Let's discuss it

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon View PostThose that did nothing got fired.One more time. Works has nothing to do with GETTING saved, Works do not and will not get you saved. Works are required after you are saved.


Required for what?


Required to live a Christian Life. (See Ephesians 2:10) Do you think that we are just to sit around and wait for the sweet by and by???

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

I believe this post contains some very interesting components that beg to be discussed by Christians. I am referring to BIBLICAL discussions--not personal man-made doctrines or opinions.

First--the comment that one is not saved by works.

The scriptures agree--one is not saved by works--but by God's grace. Once one accepts that--the next question should follow--who receives of this grace? If what the Bible testifies to is true--those who obey Him:

Hebrews 5:9----King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

And withholds that grace from those who do not obey Him:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9----King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Those two points defy faith alone theology--which preach a salvation through a faith without works.

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[disciple]

I believe this post contains some very interesting components that beg to be discussed by Christians. I am referring to BIBLICAL discussions--not personal man-made doctrines or opinions.

First--the comment that one is not saved by works.

The scriptures agree--one is not saved by works--but by God's grace. Once one accepts that--the next question should follow--who receives of this grace? If what the Bible testifies to is true--those who obey Him:

Hebrews 5:9----King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

And withholds that grace from those who do not obey Him:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9----King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Those two points defy faith alone theology--which preach a salvation through a faith without works.

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Hi,

I think for any discussion to be profitable it should be clear to all what's being discussed. Can you define 1st "salvation" and 2nd "grace"
Thanks.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostI believe this post contains some very interesting components that beg to be discussed by Christians. I am referring to BIBLICAL discussions--not personal man-made doctrines or opinions.

First--the comment that one is not saved by works.

The scriptures agree--one is not saved by works--but by God's grace. Once one accepts that--the next question should follow--who receives of this grace? If what the Bible testifies to is true--those who obey Him:

Hebrews 5:9----King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

And withholds that grace from those who do not obey Him:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9----King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Those two points defy faith alone theology--which preach a salvation through a faith without works.

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


Hi,

I think for any discussion to be profitable it should be clear to all what's being discussed. Can you define 1st "salvation" and 2nd "grace"
Thanks.

Hi Disciple.

When I refer to "salvation"--I'm referring to eternal life.

Grace is what God does for us we can't do for ourselves. And my focal point is salvational grace. An example of God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him might be found here:

Acts 2:38King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[disciple]

Hi Disciple.

When I refer to "salvation"--I'm referring to eternal life.

Grace is what God does for us we can't do for ourselves. And my focal point is salvational grace. And example of God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him might be found here:

Acts 2:38King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Can a person obey God without His grace? It sounds like you are saying that grace comes by obedience.
Romans 5:1-2 - Having been justified by faith, we have peace with God ... we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand. We are no longer enemies of God.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostHi Disciple.

When I refer to "salvation"--I'm referring to eternal life.

Grace is what God does for us we can't do for ourselves. And my focal point is salvational grace. And example of God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him might be found here:

Acts 2:38King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Can a person obey God without His grace?

People can obey God and not even realize there is a God. Atheists can live moral lives--and not believe in God.

What, specifically--is your point?


It sounds like you are saying that grace comes by obedience.

Salvational grace, as a personal reception--is given to them that obey God--just as the scriptures state:

Hebrews 5:9----King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


Disciple--could you explain for us what it is about repentance and water baptism you don't consider our obedience to Jesus Christ--or what it is about the remission of sins you don't consider God's salvational grace?


Romans 5:1-2 - Having been justified by faith, we have peace with God ... we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand. We are no longer enemies of God.

When you find the term "faith" in the scriptures--as in Romans5:1-2 above--are you thinking that is a reference to a dead faith--or a faith with works?

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

[disciple]

People can obey God and not even realize there is a God. Atheists can live moral lives--and not believe in God.

What, specifically--is your point?



Salvational grace, as a personal reception--is given to them that obey God--just as the scriptures state:

Hebrews 5:9----King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


Disciple--could you explain for us what it is about repentance and water baptism you don't consider our obedience to Jesus Christ--or what it is about the remission of sins you don't consider God's salvational grace?



When you find the term "faith" in the scriptures--as in Romans5:1-2 above--are you thinking that is a reference to a dead faith--or a faith with works?

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Hi DB,

First I will say that I believe that salvation is by faith alone but works will always follow as fruit of that salvation. Just as Jesus said. "if you love me keep my commandments", loving Him causes you to keep those commands. One is the result of the other like faith and works. My question is does a lost person obey unto salvation or does the lost person hear the truth, believe unto salvation and is now capable of obedience?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post People can obey God and not even realize there is a God. Atheists can live moral lives--and not believe in God.

What, specifically--is your point?

Salvational grace, as a personal reception--is given to them that obey God--just as the scriptures state:

Hebrews 5:9----King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Disciple--could you explain for us what it is about repentance and water baptism you don't consider our obedience to Jesus Christ--or what it is about the remission of sins you don't consider God's salvational grace?

When you find the term "faith" in the scriptures--as in Romans5:1-2 above--are you thinking that is a reference to a dead faith--or a faith with works?

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.


Hi DB,

First I will say that I believe that salvation is by faith alone but works will always follow as fruit of that salvation.

Hi Disciple.

I know. But the fact is--there is but one mention of "faith alone" found in the whole Biblical text:

James 2:24----New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


Just as Jesus said. "if you love me keep my commandments", loving Him causes you to keep those commands. One is the result of the other like faith and works.

But that is welding them together. The faith alone believe in a faith without works in salvation. Any connecting faith to works is following salvation--in the faith alone theology.


My question is does a lost person obey unto salvation or does the lost person hear the truth, believe unto salvation and is now capable of obedience?

There is no salvation without obedience to Christ:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9----King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Could you point us to scriptures that preach a salvation without obedience to Christ?

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

[disciple]

Hi Disciple.

I know. But the fact is--there is but one mention of "faith alone" found in the whole Biblical text:

James 2:24----New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.



But that is welding them together. The faith alone believe in a faith without works in salvation. Any connecting faith to works is following salvation--in the faith alone theology.



There is no salvation without obedience to Christ:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9----King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Could you point us to scriptures that preach a salvation without obedience to Christ?

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Hi DB,

I am not discounting obedience to Christ, if you call Him Lord you best obey Him or you are fooling yourself. But the lost are enemies of Christ they cannot obey Him, it is after hearing the gospel and believing that we have the power of the Holy Spirit to obey. To be justified (james 2:24) means to be declared righteous only a born again person can be justified. Romans 4:2-3 "For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Works and obedience come after salvation they are the fruit of salvation. If obedience was a prerequisite to salvation none could be saved.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostHi Disciple.

I know. But the fact is--there is but one mention of "faith alone" found in the whole Biblical text:

James 2:24----New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

But that is welding them together. The faith alone believe in a faith without works in salvation. Any connecting faith to works is following salvation--in the faith alone theology.

There is no salvation without obedience to Christ:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9----King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Could you point us to scriptures that preach a salvation without obedience to Christ?

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


Hi DB,

I am not discounting obedience to Christ, if you call Him Lord you best obey Him or you are fooling yourself.

Then why do the faith alone preach a gospel of salvation through faith without works? A dead faith saves?


But the lost are enemies of Christ they cannot obey Him,

Of course they can. All are lost until they obey Christ. We all were lost until we obeyed Him.


it is after hearing the gospel and believing that we have the power of the Holy Spirit to obey.

There is something about that claim I believe we need to examine:

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

[dberrie2000]

Hi DB, To be justified (james 2:24) means to be declared righteous only a born again person can be justified.

