Quick question

[James Banta]

Can a person believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet and not believe his messages? IHS jim

Come on I need an answer.. I promise not to comment of your answers.. I just want to get some idea of what friends and "enemies" think on this subject.. IHS jim

[neverending]

Can a person believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet and not believe his messages? IHS jim

How can any person accept JS as a prophet but ignore his messages? If JS was chosen by God to restore the church, then all people should believe what JS said. Now, I am speaking of the LDS since JS was their founder and to be considered a TBM and have a temple recommend, you must agree that you accept JS. How odd that the LDS are not asked if they accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. We now know who the LDS really follow, which makes Mormonism another gospel and another cult.

[James Banta]

How can any person accept JS as a prophet but ignore his messages? If JS was chosen by God to restore the church, then all people should believe what JS said. Now, I am speaking of the LDS since JS was their founder and to be considered a TBM and have a temple recommend, you must agree that you accept JS. How odd that the LDS are not asked if they accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. We now know who the LDS really follow, which makes Mormonism another gospel and another cult.

That is it an answer from NE? How about Julie, or Billy or anyone? IHS jim

[Libby]

Can a person believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet and not believe his messages? IHS jim

Come on I need an answer.. I promise not to comment of your answers.. I just want to get some idea of what friends and "enemies" think on this subject.. IHS jim

As an ex-Mormon, I would say that one can believe that Joseph is a prophet and still not believe "all" of his message. I was taught that not everything from the mouth of a prophet is from God. Sometimes they speak their own opinions and it is not binding for the "whole church". It is simply their opinion.

[RealFakeHair]

As an ex-Mormon, I would say that one can believe that Joseph is a prophet and still not believe "all" of his message. I was taught that not everything from the mouth of a prophet is from God. Sometimes they speak their own opinions and it is not binding for the "whole church". It is simply their opinion.
The first thing a mormon should do is not be a mormon and the second thing a mormon should do is, Oops there is no second thing.

[Apologette]

Can a person believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet and not believe his messages? IHS jim

Come on I need an answer.. I promise not to comment of your answers.. I just want to get some idea of what friends and "enemies" think on this subject.. IHS jim
I once spoke to a Reorganized Mormon about that very issue - she agreed that some in her group believe that Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet - they totally reject D&C 132 for instance. Smith said so many crazy things, that I think they generally have the standard cop out ready: "That's not part of the standard works."

[Billyray]

Can a person believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet and not believe his messages?
Jim I understand the heart of your question and I think I know what you are getting at but I would have worded it slightly different as I will explain below.

If Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God would his teachings/revelations be true? Yes.

Can a person believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet and not believe his messages? Yes.

Mormons can believe whatever they want and a lot of lds believe that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were prophets of God yet they don't believe many of the things that these guys taught--particularly Brigham Young's messages (Adam God, Blood Atonement. . .). On the one hand they claim that these guys speak for God yet on the other hand they don't believe many of the things that these guys say. They try and justify this conflict by telling us that: 1. "He was speaking as a man". 2. "It is not official lds doctrine" etc. But this is a conflict in their beliefs and it should be a red flag for them.

[James Banta]

As an ex-Mormon, I would say that one can believe that Joseph is a prophet and still not believe "all" of his message. I was taught that not everything from the mouth of a prophet is from God. Sometimes they speak their own opinions and it is not binding for the "whole church". It is simply their opinion.

Again here you are posting to me... I knew you wouldn't keep your promises!!!! Because of that your opinion is worthless on this thread.. You could remove it.. Will you? That would be an act of keeping your will I don't see you doing that..

[James Banta]

Jim I understand the heart of your question and I think I know what you are getting at but I would have worded it slightly different as I will explain below.

If Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God would his teachings/revelations be true? Yes.

Can a person believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet and not believe his messages? Yes.

Mormons can believe whatever they want and a lot of lds believe that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were prophets of God yet they don't believe many of the things that these guys taught--particularly Brigham Young's messages (Adam God, Blood Atonement. . .). On the one hand they claim that these guys speak for God yet on the other hand they don't believe many of the things that these guys say. They try and justify this conflict by telling us that: 1. "He was speaking as a man". 2. "It is not official lds doctrine" etc. But this is a conflict in their beliefs and it should be a red flag for them.

I promised not to leave comments so all I will say is thanks for the input.. IHS jim

[Libby]

Again here you are posting to me... I knew you wouldn't keep your promises!!!! Because of that your opinion is worthless on this thread.. You could remove it.. Will you? That would be an act of keeping your will I don't see you doing that..

Where in the world did I ever say I wouldn't post or comment on any thread you made? I never said that, James. I said, I would not make personal comments about you on the board. Again, with your misunderstandings. Also, you are the one who is breaking a promise by not taking personal problems to email first. Good grief.

[Apologette]

As an ex-Mormon, I would say that one can believe that Joseph is a prophet and still not believe "all" of his message. I was taught that not everything from the mouth of a prophet is from God. Sometimes they speak their own opinions and it is not binding for the "whole church". It is simply their opinion.

Do you still believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God? Especially in light of his teaching that the Holy Trinity is a Three-headed Monster?

[Apologette]

Where in the world did I ever say I wouldn't post or comment on any thread you made? I never said that, James. I said, I would not make personal comments about you on the board. Again, with your misunderstandings. Also, you are the one who is breaking a promise by not taking personal problems to email first. Good grief.
You know what you do Libby - you very subtly defend Mormonism. You need to repent of your ***ociation with Mormonism (and the other cult you were part of), and ask the Lord to cleanse you in His Precious Blood. Unless you do, you will always have the lingering after effects of cultic involvement. You cannot holey give your life to serving Christ until you've renounced (and should do publicly by the way) the doctrines of demons.

[Libby]

Do you still believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God? Especially in light of his teaching that the Holy Trinity is a Three-headed Monster?

I've made it very clear (on another thread) that I do not believe JS was a prophet.

[Libby]

You know what you do Libby - you very subtly defend Mormonism. You need to repent of your ***ociation with Mormonism (and the other cult you were part of), and ask the Lord to cleanse you in His Precious Blood. Unless you do, you will always have the lingering after effects of cultic involvement. You cannot holey give your life to serving Christ until you've renounced (and should do publicly by the way) the doctrines of demons.

Telling the truth about what was taught in the church is not "defending", Apologette. James asked a simple question and asked that "anyone" respond. I gave him my answer. It doesn't mean I believe JS was actually a prophet. I don't and haven't for a very long time.

[Libby]

So, CAN someone believe that JS was a prophet and, yet, not believe everything he taught? Yes, absolutely, in part, because of what is taught about "every word out of a prophet's mouth".

That's an honest answer to James' question. I also thought Billy gave a very good response.

[RealFakeHair]

So, CAN someone believe that JS was a prophet and, yet, not believe everything he taught? Yes, absolutely, in part, because of what is taught about "every word out of a prophet's mouth".

That's an honest answer to James' question. I also thought Billy gave a very good response.

I told you should have quit while you were ahead. lol

[Libby]

I told you should have quit while you were ahead. lol

No kidding. :)

[Apologette]

Telling the truth about what was taught in the church is not "defending", Apologette. James asked a simple question and asked that "anyone" respond. I gave him my answer. It doesn't mean I believe JS was actually a prophet. I don't and haven't for a very long time.

Have you ever repented of Mormonism?

[Apologette]

So, CAN someone believe that JS was a prophet and, yet, not believe everything he taught? Yes, absolutely, in part, because of what is taught about "every word out of a prophet's mouth".

That's an honest answer to James' question. I also thought Billy gave a very good response.
The only way someone could believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet, would be if they believed he was a FALSE PROPHET. Otherwise if they believe Smith is a true prophet, they are deceived.

[The Pheonix]

Can a person believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet and not believe his messages? IHS jim

Come on I need an answer.. I promise not to comment of your answers.. I just want to get some idea of what friends and "enemies" think on this subject.. IHS jimYes some things.

[Billyray]

Yes some things.
If you believe Joseph was a true prophet of God wouldn't it be reasonable to believe what he teaches?

What parts of Joseph's message are mandatory to believe and which parts are optional in your opinion?

[The Pheonix]

Have you ever repented of Mormonism?
How does one repent. She left the Church...is their so set prayer that must be said. Besides she is not a Calvinist, so she cannot repent and join beliefs with that devil and murderer Calvin.

[Apologette]

How does one repent. She left the Church...is their so set prayer that must be said. Besides she is not a Calvinist, so she cannot repent and join beliefs with that devil and murderer Calvin.

Who are we talking about here? And by the way, I take exception to your evil words about John Calvin - have you ever called Joe Smith a "devil and and sexual pervert," for such he was? Your curses upon Christians will rebound upon you, and I would advise you to remember that.

[RealFakeHair]

How does one repent. She left the Church...is their so set prayer that must be said. Besides she is not a Calvinist, so she cannot repent and join beliefs with that devil and murderer Calvin.

You call Calvin a murderer and devil and turn a blind eye to your love of your life Joseph Smith jr.? I tell you that is pitiful!

[Apologette]

You call Calvin a murderer and devil and turn a blind eye to your love of your life Joseph Smith jr.? I tell you that is pitiful!

Was there a more evil religious charlatan on this continent than Joseph Smith? Millions who followed his evil ways now find themselves cut off from eternal life.

[RealFakeHair]

Was there a more evil religious charlatan on this continent than Joseph Smith? Millions who followed his evil ways now find themselves cut off from eternal life.

How does the brain of a TBM work? To say Calvin was a devil and murderer, and over look Joseph Smith jr. Is beyond mental.

[Apologette]

How does the brain of a TBM work? To say Calvin was a devil and murderer, and over look Joseph Smith jr. Is beyond mental.

Exactly right! And John Calvin is an easy whipping boy for Mormons. Joe Smith was obsessed with Presbyterianism because the Presbyterian minister who buried Alvin didn't mince words about the fact that Alvin never had any fruit pointing to a conversion to Christ. When Joey had his supposed "first vision," he stated that he ran home to Mommy and said that he had learned for himself that Presbyterianism was not true. Gee, wonder what motivated that?

I've never encountered any Mormon here who has cracked open a copy of Calvin's Ins***utes, or who has any idea of just how systematic his writings are. They simply mouth the words of their masters: "Calvinism is evil, God said so." That doesn't take any thinking or intellectual inquiry.

[RealFakeHair]

Exactly right! And John Calvin is an easy whipping boy for Mormons. Joe Smith was obsessed with Presbyterianism because the Presbyterian minister who buried Alvin didn't mince words about the fact that Alvin never had any fruit pointing to a conversion to Christ. When Joey had his supposed "first vision," he stated that he ran home to Mommy and said that he had learned for himself that Presbyterianism was not true. Gee, wonder what motivated that?

