Salvation--is it only for those to obey the commandments perfectly?

[Billyray]

How many new translations are there exactly James? And haven't you noted difference between the translations using the older m****cripts than there is in the KJV?

Here is one site that compares the KJV to the NIV.

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/m-m.html

Here is an example of a change from one to the other.

Revelation 22:14, "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."
Revelation 22:14, "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city."

If I remember right, there is a discussion here somewhere discussing these very changes--was it you who used the NIV to defend against having to keep the commandments to be saved?

---I just found it. I was actually Billyray, using the NIV to discredit doctrine being argued for in the KJV. Namely that one must keep the commandments to be saved. Here is the exchange:

In order to show that I was trying to "discredit doctrine being argued for in the KJV" you have to show that the doctrine in question is actually taught in the KJV.

Does the KJV Bible teach that salvation is based on perfect obedience to the commandments?

[BigJulie]

In order to show that I was trying to "discredit doctrine being argued for in the KJV" you have to show that the doctrine in question is actually taught in the KJV.

Does the KJV Bible teach that salvation is based on perfect obedience to the commandments?

You are changing the goal posts here Billyray--it went from keeping the commandments to perfect obedience. I say it is possible to keep the commandments while not perfect. In fact, I would argue that Christ addresses this specifically with the teaching of repentance.

[Billyray]

You are changing the goal posts here Billyray--it went from keeping the commandments to perfect obedience. I say it is possible to keep the commandments while not perfect. In fact, I would argue that Christ addresses this specifically with the teaching of repentance.
Thanks for pointing out where you think that I misstated your position. That helps me better understand what you believe. I have listed below your position. If what I have written is incorrect please let me know.

1. Salvation is not based on obedience to the commandments.
2. Salvation is based on continuous repentance.

[BigJulie]

Thanks for pointing out where you think that I misstated your position. That helps me better understand what you believe. I have listed below your position. If what I have written is incorrect please let me know.

1. Salvation is not based on obedience to the commandments.
2. Salvation is based on continuous repentance.

You keep making either or statement when there should be none. How about

1. Salvation is based on faith in Jesus Christ.
2. Christ provides both the means and ability to follow Him through the atonement.
3. Christ asks us to keep His commandments, but knowing we will fall short, provides for us a way to continue to follow him via repentance. Therefore, he asks us to repent and follow Him.
4. Repentance thereby is also a commandment. We keep his commandments by doing our best and then repenting when we fall short. In this way, we keep his commandments and thereby show faith in Him.

[James Banta]

You keep making either or statement when there should be none. How about

1. Salvation is based on faith in Jesus Christ.
2. Christ provides both the means and ability to follow Him through the atonement.
3. Christ asks us to keep His commandments, but knowing we will fall short, provides for us a way to continue to follow him via repentance. Therefore, he asks us to repent and follow Him.
4. Repentance thereby is also a commandment. We keep his commandments by doing our best and then repenting when we fall short. In this way, we keep his commandments and thereby show faith in Him.

We either repent or we don't.. There is no sin in the life of a Christian. Jesus died for all our sin.. We repent and turn from it we like Paul never sin again.. It is sin that lives in us that sins I have asked you to read that p***age before I guess you thought it was just anti-mormon trash.. It isn't is is the word of God through Paul the Apostle.

Romans 7:17
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

IHS jim

[BigJulie]

We either repent or we don't.. There is no sin in the life of a Christian. Jesus died for all our sin.. We repent and turn from it we like Paul never sin again.. It is sin that lives in us that sins I have asked you to read that p***age before I guess you thought it was just anti-mormon trash.. It isn't is is the word of God through Paul the Apostle.

Romans 7:17
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

IHS jim

I think that there is a difference between the LDS faith and others---we see repentance as on-going rather than a one-time shot. We believe when we take the sacrament, we repent anew as well as regularly throughout our lives.

[Billyray]

You keep making either or statement when there should be none. How about

1. Salvation is based on faith in Jesus Christ.
2. Christ provides both the means and ability to follow Him through the atonement.
3. Christ asks us to keep His commandments, but knowing we will fall short, provides for us a way to continue to follow him via repentance. Therefore, he asks us to repent and follow Him.
4. Repentance thereby is also a commandment. We keep his commandments by doing our best and then repenting when we fall short. In this way, we keep his commandments and thereby show faith in Him.
OK so let me see if I understand your position.

