Free Will [Archive] - Page 4 - Walter Martin Ministries Forum

Libby

05-28-2014, 07:47 PM

Actually I think we are just about getting somewhere with this Libby. I have already seen you change your position several times now--perhaps you are at least starting to solidify your beliefs a little bit here.

Well, I don't think I have changed the main premise with which I started, which is that God draws all people to himself and some answer the call and others do not.

But I am still waiting for you to tell me what you mean when you say "faith" in the only true God. What exactly do you mean when you say "faith"? For example when you say faith in God does that mean that you believe in a god?

Faith in the One True God, The Trinity, The Father, Son & Holy Spirit. The one and only Living God. The God described in the Bible. That GOD.

alanmolstad

05-28-2014, 07:49 PM

I'd agree. By the way, Walter Martin's partner, Walter Bjorck, was my Bible teacher and the man most responsible for getting me interested in the cults. He p***ed on many years ago, but one thing I remember clearly - speaking of God's Sovereign will (Presdestination) and Free will, he said:

"Consider it to be similar to two parallel railroad tracks. One track is God's election and predestination; the other rail is man's free will. As you look at them run parallel you will see them merge in the distance. How that happens, we do not know - but we do know this: God elects; man is free to reject God's will."what a great image to remember!

thanks!

Billyray

05-28-2014, 09:04 PM

Well, I don't think I have changed the main premise with which I started, which is that God draws all people to himself and some answer the call and others do not.
But we were talking about the Father drawing ALL people to Christ. So here is where we are at:

1. You believe that the Father draws ALL men to Christ.
2. You believe that ALL have not even heard about Christ.

As I said before this is a conflicting belief. Perhaps you can try and restate how you justify these conflicting beliefs.

Billyray

05-28-2014, 09:08 PM

Faith in the One True God, The Trinity, The Father, Son & Holy Spirit. The one and only Living God. The God described in the Bible. That GOD.
I am not sure you don't understand what I am asking--despite giving you examples of what I am asking. I asked you what you mean when you say "faith" in the one true God. So I will tell you what I you mean by "faith"--since you seem to be unable to tell me yourself--and you can correct me if what I have said is incorrect.

Salvation is by "Faith in the One True God, The Trinity, The Father, Son & Holy Spirit. "
Salvation is by "[Believing] that there is One True God, The Trinity, The Father, Son & Holy Spirit."

alanmolstad

05-28-2014, 09:09 PM

But we were talking about the Father drawing ALL people to Christ. So here is where we are at:

1. You believe that the Father draws ALL men to Christ.
2. You believe that ALL have not even heard about Christ.

As I said before this is a conflicting belief. Perhaps you can try and restate how you justify these conflicting beliefs.
is the universe still here?.......there's your answer Billy

Billyray

05-28-2014, 09:11 PM

is the universe still here?.......there's your answer Billy
Yes Alan the universe is still here. Tell me what the universe--without any direct revelation--teaches us about Christ and his role here on earth?

alanmolstad

05-28-2014, 09:17 PM

Yes Alan the universe is still here. Tell me what the universe--without any direct revelation--teaches us about Christ and his role here on earth?

just what the text says......

Billyray

05-28-2014, 10:30 PM

just what the text says......
Come on Alan you and Libby are making this claim--surely you have some ideas about what you believe.

Tell me what the universe--without any direct revelation--teaches us about Christ and his role here on earth?

Romans 10
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

Alan can you tell me what these verses say and how it relates to your beliefs?

Libby

05-28-2014, 10:43 PM

Tell me what the universe--without any direct revelation--teaches us about Christ and his role here on earth?

Nothing. I don't think I made that claim. What the universe shows us is that there is an Intelligent Creator at work here. That is the "beginning" of God's drawing (IMHO)...or one of the ways God can begin to draw us. If we listen to that call...God will give us more. He will guide us as we seek...he will send someone to teach...if we listen...he will draw us in even more..

Billyray

05-28-2014, 11:52 PM

Nothing. I don't think I made that claim. What the universe shows us is that there is an Intelligent Creator at work here. That is the "beginning" of God's drawing (IMHO)...or one of the ways God can begin to draw us. If we listen to that call...God will give us more. He will guide us as we seek...he will send someone to teach...if we listen...he will draw us in even more..
1. Since you agree that the universe --without any direct revelation--doesn't specifically reveal Christ then you can't claim that this has anything to do with the Father drawing ALL men to the Son.

2. Second if the universe--without any direct revelation--is a way for the Father to draw ALL men to Christ why does Paul say that say "there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.

3. Third if the universe is the Father's way to draw ALL men to Christ then has does this relate to the verses below from John 6 since those in verse 64 have not been enabled to come to Christ.

John 6
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

Libby

05-29-2014, 12:36 AM

1. Since you agree that the universe --without any direct revelation--doesn't specifically reveal Christ then you can't claim that this has anything to do with the Father drawing ALL men to the Son.

Yes, I can and believe I did. At least twice, I have said that this could be the first phase.

2. Second if the universe--without any direct revelation--is a way for the Father to draw ALL men to Christ why does Paul say that say "there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.

Perhaps...before the Father starts drawing them...and, maybe, even after, because not everyone will respond to the drawing.

3. Third if the universe is the Father's way to draw ALL men to Christ then has does this relate to the verses below from John 6 since those in verse 64 have not been enabled to come to Christ.

God's grace is shining down on all of us, in the beauty and awe inspiring spectacle of this earth and universe. All we have to do is "notice"....and there will be more of God's grace to come.

John 6
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

You keep giving me this verse like it's a magic bullet or something, Billy. Just because people walk away, doesn't mean they have not been "enabled". They are perfectly able (through God's grace) to choose God/Christ. Some just don't. They don't even get that far. They look at the universe and shrug..and then walk away and busy themselves with their own lives.

Billyray

05-29-2014, 01:46 AM

Perhaps...before the Father starts drawing them...and, maybe, even after, because not everyone will respond to the drawing.
What do you mean "before the Father starts drawing them" when you believe that the creation draws men to Christ? Libby you can't seem to hold a consistent belief. It is constantly changing page by page as we discuss this.

Billyray

05-29-2014, 01:51 AM

3. Third if the universe is the Father's way to draw ALL men to Christ then has does this relate to the verses below from John 6 since those in verse 64 have not been enabled to come to Christ.
And what does that have to do with what I asked you? I see it as simply a diversion. If the creation draws men to Christ then shouldn't men be able to come to Christ? Yet lets look at the verses again in John 6

John 6
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

Since every man can see the creation--which according to you is the Father drowning ALL men to Christ--wouldn't those in verse 64 be able to come to Christ since they have been drawn to Him by the creation?t

Billyray

05-29-2014, 01:53 AM

[QUOTE=Libby;158173]
You keep giving me this verse like it's a magic bullet or something, Billy. Just because people walk away, doesn't mean they have not been "enabled".
John 6
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

So you would say that those in verse 64 were enable to come to Christ? Is that what this verse says?

alanmolstad

05-29-2014, 04:22 AM

Come on Alan you and Libby are making this claim--surely you have some ideas about what you believe.

Tell me what the universe--without any direct revelation--teaches us about Christ and his role here on earth?

?Again, what does the text say as to the answer?

lets just have a look shall we?

"since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them"

"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

"For the director of music. A psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands."

"He made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his wisdom and stretched out the heavens by his understanding."

"No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known."

So Billy, the answer to your question is this > "since what may be known about God".....Every last thing we can ever know about God, is shown us .

If we have faith in God, this is what we see is shown us in the things that are made.

There is no "other" message found there..
the universe itself reflects it's maker's hand, and that hand is JESUS!

The universe is God showing us the Son!

The universe shows us Not only the power of the Creator, but also his "divine nature".....
In other words, if you have saving faith in the Son, the thing you are able to see is what is shown all men in the things that are made.

Now pay attention to this next part>

THIS.......this......this is why the Bible tells us that the people who die in unbelief in the Son do so "without excuse"!
They are without excuse because all you can know of God is given us in the Son.....there is no "other" revelation to learn about God....only in the Son does man learn about the Father.
Jesus is shown us in the things that are made!

This is why it's so silly when someone says> "You have only shown me the Son drawing all men, show me the father drawing all men?"For the answer from the text teaches us ""Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and yet you still don't know who I am? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking me to show him to you?"

If the Son is said to be drawing all men to himself, it is ONLY because the Father is drawing all men to Himself.

disciple

05-29-2014, 06:24 AM

This is a very interesting discussion and its nice to see patience and good manners even with differing opinions.
Does anyone disagree with any of the following statements?

Humans are naturally unable to make any effort towards salvation.

Salvation is possible only by God's grace, which cannot be merited.

No works of human effort can cause or contribute to salvation.

God's election is conditional on faith in the sacrifice and Lordship of Jesus Christ.

Christ's atonement was made on behalf of all people.

God allows his grace to be resisted by those who freely reject Christ.

Libby

05-29-2014, 11:22 AM

Libby

05-29-2014, 11:23 AM

Good points, in your last post, Alan. (points that I know you have made several times!) :)

Libby

05-29-2014, 11:27 AM

What do you mean "before the Father starts drawing them" when you believe that the creation draws men to Christ? Libby you can't seem to hold a consistent belief. It is constantly changing page by page as we discuss this.

No, not inconsistent, at all. I agree with you (and the Bible) that man cannot turn to God on his own. So, I was actually agreeing with you, here, that before God starts "drawing" someone (through creation or whatever) that person will not be able to turn to God on his own.

Hope that is more clear.

Libby

05-29-2014, 11:29 AM

And what does that have to do with what I asked you? I see it as simply a diversion. If the creation draws men to Christ then shouldn't men be able to come to Christ? Yet lets look at the verses again in John 6

John 6
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

Since every man can see the creation--which according to you is the Father drowning ALL men to Christ--wouldn't those in verse 64 be able to come to Christ since they have been drawn to Him by the creation?t

They are "able" (through God's drawing), perhaps just not "willing".

disciple

05-29-2014, 12:06 PM

I would agree with all of those points, disciple.

I still believe that all people are free to choose Gods offer of eternal life but perhaps that's not what people mean by free will. Prior to the fall, Adam's will was not in bondage to sin, thus it was free from sin's bondage and corruption but it was not free from God's decree. His choice to rebel was completely voluntary even though God has ordained with certainty that it would come to p***. The rich young ruler in Luke 18 was given a choice by Jesus and he chose badly and there are many other examples in scripture where God gives humans the opportunity to choose Him or not. When the tower of Siloam fell on some people, Jesus said, "Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish." Again the choice repent or perish.

Billyray

05-29-2014, 01:54 PM

They are "able" (through God's drawing), perhaps just not "willing".
John 6
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

But that is not what these verses say Libby. Were those in verse 64 able (or enabled) to come to Christ?

Billyray

05-29-2014, 01:56 PM

No, not inconsistent, at all. I agree with you (and the Bible) that man cannot turn to God on his own. So, I was actually agreeing with you, here, that before God starts "drawing" someone (through creation or whatever) that person will not be able to turn to God on his own.

Hope that is more clear.

But you believe that the creation itself draws all men to Christ--so this isn't the Father drawing.

Billyray

05-29-2014, 02:02 PM

". . .So Billy, the answer to your question is this > "since what may be known about God".....Every last thing we can ever know about God, is shown us . . ."

Let me make sure I am getting your position correct. You believe that you can know everything about Jesus by just looking at the universe itself--without any direct revelation. Did I get that right?

Libby

05-29-2014, 02:24 PM

John 6
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

But that is not what these verses say Libby. Were those in verse 64 able (or enabled) to come to Christ?

Apparently not. Not yet, anyway.

Libby

05-29-2014, 02:25 PM

But you believe that the creation itself draws all men to Christ--so this isn't the Father drawing.

Yes, it is the Father drawing.

alanmolstad

05-29-2014, 06:35 PM

alanmolstad

05-29-2014, 06:37 PM

Good points, in your last post, Alan. (points that I know you have made several times!) :)
forsome reason you guys seem to post when im busy or at work?

