PDA

View Full Version : Eternal Security



disciple
10-16-2014, 10:53 AM
Eternal Security is an interesting topic and of course it must start with salvation. I think most believers agree on what true salvation is but many disagree on the security of the believer. If we look at how Jesus viewed salvation, and we can because we have the Gospels, we have salvation from God's viewpoint - which is a far more advantageous place to view things from. Look at what Jesus said;
“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.” John 6:37-39
Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. He went on to say, “ But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.” John 6:64-65
So from the divine viewpoint, we see that believers are actually a gift from the Father, to the Son. It is the Father that enables people to come to Jesus to be saved. And not only that, but of those that the Father gives Jesus, He has specifically said that He will lose none, not one. Jesus will not lose any believers that the Father gives Him. He will lose none, but will raise them all up on the last day.

Ok, some people will say we cannot be snatched out of his hand but can we decide to leave? Firstly, would a truly born-again believer ever want to lose his salvation? And secondly, if for some strange reason a person did want 'to leave', where could they go to get away from the one who now indwells them until the day of redemption? I personally do not believe that a true born again believer would ever 'want to leave' or lose their salvation. The fruit of a true salvation is shown by the fact that they do persevere to the end. When some who followed Jesus began to leave because they thought His teaching was too hard, Jesus asked the apostles if they would leave also. Peter answered this way, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:68-69
What believer who realized his need for a Savior, and you must realize that need, would walk away? This does not mean that there are not times of doubt, or even backsliding in the life of a true believer, but God does not stop working in the lives of such people and the Holy Spirit does not leave them. I welcome your comments.

Saxon
10-17-2014, 09:36 PM
Eternal Security is an interesting topic and of course it must start with salvation. I think most believers agree on what true salvation is but many disagree on the security of the believer. If we look at how Jesus viewed salvation, and we can because we have the Gospels, we have salvation from God's viewpoint - which is a far more advantageous place to view things from. Look at what Jesus said;

“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.” John 6:37-39

Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. He went on to say, “ But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.” John 6:64-65

So from the divine viewpoint, we see that believers are actually a gift from the Father, to the Son. It is the Father that enables people to come to Jesus to be saved. And not only that, but of those that the Father gives Jesus, He has specifically said that He will lose none, not one. Jesus will not lose any believers that the Father gives Him. He will lose none, but will raise them all up on the last day.

You are still barking up the wrong tree. The scripture is totally clear that Jesus will lose none that the Father has given him. Jesus losing the saved is not the problem. The problem is made clear in Hebrews 3:12. The problem is Christians departing from the living God. The longer you keep looking at what God has already said won’t happen the less likely you will come to realize what the problem actually is.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.




Ok, some people will say we cannot be snatched out of his hand but can we decide to leave? Firstly, would a truly born-again believer ever want to lose his salvation? And secondly, if for some strange reason a person did want 'to leave', where could they go to get away from the one who now indwells them until the day of redemption? I personally do not believe that a true born again believer would ever 'want to leave' or lose their salvation. The fruit of a true salvation is shown by the fact that they do persevere to the end. When some who followed Jesus began to leave because they thought His teaching was too hard, Jesus asked the apostles if they would leave also. Peter answered this way, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:68-69

What believer who realized his need for a Savior, and you must realize that need, would walk away? This does not mean that there are not times of doubt, or even backsliding in the life of a true believer, but God does not stop working in the lives of such people and the Holy Spirit does not leave them. I welcome your comments.

When a person is a believer they do not want to lose their salvation. There is a devil that is out there trying to deceive and deceiving those that believe. It is the lost that are already deceived but the saved are the targets for deception. (See Deuteronomy 11:16, Luke 21:8, and 2 Timothy 3:13) If it were not possible for the saved to be deceived, then why the warnings to Christians to be not deceived? 1 Peter 5:8 warns us that the devil is out to devour anyone that he can. The lost are already devoured.

The Christians that are the saved at the first resurrection did persevere to the end but there those that started off but did not persevere to the end. Luke 8:13 states this clearly. They received the word with joy and after a while they fall away.

When they fall away the Holy Spirit leaves them as they are not saved any longer. There is no scripture that says the Holy Spirit will stay in a person that has gone back to sin. The Holy Spirit will continue to convict that person that has fallen away but he does not dwell in sinners.

Deuteronomy 11:16 Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and ye turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them;

Luke 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

disciple
10-20-2014, 05:44 AM
You are still barking up the wrong tree. The scripture is totally clear that Jesus will lose none that the Father has given him. Jesus losing the saved is not the problem. The problem is made clear in Hebrews 3:12. The problem is Christians departing from the living God. The longer you keep looking at what God has already said won’t happen the less likely you will come to realize what the problem actually is.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.





When a person is a believer they do not want to lose their salvation. There is a devil that is out there trying to deceive and deceiving those that believe. It is the lost that are already deceived but the saved are the targets for deception. (See Deuteronomy 11:16, Luke 21:8, and 2 Timothy 3:13) If it were not possible for the saved to be deceived, then why the warnings to Christians to be not deceived? 1 Peter 5:8 warns us that the devil is out to devour anyone that he can. The lost are already devoured.

The Christians that are the saved at the first resurrection did persevere to the end but there those that started off but did not persevere to the end. Luke 8:13 states this clearly. They received the word with joy and after a while they fall away.

When they fall away the Holy Spirit leaves them as they are not saved any longer. There is no scripture that says the Holy Spirit will stay in a person that has gone back to sin. The Holy Spirit will continue to convict that person that has fallen away but he does not dwell in sinners.

Deuteronomy 11:16 Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and ye turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them;

Luke 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Hi Saxon and thanks for your reply.
Ok so just so I am clear, are you saying that the responsability for staying saved lies soley with the Christian? It seems you believe that God will not take salvation away nor will Jesus lose any that are given to Him, so the only other conclusion is that a Christian becomes lost again by something he does. Is this correct?

Saxon
10-20-2014, 01:41 PM
If a person stops being a Christian, as in departing from the living God. (See Hebrews 3:12)

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

disciple
10-21-2014, 05:53 AM
If a person stops being a Christian, as in departing from the living God. (See Hebrews 3:12)

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Hi Saxon,
Ok lets look at the scripture you referenced but with verses 13-14 also to see the complete thought.
“Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end”

Ask yourself this question: If verse 14 says, "We have become partakers of Christ [in the past], if we [in the future] hold fast our ***urance," then what conclusion should we draw if we do not hold fast our ***urance (in the past)? I believe the answer is: Then we have not become partakers of Christ. It would be wrong to say, "If we do not hold fast our ***urance, then even though we were once partakers of Christ, nevertheless now we lose our part in Christ." That is the opposite of what this verse says. It says, We have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast our ***urance to the end; and if we do not hold fast to our ***urance to the end, then we have not become a partaker of Christ. Not holding fast to our ***urance does not make us lose our salvation; it shows that we were not truly saved.

In other words persevering in faith and hope, holding fast to your confidence in God, is not a way to keep from losing your standing in Christ; it is a way of showing that you have a standing in Christ. That standing can never be lost, because you have it by the free grace of God, and because Christ has promised with a covenant and an oath to keep those who are his. Hebrews 6:17-20 says this,
“God also bound himself with an oath, so that those who received the promise could be perfectly sure that he would never change his mind. So God has given both his promise and his oath. These two things are unchangeable because it is impossible for God to lie. Therefore, we who have fled to him for refuge can have great confidence as we hold to the hope that lies before us. This hope is a strong and trustworthy anchor for our souls. It leads us through the curtain into God’s inner sanctuary. Jesus has already gone in there for us. He has become our eternal High Priest in the order of Melchizedek.”

Saxon
10-22-2014, 07:52 AM
Hi Saxon,
Ok lets look at the scripture you referenced but with verses 13-14 also to see the complete thought.
“Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end”

Ask yourself this question: If verse 14 says, "We have become partakers of Christ [in the past], if we [in the future] hold fast our ***urance," then what conclusion should we draw if we do not hold fast our ***urance (in the past)? I believe the answer is: Then we have not become partakers of Christ. It would be wrong to say, "If we do not hold fast our ***urance, then even though we were once partakers of Christ, nevertheless now we lose our part in Christ." That is the opposite of what this verse says. It says, We have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast our ***urance to the end; and if we do not hold fast to our ***urance to the end, then we have not become a partaker of Christ. Not holding fast to our ***urance does not make us lose our salvation; it shows that we were not truly saved.

In other words persevering in faith and hope, holding fast to your confidence in God, is not a way to keep from losing your standing in Christ; it is a way of showing that you have a standing in Christ. That standing can never be lost, because you have it by the free grace of God, and because Christ has promised with a covenant and an oath to keep those who are his. Hebrews 6:17-20 says this,
“God also bound himself with an oath, so that those who received the promise could be perfectly sure that he would never change his mind. So God has given both his promise and his oath. These two things are unchangeable because it is impossible for God to lie. Therefore, we who have fled to him for refuge can have great confidence as we hold to the hope that lies before us. This hope is a strong and trustworthy anchor for our souls. It leads us through the curtain into God’s inner sanctuary. Jesus has already gone in there for us. He has become our eternal High Priest in the order of Melchizedek.”

It cannot mean that we have not become partakers of Christ because the text is clearly stating that we have become partakers of Christ. If we hold fast our confidence steadfast to the end is the condition of salvation. If we do not hold steadfast our confidence to the end it is because we or they have departed from the living God. You cannot depart from where you never were.

You stated, “In other words persevering in faith and hope, holding fast to your confidence in God, is not a way to keep from losing your standing in Christ”. I ask you, why is it not? After all it is telling us to hold steadfast to our confidence. If you do not hold steadfast to our confidence doesn’t mean you didn’t have it, it means you let go of what you had.

