Mormonism is claiming they have set aside their Bigotry

[James Banta]

It is true that many a Christian church held that the black race were inferior the white race.. Since that time churches like the Southern Baptists have apologized for their history of bigotry and hate. Mormonism too have apologized for their bigotry and hate.. But what is this? Mormonism have their racism actually embedded into their scripture? Stating that priesthood was denied to a man because he was the offspring of Ham who is taught by an LDS apostles to have had a wife who was black. The Bible says that Noah curse his son for seeing Him naked. That curse was upon Him not His sons.. Yes Ham settled in the land of Egypt. Did that make him black or his wife black? Remember Ham settled in Egypt AFTER the flood. Before that where was he? All the Bible said is that he lived on the earth.. The land of Egypt was named after Ham's wife but was a dark skin part of some imagined curse or was it a variation God gave a people that lived in a part of the world where a dark skin would be a protection from the sun? But it is STILL a teaching of mormonism that a dark skin is a curse (BofA 1:26-27, 2 Nephi 5:21)

In this teaching mormonism continues their insistence that being Black is Ugly, that it is a curse, that those who are "cursed with a skin of darkness" are less worthy, an idle people, full of mischief and subtlety. Isn't that a prejudices? Isn't that the meaning of bigotry? And there it is written into a book that the LDS church calls the word of God!!! Today the NBA has denied a man the right to direct his own property (the LA Clippers) because he used racially bigoted language. How much more serious is it to use the racially charged language we find in the books mormonism calls scripture.. Are those we see today with a "skin of blackness" somehow less important to God or worthy of these prejudgments because of the color of their skin? God doesn't see it as any hindrance at all. The very first gentile recorded as being called into the Church was an Ethiopian Eunuch.. He didn't just hear the words of life but God by miraculous means brought Philip to him so God's words of life could be explained to him.. Why was he so important? I have no idea, but maybe it was to show up the bigotry and hatred that the black race would face in the years to come.. Maybe even to disprove the bigotry and hatred of Indians and Blacks that is still alive within mormonism.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

It is true that many a Christian church held that the black race were inferior the white race.. Since that time churches like the Southern Baptists have apologized for their history of bigotry and hate. Mormonism too have apologized for their bigotry and hate.. But what is this? Mormonism have their racism actually embedded into their scripture? Stating that priesthood was denied to a man because he was the offspring of Ham who is taught by an LDS apostles to have had a wife who was black. The Bible says that Noah curse his son for seeing Him naked. That curse was upon Him not His sons.. Yes Ham settled in the land of Egypt. Did that make him black or his wife black? Remember Ham settled in Egypt AFTER the flood. Before that where was he? All the Bible said is that he lived on the earth.. The land of Egypt was named after Ham's wife but was a dark skin part of some imagined curse or was it a variation God gave a people that lived in a part of the world where a dark skin would be a protection from the sun? But it is STILL a teaching of mormonism that a dark skin is a curse (BofA 1:26-27, 2 Nephi 5:21)

In this teaching mormonism continues their insistence that being Black is Ugly, that it is a curse, that those who are "cursed with a skin of darkness" are less worthy, an idle people, full of mischief and subtlety. Isn't that a prejudices? Isn't that the meaning of bigotry? And there it is written into a book that the LDS church calls the word of God!!! Today the NBA has denied a man the right to direct his own property (the LA Clippers) because he used racially bigoted language. How much more serious is it to use the racially charged language we find in the books mormonism calls scripture.. Are those we see today with a "skin of blackness" somehow less important to God or worthy of these prejudgments because of the color of their skin? God doesn't see it as any hindrance at all. The very first gentile recorded as being called into the Church was an Ethiopian Eunuch.. He didn't just hear the words of life but God by miraculous means brought Philip to him so God's words of life could be explained to him.. Why was he so important? I have no idea, but maybe it was to show up the bigotry and hatred that the black race would face in the years to come.. Maybe even to disprove the bigotry and hatred of Indians and Blacks that is still alive within mormonism.. IHS jim
Once again James---your post is basically half-truths and flat out falsehoods. I feel for you in the hereafter. If there was one thing that Christ was clear about is that he was repulsed by this type of behavior when he saw it.

[James Banta]

Once again James---your post is basically half-truths and flat out falsehoods. I feel for you in the hereafter. If there was one thing that Christ was clear about is that he was repulsed by this type of behavior when he saw it.

There were no half truth in what I said. There are no lies in saying that these comments are embedded in LDS scripture! I said that the LDS church has come out and apologized for it's exclusionary actions of the past. I salute them in doing so. I agree with you that Jesus is repulsed by racism.. But within the LDS church racism still exists. Not in their actions, so much anymore, but in their beliefs, their SCRIPTURES it still exists. How terrible is that? By calling the BofM the word of God, mormonism puts this terrible racism into the mouth of God!!! That racist behavior that is still displayed in the LDS church clearly visible in it's SCRIPTURE. I find that appalling, don't you? I can't believe that you agree with such statements. I don't believe for a second that you too are as racist as a church that would teach such horrible doctrines.. If I were to stand to deliver the same message that exists in LDS scripture in Fast and Testimony meeting the entire congregation would be so appalled I would be stopped and most likely ejected from the meeting.. And yet right in the LDS scripture it is taught that a skin of blackness is a curse placed of a people because of their sin!! THAT IS APPALLING! And Julie it is still in the BofM, it is still in the Book of Abraham!!!!! It is totally racist, it isn't of God it is the evil thoughts of men. It is divisionist. This one statement proves that the BofM and the BofA are false. It alone proves that the LDS church is not God's church but the instead it is the Great and abominable church of the Devil.. The BofM has been changed many times.. Over 3,000 times in fact. Why not take this GREAT SIN out of it, apologize for that continued sin and admit that much of the whole book was made up in the fertile mind of Joseph Smith.. Then realizing that Smith was a charlatan and move your church to a more Biblical doctrine that is inclusive of all peoples. One that teaches Jesus and salvation by God's grace though faith in Him.. It is clear that mormonism hasn't abandoned it's raciest past. One important step in the process of repentance taught by mormonism is to forsake the sin. Has mormonism forsaken the sin of racism? I have just shown that mormonism has kept their hateful racist statement IN THEIR SCRIPTURE. I can't believe that any thinking person could judge anyone because of the color of their skin, for good or for evil. And yet mormonism teaches just that in their scripture.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

Julie I agree.. The racist behavior that is still displayed in the LDS church clearly visible in their SCRIPTURE is appalling.

Well, I was speaking of your behavior James. ;)

Oh, and don't forget, I am married to someone of mixed race. So, obviously, I did not take away from our scriptures what you do. I guess that speaks to your own bigotry when you read something and perceive it to mean what you do.

But in all honesty, yes the church, like the rest of the world was racist. Interestingly, though, Joseph Smith was not. So sad you do not take the apology as real. I do.

[neverending]

Well, I was speaking of your behavior James. ;)

Oh, and don't forget, I am married to someone of mixed race. So, obviously, I did not take away from our scriptures what you do. I guess that speaks to your own bigotry when you read something and perceive it to mean what you do.

But in all honesty, yes the church, like the rest of the world was racist. Interestingly, though, Joseph Smith was not. So sad you do not take the apology as real. I do.

I see you can't forget the past can you? I've not been on here for several months but had to come back because of your comment. You want to close a blind eye as to what was taught by your church all due to JS, and don't find it wrong that these areas are still within your Standard Works, then you are allowing the racism and bigotry to continue. Why haven't these areas that offend blacks not been removed totally from those books? If you continue with your belief in Mormonism, then you believe and accept these teachings. Do some serious thinking Julie.

[James Banta]

[BigJulie;155753]Well, I was speaking of your behavior James. ;)

Hey you want to compare this to my adultery, Ok lets do it.. If I continued to even look at dirty pictures, or talk to women in sexual ways, even if I didn't have personal sexual contact with them would you doubt my repentance? I WOULD! That is what mormonism is doing with racism. The give lip service to it's abandonment while still hold onto it in their scripture.. Do you really believe God ever used race as a punishment for sin.. How could a loving God hold a dark skin as a punishment for sin? Is that really the God you believe in?


Oh, and don't forget, I am married to someone of mixed race. So, obviously, I did not take away from our scriptures what you do. I guess that speaks to your own bigotry when you read something and perceive it to mean what you do.

But in all honesty, yes the church, like the rest of the world was racist. Interestingly, though, Joseph Smith was not. So sad you do not take the apology as real. I do.

Joseph Smith wrote the BofM and the BofA. As I said God would NEVER teach that a skin of Blackness is a punishment for evil, or be a sign to deny a person all the blessings of His Church. Joseph Smith, because of those facts was a bigoted as any white man of his day. If by condemning bigotry I reveal bigotry within me? I will continue then to be bigoted all my days.. I hold that not specking against a wrong make a person guilty of that wrong. It looks like you believe that speaking against a wrong makes a person guilty of that wrong. You make no sense!

Just where is my behavior bad in saying what I have in this post? You don't think that showing the deep seeded sin of mormonism is evil do you? Is it fine in your eyes to say that people have a dark skin because they have sin in their lives? If you have spoken of being married to a man of mixed race I missed it.. I was not aware of that and I say to that "SO WHAT". It would appear that the points I have made against the LDS church's racism through their scripture would make you think harder about the truth of mormonism. Your deep feeling for the truth of the church should certainly be rocked to make the realization that racism still exists in the scripture mormonism calls the word of God.. It is hard to bring anything out of the BofM other than what it teaches It says "And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a Skin of Blackness to come upon them. And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be oathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities. And cursed shall be the seed of him that with their seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it, and it was done." Look Julie you say that you are married to a man of mixed race.. The p***age also condemns you! That is the word of God? HARDLY!! That is nothing but EVIL.. If you accept these things as scripture and I don't believe that you do, you would be as evil as the LDS church is in it's ****able scriptures.

I guess you didn't read my entire post before you judged it.. I says this "Mormonism too have apologized for their bigotry and hate." I acknowledged the LDS church's repentance for their bigotry. What I am pointing out is their lack of forsakement of the sin of racism..

I can show you who the "prophet" addressed in teaching who and who may not hold the LDS priesthood. Where The sections of the D&C make it clear that it is God speaking this change begins "To Whom It May Concern" (Official Declaration 2). Even to Joseph F. Smith in section 138 he clearly states that He received his vision through the blessing of the Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Isn't it strange that in the Official Declaration 2 that Jesus isn't even mentioned? And I should believe that mormonism has abandon racism? I can't! I can't hear a word they are saying as their actions are screaming into my ears.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

Hey you want to compare this to my adultery, Ok lets do it..

Your wife seemed so hurt by this last time we discussed it, I am surprised you keep bringing it up.

[RealFakeHair]

Well, I was speaking of your behavior James. ;)

Oh, and don't forget, I am married to someone of mixed race. So, obviously, I did not take away from our scriptures what you do. I guess that speaks to your own bigotry when you read something and perceive it to mean what you do.

But in all honesty, yes the church, like the rest of the world was racist. Interestingly, though, Joseph Smith was not. So sad you do not take the apology as real. I do.

Well at least your other half will be white and delightsome one day.

[BigJulie]

Well at least your other half will be white and delightsome one day.

He already is---as the term refers to purity.


Mat 28:3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:


Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

If you saw the connection, you would be accusing Joseph Smith of plagiarizing the idea from the Bible. ;)

[RealFakeHair]

He already is---as the term refers to purity.


Mat 28:3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:


Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

If you saw the connection, you would be accusing Joseph Smith of plagiarizing the idea from the Bible. ;)

That aint the way the early LDSinc. read into it. it was bout turning the red skins into white skins, and you know it!

[BigJulie]

That aint the way the early LDSinc. read into it. it was bout turning the red skins into white skins, and you know it!

Such as Peter mistaking what Christ meant when he said "Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep."

(Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.)

So, to you, if an apostle or a prophet doesn't understand what God teaches immediately or misunderstands, he is a false prophet. I don't agree. As we can see from the scriptures otherwise.

[alanmolstad]

the truth is that Apostle guys can be wrong, the reason is that they do not "speak" for god...Paul himself knew this and warned us about how we should act around him if he starts teaching something else.
this is why when a guy says he is an Apostle and has something to tell us, we have to take what they say and put it to the test of Scripture.

Prophets on the other hand dont get to be wrong ...ever...
They actually do speak for God.

one error and a prophet is officially a "False Prophet" and should be put to death...or made to stand in a long line at walmart...

[BigJulie]

the truth is that Apostle guys can be wrong, the reason is that they do not "speak" for god...Paul himself knew this and warned us about how we should act around him if he starts teaching something else.
this is why when a guy says he is an Apostle and has something to tell us, we have to take what they say and put it to the test of Scripture. Circular argument because your "scripture" includes the writing of the apostle Paul.

[James Banta]

Your wife seemed so hurt by this last time we discussed it, I am surprised you keep bringing it up.

You were the one that is keeping it going. You said, "Well, I was speaking of your behavior James. ;)".. What else of my behavior could you possible be attacking? Though keep trying to tell everyone that I use half truth or down right lies you haven't shown any instance that I have done so.. As I read a p***age either from the Bible of one of the LDS books of scripture, I take it at it's face value. Word have meaning and I use the literal meaning given in a p***age as it's interpretation. I don't try to figure out what it means under the surface. In that I see no use of half truths or out right lies.. BUT if you have a different meaning for Skin of blackness other than a person having an abundance of melanin in their skin I would like to know what that is.. The p***age teaches that it was a mark of a curse God laid on the Lamanites.

I compared my sin and the LDS church's bigotry, That Bigotry can still be seen in the scriptures of the LDS church. My sin has been totally forsaken..Again isn't forsaking a sin an important step in the process of LDS repentance? yet there is is still big as life, part of the scriptures of the LDS church. Sounds like by the inaction of the LDS to remove their bigoted beliefs that a dark skin is still the sign of sin in a people. Since the LDS hold the BofM to be God's truth, they must still hold that that bigotry is God's truth.. Your attempt to change that subject is noted.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Circular argument because your "scripture" includes the writing of the apostle Paul.

Paul warned us to not just trust even his own words without putting all he said to the test of scripture.
If it is in agreement, we have no issues with it.
If the new message is different?...reject it...

That is what Paul said to do....and so that is all i can do...

[alanmolstad]

the truth is that Apostle guys can be wrong, the reason is that they do not "speak" for god...Paul himself knew this and warned us about how we should act around him if he starts teaching something else.
this is why when a guy says he is an Apostle and has something to tell us, we have to take what they say and put it to the test of Scripture.

Prophets on the other hand dont get to be wrong ...ever...
They actually do speak for God.

one error and a prophet is officially a "False Prophet" and should be put to death...or made to stand in a long line at walmart...

This above is very important to keep in mind when people knock on our doors with a "message"
we are told to put their "message" to the test.

no matter who the person might claim to be, or where he might claim to have received his message from....
It does not matter, we still always test it by the bible

[James Banta]

He already is---as the term refers to purity.


Mat 28:3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:


Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

If you saw the connection, you would be accusing Joseph Smith of plagiarizing the idea from the Bible. ;)

Nope, Not one of them referred to a believer becoming white and delightsome. If you believe that The LDS scriptures I have quoted mean that "A skin of Blackness" is a lack of purity then you are reading into your books things that just aren't there..

In the p***ages you have quoted there is not one word about the color of Skin. Yes it says that the Face of Jesus shone like the sun. But only His clothing was said to be white, Not Him.. There is nothing about the color of His skin.. Isaiah was taught that our sins would change and they would become white as wool. It wasn't the sinners color that changed but it was the sins.. I guess in the Bible skin color is unimportant, as it should be in mormonism but sadly it is important because Joseph Smith says so.. Not because it is the way of God.. God sees the heart, He doesn't look on the outside of the bowl He looks to see if the inside is clean.. No Skin of Blackness to point out sin of a people.. God knows what they are long before they were ever born.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Circular argument because your "scripture" includes the writing of the apostle Paul.

is that what the LDS teach? That what Paul recorded that is included in the Bible are his words? And you dare say that the Bible is the word of God as long as the translation is correct? If the writings of Paul are part of the Bible, and they are included as such in the LDS editions of the KJV, as well as the JSP, then you call them Paul's writings? They are the words Paul used to tell us how God, the Holy Spirit is to direct His Church. Paul's epistles that appear in the Bible are as much the word of God as are the first 5 books of the OT.. The Holy Spirit directed Moses to write what we have there just as much as He directed Paul to write the the epistle to the Romans..

How does this change the FACT that the BofM teaches that a Skin of Blackness is the indication that such are an Idle people, full of Mischief and Subtlety? teaching that is clearly bigotry and if there was a believing mormon that was an owner of an NBA team they could be seen as being just as evil in what they believe of Black people as is Donald Sterling.. They would deserve the same treatment he has received for making his nasty racial comments..

I can see that the truth of this is really bothering you Julie. May God use it to show you real truth. The truth that God is just and not a raging bigot.. Skin color is meaningless to Him. All he demands is when we stand before Him, whether we are white, black, brown, green, blue, or poka dotted, He sees the righteousness of His Son in us.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE=James Banta;155844]is that what the LDS teach? That what Paul recorded that is included in the Bible are his words? No, I am repeating what Alan said--he said:


Paul warned us to not just trust even his own words without putting all he said to the test of scripture. But that creates a circular argument because Paul's writings are scripture. Or, was Paul speaking prophetically, and if someone is called of God and speaks prophetically, then--yes, of course, that is scripture. But how did Paul test that against scripture as it was scripture?

[alanmolstad]

[QUOTE] No, I am repeating what Alan said--he said:

But that creates a circular argument because Paul's writings are scripture. Or, was Paul speaking prophetically, and if someone is called of God and speaks prophetically, then--yes, of course, that is scripture. But how did Paul test that against scripture as it was scripture?

