Does the Father draw ALL men to Christ?

[Billyray]

I think that most--if not all--posters here on WM would agree that the Father draws men to Christ. But there seems be a consensus on this forum that God draws ALL men to Christ. I am one of the few that believes that the Father draws some--but not all--men to Christ. I am interested in finding out from those who believe that the Father draws ALL men to Christ what verses they are using to come to this conclusion.

[Libby]

Ah, okay. I think some of them have already been quoted, Billy. There are many.

Off the top of my head, is the one Alan quoted about Jesus, when he is lifted up, drawing all men to himself. (Had to look that up - John 12:32)

[Libby]

1 Timothy 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

[Libby]

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[Libby]

Did you want to discuss these verse, before we go on, Billy?

They seem rather straight up, to me...but, I know Calvinists have explanations for the word "all". The meaning of all is not universal, to them. It means a select group (those whom God is saving).

[Billyray]

Ah, okay. I think some of them have already been quoted, Billy. There are many.

Off the top of my head, is the one Alan quoted about Jesus, when he is lifted up, drawing all men to himself. (Had to look that up - John 12:32)
John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” ESV

1 Timothy 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[Billyray]

Did you want to discuss these verse, before we go on, Billy?

Thanks for giving me some of the verses that you use in substantiating your belief that the Father draws all men (all people) to Christ. I am interested in why others hold this belief particularly which verses they are using to substantiate this belief and I am more than happy to just let people share with me all of the verses that they feel supports this position.

[alanmolstad]

John 5:19
Jesus gave them this answer: "Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does

so according to this verse, can the son draw all men while the father is not drawing them also?


and the answer is - "I can of mine own self do nothing"

[Billyray]

John 5:19
Jesus gave them this answer: "Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does

so according to this verse, can the son draw all men while the father is not drawing them also?
This verse says nothing about the Father drawing men to Christ, and we have already discussed the problems with ***uming things into this particular text that are not there--for example as we previously discussed that the Son died on the cross but the Father did not. But if you want to try and use this verse then let's look at it.

1. There is nothing in this verse that says one thing about the Father drawing all men to Christ.
2. The Son can ONLY do what HE sees his Father doing.
3. Since the Father draws some men but not all men to Christ
4. This would be mean that the Son also draws some but not all men to Himself.

[alanmolstad]

the Son draws ALL men to himself...
The Father draws All men to the Son...
God draws All men to Himself....

However you want to say it, as there is no difference really, and the Son cant draw men to himself unless he sees the father doing it...as the Son cant do anything apart from the father doing it....

Thus my answer is the correct answer.....case-closed!

[alanmolstad]

Ah, okay. I think some of them have already been quoted, Billy. There are many.

Off the top of my head, is the one Alan quoted about Jesus, when he is lifted up, drawing all men to himself. (Had to look that up - John 12:32)



BINGO!

Well done again Ms Libby!
50 Bonus Points for Team Libby.......and you advance in rank to "CalvinSpanker....1st Cl***"

[Billyray]

the Son draws ALL men to himself...

John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Christ said in John 6:44 that the only ones that can come to Him are those who are drawn by the Father and those who are drawn by the Father are raised. Thus if God did indeed draw every single person then every single person would be raised. In order for John 6:44 and John 12:32 to both be true the only explanation would be that God draws a specific group of people to Christ and Christ draws all those given to Him by the Father.



The Father draws All men to the Son...

You have yet to show me a single verse to substantiate this claim. In fact John 6:44 disproves this because those who are drawn are raised and we both know that every single person will not be rasied.


God draws All men to Himself....

You have yet to show me a single verse that says that the Father draws all men to Himself.

[Billyray]

BINGO!

Well done again Ms Libby!
50 Bonus Points for Team Libby.......and you advance in rank to "CalvinSpanker....1st Cl***"
Of all of the verses that anyone has provided thus far--how many say that the Father draws ALL men to Christ?

[Libby]

This verse says nothing about the Father drawing men to Christ, and we have already discussed the problems with ***uming things into this particular text that are not there--for example as we previously discussed that the Son died on the cross but the Father did not. But if you want to try and use this verse then let's look at it.

1. There is nothing in this verse that says one thing about the Father drawing all men to Christ.
2. The Son can ONLY do what HE sees his Father doing.
3. Since the Father draws some men but not all men to Christ
4. This would be mean that the Son also draws some but not all men to Himself.

