Over the Top Teaching of Mormonism!

[Apologette]

Shawn is dealing on this video with one of the most controversial teachings found in Mormonism - Father God having sex with Mary:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqHl29lqSq8

Mormonism's "god" is simply a human being on a higher level of existence. He had sex with his own spirit daughter, Mary, then living in the flesh in Nazareth, to produce a body for his first spirit baby, Jesus, who he had conceived on a planet near Kolob (which gives the sun its light) with one of the members of his female harem:

"The fleshly body of Jesus required a Mother as well as a Father. Therefore,
the Father and Mother of Jesus, according to the flesh, must have been
***ociated in the capacity of husband and wife; hence the Virgin Mary must have
been, for the time being, the lawful wife of God the Father: we use the term
lawful wife, because it would be blasphemous in the highest degree to say that
He overshadowed her or begat the Savior unlawfully........He had a lawful right
to overshadow the Virgin Mary IN THE CAPACITY OF A HUSBAND, and beget a
Son.......Whether God the Father gave Mary to Joseph for time only, or for time
and eternity, we are not informed. It may be that He only gave her to be the
wife of Joseph while in this
mortal state, and that He intended after the resurrection to again take her as
one of his own wives to raise up immortal spirits in eternity."
Apostle Orson Pratt, "The Seer," Oct. 1853, p. 158).


Brigham Young:

"When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in
his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the
Father? He is the first of the human family; and when he (Christ) took a
tabernacle, it was begotten by his Father in Heaven, AFTER THE SAME MANNER as
the tabernacles of Cain, Abel, and the rest of the sons and daughters of Adam
and Eve. Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same
character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven."
(JoD 1:50-51, also "Answers", vol. 5, p. 121).


"We are told in the scriptures that Jesus Christ is the only begotten son of
God in the flesh....how are children begotten? I answer, just as Jesus was
begotten of his Father. The Christian denominations believe that Christ was
begotten not of God, but of the spirit that overshadowed his mother. THIS IS
NONSENSE. Why will they not believe the Father when He says that Jesus Christ
is His Only Begotten Son? Why will they try to EXPLAIN THIS TRUTH AWAY and
make mystery of it?" (as quoted from Joseph F. Smith, 'Box Elder Times,' Sep.
22, 1914).

Folks, there is no doubt that the Mormons are very embarr***ed by this teaching, but I don't believe it's ever been repudiated by the Mormon leaders. Just as the teaching that dark skin is due to not being "valiant" in pre-mortal life, so this teaching still stands as a testimony to the evil of Mormonism.

[James Banta]

Shawn is dealing on this video with one of the most controversial teachings found in Mormonism - Father God having sex with Mary:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqHl29lqSq8

Mormonism's "god" is simply a human being on a higher level of existence. He had sex with his own spirit daughter, Mary, then living in the flesh in Nazareth, to produce a body for his first spirit baby, Jesus, who he had conceived on a planet near Kolob (which gives the sun its light) with one of the members of his female harem:

"The fleshly body of Jesus required a Mother as well as a Father. Therefore,
the Father and Mother of Jesus, according to the flesh, must have been
***ociated in the capacity of husband and wife; hence the Virgin Mary must have
been, for the time being, the lawful wife of God the Father: we use the term
lawful wife, because it would be blasphemous in the highest degree to say that
He overshadowed her or begat the Savior unlawfully........He had a lawful right
to overshadow the Virgin Mary IN THE CAPACITY OF A HUSBAND, and beget a
Son.......Whether God the Father gave Mary to Joseph for time only, or for time
and eternity, we are not informed. It may be that He only gave her to be the
wife of Joseph while in this
mortal state, and that He intended after the resurrection to again take her as
one of his own wives to raise up immortal spirits in eternity."
Apostle Orson Pratt, "The Seer," Oct. 1853, p. 158).


Brigham Young:

"When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in
his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the
Father? He is the first of the human family; and when he (Christ) took a
tabernacle, it was begotten by his Father in Heaven, AFTER THE SAME MANNER as
the tabernacles of Cain, Abel, and the rest of the sons and daughters of Adam
and Eve. Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same
character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven."
(JoD 1:50-51, also "Answers", vol. 5, p. 121).