I've never encountered any Mormon here who has cracked open a copy of Calvin's Ins***utes, or who has any idea of just how systematic his writings are. They simply mouth the words of their masters: "Calvinism is evil, God said so." That doesn't take any thinking or intellectual inquiry.
I am not one to give advice to a TBM, but if they asked, I'd tell them not to show their ignorance and to keep quiet about Calvin.

[Apologette]

I am not one to give advice to a TBM, but if they asked, I'd tell them not to show their ignorance and to keep quiet about Calvin.

They might not accept that advice!

[Libby]

Joe Smith was obsessed with Presbyterianism because the Presbyterian minister who buried Alvin didn't mince words about the fact that Alvin never had any fruit pointing to a conversion to Christ. When Joey had his supposed "first vision," he stated that he ran home to Mommy and said that he had learned for himself that Presbyterianism was not true. Gee, wonder what motivated that?

I've never heard that story before. Do you mind if I ask where you got it?

[Gary_Biblelover]

I once spoke to a Reorganized Mormon about that very issue - she agreed that some in her group believe that Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet - they totally reject D&C 132 for instance. Smith said so many crazy things, that I think they generally have the standard cop out ready: "That's not part of the standard works."

Being born and raised RLDS I can affirm what you said. That's what our line was, deny he ever practiced polygamy, no matter what the facts stated. I am not RLDS now, I was born again and gladly and gratefully seriving Jesus.

[Libby]

That's interesting, Gary. I know some ex-mormons who went over to Community of Christ, because they still believed in the Book of Mormon, but that church doesn't have all of the baggage that mainstream LDS has, with Brigham Young and all the rest.

I have read that Emma denied Joseph's polygamy to the very end. That poor woman.

[Gary_Biblelover]

That's interesting, Gary. I know some ex-mormons who went over to Community of Christ, because they still believed in the Book of Mormon, but that church doesn't have all of the baggage that mainstream LDS has, with Brigham Young and all the rest.

I have read that Emma denied Joseph's polygamy to the very end. That poor woman.

Very true Libby. Denying the polygamy but trusting Joseph? sounds like desperation to me. And yes, I feel badly for Emma. Her father was right about Joseph. Hopefully her life with her 2nd husband was much happier.

[Libby]

Yes, I hope so, as well. If nothing else, her second marriage had to have been a much more peaceful existence. Joseph's life was full of drama and strife...mostly of his own making.

[Gary_Biblelover]

Can a person believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet and not believe his messages? IHS jim

Come on I need an answer.. I promise not to comment of your answers.. I just want to get some idea of what friends and "enemies" think on this subject.. IHS jim

Hi James. No I am certain you cannot trust smith as a prophet, nor as a man of God. Here is why. 1. If you are a prophet of God, EVERY prophecy comes to p***. This has not happened with Smith. 2. With his involvement with the Occult, how can he even be a Christian? His life indicates he was not a Christian. 3. Given his conduct towards women, it is safe to say he was a first rate womanizer, again not a characteristic of a prophet of God. 4. Any one who gives doctrine that contradicts what God has already said in the Bible is not speaking for God. God is not a man that he should lie. He did not change his mind on the method of salvation, no matter how adamantly a "prophet" may say so. This is to demean the character, person, and power of almighty God. Also as any cult, disagreeing with the nature of God, of Jesus Christ, of the doctrine long established in the Bible for salvation, this is another sign that Joseph Smith is not to be trusted in any way shape or form. Let us not forget that the Bible is the oldest of the 4 books of the LDS, and it judges the BoM, PGP, and D&C. Hope this helps.

Gary

[RealFakeHair]

Gary biblelover, quote:Hi James. No I am certain you cannot trust smith as a prophet, nor as a man of God. Here is why. 1. If you are a prophet of God, EVERY prophecy comes to p***
Try explaining this one. Matthew 24:34? Do you think He missed this one?

[Gary_Biblelover]

Gary biblelover, quote:Hi James. No I am certain you cannot trust smith as a prophet, nor as a man of God. Here is why. 1. If you are a prophet of God, EVERY prophecy comes to p***
Try explaining this one. Matthew 24:34? Do you think He missed this one?

Real, a true prophet is 100% not 99% 98% etc. This is why I said that.

[RealFakeHair]

Real, a true prophet is 100% not 99% 98% etc. This is why I said that.

How many true prophets do you know, Gary?

[Gary_Biblelover]

How many true prophets do you know, Gary?

The Bible features the work of a bunch of em :)

[RealFakeHair]

The Bible features the work of a bunch of em :)

But you have never met one before, I have never met one, but who knows I am still open minded

[alanmolstad]

you test what they say by the scriptures....

[GolfingMormon]

Can a person believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet and not believe his messages? IHS jim

Come on I need an answer.. I promise not to comment of your answers.. I just want to get some idea of what friends and "enemies" think on this subject.. IHS jim

Hard to say, there are some who believe that the Book of Mormon is true, yet have a problem believing JS was a prophet ... guess folks can believe just about anything they choose, there were those who were close to him that later stated he was no longer a prophet to God...

[Gary_Biblelover]

Here is the way we can tell, right from the lips of the almighty God himself:

Deut 18:20-22

20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken?
22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to p***, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

[GolfingMormon]

Here is the way we can tell, right from the lips of the almighty God himself:

Deut 18:20-22

20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken?
22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to p***, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

I see, and what is your take on the BOM, how did it originate in your opinion???

[Billyray]

I see, and what is your take on the BOM, how did it originate in your opinion???
A lot was plagiarized from the Bible and the rest was written by Joseph.

[GolfingMormon]

A lot was plagiarized from the Bible and the rest was written by Joseph.

What percentage of the 500 plus pages of the BOM was plagiarized from the Bible? Was JS educated enough to be able to write a book and tell such a interesting story...?

[Billyray]

What percentage of the 500 plus pages of the BOM was plagiarized from the Bible?
Here is a list of the plagiarized Isaiah p***ages.


http://ce.byu.edu/edweek/handouts/2006/20.pdf

The Writings of Isaiah in the Book of Mormon
Victor L. Ludlow
BYU Education Week 2006 BYU

Isaiah P***ages in the Book of Mormon

Of all the prophetic writings available on the Br*** Plates of Laban, Isaiah is the major resource used throughout the Book of Mormon. About one-third of Isaiah’s sixty-six chapters are found in the Book of Mormon.
Two large blocks of Isaiah chapters (2-14 and 48-54) are scattered among four books (1Nephi, 2 Nephi, Mosiah, and 3 Nephi). In addition, Isaiah 29 is quoted in 2 Nephi.

The following chart shows where these twenty-one Isaiah chapters are found in the Book of Mormon:
Isaiah 2-14 in 2 Nephi 12-24 for 13 chapters
Isaiah 29 in 2 Nephi 27 for 1 chapter
Isaiah 48-49 in 1 Nephi 20-21 for 2 chapters
Isaiah 50-51 in 2 Nephi 7-8 for 2 chapters
Isaiah 52 in 3 Nephi 20 for 1 chapter
Isaiah 53 in Mosiah 14 for 1 chapter
Isaiah 54 in 3 Nephi 22 for 1 chapter

Additional Isaiah verses, mostly from the same chapters cited in the chart above (see italics below), are
scattered throughout the Book of Mormon:

Isa 5:26* in 2 Ne 29:2 Isa 11:4 in 2 Ne 30:9
Isa 11:5-9 in 2 Ne 30:11-15 Isa 11:11a* in 2 Ne 25:17a; 29:1b; cf 25:11
Isa 22:13* in 2 Ne 28:7-8 Isa 25:12* in 2 Ne 26:15
Isa 28:10,13* in 2 Ne 28:30 Isa 29:3-4* in 2 Ne 26:15-16
Isa 29:5* in 2 Ne 26:18 Isa 29:14a* in 1 Ne 14:7a; 22:8a; 2 Ne 25:17b; 29:1a
Isa 29:15a* in 2 Ne 28:9b Isa 29:21b* in 2 Ne 28:16a
Isa 40:3* in 1 Ne 10:8 Isa 45:18* in 1 Ne 17:36
Isa 49:22* in 1 Ne 22:8; 2 Ne 6:6 Isa 49:23a* in 1 Ne 22:8b; 2 Ne 10:9a
Isa 49:23 in 2 Ne 6:7 Isa 49:24-26 in 2 Ne 6:16-18
Isa 52:1a* in Moroni 10:31a Isa 52:1-2 in 2 Ne 8:24-25
Isa 52:7* in 1 Ne 13:37; Mosiah 15:14-18 Isa 52:7-10 in Mosiah 12:21-24
Isa 52:8-10 in Mosiah 15:29-31; 3 Ne 16:18-20 Isa 52:10* in 1 Ne 22:10-11
Isa 52:12* in 3 Ne 21:29 Isa 52:13-15* in 3 Ne 21:8-10
Isa 53:8,10* in Mosiah 15:10-11 Isa 54:2b* in Moroni 10:31a
Isa 55:1* in 2 Ne 26:25 Isa 55:1-2 in 2 Ne 9:50-51
* denotes the Isaiah p***ages which are paraphrased in the Book of Mormon.

[Billyray]

Was JS educated enough to be able to write a book and tell such a interesting story...?
Sure. Also note that the Book of Mormon that we have today is not the one that was originally written. Thousands of changes have been made.

Below is a site that discusses this very issue.


http://mormonthink.com/josephweb.htm#full

Joseph's education

Joseph Smith did have limited formal education and that's often heralded as 'proof' that he could not have written the BOM. However most people do not know that Joseph's father, Joseph Smith, Sr., was a school teacher during the off season. Joseph's brother, Hyrum, worked as a school teacher during the off season also. One of his sisters may have also been a teacher at some point in her life. This wasn't a family of illiterates. Education was important to the Smith family, and although Joseph may have only had limited formal education in a typical cl***room, his parents undoubtedly schooled him at home. Also Joseph was going to high school when he was 20 years old in Harmony PA with the Stowell children.

Joseph was able to read and ponder scriptures. His parents were literate. He had access to books and newspapers. He even held a position as "exhorter" at a local church. Joseph's mother wrote that they did not neglect the education of their children.

In the early 1800s few children were able to have a full education. Most children in rural America worked on farms and often had much of their education done at home. As Joseph Smith Sr. was an actual school teacher at various times in his life, he would be quite capable of teaching general education to his children, including Joseph. Joseph's mother, Lucy Smith, would undoubtedly help as well. Even Abraham Lincoln had a very limited formal education of only about one year, and Benjamin Franklin also had only one year of formal education. Look at the amazing things they wrote and accomplished.

