Calvin- Luther

[Christodoulos]

Those who helped to usher in the Protestant reformation may have been well intentioned but history proves that the final results of their works have been a disaster for the Christian Faith in general.

Had Luther simply worked to reform the Catholic Church and had he worked as diligently to expose the corruption and the false teachings of this behemoth of an organization ,he would've done a prodigious work.

The problem with Luther was that in the beginning he was on a good course but overtime he became as corrupted and power hungry as any of the most corrupted popes in history,

All this aside, the biggest fallacy Luther can be blamed for ,is the sola scritura or scripture only idea.

This one precept is responsible for the thousands of divisions existing in Christendom and has weakened the church and everything it stands for.
And has also allowed six day creationists to trick and deceive millions.

[cheachea]

Those who helped to usher in the Protestant reformation may have been well intentioned but history proves that the final results of their works have been a disaster for the Christian Faith in general.

Had Luther simply worked to reform the Catholic Church and had he worked as diligently to expose the corruption and the false teachings of this behemoth of an organization ,he would've done a prodigious work.

The problem with Luther was that in the beginning he was on a good course but overtime he became as corrupted and power hungry as any of the most corrupted popes in history,

All this aside, the biggest fallacy Luther can be blamed for ,is the sola scritura or scripture only idea.

This one precept is responsible for the thousands of divisions existing in Christendom and has weakened the church and everything it stands for.
And has also allowed six day creationists to trick and deceive millions.




So are you a Roman Catholic or Orthodox ? Can you please give some background on what you believe and your reason for attacking Creationism and Protestantism ?

[Christodoulos]

So are you a Roman Catholic or Orthodox ? Can you please give some background on what you believe and your reason for attacking Creationism and Protestantism ?

I'm just trolling the forum ,Remember..So why ask?

[cheachea]

I'm just trolling the forum ,Remember..So why ask?




If you give a little bit of a background on what you believe then I will know what your objective and reason is for posting and making such threads.

[alanmolstad]

Luther was the only guy worth talking about....The Catholic church is not worth our time....


Even to this day the Catholic church is a joke.....the only thing it has managed to do well is hide pedophiles.

[Christodoulos]

Luther was the only guy worth talking about....The Catholic church is not worth our time....


Even to this day the Catholic church is a joke.....the only thing it has managed to do well is hide pedophiles.

It is a joke as you say until the day that it isn't .

But as we all know , the majority of Baptist ,Evangelical fundies look at Mormons , Snake handlers and poison drinkers ,
Scientologists , J.W.s and numerous others as severely heretical groups.
And while I would agree ,I can't help to wonder why the amazement? Once the scriptures are opened to all ,then all will read into them whatever they wish. And had it not been for Luther would we now be having to scratch our heads over Mormonism or scientology or J.W.s or pentacostal hostiles?

Becareful who you praise just as you should be careful what you pray for ;you just might get it!

[alanmolstad]

I think Luther basically saved the Christian church.
what we need now is for another theologian within the catholic church to rise up and lead the church away from the pedophiles and their helpers who now clearly run the Catholic church, and set up a new denomination a catholic believers that does not put up with all the sex stuff they got now.

[Christodoulos]

I think Luther basically saved the Christian church.
what we need now is for another theologian within the catholic church to rise up and lead the church away from the pedophiles and their helpers who now clearly run the Catholic church, and set up a new denomination a catholic believers that does not put up with all the sex stuff they got now.
the prots are no more immune to the same depravity hitting the r.c.s or than anyone else. it's the height of hubris to think so.

[alanmolstad]

The excuse "But the other guy is just as bad" is the cl***ic human way to respond to being caught red-handed..........it goes all the way back to Adam and Eve.......



If a person needs to defend his religion by saying that the "other religions are just as bad'....really whats they are telling us that there is "no difference" and thus "no merit" in their own religion....and "no point" in thinking they are interested at all in truth.

[tdidymas]

I think Luther basically saved the Christian church.
what we need now is for another theologian within the catholic church to rise up and lead the church away from the pedophiles and their helpers who now clearly run the Catholic church, and set up a new denomination a catholic believers that does not put up with all the sex stuff they got now.