When Im home and not doing anything and have some free time I can post and not see a responce to my post for 12 hours?

yet the moment I go to work,BOOM!...76 new posts within the hour?

why is that anyway?...LOL:)

alanmolstad

05-29-2014, 06:42 PM

Yes, it is the Father drawing.

very good!

yes, the father is drawing all men to himself though the son.
the universe speaks to men about God...and the God that it speaks to us about is the Son, who is also the creator...
All that we will ever know about God is though the son.....

So this is why yu are correct..The Father is reaching out to men via His son.....and this comes though in the things that are made.

alanmolstad

05-29-2014, 06:53 PM

Let me make sure I am getting your position correct. You believe that everything about Jesus is know by just looking at the universe itself--without any direct revelation. Did I get that right?
what did I just quote you?

im only quoting the bible......and the bible tells us that all we can know about God , not only his power as creator, but even his hidden nature, is revealed .

And this is all according to plan....
This is why in that video of Walter Martin he talks about that fact that God did not leave the far lands without hope, for the Bible tells us that you can search for God and FIND HIM!!!!!!!!!!!

No matter where you are in the world....

Even if you never hear of the new testament?....YES!

Even if you never see a christian missionary?......YES!

Even if you never get a chance to be baptised?......YES!

Billyray

05-29-2014, 06:58 PM

Billyray

05-29-2014, 07:02 PM

what did I just quote you?

im only quoting the bible......and the bible tells us that all we can know about God , not only his power as creator, but even his hidden nature, is revealed .

Let me make sure I am getting your position correct. You believe that you can know everything about Jesus by just looking at the universe itself--without any direct revelation. Did I get that right?
So you would agree with what I said above. Correct Alan?

alanmolstad

05-29-2014, 07:14 PM

Libby's views

1. Simply looking at the universe draws all men to Christ = the Father drawing all men to Christ.

2. Therefore anyone who looks at the universe can come to Christ at any time.

That is what the Bible is saying...Libby is just smart enough to believe it.......not all are that way however.

alanmolstad

05-29-2014, 07:15 PM

So you would agree with what I said above. Correct Alan?
why dont you quote the verses i have been using?.....then i will tell you if they are true or not.....

alanmolstad

05-29-2014, 07:16 PM

Again, what does the text say as to the answer?

lets just have a look shall we?

"since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them"

"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

"For the director of music. A psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands."

"He made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his wisdom and stretched out the heavens by his understanding."

"No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known."

So Billy, the answer to your question is this > "since what may be known about God".....Every last thing we can ever know about God, is shown us .

If we have faith in God, this is what we see is shown us in the things that are made.

There is no "other" message found there..
the universe itself reflects it's maker's hand, and that hand is JESUS!

The universe is God showing us the Son!

The universe shows us Not only the power of the Creator, but also his "divine nature".....
In other words, if you have saving faith in the Son, the thing you are able to see is what is shown all men in the things that are made.

Now pay attention to this next part>

THIS.......this......this is why the Bible tells us that the people who die in unbelief in the Son do so "without excuse"!
They are without excuse because all you can know of God is given us in the Son.....there is no "other" revelation to learn about God....only in the Son does man learn about the Father.
Jesus is shown us in the things that are made!

This is why it's so silly when someone says> "You have only shown me the Son drawing all men, show me the father drawing all men?"For the answer from the text teaches us ""Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and yet you still don't know who I am? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking me to show him to you?"

If the Son is said to be drawing all men to himself, it is ONLY because the Father is drawing all men to Himself.

bump for Billy

Billyray

05-29-2014, 07:17 PM

why dont you quote the verses i have been using?.....then i will tell you if they are true or not.....
You are being evasive Alan. Is what I have written below correct or incorrect?

Let me make sure I am getting your position correct. You believe that you can know everything about Jesus by just looking at the universe itself--without any direct revelation. Did I get that right?

Billyray

05-29-2014, 07:20 PM

bump for Billy
Since you just reposted this again hopefully you can tell me if what I stated is what you real believe. Here it is again for you.

You believe that you can know everything about Jesus by just looking at the universe itself--without any direct revelation. Did I get that right?

Libby

05-29-2014, 07:25 PM

Libby's views

1. Simply looking at the universe draws all men to Christ = the Father drawing all men to Christ.

2. Therefore anyone who looks at the universe can come to Christ at any time.

LOL...aye! I have to get to Bible study, right now. Later.

alanmolstad

05-29-2014, 07:32 PM

You are being evasive Alan. Is what I have written below correct or incorrect?see bump.....

alanmolstad

05-29-2014, 07:36 PM

Since you just reposted this again hopefully you can tell me if what I stated is what you real believe. Here it is again for you.

You believe that you can know everything about Jesus by just looking at the universe itself--without any direct revelation. Did I get that right?

what did the verse I quoted teach about what is "clearly seen" in the things that are made?

alanmolstad

05-29-2014, 07:55 PM

"Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them"

in other words...all we can know about God is manifest to men,,,not by accident...but only because God shows this to us all.

But you may ask "How does God show us all there is to know about him?"

and the answer to that question is in the next verse.....

Billyray

05-29-2014, 08:01 PM

see bump.....

You believe that you can know everything about Jesus by just looking at the universe itself--without any direct revelation. Did I get that right?
Come on Alan is what I said what you believe or not. This is not that hard Alan.

alanmolstad

05-29-2014, 08:06 PM

Come on Alan is what I said what you believe or not. This is not that hard Alan.

Im limited to believing in only what the verse i quoted says,,,,,

You can read the verse for yourself....if you can, then you know what i believe.

So read the verse i have quoted and if you doubt I believe in it, just ask me if i think its true or not?

Billyray

05-29-2014, 08:23 PM

But you believe that the creation itself draws all men to Christ--so this isn't the Father drawing.

Yes, it is the Father drawing.

Libby's views

1. Simply looking at the universe draws all men to Christ = the Father drawing all men to Christ.

2. Therefore anyone who looks at the universe can come to Christ at any time.

LOL...aye! I have to get to Bible study, right now. Later.

"AYE" is right. When you see what tale you have weaved it doesn't make a lot of sense. Does it?

Billyray

05-29-2014, 08:30 PM

You can read the verse for yourself....if you can, then you know what i believe.

The verse never states that you can know about Jesus by looking at the universe. That is why I am trying to get you to tell me if you really believe that looking at the universe teaches everything about Jesus. Now are you ready to tell me if you believe this or not?

Libby

05-29-2014, 11:41 PM

"AYE" is right. When you see what tale you have weaved it doesn't make a lot of sense. Does it?

It doesn't make a lot of sense when you try to boil it down into just a few words, because you leave a lot of stuff out.

The Bible definitely says that there is proof of God in his creation. I'm not saying, nor have I ever said, we can learn all about "Jesus" just by looking at nature. Nature is proof of God and that "can be" (for some) the beginning stages of the Father drawing us.......is all I'm saying.

Billyray

05-30-2014, 12:29 AM

It doesn't make a lot of sense when you try to boil it down into just a few words, because you leave a lot of stuff out.

The Bible definitely says that there is proof of God in his creation. I'm not saying, nor have I ever said, we can learn all about "Jesus" just by looking at nature. Nature is proof of God and that "can be" (for some) the beginning stages of the Father drawing us.......is all I'm saying.
Sounds like you are back tracking a bit here Libby. If you believe--like Alan believes--that looking at the creation equates to the Father drawing all men to Christ then all of the other verses that I have given you makes no sense because ALL men have already been drawn and can come to Christ at any time. The problem with this belief is that we see many verses that clearly show that men are unable to come to Christ as depicted in John 6.

Libby

05-30-2014, 12:51 AM

Sounds like you are back tracking a bit here Libby. If you believe--like Alan believes--that looking at the creation equates to the Father drawing all men to Christ then all of the other verses that I have given you makes no sense because ALL men have already been drawn and can come to Christ at any time. The problem with this belief is that we see many verses that clearly show that men are unable to come to Christ as depicted in John 6.

Men are unable to come to Christ without the Father first drawing them.

alanmolstad

05-30-2014, 04:27 AM

Men are unable to come to Christ without the Father first drawing them.
very true!

why this is so hard for some to read and understand is past me....

alanmolstad

05-30-2014, 04:37 AM

The verse never states that you can know about Jesus by looking at the universe. That is why I am trying to get you to tell me if you really believe that looking at the universe teaches everything about Jesus. Now are you ready to tell me if you believe this or not?you ducked my verse again?????

You go on and on about what the verse does not say....why wont you just tell me what it does say?...after all that also is what im saying i believe .

What does the verse say we can "see clearly" in the things that are made?

and another question i ask along with that, "Who is the image of the invisible God?"

Once again, quote me the verse im looking at, quote me the verse I say i believe in, and then ask me if the verse is true or not?

alanmolstad

05-30-2014, 05:02 AM

19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

alanmolstad

05-30-2014, 05:09 AM

19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

Did you see this part > " for God made it evident to them. "?

Do you catch what this means?.....it means that the universe does not just accidentally reflect the Lord Christ to the world of men...IT WAS DESIGNED TO DO THIS!!!!!!!!

disciple

05-30-2014, 06:34 AM

Did you see this part > " for God made it evident to them. "?

Do you catch what this means?.....it means that the universe does not just accidentally reflect the Lord Christ to the world of men...IT WAS DESIGNED TO DO THIS!!!!!!!!

I think you are correct here Alan.
People will not look for a cure if they don’t know they are sick, the sickness being sin and the cure being Jesus. This is true. We learn a lot about God, a lot about truth, just by looking at nature. To repeat what you posted from the Message "The basic reality of God is plain enough. Open your eyes and there it is! By taking a long and thoughtful look at what God has created, people have always been able to see what their eyes as such can't see: eternal power, for instance, and the mystery of his divine being. So nobody has a good excuse." Romans 1:19-20
God will also lead us to the truth about Jesus through conscience or in reality any way He wants.

Billyray

05-30-2014, 06:59 AM

But you believe that the creation itself draws all men to Christ--so this isn't the Father drawing.

Yes, it is the Father drawing.

Men are unable to come to Christ without the Father first drawing them.

Therefore all men--anyone who can look at the universe--can come to Christ at anytime because the universe = the Father draws men to Christ.

Billyray

05-30-2014, 07:05 AM

you ducked my verse again?????

Alan you can use any verse in the entire Bible and it would not agree with what you say. Nor would any person that I know here on this board (or anywhere else for that matter) believe that the act of looking at the universe reveals everything about Christ. If you disagree then let me ask you some questions about this belief--but thus far you won't even verify that this is actually what you believe.

Tell me Alan is this what you truly believe?

Billyray

05-30-2014, 07:10 AM

Did you see this part > " for God made it evident to them. "?

Do you catch what this means?.....it means that the universe does not just accidentally reflect the Lord Christ to the world of men...IT WAS DESIGNED TO DO THIS!!!!!!!!
Alan if looking at creation reveals everything about Christ--what role does direct revelation (scripture) play? Does a person even need to read the Bible or can that person simply go out on his back patio and look around?

Libby

05-30-2014, 11:55 AM

Therefore all men--anyone who can look at the universe--can come to Christ at anytime because the universe = the Father draws men to Christ.

No, I don't think I've ever said any such thing. But, believing/acknowledging there is a Creator and experiencing His grace through that belief can certainly open us up to Christ, when he is presented.

Billyray

05-30-2014, 12:20 PM

no, i don't think i've ever said any such thing. But, believing/acknowledging there is a creator and experiencing his grace through that belief can certainly open us up to christ, when he is presented.

but you believe that the creation itself draws all men to christ--so this isn't the father drawing.

yes, it is the father drawing.
So would like to retract your statement above?

Libby

05-30-2014, 12:42 PM

So would like to retract your statement above?

No, why would I?