You and I are to test what we have that is new and untested, by what we have already .

So Paul told us to test all things by what we have already...for (as we all know by now), the FAITH was ONCE for all given....

Thus, when a guy knocks on my door I take his teachings that test them by the bible.
The things that agree, I got no issues with.
The things that are different I reject.....as we are taught

[James Banta]

[BigJulie;155847][QUOTE] No, I am repeating what Alan said

No you are putting down what the Holy Spirit said through the Apostle.. The proper quote is:

Gal 1:8-9 (The Holy Spirit said it twice, it was so important)
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

That is what Alan was saying.. You are mistaken..

The Holy Spirit included Paul in that teaching.. If anyone, Paul included, preaches anything other than what was once delivered to the saints they are accursed. If Paul would have returned saying "Oh what I said before was wrong, here is the real true..." He would be accursed.. But Paul never did that, he spoke the word with Power and Authority, and Jesus was always the center of that message.. Paul never said that he had done a greater work than any of the Apostles or even Jesus. Everything He did he credited to the Lord..


But that creates a circular argument because Paul's writings are scripture. Or, was Paul speaking prophetically, and if someone is called of God and speaks prophetically, then--yes, of course, that is scripture. But how did Paul test that against scripture as it was scripture?

The message that came through Paul agreed 100% with the Scripture, 100%. You do know that there was scripture before the Pauline epistles were written don't you? On this side of the cross prophets no longer spoke for God to the people. While the gift of prophecy still exists, God message to His people, the Church, is complete..

Hebrew 1:1-2
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds

Again your words make you sound like you deny the very God breathed words we have in the Bible.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE=BigJulie;155847]

You and I are to test what we have that is new and untested, by what we have already .

So Paul told us to test all things by what we have already...for (as we all know by now), the FAITH was ONCE for all given....

Thus, when a guy knocks on my door I take his teachings that test them by the bible.
The things that agree, I got no issues with.
The things that are different I reject.....as we are taught

I think the problem is when you think faith IS the scriptures. The Pharisees got caught up in this same idea and rejected Christ as a result.

[RealFakeHair]

[QUOTE=alanmolstad;155849]

I think the problem is when you think faith IS the scriptures. The Pharisees got caught up in this same idea and rejected Christ as a result.

Huh, what?

[James Banta]

[QUOTE=alanmolstad;155849]

I think the problem is when you think faith IS the scriptures. The Pharisees got caught up in this same idea and rejected Christ as a result.

Christian Faith is that Jesus is God, That in His body He bore all our sins and offers Life to all who trust Him.. That is Christian faith. Yes we are taught that by the word He has preserved for us but we trust Him knowing that He sent His Apostles to teach all peoples because they believed Him, the Church grew. It was all based on faith in Jesus not on the words of mere men.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

Christian Faith is that Jesus is God, That in His body He bore all our sins and offers Life to all who trust Him.. That is Christian faith. Yes we are taught that by the word He has preserved for us but we trust Him knowing that He sent His Apostles to teach all peoples because they believed Him, the Church grew. It was all based on faith in Jesus not on the words of mere men.. IHS jim

The problem is, if a Pharisee used the test that Alan gave, without the guidance of the Holy Ghost (just what they already know and is congruent with what they already believe), he could not believe in Jesus Christ--which is exactly what happened. Therefore, Alan's test does not work.

If you read the NT, the Pharisees believed they were "testing" Christ against the Bible they understood. Because they lacked the real meaning of the teachings and thought they understood the teachings, Christ failed their test and was crucified for it.

[RealFakeHair]

Such as Peter mistaking what Christ meant when he said "Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep."

(Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.)

So, to you, if an apostle or a prophet doesn't understand what God teaches immediately or misunderstands, he is a false prophet. I don't agree. As we can see from the scriptures otherwise.

I don't know what dat got to do with them red skins, but hey if it works for you.lol

[James Banta]

If you read the NT, the Pharisees believed they were "testing" Christ against the Bible they understood. Because they lacked the real meaning of the teachings and thought they understood the teachings, Christ failed their test and was crucified for it.

The first part of your post you need to take up with Alan.. I don't really follow your conversation..

I have no problem seeing that most of the Pharisees didn't see Jesus as being God in human flesh. There were at least two that did believe.. Not all people even religious people believe in Jesus.. But even among the LDS there are some.. The Pharisees tested Jesus many times.. They tried to stone Him more than once. It wasn't until Jesus chased the vendors out of the temple that the High Priest really got worried.. After that they made a point of seeing Him killed.. They NEVER accomplished their goal. NO ONE TOOK THE LIFE OF THE LORD.. He laid it down! The men that tried to take His life didn't bother to read and understand p***ages like Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53. Both which prophecy of the Lord and His suffering for our sin.. Both which they had perfect availability.

It s hard to understand how a woman who believes she is so learned in the scripture would say "Christ failed their test and was crucified for it". Jesus confounded their "tests", all of them. They worked for His death out of greed and fear.. He laid down His life out of love for all of us that while we were dead in our sins, He died for us. We can only become the righteousness of God in Him if He becomes sin for us.. And the Word of God clearly states that the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:22).. Jesus drew the wages for our sin.. Even mine, especially mine.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

It s hard to understand how a woman who believes she is so learned in the scripture would say "Christ failed their test and was crucified for it". Jesus confounded their "tests", all of them.

I would agree that he confounded them--but to them He failed their tests. I was looking at the perspective of the testers. And I would agree it was fear and greed that was the base reasons, but I am sure that they did not see it that way. As Christ noted, they were blind.

That is why I don't think Alan's "test" p***es as the way to determine truth.

[Libby]

I would agree that he confounded them--but to them He failed their tests. I was looking at the perspective of the testers. And I would agree it was fear and greed that was the base reasons, but I am sure that they did not see it that way. As Christ noted, they were blind.

That is why I don't think Alan's "test" p***es as the way to determine truth.

People can be very blind to meaning and signs in scripture, if they are not attuned to the Spirit. (Is that what you mean?)

Orthodox Christians put a lot of emphasis on reading scripture, but without Holy Spirit guidance, it's possible to come up with some very bizarre interpretations.

[BigJulie]

People can be very blind to meaning and signs in scripture, if they are not attuned to the Spirit. (Is that what you mean?)

Orthodox Christians put a lot of emphasis on reading scripture, but without Holy Spirit guidance, it's possible to come up with some very bizarre interpretations.

Yes, this is why I mean---not being attuned to the Spirit. If you are attuned, you see the truth there.

[RealFakeHair]

Yes, this is why I mean---not being attuned to the Spirit. If you are attuned, you see the truth there.

Hick, BigJulie, that is what we have been trying to tell you! However right now you are attuned to the spirit of Joseph Smith jr. spirits, and that's the problem.

[neverending]

Yes, this is why I mean---not being attuned to the Spirit. If you are attuned, you see the truth there.

Julie,
I'd sure like an answer to this question. When I was investigating Mormonism, the faith I was born and raised in; as I was reading scriptures daily and so many times things I had once read now were showing me a totally new meaning, why? If you say that someone must be attuned to the Spirit, then how can you claim one thing and I can claim another?

I can honestly tell you that once I left Mormonism, reading scriptures became such an eye opener for me. It was like I was reading these things for the very first time. The Spirit was showing me the truth, I knew it and know it! I've read the BoM but Julie, there is nothing in it that influenced me. To be honest, reading it was very difficult and many things made no sense. How can someone who has had their head cut off, get up on their knees and gasp for breath? As a nurse, when someone dies so suddenly and in such a traumatic way, their body ****s...it is the nerves that are not receiving the proper signals from the brain. It isn't possible for a dead body to get up on it's knees; unless were talking about "The Walking Dead" as in the TV series. It is beyond me how anyone reading the BoM would feel anything spiritual nor have that book influence them unless they are lying to themselves and others.

We have God's word, written in the pages of the Bible and I will take what is written there as truth and being taught by the Spirit with reading Christ's words. That is far more important then some book written by a man we all know lived one heck of a sinful life. Anyone who lived during JS's day and was familiar with him, would not be influenced by his example as he never set one, the bar was very low. All I can say is I have a lot of sympathy for Emma and all those who have been fooled by such a man.

[RealFakeHair]

Julie,
I'd sure like an answer to this question. When I was investigating Mormonism, the faith I was born and raised in; as I was reading scriptures daily and so many times things I had once read now were showing me a totally new meaning, why? If you say that someone must be attuned to the Spirit, then how can you claim one thing and I can claim another?

I can honestly tell you that once I left Mormonism, reading scriptures became such an eye opener for me. It was like I was reading these things for the very first time. The Spirit was showing me the truth, I knew it and know it! I've read the BoM but Julie, there is nothing in it that influenced me. To be honest, reading it was very difficult and many things made no sense. How can someone who has had their head cut off, get up on their knees and gasp for breath? As a nurse, when someone dies so suddenly and in such a traumatic way, their body ****s...it is the nerves that are not receiving the proper signals from the brain. It isn't possible for a dead body to get up on it's knees; unless were talking about "The Walking Dead" as in the TV series. It is beyond me how anyone reading the BoM would feel anything spiritual nor have that book influence them unless they are lying to themselves and others.

We have God's word, written in the pages of the Bible and I will take what is written there as truth and being taught by the Spirit with reading Christ's words. That is far more important then some book written by a man we all know lived one heck of a sinful life. Anyone who lived during JS's day and was familiar with him, would not be influenced by his example as he never set one, the bar was very low. All I can say is I have a lot of sympathy for Emma and all those who have been fooled by such a man.
Just for the record, when you left LDSinc. Did the moment you gave in the Christ of the Holy Bible did you have a feeling of a great burden was lift off your shoulders?

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE=neverending;155909]

Julie,
I'd sure like an answer to this question. When I was investigating Mormonism, the faith I was born and raised in; as I was reading scriptures daily and so many times things I had once read now were showing me a totally new meaning, why? If you say that someone must be attuned to the Spirit, then how can you claim one thing and I can claim another? There are three possibilities.

1) One of us is and one of us isn't. In this case, I can only go by whether or not I am attuned to the spirit and not judge you, but not underestimate my own ability to recognize and follow the spirit.
2) Both of us are in tune with the spirit, but both in different aspects of learning. In this case, once again, I can only go by whether or not I am in tuned with the spirit and not judge you, but not underestimate my own ability to recognize and follow the spirit.
3) Neither of us are a tune and neither one of us recognize it.


I can honestly tell you that once I left Mormonism, reading scriptures became such an eye opener for me. It was like I was reading these things for the very first time. The Spirit was showing me the truth, I knew it and know it! That's great--you are seeing things you never saw.


I've read the BoM but Julie, there is nothing in it that influenced me. I've had a different experience


To be honest, reading it was very difficult and many things made no sense. How can someone who has had their head cut off, get up on their knees and gasp for breath? How can God direct animals onto an ark.


As a nurse, when someone dies so suddenly and in such a traumatic way, their body ****s...it is the nerves that are not receiving the proper signals from the brain. I've experienced someone dying as well. They did not have this same experience. But you probably never saw someone get their head cut off either.


It isn't possible for a dead body to get up on it's knees; unless were talking about "The Walking Dead" as in the TV series. It is beyond me how anyone reading the BoM would feel anything spiritual nor have that book influence them unless they are lying to themselves and others. Wow, this is what you struggle with with the book of Mormon? Because you never saw it, you don't think it is possible? Okay.


We have God's word, written in the pages of the Bible and I will take what is written there as truth and being taught by the Spirit with reading Christ's words. That is far more important then some book written by a man we all know lived one heck of a sinful life. Anyone who lived during JS's day and was familiar with him, would not be influenced by his example as he never set one, the bar was very low. All I can say is I have a lot of sympathy for Emma and all those who have been fooled by such a man. We don't all know that. In fact, I know the opposite. There were many who lived in Joseph Smith's day who were influenced by him. Oh my---how can you look at the LDS church today and think he had no influence in that day or today?

Another interesting thought---how could someone who "set the bar so low" as you believe, could influence so many people to do so much good?

[Billyray]

If you read the NT, the Pharisees believed they were "testing" Christ against the Bible they understood.
Where in the NT does it say that the Pharisees were ""testing" Christ against the Bible they understood"?

And what verses in the OT were they using to base their test of Christ?

[alanmolstad]

Where in the NT does it say that the Pharisees were ""testing" Christ against the Bible they understood"?

And what verses in the OT were they using to base their test of Christ?I think the "he who is without sin..." story is a good example where they went after him and tried to trap him,,,

[Billyray]

I think the "he who is without sin..." story is a good example where they went after him and tried to trap him,,,

So if there was a so called test--as BigJ claims--then this would have been a perfect example of how Christ p***ed their test.

[neverending]

Just for the record, when you left LDSinc. Did the moment you gave in the Christ of the Holy Bible did you have a feeling of a great burden was lift off your shoulders?

A resounding YES! But do know that not only a burden lifted but knowing for sure that I was saved, and NOTHING would ever change that. I had God's ***urance that what I read and believed written in His word was true and everything I had ever been taught as a Mormon was so wrong. Read 1 John 5:13. I knew that being a Mormon there was never enough good works that I could do and know for sure that my exaltation was ***ured. No Mormon can ever say they know that for sure. If they do, then they are very self-righteous for God hasn't told them how many good works they must do to have that ***urance. Why wouldn't there be a minimum amount, something so a Mormon would have that ***urance as I do? Unfortunately they don't. As a Christian, my faith, my belief in God and Jesus is what motivates me to want to do good things, like today cutting my neighbors lawn because he has Parkinson's and today was especially difficult for him.

My experience going through the temple was what really did it for me. The Holy Spirit spoke to me there and told me 3 times, that I needed to leave, that I didn't belong there. Mormons claim that their temples are the most spiritual places so was this an evil spirit speaking to me? I know it wasn't and find it interesting that I was told 3 times to leave. We know how God loves that number. Christ being in the tomb for 3 days, the parts of man, mind, body and spirit, 3 wise men, 3 elements, earth, wind and fire. The three persons of God. Peter who denied Christ 3 times. Christ even asked Peter 3 times if Peter loved him, 3 parts to an egg, shell, white and yoke. So one can certainly see that the number 3 has great meaning to God. Hope this helped.

[alanmolstad]

They put Jesus to the test every day.....all the time...

In the end we know they never once found fault with him via the Old Testemant because at his trial they were all over the map with false charges....

[alanmolstad]

The problem is, if a Pharisee used the test that Alan gave, without the guidance of the Holy Ghost (just what they already know and is congruent with what they already believe), he could not believe in Jesus Christ--which is exactly what happened. Therefore, Alan's test does not work.

If you read the NT, the Pharisees believed they were "testing" Christ against the Bible they understood. Because they lacked the real meaning of the teachings and thought they understood the teachings, Christ failed their test and was crucified for it.actually Jesus asks people to go to the scriptures so that they see that the scriptures testify to him.
And, they did the correct thing in putting all that Jesus said to the test....
The fact that some did not believe does not mean for a moment that we should not test teachings, rather we see in the bible examples where people did come to understand via testing Jesus that he was who he said he was....

So we cant blame the test by the Scriptures, for the fact that some people are ****s....

That would be like saying its pointless to have traffic laws when so many break them.
You cant blame the law for a few people being ****s.

[Billyray]

If you read the NT, the Pharisees believed they were "testing" Christ against the Bible they understood. Because they lacked the real meaning of the teachings and thought they understood the teachings, Christ failed their test and was crucified for it.
BigJ when you make up an ***ertion you should really think through the ramification of your ***ertion before you post it. But since you did post this may I ask you a follow up question or two? Here is the first question.

What would have happened to Christ--in your opinion--it these guys did understand the scriptures and Christ did p*** there so called test?

[RealFakeHair]

A resounding YES! But do know that not only a burden lifted but knowing for sure that I was saved, and NOTHING would ever change that. I had God's ***urance that what I read and believed written in His word was true and everything I had ever been taught as a Mormon was so wrong. Read 1 John 5:13. I knew that being a Mormon there was never enough good works that I could do and know for sure that my exaltation was ***ured. No Mormon can ever say they know that for sure. If they do, then they are very self-righteous for God hasn't told them how many good works they must do to have that ***urance. Why wouldn't there be a minimum amount, something so a Mormon would have that ***urance as I do? Unfortunately they don't. As a Christian, my faith, my belief in God and Jesus is what motivates me to want to do good things, like today cutting my neighbors lawn because he has Parkinson's and today was especially difficult for him.

My experience going through the temple was what really did it for me. The Holy Spirit spoke to me there and told me 3 times, that I needed to leave, that I didn't belong there. Mormons claim that their temples are the most spiritual places so was this an evil spirit speaking to me? I know it wasn't and find it interesting that I was told 3 times to leave. We know how God loves that number. Christ being in the tomb for 3 days, the parts of man, mind, body and spirit, 3 wise men, 3 elements, earth, wind and fire. The three persons of God. Peter who denied Christ 3 times. Christ even asked Peter 3 times if Peter loved him, 3 parts to an egg, shell, white and yoke. So one can certainly see that the number 3 has great meaning to God. Hope this helped.

No matter how well prepared a LDSinc. Testimony is, it can never match that of a Christian when the christian realizes what Grace has done for them. Salvation is a wonderful thing to have and to hold FOREVER !

[James Banta]

I would agree that he confounded them--but to them He failed their tests. I was looking at the perspective of the testers. And I would agree it was fear and greed that was the base reasons, but I am sure that they did not see it that way. As Christ noted, they were blind.

That is why I don't think Alan's "test" p***es as the way to determine truth.

According to them their self righteousness is what is needed to be acceptable to God.. So what THEY believed is the example of what NOT to be.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

[QUOTE] No, I am repeating what Alan said--he said:

But that creates a circular argument because Paul's writings are scripture. Or, was Paul speaking prophetically, and if someone is called of God and speaks prophetically, then--yes, of course, that is scripture. But how did Paul test that against scripture as it was scripture?