"We are told in the scriptures that Jesus Christ is the only begotten son of
God in the flesh....how are children begotten? I answer, just as Jesus was
begotten of his Father. The Christian denominations believe that Christ was
begotten not of God, but of the spirit that overshadowed his mother. THIS IS
NONSENSE. Why will they not believe the Father when He says that Jesus Christ
is His Only Begotten Son? Why will they try to EXPLAIN THIS TRUTH AWAY and
make mystery of it?" (as quoted from Joseph F. Smith, 'Box Elder Times,' Sep.
22, 1914).

Folks, there is no doubt that the Mormons are very embarr***ed by this teaching, but I don't believe it's ever been repudiated by the Mormon leaders. Just as the teaching that dark skin is due to not being "valiant" in pre-mortal life, so this teaching still stands as a testimony to the evil of Mormonism.

They are so embarr***ed by this doctrine they have started the denials that it was ever taught or is the result of the doctrine of "Eternal Progression". The desire for sex was a foundational reason that temple marriage was invented.. Remember that the Kirtland temple was nothing more than what the Tabernacle is today in Salt Lake City.. It required no recommend, there were no special clothing to attend the temple. There was no sacred (secret) ordinances conducted there..

One thing the LDS here would like us to do is to do as they do and only hold them responsible for the teaching of the present president of the church.. If that is so then all we need to do is be kind to people and resist same sex marriage.. But Monson attends the temple. He holds a believe that he can become a God like the Father is God someday in the distant future. He believes that he will still be married to his wife in the Celestial kingdom. If Monson has a new doctrine as to How Jesus entered mortality or a new doctrine as to the nature of God let him bring it forward.. Until he does so, what former "Prophets, seers, and revelators" have taught remain in tact as the doctrines of mormonism.. A belief that God in a polygamist is still the doctrine of the church (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, p. 269, August 19, 1866). Since God the Father became a God, He must be a polygamist..

I don't see how they can escape from the teaching of their leadership just by saying that they are dead prophets.. After God said that He doesn't change. Either that is truth or God is a liar (Mal 3:6).. IHS jim

[Apologette]

They are so embarr***ed by this doctrine they have started the denials that it was ever taught or is the result of the doctrine of "Eternal Progression". The desire for sex was a foundational reason that temple marriage was invented.. Remember that the Kirtland temple was nothing more than what the Tabernacle is today in Salt Lake City.. It required no recommend, there were no special clothing to attend the temple. There was no sacred (secret) ordinances conducted there..

One thing the LDS here would like us to do is to do as they do and only hold them responsible for the teaching of the present president of the church.. If that is so then all we need to do is be kind to people and resist same sex marriage.. But Monson attends the temple. He holds a believe that he can become a God like the Father is God someday in the distant future. He believes that he will still be married to his wife in the Celestial kingdom. If Monson has a new doctrine as to How Jesus entered mortality or a new doctrine as to the nature of God let him bring it forward.. Until he does so, what former "Prophets, seers, and revelators" have taught remain in tact as the doctrines of mormonism.. A belief that God in a polygamist is still the doctrine of the church (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, p. 269, August 19, 1866). Since God the Father became a God, He must be a polygamist..

I don't see how they can escape from the teaching of their leadership just by saying that they are dead prophets.. After God said that He doesn't change. Either that is truth or God is a liar (Mal 3:6).. IHS jim

Joe Smith was sex-obsessed, so it's no wonder that his creation, Mormonism, should be the same.

[RealFakeHair]

Joe Smith was sex-obsessed, so it's no wonder that his creation, Mormonism, should be the same.

I believe the most cognitive dissonance situation most TBMs have to deal with is this one. I believe they just can't bring themselves to go there mentally.

[Phoenix]

I believe the most cognitive dissonance situation most TBMs have to deal with is this one. I believe they just can't bring themselves to go there mentally.

Why is it remarkable that they aren't willing to go to the specious conclusions that anti-LDS want to boss them into going to?

[RealFakeHair]

Why is it remarkable that they aren't willing to go to the specious conclusions that anti-LDS want to boss them into going to?

Ah, What? It isn't Christians fault LDSinc. Leaders believed such a thing, so take on your boss Brigham Young, and don't blame us.