Billy, you are the one who inserted Christ into my statement. I have never said man can know Jesus Christ through nature. I am saying God the Father CAN draw men to himself, through nature (that's ONE way he might draw us)...and if we respond, He will continue to draw us, in other ways, to Christ...through the Bible, through a missionary, through a friend, etc.

alanmolstad

05-30-2014, 03:58 PM

I think you are correct here Alan.
People will not look for a cure if they don’t know they are sick, the sickness being sin and the cure being Jesus. This is true. We learn a lot about God, a lot about truth, just by looking at nature. To repeat what you posted from the Message "The basic reality of God is plain enough. Open your eyes and there it is! By taking a long and thoughtful look at what God has created, people have always been able to see what their eyes as such can't see: eternal power, for instance, and the mystery of his divine being. So nobody has a good excuse." Romans 1:19-20
God will also lead us to the truth about Jesus through conscience or in reality any way He wants.

i dont know why I need to show up here anymore?...you got this topic nailed down!

Good posts all well written...good ***!

alanmolstad

05-30-2014, 03:59 PM

Therefore all men--anyone who can look at the universe--can come to Christ at anytime because the universe = the Father draws men to Christ.

The Bible tells us that if we look for the Lord we will find him...

alanmolstad

05-30-2014, 04:02 PM

Alan you can use any verse in the entire Bible and it would not agree with what you say. Nor would any person that I know here on this board (or anywhere else for that matter) believe that the act of looking at the universe reveals everything about Christ. If you disagree then let me ask you some questions about this belief--but thus far you won't even verify that this is actually what you believe.

Tell me Alan is this what you truly believe?I truly believe you just dont want to tell me what the verse I quote is telling us......LOL

The verse I base my views on is very clear....it speaks to this question with authority.
It is the verse i use, and have in my mind when i write.>>>

So Billy, rather than going on and on telling me what you think the verse dont teach, lets listen to what you think the verse IS teaching!!!!!!!!

You can use all the study bibles you want....

alanmolstad

05-30-2014, 04:09 PM

Alan if looking at creation reveals everything about Christ--what role does direct revelation (scripture) play? Does a person even need to read the Bible or can that person simply go out on his back patio and look around?
"need"????

No a person never "needed" to read the Bible in order to get saved....
You have to only have faith and receive......like the thief on the cross did.
I have no idea if the thief on the cross read one page of the Bible....yet he was saved due to his faith that he put in Christ.

alanmolstad

05-30-2014, 04:13 PM

Does a person even need to read the Bible or can that person simply go out on his back patio and look around?
Billy...there is no telling what a person can trace his salvation back to as far as 'whats was i doing at the time?' goes....

People born of the spirit are like the wind ****ing past you..you just never know what or where that came from or are going to..................................

alanmolstad

05-30-2014, 04:17 PM

No, why would I?

Billy, you are the one who inserted Christ into my statement. I have never said man can know Jesus Christ through nature. I am saying God the Father CAN draw men to himself, through nature (that's ONE way he might draw us)...and if we respond, He will continue to draw us, in other ways, to Christ...through the Bible, through a missionary, through a friend, etc.

YES!!!!!!

as Walter Martin was said in the video....the lesser light will lead you the the greater light.

its all the same light, and it will lead you to Christ....

Libby

05-30-2014, 04:34 PM

YES!!!!!!

as Walter Martin was said in the video....the lesser light will lead you the the greater light.

its all the same light, and it will lead you to Christ....

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!

I wanted to emulate your excitement!! :D

The lesser light will lead you to the greater....!!! Yes Yes Yes

alanmolstad

05-30-2014, 04:42 PM

Libby

05-30-2014, 05:36 PM

Im not sure why this is,,,,but it appears that our calvinist friend hates the idea that God might love the whole world enough to be guilty of drawing all people to himself.....

any clue why he hates that idea so much?

I don't think he hates it. I think he really believes it. He said, in a post somewhere here, that he was more Arminian, coming out of Mormonism...but, became convinced that the Reformed view was more correct. I understand that, as I saw what he was seeing, as well, after I studied Calvinism for awhile. There is a lot of support for that belief system in the Bible.

Billyray

05-30-2014, 06:41 PM

No, why would I?

Billy, you are the one who inserted Christ into my statement. I have never said man can know Jesus Christ through nature. I am saying God the Father CAN draw men to himself, through nature (that's ONE way he might draw us)...and if we respond, He will continue to draw us, in other ways, to Christ...through the Bible, through a missionary, through a friend, etc.
Thanks for clarifying your position.

1. Creation is the Father drawing ALL men to Himself
2. Creation doesn't draw a single person to Christ.

Did I get that right?

Billyray

05-30-2014, 06:44 PM

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!

I wanted to emulate your excitement!! :D

The lesser light will lead you to the greater....!!! Yes Yes Yes
How many men seek out God on their own according to Paul?

Billyray

05-30-2014, 06:45 PM

Im not sure why this is,,,,but it appears that our calvinist friend hates the idea that God might love the whole world enough to be guilty of drawing all people to himself.....

any clue why he hates that idea so much?
I believe what the Bible teaches. What I hate is for people such as yourself making up stuff that is not in the Bible and p***ing it off as it is taught in the Bible.

Billyray

05-30-2014, 06:47 PM

Alan if looking at creation reveals everything about Christ--what role does direct revelation (scripture) play? Does a person even need to read the Bible or can that person simply go out on his back patio and look around?

Billy...there is no telling what a person can trace his salvation back to as far as 'whats was i doing at the time?' goes....

People born of the spirit are like the wind ****ing past you..you just never know what or where that came from or are going to..................................
I notice that you didn't answer my question so here it is again for you.

Alan if looking at creation reveals everything about Christ--what role does direct revelation (scripture) play? Does a person even need to read the Bible or can that person simply go out on his back patio and look around?[

alanmolstad

05-30-2014, 07:12 PM

Thanks for clarifying your position.

1. Creation is the Father drawing ALL men to Himself
2. Creation doesn't draw a single person to Christ.

Did I get that right?

What does the verse say compared to what you think Libby says?

alanmolstad

05-30-2014, 07:14 PM

How many men seek out God on their own according to Paul?

God's word tells us that if we seek him we will find him.....
Thats all we need to worry about.

We can have faith in the fact that if any person seeks the Lord, they will not come away empty handed......

That is all anyone can ask....

Billyray

05-30-2014, 07:20 PM

God's word tells us that if we seek him we will find him.....
Thats all we need to worry about.

We can have faith in the fact that if any person seeks the Lord, they will not come away empty handed......

That is all anyone can ask....
You seem to have a hard time answering the question asked. That is being deceptive. Here is my question again.

How many men seek out God on their own according to Paul?

Billyray

05-30-2014, 07:27 PM

What does the verse say compared to what you think Libby says?
Rom. 1:19 For what can be mknown about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom. 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, nhave been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,* in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

The creation show all men that there is a God--"namely, his eternal power and divine nature". Nothing in these verses or any other verses in the entire Bible say anything that you claim that they say--namely that the creation reveals everything about Jesus. This is an absolute false ***ertion on you part and nobody that I know on this board--nor anywhere else that I have ever heard make this claim.

alanmolstad

05-30-2014, 08:03 PM

Rom. 1:19 For what can be mknown about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom. 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, nhave been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,* in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

The creation show all men that there is a God--"namely, his eternal power and divine nature". Nothing in these verses or any other verses in the entire Bible say anything that you claim that they say--namely that the creation reveals everything about Jesus. This is an absolute false ***ertion on you part and nobody that I know on this board--nor anywhere else that I have ever heard make this claim.
again...you seem concerned with what it does not teach.....and that is because?

I ask because i asked you what it does teach?

Billyray

05-30-2014, 08:32 PM

again...you seem concerned with what it does not teach.....and that is because?

That is an easy one Alan--because you are making up stuff that in not in the text. This is your effort to support your false belief that God draws ALL men to Christ. You have yet to show me a single text in the entire Bible that supports this belief and you have finally settled on trying to say that the creation itself--without any direct revelation i.e scriptures--draws ALL men to Christ. The length that you and Libby are going to try and support this false belief truly amazes me.

I ask because i asked you what it does teach?
And I have told you on multiple occasions now Alan. Would it help if I bold it for you?

Rom. 1:19 For what can be mknown about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom. 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, nhave been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,* in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

The creation show all men that there is a God--"namely, his eternal power and divine nature". Nothing in these verses or any other verses in the entire Bible say anything that you claim that they say--namely that the creation reveals everything about Jesus. This is an absolute false ***ertion on you part and nobody that I know on this board--nor anywhere else that I have ever heard make this claim.

alanmolstad

05-30-2014, 08:50 PM

That is an easy one Alan--because you are making up stuff that in not in the text. This is your effort to support your false belief that God draws ALL men to Christ. You have yet to show me a single text in the entire Bible that supports this belief and you have finally settled on trying to say that the creation itself--without any direct revelation i.e scriptures--draws ALL men to Christ. The length that you and Libby are going to try and support this false belief truly amazes me.

And I have told you on multiple occasions now Alan. Would it help if I bold it for you?blah, blah, blah....I asked you what the verse teaches.........

alanmolstad

05-30-2014, 09:07 PM

That is an easy one Alan--because you are making up stuff that in not in the text. This is your effort to support your false belief that God draws ALL men to Christ.

http://biblehub.com/john/12-32.htm

all men.........

Not a few...
Not a lucky elect...
Not a clique of the lucky.

but all men.....
All, regardless of their religion, their faith, their color and their nation.......

alanmolstad

05-30-2014, 09:17 PM

http://biblehub.com/john/5-19.htm

The son can do what apart from the father doing it?

What does the verse say about that again?

alanmolstad

05-30-2014, 09:45 PM

http://biblehub.com/john/5-19.htm

The son can do what apart from the father doing it?

What does the verse say about that again?

bump for billy.........

Billyray

05-30-2014, 09:48 PM

The son can do what apart from the father doing it?

The Son came to earth and took on a body--The Father did not. The Son died on the cross--The Father did not. . .

Billyray

05-30-2014, 09:51 PM

http://biblehub.com/john/12-32.htm

all men.........

Not a few...
Not a lucky elect...
Not a clique of the lucky.

but all men.....
All, regardless of their religion, their faith, their color and their nation.......
The verse you gave me does NOT say that the Father draws ALL men to Christ. Does it Alan. In fact in John 6 we are shown that NOT all men are drawn by the Father to Christ and Christ Himself gives several examples of this.

alanmolstad

05-30-2014, 09:52 PM

The Son came to earth and took on a body--The Father did not. The Son died on the cross--The Father did not. . .what does the text say?...while Jesus was in his body did he do even one small thing that he did not see the father also doing?.....

Dont worry, you can look it up

alanmolstad

05-30-2014, 09:54 PM

http://biblehub.com/john/5-19.htm

so while we might not understand how...the truth is that this verse clearly states something that is sure.....and without doubt...

The Son can do NOTHING apart from the father.....

not be born....not feed people....not raise the dead....not even die.....

alanmolstad

05-30-2014, 09:55 PM

this means that when we read that the Son draws all people to himself that its actually the father that is drawing all men to himself.....though the son.

alanmolstad

05-30-2014, 09:56 PM

this actually is the reason god sent his son into the world.

in Christ God was drawing all men to Himself.....

alanmolstad

05-30-2014, 10:00 PM

you mean even the Lost are being drawn to God?.....yes

Even the unbeliever is being drawn to god?....yes, even they who have no faith in God at all, are at all times being drawn to god.....

Is it only by the things that are made that we are drawn?....NO, you cant say for sure what is the one thing that helps the most for a person to believe...Jesus said this when he talked about people "born of the spirit" being like the wind...we dont know where it came from or where it goes...

But there is no doubt in the text that the things that are made do proclaim the name of Jesus to the world of
men!~

alanmolstad

05-30-2014, 10:02 PM

The verse you gave me does NOT say that the Father draws ALL men to Christ. Does it Alan. In fact in John 6 we are shown that NOT all men are drawn by the Father to Christ and Christ Himself gives several examples of this.

(King James Bible)
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

http://biblehub.com/john/5-19.htm

Nothing about the life of Christ was without the father's design.......every move he made, each sentence he spoke was due to the father saying it..
For the truth is, we can know NOTHING abut the father except it is shown us in the Son.......

Thus when we read that the son draws all men to himself we can understand that the only reason Christ would be even able to do this is that the father is actually the one doing the real drawing of people to Himself.....

