Does the Bible teach that there are many gods (polytheism)

[Billyray]

So, yes--God is God of gods.

Mormons believe in many gods (polytheism) whereas Christianity and Judaism teaches that there is only one God (monotheism). This is a huge difference in our beliefs and one that places mormonism outside of Christianity. It would be nice if lds could make their case using the Bible so we can at least see why they believe the way that they do.

What is the basis for believing that the Bible teaches polytheism?

[BigJulie]

Mormons believe in many gods (polytheism) whereas Christianity and Judaism teaches that there is only one God (monotheism). This is a huge difference in our beliefs and one that places mormonism outside of Christianity. It would be nice if lds could make their case using the Bible so we can at least see why they believe the way that they do.

What is the basis for believing that the Bible teaches polytheism?

And here you go again. Mormons believe what the Bible teaches, that God is a God of gods. And even you Billyray admit that these "gods" are rulers that God has called and appointed---unless you believe it means God is "God of idols"---is that what you said you believed?

[Billyray]

And here you go again. Mormons believe what the Bible teaches, that God is a God of gods. And even you Billyray admit that these "gods" are rulers that God has called and appointed---unless you believe it means God is "God of idols"---is that what you said you believed?
Fair enough you believe that the Bible teaches polytheism--I understand that part. The part that I don't understand about what you believe is who are these "gods". You said that a human ruler is a god but could you be a little bit more specific as to who exactly is a god?

[BigJulie]

Fair enough you believe that the Bible teaches polytheism--I understand that part. The part that I don't understand about what you believe is who are these "gods". You said that a human ruler is a god but could you be a little bit more specific as to who exactly is a god?

No, I don't believe the Bible teaches polytheism. I think you believe that to acknowledge that "gods" as used in the Bible (to even mean more than just idols) means that one is polytheist.

But you never answered---do you think the Bible should read that God is "God of idols"?

Exactly, we have examples in the Bible--Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The 12 apostles. The leaders God called or foreordained and whom he tells will sit as judges as well in the next life.

[Billyray]

No, I don't believe the Bible teaches polytheism.

Let's start with this one first so I can better understand what you believe.

You say that the Bible does not teach polytheism. But you have said that the Bible teaches that there are many gods.




http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/polytheism

Merriam-Webster Dictionary

POLYTHEISM
"belief in or worship of more than one god"




Since you believe in many gods by definition this is polytheism.

[Billyray]

Exactly, we have examples in the Bible--Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The 12 apostles. The leaders God called or foreordained and whom he tells will sit as judges as well in the next life.
GODS (per BigJ)

1. Religious leaders
2. ?
3. ?

I am trying to understand who you believe are gods. Can you give me a list of the who these gods are that are taught in the Bible?

[Billyray]

You believe that children of god are gods and I am a literal spirit child of god and his wife. So why am I not a god?

In this context, we were talking of those who are called to be leaders. You are not.

Do you believe they were appointed by God?


ESV Study Bible

". . .82:1–4 The Task of the “Gods.” The first section gives the *** description of human rulers (the gods), especially those who rule God's covenant people:they are to give justice to the weak and the fatherless, and rescue the weak and the needy*. *. *. from the hand of the wicked (vv. 3–4). Far too often, however, they judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked (i. e., people who take the lead in opposing God's purpose and oppressing others). The words of the psalm do not specify whether the rulers are Israelites, or Gentiles ruling Israel as a subject state (as in the Babylonian or Persian Empires). Both the ideal Davidic king in Psalm 72 and the ideal Gentile ruler in Prov. 31:1–9 are called to protect the powerless from those who would oppress them. Certainly the people of God should aim to embody this most clearly. . ."



As noted above from the ESV Study Bible we don't know if these unrighteous rulers were Israelites or Gentiles. Do you believe that if these guys were Gentile rulers that they are gods?


This was posted in another thread but it is relevant for discussion in this thread. So I will ask my question agree for you in this thread since you haven't answered it yet in the other one.