What that verse (Alan's verse) is really saying is that the Father and Son act in unison. They are in complete alignment with every thought and act.

I'm not sure why you are making the distinction between the Father drawing people to himself or drawing people to Christ. Is there a difference, in your mind? Why do you keep pointing this out?

[Libby]

Thanks for giving me some of the verses that you use in substantiating your belief that the Father draws all men (all people) to Christ. I am interested in why others hold this belief particularly which verses they are using to substantiate this belief and I am more than happy to just let people share with me all of the verses that they feel supports this position.

I think there are many more. I also found some verses in the O.T., but not sure about using the O.T., because God did have a particular race of "chosen people" at that time, and the "all" verses, likely refer to His chosen and not the whole world.

I think, you might say the O.T. is a blue print for interpreting the N.T (in regards to salvation)...?

[Billyray]

What that verse (Alan's verse) is really saying is that the Father and Son act in unison. They are in complete alignment with every thought and act.

If they are in unison and since Christ is the one who speaks in both verses then you can only conclude that the Father draws some--but not all-to Christ--and all of those who are drawn are raised.

[Libby]

If they are in unison and since Christ is the one who speaks in both verses then you can only conclude that the Father draws some--but not all-to Christ--and all of those who are drawn are raised.

I'm sorry, I'm not following.

Where does it say the Father draws only "some" to himself or to Christ?

[Billyray]

I think there are many more. I also found some verses in the O.T., but not sure about using the O.T., because God did have a particular race of "chosen people" at that time, and the "all" verses, likely refer to His chosen and not the whole world.

I think, you might say the O.T. is a blue print for interpreting the N.T (in regards to salvation)...?
People in the OT were saved in the same way that they are in the NT in that they place their faith in Christ (for those in the OT it was the coming Messiah). With that said--and given the fact that the majority of people who lived during the OT had never even heard of Christ (i.e coming Messiah)--how can you possibly conclude that the Father has drawn every single person to Christ?

[Billyray]

I'm sorry, I'm not following.

Where does it say the Father draws only "some" to himself or to Christ?
John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Those who are drawn ARE raised. Therefore those who are drawn can't possibly be all men but rather those who are raised.

[Libby]

John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Those who are drawn ARE raised. Therefore those who are drawn can't possibly be all men but rather those who are raised.

I see. Thanks.

I was reading "draws them" as all...and those who come to the Father will be raised up (not all).

[Libby]

People in the OT were saved in the same way that they are in the NT in that they place their faith in Christ (for those in the OT it was the coming Messiah). With that said--and given the fact that the majority of people who lived during the OT had never even heard of Christ (i.e coming Messiah)--how can you possibly conclude that the Father has drawn every single person to Christ?

I really don't know. I will have to think about this and do some more reading. What I do know is that God is "just"...so, there has to be a way...and no one may really have an answer to this.

[Billyray]

I really don't know. I will have to think about this and do some more reading. What I do know is that God is "just"...so, there has to be a way...and no one may really have an answer to this.
God is both "just" and "gracious". If God were "just" and not "gracious" then he would convict all of us because we have all broken the law and are guilty. The same would be true with a human judge. If a person who was guilty of a crime came before him and the evidence was conclusive that this was the case then a "just" judge would convict that person because he is guilty. If a judge let every single person go free we would say that he is not a "just" judge. So how can God show that he is both "just" and "gracious"? He shows His justice by convicting those who are guilty and He shows grace/mercy by pardoning some who are guilty and don't deserve to be set free. I know that looking at this from a human perspective some may say that this is unfair. Paul anticipated this reaction and that is why he addresses it in the following section of scripture. This is an important section of scripture because if it seem as fair from the human perspective there would be no reason to bring this up--in fact it would make no sense.

Romans 9
19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

[Libby]

God is both "just" and "gracious". If God were "just" and not "gracious" then he would convict all of us because we have all broken the law and are guilty. The same would be true with a human judge. If a person who was guilty of a crime came before him and the evidence was conclusive that this was the case then a "just" judge would convict that person because he is guilty. If a judge let every single person go free we would say that he is not a "just" judge. So how can God show that he is both "just" and "gracious"? He shows His justice by convicting those who are guilty and He show grace by pardoning some who don't deserve to be set free. I know that looking at this from a human perspective some may say that this is unfair.

It is unfair, Billy, which is why most people cannot wrap their heads around it.