So in other words...If you want to see the father drawing all men to Himself just look at the Son drawing all men to himself.....

there you go!

cheachea

05-30-2014, 10:11 PM

(King James Bible)
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

That's a Good Verse Right There.

alanmolstad

05-30-2014, 10:13 PM

That's a Good Verse Right There.for some of us, yes....it is a good verse.

For others?...well, the sad truth is that a few people really want to skip over that verse, or try to make it meaningless.......

Billyray

05-30-2014, 10:18 PM

for some of us, yes....it is a good verse.

For others?...well, the sad truth is that a few people really want to skip over that verse, or try to make it meaningless.......
John 5:19
Jesus gave them this answer: "Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

Alan could you answer a couple of questions for me?

1. Was the Father born of Mary?
2. Did the Father come to earth and take on a body?
3. Did the Father die on the cross?

Billyray

05-30-2014, 10:26 PM

So in other words...If you want to see the father drawing all men to Himself just look at the Son drawing all men to himself.....

John 6
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

Those in verse 64 who did not believe were not enabled by the Father. If what you say is true that ALL men are drawn by the Father to the Son why couldn't those in verse 64 come to Christ?

alanmolstad

05-30-2014, 10:36 PM

Libby

05-31-2014, 12:04 AM

You all have been very busy.

Cheachea, I love that verse, as well!

Alan, you have done a great *** of showing how all men are drawn, IMO.

Personally, I think this subject has been pretty well hashed over. We seem to be in "repeat" mode.

Billyray

05-31-2014, 12:37 AM

Billyray

05-31-2014, 12:38 AM

Alan, you have done a great *** of showing how all men are drawn, IMO.

Libby and how exactly has Alan shown that all men are drawn by the Father to Christ?

Libby

05-31-2014, 01:42 AM

Libby and how exactly has Alan shown that all men are drawn by the Father to Christ?

By quoting two simple verses.

Billyray

05-31-2014, 03:44 AM

By quoting two simple verses.
And neither verse says that the Father draws all men to Christ. Also you seem to forget that in John 6 Christ tells us in multiple verses that not all men have the ability to come to him, so this alone disproves what you and Alan believe.

alanmolstad

05-31-2014, 05:30 AM

alanmolstad

05-31-2014, 05:39 AM

alanmolstad

05-31-2014, 05:44 AM

And neither verse says that the Father draws all men to Christ. Also you seem to forget that in John 6 Christ tells us in multiple verses that not all men have the ability to come to him, so this alone disproves what you and Alan believe.

all men are different, we all have different things we do well, and other things we do differently than others.

But the Lord is the same Lord...and he draws all of us.....
From the beginning of Time this has been true.
There never was a moment that god was not active in drawing men to Himself.

Now if a person had no ability to respond to the Lord's calling, then that person would be not guilty of anything in God's eyes.

This would mean that jesus was wrong when he said that the people of the city "would not" come to him.
If the people in the city lacked the ability to respond to God, then Jesus should have said that the people "could not" come.

And if the people "could not" come, then they cant be held guilty by God of anything.....

alanmolstad

05-31-2014, 05:49 AM

John 5:19
Jesus gave them this answer: "Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

......
"because whatever the Father does the Son also does."
that is all Im saying........

The Son does ONLY what he sees the Father doing.
Thus, when we read that Jesus healed a sick person we can understand that the ONLY reason Jesus healed that person is because Jesus saw the father healing that person.

The same is true when Jesus fed the many people....The fact that we read that Jesus fed the people it also means that Jesus could ONLY do this because he saw the father feeding the people.

Alone Jesus could do nothing....

So when we read that Jesus drew all men to himself, it is only because Jesus saw the father drawing all men to himself.....

because whatever the Father does (draw all men) the Son also does (draws all men).

alanmolstad

05-31-2014, 07:15 AM

By quoting two simple verses......I enjoyed that answer....:)

alanmolstad

05-31-2014, 09:19 AM

Libby, here is a short little link to some stuff I found on a search..

http://www.bible.ca/ef/expository-john-6-44.htm

"How God Draws People Unto Himself:

The context of Jesus' statement explains how God draws men and women to Himself. There is nothing mystical about it.
The following verse in the context (John 6:45) reveals how God draws men unto Himself.
"It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught of God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me."
Note the words "taught" and "every man" (all drawn the same way; by being taught) and "hear" and "learn" and "come".

These are not mystical words. They are common, everyday words which are used to describe how it is that people are drawn to Christ.

What is it that is taught and heard and learned?
The means or method by which God "calls'' or "draws'' all men is the Gospel.
"And it was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." (II Thessalonians 2:14).
There is no special, mystical anointing of the Holy Spirit, but rather, the Holy Spirit calls men through the gospel; and it is the gospel that is the power (Romans 1:16).

God draws people unto Himself through the teaching of the gospel.
The preaching of the gospel is God's power, his drawing power, to save (I Corinthians 1:18-21).
Therefore, all people, when they hear the gospel, at any moment, have the ability to respond to God's gospel call.
They also have the ability to reject it (Acts 13:45-48).

Sinners are saved by God's grace when they respond in faithful obedience to the gospel that draws them to God (Matthew 7:21).
God is always ready for men to repent and obey (Acts 17:30).
It is those who will do so that God has predestined for salvation (1 Thessalonians 5:9).
This is an important concept to recognize.
God has not predestined individuals to be saved or lost, but rather, has predestined the method by which we are saved.
If we obey the gospel, we are baptized "into Christ" (Romans 6:3,4).
God has predestined all those "in Christ" to be "blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places" (Ephesians 1:3).

But it is up to us as to whether we will obey or not."

Libby

05-31-2014, 11:45 AM

Thanks much for the link, Alan. I've bookmarked that.

Libby

05-31-2014, 02:31 PM

Sent to me by a friend, so thought I would share.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zf_0jzPQ8lo

teenapenny

05-31-2014, 03:27 PM

Sent to me by a friend, so thought I would share.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zf_0jzPQ8lo
Thank you so much, it brought tears to my eyes. I hope I have the faith to know when he sends me a message.

Billyray

05-31-2014, 04:34 PM

yes...free Will...

All are drawn by the Lord....but not all respond.

It's like hearing the church bell on Sunday morning...all hear it, and no one goes to church that does not hear it....and all the people that later are in church are there having heard the bell....

Its the same with heaven too!

All in heaven are there only because they were drawn by the Lord.
All in church on Sunday were there because they were drawn there by the sound of the bell........
John 6
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

Alan do you believe that those in verse 64 were drawn by the Father to Christ?

Billyray

05-31-2014, 04:35 PM

But the Lord is the same Lord...and he draws all of us.....
From the beginning of Time this has been true.
There never was a moment that god was not active in drawing men to Himself.
Can you provide me with a single verse in the entire Bible that shows that the Father draws ALL men to Christ?

Billyray

05-31-2014, 04:47 PM

Libby, here is a short little link to some stuff I found on a search..

http://www.bible.ca/ef/expository-john-6-44.htm

"How God Draws People Unto Himself:

The context of Jesus' statement explains how God draws men and women to Himself. There is nothing mystical about it.
The following verse in the context (John 6:45) reveals how God draws men unto Himself.
"It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught of God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me."
Note the words "taught" and "every man" (all drawn the same way; by being taught) and "hear" and "learn" and "come". . .
Alan, John 6:44-45 doesn't teach that ALL men are drawn by the Father to the Son. In fact it is just the opposite. Those who are drawn will come to Him. Those who are taught will come to Him.

John 6
44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

BK Commentary
John 6:43- 44

Jesus made no attempt to correct their ignorance other than to rebuke their grumbling and to point them to the drawing and teaching ministry of God. They are not in a position to judge Him. Without God's help any ***essment of God's Messenger will be faulty. No one can come to Jesus or believe on Him without divine help. People are so ensnared in the quicksand of sin and unbelief that unless God draws them (cf. v. 65), they are hopeless. This drawing of God is not limited to a few. Jesus said, "I... will draw all men to Myself" (12:32). This does not mean that all will be saved but that Greeks (i. e., Gentiles; 12:20) as well as Jews will be saved. Those who will be saved will also be resurrected (cf. 6:39- 40).

In support of this doctrine of salvation by God's grace, Jesus cited the Old Testament. The quotation, They will all be taught by God, is from the Prophets, probably Isaiah 54:13, though Jeremiah 31:34 has the same thought. This "teaching" of God refers to His inner work that disposes people to accept the truth about Jesus and respond to Him. Everyone who listens to and learns from God will come to and believe in Jesus. . ."

Libby

05-31-2014, 05:23 PM

Thank you so much, it brought tears to my eyes. I hope I have the faith to know when he sends me a message.

Hi teenapenny! I'm so glad you enjoyed it. I thought it was very touching, as well, and seemed to pertain to all of this talk about knowing God through the universe.

Libby

05-31-2014, 07:13 PM

John 6
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

Alan do you believe that those in verse 64 were drawn by the Father to Christ?

I was curious about how Arminians interpret those verses, so I looked it up and this is one of the sites I found. Very interesting and enlightening, I think.

http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/Gospels/John6_44.html

Excerpt:

"That’s what hurts the Calvinist interpretation, since it is proof-texted without any regard to the dialogue. This is the drawing of believing Jews who had “heard and learned from the Father” (v.45), as the faithful remnant of Israel whom God was drawing to His Son, starting from the ministry of John the Baptist. Jesus states: “He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.” (John 8:47) Jesus adds, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.” (John 8:42) They were not of God. If they were of God, He would have gladly given and drawn them to His Son, since that was His desire for Israel, having spread out His hands all day long for them. (Isaiah 65:2) Nevertheless, God warned of what He would do, should they refuse to turn back to Him (Jeremiah 18:1-13), which was prophesied at Isaiah 6:9-10, and fulfilled at John 12:37-43, being a temporary and partial hardening of the Jews until the times of the Gentiles are complete. (Romans 11:25) So the Father’s drawing of John 6:44 is not speaking of humanity in general, or of a special cl*** of the Calvinistically elect, but of the Father’s drawing of the already covenant believers and sheep, to His Son, which is not to be confused with the Son’s later post-Calvary drawing of all men in general. (John 12:32)"

There is a lot more explanation, if you care to read through it.

Basically, he is saying, that those who are not being drawn are not in sync with what God had already given them. The Jewish leadership whom Jesus often criticized and anyone else who had fallen off the wagon, so to speak. These verses pertain, specifically, to the Jews of that day....and in a broader context, to anyone who is "following", but whose heart is not really right with God.

Billyray

05-31-2014, 07:40 PM

Basically, he is saying, that those who are not being drawn are not in sync with what God had already given them.

John 6
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[d] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

If a person is not drawn/enabled then they are unable to come to Christ--which Jesus say mentions not just once but three separate times in John 6 alone. Also don't forget what Paul says in Romans 3 about man.

Romans 3
10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”

Billyray

05-31-2014, 07:45 PM

John 10:26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep.

Why didn't those spoken about in verse 26 believe?

Billyray

05-31-2014, 07:53 PM

I was curious about how Arminians interpret those verses, so I looked it up and this is one of the sites I found. Very interesting and enlightening, I think.

http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/Gospels/John6_44.html

Excerpt:
". . .So the Father’s drawing of John 6:44 is not speaking of humanity in general, or of a special cl*** of the Calvinistically elect, but of the Father’s drawing of the already covenant believers and sheep, to His Son, which is not to be confused with the Son’s later post-Calvary drawing of all men in general. (John 12:32). . ."

John 6
44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[d] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

Libby if you read the quote that you provided and think about it for a minute you will see that it doesn't make sense. In the quote it says "drawing of the already covenant believers". An OT believer--believes by definition. But in order to be a believer you have to be drawn. Don't you see the problem with this explanation?

Billyray

05-31-2014, 08:02 PM

http://www.bible.ca/ef/expository-john-6-44.htm

God draws people unto Himself through the teaching of the gospel.

John 6
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

Notice what Jesus says about this exact subject. Lots of people who followed Christ heard his message. In fact those in verse 36 followed Jesus and heard his message YET they did not believe. WHY? Jesus tells us why in verse 37 "ALL those the Father gives me will come to me".