As noted above from the ESV Study Bible we don't know if these unrighteous rulers were Israelites or Gentiles. Do you believe that if these guys were Gentile rulers that they are gods?

[BigJulie]

This was posted in another thread but it is relevant for discussion in this thread. So I will ask my question agree for you in this thread since you haven't answered it yet in the other one.

As noted above from the ESV Study Bible we don't know if these unrighteous rulers were Israelites or Gentiles. Do you believe that if these guys were Gentile rulers that they are gods?
Oh, you think that God is calling gentile leaders "god" and children of the Most High? Interesting.

[Billyray]

Oh, you think that God is calling gentile leaders "god" and children of the Most High? Interesting.
ESV Study Bible

". . .82:1–4 The Task of the “Gods.” The first section gives the *** description of human rulers (the gods), especially those who rule God's covenant people:they are to give justice to the weak and the fatherless, and rescue the weak and the needy*. *. *. from the hand of the wicked (vv. 3–4). Far too often, however, they judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked (i. e., people who take the lead in opposing God's purpose and oppressing others). The words of the psalm do not specify whether the rulers are Israelites, or Gentiles ruling Israel as a subject state (as in the Babylonian or Persian Empires). Both the ideal Davidic king in Psalm 72 and the ideal Gentile ruler in Prov. 31:1–9 are called to protect the powerless from those who would oppress them. Certainly the people of God should aim to embody this most clearly. . ."

According to the above note from the ESV Study Bible--"The words of the psalm do not specify whether the rulers are Israelites, or Gentiles ruling Israel as a subject state. If these were Gentile rulers in this section of scripture God is referring to them as "gods".

So back to my question to you--Do you believe that if these guys were Gentile rulers that they are gods?

[BigJulie]

ESV Study Bible

". . .82:1–4 The Task of the “Gods.” The first section gives the *** description of human rulers (the gods), especially those who rule God's covenant people:they are to give justice to the weak and the fatherless, and rescue the weak and the needy*. *. *. from the hand of the wicked (vv. 3–4). Far too often, however, they judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked (i. e., people who take the lead in opposing God's purpose and oppressing others). The words of the psalm do not specify whether the rulers are Israelites, or Gentiles ruling Israel as a subject state (as in the Babylonian or Persian Empires). Both the ideal Davidic king in Psalm 72 and the ideal Gentile ruler in Prov. 31:1–9 are called to protect the powerless from those who would oppress them. Certainly the people of God should aim to embody this most clearly. . ."

According to the above note from the ESV Study Bible--"The words of the psalm do not specify whether the rulers are Israelites, or Gentiles ruling Israel as a subject state. If these were Gentile rulers in this section of scripture God is referring to them as "gods".

So back to my question to you--Do you believe that if these guys were Gentile rulers that they are gods?

So you do. No, I don't think he was speaking to gentiles at the time. I think it was written for the Jews and it was their book to read.

But if you read it that way---then that backs the argument that all are children of God and not just those who are His through the covenant:


Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

[Billyray]

So you do. No, I don't think he was speaking to gentiles at the time. I think it was written for the Jews and it was their book to read.

Whether they were Israelite or Gentile rulers doesn't change anything from my perspective.

So how about an answer to my question. Do you believe that if these guys were Gentile rulers that they are gods?

[BigJulie]

Whether they were Israelite or Gentile rulers doesn't change anything from my perspective.

So how about an answer to my question. Do you believe that if these guys were Gentile rulers that they are gods?

Once again: No, I don't think he was speaking to gentiles at the time. I think it was written for the Jews and it was their book to read. So, while you don't think it matters, I do. You answer your own question---if they are gentiles, why does God call them "gods" and "children of the Most High"---since you are the one who believes that they were gentiles---this really becomes a question for you to answer.