1. Obedience to the commandments is not a requirement for salvation
2. Repentance is a requirement for salvation

[BigJulie]

OK so let me see if I understand your position.

1. Obedience to the commandments is not a requirement for salvation
2. Repentance is a requirement for salvation

Nope, I think if you just cut and paste what I have written in four simple lines, then you would have it straight.

This so much reminds me of the lawyers asking Christ--who is my neighbor? (In other words, they asked--"let me get this straight.")

[Billyray]

Nope, I think if you just cut and paste what I have written in four simple lines, then you would have it straight.

This so much reminds me of the lawyers asking Christ--who is my neighbor? (In other words, they asked--"let me get this straight.")
I thought that I had your position down but from your answer I guess I did not. Which one of the following (or both) are incorrect below?

1. Obedience to the commandments is not a requirement for salvation
2. Repentance is a requirement for salvation

[The Pheonix]

In order to show that I was trying to "discredit doctrine being argued for in the KJV" you have to show that the doctrine in question is actually taught in the KJV.

Does the KJV Bible teach that salvation is based on perfect obedience to the commandments?We are imperfect beings, made perfect through repentance and obedience...just as Christ did. Or do you think God gives commandments and the charge to "be Ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect" to mock us.

[Libby]

I think we are made perfect in Jesus Christ, but not through obedience (because we could not be perfectly obedient, and Christ did that for us), but we are made perfect in him by putting our faith in him and what he did for us.

[Billyray]

We are imperfect beings, made perfect through repentance and obedience...just as Christ did.
Do you believe that Christ needed to repent for sins that He committed?

[BigJulie]

I think we are made perfect in Jesus Christ, but not through obedience (because we could not be perfectly obedient, and Christ did that for us), but we are made perfect in him by putting our faith in him and what he did for us.

I see obedience the same way I see teaching a child to ride a bike. The child wants to ride, the parent wants to teach. So, the parent runs behind, tells the kid to peddle, when to break, what dangers to look for and keeps running behind. And the child who does well listens and trusts and does what the parent asks (the child shows faith that he can succeed with his parents help by doing what the parent asks...or obedience.) And the child falls and bumps and falls again, but trusts and obeys again. Then one day, the child looks back and he is riding with the parent smiling at him.

In this way, we are purified and perfected---line upon line, step by step.

[The Pheonix]

Do you believe that Christ needed to repent for sins that He committed?

No, I believe what Paul taught..."he learned obedience through the things that he suffered" and that "he became the author of our salvation".

[Billyray]

No, I believe what Paul taught..."he learned obedience through the things that he suffered" and that "he became the author of our salvation".
So you simply made an error when you said

We are imperfect beings, made perfect through repentance and obedience...just as Christ did.

[Billyray]

I see obedience the same way I see teaching a child to ride a bike. The child wants to ride, the parent wants to teach. So, the parent runs behind, tells the kid to peddle, when to break, what dangers to look for and keeps running behind. And the child who does well listens and trusts and does what the parent asks (the child shows faith that he can succeed with his parents help by doing what the parent asks...or obedience.) And the child falls and bumps and falls again, but trusts and obeys again. Then one day, the child looks back and he is riding with the parent smiling at him.

In this way, we are purified and perfected---line upon line, step by step.
But you never keep all of the commandments. Is that a fair ***essment of what you believe?

[Libby]

I see obedience the same way I see teaching a child to ride a bike. The child wants to ride, the parent wants to teach. So, the parent runs behind, tells the kid to peddle, when to break, what dangers to look for and keeps running behind. And the child who does well listens and trusts and does what the parent asks (the child shows faith that he can succeed with his parents help by doing what the parent asks...or obedience.) And the child falls and bumps and falls again, but trusts and obeys again. Then one day, the child looks back and he is riding with the parent smiling at him.

In this way, we are purified and perfected---line upon line, step by step.