Billyray

05-31-2014, 09:05 PM

for some of us, yes....it is a good verse.

For others?...well, the sad truth is that a few people really want to skip over that verse, or try to make it meaningless.......

John 5:19
Jesus gave them this answer: "Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

Alan could you answer a couple of questions for me?

1. Was the Father born of Mary?
2. Did the Father come to earth and take on a body?
3. Did the Father die on the cross?

"because whatever the Father does the Son also does."
that is all Im saying........

The Son does ONLY what he sees the Father doing.

Alan are you going to answer the above questions?

Libby

06-01-2014, 01:09 AM

Libby

06-01-2014, 01:14 AM

John 6
44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[d] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

Libby if you read the quote that you provided and think about it for a minute you will see that it doesn't make sense. In the quote it says "drawing of the already covenant believers". An OT believer--believes by definition. But in order to be a believer you have to be drawn. Don't you see the problem with this explanation?

No, not really.

Let me ask you something, Billy. Were all of God's "chosen people" believers? Were all of the Apostles, "chosen" by Christ, believers? Were God/Christ only drawing believers?

Billyray

06-01-2014, 01:40 AM

John 6
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

Notice what Jesus says about this exact subject. Lots of people who followed Christ heard his message. In fact those in verse 36 followed Jesus and heard his message YET they did not believe. WHY? Jesus tells us why in verse 37 "ALL those the Father gives me will come to me".

Okay. I don't disagree. All of those given by the Father were those he knew would believe.
Libby I don't think you have thought this one through. This is your foreknowledge defense that you have given before but how can those who the Father knew would believe--believe in Christ in the first place unless they are drawn by the Father?

Billyray

06-01-2014, 01:48 AM

Let me ask you something, Billy. Were all of God's "chosen people" believers? Were all of the Apostles, "chosen" by Christ, believers? Were God/Christ only drawing believers?
Those who are believers are by definition believers. Here was the quote that you gave me--"drawing of the already covenant believers". Not all the Jews were believers.

Were God/Christ only drawing believers?

No. Those who are drawn by the Father to Christ are unbelievers--you are unable to believe UNTIL you are drawn by the Father to Christ.

John 6
44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

alanmolstad

06-01-2014, 08:23 AM

sure.....I have one weekend where Im too busy to post on the computer, and EVERYONE else is free to post?

alanmolstad

06-01-2014, 08:28 AM

and in a broader context, to anyone who is "following", but whose heart is not really right with God.

yes, all are drawn by God to His son, but the responce of many is lacking.

Its like the church bells that calls all to worship in the town.
All hear the sound of the bell, all know what it more-or-less means.....but the response in many to the call of the bell is lacking.

alanmolstad

06-01-2014, 08:31 AM

Alan are you going to answer the above questions?
Think about it...did Christ do ANYTHING, (be born, live, heal the sick, even go to the bathroom) that was not something he saw the father doing?........nope!

All that the son did was because he was SENT and he did only what the father was doing though him!
Was Jesus ever doing anything without the father?
When Jesus was born of Mary, was this just his own idea?...was it even just his own doing?.....after all, who gave Jesus his body?

So the truth is, that Jesus only did on the cross what the father was doing.......

if the Son went to heal someone it is only because the Son saw the father going to heal.
If the Son drew all men to himself on the cross, it is only because the Son saw the father drawing all men to Himself though the cross....

The cross is where God drew all men to himself!.......AMEN!

alanmolstad

06-01-2014, 08:47 AM

44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Just as no one can come to my church on Sunday morning without first hearing the bell draw them there.....
Even if they dont get up they cant help but hear the church drawing them to get up and going.

And if later we see the people walking into the church we can say, "All who are here have heard the bell calling them"...and...."No person can walk into church without first being called by the bell to come"...and "all who hear and come will be allowed in and never turned away" (see verse 44 above)

So a person can walk into the church and say, "I heard the bell call me, and that is why I am here"

But we also understand that a lot more people heard the bell that morning than actually walk in the door of the church later.

So why does the church ring the bell if the only people that show up are just the people registered with the church and it's known members?

The reason is that the members of the church love all the people of the whole town, regardless of the different religions they may be a part of.
So even if the church knows that only it's own members will attend church today, yet still it is out of love that the church will ring the bell and offer to every person the same call to come and worship God with us.

This fits with the verse where it teaches that "god so loved the Whole World..."
God loves the whole world...not just the elect....not just the few who worship him...not just the number that God always knew would be Christians....No, God loves the Whole World!

This is also why the Bible tells us that we can seek God and find him!

We dont have to read a book...
We dont have to climb a mountain...
We dont have to swim in a holy river...

All we need to do is seek God within our hearts and the Bible tells us that if we seek Him we shall find him......regardless of our situation at the time or place in the world...
We will find him!

This also is why the Bible teaches that the world that is made also teaches us about God....
And this fact is not by accident.
For God made all the things of this universe in such a manner as to be able to draw all men to Himself.

So no matter where in the universe you live....
And no matter how far from a church you were born...
Nor what strange religion you were raised to believe in.....it is yet there always before you this drawing action of God drawing you to Himself, as seen clearly in the things that are made.

alanmolstad

06-01-2014, 08:58 AM

alanmolstad

06-01-2014, 10:14 AM

and....naturally, when I did have some free time to post, none other were around.

Thus i have no doubt now that because my free time to post is now ended and i must get going that out of the woodwork will come all the other members of this forum to start posting what im sure will be another 70 posts by the time I check-in tonight. LOL..:confused:

alanmolstad

06-01-2014, 10:16 AM

For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

alanmolstad

06-01-2014, 10:17 AM

In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

alanmolstad

06-01-2014, 10:18 AM

who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

alanmolstad

06-01-2014, 10:19 AM

"Mine eyes have seen thy salvation, which thou hast prepared before the face of all people

alanmolstad

06-01-2014, 10:21 AM

"And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

"Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does."

Billyray

06-01-2014, 11:01 AM

For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.
The OFFER is given to all of those who have heard about Christ. And anyone who places their faith in Christ will be saved.

Billyray

06-01-2014, 11:08 AM

"Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does."

1. Was the Father born of Mary?
2. Did the Father come to earth and take on a body?
3. Did the Father die on a cross?

Billyray

06-01-2014, 11:10 AM

"And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

Can a person come to Christ without being drawn by the Father?

alanmolstad

06-01-2014, 12:28 PM

alanmolstad

06-01-2014, 12:30 PM

The OFFER is given to all of those who have heard about Christ. And anyone who places their faith in Christ will be saved.

I believe the verse says "all people"...LOL...... not just a lucky few.....
God so loved the "whole world"...not just a lucky few....

alanmolstad

06-01-2014, 12:32 PM

1. Was the Father born of Mary?
2. Did the Father come to earth and take on a body?
3. Did the Father die on a cross?

see post #877

alanmolstad

06-01-2014, 12:46 PM

Think about it...did Christ do ANYTHING, (be born, live, heal the sick, even go to the bathroom) that was not something he saw the father doing?........nope!

All that the son did was because he was SENT and he did only what the father was doing though him!
Was Jesus ever doing anything without the father?
When Jesus was born of Mary, was this just his own idea?...was it even just his own doing?.....after all, who gave Jesus his body?
y
So the truth is, that Jesus only did on the cross what the father was doing.......

if the Son went to heal someone it is only because the Son saw the father going to heal.
If the Son drew all men to himself on the cross, it is only because the Son saw the father drawing all men to Himself though the cross....

The cross is where God drew all men to himself!.......AMEN!bump......

Billyray

06-01-2014, 01:23 PM

Billyray

06-01-2014, 01:25 PM

I believe the verse says "all people"...LOL...... not just a lucky few.....
God so loved the "whole world"...not just a lucky few....
I never said "just a lucky few". Did I? Here is what I said again. "The OFFER is given to all of those who have heard about Christ. And anyone who places their faith in Christ will be saved."

Billyray

06-01-2014, 01:27 PM

Billyray

06-01-2014, 01:28 PM

In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
Can you explain what you mean by your statement?

alanmolstad

06-01-2014, 01:41 PM

Alan do you have an answer for me?

Can a person come to Christ without being drawn by the Father?
see post #878

alanmolstad

06-01-2014, 01:43 PM

Can you explain what you mean by your statement?

see post #879

alanmolstad

06-01-2014, 01:44 PM

Can you explain what you mean by your statement?

"all people everwhere".........means ALL PEOPLE!.....EVERWHERE!

alanmolstad

06-01-2014, 01:46 PM

Alan you belief is not supported by any other Christian on this board. Do you realize that?
James is gone......so who is this list of "others" you speak of?

Billyray

06-01-2014, 03:18 PM

Can a person come to Christ without being drawn by the Father?

can any person be born and yet live in a universe that was not made by the Son and always reflect the Maker's hand?......let me know how......LOL

Alan do you have an answer for me?

Can a person come to Christ without being drawn by the Father?

see post #878
Here is post #878

All we need to do is seek God within our hearts and the Bible tells us that if we seek Him we shall find him......regardless of our situation at the time or place in the world...
We will find him!

This also is why the Bible teaches that the world that is made also teaches us about God....
And this fact is not by accident.
For God made all the things of this universe in such a manner as to be able to draw all men to Himself.

You didn't answer my question in post #878.

But I take it from our ongoing discussion that you believe that anyone can come to Christ without the Father drawing them to Christ.

Alan did I get that right?

Billyray

06-01-2014, 03:21 PM

Think about it...did Christ do ANYTHING, (be born, live, heal the sick, even go to the bathroom) that was not something he saw the father doing?........nope!

Alan you belief is not supported by any other Christian on this board. Do you realize that?

James is gone......so who is this list of "others" you speak of?
Walk into any mainstream Christian church and you will not find any Christian that agrees with you Alan.

Billyray

06-01-2014, 03:25 PM

In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

Can you explain what you mean by your statement?

"all people everwhere".........means ALL PEOPLE!.....EVERWHERE!
Perhaps you didn't notice the part that I bolded in you statement. Can you explain what you mean by that?

alanmolstad

06-01-2014, 03:31 PM

Walk into any mainstream Christian church and you will not find any Christian that agrees with you Alan.

no really.
..who are these "others" on this board that you think I should be so afraid of disagreeing with?

alanmolstad

06-01-2014, 03:33 PM

Perhaps you didn't notice the part that I bolded in you statement. Can you explain what you mean by that?

it means.....

all

people

everwhere!

Libby

06-01-2014, 03:42 PM

I think he was asking about the "overlooking ignorance" part. I was kind of wondering about that myself. Will have to look into that.

Libby

06-01-2014, 03:44 PM

Billy, I wanted to ask you, again, about what the "drawing" verses mean to you, that you seem to believe we are missing?

You believe God draws only those whom he will save...right? Which is why you don't believe that all people are drawn..

But, the "drawing" verses don't really say that he draws only those whom he saves. I think that is implied by Calvinists.

Libby

06-01-2014, 03:47 PM

Also..(for Billy)....what is your problem with the verse about Jesus doing only what the Father does? Explain to me how you think it is being misused, please..

Billyray

06-01-2014, 05:17 PM

But, the "drawing" verses don't really say that he draws only those whom he saves.
That is exactly what they say. Let's look at them one more time and start with verses 36 and 36 first then we can move on to the next two in this chapter.

John 6
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

The reason that those in verse 36 did not believe is that were not given to the Son by the Father. If what you and Alan believe is true that the Father draws ALL men to Christ then they would be able to come to Christ. Let's talk about these verses first before we move on to the rest.

Billyray

06-01-2014, 05:21 PM

Also..(for Billy)....what is your problem with the verse about Jesus doing only what the Father does? Explain to me how you think it is being misused, please..
Let's look at Alan's statement again.

Think about it...did Christ do ANYTHING, (be born, live, heal the sick, even go to the bathroom) that was not something he saw the father doing?........nope!

Just look at Alan's statement and it should be obvious that what he has written was blatantly false. Do you believe that the Father was born, live (born), go to the bathroom. . .

Libby

06-01-2014, 05:44 PM

Let's look at Alan's statement again.

