Why Mormonism

[Christodoulos]

Can someone give me the compelling reason for someone to become a Mormon.

What is the main draw that Mormonism offers?

I've known many Mormons and I've yet to figure it out .

Please be specific and clear and concise. thanks.

[Phoenix]

Can someone give me the compelling reason for someone to become a Mormon.

What is the main draw that Mormonism offers?
A more correct description of the path that leads to eternal life, and a more correct explanation of the kind of personality that God has.


I've known many Mormons and I've yet to figure it out .
Did you ask those many Mormons your question? Did you check the LDS website?

[Christodoulos]

A more correct description of the path that leads to eternal life, and a more correct explanation of the kind of personality that God has.


Did you ask those many Mormons your question? Did you check the LDS website?

I was actually hoping to learn more. ..

I appreciate the response ,but that doesn't tell me more or anything, I didn't know..

All denominations make the same pitch. What I was asking for is what exactly do the Mormons offer other

than do others. What is the more correct description of the path leading to eternal life that Mormons are offering? Why is it correct?
What makes it correct?
And what exactly is the correct explanation of God's personality? See, if I knew this ,or if you could tell me in advance, then I could decide to join the Mormons or not.

And those Mormons I knew made similar statements and they told me to check out this or that.. no help!

[Phoenix]

I was actually hoping to learn more. ..
You could learn a lot more (if you really cared enough about getting those answers) to put forth the minimal effort of going to lds.org or mormon.org, or calling the toll-free number to request that missionaries take the time to spend 5 to 10 visits of 1-2 hours each, and listen to your questions in detail, and answer them in detail, face to face.


I appreciate the response ,but that doesn't tell me more or anything, I didn't know..
How was I supposed to know what you already knew and didn't know? You asked a broad question, and I gave you a broad answer.


All denominations make the same pitch.
I am not sure that is true. In my experience, some of today's denominations don't make such claims. Instead, they have joined an unwritten "truce" to not make such pitches. The Catholic Church stands out as one that historically claims to be
the only authorized church, and also the one with the most correct doctrines. The LDS church similarly stands out.


What I was asking for is what exactly do the Mormons offer other
than do others.
The LDS church offers the way to more happiness, joy, and peace to your soul than any other church can offer. One specific doctrine in that regard is the doctrine that people who want their marriages to last beyond death, have the potential to make it so. Another is the doctrine that the spirits of all humans are God's offspring, and therefore have the potential to grow up to be like He is. These doctrines are available because of another LDS doctrine that stands out--the doctrine that prophets and revelations exist in our day because God has not stopped revealing important info to the world regarding the path to eternal life, and how to follow that path.


What makes it correct?
The fact that prophets and revelations exist in our day, therefore some of these doctrines are not just some man's ideas about what God wants us to do if we want eternal happiness.


And what exactly is the correct explanation of God's personality?
The fact that He is not the capricious, unfair, spiteful tyrant that medieval Christendom started portraying Him to be. Instead, God is a fair-minded, comp***ionate, patient parent.


See, if I knew this ,or if you could tell me in advance, then I could decide to join the Mormons or not.
One suggestion for you: Perhaps get a copy of the Book of Mormon and read it, start to finish, with a humble heart.
That might help you a lot in deciding whether to join the LDS church or not, if it's really that important to you.


And those Mormons I knew made similar statements and they told me to check out this or that.. no help!
Don't underestimate the importance of going to a church's home page to learn its official doctrines. That is one of the first things I would probably do if I were interested in another church.

[RealFakeHair]

A more correct description of the path that leads to eternal life, and a more correct explanation of the kind of personality that God has.


Did you ask those many Mormons your question? Did you check the LDS website?

You must first understand this one principle; LDSinc. and Christians use the same language, but have different dictionaries.
Example. LDSinc. say, A more correct description of the path that leads to eternal life Meaning, You follow all the rules and commandments of the LDSinc. and maybe one day you can become a god and have your many goddess wives on your own planet, with the added benefits of eternal sex.
LDSinc. When they say; more correct explanation of the kind of personality that God has. This means the LDSinc. god is just one of many gods out there and he has a father, grand-father, and so on and so one. This LDSinc. had to work his way to godhood just like you have to also. and so on and so on.

[Phoenix]

Prove that LDS people define the word "personality" differently from the definition that any other Christian uses. Thanks in advance for backing up your ***ertion.

[Christodoulos]

"One suggestion for you: Perhaps get a copy of the Book of Mormon and read it, start to finish, with a humble heart.
That might help you a lot in deciding whether to join the LDS church or not, if it's really that important to you. "

I really tried to read through the Book of Mormon with a desire to learn, but I couldn't get through it.

I'm not interested in Mormonism , but only to learn of its appeal to others.

My take on the historical aspects of Mormonism was simply to create a new ideology on the part of its founder ;using a christian motif or template, but with a new and more expansive theology ; one which would create a new vision for its
followers . To do this , enough changes would have to be incorporated into both belief and practice ,giving it a sense of exclusivity and unique purpose.
And this is what most new denominations at least, try to do. The Mormons did their *** well.
Sadly , for this reason ,other Christians only see them as a cult.

[John T]

Can someone give me the compelling reason for someone to become a Mormon.

What is the main draw that Mormonism offers?

I've known many Mormons and I've yet to figure it out .

Please be specific and clear and concise. thanks.

What I learned from posting here and elsewhere over the years is that it ALL comes down to their "Maalox moment" aka "burning bosom" or their "testimony", which they recite to one another at "Testimony Meeting" and every testimony ends with the same similar ending, "Therefore, I know Mormonism to be true."

Their "Maalox moment" comes when the prospective convert (such as proselytized by the LDS Elders who come knocking on your door), and their proof of the veracity of the BoM is asking the convert to "pray to get knowledge that the BoM is true", and that will be manifested in a wholly subjective experience called the "Burning Bosom" which I reckon is similar to a tummy ache.