Even today many people home-school their children. Would anyone say that these home-schooled children are uneducated? It's true that they do not have a formal education but for the most part, home-schooled children have similar, and in some cases superior, education than traditionally-schooled children.

Religious education

Young Joseph was able to read and ponder scriptures. Joseph also attended many protestant church services and studied the Bible in depth. According to Joseph Smith's mother he told her, back before the BOM came forth that,

"I can take my Bible, and go into the woods, and learn more in two hours, than you can learn at meetings in two years, if you should go all the time." [Lucy Mack Smith, Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith, the Prophet, and His Progenitors for Many Generations (Liverpool: S. W. Richards, 1853), p. 90]

Critic's comment: If Joseph studied the Bible so well, is it any wonder that the BOM is so similar to the Bible? The LDS Gospel doctrine teachers often say that the BOM was translated from its original language into 17th century English. The English used in the 1830s certainly doesn't match the BOM language. The 'thees' and 'thous' were obviously put in to make the book sound more like The Holy Bible. One has to wonder why a document translated in the 19th century uses 17th century English.

Michael Quinn has made the best case for Joseph Smith's information environment. Joseph knew the Bible, Camp meetings, American antiquities, strategies of the war of 1812 and earlier American/Indian wars, and the strong anti-Masonic sentiments between 1826-1830 in his environment (Hyrum Smith was a Mason in NY, and belonged to a lodge). In other words, the VERY things that Joseph was most "schooled" in, he had observed from his own backyard so to speak--the VERY things that we find discussed in the Book of Mormon.

The poor grammar in the 1830 BOM shows the lack of formal education that Joseph had. However, lack of education does not mean lack of intelligence or imagination. The original grammar and the errors in the BOM is what would be expected from someone with limited formal education.
An example of Joseph's writing from before he published the Book of Mormon is in the section below 'What about Emma Smith?'.
. ."

[GolfingMormon]

Here is a list of the plagiarized Isaiah p***ages.

7% if you really wanted to know!

[GolfingMormon]

Nice little oxymoronic comparison:

Education was important to the Smith family, and although Joseph may have only had limited formal education in a typical cl***room, his parents undoubtedly schooled him at home. Also Joseph was going to high school when he was 20 years old in Harmony PA with the Stowell children.

Joseph was able to read and ponder scriptures. His parents were literate. He had access to books and newspapers. He even held a position as "exhorter" at a local church. Joseph's mother wrote that they did not neglect the education of their children.

The poor grammar in the 1830 BOM shows the lack of formal education that Joseph had.

[Billyray]

7% if you really wanted to know!
That is a lot of plagiarism going on.

[Billyray]

Nice little oxymoronic comparison:

Education was important to the Smith family, and although Joseph may have only had limited formal education in a typical cl***room, his parents undoubtedly schooled him at home. Also Joseph was going to high school when he was 20 years old in Harmony PA with the Stowell children.

Joseph was able to read and ponder scriptures. His parents were literate. He had access to books and newspapers. He even held a position as "exhorter" at a local church. Joseph's mother wrote that they did not neglect the education of their children.

The poor grammar in the 1830 BOM shows the lack of formal education that Joseph had.
A person can be educated and still have poor grammar. I think that the point they were trying to make was that a formal education would have provided a little bit more grammar than what he received at home.

BTW do you take issue with the fact that he had family members who were teachers?

[Billyray]

Was JS educated enough to be able to write a book and tell such a interesting story...?
I hear this from Mormons all of the time. I take it from your question that you believe Joseph was incapable of writing the Book of Mormon. Why do you believe this?

[Billyray]

Joseph Smith's Plagiarism of the Bible in the Book of Mormon
Jerald and Sandra Tanner


". . Was Joseph Smith Capable of Writing Such a Book?

Mormons often defend the Book of Mormon by stating that Joseph Smith lacked the education to have produced it. However, many young people have accomplished things that seem beyond their years. Alexander the Great led an army at age of eighteen, and Mozart was composing music by the age of six. In his late teens Joseph Smith showed signs of being a creative and charismatic leader as evidenced by his leadership in various money-digging schemes.


According to his mother, Lucy Mack Smith, he was a creative storyteller as well:

During our evening conversations, Joseph would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined. He would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of travelling, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings, with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life with them.9

Simply because Smith did not spend a number of years in a formal school setting does not mean that he
was uneducated. He even enrolled in school when he was twenty. Further instruction could have come from Smith’s father, who had been a school teacher and subscribed to the local newspaper.10

On the next page is a sample of Smith’s handwriting in 1832 which shows that he had been instructed in composition and penmanship.


Author Dan Vogel observed:
Certainly, Smith had less schooling than his wife, but he managed to write reasonably well. After examining several letters from the early period of Smith’s life (1831-32), historian Dale Morgan concluded that they exhibit “a flair for words, a measure of eloquence, and a sufficient degree of schooling.” William Smith [Joseph’s brother] challenged the view that his brother was “unlettered” as a “mistake,” remembering that Joseph “wrote [in] a plain intelligible hand.” Still, Smith’s talent lay not in correct orthography but, while telling a story, in his sense of narrative and ability to create memorable images.

The book Joseph dictated abounds with examples of his poor grammar and Yankee dialect as well as his penchant for digression, redundancy, and wordiness. Rarely are his characters’ inner moral conflicts reflected. Most often we encounter flat, uncomplicated, two- dimensional heroes and villains. Generally the plots are simple and frequently improbable. However, the point was not to produce a literary masterpiece, although there are occasional p***ages exhibiting the lyrical quality of romantic writers of the era as well as the rhetorical style of the area’s preachers.11

Joseph Smith’s creative imagination, years of Bible reading, attendance at various religious meetings, exposure to common ideas about the origin of the Native Americans, prepared him to write the Book of Mormon. . ."

http://www.utlm.org/booklist/digital***les/josephsmithsplagiarism_db003.htm

[GolfingMormon]

A person can be educated and still have poor grammar. I think that the point they were trying to make was that a formal education would have provided a little bit more grammar than what he received at home.

BTW do you take issue with the fact that he had family members who were teachers?

Not at all, but do you really know and have studied the many moves that the family had made and the hardships they suffered.... interesting read, are you a ex-mormon?

[Libby]

There has been speculation that the Book of Mormon was written by other than Joseph Smith or that he, at least, had collaborators. We will probably never know, for sure, but one thing is for sure, it is not an ancient document, as claimed.

[GolfingMormon]

I hear this from Mormons all of the time. I take it from your question that you believe Joseph was incapable of writing the Book of Mormon. Why do you believe this?

Hear what? that JS and the truth that he was most likely not a born writer of Books... it take years of experience and learning how to ***emble historical fact, people, wars, weapons, animals and understand geology to be able to even begin to write such a amazing book.. its much easier to ***ume that what others have claimed then to try and imagine the actual reality of sitting down and writing some 500 pages in less than 3 months...

[alanmolstad]

There has been speculation that the Book of Mormon was written by other than Joseph Smith or that he, at least, had collaborators. We will probably never know, for sure, but one thing is for sure, it is not an ancient document, as claimed.
the truth be told......I think all Mormons are a bit nuts to believe squat from old joe Smith.....

[GolfingMormon]

Joseph Smith's Plagiarism of the Bible in the Book of Mormon
Jerald and Sandra Tanner


". . Was Joseph Smith Capable of Writing Such a Book?

Mormons often defend the Book of Mormon by stating that Joseph Smith lacked the education to have produced it. However, many young people have accomplished things that seem beyond their years. Alexander the Great led an army at age of eighteen, and Mozart was composing music by the age of six. In his late teens Joseph Smith showed signs of being a creative and charismatic leader as evidenced by his leadership in various money-digging schemes.

Simply because Smith did not spend a number of years in a formal school setting does not mean that he
was uneducated. He even enrolled in school when he was twenty. Further instruction could have come from Smith’s father, who had been a school teacher and subscribed to the local newspaper.10

On the next page is a sample of Smith’s handwriting in 1832 which shows that he had been instructed in composition and penmanship.

Joseph Smith’s creative imagination, years of Bible reading, attendance at various religious meetings, exposure to common ideas about the origin of the Native Americans, prepared him to write the Book of Mormon. . ."

http://www.utlm.org/booklist/digital***les/josephsmithsplagiarism_db003.htm

Did you know that the Tanners still believed in reading the Book of Mormon even after they left the Church and joined in with the orthodox Christians??? look it up, its true ... now I wonder why that was..

[GolfingMormon]

There has been speculation that the Book of Mormon was written by other than Joseph Smith or that he, at least, had collaborators. We will probably never know, for sure, but one thing is for sure, it is not an ancient document, as claimed.

Speculation is rampant, yet we have so many different tells of how it came to be... nobody yet has figured it out, the day they prove it as fiction will be the day that the Church will start loosing members..

[GolfingMormon]

the truth be told......I think all Mormons are a bit nuts to believe squat from old joe Smith.....

Now isn't that divisive language ... nuts and squat instead of asking ... hey mormon, why do you believe the Book of Mormon is true? civil and polite...

[Libby]

Did you know that the Tanners still believed in reading the Book of Mormon even after they left the Church and joined in with the orthodox Christians??? look it up, its true ... now I wonder why that was..

Sandra mentioned that in her latest interview with John Dehlin. For starters, they first went to the RLDS, where the Book of Mormon was still considered scripture. The book is much more in line with the Bible, than the rest of the LDS works. They continued using the Book of Mormon, for awhile, even after they switched to mainstream. Sandra said, because it taught "One God"..so what's the problem? The problem mainly was that they hadn't run into a Pastor or anyone that could explain to them why they should drop the Book of Mormon. These people didn't know about all of the problems with the book (probably had never seen it or read it).

[GolfingMormon]

That is a lot of plagiarism going on.

Did you know that the NT quoted from the OT and never gave credits .... at least JS in translating the scriptures from the Bible noted the authors... giving true credit where it was due ... how would that be plagiarizing????

[GolfingMormon]

Sandra mentioned that in her latest interview with John Dehlin. For starters, they first went to the RLDS, where the Book of Mormon was still considered scripture. The book is much more in line with the Bible, than the rest of the LDS works. They continued using the Book of Mormon, for awhile, even after they switched to mainstream. Sandra said, because it taught "One God"..so what's the problem? The problem mainly was that they hadn't run into a Pastor or anyone that could explain to them why they should drop the Book of Mormon. These people didn't know about all of the problems with the book (probably had never seen it or read it).

