Is Election the Only Means of Salvation?

[alanmolstad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgZxO-Qm2LA

[Saxon]

Election is not the means of salvation; salvation is the means of election.

[alanmolstad]

that means what?

[Saxon]

That means that you are not the elect until you are in Christ who is the elect.

[John T]

That means that you are not the elect until you are in Christ who is the elect.
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How does this fit into your definition?
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Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:


4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will


You seem to be saying that we are saved before we are born if only those who are "in Christ" are born again.

[John T]

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How does this fit into your definition?
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Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:


4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will


You seem to be saying that we are saved before we are born if only those who are "in Christ" are born again.

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[Saxon]

How does this fit into your definition?
.
Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will

You seem to be saying that we are saved before we are born if only those who are "in Christ" are born again.

That is definitely not what I am saying. You have quoted Ephesians 1:3 to 5. This scripture explains that being in Christ is the only way to God’s blessings.

Paul is writing to Christians; the saints at Ephesus and the faithful in Christ Jesus. God has blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: He has chosen us in him. He has predestinated us unto the adoption of children. He hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Notice that all thing that God has done for us, Christians, has been done IN CHRIST JESUS. The plan that God has is that anyone that is saved by grace through faith will be baptized into the one body, the body of Christ, (See 1Corinthians 12:13) and being in Christ they will have all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ. (See Ephesians 1:3)

All spiritual blessings include being part of the elect. All this happens to and for believers only after we are placed in Christ by the Holy Spirit. God had made up his mind before the foundation of the world to choose us who would be found in Christ to bless us.

This does not mean that we were saved before the foundation of the world, but that is when God chose to bless us that would be in Christ. No one is in Christ until they are saved. I was not in Christ until March, 1972. Salvation comes before anything that is mentioned in Ephesians 1:3 to 5.



Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

1Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

[tdidymas]

he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world
"Before" is the when concerning our election. "Before the foundation of the world" - it means that we were chosen (elect) far before we ever existed, and even further before we were saved. Obviously "in Christ" is the setting, since no one is saved out of Christ. Therefore, election of individuals came before salvation.

Election is not the means of salvation. I agree with you here. Faith, regeneration, the Holy Spirit, redemption in Christ, the new covenant, etc., etc. as a complete package of salvation coming to individuals as a free gift from God - this is the means of the salvation of individuals. It is briefly laid out from God's view and God's monergistic work in Rom. 8:28-31.
:)TD

[Saxon]

"Before" is the when concerning our election. "Before the foundation of the world" - it means that we were chosen (elect) far before we ever existed, and even further before we were saved. Obviously "in Christ" is the setting, since no one is saved out of Christ. Therefore, election of individuals came before salvation.

Where does it state that we were chosen before we existed? Ephesians 1:4 says that the choosing of us “in him” (Christ) took place before the foundation of the world. You nor any one else was in Christ before you were born into the world or born again. You were not chosen or predestined to anything until you were saved. This did not happen before the foundation of the world. I was saved and in Christ in March, 1972. That was well after the foundation of the world.

Before the foundation of the world is when God decreed that those in Christ would be the elect and predestined and everything else that was for those that are in Christ Jesus. You were not in Christ until you were saved. The election of individuals came AFTER salvation.

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.




Election is not the means of salvation. I agree with you here. Faith, regeneration, the Holy Spirit, redemption in Christ, the new covenant, etc., etc. as a complete package of salvation coming to individuals as a free gift from God - this is the means of the salvation of individuals. It is briefly laid out from God's view and God's monergistic work in Rom. 8:28-31.

Even in your statement, “in Christ” is the key.

[alanmolstad]

my views are that before the word wasmade, before even time was created, God already saw me as saved and with him in the kingdom.

Nothing about my salvation was left unknown to the Lord, or in doubt to him.

The salvation was a 100% ***ured fact....

[Saxon]

my views are that before the word wasmade, before even time was created, God already saw me as saved and with him in the kingdom.

Nothing about my salvation was left unknown to the Lord, or in doubt to him.

The salvation was a 100% ***ured fact....

There is no doubt in my mind that what you say is a possibility and is likely true, God knows the beginning all the way through to the end. What we have to determine is that what this text is saying? Your generalization does not reflect the text in Ephesians 1:1 to 6.

The text repeats the fact that it is those that are in Christ are the ones that are being referred to. There is no mention of those that will be in Christ as he is not demonstrating his foreknowledge in this text. Paul is writing from a “present” point of view. If we were there in the moment we would still be well past the foundation of the world.

Reread Ephesians 1:4 and the actuality is that there was no one that was “in Christ” before the foundation of the world as there was no one that existed as far as the human race is concerned. So God, before the foundation of the world declared that he has chosen us, the ones that were going to be in Christ that when we came into Christ that we would be chosen, predestined and all the other blessings that are for those that are in Christ.

The fact that there was going to be salvation was and is a 100% sure fact. The ones that get saved God knows. The fact that God knows something does not mean that it is because God caused it to happen. God’s foreknowledge does not determine that he caused it to happen. This only means that God knows what you will do before you do it.

