Religiondumb

[newnature]

Salvation is not doing; it is believing! It is counting what God believes to be true for you and about you as true for you and about you. Our performance is not the source of our righteousness before God; the only righteousness God can recognize is our position in Jesus Christ when it comes to mankind and mankind’s indwelling sin nature in the flesh. To believe that what you are doing and what you are restraining yourselves from doing is the way you are earning your righteous standing with God, you have got to put a lot of confidence in your flesh to do that; religiondumb is doing that! Those who are IN Jesus Christ are those who are NOT walking after the faulty ***umption that their righteousness is related to their performance, that was Israel’s problem. Those who are IN Jesus Christ are those who place no confidence in their flesh, but understand, as Paul understood, that in their flesh dwells no good thing. The sanctification that comes by way of being placed INTO Christ - joined to Christ - is positional truth. A sanctified position IN Christ comes not as a result of behavior, it comes as a result of belief! God is not looking at how well we adhere to any standard. God is not looking at our production. God is not looking at our behavior in order to view us as being in favor with him. What a marvelous plan God had for us! God has kept the fingerprints of the guilt-worthy off of the righteousness he designed for the guilt-worthy.

God’s Reconciliation of Man, read more about it at http://godsreconciliation.blogspot.com/

[Saxon]

Salvation is not doing; it is believing! It is counting what God believes to be true for you and about you as true for you and about you. Our performance is not the source of our righteousness before God; the only righteousness God can recognize is our position in Jesus Christ when it comes to mankind and mankind’s indwelling sin nature in the flesh. To believe that what you are doing and what you are restraining yourselves from doing is the way you are earning your righteous standing with God, you have got to put a lot of confidence in your flesh to do that; religiondumb is doing that! Those who are IN Jesus Christ are those who are NOT walking after the faulty ***umption that their righteousness is related to their performance, that was Israel’s problem. Those who are IN Jesus Christ are those who place no confidence in their flesh, but understand, as Paul understood, that in their flesh dwells no good thing. The sanctification that comes by way of being placed INTO Christ - joined to Christ - is positional truth. A sanctified position IN Christ comes not as a result of behavior, it comes as a result of belief! God is not looking at how well we adhere to any standard. God is not looking at our production. God is not looking at our behavior in order to view us as being in favor with him. What a marvelous plan God had for us! God has kept the fingerprints of the guilt-worthy off of the righteousness he designed for the guilt-worthy.

You seem to think that all that is required of the lost human is to become saved and all is well. There is a point in life that a person accepts the free gift of salvation and becomes a new creature in Christ. Is that all there is?

You also have written about those that are “in Christ” doing and restraining. Getting in Christ and being in Christ are two different things. Consider Ephesians 2:8 to 10. Ephesians 2:8 and 9 explains how we are to get into Christ. It also affirms that it is grace that saves a person through faith in Christ. There is also the fact that salvation is a gift. Verse 9 clearly states that it is not of works that we are saved in Christ. Now this is the way to get in Christ (saved) but what about when you are in Christ? Do you become like a plate of water waiting for the sweet by and by?

Ephesians 2:10 indicated that our time of work is upon us because we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Once we are in Christ Jesus we are expected to do works. This is not to save us, as it is clear that salvation has been bestowed upon us before the works are required.

My question to you is what happens if we do not do what God expects Christians to do? If you are going to be a Christian you have to do what a Christian is created to do. If a truck driver stops driving a truck, soon that person is no longer considered a truck driver. Performance has now become a factor (See John 15:1 to 10)

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
John 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
John 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

[alanmolstad]

when you draw closer to God, you reflect Him in your life more and more....

The Holy Spirit is said to be like the wind...it goes its way and while we see the results from time to time we dont see things too that are actually going on in hidden ways.
Its the same with us Christians too.
yes, from time to time you do see results of the life of Christ in a person's life and actions...but for the most part we area lot like watching the wind...we work in unseen ways to the world's eyes.....

[Saxon]

I don't see your point.

[alanmolstad]

I don't see your point.

Ok....

If you have a question about anything I might write, just let me know.

[Saxon]

I do not see how your post relates to my post that you responded to.

[disciple]

Salvation is not doing; it is believing! It is counting what God believes to be true for you and about you as true for you and about you. Our performance is not the source of our righteousness before God; the only righteousness God can recognize is our position in Jesus Christ when it comes to mankind and mankind’s indwelling sin nature in the flesh. To believe that what you are doing and what you are restraining yourselves from doing is the way you are earning your righteous standing with God, you have got to put a lot of confidence in your flesh to do that; religiondumb is doing that! Those who are IN Jesus Christ are those who are NOT walking after the faulty ***umption that their righteousness is related to their performance, that was Israel’s problem. Those who are IN Jesus Christ are those who place no confidence in their flesh, but understand, as Paul understood, that in their flesh dwells no good thing. The sanctification that comes by way of being placed INTO Christ - joined to Christ - is positional truth. A sanctified position IN Christ comes not as a result of behavior, it comes as a result of belief! God is not looking at how well we adhere to any standard. God is not looking at our production. God is not looking at our behavior in order to view us as being in favor with him. What a marvelous plan God had for us! God has kept the fingerprints of the guilt-worthy off of the righteousness he designed for the guilt-worthy.

You seem to think that all that is required of the lost human is to become saved and all is well. There is a point in life that a person accepts the free gift of salvation and becomes a new creature in Christ. Is that all there is?

You also have written about those that are “in Christ” doing and restraining. Getting in Christ and being in Christ are two different things. Consider Ephesians 2:8 to 10. Ephesians 2:8 and 9 explains how we are to get into Christ. It also affirms that it is grace that saves a person through faith in Christ. There is also the fact that salvation is a gift. Verse 9 clearly states that it is not of works that we are saved in Christ. Now this is the way to get in Christ (saved) but what about when you are in Christ? Do you become like a plate of water waiting for the sweet by and by?

Ephesians 2:10 indicated that our time of work is upon us because we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Once we are in Christ Jesus we are expected to do works. This is not to save us, as it is clear that salvation has been bestowed upon us before the works are required.

My question to you is what happens if we do not do what God expects Christians to do? If you are going to be a Christian you have to do what a Christian is created to do. If a truck driver stops driving a truck, soon that person is no longer considered a truck driver. Performance has now become a factor (See John 15:1 to 10)

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
John 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
John 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

I would like to add this to what you said. Of course we never have to work for salvation but Christians should be distinct and different from the world. And we told in the scriptures that if you are not living that way, if your life is not distinctly different from the world, there is a real possibility that you are not a Christian at all no matter what you claim, no matter what you imagine, no matter how religious you are. Unless there is a distinction in your living, there is a good possibility that there is no distinction in your nature either.
So if you're not living a different life there's a real possibility you're not a different person. New creatures act like new creatures.
You will have the knowledge of your salvation, the ***urance of your salvation, not by remembering a past event but by seeing a present virtue and growth.

[Saxon]

I would like to add this to what you said. Of course we never have to work for salvation but Christians should be distinct and different from the world. And we told in the scriptures that if you are not living that way, if your life is not distinctly different from the world, there is a real possibility that you are not a Christian at all no matter what you claim, no matter what you imagine, no matter how religious you are. Unless there is a distinction in your living, there is a good possibility that there is no distinction in your nature either.
So if you're not living a different life there's a real possibility you're not a different person. New creatures act like new creatures.
You will have the knowledge of your salvation, the ***urance of your salvation, not by remembering a past event but by seeing a present virtue and growth.