Just because something is given as a gift does not mean that you can’t lose it. You seem to still be hinting that God some how takes salvation away from you if YOU lose it. We have gone over this before; God does not take back salvation. We are the ones that depart from the living God. We are the problem and we are the ones that do the losing by way of departing from the living God. Christ does keep those that are his. If we depart from the living God then we are no longer his. We are not prisoners and God does not force anyone to come to him or stay with him. You don’t seem to absorb the fact that Christians can and do depart from the living God. (See Hebrews 3:12) As long as you remain in Christ you are eternally secure. If you depart from the living God you are no longer eternally secure as you have departed from eternal life that is in his son. (See 1John 5:11)


Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Hebrews 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Hebrews 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Hebrews 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

1John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

disciple
10-23-2014, 06:47 AM
It cannot mean that we have not become partakers of Christ because the text is clearly stating that we have become partakers of Christ. If we hold fast our confidence steadfast to the end is the condition of salvation. If we do not hold steadfast our confidence to the end it is because we or they have departed from the living God. You cannot depart from where you never were.

You stated, “In other words persevering in faith and hope, holding fast to your confidence in God, is not a way to keep from losing your standing in Christ”. I ask you, why is it not? After all it is telling us to hold steadfast to our confidence. If you do not hold steadfast to our confidence doesn’t mean you didn’t have it, it means you let go of what you had.

Just because something is given as a gift does not mean that you can’t lose it. You seem to still be hinting that God some how takes salvation away from you if YOU lose it. We have gone over this before; God does not take back salvation. We are the ones that depart from the living God. We are the problem and we are the ones that do the losing by way of departing from the living God. Christ does keep those that are his. If we depart from the living God then we are no longer his. We are not prisoners and God does not force anyone to come to him or stay with him. You don’t seem to absorb the fact that Christians can and do depart from the living God. (See Hebrews 3:12) As long as you remain in Christ you are eternally secure. If you depart from the living God you are no longer eternally secure as you have departed from eternal life that is in his son. (See 1John 5:11)


Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Hebrews 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Hebrews 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Hebrews 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

1John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

Hi Saxon,
"No one else can pluck them away, but a believer himself can do it." Think about what you are purposing; that a true Christian has more power than anyone else in the universe. No one, and that includes the sheep can remove himself from the Shepherd's strong grip. In view of such ***urance, it is odd that people should surmise that a true sheep of Christ could or would decide that he doesn't want to be a sheep any longer, and could remove himself from his Father's hand. The argument will not stand. The words "no one" are absolute. They do not allow for any exception. The inspired text does not say "no one except the christian himself" - and neither should we.'

Saxon
10-23-2014, 08:26 AM
Hi Saxon,
"No one else can pluck them away, but a believer himself can do it." Think about what you are purposing; that a true Christian has more power than anyone else in the universe. No one, and that includes the sheep can remove himself from the Shepherd's strong grip. In view of such ***urance, it is odd that people should surmise that a true sheep of Christ could or would decide that he doesn't want to be a sheep any longer, and could remove himself from his Father's hand. The argument will not stand. The words "no one" are absolute. They do not allow for any exception. The inspired text does not say "no one except the christian himself" - and neither should we.'

The verses that you are looking at, John 10:28 and 29 are quite clear on what they are saying. Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. No man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. Jesus is clearly speaking of one person plucking another person out of his hand or the Father’s hand. It is totally impossible. What is possible is for a person to depart from the living God. (See Hebrews 3:12) What is possible is for a person to be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. (See Hebrews 3:13) What is possible is for a person to let go of the beginning of our confidence before the end. (See Hebrews 3:14)

Why would anyone think that a Christian has more power than any on else in the universe when in John 10:29 Jesus states that the Father is greater than all?

If a sheep cannot remove himself from the Shepherd's strong grip, what is the purpose of the parable of the LOST sheep? Is Jesus talking about nothing or just to hear himself talk?

Did you not read the following when I last addressed the thought that a Christian would decide to depart from the living God? It is the same answer.

When a person is a believer they do not want to lose their salvation. There is a devil that is out there trying to deceive and deceiving those that believe. It is the lost that are already deceived but the saved are the targets for deception. (See Deuteronomy 11:16, Luke 21:8, and 2 Timothy 3:13) If it were not possible for the saved to be deceived, then why the warnings to Christians to be not deceived? 1 Peter 5:8 warns us that the devil is out to devour anyone that he can. The lost are already devoured.
The Christians that are the saved at the first resurrection did persevere to the end but there those that started off but did not persevere to the end. Luke 8:13 states this clearly. They received the word with joy and after a while they fall away.

When they fall away the Holy Spirit leaves them as they are not saved any longer. There is no scripture that says the Holy Spirit will stay in a person that has gone back to sin. The Holy Spirit will continue to convict that person that has fallen away but he does not dwell in sinners.

People do not decide to not be sheep anymore, they die. The wages of sin is still death, not a change of species.

It is unfortunate that you are not willing to hold fast to the words of Hebrews 3:12 as tight as you do when you take “no one” out of context and cling to that to support the unsupportable OSAS false doctrine.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Hebrews 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Hebrews 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Deuteronomy 11:16 Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and ye turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them;

Luke 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

disciple
10-23-2014, 09:14 AM
The verses that you are looking at, John 10:28 and 29 are quite clear on what they are saying. Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. No man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. Jesus is clearly speaking of one person plucking another person out of his hand or the Father’s hand. It is totally impossible. What is possible is for a person to depart from the living God. (See Hebrews 3:12) What is possible is for a person to be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. (See Hebrews 3:13) What is possible is for a person to let go of the beginning of our confidence before the end. (See Hebrews 3:14)

Why would anyone think that a Christian has more power than any on else in the universe when in John 10:29 Jesus states that the Father is greater than all?

If a sheep cannot remove himself from the Shepherd's strong grip, what is the purpose of the parable of the LOST sheep? Is Jesus talking about nothing or just to hear himself talk?

Did you not read the following when I last addressed the thought that a Christian would decide to depart from the living God? It is the same answer.

When a person is a believer they do not want to lose their salvation. There is a devil that is out there trying to deceive and deceiving those that believe. It is the lost that are already deceived but the saved are the targets for deception. (See Deuteronomy 11:16, Luke 21:8, and 2 Timothy 3:13) If it were not possible for the saved to be deceived, then why the warnings to Christians to be not deceived? 1 Peter 5:8 warns us that the devil is out to devour anyone that he can. The lost are already devoured.
The Christians that are the saved at the first resurrection did persevere to the end but there those that started off but did not persevere to the end. Luke 8:13 states this clearly. They received the word with joy and after a while they fall away.

When they fall away the Holy Spirit leaves them as they are not saved any longer. There is no scripture that says the Holy Spirit will stay in a person that has gone back to sin. The Holy Spirit will continue to convict that person that has fallen away but he does not dwell in sinners.

People do not decide to not be sheep anymore, they die. The wages of sin is still death, not a change of species.

It is unfortunate that you are not willing to hold fast to the words of Hebrews 3:12 as tight as you do when you take “no one” out of context and cling to that to support the unsupportable OSAS false doctrine.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Hebrews 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Hebrews 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Deuteronomy 11:16 Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and ye turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them;

Luke 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Hi Saxon,

So it's your position that the Christian is totally responsable for keeping himself saved. No verse in the Bible makes that true. The lost sheep in the parable is not someone who was saved and lost it is somesone who has yet to come to Christ.
You said,"When they fall away the Holy Spirit leaves them as they are not saved any longer. The Holy Spirit will continue to convict that person that has fallen away but he does not dwell in sinners." So even after reading Romans you believe this? Would you like to take a guess on how many times the Apostle Paul was saved and lost? He called himself the chief of sinners, how many times do you think the Holy Spirit left him? If the Holy Spirit does not dwell in sinners do you believe that every time you sin the Holy Spirit leaves? There is no scriptural bases for this kind of thinking at least not in correct context.

Saxon
10-23-2014, 12:48 PM
Hi Saxon,

So it's your position that the Christian is totally responsable for keeping himself saved. No verse in the Bible makes that true. The lost sheep in the parable is not someone who was saved and lost it is somesone who has yet to come to Christ.

As far as keeping one saved it is Christ that saves and keeps you saved. We, as Christians are responsible to be the Christians that we were created in Christ Jesus to be. (See Ephesians 2:8 to 10) Verse 10 says that we were created in Christ Jesus to do good works. If we are not obedient to God we are sinning. The wages of sin is death. That hasn’t changed yet.

Either it is a sheep or it is not a sheep. In your last post you were adamant that a sheep could not change and you were saying that in the context of a sheep representing the saved. Now, in that same context the sheep that was lost isn’t a sheep yet. You better read it again and I am sure you will find that the shepherd was a shepherd looking after sheep and one sheep got lost and he went to find it. If you have to change the story to support OSAS you better also take a look and see if OSAS is even in the Bible. It isn’t.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


You said,"When they fall away the Holy Spirit leaves them as they are not saved any longer. The Holy Spirit will continue to convict that person that has fallen away but he does not dwell in sinners." So even after reading Romans you believe this? Would you like to take a guess on how many times the Apostle Paul was saved and lost? He called himself the chief of sinners, how many times do you think the Holy Spirit left him? If the Holy Spirit does not dwell in sinners do you believe that every time you sin the Holy Spirit leaves? There is no scriptural bases for this kind of thinking at least not in correct context.