Because they repeat this self-affirming mantra to others so often, and because the new Mormon is ushered into a smothering lifestyle, misnamed as "love", it is extremely hard to break habits when you are supported by other similarly-deluded people who pronounce the most inane things just to avoid looking at the truth of their founder. There are many examples and legacies of actions from people who have similarly brainwashed. They include the Jim Jones cult, where 900+ people committed m*** suicide. Or Waco Texas where Wayne Howland aka David Koresh and his followers died in a shoot out with the FBI, and/or in a subsequent self-started arson when Janet Reno was Attorney General of the US.

Dare I bring the antisemitism that is so rampant in Germany? It is a legacy of what the children were taught when Hitler reigned. In all of these incidents above sulfurous lies were repeated so often that people started to believe that the lies were truth, and those "truths" were uncritically p***ed on to others.

I hope that you can see the LDS people in a different light, and also see why it is so hard to witness to a True Blue Mormon (TBM).

[RealFakeHair]

"One suggestion for you: Perhaps get a copy of the Book of Mormon and read it, start to finish, with a humble heart.
That might help you a lot in deciding whether to join the LDS church or not, if it's really that important to you. "

I really tried to read through the Book of Mormon with a desire to learn, but I couldn't get through it.

I'm not interested in Mormonism , but only to learn of its appeal to others.

My take on the historical aspects of Mormonism was simply to create a new ideology on the part of its founder ;using a christian motif or template, but with a new and more expansive theology ; one which would create a new vision for its
followers . To do this , enough changes would have to be incorporated into both belief and practice ,giving it a sense of exclusivity and unique purpose.
And this is what most new denominations at least, try to do. The Mormons did their *** well.
Sadly , for this reason ,other Christians only see them as a cult.

My one suggestion is for you; to get a copy of the 1830 edition of the Book of Mormon and then try not to **** you brains out.
It proves one thing, the LDSinc god is really really a dumb god.

[The Pheonix]

Can someone give me the compelling reason for someone to become a Mormon.

What is the main draw that Mormonism offers?

I've known many Mormons and I've yet to figure it out .

Please be specific and clear and concise. thanks.The "draw" is the Holy Spirit who bears witness of it...maybe the figure out for you would be to pray.

[Christodoulos]

All denominations interpret scripture to suit themselves ;Primarily for financial or political power or both.

My problem is when the leadership of certain new denominations put pen to paper and come up with a totally new Gospel narrative ,based on nothing more than their own imagination,or inspiration as they would put it.


The J.W.s have done that very well and the Mormons as well. There's a saying among J.W.s that in the eternal future the mormons will rule over planets inhabited by J.W.s ..

I'm not saying that Mormons or J.W.s are evil people ,in fact they are really fine folks .
And Mormonism is considered to be a great success story in America .
And as they say: "you can't argue with success"

And I firmly believe that the major appeal of Mormonism in the present culture is this image of great success.
I don't think that new Mormon converts understand or even care to understand the convoluted nature of Mormon theology.

All they see are the bright smiling faces of Mormonism and what it offers to new members in terms of iden***y and material ,social benefits.
And sadly, these are exactly the things which are missing from mainstream churches.

[The Pheonix]

All denominations interpret scripture to suit themselves ;Primarily for financial or political power or both.

My problem is when the leadership of certain new denominations put pen to paper and come up with a totally new Gospel narrative ,based on nothing more than their own imagination,or inspiration as they would put it.


The J.W.s have done that very well and the Mormons as well. There's a saying among J.W.s that in the eternal future the mormons will rule over planets inhabited by J.W.s ..

I'm not saying that Mormons or J.W.s are evil people ,in fact they are really fine folks .
And Mormonism is considered to be a great success story in America .
And as they say: "you can't argue with success"

And I firmly believe that the major appeal of Mormonism in the present culture is this image of great success.
I don't think that new Mormon converts understand or even care to understand the convoluted nature of Mormon theology.

All they see are the bright smiling faces of Mormonism and what it offers to new members in terms of iden***y and material ,social benefits.
And sadly, these are exactly the things which are missing from mainstream churches.
Mormonism is not just a religion, but a way of life.

[RealFakeHair]

[QUOTE=Christodoulos;159812]All denominations interpret scripture to suit themselves ;Primarily for financial or political power or both.


Well, Christodoulos, that is mighty white of you to know so much about so many denominations. I surrender to you.

[RealFakeHair]

Mormonism is not just a religion, but a way of life.

Hey lookie here, we agree on something!

[Christodoulos]

[QUOTE=Christodoulos;159812]All denominations interpret scripture to suit themselves ;Primarily for financial or political power or both.


Well, Christodoulos, that is mighty white of you to know so much about so many denominations. I surrender to you.

never surrender . I never do; One word I've never learned the meaning of is the word surrender. In fact ,it's never been part of my vocabulary.

But , did I offend you , if so ,in what way? pray tell. would just like to know, so I can improve on it ,so as to offend you
in a much greater way in the future again and again.
so ,go ahead and say ...

[Christodoulos]

Mormonism is not just a religion, but a way of life.

they all say that pheonix ,they all say the same thing..

[RealFakeHair]

[QUOTE=RealFakeHair;159815]

never surrender . I never do; One word I've never learned the meaning of is the word surrender. In fact ,it's never been part of my vocabulary.

But , did I offend you , if so ,in what way? pray tell. would just like to know, so I can improve on it ,so as to offend you
in a much greater way in the future again and again.
so ,go ahead and say ...

Ah, what?...................

[Christodoulos]

[QUOTE=Christodoulos;159818]

Ah, what?...................

sorry ,I thought I offended you..

[Phoenix]

[QUOTE=RealFakeHair;159820]

sorry ,I thought I offended you..

Fake Hair is too busy offending others to be offended by someone else.