[Billyray]

It is unfair, Billy, which is why most people cannot wrap their heads around it.
I understand and I can see how people can feel this way--because as a Mormon I certainly felt this way. And when I first came out of Mormonism I would cl***ify myself in hindsight as Arminian--but I didn't really know the difference between the two at that time. So why did I shift in my beliefs over time? The bottom line answer is over the years of reading the Bible I could not justify my position. I think it was hard for me as well to fully accept this position because using human reasoning it can appear unfair--just like other sections of the Bible for example in the OT when men, women and children are killed--but this is taught and so I accept that this is God's word and that my understanding is not God's understanding and His ways are higher than my ways. That is my answer. Here is Paul's answer to your objection--which is much more blunt.


Romans 9
19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

[alanmolstad]

I'm sorry, I'm not following.

Where does it say the Father draws only "some" to himself or to Christ?

thats cuz he draws All men!

[alanmolstad]

I see. Thanks.

I was reading "draws them" as all...and those who come to the Father will be raised up (not all).

all are drawn....some respond and draw near.....

they who come are never sent away.



its like hearing a bell call everyone to church on sunday.
All are calledregardless of their religion.
and they who come to church are never sent away

[alanmolstad]

If they are in unison and since Christ is the one who speaks in both verses then you can only conclude that the Father draws some--but not all-to Christ--and all of those who are drawn are raised.
no, the father draws all, because the Son draws all.
The Son can do nothing unless he sees the father doing it.
Thus the moment we read that the Son draws all men to himself, we know that the father is the one doing the drawiung though the Son.....

Case-closed!

[alanmolstad]

as far as the number of people called by God being less than the number of people that finally come to Christ?.....thats just normal.

Its like this:
On Sunday morning in the small farm town where I live, the church bell will ring.
The bell rings to call all of the people in my home town to come and worship God in the church.
Everyone in the whole town hears the bell.
But not everyone gets up and goes to church.

So although the church is drawing all the people in the town to come and worship, only they who come actually worship at the church.

All are called...
All are drawn...

And all of they who come will find the door open and well be welcome and never sent away!

So all the people that come to church were first drawn there by the church bell, and no person who comes to church was not first drawn there by the ringing bell of the church.


LIBBY, Im going to say that last sentence again because i really want you to understand how this "being drawn" works in the faith.

"
So all the people that come to church were first drawn there by the church bell.....AND no person who comes to church was not first drawn there by the ringing bell of the church.


This is the same way it is when God calls us to himself.
The universe itself calls out to us about this hidden nature of God and his calling on our hearts.

This fact that the calling of God is so "clearly seen" in the creation is why the Bible says "so that people are without excuse."

Ever ask yourself, "Excuse from what?"

the answer is also just as clear....there is no excuse for unbelief .....this is because the calling of god is "clearly seen".

It's not hidden!

Its not for a "few"

It's not for "some" ( note that Billy)

Thus the FACT is, that "all men" receive this drawing action of God to Himself.
You cant hide from it.
The calling of God is seen clearly everywhere.

So regardless of who you are, regardless of where you are, or when you lived, and regardless of your religion, you are drawn to God.
God is always drawing all men to Himself.

[alanmolstad]

John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Amen!

all are drawn, and they who respond(come to Jesus) will be raised!

[alanmolstad]

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

God loved all men....not some...not a few...but the whole world of men.

and all they who come to Christ have eternal life.



So the drawing of God is to all men to believe.
And all of they who respond and come to Christ have eternal life.

[disciple]

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

God loved all men....not some...not a few...but the whole world of men.

and all they who come to Christ have eternal life.



So the drawing of God is to all men to believe.
And all of they who respond and come to Christ have eternal life.

We also must take into account verses such as the following which seem to include everyone.
“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.” Rom 1-16

“that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
Rom 10:9-14

[James Banta]

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

God loved all men....not some...not a few...but the whole world of men.

and all they who come to Christ have eternal life.



So the drawing of God is to all men to believe.
And all of they who respond and come to Christ have eternal life.

If the case was close why did you need three more posts on the same non reverent topic? Time to stop your campaign against a doctrine held by a great number of solid Believers in the One true God, and His provision for our salvation, and get back to showing the LDS their error is teaching against those points.. IHS jim

[Libby]

John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Amen!

all are drawn, and they who respond(come to Jesus) will be raised!

Yes, that's exactly how I am reading it.