I told you before that Alan was quoting a p***age of scripture.. Does the Holy Spirit teach in "circular arguments"? No? The when Paul wrote as the Holy Spirit directed saying:

Gal 1:8-9
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

A regenerate person can see that even Paul is forbidden from teaching any other Gospel to the Church that the one that has already been taught.. Alan was right.. I don't understand why you started kicking against that teaching.. Oh I remember you would rather have the gospel of Joseph Smith, another gospel, a gospel of works and personal obedience instead of the Gospel of grace Paul first delivered to the Church.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

People can be very blind to meaning and signs in scripture, if they are not attuned to the Spirit. (Is that what you mean?)

Orthodox Christians put a lot of emphasis on reading scripture, but without Holy Spirit guidance, it's possible to come up with some very bizarre interpretations.

Like those we observed from Julie in attacking Alan.. She attacked him for referring to the scripture that is crystal clear. If anyone preaches another Gospel other than the one that He had first taught in Galatia "let them be accursed".. Paul wasn't looking for peace between error and truth the way you do Libby. He was drawing a clear line of division between error and truth.. Smith taught a gospel that was not the same as what Paul first taught..That is error! Paul clearly taught the message from God. The message that our salvation doesn't come by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost (***us 3:5). That is God's truth.. It's time for you to either defend that truth or PLEASE LEAVE.. IHS jim

[Libby]

Love you, James. :)

[James Banta]

Love you, James. :)

As I do you.. I just find you to be divisive.. IHS jim

[Libby]

As I do you.. I just find you to be divisive.. IHS jim

How so?

I left Mormonism for a reason, James, but I haven't been gone from there, as long as you have, and I still remember what it was like to be on the other side of this discussion. Do you know who I listened to the most? Those people who showed me kindness and understanding. Those who showed me the truth of the Bible, without hitting me over the head with it. People who were running around screaming at me and telling me how WRONG I was, and that I was going straight to hell, only repelled me. It was the people who, first, befriended me, people from whom I could feel genuineness and caring, that I began to listen.

I still don't like the "heavy sell", even from Christians with whom I agree. It turns people off...and we are, partially, responsible, when we drive people away from God with our own personal behavior.

[James Banta]

How so?

I left Mormonism for a reason, James, but I haven't been gone from there, as long as you have, and I still remember what it was like to be on the other side of this discussion. Do you know who I listened to the most? Those people who showed me kindness and understanding. Those who showed me the truth of the Bible, without hitting me over the head with it. People who were running around screaming at me and telling me how WRONG I was, and that I was going straight to hell, only repelled me. It was the people who, first, befriended me, people from whom I could feel genuineness and caring, that I began to listen.

I still don't like the "heavy sell", even from Christians with whom I agree. It turns people off...and we are, partially, responsible, when we drive people away from God with our own personal behavior.

The LDS church teaches that the Bible is true only as far as it in translated correctly.. YOU LIBBY while you say you believe in Jesus and have Partaken of His salvation have agreed with them that the Bible is 1. Not wholly of divine inspiration. And 2. Not completely of divine origin.. You have given the cultist ammunition in their ***ault of the Bible as God's inerrant message to man.. That is the main reason that I have asked you to leave here so often..

Tell you what; don't leave.. Instead repent! Tell us all with the same enthusiasm that The Bible is God's word and by the authority of the promises of Jesus it is filled with His messages of life, love, inspiration, and salvation. That the same message He delivered to to the prophets, and Apostles is still available to us in His word and that today we all can have personal revelation of Him, His Godhood, His Lordship, through the message he has preserved for us in the Bible.. IHS jim

[neverending]

No matter how well prepared a LDSinc. Testimony is, it can never match that of a Christian when the christian realizes what Grace has done for them. Salvation is a wonderful thing to have and to hold FOREVER !

Thank you RFH for your kind comment. As each new day arrives, I give the Lord my thanks, my praise and honor for seeing me and James through the night. Most don't know what a struggle it is for us dealing with all of James' health issues and my own.

May you have a very blessed Sunday today.

[The Pheonix]

To the OP, we have done what matters most, we changed the policy and behavior. Apologies are fine, but what matters most is actions. Usually apologies are to make us feel good, instead of doing what is right. To this day, on this topic, it is MLK Jr, who is the Prophet in all of those words;

"11:00AM on Sunday is still the most segregated hour of the week".

46 years after his death (murder), it is still the case all over the world and sadly in this Nation, founded upon the sacred text of the Cons***ution, that all men are created equal.

[James Banta]

People can be very blind to meaning and signs in scripture, if they are not attuned to the Spirit. (Is that what you mean?)

Orthodox Christians put a lot of emphasis on reading scripture, but without Holy Spirit guidance, it's possible to come up with some very bizarre interpretations.

PANDERING!!! You make it sound like Orthodox Christians are "without (the) Holy Spirit guidance.. You make it sound that only the LDS pray before their personal Bible readings.. That only they are attuned to that spirit.. Fix this or live with your pandering of the LDS.. IHS jim

[Libby]

PANDERING!!! You make it sound like Orthodox Christians are "without (the) Holy Spirit guidance.. You make it sound that only the LDS pray before their personal Bible readings.. That only they are attuned to that spirit.. Fix this or live with your pandering of the LDS.. IHS jim

Not at all. I've said, many times, that it makes no difference what church you are in, you can still have a relationship with The Lord....or not.

[James Banta]

Not at all. I've said, many times, that it makes no difference what church you are in, you can still have a relationship with The Lord....or not.

Look at what Julie says here in the forum.. Other than believing that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God she sounds VERY Christian, UNTIL she finally confesses that she believes in three Gods. That she believes that she will someday be a Goddess. Then it all comes down falling flat in her anti-biblical teachings.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Not at all. I've said, many times, that it makes no difference what church you are in, you can still have a relationship with The Lord....or not.



Correct, the building is moot...the name on the sign stuck into the lawn is moot.
The only important matter is the heart of the person.

[The Pheonix]

Not at all. I've said, many times, that it makes no difference what church you are in, you can still have a relationship with The Lord....or not.
Here is how I have found this idea gets sticks.

Denominations do not matter, until you disagree in debate, more importantly apologetics. Then the many denominations are no longer one Church.

People can say what they like, but when it comes to a "unity of Faith", we have down, we have made it a science.

[Libby]

Not sure what you mean by that last sentence, Phoenix? Is the "we" a general we, or do you mean the LDS Church?

[Billyray]

Here is how I have found this idea gets sticks.

Denominations do not matter, until you disagree in debate, more importantly apologetics. Then the many denominations are no longer one Church.

People can say what they like, but when it comes to a "unity of Faith", we have down, we have made it a science.
You are not saved by a church--you are saved by putting your trust in Christ. BTW even the apostles had theological debates. Read Acts 15.

[RealFakeHair]

To the OP, we have done what matters most, we changed the policy and behavior. Apologies are fine, but what matters most is actions. Usually apologies are to make us feel good, instead of doing what is right. To this day, on this topic, it is MLK Jr, who is the Prophet in all of those words;

"11:00AM on Sunday is still the most segregated hour of the week".

46 years after his death (murder), it is still the case all over the world and sadly in this Nation, founded upon the sacred text of the Cons***ution, that all men are created equal.

Okay, Pheonix, help me out here, if people wish to ***ociation with whom they wish, what business is it our yours to question them? OH, and let me remind you during Jesus's day, the Sabbath was the most segregated day of the week.
MLK jr. are you kidding me?

[James Banta]

Here is how I have found this idea gets sticks.

Denominations do not matter, until you disagree in debate, more importantly apologetics. Then the many denominations are no longer one Church.

People can say what they like, but when it comes to a "unity of Faith", we have down, we have made it a science.

It is clear that Alan and I don't agree on many points of doctrine.. The most clear at this time are the 5 points of Calvinism.. BUT ALAN IS MY BROTHER IN CHRIST, We share the same tenents of faith That there in One God who is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. That salvation is available only by God's grace through faith in Jesus, and NOT OF WORKS. That God is God there never was another and there never will be any other. That God created, called into being, all things visible and invisible, sen or unseen, by the power of His word from NOTHING.. That it is the Lord that adds to His Church. No man is capable of even ***isting God in that work. Alan and I have come to a unity of the Faith no matter how much we disagree on secondary doctrines.. There is UNITY of the faith among all believers..

You and I both say we worship God, but since you and I can't agree on who God is, on the salvation He has provided, who can add others to the Church, or even what creation means, you and I are not in unity. One of us is wrong, one of us teaches another gospel that Paul didn't teach to the Church.. One of us is accursed.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

RFH..
Its the woman at the well.....

That is the example we are to follow...
Not the natural tendency to seek out only people that resemble ourselves......But to seek out the ones we tend to avoid....

[James Banta]

Not sure what you mean by that last sentence, Phoenix? Is the "we" a general we, or do you mean the LDS Church?

He means mormonism.. He can't possible mean that the LDS church is at unity with Bible based Christianity. They are just TOO different.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

If you are paddling your boat over the edge of a cliff and to destruction, its doesn't really matter everyone was on the same beat...

[James Banta]

To the OP, we have done what matters most, we changed the policy and behavior. Apologies are fine, but what matters most is actions. Usually apologies are to make us feel good, instead of doing what is right. To this day, on this topic, it is MLK Jr, who is the Prophet in all of those words;

"11:00AM on Sunday is still the most segregated hour of the week".

46 years after his death (murder), it is still the case all over the world and sadly in this Nation, founded upon the sacred text of the Cons***ution, that all men are created equal.

There is no higher policy for the Church than the Word of God given to Her.. The Lord taught us all His Gospel. As His children, His Church, we conform our beliefs and actions to His commandments and will as that is recorded for us in the scripture. The LDS have appointed other writings as scripture, other then the Bible. In the Book of Abraham it clearly points out that ...Pharaoh being of that lineage by which he could not have the right of Priesthood, notwithstanding the Pharaohs would fain claim it from Noah, through Ham, therefore my father was led away by their idolatry (Abraham 1:27).

The BofM the teaches that a dark skin is a curse a sign of evil. And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them. (2 Nephi 5:21)

Explain how these "scriptures" are not racist.. Yes I would have shown how your God had made a mistake and men had to clean up after Him if you had changed these things but a God that taught them in the first place is Not the God of the Church, Not the God of Israel that loved the world so much that He came into it to take our sin and die in our place for them.. The whole of the world not just a few white and delightsome people.. Sorry but right there in LDS "scripture" the racism of Joseph Smith and his invented God are made clear.. IHS jim

Oh, a point of education for you no where in the Cons***ution is it taught that all men are created equal. You may go and find that statement in historic reference. When you do maybe you could correct this error it does nothing to make you sound intelligent..

[James Banta]

If you are paddling your boat over the edge of a cliff and to destruction, its doesn't really matter everyone was on the same beat...

You can't really believe that if someone is a Calvinist that holding those teaches ****s them, can you? Aren't such believers still your brothers and sisters in the LORD? Such a teaching is unbiblical and you know it.. IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

RFH..
Its the woman at the well.....

That is the example we are to follow...
Not the natural tendency to seek out only people that resemble ourselves......But to seek out the ones we tend to avoid....

I haven't stopped by a Well lately, but if I do and find a women there, she might want to avoid me.

[alanmolstad]

Calvinism is a "man-made" idea....That while it may be made up of bad conclusions of a few Christians, they are still conclusions that do not effect one way or the other the salvation of a person.
Calvinism is a crashed idea that makes a person's witness less strong.
But no one ever landed in Hell over the question.

In fact, the open and honest dis-unity seen within the Body of Christ over the question of Calvinism is what many (in the world of the CULTS)wish they had within their own religion.

People in the CULTS must look at the way Christians are so free to openly disagree with even their own church's leadership based on our freedom of thought, that they got to think of their own religion as being in need of the fresh air running though the debates between Christians.

So there is no harm at all in the different voices heard speaking out on Calvinism within the Christian church....


Mormonism is way more serious.
Mormonism is a man-made idea that feeds into the lies of Satan and will cause "****ation".
So the fact that within Mormonism we see a lot of forced-unity it is a moot point.
Unity in teachings that **** are of no merit.

I once debated a JW that I worked with and he tried to attack the Christian churches by pointing out..."All you people in the Christian church cant agree on anything. One church teaches one thing, the next teaches something totally different...Im so glad to be a JW where we all believe the same things"

It was at the moment I pointed out the ****ogy of being in a boat paddling over the edge of a cliff to destruction...
"Does it really matter they all were on the same beat? is the question I asked him....

.

[alanmolstad]

I haven't stopped by a Well lately, but if I do and find a women there, she might want to avoid me.

my point is that when I read your response to the quotation of MLK jr. I was struck by how much your words reminded me of a question asked in the Bible..."Am I my brother's keeper?"

[RealFakeHair]

my point is that when I read your response to the quotation of MLK jr. I was struck by how much your words reminded me of a question asked in the Bible..."Am I my brother's keeper?"

Most families have someone in their family they wish not to be with on Sundays, why make it more complicated?
You can be your brother's keeper and just for some reason or other not wanting to ***ociate with them.
I say, it is their business and not any one else. Kinda like one of my brother in laws, love the guy just hate sometimes having him around.

[James Banta]

Most families have someone in their family they wish not to be with on Sundays, why make it more complicated?
You can be your brother's keeper and just for some reason or other not wanting to ***ociate with them.
I say, it is their business and not any one else. Kinda like one of my brother in laws, love the guy just hate sometimes having him around.

But that doesn't mean you wouldn't be there if he really needed your help now does it.. I personally don't know how the Lord uses the resources that the Church are given by the children of God. But I know that millions are helped by the Church.. Some in one one some in another.. Whether it be a home, an education, clean water, clothing or food the Church is there to help the helpless, feed the hungry, and care for the widowed and the orphan..

Have you heard of the mercy ships? They do from port to port treating the children of the world that are even rejected by their own people. The doctors there restore their lives as the nurses hold them and comfort their fears.

https://imager.2dialog.com/images/mercyships/002/17/0/children.526eaa3f9707c65297.jpg

https://imager.2dialog.com/images/mercyships/002/17/0/banner.526eaa3f6897465763.jpg

While I won't explain my involvement in this work I will say that the Church today indeed follows the admonitions of the Apostle James.. We are our brothers keepers.. If your heart is moved to be involved in this work, DON'T TELL ME, Go to https://donate.mercyships.org/mercyships/main.php/micro_sites/showpage?id=1&page_number=1&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=mercy%20ships&utm_campaign=paid and let them know of your willingness to serve God at their side.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Most families have someone in their family they wish not to be with on Sundays, why make it more complicated?
You can be your brother's keeper and just for some reason or other not wanting to ***ociate with them.
I say, it is their business and not any one else. Kinda like one of my brother in laws, love the guy just hate sometimes having him around.


Say, what was Mathew's *** again?_________ ___________




My point?
The lesson is that later in the Bible, when someone is truly a real problem to deal with, and he simply is doing all kinds of things wrong, so much so that it gets to the point where you toss them out of the church.....the final **** is to treat them in the future just like they were the worst type of person to be around or ***ociated with.....

Guess what type of person they list you treat them like?___ _______




Jesus went out of His way to give us an example!
This is no accident!!!

...the example is that we don't get to pat ourselves on the back for avoiding people...no matter how much we want to avoid them
No matter how many good reasons we have to list...
.
This fits with his teaching that we are to do "good things' to the very people out to cause us the most harm.

Not just avoid them,,,not just help them when they might ask for help....But to really seek ways to do good things for such a person.

[RealFakeHair]

Say, what was Mathew's *** again?_________ ___________




My point?
The lesson is that later in the Bible, when someone is truly a real problem to deal with, and he simply is doing all kinds of things wrong, so much so that it gets to the point where you toss them out of the church.....the final **** is to treat them in the future just like they were the worst type of person to be around or ***ociated with.....

Guess what type of person they list you treat them like?___ _______




Jesus went out of His way to give us an example!
This is no accident!!!

...the example is that we don't get to pat ourselves on the back for avoiding people...no matter how much we want to avoid them
No matter how many good reasons we have to list...
.
This fits with his teaching that we are to do "good things' to the very people out to cause us the most harm.

Not just avoid them,,,not just help them when they might ask for help....But to really seek ways to do good things for such a person.
We all from time to time wish to avoid people, it's only human to do so. I just don't see the big deal here. That's not to say, when the opportunity comes our way we act on it, or in some case not. Like the other day, on the Inter state, a woman was broke down. My wife asked why I didn't stop to help her? The answer was, first it is a dangerous place on the hwy, second she had a cell phone, and third it was in the middle of the day. There was no reason for me to stop. Now things could have been different, and who knows maybe I would have stopped and maybe not.

[alanmolstad]

In Seattle I was asked to speak at a church on the East-side of the lake.
When I spoke there I noted that there was abut a 50-50 mix of white people and black people.
Later the Pastor talked to me about how he built his church outreach around the idea of getting people of different color to worship at the same place at the same time.

Now this all sounded great.
and at first glance it sure looked like it was a church that was setting a very good example for others that were only all-black or all-white.

But then I looked a bit closer....

It turns out that this church was filled mostly with Christians that were in a mixed marriage.
If you were black and married a person who was white, you were pointed in this church's direction.

So on the surface it may have looked like this church was different, but the truth is , it was just a normal collection of people that looked the same.....they all were "mixed"

This is the normal way we do things as people....
We have a natural tendency to seek out people that we look like...or sound like....or have things in common with....or can get along with the most easy.

But the example Jesus left us is to seek to not fall into this same pattern.

[alanmolstad]

Say, what was Mathew's *** again?_________ ___________




My point?
The lesson is that later in the Bible, when someone is truly a real problem to deal with, and he simply is doing all kinds of things wrong, so much so that it gets to the point where you toss them out of the church.....the final **** is to treat them in the future just like they were the worst type of person to be around or ***ociated with.....