Why do you have to go on to this ridicules rant about what did not even happen. We know that Paul died in the faith and was saved in Christ. Who really cares how many times he was lost and resaved? Chances are he was in touch with God and knew that he was a sinner as you have pointed out and he also knew that he had to be right with God so he was seeking repentance and forgiveness because he knew that this was HIS responsibility to confess his sins. Read 1John chapter 1. Pay attention to verse 9. By the way, 1John was written to Christians as was the whole Bible.

disciple
10-23-2014, 01:12 PM
Saxon, you said,"As far as keeping one saved it is Christ that saves and keeps you saved. We, as Christians are responsible to be the Christians that we were created in Christ Jesus to be. (See Ephesians 2:8 to 10) Verse 10 says that we were created in Christ Jesus to do good works. If we are not obedient to God we are sinning. The wages of sin is death. That hasn’t changed yet."
I agree with all of that and if Christ keeps you saved you can't lose your salvation. Jesus paid the penalty for all our sins so we have p***ed from death to life.
Remember Romans 8:1-2 "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death."
And I don't appreciate you calling me ridiculous, I have been respectful to all your comments.

disciple
10-24-2014, 05:42 AM
This is why we can have ***urance even though we stumble.
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." 1 Peter 1:3-5

Saxon
10-24-2014, 01:30 PM
Saxon, you said,"As far as keeping one saved it is Christ that saves and keeps you saved. We, as Christians are responsible to be the Christians that we were created in Christ Jesus to be. (See Ephesians 2:8 to 10) Verse 10 says that we were created in Christ Jesus to do good works. If we are not obedient to God we are sinning. The wages of sin is death. That hasn’t changed yet."
I agree with all of that and if Christ keeps you saved you can't lose your salvation. Jesus paid the penalty for all our sins so we have p***ed from death to life.
Remember Romans 8:1-2 "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death."
And I don't appreciate you calling me ridiculous, I have been respectful to all your comments.

"Why do you have to go on to this ridiculous rant about what did not even happen." Please notice that I called the “rant” ridiculous, not you. I never intended to call you any kind of derogatory name or besmirch your mentality. But because I have given you that impression I do apologize and ask you to forgive me for my insensibility towards you.

Yes it is Christ that keeps us but we are still responsible to not wander off like the sheep that got lost. We must not depart from the living God as Hebrews 3:12 continues to tell us. Salvation is conditional. As long as we are “in Christ” we have no condemnation and we will remain saved. Salvation is in his Son, if you depart you leave salvation and all the benefits behind, you are without Christ and salvation.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Saxon
10-24-2014, 01:50 PM
This is why we can have ***urance even though we stumble.
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." 1 Peter 1:3-5


We are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation, just as we are saved by grace through faith. In both instances if there is no faith there is no salvation. After we are saved we must remain faithful.

disciple
10-27-2014, 05:51 AM
We are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation, just as we are saved by grace through faith. In both instances if there is no faith there is no salvation. After we are saved we must remain faithful.

Saxon you miss the point, the saved do remain faithful.
I John 2:19: “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.” This verse is very clear. John is not talking about saved people who have now lost their salvation, but people who were never saved at all. He is stressing if they had been saved they would still be with us. The proof of the believer is his continuance. False professors fall out by the way. Had they been true believers they would have continued.

Saxon
10-27-2014, 10:05 AM
Saxon you miss the point, the saved do remain faithful.
I John 2:19: “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.” This verse is very clear. John is not talking about saved people who have now lost their salvation, but people who were never saved at all. He is stressing if they had been saved they would still be with us. The proof of the believer is his continuance. False professors fall out by the way. Had they been true believers they would have continued.

“John is not talking about saved people who have now lost their salvation, but people who were never saved at all.” How do you know this? The text does not say if they were lost remaining lost or if they were saved and departed from the loving God. "They went out from us, but they were not of us" only indicates that at the time of departure they were “not of us”.

The only way that there is to say what you are saying is to believe OSAS is true, therefore they were never saved. This is circular reasoning. You have to prove that OSAS is true. Up to this point you have not proven any such thing. It is up to you to explain what the following few verses really mean in the light of OSAS.


Ezekiel 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
John 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
John 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
John 15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
John 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
John 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Romans 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Romans 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

As long as there are verses like this in the Old and New Testament there is no room to even think that OSAS is even viable to be related to the Bible let alone be found in the Bible. It is your turn to explain scripture in support of your belief in OSAS. Start with some of these.

“False professors fall out by the way. Had they been true believers they would have continued”. What?? What has a false professor to fall out from? Think about it, if they were not real then they were never there to fall out in the first place.

disciple
10-27-2014, 11:32 AM
“John is not talking about saved people who have now lost their salvation, but people who were never saved at all.” How do you know this? The text does not say if they were lost remaining lost or if they were saved and departed from the loving God. "They went out from us, but they were not of us" only indicates that at the time of departure they were “not of us”.

The only way that there is to say what you are saying is to believe OSAS is true, therefore they were never saved. This is circular reasoning. You have to prove that OSAS is true. Up to this point you have not proven any such thing. It is up to you to explain what the following few verses really mean in the light of OSAS.


Ezekiel 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
John 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
John 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
John 15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
John 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
John 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Romans 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Romans 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

As long as there are verses like this in the Old and New Testament there is no room to even think that OSAS is even viable to be related to the Bible let alone be found in the Bible. It is your turn to explain scripture in support of your belief in OSAS. Start with some of these.

“False professors fall out by the way. Had they been true believers they would have continued”. What?? What has a false professor to fall out from? Think about it, if they were not real then they were never there to fall out in the first place.

Can those born of God leave Christ?
1John 2:19
"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us.
For if they had belonged to us, (Saved)
they would have remained with us; (Saved)
but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." (were never saved)
John indicates here that leaving indicates that one had never been born of God.

Can those born of God live a lifestyle of sin?
1John 3:6 "No one who lives in him keeps on sinning.
No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him."
According to the second part of this verse, no one who lives a lifestyle of sin had ever been a "real" Christian. He had never known Christ. He had never been born of God. Furthermore, according to the first part of this verse, of those who do "live in him" (are born of God - are real Christians) not one of them lives a lifestyle of sin. Why is that? John explains a few verses later in 1John 3:9;
"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."
Those who have been born of God have lost the ability to live a lifestyle of sin because God's seed (the Holy Spirit) lives in them. I think you are confusing living a sinful lifestyle with stumbling and committing a sin occasionally.

Saxon
10-27-2014, 01:47 PM
Can those born of God leave Christ?
1John 2:19
"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us.
For if they had belonged to us, (Saved)
they would have remained with us; (Saved)
but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." (were never saved)
John indicates here that leaving indicates that one had never been born of God.

Leaving what?? The lost cannot leave as they were not there to leave. Only the saved can leave Christ because they are the only ones that are there to leave from there.

John cannot be indicating that leaving indicates that they had never been born again because they could not have left Christ if they were never with him.




Can those born of God live a lifestyle of sin?
1John 3:6 "No one who lives in him keeps on sinning.
No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him."
According to the second part of this verse, no one who lives a lifestyle of sin had ever been a "real" Christian. He had never known Christ. He had never been born of God. Furthermore, according to the first part of this verse, of those who do "live in him" (are born of God - are real Christians) not one of them lives a lifestyle of sin. Why is that? John explains a few verses later in 1John 3:9;
"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."
Those who have been born of God have lost the ability to live a lifestyle of sin because God's seed (the Holy Spirit) lives in them. I think you are confusing living a sinful lifestyle with stumbling and committing a sin occasionally.

John is correct; No one who lives in him keeps on sinning and that is because they are in him. You are speaking of lifestyle and a person that IS in Christ is not living a lifestyle of sin. Still Christians do sin. If they neglect to follow 1John 1:9 they will slip out of Christ, depart from the living God (See Hebrews 3:12). There is no other explanation for the warnings such as I gave you a few samples of in my last post that you do not seem willing to comment on. You are right in your quote of 1John 3:9, One born of God cannot go on sinning because the wages of sin is death and one that keeps on sinning will soon find out that the wages of sin IS death. Nothing changes in the Word of God.

Those who have been born of God have not lost the ability to live a lifestyle of sin, they have been told not to and have been given the reason not to; because the Holy Spirit lives in them.

I think that you are confused because you seem to ignore the plain warnings that are in the Bible. There are a few samples in my last post that you still seem to be unwilling to comment on.


1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

disciple
10-28-2014, 05:57 AM
Leaving what?? The lost cannot leave as they were not there to leave. Only the saved can leave Christ because they are the only ones that are there to leave from there.

John cannot be indicating that leaving indicates that they had never been born again because they could not have left Christ if they were never with him.





John is correct; No one who lives in him keeps on sinning and that is because they are in him. You are speaking of lifestyle and a person that IS in Christ is not living a lifestyle of sin. Still Christians do sin. If they neglect to follow 1John 1:9 they will slip out of Christ, depart from the living God (See Hebrews 3:12). There is no other explanation for the warnings such as I gave you a few samples of in my last post that you do not seem willing to comment on. You are right in your quote of 1John 3:9, One born of God cannot go on sinning because the wages of sin is death and one that keeps on sinning will soon find out that the wages of sin IS death. Nothing changes in the Word of God.

Those who have been born of God have not lost the ability to live a lifestyle of sin, they have been told not to and have been given the reason not to; because the Holy Spirit lives in them.

I think that you are confused because you seem to ignore the plain warnings that are in the Bible. There are a few samples in my last post that you still seem to be unwilling to comment on.


1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

1 John 2:19 says nothing about anyone leaving Christ. 1 John 2:18 is talking about those who are against Christ, John writes,”even now many antichrists have come by which we know that it is the last hour”. Now verse 19, “they went out from us”, referring to the false brethern or those who were always against Christ in verse 18. Context Saxon.
Ok John 15. First, what is the context of the p***age? It refers to bearing spiritual fruit and to abiding in Christ, your relationship with Him—not to loss of salvation. Nowhere is this theme mentioned or implied. In verses 1-8, the words “fruit” and “abide” are used six times, indicating the themes and the intent of the p***age. This tells us 1) the context is of fruit bearing and 2) the “abide” cannot be about out position, but must be about our relationship. Why? Only if we are in a relationship with Christ can we produce true fruit. We do not actually produce fruit merely because of our spiritual union with Christ. The fact of this union with Christ has nothing directly to do with our choice of and responsibility to bear fruit here in this life. Clearly the one who abides in Christ relationally will bear “much fruit”; one who does not abide in Him relationally cannot bear any fruit; for verse five states clearly “apart from Me you can do nothing.” A severed walk with Christ is utterly useless to God, and in fact does not bring honor to God but dishonor. Think about the Prodigal son. In the entire p***age , only one verse is used to teach the loss of salvation: “If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.” What does the warning mean? The context seems to refer to either being put aside as to service and/or possibly the sin unto death. Certainly it tells us that if we are not abiding in Christ we are useless. Verse 11 makes no sense if Jesus has just told the disciples that they are in real danger of hell-fire if they do not abide in Him. Does what He says here make sense at all if He is warning believers of an eternal hell? It is as if He said: “If you are not extremely careful to maintain your relationship to me you will go away into eternal hell-fire. I say this that your joy may be made full.”
Consider what Jesus is saying, if we maintain our relationship with Him, that is to say obey His commands, confess our sins and repent when we fail and humble ourselves to His Lordship we will;
1. Produce “much fruit” (v. 5)
2. Glorify God (v. 8)
3. Prove our discipleship (v. 8)
4. Allow us to know and feel and be ***ured of His love for us and the Father’s love for us (v. 9-10)
5. Keep us from stumbling (16:1)
In light of this, verse 11 now makes sense: “These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may be in you and that your joy may be made full.”