[RealFakeHair]

[QUOTE=Christodoulos;159821]

Fake Hair is too busy offending others to be offended by someone else.

Thank you Phoenix. You are correct Joseph Smith jr. offends common sense, but that's another story, aint it.

[John T]

Mormonism is not just a religion, but a way of life.

I understand that their blood is tinted green, and not red because of all the green jello they eat! :rolleyes:

[The Pheonix]

Hey lookie here, we agree on something!We agree it is a good way of life? The truth is that those who oppose our faith and have an axe to grind, do not care where we end, only that we leave. You would even prefer those who leave were atheists rather than Mormons. You also do not care what it might do to our families. Where is the Christianity in these motives?

[The Pheonix]

I understand that their blood is tinted green, and not red because of all the green jello they eat! :rolleyes:Not me...I hate green jello, so I have ice water in mine. :)

[RealFakeHair]

We agree it is a good way of life? The truth is that those who oppose our faith and have an axe to grind, do not care where we end, only that we leave. You would even prefer those who leave were atheists rather than Mormons. You also do not care what it might do to our families. Where is the Christianity in these motives?

I have seen what LDSinc. Has done to families when a man who was once a TBM with a temple recommend wake up one day and realize it is all BS and walks away. The problem comes when his wife says, " I want a husband that can take me with him to the Celestial heaven." OOPS, Salt Lake city we got a problem.....

[Phoenix]

I have seen what LDSinc. Has done to families when a man who was once a TBM with a temple recommend wake up one day and realize it is all BS and walks away. The problem comes when his wife says, " I want a husband that can take me with him to the Celestial heaven." OOPS, Salt Lake city we got a problem.....

What is the problem? LDS "Inc." hasn't done anything at all to that family. Unless you're claiming that it's the fault of Protestantism, inc. that Bart Ehrman decided one day that Evangelicalism was a crock, and walked away from it. Is that what you are claiming? Are the Bart Ehrmans of the world something that your flavor of Christianity needs to repent of? Do the Bart Ehrmans of the world prove that your flavor of Christianity is just the fake product of the imaginary mind of Marty Luther and Johnny Calvin?

[Christodoulos]

My one suggestion is for you; to get a copy of the 1830 edition of the Book of Mormon and then try not to **** you brains out.
It proves one thing, the LDSinc god is really really a dumb god.

Is he dumber than you? Now that would be hard to believe!! pal..

[RealFakeHair]

Is he dumber than you? Now that would be hard to believe!! pal..

Just prove my mom was right.

[Christodoulos]

Just prove my mom was right.

Find a subject you know something about and I'll challenge you to a debate.

no links , no quotes , nothing from your mother ,just what you have between your ears.

What do you say?

[Christodoulos]

still thinking about it??

responses no more than 2-3 minutes in length ..

no more than 1-2 small paragraphs ..

rapid response time. are you ready?

What do ya say cowboy?

[alanmolstad]

7of9 vs Wonder Woman, .......Knife fight in a phone booth.

Who would win?

[Christodoulos]

7of9 vs Wonder Woman, .......Knife fight in a phone booth.

Who would win?

what are you two guys even doing on this forum. are you the reason no one bothers to post anything. scaring folks away with your childish antics and slow witted gibberish?

and you characters want to take on the Mormons? give me a break. !

Take me on , I'm here and waiting , go ahead . Let's see what you got for brains.

[Phoenix]

what are you two guys even doing on this forum. are you the reason no one bothers to post anything. scaring folks away with your childish antics and slow witted gibberish?

and you characters want to take on the Mormons? give me a break. !

Take me on , I'm here and waiting , go ahead . Let's see what you got for brains.

I admire your willingness to challenge those guys to debate something that matters, but I think that at least one of them doesn't take this forum, or its purpose, or its participants, very seriously. But good luck with your challenge, I hope one or both take you up on it, because I would enjoy being a spectator.

[alanmolstad]

Data vs R2D2 .......bartending

[alanmolstad]

Diane Sawyer vs Michelle Obama............beer chugging contest (cage match)

[Christodoulos]

I admire your willingness to challenge those guys to debate something that matters, but I think that at least one of them doesn't take this forum, or its purpose, or its participants, very seriously. But good luck with your challenge, I hope one or both take you up on it, because I would enjoy being a spectator.

like they say in Texas : all hat, no cattle.

[jdjhere]

Christodoulos stated: "Take me on , I'm here and waiting , go ahead . Let's see what you got for brains. "

Phoenix stated "I hope one or both take you up on it, because I would enjoy being a spectator."

Luke 14:11 " For everyone that exalteth himself shall be humbled; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."

Seriously, you guys? Arent we supposed to humbly and respectfully talk about the Gospel? You two sound more like you are just here to try to win an arguement to me. What about the search for Truth? AlanMolstad and RealFakeHair like to have fun in here sometimes and lighten up the mood. They are more capable than you give them credit for.

[jdjhere]

AlanMolstad- Joseph Smith or Jesus Christ- greater work??

[Christodoulos]

Christodoulos stated: "Take me on , I'm here and waiting , go ahead . Let's see what you got for brains. "

Phoenix stated "I hope one or both take you up on it, because I would enjoy being a spectator."

Luke 14:11 " For everyone that exalteth himself shall be humbled; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."

Seriously, you guys? Arent we supposed to humbly and respectfully talk about the Gospel? You two sound more like you are just here to try to win an arguement to me. What about the search for Truth? AlanMolstad and RealFakeHair like to have fun in here sometimes and lighten up the mood. They are more capable than you give them credit for.

I believe in giving everyone the benefit of the doubt ,but how long do I have to wait?
I mean the capable part,O.K.?

I don't see or read Gospel from the likes of the two you mentioned. Jumping on a Mormon because it feels good to belittle someone is not my idea of someone humbling themselves.. no?
And it's not Gospel , it's pharisaic ,whatever.