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

[alanmolstad]

as I said....

before the world was made...before the first sun was placed into the darkness of time and space....before any of the things that are now were made...before all this..

God saw me with Him.

And not just accidentally...
God was not just looking into the future....God was not looking at what "was to be"

God was looking at what is.

For God has no past,
God cant look into his future for he has none.

And so my salvation is not just a happy accident.
my salvation was not left up to me to decide and then inform God...
God did not sit and watch me make a choice with the outcome in my hands....NO!

For God is a God of life and a God of action!.....not a god who sits and hopes for the best, with a back-up plan for whatever I might decide to do.


So this means that my salvation is an "act".....of God's Grace...
Not accidental, but rather it was predestined

And when things are predestined to happen one way, that can not happen any other way......

[RevSteve56]

The "choosing" that God has done, before the foundation of the world, is that His children, the ones who received His free gift of salvation by grace, through faith, should be holy and blameless before Him in love. God foreknows, of course, all who will receive His free gift of salvation. But this does not necessarily mean that He orchestrates events in our lives to lead us to that point. But just as Romans 8:28 says that All things work together for good, to them that love God and are the called according to His purpose. In the same way, God causes various people, places & events in our lives to bring us to a place where we can hear the Gospel, and thus receive faith to believe Him for salvation, if indeed that is our choice. Depending on the individual, he or she may have several chances to be saved. Once we are saved, it is in God's plan that we be holy & blameless before Him in love. If we are not saved, and we keep on rejecting God's salvation until we die, then it is God's plan that we separated from Him in eternity.

[alanmolstad]

for us whom God foreknew he ALSO Predestines....

God does not foreknow and LATER predestine something to be that He just happens to know works out that way in the end.

He Foreknows what HE does.......Foreknowledge does not happen to God before He predestines things to be one way....

So we cant say that God looked into the future and saw me getting saved, and then just arranged it...For that would make God trapped in time as we were and always in need of cheating and looking at the back of the book for the answers so He knows what to do in the here and now.



The truth is that I was saved because that was always the plan.
And the plan cant be changed because the plan was always predetermined.

Thus God does indeed orchestrate events in all our lives to lead us to Himself, as was predetermined to happen before the world was created.

So we don't say that a person has several "chances" to becomes saved as if there were only individual "spots" in our lives when salvation was offered to us, rather what we do say is that the Lord is always at work orchestrating the lives of people to draw all men to Himself.

[Saxon]

as I said....

before the world was made...before the first sun was placed into the darkness of time and space....before any of the things that are now were made...before all this..

God saw me with Him.

As I said before, There is no doubt in my mind that what you say is a possibility and is likely true, God knows the beginning all the way through to the end. (See Isaiah 46:9 and 10)

Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:




And not just accidentally...
God was not just looking into the future....God was not looking at what "was to be"

That is what seeing the future is all about, “looking at what was to be”. Are you saying that we are all programmed and are all sinning where the program says sin and doing good where the program says do good?




God was looking at what is.

For God has no past,
God cant look into his future for he has none.

What makes you suspect that God is looking into his future? When God deals with mankind there is a beginning and an end (See Isaiah 46:10) you can even say a past, present and a future.




And so my salvation is not just a happy accident.
my salvation was not left up to me to decide and then inform God...
God did not sit and watch me make a choice with the outcome in my hands....NO!

If you think that is what I am espousing, show me where I have given you that Idea.




For God is a God of life and a God of action!.....not a god who sits and hopes for the best, with a back-up plan for whatever I might decide to do.


So this means that my salvation is an "act".....of God's Grace...
Not accidental, but rather it was predestined


And when things are predestined to happen one way, that can not happen any other way......

Show me the scripture that states that anyone’s personal salvation was predestined. You just stated that your salvation was predestined.

[Saxon]

Does God foreknow what we are going to do or does God foreknow what he will make us do?

[alanmolstad]

God always knew what matters would happen in "time" ...this is because God is not held by time....He is beyond the ability of time to bind and hold.

Thus its not a matter of God needing to look into the future, rather God is already present in the future as much as He is present in any single moment of time, (past/present/future).

So when we say that "Godforknows all things, we have to keep in mind that its not a matter of God looking into a crystal ball and getting a rough idea of what may one can happen.

No!......
Rather we can have full confidence in God, and in his predestination of our personal salvation because he is there in the future....he is the creator of the future.....just as much as he is here with us in our "now"....and also at the dawn of time...


Unlimited.....God is unlimited by the grip time.

[alanmolstad]

we humans look at time and its kinda like we read a book...or think of a book where there is a beginning, and a middle, and an ending.

So if someone says to you, turn to the first part of the book you know where to turn....
And if they say "turn to the last part of the book" you know what part of the book to look at.


But God is not bound by time in any way.
So in a small way, its like when we look at a painting.
For when we look at a painting there is no "beginning"...there is no "last part of the painting"
When you look at a painting you can take it all in at once, or you can study closely one small part of the painting....


thats kinda how I view God's relationship with what we call "time"
For God is not bound by time, and so when we ask "When was God born?" the question has no meaning and no connection to God.
God des not have a beginning
God does not have an ending.
God does not experience the p***ing of time.
God can not learn anything new.
God can not be surprised by something unknown to him...
God does not have to look into a crystal ball to see the ending of time, for he sees the ending just as clearly as he sees the beginning.