Have you ever seen the video of the father who runs triathlons with his son, who has muscular dystrophy? Very inspiring!! I believe that is the true relationship we have with Jesus Christ. He is running the triathlon that we could not run (because of our sin nature). When we completely put our faith in him, we are like the son being carried by his father and winning the race, through HIS efforts, not our own.

[Libby]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBjR1-0GVkI

[BigJulie]

Have you ever seen the video of the father who runs triathlons with his son, who has muscular dystrophy? Very inspiring!! I believe that is the true relationship we have with Jesus Christ. He is running the triathlon that we could not run (because of our sin nature). When we completely put our faith in him, we are like the son being carried by his father and winning the race, through HIS efforts, not our own.

Yes, I agree that he does things we can not do for ourselves...but Christ asks us to take His yoke upon us---to do as He asks. While His burden was so much larger, He does ask us to obey Him. I do think we put in our own efforts...I have seen that really following Christ does take effort. While He makes the burden so much lighter, he still asks us to bear His yoke.

[James Banta]

No, I believe what Paul taught..."he learned obedience through the things that he suffered" and that "he became the author of our salvation".

That is what it says and so that is what the Holy Spirit said.. So in our minds we believe that Jesus being God had things to learn? he didn't know that Conforming to the Father's will was obedience? Hey I even know that and I am far from being God.. Don't you think this p***age then needs more review?

Could it be that Jesus wasn't just fully God but that He was fully man and in being so had to conform His humanity to the obedience that His divinity already possessed? So His humanity learned obedience even the obedience of all he suffered and in so doing became the author of How salvation would be gained? There is an answer to even your most puzzling questions. Those answers always center in Jesus.. We don't have to look any further than Him.. Remember the Bible does teach that Jesus is fully God and fully man.. There is no doubt that He is fully God. He is taught to be the eternal word of God incarnate (John 1:1-3, 14). He is called the Creator and head of the church (Colossians 1:15-20). Jesus can be seen as being fully man. He was conceived and born of a woman (Matthew 1:18-25). He thus had a human body. He experienced hunger, thirst and fatigue (Matt. 4:2; John 4:6; etc.). He suffered and died (John 19:34). He could be heard, seen and touched (1 John 1:1). He evidenced the emotional and intellectual qualities of a human being (see Matt. 26:37 and Mark 9:21). He is both fully man and fully God.. His humanity had to learn obedience and when it did he did become the author of our salvation.. IHS jim

[The Pheonix]

So you simply made an error when you said
No...as usual you misunderstand.

[Libby]

Yes, I agree that he does things we can not do for ourselves...but Christ asks us to take His yoke upon us---to do as He asks. While His burden was so much larger, He does ask us to obey Him. I do think we put in our own efforts...I have seen that really following Christ does take effort. While He makes the burden so much lighter, he still asks us to bear His yoke.

I agree that obedience is important, mainly, so that we are not disrespecting the cross, by continuing to lay sin at the feet of Jesus...and really we can only do that (obey), because of the Christ in us. But, our salvation has already been purchased (through Christ's Atonement) and we cannot really add to that. I believe it is complete and our works cannot/do not add to it. I think it's human nature to what to add to it, but really we cannot, which is why we needed Jesus, to begin with.

[Billyray]

No...as usual you misunderstand.
Here is your post.

]We are imperfect beings[/B], made perfect through repentance and obedience...just as Christ did. . .

[BigJulie]

I agree that obedience is important, mainly, so that we are not disrespecting the cross, by continuing to lay sin at the feet of Jesus...and really we can only do that (obey), because of the Christ in us. But, our salvation has already been purchased (through Christ's Atonement) and we cannot really add to that. I believe it is complete and our works cannot/do not add to it. I think it's human nature to what to add to it, but really we cannot, which is why we needed Jesus, to begin with.

Yes, our salvation has been purchased already. But this is where we differ as we recognize the degrees of glory (all which are part of salvation.)

[Billyray]

Yes, our salvation has been purchased already. But this is where we differ as we recognize the degrees of glory (all which are part of salvation.)
Can you show me in the Bible where it teaches that salvation means eternal separation from God the Father?

[BigJulie]

Can you show me in the Bible where it teaches that salvation means eternal separation from God the Father?