[Phoenix]

Ah, What? It isn't Christians fault LDSinc. Leaders believed such a thing, so take on your boss Brigham Young, and don't blame us.

LDS leaders believed they were sex-obsessed????

You may be right about the other thing, though:

The people faulting the LDS aren't Christians.

[BigJulie]

Joe Smith was sex-obsessed, so it's no wonder that his creation, Mormonism, should be the same.

Anyone who thinks Joseph Smith was sex-obsessed, has not read the Old Testament thoroughly and for understanding. Much of what God promised had to do with procreation, having children, having seed, circumcision, being barren or not barren, etc. That promise was fulfilled in the New Testament where Christ broke the bands of death and allowed this world to be saved.

Mormonism isn't sex-obsessed, but it is does focus on God's promise of eternal families and the recognition that one of the most amazing part of God's creation is that he created man and woman and commanded them to multiply-thus his creations create.

Because of our understanding of the divine origins of procreation, Mormonism teaches that men and women must hold this ability sacred and only under the direction of God, enter into such unions where procreation can occur. That is why you will find many Mormons live by the standard of avoiding fornication, adultery, or any other behavior that lessens this divine dictate from God. Pornography is also frowned upon as well.

My own experience is that this teaching is true. Resisting the desires of the flesh takes a good dose of the Holy Ghost--but the rewards of keeping these statutes makes a marriage union a wonderful thing. My husband has only known me. I have only known my husband. Together, we have had children. And this unit is eternal--blessed by God--to be eternal forever. This really is the greatest gift. Love abounds. And we fully understand that this blessing only is because of the atonement and direction of the Savior.

[James Banta]

Anyone who thinks Joseph Smith was sex-obsessed, has not read the Old Testament thoroughly and for understanding. Much of what God promised had to do with procreation, having children, having seed, circumcision, being barren or not barren, etc. That promise was fulfilled in the New Testament where Christ broke the bands of death and allowed this world to be saved.

Mormonism isn't sex-obsessed, but it is does focus on God's promise of eternal families and the recognition that one of the most amazing part of God's creation is that he created man and woman and commanded them to multiply-thus his creations create.

Because of our understanding of the divine origins of procreation, Mormonism teaches that men and women must hold this ability sacred and only under the direction of God, enter into such unions where procreation can occur. That is why you will find many Mormons live by the standard of avoiding fornication, adultery, or any other behavior that lessens this divine dictate from God. Pornography is also frowned upon as well.

My own experience is that this teaching is true. Resisting the desires of the flesh takes a good dose of the Holy Ghost--but the rewards of keeping these statutes makes a marriage union a wonderful thing. My husband has only known me. I have only known my husband. Together, we have had children. And this unit is eternal--blessed by God--to be eternal forever. This really is the greatest gift. Love abounds. And we fully understand that this blessing only is because of the atonement and direction of the Savior.

Look at the admission of FAIR at http://en.fairmormon.org/Utah/Statistical_claims/Pornography_use_in_Utah. Pay close attention to their excuses for why it is true that Utah is #1 on the use of online porn. I would love seeing you justify Porn use in Utah and agree with FAIR that it is because of State Government's tight hold on moral issues.. It isn't because they are sinners like the rest of the world is it? NO, God forbid! IHS jim

[BigJulie]

Look at the admission of FAIR at http://en.fairmormon.org/Utah/Statistical_claims/Pornography_use_in_Utah. Pay close attention to their excuses for why it is true that Utah is #1 on the use of online porn. I would love seeing you justify Porn use in Utah and agree with FAIR that it is because of State Government's tight hold on moral issues.. It isn't because they are sinners like the rest of the world is it? NO, God forbid! IHS jim

Oh how funny---don't you live in Utah James?

I didn't say that Mormons were perfect. I explained our beliefs. I see many good men who resist pornography. (I looked at the site, yes--they describe the statistics ---but it appears that it isn't that they lead the porn industry---rather those who use porn don't do so openly. Not surprising. Pornography is a tenacious evil.)

Amazing how quickly you point the finger James, when I merely explained our doctrines and why pornography is frowned on. But, I know, you really don't want to talk about this subject---right? As you live in Utah---and we could see how you fit into these stats.