[Saxon]

That is all very nice but, Does God foreknow what we are going to do or does God foreknow what he will make us do?

[Saxon]

Does God foreknow what we are going to do or does God foreknow what he will make us do?

[alanmolstad]

Does God foreknow what we......?

would be a rather silly god unless he did...

[Saxon]

Does God foreknow what we are going to do or does God foreknow what he will make us do? This is not a question of God's mental stability but of what God foreknows. Answer the question directly.

[alanmolstad]

Does God foreknow what we are going to do......



The clear and direct answer I have to your question is..."yes"


He would be a rather silly god if He did not right?

The idea we get from the scriptures is that God is unlike us totally.
God is not bound by time and space.
So we don't think of God needing to "look" into the future that has not happened yet as if God also has to learn what is to be, rather the truth is that God is present in the future .



God is there, just as much as God is here in our "now"

[alanmolstad]

does God foreknow what he will make us do?


The clear and direct answer to your question is.....yes


God is not making up his will on the spir of the moment.
God is not constantly thinking up a different "Plan B" every time I do something.

The many,many examples we have in scripture also make this very clear....

for example the scriptures tell us that one day in the future the Master would arrive riding on a young colt.
Many years later Jesus tells his men to go into the city and find the young colt there and take it so that he can come riding into town on it.

Now consider the owner of the colt, and the reason he had the colt in that one spot on the earth and not somewhere else?
The owner of the colt could have taken it anywhere in the world that day, for the owner always has free will to do what he wants.

Yet the owner of the colt was where he was, and was there and could not be any other place...

Free will, and Gods sovereignty, working hand-in-hand




Another example is found in the story of Jonah and the Whale(or big fish, whatever)
In the story we see Jonah get tossed over the side of the ship and right away get ate up by a great fish that had been "prepared" by the Lord.
So the fish, (or whale, whatever it was) was not just swimming by and accidentally ate a man that happened by, but rather this was all, totally orchestrated by the Lord from the beginning of time to happen in only this one way...

So it was no accident that Jonah received the calling of God
It was no accident that he turned away from this calling
It was no accident there was a storm
It was no accident that Jonah suggested that the storm was his fault and they should toss him over the side
It was no accident that there was a fish swimming near the boat.
It was no accident that this fish was different than all other fish in the sea....
It was no accident that when the crew drew lots to see who was at fault for the storm that the lat fell on Jonah...




Was the drawing of the lot "predetermined by God to fall onto Jonah?....from the text I think the answer is clearly YES!

But yet at the same time was the drawing of lot was always completely within the rules of random chance found in nature?.......yes!

[Saxon]

Then God has predetermined every move that every man and woman will ever do. If this is the case where is free will that you say is working hand in hand with God's sovereignty?

I do believe that in the sovereignty of God, man has a free will and it is free from the influence of God, in that god does not force man to do what he does not want to do. What you have described as free will is a farce in that you answer yes that God foreknows what he will make us do.

[alanmolstad]

Then God has predetermined .....

Consider the Text at Romans 8:29

The text says "he also..."

Not "He therefore..."

This teaches us that God does not predestine things that he has to use his foreknowledge to see happen that way anyway....

"also".....

Not "later on".....Not "Because of"


The predestination of God is not dependent on how things happen anyway without Him...

In other words, God does not need to see how things end before he can predetermine how they will end....
A god who did that would be fake.

[alanmolstad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pENi3lEKH_E


Paul tells us the answer to all your questions in just 11 short verses....

Dr Walter Martin deals with all the questions and doubts you have about God's nature and control of this world

[Saxon]

Consider the Text at Romans 8:29

The text says "he also..."

Not "He therefore..."

This teaches us that God does not predestine things that he has to use his foreknowledge to see happen that way anyway....

"also".....

Not "later on".....Not "Because of"


The predestination of God is not dependent on how things happen anyway without Him...

In other words, God does not need to see how things end before he can predetermine how they will end....
A god who did that would be fake.

Yes, let us consider Romans 8:29. What did God foreknow? He foreknew those that would be in Christ were the ones that he would predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son. There is no text that states that he forced anyone to be saved or not to be saved. Your wild idea of what predestination and foreknowing is, is nothing more than vane imaginings on your part.

Let us go back to Ephesians 1:1 to 6. Here we find that it is only those that are in Christ that are predestined to anything that God predestines people to. It is only those that are in Christ that God has blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places. It is only those that are in Christ that he has chosen.

As far as predestination, so far we have only found that God has predestinated people to be conformed to the image of his Son (see Romans 8:29) and predestinated us unto the adoption of children. (See Ephesians 1:5) So far there is absolutely no mention of any predestination to salvation or hell for that matter. If there is anything in scripture that even suggests that, you will have to be kind enough to show me.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

[alanmolstad]

....... What did God foreknow?.......all things.....