I can agree with you as to what you are adding. Does the adding indicate that you are in agreement with what I have posted? Would you be willing to answer the question from my post that you responded to and comment on the statement that follows keeping in mind the content of John 15:1 to 10? I have reposted it below.

My question to you is what happens if we do not do what God expects Christians to do? If you are going to be a Christian you have to do what a Christian is created to do. If a truck driver stops driving a truck, soon that person is no longer considered a truck driver. Performance has now become a factor (See John 15:1 to 10)

[disciple]

I can agree with you as to what you are adding. Does the adding indicate that you are in agreement with what I have posted? Would you be willing to answer the question from my post that you responded to and comment on the statement that follows keeping in mind the content of John 15:1 to 10? I have reposted it below.

My question to you is what happens if we do not do what God expects Christians to do? If you are going to be a Christian you have to do what a Christian is created to do. If a truck driver stops driving a truck, soon that person is no longer considered a truck driver. Performance has now become a factor (See John 15:1 to 10)

Hello Saxon,

I must first say that I believe that when a person is truly born again it is eternal, no losing your salvation. What happens if a Christian stops doing what God expects him to do? It's a hard question to answer, if you are ***uming disobedience then fellowship with God is affected and perhaps we have a situation similar to the prodigal son, still a son but no longer receiving the benefits normally given to one in the family.

[alanmolstad]

While the Lord may strike with the rod his children.....There are no abortions in the kingdom.

[Saxon]

Hello Saxon,

I must first say that I believe that when a person is truly born again it is eternal, no losing your salvation. What happens if a Christian stops doing what God expects him to do? It's a hard question to answer, if you are ***uming disobedience then fellowship with God is affected and perhaps we have a situation similar to the prodigal son, still a son but no longer receiving the benefits normally given to one in the family.

The prodigal son is an excellent situation that answers the question. Disobedience to God is sin. The wages of sin is still death unless Romans 6:23 has been rescinded. When the son took his part of the inheritance and departed from the Father he was not being obedient to the will of the father and sinned against him. Luke 15:24 is clear that the son was not simply out of fellowship, but he was dead. He may have still been a son but he was a dead son. His act of repentance restored him to life and to the Father.

Two questions for you; When you get saved, what is eternal, life for you? Ultimately, what is Eternal Life?

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord

Luke 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

[Saxon]

Abortion is not the prpblem.

[alanmolstad]

Abortion is not the prpblem.
amen!

There are no abortions and lost sheep in the Kingdom.

For when the son brings in the father's sheep not one will be lost!

The Good shepherd does not allow any sheep that have turned up missing to be lost.
For the Son will bring them ALL in....None will be lost.
No sheep will be allowed to jump the fence and stay lost....for when the Son seeks the lost sheep he ALWAYS finds that sheep, and when the Son finds that lost sheep he does not require that sheep to walk back on their own....

NO!....

For when the Son brings home that sheep that sheep will be carried by the Son...
This is the love the Son has for all of the father's sheep, that when the Son returns all the sheep to the father, some will not even be allowed to walk but will be carried to make 100% sure that ALL the Sheep of the father will be safe!

[Saxon]

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

[alanmolstad]

sending people to warn others is one of the ways the son makes 100% sure none of the sheep are lost!


none will be lost...none will turn up missing....all the sheep will be brought in safe...

[alanmolstad]

does the lost sheep save himself? no!

[disciple]

The prodigal son is an excellent situation that answers the question. Disobedience to God is sin. The wages of sin is still death unless Romans 6:23 has been rescinded. When the son took his part of the inheritance and departed from the Father he was not being obedient to the will of the father and sinned against him. Luke 15:24 is clear that the son was not simply out of fellowship, but he was dead. He may have still been a son but he was a dead son. His act of repentance restored him to life and to the Father.

Two questions for you; When you get saved, what is eternal, life or you? Ultimately, what is Eternal Life?

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord

Luke 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

I will try to answer both your questions. First we are told in John 17:3,"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." Eternal life can be thought of as something that Christians experience now. Believers don’t have to “wait” for eternal life, because it’s not something that starts when they die. Rather, eternal life begins the moment a person exercises faith in Christ. It is our current possession. John 3:36 says, “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life.” Note that the believer “has” (present tense) this. The focus of eternal life is not on our future, but on our current standing in Christ.
There is absolutely no evidence in Scripture that the Lord has ever taken back the gift of salvation once it has been given. His love and His promise keeps Him from doing so. Remember, Christ came to seek and to save the lost. Why would He take back what He came to provide? It is obvious that if we could lose our salvation we would, all of us. Even as Christians we are not perfect and could never be trusted to keep ourselves, so it is Him who keeps us. Jude 1:24-25 tells us,"Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen."

[Saxon]

You are writting of a whole pile of sheep that still wander off. Remember that a lost sheep is LOST.

If you ignore scripture warnings, will you be inclined to listen to a person warning you?

[Saxon]

If he is found again the Lord is more than willing to save.

[Saxon]

I will try to answer both your questions. First we are told in John 17:3,"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." Eternal life can be thought of as something that Christians experience now. Believers don’t have to “wait” for eternal life, because it’s not something that starts when they die. Rather, eternal life begins the moment a person exercises faith in Christ. It is our current possession. John 3:36 says, “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life.” Note that the believer “has” (present tense) this. The focus of eternal life is not on our future, but on our current standing in Christ.

I can agree with what you have said about eternal life. I do believe that a clearer understanding of eternal life will include what you have said but is much more than what you have said.

Eternal Life is a condition that exists in Christ alone. Only those that are “in Christ” are experiencing Eternal Life. The following verses are all ***ociating (Eternal) Life to Jesus Christ. So the answer to the question, what is ultimately Eternal Life? Would be that Jesus Christ is Eternal Life.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

John 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

John 6:48 I am that bread of life.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

John 14:6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him

1John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
1John 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

1John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

1John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.




There is absolutely no evidence in Scripture that the Lord has ever taken back the gift of salvation once it has been given. His love and His promise keeps Him from doing so. Remember, Christ came to seek and to save the lost. Why would He take back what He came to provide? It is obvious that if we could lose our salvation we would, all of us. Even as Christians we are not perfect and could never be trusted to keep ourselves, so it is Him who keeps us. Jude 1:24-25 tells us,"Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen."

The reason that there is absolutely no evidence in Scripture that the Lord has ever taken back the gift of salvation once it has been given is because there is nowhere in scripture that this has never happened. I find that there are a lot of people that read where it is written, “I will never leave you or forsake you” (See Hebrews 13:5) and immediately forget it and start to argue that he will never leave you or forsake you. This is not the problem. The problem is the believer that leaves and forsakes the living God. (See Hebrews 3:12 and Ezekiel 18:26) You will notice that the problem is not the Lord leaving or forsaking us, but us leaving and forsaking him.

I do disagree with your statement, “It is obvious that if we could lose our salvation we would, all of us.” 1John was written to Christians and tells us what we must do if we find ourselves in sin. Contrary to popular belief, salvation is conditional. The IF condition in 1John 1:9 is one of the many conditions of salvation in scripture. If we follow the lead of the majority and ignore these conditional statements we will surly find ourselves in a surprising situation. If we believe the conditions and warnings in scripture then we shall not find ourselves with this problem. It is the very warnings that keep us from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy.

Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Ezekiel 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

[alanmolstad]

You are writting of a whole pile of sheep that still wander off. Remember that a lost sheep is LOST.

If you ignore scripture warnings, will you be inclined to listen to a person warning you?


The Good shepherd searches for the lost sheep of the father until when?........

Until he gets tired of looking?

Until it gets late in the day?

Until it becomes clear that the sheep does not want to come back?

Until the Son starts to worry that he might get lost too?


or....

Until he finds the lost sheep, picks it up and carries it home on his own shoulders?

[alanmolstad]

I was saved by Grace....not via my own works.

Im kept saved by Grace, not via my own works...


The lost sheep never return home willingly.
If they did then there would be no need for the son to go search for them.
If its up to the sheep to return then the Son would just stand by the gate and open it when the sheep comes back on it's own.

But the lost sheep never return on their own.
That is why the good shepherd has to drop everything and go search for them...



Thus, if it were possible for Christians to lose their salvation, all would.

If a Christian were responsible for doing things so as to maintain their salvation, none would be saved.







Do you know why the Good Shepherd drops everything and goes after the lost sheep?
The reason is that the Shepherd knows that "Unless I go get him, he will never return on his own"

[Saxon]

Consider Ephesians 2:8 to 10. Ephesians 2:8 and 9 explains how we are to get into Christ. It also affirms that it is grace that saves a person through faith in Christ. There is also the fact that salvation is a gift. Verse 9 clearly states that it is not of works that we are saved in Christ. Now this is the way to get in Christ (saved) but what about when you are in Christ? Do you become like a plate of water waiting for the sweet by and by?

Ephesians 2:10 indicated that our time of work is upon us because we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Once we are in Christ Jesus we are expected to do works. This is not to save us, as it is clear that salvation has been bestowed upon us before the works are required.

My question to you is what happens if we do not do what God expects Christians to do? If you are going to be a Christian you have to do what a Christian is created to do. If a truck driver stops driving a truck, soon that person is no longer considered a truck driver. Performance has now become a factor (See John 15:1 to 10)

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
John 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
John 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

[Saxon]

Give scriptural support for any or all of your points.

[alanmolstad]

do what a Christin should do?


They once asked Christ what must we do to "work the works of God?"

The answer Christ gave them was that there is only "Thee work of God".....meaning there is only one work,,,one thing that God requires of christians.

What is that "work"???????The answer is that the only work that we are required to perform is to "believe on him whom the father has sent"





This connects with the idea that salvation is by GRACE though FAITH.



If you have that work in your life, then that is enough.

[disciple]

Consider Ephesians 2:8 to 10. Ephesians 2:8 and 9 explains how we are to get into Christ. It also affirms that it is grace that saves a person through faith in Christ. There is also the fact that salvation is a gift. Verse 9 clearly states that it is not of works that we are saved in Christ. Now this is the way to get in Christ (saved) but what about when you are in Christ? Do you become like a plate of water waiting for the sweet by and by?

Ephesians 2:10 indicated that our time of work is upon us because we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Once we are in Christ Jesus we are expected to do works. This is not to save us, as it is clear that salvation has been bestowed upon us before the works are required.

My question to you is what happens if we do not do what God expects Christians to do? If you are going to be a Christian you have to do what a Christian is created to do. If a truck driver stops driving a truck, soon that person is no longer considered a truck driver. Performance has now become a factor (See John 15:1 to 10)

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
John 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
John 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Hello Saxon
I understand the point you are making and I agree that if we are new creatures in Christ we should act like new creatures, but this does not all happen at once.
1 Peter 1:5-8 says this,"But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ." Many times the New Testament writers make a point of saying "We do not want you to be deceived brethren", and this is because obviously Christians can be deceived. Many are lulled into thinking inaction and complacency is fine, that is why we must study and encourage one another without becoming legalistic. One truck driver works 6 days a week, the other figures driving twice a month is enough. He is still a truck driver though perhaps lazy or misled. Lazy, misled or deceived Christians have not lost their salvation otherwise it was conditional based on performance. Laziness and apathy cannot chase out the Holy Spirit which dwells in each Christian but should bring about conviction and even chastisement. But sometimes professors are not possessors, who knows the heart but God. Remember John said in his epistle,"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us." Many who say this man was a Christian but has now become lost again were looking at a lost man all along.

[Saxon]

Hello Saxon
I understand the point you are making and I agree that if we are new creatures in Christ we should act like new creatures, but this does not all happen at once.
1 Peter 1:5-8 says this,"But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ."

I would like to suggest that at the point of salvation we all become ALL the Christian that we ever will become. A person is either a Christian or a sinner, there is no in-between. What the writer of Hebrews said was that we (Christians) should go on to perfection, or maturity as stated in numerous versions. (See Hebrews 6:1) In the transition to perfection we all learn and stumble and get picked up and carry on. This is normal and expected. This happens as we follow the Lord.

2 Peter 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2 Peter 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2 Peter 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2 Peter 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,



Many times the New Testament writers make a point of saying "We do not want you to be deceived brethren", and this is because obviously Christians can be deceived. Many are lulled into thinking inaction and complacency is fine, that is why we must study and encourage one another without becoming legalistic. One truck driver works 6 days a week, the other figures driving twice a month is enough. He is still a truck driver though perhaps lazy or misled. Lazy, misled or deceived Christians have not lost their salvation otherwise it was conditional based on performance. Laziness and apathy cannot chase out the Holy Spirit which dwells in each Christian but should bring about conviction and even chastisement. But sometimes professors are not possessors, who knows the heart but God. Remember John said in his epistle,"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us." Many who say this man was a Christian but has now become lost again were looking at a lost man all along.

Are you suggesting that it is legalistic to disagree with the thought of Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS)?

What does deception mean to you? You have stated that Christians can be deceived so I will ***ume that you believe that we, as Christians are open to the full onslaught of deception.

In the following definition items 1, 3 and 4 seem to fit the idea in the Christian realm. What is the point of being deceived? If we cannot fall from grace (See Galatians 5:4) why would Satan waste time deceiving Christians? It is possible to fall from grace. (See Galatians 5:4)

Deceived: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deceived
transitive verb
1 archaic: ensnare
2a obsolete: to be false to
b archaic : to fail to fulfill
3 obsolete: cheat
4: to cause to accept as true or valid what is false or invalid
5 archaic : to while away
intransitive verb
: to practice deceit; also : to give a false impression <appearances can deceive>

You have fallen short on the truck driver. Even the one that drives twice a month is still driving the truck. I am referring to the one that stops driving the truck.

As I pointed out in Ephesians 2:10 it is conditional and performance. Getting salvation from God is a gift, but being a Christian is work. We were created in Christ Jesus unto good works and God has ordained that we should walk in them. That is a condition of being a Christian, do the works God ordained for Christians to do.

1 John 2:19 is not workable to the OSAS discussion as there is no possible way to determine if the ones that walked away were or were not saved at one point in time. All it shows is that they were with them and left them. All we can do is pick an opinion that seems correct. The fact that they were with them is compelling me to think that they were saved but walked away. You are of the opinion that they were with them just checking things out and decided not to believe. All we have is opinion and opinion proves nothing.

“Many who say this man was a Christian but has now become lost again were looking at a lost man all along.” All this does for me is ask the question, who can know if they are saved or not? OSAS kills any idea that anyone can know that they are saved and this is contrary to 1 John 5:13. John says that you may know that you have eternal life.