Saxon
10-28-2014, 11:55 AM
1 John 2:19 says nothing about anyone leaving Christ. 1 John 2:18 is talking about those who are against Christ, John writes,”even now many antichrists have come by which we know that it is the last hour”. Now verse 19, “they went out from us”, referring to the false brethern or those who were always against Christ in verse 18. Context Saxon.

As I have said before, there is no means of determining if the ones that “left us” were the lost remaining lost or the saved reverting to their old ways such as departing from the living God. (See Hebrews 3:12)The text simply does not reveal that.

All you have for your position is OSAS is true; therefore the ones that left were never saved, circular reasoning. You are relying on an unstable doctrine to prove the Bible statement. OSAS is unstable because it is too contentious.

My position favours the idea that it is the saved returning to their old ways and departing from the living God. Fact: they were with the believers or they could not have gone out from them. You have to be at a place in order to leave it.

Once they had changed their minds they were “not of us”. Once they were not of us, they were antichrist. That is what you are if you are not a Christian and if you depart from the living God, you are no longer a Christian.

Still it is all speculation and that is why it is not a verse that will determine the truth of OSAS.

Is a “false brethren” really any kind of brethren to a Christian??

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.




Ok John 15. First, what is the context of the p***age? It refers to bearing spiritual fruit and to abiding in Christ, your relationship with Him—not to loss of salvation. Nowhere is this theme mentioned or implied. In verses 1-8, the words “fruit” and “abide” are used six times, indicating the themes and the intent of the p***age. This tells us 1) the context is of fruit bearing and 2) the “abide” cannot be about out position, but must be about our relationship. Why? Only if we are in a relationship with Christ can we produce true fruit. We do not actually produce fruit merely because of our spiritual union with Christ. The fact of this union with Christ has nothing directly to do with our choice of and responsibility to bear fruit here in this life. Clearly the one who abides in Christ relationally will bear “much fruit”; one who does not abide in Him relationally cannot bear any fruit; for verse five states clearly “apart from Me you can do nothing.” A severed walk with Christ is utterly useless to God, and in fact does not bring honor to God but dishonor. Think about the Prodigal son. In the entire p***age , only one verse is used to teach the loss of salvation: “If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.” What does the warning mean? The context seems to refer to either being put aside as to service and/or possibly the sin unto death. Certainly it tells us that if we are not abiding in Christ we are useless. Verse 11 makes no sense if Jesus has just told the disciples that they are in real danger of hell-fire if they do not abide in Him. Does what He says here make sense at all if He is warning believers of an eternal hell? It is as if He said: “If you are not extremely careful to maintain your relationship to me you will go away into eternal hell-fire. I say this that your joy may be made full.”
Consider what Jesus is saying, if we maintain our relationship with Him, that is to say obey His commands, confess our sins and repent when we fail and humble ourselves to His Lordship we will;
1. Produce “much fruit” (v. 5)
2. Glorify God (v. 8)
3. Prove our discipleship (v. 8)
4. Allow us to know and feel and be ***ured of His love for us and the Father’s love for us (v. 9-10)
5. Keep us from stumbling (16:1)
In light of this, verse 11 now makes sense: “These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may be in you and that your joy may be made full.”

All you need to do is look closely at John 15:1 and 2. Jesus is speaking. Jesus is the vine. The Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me (Jesus) that beareth not fruit he (the Father) taketh away. You cannot be in Christ Jesus and not be a Christian. All the branches, without exception, are Christians. Every branch in Christ Jesus that does not bear fruit, the husbandman (the Father) takes away. You have ignored the first two verses of John 15 to believe what you have said. OSAS is crushed.


John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

disciple
10-28-2014, 12:57 PM
Saxon the doctrine I rely on is scripture, taken in context. You are so interested in "crushing" something you don't agree with you miss the truth of scripture. Be an amb***ador for Christ Saxon not someone just looking to win an argument.

Saxon
10-28-2014, 09:04 PM
Saxon the doctrine I rely on is scripture, taken in context. You are so interested in "crushing" something you don't agree with you miss the truth of scripture. Be an amb***ador for Christ Saxon not someone just looking to win an argument.

It isn’t that I am interested in crushing something as such but I am interested in the truth. I am of the opinion that OSAS is not in scripture as it conflicts with much scripture from Genesis to Revelation. I do admit that I “miss” OSAS as far as it being scriptural. You say that the doctrine you rely on is scripture, taken in context. You have failed to show this to me in the case of OSAS. I do not doubt your sincerity in that you truly believe it but I believe that you are sincerely wrong.

The idea that I am just looking to win an argument is almost an insult but I am thick skinned and let it bounce off. The way it is between us is that we are diametrically apposed on this subject and there can only be one of us that correct. OSAS is either right or it is wrong. There can be no middle ground. Is being an amb***ador for Christ, an excuse for not proclaiming the truth as you see it to be? I think that is a betrayal to Christ that said that the truth will set you free.

We should be able to discuss this and remain at a friendly level; after all we are both Christians. I do believe that we owe it to each other to inform each other as to what we see is the truth and from the scripture, why we see it as the truth.

I do wish that you would comment on what I say so I can see better why you hold to OSAS. If I am missing the point I won’t find it unless you or someone that believes it can show me. I hope that you can say the same about me showing you what and why I believe that OSAS is not scriptural. After all we are both claiming to want the truth.

John T
10-28-2014, 09:41 PM
It isn’t that I am interested in crushing something as such but I am interested in the truth. I am of the opinion that OSAS is not in scripture as it conflicts with much scripture from Genesis to Revelation. I do admit that I “miss” OSAS as far as it being scriptural. You say that the doctrine you rely on is scripture, taken in context. You have failed to show this to me in the case of OSAS. I do not doubt your sincerity in that you truly believe it but I believe that you are sincerely wrong.

The idea that I am just looking to win an argument is almost an insult but I am thick skinned and let it bounce off. The way it is between us is that we are diametrically apposed on this subject and there can only be one of us that correct. OSAS is either right or it is wrong. There can be no middle ground. Is being an amb***ador for Christ, an excuse for not proclaiming the truth as you see it to be? I think that is a betrayal to Christ that said that the truth will set you free.

We should be able to discuss this and remain at a friendly level; after all we are both Christians. I do believe that we owe it to each other to inform each other as to what we see is the truth and from the scripture, why we see it as the truth.

I do wish that you would comment on what I say so I can see better why you hold to OSAS. If I am missing the point I won’t find it unless you or someone that believes it can show me. I hope that you can say the same about me showing you what and why I believe that OSAS is not scriptural. After all we are both claiming to want the truth.

Let's begin with a few facts:
.


There are verses such as Ephesians 1:4 that mention "predestination"
There are many such verses in the Bible
There are verses in the Bible that indicate that sometimes salvation may be forfeited such as Hebrews 6:6
There are other similar verses in the Bible
God is the Author of ALL the verses in the Bible; He did not stutter when He had Holy Spirit cause the men to write as He wanted.
The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is consistent and is a covenant making and keeping God.
God is forever calling humans to repentance, and reliance upon Jesus Christ for salvation.
Therefore because in the covenant He makes with humankind is consistent, and God is NOT schizophrenic, saying one thing here, and another thing there, ALL the verses in the Bible are friends, not enemies. And to take one set of verses and not consider the other verses is a great distortion of the whole council of God.
Finally, it is the *** of the intelligent readers and teachers of God's word to include both "sets" of Scripture and reconcile the hard-to-understand "contradictions", so we may give the whole Council of God, and not distort it like a fun house mirror.

.
Can you all see that?

For example, I see that the history of Esau in the fact that he sold his birthright for a bowl of oatmeal (must have been a Scotsman!) to be a type of what is mentioned in Hebrews 6:6. He despised what was his, and Hebrews 12:16 calls him a "fornicator" and "profane"

Yet, we who are of the Reformed persuasion forget to remember the context of that when we quote Romans 9:13 as a support for the Reformed position.
.
Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated

.
Yeah, God hated Esau for what he did. The birthright that goes to the firstborn is a type of Jesus, Whom Paul calls "The firstborn of all creation." (Colossians 1:15) yet Esau despised that privilege. So let us read Hebrews 6:6 in the light of Esau instead of making a support for Reformed theology.

John T
10-28-2014, 09:49 PM
We are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation, just as we are saved by grace through faith. In both instances if there is no faith there is no salvation. After we are saved we must remain faithful.

That is NOT what Jude says.


Jude 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Saxon
10-28-2014, 10:25 PM
That is NOT what Jude says.


Jude 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

It becomes obvious that we are kept if we continue in the faith. We are not saved to become stagnate in our lives. As Christians we are expected to be the Christians that God has created us to be, in Christ Jesus. This requires us to remain in the faith (See Acts 14:22, Colossians 1:23 and 1 Timothy 2:15)

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God

Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

1 Timothy 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety

Saxon
10-28-2014, 11:10 PM
Let's begin with a few facts:
.