God foreknew all things, and "also" predestined them to happen.
everything that will happen, from even before the beginning of time....


The word "also" is showing us that foreknowledge of God does not happen before He predestined things to happen.


Too many people believe that God just cheated and looked at the ending line up of people that make it to heaven one day, and think that God used that list of names to know who to predestine...

That is error!

Its error because it makes God into a person who is held by the grip of time.

But God is not so limited that he has to cheat by sneaking a peek at the answers in the back of the book to see who He should call and who he should not call.



Thus God sees me with him eternally in heaven with Himself, and has been seeing me there with Him from before the world was made.
Nothing was left to chance!
Nothing was left for someone else to decide
Nothing was left unknown.

Thus Im a saved Christian for only one reason...God made it so.
Im a Christian because that is the way God wanted it to be, and it is the way it has always been in His eyes....

[alanmolstad]

it reminds me of the conversation I had with a guy named Billy here on this forum.

And he believed that when God used people in the bible that this means they lacked what we call "Free will"

But I showed Billy how the Bible clearly teaches us in the story of the Exodus how God can fully and completely control a person like Pharaoh and yet at the same time God never needed to take away the free will of Pharaoh .

So that is why we read a story in the Bible where we see that Pharaoh was only doing exactly what God forced him to do, yet also we read that at no point was the free will of Pharaoh removed to do this.

[Saxon]

The answer is still centered on being "in Christ" This video you have supplied confirms it as well.

[alanmolstad]

the Pharaoh question:

many who disagree with the idea that men have Free Will always love to point to the text talking about Pharaoh.
the key thing that they want to point out is where the text clearly says that "God hardened his heart"

To some people this proves that Pharaoh lacked free will, because it seems God forced him to do stuff against his will.

But if you dig a bit deeper you see another thing in play too.
The other thing you see is that just as the text tells us that "God hardened Pharaoh's heart" is also teaches just as clearly that "Pharaoh hardened his own heart" too.

So the text actually claims both things were going on at the same time....

Yes, God is still Sovereign and God did hardened the heart of Pharaoh....and yes, Pharaoh did hardened his own heart at the same time too!


This is why I always tell people that the Bible teaches > "Man has Free Will, and God is Sovereign"




So in the real world, what does this mean to us today and our topic?
It means that when God does something in our lives, if He perfoms some action to put His plans into effect, He does so without needing to first take away our Free Will.

God did a work in the life of Pharaoh, but never even for a second needed to strip away the Free Will of Pharaoh to carry out His plans.


Its my understanding that the example we are given of God being able to carry out his plans yet maintaining the Free Will of Pharaoh is something that carries-over into all of our lives too.

If God has a plan for your life, and is at work in accomplishing His plan in your life, God does so without needing to take away your free Will!


how does God do this?.....we dont know.

But the information we get from the text leads us to the conclusion that Man's free will is not taken away, nor is a challenge to God....rather God's plans take the free will of men into full account at all times.

So when we read in the Bible where it teaches us that God bound someone, or held them, or stopped them from doing something, that we need to keep in mind the more complete example of this same thing going on in the life of Pharaoh.
For in the example of Pharaoh we can learn that while God has free will to do what he wants, so too does man have free will within the sovereignty of God over his world.

[Saxon]

If God forced Pharaoh, then there was no free will involved. You can't have it both ways.

[alanmolstad]

If God forced Pharaoh, then there was no free will involved. You can't have it both ways.


Yes you can...
Who says you cant?.....who made up such a rule?...

[alanmolstad]

Pharaoh was forced to do what he did by God.
He had no other path...it was set in stone to go the way it went from before the world was made...
Nothing was left for someone else to decide how it would go...
Nothing was left in doubt.
The Lord never left part of the story up to someone else to decide.

yet at the same time.

pharaoh had complete free will to do whatever he wanted to do.

[Saxon]

I do not think that you know what you are talking about. you contradict yourself using English terms that are contrary to what you are saying. "foreknowledge of God does not happen before He predestined things to happen." that is not foreknowledge, that is stating what God will do. If God looks to you in the future, say 22 November 2015, and says you will eat a green apple instead of the red one that is also available, that is foreknowledge. On 22 November 2015 you do eat the green apple instead of the red apple. This isn't because God caused you to eat the green apple it is because he saw you eat the green apple. There is a difference between predestination and foreknowledge. You don't seem to see the difference.

[alanmolstad]

I do not think that you know what you are talking about. .......

I have had this conversation before....


http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?3383-Free-Will/page50&highlight=free

[Saxon]

You likely can be wet and dry all over ant hte same time. Lots of luck on that.

[alanmolstad]

One time I was challenged by this question:
Romans 913 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Did God love Esau?


My answer was "yes"
and I showed how it is very true.
And to some who would read my words they would catch the meaning...
But others seem to only to get frustrated, and turn to personal attacks and insult etc.

[Saxon]

free will noun

: the ability to choose how to act

: the ability to make choices that are not controlled by fate or God

you are not correct according to http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/free%20will

[Saxon]

And your point is??