Can you quote exactly what she said?

[Libby]

Speculation is rampant, yet we have so many different tells of how it came to be... nobody yet has figured it out, the day they prove it as fiction will be the day that the Church will start loosing members..

No offense, but that day has come. Even one of your Elders has said that people are leaving the church in droves, unlike anything they have seen, since the Kirtland era.

I think, anyone who reads the Book of Mormon, objectively, can clearly see that it is a work from the 19th century. There are tons of clues. Plus, there is no proof of any of the ancient civilizations mentioned in the book.

[alanmolstad]

Speculation is rampant, yet we have so many different tells of how it came to be... nobody yet has figured it out, the day they prove it as fiction will be the day that the Church will start loosing members..well........I doubt it.

i do not think that Mormonism was founded on the idea that the Book of Mormon had to be true....
in fact.....I remember hearing one time that a professor at BYU once was said to teach that even if none of the claims about Jesus coming to America nor the Jews made in Mormonism turn out to be true, it would not really matter, ......I think his point was that the over-all good that Mormons do justifies the Mormon church, even if Joe Smiths claims turn out to be all false,

[GolfingMormon]

No offense, but that day has come. Even one of your Elders has said that people are leaving the church in droves, unlike anything they have seen, since the Kirtland era.

I think, anyone who reads the Book of Mormon, objectively, can clearly see that it is a work from the 19th century. There are tons of clues. Plus, there is no proof of any of the ancient civilizations mentioned in the book.

Can you state why the are leaving? is it for the Book of Mormon, JS, doctrine, to hard to live, ***hing, long Sunday Meetings, callings, etc, etc...

[Billyray]

Joseph Smith's Plagiarism of the Bible in the Book of Mormon
Jerald and Sandra Tanner


". . Was Joseph Smith Capable of Writing Such a Book?

Mormons often defend the Book of Mormon by stating that Joseph Smith lacked the education to have produced it. However, many young people have accomplished things that seem beyond their years. Alexander the Great led an army at age of eighteen, and Mozart was composing music by the age of six. In his late teens Joseph Smith showed signs of being a creative and charismatic leader as evidenced by his leadership in various money-digging schemes.


According to his mother, Lucy Mack Smith, he was a creative storyteller as well:

During our evening conversations, Joseph would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined. He would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of travelling, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings, with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life with them.9

Simply because Smith did not spend a number of years in a formal school setting does not mean that he
was uneducated. He even enrolled in school when he was twenty. Further instruction could have come from Smith’s father, who had been a school teacher and subscribed to the local newspaper.10

On the next page is a sample of Smith’s handwriting in 1832 which shows that he had been instructed in composition and penmanship.


Author Dan Vogel observed:
Certainly, Smith had less schooling than his wife, but he managed to write reasonably well. After examining several letters from the early period of Smith’s life (1831-32), historian Dale Morgan concluded that they exhibit “a flair for words, a measure of eloquence, and a sufficient degree of schooling.” William Smith [Joseph’s brother] challenged the view that his brother was “unlettered” as a “mistake,” remembering that Joseph “wrote [in] a plain intelligible hand.” Still, Smith’s talent lay not in correct orthography but, while telling a story, in his sense of narrative and ability to create memorable images.

The book Joseph dictated abounds with examples of his poor grammar and Yankee dialect as well as his penchant for digression, redundancy, and wordiness. Rarely are his characters’ inner moral conflicts reflected. Most often we encounter flat, uncomplicated, two- dimensional heroes and villains. Generally the plots are simple and frequently improbable. However, the point was not to produce a literary masterpiece, although there are occasional p***ages exhibiting the lyrical quality of romantic writers of the era as well as the rhetorical style of the area’s preachers.11

Joseph Smith’s creative imagination, years of Bible reading, attendance at various religious meetings, exposure to common ideas about the origin of the Native Americans, prepared him to write the Book of Mormon. . ."

http://www.utlm.org/booklist/digital***les/josephsmithsplagiarism_db003.htm


Did you know that the Tanners still believed in reading the Book of Mormon even after they left the Church and joined in with the orthodox Christians??? look it up, its true ... now I wonder why that was..
Any comment on the content of the post or would you rather p***?

[alanmolstad]

Now isn't that divisive language ... nuts and squat instead of asking ... hey mormon, why do you believe the Book of Mormon is true? civil and polite...

No...Mormonism is a joke......
Mormonism today seems overly concerned with allowing their leader Smith to chase skirts..

[GolfingMormon]

well........I doubt it.

i do not think that Mormonism was founded on the idea that the Book of Mormon had to be true....
in fact.....I remember hearing one time that a professor at BYU once was said to teach that even if none of the claims about Jesus coming to America nor the Jews made in Mormonism turn out to be true, it would not really matter, ......I think his point was that the over-all good that Mormons do justifies the Mormon church, even if Joe Smiths claims turn out to be all false,

I doubt it also, the Book of Mormon is true, of course that my personal conviction...

[GolfingMormon]

No...Mormonism is a joke......
Mormonism today seems overly concerned with allowing their leader Smith to chase skirts..

Okay, I will give you one more opportunity to converse, if not you will be the deciding factor whether or not I put you on ignore... choose

[alanmolstad]

You see this in other CULTS that make a big prediction that the world will end on a date.....well when the date comes and nothing happens and everyone understands clearly that the whole date setting thing was a bunch of ****, you would think that this would be the proof that people would need to drop out of the CULT....but thats not what happens many times.

many times (Like with the JW's) when a prediction is shown to be false, it just makes members of the CULT turn to the CULT even more for guidance.....

That is why I think that if one day there came forth 100% proof the Smith just invented the whole book of Mormon just to earn a few extra bucks and cheat on his wife, it would not really mean much to most Mormons.......

[Billyray]

Can you state why the are leaving? is it for the Book of Mormon, JS, doctrine, to hard to live, ***hing, long Sunday Meetings, callings, etc, etc...
For me it was a combination of several things but ultimately it was the fact that Mormonism doesn't line up with Biblical Christianity.

[alanmolstad]

I think it was back in the 90s and there was this one person who claimed to be from a different star system...
This person had a bunch of followers, and told them that on a date they all would be "beamed" to a star ship....

The date came and went...and while you would think this would wake people up to understand their leader was a total fake, it really did not cause any members to drop out of the CULT at all....

people that are so invested in something like a CULT will find ways to keep believing no matter what.....They will find a way to justify anything.......

[Billyray]

I doubt it also, the Book of Mormon is true, of course that my personal conviction...
I am sure you believe that the Book of Mormon is true or you would not likely remain Mormon (I say "not likely" because there are some LDS who don't believe that Book of Mormon is true and they remain Mormon--mostly for social reasons).

BTW other than your spiritual witness as outlined in Moroni 10:3-5 what are some of the more convincing reasons why you believe that the Book of Mormon is true?

[alanmolstad]

People become invested in a CULT....

To them its not a matter of what is true or not about their teachings...its more about how the CULT has changed them, and helped them.....

This is why its rather moot to try to show a member of a CULT that its a false god they are worshiping....because to them its family...and you stick with your family regardless of the trouble...

[Libby]

That is true for many.....but, not all.

I wouldn't say people are not interested in the truth, though. They just believe they already have it.

[GolfingMormon]

alanmolstad;158698]You see this in other CULTS that make a big prediction that the world will end on a date.....well when the date comes and nothing happens and everyone understands clearly that the whole date setting thing was a bunch of ****, you would think that this would be the proof that people would need to drop out of the CULT....but thats not what happens many times.

many times (Like with the JW's) when a prediction is shown to be false, it just makes members of the CULT turn to the CULT even more for guidance.....

That is why I think that if one day there came forth 100% proof the Smith just invented the whole book of Mormon just to earn a few extra bucks and cheat on his wife, it would not really mean much to most Mormons......





Noted...

[GolfingMormon]

[QUOTE=Billyray;158701]

BTW other than your spiritual witness as outlined in Moroni 10:3-5 what are some of the more convincing reasons why you believe that the Book of Mormon is true?



I was a orthodox Christian, I read the BOM and payed more attention to the story and message than the anti critics talking points... why get muddled down in speculation, if you guys can come up with the silver bullet of death, then please do so....

[GolfingMormon]

Any comment on the content of the post or would you rather p***?

Jerald and Sandra Tanner are nice folks ... I understand that Jerald p***ed away not too long ago, I imagine he is now where he can get the final say on the truth or fiction of Mormonism... as for the content, well we must consider the source .... if they are right then one would believe that a very young man, who was family schooled, had poor communication skills wrote the Book of Mormon which has successfully help grow our membership to over 17 million now...

[GolfingMormon]

People become invested in a CULT....

To them its not a matter of what is true or not about their teachings...its more about how the CULT has changed them, and helped them.....

This is why its rather moot to try to show a member of a CULT that its a false god they are worshiping....because to them its family...and you stick with your family regardless of the trouble...

Most of them have also read the Book of Mormon cover to cover which is more than most Forum Poster can say, yet they can criticize it as if they are experts ... easier to copy and past talking points then doing the research yourself...

[GolfingMormon]

That is true for many.....but, not all.

I wouldn't say people are not interested in the truth, though. They just believe they already have it.

I disagree ....

[Billyray]

.... if they are right then one would believe that a very young man, who was family schooled, had poor communication skills wrote the Book of Mormon which has successfully help grow our membership to over 17 million now...
Do you believe that Joseph was incapable of writing the Book of Mormon and if so why?

[Billyray]

I was a orthodox Christian, I read the BOM and payed more attention to the story and message than the anti critics talking points... why get muddled down in speculation, if you guys can come up with the silver bullet of death, then please do so....
Other than your spiritual witness what reasons do you have to believe that it is a true historical account?

[Libby]

I disagree ....

You disagree that most LDS are interested in the truth? They are not interested, you are saying?

[GolfingMormon]

For me it was a combination of several things but ultimately it was the fact that Mormonism doesn't line up with Biblical Christianity.

Yep you're right ... it doesn't ... but it (LDS) does line up with the Saints of the NT and their doctrine as given to them by Christ...

[GolfingMormon]

Do you believe that Joseph was incapable of writing the Book of Mormon and if so why?

No, this Book could only have come from several different authors and I don't think JS was capable of changing his style of writing to meet the demands of making himself write as if he was several different people...

[Phoenix]

..this Book could only have come from several different authors and I don't think JS was capable of changing his style of writing to meet the demands of making himself write as if he was several different people...

I agree. It's more likely that the Book of Mormon is what it claims to be, then that Smith wrote it himself.