1.There are verses such as Ephesians 1:4 that mention "predestination"
2.There are many such verses in the Bible
3.There are verses in the Bible that indicate that sometimes salvation may be forfeited such as Hebrews 6:6
4.There are other similar verses in the Bible
5.God is the Author of ALL the verses in the Bible; He did not stutter when He had Holy Spirit cause the men to write as He wanted.
6.The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is consistent and is a covenant making and keeping God.
7.God is forever calling humans to repentance, and reliance upon Jesus Christ for salvation.
8.Therefore because in the covenant He makes with humankind is consistent, and God is NOT schizophrenic, saying one thing here, and another thing there, ALL the verses in the Bible are friends, not enemies. And to take one set of verses and not consider the other verses is a great distortion of the whole council of God.
9.Finally, it is the *** of the intelligent readers and teachers of God's word to include both "sets" of Scripture and reconcile the hard-to-understand "contradictions", so we may give the whole Council of God, and not distort it like a fun house mirror.

.
Can you all see that?

Not only do I see it, I agree with it for the most part. You have contradictions in quotation marks. I will ***ume that you realize that there are no real contradiction in the Bible.




For example, I see that the history of Esau in the fact that he sold his birthright for a bowl of oatmeal (must have been a Scotsman!) to be a type of what is mentioned in Hebrews 6:6. He despised what was his, and Hebrews 12:16 calls him a "fornicator" and "profane"

Yet, we who are of the Reformed persuasion forget to remember the context of that when we quote as a support for the Reformed position.
.
Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated
.
Yeah, God hated Esau for what he did. The birthright that goes to the firstborn is a type of Jesus, Whom Paul calls "The firstborn of all creation." (Colossians 1:15) yet Esau despised that privilege. So let us read Hebrews 6:6 in the light of Esau instead of making a support for Reformed theology.


Romans 9:13 is a quote from Malachi 1:2 and 3. This is dealing with the decedents of Jacob and Esau. God is not saying that he hated the person of Esau from Genesis but what his decedents turned into. Hebrews 12:16 is referring to Esau from Genesis.

Hebrews 6:6 speaks of falling away and Hebrews 12:12 to 17 speaks of the lame being turned out of the way, failing the grace of God being defiled being a fornicator and profane, and in the end, rejection.

There is nothing here that seems to support OSAS.


Hebrews 12:12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
Hebrews 12:13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
Hebrews 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
Hebrews 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
Hebrews 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame

disciple
10-29-2014, 05:50 AM
It isn’t that I am interested in crushing something as such but I am interested in the truth. I am of the opinion that OSAS is not in scripture as it conflicts with much scripture from Genesis to Revelation. I do admit that I “miss” OSAS as far as it being scriptural. You say that the doctrine you rely on is scripture, taken in context. You have failed to show this to me in the case of OSAS. I do not doubt your sincerity in that you truly believe it but I believe that you are sincerely wrong.

The idea that I am just looking to win an argument is almost an insult but I am thick skinned and let it bounce off. The way it is between us is that we are diametrically apposed on this subject and there can only be one of us that correct. OSAS is either right or it is wrong. There can be no middle ground. Is being an amb***ador for Christ, an excuse for not proclaiming the truth as you see it to be? I think that is a betrayal to Christ that said that the truth will set you free.

We should be able to discuss this and remain at a friendly level; after all we are both Christians. I do believe that we owe it to each other to inform each other as to what we see is the truth and from the scripture, why we see it as the truth.

I do wish that you would comment on what I say so I can see better why you hold to OSAS. If I am missing the point I won’t find it unless you or someone that believes it can show me. I hope that you can say the same about me showing you what and why I believe that OSAS is not scriptural. After all we are both claiming to want the truth.

Hello Saxon,

My comment was not meant to insult you but to encourage you to season your words. Yes we both believe the other is incorrect and obviously without that type of friction there would be no discussion and I do believe we are brothers in Christ and should treat each other accordingly. John T made a good point, all the verses in the Bible are friends and if we misunderstand them it doesn't change their meaning. So we must take what we know to be true concerning God and go from there. In the case of eternal security, would God lie? No. Would He trick us or leave out information? No. Is salvation only for those who understand all scripture perfectly? No.
Did God ever say He would take back His gift or that we must keep ourselves saved? No. My belief that when you are saved you are saved for eternity, starts with God's character and the trust I have that He will do for me what I cannot do. He is willing and able to rescue me, adopt me into His family and to keep me in His family in spite of my failings.

John T
10-29-2014, 08:09 AM
It becomes obvious that we are kept if we continue in the faith.
That is NOT what Jude says.

Jude 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
That is NOT what Jude says.



We are not saved to become stagnate in our lives. As Christians we are expected to be the Christians that God has created us to be, in Christ Jesus. This requires us to remain in the faith (See Acts 14:22, Colossians 1:23 and 1 Timothy 2:15)

You are creating a RED HERRING because that is NOT what Jude says.

Jude 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

No one doubts what you say, but that is a distinct and different matter than what is said in Jude. (This author is the half brother of Jesus.) You are failing to use the whole council of God as you do this, and you are making the verses enemies instead of friends


Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God

Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

1 Timothy 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety

No one doubts what you say, but that is a distinct and different matter than what is said in Jude. (This author is the half brother of Jesus.) You are failing to use the whole council of God as you do this, and you are making the verses enemies instead of friends. The simple fact of the matter is that you seem to be creating an either/or situation when in fact the situation is REALLY both/and. This is what I mean by stating you are not looking at the whole council of God.

NOW can you see what I am saying?

Saxon
10-29-2014, 09:44 PM
Hello Saxon,

My comment was not meant to insult you but to encourage you to season your words. Yes we both believe the other is incorrect and obviously without that type of friction there would be no discussion and I do believe we are brothers in Christ and should treat each other accordingly. John T made a good point, all the verses in the Bible are friends and if we misunderstand them it doesn't change their meaning. So we must take what we know to be true concerning God and go from there.

I know that you don’t mean to insult me and as I said I let it go. Forgive and forget. John T’s point is totally true.




In the case of eternal security, would God lie? No.

God does not lie ever. We are the ones that are to find out what God is saying.




Would He trick us or leave out information? No.

God does not trick us but Satan is out to deceive us and we are to be careful as to what we believe.




Is salvation only for those who understand all scripture perfectly? No.[b/]

If that was the case there would be none saved, none




[b]Did God ever say He would take back His gift or that we must keep ourselves saved? No.

God never said that he would take back his gift, and he never will. As I have said before it is us the believers that are the problem in that we can and some do, depart from the living God.

I do not believe that there is a statement in the Bible that says that we must keep our selves saved, word for word, but the following does say that there are things that we must keep or we will face the consequences. Pay attention to Jude 1:21. We are expected to "keep".

Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Luke 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

1 Timothy 5:22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

1 John 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen

Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.




My belief that when you are saved you are saved for eternity, starts with God's character and the trust I have that He will do for me what I cannot do. He is willing and able to rescue me, adopt me into His family and to keep me in His family in spite of my failings.

This is a specific statement that you should support with the Bible, book, chapter and verse. I believe that when you are in Christ you are saved for eternity but if you step out of Christ by departing from the living God, you are no longer saved for eternity or anything else. Eternal life is in his son and if you step out you leave eternal life.

Saxon
10-29-2014, 10:38 PM
You are creating a RED HERRING because that is NOT what Jude says.

Jude 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

No one doubts what you say, but that is a distinct and different matter than what is said in Jude. (This author is the half brother of Jesus.) You are failing to use the whole council of God as you do this, and you are making the verses enemies instead of friends

You are the one that is not using the whole council of God. You seem to think that if a real warning is there that speaks against OSAS the warning now turns into something that is not a friend. That is a silly thought on your part. If there is a storm and you are driving down the road and the bridge is out and I was to stop you and tell you to turn around because the bridge is out that makes me not a friend? If your friends would let you go through what good is their friendship? It is good for nothing.

Ezekiel 18:24 tells us clearly but that is not friendly so you ignore it. Jesus by way of Luke 8:13 tells us clearly but that is not friendly so you ignore it. Paul in Romans 11:20 and 21 tells us clearly but that is not friendly so you ignore it. The truth is OSAS is not true.

Ezekiel 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his tresp*** that he hath tresp***ed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.




No one doubts what you say, but that is a distinct and different matter than what is said in Jude. (This author is the half brother of Jesus.) You are failing to use the whole council of God as you do this, and you are making the verses enemies instead of friends. The simple fact of the matter is that you seem to be creating an either/or situation when in fact the situation is REALLY both/and. This is what I mean by stating you are not looking at the whole council of God.

NOW can you see what I am saying?

Jude does not cancel out the rest of the Bible that clearly speaks in total opposition to OSAS You speak of the whole council of God, then I would suggest that you look at the whole council of God. How does he keep you from falling? He provided the scriptures that if you obey them you will not fall. The idea that we are saved and just wait for the sweet by and by because we are not responsible for salvation in any way is just a huge lie from the pit. If you were to look at the whole council of God you would find that we are responsible to have faith in Christ. Faith in Christ does not save us but God saved us by his grace. It is a total gift. After we are saved we are to engage in the good works that we were created in Christ Jesus to do. (See Ephesians 2:8 to 10) If we do not do what Christians are to do then we will be removed. (See John 15:1 and 2)

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

John T
10-30-2014, 08:13 AM
Hello Saxon

You are making the verses enemies instead of friends.

Can you not see that is a case of "both..., and" instead of "either/ or"? If one does not accept that both the "Calvinist verses" and the "Free Will Baptist verses" are true, and come from the same Author, we neglect to use the whole council of God. Otherwise we wind up by implication that God is schizophrenic and unreliable because He cannot make His thoughts clear, nor can He keep His Covenental promises. Instead it is us, not Him who is unreliable because we are creatures with limited understanding.

No, that is not a nasty accusation, but it is a plea to be more temperate.

disciple
10-30-2014, 11:22 AM
I know that you don’t mean to insult me and as I said I let it go. Forgive and forget. John T’s point is totally true.





God does not lie ever. We are the ones that are to find out what God is saying.





God does not trick us but Satan is out to deceive us and we are to be careful as to what we believe.