Some have already tried to do this. The last straw for them was Vatican I with their new dogmas about Mariology, transubstatiation, and others. They broke off and formed their own denomination called "The Old Catholic Church."
:)TD

[alanmolstad]

I have heard that there is a growing movement at this time within the catholic Bishops to simply go against the current leadership and demand a sweeping house cleaning to remove not only the people hurting chidren, but also kick out all of the people that closed their eyes, or actually worked to keep the secrets....

the name of Hans Küng http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/apr/15/pope-clergy-sex-abuse-penance has come up in a few places as perhaps someone like Luther that might kickstart the movement to help cut the head off the snake.


My main point in this is that there really is only one thing the catholic church has been shown to be good at in the last few generations, and that is protecting the secret that their own Priests are the source of the most disgusting of sins known to mankind.

from the top of the church to the bottom, we have seen nothing but proof that the Catholic church is very good at allowing their priests to use children sexually, and then working hard for years upon years so that even if the Priest is reported no justice it the result.
Even to this very hour we still see people inside the Catholic church working to put the best face on the known sin going on inside the church.

When the topic comes up how many times have i heard the defenders of priests who molest children turn around and rather than admitting there is a serious problem that is systemic to the churche's leadership, instead try to point to the sins of others in an effort to minimize the "looks" of their own sins...

(In other words, rather than working to bring an end to Catholic priests molesting children, the misguided supporters of such Catholic priests will only work hard to be part of the cover-up, or to point to Jim Bakker, and Jimmy Swaggart)

[Christodoulos]

"He that is without sin ,let him cast the first stone"

yes ,it's true Catholic clergy are doing some bad stuff . But you have well over a 100 thous priests in the usa ,all supposedly celibate . But as a percentage ,the numbers of pedophiles or abusers are not greater than what you find in other demographics.
The same percentage of degenerates exist in all prot. denominations when combined together from all denominations.

The same percentage exists in all professions ,such as: teachers or psychiatrists or doctors and so on..

Considering the pressures cath. priests deal with ,their numbers may not be out of line at all.

If we started condemning each other over human weaknesses when would it stop?

At least with the Cath. they support schools ,hospitals and many charities . What does your local Baptist denomination do with the cash they squeeze out of the local yokels?

look at all the fools that supported jimmy swaggart and hundreds like him . I'm sure he appreciates all the support you gave him.

[alanmolstad]

like I said.....pointing to others goes all the way back to the garden....

[Christodoulos]

like I said.....pointing to others goes all the way back to the garden....

well then you've said nothing!

Do you really think it takes a theologian to deal with pedophilia ?

C'mon ,I thought you had brains.

[alanmolstad]

I have heard that there is a growing movement at this time within the catholic Bishops to simply go against the current leadership and demand a sweeping house cleaning to remove not only the people hurting chidren, but also kick out all of the people that closed their eyes, or actually worked to keep the secrets....

the name of Hans Küng http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/apr/15/pope-clergy-sex-abuse-penance has come up in a few places as perhaps someone like Luther that might kickstart the movement to help cut the head off the snake.


My main point in this is that there really is only one thing the catholic church has been shown to be good at in the last few generations, and that is protecting the secret that their own Priests are the source of the most disgusting of sins known to mankind.

from the top of the church to the bottom, we have seen nothing but proof that the Catholic church is very good at allowing their priests to use children sexually, and then working hard for years upon years so that even if the Priest is reported no justice it the result.
Even to this very hour we still see people inside the Catholic church working to put the best face on the known sin going on inside the church.

When the topic comes up how many times have i heard the defenders of priests who molest children turn around and rather than admitting there is a serious problem that is systemic to the churche's leadership, instead try to point to the sins of others in an effort to minimize the "looks" of their own sins...