[James Banta]

Oh how funny---don't you live in Utah James?

I didn't say that Mormons were perfect. I explained our beliefs. I see many good men who resist pornography. (I looked at the site, yes--they describe the statistics ---but it appears that it isn't that they lead the porn industry---rather those who use porn don't do so openly. Not surprising. Pornography is a tenacious evil.)

Amazing how quickly you point the finger James, when I merely explained our doctrines and why pornography is frowned on. But, I know, you really don't want to talk about this subject---right? As you live in Utah---and we could see how you fit into these stats.

I sinned, I committed adultery. I was never into porn.. Since I have confessed that sin to God, before the Church and even to the world it has not been part of my life.. You don't seem to believe that a man can be forgiven of sin. I DO.. Jesus died to cleanse me of sin and I have been made clean in His blood. I have seen many an LDS man make the same mistake in their lives, can they be forgiven? If they can why can't I? You are working as the accuser of the brethren here. Denying that Jesus has the power to forgive sin that is confessed and forsaken. You are standing in the place of Satan.. In even holding this sin against me you show the evil in your own heart! I believe coming here with this bitterness in your heart is the main reason you came back to WM..

Did Smith confess his sexual conquests to the church? NO, Did he admit that even when polygamy was defined as adultery by the LDS church (1837 D&C Section 101:3-5) that he was involved in that sin? NO! He died in that sin.. Today Utah leads the entire nation in the use of internet porn.. Utah is predominately LDS. Therefore the predominate users of that filth are LDS.. This has been going on for years. I expect it will continue.. FAIR didn't deny the facts, it tried to excuse them because porn has been denied open use by the legislature. And why is porn such a problem in Utah? Because the heart of man is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked.. That flesh must be put to death and we must have a new birth, a spiritual birth that is 100% free of sin and lives for God.. But that is Biblical and I would imagine you deny that truth even though it is clearly addressed in the Bible (Romans 7:20).. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

I sinned, I committed adultery. I was never into porn.. Since I have confessed that sin to God, before the Church and even to the world it has not been part of my life.. You don't seem to believe that a man can be forgiven of sin. I DO.. Jesus died to cleanse me of sin and I have been made clean in His blood. I have seen many an LDS man make the same mistake in their lives, can they be forgiven? If they can why can't I? You are working as the accuser of the brethren here. Denying that Jesus has the power to forgive sin that is confessed and forsaken. You are standing in the place of Satan.. In even holding this sin against me you show the evil in your own heart! I believe coming here with this bitterness in your heart is the main reason you came back to WM..

Did Smith confess his sexual conquests to the church? NO, Did he admit that even when polygamy was defined as adultery by the LDS church (1837 D&C Section 101:3-5) that he was involved in that sin? NO! He died in that sin.. Today Utah leads the entire nation in the use of internet porn.. Utah is predominately LDS. Therefore the predominate users of that filth are LDS.. This has been going on for years. I expect it will continue.. FAIR didn't deny the facts, it tried to excuse them because porn has been denied open use by the legislature. And why is porn such a problem in Utah? Because the heart of man is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked.. That flesh must be put to death and we must have a new birth, a spiritual birth that is 100% free of sin and lives for God.. But that is Biblical and I would imagine you deny that truth even though it is clearly addressed in the Bible (Romans 7:20).. IHS jim

So, you have never looked at any pornography? On the Internet or elsewhere? Wow, James--truly impressive.

(BTW, James, I have said repeatedly I believe God can forgive the sin of adultery...I am not sure why you can't accept this. I guess this is a type of projection again....as how could you ***ume that of others, if it is not in your own thoughts?)

[James Banta]

[BigJulie;154927]So, you have never looked at any pornography? On the Internet or elsewhere? Wow, James--truly impressive.

I didn't say that I have never seen it.. But pictures have never held much interest for me.. I have then seen it but really never looked at it, can you understand that.. To Me and the world my sin was far worse.. I had a real person whom I hurt as well as my wife.. This wasn't just a sin of thought it was a sin of flesh.. Maybe being a woman you can't undrstand the full gravity between looking with lust and acting in lust.. To Me and the world my sin was far worse than mere looking..