[alanmolstad]

And your point is??


Man has free will, and God is Sovereign.

[Saxon]

Show me your scriptural support that Pharaoh was "forced" to do what he did. You are a fatalist.

[Saxon]

fa•tal•ism noun \-tə-ˌli-zəm\

: the belief that what will happen has already been decided and cannot be changed

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fatalist

[alanmolstad]

Man has free will, and God is Sovereign.



I tell a story to people when the topic of free will comes up, as a way to help them see how you can have God forcing Pharaoh to do things, and yet at the same time allowing Pharaoh to have free will to make up his own mind what he wanted to do.


Think of being a p***enger on a great ship at sea.
You have the freedom to walk around the ship in a clockwise direction, or in the anti-clockwise direction.
Yet although you have this freedom you are still just a helpless p***enger on board a great ship that is always under the firm control of the Skipper.

So both your freedom (freewill) and the Skipper's control of the ship (God's Sovereignty) work hand-in-hand together without getting each other's way.

[Saxon]

the Pharaoh question:

many who disagree with the idea that men have Free Will always love to point to the text talking about Pharaoh.
the key thing that they want to point out is where the text clearly says that "God hardened his heart"

To some people this proves that Pharaoh lacked free will, because it seems God forced him to do stuff against his will.

But if you dig a bit deeper you see another thing in play too.
The other thing you see is that just as the text tells us that "God hardened Pharaoh's heart" is also teaches just as clearly that "Pharaoh hardened his own heart" too.

So the text actually claims both things were going on at the same time....

Yes, God is still Sovereign and God did hardened the heart of Pharaoh....and yes, Pharaoh did hardened his own heart at the same time too!


This is why I always tell people that the Bible teaches > "Man has Free Will, and God is Sovereign"

You have come to the correct conclusion but you reasoning is totally out to lunch. God is Sovereign and within the sovereignty of God man has free will. God wants to save people, but people must respond to the call of God. God’s sovereignty does not make him a holy crybaby that gets his own way or nothing. The Bible is clear that it is not God’s will that any should parish but that all should come to repentance. (See 2 Peter 3:9) It is obvious that not all will come to repentance. Does this mean that God’s sovereignty is lost or even challenged? No because in the sovereignty of God man has been allowed to have a free will even if it goes against what God wants.

As far as God hardening Pharaoh’s heart, God did not do the deed but Pharaoh did it of his own accord in an act of rebellion and defiance of God. That is why it is said that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart. If God so loved the world, why would he harden anyone’s heart????

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[Saxon]

that is true.

[Saxon]

God forcing is still contrary to free will.

Being on many ships I know that I have no will to go too far forward, aft, port or starboard. It soon becomes equivalent to taking a long walk on a short pier.

[alanmolstad]

So both your freedom (freewill) and the Skipper's control of the ship (God's Sovereignty) work hand-in-hand together without getting each other's way.

So this is why I try to point people to the true understanding of the life of Pharaoh.
The Bible clearly tells us that Pharaoh was being controlled by God.
There was nothing left to chance here by the Lord.
The Lord wanted Pharaoh to act and do things, and that is just what Pharaoh did.....

And yet at the same time we also read in other parts that Pharaoh was alone responsible for his actions.


When you study this story you also learn about how God interacts with the whole rest of creation too.
For there is nothing in the text to suggest that what happened to Pharaoh was any different than the way God treats all others....

So I believe God treats me in the same manner.
Im under the full control of God at all times, and that yet is also at work within my human free will to be free of any control over my life at all.


So when people tell me, that I cant believe in free will if I also believe God controlled Pharaoh I just smile....

[Saxon]

you say "we read"; where do we read?? I agree that God treated Pharaoh the same as he treats the rest of the human race. God is not a respecter of persons.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

[Saxon]

I do appreciate that you believe in free will. I think that is great.

[alanmolstad]

...... You were not chosen or predestined to anything until you were saved.... .

Your statement is just wrong.

[Saxon]

Your statement is just wrong.

And your statement is very informative. Don’t just tell me that my statement is wrong, help me to see the error of my statement if it is so wrong.

You are going to explain how you are in Christ before you were born into the world and how you were in Christ before you were saved. It is all to those that are in Christ Jesus, in Christ, in him, and in the beloved. None can be in Christ without being first born into the world, the natural birth, and then being born again, the spiritual birth.

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

[alanmolstad]

Im writing a book right now.
I have the outline all worked out,and I know what each of the charactors are about and what happends to each during the story.
The main hero of the story will be a spy who helps stop the world from ****ing up.

Like I said Im in the middle of writing this story and at this point in the writing the hero is about 10 years old and is in school.

I wonder at what point did I predetermine him to become a spy?


The answer is- Even before I sat down and first lifted pen to paper I had already decided and predetermined the hero's fate.
It was the story from the very beginning.

[alanmolstad]

My point?


My point is that God does not "predetermine" anything "after' anything....


Nothing came before God's predetermination.