[GolfingMormon]

Other than your spiritual witness what reasons do you have to believe that it is a true historical account?

Well besides the personal revelation I received there are the many witnesses, 11 others besides JS... a historical account also, have you ever read Lehi’sTrail
From the Valley of Lemuel to Nephi’s Harbor or Lehi in the Wilderness. Interesting read. There are other numerous bits and pieces of evidence that all add up to something here is going on and just may be of great worth to all of mankind...

[GolfingMormon]

You disagree that most LDS are interested in the truth? They are not interested, you are saying?

Libby, maybe I misunderstood you... I think many and I mean many of those who claim they already have it fought for it by applying themselves to receiving light and knowledge from God.

[Billyray]

Well besides the personal revelation I received there are the many witnesses, 11 others besides JS... a historical account also, have you ever read Lehi’sTrail
From the Valley of Lemuel to Nephi’s Harbor or Lehi in the Wilderness. Interesting read. There are other numerous bits and pieces of evidence that all add up to something here is going on and just may be of great worth to all of mankind...
I have heard about Lehi's trail. Would you say that this is the best evidence for the Book of Mormon? Is there any other evidence that you think supports that the Nephites and Lamanites were real people groups that lived in the Americas?

[GolfingMormon]

I have heard about Lehi's trail. Would you say that this is the best evidence for the Book of Mormon? Is there any other evidence that you think supports that the Nephites and Lamanites were real people groups that lived in the Americas?

Take a trip to Mesoamerica, the land is filled pack full of unresolved history...

[RealFakeHair]

Take a trip to Mesoamerica, the land is filled pack full of unresolved history...

Notice, GM, doesn't say, "full of mormon history." Why, because there is none! Just more LDSinc. Double type

[Billyray]

Take a trip to Mesoamerica, the land is filled pack full of unresolved history...
I think from your answers it is obvious that you don't have any evidence for the Nepthites or the Lamanites ever living in the Americas. Some Mormons are bothered by this and they end up leaving the church--other LDS don't seem to be phased by this at all because when it comes down to it the whole reason for their belief is a subjective spiritual witness that trumps everything else. Let me ask you--why do you think that there is so much evidence to support the Bible but the Book of Mormon there isn't any evidence for it?

[RealFakeHair]

I think from your answers it is obvious that you don't have any evidence for the Nepthites or the Lamanites ever living in the Americas. Some Mormons are bothered by this and they end up leaving the church--other LDS don't seem to be phased by this at all because when it comes down to it the whole reason for their belief is a subjective spiritual witness that trumps everything else. Let me ask you--why do you think that there is so much evidence to support the Bible but the Book of Mormon there isn't any evidence for it?

Hold your breath on getting a straight answer. GM is just one more ****hard of hot LDSinc. Air, without a sense of humor no less.

[Billyray]

No, this Book could only have come from several different authors and I don't think JS was capable of changing his style of writing to meet the demands of making himself write as if he was several different people...
Joseph plagiarized many different authors from the Bible alone--each having a different writing style.

[Billyray]

I see, and what is your take on the BOM, how did it originate in your opinion???

A lot was plagiarized from the Bible and the rest was written by Joseph.

What percentage of the 500 plus pages of the BOM was plagiarized from the Bible? Was JS educated enough to be able to write a book and tell such a interesting story...?


Here is a list of the plagiarized Isaiah p***ages.


http://ce.byu.edu/edweek/handouts/2006/20.pdf

The Writings of Isaiah in the Book of Mormon
Victor L. Ludlow
BYU Education Week 2006 BYU

Isaiah P***ages in the Book of Mormon

Of all the prophetic writings available on the Br*** Plates of Laban, Isaiah is the major resource used throughout the Book of Mormon. About one-third of Isaiah’s sixty-six chapters are found in the Book of Mormon.
Two large blocks of Isaiah chapters (2-14 and 48-54) are scattered among four books (1Nephi, 2 Nephi, Mosiah, and 3 Nephi). In addition, Isaiah 29 is quoted in 2 Nephi.

The following chart shows where these twenty-one Isaiah chapters are found in the Book of Mormon:
Isaiah 2-14 in 2 Nephi 12-24 for 13 chapters
Isaiah 29 in 2 Nephi 27 for 1 chapter
Isaiah 48-49 in 1 Nephi 20-21 for 2 chapters
Isaiah 50-51 in 2 Nephi 7-8 for 2 chapters
Isaiah 52 in 3 Nephi 20 for 1 chapter
Isaiah 53 in Mosiah 14 for 1 chapter
Isaiah 54 in 3 Nephi 22 for 1 chapter

Additional Isaiah verses, mostly from the same chapters cited in the chart above (see italics below), are
scattered throughout the Book of Mormon:

Isa 5:26* in 2 Ne 29:2 Isa 11:4 in 2 Ne 30:9
Isa 11:5-9 in 2 Ne 30:11-15 Isa 11:11a* in 2 Ne 25:17a; 29:1b; cf 25:11
Isa 22:13* in 2 Ne 28:7-8 Isa 25:12* in 2 Ne 26:15
Isa 28:10,13* in 2 Ne 28:30 Isa 29:3-4* in 2 Ne 26:15-16
Isa 29:5* in 2 Ne 26:18 Isa 29:14a* in 1 Ne 14:7a; 22:8a; 2 Ne 25:17b; 29:1a
Isa 29:15a* in 2 Ne 28:9b Isa 29:21b* in 2 Ne 28:16a
Isa 40:3* in 1 Ne 10:8 Isa 45:18* in 1 Ne 17:36
Isa 49:22* in 1 Ne 22:8; 2 Ne 6:6 Isa 49:23a* in 1 Ne 22:8b; 2 Ne 10:9a
Isa 49:23 in 2 Ne 6:7 Isa 49:24-26 in 2 Ne 6:16-18
Isa 52:1a* in Moroni 10:31a Isa 52:1-2 in 2 Ne 8:24-25
Isa 52:7* in 1 Ne 13:37; Mosiah 15:14-18 Isa 52:7-10 in Mosiah 12:21-24
Isa 52:8-10 in Mosiah 15:29-31; 3 Ne 16:18-20 Isa 52:10* in 1 Ne 22:10-11
Isa 52:12* in 3 Ne 21:29 Isa 52:13-15* in 3 Ne 21:8-10
Isa 53:8,10* in Mosiah 15:10-11 Isa 54:2b* in Moroni 10:31a
Isa 55:1* in 2 Ne 26:25 Isa 55:1-2 in 2 Ne 9:50-51
* denotes the Isaiah p***ages which are paraphrased in the Book of Mormon.


7% if you really wanted to know!

That is a lot of plagiarism going on.

I have looked into this a little bit more. I don't have an exact percentage but 7% is too low. Care to dig a bit deeper?

[Libby]

FromWikipedia:

"The Book of Mormon explicitly quotes the prophet Isaiah. It contains 19 chapters of the King James translation of Isaiah in their entirety, along with parts of a few other chapters.[9] Approximately 30% of Isaiah is found in the Book of Mormon. One source counts 478 verses in the Book of Mormon which are quoted in some form or other from the book of Isaiah."

This gives both sides on the issue:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Mormon_and_the_King_James_Bible

[Billyray]

FromWikipedia:

"The Book of Mormon explicitly quotes the prophet Isaiah. It contains 19 chapters of the King James translation of Isaiah in their entirety, along with parts of a few other chapters.[9] Approximately 30% of Isaiah is found in the Book of Mormon. One source counts 478 verses in the Book of Mormon which are quoted in some form or other from the book of Isaiah."

This gives both sides on the issue:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Mormon_and_the_King_James_Bible
Looking at Sandra Tanner's book "Joseph Smith’s Plagiarism of the Bible" the plagiarism is widespread throughout the Book of Mormon and not just the Isaiah p***ages.

[Libby]

Looking at Sandra Tanner's book "Joseph Smith’s Plagiarism of the Bible" the plagiarism is widespread throughout the Book of Mormon and not just the Isaiah p***ages.

Yes, exactly. This site does mention that. So, I agree with you, it is much more than 7%.

[Libby]

Also, worth mentioning, is that even the textual "mistakes" from the KJV are also in the Book of Mormon. How in the world did mistakes made in the 1600's show up in writings that are supposedly more than 2000 years old?

There are multiple problems with the Book of Mormon, that should all raise red flags.

[Billyray]

Also, worth mentioning, is that even the textual "mistakes" from the KJV are also in the Book of Mormon. How in the world did mistakes made in the 1600's show up in writings that are supposedly more than 2000 years old?

There are multiple problems with the Book of Mormon, that should all raise red flags.
Another interesting issue is why are there changes in Isaiah in the JST when comparing them to the chapters of Isaiah in the Book of Mormon? LDS claim that the scriptures were pure up to the time of the Apostles and were corrupted after this point. The source for the Isaiah p***ages in the Book of Mormon predate the Apostles by at least 600 years so this copy should be pure. Which brings up another issue--if the source for the Isaiah p***ages in the Book of Mormon is pure then it should be different than what we have in the KJV.

[Libby]

Yes, exactly.

Many big problems with accepting the BofM as an ancient text.

[Phoenix]

Joseph plagiarized many different authors from the Bible alone--each having a different writing style.

Can you name these "many different Bible authors" you are talking about?

[Billyray]

Can you name these "many different Bible authors" you are talking about?
Isaiah, Paul, and short phrases from multiple NT authors.

[Billyray]

Here is an example of a single chapter in the Book of Mormon of short phrases that have been lifted from the KJV Bible. This is found in chapter after chapter of the Book of Mormon. This would certainly explain different writing styles because small phrases have been taken from multiple authors.