I have a friend that was saved, and “knew” that he was saved, but now he has nothing good to say about Jesus or the Bible. You are in the same predicament if OSAS is true, you do not know if you are saved. You could be the next one that thinks you’re saved and then turn back to your old ways. All OSAS has done, in reality, is sow the seed of doubt. As long as you believe OSAS and follow it to its logical conclusion, you can never know for sure if you are saved.

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

[alanmolstad]

Once you are saved you don't have to get saved again over and over...
Once saved is enough .
You never fall....you can't lose your salvation.

For more supporting information check youtube and search for "WALTER MARTIN CAN A CHRISTIAN LOSE THEIR SALVATION?"

[Saxon]

do what a Christin should do?


They once asked Christ what must we do to "work the works of God?"

The answer Christ gave them was that there is only "Thee work of God".....meaning there is only one work,,,one thing that God requires of christians.

What is that "work"???????The answer is that the only work that we are required to perform is to "believe on him whom the father has sent"





This connects with the idea that salvation is by GRACE though FAITH.



If you have that work in your life, then that is enough.

John 6:28 is about gaining salvation, Believe on him “Christ”. Salvation is a gift. You do not seem to be able to differentiate between GETTING saved and BEING in a saved condition. One comes after the other. Get saved (a gift from God) and then live the Christian life.

Ephesians 2:8 and 9 states we are saved by grace through faith and it is a gift not works. Ephesians 2:10 states that we were created in Christ Jesus to do good works. God has ordained the works and we should walk in them (good works). Your idea that we just get saved and wait for the sweet by and by is totally false.

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

[Saxon]

Once you are saved you don't have to get saved again over and over...
Once saved is enough .
You never fall....you can't lose your salvation.

For more supporting information check youtube and search for "WALTER MARTIN CAN A CHRISTIAN LOSE THEIR SALVATION?"

Yes once saved is enough; unless you turn away from righteousness, commit iniquity or stop believing.

Show the scripture that states that you can’t lose salvation.

Ezekiel 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

[alanmolstad]

I'm on my phone right now so I can't post a video...
But I think that Walter Martin has some very wise things to say on this topic that we can watch on youtube.

If someone were thinking that they would get some value from it I would suggest that they go listen to Walter Martin teach on this topic before they form too firm of an opinion against eternal security.

[Saxon]

I'm on my phone right now so I can't post a video...
But I think that Walter Martin has some very wise things to say on this topic that we can watch on youtube.

If someone were thinking that they would get some value from it I would suggest that they go listen to Walter Martin teach on this topic before they form too firm of an opinion against eternal security.

I have been listening to Walter Martin from the mid 1970’s. I found him to be an excellent teacher and I found that I agreed with him on most of what he taught. I disagree with him on the subject of eternal security or OSAS.

I have found nothing in the scriptures that indicate OSAS let alone state anything clearly about OSAS. OSAS is not there.

[alanmolstad]

There are also some recorded debates Walter had with people that believed we need to do works to keep ourselves saved that might help a person see Walter's point.

[alanmolstad]

One of the main ways the Cults draw new members is to teach the idea that you can never know for sure you are 100% saved forever.
When you have a doubt it opens the door and allows the Cults to put the idea into your head that you need to go to them and work to maintain your salvation.

The Cult's type of salvation is an earned one...
It's wadges....it's the payoff for working to support the Cult....

[Saxon]

We do the works because we are saved. If you stop being saved, fall from grace, the works stop. You seem to have stated it in reverse.

God is constant and never changing. We on the opposite side of the fence are in constant change and never remain the same.

[Saxon]

Are you suggesting that I am in a cult? If you have read my posts you know that I do not believe in earning salvation.

[alanmolstad]

Are you suggesting that I am in a cult? If you have read my posts you know that I do not believe in earning salvation.
I believe the point Im making is the a person opens the door to the world of the CULTS by allowing uncertanty into their hearts on the matter of their eternal salbvation.
The world of the CULTS is built on telling people that "You cant be sure you are saved forever, you need to work for it, you need to stay close to the CULT to learn what you need to do to remain saved"

Its a works-based Salvation.

Its works-based because you have to maintain it via your own efforts.

Thus the concept of "Salvation" becomes a uncertanty in the heart of a person that is being swept-up into the teachings of a CULT>



I remember back to when i worked with a JW.
He was never able to tell me that he had worked enough to be 100% sure he was saved.

mormons also have this same uncertanty about their salvation.
Remember their phrase, ".....after all you can do"?


More or less all CULTS have as their foundational teaching this idea that a person "Cant be sure"
When the person is unsure they are then suduced into thinking they need to try to work to make their salvation just a little bit more likely.
This is how the CULTS gets their members to work so hard for the CULT and why they run from house to house or stand on the sidewalk with tracts , etc.
The member of the CULT does their great "works" based on their personal need to try to make their future salvation more likely.
So this is why I reject all the teachings that go against the OSAS teaching that Walter Martin talks about in the many YouTube videos.

I will share with you a few videos that show us that the Good shepherd does not return empty handed ...nor does he ever return with just the 99 sheep safe.


I believe that if good shepherd is given 100 sheep to watch over , that later when the sheep are counted by the Father there will still be the same 100 sheep he was given because - "NONE WERE LOST!"

[alanmolstad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtv_28UPOVY

[alanmolstad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJQARVBQ3cA

[alanmolstad]

and the best example of Walter Martin defending the teaching that we are saved once forever, is found at the 1:28:00 point of this debate video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gufxYe1OhWs

[disciple]

I would like to suggest that at the point of salvation we all become ALL the Christian that we ever will become. A person is either a Christian or a sinner, there is no in-between. What the writer of Hebrews said was that we (Christians) should go on to perfection, or maturity as stated in numerous versions. (See Hebrews 6:1) In the transition to perfection we all learn and stumble and get picked up and carry on. This is normal and expected. This happens as we follow the Lord.

2 Peter 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2 Peter 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2 Peter 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2 Peter 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,




Are you suggesting that it is legalistic to disagree with the thought of Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS)?

What does deception mean to you? You have stated that Christians can be deceived so I will ***ume that you believe that we, as Christians are open to the full onslaught of deception.

In the following definition items 1, 3 and 4 seem to fit the idea in the Christian realm. What is the point of being deceived? If we cannot fall from grace (See Galatians 5:4) why would Satan waste time deceiving Christians? It is possible to fall from grace. (See Galatians 5:4)

Deceived: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deceived
transitive verb
1 archaic: ensnare
2a obsolete: to be false to
b archaic : to fail to fulfill
3 obsolete: cheat
4: to cause to accept as true or valid what is false or invalid
5 archaic : to while away
intransitive verb
: to practice deceit; also : to give a false impression <appearances can deceive>

You have fallen short on the truck driver. Even the one that drives twice a month is still driving the truck. I am referring to the one that stops driving the truck.

As I pointed out in Ephesians 2:10 it is conditional and performance. Getting salvation from God is a gift, but being a Christian is work. We were created in Christ Jesus unto good works and God has ordained that we should walk in them. That is a condition of being a Christian, do the works God ordained for Christians to do.

1 John 2:19 is not workable to the OSAS discussion as there is no possible way to determine if the ones that walked away were or were not saved at one point in time. All it shows is that they were with them and left them. All we can do is pick an opinion that seems correct. The fact that they were with them is compelling me to think that they were saved but walked away. You are of the opinion that they were with them just checking things out and decided not to believe. All we have is opinion and opinion proves nothing.