I wouldn't exalt those two characters for nothing ,even if they mopped the floor i'm sitting on. so there! Lightening up the mood as I love to do....

By the way , trying to gain by deprecating others with clever quotes from one's mother can only be regarded as a spectator sport.

"What about the search for Truth? AlanMolstad and RealFakeHair like to have fun in here sometimes and lighten up the mood. They are more capable than you give them credit for. "

truth cometh by debating .. ha ha ha

[jdjhere]

Christodoulos stated: "truth cometh by debating .. ha ha ha"

No. Sometimes a debater that is incorrect CAN, or appear to, win a debate.

Truth is Jesus Christ. " I am the Way, the TRUTH and the Life."

Jesus Christ stated " Thy WORD (the Bible) is Truth"

AlanMolstad- Joseph Smith or Jesus Christ- greater work??

“I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam... Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such work as I."
Joseph Smith- History of the Church Vol. 6, p. 408-409

Luke 14:11 " For everyone that exalteth himself shall be humbled; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."

Philippians 2:8 "And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."


John 15:13 "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
Mark 10:45 "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
1 John 2:2 "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

I propose that THIS work is UNPARALLELED in all of human History for all Eternity and INFINATELY a better "work."

Jesus Christ- King of ALL Kings and Lord of ALL Lords

[alanmolstad]

AlanMolstad- Joseph Smith or Jesus Christ- greater work??
say what?.......

[alanmolstad]

AlanMolstad- Joseph Smith or Jesus Christ- greater work??
Well lets just look at the record and judge for ourselves...

Jesus Christ fed thousands of people via the power of the God and a boy's lunch.
however Smith bedded-down a bunch of young girls.

jesus christ healed the sick and raised the dead.
Smith?......um bedded-down a bunch of young girls.

Jesus Christ walked on the water and gave all humanity the path to ever-lasting life.
and Smith?......did I list the many young girls he bedded-down yet?

[RealFakeHair]

What is the problem? LDS "Inc." hasn't done anything at all to that family. Unless you're claiming that it's the fault of Protestantism, inc. that Bart Ehrman decided one day that Evangelicalism was a crock, and walked away from it. Is that what you are claiming? Are the Bart Ehrmans of the world something that your flavor of Christianity needs to repent of? Do the Bart Ehrmans of the world prove that your flavor of Christianity is just the fake product of the imaginary mind of Marty Luther and Johnny Calvin?
I think I met Bart Ehrmans on the back of the bus one day back in September 1983. Marty Luther and Johnny Calvin I don't recall.
However I do know that the LDSinc. main line of religion is first 10%, second Bishop calling, third taking up boys who don't know squat and sending them out to the world with their snake oil. and Fourth, keeping everyone in the family in tow.
Now is there anything I missed?

[Christodoulos]

Christodoulos stated: "truth cometh by debating .. ha ha ha"

No. Sometimes a debater that is incorrect CAN, or appear to, win a debate.

Truth is Jesus Christ. " I am the Way, the TRUTH and the Life."

Jesus Christ stated " Thy WORD (the Bible) is Truth"

AlanMolstad- Joseph Smith or Jesus Christ- greater work??

“I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam... Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such work as I."
Joseph Smith- History of the Church Vol. 6, p. 408-409

Luke 14:11 " For everyone that exalteth himself shall be humbled; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."

Philippians 2:8 "And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."


John 15:13 "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
Mark 10:45 "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
1 John 2:2 "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

I propose that THIS work is UNPARALLELED in all of human History for all Eternity and INFINATELY a better "work."

You've lost all credibility with me ,PAL!
Where were you ,before you came out of hiding, to comment about the two jokers you seem to think are capable folks ,and who were needlessly attacking phoenix and myself?
Where were you then Good Buddy? you're no Christian . I've found that those who love to quote scriptures ,are those who know them the least.

[alanmolstad]

Ouch.....

(Is this the part where everybody starts to spit at each other in retaliation ?)

[Phoenix]

Christodoulos stated: "Take me on , I'm here and waiting , go ahead . Let's see what you got for brains. "

Phoenix stated "I hope one or both take you up on it, because I would enjoy being a spectator."

Luke 14:11 " For everyone that exalteth himself shall be humbled; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."

Seriously, you guys? Arent we supposed to humbly and respectfully talk about the Gospel? You two sound more like you are just here to try to win an arguement to me. What about the search for Truth? AlanMolstad and RealFakeHair like to have fun in here sometimes and lighten up the mood. They are more capable than you give them credit for.

I look forward to seeing evidence supporting that claim.

[The Pheonix]

I have seen what LDSinc. Has done to families when a man who was once a TBM with a temple recommend wake up one day and realize it is all BS and walks away. The problem comes when his wife says, " I want a husband that can take me with him to the Celestial heaven." OOPS, Salt Lake city we got a problem.....So just say it...you would not care if people become atheists, as long as they are not Mormon. Just let it happen...

[RealFakeHair]

So just say it...you would not care if people become atheists, as long as they are not Mormon. Just let it happen...

Let me clue you in on something; I don't care what religion a person is as long as it doesn't do harm to others. I'd like for everyone to believe as I do, but life might be a bit boring. Salvation of the soul is found in the Holy Bible, if you have been given the opportunity to accept the Jesus of the Holy Bible and reject Him, that is not my problem.
I don't know why TBMs find it so difficult to realize the (religious con) put on them by Joseph Smith jr. but hey there is a long list of cult personalities out there to choose from. I don't have a favorite but if I had to choose, I think I'd pick some old drunk Irish guy, their the most fun.

[Phoenix]

Salvation of the soul is found in the Holy Bible, ..

Doesn't the Bible actually quote Jesus addressing that idea?

"Search the scriptures, for in them YOU THINK you have eternal life" ?

Isn't salvation actually found in God and in His Son?