Joseph smith’s plagiarism of the BiBle in the Book of mormon
by Jerald and Sandra Tanner
pages 48-49

1 Nephi 10

KJV: Saviour of the world (John 4:42)
BM: Savior of the world (1 Nephi 10:4)

KJV: crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight (Matt. 3:3)
BM: cry in the wilderness: Prepare ye the way of the Lord, and make his paths straight (1 Nephi 10:8)

KJV: there standeth one among you, whom ye know not (John 1:26)
BM: there standeth one among you whom ye know not (1 Nephi 10:8)

KJV: mightier than I (Luke 3:16)
BM: mightier than I (1 Nephi 10:8)

KJV: whose shoe’s latchet I am not worthy to unloose (John 1:27)
BM: whose shoe’s latchet I am not worthy to unloose (1 Nephi 10:8)

KJV: in Bethabara, beyond Jordan (John 1:28)
BM: in Bethabara, beyond Jordan (1 Nephi 10:9)

KJV: baptize with water (John 1:26)
BM: baptize with water (1 Nephi 10:9)

KJV: the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world (John 1:29)
BM: the Lamb of God, who should take away the sins of the world (1 Nephi 10:10)

KJV: he must rise again from the dead (John 20:9)
BM: he should rise from the dead (1 Nephi 10:11)

KJV: the Holy Ghost (Matt. 1:18)
BM: the Holy Ghost (1 Nephi 10:11)

KJV: the word of the Lord, that we (1 Thess. 4:15)
BM: the word of the Lord, that we (1 Nephi 10:13)

KJV: the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree (Rom. 11:24)
BM: the natural branches of the olive tree . . . should be grafted in (1 Nephi 10:14)

KJV: the power of the Holy Ghost (Rom. 15:13)
BM: the power of the Holy Ghost (1 Nephi 10:17)

KJV: faith of the Son of God (Gal. 2:20)
BM: faith on the Son of God (1 Nephi 10:17)

KJV: them that diligently seek him (Heb. 11:6)
BM: those who diligently seek him (1 Nephi 10:17)

KJV: the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever (Heb. 13:8)
BM: the same yesterday, to day, and forever (1 Nephi 10:18)

KJV: prepared for you from the foundation of the world (Matt. 25:34)
BM: prepared for all men from the foundation of the world (1 Nephi 10:18)

KJV: the power of the Holy Ghost (Rom. 15:13)
BM: the power of the Holy Ghost (1 Nephi 10:19)

[Billyray]

Here is an example from from a different book in the Book of Mormon--Alma 5. BTW this is an excellent book put out by Sandra Tanner and she has it in digital format--PDF--so you can put it on your computer or iPad and search any word and it finds it for you in a matter of seconds.
Here is the link for anyone interested.
http://www.utlm.org/booklist/digitalbooks.htm


Note--when looking at these two examples this is typical of chapter after chapter in the Book of Mormon--theses are not isolated chapters that I am showing you.




Joseph smith’s plagiarism of the BiBle in the Book of mormon
by Jerald and Sandra Tanner
pages 83-85


Alma 5

KJV: power and authority (Luke 9:1)
BM: power and authority (Alma 5:3)

KJV: yea, I say unto you (Matt. 11:9)
BM: yea, I say unto you (Alma 5:5)

KJV: in remembrance that (2 Tim. 1:6)
BM: in remembrance that (Alma 5:6)

KJV: were illuminated (Heb. 10:32)
BM: were illuminated (Alma 5:7)

KJV: everlasting destruction (2 Thess. 1:9)
BM: everlasting destruction (Alma 5:7)

KJV: And I say unto you that (Matt. 8:11)
BM: And I say unto you that (Alma 5:9)

KJV: he preached the word unto (Mark 2:2)
BM: he preached the word unto (Alma 5:13)

KJV: born of God (1 John 3:9)
BM: born of God (Alma 5:14)

KJV: raised in incorruption (1 Cor. 15:42)
BM: raised in incorruption (Alma 5:15)

KJV: stand before God (Rev. 20:12)
BM: stand before God (Alma 5:15)

KJV: be judged according to (1 Peter 4:6)
BM: be judged according to (Alma 5:15)

KJV: mortal body (Rom. 6:12)
BM: mortal body (Alma 5:15)

KJV: works of righteousness (***us 3:5)
BM: works of righteousness (Alma 5:16)

KJV: with a pure heart (1 Peter 1:22)
BM: with a pure heart (Alma 5:19)

KJV: to the devil (Eph. 4:27)
BM: to the devil (Alma 5:20)

KJV: ye cannot be saved (Acts 27:31)
BM: ye cannot be saved (Alma 5:21)

KJV: his people from their sins (Matt. 1:21)
BM: his people from their sins (Alma 5:21)

KJV: guilty of all (James 2:10)
BM: guilty of all (Alma 5:23)

KJV: sit down in the kingdom of God (Luke 13:29)
BM: sit down in the kingdom of God (Alma 5:24)

KJV: pure and white (Rev. 15:6)
BM: pure and white (Alma 5:24)

KJV: he is a liar (John 8:44)
BM: he is a liar (Alma 5:25)

KJV: in the kingdom of heaven (Matt. 18:4)
BM: in the kingdom of heaven (Alma 5:25)

KJV: the children of the kingdom (Matt. 8:12)
BM: the children of the kingdom (Alma 5:25)

KJV: sing the song of (Rev. 15:3)
BM: sing the song of (Alma 5:26)

KJV: through the blood of (Col. 1:20)
BM: through the blood of (Alma 5:27)

KJV: his people from their sins (Matt. 1:21)
BM: his people from their sins (Alma 5:27)

KJV: for the kingdom of heaven is (Matt. 3:2)
BM: for the kingdom of heaven is (Alma 5:28)

KJV: one among you (John 1:26)
BM: one among you (Alma 5:29)

KJV: for the hour is (John 5:28)
BM: for the hour is (Alma 5:29)

KJV: the time shall come (John 16:4)
BM: the time shall come (Alma 5:29)

KJV: And again I say unto you (Matt. 19:24)
BM: And again I say unto you (Alma 5:30)

KJV: and I will receive you (2 Cor. 6:17)
BM: and I will receive you (Alma 5:33)

KJV: works of righteousness (***us 3:5)
BM: works of righteousness (Alma 5:35)

KJV: hewn down, and cast into the fire (Matt. 3:10)
BM: hewn down and cast into the fire (Alma 5:35)

KJV: are puffed up (1 Cor. 5:2)
BM: are puffed up (Alma 5:37)

KJV: things of the world (1 Cor. 1:27)
BM: things of the world (Alma 5:37)

KJV: as sheep having no shepherd (Matt. 9:36)
BM: as sheep having no shepherd (Alma 5:37)

KJV: the good shepherd (John 10:11)
BM: the good shepherd (Alma 5:38)

KJV: in his own name (John 5:43)
BM: in his own name (Alma 5:38)

KJV: the name of Christ (1 Peter 4:14)
BM: the name of Christ (Alma 5:38)

KJV: Whosoever denieth (1 John 2:23)
BM: whosoever denieth (Alma 5:39)

KJV: child of the devil (Acts 13:10)
BM: child of the devil (Alma 5:39)

KJV: cometh from God (John 5:44)
BM: cometh from God (Alma 5:40)

KJV: bringeth forth good (Matt. 12:35)
BM: bringeth forth good (Alma 5:41)

KJV: bringeth forth evil (Matt. 12:35)
BM: bringeth forth evil (Alma 5:41)

KJV: unto all good works (2 Tim. 3:17)
BM: unto all good works (Alma 5:42)

KJV: of God, which is in Christ Jesus (Rom. 8:39)
BM: of God, which is in Christ Jesus (Alma 5:44)

KJV: testify unto you (Rev. 22:16)
BM: testify unto you (Alma 5:45)

KJV: the Holy Spirit of God (Eph. 4:30)
BM: the Holy Spirit of God (Alma 5:46)

KJV: written in the book of life (Rev. 13:8)
BM: written in the book of life (Alma 5:58)

KJV: will I grant (Rev. 3:21)
BM: will I grant (Alma 5:58)

KJV: For the word of God (Heb. 4:12)
BM: for the word of God (Alma 5:58)

KJV: of him who hath (Rom. 8:20)
BM: of him who hath (Alma 5:61)

[Libby]

Thanks for the link, Billy!

From "Joseph Smith's Plagiarism of the Bible in the Book of Mormon"

While we believed that God could give the same
concepts to two different groups of people, we still
struggled with the idea that both texts would use almost
exactly the same words. It would be nearly impossible
for two different translators to independently come up
with the same English wording even if they worked from
the same text. The problem with the Book of Mormon
is much more complex. The Bible was translated from
both Hebrew and Greek m****cripts, and the Book
of Mormon was supposed to have been translated
from “reformed Egyptian.” That the words from the
“reformed Egyptian” language would come out so close
to those translated from the Hebrew and Greek language
seemed almost impossible to explain. This problem
and many others of a similar nature led us into a very
exhaustive study of the Book of Mormon.


When we began our research, we sincerely wanted
to prove it true and to silence the critics. The Book of
Mormon itself admonished us to “ask God, the Eternal
Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true;
and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent,
having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it
unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost” (Moroni
10:4). We, therefore, spent a great deal of time praying
for God’s direction in the matter, but he did not “manifest
the truth of it” to us. In fact, the more we looked into the
matter, the more evidence we found against the book’s
authenticity. God seemed to be telling us something we
did not want to hear, and we found it extremely painful
to face the facts which we encountered. As it turned
out, however, we found a peace and joy in biblical
Christianity that is far greater than anything we sacrificed
in giving up the Book of Mormon.

[Phoenix]

From "Joseph Smith's Plagiarism of the Bible in the Book of Mormon"

While we believed that God could give the same
concepts to two different groups of people, we still
struggled with the idea that both texts would use almost
exactly the same words. It would be nearly impossible
for two different translators to independently come up
with the same English wording even if they worked from
the same text.

That reasoning brands the Bible a plagiarized fraud, so are you sure you want to trust the people who use that reasoning?

There are NT p***ages that are translated to be almost identical to OT p***ages. And don't forget that the OT was originally in Hebrew, and the NT in Greek. According to your trusted source, that is evidence that someone in NT times plagiarized the OT p***ages.

[Billyray]

That reasoning brands the Bible a plagiarized fraud, so are you sure you want to trust the people who use that reasoning?

There are NT p***ages that are translated to be almost identical to OT p***ages. And don't forget that the OT was originally in Hebrew, and the NT in Greek. According to your trusted source, that is evidence that someone in NT times plagiarized the OT p***ages.
There are lots of p***ages that are quoted from the OT. This is something entirely different than what we are talking about here

[Libby]

That reasoning brands the Bible a plagiarized fraud, so are you sure you want to trust the people who use that reasoning?

There are NT p***ages that are translated to be almost identical to OT p***ages. And don't forget that the OT was originally in Hebrew, and the NT in Greek. According to your trusted source, that is evidence that someone in NT times plagiarized the OT p***ages.

Yeah, I have to agree with Billy that quoting from the O.T. and using similar wording (especially as it is translated into English) is something quite different.

The Book of Mormon was, supposedly, a whole different group of people than any of those in the Bible. You might expect the messages to be similar, but not word for word and not in KJ English, with KJV errors. The errors, especially, are very suspect, like someone simply copied the KJV Bible.

[Phoenix]

There are lots of p***ages that are quoted from the OT
But there are some p***ages that don't give attribution to the ones that came first. That is called plagiarism by people who like to make such accusations.