[Billyray]

Once again: No, I don't think he was speaking to gentiles at the time. I think it was written for the Jews and it was their book to read. So, while you don't think it matters, I do. You answer your own question---if they are gentiles, why does God call them "gods" and "children of the Most High"---since you are the one who believes that they were gentiles---this really becomes a question for you to answer.
I am trying to get you to tell me who are all of these "gods" so I can better understand your beliefs. I understand that you think that these guys were Israelites and not Gentiles but if you noticed I asked you IF they were would you then consider them to be "gods". But I see that you are not going to answer that one. Fair enough. So here is where we stand so far as noted below. Is this all of the "gods" or are there others?

GODS (per BigJ)

1. Religious leaders
2. ?
3. ?

[BigJulie]

I am trying to get you to tell me who are all of these "gods" so I can better understand your beliefs. I understand that you think that these guys were Israelites and not Gentiles but if you noticed I asked you IF they were would you then consider them to be "gods". But I see that you are not going to answer that one. Fair enough. So here is where we stand so far as noted below. Is this all of the "gods" or are there others?

GODS (per BigJ)

1. Religious leaders
2. ?
3. ?

I have explained this to you already. You believe that these "gods" are Gentiles. I have answered you many times. I said they are Jews. You asks for more. I gave you names such as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Now you want me to answer it based on your belief that they are Gentiles--but that is YOUR belief. So, now you get to answer my question---why do you think God calls Gentile leaders "gods" and "children of the Most High"---I have answered, why do you ignore my question?

[Billyray]

I have explained this to you already. You believe that these "gods" are Gentiles.

My personal belief is that the unrighteous judges spoken about in Psalm 82 are Israelites but that is not what I was asking you--rather I was asking you IF they were Gentiles would you say that they are "gods". But you didn't want to answer that. Fair enough.



I have answered you many times. I said they are Jews. You asks for more. I gave you names such as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Now you want me to answer it based on your belief that they are Gentiles--but that is YOUR belief. So, now you get to answer my question---why do you think God calls Gentile leaders "gods" and "children of the Most High"---I have answered, why do you ignore my question?
BigJ you claim that the Bible teaches that there are many "gods" I am simply trying to get you to tell me who are all of these "gods".
GODS (per BigJ)

1. Religious leaders
2. ?
3. ?

Are there any more or is that it?

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE=Billyray;157372]My personal belief is that the unrighteous judges spoken about in Psalm 82 are Israelites but that is not what I was asking you--rather I was asking you IF they were Gentiles would you say that they are "gods". But you didn't want to answer that. Fair enough. Because you gave me the ESV belief that they were possibly Gentiles. I am curious why you won't answer if the ESV believes that, then how do you interpret Psalms 82. But you didn't answer that.


BigJ you claim that the Bible teaches that there are many "gods" I am simply trying to get you to tell me who are all of these "gods".
GODS (per BigJ)

1. Religious leaders
2. ?
3. ?

Are there any more or is that it? I don't "claim" that it does, it just does. It states God is God of gods. Christ calls the unrighteous leaders gods. As I have answered you what I think these "gods" are that the Bible speaks of, why don't you answer me. You have said that they are idols. You have said that they are unrighteous leaders. Do you think that they are also righteous leaders such as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the 12 apostles? (As I have told you I believe--do you agree with me on that?)

[Billyray]

Because you gave me the ESV belief that they were possibly Gentiles. I am curious why you won't answer if the ESV believes that, then how do you interpret Psalms 82. But you didn't answer that.



ESV Study Bible

". . .82:1–4 The Task of the “Gods.” The first section gives the *** description of human rulers (the gods), especially those who rule God's covenant people:they are to give justice to the weak and the fatherless, and rescue the weak and the needy*. *. *. from the hand of the wicked (vv. 3–4). Far too often, however, they judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked (i. e., people who take the lead in opposing God's purpose and oppressing others). The words of the psalm do not specify whether the rulers are Israelites, or Gentiles ruling Israel as a subject state (as in the Babylonian or Persian Empires). Both the ideal Davidic king in Psalm 72 and the ideal Gentile ruler in Prov. 31:1–9 are called to protect the powerless from those who would oppress them. Certainly the people of God should aim to embody this most clearly. . ."