(In other words, rather than working to bring an end to Catholic priests molesting children, the misguided supporters of such Catholic priests will only work hard to be part of the cover-up, or to point to Jim Bakker, and Jimmy Swaggart)
The corruption of the catholic church drips down and contaminates even the people sitting in church.
You do not accidentally end up taking part in the general conspiracy (common in the church membership) to look the other way when little children are being abused, you have to make a conscious decision to be part of it.

it's a moral choice...

You have to willingly put aside what you know is the right thing to do, and take upon yourself the yoke of denial...

This is how you end up with a Church that for the past few generations has really accomplished nothing except becoming good at moving molesters from one church to the next, thus allowing the abuse to continue.
It really is a systemic problem that is not just part of the church's past, but the sad fact is, that this is still with us to this very day.

And given latest well-known court case that still shows the reluctance of the church to identify known perpetrators, pedophilia will likely be all the Catholic church is commonly known for into the future as well...

[Christodoulos]

The corruption of the catholic church drips down and contaminates even the people sitting in church.
You do not accidentally end up taking part in the general conspiracy (common in the church membership) to look the other way when little children are being abused, you have to make a conscious decision to be part of it.

it's a moral choice...

You have to willingly put aside what you know is the right thing to do, and take upon yourself the yoke of denial...

This is how you end up with a Church that for the past few generations has really accomplished nothing except becoming good at moving molesters from one church to the next, thus allowing the abuse to continue.
It really is a systemic problem that is not just part of the church's past, but the sad fact is, that this is still with us to this very day.

And given latest well-known court case that still shows the reluctance of the church to identify known perpetrators, pedophilia will likely be all the Catholic church is commonly known for into the future as well...

Unfortunately everything you stated is false.

If true I would totally agree. The membership is not putting up with this scandal ;given the numbers which have defected.

You need to face reality to see that this problem is systemic among all denominations . The Cath are the biggest target .

And I would agree ,they claim a higher morality ,which is why they appear as bad and black as the media makes them out to be. You mention ,cover up. Which church does NOT engage in cover ups?

read about the scandal going on right now in the 7 day adventist church.

reads like something right out of the Vatican .. you need to get real and face the cold reality of daylight.

[alanmolstad]

like I said.....pointing to others goes all the way back to the garden...........and it pops up here too...from time to time.

[Christodoulos]

.......and it pops up here too...from time to time.

nothing new there... the problem everyone faces is not being able to understand the nature of the church.

The truth is we don't have a church;there is none .

What we have are many thousands of different and competing denominations.

This problem goes back to the origins of the church. And do you know who created the above ground , visible, bricks and mortar church ?
Let me know what your answer is..

[alanmolstad]

And do you know who created the above ground , visible, bricks and mortar church ?
Let me know what your answer is..

2nd Samuel 7:2

[alanmolstad]

once again ....no one posts when I have free time...

[Christodoulos]

once again ....no one posts when I have free time...

Do you often speak in riddles?

[cheachea]

Christodoulos are you Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Ethiopian Orthodox or Coptic Orthodox ?

[Christodoulos]

2nd Samuel 7:2

Irrelevant..pure deflection... answer the question ,now!

[alanmolstad]

2nd Samuel 7:2

[cheachea]

I guess I'm on Christodoulos' ignore list.

[Christodoulos]

2nd Samuel 7:2

So,why don't you tell me in your own words what I'm supposed to know..go ahead ,be my guest. I mean ,can't you put two sentences together or two thoughts.? give me a break.

[cheachea]

You give Christodoulos the answer but he just doesn't listen. It's sad really. The same thing happened in his Exodus thread.

[alanmolstad]

You give Christodoulos the answer but he just doesn't listen. It's sad really. The same thing happened in his Exodus thread.I see......its to be expected then I guess....

[disciple]

nothing new there... the problem everyone faces is not being able to understand the nature of the church.

The truth is we don't have a church;there is none .

What we have are many thousands of different and competing denominations.

This problem goes back to the origins of the church. And do you know who created the above ground , visible, bricks and mortar church ?
Let me know what your answer is..