(BTW, James, I have said repeatedly I believe God can forgive the sin of adultery...I am not sure why you can't accept this. I guess this is a type of projection again....as how could you ***ume that of others, if it is not in your own thoughts?)

I have accepted God's forgiveness. I have accepted my wife's forgiveness. The subject, through not taboo, has not been discussed since I was forgiven. You seem to like pointing to it so I can see that you find it to be a sin that you really can't forgive, even when it never touched you.. I didn't bring up the subject it was again brought up in your words.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

The people faulting the LDS aren't Christians.
So people who point out the false teachings of mormonism aren't Christian? Is that what you are really saying?

[James Banta]

[Phoenix;154845]LDS leaders believed they were sex-obsessed????

Does a rapist believe they are evil? Do they believe they are over sexed? I doubt it.. Just because they don't believe that of themselves doesn't mean they are right.. Believing LDS leaders believe that they will continue to have increase in heaven with not one but many wives. The only LDS leaders who have commented on how this is done are Young and McConkie. Both of them in specking to How Jesus was conceived into this world said it was done in the natural way. Why would God have done it differently to have Spirit offspring with His wives in heaven?


The people faulting the LDS aren't Christians.

Then are the LDS christian in their attacks on the Christian churches? We have not added attcks against you to our canon of scripture. Your attacks against us hold predominate place in your scripture.. Believeing that the LDS church is the Church of the lamb of God any other church is ***igned to being the church of the devil (1 Nephi 14:10). if that was the only place such an attack was made we might not hold it against you but LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie stated:"If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." (Mormon Doctrine, 1979, p. 670) and Joseph Smith put these words in the mouth of his Jesus "they were all wrong; all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt " (JSH 19).. Then in Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith the faith of the Christian Church is called foolish traditions and nonsensical teachings..

But I guess because you are LDS the NASTY **** your leaders have to say about my faith isn't as bad as what we say about yours. We find real fault with Mormonism and show how it is wrong by the scriptures. And your leaders use generalities calling our faith foolish, nonsensical, and Godless.. You dear one are throwing stones from inside your gl*** house.. IHS jim

[Phoenix]

So people who point out the false teachings of mormonism aren't Christian? Is that what you are really saying?

No, I failed to correctly read realfakehair's post.

Apologette ***erted that "Joe Smith was sex-obsessed."

realfakehair replied "I believe the most cognitive dissonance situation most TBMs have to deal with is this one. I believe they just can't bring themselves to go there mentally."

I replied "Why is it remarkable that they aren't willing to go to the specious conclusions that anti-LDS want to boss them into going to?"

Then realfakehair replied "Ah, What? It isn't Christians fault LDSinc. Leaders believed such a thing, so take on your boss Brigham Young, and don't blame us."

What realfakehair meant to say was that it's not the fault of Christians that LDS leaders believed that Joseph Smith was sex-obsessed, and Brigham Young is actually the person to blame for that belief.

I disagree with that conclusion. I challenge the claim that LDS leaders believe that Joseph Smith was sex-obsessed.

[RealFakeHair]

Phoenix, do you believe none-LDSinc. People conspired to spread false rumors about Joseph Smith jr. Adultery?

[James Banta]

Phoenix, do you believe none-LDSinc. People conspired to spread false rumors about Joseph Smith jr. Adultery?

Yeah, like non-LDS like Oliver Cowdry who was so non that he was able to have section 101 of the 1837 D&C added to combat the sin of polygamy.. He added that because there was no problem with polygamy in the LDS church with that sin in that era, right? Don't make me laugh.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

I challenge the claim that LDS leaders believe that Joseph Smith was sex-obsessed.
Here is what Oliver Cowdery said about Joseph's relationship with Fanny Alger. You would consider Oliver Cowdery as a LDS leader--wouldn't you?

". . .Book of Mormon witness, Oliver Cowdery, felt the relationship was something other than a marriage. He referred to it as “A dirty, nasty, filthy affair...”

[James Banta]

Here is what Oliver Cowdery said about Joseph's relationship with Fanny Alger. You would consider Oliver Cowdery as a LDS leader--wouldn't you?

". . .Book of Mormon witness, Oliver Cowdery, felt the relationship was something other than a marriage. He referred to it as “A dirty, nasty, filthy affair...”