[jdjhere]

Wow. I am not really sure what I said or did to set you off, Christodoulos. I was not hiding either- I just have not been here for awhile due to people like you. Look at how many post I have... more than you and Phoenix (or is it thePheonix??) both TOGETHER?? I think I have been here a bit more than both of you. It's immaterial to me if you find me credible or not or if you think I am a Christian or not . All I said was that I think what Jesus Christ did was INFINITELY greater than what Joseph Smith did and I stand by that statement. I am not really sure what evidence Phoenix wants ( post #45) either? You mean that RealFakeHair and AlanMolstad are capable? I have seen some of their other posts in here over the years and they know about mormonism so think what you want as well. So, what are you two wanting to talk about or are you just here to annoy? You are SO anxious to "take on" someone as you stated earlier so go ahead, impress us. You are up!

[jdjhere]

Phoenix, Jesus also said in John 17:17 "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth and Matthew 5:18 "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth p***, one jot or one ***tle shall in no wise p*** from the law, till all be fulfilled."

The Scriptures sure appeared to be pretty important to Jesus.

[RealFakeHair]

Doesn't the Bible actually quote Jesus addressing that idea?

"Search the scriptures, for in them YOU THINK you have eternal life" ?

Isn't salvation actually found in God and in His Son? Well how bout this.
ST John 5: 43. I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Whom do you receive Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible or Joseph Smith jr?
"...no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith.... Every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a p***port to their entrance... I cannot go there without his consent.… He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven." (vol. 7, p. 289)

[jdjhere]

As a matter of fact, when Jesus was confronted by satan in the desert, what did He say to him? "It is WRITTEN... It is WRITTEN...It is WRITTEN." (Matthew 4:4) But he answered and said, "It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." He also mentioned what was written about HIM in the SCROLLS. (Luke 24:27) Jesus often referenced the Scriptures, even all the way back to Adam and Eve. (Matthew 19:4) "And he answered and said unto them,"Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female."

He also said "the Scriptures CANNOT be broken." (John 10:35)

It would appear our Lord put extreme importance on the Scriptures and believed them to be true.


Phoenix asked: "Isn't salvation actually found in God and in His Son?"

jdjhere responded to Phoenix- Salvation is found in God THE Son. Acts 4:12 "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

"No one comes to the Father BUT BY ME." (John 14:6 -Jesus Christ)

[jdjhere]

John 5:39-47 Lets take a look at the Scripture you quoted:

(Jesus)"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. I receive not honour from men. But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Are we still supposed to believe Moses "writings?" Are we still supposed to believe Jesus's "words?" How do we know what they are? By reading them. That is why its called the "Living" Word of God.

[Phoenix]

Whom do you receive Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible or Joseph Smith jr?
If the question is slightly changed to this:

"Whom do you receive: Jesus Christ OR the Holy Bible OR Joseph Smith jr?"

my answer is "I receive Jesus Christ." I repeat: The scriptures don't save you. Deity saves you. People were getting saved before there was a New Testament.

[Phoenix]

As a matter of fact, when Jesus was confronted by satan in the desert, what did He say to him?
He didn't say "I am not the Savior, the Scriptures are."


Phoenix- Salvation is found in God THE Son.
So you have decided to agree with me that it's not the Bible that saves people. Good. Now, are you saying that God the Father and God the Holy Spirit play no part in a person's salvation?

[jdjhere]

I actually do agree... kind of. I agree that God saves you and that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit ALL save you because they are the One True God (in 3 persons). I also believe that without the Scriptures people would not know what is required to be saved.That is just the way God did it. It is Gods instrumental message to initially and continuosly reach us. It is the Living Word of God. I believe the Bible plants the seeds and then the Holy Spirit moves in you and helps you to better understand and interpret the Scriptures. That is why it is like a two edged sword, it cuts to the marrow. The Bible explains that Jesus Christ died for us and through His voluntary sacrifice and through his blood we are washed clean of sin. He did it all on the cross for those that will believe in Him and it is enough for the sins of the whole world but only for those that believe on His name and accept him as Lord and God. He reconciles us to the Godhead through His Vicarious Subs***utionary Atonement.

[alanmolstad]

the Scriptures are the words of life...
They do save our souls.

Nothing we can ever come to know about the Lord can disagree with what we have received in the text....

[alanmolstad]

If you become part of a religion that has as one of it's teachings that "The Bible cant save you"....then you can know that you have left the Christian Faith, and are now in a non-Christian CULT!


If you join a religion that has a lower position of the Scriptures, or attempts to place the Holy Scriptures on an equal level as other written works found in other religions, then you can know you are in a CULT.

If you become involved with a religion that claims that your "personal revelation" is eqiual in authority, then you can know you are in a CULT.

[Phoenix]

I actually do agree... kind of. I agree that God saves you and that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit ALL save you because they are the One True God (in 3 persons).
Then we need to get clarification on what your theology or soteriology is.

Does Jesus ALONE save you? (Do you believe that Jesus (God the Son) is a different PERSON from God the Father and God the HS?


I also believe that without the Scriptures people would not know what is required to be saved.That is just the way God did it.
Wasn't there a time when there were no scriptures? Was it impossible for anyone to be saved until scriptures existed?


It is the Living Word of God.
You mean Jesus isn't the Living Word of God? Some paper pages in a book are?

[Phoenix]

the Scriptures are the words of life...
But those combinations of letters on a page aren't what does the saving. The Bible says that we are saved by GOD's grace, through faith in CHRIST.


They do save our souls.
I was taught that Jesus saves. I even saw a bumper sticker that said it.

[Phoenix]

If you become part of a religion that has as one of it's teachings that "The Bible cant save you"....then you can know that you have left the Christian Faith, and are now in a non-Christian CULT!
That is ironic--the idea that the way you can tell a church is a non-Christian cult, is if it teaches that it's JESUS who saves people.