The early church fathers were unified in connecting repentance and water baptism to the born again experience:

ST. JUSTIN MARTYR (inter A.D. 148-155)

Whoever is convinced and believes that what they are taught and told by us is the truth, and professes to be able to live accordingly, is instructed to pray and to beseech God in fasting for the remission of their former sins, while we pray and fast with them. Then they are led by us to a place where there is water; and there they are reborn in the same kind of rebirth in which we ourselves were reborn: In the name of God, the Lord and Father of all, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they receive the washing with water. For Christ said, "Unless you be reborn, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." ...The reason for doing this, we have learned from the Apostles. (The First Apology 61)

================================================== ========
ST. IRENAEUS (c. A.D. 190)

"And [Naaman] dipped himself...seven times in the Jordan" [2 Kings 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: "Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Fragment 34)

================================================== ======================
TERTULLIAN (inter A.D. 200-206)

A treatise on our sacrament of water, by which the sins of our earlier blindness are washed away and we are released for eternal life will not be superfluous.....taking away death by the washing away of sins. The guilt being removed, the penalty, of course, is also removed.....Baptism is itself a corporal act by which we are plunged in water, while its effect is spiritual, in that we are freed from sins. (On Baptism 1:1; 5:6; 7:2)

...no one can attain salvation without Baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says: "Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life." (On Baptism 12:1)

================================================== ======================
RECOGNITIONS OF CLEMENT (c. A.D. 221)

But you will perhaps say, "What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?" In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so ...you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true Prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: "Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water....he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Recognitions 6:9)

================================================== ========
ST. CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE (c. 200 - 258 A.D.)

[When] they receive also the Baptism of the Church...then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God...since it is written, "Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (Letters 71[72]:1)[It] behooves those to be baptized...so that they are prepared, in the lawful and true and only Baptism of the holy Church, by divine regeneration, for the kingdom of God...because it is written, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (Letters 72[73]:21)

================================================== ======================
SEVENTH COUNCIL OF CARTHAGE (c. A.D. 256)

And in the gospel our Lord Jesus Christ spoke with his divine voice, saying, "Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." ...Unless therefore they receive saving Baptism in the Catholic Church, which is one, they cannot be saved, but will be condemned with the carnal in the judgment of the Lord Christ.
================================================== ========
ST. CYRIL OF JERUSALEM (c. A.D. 350)
If any man does not receive Baptism, he does not have salvation. The only exception is the martyrs, who, even without water, will receive the kingdom....for the Savior calls martyrdom a Baptism (cf. Mark 10:38) ...Bearing your sins, you go down into the water; but the calling down of grace seals your soul and does not permit that you afterwards be swallowed up by the fearsome dragon. You go down dead in your sins, and come up made alive in righteousness. (Catechetical Lectures 3:10,12)

Since man is of a twofold nature, composed of body and soul, the purification also is twofold: the corporeal for the corporeal and the incorporeal for the incorporeal. The water cleanses the body, and the Spirit seals the soul....When you go down into the water, then, regard not simply the water, but look for salvation through the power of the Holy Spirit. For without both you cannot attain to perfection. It is not I who says this, but the Lord Jesus Christ, who has the power in this matter.

And He says, "Unless a man be born again" -- and He adds the words "of water and of the Spirit" -- "he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." He that is baptized with water, but is not found worthy of the Spirit, does not receive the grace in perfection. Nor, if a man be virtuous in his deeds, but does not receive the seal by means of the water, shall he enter the kingdom of heaven.

A bold saying, but not mine; for it is Jesus who has declared it.

(Catechetical Lectures 3:4)

================================================== ======================
ST. BASIL THE GREAT (c. A.D. 330 - 379)

For prisoners, Baptism is ransom, forgiveness of debts, death of sin, regeneration of the soul, a resplendent garment, an unbreakable seal, a chariot to heaven, a protector royal, a gift of adoption. (Sermons on Moral and Practical Subjects: On Baptism 13:5)

This then is what it means to be "born again of water and Spirit" : just as our dying is effected in the water [Rom 6:3-4; Col 2:11-13], our living is wrought through the Spirit. In three immersions and in an equal number of invocations the great mystery of Baptism is completed in such a way that the type of death may be shown figuratively, and that by the handing on of divine knowledge the souls of the baptized may be illuminated. If, therefore, there is any grace in the water, it is not from the nature of water but from the Spirit's presence there. (On the Holy Spirit 15:35)

================================================== ======================
ST. AMBROSE OF MILAN (c. A.D. 333 - 397)

The Church was redeemed at the price of Christ's blood. Jew or Greek, it makes no difference; but if he has believed, he must circumcise himself from his sins [in Baptism -- Col 2:11-13] so that he can be saved...for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the sacrament of Baptism...."Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (On Abraham 2:11:79,84)

You have read, therefore, that the three witnesses in Baptism are one: water, blood and the Spirit [1 John 5:8]: and if you withdraw any one of these, the sacrament of Baptism is not valid. For what is the water without the cross of Christ? A common element with no sacramental effect. Nor on the other hand is there any mystery of regeneration without water: for "unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (On the Mysteries 4:20)

================================================== ========
APOSTOLIC CONS***UTIONS (c. A.D. 400)

Be ye likewise contented with one Baptism alone, that which is into the death of the Lord [Rom 6:3-4; Col 2:11-13]...he that out of contempt will not be baptized shall be condemned as an unbeliever and shall be reproached as ungrateful and foolish. For the Lord says, "Except a man be baptized of water and of the Spirit, he shall by no means enter into the kingdom of heaven." And again, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be ****ed." (6:3:15)

[disciple]

Then why do the faith alone preach a gospel of salvation through faith without works? A dead faith saves?



Of course they can. All are lost until they obey Christ. We all were lost until we obeyed Him.



There is something about that claim I believe we need to examine:

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.


Do faith and works come at the same time? No. The branch must be attached to the vine. Jesus said "without Me you can do nothing". A dead faith is a false faith .
What command did the thief on the cross obey, what work did he show to go along with his faith. He believed and he was saved and if he lived he would have obeyed Christ and served Him with good works.

[alanmolstad]

its not faith alone...

Its not by works alone.

Its not by any mix of faith and works alone...




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M

[disciple]

its not faith alone...

Its not by works alone.

Its not by any mix of faith and works alone...




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M

good example.

[alanmolstad]

good example.

Once in a while I see a discussion going on between people on the question of works VS faith...
And I like to take the oppertunity to point out that its not Work vs Faith at all.....

We are not saved by works, just as we are not saved by faith.

The video should help people start to see that Christians are saved only by Grace ALONE!




So its not Faith vs Works...

Its not Faith plus works...

Its not Faith first, then works.....

Its not any combination of faith and Works at all....and it never was!

[alanmolstad]

So this means that the video gives us the answer....



and there is no other answer.

[dberrie2000]

Do faith and works come at the same time? No. The branch must be attached to the vine. Jesus said "without Me you can do nothing". A dead faith is a false faith .
What command did the thief on the cross obey,

Hi Disciple:

How does the thief on the cross somehow negate the fact the scriptures have God's salvational grace going to them that obey Him?

Revelation 22:14----King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

What is your evidence the thief was not baptized here?

Mark 1:1-5---King James Version (KJV)
1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.


what work did he show to go along with his faith. He believed and he was saved and if he lived he would have obeyed Christ and served Him with good works.

There is but one place the Biblical record shows Christ after His death:

1 Peter 3:18-19----King James Version (KJV)
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Again--how are you using that to negate the Biblical testimony?

2 John 1:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

[disciple]

Hi Disciple:

How does the thief on the cross somehow negate the fact the scriptures have God's salvational grace going to them that obey Him?

Revelation 22:14----King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

What is your evidence the thief was not baptized here?

Mark 1:1-5---King James Version (KJV)
1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.