Guess what type of person they list you treat them like?___ _______




Jesus went out of His way to give us an example!
This is no accident!!!

...the example is that we don't get to pat ourselves on the back for avoiding people...no matter how much we want to avoid them
No matter how many good reasons we have to list...
.
This fits with his teaching that we are to do "good things' to the very people out to cause us the most harm.

Not just avoid them,,,not just help them when they might ask for help....But to really seek ways to do good things for such a person.



By the way, the answer is "Tax Collector "

[RealFakeHair]

In Seattle I was asked to speak at a church on the East-side of the lake.
When I spoke there I noted that there was abut a 50-50 mix of white people and black people.
Later the Pastor talked to me about how he built his church outreach around the idea of getting people of different color to worship at the same place at the same time.

Now this all sounded great.
and at first glance it sure looked like it was a church that was setting a very good example for others that were only all-black or all-white.

But then I looked a bit closer....

It turns out that this church was filled mostly with Christians that were in a mixed marriage.
If you were black and married a person who was white, you were pointed in this church's direction.

So on the surface it may have looked like this church was different, but the truth is , it was just a normal collection of people that looked the same.....they all were "mixed"

This is the normal way we do things as people....
We have a natural tendency to seek out people that we look like...or sound like....or have things in common with....or can get along with the most easy.

But the example Jesus left us is to seek to not fall into this same pattern.

Here in the South we now have a problem when an inter-city church turns from white, to mix to, it's all goes well until the church is split about 50/50 then at one point or the other culture differences come into play. Everything from music to the color of the carpet is a fight, and when it comes time to pick a new pastor, things can really get ugly.
This is why I believe in the future things will be more Balkanized then Multicultural.

[BigJulie]

Look at what Julie says here in the forum.. Other than believing that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God she sounds VERY Christian, UNTIL she finally confesses that she believes in three Gods. That she believes that she will someday be a Goddess. Then it all comes down falling flat in her anti-biblical teachings.. IHS jim

I just love (said tongue in cheek) when people put words into my mouth. I am convinced James that you have no foundation in truth, nor worry about it in any way.

I think you do this to bait me. James, in the end, you just lose credibility.

[RealFakeHair]

I just love (said tongue in cheek) when people put words into my mouth. I am convinced James that you have no foundation in truth, nor worry about it in any way.

I think you do this to bait me. James, in the end, you just lose credibility.
What do reformed Egyptian words taste like anyways?

[Libby]

RFH - Here in the South we now have a problem when an inter-city church turns from white, to mix to, it's all goes well until the church is split about 50/50 then at one point or the other culture differences come into play. Everything from music to the color of the carpet is a fight, and when it comes time to pick a new pastor, things can really get ugly.
This is why I believe in the future things will be more Balkanized then Multicultural.

I hope it doesn't turn out that way. I live in Southern California and we are very multi-cultural here...and most, in our church, including our wonderful Pastor, put an emphasis on, not just tolerance, but appreciation of this wonderful variety of people. My church consists of many different races of all colors and we like it that way. I see it as "siblings", in Christ, all trying our best to get along. It's good for spiritual growth, IMO.

[RealFakeHair]

I hope it doesn't turn out that way. I live in Southern California and we are very multi-cultural here...and most, in our church, including our wonderful Pastor, put an emphasis on, not just tolerance, but appreciation of this wonderful variety of people. My church consists of many different races of all colors and we like it that way. I see it as "siblings", in Christ, all trying our best to get along. It's good for spiritual growth, IMO.
Here is the deal, for the past 50 years white Christians and other conservatives has been brain-washed in (Tolerance). Tolerance to non-whites, non-Christians, non- conservatives, non-eurocentrism, and now, non-straight people, sexuality.
However the other side have not, I repeat not had to be or act tolerance to us.
There seems to be a backlash, and it is about time the other side had to be tolerant to us, but don't bet on it.

[The Pheonix]

Okay, Pheonix, help me out here, if people wish to ***ociation with whom they wish, what business is it our yours to question them? OH, and let me remind you during Jesus's day, the Sabbath was the most segregated day of the week.
MLK jr. are you kidding me?
I am finding it difficult to see which question you believe is buried there. Also I did not say anything about the Sabbath day in Christ's day; which is why I quoted MLK, Jr and not Jesus in sermons on the mount, etc. I did this because the thread ***le was about bigotry.

[RealFakeHair]

I am finding it difficult to see which question you believe is buried there. Also I did not say anything about the Sabbath day in Christ's day; which is why I quoted MLK, Jr and not Jesus in sermons on the mount, etc. I did this because the thread ***le was about bigotry.

you have been here long enough to know things get side-track. However it all has to do with ***ociation, or in other words, birds of a feather, flock together.

[The Pheonix]

you have been here long enough to know things get side-track. However it all has to do with ***ociation, or in other words, birds of a feather, flock together.
Oh yes, my whole 15 posts and my two weeks old account. :( Am I prepare for the whippings that must comes quickly.

[RealFakeHair]

Oh yes, my whole 15 posts and my two weeks old account. :( Am I prepare for the whippings that must comes quickly.

NO whippin, just send me a hundred dollars and your account will be up to date, and all is forgiven.

[Libby]

Here is the deal, for the past 50 years white Christians and other conservatives has been brain-washed in (Tolerance). Tolerance to non-whites, non-Christians, non- conservatives, non-eurocentrism, and now, non-straight people, sexuality.
However the other side have not, I repeat not had to be or act tolerance to us.
There seems to be a backlash, and it is about time the other side had to be tolerant to us, but don't bet on it.

Well, this is getting a little deeper than I would care to go, on this board, but I have to say that "the other side" has been extremely tolerant, and not because they necessarily wanted to be, but because they had no choice.

At any rate, tolerance (and forgiveness) on all sides, would be a very good goal, IMO.

Also, people tend to be more understanding of different cultures, when they mingle with them. Separation only keeps the misunderstandings and hate ongoing.

[The Pheonix]

NO whippin, just send me a hundred dollars and your account will be up to date, and all is forgiven.Would that make you "RFH$ Inc"? :)

[RealFakeHair]

Well, this is getting a little deeper than I would care to go, on this board, but I have to say that "the other side" has been extremely tolerant, and not because they necessarily wanted to be, but because they had no choice.

At any rate, tolerance (and forgiveness) on all sides, would be a very good goal, IMO.

Also, people tend to be more understanding of different cultures, when they mingle with them. Separation only keeps the misunderstandings and hate ongoing.

We just live in two different worlds on this one. OH, and tell that to the Muslims, they never show any understanding to others, even to other muslims not part of their group, ie Shia vs Sunni. I bet you can't name one country where Muslims are a significant number of the population where they don't cause trouble?

[Libby]

Oh, no way...I am not going there! :)

I think, it would be to our advange, if we figure out how to, all, get along in THIS country, before we start pointing fingers at other countries.

That's all I have to say on this subject (maybe).

[RealFakeHair]

Oh, no way...I am not going there! :)

I think, it would be to our advange, if we figure out how to, all, get along in THIS country, before we start pointing fingers at other countries.

That's all I have to say on this subject (maybe).
You know you got more to say.
You are just to must of a softy. It okay, the world needs softies, however just not to many.
It were the softies who said, "oh the Nazi they aint so bad.....

[neverending]

I just love (said tongue in cheek) when people put words into my mouth. I am convinced James that you have no foundation in truth, nor worry about it in any way.

I think you do this to bait me. James, in the end, you just lose credibility.

Instead of evading the questions James asks, why don't you prove what he has said is false? It sure gets tiring to read comments where an LDS person ignores a question, accuses someone of lying, making up stuff, or misinformed. If these things are true, prove where that person, such as James is wrong. Sounds like the liberals in Congress, they never give a straight answer, will evade for as long as possible until someone finds out the truth then say, "I didn't know I was doing anything wrong; I never had sex with THAT WOMAN". "It depends on your definition of what, IS is". Gotta love ole Pres. Clinton......NOT!! Kinda like Mormons saying, depends on what your definition of faith without works is. So confusing isn't it and mind boggling.

[RealFakeHair]

Would that make you "RFH$ Inc"? :)

It a B S corporation!

[James Banta]

I just love (said tongue in cheek) when people put words into my mouth. I am convinced James that you have no foundation in truth, nor worry about it in any way.

I think you do this to bait me. James, in the end, you just lose credibility.

I thought you were gone.. What I said restated LDS doctrine as put forth from Joseph Smith.. If you disagree with His teaching on the subject I am sorry and take back my words. But if you believe in him as a prophet of God and that when He taught the church especially from the pulpit what he said was revelation for the the church then I stand by what I have said. Do you not believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three distinct personages and three Gods? Or do you believe that even though the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are separate persons that they are one God? That is a major difference that has eternal consequences.. It isn't a minor difference at all.. In your denial of mormonism believing in three Gods it is you that has lost credibility. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

I thought you were gone.. What I said restated LDS doctrine as put forth from Joseph Smith.. If you disagree with His teaching on the subject I am sorry and take back my words. But if you believe in him as a prophet of God and that when He taught the church especially from the pulpit what he said was revelation for the the church then I stand by what I have said. Do you not believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three distinct personages and three Gods? Or do you believe that even though the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are separate persons that they are one God? That is a major difference that has eternal consequences.. It isn't a minor difference at all.. In your denial of mormonism believing in three Gods it is you that has lost credibility. IHS jim

James, when you post---please don't use my name or refer to me when the conversation is not with me. I don't appreciate it.

[Billyray]

James, when you post---please don't use my name or refer to me when the conversation is not with me. I don't appreciate it.
When we reference what you have said that is certainly fair game.

[alanmolstad]

When we reference what you have said that is certainly fair game.

very true.
As long as the name I use for other guests is with respect .

But when I post here I do expect that from time to time my name will come up in other conversations that im not part of, about what I have posted....
Its normal , and actually helps give credit where credit is due...

[BigJulie]

When we reference what you have said that is certainly fair game.

If you want to post my exact thread, without cutting and pasting it out of context, I am fine with that. In fact, I remember you requesting the same thing years ago Billyray. Other than that, it is just gossip--at least when he tells people what I have said in such a way that it is completely inaccurate. (Something like the telephone game used to show what happens when gossip occurs.)

[BigJulie]

very true.
As long as the name I use for other guests is with respect .

But when I post here I do expect that from time to time my name will come up in other conversations that im not part of, about what I have posted....
Its normal , and actually helps give credit where credit is due...

Yeah, I agree---but that is not what James is doing.

[James Banta]

Yeah, I agree---but that is not what James is doing.

Don't just make wild unsupported accusations. Show us all what I have been doing.. You have said I am breaking the commandment is bearing false witness.. NOT once have you ever shown that what I have said is that false witness.. Accusation are easy to make.. Supporting them is much harder.. Is it that you don't want to do the work to make your case, or is it that you can't give any evidence to support your charges?

Do you remember this p***age of scripture or haven't you ever seen it before:

Deut 19:16-19
If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him that which is wrong;
Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days;
And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother;
Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you.

Just what is it that you want done to me? You want me to be seen as a liar? Discredited in the forum? That is what has happened to you in making that accusation against me.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

Don't just make wild unsupported accusations. Show us all what I have been doing.. You have said I am breaking the commandment is bearing false witness.. NOT once have you ever shown that what I have said is that false witness.. Accusation are easy to make.. Supporting them is much harder.. Is it that you don't want to do the work to make your case, or is it that you can't give any evidence to support your charges? IHS jim

James you said:


Look at what Julie says here in the forum.. Other than believing that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God she sounds VERY Christian, UNTIL she finally confesses that she believes in three Gods. That she believes that she will someday be a Goddess. Then it all comes down falling flat in her anti-biblical teachings.. IHS jim

Show me even one of my posts that state that I "confessed" I believe in "three Gods"---even one. Cut and paste my thread that states this. If you can't, you are bearing false witness. Go, search this forum. Find it.

If you can't---then apologize to me and confess to this forum that you have born false witness against me.

[James Banta]

James, when you post---please don't use my name or refer to me when the conversation is not with me. I don't appreciate it.

You do it to me all the time.. What is good for the goose.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

very true.
As long as the name I use for other guests is with respect .

But when I post here I do expect that from time to time my name will come up in other conversations that im not part of, about what I have posted....
Its normal , and actually helps give credit where credit is due...

And her name was not used to belittle her only to explain a position of what the LDS hold to be true.. I thought she was LDS so ***igning their beliefs to her is not an insult.. She has since used my name but in doing so she has accused me of breaking the ninth commandment.. Which would you say is insulting and which is not? IHS jim

[James Banta]

Show me even one of my posts that state that I "confessed" I believe in "three Gods"---even one. Cut and paste my thread that states this. If you can't, you are bearing false witness. Go, search this forum. Find it.

If you can't---then apologize to me and confess to this forum that you have born false witness against me.

Are you LDS? Do you believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet? Do you believe that he taught false doctrine about the nature of God? Do you support his statements he made about God in his history and over the pulpit as he taught the church? Did he ever in any forum teach false doctrine about the nature of God?

If you are LDS, if you believe that Smith was a prophet who NEVER taught falsely about God or any other doctrine then you do believe that there are three Gods.. All you have to do to show that I am lying about you is to say that you don't believe in the first vision or that in official gathering of his church Smith taught false doctrines.. GO FOR IT.. IHS jim

[neverending]

Yeah, I agree---but that is not what James is doing.

And what you have been doing is respectful? Calling MY HUSBAND a liar, and bearing false witness? Why do you ignore what I post? Seems all you want is attention from the men on this site. You fail every time you post and fail to do any research to prove that what my husband has posted is true or not. Again I say that you fail to even read most of what he posts or that you have some kind of brain dysfunction that keeps you from comprehending the written word; which is it? Keep walking around with your eyes closed listening to the falsehoods of Mormonism especially when things have been shown you straight from JS, or other self proclaimed prophets of your church. What do you really believe Julie?

The ball is in your court. It is up to YOU to prove James wrong and I haven't seen you even try. WHY Julie? It's so easy to keep throwing out there, that James is a liar and is bearing false witness but since your faith is the one in the hot seat, it is up to you to defend it or deny it. I wait to see something.

[BigJulie]

Are you LDS? Do you believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet? Do you believe that he taught false doctrine about the nature of God? Do you support his statements he made about God in his history and over the pulpit as he taught the church? Did he ever in any forum teach false doctrine about the nature of God?

If you are LDS, if you believe that Smith was a prophet who NEVER taught falsely about God or any other doctrine then you do believe that there are three Gods.. All you have to do to show that I am lying about you is to say that you don't believe in the first vision or that in official gathering of his church Smith taught false doctrines.. GO FOR IT.. IHS jim

In other words, you can't. Are you going to apologize now? You attributed things to me I never "confessed"---not only do you bear false witness against my religion, you bear false witness against me personally. You can't find that I "confessed" to believe in "three Gods". The burden of proof lies with you. You made the accusations. Prove it. You can't and you know it.

In fact, you even allude to our scriptures with this:
after all in 1829 Smith believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Ghost) is one God (See the testimony of the three witnesses and 2 Nephi 31:21...and then you go on trying to spin your spin to make your point as if the Book of Mormon testimony that I believe does not stand today.

The scripture in the Book of Mormon reads
" And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen."So, as I stated, as this is the scripture I confess to believe----one you know I believe and you dismiss it--well, you know you are bearing false witness. You can't find that I "confess" to what you say, you are aware of what the Book of Mormon states, and then you try to shift the burden to me.

[BigJulie]

Proverbs 6:16-19

King James Version (KJV)


16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,

19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

I think this pretty much sums up your time here on WM James (other than shedding innocent blood.)

[neverending]

In other words, you can't. Are you going to apologize now? You attributed things to me I never "confessed"---not only do you bear false witness against my religion, you bear false witness against me personally. You can't find that I "confessed" to believe in "three Gods". The burden of proof lies with you. You made the accusations. Prove it. You can't and you know it.

In fact, you even allude to our scriptures with this: ...and then you go on trying to spin your spin to make your point as if the Book of Mormon testimony that I believe does not stand today.

The scripture in the Book of Mormon reads So, as I stated, as this is the scripture I confess to believe----one you know I believe and you dismiss it--well, you know you are bearing false witness. You can't find that I "confess" to what you say, you are aware of what the Book of Mormon states, and then you try to shift the burden to me.

What is so sad Julie is that there is no Mormon doctrine in the BOM. It doesn't teach multiple gods, nor temple marriage nor becoming a god nor progression of spirits in heaven nor pre-existence. There is one thing the BoM teaches and that is, "you are saved after ALL you can do". So, spin things anyway you want for you are only fighting a battle that you can't win. Do you agree to every thing JS taught? If he spoke to the members during his life time, were those things NOT to be accepted as truth? Julie, you know so little about your own church history and this line of accusations against MY HUSBAND is wrong and YOU ARE THE ONE GUILTY OF BEARING FALSE WITNESS AND LYING!

[BigJulie]

[SIZE=3]What is so sad Julie is that there is no Mormon doctrine in the BOM.

And this is the one reason that you are your husband James will never accurately be able to portray my faith. You believe my scriptures and my doctrine are two separate things. You are wrong.

But thanks for at least admitting that you cannot find and will not ever be able to prove your accusations using our scriptures.

Oh, and I know quite a bit about our history. I don't think you know that much about your history. The truth is, this is why I claim your hypocrisy in the matter. You set a standard for my beliefs that you do not make with yourself.

[James Banta]

[BigJulie;156460]In other words, you can't. Are you going to apologize now? You attributed things to me I never "confessed"---not only do you bear false witness against my religion, you bear false witness against me personally. You can't find that I "confessed" to believe in "three Gods". The burden of proof lies with you. You made the accusations. Prove it. You can't and you know it.