If Smith's womanizing would have stopped at Fanny Alger I would have said he made a mistake and forgotten about any charge of sexual obsession but it didn't stop.. In fact it went on to married women.. I have evidence that Smith was alone in a bedroom with two different women.

...on the 15th of May, some three weeks later, the Prophet again came and at my house occupied the same room and bed with my sister, that the month previous he had occupied with the daughter of the late Bishop Partridge, as his wife." (Benjamin F. Johnson, Letter to George S. Gibbs, 1903, cited in E. Dale LeBaron, "Benjamin Franklin Johnson: Colonizer, Public Servant, and Church Leader" (M.A. thesis, Brigham Young University, 1967)

While this is not absolute proof it is the testimony of a member of the LDS church who thought it was fine that Joseph Smith share the same room and bed with a woman other than Emma.. With the statement of Oliver Cowdery who you confirmed called Smith activities with Fanny as a dirty, nasty, filthy affair, it is clear that Smith did have sexual relations with some if not all his polygamous wives.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

If Smith's womanizing would have stopped at Fanny Alger I would have said he made a mistake and forgotten about any charge of sexual obsession but it didn't stop.. In fact it went on to married women.. I have evidence that Smith was alone in a bedroom with two different women.

...on the 15th of May, some three weeks later, the Prophet again came and at my house occupied the same room and bed with my sister, that the month previous he had occupied with the daughter of the late Bishop Partridge, as his wife." (Benjamin F. Johnson, Letter to George S. Gibbs, 1903, cited in E. Dale LeBaron, "Benjamin Franklin Johnson: Colonizer, Public Servant, and Church Leader" (M.A. thesis, Brigham Young University, 1967)

While this is not absolute proof it is the testimony of a member of the LDS church who thought it was fine that Joseph Smith share the same room and bed with a woman other than Emma.. With the statement of Oliver Cowdery who you confirmed called Smith activities with Fanny as a dirty, nasty, filthy affair, it is clear that Smith did have sexual relations with some if not all his polygamous wives.. IHS jim

yes, this is why when people read some of the things I have posted here and come back to me and ask, "Do you truly believe that all the Mormons are about, is sex?" my answer is, "yes, from the start of their religion, and going on to this very day the Mormons are just a religion that is actively promoting adultery.

Adultery in it's members over history.

Adultery in its own memory of its founder.

When you look at the temples, their reason for being built, the way the Mormon defenders twist when confronted with the facts about Smith's many younger and underage sexual conquests, you cant come to any other conclusion other than the Mormons are just about sex, sex, and more sex

[Phoenix]

Here is what Oliver Cowdery said about Joseph's relationship with Fanny Alger. You would consider Oliver Cowdery as a LDS leader--wouldn't you?
During the period when he made the statement you're about to quote? No. I wouldn't consider him a leader at the time.

[Phoenix]

yes, this is why when people read some of the things I have posted here and come back to me and ask, "Do you truly believe that all the Mormons are about, is sex?" my answer is, "yes, from the start of their religion, and going on to this very day the Mormons are just a religion that is actively promoting adultery.

Adultery in it's members over history.

Adultery in its own memory of its founder.

When you look at the temples, their reason for being built, the way the Mormon defenders twist when confronted with the facts about Smith's many younger and underage sexual conquests, you cant come to any other conclusion other than the Mormons are just about sex, sex, and more sex

You do realize that baptism for the dead is one of more predominately done temple ordinances, right?

[Billyray]

During the period when he made the statement you're about to quote? No. I wouldn't consider him a leader at the time.

So do you believe what Oliver said or do you distrust his statement?

[Billyray]

You do realize that baptism for the dead is one of more predominately done temple ordinances, right?
Can you show me where the NT church set up a NT temple?

[James Banta]

You do realize that baptism for the dead is one of more predominately done temple ordinances, right?

Thank you Phoenix for proving in your own words that LDS temple are built primarily to service the dead.. Millions of dollars spent on doing ordinances for the dead when it is the living that needs help.. But again less that 1% of LDS income is spent on aid for the living while each temple costs in excess of 25 Million Dollars.. Still a person must be baptized by LDS authority to make them worth of "Eternal increase" and according to LDS authority as late as the 1970s, God the Father is taught to be a sexual Being.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

During the period when he made the statement you're about to quote? No. I wouldn't consider him a leader at the time.