There is but one place the Biblical record shows Christ after His death:

1 Peter 3:18-19----King James Version (KJV)
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Again--how are you using that to negate the Biblical testimony?

2 John 1:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Hi DB,

You said this in post #3 "Grace is what God does for us we can't do for ourselves". That's the point, if we have to somehow meet some standard to receive saving grace we won't because as you said we can't. Our obedience and changed heart will produce fruit (works) and this is the proof that one is born again. And who is this proof for? Does God need to see works and obedience to know we are saved? He sees our heart, the proof is for us and those around us as a witness and encouragement and to give God glory. Your reference to 2 John 1:9 also makes the same point, if you are continually transgressing it's because you haven't received God's saving grace by faith, if you are obeying the doctrine of Christ its because you are saved not because your obedience will save you.

[dberrie2000]

Hi DB,
You said this in post #3 "Grace is what God does for us we can't do for ourselves". That's the point, if we have to somehow meet some standard to receive saving grace we won't because as you said we can't.

Hi Disciple. I did not state we can't obey God in order to receive of His salvational grace--I defined salvational grace as something that God does for us that we can't do for ourselves.

I posted Acts2:38 as an example:

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I made the point this is an example of God extending His salvational grace to them that obey Him.

You do realize the obedience of repentance and water baptism is not the grace? It's what they received because of the obedience of repentance and water baptism--the remission of sins--that is God's salvational grace.

The Biblical NT has God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him. Repentance and water baptism is something we can do for ourselves--the remission of sins is not.


Our obedience and changed heart will produce fruit (works)

I agree--and those fruits are necessary for His grace unto life:

Matthew 7:19-20---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.


and this is the proof that one is born again. And who is this proof for? Does God need to see works and obedience to know we are saved? He sees our heart, the proof is for us and those around us as a witness and encouragement and to give God glory. Your reference to 2 John 1:9 also makes the same point, if you are continually transgressing it's because you haven't received God's saving grace by faith,

But that is a connection between works and grace. The fact is--those who do not obey the gospel do not receive of God's grace:

Romans 2:5-11King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Disciple--there is no such thing as faith alone theology found in the Biblical NT.

[disciple]

Hi Disciple. I did not state we can't obey God in order to receive of His salvational grace--I defined salvational grace as something that God does for us that we can't do for ourselves.

I posted Acts2:38 as an example:

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I made the point this is an example of God extending His salvational grace to them that obey Him.

You do realize the obedience of repentance and water baptism is not the grace? It's what they received because of the obedience of repentance and water baptism--the remission of sins--that is God's salvational grace.

The Biblical NT has God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him. Repentance and water baptism is something we can do for ourselves--the remission of sins is not.



I agree--and those fruits are necessary for His grace unto life:

Matthew 7:19-20---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.



But that is a connection between works and grace. The fact is--those who do not obey the gospel do not receive of God's grace:

Romans 2:5-11King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Disciple--there is no such thing as faith alone theology found in the Biblical NT.

"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)" Eph. 2:5
Can dead men repent or be baptized?

[alanmolstad]

"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)" Eph. 2:5
Can dead men repent or be baptized?

Yes, very true!

Remember its not Faith alone
Its not Works alone
Its not by any combination of Faith and Works alone.

But rather it is by Grace alone!

Grace alone though Faith that we are saved...




http://biblehub.com/ephesians/2-8.htm

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Hi Disciple. I did not state we can't obey God in order to receive of His salvational grace--I defined salvational grace as something that God does for us that we can't do for ourselves.

I posted Acts2:38 as an example:

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I made the point this is an example of God extending His salvational grace to them that obey Him.

You do realize the obedience of repentance and water baptism is not the grace? It's what they received because of the obedience of repentance and water baptism--the remission of sins--that is God's salvational grace.

The Biblical NT has God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him. Repentance and water baptism is something we can do for ourselves--the remission of sins is not.

I agree--and those fruits are necessary for His grace unto life:

Matthew 7:19-20---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

But that is a connection between works and grace. The fact is--those who do not obey the gospel do not receive of God's grace:

Romans 2:5-11King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Disciple--there is no such thing as faith alone theology found in the Biblical NT.


"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)" Eph. 2:5
Can dead men repent or be baptized?

Of course they can--and that is what all were commanded to do--for God's grace of the remission of sins.

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

So--do you believe they were alive in Christ before the remission of sins? Before repentance?

[alanmolstad]

There is the justification by Works and the justification by Faith.

The person goes down into the water and receives baptism and we who see this can therefore understand that the person has fulfilled the requirement of a Christian to receive remission of sins.
That is WORKS!.

That also is what Walter Martin is talking about with his example of Abraham lifting the knife over his son.
People could see him raise the knife and understand that he is showing the WORKS of someone who is now justified by his works.

But God knows the heart.
God knew the heart of Abraham before Abraham walked up the mountain.
God knows the heart of the believer before he walks down into the water.
This is the justification by Faith.


before men we are justified by works
before God we are justified by Faith!.......Amen.

case-closed.

[disciple]

Of course they can--and that is what all were commanded to do--for God's grace of the remission of sins.

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

So--do you believe they were alive in Christ before the remission of sins? Before repentance?

Salvation is always the result of God’s love for us, not our love for him. It is his grace—not our efforts—that saves us.
"And when he desired to cross to Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him; and when he arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace" Acts 18:27
Romans 10:17 - Faith comes by hearing God's word.
Romans 1:16 - The gospel is God's power to save.
We will not obey God, in spirit and truth until we love Him. There are many who act the part of obedience but with hearts far from God. Lost men do not love or obey God, they cannot.

[dberrie2000]

Salvation is always the result of God’s love for us, not our love for him. It is his grace—not our efforts—that saves us.

And how are you relating that to the fact the scriptures have God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

1 Timothy 4:16----King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

John 14:15,21, 23-24---King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.


"And when he desired to cross to Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him; and when he arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace" Acts 18:27
Romans 10:17 - Faith comes by hearing God's word.
Romans 1:16 - The gospel is God's power to save.

We will not obey God, in spirit and truth until we love Him. There are many who act the part of obedience but with hearts far from God. Lost men do not love or obey God, they cannot.

And this is the beginning of the gospel--what is it about this you don't consider faith or belief in Christ?

Mark 1:1-5--King James Version (KJV)
1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

[disciple]

And how are you relating that to the fact the scriptures have God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

1 Timothy 4:16----King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

John 14:15,21, 23-24---King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.


In all of these verses you will note that the obeying and keeping is a result and proof of the love of God and belief of His word and doctrines. So do you believe that a man can love God and obey Him before salvation? Hearing the truth of the Gospel and believing is neither work or obedience it is conviction and grace.

[dberrie2000]

In all of these verses you will note that the obeying and keeping is a result and proof of the love of God and belief of His word and doctrines. So do you believe that a man can love God and obey Him before salvation? Hearing the truth of the Gospel and believing is neither work or obedience it is conviction and grace.

Hi Disciple:

Again--the scriptures have God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him:

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Did those of Acts2:38 love God before they repented and were baptized--or after?

I believe you are attempting to fit an instantaneous salvation into the Biblical text--it won't fit:

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

[disciple]

Hi Disciple:

Again--the scriptures have God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him:

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Did those of Acts2:38 love God before they repented and were baptized--or after?