Just look at Alan's statement and it should be obvious that what he has written was blatantly false. Do you believe that the Father was born, live (born), go to the bathroom. . .

Okay, this first.

What does it mean to you, when Jesus says, "I can only do what I see the Father doing"...and "I and my Father are one"....AND..."If you know the Father, you know me"....??

What does the verse saying Christ draws all people to himself, mean to you? I know you probably answered this, already, but it's been awhile and I have forgotten.

Why are you making a separation between God the Father and Jesus, regarding that last verse?

Billyray

06-01-2014, 05:48 PM

Okay, this first.

ALAN said, "Think about it...did Christ do ANYTHING, (be born, live, heal the sick, even go to the bathroom) that was not something he saw the father doing?........nope!"

So let's settle what you asked about first before moving on. You asked me about what Alan said and I told you. Do you agree with what he said?

Libby

06-01-2014, 05:50 PM

That is exactly what they say. Let's look at them one more time and start with verses 36 and 36 first then we can move on to the next two in this chapter.

John 6
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

The reason that those in verse 36 did not believe is that were not given to the Son by the Father. If what you and Alan believe is true that the Father draws ALL men to Christ then they would be able to come to Christ. Let's talk about these verses first before we move on to the rest.

Okay. So, some do not believe. The reason they do not believe is because they have not been given, by the Father, to the Son.

But, does that, necessarily, mean they will never be given or drawn? No. On the other hand, perhaps they will never be "given", because they were just not ever going to believe.

Does the Father's "drawing", necessarily, equate to "giving" ? Drawing is simply enabling...but, some may still not believe. (Is how I'm looking at it)

Libby

06-01-2014, 05:52 PM

ALAN said, "Think about it...did Christ do ANYTHING, (be born, live, heal the sick, even go to the bathroom) that was not something he saw the father doing?........nope!"

So let's settle what you asked about first before moving on. You asked me about what Alan said and I told you. Do you agree with what he said?

I agree with him in principle, yes...because I don't think the Father and the Son do anything by themselves. They are one in Spirit, always....even when Christ was incarnate.

Billyray

06-01-2014, 05:54 PM

I agree with him in principle, yes...because I don't think the Father and the Son do anything by themselves. They are one in Spirit, always....even when Christ was incarnate.
Let's look at what he said and see if what he said was true.

Was the Father born and did he take on a physical body?

Did the Father die on the cross?

Billyray

06-01-2014, 06:00 PM

They are one in Spirit, always....even when Christ was incarnate.
Matthew 27:46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”)

What does this verse mean to you?

Libby

06-01-2014, 06:23 PM

Let's look at what he said and see if what he said was true.

Was the Father born and did he take on a physical body?

Did the Father die on the cross?

No, but that doesn't mean they were not still one in spirit. Surely you don't believe that they became totally separate, just because the Son became a man?

Libby

06-01-2014, 06:28 PM

Matthew 27:46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”)

What does this verse mean to you?

I think it could mean...when Christ was taking on the sins of the world...the Father had to turn His back on Him....but, I know there are alternative views. It's difficult to imagine that could even be possible, since they are of Truine nature, which I would think, inseparable....they are, in essence, the same Being.

Billyray

06-01-2014, 06:31 PM

No, but that doesn't mean they were not still one in spirit. Surely you don't believe that?
So basically you started off agreeing with what Alan said and you have finally come to your senses and realize that what he said was false. That is the problem with holding onto false ideas because you are then required to go to Bible and start to twist verses in order to try and come up with anything to support your position.

Billyray

06-01-2014, 06:35 PM

I think it could mean...when Christ was taking on the sins of the world...the Father had to turn His back on Him....but, I know there are alternative views. It's difficult to imagine that could even be possible, since they are of Truine nature, which I would think, inseparable....they are, in essence, the same Being.
I am sure you realize this but what Alan is doing--and you are egging him on--is trying to twist the scriptures such that when it says that Christ says draw all men--this is really the Father saying it (to try and support his false belief that all men are drawn by the Father to the Son). But this is modalism and I would not be surprised if Alan is a modalist rather than a believer in the Trinity.

Billyray

06-01-2014, 06:46 PM

. . . They are one in Spirit, always....even when Christ was incarnate.
Matthew 26:39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”

Can you comment on this verse and how it pertains to your views and Alan's views on this topic?

alanmolstad

06-01-2014, 08:11 PM

alanmolstad

06-01-2014, 08:12 PM

alanmolstad

06-01-2014, 08:15 PM

I think he was asking about the "overlooking ignorance" part. I was kind of wondering about that myself. Will have to look into that.

Let look at what we know from the verse itself > We know one thing clearly....its answered in the request to "repent"

To repent is to "change ones mind....

Unless you have the ability to do this via Free Will the request is silly....

alanmolstad

06-01-2014, 08:23 PM

That is exactly what they say. Let's look at them one more time and start with verses 36 and 36 first then we can move on to the next two in this chapter.

John 6
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

The reason that those in verse 36 did not believe is that were not given to the Son by the Father. If what you and Alan believe is true that the Father draws ALL men to Christ then they would be able to come to Christ. Let's talk about these verses first before we move on to the rest.

Yes....every person ever born is "able".......unless they have a issue with being drunk, or under some type of mind control or stuff like that.
The Lost are able, this is taught in the verse that had Jesus weep over the same type of people, telling us that they "would not" come to him....

If the people were totally unable to come to Christ no matter what, then Jesus made a big fat error, and he should have said that the people "could not" come to him.

Could Not = unable
Would Not = uninterested.

alanmolstad

06-01-2014, 08:25 PM

ALAN said, "Think about it...did Christ do ANYTHING, (be born, live, heal the sick, even go to the bathroom) that was not something he saw the father doing?........nope!"

So let's settle what you asked about first before moving on. You asked me about what Alan said and I told you. Do you agree with what he said?
I agree with what the Bible only says, guy.....Libby, James, and whomever should too.

alanmolstad

06-01-2014, 08:31 PM

the unity of the Trinity is such, that at no point in His life did the Lord jesus ever do or say anything, that was not something he saw the father saying or doing.....

Every step of his life was because he was following the footsteps of the father.....

Jesus did NOTHING on his own.

Jesus could do NOTHING on his own.

So when the Lord says he would raw all men to himself, it is only because the son saw the Father drawning all men to Himself.

And, this also means, .......That if the Son did not see the father drawing all men to himself, then the Son could not draw all men to himself as well....

Thats the truth kids.......

alanmolstad

06-01-2014, 08:38 PM

Matthew 26:39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”

Can you comment on this verse and how it pertains to your views and Alan's views on this topic?
Jesus did not come here to do his own will....

This is why when we read the verse that teaches that Jesus draws "all men:, or "all people" to himself, that this is actually only because the father is drawing :all men" to himself.....

Jesus could not do anything apart from the father.....

alanmolstad

06-01-2014, 08:42 PM

I agree with him in principle, yes...because I don't think the Father and the Son do anything by themselves. They are one in Spirit, always....even when Christ was incarnate.

this is true...Jesus never did anything apart from the will of the father......

Jesus cleary says, thsat by himself he could do "nothing"

so Libby, this is why when we read about the Son drawing all men to himself we do clearly understand that this is only because the Lord Jesus saw the FATHER drawing all men to himself......!!!!!!!!!!!!

can I get an "Amen"?

Billyray

06-01-2014, 08:43 PM

Yes....every person ever born is "able"......
John 6
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

But that is not what is says in multiple places in John 6 says Alan. Those in verse 36 did not believe because they were not given by the Father to the Son. And we can look at the other verses in John 6 with say that there were those who were unable to come to Him. But you are ignoring those verses.

alanmolstad

06-01-2014, 08:45 PM

I am sure you realize this but what Alan is doing--and you are egging him on--is trying to twist the scriptures such that when it says that Christ says draw all men--this is really the Father saying it (to try and support his false belief that all men are drawn by the Father to the Son). But this is modalism and I would not be surprised if Alan is a modalist rather than a believer in the Trinity.

a needless personal attack.....Try to stick to the Text billy....
You dont need to muck the topic up with person stuff.....

Billyray

06-01-2014, 08:46 PM

so Libby, this is why when we read about the Son drawing all men to himself we do clearly understand that this is only because the Lord Jesus saw the FATHER drawing all men to himself......!!!!!!!!!!!!

First you don't have a single verse in the entire Bible that says that the Father draws ALL men--in fact John 6 alone refutes this idea. Second if you actually read the entire chapter of John 12 you wouldn't claim that the verse you are quoting is referring to individuals. But you don't want to know about the other verses because it doesn't support your false belief.

alanmolstad

06-01-2014, 08:47 PM

Walk into any mainstream Christian church and you will not find any Christian that agrees with you Alan.Im still looking for the list of "other" posters that you think have views that carry so much weight that I dont dare call into question what they teach?

Billyray

06-01-2014, 08:47 PM

a needless personal attack.....Try to stick to the Text billy....
You dont need to muck the topic up with person stuff.....
Did you bother reading the surrounding verses for your proof text in John 12?

Billyray

06-01-2014, 08:49 PM

Im still looking for the list of "other" posters that you think have views that carry so much weight that I dont dare call into question what they teach?
Alan you won't listen to reason, nor will you read the scriptures as written. You are making things up as you go along. No other Christian agrees with you on this. Can I ask you a question? Are you a modalist?

alanmolstad

06-01-2014, 08:53 PM

John 6
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

But that is not what is says in multiple places in John 6 says Alan. Those in verse 36 did not believe because they were not given by the Father to the Son. And we can look at the other verses in John 6 with say that there were those who were unable to come to Him. But you are ignoring those verses.
Its not just the people that are drawn, or the people that hear....the person actually has to be "taught'

This is like when the local church bell rings on Sunday mormong....it might wake up a lot of people, but some people just roll over and go back to sleep.

So its not the number of people that hear the bell that is inportant to the church in the end...its the number of people that walk in the door.

yet every person that does walk in the door actually do report that "They heard" the bell call them...........

Every person that goes to Heaven was drawn there by god...

Every person that goes to hell has turned away from the light from heaven that was sent to them.....and this light from heaven was not sent to them accidentally!

for it was sent from the "beginning"

alanmolstad

06-01-2014, 08:57 PM

Alan you won't listen to reason, nor will you read the scriptures as written. You are making things up as you go along. No other Christian agrees with you on this. Can I ask you a question? Are you a modalist?Im a Christian.....

But people do see that Im speaking out against a lot of man-made teachings that have twisted their way under the tent....I support the anti-Mormon...anti-CULT.....and Anti-Calvin....stuff with many of my views.

However Im just a basic christian.....perhaps a bit older than most guests...but still just a normal guy......

Billyray

06-01-2014, 08:57 PM

Its not just the people that are drawn, or the people that hear....the person actually has to be "taught'

But you said yourself that anyone who looks at creations knows everything about Jesus. So are you now moving away from that idea now?

Billyray

06-01-2014, 08:58 PM

Im a Christian.....

But people do see that Im speaking out against a lot of man-made teachings that have twisted their way under the tent....I support the anti-Mormon...anti-CULT.....and Anti-Calvin....stuff with many of my views.

However Im just a basic christian.....perhaps a bit older than most guests...but still just a normal guy......
The reason that I ask is because your views seem consistent with what a modalist would believe. So would you cl***ify yourself as a modalist?

alanmolstad

06-01-2014, 08:59 PM

Libby, or whomever...

to check out my views, just go GOOGE the topic...
"Does God draw all men?"........trust me, you are going to see that "Alan's not so alone after all".....LOL;)

alanmolstad

06-01-2014, 09:01 PM

The reason that I ask is because your views seem consistent with what a modalist would believe. So would you cl***ify yourself as a modalist?

well..I would say that if you try to pin the name "modalist" on me one more time, I will report you for it......so whats that tell you guy?

alanmolstad

06-01-2014, 09:04 PM

well..I would say that if you try to pin the name "modalist" on me one more time, I will report you for it......so whats that tell you guy?

I remember James's wife also tried to pin my good name with some ***le or another.......
Where is she again?........