[alanmolstad]

This topic reminds me of a guy who used to post here all the time.
He had the idea that God simply predestined the people who he first foreknew.

In his view,God looked into the future, He saw who of the humans would believe, and so God then knew who to therefore predestine to be a believer.


I totally disagreed with that whole idea he had.

I pointed out that his idea made god 'trapped" in time with the rest of us...for God had to "learn" who to predestine "before" he could predestine anyone.

That is why my friend's idea was in error...

For the truth is, that God's foreknowledge does not happen apart or before His predestination.

[Saxon]

Do you believe that God has predestined those that believe to be believers? If so are the rest predestined to hell?

[alanmolstad]

from the beginning of all.....not just known are we to the Lord...not just by his ability to know the future does god call us ,,but because it was predetermined as well...

[alanmolstad]

what we want to avoid is thinking God is as trapped in time as we are.

By this I mean, that some people believe that God simply predestined the same people that his knowledge of the future told him that one day would believe in Him.

This cant be right as it means God had to cheat and look at what finally happens in the future before He knows what people predestine.

This is not the god of the bible.


The God of the Bible is not trapped in time, therefore He does not do one thing before another.
He cant learn one thing before he learns another...

and that mans he cant use his foreknowledge of the future to help him know who to predestine.

[alanmolstad]

so if God picked us out before the beginning of the world, how can we then turn around and say God did not predistine some to Hell?

This is how -

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=walter+martin+predestination&FORM=VIRE1#view=detail&mid=C5F5DCA5DD2FF391692BC5F5DCA5DD2FF391692B


Calvin is wrong to say that some are predestined to hell

Arminianism is wrong to say we get to heaven on our own

[Saxon]

Do you believe that God has predestined those that believe to be believers?

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

What does it mean to be “in Christ” “in him” “in the beloved”? Has he not chosen us in him before the foundation of the world? No one was in him before the foundation of the world. He would not have to know if any were going to be in Christ he still said that he has blessed us in Christ, he has chosen us in him, we are accepted in the beloved. Even in the video, Walter Martin said that it is “in Christ” and that we had to get there in time.

It is only those that are in Christ are we predestined to anything. Not before salvation.

[alanmolstad]

Do you believe that God has predestined those that believe to be believers?

.
the answer to the question is to point back to the recording by Walter martin.
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...A5DD2FF391692B


and to point out my post number #54 above,
reprinted now here -


"Im writing a book right now.
I have the outline all worked out,and I know what each of the charactors are about and what happends to each during the story.
The main hero of the story will be a spy who helps stop the world from ****ing up.

Like I said Im in the middle of writing this story and at this point in the writing the hero is about 10 years old and is in school.

I wonder at what point did I predetermine him to become a spy?


The answer is- Even before I sat down and first lifted pen to paper I had already decided and predetermined the hero's fate.
It was the story from the very beginning. "

[Saxon]

So answer the question. Yes. No. pick one.

[alanmolstad]

So answer the question. Yes. No. pick one.

thee answer is this-

Calvin is wrong to say that some are predestined to hell
Arminianism is wrong to say we get to heaven on our own


I listened again to the recording of Dr Martin, and I narrowed down the whole thing to one moment that is centered on the very question you are asking..

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=walter+martin+predestination&FORM=VIRE1#view=detail&mid=C5F5DCA5DD2FF391692BC5F5DCA5DD2FF391692B
Click on the recording at the 5:00 moment and you will here just what I think, as spoken by someone a lot smarter than I am.

[alanmolstad]

so what Walter and I believe is that this is a question that has no answer.


On the one hand we have the sovereignty of God, He does not accidently end up with me in heaven with him, I was there from the beginning, I was always the plan....God did not make up the list of saved as He saw us respond...NO!
The list of the saved was written by Himself before the world began.


and...

on the other hand, we have the free will of man....For we are called to respond to be saved.


There is no answer to this dilemma.

People that come at the question from the side of Calvin are blind to the free will of man.
People that come at this question from the side of Arminianism are blind to the sovereignty of God.

Both are both blind and dead wrong, and slightly correct on a few points too.






Now when I run into a guy on one side or the other, its always the same, they always feel that i must have overlooked a key verse that once they share with me will convince me of their sides correctness.

Both sides always feel that I lack just knowing one more verse....LOL


But both sides are blind to the truths held by the other side, and do not dare admit the other side has some truth on their side because when you hide behind a wall against the enemy its hard to admit that you also see there is a bridge that connects both walls with each other.


By Seeing the truths held by the other side is where people stop hiding and learn to admit that not everything is known about how God is God.

[Saxon]

The question was and is, Do YOU believe that God has predestined those that believe to be believers? You must know what you believe!

[alanmolstad]

now how doi i teach members of my own Bible cl***, how to understand how God can be a sovereign, and have predetermined before the world began who would be with him in Glory, and yet at the same time also have a Christian faith that requires the person to hear and believe in order to be saved?


I try to tell a story that shows how this works in our lives.



You are on a great ship at sea.
the Skipper of the ship is the only one on the ship that has the authority to predetermine where the ship goes.
However the skipper has also granted the p***engers on-board the ship a limited amount of freedom to be able to walk around on the ship's deck.