[RealFakeHair]

That is ironic--the idea that the way you can tell a church is a non-Christian cult, is if it teaches that it's JESUS who saves people.

boy you sure don't want to touch this......no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith.... Every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a p***port to their entrance... I cannot go there without his consent.… He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven." (vol. 7, p. 289)

[jdjhere]

Romans 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the WORD of God."

In context, this verse is about the written Word- the Bible. I believe we hear ABOUT the Word (the Bible), we then READ it and God then SAVES you IF you accept the Scripture (by reading it) stating Christs died FOR you and for me and for all of us. At THAT point, God DOES save us and we receive the Holy Spirit who leads us and helps us understand Scripture and we, like babes, hunger for more. Then we go from milk to meat over the years as we grow in the Lord, trying to be more Christ-like.

Side note: Phoenix (or is it the Pheonix??)- Do you believe this, as posted by RealFakeHair??

"no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith.... Every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a p***port to their entrance... I cannot go there without his consent.… He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven." (vol. 7, p. 289)

If you believe this, can you explain why? If not, just ignore this or tell me you do not believe it. Thanks.

[jdjhere]

Phoenix?

Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad: "the Scriptures are the words of life..."

Phoenix responded "But those combinations of letters on a page aren't what does the saving. The Bible says (letters on a page) that we are saved by GOD's grace, through faith in CHRIST.

You got this idea FROM a Bible verse.

Are we just splitting hairs here? Would it be fair to say the Bible is Gods LIVING Perfect Word and it LEADS or POINTS you to salvation? God LIVES in His Word and it is inexplicably connected to Christ.

[jdjhere]

Phoenix stated (post#61) "That is ironic--the idea that the way you can tell a church is a non-Christian cult, is if it teaches that it's JESUS who saves people. "

Only when THIS is part of their teaching as well- ""no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith.... Every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a p***port to their entrance... I cannot go there without his consent.… He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven." (vol. 7, p. 289)

Phoenix (or is it the Pheonix??) If you believe this, can you explain why? If not, just ignore this or tell me you do not believe it. Thanks.

[alanmolstad]

But those combinations of letters on a page aren't what does the saving. The Bible says that we are saved by GOD's grace, through faith in CHRIST.


I was taught that Jesus saves. I even saw a bumper sticker that said it.


The words of life.....There is no separation between the Lord and his word....If one can't save the other cant...

[alanmolstad]

That is ironic--the idea that the way you can tell a church is a non-Christian cult, is if it teaches that it's JESUS who saves people.
All cults have their own false Christs.......bow down to a false Christ in worship and discover only too late that in doing so you walk away from the only true christ.....

Do so many great works in the name of a false Christ and only too late learn that the true Christ does not know who you even are

[jdjhere]

Phoenix?? (jdjhere bumps Phoenix)

Do you believe this?

""no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith.... Every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a p***port to their entrance... I cannot go there without his consent.… He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven." (vol. 7, p. 289)

As an LDS, do you believe the above? Its a simple yes or no answer. Do you need Joseph Smiths consent to get into the celestial kingdom?

[jdjhere]

phoenix?

quote originally posted by alanmolstad: "the scriptures are the words of life..."

Phoenix responded "but those combinations of letters on a page aren't what does the saving. the Bible says (letters on a page) that we are saved by God's grace, through faith in Christ.

You got this above truth from a Bible verse (letters on a page).

And read Romans 10:17 "so then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the WORD of God.

Are we just splitting hairs here? Would it be fair to say the Bible is Gods living perfect word and it leads or points you to salvation? God lives in His Word and it is inexplicably connected to Christ the Father and the Holy Spirit. tttttttttttttttttttttttttt

[Phoenix]

boy you sure don't want to touch this....
I am not afraid to 'touch' it. It's not as blasphemous as you want it to be, when its context (including Bible verses that establish similar ideas) is considered.

[Phoenix]

Romans 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the WORD of God."

In context, this verse is about the written Word- the Bible.
In the CORRECT context, it was, at the time it was written, probably NOT about the Bible as commonly defined by modern people, since at that time, the corpus of canonized scripture was probably much less than today's "official" Christian Bible. They had the OT, plus a very few epistles that were officially recognized as scripture.


I believe we hear ABOUT the Word (the Bible), we then READ it and God then SAVES you IF you accept the Scripture (by reading it) stating Christs died FOR you and for me and for all of us.
So when missionaries go to African villages where no Bible has been translated into their language, and those missionaries merely TALK about Jesus (because that's the only way they can teach people with no written language or no books that have been translated into their language), it's impossible for those villagers to be saved?



Side note: Phoenix (or is it the Pheonix??)
I am the one without the "the"


- Do you believe this, as posted by RealFakeHair??
Only in a context similar to the scenario described in the Bible and commonly believed by most Christians, where saints and/or prophets will be chosen by Christ to be sentinels who will be given the responsibility to only admit the "elect" into God's presence.

You are welcome.

[RealFakeHair]

I am not afraid to 'touch' it. It's not as blasphemous as you want it to be, when its context (including Bible verses that establish similar ideas) is considered.

Well if you don't want to touch it, just take a peek at it. Oh, and with out a doubt it is blasphemous as one could have made it, but Joseph Smith jr. Must have got a kick out of it.

[jdjhere]

""no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith.... Every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a p***port to their entrance... I cannot go there without his consent.… He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven." (vol. 7, p. 289)

As an LDS, do you believe the above? Its a simple yes or no answer. Do you need Joseph Smiths consent to get into the celestial kingdom?

Phoenix replied "Only in a context similar to the scenario described in the Bible and commonly believed by most Christians, where saints and/or prophets will be chosen by Christ to be sentinels who will be given the responsibility to only admit the "elect" into God's presence."

Could I have a few of these verses you are referring to, Phoenix? Thanks.