Billyray

06-01-2014, 09:06 PM

well..I would say that if you try to pin the name "modalist" on me one more time, I will report you for it......so whats that tell you guy?
Fair enough. I will ask you some question that will solve this--if you choose to answer them.

When the Father was born?

When did the Father die on the cross?

Billyray

06-01-2014, 09:08 PM

I remember James's wife also tried to pin my good name with some ***le or another.......
Where is she again?........
Do you blame her? Why waste time with someone who doesn't listen and is unreasonable--especially when they have gone through things over and over again?

alanmolstad

06-01-2014, 09:12 PM

Fair enough. I will ask you some question that will solve this--if you choose to answer them.

When the Father was born?

When did the Father die on the cross?already answered.....some post in the 800s if i remember...

alanmolstad

06-01-2014, 09:13 PM

Do you blame her? Why waste time with someone who doesn't listen and is unreasonable--especially when they have gone through things over and over again?

Im sure she would be here......if she could......

(notice i use the word "could", not the "would" that Christ talked about. He was talking about interest, Im talking about ability)

alanmolstad

06-01-2014, 09:19 PM

But you said yourself that anyone who looks at creations knows everything about Jesus. So are you now moving away from that idea now?You really dont need anyone to talk to it seems?

You just pull stuff out of thin air and say that this is what other's believe dont you?....

Why should I bother to answer any questions from you if you are just going to invent your own stuff for me to believe?.......

alanmolstad

06-01-2014, 09:26 PM

http://www.intouch.org/magazine/content/topic/4424#.U4vsvSgw9co

the first hit on Google by the way......

alanmolstad

06-01-2014, 09:28 PM

You keep telling me that my views are unknown within the church.....well......take a moment and do a GOOGLE search for "Does God draw all men?"

Guess what?, my views are not just my own........LOL :cool:

Yes, my views are "unknown" in the little world of the Calvinist church...but it does seem also clear now that when you do a real search of the topic you find that Alan's views are very common within the greater christian body.......

Libby

06-01-2014, 09:33 PM

Yes, I'm fairly sure Arminian views (or some blend of the two, like with Walter Martin) are much more common than straight TULIP believers.

My-my, you two have been busy...where to start? :D

Libby

06-01-2014, 09:43 PM

So basically you started off agreeing with what Alan said and you have finally come to your senses and realize that what he said was false. That is the problem with holding onto false ideas because you are then required to go to Bible and start to twist verses in order to try and come up with anything to support your position.

Billy, I don't think Alan holds false beliefs and I don't see him trying to twist anything. You keep asking, so called, "gotcha" questions, which are really not in the spirit of what Alan is trying to say. You keep getting bogged down in technicalities that don't relate to what he is saying. The fact that you think I am finally "coming to my senses", tells me that....because I still much more agree with the "spirit" of Alan's explanations, than I do with what it is you are desperately trying to "pin down".

This whole thing about not accepting that Christ "drawing all men" means exactly what it says and has nothing to do with Christ and the Father, somehow, being "separate persons"...which we all agree, they ARE. But, in SPIRIT they are always ONE. Yes, Christ became incarnate and did things the Father did not do, physically, but HE was right there with Jesus in SPIRIT. So, why are you trying to make something out of the verse that says very directly, Christ draws all people to himself? I think you are the one who is trying to "twist" scripture to your own beliefs.

Libby

06-01-2014, 09:46 PM

this is true...Jesus never did anything apart from the will of the father......

Jesus cleary says, thsat by himself he could do "nothing"

so Libby, this is why when we read about the Son drawing all men to himself we do clearly understand that this is only because the Lord Jesus saw the FATHER drawing all men to himself......!!!!!!!!!!!!

can I get an "Amen"?

Amen, brother! :)

Libby

06-01-2014, 10:14 PM

First you don't have a single verse in the entire Bible that says that the Father draws ALL men--in fact John 6 alone refutes this idea. Second if you actually read the entire chapter of John 12 you wouldn't claim that the verse you are quoting is referring to individuals. But you don't want to know about the other verses because it doesn't support your false belief.

There are a lot of verses, like John 3:16, which indicate that God's sacrifice of His Son was intended for the whole world.

Billy, I just reread John 12. I think it is verses 37-41 that you would want to focus on to try and prove that God did not intend to draw all peoples.

Belief and Unbelief Among the Jews

37 Even after Jesus had performed so many signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. 38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:

“Lord, who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”[h]
39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:

40 “He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn—and I would heal them.”[i]
41 Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him.

I think the same explanation applies here, as the one I gave earlier (the site I linked). Many of the Jews had long since stopped truly following God, even though they gave the appearance of following (they were following the law, but not with their hearts). They were not right with God. So, they didn't recognize the Messiah, when He came.

alanmolstad

06-02-2014, 04:39 AM

Billy, I don't think Alan holds false beliefs and I don't see him trying to twist anything. You keep asking, so called, "gotcha" questions, which are really not in the spirit of what Alan is trying to say.
My view is that Jesus could do nothing by himself , as the bible tells us over and over.

That is all Im saying.

Thus when Jesus says he would draw all men to himself it means that Jesus was just doing what he was told to do by the Father.
For it is the Father who is the one who is actually drawing all men to Himself though Jesus Christ.

But to counter this, Billy has tried to slip in the idea that because Jesus was physical that this proves that the father was not drawing all men, because the father was not physical.

But, this idea of Billy's is just bad 'thinking"

Its bad thinking because when we say that God is 'drawing' all men, we dont mean "physically"

When Jesus says that he can only do what he sees the Father doing, we dont mean "Physically".......

When the Bible tells us that Jesus could do nothing unless he saw the father doing it, as in when Jesus sat down and had something to eat he did not have to actually prove that the father at some point in history was born, and got hungry, and sat down.

So Billy's argument is a bit silly....

Rather what we are talking about is the "spirit"......that is the union here between the Son and the Father....
Christ and the father are one in spirit.

They are in union of thinking......they have the same goals......they are doing the same work...

So I am not at all willing for even one moment to get sidetracked by Billy into the argument that just because the father was not flesh that this means that within union of spirit and agreement there was a separation between the father and the Son....

There was NO Separation!

Billy's argument is a big pile of FAIL....LOL

So.....to wrap it up Libby and Billy,
When Jesus tells us that he will draw all men to himself, we don't mean "physically".
If we only meant physically then it would be true that the Son was doing things that the father could not do.

Jesus could pick up his foot and look at it, that father could not do this...But this is a moot point!
It has nothing to do with the idea of drawing all men to himself, for the physical and the spirit are not like that.

For as we all know, Jesus did not actually physically pull anyone up on to the cross with him....we therefore understand that when Jesus spoke these words (about drawing all men to himself) He was talking about a spiritual drawing on all men to himself....
Not the physical drawing.

And as this is spiritual, we know that Jesus could not have done this drawing of all men to Himself without Him seeing that this is what the father is also doing....

And thus.....when we read that the Son draws all men we have the correct understanding that by this the Father is also drawing all men to Himself.

disciple

06-02-2014, 05:53 AM

This really sounds like everyone has the choice to except the gift of eternal life.

“Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: Eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.’ Romans 2:4-11

alanmolstad

06-02-2014, 07:23 AM

http://christianity.net.au/questions/how_do_i_know_when_god_is_drawing_me_to_himself

again, I did a google search and this link was the very first one posted.

To quote the link -
"So to answer your question, God is drawing all people to himself through the cross of Jesus"

Billyray

06-02-2014, 05:48 PM

. . .Billy, I just reread John 12. I think it is verses 37-41 that you would want to focus on to try and prove that God did not intend to draw all peoples.

Belief and Unbelief Among the Jews

37 Even after Jesus had performed so many signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. 38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:

“Lord, who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”[h]
39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:

40 “He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn—and I would heal them.”[i]
41 Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him.

I think the same explanation applies here, as the one I gave earlier (the site I linked). Many of the Jews had long since stopped truly following God, even though they gave the appearance of following (they were following the law, but not with their hearts). They were not right with God. So, they didn't recognize the Messiah, when He came.
You wanted to discuss the verse in John 12 but in order to understand what he meant by his statement you have to read the verse in context of the surrounding verse of this chapter. But first since you already noticed one important section in the surrounding verses of this chapter lets focus on that first then we can go back and discuss the context of this chapter.

You said "Many of the Jews had long since stopped truly following God". In fact the majority did not follow God because if they had they would believe in the Messiah--which is Christ--and they rejected Christ. Now let's look at verse 37 which you quoted in your post and see what it says.

Joh 12:37 Even after Jesus had performed so many signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him.

Here we have Jesus who had people following him and they witnessed many miracles and signs--BUT they still would not believe in him. Why?

John 12:39 For this reason [B]they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:

In this verse it says that they COULD NOT BELIEVE. Could not is different than would not. Could not is the inability to come to Christ--not just an unwillingness to do so. What reason is given why they COULD NOT BELEIVE?

John 12:40 “He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn—and I would heal them.”

Here we see that God "has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts" so they could not see and could not understand. They did not believe because they were blinded to the truth and were unable to come to Christ. So when Christ said all people and you believe that this means that every single individual was drawn to Christ how can this possibly be since those in 37-40 were not drawn to Christ but rather blinded to the truth and did not have the ability to come to Christ.

Billyray

06-02-2014, 05:51 PM

Think about it...did Christ do ANYTHING, (be born, live, heal the sick, even go to the bathroom) that was not something he saw the father doing?........nope!

Fair enough. I will ask you some question that will solve this--if you choose to answer them.

When the Father was born?

When did the Father die on the cross?
Alan can you answer these questions for me.

Billyray

06-02-2014, 05:53 PM

Billy, I don't think Alan holds false beliefs and I don't see him trying to twist anything.

Think about it...did Christ do ANYTHING, (be born, live, heal the sick, even go to the bathroom) that was not something he saw the father doing?........nope!

When the Father was born?

When did the Father die on the cross?
Then you will not have a hard time answering the questions that I gave to Alan to answer.

alanmolstad

06-02-2014, 05:53 PM

Alan can you answer these questions for me.

sure, see post #954

Billyray

06-02-2014, 05:55 PM

sure, see post #954

Think about it...did Christ do ANYTHING, (be born, live, heal the sick, even go to the bathroom) that was not something he saw the father doing?........nope!

Fair enough. I will ask you some question that will solve this--if you choose to answer them.

When the Father was born?

When did the Father die on the cross?
You didn't answer my questions in post #954. Will you answer these questions for me.

alanmolstad

06-02-2014, 05:59 PM

sure...see post 954....

Billyray

06-02-2014, 06:14 PM

sure...see post 954....

sure, see post #954

Think about it...did Christ do ANYTHING, (be born, live, heal the sick, even go to the bathroom) that was not something he saw the father doing?........nope!

Fair enough. I will ask you some question that will solve this--if you choose to answer them.

When the Father was born?

When did the Father die on the cross?
You didn't answer my questions in post #954. Will you answer these questions for me.

alanmolstad

06-02-2014, 07:02 PM

You didn't answer my questions in post #954. Will you answer these questions for me.sure, see post #954

Billyray

06-02-2014, 07:37 PM

Billyray

06-02-2014, 07:53 PM

This whole thing about not accepting that Christ "drawing all men" means exactly what it says and has nothing to do with Christ and the Father, somehow, being "separate persons"...which we all agree, they ARE. But, in SPIRIT they are always ONE.
It does mean exactly what it says which is either all individuals OR all people groups--both Jews and Gentiles. So the question is which one does it mean exactly. So if you would like to discuss this we need to look at the context of the surrounding verses to see what message Jesus was trying to convey.

alanmolstad

06-02-2014, 08:30 PM

You didn't answer my questions in post #954. Will you answer these questions for me.sure, see post #954

Billyray

06-02-2014, 09:30 PM

sure, see post #954
When the Father was born?

When did the Father die on the cross?

Billyray

06-02-2014, 09:37 PM

You keep telling me that my views are unknown within the church...

Think about it...did Christ do ANYTHING, (be born, live, heal the sick, even go to the bathroom) that was not something he saw the father doing?........nope!

So when was the Father born?

When did the Father die on the cross?