Are you saying that Joseph Smith over the pulpit taught false doctrine? I will apologize if you can tell me that Smith lied about there being 3 Gods. I will apologize if you tell me, and the world that he was teaching false doctrine when he said that there are three Gods. That you are one of those that can contradict his insistence that there are three. Admit that he lied about being a polygamist insisting that he only had one wife.. That he lied about never telling the story of the first vision any other way than how it is recorded in the PofGP.. In short admit that he was as big of a liar as you believe I am.. Oh and you have to tell your bishop these thing the next time you need to go in for a annual temple recommend interview. If you can get to the stake president after that interview tell him too.. I am sure your temple attendance days will be over..


In fact, you even allude to our scriptures with this: ...and then you go on trying to spin your spin to make your point as if the Book of Mormon testimony that I believe does not stand today.

If Smith was a false prophet then the BofM is just as much part of his lie as anything else he said.. If he lied to the church about his polygamy, about who God is then how can you trust the BofM or any of the unique mormon scripture? You can't, because a liar wrote them!


The scripture in the Book of Mormon reads So, as I stated, as this is the scripture I confess to believe----one you know I believe and you dismiss it--well, you know you are bearing false witness. You can't find that I "confess" to what you say, you are aware of what the Book of Mormon states, and then you try to shift the burden to me.


By insisting that the founder of the LDS church didn't teach that there are three Gods, even after being shown where that is stated in your own church history. You are the one that needs to take care of falling into condemnation of 2 Nephi 9:34. I ask you to either believe what Smith taught each and every time he stood up to teach the church whether that be in the LDS scripture he wrote or in his recorded sermons. I am not asking that every word he ever spoke to be used as scripture, Not at all just those he spoke when teaching and preaching to the church. If you can't do that I say that you are in denial, You deny that he was a prophet and that anything he said is subject to being as false as the story of his first vision.. After all the official version is much different to that which was recorded in his own handwriting.. You aren't s t u p i d. You know that these things are there for all to see and read. You know that Smith taught such things.. It's all right there.. If he is a prophet then he wouldn't teach error as basic as to what the nature of God is and yet there it is.. He did just that..

This is your burden.. You have to either show that Smith didn't say these things or you have to reject him, that is if you are willing to agree with him that there are three Gods. That it is right to live in polygamy, and to try to keep that SIN secret from the church and even his own wife. Remember that the 132nd section of the D&C that the first wife must be asked to accept that kind of marriage and a man isn't free to do so until she is given the opportunity to accept it as God's form of marriage (D&C 132:65). All LDS that claim Smith to be a prophet of God must deal with these issues.. YOU HAVEN'T DONE SO.. You want it both ways, he is a prophet but he is just a man too so that he can live in sin, and lie while he is teaching the church and still be a man of God.. Guess what NO ONE CAN DO THAT , NO ONE! IHS jim

[The Pheonix]

Not sure what you mean by that last sentence, Phoenix? Is the "we" a general we, or do you mean the LDS Church?

Not sure which post you are asking about, but "we" is usually used generally speaking. Do you remember which post or the context? I do not want to misunderstood.

[BigJulie]

Are you saying that Joseph Smith over the pulpit taught false doctrine?

I am saying that if you can't comprehend what Joseph Smith taught over the pulpit in such a way that you can back it with our scriptures, than you don't understand fully what Joseph Smith taught.

[The Pheonix]

Calvinism is a "man-made" idea....That while it may be made up of bad conclusions of a few Christians, they are still conclusions that do not effect one way or the other the salvation of a person.
Calvinism is a crashed idea that makes a person's witness less strong.
But no one ever landed in Hell over the question.

In fact, the open and honest dis-unity seen within the Body of Christ over the question of Calvinism is what many (in the world of the CULTS)wish they had within their own religion.

People in the CULTS must look at the way Christians are so free to openly disagree with even their own church's leadership based on our freedom of thought, that they got to think of their own religion as being in need of the fresh air running though the debates between Christians.

So there is no harm at all in the different voices heard speaking out on Calvinism within the Christian church....


Mormonism is way more serious.
Mormonism is a man-made idea that feeds into the lies of Satan and will cause "****ation".


.

This is true, it is a recipe that was created by Satan and cooked up in Hell's Kitchen. :)

[Libby]

Not sure which post you are asking about, but "we" is usually used generally speaking. Do you remember which post or the context? I do not want to misunderstood.

Sorry, I should have quoted you.

It was this one:


Here is how I have found this idea gets sticks.

Denominations do not matter, until you disagree in debate, more importantly apologetics. Then the many denominations are no longer one Church.

People can say what they like, but when it comes to a "unity of Faith", we have down, we have made it a science.

I didn't quite get the meaning of that last sentence.

[Billyray]

This is true, it is a recipe that was created by Satan and cooked up in Hell's Kitchen.
Do you think you can back up that claim? Or are you simply repeating something that you overheard and ran with it?

Let's start with this one. Can you tell me what this means from a Mormon perspective?

Romans 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

[neverending]

And this is the one reason that you are your husband James will never accurately be able to portray my faith. You believe my scriptures and my doctrine are two separate things. You are wrong.

But thanks for at least admitting that you cannot find and will not ever be able to prove your accusations using our scriptures.

Oh, and I know quite a bit about our history. I don't think you know that much about your history. The truth is, this is why I claim your hypocrisy in the matter. You set a standard for my beliefs that you do not make with yourself.

More false accusations? When did I EVER admit that I could not find and was not able to prove the truths James and I both have posted about Mormonism and not using your scriptures. Unfortunately you are wrong because what is written within your standard works tells the world and you what your believe, so is that not doctrine? There is one thing in your BoM that says, "The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one God". (11 Nephi 31:21) Then you must add the little snippet to say, "in purpose." This had to be done in order to make everything else make sense and follow the doctrines of your church. What is written in the Bible, the words of Christ are scripture but is also doctrine for Christians, it teaches the world what Christians believe, so is this not both scripture and doctrine? I have to say YES! The two go hand in hand Julie. Your logic is flawed so bad, it's not funny. Your church ignores that one VERY important part of the BoM. So I again say that it does not teach your doctrines as the Bible teaches mine.

[Billyray]

I am saying that if you can't comprehend what Joseph Smith taught over the pulpit in such a way that you can back it with our scriptures, than you don't understand fully what Joseph Smith taught.
But you are ***uming that Joseph and Brigham actually agreed with your own scriptures. In many instances this is not the case.

[BigJulie]

But you are ***uming that Joseph and Brigham actually agreed with your own scriptures. In many instances this is not the case.

With the scriptures that were revealed to them? Those ones?

[Billyray]

With the scriptures that were revealed to them? Those ones?
I am saying that Joseph and Brigham taught a lot of things that were not in your own scriptures.

[BigJulie]

I am saying that Joseph and Brigham taught a lot of things that were not in your own scriptures.
So, do you think that what they taught was congruent with what was revealed to them through God or not?

[BigJulie]

More false accusations? When did I EVER admit that I could not find and was not able to prove the truths James and I both have posted about Mormonism and not using your scriptures.

Your exact words:

What is so sad Julie is that there is no Mormon doctrine in the BOM.

But you can prove me wrong. Just go ahead---do a scripture sermon on our beliefs as you describe them--use all scriptures. Let's see what you can pull together.

(For those who don't know---BOM is her way of saying Book of Mormon)

Okay ---how reliable do you think someone is regarding Mormonism who claims that there is " no Mormon doctrine" in the Book of Mormon? :)

[RealFakeHair]

Your exact words:


But you can prove me wrong. Just go ahead---do a scripture sermon on our beliefs as you describe them--use all scriptures. Let's see what you can pull together.
Where in the Book of Mormon is the temple endowment mention?

[Billyray]

So, do you think that what they taught was congruent with what was revealed to them through God or not?
Certainly not consistent with what the Bible teaches, but since you mean lds scriptures in many cases they were not in agreement.

[BigJulie]

Certainly not consistent with what the Bible teaches, but since you mean lds scriptures in many cases they were not in agreement.

Once again---if you can not understand our history in light of our revealed truths (scriptures) given to those same men, then you certainly do not understand my beliefs.

It is like claiming that you have seen a tusk and therefore claim to understand the elephant when you yourself acknowledge that the one does not appear "in agreement" with the other.

[Billyray]

Once again---if you can not understand our history in light of our revealed truths (scriptures) given to those same men, then you certainly do not understand my beliefs.


BigJ I was LDS and know your history. Bottom line is that Joseph and Brigham occasionally taught things that were not consistent with lds standard works.

[James Banta]

Once again---if you can not understand our history in light of our revealed truths (scriptures) given to those same men, then you certainly do not understand my beliefs.

It is like claiming that you have seen a tusk and therefore claim to understand the elephant when you yourself acknowledge that the one does not appear "in agreement" with the other.

Come on Julie stop bearing false witness.. We all know the doctrine of mormonism here.. We know that your god is a glorified man, He BECAME a God through His own obedience to laws and ordinances.. Your God changes in what He can or will do.. Nephi knew that if God gave a commandment God would make obedience to keep the commandment.. He was able to walk into Jerusalem and recover the br*** plates.. But later mere men of the Missouri mobs were able to make God take back his commandment to build the Temple in Far West.. Guess He forgot how to make it possible to keep His commandments..

The God of the Bible is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.. He is not three God But one.. He is the God that has BEEN GOD from everlasting and will remain the only God to everlasting.. His salvation is given to those whom He will according to His grace and knowledge based on who has or will have Faith in the Jesus of the Bible.. Jesus speaking of the Father said that He is Spirit.. He also told us that a spirit doesn't have a flesh and bone body. The Holy Spirit reveal through Paul that Jesus is the image of the INVISIBLE God.. But the LDS seems to believe that the Father has a body as tangible as man's. I have seen you belittle the teaching that Jesus was made to be sin so that we can be made the Righteousness of God in Him.. You must believe the BofA that teaches Gods but deny the scripture that teaches that the Lord our God is one Lord..

This is when you faith in Smith is threatened you attack those that come with the message, a message you can see so clearly. The Bible doesn't support mormonism. Not even in the person of Jesus. Never is He called our heavenly elder brother, but He is call the Mighty God, the everlasting Father.. IHS jim

[neverending]

Your exact words:


But you can prove me wrong. Just go ahead---do a scripture sermon on our beliefs as you describe them--use all scriptures. Let's see what you can pull together.

(For those who don't know---BOM is her way of saying Book of Mormon)

Okay ---how reliable do you think someone is regarding Mormonism who claims that there is " no Mormon doctrine" in the Book of Mormon? :)

NOW HEAR THIS!! THERE IS NO LDS DOCTRINES WITHIN THE BoM! Julie, does your BoM teach that people must be married in a temple to gain exaltation, or married in a temple at all? What about priesthood? Does it teach baptism for the dead? Does it teach polygamy, it actually TAUGHT AGAINST IT!! Does it teach that God was once a man, or that Jesus is our elder brother & the spirit brother of Satan? That Jesus wasn't always God? Doesn't teach 3 degrees of heaven, nor progression nor pre-existence. Seems to me that if anyone were wanting to know the doctrines taught by the LDS, reading the BoM will not do it, nope in order to really find out what the LDS doctrines are you'd have to read the D&C and the PoGP.

I find the LDS Church deceptive in the way it sends children out into their mission field, hand out their BoM telling people who show interest in their church to read it and pray about it and yet, this book is fiction and doesn't tell anyone what the LDS believe. If one wants to know the real meat of Mormonism again they'd have to go to the D&C and PoGP. Really sad, like the Jehovah Witnesses with their own Bible (Green Dragon). They too are deceptive. A cult will always show itself sooner or later with many being fooled. The Apostle Paul warned Christians of his day against those who preach ANOTHER gospel.....Mormonism is just that

[BigJulie]

[SIZE=3]NOW HEAR THIS!! THERE IS NO LDS DOCTRINES WITHIN THE BoM!

And so you don't believe you can back your comments with our scriptures--as you believe our doctrines are not there, right? That is my point. If you don't see anything Joseph Smith teachings in light of truths revealed to Him, you don't understand our doctrines. As I said to Billyray, it is like coming across a tusk and thinking you know the elephant. And you don't. If you want--teach our doctrines USING our scriptures--then you will know you are teaching what we believe.

[BigJulie]

Come on Julie stop bearing false witness..
I'm not. To tell the truth is to tell the whole truth. When you do not do that, you bear false witness. And you continue to do so. Are you going to apologize for saying that I "confess" a belief in which I don't?

[BigJulie]

BigJ I was LDS and know your history. Bottom line is that Joseph and Brigham occasionally taught things that were not consistent with lds standard works.

They occasionally taught things that were not consistent with the standard works? (According to you.) So, Billyray---if they were not consistent (as you see it)---which doctrines do we hold to?

[BigJulie]

Come on Julie stop bearing false witness.. We all know the doctrine of mormonism here.. We know that your god is a glorified man, He BECAME a God through His own obedience to laws and ordinances.. James., does LDS doctrine teach that Jesus Christ was part of the Godhead prior to coming to earth?


The God of the Bible is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.. He is not three God But one.. He is the God that has BEEN GOD from everlasting and will remain the only God to everlasting.. James, have you given me scripture from the Book of Mormon that says this very thing?

[James Banta]

And so you don't believe you can back your comments with our scriptures--as you believe our doctrines are not there, right? That is my point. If you don't see anything Joseph Smith teachings in light of truths revealed to Him, you don't understand our doctrines. As I said to Billyray, it is like coming across a tusk and thinking you know the elephant. And you don't. If you want--teach our doctrines USING our scriptures--then you will know you are teaching what we believe.

I already did,.. Your scripture teaches that there are GODS, NOT GOD.. Seems that you won't believe the Plan of salvation taught by the LDS as scripture even though it was created in the mind of Smith.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

I already did,.. Your scripture teaches that there ate GODS, NOT GOD.. Seems that you won't believe the Plan of salvation taught by the LDS as scripture even though it was created in the mind of Smith.. IHS jim

The Bible uses the word Elohim which literally means gods. The Bible teaches that God is a God of gods. So far, your scripture teaches there are gods. But please, go ahead and find where I "confess" to believing in three Gods. Your accusation. I am still waiting for you to prove it.

Oh, but I did notice you did not answer my question regarding your understanding of LDS beliefs.

Once again:


James., does LDS doctrine teach that Jesus Christ was part of the Godhead prior to coming to earth?

And:

The God of the Bible is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.. He is not three God But one.. He is the God that has BEEN GOD from everlasting and will remain the only God to everlasting..

James, have you given me scripture from the Book of Mormon that says this very thing?

[Billyray]

They occasionally taught things that were not consistent with the standard works? (According to you.) So, Billyray---if they were not consistent (as you see it)---which doctrines do we hold to?
I would recommend that you hold to the Bible and reject all of the other books that you consider scripture--that is my best recommendation for you. But I know that is not what you are asking so here is my take on this issue. Mormonism is unique in that they claim to have living prophets who speak directly with God and guide their people. However if a prophet or leader of the church says something that is controversial the standard lds mantra is to ignore the prophet or leader and stick with the standard works. The problem with this concept is that you have now undermined your own living prophets--which is the unique claim of mormonism--and since what they say is not official scripture then you can't place your trust in your own living prophets.

[BigJulie]

I would recommend that you hold to the Bible and reject all of the other books that you consider scripture--that is my best recommendation for you. But I know that is not what you are asking so here is my take on this issue. Mormonism is unique in that they claim to have living prophets who speak directly with God and guide their people. On the one hand if a prophet or leader says something that is out of line the standard mantra is to ignore the prophet or leader and stick with the standard works. The problem with this concept is that you have now undermined your own living prophets--which is the unique claim of mormonism--and since what they say is not official scripture then you can't place your trust in your own living prophets.

Actually, this is what you think when in reality, if you misunderstood something of the past, then there is no problem. On the other hand, if the prophet misunderstood something in the past, this is also not a problem, because God does correct His prophets--as can be seen in the Bible as well. I think we even have a donkey helping out with that at one point.

The difference is really that we believe in living prophets (as well as dead ones), but you only believe in dead ones. And those things that are part of your history that you don't agree with, well--you just pretend is it not part of your history or that history does not pertain to your beliefs.

[Billyray]

The difference is really that we believe in living prophets (as well as dead ones), but you only believe in dead ones.

But I just showed you that you don't believe in your living prophets. I gave you the example from Brigham Young who taught about blood atonement and you don't believe this. As I said you claim living prophets then you undermine them and don't believe what they say.



And those things that are part of your history that you don't agree with, well--you just pretend is it not part of your history or that history does not pertain to your beliefs.
Christianity and mormonism have different claims in this regard so what is a criticism for mormonism isn't one for Christianity. Let me explain. I can criticize the teachings of Brigham Young because he claimed to be a prophet and the members believe that he was a prophet. However if you denied living prophets then in fairness I could only judge you by your standard works. For Christians our standard is the Bible.

[James Banta]

The Bible uses the word Elohim which literally means gods. The Bible teaches that God is a God of gods. So far, your scripture teaches there are gods. But please, go ahead and find where I "confess" to believing in three Gods. Your accusation. I am still waiting for you to prove it.

Oh, but I did notice you did not answer my question regarding your understanding of LDS beliefs.

Once again:



And:

Is it not true, even in mormonism, that Jesus created (formed) this world? Does that not make Him God (Elohim)? And yet the Father is God (Elohim), as is the Holy Spirit. Three persons all called God.. And yet Moses by the Holy Spirit clearly states that YHWH, our ELOHIM is one YHWH (Deut 6:4).. How can this be? The LDS like you chose to ignore The teaching given through Moses in Deut 6:4 and hold Gen 1:26 "Then God [Elohim] said, Let us make man in our image, in our likeness." Also given through Moses.