“Many who say this man was a Christian but has now become lost again were looking at a lost man all along.” All this does for me is ask the question, who can know if they are saved or not? OSAS kills any idea that anyone can know that they are saved and this is contrary to 1 John 5:13. John says that you may know that you have eternal life.

I have a friend that was saved, and “knew” that he was saved, but now he has nothing good to say about Jesus or the Bible. You are in the same predicament if OSAS is true, you do not know if you are saved. You could be the next one that thinks you’re saved and then turn back to your old ways. All OSAS has done, in reality, is sow the seed of doubt. As long as you believe OSAS and follow it to its logical conclusion, you can never know for sure if you are saved.

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

“I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." John 10:28-30

Perhaps you get the impression that I think salvation is a free p*** to sin or that a little
sin once in a while is ok. I don’t believe either one but the Bible teaches that man is inherently sinful, that a sinful nature is a part of all of us, there are none who are righteous. This means that even after being saved, every single believer is going to sin from time to time. Thinking that we can live a perfect, sinless life after our salvation is not only unscriptural, but arrogant. James 2:10 tells us that whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. If we are not eternally secure, this sinning will cause us to lose our salvation, but how much sin is too much? There is no scriptural “yardstick” given to tell us how many or what kind of sins are enough to void our salvation. Without eternal security, the Bible would describe a situation where Christianity is a perpetual life in jeopardy; a life in which condemnation and salvation alternate every time we sin and confess, and we never know if we’re saved or not. Also, according to the Bible, if we could lose our salvation, then it would be lost forever, because Christ only died once. Christ’s sacrifice must be sufficient for all sins, past, present and future. The Bible clearly tells us what Christ’s moral expectations are for us. If we lost our salvation every time we fell short of those ideals, then none of us would be saved for more than a few minutes at a time. If that were true, what purpose was there in His death?

[Saxon]

“I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." John 10:28-30

You have quoted the scripture correctly. It is true that no one can snatch them out of God’s hand. It is also true that no one can separate us from the love of God. (See Romans 8:38 to 39) That does not stop God from statements such as Ezekiel 18:26, Romans 1:21 and Romans 11:20 to 21. If read as they are written they all say that you can still be lost after salvation.

No one can snatch you out of his hand but you can act in a way that you depart from the living God (See Hebrews 3:12) Romans 5:8 states that Jesus died for us while we were yet sinners. God loves us as sinners and saints. It is imposable to separate anyone from the LOVE of God. To separate a Christian from salvation is quite possible.

Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Romans 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Ezekiel 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.




Perhaps you get the impression that I think salvation is a free p*** to sin or that a little
sin once in a while is ok. I don’t believe either one but the Bible teaches that man is inherently sinful, that a sinful nature is a part of all of us, there are none who are righteous. This means that even after being saved, every single believer is going to sin from time to time. Thinking that we can live a perfect, sinless life after our salvation is not only unscriptural, but arrogant. James 2:10 tells us that whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. If we are not eternally secure, this sinning will cause us to lose our salvation, but how much sin is too much? There is no scriptural “yardstick” given to tell us how many or what kind of sins are enough to void our salvation. Without eternal security, the Bible would describe a situation where Christianity is a perpetual life in jeopardy; a life in which condemnation and salvation alternate every time we sin and confess, and we never know if we’re saved or not. Also, according to the Bible, if we could lose our salvation, then it would be lost forever, because Christ only died once. Christ’s sacrifice must be sufficient for all sins, past, present and future. The Bible clearly tells us what Christ’s moral expectations are for us. If we lost our salvation every time we fell short of those ideals, then none of us would be saved for more than a few minutes at a time. If that were true, what purpose was there in His death?

If you are to take OSAS to its logical conclusion, a saved person can sin with out penalty, ask Charles Stanley.

Yes we all sin 1John 1:8 makes that clear. Remember 1John is written to Christians and in verse 9 we, Christians, are told that If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. This is to keep us pure and sin free. The wages of sin is still death. There has not been any change to that statement in the past 2,000 years. Romans 6:23 is the yardstick! (See Romans 6:23)

You said , “Without eternal security, the Bible would describe a situation where Christianity is a perpetual life in jeopardy.” I say that without Jesus Christ, the Bible would describe a situation where Christianity is a perpetual life in jeopardy. Doctrine does not save and keep you, Jesus Christ does. There is absolutely nothing in scripture that would lead me to believe OSAS is from the Bible.

I notice that you have avoided responding to the statements that I made in the post that you responded to. Are you going address them?


1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

[alanmolstad]

I reject totally the idea that a christian can lose their salvation.

I reject even the concept of a God that would place the gift of salvation into such silly conditions.
I reject the idea that in the Kingdom there are abortions of the children of God.


The lost sheep are ALWAYS found by the the good shepherd!
The good shepherd never comes home with one missing!


Some sheep come when they are called, but a few dont come and get lost.
But the good shepherd will leave the 99 sheep and go seek the one that was lost...for the value of that lost one is greater than all the other 99 to the Shepherd.

That is why when the shepherd finds the lost sheep the shepherd will "carry" it home.
The lost sheep was not required to "return on it's own"
The good Shepherd does not just stand at the gate and call out and hope the lost sheep hears and returns on it's own.........NO!

When the lost coin is talked about, we read that the women looking for it does not stop until she finds it.
She simply keeps looking no matter how long it takes or how much work it is to search for what was lost.
In her actions to find the lost coin we have an example of what it is like when a Christian falls into sins and walks away from the Lord...
The Lord simply NEVER GIVES UP!........the LORD does not get tired,,,He does not think the time is wasted....He does not think the person is ever 'too far gone to return".......

The Lord ALWAYS saves the Christian.....always brings him to his arms.....always.

The God of Once saved, forever safe is the only God worth worshiping.



This also iswhy I bring up the idea thatif you doubt you are saved once and forever you open the door to theworld of the CULTS.

The world of the CULTS is built on the foundation that the person can "Never be sure"
The person that is trapped inside a CULT is unsure they have done enough "good works" to enter Heaven.

The CULT teaches that the person can lose their salvation as a means to keep the CULT membership from questioning their teachings.
Fear fills the heart of a person inside a CULT, fear that even a doubt about some of the CULT's teachings may be enough to lose their salvation.

For a good example of the type of teachings that I stand 100% against, I will post a link to a person who teaches CULT teachings.
It is my hope that if you right now think that you cant be 100% sure you are saved forever that you read what this CULT teacher says on the matter , and see how his false teachings do work twist fear into the heart of a person...aswell as it will drive them deeper and deeper into the world of the CULT seeking to be safer from the loss of salvation that the CULT teaches is just around the corner at all times...

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Pentecostals-2256/2011/7/pentecostal-vs-baptist-salvation.htm




I hope you can see the errors in the link's teachings....and come to have faith that God who has saved you will never-ever allow you to slip from his hands....

[alanmolstad]

and......Most importantly....


No one falls from Grace!

[Saxon]

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. Explain.

[Saxon]

I reject totally the idea that a christian can lose their salvation.

I reject even the concept of a God that would place the gift of salvation into such silly conditions.
I reject the idea that in the Kingdom there are abortions of the children of God.

As I said before, abortion is not the problem. An abortion occurs before birth takes place. The wages of sin is death and when a person sins they die, they are not aborted. Has Romans 6:23 been rescinded?