I believe you are attempting to fit an instantaneous salvation into the Biblical text--it won't fit:

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Hello DB,

“He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful”
1 Cor 1:8-9

So yes, believers are to hold firm to their faith until the end. But this, to me, is a characteristic of a true faith because God keeps those that are truly His strong to the end God is faithful and Jesus will lose none of those that the Father gives Him. We also need to remember that the writers of the New Testament knew that within the group of recipients of their letter would be non-Christians, and those that simply profess to be saved, amongst the truly born-again believers (like there is in any church). So their warnings to hold fast to the faith until the end is important.
A true child of God continues in the faith, not in order to hold on to his salvation, but as a fruit of the new life. It is not a work of merit, but an outworking of the life of Christ within him.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Hi Disciple:

Again--the scriptures have God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him:

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Did those of Acts2:38 love God before they repented and were baptized--or after?

I believe you are attempting to fit an instantaneous salvation into the Biblical text--it won't fit:

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.


Hello DB,

“He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful”
1 Cor 1:8-9

The scriptures state His fellowship is conditional upon our walk in the light:

1 John 1:7--King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Being "faithful" is obeying God.


So yes, believers are to hold firm to their faith until the end.

Not only to hold firm--but that salvation is conditional upon it:

Hebrews 3:14--King James Version (KJV)
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;


But this, to me, is a characteristic of a true faith

Is a "true faith" necessary for salvation?


because God keeps those that are truly His strong to the end God is faithful and Jesus will lose none of those that the Father gives Him. We also need to remember that the writers of the New Testament knew that within the group of recipients of their letter would be non-Christians, and those that simply profess to be saved, amongst the truly born-again believers (like there is in any church). So their warnings to hold fast to the faith until the end is important. A true child of God continues in the faith, not in order to hold on to his salvation,

Again--the scriptures state that enduring to the end is a condition of salvation:

1 Corinthians 15:2---King James Version (KJV)
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Hebrews 12:15---King James Version (KJV)
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

1 Peter 1:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

[disciple]

The scriptures state His fellowship is conditional upon our walk in the light:

1 John 1:7--King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Being "faithful" is obeying God.



Not only to hold firm--but that salvation is conditional upon it:

Hebrews 3:14--King James Version (KJV)
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;



Is a "true faith" necessary for salvation?



Again--the scriptures state that enduring to the end is a condition of salvation:

1 Corinthians 15:2---King James Version (KJV)
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Hebrews 12:15---King James Version (KJV)
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

1 Peter 1:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Hi DB,

First, I must say that I appreciate the discussion and that we can disagree without bitterness. But I guess we will never agree because we have different idea's of who Jesus is. He is Lord, Eternal God and Savior. It is He who saves us and keeps us for we cannot do it ourselves. Enduring is not a condition of salvation it is the result of salvation.
Jude 1:24-25
"Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling,
And to present you faultless
Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
To God our Savior,Who alone is wise,
Be glory and majesty,
Dominion and power,
Both now and forever.
Amen."

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostThe scriptures state His fellowship is conditional upon our walk in the light:

1 John 1:7--King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Being "faithful" is obeying God.

Not only to hold firm--but that salvation is conditional upon it:

Hebrews 3:14--King James Version (KJV)
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Is a "true faith" necessary for salvation?

Again--the scriptures state that enduring to the end is a condition of salvation:

1 Corinthians 15:2---King James Version (KJV)
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Hebrews 12:15---King James Version (KJV)
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

1 Peter 1:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.


Hi DB,

First, I must say that I appreciate the discussion and that we can disagree without bitterness.

Hi Disciple.

Thanks--I believe that is not only possible--but necessary, if the Spirit is maintained.


But I guess we will never agree because we have different idea's of who Jesus is. He is Lord, Eternal God and Savior.

IMO--I don't believe we differ on who God the Son is--but what the gospel of Jesus Christ is.

I'm convinced the faith alone have very little in common with the Biblical NT--and offer up a gospel the Biblical NT testifies against. I know that may sound stiff--but it is true.

And that is my point here in posting the scriptures--to show it defies faith alone theology--but is very friendly to LDS theology.


Enduring is not a condition of salvation it is the result of salvation.

Disciple--this is an example of what I am referring to--offering doctrines that come in direct conflict with the scriptures:

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

How do you reconcile that to your postulation?

[disciple]

Hi Disciple.

Thanks--I believe that is not only possible--but necessary, if the Spirit is maintained.



IMO--I don't believe we differ on who God the Son is--but what the gospel of Jesus Christ is.

I'm convinced the faith alone have very little in common with the Biblical NT--and offer up a gospel the Biblical NT testifies against. I know that may sound stiff--but it is true.

And that is my point here in posting the scriptures--to show it defies faith alone theology--but is very friendly to LDS theology.



Disciple--this is an example of what I am referring to--offering doctrines that come in direct conflict with the scriptures:

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

How do you reconcile that to your postulation?

How do we endure to the end? By our own power or will? Of course we can't. Those that endure are kept from stumbling (Jude 1:24-25), those that don't endure are exposed as those who were false. 1 John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us." Again does God need proof of our salvation by our endurance? No it is a witness that He who is in us is greater than he who is in the world. We do not have to strive to stay saved, don't you see that we could not stay saved by our own power? Our obedience and love for God is because of our salvation.

[dberrie2000]

How do we endure to the end? By our own power or will? Of course we can't. Those that endure are kept from stumbling (Jude 1:24-25), those that don't endure are exposed as those who were false.

But that only connects enduring to the end with salvation.


Philippians 2:12---King James Version (KJV)
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.


1 John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us." Again does God need proof of our salvation by our endurance? No it is a witness that He who is in us is greater than he who is in the world. We do not have to strive to stay saved, don't you see that we could not stay saved by our own power? Our obedience and love for God is because of our salvation.

The scriptures reverse that order:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Hebrews 10:36---King James Version (KJV)
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

[disciple]

But that only connects enduring to the end with salvation.


Philippians 2:12---King James Version (KJV)
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.



The scriptures reverse that order:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Hebrews 10:36---King James Version (KJV)
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

Hello DB,

Perhaps I am not understanding you, can you explain or define how one endures to the end? What shows in the life of one who endures to the end, works, righteousness, can one look at a person and say, "he is enduring"? Or is it something that only God really knows? Can I think I'm enduring yet be deceived and can I cause others to believe that I am enduring when I am not. I guess what I am asking is who decides who is "enduring" and who is not?

[Saxon]

Then why do the faith alone preach a gospel of salvation through faith without works? A dead faith saves?

In order to have a faith that functions there is a work function that is attached as an obligation for a functioning faith. That functioning faith, alone, brings salvation without works such as baptism.

A functioning faith operates as follows:
You are out in a wilderness and are at the point of starvation and death. Someone finds you and gets you into their home and puts you at a table with food and water that will keep you from death if you eat it. You could have faith that if you eat and drink what has been provided you will not die. If you fail to do the work of eating and drinking your faith is not functioning. Faith without works is dead.

Faith and the functioning work is what is needed for salvation. There is nothing that you do except believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. (See Acts 16:30 and 31) Believing is the functioning faith that God requires of you and he, by grace, saves you. (See Ephesians 2:8 and 9) Faith and a functioning work attached to that faith equals faith that is not dead. Dead faith nor works saves anyone.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

[dberrie2000]

Hello DB,

Perhaps I am not understanding you, can you explain or define how one endures to the end? What shows in the life of one who endures to the end, works, righteousness, can one look at a person and say, "he is enduring"? Or is it something that only God really knows? Can I think I'm enduring yet be deceived and can I cause others to believe that I am enduring when I am not. I guess what I am asking is who decides who is "enduring" and who is not?

Good morning Disciple.

I believe Jesus taught this doctrine:

John 14----King James Version (KJV)
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

John 15---King James Version (KJV)
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Disciple--there is a doctrine in the world today that preaches that one is saved independent of what they do--and it is the greatest lie satan has ever pawned upon mankind. As the scriptures state--all will be judged according to their works--and that for life or ****ation.