Can't there be a way to believe both scriptures? That would bring the doctrine of the Trinity up as the only way this can be done.. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three persons, yet are one God.. So the US, the OUR in Gen 1:26 are the three persons of God and yet their singularity is shouted in Deut 6:4.. Must we go through the fact and the supportive verses again that prove that each member of the Godhead is God? Even in that Jesus confirms the doctrine Moses was given that the YHWH our Elohim is one YHWH..

What did Joseph Smith teach as to the meaning of the words Elohim? Ye said "we have three Gods, at least they are plural.. Either he was right and we should all believe in him. Or he was wrong and only those who have allowed his half truth of God's nature fill their mind can believe him.. The rest of us believe God as He explains His nature that He YHWH, our Lord our God Elohim, is one YHWH.. Since it was taught and repeated by Jesus that is His truth. Since Elohim is a plural noun does that reflect three or more Gods. No It can't and keep the whole of the Bible true. So if you believe Smith you must believe in his teaching and hold that there are three Gods.. You either do so or admit that you are not a TBM but only one that will follow the prophets but not all the way..

You asked "does LDS doctrine teach that Jesus Christ was part of the Godhead prior to coming to earth?" The answer "it does part of the time but there was a time that he was not so".. So you can believe the half truth of mormonism again on this point and teach that He was divine in that state.. Never mind that He could skip all the required steps to receive exaltation, He just did..

Since there was no preexistence for any being that would p*** through a mortal state, other than Jesus, my first answer was correct: "The God of the Bible is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.. He is not three Gods But one.. He is the God that has BEEN GOD from everlasting and will remain the only God to everlasting."

Have you not seen what the BofM teaches in 2 Nephi 31:21? There is no "In purpose" in that statement. It is clear that Smith taught that the three Persons of the Trinity are one God.. It is even used in the witness statement of the three witnesses (that Smith wrote and had them sign) Look for yourself it says "And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen." Again there is no "In purpose" stated or implied in that statement.. Then in Moroni 7:22 It is clearly stated that God is from everlasting to everlasting. And yet Smith taught that God became God.. That we have to learn how to become Gods ourselves (History of the Church Vol 6, Http://www.boap.org/LDS/History/History_of_the_Church/ search "learn how" to read the full context of Smith sermon..

Smith definitely teaches a different God than is written of in the BofM.. The God there is Triune. The God there has been God from everlasting and will continue to be the Only God to everlasting.. Smith reinvented his God and as the Armenians would say fell from grace. He walked away from the true and living God into the arms of false gods (Abra 4:1).. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

Is it not true, even in mormonism, that Jesus created (formed) this world? Does that not make Him God (Elohim)? And yet the Father is God (Elohim), as is the Holy Spirit. Three persons all called God.. And yet Moses by the Holy Spirit clearly states that YHWH, our ELOHIM is one YHWH (Deut 6:4).. How can this be? The LDS like you chose to ignore The teaching given through Moses in Deut 6:4 and hold Gen 1:26 "Then God [Elohim] said, Let us make man in our image, in our likeness." Also given through Moses.

Can't there be a way to believe both scriptures? That would bring the doctrine of the Trinity up as the only way this can be done.. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three persons, yet are one God.. So the US, the OUR in Gen 1:26 are the three persons of God and yet their singularity is shouted in Deut 6:4.. Must we go through the fact and the supportive verses again that prove that each member of the Godhead is God? Even in that Jesus confirms the doctrine Moses was given that the YHWH our Elohim is one YHWH..

What did Joseph Smith teach as to the meaning of the words Elohim? Ye said "we have three Gods, at least they are plural.. Either he was right and we should all believe in him. Or he was wrong and only those who have allowed his half truth of God's nature fill their mind can believe him.. The rest of us believe God as He explains His nature that He YHWH, our Lord our God Elohim, is one YHWH.. Since it was taught and repeated by Jesus that is His truth. Since Elohim is a plural noun does that reflect three or more Gods. No It can't and keep the whole of the Bible true. So if you believe Smith you must believe in his teaching and hold that there are three Gods.. You either do so or admit that you are not a TBM but only one that will follow the prophets but not all the way..

You asked "does LDS doctrine teach that Jesus Christ was part of the Godhead prior to coming to earth?" The answer "it does part of the time but there was a time that he was not so".. So you can believe the half truth of mormonism again on this point and teach that He was divine in that state.. Never mind that He could skip all the required steps to receive exaltation, He just did..

Since there was no preexistence for any being that would p*** through a mortal state, other than Jesus, my first answer was correct: "The God of the Bible is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.. He is not three Gods But one.. He is the God that has BEEN GOD from everlasting and will remain the only God to everlasting."

Have you not seen what the BofM teaches in 2 Nephi 31:21? There is no "In purpose" in that statement. It is clear that Smith taught that the three Persons of the Trinity are one God.. It is even used in the witness statement of the three witnesses (that Smith wrote and had them sign) Look for yourself it says "And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen." Again there is no "In purpose" stated or implied in that statement.. Then in Moroni 7:22 It is clearly stated that God is from everlasting to everlasting. And yet Smith taught that God became God.. That we have to learn how to become Gods ourselves (History of the Church Vol 6, Http://www.boap.org/LDS/History/History_of_the_Church/ search "learn how" to read the full context of Smith sermon..

Smith definitely teaches a different God than is written of in the BofM.. The God there is Triune. The God there has been God from everlasting and will continue to be the Only God to everlasting.. Smith reinvented his God and as the Armenians would say fell from grace. He walked away from the true and living God into the arms of false gods (Abra 4:1).. IHS jim

As you say I "confess" believing in three Gods, please just cut and paste where I said it. I am still waiting.

[Billyray]

As you say I "confess" believing in three Gods, please just cut and paste where I said it. I am still waiting.

Actually you believe in many more than three gods. Which makes you a polytheist--again another reason to put you outside of mainstream Christianity.

[BigJulie]

Actually you believe in many more than three gods. Which makes you a polytheist--again another reason to put you outside of mainstream Christianity.

Okay, so now you are making another ***ertion. I am still waiting for James to back what he said.


I guess a polytheist to you is someone who believes in the existence of more than one god. Is that correct?

Does that make David a polytheist?

Psa 136:2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.

Or Moses?



Deu 10:17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

[Billyray]

Okay, so now you are making another ***ertion. I am still waiting for James to back what he said.


I guess a polytheist to you is someone who believes in the existence of more than one god. Is that correct?

You are a polytheist by definition. If you don't know what polytheist means I suggest you look it up in the dictionary.

[Billyray]

Does that make David a polytheist?


Or Moses?
If you weren't aware--the official Jewish position is that there is only one God. You on the other hand believe in many gods and by dictionary definition that makes you a polytheist. Just one more reason why Christians don't believe that mormons are Christian.

[BigJulie]

If you weren't aware--the official Jewish position is that there is only one God. You on the other hand believe in many gods and by dictionary definition that makes you a polytheist. Just one more reason why Christians don't believe that mormons are Christian.

If that is so, why do you think both David and Moses called their one God "God of gods"?

[James Banta]

If that is so, why do you think both David and Moses called their one God "God of gods"?

Both David and Moses were surrounded by people that believed in many gods.. They both in their remarks said that God is God even over these gods that were nothing more than the product of men's imaginations.. What did God say to Isaiah? He said, "Is there a God besides me, I know of no other God" (Isaiah 44:8). You like ALL believing LDS want to remove one verse from the Bible and make a religion out of it.. Because the genesis story includes all the persons of God and the plural word Elohim is used to describe Him you want it to mean there are three Gods when God reveals to Moses that the Lord our God is One Lord.. A statement that Jesus Himself taught.. Here you want to include the idols of Egypt and the Canaanites as Gods so as to try to prove there are many Gods.. All you do is deify idols.. That was the same thing that Paul ran into as he said that there are "So-called gods" as he taught that eating meat sacrificed to idols is nothing but meat.. But use these p***ages to make yourself feel good about your idolatry. As for me and my house we reject the teaching of other Gods and worship God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit We will reject the idea that there are three Gods or 10 million gods.. There is but one God who is our YHWH.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

If that is so, why do you think both David and Moses called their one God "God of gods"?
The official Jewish position is that there is only one God, not many gods like you believe. For some reason you can't seem to grasp this OR you are purposefully trying to misrepresent the Jewish faith in order to justify your false beliefs. BTW Moses wrote Deuteronomy.

Deut 6:4 4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

[BigJulie]

The official Jewish position is that there is only one God, not many gods like you believe. For some reason you can't seem to grasp this OR you are purposefully trying to misrepresent the Jewish faith in order to justify your false beliefs.

No, I am not misrepresenting the Jewish faith at all. How do you reconcile the fact that they can call God "God of gods' but only believe in one God, but you cannot do the same for the LDS faith?

Why do you think they call God, God of gods and yet believe in One God?

[Billyray]

No, I am not misrepresenting the Jewish faith at all.
Great. Then tell me if they believe that there is one God or many gods?

[Billyray]

How do you reconcile the fact that they can call God "God of gods' but only believe in one God, but you cannot do the same for the LDS faith?

Simple. The official Jewish position is that they believe that there is only one God. Whereas mormons believe that there are many gods. Jews are monotheistic and mormons are polytheistic.

Why are you having such a hard time with this BigJ? Or are you still trying to misrepresent their faith in order to justify your false beliefs.

[Billyray]

1 Chronicles 1626 For all the gods of the nations are idols, but the Lord made the heavens.

Are the "gods" in this verse real gods? I mean it says "gods" right therefore you think that these are real gods just like God.

[BigJulie]

Great. Then tell me if they believe that there is one God or many gods?

One God who is over all gods. At least that is how Moses and David referred to God.

[Billyray]

One God who is over all gods. At least that is how Moses and David referred to God.
So do they believe in one God or many gods?

[BigJulie]

1 Chronicles 1626 For all the gods of the nations are idols, but the Lord made the heavens.

Are the "gods" in this verse real gods? I mean it says "gods" right therefore you think that these are real gods just like God.

Here is the KJV of it..
1Ch 16:25 For great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised: he also is to be feared above all gods.
1Ch 16:26 For all the gods of the people are idols: but the LORD made the heavens.

So, you believe when he is called "God of gods"--that He is God over all the idols?--or at least that is what David and Moses are saying?

[Billyray]

Here is the KJV of it..
1Ch 16:25 For great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised: he also is to be feared above all gods.
1Ch 16:26 For all the gods of the people are idols: but the LORD made the heavens.

So, you believe when he is called "God of gods"--that He is God over all the idols?
There is one God and he is God over everything. Now are you going to answer my question?

1 Chronicles 1626 For all the gods of the nations are idols, but the Lord made the heavens.

Are the "gods" in this verse real gods? I mean it says "gods" right therefore you think that these are real gods just like God.

[BigJulie]

There is one God and he is God over everything. Now are you going to answer my question?

1 Chronicles 1626 For all the gods of the nations are idols, but the Lord made the heavens.

Are the "gods" in this verse real gods? I mean it says "gods" right therefore you think that these are real gods just like God.

I have always thought your idea of a "real" God is interesting. I think the term would be "true" God. In this verse it says "gods of the people"---which qualifies it. And because it does, when David or Moses call God, "God of gods"---do you think that they were saying, that God is God of idols?---as that seems to be how you interpret the word "gods" in every instance-- gods=idols, every time. I have heard other posters claim that "gods" can mean rulers or magistrates that God appointed.

[RealFakeHair]

Here is the KJV of it..
1Ch 16:25 For great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised: he also is to be feared above all gods.
1Ch 16:26 For all the gods of the people are idols: but the LORD made the heavens.

So, you believe when he is called "God of gods"--that He is God over all the idols?--or at least that is what David and Moses are saying?

I have never watched American Idol, so I have no idea how David or Moses felt!

[Billyray]

I have always thought your idea of a "real" God is interesting. I think the term would be "true" God. In this verse it says "gods of the people"---which qualifies it.
1 Chronicles 16:26 For all the gods of the nations are idols, but the Lord made the heavens.

So are you saying that the "gods" in this verse are real gods?

Where in this verse does it say "gods of the people"?

[Billyray]

I have always thought your idea of a "real" God is interesting.
Can you expand on this a little bit more for me.

[BigJulie]

1 Chronicles 16:26 For all the gods of the nations are idols, but the Lord made the heavens.

So are you saying that the "gods" in this verse are real gods?

Where in this verse does it say "gods of the people"?
Here is the KJV of it..
1Ch 16:25 For great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised: he also is to be feared above all gods.
1Ch 16:26 For all the gods of the people are idols: but the LORD made the heavens.

[BigJulie]

Can you expand on this a little bit more for me.

Well, in the Bible, the Hebrew word is elohim (but we have discussed this already)---which literally translates to "gods" and is used in many ways in the Bible. Elohim is used to denote God or idols or rulers and magistrates...but every time, the word is "elohim"---so the reader must decide based on content what "elohim" is referring to.

So, you use the term "real" God---, but I think of God more of the "true" God---as all others fall short. To me the opposite of false (as in false gods) is true. But you seem to take false to mean fake and therefore, the opposite is real. Yet, then are rulers who God appointed and called "gods' fake gods?

[Billyray]

Well, in the Bible, the Hebrew word is elohim (but we have discussed this already)---which literally translates to "gods" and is used in many ways in the Bible. Elohim is used to denote God or idols or rulers and magistrates...but every time, the word is "elohim"---so the reader must decide based on content what "elohim" is referring to.

So, you use the term "real" God---, but I think of God more of the "true" God---as all others fall short. To me the opposite of false (as in false gods) is true. But you seem to take false to mean fake and therefore, the opposite is real. Yet, then are rulers who God appointed and called "gods' fake gods?
But if there is only ONE God then everything else is by definition not a "real" god--it is either an idol or a man who is given the ***le of god etc.

So tell me do the Jews believe that there are many gods or just ONE God?

[Billyray]

Here is the KJV of it..
1Ch 16:25 For great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised: he also is to be feared above all gods.
1Ch 16:26 For all the gods of the people are idols: but the LORD made the heavens.
And you think that the "gods" noted in verse 25 is different than that used in verse 26?

[BigJulie]

But if there is only ONE God then everything else is by definition not a "real" god--it is either an idol or a man who is given the ***le of god etc.

So tell me do the Jews believe that there are many gods or just ONE God?


Jhn 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

So, by your definition, Christ then misspoke, right?

[Billyray]

Jhn 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

So, by your definition, Christ then misspoke, right?
Focus for a minute and answer my question.

So tell me do the Jews believe that there are many gods or just ONE God?

[BigJulie]

Focus for a minute and answer my question.

So tell me do the Jews believe that there are many gods or just ONE God?

I did. I said: (My exact quote)

One God who is over all gods. At least that is how Moses and David referred to God. You seem to believe this is an either or statement--either there are many gods OR there is ONE God---yet, Moses and David called God "God of gods" and Jesus Christ stated---which I also quoted: Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Therefore, it leaves me with the question for you which you are not answering. If you believe that there are either many gods or ONE God and that these two things cannot coexist....do you then believe that David and Moses then referred to God as God of idols, as that seems to be your only interpretation for "elohim".




:

[Billyray]

I did. I said: (My exact quote)
One God who is over all gods. At least that is how Moses and David referred to God.:
OK so you believe that the official Jewish position is that they believe in many gods. Fair enough let's see if you are right.

http://www.jewfaq.org/beliefs.htm
"G-d is one and unique"

Looks like you are wrong on this one. Do you want to correct your understanding of Jewish beliefs?

[Billyray]

Therefore, it leaves me with the question for you which you are not answering. If you believe that there are either many gods or ONE God and that these two things cannot coexist....do you then believe that David and Moses then referred to God as God of idols, as that seems to be your only interpretation for "elohim".

Actually I answered this for you but I will be happy to answer you again. There is one God and He is God over everything including false gods/idols.

[BigJulie]

Actually I answered this for you but I will be happy to answer you again. There is one God and He is God over everything including false gods/idols.

And to you, the term "gods" always refers to idols, correct?

[Billyray]

And to you, the term "gods" always refers to idols, correct?
Not always. The term is used for unrighteous judges in Psalm 82. And mormons believe that they are gods in utero and other people who claim they are gods.

[BigJulie]

Not always. The term is used for unrighteous judges in Psalm 82. And mormons believe that they are gods in utero and other people who claim they are gods.

Not always? Are there those whom God calls gods? And if so, when David or Moses called God, "God of gods"---are they referring to idols and/or those whom God calls gods who are not idols?

[Billyray]

Not always? Are there those whom God calls gods? And if so, when David or Moses called God, "God of gods"---are they referring to idols and/or those whom God calls gods who are not idols?
Some are idols as described in Deut and others are men who are referred to as gods such as Psalm 82.


OK so you believe that the official Jewish position is that they believe in many gods. Fair enough let's see if you are right.


http://www.jewfaq.org/beliefs.htm
"G-d is one and unique"

Looks like you are wrong on this one. Do you want to correct your understanding of Jewish beliefs?
Are you going to address this one or not?

[Billyray]

Not always? Are there those whom God calls gods? And if so, when David or Moses called God, "God of gods"---are they referring to idols and/or those whom God calls gods who are not idols?
I can only ***ume that you think that they are a god. Tell me more about these gods that you are speaking about. I want to hear more.

[BigJulie]

Some are idols as described in Deut and others are men who are referred to as gods such as Psalm 82.


Are you going to address this one or not?

Okay, so God is a God of gods whom He appoints and calls gods.

Of course Jews would think God is unique. So much so that when Christ came they could not accept him. But I did not a ask what Jews think today, I asked what Moses and David meant. You are the one who keeps claiming we should be able to read and think for ourselves. So, I am asking you---when Moses call God, God of gods---which "gods" do you think Moses was referring to?

[Billyray]

Okay, so God is a God of gods whom He appoints and calls gods.

And tell me exactly who are these gods that you are referring to so that we can further discuss them?