[Libby]

We also must take into account verses such as the following which seem to include everyone.
“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.” Rom 1-16

“that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
Rom 10:9-14

These are good verses, as well, disciple. So much of the New Testament does seem to indicate that God wants ALL to come to Him. That ALL are called to come to Christ.

[Libby]

I understand and I can see how people can feel this way--because as a Mormon I certainly felt this way. And when I first came out of Mormonism I would cl***ify myself in hindsight as Arminian--but I didn't really know the difference between the two at that time. So why did I shift in my beliefs over time? The bottom line answer is over the years of reading the Bible I could not justify my position. I think it was hard for me as well to fully accept this position because using human reasoning it can appear unfair--just like other sections of the Bible for example in the OT when men, women and children are killed--but this is taught and so I accept that this is God's word and that my understanding is not God's understanding and His ways are higher than my ways. That is my answer. Here is Paul's answer to your objection--which is much more blunt.


Romans 9
19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Yes, I'm aware of these verses and also some of the problems with claiming that God draws all men. There are many areas in the Bible that do seem to point towards a Calvinistic view, which is how I ended up in a Reformed Church. But, I have never felt easy with it....could not really rest on that belief, because it has never felt right.

[James Banta]

Yes, I'm aware of these verses and also some of the problems with claiming that God draws all men. There are many areas in the Bible that do seem to point towards a Calvinistic view, which is how I ended up in a Reformed Church. But, I have never felt easy with it....could not really rest on that belief, because it has never felt right.

We have all heard your doubts before about the truth of the Bible.. If you really have serious doubts please work them out before you come into a channel that is dedicated to reaching the lost by the word of God that you doubt.. IHS jim

[Libby]

Stop the board nannying, James. I will post where and when I please. I don't need your permission, so knock it off.

I have always had faith in the Bible. Questioning interpretations does not indicate lack of faith in God or his word. It is a lack of faith in MAN that has been my source of "doubt".

[James Banta]

Stop the board nannying, James. I will post where and when I please. I don't need your permission, so knock it off.

I have always had faith in the Bible. Questioning interpretations does not indicate lack of faith in God or his word. It is a lack of faith in MAN that has been my source of "doubt".

Then do some study so you don't sound so uneducated. To say you were a worker in the temple and yet denied knowledge of blood atonement is unbelievable.. Each of the keys and signs had a penalty showing how you would allow your life to be taken for revealing the sign.. But that was before 1991.. Maybe you never went to the temple before that date.. If not you could have learned of their "Blood Atonement" online.. To me it sounds like you believe their TV ads while thinking that everyone that waves a red flag showing their anti-God, anti-christian doctrines are just a bunch of wackos. Paul knew about the paganism of the Greeks, maybe you should know about the paganism of mormonism.. IHS jim

[Libby]

James, all of your chances are up. I'm really done trying to have an intelligent conversation with you. You continue to misquote and misstate what I have said. You are truly (as Alan says) "just making stuff up". If you want to know about my experiences, why don't you just ask, instead of dreaming up your own story? Your "imaginings" are not even close to reality.

[James Banta]

James, all of your chances are up. I'm really done trying to have an intelligent conversation with you. You continue to misquote and misstate what I have said. You are truly (as Alan says) "just making stuff up". If you want to know about my experiences, why don't you just ask, instead of dreaming up your own story? Your "imaginings" are not even close to reality.

Your chances are up as well.. From now on I will take you on on all your uneducated posts, all your pandering posts, and all your posts based in false teaching.. Go ahead and put me on ignore all the other posters will see my answers to your erred posts with no answer from you to those answers. It will look as though you have no response.. That is fine with me.. That should handle about 90% of everything you say here.. Alan has started pandering as much as you do.. He will also be watched.. Jesus showed us the example of how to deal with error.. Not only the Pharisees, but also with His own disciples as He told Peter to "get behind me Satan" (Matthew 16:23).. When you teach error that is what you will have to do.. GET BEHIND ME SATAN..

As far as what you did in the temple, if indeed you did work in the temple, it had to be after 1991 or else you were doing something where you never caught the blood atonement that was symbolized in the endowment before 1991. There was symbolic throat slashing, bowel openings, and chest slicing. And you didn't know or wonder where such things came from? That is UNEDUCATED.. IHS jim

[Libby]

There you go bullying and threatening again, James...and not reading posts carefully.

I have already said in TWO POSTS that my Temple service was AFTER 1990. I have also said I KNOW about the penalty oaths. You have confused what I said about those things not being taught NOW, with thinking that I do not know about them. I have known about them for along time.