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

[dberrie2000]

In order to have a faith that functions there is a work function that is attached as an obligation for a functioning faith. That functioning faith, alone, brings salvation without works such as baptism.

One cannot be saved through dead faith:

James 2:26----King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

I know the faith alone preach one is saved through dead faith(faith alone)--but it is a false doctrine:

James 2:24----New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[Saxon]

One cannot be saved through dead faith:

James 2:26----King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

If you had read and remembered what it is that you read you would have noticed that I have already stated that fact. (Dead faith nor works saves anyone)

You have wasted your time arguing the basic statement that we both agree on. Your time would be better served by questioning what I have said about a functioning faith that has its own work that causes the faith to be a faith that is functioning and not dead. I think that you have a problem with that idea but have not questioned it.




I know the faith alone preach one is saved through dead faith(faith alone)--but it is a false doctrine:

James 2:24----New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Unfortunately for you, you know no such thing, you have made an ***umption based on bad information and not reading what the Bible is clearly stating. You are looking at a few verses that by themselves can support your opinion but you either fail to pay attention to verses that contradict your opinion or you just simply ignore them.

Please explain to me how your opinion can be correct, works is required for salvation when Ephesians 2:8 and 9 most clearly and definitely say the exact opposite of what you are saying.

Alanmolstad posted a video featuring Walter Martian that explains clearly justification by works. The extra biblical books that the LDS use all contradict the Bible so you are doomed to confusion until you realize that the Bible is the only book that is God’s word without contradiction if taken in the context as it is written.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

[dberrie2000]

If you had read and remembered what it is that you read you would have noticed that I have already stated that fact. (Dead faith nor works saves anyone)

You have wasted your time arguing the basic statement that we both agree on. Your time would be better served by questioning what I have said about a functioning faith that has its own work that causes the faith to be a faith that is functioning and not dead. I think that you have a problem with that idea but have not questioned it.

Hi Saxon.

The idea is that God extends His salvational grace to them that obey Him--verses the theology of the faith alone that preaches a salvation through a faith without works(dead faith).

There is no works in the faith the faith alone believe they are saved through.


dberrie----I know the faith alone preach one is saved through dead faith(faith alone)--but it is a false doctrine:

James 2:24----New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


Unfortunately for you, you know no such thing, you have made an ***umption based on bad information and not reading what the Bible is clearly stating.

Two points here:

1) It's not an ***umption--the faith alone preach a theology of salvation through a faith without works. That is why it is called sola fide:

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also historically known as the doctrine of justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity, and some in the Restoration Movement.

The doctrine of sola fide or "by faith alone" ***erts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith, conceived as excluding all "works," alone."

If you disagree--please list for us what works you believe is added to faith in salvation, in the faith alone theology.

2) The faith alone have precious little in common with the Bible--an appeal to it will only produce a defiance to faith alone theology:

1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

[dberrie2000]

Please explain to me how your opinion can be correct, works is required for salvation when Ephesians 2:8 and 9 most clearly and definitely say the exact opposite of what you are saying.

Ephesians states we are not saved by works. That in no way denies God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him--and do His works:

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.


The extra biblical books that the LDS use all contradict the Bible so you are doomed to confusion until you realize that the Bible is the only book that is God’s word without contradiction if taken in the context as it is written.

You should be given an opportunity to back up that claim. What do you find in the Book of Mormon that contradicts the Bible?

[Saxon]

Ephesians states we are not saved by works. That in no way denies God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him--and do His works:

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Ephesians does state that we are not saved by works as you have just confirmed. Now that you have stated the obvious, how can you still claim that we are saved by works? Ephesians 2:10 seals the fact that we are not saved by works by telling us that the saved are created in Christ Jesus unto good works. We are not saved by works but we are saved to do good works. You have it all backwards.

Romans 8:9 tells us if we do not have the Holy Spirit we are none of his. Only the saved have the Holy Spirit (See Romans 8:9). We are saved by grace through faith. By having faith in Christ we have obeyed him. Acts 16:30 and 31 tells us what we must do to be saved. It is simply believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. By believing we have obeyed and exercised faith through which we are saved. (See Ephesians 2:8 and 9)

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.




You should be given an opportunity to back up that claim. What do you find in the Book of Mormon that contradicts the Bible?

I have read the Book of Mormon and have rejected it because it contradicts the Bible. I am sorry that I didn’t keep it not thinking that I would need to argue it. I am sure that there are others that are currently posting that may be able to quote book chapter and verse.

I do know that every Mormon male hopes to become a God but that won’t happen because there is only one God and he does not know any others because there is none. (See Isaiah 44:8) That false teaching contradicts the Bible and there is no light in those that teach false teachings. (See Isaiah 8:20)

Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

[Saxon]

Hi Saxon.

The idea is that God extends His salvational grace to them that obey Him--verses the theology of the faith alone that preaches a salvation through a faith without works(dead faith).

There is no works in the faith the faith alone believe they are saved through.

That is your idea, not the Bible’s idea. If a person has faith and does nothing about it then yes, it is a dead faith. Faith requires a work, just as the person sitting at the table with faith that if he eats he will live. If there is no works with the faith that person will die. The work required in this case is to eat the food and drink the water that has been presented. You can have faith in the food and water all you want but if you don’t eat and drink, you die. A person must do what they have faith in or the faith that is claimed is dead.

Salvation is a point in life. There is a before salvation and there is an after salvation. Faith does not save you. Works do not save you. God by his grace saves you. You do not work for grace because grace is a gift. Gifts are free. Salvation is free, not of works. Works are rewarded with payment, not gifts.

A none believer will not obey God because to him that believes not it is foolishness. You don’t obey what you consider foolish and either do I. God gives the Holy Spirit to those that believe. Believing is what God requires of us. So if you believe then you have obeyed God and by grace he saves you. Faith does not save you. Believing does not save you. Works do not save you. God saves you by grace.




Two points here:

1) It's not an ***umption--the faith alone preach a theology of salvation through a faith without works. That is why it is called sola fide:

It is a total ***umption. You need to describe the works that save you. Keep in mind Ephesians 2:8 and 9. You don’t preach faith alone and you make no effort to connect with the Bible when you are shown that what you are claiming it says is not what it says. With Ephesians 2:8 and 9 it is totally impossible to be saved by any kind of works.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast


From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also historically known as the doctrine of justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity, and some in the Restoration Movement.

The doctrine of sola fide or "by faith alone" ***erts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith, conceived as excluding all "works," alone."

If you disagree--please list for us what works you believe is added to faith in salvation, in the faith alone theology.

2) The faith alone have precious little in common with the Bible--an appeal to it will only produce a defiance to faith alone theology:

1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

The functioning faith that I have previously explained is still my answer. That is faith in the context of faith alone.

You need to list the works that you feel are the works that save then I can continue to present my case.

[dberrie2000]

Ephesians states we are not saved by works. That in no way denies God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him--and do His works:

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

You should be given an opportunity to back up that claim. What do you find in the Book of Mormon that contradicts the Bible?


Ephesians does state that we are not saved by works as you have just confirmed. Now that you have stated the obvious, how can you still claim that we are saved by works?

Hi Saxon.

Cite, please. Could you please give us a cite where I have claimed one is saved by works? My claim remains the same--one is saved by God's grace--and that grace goes to them that obey Him:

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


Ephesians 2:10 seals the fact that we are not saved by works by telling us that the saved are created in Christ Jesus unto good works.

The scriptures state we are saved by God's grace--not faith, works, obedience, trust, belief, endurance--but by God's grace. And that grace goes to them that obey Him:

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city


We are not saved by works but we are saved to do good works. You have it all backwards.

What is backwards is the belief we are saved through a faith without works.