If that was the case there would be none saved, none





God never said that he would take back his gift, and he never will. As I have said before it is us the believers that are the problem in that we can and some do, depart from the living God.

I do not believe that there is a statement in the Bible that says that we must keep our selves saved, word for word, but the following does say that there are things that we must keep or we will face the consequences. Pay attention to Jude 1:21. We are expected to "keep".

Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Luke 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

1 Timothy 5:22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

1 John 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen

Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.





This is a specific statement that you should support with the Bible, book, chapter and verse. I believe that when you are in Christ you are saved for eternity but if you step out of Christ by departing from the living God, you are no longer saved for eternity or anything else. Eternal life is in his son and if you step out you leave eternal life.

I would reference the following scripture and take note in these verses there is no stipulation "unless or until you sin".
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory." Ephesians 1:3-14

So we are justified by the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, and we are also adopted by the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. The one transaction, redeeming us, buying us out of the slave market of sin - that is the picture here - that one transaction between God the Son and God the Father has wrought both legal acts on our behalf: justification and adoption. Not only have we been declared not guilty by God the Judge, but God the Judge has adopted us as His own sons. And the law also granted the one who adopted that son the full rights and responsibilities of a father, full authority over the adopted son, and full responsibility to care for him and keep him. True adopted sons do not walk away but the illegitimate fakers will always reveal themselves.

Saxon
10-30-2014, 08:58 PM
Hello Saxon

You are making the verses enemies instead of friends.

Can you not see that is a case of "both..., and" instead of "either/ or"? If one does not accept that both the "Calvinist verses" and the "Free Will Baptist verses" are true, and come from the same Author, we neglect to use the whole council of God. Otherwise we wind up by implication that God is schizophrenic and unreliable because He cannot make His thoughts clear, nor can He keep His Covenental promises. Instead it is us, not Him who is unreliable because we are creatures with limited understanding.

No, that is not a nasty accusation, but it is a plea to be more temperate.

Can something be wet and dry at the same time? Can something be right and wrong at the same time? Either OSAS is true or OSAS is false. It has to be one or the other. Whoever is making a false statement using the word of God for support does not understand what is being said in the scriptures that are being used for support. It is either the “Calvinists” or the “Free Will Baptists” that are miss-using the scriptures. The Bible cannot and will not and does not contradict itself in any way. We cannot have OSAS both right and wrong and say that is what the Bible teaches.

I will agree with you when you say that it is us and not him that are not getting it right. God is not and never will be schizophrenic and unreliable. All scripture is “friendly”. We do not have the capability to change that. What we need to do is understand what God is telling us. In this case we are looking at OSAS and you appear to be saying that it is true and you can lose your salvation is true. To me, this is not possible seeing that it is diametrically opposed to each other.

You have said nothing nasty.

Saxon
10-30-2014, 09:56 PM
I would reference the following scripture and take note in these verses there is no stipulation "unless or until you sin".
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory." Ephesians 1:3-14

So we are justified by the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, and we are also adopted by the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. The one transaction, redeeming us, buying us out of the slave market of sin - that is the picture here - that one transaction between God the Son and God the Father has wrought both legal acts on our behalf: justification and adoption. Not only have we been declared not guilty by God the Judge, but God the Judge has adopted us as His own sons. And the law also granted the one who adopted that son the full rights and responsibilities of a father, full authority over the adopted son, and full responsibility to care for him and keep him. True adopted sons do not walk away but the illegitimate fakers will always reveal themselves.

You have quoted scripture and what you have quoted I do have to agree with the scripture. You may have noticed that everything that the scripture mentioned that was bestowed upon the believer was conditioned on being “in Christ”. Everything mentioned was to those that are in Christ. It is only those that are in Christ that are blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places; He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world; predestined us to adoption as sons; we have redemption through His blood; the forgiveness of sins. All the rest is because we are in Christ. It is being in Christ that makes a person a Christian person. 1 John 5:11 confirms this by stating that eternal life is IN his Son, in Christ. If this were all the scripture that deals with salvation I could be convinced that OSAS is true. But, there is more than just the verses that tell you about salvation and there are verses that do tell that we can fall away, fall from grace depart from the living God, be cut off of the olive tree or be removed from the vine. You cannot just look at the “good” verses and ignore the verses that tell you that you can lose your salvation. They are there to tell the truth so you do not get caught up in the things that you were entangled in before you were saved. Jesus said you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.

There are no fakers in Christ. In Christ is salvation, outside of Christ is lost sinners.

1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

John T
10-30-2014, 11:26 PM
I will agree with you when you say that it is us and not him that are not getting it right. God is not and never will be schizophrenic and unreliable. All scripture is “friendly”. We do not have the capability to change that. What we need to do is understand what God is telling us. In this case we are looking at OSAS and you appear to be saying that it is true and you can lose your salvation is true. To me, this is not possible seeing that it is diametrically opposed to each other.

You have said nothing nasty.

I an glad to see that you agree with me on something, but you miss my point about OSAS and Arninianism both being true simultaneously, and not exclusive of each other. We humans in out limited capacities of reason and logic want to make them exclusive. My theological position as a OSAS believer is to ask how can I reconcile the two positions without disparaging the Arminian position?

You see the "fight" between the Calvinist and Arminians is largely an in-house fight. It is akin to two teen aged boys trying to best each other in the living room of their house, and in the process, they may move furniture of break some lamps.

As long as the brothers are alive, they will remain brothers, and remain in the same family even after they have their own distinct families.

Here is an example of my attempt to reconcile two verses favored by both sides:
.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand

Isaiah 49:16 Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame
.

If you can imagine a child holding M&Ms in his fist, that is how tightly Jesus holds his Children, but it is more than that, believers are tattooed on the palms of God.

OTOH there is Hebrews 6:4-6 that tells us clearly that there are some people who "were enlightened, tasted, partook and know the powers of the world to come" to renew themselves into repentance because they are re-crucifying Jesus again.

Yes, I am guessing here, and I reserve the right to be wrong, but I believe that when Esau sold his birthright to Jacob for a bowl of red oatmeal that MAY be an example of what Hebrews 6 is talking about.

You see, no one took away the birthright of Esau; he willingly gave it up because it was not of much value to him. So that section does not speak of "back sliding" but I believe that is may be possible for one to relinquish the rights of their salvation.

When Absalom did all his nasty stuff to his father David, he relinquished any rights he had to be a son of the King because he openly showed contempt for his father. That may be another example.

So what I have done here is maintain the truth of both sections of verses and try to make a way to bring them together as brothers in the same book of God's words. Do you think that you could do likewise?

Saxon
10-31-2014, 01:20 AM
I an glad to see that you agree with me on something, but you miss my point about OSAS and Arninianism both being true simultaneously, and not exclusive of each other. We humans in out limited capacities of reason and logic want to make them exclusive. My theological position as a OSAS believer is to ask how can I reconcile the two positions without disparaging the Arminian position?

You see the "fight" between the Calvinist and Arminians is largely an in-house fight. It is akin to two teen aged boys trying to best each other in the living room of their house, and in the process, they may move furniture of break some lamps.

As long as the brothers are alive, they will remain brothers, and remain in the same family even after they have their own distinct families.

Here is an example of my attempt to reconcile two verses favored by both sides:
.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand

Isaiah 49:16 Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame
.
If you can imagine a child holding M&Ms in his fist, that is how tightly Jesus holds his Children, but it is more than that, believers are tattooed on the palms of God.

OTOH there is Hebrews 6:4-6 that tells us clearly that there are some people who "were enlightened, tasted, partook and know the powers of the world to come" to renew themselves into repentance because they are re-crucifying Jesus again.

Yes, I am guessing here, and I reserve the right to be wrong, but I believe that when Esau sold his birthright to Jacob for a bowl of red oatmeal that MAY be an example of what Hebrews 6 is talking about.

You see, no one took away the birthright of Esau; he willingly gave it up because it was not of much value to him. So that section does not speak of "back sliding" but I believe that is may be possible for one to relinquish the rights of their salvation.

When Absalom did all his nasty stuff to his father David, he relinquished any rights he had to be a son of the King because he openly showed contempt for his father. That may be another example.

So what I have done here is maintain the truth of both sections of verses and try to make a way to bring them together as brothers in the same book of God's words. Do you think that you could do likewise?

I do see what you are attempting to do. You are beating a dead horse and expecting it to react. You cannot be dead and alive at the same time. You cannot be black and white at the same time. You cannot be right and wrong at the same time.

I cannot see how OSAS can be true and false at the same time. It just doesn’t compute. Now that I have said all that; show me!

disciple
10-31-2014, 05:58 AM
You have quoted scripture and what you have quoted I do have to agree with the scripture. You may have noticed that everything that the scripture mentioned that was bestowed upon the believer was conditioned on being “in Christ”. Everything mentioned was to those that are in Christ. It is only those that are in Christ that are blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places; He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world; predestined us to adoption as sons; we have redemption through His blood; the forgiveness of sins. All the rest is because we are in Christ. It is being in Christ that makes a person a Christian person. 1 John 5:11 confirms this by stating that eternal life is IN his Son, in Christ. If this were all the scripture that deals with salvation I could be convinced that OSAS is true. But, there is more than just the verses that tell you about salvation and there are verses that do tell that we can fall away, fall from grace depart from the living God, be cut off of the olive tree or be removed from the vine. You cannot just look at the “good” verses and ignore the verses that tell you that you can lose your salvation. They are there to tell the truth so you do not get caught up in the things that you were entangled in before you were saved. Jesus said you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.

There are no fakers in Christ. In Christ is salvation, outside of Christ is lost sinners.