I'll be watching you. You make many mistakes and bear false witness against people all the time. You will definitely be watched and corrected.

[James Banta]

There you go bullying and threatening again, James...and not reading posts carefully.

I have already said in TWO POSTS that my Temple service was AFTER 1990. I have also said I KNOW about the penalty oaths. You have confused what I said about those things not being taught NOW, with thinking that I do not know about them. I have known about them for along time.

I'll be watching you. You make many mistakes and bear false witness against people all the time. You will definitely be watched and corrected.

Show me a threat I have made? I have made NONE.. I have a wish that you would leave here. I have asked you to do so but I never threatened you with expulsion. I haven't that authority.. I haven't threatened you in any way.. I have NEVER accused you of breaking the Ninth commandment but you make a practice out of doing so against me.. I have explained the seriousness of making such an unsupported charge.. You don't like the use of historic teachings of mormonism being used to show how the LDS church as evolved over the years, you don't like that even the tale they tell about the "Plan of salvation" demands that Jesus is a creation of the Father who sometime during His preexistence became a God.. That story is denied in LDS doctrines that teaches that 1. A person must p*** through mortality. 2. Be tested for faithfulness in that mortality. 3. Be baptized by those in authority. 4. have those with more authority lay their hand on Him to bestow the Holy Ghost. 5. Get married in the temple for Time and all eternity, and 6. Endure to the end in righteousness..

But Jesus because of His birth order was able to byp*** all that and receive Godhood without having done any of that.. Is that a false witness? YES but it is mormonism's witness not mine.. Since you think that they are so Christian, it is your problem as well.. You may as well be one of them to make such a defense for them against me and others.. I get private messages that encourage me to keep you under pressure to leave the channel.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

no, the father draws all, because the Son draws all.
The Son can do nothing unless he sees the father doing it.
Thus the moment we read that the Son draws all men to himself, we know that the father is the one doing the drawiung though the Son.....

Case-closed!
But you haven't given me a single verse--not one--that says that the Father draws ALL to Christ. Yet you believe this. Why?

[Libby]

I won't further disrupt discussions on this on the board, James, trying to address your nonsense. You are on ignore.

[James Banta]

I won't further disrupt discussions on this on the board, James, trying to address your nonsense. You are on ignore.

I hope that means you stop attacking the church in those that believe that God is sovereign. You had no need to tell me you put me on ignore just do it.. It isn't a punishment it's a relief.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

I won't further disrupt discussions on this on the board, James, trying to address your nonsense. You are on ignore.>....just say the word love...just say the word....

[Libby]

Thanks, Alan.

At some point, you just have to give it over to God, y/k?

[neverending]

I won't further disrupt discussions on this on the board, James, trying to address your nonsense. You are on ignore.

Guess I am too since you ignored my comment from this morning. You don't seem to ignore the guys though.

[Libby]

I'm going to ignore anything that is of a personal nature. If you want to discuss the topic, that's fine.

[Libby]

Alan, you posted Romans 1:20 on the other thread....I'm going to bring it here, if you don't mind?

"For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

This verse made me ask exactly "HOW" God draws people to him. If this verse is any indication, nature or His Creation, is one way he draws us. If that is one way He draws us (and it seems to be true, according to this scripture), then He has to be drawing ALL people....as we all have ability to see the glories of His Creation all around us!

[Billyray]

Alan, you posted Romans 1:20 on the other thread....I'm going to bring it here, if you don't mind?

"For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

This verse made me ask exactly "HOW" God draws people to him. If this verse is any indication, nature or His Creation, is one way he draws us. If that is one way He draws us (and it seems to be true, according to this scripture), then He has to be drawing ALL people....as we all have ability to see the glories of His Creation all around us!
Everyone is given some commandments to live by. We talked a little bit about this in another thread that we all have a basis sense of right and wrong. Also this verse teaches us that there is evidence--for every single person--that there is a God, "being understood from what has been made". In order for God to justly punish someone that person has to be aware of commandments and then break them. If you look at Romans 1:20 this isn't speaking about God drawing men to Christ but rather that every single person knows that there is a God and has an inner knowledge of basic right and wrong and when they break these commandments they are without excuse.