The scriptures are plain--God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him:

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Could you give us an example of God giving His salvational grace--as a personal reception of eternal life--to the disobedient?

Romans 2:5-11King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Galatians 6:7-9King James Version (KJV)
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.


Could you explain for us what you consider "backwards" about that?


Romans 8:9 tells us if we do not have the Holy Spirit we are none of his.

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

And???


Only the saved have the Holy Spirit (See Romans 8:9). We are saved by grace through faith.

The faith alone preach that's a dead faith--a faith without works--that saves:

James 2:26----King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[dberrie2000]

Hi Saxon.

The idea is that God extends His salvational grace to them that obey Him--verses the theology of the faith alone that preaches a salvation through a faith without works(dead faith).

There is no works in the faith the faith alone believe they are saved through.
Two points here:

1) It's not an ***umption--the faith alone preach a theology of salvation through a faith without works. That is why it is called sola fide:

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also historically known as the doctrine of justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity, and some in the Restoration Movement.

The doctrine of sola fide or "by faith alone" ***erts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith, conceived as excluding all "works," alone."

If you disagree--please list for us what works you believe is added to faith in salvation, in the faith alone theology.

2) The faith alone have precious little in common with the Bible--an appeal to it will only produce a defiance to faith alone theology:

1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.


That is your idea, not the Bible’s idea. If a person has faith and does nothing about it then yes, it is a dead faith. Faith requires a work, just as the person sitting at the table with faith that if he eats he will live.

But that only connects works and faith together in salvation.

Again--could you collate that with the faith alone theology--where one is saved through a faith without works?


If there is no works with the faith that person will die.

That is a hard connect between works and salvation.


The work required in this case is to eat the food and drink the water that has been presented.

Would this be an example of that--where God extends His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

Acts 2:38King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Is it your theology they were saved prior to the remission of sins?


You can have faith in the food and water all you want but if you don’t eat and drink, you die. A person must do what they have faith in or the faith that is claimed is dead.

Again--that is Biblical and LDS theology--not faith alone theology. The faith alone claim a salvation independent of any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ. That is why they claim a "sola fide" theology--one is saved through a faith without works--faith alone.


Salvation is a point in life. There is a before salvation and there is an after salvation. Faith does not save you. Works do not save you. God by his grace saves you. You do not work for grace because grace is a gift. Gifts are free. Salvation is free, not of works. Works are rewarded with payment, not gifts.

So--are you claiming the Biblical record is in error?

Acts 5:32King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

[Saxon]

But that only connects works and faith together in salvation.

Again--could you collate that with the faith alone theology--where one is saved through a faith without works?

All that you have said in the quote above is true until you take Ephesians 2:8 to 10 into consideration. Grace is the stand alone that saves and that is God’s grace to mankind. God wants to save but will only save those that have faith in Christ. You can put in any conditions that you want as to what faith is but the only thing that counts is what God considers faith to be. When we get it right to his standards then by grace he saves us. God has kept it simple, “For by grace are ye saved through faith”. He also states that it is a gift, not of works. You can add all the works that you want but it is still a gift and not of works.

Ephesians 2:10 sets the works for after a person is saved, “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works”. The works are after you are saved not to get you saved.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.




That is a hard connect between works and salvation.

No, that is a hard connect of the living faith that God expects us to have in Christ.




Would this be an example of that--where God extends His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

Acts 2:38King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Is it your theology they were saved prior to the remission of sins?

Acts 10: 46 uses “for” where “because” could be used. Salvation comes before any works (See Ephesians 2:9) so this for is used in the same sense and can be stated because of the remission of sins. Baptism does not save anyone. Salvation is concurrent with the remission of sins.

The obedience to God comes from believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. (See Acts 16:30 and 31) No works to get saved but plenty of works after you are saved. (See Ephesians 2:8 to 10)

Acts 10: 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 10: 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Acts 10: 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.




Again--that is Biblical and LDS theology--not faith alone theology. The faith alone claim a salvation independent of any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ. That is why they claim a "sola fide" theology--one is saved through a faith without works--faith alone.

You have a warped concept of salvation. Of course there is obedience to Christ. (See John 3:16) Obedience is to believe in the Son of God, Christ Jesus.

The work component of faith that makes a living faith is imbedded in faith and is not outside faith. The human’s part of the salvation equation is faith alone, in Christ alone.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.




So--are you claiming the Biblical record is in error?

Acts 5:32King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

No. I am claiming that the Mormon record with all its extra-biblical books and ignorance of the Bible is in error.

[dberrie2000]

So--are you claiming the Biblical record is in error?

Acts 5:32King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.


No. I am claiming that the Mormon record with all its extra-biblical books and ignorance of the Bible is in error.

How does that somehow negate what the Biblical NT testifies to?

Acts 5:32King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

You realize Acts is found in the Bible?

Saxon--running to kick at the LDS won't solve your problem of the Biblical record testifying against you:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[Saxon]

Hi Saxon.

Cite, please. Could you please give us a cite where I have claimed one is saved by works? My claim remains the same--one is saved by God's grace--and that grace goes to them that obey Him:

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Every time that you deny that faith alone in Christ alone tells me that you believe that there is works involved with salvation. The bible is clear, not of works (See Ephesians 2:9)

Your Matthew quote doesn’t sound like salvation but they all missed it and are being cast into the fire.

Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.




The scriptures state we are saved by God's grace--not faith, works, obedience, trust, belief, endurance--but by God's grace. And that grace goes to them that obey Him:

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city

You are still strategically missing the whole quote. It says, “For by grace are ye saved through faith”. You seem to have the grace part down In Accordance With (IAW) your quote above. What you seem to miss is “through faith”. There are two parts to salvation, God’s and man’s. God loves us and wants to save us. All that God wants from man is to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. If we, through faith believe in Christ we have obeyed God and he, by his grace, saves us. After we are saved, created in Christ Jesus, we are to do the works that God has ordained that we should do. Salvation that is not of works comes first, then the works God has ordained that we should do comes after salvation.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.




What is backwards is the belief we are saved through a faith without works.

Is this not a claim that you believe in salvation by works?




The scriptures are plain--God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him:

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

See the answer to the second quote.




Could you give us an example of God giving His salvational grace--as a personal reception of eternal life--to the disobedient?

See the answer to the second quote.




Romans 2:5-11King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Galatians 6:7-9King James Version (KJV)
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.


Could you explain for us what you consider "backwards" about that?

Your out of context use of the scripture that you have quoted.




Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

And???

And??? And what? See the answer to the second quote.




The faith alone preach that's a dead faith--a faith without works--that saves:

James 2:26----King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Now I am supposed to ***ume that any time that faith is mentioned in the Bible that it is a dead faith?? That is only in you imagination.

[Saxon]

You are out of context with the whole Bible.

Salvation is free with no strings attached. Works come after salvation.

[dberrie2000]

Every time that you deny that faith alone in Christ alone
Hi Saxon:

There is but one mention of the phrase "faith alone" found in the whole Biblical NT:

James 2:24---King James Version (KJV)
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

That's it, Saxon. There is not another mention of "faith alone" found in the Bible.


tells me that you believe that there is works involved with salvation.

Obviously--there is works involved in salvation:

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

What is there about the testimony of Christ you don't believe? Christ testified all men will be judged according to works--AFTER DEATH--and that fopr life or ****ation.

Those who obey Christ--God extends His salvational grace to.

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.


The bible is clear, not of works (See Ephesians 2:9)

That is correct. Not of works, faith, belief, obedience, trust, endurance, etc--but God's grace. And that grace goes to those who obey Him:

Hebrews 5:9King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


Your Matthew quote doesn’t sound like salvation but they all missed it and are being cast into the fire.

If they missed it--this is the reason given:

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


[quote]You are still strategically missing the whole quote.It says, “For by grace are ye saved through faith”.