"The New Testament speaks of a large church in Jerusalem meeting together in a public space (e.g., the outer court of the temple in Acts 2:46) and in smaller groups in houses (e.g., the house of Mary, mother of Mark, in Acts 12:12). This practice must have been carried on in many cities of the Roman empire. For the most part, the church was dependent on members or supporters (patrons) who owned larger houses, providing a place for meeting. In Rome, there are indications that early Christians met in other public spaces such as warehouses or apartment buildings. Before Emperor Constantine recognized Christianity as a legal religion in 313, corporate ownership of property by the church could be legally ambiguous. Unless claims for recent discoveries of early Christian meeting places are confirmed, the earliest building certainly devoted to Christian use is at Dura Europos on the Euphrates River in eastern Roman Syria. It was a house that came into Christian possession and was remodeled in the 240s. Two rooms were combined to form the ***embly room, and another room became a baptistery—the only room decorated with pictures. Dura was destroyed by the S***anian Persians in 256, so the house's use as a church was short-lived.
The church's house at Dura represents an intermediate stage between meeting in members' houses or other suitable places, and constructing buildings specifically for church meetings. There are literary references to separate church buildings from the end of the second century and through the third century, but it is uncertain whether these were existing structures remodeled for church use, like the house at Dura, or new constructions. We have archaeological evidence of halls being built for church meetings at the end of the third and beginning of the fourth century. The great era of church buildings began with Constantine's patronage of the church in the fourth century. He commissioned basilicas to signal his support of the new religion and to advertise his reign."
Copied from Christian History written by Everett Ferguson

[Christodoulos]

"The New Testament speaks of a large church in Jerusalem meeting together in a public space (e.g., the outer court of the temple in Acts 2:46) and in smaller groups in houses (e.g., the house of Mary, mother of Mark, in Acts 12:12). This practice must have been carried on in many cities of the Roman empire. For the most part, the church was dependent on members or supporters (patrons) who owned larger houses, providing a place for meeting. In Rome, there are indications that early Christians met in other public spaces such as warehouses or apartment buildings. Before Emperor Constantine recognized Christianity as a legal religion in 313, corporate ownership of property by the church could be legally ambiguous. Unless claims for recent discoveries of early Christian meeting places are confirmed, the earliest building certainly devoted to Christian use is at Dura Europos on the Euphrates River in eastern Roman Syria. It was a house that came into Christian possession and was remodeled in the 240s. Two rooms were combined to form the ***embly room, and another room became a baptistery—the only room decorated with pictures. Dura was destroyed by the S***anian Persians in 256, so the house's use as a church was short-lived.
The church's house at Dura represents an intermediate stage between meeting in members' houses or other suitable places, and constructing buildings specifically for church meetings. There are literary references to separate church buildings from the end of the second century and through the third century, but it is uncertain whether these were existing structures remodeled for church use, like the house at Dura, or new constructions. We have archaeological evidence of halls being built for church meetings at the end of the third and beginning of the fourth century. The great era of church buildings began with Constantine's patronage of the church in the fourth century. He commissioned basilicas to signal his support of the new religion and to advertise his reign."
Copied from Christian History written by Everett Ferguson

Yeah, the visible church was the work of Constantine. .. And have we strayed from his edicts?

[cheachea]

Yeah, the visible church was the work of Constantine. .. And have we strayed from his edicts?



So are you saying that you are a Christian ?

[Christodoulos]

what part of ignore don't you understand? Don't break the forum rules.

[cheachea]

what part of ignore don't you understand? Don't break the forum rules.


OK so you are ignoring me then ?

[cheachea]

If that is the case then you specifically have to click on my name and then add me to your ignore list. Some how you were able to read my question.

[Christodoulos]

OK so you are ignoring me then ?

Yes , I'm ignoring you ,so why don't you be a good christian and quit stalking me and quit breaking the rules of the forum.

[cheachea]

Yes , I'm ignoring you ,so why don't you be a good christian and quit stalking me and quit breaking the rules of the forum.

Well, you actually have to put me on your ignore list if you really want to ignore me.

[Christodoulos]

Well, you actually have to put me on your ignore list if you really want to ignore me.