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord




The lost sheep are ALWAYS found by the the good shepherd!
The good shepherd never comes home with one missing!

Lost is lost until found.




Some sheep come when they are called, but a few dont come and get lost.
But the good shepherd will leave the 99 sheep and go seek the one that was lost...for the value of that lost one is greater than all the other 99 to the Shepherd.

That is why when the shepherd finds the lost sheep the shepherd will "carry" it home.
The lost sheep was not required to "return on it's own"
The good Shepherd does not just stand at the gate and call out and hope the lost sheep hears and returns on it's own.........NO!

This is an emotional response. The parable that you are alluding to is not how it happens every time. The sheep that are LOST are sometime eaten before they can be found, some are never found. Jesus taught reality, not some idealistic rubbish that doesn’t always happen. The scriptures say that Jesus lost Judas the son of perdition.

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.




When the lost coin is talked about, we read that the women looking for it does not stop until she finds it.
She simply keeps looking no matter how long it takes or how much work it is to search for what was lost.
In her actions to find the lost coin we have an example of what it is like when a Christian falls into sins and walks away from the Lord...
The Lord simply NEVER GIVES UP!........the LORD does not get tired,,,He does not think the time is wasted....He does not think the person is ever 'too far gone to return".......

The Lord ALWAYS saves the Christian.....always brings him to his arms.....always.

The God of Once saved, forever safe is the only God worth worshiping.

This is more emotion. The lost coins are still lost until they are found. You may have lost something that you have valued but could not find it.




This also iswhy I bring up the idea thatif you doubt you are saved once and forever you open the door to theworld of the CULTS.
Is the act of believing OSAS now a condition of salvation?? Paul and Silas said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved”. They obviously didn’t know about OSAS being a condition of salvation. (See Acts 16:30 and 31) Either scripture means what it says or it doesn’t.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

What makes you think that if I do not believe OSAS that I doubt that I am saved? I know that I am saved and am able to repent when I become aware that I am going into error. With OSAS on your side you can be dead wrong and it doesn’t seem to matter. (See Ezekiel 18:24 and 26) It matters.


The world of the CULTS is built on the foundation that the person can "Never be sure"
The person that is trapped inside a CULT is unsure they have done enough "good works" to enter Heaven.

The CULT teaches that the person can lose their salvation as a means to keep the CULT membership from questioning their teachings.
Fear fills the heart of a person inside a CULT, fear that even a doubt about some of the CULT's teachings may be enough to lose their salvation.

For a good example of the type of teachings that I stand 100% against, I will post a link to a person who teaches CULT teachings.
It is my hope that if you right now think that you cant be 100% sure you are saved forever that you read what this CULT teacher says on the matter , and see how his false teachings do work twist fear into the heart of a person...aswell as it will drive them deeper and deeper into the world of the CULT seeking to be safer from the loss of salvation that the CULT teaches is just around the corner at all times...

OSAS kills any idea that anyone can know that they are saved and this is contrary to 1 John 5:13. John says that you may know that you have eternal life.

I have a friend that was saved, and “knew” that he was saved, but now he has nothing good to say about Jesus or the Bible. You are in the same predicament if OSAS is true, you do not know if you are saved. You could be the next one that thinks you’re saved and then turn back to your old ways. All OSAS has done, in reality, is sow the seed of doubt. As long as you believe OSAS and follow it to its logical conclusion, you can never know for sure if you are saved.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.




http://en.allexperts.com/q/Pentecost...-salvation.htm

I hope you can see the errors in the link's teachings....and come to have faith that God who has saved you will never-ever allow you to slip from his hands....

Ezekiel 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his tresp*** that he hath tresp***ed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
Ezekiel 18:25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
Ezekiel 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
Ezekiel 18:27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
Ezekiel 18:28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Ezekiel is a prophet of God. Did he speak falsely?

Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Enduring to the end is a condition. Did Jesus make a false statement?

Matthew 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Matthew 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Here is a receiver of the word and then is offended (lost) Maybe Jesus stretched it a bit on this one?

Acts 13:43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

If OSAS is true, why did Paul and Barnabas have to persuade them to CONTINUE in the grace of God?

I have shown you from both Old and New Testaments that a person that is saved can still be lost if they do not continue in righteousness. There many more that will tell the same warning. Either it is correct or the Bible is not as it claims; the word of God.

I have noticed that you are not making any attempt to show me that my statements are wrong with scripture. You seem to not want to answer my questions either. Are you not willing to carry on a conversation by replying to my statements in a direct fashion? I try to answer you as directly as possible and would like you to answer me directly as well.

[Saxon]

I believe the point Im making is the a person opens the door to the world of the CULTS by allowing uncertanty into their hearts on the matter of their eternal salbvation.
The world of the CULTS is built on telling people that "You cant be sure you are saved forever, you need to work for it, you need to stay close to the CULT to learn what you need to do to remain saved"

OSAS kills any idea that anyone can know that they are saved and this is contrary to 1 John 5:13. John says that you may know that you have eternal life.

I have a friend that was saved, and “knew” that he was saved, but now he has nothing good to say about Jesus or the Bible. You are in the same predicament if OSAS is true, you do not know if you are saved. You could be the next one that thinks you’re saved and then turn back to your old ways. All OSAS has done, in reality, is sow the seed of doubt. As long as you believe OSAS and follow it to its logical conclusion, you can never know for sure if you are saved.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.




Its a works-based Salvation.

Its works-based because you have to maintain it via your own efforts.

Thus the concept of "Salvation" becomes a uncertanty in the heart of a person that is being swept-up into the teachings of a CULT>

Are you saying that if you do not believe OSAS it is a works salvation and therefore no one that believes OSAS is saved??? OSAS does not allow the believer in OSAS to know if they are saved. How many do you know that went back and were declared to have never been saved? They all thought that they were saved. YOU as a believer in OSAS do not and cannot know if you are saved. Are you in a cult??? See your last statement on the quote directly above.

Getting saved is a gift of God and no works are required. (See Ephesians 2:8 and 9) After you are saved it is a different story, works are required because we are created in Christ Jesus to do good works. (See Ephesians 2:10)

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.




I remember back to when i worked with a JW.
He was never able to tell me that he had worked enough to be 100% sure he was saved.

mormons also have this same uncertanty about their salvation.
Remember their phrase, ".....after all you can do"?


More or less all CULTS have as their foundational teaching this idea that a person "Cant be sure"
When the person is unsure they are then suduced into thinking they need to try to work to make their salvation just a little bit more likely.
This is how the CULTS gets their members to work so hard for the CULT and why they run from house to house or stand on the sidewalk with tracts , etc.
The member of the CULT does their great "works" based on their personal need to try to make their future salvation more likely.
So this is why I reject all the teachings that go against the OSAS teaching that Walter Martin talks about in the many YouTube videos.

I will share with you a few videos that show us that the Good shepherd does not return empty handed ...nor does he ever return with just the 99 sheep safe.


I believe that if good shepherd is given 100 sheep to watch over , that later when the sheep are counted by the Father there will still be the same 100 sheep he was given because - "NONE WERE LOST!"

[alanmolstad]

Totally wrong....

Once you are one of the Lord's sheep you are never anothers......never ever.....

[alanmolstad]

The justification of works is before men.


That is how you know I'm saved..
You judge me by my works.

The justification by faith is before god....

So we are saved by grace though faith...and from this we can tell if we and others are saved by works...