Here is the quote again--perhaps you misread it. It doesn't say one way or the other. I am the one who asked you IF they were Gentiles would these unrighteous judges be "gods". So I take it that your answer would be no?

[Billyray]

. . .I don't "claim" that it does, it just does. It states God is God of gods. . .
Which is what I am trying to get to the bottom of and who you believe these "gods" are. Thus far you have said that the "gods" are unrighteous judges and that is it. You mentioned Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the 12 apostles but I haven't seen that you said that they were also gods. BigJ help me understand what you actually believe.

[Billyray]

You have given me the following examples for the "gods" that you are speaking about

1. Unrighteous judges
2. Idols

So far the "gods" that you have given me are not that God like.

Could you define "gods" for me?

[BigJulie]

You have given me the following examples for the "gods" that you are speaking about

1. Unrighteous judges
2. Idols

So far the "gods" that you have given me are not that God like.

Could you define "gods" for me?

Actually, I think that was the definition you gave me---unless you think my answer of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob fit the definition of "unrighteous leaders" or "idols". Man Billyray, I have at least attempted to answer your questions even if you have ignored them. But you make no attempt to even try to answer mine. No more, until you answer mine.

[Billyray]

Actually, I think that was the definition you gave me---unless you think my answer of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob fit the definition of "unrighteous leaders" or "idols".
I am asking you for your definition of "gods" since you are the one who believes that the Bible teaches polytheism.

I am not sure why you brought up Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob since you have not even claimed that they are gods--unless I overlooked it in one of your posts.

[BigJulie]

Where does it say that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are gods?

You have convinced me that you do not read my answers. You asked specifically who I thought "gods" might refer to as in Psalms 82 and in God being God of gods.

[BigJulie]

No, I don't believe the Bible teaches polytheism. I think you believe that to acknowledge that "gods" as used in the Bible (to even mean more than just idols) means that one is polytheist.

But you never answered---do you think the Bible should read that God is "God of idols"?

Exactly, we have examples in the Bible--Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The 12 apostles. The leaders God called or foreordained and whom he tells will sit as judges as well in the next life.

Here, read this again. And if you do not answer my question, do not expect a reply.

[Billyray]

But you make no attempt to even try to answer mine. No more, until you answer mine.
But this thread is about the reason that you believe that the Bible teaches polytheism. I don't believe that the Bible teaches polytheism so I am not sure why you think my input would help figure out why you believe the Bible supports polytheism.

[Billyray]

Here, read this again. And if you do not answer my question, do not expect a reply.

But you never answered---do you think the Bible should read that God is "God of idols"?

Actually I have answered this question several times. But I am more than happy to answer this one again for you. God is God over everything including idols and unrighteous judges.

[BigJulie]

Actually I have answered this question several times. But I am more than happy to answer this one again for you. God is God over everything including idols and unrighteous judges.

And why do you think that in Psalms 82, it also says 'and children of the Most High"---do you then see these unrighteous judges as children of the Most High?

[Billyray]

And why do you think that in Psalms 82, it also says 'and children of the Most High"---do you then see these unrighteous judges as children of the Most High?
Yes it says that these unrighteous judges are "sons of the Most High Nevertheless you will die like men, And fall like any one of the princes. Arise, O God, judge the earth!"

So far you have given me unrighteous judges and false idols as "gods"and that this is the basis thus far for the Bible supporting polytheism. Are there any other gods that you would like to add?

[BigJulie]

Yes it says that these unrighteous judges are "sons of the Most High Nevertheless you will die like men, And fall like any one of the princes. Arise, O God, judge the earth!" So, you see unrighteous judges as "children" of the most high. How do you reconcile that?