[Phoenix]

As far as beliefs commonly held by Christians go, the cl***ic example is St. Peter deciding who gets admitted past the pearly gates of heaven, and who must take the "down" elevator.

As far as Bible verses go, one example is 1 Cor. 6--"do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels?"

[RealFakeHair]

As far as beliefs commonly held by Christians go, the cl***ic example is St. Peter deciding who gets admitted past the pearly gates of heaven, and who must take the "down" elevator.

As far as Bible verses go, one example is 1 Cor. 6--"do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels?"
In case of Mormons, that elevator only has one ****on, you wanta quess which way it goes?

[Phoenix]

In case of Mormons, that elevator only has one ****on, you wanta quess which way it goes?

Sure: It must go "up," because the LDS can't be any further down than the antis currently have them being.

[RealFakeHair]

Sure: It must go "up," because the LDS can't be any further down than the antis currently have them being.

Only if you live in Australia.

[fpv]

In case of Mormons, that elevator only has one ****on, you wanta quess which way it goes?

What about Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Roman Catholics, Greek Orthodox Etc. In fact the vast majority of the worlds population.

Do they get the down ****on too?

FPV

[Libby]

The appeal of the LDS Church is probably as varied as the membership....especially among converts (which I was)..

Things that drew me into the church:

1. Families are forever. (I had just lost my dad and this ideal was very appealing to me)

2. The Book of Mormon. I read it through before I joined the church and have read it many times, since. I liked many parts of it...until it started unraveling for me, with some deeper investigation.

3. Good moral values (although, I have since found that some of the basic human rights values, I had back then, and still have, are good, also (and better, in some regards...IMHO).

4. I could see, some basis, for a need for a restoration of Christianity. I did accept that, at the time.

5. Gordon B. Hinckley. I read a book he wrote, before I joined the church, and was very touched by it.

6. A lot of things just seemed to be directing me towards a church I had never, ever thought about joining. It was all very serendipitous...I thought, at the time.

[RealFakeHair]

What about Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Roman Catholics, Greek Orthodox Etc. In fact the vast majority of the worlds population.

Do they get the down ****on too?

FPV

That is up to them, I don't make the rules, but if I did?

[RealFakeHair]

The appeal of the LDS Church is probably as varied as the membership....especially among converts (which I was)..

Things that drew me into the church:

1. Families are forever. (I had just lost my dad and this ideal was very appealing to me)

2. The Book of Mormon. I read it through before I joined the church and have read it many times, since. I liked many parts of it...until it started unraveling for me, with some deeper investigation.

3. Good moral values (although, I have since found that some of the basic human rights values, I had back then, and still have, are good, also (and better, in some regards...IMHO).

4. I could see, some basis, for a need for a restoration of Christianity. I did accept that, at the time.

5. Gordon B. Hinckley. I read a book he wrote, before I joined the church, and was very touched by it.

6. A lot of things just seemed to be directing me towards a church I had never, ever thought about joining. It was all very serendipitous...I thought, at the time.

Aint it funny. Many converts to LDSinc. Have told me the (family forever thing) was the reason they joined. Most had to do with the lost of a child. When I asks them to ponder this thought; Adam and Eve must be going crazy in mormon heaven.
The most interesting reason a guy gave me for joining LDSinc. Was because it was an America religion and he was All American!

[Libby]

The most interesting reason a guy gave me for joining LDSinc. Was because it was an America religion and he was All American!

That is interesting. Never heard that one before. Not exactly a good reason to join a religion, IMO.

[Phoenix]

Aint it funny. Many converts to LDSinc. Have told me the (family forever thing) was the reason they joined. Most had to do with the lost of a child. When I asks them to ponder this thought; Adam and Eve must be going crazy in mormon heaven.
Why would they be going crazy up in heaven?


The most interesting reason a guy gave me for joining LDSinc. Was because it was an America religion and he was All American!
I didn't even know he played football, let alone was good enough to make All American.

[RealFakeHair]

Why would they be going crazy up in heaven?


I didn't even know he played football, let alone was good enough to make All American.

How might you like it if you had your children, grandchildren, great, great grandchildren, great, great, great grandchildren, great, great, great, great grandchildren, etc, following you around for all eternity?

[Phoenix]

How might you like it if you had your children, grandchildren, great, great grandchildren, great, great, great grandchildren, great, great, great, great grandchildren, etc, following you around for all eternity?

If they are nice to me, it would be okay....

[theway]

Can someone give me the compelling reason for someone to become a Mormon.

What is the main draw that Mormonism offers?

I've known many Mormons and I've yet to figure it out .

Please be specific and clear and concise. thanks.TRUTH.


For those who can handle it anyway...

[Christodoulos]

TRUTH.


For those who can handle it anyway...


Joe Stalin and FDR. would often say the same thing..

There must be some Mormon somewhere on earth who can give me an answer to my compelling question ,Really!

[RealFakeHair]

TRUTH.


For those who can handle it anyway...

Okay, now give me the truth; how old was Joseph Smith jr when he received his first vision?

[Christodoulos]

TRUTH.


For those who can handle it anyway...

Mormon church is going gang busters in Mexico.

Mexicans are told they are descendants of the lost tribes of israel. All aztecas and mayas and even north american tribes are descended from ancient israel.

I don't believe that for a second. But that doesn't give me the right to bash mormons or mexicans for believing that tale.

But mexicans believe a lot of tales told to them by some clever jokers.

[theway]

Joe Stalin and FDR. would often say the same thing.. Im sure they did, but we are talking about "Real Truth" or the knowledge of things as they were, are, and will be.
Real Truth only comes from one source. <Hint> It's not from man.


There must be some Mormon somewhere on earth who can give me an answer to my compelling question ,Really!
Well if truth is not important to you, then I've got nothing.

[theway]

Mexicans are told they are descendants of the lost tribes of israel. All aztecas and mayas and even north american tribes are descended from ancient israel.
I highly doubt that.