So you as a p***enger walk out onto the deck, and decide to walk "clockwise",,,and so you have the limited freedom that does allow you to move your legs and walk clockwise around the ship's deck if you want...So you walk to the clockwise.


But the ship you are on is actually headed to the West.
the ship will arrive at the port on time in the west.....your freedom to walk clockwise do not interferer with the travel of the ship at all.

You never lost your limited freedom

You wanted to walk in one direction, and you did.
Its just that while you were doing that, the ship itself was going only in the direction the skipper wanted, regardless of your plans.


So the freedom we enjoy as p***engers can not overpower the command of the Skipper to control the ship.





its the same , with our lives and the sovereignty of God.

we have free will...we can do what we want, and we alone are responsible for the decisions we make.
and yet at the same time- God and god alone has predetermined who of us by name, will be with him in heaven, and He did this before the first sun burned in the darkness of space....

[alanmolstad]

so its like Walter Martin says......its a dilemma.

[Saxon]

so what Walter and I believe is that this is a question that has no answer.

So what does it mean to be “in Christ” “in him” “in the beloved”? I suppose that has no answer either.




On the one hand we have the sovereignty of God, He does not accidently end up with me in heaven with him, I was there from the beginning, I was always the plan....God did not make up the list of saved as He saw us respond...NO!
The list of the saved was written by Himself before the world began.


and...

on the other hand, we have the free will of man....For we are called to respond to be saved.

And respond we must!!




There is no answer to this dilemma.

The answer is, within the sovereignty of God, God has given man a free will that man is responsible to use and for how he uses the free will that God has allowed man to have and use.




People that come at the question from the side of Calvin are blind to the free will of man.
People that come at this question from the side of Arminianism are blind to the sovereignty of God.

Both are both blind and dead wrong, and slightly correct on a few points too.

Unfortunately for that theory, I believe in the sovereignty of God and the free will of man.




Now when I run into a guy on one side or the other, its always the same, they always feel that i must have overlooked a key verse that once they share with me will convince me of their sides correctness.

Both sides always feel that I lack just knowing one more verse....LOL

I think that you know the verses but you haven’t found the way they work. Just as Walter said “In Christ”. In Christ is the key and being aware of when you actually were “in Christ” is a large clue to when a person is predestined. Listen to Walter again and see if he doesn't say that it happened in real time. Your arrival in Christ is concurrent with salvation.


But both sides are blind to the truths held by the other side, and do not dare admit the other side has some truth on their side because when you hide behind a wall against the enemy its hard to admit that you also see there is a bridge that connects both walls with each other.


By Seeing the truths held by the other side is where people stop hiding and learn to admit that not everything is known about how God is God.

It is not how God is God, but how God operates. The sovereignty of God and the free will of man in reality is too easy and no mystery when you believe exactly what Ephesians 1:3 to 7 says.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

[alanmolstad]

yes..... :) as I said.....both sides of the issue always believe that with "just one more verse" then their side will be seen as being right.....LOL


Both sides are both slightly correct and dead wrong at the same time.....

[alanmolstad]

when did I predestine the hero in my story would be a spy?

[Saxon]

we have free will...we can do what we want, and we alone are responsible for the decisions we make.
and yet at the same time- God and god alone has predetermined who of us by name, will be with him in heaven, and He did this before the first sun burned in the darkness of space....

Where does it say that God has predetermined who of us by name, will be with him in heaven? I can show you where God has said that he will predestine those that are in Christ to adoption of children, but you can't show me where God has predetermined who of us by name, will be with him in heaven. You and Walter have already said that Calvin was wrong on this very point. But you want it both ways when it is convenient.

[alanmolstad]

when did I predestine the hero in my story would be a spy?
the answer is...?


The answer is that I predistined the hero to be a spy before I picked up the pen and paper.

The decision was already made...the whole life already planned out fully.
Nothing was left in doubt about the fate of the hero.
The story had yet to be written, but it was already predetermined how it would end for the hero.


its the same with my salvation.....
It was already a done-deal...predetermined, with zero left for chance or me to screw up....


Thats what it means to believe in predestination....that all events are not just 'known" but also planned for,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination

[Saxon]

So what does it mean to be “in Christ” “in him” “in the beloved”? I suppose that has no answer either.

[Saxon]

You are not on the same level as the creator of all that is created.

[alanmolstad]

But you want it both ways when it is convenient.

Like I said....its a dilemma...thats what the term means!....

Both sides are in error, and are dead wrong.
and have some truth to them at the same time...

[alanmolstad]

You are not on the same level as the creator of all that is created.
Yes, thats why my salvation had to be predetermined, as to not allow me to screw up...LOL

[alanmolstad]

this is all gone over in detail on the recording...did you listen to it at all?



I love how I will say something like, "God predetermined my salvation"...and the anti-Calvinist will react and try to show me a ton over verses that "prove" that God only reacts to what he sees us choose...


on the other hand, if I tell a Calvinist that "I have free will and i also decided if I wanted to believe or not" then they will have a whole list of bible verses that "prove" God is alone sovereign....