Well, as the three are One (Godhead)---then even if the Holy Ghost is there...there is no separation from God...according to you. His Spirit is present.

[Billyray]

Well, as the three are One (Godhead)---then even if the Holy Ghost is there...there is no separation from God...according to you. His Spirit is present.
Mormonism teaches polytheism and that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate and distinct gods (not to mention all of the other mormon gods like idols and unrighteous judges). In the Telestial Kingdom--which BigJ is calling salvation--there is eternal separation from God the Father. I would certainly like to know where eternal separation from God the Father is called salvation. Any verses to back you up on this one?

[BigJulie]

Mormonism teaches polytheism and that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate and distinct gods (not to mention all of the other mormon gods like idols and unrighteous judges). In the Telestial Kingdom--which BigJ is calling salvation--there is eternal separation from God the Father. I would certainly like to know where eternal separation from God the Father is called salvation. Any verses to back you up on this one?

Actually, what we preach is that all three are part of the Godhead. Who are other Mormon gods?

[Billyray]

Actually, what we preach is that all three are part of the Godhead. Who are other Mormon gods?
Really? Is that a new teaching that you are telling me about. I think you are trying to pull the wool over my eyes. Let's see.

LDS teachings
1. the father is a god and has a body of flesh and bones
2. the son is a god and has a body of flesh and bones
3. the holy ghost is a god and will someday receive a body of flesh and bones
4. each is a separate and distinct god
5. the unrighteous judges are separate gods
6. some lds will become gods

There are so many gods it is hard to keep them all straight. A truly polytheistic religion outside of Christianity.

[The Pheonix]

Can you show me in the Bible where it teaches that salvation means eternal separation from God the Father?No unclean thing can enter into...Got Bible, Billy?

[Billyray]

Yes, our salvation has been purchased already. But this is where we differ as we recognize the degrees of glory (all which are part of salvation.)
Can you show me in the Bible where it teaches that salvation means eternal separation from God the Father?

No unclean thing can enter into...Got Bible, Billy?
PaPa note sure how this addresses what BigJ said about mormon salvation. Could you take another look at the dialogue and give us some insight from the lds point of view why you guys believe that salvation includes those who go to the telestial kingdom which means that for these guys salvation = eternal separation from God the Father. Does the Bible teach that salvation = eternal separation from God the Father?

[The Pheonix]

Really? Is that a new teaching that you are telling me about. I think you are trying to pull the wool over my eyes. Let's see.

LDS teachings
1. the father is a god and has a body of flesh and bones
2. the son is a god and has a body of flesh and bones
3. the holy ghost is a god and will someday receive a body of flesh and bones
4. each is a separate and distinct god
5. the unrighteous judges are separate gods
6. some lds will become gods

There are so many gods it is hard to keep them all straight. A truly polytheistic religion outside of Christianity.She asked you to name them...do it, if you can.

[Billyray]

She asked you to name them...do it, if you can.

Really? Is that a new teaching that you are telling me about. I think you are trying to pull the wool over my eyes. Let's see.

LDS teachings
1. the father is a god and has a body of flesh and bones
2. the son is a god and has a body of flesh and bones
3. the holy ghost is a god and will someday receive a body of flesh and bones
4. each is a separate and distinct god
5. the unrighteous judges are separate gods
6. some lds will become gods

There are so many gods it is hard to keep them all straight. A truly polytheistic religion outside of Christianity.
7. Abraham
8. Isaac
9. Jacob
10. 12 Apostles.

[Libby]

No unclean thing can enter into...Got Bible, Billy?

We are made clean through the blood of Jesus Christ (not through our works).

Hebrews 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus

[RealFakeHair]

We are made clean through the blood of Jesus Christ (not through our works).

Hebrews 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus

Why Libby, finally, you hit the nail on the head, better stop now while you're ahead. lol

[Libby]

Why Libby, finally, you hit the nail on the head, better stop now while you're ahead. lol

RFH, are you trying to tell me to "go away"? :p lol

[The Pheonix]

We are made clean through the blood of Jesus Christ (not through our works).

Hebrews 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus
As I said at my mother's funeral...