At that time he was FIRST APOSTLE of the LDS church.. Isn't that a leader of the church. Isn't the President of the quorum of the 12 Apostles today such? How did a section of the D&C He wrote make it into that book of LDS scripture is he wasn't an authority.. I just love LDS revisionist history.. I'll bet that before long it will turn out to be taught that it was Emma Smith's idea for Polygamy to be so important in early mormonism.. IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

Can you show me where the NT church set up a NT temple?

Once again a question that can't be answered by the LDSinc.

[Phoenix]

Thank you Phoenix for proving in your own words that LDS temple are built primarily to service the dead..
Yes, they spend millions of dollars of their own money, and millions of hours of their own time, in ministry and service to others.

I think Jesus taught that's a good thing....

[Phoenix]

At that time he was FIRST APOSTLE of the LDS church..
In order to test the truth of your claims, we will need you to state the YEAR that he made the statement you quoted. Here is your quote again:

". . .Book of Mormon witness, Oliver Cowdery, felt the relationship was something other than a marriage. He referred to it as “A dirty, nasty, filthy affair...”

What YEAR did he make that claim?

Thanks for providing this in your next post.

[RealFakeHair]

In order to test the truth of your claims, we will need you to state the YEAR that he made the statement you quoted. Here is your quote again:

". . .Book of Mormon witness, Oliver Cowdery, felt the relationship was something other than a marriage. He referred to it as “A dirty, nasty, filthy affair...”

What YEAR did he make that claim?

Thanks for providing this in your next post.

you're concerned about the year, and not the act?

[alanmolstad]

you're concerned about the year, and not the act?

they were on a break?

[RealFakeHair]

they were on a break?

I am glad it is a nice day, I can go out and hit some golf *****, and not ponder on this one.

[Libby]

you're concerned about the year, and not the act?

It is believed that Joseph and Fanny were already married, when the accusation was made.

[alanmolstad]

It is believed that Joseph and Fanny were already married, when the accusation was made.
was it a big wedding of her dreams?....with flowers, bridesmaids, and a big reception followed by a honeymoon?

[Phoenix]

you're concerned about the year, and not the act?

I am trying to find out how credible Jim's ***ertion is---that "At that time he was FIRST APOSTLE of the LDS church." Do you think he will help me find out?

[RealFakeHair]

I am trying to find out how credible Jim's ***ertion is---that "At that time he was FIRST APOSTLE of the LDS church." Do you think he will help me find out?

Okay, but what has that got to do with the cost of tea in China?
I will try and find a time line.

[RealFakeHair]

I am trying to find out how credible Jim's ***ertion is---that "At that time he was FIRST APOSTLE of the LDS church." Do you think he will help me find out?
While searching... I came across this........EXCOMMUNICATION OF OLIVER COWDERY
Source: HC 3:16-17.

Wednesday, April 11,[1838]--Elder Seymour Brunson preferred the following charges against Oliver Cowdery, to the High Council at Far West:

To the Bishop and Council of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I prefer the following charges against President Oliver Cowdery.

"First--For persecuting the brethren by urging on vexatious law suits against them, and thus distressing the innocent.

"Second--For seeking to destroy the character of President Joseph Smith, Jun., by falsely insinuating that he was guilty of adulte


Even at his excommunication Joseph Smith jr. is protected as he is today.

[alanmolstad]

i dont really know what any of that stuff means, nor what difference the date of stuff happens at?...

But just from what I see above it would seem that the one guy was getting kicked out for saying that Smith was banging some other girl besides his wife.

[RealFakeHair]

i dont really know what any of that stuff means, nor what difference the date of stuff happens at?...

But just from what I see above it would seem that the one guy was getting kicked out for saying that Smith was banging some other girl besides his wife.

All we have to do is look back at how the Democrats protected Bill Clinton after Monica Lewinsky, escapade.
Remember, after all it wasn't really sex!
With Joseph Smith jr. he couldn't help it, the mormon god told him to do it.
Both excuse are a disgrace!