Plus, where the BOM actually says that it's quoting Isaiah, there really can't be plagiarism, because......attribution is given, for example "As the prophet Isaiah prophesied...." etc.

And saying that it's plagiarism because it has the same mistakes as the Bible has, is admitting that the Bible has mistakes, so you may want to think twice before using that argument.

[Billyray]

But there are some p***ages that don't give attribution to the ones that came first. That is called plagiarism by people who like to make such accusations.

Which ones are you talking about so we can take a look at them?

[Billyray]

Plus, where the BOM actually says that it's quoting Isaiah, there really can't be plagiarism, because......attribution is given, for example "As the prophet Isaiah prophesied...." etc.*

In the examples that I gave above I wasn't even talking about the dozens of chapters of Isaiah what were taken word for word.


Joseph smith’s plagiarism of the BiBle in the Book of mormon
by Jerald and Sandra Tanner
pages 83-85


Alma 5

KJV: power and authority (Luke 9:1)
BM: power and authority (Alma 5:3)

KJV: yea, I say unto you (Matt. 11:9)
BM: yea, I say unto you (Alma 5:5)

KJV: in remembrance that (2 Tim. 1:6)
BM: in remembrance that (Alma 5:6)

KJV: were illuminated (Heb. 10:32)
BM: were illuminated (Alma 5:7)

KJV: everlasting destruction (2 Thess. 1:9)
BM: everlasting destruction (Alma 5:7)

KJV: And I say unto you that (Matt. 8:11)
BM: And I say unto you that (Alma 5:9)

KJV: he preached the word unto (Mark 2:2)
BM: he preached the word unto (Alma 5:13)

KJV: born of God (1 John 3:9)
BM: born of God (Alma 5:14)

KJV: raised in incorruption (1 Cor. 15:42)
BM: raised in incorruption (Alma 5:15)

KJV: stand before God (Rev. 20:12)
BM: stand before God (Alma 5:15)

KJV: be judged according to (1 Peter 4:6)
BM: be judged according to (Alma 5:15)

KJV: mortal body (Rom. 6:12)
BM: mortal body (Alma 5:15)

KJV: works of righteousness (***us 3:5)
BM: works of righteousness (Alma 5:16)

KJV: with a pure heart (1 Peter 1:22)
BM: with a pure heart (Alma 5:19)

KJV: to the devil (Eph. 4:27)
BM: to the devil (Alma 5:20)

KJV: ye cannot be saved (Acts 27:31)
BM: ye cannot be saved (Alma 5:21)

KJV: his people from their sins (Matt. 1:21)
BM: his people from their sins (Alma 5:21)

KJV: guilty of all (James 2:10)
BM: guilty of all (Alma 5:23)

KJV: sit down in the kingdom of God (Luke 13:29)
BM: sit down in the kingdom of God (Alma 5:24)

KJV: pure and white (Rev. 15:6)
BM: pure and white (Alma 5:24)

KJV: he is a liar (John 8:44)
BM: he is a liar (Alma 5:25)

KJV: in the kingdom of heaven (Matt. 18:4)
BM: in the kingdom of heaven (Alma 5:25)

KJV: the children of the kingdom (Matt. 8:12)
BM: the children of the kingdom (Alma 5:25)

KJV: sing the song of (Rev. 15:3)
BM: sing the song of (Alma 5:26)

KJV: through the blood of (Col. 1:20)
BM: through the blood of (Alma 5:27)

KJV: his people from their sins (Matt. 1:21)
BM: his people from their sins (Alma 5:27)

KJV: for the kingdom of heaven is (Matt. 3:2)
BM: for the kingdom of heaven is (Alma 5:28)

KJV: one among you (John 1:26)
BM: one among you (Alma 5:29)

KJV: for the hour is (John 5:28)
BM: for the hour is (Alma 5:29)

KJV: the time shall come (John 16:4)
BM: the time shall come (Alma 5:29)

KJV: And again I say unto you (Matt. 19:24)
BM: And again I say unto you (Alma 5:30)

KJV: and I will receive you (2 Cor. 6:17)
BM: and I will receive you (Alma 5:33)

KJV: works of righteousness (***us 3:5)
BM: works of righteousness (Alma 5:35)

KJV: hewn down, and cast into the fire (Matt. 3:10)
BM: hewn down and cast into the fire (Alma 5:35)

KJV: are puffed up (1 Cor. 5:2)
BM: are puffed up (Alma 5:37)

KJV: things of the world (1 Cor. 1:27)
BM: things of the world (Alma 5:37)

KJV: as sheep having no shepherd (Matt. 9:36)
BM: as sheep having no shepherd (Alma 5:37)

KJV: the good shepherd (John 10:11)
BM: the good shepherd (Alma 5:38)

KJV: in his own name (John 5:43)
BM: in his own name (Alma 5:38)

KJV: the name of Christ (1 Peter 4:14)
BM: the name of Christ (Alma 5:38)

KJV: Whosoever denieth (1 John 2:23)
BM: whosoever denieth (Alma 5:39)

KJV: child of the devil (Acts 13:10)
BM: child of the devil (Alma 5:39)

KJV: cometh from God (John 5:44)
BM: cometh from God (Alma 5:40)

KJV: bringeth forth good (Matt. 12:35)
BM: bringeth forth good (Alma 5:41)

KJV: bringeth forth evil (Matt. 12:35)
BM: bringeth forth evil (Alma 5:41)

KJV: unto all good works (2 Tim. 3:17)
BM: unto all good works (Alma 5:42)

KJV: of God, which is in Christ Jesus (Rom. 8:39)
BM: of God, which is in Christ Jesus (Alma 5:44)

KJV: testify unto you (Rev. 22:16)
BM: testify unto you (Alma 5:45)

KJV: the Holy Spirit of God (Eph. 4:30)
BM: the Holy Spirit of God (Alma 5:46)

KJV: written in the book of life (Rev. 13:8)
BM: written in the book of life (Alma 5:58)

KJV: will I grant (Rev. 3:21)
BM: will I grant (Alma 5:58)

KJV: For the word of God (Heb. 4:12)
BM: for the word of God (Alma 5:58)

KJV: of him who hath (Rom. 8:20)
BM: of him who hath (Alma 5:61)

[Libby]

But there are some p***ages that don't give attribution to the ones that came first. That is called plagiarism by people who like to make such accusations.

Plus, where the BOM actually says that it's quoting Isaiah, there really can't be plagiarism, because......attribution is given, for example "As the prophet Isaiah prophesied...." etc.

And saying that it's plagiarism because it has the same mistakes as the Bible has, is admitting that the Bible has mistakes, so you may want to think twice before using that argument.

The KJV has some specific translation errors that were copied into the Book of Mormon. Now, since the KJV didn't even exist until 1611, it's highly unlikely (I would say impossible) that, whomever copied those verses, way back when, would have made those same exact errors.

Most translations have some error. When Christians talk about an inerrant Bible, they are talking about the Bible in its' original form.

[alanmolstad]

The KJV has some specific translation errors that were copied into the Book of Mormon. Now, since the KJV didn't even exist until 1611, it's highly unlikely (I would say impossible) that, whomever copied those verses, way back when, would have made those same exact errors.

Most translations have some error. When Christians talk about an inerrant Bible, they are talking about the Bible in its' original form.is there anynoe who actually trusts the Mormon bible?...or are they simply overlooking as it seems?

[Libby]

is there anynoe who actually trusts the Mormon bible?...or are they simply overlooking as it seems?

Most Mormons claim to have a testimony of the Book of Mormon. I thought I did for along time.

[alanmolstad]

Most Mormons claim to have a testimony of the Book of Mormon. .what did you think?

[Libby]

what did you think?

I thought it was true. I thought it was an ancient writing.

(Is that what you mean?)

[alanmolstad]

so itwas told well to you?

[Libby]

Sorry, not sure what you mean?

[alanmolstad]

the whole Smith story.....told well to you?

[Libby]

the whole Smith story.....told well to you?

Not really. I didn't know that much about Joseph Smith, when I first joined the church. I came in through the LDS prophet, at that time, Gordon B. Hinckley. He wrote a book called, "Standing for Something"...and I happened to catch some quotes from it on a political board I had been posting on (of all things). I really liked this book (I bought it on Amazon) and consequently liked Gordon Hinckley. That was the first phase. Shortly after I read Hinckley's book, I took a trip to Washington D.C. and stayed in a Marriott Hotel. I knew nothing of "Marriott", at the time. So, I unpack and open the drawer of the bed stand, to put my medication in there...and lo and behold, there is a Book of Mormon in there. I about fainted...not kidding! I thought it was probably a sign or a miracle of some kind....really, I did. *sigh* I put it in my suitcase and brought it home. I still have it. It's all highlighted with notes in the margins. I read it. Had what I thought was a real spiritual experience with it.

Then, the next "miracle" was that LDS missionaries showed up at my door, while I was reading the book. They had no idea...and I will never forget this one missionary, because he had chosen my house to come to and he got soooo excited when he heard I was reading the Book of Mormon. I didn't let them in, at the time, because I told them I was still reading and not really ready to talk to anyone about it, yet. They were cool with that, and I never saw them again. When I did, finally, feel ready, I asked this online friend of mine, who had quoted from Hinckley's book, how to get in touch with the missionaries. He sent them out to my house the very next day....and I was baptized about two months after that.

[Libby]

The thing about my conversion was that I was totally focused on the spiritual side of it (and having, what seemed like too many coincidences to be just "coincidence", y/k?). I knew very little of the history of the church...knew nothing of JS's polygamy, ages of the women, already married women, etc. Also didn't know much about the Book of Abraham stuff...the papyri that was not translated correctly really had a huge impact on my testimony.

[Libby]

Also, it's true that I was not very familiar with the Bible. I had been away from Christianity for years.

[Phoenix]

Not really. I didn't know that much about Joseph Smith, when I first joined the church. I came in through the LDS prophet, at that time, Gordon B. Hinckley. He wrote a book called, "Standing for Something"...and I happened to catch some quotes from it on a political board I had been posting on (of all things). I really liked this book (I bought it on Amazon) and consequently liked Gordon Hinckley. That was the first phase. Shortly after I read Hinckley's book, I took a trip to Washington D.C. and stayed in a Marriott Hotel. I knew nothing of "Marriott", at the time. So, I unpack and open the drawer of the bed stand, to put my medication in there...and lo and behold, there is a Book of Mormon in there. I about fainted...not kidding! I thought it was probably a sign or a miracle of some kind....really, I did. *sigh* I put it in my suitcase and brought it home. I still have it. It's all highlighted with notes in the margins. I read it. Had what I thought was a real spiritual experience with it.