Not of faith, works, obedience, endurance, trust, etc. But by God's grace--which those who obey Him receive.

Acts 10:34-35---King James Version (KJV)
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

You aren't thinking the term "faith" used in Ephesians2 is a reference to dead faith--are you?

James 2:26----King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[dberrie2000]

How does that somehow negate what the Biblical NT testifies to?

Acts 5:32King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

And???


And??? And what?

And--if Acts5:32 is true--faith alone theology is false.


Now I am supposed to ***ume that any time that faith is mentioned in the Bible that it is a dead faith?? That is only in you imagination.

Obviously the faith alone do believe it is a reference to dead faith--they preach a salvation through a faith without works.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also historically known as the doctrine of justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity, and some in the Restoration Movement.

The doctrine of sola fide or "by faith alone" ***erts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith, conceived as excluding all "works," alone.

[Saxon]

Show me the work that needs to be done in order for God to save you by grace. This is about a sinner that is going to become saved, not about those that are saved. you don't seem to know the difference between before salvation and after salvation.

[Saxon]

I have answered all of this for you before, either on this thread or another. If you disagree with the answers, don't just ask the same questions over with different words, challenge the statements that you disagree with directly. I do not want to wast my time giving you the same answers that you do not satisfy your questions over and over.

[dberrie2000]

Show me the work that needs to be done in order for God to save you by grace. This is about a sinner that is going to become saved, not about those that are saved. you don't seem to know the difference between before salvation and after salvation.

Again--were they saved before or after the remission of sins?

Acts 2:38King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[dberrie2000]

I have answered all of this for you before, either on this thread or another. If you disagree with the answers, don't just ask the same questions over with different words, challenge the statements that you disagree with directly. I do not want to wast my time giving you the same answers that you do not satisfy your questions over and over.

Hi Saxon. I find this the typical approach whenever one is cornered by the scriptures. The scriptures have God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him--and that defies faith alone theology:

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Could you explain for us what is it about water baptism you don't consider a work--and what is there about the remission of sins you don't consider God's salvational grace?

[Saxon]

Hi Saxon. I find this the typical approach whenever one is cornered by the scriptures. The scriptures have God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him--and that defies faith alone theology:

I am not cornered by scripture. What I find to be the biggest hindrance is your blatant lack of knowledge of the Bible. The Bible has never been the strong suit of Mormons as you waste time studying everything but the Bible. The most I have seen Mormons use the Bible is when thy try to discredit Christian doctrine with Mormon tales.

John 6:29 says that the work of God is that you believe on Jesus Christ. When you do this work of God you have obeyed him and the faith that you display in Christ is the faith through which the grace of God saves. No works required; just faith.

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.


Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Could you explain for us what is it about water baptism you don't consider a work--and what is there about the remission of sins you don't consider God's salvational grace?

Salvation is the remission of sins. What must I do to be saved? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. (See John 6:29 and Acts 16:30 and 31)

Baptism is a work that you feel is a need in order to be saved. Baptism is for those that believe, the saved. (See Acts 8:36 to 38) When you say that baptism is needed you are in opposition to John 6:29 and Acts 16:30 and 31. And don’t forget Ephesians 2:8 and 9 that flat out says that salvation is not of works. You can keep on repeating Acts 2:38 but it is to no avail until Ephesians 2:8 and 9 is ignored, which you are constantly doing. What part of “not of works” do you not understand???

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Acts 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

[Saxon]

Show me the work that needs to be done in order for God to save you by grace. This is about a sinner that is going to become saved, not about those that are saved. you don't seem to know the difference between before salvation and after salvation.

I have answered your question a number of times. Respond to my statement with out asking the same questions.

[Saxon]

The early church fathers were not the inspired writers of the Bible. They were wrong on the baptism for salvation. See the Bible.

[dberrie2000]

I am not cornered by scripture. What I find to be the biggest hindrance is your blatant lack of knowledge of the Bible. The Bible has never been the strong suit of Mormons as you waste time studying everything but the Bible. The most I have seen Mormons use the Bible is when thy try to discredit Christian doctrine with Mormon tales.

Hi Saxon.

What do you find in God giving His salvational grace to them that repent and are water baptized as a "Mormon tale"?

Saxon--when you state "Christianity"--are you referring to the man-made doctrines of the faith alone--or the real Christianity of the Biblical NT?


John 6:29 says that the work of God is that you believe on Jesus Christ. When you do this work of God you have obeyed him and the faith that you display in Christ is the faith through which the grace of God saves.

What don't you consider in repentance and water baptism, as being belief in Christ?

Obeying His commandments--as being faith in Christ?

Revelation 22:14----King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


No works required; just faith.

IOW--one is saved through dead faith?

James 2:26----King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Preaching a salvation without any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ is a dog that just ain't gonna hunt.


Salvation is the remission of sins.

Then salvational grace was granted to them that repented and were water baptized:

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

That defies the faith alone theology.

[dberrie2000]

Show me the work that needs to be done in order for God to save you by grace. This is about a sinner that is going to become saved, not about those that are saved. you don't seem to know the difference between before salvation and after salvation.

I have answered your question a number of times. Respond to my statement with out asking the same questions.

Again--were those of Acts2:38 saved previous to the remission of sins?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22:16King James Version (KJV)
16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

[Saxon]

NO, they repented and had their sins remitted then they were baptized in water because of their sins being already remitted.

[dberrie2000]

Again--were those of Acts2:38 saved previous to the remission of sins?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22:16King James Version (KJV)
16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.


NO, they repented and had their sins remitted then they were baptized in water because of their sins being already remitted.

Hi Saxon.

Altering the testimony of the Biblical writers amounts to little less than boundary maintenance. As I have often stated--the faith alone have little in common with the Biblical NT. What is it you are disagreeing with?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22:16King James Version (KJV)
16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

[Saxon]

Our basic disagreement is you claim salvation ultimately requires works and state faith without works is dead. I claim that it is not of works lest any man should boast. That is our disagreement.

[Saxon]

Hi Saxon.

What do you find in God giving His salvational grace to them that repent and are water baptized as a "Mormon tale"?

The Bible says that salvation is by grace through faith. It is not by works. It is a Mormon tale because there is no Bible support that works are involved.




Saxon--when you state "Christianity"--are you referring to the man-made doctrines of the faith alone--or the real Christianity of the Biblical NT?

Real Christianity is faith alone in Christ alone. Your works salvation is in opposition to Ephesians 2:8 and 9.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.




What don't you consider in repentance and water baptism, as being belief in Christ?

Obeying His commandments--as being faith in Christ?

Revelation 22:14----King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Repentance comes after believing. Who would repent if they didn’t believe? Would a none believer get baptized? This is all done after a person believes. A none believer would be silly to do it if they didn’t believe. As I have pointed out to you all that a person needs to do in order to be saved by the grace of God is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Again, only a believer would obey his commands. To the unbeliever it is foolishness and they will not do what they consider foolishness. (See 1 Corinthians 1:18 and 1 Corinthians 2:14)

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.




IOW--one is saved through dead faith?

James 2:26----King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

What is “IOW”?

Don’t be silly, we have been conversing long enough that you know that I do not believe that anything is accomplished through dead faith. Either you are trying to annoy me or you are truly displaying an ignorance that can easily be corrected if you are willing to focus on what I have been telling you I believe. You don’t have to agree but it is only good manners to pay attention.




Preaching a salvation without any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ is a dog that just ain't gonna hunt.

Preaching salvation is an act of obedience just as believing on the Lord Jesus Christ is an act of obedience. Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ is the act of obedience that God wants before he saves you by his grace.




Then salvational grace was granted to them that repented and were water baptized:

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

That defies the faith alone theology.