[Billyray]

So, I am asking you---when Moses call God, God of gods---which "gods" do you think Moses was referring to?
The p***age that you gave me in Deut Moses was speaking about idols.

1Ch 16:25 For great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised: he also is to be feared above all gods.
1Ch 16:26 For all the gods of the people are idols: but the LORD made the heavens.


The reference in the NT that quotes the OT--Psalms 82 is referring to unrighteous judges.

[Billyray]

Jhn 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

So, by your definition, Christ then misspoke, right?
Not at all--he is quoting Psalm 82 which are unrighteous judges who are called gods.

So tell me more about these "gods" in Psalm 82. I would love to hear more about them.

Psalm 82:1 KJV God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods
Psalm 82:1 NASB God takes His stand in His own congregation;He judges in the midst of the rulers.

Who is "God" in verse 1?

Who are "among the gods" in verse 1?

[RealFakeHair]

The problem is, if a Pharisee used the test that Alan gave, without the guidance of the Holy Ghost (just what they already know and is congruent with what they already believe), he could not believe in Jesus Christ--which is exactly what happened. Therefore, Alan's test does not work.

If you read the NT, the Pharisees believed they were "testing" Christ against the Bible they understood. Because they lacked the real meaning of the teachings and thought they understood the teachings, Christ failed their test and was crucified for it.
So tell me BigJulie, was the mormon holy ghost guiding Joseph Smith jr. When he went about hitting on young girls?

[Billyray]

Jhn 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

So, by your definition, Christ then misspoke, right?
Mormon Apostle James Talmage said the following in "Jesus the Christ"

". . .Divinely Appointed Judges Called ‘gods.’ In Psalm 82:6, judges invested by divine appointment are called ‘gods.’ To this the Savior referred in His reply to the Jews in Solomon’s Porch. Judges so authorized officiated as the representatives of God and are honored by the exalted***le ‘gods."


He was a mormon apostle supposedly inspired by one of your gods so he must be right. Agree BigJ?

[BigJulie]

Mormon Apostle James Talmage said the following in "Jesus the Christ"

". . .Divinely Appointed Judges Called ‘gods.’ In Psalm 82:6, judges invested by divine appointment are called ‘gods.’ To this the Savior referred in His reply to the Jews in Solomon’s Porch. Judges so authorized officiated as the representatives of God and are honored by the exalted***le ‘gods."


He was a mormon apostle supposedly inspired by one of your gods so he must be right. Agree BigJ?

I didn't ask you if by my definition Christ misspoke, but according to your definition of what "gods' mean---but it seems like you have back-peddled from your original stance "gods" means idols.

[BigJulie]

Not at all--he is quoting Psalm 82 which are unrighteous judges who are called gods.

So tell me more about these "gods" in Psalm 82. I would love to hear more about them.

Psalm 82:1 KJV God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods
Psalm 82:1 NASB God takes His stand in His own congregation;He judges in the midst of the rulers.

Who is "God" in verse 1?

Who are "among the gods" in verse 1?

So, to you "elohim" or gods not only can be used to mean idols, but also rulers, right? And when Moses or David stated that God is God of gods, it could mean that he is the Ruler of rulers...correct?

[Billyray]

So, to you "elohim" or gods not only can be used to mean idols, but also rulers, right? And when Moses or David stated that God is God of gods, it could mean that he is the Ruler of rulers...correct?
I answered this already specifically addressing the verses that you gave me.

The p***age that you gave me in Deut Moses was speaking about idols.

1Ch 16:25 For great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised: he also is to be feared above all gods.
1Ch 16:26 For all the gods of the people are idols: but the LORD made the heavens.


The reference in the NT that quotes the OT--Psalms 82 is referring to unrighteous judges.

[Billyray]

So, to you "elohim" or gods not only can be used to mean idols, but also rulers, right? And when Moses or David stated that God is God of gods, it could mean that he is the Ruler of rulers...correct?

Not at all--he is quoting Psalm 82 which are unrighteous judges who are called gods.

So tell me more about these "gods" in Psalm 82. I would love to hear more about them.

Psalm 82:1 KJV God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods
Psalm 82:1 NASB God takes His stand in His own congregation;He judges in the midst of the rulers.

Who is "God" in verse 1?

Who are "among the gods" in verse 1?
BigJ this is a discussion board perhaps you could join the discussion and actually answer some of the questions that I have given you. How about starting with the two above.

[Billyray]

Jhn 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

So, by your definition, Christ then misspoke, right?

Mormon Apostle James Talmage said the following in "Jesus the Christ"

". . .Divinely Appointed Judges Called ‘gods.’ In Psalm 82:6, judges invested by divine appointment are called ‘gods.’ To this the Savior referred in His reply to the Jews in Solomon’s Porch. Judges so authorized officiated as the representatives of God and are honored by the exalted***le ‘gods."


He was a mormon apostle supposedly inspired by one of your gods so he must be right. Agree BigJ?

BigJ what do you make of James Talmage's quote about the verse your quoted?

[BigJulie]

BigJ what do you make of James Talmage's quote about the verse your quoted?

Just what it says. I think you are trying to change from the fact that you yourself acknowledge that believing in "gods" does not necessarily make someone a polytheist if those gods are subject to God.

[BigJulie]

BigJ this is a discussion board perhaps you could join the discussion and actually answer some of the questions that I have given you. How about starting with the two above.

Oh, I thought that was obvious--this verse has many meanings---as often God's words do. First--on the surface, they are those who God called and appointed to be leaders and rulers in the church. Second, they are the offspring of God --which is why the next verses states "and children of the Most High"---who had forgotten who they were and were such behaving a way unbecoming both a leader and a child of God. God reminds these leaders that while they are called of God to be "gods"---that ALL are children of the Most High. This verse calls these "children of God" or "gods' into remembrance or at least asks them to remember and begin acting accordingly. He reminds them of their mortality and that they "being gods" fell like Adam and will die like Adam.

Is that enough of an explanation for you?

[Billyray]

Oh, I thought that was obvious--this verse has many meanings---as often God's words do. First--on the surface, they are those who God called and appointed to be leaders and rulers in the church. Second, they are the offspring of God --which is why the next verses states "and children of the Most High"---who had forgotten who they were and were such behaving a way unbecoming both a leader and a child of God.

This verse calls these "children of God" or "gods' into remembrance or at least asks them to remember and begin acting accordingly.

Psalm 82:1 KJV God [Father or Son] standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods [humans]


Alright so the phrase "among the gods" refers to humans. Since you believe that we are all the literal spiritual children of God and his wife, do you think that we are all gods?

[BigJulie]

Psalm 82:1 KJV God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods
Psalm 82:1 NASB God takes His stand in His own congregation;He judges in the midst of the rulers.

Who is "God" in verse 1? So is this the Father or the Son?

Who are "among the gods" in verse 1? These are humans that are called gods.


So since you believe that we are all literal spiritual children of God and his wife. Do you think that we are all gods?

Not in the way you are thinking. In Abraham we learn that God is greater than all. Unlike us, He is perfect and perfect in His nature. While there is no revelation regarding God having a "wife"---we, by reason, perceive that to be a Father, there is also a mother. I think we are the only religion that would state that women are as essential in God's creation as man. It appears that most Christians think that when God perfects our bodies, he also divorces them and sterilizes them.

[Billyray]

Not in the way you are thinking. In Abraham we learn that God is greater than all. Unlike us, He is perfect and perfect in His nature. While there is no revelation regarding God having a "wife"---we, by reason, perceive that to be a Father, there is also a mother. I think we are the only religion that would state that women are as essential in God's creation as man. It appears that most Christians think that when God perfects our bodies, he also divorces them and sterilizes them.
But you are using this section of scripture to show that there are many gods. So are those in verse one gods or are they humans like I have said and your own apostle James Talmage has said in "Jesus the Christ"? You are not being very clear in your answer.

[BigJulie]

But you are using this section of scripture to show that there are many gods. So are those in verse one gods or are they humans like I have said and your own apostle James Talmage has said in "Jesus the Christ"? You are not being very clear in your answer.

Well, seeing as we believe that "humans" is only one stage of our existence---I think you may perceive James Talmage too narrowly. You forget that according to scripture, divine appointment happened before we were "humans"---as with Abraham or those who are foreordained.

If God appointed (foreordained) men to be gods prior to their birth or in the eternities, I think he would recognize them as leaders before their birth (in the eternities) as well. Then the idea of God standing in the "congregation of the mighty" would then make more sense.

[Billyray]

Well, seeing as we believe that "humans" is only one stage of our existence---I think you may perceive James Talmage too narrowly. You forget that according to scripture, divine appointment happened before we were "humans"---as with Abraham or those who are foreordained.

If God appointed (foreordained) men to be gods prior to their birth or in the eternities, I think he would recognize them as leaders before their birth (in the eternities) as well. Then the idea of God standing in the "congregation of the mighty" would then make more sense.
So you would consider me a god then, right?

[BigJulie]

So you would consider me a god then, right?

No, but you appear to seem to think so. You seem to know what is scripture and what isn't based on ...what again? And you know the correct understanding of that scripture based on...what again?

So, what do you perceive Psalms 82 to be...what are these "gods" to you---you say men appointed to be leaders by God? Is that right? Do you see yourself as a leader appointed by God?

[Billyray]

No
You believe that children of god are gods and I am a literal spirit child of god and his wife. So why am I not a god?

[Billyray]

So, what do you perceive Psalms 82 to be...what are these "gods" to you---you say men appointed to be leaders by God?
They are unrighteous judges.

[BigJulie]

They are unrighteous judges.

Do you believe they were appointed by God?

[James Banta]

One God who is over all gods. At least that is how Moses and David referred to God.

Are these gods of who the Lord is God? Whether they be made of stone, wood, or cradled in the hearts of men? Are they not formed in what God has already created (Colossians 1:16).. These are then not Gods but the formation of what God has already made to reflect the evil in men's hearts. Men like Smith as he invented the idea that Gods other than YHWH exist.. For you to believe anything other than Godis the creator of all things and anything that is formed through or by His creation are also His is to take away from His glory, His Lordship and is based in pure evil.. Is that what you are proclaiming here pure evil? IHS jim

[Billyray]

Do you believe they were appointed by God?
Not necessarily.


ESV Study Bible

". . .82:1–4 The Task of the “Gods.” The first section gives the *** description of human rulers (the gods), especially those who rule God's covenant people:they are to give justice to the weak and the fatherless, and rescue the weak and the needy*. *. *. from the hand of the wicked (vv. 3–4). Far too often, however, they judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked (i. e., people who take the lead in opposing God's purpose and oppressing others). The words of the psalm do not specify whether the rulers are Israelites, or Gentiles ruling Israel as a subject state (as in the Babylonian or Persian Empires). Both the ideal Davidic king in Psalm 72 and the ideal Gentile ruler in Prov. 31:1–9 are called to protect the powerless from those who would oppress them. Certainly the people of God should aim to embody this most clearly. . ."

[Billyray]

You believe that children of god are gods and I am a literal spirit child of god and his wife. So why am I not a god?
Bump for BigJ

[BigJulie]

Bump for BigJ

In this context, we were talking of those who are called to be leaders. You are not.

[Billyray]

In this context, we were talking of those who are called to be leaders. You are not.
When I was called to go on a mission was I a god?

[BigJulie]

When I was called to go on a mission was I a god?

No. Billyray, I know you think you are---but, no. ;)

Those leaders, such as Abraham, were foreordained. I personally wouldn't qualify you as such; you seem to do better at tearing down than building up.

[James Banta]

No. Billyray, I know you think you are---but, no. ;)

Those leaders, such as Abraham, were foreordained. I personally wouldn't qualify you as such; you seem to do better at tearing down than building up.

False! Billy has again and again tried to point you to the cross where Jesus would cleanse you and make you clean enough to approach the throne of God with confidence. Billy only pulls down error and false teaching. He pulls down nothing that is Biblical, the truth of God.. If you see your ideas as being torn down by Billy then they need to come down so truth can take their place.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

False! Billy has again and again tried to point you to the cross where Jesus would cleanse you and make you clean enough to approach the throne of God with confidence. Billy only pulls down error and false teaching. He pulls down nothing that is Biblical, the truth of God.. If you see your ideas as being torn down by Billy then they need to come down so truth can take their place.. IHS jim

James, remember where Paul teaches us that without charity, it doesn't matter how much you "speak with the tongues of angels."

I don't think you realizy how much you or Bilyray have impressed me with how uncharitable you are. As I said, if heaven was filled with people like you, I would prefer not to be there.

[James Banta]

James, remember where Paul teaches us that without charity, it doesn't matter how much you "speak with the tongues of angels."

I don't think you realizy how much you or Bilyray have impressed me with how uncharitable you are. As I said, if heaven was filled with people like you, I would prefer not to be there.

Julie as much as you would like a pat on the head and soft words that "All is well" that be a lie.. All is not well and telling you the ie that it is is NOT LOVING.. There is no love in allowing a wonderful person like you to blindly march down the wide road into the Lake of fire.. So Billy and I pull down error where it exists and in so doing allow the light of Jesus to fill those place hidden by that error.. In opening up the view of truth that is Jesus we are showing you the best love we can.. We show you the Way to life. What is unloving about that?

As far as being in heaven with people like me and Billy, if things remain as they are with you as they are now that won't be an issue.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

Julie as much as you would like a pat on the head and soft words that "All is well" that be a lie.. All is not well and telling you the ie that it is is NOT LOVING.. There is no love in allowing a wonderful person like you to blindly march down the wide road into the Lake of fire.. So Billy and I pull down error where it exists and in so doing allow the light of Jesus to fill those place hidden by that error.. In opening up the view of truth that is Jesus we are showing you the best love we can.. We show you the Way to life. What is unloving about that?

As far as being in heaven with people like me and Billy, if things remain as they are with you as they are now that won't be an issue.. IHS jim

I am not expecting a pat on the head. What I do see is that I do know my Savior, I am guided by the Holy Ghost. What I experience here is not correction or reproof, but merely division and hypocrisy.

[neverending]

James, remember where Paul teaches us that without charity, it doesn't matter how much you "speak with the tongues of angels."

I don't think you realizy how much you or Bilyray have impressed me with how uncharitable you are. As I said, if heaven was filled with people like you, I would prefer not to be there.

Julie, what you don't seem to understand about heaven is that we will NOT be like we are here. No longer feeling pain nor sorrow. We will no longer think as we do here i.e. bad thoughts, sad thoughts; all those things will be gone. God has promised that He would wipe away every tear. There can be no anger, fear or loneliness, want nor evil thoughts, remember this is heaven.

Don't worry that you may have to be in heaven with James. Our past Stake President told both of us that we'd be sent to the telestial kingdom, the place where King David was sent. WOW! we said, we will be with King David, whom God called a man after His own heart? I am sorry that you feel James is divisive and a hypocrite when he is doing what Christ commanded.....to go out and preach the gospel to every creature. Seems to me that you are being like the Pharisees and Elders of Christ's day, blaming Christ for all the problems and causing THEM to feel uncomfortable because His words made them feel guilty. Even your own prophet said that Satan can appear as an angel of light, fooling many. How do you know your experiences were from God and not Satan? Anyone can get a good feeling about anything if they want it bad enough.

I have shared with you a couple of times that even when I was a young child I felt different growing up in the LDS Church. All I can explain to you is that the Lord had His plan for me but I was to young to recognize it. It took me many years before I came to the conclusion that Mormonism was wrong. Sad that it was the temple that opened my eyes and brought me to where I am today because sitting there going through all the vile ceremony, the Holy Spirit spoke to me to get up, leave, you don't belong here! If the LDS temple is the most sacred place where certainly no evil spirit could enter, then what did I hear and why did I feel something pushing on me to stand up? That experience has stayed with me all this time but I know it was the Lord's way of getting me to realize the truth. Sometimes the truth hurts but it's necessary. Just as a surgeon's scalpel hurts but is necessary to get inside the body to repair or remove something that is broken, cancerous or infected. Afterward, that person can heal and become whole again. That is James' and my wish for you, to be whole and show you the way to the narrow road which will lead you to eternal life.

[BigJulie]

Julie, what you don't seem to understand about heaven is that we will NOT be like we are here. No longer feeling pain nor sorrow.

I have a hard time believing that Heavenly Father has not wept for his children at times--regardless of being in heaven. Could he watch the pain and suffering that we experience and feel nothing?


Seems to me that you are being like the Pharisees and Elders of Christ's day, blaming Christ for all the problems and causing THEM to feel uncomfortable because His words made them feel guilty. Trust me, I don't feel uncomfortable by James words. I feel more frustration because James seems to be oblivious to his own hypocrisy.


Even your own prophet said that Satan can appear as an angel of light, fooling many. How do you know your experiences were from God and not Satan? Anyone can get a good feeling about anything if they want it bad enough. Yes, he did fool many, but he didn't fool them by their feelings, but rather by using their intellect.



Sometimes the truth hurts but it's necessary. Just as a surgeon's scalpel hurts but is necessary to get inside the body to repair or remove something that is broken, cancerous or infected. Afterward, that person can heal and become whole again. That is James' and my wish for you, to be whole and show you the way to the narrow road which will lead you to eternal life. Trust me, your "truth" is not hurting me. If anything, it makes me feel bad for you. (Especially when I know that had James stayed faithful to the church, he would have also stayed faithful to you.)

[James Banta]

I am not expecting a pat on the head. What I do see is that I do know my Savior, I am guided by the Holy Ghost. What I experience here is not correction or reproof, but merely division and hypocrisy.

This isn't the first time you have seen this correction but here is it again..