Then, the next "miracle" was that LDS missionaries showed up at my door, while I was reading the book. They had no idea.....

So how do you NOW explain those unlikely events? Just coincidences? The devil "arranged" for you to read and like the Hinckley book, then arranged for you stay in a Marriott, and then arranged for the missionaries to randomly knock on your door while you were reading the BOM you took with you from the hotel?

[Libby]

So how do you NOW explain those unlikely events? Just coincidences? The devil "arranged" for you to read and like the Hinckley book, then arranged for you stay in a Marriott, and then arranged for the missionaries to randomly knock on your door while you were reading the BOM you took with you from the hotel?

Wow, just when I thought no one had even read my long winded response to Alan. :)

To be honest, I had a very difficult time dealing with all of this. I had my foot on both sides of the LDS door for a very long time. Found myself feeling very insecure, at times, about leaving the church...not sure I was doing the right thing.

I don't think there was any one moment that I finally felt released from it. Just a gradual awareness that the church was really not what it presented itself to be....couldn't be, IMHO. Not just church history, but as I read and studied the Bible, even LDS doctrine was really bothering me. That "shelf" that the LDS leaders tell you to put your doubts and questions on, became much too overloaded and finally fell. There was too much evidence, too much doubt, too much cognitive dissonance trying to rectify it all.

So, all of those things that happened to me, to bring me into the church? I don't really know. It didn't feel like something "evil"....but, it was error in judgement, on my part. I was too anxious for comfort (my father had just p***ed away). The church filled a hole and gave me comfort for a time. Families Forever was a HUGE comfort to me, at that time. But, I realize now that true peace and comfort has to come from the truth about Jesus Christ. I just don't believe the LDS Church has that truth. They have "some" truth and a lot of error mixed in. And, false prophets that created all of that.

[Phoenix]

But you didn't answer my questions. What you used to strongly believe were miracles, you now explain....how?
Your only alternative options that I see are:

a) Sheer random coincidences, or
b) Conspiracy of Satan to arrange for those events to happen to you when they did.

Or,

c) Your initial belief was actually the correct one: God was putting people and things into your life to give you the chance to accept true doctrine, including the doctrine of the chance for your family to be together forever.

What if your father was happy about your initial choice? What if he is, even now, hoping you will return to the teachings that once brought you a lot of joy, peace of mind, and hope for the future?

[Libby]

But you didn't answer my questions. What you used to strongly believe were miracles, you now explain....how?

I did, actually, answer. I just don't really know, other than to speculate. I think it is likely that my focus on Gordon Hinckley caused me to focus on all things LDS. I may have, otherwise, not even noticed the Book of Mormon in that drawer. I had stayed at Marriott Hotels before and never really took notice. I do hesitate to attribute it to something "evil". Mainly, it was my own lack of true investigation into the beliefs of the church (and mainstream Christianity, in general). I grabbed onto a feel goodism and ran with it. I had been very agnostic before that experience and not very well versed (at all!) in the Bible.


Your only alternative options that I see are:

a) Sheer random coincidences, or
b) Conspiracy of Satan to arrange for those events to happen to you when they did.

Or,

c) Your initial belief was actually the correct one: God was putting people and things into your life to give you the chance to accept true doctrine, including the doctrine of the chance for your family to be together forever.

Probably, none of the above.


What if your father was happy about your initial choice? What if he is, even now, hoping you will return to the teachings that once brought you a lot of joy, peace of mind, and hope for the future?

Of course, in the beginning, I thought he was happy about it. Now, I think he is just happy that I found the truth about who Jesus really was/is.. I know I will see him and my mother again.

[Phoenix]

Probably, none of the above.


I don't see how that can be possible. Those missionaries did in fact show up at your door, and they just happened to do so at the very time you were reading the Book of Mormon. Yet you say that probably wasn't a random coincidence. If it wasn't just a coincidence, then someone or something deliberately put them there at that time in your life.

[RealFakeHair]

I don't see how that can be possible. Those missionaries did in fact show up at your door, and they just happened to do so at the very time you were reading the Book of Mormon. Yet you say that probably wasn't a random coincidence. If it wasn't just a coincidence, then someone or something deliberately put them there at that time in your life.

The devil made them do it?

[Libby]

I don't see how that can be possible. Those missionaries did in fact show up at your door, and they just happened to do so at the very time you were reading the Book of Mormon. Yet you say that probably wasn't a random coincidence. If it wasn't just a coincidence, then someone or something deliberately put them there at that time in your life.

Like I said, I don't know. I do think we can attract things to ourselves, though, when we are focusing on a particular thing.

[Phoenix]

The devil made them do it?

That has to be one of the possibilities, along with "The Holy Spirit inspired them to do it."

[RealFakeHair]

That has to be one of the possibilities, along with "The Holy Spirit inspired them to do it."

I don't believe the spirit of the LDSinc. No, I know the spirits of the LDSinc. Is not the Holy Ghost of the Holy Bible.
However I also know you disagree.

[Phoenix]

I don't believe the spirit of the LDSinc. No, I know the spirits of the LDSinc. Is not the Holy Ghost of the Holy Bible.
However I also know you disagree.

But one thing you don't know, is that I know that you are wrong.

[RealFakeHair]

But one thing you don't know, is that I know that you are wrong.

I can be more wrong than right, but the Holy Bible never will fail you in your search for Truth. Leave Joseph Smith jr. Imaginary mind behind you and begin the path to Salvation through Jesus Christ, and not an org. LDSinc.

[Libby]

but the Holy Bible never will fail you in your search for Truth.

That's right, which is why Joseph Smith could not have possibly been a prophet. (That and for many other reasons).

[RealFakeHair]

That's right, which is why Joseph Smith could not have possibly been a prophet. (That and for many other reasons).

Yes, but it is very difficult for anyone to admit they are, or were wrong. Religion is such a personal thing that when one comes to the understanding they have been sucked into a cult it can be devastating to the mind, body and soul, and sometime it can't be repaired.

[Libby]

Yes, but it is very difficult for anyone to admit they are, or were wrong. Religion is such a personal thing that when one comes to the understanding they have been sucked into a cult it can be devastating to the mind, body and soul, and sometime it can't be repaired.

You don't have to tell me that. Been there. It is not pleasant.

But, I do know that "most" true believing LDS are very sincere in the belief that they have the truth. They believe they have proof of that, in the form of a Holy Ghost testimony...and that's difficult to argue with.

[RealFakeHair]

You don't have to tell me that. Been there. It is not pleasant.

But, I do know that "most" true believing LDS are very sincere in the belief that they have the truth. They believe they have proof of that, in the form of a Holy Ghost testimony...and that's difficult to argue with.

No matter the religion or belief system, when it comes to faith it is not about arguing or debating. It is about what goes on inside the brain when it comes to all things LDSinc. Cognitive dissonance is working overtime, and I find that most interesting. I don't mind a TBM believing they can become a god and have dominion over a planet or Universe, but to try and say the Holy Bible teaches such is nonsense. However my biggest brain drain is their belief in the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith jr. Imaginary mind. He was nothing more than a sex addict, and con-not-so-good artist.

[Phoenix]

I can be more wrong than right, but the Holy Bible never will fail you in your search for Truth.
Yes, and one source of my knowledge that you are wrong, IS the Bible. It hasn't failed me yet in telling me how wrong you are about the LDS.

[RealFakeHair]

Yes, and one source of my knowledge that you are wrong, IS the Bible. It hasn't failed me yet in telling me how wrong you are about the LDS.

Okay, you got me, I just read I can become a god and live on a planet with my many wives. Although my earthly wife just informed me she aint goin along with it.
I tried to show here in the Bible where it says all this, but I forget where it was, so maybe you can tell me again?

[Phoenix]

Okay, you got me, I just read I can become a god and live on a planet with my many wives. Although my earthly wife just informed me she aint goin along with it.
That's okay, because she probably wouldn't want to spend eternity with you anyhow, right? :)


I tried to show here in the Bible where it says all this, but I forget where it was, so maybe you can tell me again?
Sorry, I can't even find what you're claiming in the Book of Mormon, so I guess you're on your own. Maybe you can ask for a refund from the person who you're relying on for what you believe to be official LDS doctrine.

[RealFakeHair]

That's okay, because she probably wouldn't want to spend eternity with you anyhow, right? :)


Sorry, I can't even find what you're claiming in the Book of Mormon, so I guess you're on your own. Maybe you can ask for a refund from the person who you're relying on for what you believe to be official LDS doctrine.
nothing wrong with humor. We all need it from time to time.

[Libby]

Sorry, I can't even find what you're claiming in the Book of Mormon, so I guess you're on your own. Maybe you can ask for a refund from the person who you're relying on for what you believe to be official LDS doctrine.

Nope, it's not in the Book of Mormon. He would have to go to the Book of Abraham, Book of Moses and the Temple and many LDS writings, to find that stuff.

[Gary_Biblelover]

Can a person believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet and not believe his messages? IHS jim

Come on I need an answer.. I promise not to comment of your answers.. I just want to get some idea of what friends and "enemies" think on this subject.. IHS jim

James that is a great question to ask. I would say no, and here is why. As a prophet, he fails the test. Start with Deut. 13:1-5 (for context)
1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2 And the sign or the wonder come to p***, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4 Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the Lord your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the Lord thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

So he fails the test as being a true prophet.

Secondly, though the BoM has some very orthodox theology about God, that was then. Later teaching perverts the nature of God (polytheism versus the monotheism of orthodox Christianity)

Third, the character and conduct of Joseph are definitely NOT in accordance with the word of God. Between his multiple wives, etc.

Fourth, No true prophet of God will ever contradict what God has already said in his precious word, the Bible.

I hope this is helpful to you. Thanks for reading.

Gary

[John T]

Can a person believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet and not believe his messages?


Yes some things.

How is that possible?

For example if there is a TBM who who has a live-in girlfriend it is obvious that he is not being "chaste" as a requirement for a Temple recommend. How then can that TBM maintain his temple recommend? Does that mean a LSD redefinition of the word and the concept to be "one live-in girl friend/boy friend at a time"?

I am sure that such a thing is common, and not hypothetical.

[dberrie2000]

How is that possible?

For example if there is a TBM who who has a live-in girlfriend it is obvious that he is not being "chaste" as a requirement for a Temple recommend. How then can that TBM maintain his temple recommend?

John--there is no requirement in the Temple Recommend that requires one to believe everything a TBM states--or everything that any prophet or apostle states. What is canonized is LDS scripture--and everything leaders state is not necessarily considered scripture.