You also gave an example of the ESV that states that these are possibly Gentiles. Do you disagree with the ESV on this one?



So far you have given me unrighteous judges and false idols as "gods"and that this is the basis thus far for the Bible supporting polytheism. Are there any other gods that you would like to add? Actually, that is the answers you keep giving. Are you ignoring my Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, etc. answer. Wow, Billyray, are you reading my answers or not?

[Billyray]

So, you see unrighteous judges as "children" of the most high. How do you reconcile that?

How I reconcile it is that these are unrighteous judges who are referred to as "gods" and "children of the most high". ESV Study Bible "82:1–4 The Task of the “Gods.” The first section gives the *** description of human rulers (the gods), especially those who rule God's covenant people:they are to give justice to the weak and the fatherless, and rescue the weak and the needy*. *. *. from the hand of the wicked (vv. 3–4). Far too often, however, they judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked (i. e., people who take the lead in opposing God's purpose and oppressing others)."

[Billyray]

Are you ignoring my Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, etc. answer. Wow, Billyray, are you reading my answers or not?
Which post did you say that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are gods? Perhaps I missed that one so either link it or give me the post number.

[BigJulie]

Which post did you say that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are gods? Perhaps I missed that one so either link it or give me the post number.

Post #4--I said that this is whom God calls gods...leaders whom He foreordained to be rulers.

I guess "Christian" gods are idols and gentile leaders and unrighteous judges. Wow--did not know that.

[Billyray]

Post #4--I said that this is whom God calls gods...leaders whom He foreordained to be rulers.

BigJ's list of gods taught in the Bible
1. Unrighteous judges in Psalm 82
2. Abraham
3. Isaac
4. Jacob
5. 12 apostles


Any other "gods" to add to this list?

Can you give me the verses in the Bible that you are using to substantiate that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the 12 apostles are "gods"?

[Billyray]

I guess "Christian" gods are idols and gentile leaders and unrighteous judges. Wow--did not know that.
Perhaps you forgot that Christians are monotheistic not polytheistic like the mormons.

[James Banta]

Post #4--I said that this is whom God calls gods...leaders whom He foreordained to be rulers.

I guess "Christian" gods are idols and gentile leaders and unrighteous judges. Wow--did not know that.

Yes Julie the leaders and judges of the people are called elohim.. So were the idols of the peoples of the land.. The Church agrees with The Lord (YHWH) that He is our Elohim.. We (the Church) look for a God other than the one true God as being our Lord.. Unless you deny the deity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit you would be in agreement with Joseph Smith that you have three Gods, not with Jesus who confirmed that the Lord our God is one Lord (Mark 12:29)..

You have come a little way in understanding that the kind of elohim men can be is to be a judge over the people.. Still these are never Gods like Jesus is God.. They all have died like men.. Why? because they are MEN.. The meaning of Psalm 82 must agree with Isaiah 43:10.. One can't supersede the other. Since Isaiah is so pragmatic the only way to make Psalm 82 God's truth agree without abandoning is to understabd that elohims are any person in authority, or any idol that is worshiped falsely by men.. Christians don't deny these facts we accept them for how they are taught not just is one p***age of the Bible but in the whole of scripture.. IHS jim

[Gary_Biblelover]

No one can get around Isaiah 43. God's word cannot be avoided, ignored, nor refuted. When God speaks he doesn't change his mind, and since he is not a man, he cannot lie.

10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. 11 I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour. 12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, that I am God. 13 Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?

Gary

[Libby]

Yes...that's a powerful set of verses.

[Gary_Biblelover]

Yes...that's a powerful set of verses.

Indeed Libby, and just those two verses totally blast LDS claims of multiple gods period.

[Libby]

Indeed Libby, and just those two verses totally blast LDS claims of multiple gods period.

You would think so! I remember Isaiah 44:6...

"Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God"

hitting me like a ton of bricks.

But, the LDS apologists have, supposed, "answers" for everything...

[Gary_Biblelover]

You would think so! I remember Isaiah 44:6...

"Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God"

hitting me like a ton of bricks.

But, the LDS apologists have, supposed, "answers" for everything...

Uh-huh. Even when they make no sense. I like something I heard Dr. Martin say on a video. He said that no one with a good working knowledge of the Bible could ever be in a cult. Oh almost forgot Libby, how about the references to "God our savior" or savior God? wow that speaks volumes in those few words, eh?

[RealFakeHair]

Uh-huh. Even when they make no sense. I like something I heard Dr. Martin say on a video. He said that no one with a good working knowledge of the Bible could ever be in a cult. Oh almost forgot Libby, how about the references to "God our savior" or savior God? wow that speaks volumes in those few words, eh?

Like Libby, said, LDSinc. Has answers for everything,

[Phoenix]

Indeed Libby, and just those two verses totally blast LDS claims of multiple gods period.

Only on the most superficial, and therefore incorrect, level. To real Bible scholars, who have done real research into the history of Israel's theology, it's your theory that gets blasted out of the water. Totally. Do you you need some help locating such research?

[Phoenix]

Like Libby, said, LDSinc. Has answers for everything,

And unlike ANTI-LDS, Inc., the answers are CORRECT. :)

[Apologette]

And why do you think that in Psalms 82, it also says 'and children of the Most High"---do you then see these unrighteous judges as children of the Most High?

Since when do real gods die as men?

[Apologette]

And unlike ANTI-LDS, Inc., the answers are CORRECT. :)

Papa? You know in your heart they are not.

[Gary_Biblelover]

Like Libby, said, LDSinc. Has answers for everything,

Yup, I guess even wrong answers are better than no answers to them :)

[Gary_Biblelover]

Only on the most superficial, and therefore incorrect, level. To real Bible scholars, who have done real research into the history of Israel's theology, it's your theory that gets blasted out of the water. Totally. Do you you need some help locating such research?

Nope I think I have pretty much had it all expressed to me, thanks for asking. Until one understands who God is he cannot be saved. All I want is to help more people understand and I have another new thread I am about to start that might be of interest to you. (no spoilers tho ;) )

[Libby]

Since when do real gods die as men?

Yes, I was looking at those verses just this evening, because Richard brought them up in a conversation we were having and they really don't mean that we will become as God, Himself.

Psalms 5 They do not know nor do they understand; They walk about in darkness; All the foundations of the earth are shaken. 6 I said, "You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High. 7 "Nevertheless you will die like men And fall like any one of the princes."…

[Libby]

Papa? You know in your heart they are not.

He is not Papa. The Pheonix is Papa.

[Phoenix]

He is not Papa. The Pheonix is Papa.

I believe that is correct. But I realize the similar screen names are confusing. Just a coincidence, as far as I know.

[Libby]

I believe that is correct. But I realize the similar screen names are confusing. Just a coincidence, as far as I know.

Yes, it is a little confusing.

[alanmolstad]

The basic problem is......Failure to define your terms.




Thats what drives these types of endless debates.

People think a word means something all the time to everyone, but clearly that is not the case here.


An example:..." polytheism"
To the Christian,m the term " polytheism" means to believe that there are many gods.
To the Mormon it seems to mean to believe in many gods.


See the slight difference?



Its a small difference in how the Christian understands the term compared to how the Mormon understands the term.





The Christian looks at the teachings of Mormonism , and how they clearly teach that there are many gods, and that a person can become a god, and so this means that the Mormon clearly is teaching polytheism.
its so clear to the Christian , that its Case-Closed...
There just is no way to escape it....Mormons teach polytheism, and polytheism is evil, and so Mormons are evil.


But to the Mormons, they look at it differently.
The Mormon thinks they do not teach polytheism because while they do believe that there are other gods, they yet claim to only worship one god.

Thus they claim to be worshiping only one god....



This is why the debate needs to do as Walter Martin taught, and hold off arguing over things until you define your terms first...