For works do not save nor keep us saved...but works show us if our faith is living in our lives or is dead....

[Saxon]

You haven't responded to my statements or questions, just more emotional outbursts. Show me why the scriptures that I posted do not say what they say.

[Saxon]

The point isn't if I know that you are saved, it is how do you know you are saved. there are so many that thought that they were saved but according to OSAS they were not. If you believe OSAS, how do you know you are saved?

[disciple]

The point isn't if I know that you are saved, it is how do you know you are saved. there are so many that thought that they were saved but according to OSAS they were not. If you believe OSAS, how do you know you are saved?

Hello Saxon,
Can you expound on what you have stated above, I don't understand what you mean. How could my believing in eternal security put me in a position where I don't know if I am saved?

[Saxon]

Hello Saxon,
Can you expound on what you have stated above, I don't understand what you mean. How could my believing in eternal security put me in a position where I don't know if I am saved?

OSAS kills any idea that anyone can know that they are saved and this is contrary to 1 John 5:13. John says that you may know that you have eternal life.

I have a friend that was saved, and “knew” that he was saved, but now he has nothing good to say about Jesus or the Bible. You are in the same predicament if OSAS is true, you do not know if you are saved. You could be the next one that thinks you’re saved and then turn back to your old ways. All OSAS has done, in reality, is sow the seed of doubt. As long as you believe OSAS and follow it to its logical conclusion, you can never know for sure if you are saved.

Most believers in OSAS will say that anyone that returns to their old life was never really saved to begin with.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

[disciple]

OSAS kills any idea that anyone can know that they are saved and this is contrary to 1 John 5:13. John says that you may know that you have eternal life.

I have a friend that was saved, and “knew” that he was saved, but now he has nothing good to say about Jesus or the Bible. You are in the same predicament if OSAS is true, you do not know if you are saved. You could be the next one that thinks you’re saved and then turn back to your old ways. All OSAS has done, in reality, is sow the seed of doubt. As long as you believe OSAS and follow it to its logical conclusion, you can never know for sure if you are saved.

Most believers in OSAS will say that anyone that returns to their old life was never really saved to begin with.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Saxon, you are referring to one incident regarding your friend. How does my believing in eternal security contradict 1 John 5:13?

[Saxon]

Saxon, you are referring to one incident regarding your friend. How does my believing in eternal security contradict 1 John 5:13?

I just mentioned 1 friend. There were others that I have known that were in the same condition. It is a standard answer to anyone that turns back, they were never saved in the first place. You can never know if you are saved if you follow OSAS to its logical conclusion.

The contradiction to 1 John 5:13 is that 1 John 5:13 says, without hesitation, that you may know that you have eternal life. OSAS says that anyone that turns back was never saved. How can a person that believes OSAS ever know that they are saved? You could become like my friend and many others that believed that they were saved and turn back to your old ways and OSAS says, by many that believe OSAS, that you were never saved.

[alanmolstad]

why does no one post on weekends.....and then posts during the work week when i have no time to respond?

[disciple]

I just mentioned 1 friend. There were others that I have known that were in the same condition. It is a standard answer to anyone that turns back, they were never saved in the first place. You can never know if you are saved if you follow OSAS to its logical conclusion.

The contradiction to 1 John 5:13 is that 1 John 5:13 says, without hesitation, that you may know that you have eternal life. OSAS says that anyone that turns back was never saved. How can a person that believes OSAS ever know that they are saved? You could become like my friend and many others that believed that they were saved and turn back to your old ways and OSAS says, by many that believe OSAS, that you were never saved.

Saxon, you can see that my believing that I have secure eternal life is trusting in the promise of 1 John 5:13, not contradicting it. There are only two conditions a man can be in, saved or lost. Believing in eternal security does not go against scripture but I think there are extreme views and zealous opinions without correct knowledge that confuse what is really true. If a man is born again and sealed by the Holy Spirit there is still a very high probability that he will sometimes commit sin, this does not mean that he is now lost or that he never was a true Christian, it means he has stumbled. Some stumble badly. But on the other hand, I have heard of for example, some Hollywood people leading openly sinful lives say that they are born again and seem that way for a few days but then go right back to the same lifestyle. One could reason by their actions that they were not really born again. But who really knows a man's heart but God? Salvation is a gift, one that God will not take back and that a believer cannot give back. Remember in Romans chap. 7 when Paul as a Christian said that he does the evil things he wills not to do?
Paul was admitting the struggle that every Christian goes through and I have never heard anyone make a case that Paul was saved and lost and then saved again even though he admitted nothing good dwelt in his flesh. He knew that even though he sometimes acted like a "wretched man" that he was secure in Jesus Christ.

[Saxon]

Saxon, you can see that my believing that I have secure eternal life is trusting in the promise of 1 John 5:13, not contradicting it. There are only two conditions a man can be in, saved or lost. Believing in eternal security does not go against scripture but I think there are extreme views and zealous opinions without correct knowledge that confuse what is really true. If a man is born again and sealed by the Holy Spirit there is still a very high probability that he will sometimes commit sin, this does not mean that he is now lost or that he never was a true Christian, it means he has stumbled. Some stumble badly. But on the other hand, I have heard of for example, some Hollywood people leading openly sinful lives say that they are born again and seem that way for a few days but then go right back to the same lifestyle. One could reason by their actions that they were not really born again. But who really knows a man's heart but God? Salvation is a gift, one that God will not take back and that a believer cannot give back. Remember in Romans chap. 7 when Paul as a Christian said that he does the evil things he wills not to do?

Believing that you have secure eternal life is trusting in the promise of 1 John 5:13, not contradicting it. I also believe that I have a secure position in eternal life that is in Christ Jesus. I also am not contradicting 1 John 5:13 when it states that you may know that you have eternal life. The contradiction is when you believe in OSAS and you turn back and OSAS believers say that the person was never saved even though the one that turned back knew that they were saved. This is 99% of the verdicts that I hear from OSAS people. OSAS in its logical conclusion does not allow 1 John 5:13 to be true.

Believing in eternal security in the way that you seem to is going against the scripture. There are a mul***ude of p***ages that are in direct opposition to OSAS and scripture does not contradict itself. Ezekiel 18:26, Romans 1:21, Romans 11:20 and 21 and Hebrews 3:12 are all making OSAS an impossible Bible doctrine.

There are situations that you observe Christians stumble. Stumbling is because of sin. The wages of sin is still death. Romans 6:23 has not been rescinded. The reason those that stumble, as you call it, and have continued on with a Christian life is because they repented of their sins. We are to seek forgiveness for our known sins and our unknown sins. Again the wages of sin is death.

About the “Hollywood” people, how do you know that they were never saved? They could have been saved for a time. But you do not believe that is possible. Luke 8:13 does not agree with you.

I agree with you when you say, “Salvation is a gift, one that God will not take back”. The problem is never ever God taking salvation back but the problem is us leaving it behind us and wandering off. (See Hebrews 3:12)

Paul did have a problem with his desires and was man enough to admit it. We all are in the same boat as Paul. Go over Paul’s teaching on prayer and repentance. This is how he combats this problem that could have dragged him to hell.


1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God

Ezekiel 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.



Paul was admitting the struggle that every Christian goes through and I have never heard anyone make a case that Paul was saved and lost and then saved again even though he admitted nothing good dwelt in his flesh. He knew that even though he sometimes acted like a "wretched man" that he was secure in Jesus Christ.