Gary_Biblelover

06-02-2014, 11:03 PM

That's a Good Verse Right There.

It sure is. I am going to quote it again, cuz it is so good:

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. John 12:32

Billyray

06-02-2014, 11:07 PM

It sure is. I am going to quote it again, cuz it is so good:

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. John 12:32
And what do you think that this means? Individuals OR people groups--Jews and Gentiles?

Libby

06-02-2014, 11:52 PM

So when was the Father born?

When did the Father die on the cross?

The Father wasn't born, nor did he die on the cross...but, he was right there with Jesus, in Spirit.

Do you really think Christ's drawing all men is any different from what the Father is doing? How so? I wish you would tell us more about your own beliefs and why.

Libby

06-02-2014, 11:55 PM

It does mean exactly what it says which is either all individuals OR all people groups--both Jews and Gentiles. So the question is which one does it mean exactly. So if you would like to discuss this we need to look at the context of the surrounding verses to see what message Jesus was trying to convey.

I'm going to read it in context, but before I do that, I think you are going to say it means he will draw all "groups" of people, both Gentiles, as well as Jews. Not all "individuals".

Libby

06-03-2014, 12:36 AM

Actually, I read this last night.

Libby

06-03-2014, 12:39 AM

You wanted to discuss the verse in John 12 but in order to understand what he meant by his statement you have to read the verse in context of the surrounding verse of this chapter. But first since you already noticed one important section in the surrounding verses of this chapter lets focus on that first then we can go back and discuss the context of this chapter.

You said "Many of the Jews had long since stopped truly following God". In fact the majority did not follow God because if they had they would believe in the Messiah--which is Christ--and they rejected Christ. Now let's look at verse 37 which you quoted in your post and see what it says.

Here we have Jesus who had people following him and they witnessed many miracles and signs--BUT they still would not believe in him. Why?

In this verse it says that they COULD NOT BELIEVE. Could not is different than would not. Could not is the inability to come to Christ--not just an unwillingness to do so. What reason is given why they COULD NOT BELEIVE?

Here we see that God "has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts" so they could not see and could not understand. They did not believe because they were blinded to the truth and were unable to come to Christ. So when Christ said all people and you believe that this means that every single individual was drawn to Christ how can this possibly be since those in 37-40 were not drawn to Christ but rather blinded to the truth and did not have the ability to come to Christ.

Either I didn't see this or I had forgotten about it. We need to talk about this.

I think it will have to wait, though. I'm having trouble with my eyes, tonight. Had a procedure done on them today, so I can't really read very well, at the moment.

Billyray

06-03-2014, 12:45 AM

The Father wasn't born, nor did he die on the cross...but, he was right there with Jesus, in Spirit.

Think about it...did Christ do ANYTHING, (be born, live, heal the sick, even go to the bathroom) that was not something he saw the father doing?........nope!

Alan said that Jesus SAW the Father doing these things. Therefore these events preceded Jesus doing them. When do you propose that the Father did these things?

Libby

06-03-2014, 12:48 AM

I think Alan was just trying to make a point.

Jesus DID SAY, he did nothing of himself or without seeing the Father do it first.

Billyray

06-03-2014, 02:51 AM

I think Alan was just trying to make a point.

Jesus DID SAY, he did nothing of himself or without seeing the Father do it first.

Think about it...did Christ do ANYTHING, (be born, live, heal the sick, even go to the bathroom) that was not something he saw the father doing?........nope!

So when did Jesus see the Father born? Or die on the cross?

alanmolstad

06-03-2014, 04:09 AM

see post 977 now!

alanmolstad

06-03-2014, 04:12 AM

Libby......

One of the little problems that Billy has is the tendency to get stuck and keep asking the same question over and over.

This is the reason I had to put him on my IGNORE LISTfor a long time, and felt for sure that he had learned his lesson.

But as we can see he has gotten himself suck in another loop again....

So Libby, tell you what, for the good of the forum and to show our other guests that none of us need to up with this type of disruption, I now think what is going to need to happen is that if he asks the same question one more time then you and I are going to need to talk via a private message about what action we should take to get things "fixed" again......

Billyray

06-03-2014, 09:18 AM

Libby......

One of the little problems that Billy has is the tendency to get stuck and keep asking the same question over and over.

Think about it...did Christ do ANYTHING, (be born, live, heal the sick, even go to the bathroom) that was not something he saw the father doing?........nope!

If you answer the question I wouldn't have the need to ask you over and over again. Perhaps you are unaware that you haven't answered my questions OR perhaps you simply are trying your best to avoid them. Here they are again for you.

When did Jesus see the Father be born and take on a body?

When did Jesus see the Father die on the cross?

Phoenix

06-03-2014, 11:30 AM

When did Jesus see the Father be born and take on a body?
The Bible lacks that detail. It doesn't tell us when Jesus saw that, if He did.

When did Jesus see the Father die on the cross?
The Bible lacks that detail. It doesn't tell us when Jesus saw that, if He did.

RealFakeHair

06-03-2014, 11:57 AM

The Bible lacks that detail. It doesn't tell us when Jesus saw that, if He did.

The Bible lacks that detail. It doesn't tell us when Jesus saw that, if He did.
I have seen lots of lame excuses, but

Libby

06-03-2014, 12:38 PM

Ah, now we are getting into LDS theology.

Libby

06-03-2014, 12:40 PM

So when did Jesus see the Father born? Or die on the cross?

He didn't see the Father doing those things, but the point is, the Father was there with him, at all times.

Libby

06-03-2014, 12:57 PM

Either I didn't see this or I had forgotten about it. We need to talk about this.

I think it will have to wait, though. I'm having trouble with my eyes, tonight. Had a procedure done on them today, so I can't really read very well, at the moment.

Back to John 12. Billy, I think this is a crucial part, and the part of John 12 that you believe proves your belief that God chooses certain people.

37 Even after Jesus had performed so many signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. 38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:

“Lord, who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”[h]
39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:

40 “He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn—and I would heal them.”

I haven't been able to read commentary on this, yet, but off the top of my head, I am guessing that God stopped striving with some of the worst offenders (those who simply would not believe or remain faithful). That's exactly what happened in the days of Noah...and with Babylon...and probably several other stories, I'm not remembering, at the moment.

Need to find the verses to go with that.

Billyray

06-03-2014, 03:56 PM

He didn't see the Father doing those things, but the point is, the Father was there with him, at all times.

Think about it...did Christ do ANYTHING, (be born, live, heal the sick, even go to the bathroom) that was not something he saw the father doing?........nope!

So are you finally ready to distance yourself from Alan's comment OR are you going to continue to defend his false beliefs?

Billyray

06-03-2014, 04:52 PM

Back to John 12. Billy, I think this is a crucial part, and the part of John 12 that you believe proves your belief that God chooses certain people.

I haven't been able to read commentary on this, yet, but off the top of my head, I am guessing that God stopped striving with some of the worst offenders (those who simply would not believe or remain faithful). That's exactly what happened in the days of Noah...and with Babylon...and probably several other stories, I'm not remembering, at the moment.

Need to find the verses to go with that.
In order to understand the intended meaning of a sentence or phrase you need to understand the context of discussion. We do this all of the time in everyday life--in order to understand the meaning of a sentence you need to listen to discussion on both sides of that sentence to see how it fits into what was said. So let's look at the surrounding verses and see if we can figure out the setting that this verse comes up. Let's start with John 12

Johh 12
Jesus Comes to Jerusalem as King

12 The next day the great crowd that had come for the festival heard that Jesus was on his way to Jerusalem. 13 They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting,

“Hosanna![d]”
“Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!”[e]
“Blessed is the king of Israel!”
14 Jesus found a young donkey and sat on it, as it is written:

15 “Do not be afraid, Daughter Zion;
see, your king is coming,
seated on a donkey’s colt.”[f]
16 At first his disciples did not understand all this. Only after Jesus was glorified did they realize that these things had been written about him and that these things had been done to him.

17 Now the crowd that was with him when he called Lazarus from the tomb and raised him from the dead continued to spread the word. 18 Many people, because they had heard that he had performed this sign, went out to meet him. 19 So the Pharisees said to one another, “See, this is getting us nowhere. Look how the whole world has gone after him!”

This is at the end of Jesus' public ministry and on Palm Sunday He presents Himself as the Jewish Messiah riding in on a donkey from the Mount of Olives down through the garden of gethsemane then up towards the east side of the Temple. A couple things that we see in this section of the scripture is that this is all about the Jew and their Messiah presenting himself to them and in doing so He fulfills multiple prophecies of the coming Messiah. In this chapter alone--up to this point--Jesus has raised Lazarus from the dead followed by Jesus fulfilling multiple prophecies that point to their own Messiah. Some believed--but the majority did not. Jesus up to this point was sent to the Jews as their Messiah and His message has not been sent out to the Gentiles. The Jews themselves believed that their Messiah was sent them and them alone and certainly not for the lowly Gentiles.

ESV Study Bible
John 12:20–50 The Approaching Gentiles and the Messiah’s Rejection by the Jews. The present section concludes the first major part of John’s Gospel, which narrates Jesus’ mission to the Jews. The arrival of some Greeks signals to Jesus that this mission is about to come to an end. But before Jesus can reach out to the Gentiles, he first must die (cf. 10:16; 11:52). His hour is now at hand (12:23–26; see notes on 2:4; 7:30).

alanmolstad

06-03-2014, 07:51 PM

So are you finally ready to distance yourself from Alan's comment OR are you going to continue to defend his false beliefs?Jesus gave them this answer: "Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

alanmolstad

06-03-2014, 07:53 PM

Alan said that Jesus SAW the Father doing these things. Therefore these events preceded Jesus doing them. When do you propose that the Father did these things?

see post # 954

"My view is that Jesus could do nothing by himself , as the bible tells us over and over.

That is all Im saying.

Thus when Jesus says he would draw all men to himself it means that Jesus was just doing what he was told to do by the Father.
For it is the Father who is the one who is actually drawing all men to Himself though Jesus Christ.

But to counter this, Billy has tried to slip in the idea that because Jesus was physical that this proves that the father was not drawing all men, because the father was not physical.

But, this idea of Billy's is just bad 'thinking"

Its bad thinking because when we say that God is 'drawing' all men, we dont mean "physically"

When Jesus says that he can only do what he sees the Father doing, we dont mean "Physically".......

When the Bible tells us that Jesus could do nothing unless he saw the father doing it, as in when Jesus sat down and had something to eat he did not have to actually prove that the father at some point in history was born, and got hungry, and sat down.

So Billy's argument is a bit silly....

Rather what we are talking about is the "spirit"......that is the union here between the Son and the Father....
Christ and the father are one in spirit.

They are in union of thinking......they have the same goals......they are doing the same work...

So I am not at all willing for even one moment to get sidetracked by Billy into the argument that just because the father was not flesh that this means that within union of spirit and agreement there was a separation between the father and the Son....

There was NO Separation!

Billy's argument is a big pile of FAIL....LOL

So.....to wrap it up Libby and Billy,
When Jesus tells us that he will draw all men to himself, we don't mean "physically".
If we only meant physically then it would be true that the Son was doing things that the father could not do.

Jesus could pick up his foot and look at it, that father could not do this...But this is a moot point!
It has nothing to do with the idea of drawing all men to himself, for the physical and the spirit are not like that.

For as we all know, Jesus did not actually physically pull anyone up on to the cross with him....we therefore understand that when Jesus spoke these words (about drawing all men to himself) He was talking about a spiritual drawing on all men to himself....
Not the physical drawing.

And as this is spiritual, we know that Jesus could not have done this drawing of all men to Himself without Him seeing that this is what the father is also doing....

And thus.....when we read that the Son draws all men we have the correct understanding that by this the Father is also drawing all men to Himself."

Note to Libby...
this is as point-by-point specific as I can make it for him to understand.....Unless you know of a way to force a horse to drink?....
He has my clear words on the matter...and we have both posted the scripture "Jesus gave them this answer: "Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does."

But you can't make a horse drink.....

human free will allows us to be able to make up our own minds...we are only asked to put before them the truth and then trust in God....