1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Hello Saxon,

There are no fakers in Christ because they were always pretenders, just as false teachers acted as teachers of the truth but were not, fake Christians and false teachers have fooled many. Lets look at the following verses. “But God demonstrates his own love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, because we have now been declared righteous by his blood, we will be saved through him from God’s wrath. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more, since we have been reconciled, will we be saved by his life?” Romans 5:8-10

Simply stated, if God did so much for us while we were sinners, completely alienated and enemies of God before salvation, how much more will He not do for us now that we have been reconciled and stand related to Him as His children who have been justified, declared righteous in Christ? Salvation depends upon God to bring it to p***, not us. Nothing, not even our sin, can frustrate the eternal and sovereign purpose of God who determined to save us by grace through faith in His Son. Since God’s holiness has been satisfied by the death of Christ, He can be just and the justifier of those who receive His Son by faith. To say that a Christian has more say in what God has purchased, and purchased by the way when He knew everything we would do in the future, is like saying we can thwart what God has ordained. Look at the following verse;
“I tell you the solemn truth, the one who hears my message and believes the one who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, but has crossed over from death to life.” John 5:24 This verse does not say, "will not be condemned unless he stumbles", nor does it say or imply in any way "but has crossed over from death to life unless he decides to cross back to death".

disciple
10-31-2014, 07:59 AM
Lets also look at the following sections of scripture.
“Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord,as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.”
2 Peter 1:2-4
Let’s first notice that it was Him who called us and the plan of salvation was conceived and carried out by His divine power. When people realize that they do not have to become like Christ on their own power, and with their own resources, but instead we can rely on the riches and wealth we have been given by God and the fact that it is Him who keeps us we can have ***urance. He has enabled us, once born again to escape corruption.

“For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.” Galatians 2:19-21
Who lives the Christian life, is it me or Christ through me? If it depends on me to stay saved and I fail then Christ died in vain.

John T
10-31-2014, 10:58 AM
I do see what you are attempting to do. You are beating a dead horse and expecting it to react. You cannot be dead and alive at the same time. You cannot be black and white at the same time. You cannot be right and wrong at the same time.

I cannot see how OSAS can be true and false at the same time. It just doesn’t compute. Now that I have said all that; show me!

You are correct that "it does not compute", but can you understand that that comes from the mind of humans, and NOT from the mind of God?

As to the "dead horse" ****ogy, it is not appropriate as it pertains to either position. That is because I am attempting to demonstrate that because both sets of verses are in the Bible, both sets of verses MUST be true and harmonious. However I believe that the "dead horse" term MAY be appropriate to those who wish to make the Bible say something that God did not intend it to say because they are so entrenched in their polarized view, that they do not wish to reconcile "the other side" with their viewpoints.

For sure, I do not know if that describes you, and I do know that I am not pointing fingers; instead, I am opening the possibilities for a more reasoned discussion than has been done before. Just because you cannot reconcile polarities, it does not mean that we should not attempt to do this especially because this is not an issue that determines salvation. It is an in-house issue between brothers who are saved. Therefore you are setting up polarities that are not true because they are absolutes based in the world, and they are in keeping with what Scripture says. It is more of a rhetorical objection than one based on Scripture.

More to the point, IMHO your position seems to be tantamount to dividing brothers in Christ. I surely hope that it is your position that those professing Christians who are in the "OSAS camp" are just as much saved as those who are in the in the "Arminian camp". I say this because if you are taking the extreme position that the Christians who believe that the Bible "teaches OSAS" are apostates who are not saved then there is no hope of theological reconciliation with you on that issue.

Secondly, I believe that your position is placing too much emphasis on the phrase "in Christ". It seems to be an ambiguous and rhetorical point in an argument. That is because you do not supply us with the definition that you place on that phrase. For example, if one is "in Christ" how does one get to that position? If one considers that being "in Christ" is like a front door of a house, then how does the process of going out the back door, and being "out of Christ" work? I submit that there is no Scripture that supports the position that one can "place himself in Christ, which is the cornerstone of your position

Thirdly, you have not dealt with the examples I took from Scripture. They are in there for a purpose, and I described one reason why they are placed there. It is not necessary for you to agree with what I said, but I submit that if you do not agree, then it is necessary for you to supply a reason why such incidents are in the Bible. Otherwise you are basing your arguments on rhetoric, and not on facts.

I look forward to reading your response.

Saxon
11-01-2014, 05:52 PM
You are correct that "it does not compute", but can you understand that that comes from the mind of humans, and NOT from the mind of God?

What does not compute is the idea that something can be right and wrong at the same time. Even in God’s realm this is not possible.

I think that you would agree that God had inspired Ezekiel to write Ezekiel 18:24. This statement makes it clear that OSAS is NOT an option.


Ezekiel 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his tresp*** that he hath tresp***ed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.




As to the "dead horse" ****ogy, it is not appropriate as it pertains to either position. That is because I am attempting to demonstrate that because both sets of verses are in the Bible, both sets of verses MUST be true and harmonious. However I believe that the "dead horse" term MAY be appropriate to those who wish to make the Bible say something that God did not intend it to say because they are so entrenched in their polarized view, that they do not wish to reconcile "the other side" with their viewpoints.

All scripture is true and all scripture is from God. God’s word is in harmony. Harmony does not mean that things that seem to oppose each other are correct in the supposed opposition. In other word right and wrong; yes and no are not the same.

A person has to come to a conclusion but it cannot be that it is right and the opposite is also right. That is beating the dead horse.




For sure, I do not know if that describes you, and I do know that I am not pointing fingers; instead, I am opening the possibilities for a more reasoned discussion than has been done before. Just because you cannot reconcile polarities, it does not mean that we should not attempt to do this especially because this is not an issue that determines salvation. It is an in-house issue between brothers who are saved. Therefore you are setting up polarities that are not true because they are absolutes based in the world, and they are in keeping with what Scripture says. It is more of a rhetorical objection than one based on Scripture.

This is not an issue that determines if one is saved or not but it can effect the out come at the end of the earthly life.

If OSAS is true then there is nothing to worry about. The only real problem with OSAS if it were true is that you can never know if you are saved. If you die believing OSAS and it is not true and you fail to repent of sins committee while saved then you will be held accountable for them. (See Ezekiel 18:24)

If OSAS is not true then there is nothing to worry about because when you start to fall away you just have to repent and go on living for God. If I die not believing OSAS then it is ok because if it was true I just didn’t believe it, no big deal.

I am not setting up polarities, they are there before I was even born. God did not set up polarities but people that cannot reconcile eternal life /everlasting life and loss of salvation have set up the polarities.



More to the point, IMHO your position seems to be tantamount to dividing brothers in Christ. I surely hope that it is your position that those professing Christians who are in the "OSAS camp" are just as much saved as those who are in the in the "Arminian camp". I say this because if you are taking the extreme position that the Christians who believe that the Bible "teaches OSAS" are apostates who are not saved then there is no hope of theological reconciliation with you on that issue.

And believing OSAS isn’t equally dividing brothers in Christ???

Salvation is by grace through faith, not on what doctrines you believe. When we all get to heaven we are going to be surprised at who gets there and who doesn’t.

How did you ever come to the conclusion that I would hold that extreme view?? I have had people tell me that I am not saved because I do not believe OSAS. That is just as absurd.




Secondly, I believe that your position is placing too much emphasis on the phrase "in Christ". It seems to be an ambiguous and rhetorical point in an argument. That is because you do not supply us with the definition that you place on that phrase. For example, if one is "in Christ" how does one get to that position? If one considers that being "in Christ" is like a front door of a house, then how does the process of going out the back door, and being "out of Christ" work? I submit that there is no Scripture that supports the position that one can "place himself in Christ, which is the cornerstone of your position

If you think that I am placing too much emphasis on the phrase "in Christ" you will have to complain to the author as it was him that mentioned it. In Christ is the key to the whole affair and I am putting too much emphasis on it. You need a reality check.

There is no scripture that supports the position that one can "place himself in Christ”. Besides placing ones self in Christ, if it were possible, is not the problem. The problem is departing from the living God. (See Hebrews 3:12) The thought of place ones self in Christ, is not the cornerstone of my position. Being in Christ is the cornerstone of all of Christianity. In Christ is salvation, outside of Christ is lost sinners. I am not placing too much emphasis on “in Christ” it is you not putting enough emphasis on “in Christ”.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Saxon
11-01-2014, 05:58 PM
Thirdly, you have not dealt with the examples I took from Scripture. They are in there for a purpose, and I described one reason why they are placed there. It is not necessary for you to agree with what I said, but I submit that if you do not agree, then it is necessary for you to supply a reason why such incidents are in the Bible. Otherwise you are basing your arguments on rhetoric, and not on facts.


Here is an example of my attempt to reconcile two verses favored by both sides:
.
John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand

In order to be able to reconcile verses like this with being able to lose eternal life you need to have an understanding of what eternal life is and is not.

Eternal Life is a condition that exists in Christ alone. Only those that are “in Christ” are experiencing Eternal Life. The following verses are all ***ociating (Eternal) Life to Jesus Christ. So the answer to the question, what is the proper biblical Eternal Life? would be that Jesus Christ is Eternal Life.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

John 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

John 6:48 I am that bread of life.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

John 14:6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him

1John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
1John 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

1John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

1John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

From this we can see that eternal life is not a quan***y of life. If you take time to read the verses supplied and check the context you will soon see that eternal life is Jesus Christ himself. Jesus, the life, is eternal. Eternal life has always existed and will never end that is why it is called eternal life. Eternal life was eternal before you or I had it and if we were to fall away eternal life will still be eternal. Believers have nothing to do with eternal life being eternal.

It is true that no man will pluck the saved out of the father’s hand. The idea of being plucked and wandering off are very different. Hebrews 3:12 warns us about departing from the living God. A believer departing is different than someone or something plucking us from the Father’s hand. In the parable of the lost sheep, the sheep was actually lost. In this case the sheep was recovered but if it was not it would have died outside the care of the shepherd.



Isaiah 49:16 Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me.


This indicates how close God is to us but is not indicating OSAS.



Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame

This is supporting that a saved person can fall away.