Jesus is NOT a spiritual creation of anyone including the Father.. Jesus is God and has been God from everlasting and will continue to be God to everlasting.. Nothing and no one will become a God like Him, not the way that He was trillions and trillions of years ago and not the God He is now.. There is no shadow of change in Him.. here is one more for you to think about.. I agree with what is taught in 1 Nephi 3:7 "I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them." I dismiss the revelation of D&C 124 were the mormon god excuses the church from keeping a commandment to build the temple in Far West because of the persecution of the mods and the Missouri state Militia. The mormon god couldn't prepare a way to accomplish what he had commanded! Is that a truth revelation from God based on 1 Nephi 3:7? I don't believe that even you can justify that Julie.. It would be one thing if God was correcting Smith's decision to make Far West the headquarters of the church. It is completely different to change His commandments because HE COULDN'T OVERCOME THE STATE MILITA OF 1841 Missouri! How weak a god is the mormon god.. Or was this just what I think it is a false prophecy? This is a problem that exists in your standard works Julie.. It points to the fact that mormonism is not of God, but instead is just the invention of a man's evil mind..

So you get no pat on the head. What you get is the challenge that Smith was never a prophet. That what he called scripture especially section 84 and 124 of the D&C are nothing more than Smith own will that he placed in the mouth of his god.. And you believe what he taught is truly from God? That is kind of thing we tell you here Julie.. And after showing that mormonism is a lie we point toward the cross.. We teach Jesus, the eternal God.. We point out by the scripture that he purchased salvation for us and offers it to us by His grace to those that hold faith in Him.. That He gives us His righteousness and takes our sin onto Himself.. We tell you the truth of God as reported in His word the Bible.. But you seem to want to follow a proven false prophet that put words in God's mouth to change what he had commanded. can't you see that such a doctrine flies in the face of what is taught about Him even in the BofM?

Julie God told us that we can know if a prophet speaks for God or if His words are his own. It's in Deut 18.. I'll help you..

Deut 18:20-22
But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken?
When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to p***, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

That speaks directly of Joseph Smith.. It is ever believers duty before God to reject such a prophet.. Are you willing to do so? If not my accusation of you not being of God, not His child, Not a believer in Jesus are all correct.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

This isn't the first time you have seen this correction but here is it again..

Jesus is NOT a spiritual creation of anyone including the Father.. Jesus is God and has been God from everlasting and will continue to be God to everlasting.. James, if you know about Mormonism, then you should also know our scriptures that teaches you that Jesus' "intelligence" or nature has always existed---not created by God the Father and is from everlasting to everlasting.


Nothing and no one will become a God like Him, not the way that He was trillions and trillions of years ago and not the God He is now..
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

And here, all along, I thought the whole point of the coming of Christ and his atonement was so that we could be one with him, follow him, be perfected by him, so that we could have a glorified resurrected body as he does and dwell with Him.



1 Nephi 3:7 "I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them."
Yes, Christ is the refiners fire and the fuller's soap. Follow Him and he will cleanse us so that we can be perfect even as He is perfect.




Julie God told us that we can know if a prophet speaks for God or if His words are his own. Yes, and because I can pray and receive answers by the Holy Ghost, I can pray and ask God if those who speak in his behalf are speaking His words. When I get an answer, I act on that answer and I see the increased light and knowledge that this brings along with an increased measure of happiness.

[James Banta]

[BigJulie;157273]James, if you know about Mormonism, then you should also know our scriptures that teaches you that Jesus' "intelligence" or nature has always existed---not created by God the Father and is from everlasting to everlasting.

Can you tell me that mormonism teaches that since they believe that all people are co-eternal with God being that that he eternally existed as "intelligence" is the same thing as being GOD from everlasting to everlasting.. Was he God as he existed as pure intelligence.. No? NO!! Even mormonism believes he became a God much later than that.. Therefore it is the truth to teach that mormonism denies that Jesus has been God from everlasting to everlasting..


1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

And here, all along, I thought the whole point of the coming of Christ and his atonement was so that we could be one with him, follow him, be perfected by him, so that we could have a glorified resurrected body as he does and dwell with Him.

No where in all that does it say that we will become GODS.. It says we will be like Him in appearance because we will see Him as He is.. We will stand in His righteousness and in His glory but because the Bible teaches us that he is God and after Him will no God be formed, we will NOT BE GODS.. Again you deny the Bible through your misinterpretations of Bible.. It ALL has to be true or none of it is.. The doctrines I have stated here allow for that, yours do not!


Yes, Christ is the refiners fire and the fuller's soap. Follow Him and he will cleanse us so that we can be perfect even as He is perfect.

If you are a follower of a Jesus that hasn't always been God, a God that can't make it possible to fulfill all His commandments, then you believe in another Jesus and not the Jesus of the Bible.. heck, you don't even believe in the Jesus of the BofM..


Yes, and because I can pray and receive answers by the Holy Ghost, I can pray and ask God if those who speak in his behalf are speaking His words. When I get an answer, I act on that answer and I see the increased light and knowledge that this brings along with an increased measure of happiness.

But as I have stated in section 84 and 124 where it is clear that a commandment came through Smith that was clearly in error and then corrected by Smith's God it is clear that the God od 1 Nephi is not the same God as the god of D&C 84 and 124.. You can ask such a god that gave those revelations to Smith day and night and the only answer that will come to you will be an answer you desire, the answer from your own heart.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

Can you tell me that mormonism teaches that since they believe that all people are co-eternal with God being that that he eternally existed as "intelligence" is the same thing as being GOD from everlasting to everlasting.. Was he God as he existed as pure intelligence.. No? NO!! Even mormonism believes he became a God much later than that.. Therefore it is the truth to teach that mormonism denies that Jesus has been God from everlasting to everlasting.. Yes, yes. We are imperfect. Our natures are imperfect. He is perfect--always will be, always has been.


No where in all that does it say that we will become GODS.. It says we will be like Him in appearance because we will see Him as He is.. We will stand in His righteousness and in His glory but because the Bible teaches us that he is God and after Him will no God be formed, we will NOT BE GODS.. Again you deny the Bible through your misinterpretations of Bible.. It ALL has to be true or none of it is.. The doctrines I have stated here allow for that, yours do not! Like him in appearance, perfected as he is perfect.

Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

You, yourself, acknowledge that God calls rulers and calls them "gods".

[neverending]

I have a hard time believing that Heavenly Father has not wept for his children at times--regardless of being in heaven. Could he watch the pain and suffering that we experience and feel nothing?

Trust me, I don't feel uncomfortable by James words. I feel more frustration because James seems to be oblivious to his own hypocrisy.

Yes, he did fool many, but he didn't fool them by their feelings, but rather by using their intellect.


Trust me, your "truth" is not hurting me. If anything, it makes me feel bad for you. (Especially when I know that had James stayed faithful to the church, he would have also stayed faithful to you.)

Oh PLEASE!!! Did I say that God doesn't feel sorrow? I was talking about us, (human beings). Who knows what God feels, do you? Nit picking I see. And I take offense by you bringing up a sin in my husband!! So as a Mormon, you don't believe that when someone does commit a sin and repents, that they can never be forgiven? Give me a BREAK!! At this point I am so upset that I best leave before I say something I may regret!!! JUST KNOW THIS, IT IS PEOPLE LIKE YOU THAT I LOOK AT AND THANK BECAUSE I WOULD NEVER HAVE QUESTIONED MORMONISM AND WOULD STILL BE A WALKING DEAD PERSON HEADED FOR HELL! Thanks Julie for being such a wonderful example of your church, your Bishop, Stake President and self proclaimed Prophet would be proud and patting you on the head. PUKE....PUKE!!

[Billyray]

Those leaders, such as Abraham, were foreordained.
I was "foreordained" to leadership in my Patriarchal blessing. So am I a god?

[Billyray]

When I was called to go on a mission was I a god?


No. Billyray, I know you think you are---but, no. ;)

Those leaders, such as Abraham, were foreordained. I personally wouldn't qualify you as such; you seem to do better at tearing down than building up.

So some people are gods and others are not? Which humans are gods?

[Billyray]

You believe that children of god are gods and I am a literal spirit child of god and his wife. So why am I not a god?

In this context, we were talking of those who are called to be leaders. You are not.

Do you believe they were appointed by God?


ESV Study Bible

". . .82:1–4 The Task of the “Gods.” The first section gives the *** description of human rulers (the gods), especially those who rule God's covenant people:they are to give justice to the weak and the fatherless, and rescue the weak and the needy*. *. *. from the hand of the wicked (vv. 3–4). Far too often, however, they judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked (i. e., people who take the lead in opposing God's purpose and oppressing others). The words of the psalm do not specify whether the rulers are Israelites, or Gentiles ruling Israel as a subject state (as in the Babylonian or Persian Empires). Both the ideal Davidic king in Psalm 72 and the ideal Gentile ruler in Prov. 31:1–9 are called to protect the powerless from those who would oppress them. Certainly the people of God should aim to embody this most clearly. . ."


As noted above from the ESV Study Bible we don't know if these unrighteous rulers were Israelites or Gentiles. Do you believe that if these guys were Gentile rulers that they are gods?

[James Banta]

Yes, yes. We are imperfect. Our natures are imperfect. He is perfect--always will be, always has been.

So now do you deny that God was always God or do you deny the LDS belief that "As man now is, God once was; as God is now man may be" (The Teachings of Lorenzo Snow, ed. Clyde J. Williams [1984], 1.). This was a remark from a Prophet, a man who was as much a prophet as Joseph Smith was. He taught that God was a man like we are, and that we being men can become a God.. Of course that agrees with the teachings of Joseph Smith.

[B]In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of
those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary we should
understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I
am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed
that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away
the veil, so that you may see.

These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is
the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of
God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with
another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the
Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did;
and I will show it from the Bible.

Eternal Life to Know God and Jesus Christ

I wish I was in a suitable place to tell it, and that I had the trump
of an archangel, so that I could tell the story in such a manner that
persecution would cease forever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder
Rigdon!) The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath
power in himself, even so hath the Son power--to do what? Why, what the
Father did. The answer is obvious--in a manner to lay down his body and
take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as
my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not
believe it you do not believe the Bible. The scriptures say it, and I defy
all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell
together to refute it. Here, then, is eternal life--to know the only wise
and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to
be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you,
namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small
capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to
exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able
to dwell in everlasting burnings. and to sit in glory, as do those who sit
enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the
last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming His name, is not
trifling with you or me. (History of the Church, Vol. 6, Ch. 14, p. 305-6).


Like him in appearance, perfected as he is perfect.

In that statement we have no argument.. We would if you said we share His divinity..


Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

This is a great quote.. A quote that proves that there are only 12 Apostles that is anyone today takes that position they are a fraud..


You, yourself, acknowledge that God calls rulers and calls them "gods".

If you include the rest of that p***age you will see that it says "But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."

IHS jim

[BigJulie]

And I take offense by you bringing up a sin in my husband!!


And I know you would. It gives me the chance to show you what you are doing. I now have the opportunity to tell you that if the truth hurts it is because ...what were your exact words...


Seems to me that you are being like the Pharisees and Elders of Christ's day, blaming Christ for all the problems and causing THEM to feel uncomfortable because His words made them feel guilty.

Yet, I am sure you do not feel guilty about this, nor do I feel guilty when you go on the attack.

Let's see...what are your words here when you feel personally attacked:


JUST KNOW THIS, IT IS PEOPLE LIKE YOU THAT I LOOK AT AND THANK BECAUSE I WOULD NEVER HAVE QUESTIONED MORMONISM AND WOULD STILL BE A WALKING DEAD PERSON HEADED FOR HELL! Thanks Julie for being such a wonderful example of your church, your Bishop, Stake President and self proclaimed Prophet would be proud and patting you on the head.

But lets look back to some of the comments I and others have received when disagreed wtih:


heck, you don't even believe in the Jesus of the BofM..


I guess you hate Jesus because He called sinners sons of the devil.


love ole Pres. Clinton......NOT!! Kinda like Mormons saying, depends on what your definition of faith without works is.


Again I say that you fail to even read most of what he posts or that you have some kind of brain dysfunction that keeps you from comprehending the written word; which is it?


Your logic is flawed so bad, it's not funny.

I guess I can only ***ume (based on your belief system) that the truth is hard for you to hear and that is why you act out and attack those who speak truth.

[BigJulie]

This is a great quote.. A quote that proves that there are only 12 Apostles that is anyone today takes that position they are a fraud..



If you include the rest of that p***age you will see that it says "But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."

IHS jim

Once again James---you fail to look at what we teach in context. You look at the tusk and think you see the elephant and them bear false witness because you do not comprehend the bigger picture.

So, yes--God is God of gods...I have already said that. I am glad now you at least admit to 12 who will be "rulers' or "gods" in the next life.

[James Banta]

[BigJulie;157293]And I know you would. It gives me the chance to show you what you are doing. I now have the opportunity to tell you that if the truth hurts it is because ...what were your exact words...

What did God tell Peter when he said that he would eat the animals on the sheet that God lowered from heaven.. In case you don't remember God said "What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy." That is what you are doing to me AGAIN.. That really bugs you doesn't.. You should keep that in mind as you judge me again.. Seems you have no believe in repentance. Once a person sins they are a sinner before you eternally.. I am sure glad you aren't God.. No one could be saved with your mindset.. But God is as merciful as He is just. I can count on Him, I sure can't count on you keeping your word..


Yet, I am sure you do not feel guilty about this, nor do I feel guilty when you go on the attack.

Sounds to me as though you have seared your conscience until it won't show you any of your sins.


But lets look back to some of the comments I and others have received when disagreed wtih:

Sounds to me as if they right and you are in denial..


I guess I can only ***ume (based on your belief system) that the truth is hard for you to hear and that is why you act out and attack those who speak truth.

If truth means denying the Bible and accepting what a man taught then I deny it 100%... IHS jim

[BigJulie]

What did God tell Peter when he said that he would eat the animals on the sheet that God lowered from heaven.. In case you don't remember God said "What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy." That is what you are doing to me AGAIN.. That really bugs you doesn't.. You should keep that in mind as you judge me again.. Seems you have no believe in repentance. Once a person sins they are a sinner before you eternally.. I am sure glad you aren't God.. No one could be saved with your mindset.. But God is as merciful as He is just. I can count on Him, I sure can't count on you keeping your word.. Actually, as your wife's behavior was completely predictable, I was letting her see what she is doing. (Basically, attack and then blame the victim.)


Sounds to me as though you have seared your conscience until it won't show you any of your sins. What?



Sounds to me as if they right and you are in denial.. And just that quickly, the attacks begin again.

[neverending]

And I know you would. It gives me the chance to show you what you are doing. I now have the opportunity to tell you that if the truth hurts it is because ...what were your exact words...



Yet, I am sure you do not feel guilty about this, nor do I feel guilty when you go on the attack.

Let's see...what are your words here when you feel personally attacked:



But lets look back to some of the comments I and others have received when disagreed wtih:











I guess I can only ***ume (based on your belief system) that the truth is hard for you to hear and that is why you act out and attack those who speak truth.

WHAT TRUTH JULIE!! Maybe if you spoke any that would make a difference but since I know better then nope, you speak with forked tongue as do ALL LDS. Hey, keep bringing up my husband's past, for it continues to show everyone on this board and any lurker how unforgiving LDS are and how hateful they can be to those who have left their faith. So the hate for Christians continues. Want to feed me to the lions now, sure why not. We are told that we will face tribulation but not to fear for Christ overcame the world. There is really nothing you can or could say that would ever force me to deny my Savior. I am only sorry that your eyes are so clouded over that you will never see the truth even if God himself appeared to you. God knows who will listen and who won't. Guess God didn't choose you.

[BigJulie]

WHAT TRUTH JULIE!! Maybe if you spoke any that would be make a difference but since I know better then nope, you speak with forked tongue as do ALL LDS. Hey, keep bringing up my husband's past, for it continues to show everyone on this board and any lurker how unforgiving LDS are and how hateful they can be to those who have left their faith. So the hate for Christians continues. Want to feed me to the lions now, sure why not. We are told that we will face tribulation but not to fear for Christ overcame the world. There is really nothing you can or could say that would ever force me to deny my Savior. I am only sorry that your eyes are so clouded over that you will never see the truth even if God himself appeared to you. God knows who will listen and who won't. Guess God didn't choose you.

I decided to take to a private message.

[James Banta]

[BigJulie;157302]Actually, as your wife's behavior was completely predictable, I was letting her see what she is doing. (Basically, attack and then blame the victim.)

I wasn't thinking of my wife's behavior I was thinking of yours..


What?

You didn't hear me or you didn't understand.. Julie, all have sinned, that includes you. It doesn't matter what you have done.. I know you don't believe all of James Chapter 2 just rememeber as you through verse 10 oit that NO ONE is allow to have their own private interpretation of the scripture. You either accept it as it is or deny it all.. So when James teaches that "we we keep the whole Law abd offend in just one point we are GUILTY of it all".. That means that you are guilty of the whole Law. Murder, adultery, stealing all because you are a sinner before God just like the rest of us.. You conscience seems recoil from that until it has stopped showing you where you are in sin.. That is WHAT..


And just that quickly, the attacks begin again.

The truth is not an attack. You are no different than anyone else, including jim.. I often don't see the sin that lives in me, even though it shows it's self all to often. That is why I talk it to Jesus daily and ask Him to take it from me. I at least and willing to admit that sin still lives in me.. So in saying that ALL HAVE SINNED and include you and myself in that "ALL" you have chosen to see God's statement of truth as a personal attack.. If you don't turn away from your sin and give it all to Jesus you will have a problem explaining your lack of repentance before God at the Great White Throne.. Julie you are a fine woman. Losing such a person as you are to the Lake of Fire would be a terrible lose. Please allow Jesus to take all your sin and give you His righteousness in it's place.. It doesn't matter if your stay in the LDS church.. What matters is that you believe God and His word is available to you.. Stop trying to cram the smooth round truth of His word into the square hole that is mormonism.. Just believe what He has preserved for you that you can know who He is and what He has done to save you.. IHS jim