"In the coming day, I shall feel the nail prints in his hands and in his feet and I shall wet his feet with my tears. But I will not know better then than I know now that he is God's almighty Son, and that salvation comes in and through his atoning sacrifice and in no other way".

Do you know who said this...It is a quote from his final address 5 days before he died?

[Libby]

As I said at my mother's funeral...

"In the coming day, I shall feel the nail prints in his hands and in his feet and I shall wet his feet with my tears. But I will not know better then than I know now that he is God's almighty Son, and that salvation comes in and through his atoning sacrifice and in no other way".

Do you know who said this...It is a quote from his final address 5 days before he died?

I've heard that before, but couldn't remember who said it. Bruce R. McConkie.

[James Banta]

Yes, our salvation has been purchased already. But this is where we differ as we recognize the degrees of glory (all which are part of salvation.)

Interesting Julie, Just what are we saved from? The Telestial kingdom? There Terrestrial Kingdom? The lower to divisions of the Celestial kingdom? Maybe outer darkness? We might be able to find some common ground as to what it means to be saved if we could figure out what the LDS teach that we are saved from.. Christian believe we are saved from the second death described in the Bible as the Lake of Fire.. IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

Yes, our salvation has been purchased already. But this is where we differ as we recognize the degrees of glory (all which are part of salvation.)

Well a half truth is still a lie.
LDSinc. Should quote Holy Bible Scripture, before trying to convince Christians there is more to Salvation.
BigJulie, I call you out! Where in the Holy Bible does it imply we can obtain (Salvations).
The Holy Bible only tells us of (Salvation).
Once again, lying for the LDSinc. lord does you no good.

[dberrie2000]

Really? Is that a new teaching that you are telling me about. I think you are trying to pull the wool over my eyes. Let's see.

LDS teachings
1. the father is a god and has a body of flesh and bones
2. the son is a god and has a body of flesh and bones
3. the holy ghost is a god and will someday receive a body of flesh and bones
4. each is a separate and distinct god
5. the unrighteous judges are separate gods
6. some lds will become gods

There are so many gods it is hard to keep them all straight. A truly polytheistic religion outside of Christianity.

Could anyone please relate to us what gods the LDS worship, pray to--or feel they are subject to--other than the Godhead(God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost)?

Could anyone tell us if they thought Paul was polytheistic?

2 Corinthians 4:4---King James Version (KJV)
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.



Definition of polytheism--Merriam Webster

: belief in or worship of more than one god

[alanmolstad]

The moment a religion attempts to tell you there actually are other gods.....( not just things that we call 'a god" like a TV show actor or a some other created person or thing) you are dealing with a false religion.....a CULT.


now sometimes the person trapped inside a CULT will try to defend their false religion, by saying "Although there are many gods, we only worship the Father" ...But they are still worshiping a false god anyway.

It does not matter they named their false god "Father"...or "Jesus" or "holy spirit"...etc.etc...
All you have to know is that they are lost, and are dead in their sins.....and unless they get out of that CULT they face eternal ****ation.

[dberrie2000]

The moment a religion attempts to tell you there actually are other gods.....( not just things that we call 'a god" like a TV show actor or a some other created person or thing) you are dealing with a false religion.....a CULT.

So--you believe Paul preached a false religion?

2 Corinthians 4:4--King James Version (KJV)
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

How about Christ?

John 10:34-36---King James Version (KJV)
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

The OT writers?

Psalm 82:1---King James Version (KJV)
1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

[hogan60]

if salvation is based on our obedience, then Christ died for nothing! Who Needs Him if we can do it ourselves?

[dberrie2000]

if salvation is based on our obedience, then Christ died for nothing! Who Needs Him if we can do it ourselves?

Hi Hogan--thanks for joining the discussion, we need more to join in here and discuss the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

As the scriptures testify to--obedience is required for His grace unto life:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

IOW--the scriptures are replete when testifying of the connection between our obedience and God's grace unto life--and we might want to get over that, if it seems a negative to us.

Personally, Hogan--I don't know where people get the idea God gives His salvational grace to anyone but those who obey Him:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9-King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Where do we find any doctrine in the Biblical NT which has man inheriting eternal lif without obedience to Christ--and walking in His light?