One of the first things a missionary is taught, is specifically not to say that.

Where did you get this idea from?

[Christodoulos]

I highly doubt that.

One of the first things a missionary is taught, is specifically not to say that.

Where did you get this idea from?

mormon missionaries working in mexico.

[RealFakeHair]

I highly doubt that.

One of the first things a missionary is taught, is specifically not to say that.

Where did you get this idea from?
I use to get the young guys to say things they were never taught at the Missionary center. I can easily see how they might tell mexicans their DNA is of Jewish blood.

[Sara]

I highly doubt that.

One of the first things a missionary is taught, is specifically not to say that.

Where did you get this idea from?

That's not true. I was a mormon missionary, and we did tell Mexican people they were descended from Israelites, because Mormon leaders said all North American Natives were, until fairly recently.

[RealFakeHair]

That's not true. I was a mormon missionary, and we did tell Mexican people they were descended from Israelites, because Mormon leaders said all North American Natives were, until fairly recently.

I am a descended of Chief Knocahoma, one of the lost tribe of Irish drunks.
yes, Sara, many Mexican's told me the same thing, but hey it ain't politically correct anymore for the temple of doom HQ

[theway]

That's not true. I was a mormon missionary, and we did tell Mexican people they were descended from Israelites, because Mormon leaders said all North American Natives were, until fairly recently.
Then you did it on your own, against the wishes of the Church.
I went on my mission in 1980 I was told twice not to say it, as well as other missionaries going to other countries.

[RealFakeHair]

Then you did it on your own, against the wishes of the Church.
I went on my mission in 1980 I was told twice not to say it, as well as other missionaries going to other countries.

The interesting question is, why were you told not to say it, if it is what your founding fathers of the LDSinc. believed>

[Sara]

Then you did it on your own, against the wishes of the Church.
I went on my mission in 1980 I was told twice not to say it, as well as other missionaries going to other countries.

I went before you did. It was in the discussions we gave. It was also in the Preface to the Book of Mormon until 2006.

"Spencer W. Kimball said in April 1971 at a Lamanite Youth Conference, "With pride I tell those who come to my office that a Lamanite is a descendant of one Lehi who left Jerusalem six hundred years before Christ and with his family crossed the mighty deep and landed in America. And Lehi and his family became the ancestors of all of the Indian and Mestizo tribes in North and South and Central America and in the islands of the sea". Spencer W. Kimball, "Of Royal Blood", Ensign, July 1971.

"Ted E. Brewerton of the First quorum of the Seventy said in October 1995 "Many migratory groups came to the Americas, but none was as important as the three mentioned in the Book of Mormon. The blood of these people flows in the veins of the Blackfoot and the Blood Indians of Alberta, Canada; in the Navajo and the Apache of the American Southwest; the Inca of western South America; the Aztec of Mexico; the Maya of Guatemala; and in other native American groups in the Western Hemisphere and the Pacific islands". Ted E. Brewerton, "The Book of Mormon: A Sacred Ancient Record", Ensign, Nov 1995.

[Christodoulos]

I went before you did. It was in the discussions we gave. It was also in the Preface to the Book of Mormon until 2006.

"Spencer W. Kimball said in April 1971 at a Lamanite Youth Conference, "With pride I tell those who come to my office that a Lamanite is a descendant of one Lehi who left Jerusalem six hundred years before Christ and with his family crossed the mighty deep and landed in America. And Lehi and his family became the ancestors of all of the Indian and Mestizo tribes in North and South and Central America and in the islands of the sea". Spencer W. Kimball, "Of Royal Blood", Ensign, July 1971.

"Ted E. Brewerton of the First quorum of the Seventy said in October 1995 "Many migratory groups came to the Americas, but none was as important as the three mentioned in the Book of Mormon. The blood of these people flows in the veins of the Blackfoot and the Blood Indians of Alberta, Canada; in the Navajo and the Apache of the American Southwest; the Inca of western South America; the Aztec of Mexico; the Maya of Guatemala; and in other native American groups in the Western Hemisphere and the Pacific islands". Ted E. Brewerton, "The Book of Mormon: A Sacred Ancient Record", Ensign, Nov 1995.

I once knew mexican americans ,formerly Catholics, who became Mormons and they fell for this fairytale.

When I asked what evidence there was ,they told me the pyramids in chichen itza and in the yucatan of mexico indicate that the israelites who knew how to build pyramids had at one time lived there.

and that's the kind of b.s. they tell.

[Phoenix]

How do you know it's B.S.? Did you go back in time and watch the construction of both cultures' pyramids, and verify that there was never any connection of any kind?

[RealFakeHair]

How do you know it's B.S.? Did you go back in time and watch the construction of both cultures' pyramids, and verify that there was never any connection of any kind?

Synchronicity; it happens all the time in History. The inventors of the Television happened at the same time in different countries.

[Phoenix]

Synchronicity; it happens all the time in History. The inventors of the Television happened at the same time in different countries.

It does happen frequently, but that doesn't prove that it happened in THIS particular case. Edison and Tesla both developed some inventions around the same time, but there is evidence that one of the dudes borrowed ideas from the other dude, OR at least did some things as a result of what he saw the other dude doing. That's not "random coincidence" synchronicity.

By the way, the Police's song "Synchronicity" talks about a Loch Ness Monster emerging from the lake as a RESULT of mankind's effects on nature, not as an independent, UNRELATED event. At least that's what I see the song saying.

[Christodoulos]

Synchronicity; it happens all the time in History. The inventors of the Television happened at the same time in different countries.

The Israelites were semitic . the aztecas and mayas are not,were not. two different races of people. funny how the genome makes liars out of so many formerly honest folk.

[Phoenix]

The Israelites were semitic . the aztecas and mayas are not,were not. two different races of people. funny how the genome makes liars out of so many formerly honest folk.

So how do you explain the apparent cross-cultural influences?