1 John was written to Christians along with the entire Bible. John said If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If the wages of sin is death, what happens if we ignore 1 John 1:9? Why did Paul feel secure in Jesus Christ?

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

[disciple]

Hello Saxon,
You said,"There are situations that you observe Christians stumble. Stumbling is because of sin. The wages of sin is still death. Romans 6:23 has not been rescinded. The reason those that stumble, as you call it, and have continued on with a Christian life is because they repented of their sins. We are to seek forgiveness for our known sins and our unknown sins. Again the wages of sin is death."
Remember what Romans 5:8 says," But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." As far as we are concerned, all of our sins Christ died for were in the future. Yes the wages or penalty for sin is death but for those who are born again Christ paid that penalty once and for all. Of course we are to confess our sins and agree with God that we have transgressed but that confession does not keep us saved it keeps us in fellowship. Of course we do not have a free p*** to sin and we should strive to lead holy lives. The saving and the keeping is done by God, you cannot say that He saves and then trust the keeping to man. Hebrews 12:6-8 says this,"For whom the Lord loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives. If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons." Chastening does not mean God takes away your salvation, does it? Let me give you a hypothetical situation. Let's say you, Saxon are driving down the road and a truck pulls out in front of you. In your shock and anger knowing you are going to crash you curse the other driver and take the Lord's name in vain. You crash and are killed. Do you go to hell for taking the Lord's name in vain or did Jesus pay for that sin on the cross?

[Saxon]

Hello Saxon,
You said,"There are situations that you observe Christians stumble. Stumbling is because of sin. The wages of sin is still death. Romans 6:23 has not been rescinded. The reason those that stumble, as you call it, and have continued on with a Christian life is because they repented of their sins. We are to seek forgiveness for our known sins and our unknown sins. Again the wages of sin is death."

Remember what Romans 5:8 says," But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." As far as we are concerned, all of our sins Christ died for were in the future. Yes the wages or penalty for sin is death but for those who are born again Christ paid that penalty once and for all. Of course we are to confess our sins and agree with God that we have transgressed but that confession does not keep us saved it keeps us in fellowship.

Christ did die for all our sins and at that time they were yet in the future. What sins are WE responsible for? The sins that we commit. At the point of salvation the Lord forgave us for the sins that we had committed. He did not forgive us for the sins that we would commit in the future as they were not done yet and there is no need to forgive when there is nothing to forgive.

At the time of Christ’s death he did not forgive us but made forgiveness available upon our faith in Christ and the grace of God. Again we cannot be forgiven for something that we have not yet done. When we sin again, and we will, we are now in need of forgiveness for what we have now sinned. We are obligated to repent of the sin that we have just committed and seek forgiveness. (See 1 John 1:9) You need to show me where scripture instructs us to ignore the new sins that we commit. This will have to contradict 1 John 1: and in particular verse 9.

I would also like to see a verse that states that the wages of sin is just a loss of fellowship.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.




Of course we do not have a free p*** to sin and we should strive to lead holy lives. The saving and the keeping is done by God, you cannot say that He saves and then trust the keeping to man. Hebrews 12:6-8 says this,"For whom the Lord loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives. If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons." Chastening does not mean God takes away your salvation, does it?

The logical end of OSAS is a free p*** to sin. Again you insist on beating a dead horse, God does not take away salvation. Do you read my posts??? The problem is Christians walking away from the gift of God




Let me give you a hypothetical situation. Let's say you, Saxon are driving down the road and a truck pulls out in front of you. In your shock and anger knowing you are going to crash you curse the other driver and take the Lord's name in vain. You crash and are killed. Do you go to hell for taking the Lord's name in vain or did Jesus pay for that sin on the cross?

You run a pretty tight ship when it comes to “hypothetical situations”. I will answer your hypothetical situation only after you try to answer the biblical situations that I have presented to you over my past posts to you. You just ignore them and go on to something else that makes you think the scripture that I quoted will go away or it doesn’t mean what it says or whatever you reason for ignoring it may be. I think fare is fare, you respond to my scripture quotes and my questions that I posted and then I will answer your hypothetical situation.

[disciple]

Christ did die for all our sins and at that time they were yet in the future. What sins are WE responsible for? The sins that we commit. At the point of salvation the Lord forgave us for the sins that we had committed. He did not forgive us for the sins that we would commit in the future as they were not done yet and there is no need to forgive when there is nothing to forgive.

At the time of Christ’s death he did not forgive us but made forgiveness available upon our faith in Christ and the grace of God. Again we cannot be forgiven for something that we have not yet done. When we sin again, and we will, we are now in need of forgiveness for what we have now sinned. We are obligated to repent of the sin that we have just committed and seek forgiveness. (See 1 John 1:9) You need to show me where scripture instructs us to ignore the new sins that we commit. This will have to contradict 1 John 1: and in particular verse 9.

I would also like to see a verse that states that the wages of sin is just a loss of fellowship.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.





The logical end of OSAS is a free p*** to sin. Again you insist on beating a dead horse, God does not take away salvation. Do you read my posts??? The problem is Christians walking away from the gift of God





You run a pretty tight ship when it comes to “hypothetical situations”. I will answer your hypothetical situation only after you try to answer the biblical situations that I have presented to you over my past posts to you. You just ignore them and go on to something else that makes you think the scripture that I quoted will go away or it doesn’t mean what it says or whatever you reason for ignoring it may be. I think fare is fare, you respond to my scripture quotes and my questions that I posted and then I will answer your hypothetical situation.

Hi Saxon,
I get the feeling that you think that I'm somehow against you and this is a contest that someone must win. It's a discussion, I'm not trying to convince you to change what you believe, I'm stating what I believe and the reasons for it. State your questions and I will answer them and I certainly don't ignore scripture. I am not so prideful that I believe I can't learn something.

[Saxon]

Hi Saxon,
I get the feeling that you think that I'm somehow against you and this is a contest that someone must win. It's a discussion, I'm not trying to convince you to change what you believe, I'm stating what I believe and the reasons for it. State your questions and I will answer them and I certainly don't ignore scripture. I am not so prideful that I believe I can't learn something.

I do not feel that you are against me at all. We are in a disagreement. The only “winners” are those that are in Christ Jesus. I want to discuss what we are engaged in but I am finding it to be one-sided. I believe that I am explaining to you what it is that I believe but you do not seem to want to explain why you do not agree with what I am posting in the form of Bible quotes and questions.

I too believe that I can still learn as I know for sure that I am not a know it all. I have posted why I reject OSAS from scripture, but you do not attempt to explain why I am in error about OSAS. The scripture that I have posted is just a small amount that I believe contradicts OSAS and I get no direct response to my objections. Can you help me see what is supposed to be wrong with what I am saying?

[alanmolstad]

why does no one post on weekends around here?....during the work week Im mostly onthe road and its hard to post on a phone....

[Saxon]

I will be available this weekend starting at 0000 hrs to 1000 hrs Sa****ay then 2200 hrs Sa****ay to 1000 hrs Sunday and 2200 hrs Sunday to 0800 Monday. All times are Atlantic standard. If you can keep up the pace at any of those times I will be there.

[Saxon]

I gave you the times, but you didn't show. :confused:

[Saxon]

Ok, Friday evening 1600 to 2400 Sa****ay 1000 to 2200 Sunday 1000 to 2200. All times Atlantic Standard Time. I will be waiting.