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

And how do we walk in His light, in the remission of sins?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

And to obey His commandments:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

The greatest lie satan has ever pawned upon mankind--is that they will enter into heaven independent of any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ.

As the scriptures testify to--if we are to saved--we will be saved by God's grace--and that grace unto life--as a personal reception-- goes to them which obey Him.

God's grace unto life--as a possibility--was made available to all men--through His Atonement, as a free gift to all men:

Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life

Just as in a university--an education is made available to all men--as a possibility.

To obtain the diploma--one must obey the criteria of the college.

Through the Atonement--all are offered eternal life--as a possibility. To obtain His grace unto life--as a PERSONAL RECEPTION--we must walk in His light--and do His work He has given us to do--as the above scriptures testify to--there is no back door to eternal life.

So--how do you fit the above scriptures into your theology?

[alanmolstad]

it must be nice to just keep posting the same stuff over and over again regardless of whom you are talking with or what topic you are talking about....

saves time....saves thinking of new stuff...

[dberrie2000]

it must be nice to just keep posting the same stuff over and over again regardless of whom you are talking with or what topic you are talking about....

saves time....saves thinking of new stuff...

The Bible doesn't contain any new stuff for us. It's the "same stuff" over and over.

Care to address the above scriptures--or the points of concern?

[alanmolstad]

this is the point of the story...


When Mormons try to quote the story they always make sure to stop quoting the story before the story ends.
They do this because the first part of ther story supports their views, but the 2nd part of the story points totally against their views.

The first part of the story has the man ask Jesus what to do to have life?
Jesus answers by listing the commandments.

This is where the Mormons stop quoting the story.
To the Mormon, this part of the story agrees with their concept of 'works".
They stop quoting the story at this point because they simply dont know what to do with the next part of the story.


But if you keep quoting the story, what you see Jesus say totally undercuts what Jesus had said in the first part of his answer to the man.

The man responds to Jesus and tells Jesus that he has always kept the commandments.
This means that the man has done the very thing Jesus had pointed to that brings life.

Jesus does not disagree with the man's claim to have always kept the commandments.

But then Jesus pulls the rug out of the whole idea that 'works' count to salvation.

Jesus tells the man that even after keeping all the listed commandments, he still lacked life.

Then Jesus tells the man that he has to 'follow me" .


So once again it all comes down to people following Jesus.....to believe in him....to have faith.

Not by works.....


For we are saved only by grace though FAITH, and Not By Works!


Not by faith

Not by works

Not by faith and works

Not by works and faith.


But only by grace though faith, and not by works at all.....

[dberrie2000]

this is the point of the story...

When Mormons try to quote the story they always make sure to stop quoting the story before the story ends.

The story never ends--the Biblical text is an eternal truth.

So--care to address the scriptures?

1 Peter 4:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

[disciple]

The story never ends--the Biblical text is an eternal truth.

So--care to address the scriptures?

1 Peter 4:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Hi DB,

Just a comment, the judgments on the house of God are Fatherly chastisements and are different from
God's judgment on the world and the condemnation that goes with it.

"But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord that we may not be condemned with the world." 1 Cor. 11:32

[BigJulie]

Hi DB,

Just a comment, the judgments on the house of God are Fatherly chastisements and are different from
God's judgment on the world and the condemnation that goes with it.

"But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord that we may not be condemned with the world." 1 Cor. 11:32


So, you have spoken of "rewards" for the righteous and now chastisement for the righteous. What is this based on?

And how do you see condemnation?


Mat 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater ****ation.

How does one receive a "great ****ation"? What does this mean to you?

[alanmolstad]

some receive many stripes, some few.

some are seated at a higher seat, some are moved to a lower.

[dberrie2000]

some receive many stripes, some few. some are seated at a higher seat, some are moved to a lower.

I believe you are right--the difference between eternal life and ****ation might be the difference between a higher and lower seat:

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

[dberrie2000]

Hi DB,

Just a comment, the judgments on the house of God are Fatherly chastisements and are different from
God's judgment on the world and the condemnation that goes with it.

Hi Disciple:

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Acts 10:34-35--King James Version (KJV)
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.