[Libby]

Everyone is given some commandments to live by. We talked a little bit about this in another thread that we all have a basis sense of right and wrong. Also this verse teaches us that there is evidence--for every single person--that there is a God, "being understood from what has been made". In order for God to justly punish someone that person has to be aware of commandments and then break them. If you look at Romans 1:20 this isn't speaking about God drawing men to Christ but rather that every single person knows that there is a God and has an inner knowledge of basic right and wrong and when they break these commandments they are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

This verse makes it sound like, perhaps, they were drawn (they knew of God), but they were those who rejected Him.

[Billyray]

This verse makes it sound like, perhaps, they were drawn (they knew of God), but they were those who rejected Him.
Everyone is given basic commandments and everyone deep down knows that there is a God yet despite this we learn in John 6 that man can't come unto Christ unless drawn by the Father.

Do you think that it is remotely possible that you have this preconceived idea that God draws every single person to Christ and you are searching for any possible shred of evidence to support your preconceived idea AND ignoring the verses that speak directly about those who are drawn by the Father to Christ?

[Billyray]

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

This verse makes it sound like, perhaps, they were drawn (they knew of God), but they were those who rejected Him.
But these verses are speaking about people who have rejected God--not about people being drawn to Him.

[Libby]

But these verses are speaking about people who have rejected God--not about people being drawn to Him.

Yes, that's right, but, first, they "knew God". Could they have known Him without ever, first, being drawn to Him? Isn't God using His creation to make us all aware of Him? Isn't that the beginning stages of His "drawing"...attracting us to Him?

I'm thinking that man is not even aware of God, until he starts drawing us. Some respond positively and come to Him. Others, even though they get a glimpse and know that He exists...for whatever reasons (their own desires), turn away from Him and go their own way.

[alanmolstad]

Alan, you posted Romans 1:20 on the other thread....I'm going to bring it here, if you don't mind?

!I never mind being quoted....however I must confess that I actually did not write the Bible.....:)

[alanmolstad]

god is drawing every single person ever born, to the cross...

thats is the reason for sending Christ into the world in the first place...

all men are drawn to the cross, for only at the cross will men find forgiveness.


In the life and resurrection of Christ, God is attracting all of humanity to himself.

[Libby]

I never mind being quoted....however I must confess that I actually did not write the Bible.....:)

Thanks for confirming that. ;-)

[Apologette]

Thanks for confirming that. ;-)

We're not here to discuss the Christian doctrine of election with a Campbellite and someone who has embraced the New Age. Why don't you guys take your love fest with Arminianism elsewhere?

[alanmolstad]

We're not here to discuss the Christian doctrine of election with a Campbellite and someone who has embraced the New Age. Why don't you guys take your love fest with Arminianism elsewhere?
You really do like to invent things for other people to believe dont you...

it must save time

[Apologette]

You really do like to invent things for other people to believe dont you...

it must save time

I just put up a new thread on Campbellism Enjoy!

[alanmolstad]

John 5:19
Jesus gave them this answer: "Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does

so according to this verse, can the son draw all men while the father is not drawing them also?


and the answer is - "I can of mine own self do nothing"

"I can of mine own self do nothing"

This is where we can KNOW that though the cross the Father is drawing all men to Himself....




Now Im not sure what the Calvinists are thinking?.......
Im not sure why when the topic comes up about the father reaching out to all people though the cross the average Calvinist has such a cow?

But it is a clear teaching of the New Testament that in Christ the Lord God was offering salvation to all people....

[The Pheonix]

I think that most--if not all--posters here on WM would agree that the Father draws men to Christ. But there seems be a consensus on this forum that God draws ALL men to Christ. I am one of the few that believes that the Father draws some--but not all--men to Christ. I am interested in finding out from those who believe that the Father draws ALL men to Christ what verses they are using to come to this conclusion.Why are you posting about the cult of Calvinism in the Mormon forum.

[alanmolstad]

Why are you posting about the cult of Calvinism in the Mormon forum.

When you get to know about old Billy, you start to see that with him EVERYTHING centers around his love of Calvinism....

Thus regardless of whatever topic he happens to be posting on you can trust that sooner or later that topic will see the shadow of Calvinism looming over it....

[alanmolstad]

I think the issue Billy had with people saying that "god draws all men" is that according to Billy, once God starts to draw you he is stuck and he has to also save you.

(in other words "in for a penny, in for a pound")

This puts Billy in a corner, for if he says "god draws all men" then he also has to say "All men are saved" and that he rejects.
This must be why Billy tries so hard to not have God drawing all men because it then lets God off the hook for not saving all men.