I don't care how you spend your time ... it's funny how your mind works .. there are many others just like you in the world.. desperate people in search of something.

[cheachea]

I don't care how you spend your time ... it's funny how your mind works .. there are many others just like you in the world.. desperate people in search of something.

So, I guess you are not really going to ignore me.

[Christodoulos]

So, I guess you are not really going to ignore me.

why would i ignore you? I mean you' have the mind of a genius.

[cheachea]

why would i ignore you? I mean you' have the mind of a genius.



Now you're using sarcasm to insult me. I haven't insulted you.

[Christodoulos]

calling you a genius is an insult?

[cheachea]

calling you a genius is an insult?



Doing it in a sarcastic way is.

[Christodoulos]

Doing it in a sarcastic way is.


Everything you have just written is Nonsense and slander against a Godly Man. Are you trying to Troll these forums ?

Your whole rant is nothing but Lies Upon Lies. Sound familiar? enjoy your double talk.

[cheachea]

Everything you have just written is Nonsense and slander against a Godly Man. Are you trying to Troll these forums ?

Your whole rant is nothing but Lies Upon Lies. Sound familiar? enjoy your double talk.



I wasn't insulting you. I was telling you the truth.

* You are trolling
* You are slandering a Godly Man(Ken Ham)
* You are posting nonsense and lies upon lies

[Christodoulos]

I wasn't insulting you. I was telling you the truth.

* You are trolling
* You are slandering a Godly Man(Ken Ham)
* You are posting nonsense and lies upon lies

And the same with me . You are a great genius . A mind of pure brilliance. And that's the truth.

[cheachea]

And the same with me . You are a great genius . A mind of pure brilliance. And that's the truth.



Don't use sarcasm or use p***ive aggression. Just be direct. I confronted your lies and slander, but you don't want to reply or give a re****al.

[Christodoulos]

Don't use sarcasm or use p***ive aggression. Just be direct. I confronted your lies and slander, but you don't want to reply or give a re****al.

how exactly did you do that? be direct.

[cheachea]

how exactly did you do that? be direct.

I pointed out that you were slandering Ken ham.

[John T]

.

WOW! that must be a WM record. The poster was here for less than 60 days, and is now banned. I cannot say that I will miss him.

[alanmolstad]

and.......we move on.....

[MacG]

Reminded me a little of Jean Chauvin or how ever you spell it.

[cheachea]

I hope when new people join the forum they give us a little background on what they believe and why they are here, so everyone knows where they're coming from and knows there motives for being on the forum.

[alanmolstad]

Learning to play by the rules. ...being in a good mood...showing respect. ...All helpful here...manners matter. ..

[alanmolstad]

Those who helped to usher in the Protestant reformation may have been well intentioned but history proves that the final results of their works have been a disaster for the Christian Faith in general.

Had Luther simply worked to reform the Catholic Church and had he worked as diligently to expose the corruption and the false teachings of this behemoth of an organization ,he would've done a prodigious work.

The problem with Luther was that in the beginning he was on a good course but overtime he became as corrupted and power hungry as any of the most corrupted popes in history,

All this aside, the biggest fallacy Luther can be blamed for ,is the sola scritura or scripture only idea.

This one precept is responsible for the thousands of divisions existing in Christendom and has weakened the church and everything it stands for.
And has also allowed six day creationists to trick and deceive millions.

I dont think you really understand the true history of how Luther really did try, , and try very hard, to change the Catholic church from within.

At the beginning Luther had no idea that it would lead to a split within the church.

But as time went along, what became clear is that the Catholic church was so taken over by bad leadership, and that the grab for more money to pay for building programs by the Catholic church had started to interfere with teachings, that there needed to be someone to stand up and say "Thats enough"

If you read the list of things that Luther nailed to the church door, you find that most all of the things were talking about the manner the Catholic church was getting money from people.
Very little was about doctrine.

[DrDavidT]

What people tend to forget is that neither Calvin or Luther wrote inspired words from God. They did not have new revelations and their words do not trump God's.