you belong to as a missionary? You had no income, unless you want to say that you received wage. You had to receive outside support from others that had an income.. You had nothing, you were des***ute, living off the charity of others. That would make you wrong again..
Okay, you want to define socio-economic cl***es based solely on income. So in heaven, how much income will people earn, and how much does God make?

[alanmolstad]

Okay, you want to define socio-economic cl***es based solely on income. So in heaven, how much income will people earn, and how much does God make?
gross or net?

[James Banta]

Not at all I want to define it by at***ude.. It's just that the conceit and pride is found mostly in people with money.. Jesus had a lot to say about the at***ude mostly ***ociated with wealth.. IHS jim

[Phoenix]

Ok The LDS seem to think that they are promised to do greater things that Jesus did.
Just like you seem to think that you are promised to do greater things than Jesus did, James. Actually, you stated that

"Jesus promised us that we would do even greater thing than He did. Do we not do marvelous works in His name? Every years millions are feed by the Church. Suffering of those caught up in disaster receive help and care during their darkest hours. Wells are dug, schools and hospitals built and staffed. All the while the Gospel is being spread"



Just what do they say that have done that is greater than those things that Jesus has done.. They say they feed the poor.. Jesus did that.. They say they cure the sick.. Jesus did that. They wrote a Book of Scripture. Jesus (God) caused that the remembrance of His mortal ministry came to those He would use to pen the New Testament.. So what have they done that is greater that that which Jesus has done?
You answered that question yourself, in the paragraph that I quoted.

[James Banta]

Just like you seem to think that you are promised to do greater things than Jesus did, James. Actually, you stated that

"Jesus promised us that we would do even greater thing than He did. Do we not do marvelous works in His name? Every years millions are feed by the Church. Suffering of those caught up in disaster receive help and care during their darkest hours. Wells are dug, schools and hospitals built and staffed. All the while the Gospel is being spread"



You answered that question yourself, in the paragraph that I quoted.

Are you claiming that mormonism is the hands and feet of the Lord Jesus? I claim that for the Church.. IHS jim

[Phoenix]

Are you claiming that mormonism is the hands and feet of the Lord Jesus? I claim that for the Church.. IHS jim
Maybe both claims are right.

[alanmolstad]

is this topic still alive?

[Erundur]

Not at all I want to define it by at***ude..
Okay, then we're back to post #95, where people of different cl***es do mingle.

[James Banta]

Okay, then we're back to post #95, where people of different cl***es do mingle.

If you call the rich having a superior at***ude and lording it over the poor. If you call ruling them, and telling them what to do mingling I will agree but seeing them as peers, NO WAY does that happen.. IHS jim