Both sides are right up to a point..
and dead wrong too

[Saxon]

So your life is a programmed happening and you spend your life mindlessly executing code and following instructions that God has programmed you with.

[Saxon]

I have been listening to Walter Martin since the early 70's and I can say that I did listen to him before you posted it and I did listen to the pot you made.

[alanmolstad]

So your life is a programmed happening and you spend your life mindlessly executing code and following instructions that God has programmed you with.LOL......

its like ...."cl***ic"

Tell a Calvinist that I have free Will and they have a cow, and accuse me of wanting to be God.
Tell an Anti-Calvinist that God is Sovereign and they call me a robot.



some people's kids.....

[alanmolstad]

So your life is a programmed happening and you spend your life mindlessly executing code and following instructions that God has programmed you with.

The answer I teach is found in my story of the p***enger on a great ship.

We always have freedom, yet our freedom never for a moment actually trumps the authority of the Skipper of the ship to direct our lives where he and he alone wants it to go.

[alanmolstad]

So when the Skipper gives a command for the ship to go when He wants it to go, he is not worried about what direction we walk on the ship at the time...
Its all already taken into account.

[Saxon]

Then explain yourself so one doesn't reach the robot conclusion. You have a short memory, I also believe that God is Sovereign. Try to remember what you read and try to comprehend it.

[alanmolstad]

its the very same in out lives.

before the world began, before the first sun burned in the sky,,,,I was predetermined to be with the Lord forever in glory.
me....personally....

Not just "guys like me......not just believersin general...not just the lucky few who do the right thing in the end...NO!



me personally...

[alanmolstad]

You have a short memory, .....

Try to remember what you read and try to comprehend it.

I think we are done here now....

i will post a few more recordings to answer any other questions any might have....

[Saxon]

So you do believe that God has predestined those that believe to be believers.

[alanmolstad]

So you do believe that God has predestined those that believe to be believers.
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=walter+martin+predestination&FORM=VIRE1#view=detail&mid=C5F5DCA5DD2FF391692BC5F5DCA5DD2FF391692B


the answer is found at 3:40 to 4:44

[Saxon]

Why are you so reluctant to state your own belief? Yes or no will clearly answer the question.

[alanmolstad]

You can read what the answer is.

You just don't seem to like this answer

[Saxon]

I do not wish to jump to conclusions, so yes or no.

[alanmolstad]

I do not wish to jump to conclusions, so yes or no. see post number #78

Or simply refer to the recording by Martin

[Saxon]

What is so hard about yes or no??

[alanmolstad]

what is so hard about the fact that I have answered that question enough times to now tell you that 'we have covered that"....and "move on"?

We have already covered that.

Move on...

For as Walter martin points out, there is no way to reconcile the free will of man to God's sovereignty...and yet that is what we see in the bible...

Man does have free will.
God is alone sovereign....


see the answer is found at 3:40 to 4:44 of the recording

[Saxon]

You have not given me a simple answer that I can clearly understand. You tell me stories, refer me to Walter Martin, but never directly answer the question. A simple yes or no will clear it up for me as far as understanding your position. How about it, I am an old man.

[alanmolstad]

My answer:
When did I predetermined the hero would be a spy?

[Saxon]

Yes or no will make it clear. Are you afraid to be clear about what you believe?

[alanmolstad]

Move
.on...

[Saxon]

Why not answer the question? Yes or No!!!

[alanmolstad]

Why not answer the question? Yes or No!!!you can go ahead and copy/paste the same question over and over a few dozen more times if you like....

I will just hang back and allow you to get that out of your system.


When you have had enough, just let me know and I can wrap it all up with a link to the Martin recording as well as tell you go check my post number #78 for my own take on the topic.







have fun....

[Saxon]

That is very Christian of you. Are you just out to win an argument or are you interested in sharing ideas as to what the truth is? You can't get ahead if you are not willing to give of yourself. All I am asking is a clear and truthful answer to the question and then we can go on to a better knowledge of truth if it is truth you are looking for. You won't gain anything by trying to annoy people. A simple yes or no and we can go further.

[alanmolstad]

like I said.......as many times as you need....

[alanmolstad]

as I said....

before the world was made...before the first sun was placed into the darkness of time and space....before any of the things that are now were made...before all this..

God saw me with Him.

And not just accidentally...
God was not just looking into the future....God was not looking at what "was to be"

God was looking at what is.

For God has no past,
God cant look into his future for he has none.

And so my salvation is not just a happy accident.
my salvation was not left up to me to decide and then inform God...
God did not sit and watch me make a choice with the outcome in my hands....NO!

For God is a God of life and a God of action!.....not a god who sits and hopes for the best, with a back-up plan for whatever I might decide to do.


So this means that my salvation is an "act".....of God's Grace...
Not accidental, but rather it was predestined

And when things are predestined to happen one way, they can not happen any other way......

One of my better posted comments on this issue...



When things are predestined by God to happen one way, they can not happen any other way......AMEN!