Saxon
11-01-2014, 06:50 PM
Hello Saxon,

There are no fakers in Christ because they were always pretenders, just as false teachers acted as teachers of the truth but were not, fake Christians and false teachers have fooled many. Lets look at the following verses. “But God demonstrates his own love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, because we have now been declared righteous by his blood, we will be saved through him from God’s wrath. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more, since we have been reconciled, will we be saved by his life?” Romans 5:8-10

You stated, “True adopted sons do not walk away but the illegitimate fakers will always reveal themselves”. Where in scripture does that statement or any statement indicate that true adopted sons do not walk away? That is in direct conflict with Hebrews 3:12. How do illegitimate fakers always reveal themselves?

There is no doubt that there are those that claim to be Christians but are not and those that teach false doctrine. There are some Christians that do teach false doctrines but for the most part the rest are not Christians and are not part of the discussion.

Those are good verses that are true, but in reality they do not say anything that has to do with OSAS being true.


Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.




Simply stated, if God did so much for us while we were sinners, completely alienated and enemies of God before salvation, how much more will He not do for us now that we have been reconciled and stand related to Him as His children who have been justified, declared righteous in Christ? Salvation depends upon God to bring it to p***, not us. Nothing, not even our sin, can frustrate the eternal and sovereign purpose of God who determined to save us by grace through faith in His Son. Since God’s holiness has been satisfied by the death of Christ, He can be just and the justifier of those who receive His Son by faith. To say that a Christian has more say in what God has purchased, and purchased by the way when He knew everything we would do in the future, is like saying we can thwart what God has ordained. Look at the following verse;
“I tell you the solemn truth, the one who hears my message and believes the one who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, but has crossed over from death to life.” John 5:24 This verse does not say, "will not be condemned unless he stumbles", nor does it say or imply in any way "but has crossed over from death to life unless he decides to cross back to death".

Yes, God has done it all for us as far as salvation goes. Getting from death to life (saved) is a gift from God. The term “grace” indicates that we can do nothing for salvation. The term “gift” indicates that we can do nothing for salvation. The term “not of works” indicates that we can do nothing for salvation. (See Ephesians 2:8 and 9)

Getting saved is one event that happens in the process of becoming a Christian. After you get saved you are expected to be the Christian that God created you to be. This includes works. (See Ephesians 2:10) We are clearly told that we have been created in Christ Jesus to do good works. This is an obligation that we have to God. WE are to do the good works in order to produce fruit. If we do not produce fruit, according to John 15:1 and 2 the father will remove us.

See my answer to JohnT about what eternal life is. These verses that you have posted here say nothing about OSAS. The quoted verses tell us that God loves the lost as well as the saved. If he didn’t love the lost then there would be no one saved. The verses also tell us about salvation that occurs before we are required to do works.

Getting saved is a gift of God but living the Christian live is something that the saved are required to do.



Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Saxon
11-01-2014, 08:10 PM
Lets also look at the following sections of scripture.
“Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord,as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.”
2 Peter 1:2-4
Let’s first notice that it was Him who called us and the plan of salvation was conceived and carried out by His divine power. When people realize that they do not have to become like Christ on their own power, and with their own resources, but instead we can rely on the riches and wealth we have been given by God and the fact that it is Him who keeps us we can have ***urance. He has enabled us, once born again to escape corruption.

“For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.” Galatians 2:19-21
Who lives the Christian life, is it me or Christ through me? If it depends on me to stay saved and I fail then Christ died in vain.

Directly after verses 2 to 4 Peter waded in with verses 8 to 10, warning us to make sure of our calling and election. Peter did not preach or teach OSAS.

He has enabled us to escape corruption by his power and through his word. If we do not obey his word we will take our selves away from his protection, just as the lost sheep that would have died away from the shepherd’s protection if he had not been found. The sheep was really lost.

Yes we life by faith in the Son of God. If your faith is turned away from Christ by the deception of seducing spirits (See 1Timothy 4:1) and you fail to give diligence to make your calling and election sure The results can become disastrous to lose of salvation.

There is nothing to indicate that we are trapped in the Christian walk. Galatians 2:20 states that we live in the flesh we live by the faith of the Son of God. This verse in no way negates the warnings in 2 Peter 1:10 and 1Timothy 4:1 or any other that I have mentioned during the time that we have been discussing this subject. You as a believer do have responsibilities that only you can do. We were not saved to become stagnate and just go with the folw. We are under specific directions as how ti live a Christian life. If we do not want to do what he asks of us we will become the fruitless vine in John 15:1 and 2.

Notice that Galatians was written to people that Paul was concerned that they were already fallen from Christ. See the last Galatians references, Paul was not preaching OSAS.

2 Peter 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

1Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

John T
11-01-2014, 08:34 PM
What does not compute is the idea that something can be right and wrong at the same time. Even in God’s realm this is not possible.

I think that you would agree that God had inspired Ezekiel to write Ezekiel 18:24. This statement makes it clear that OSAS is NOT an option.


All scripture is true and all scripture is from God. God’s word is in harmony. Harmony does not mean that things that seem to oppose each other are correct in the supposed opposition. In other word right and wrong; yes and no are not the same.

A person has to come to a conclusion but it cannot be that it is right and the opposite is also right. That is beating the dead horse.


This is not an issue that determines if one is saved or not but it can effect the out come at the end of the earthly life.

If OSAS is true then there is nothing to worry about. The only real problem with OSAS if it were true is that you can never know if you are saved. If you die believing OSAS and it is not true and you fail to repent of sins committee while saved then you will be held accountable for them. (See Ezekiel 18:24)

If OSAS is not true then there is nothing to worry about because when you start to fall away you just have to repent and go on living for God. If I die not believing OSAS then it is ok because if it was true I just didn’t believe it, no big deal.

I am not setting up polarities, they are there before I was even born. God did not set up polarities but people that cannot reconcile eternal life /everlasting life and loss of salvation have set up the polarities.

And believing OSAS isn’t equally dividing brothers in Christ???

Salvation is by grace through faith, not on what doctrines you believe. When we all get to heaven we are going to be surprised at who gets there and who doesn’t.

How did you ever come to the conclusion that I would hold that extreme view?? I have had people tell me that I am not saved because I do not believe OSAS. That is just as absurd.


If you think that I am placing too much emphasis on the phrase "in Christ" you will have to complain to the author as it was him that mentioned it. In Christ is the key to the whole affair and I am putting too much emphasis on it. You need a reality check.

There is no scripture that supports the position that one can "place himself in Christ”. Besides placing ones self in Christ, if it were possible, is not the problem. The problem is departing from the living God. (See Hebrews 3:12) The thought of place ones self in Christ, is not the cornerstone of my position. Being in Christ is the cornerstone of all of Christianity. In Christ is salvation, outside of Christ is lost sinners. I am not placing too much emphasis on “in Christ” it is you not putting enough emphasis on “in Christ”.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

All I did was attempt to have you think differently; however, you have demonstrated that you fail to consider the merits of another poster's ideas, that you are very rigid in your thinking, very selective in the Bible verses you cite (you did NOT address any of the verses I selected) very confrontational in that you set up non -scriptural either/or meaning right/wrong polarities from God's word and very rude because you say I need a "reality check" as if I was neurotic or having a mental illness.

And all of this is because I attempted to create a bridge of understanding in a nice, friendly manner. I made red your offending remarks. Your posts to me are primary reasons why I stay out of the Calvinism/Arminian mud slinging. Therefore with this post I unsubscribe to this thread.

For what you have done in this thread to others and me, may the Lord rebuke you, and may Holy Spirit convince you of the error of your prideful ways.

Saxon
11-04-2014, 04:29 PM
All I did was attempt to have you think differently; however, you have demonstrated that you fail to consider the merits of another poster's ideas, that you are very rigid in your thinking, very selective in the Bible verses you cite (you did NOT address any of the verses I selected) very confrontational in that you set up non -scriptural either/or meaning right/wrong polarities from God's word and very rude because you say I need a "reality check" as if I was neurotic or having a mental illness.

What you would have me do is to go along with your idea that both sides to the discussion are right. This is a situation that no matter how friendly you wish to be you cannot have both “sets” of verses correct as it is a total impossibility. That is the reality that you need to check. It has nothing to do with the state of your mental stability as you wish to think.




And all of this is because I attempted to create a bridge of understanding in a nice, friendly manner. I made red your offending remarks. Your posts to me are primary reasons why I stay out of the Calvinism/Arminian mud slinging. Therefore with this post I unsubscribe to this thread.

You are the one that has come into this discussion unprepared and unwilling to think differently. I have told you what I believe to be true and when it flys in the face of what you seem to expect me to believe you get offended and quit the thread. I have never tried to force anyone to believe what I am saying. My hope is that the scriptures that I present will speak for themselves, if you actually take the time to see what is being said in the scriptures and believe them instead of the OSAS doctrine that is nowhere stated or, as far as I can see, even alluded to anywhere in the word of God.




For what you have done in this thread to others and me, may the Lord rebuke you, and may Holy Spirit convince you of the error of your prideful ways.

What is it that I have done to you and others on this thread except present what I honestly believe to be the truth. If you think that is error and pride, you are free to think that way if you want.

dberrie2000
11-08-2016, 10:44 AM
Hi Saxon, So it's your position that the Christian is totally responsable for keeping himself saved. No verse in the Bible makes that true.

1 Timothy 4:16--King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

I would call that a shared responsibility.

disciple
11-10-2016, 09:58 AM
1 Timothy 4:16--King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

I would call that a shared responsibility.

"Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee."

I see the point you are trying to make but that is not the context of 1 Tim.
Paul is writing to Timothy to encourage and instruct him on how to be a good Pastor.
The two requirements of a good pastor, take heed how you live your life
and pay attention to what you teach. A pastor must also continue to live
according to sound doctrine because if he doesn’t no one will pay attention
to what he teaches and of course a good example is not enough what he
teaches must be the truth. You will note that the scripture says “in doing
this” and not “by doing this” you will save both yourself and those who hear you.
Since we cannot save ourselves or anyone else, in this context continuing to teach
sound doctrine will save both the preacher and those who hear him from error,
heresies and false teaching.

alanmolstad
03-10-2017, 05:05 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YZ5b6UJ1NQ