Grace was granted to them before they repented and were water baptized. Your ***ertion that one needs to do works in order to be saved defies Bible theology.

[alanmolstad]

Its a Mormon trick to get people to debate over Works Vs faith, and not over the fact that Mormons can have tons and tons of very good works and it would not matter a hoot........

All the works of the Mormon's count for zero,,,zipo..nothing....goose egg

Mormons have No works, so their Faith Is DEAD!

[dberrie2000]

Our basic disagreement is you claim salvation ultimately requires works and state faith without works is dead. I claim that it is not of works lest any man should boast. That is our disagreement.

The scriptures are plain as to God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him--and that faith without works is dead:

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Preaching a salvation through a faith without works(faith alone)-- is not Biblical--end of story.

[dberrie2000]

Hi Saxon. What do you find in God giving His salvational grace to them that repent and are water baptized as a "Mormon tale"?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


The Bible says that salvation is by grace through faith. It is not by works. It is a Mormon tale because there is no Bible support that works are involved.

My questions to you:

1) What do you consider about repentance and water baptism as not being faith in Christ?

2) What do you consider about water baptism as not being a work?

3) What do you consider about the remission of sins as not being the salvational grace of God?


Real Christianity is faith alone in Christ alone.

The only time the term "faith alone" is even found in the Bible is found here:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


Your works salvation is in opposition to Ephesians 2:8 and 9.

Two points here:

1) "Works salvation" is defined by the faith alone as any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ being necessary for salvation--correct?

2) Ephesians 2 is only in conflict to a "works salvation"--if one believes the term "faith" found in Ephesians2:8 is a reference to dead faith:

Ephesians 2:8---King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

[Saxon]

My questions to you:

1) What do you consider about repentance and water baptism as not being faith in Christ?

Repentance and water baptism requires faith in Christ. This is done after a person is saved, born again. There are three areas that you fail to understand. 1. Lost before salvation. 2. The point of salvation, being saved and 3. After being saved. Where do you do these works that you have mentioned, Repentance is concurrent with salvation and continues to occur after salvation. Water baptism happens after salvation. What unsaved person is going to get baptized with water?




2) What do you consider about water baptism as not being a work?

It is a work, but not to buy salvation as it is a gift.




3) What do you consider about the remission of sins as not being the salvational grace of God?

Tell me what you believe grace to be and then I will be able to answer your question.




The only time the term "faith alone" is even found in the Bible is found here:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Then let us say it this way, all man can do is respond to God’s offer of salvation is have faith in Christ. (See Acts 16:30 and 31)

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.




Two points here:

1) "Works salvation" is defined by the faith alone as any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ being necessary for salvation--correct?

That is correct, there are no works that man can do that is necessary for salvation.




2) Ephesians 2 is only in conflict to a "works salvation"--if one believes the term "faith" found in Ephesians2:8 is a reference to dead faith:

Ephesians 2:8---King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Why would Paul reference a dead faith for salvation? Your problem is that you have no idea what faith is.

Faith is like water. Water is H2O. Take away hydrogen and you have only oxygen. Take away oxygen and you have hydrogen. Faith is belief and a work. Take away belief and you have work. Take away work and you have belief.

The person sitting at table that has food and drink on it can believe that if he eats and drinks he will not starve to death. If the work of eating is not carried out he will die. Add the eating to believing and that is faith. Your faith with an extra work like baptism is not what faith is. The extra work that James is speaking of is there to show men the faith that the person has. You are not correct In Accordance With (IAW) the Bible thought.

[Saxon]

What is “salvational grace”? Is grace something that you can handle? Does God have a large jar of grace that he distributes from?

What if I told you that grace does not save?

I don’t think that you realize what grace is. End of story.

[dberrie2000]

Repentance and water baptism requires faith in Christ. This is done after a person is saved, born again.

Hi Saxon.

Then you believe one is saved prior to the remission of sins?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22:16--King James Version (KJV)
16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---2) What do you consider about water baptism as not being a work?


It is a work, but not to buy salvation as it is a gift.

Labeling water baptism a work, or the remission of sins a gift won't touch the faith alone problem. It only compounds the problem for the faith alone. That only confirms God gives His salvational gift of the remission of sins to those who do His work.


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---3) What do you consider about the remission of sins as not being the salvational grace of God?


Tell me what you believe grace to be and then I will be able to answer your question.

I believe the remission of sins is God's grace--something that God does for us that we can't do for ourselves. Again--the Biblical text has God giving His salvational grace of the remission of sins, to those who repent and are baptized:

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Then let us say it this way, all man can do is respond to God’s offer of salvation is have faith in Christ. (See Acts 16:30 and 31)

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

And was this integral to that belief?

Acts 16:33-34---King James Version (KJV)
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

[dberrie2000]

That is correct, there are no works that man can do that is necessary for salvation.

Then you believe one is saved through dead faith?

James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Matthew 7:19-21--King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


Why would Paul reference a dead faith for salvation?

He wouldn't. That is the faith alone claim--one is saved through dead faith.

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

[Saxon]

Define faith.

[Saxon]

No, I don't. The problem is that you do not understand biblical faith. Joseph smith's version of faith is nowhere near Bible faith.

[dberrie2000]

Then you believe one is saved through dead faith?

James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


No, I don't.

Then please list what acts of obedience you believe is necessary for God's grace unto salvation.

Hebrews 3:14King James Version (KJV)
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

[Saxon]

Then please list what acts of obedience you believe is necessary for God's grace unto salvation.

The only act of obedience that God is looking for in order that he will save you is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Paul and Silas were asked, “What must I do to be saved?” the answer was given, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved”. (See Acts 16:29 to 31)

That was the only answer that was given. There were no extra works involved. God saves us only because he is gracious towards man and the ones that he saves are the ones that respond to him in faith. (See Ephesians 2:8 and 9) God does the saving, not grace or faith.

Because Ephesians 2:9 says, “Not of works”, there can be no works that are required for salvation. Romans 5:15 also declares salvation a free gift. Gifts are not earned by works as that would nullify grace. (See Romans 11:6)

Acts 16:29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast

Romans 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.




Hebrews 3:14King James Version (KJV)
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

These verses are reminding the saved that they, as saved persons, must hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end and endure to the end. If a saved person does not remain steadfast and endure to the end they will not remain saved. I do not agree with Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS).

[dberrie2000]

The only act of obedience that God is looking for in order that he will save you is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

So--repentance and water baptism--and the remission of sins is not necessary?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[Saxon]

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. The rest is the result of being saved. You get saved first and then being in a right relationship with God repentance and water baptism and the remission of sins comes after. The lost do not repent. The lost do not get baptized. The lost do not have their sins remitted. that is only for the saved.

[dberrie2000]

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. The rest is the result of being saved. You get saved first and then being in a right relationship with God repentance and water baptism and the remission of sins comes after.

Hi Saxon.

So--one gets saved before repentance or the remission of sins? This is the direction the faith alone take--a denial of anything one does to obey God--or even God's grace, as being necessary for salvation--to promote the theology of faith alone.

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[Saxon]

Hi Saxon.

So--one gets saved before repentance or the remission of sins? This is the direction the faith alone take--a denial of anything one does to obey God--or even God's grace, as being necessary for salvation--to promote the theology of faith alone.

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

What is it that saves you? Not grace, not faith, not repentance, not remission of sins, not baptism, not communion. The only saving is done by God because he has an at***ude of grace towards man. All a person does is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, in faith and because God wants to save us, him and nothing else, saves us.

Everyone that is saved has obeyed God by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. That is the work of God that all must obey. (See John 6:29)

One has to be saved before one can be justified. Being justified in the sight of man is shown by good works. Being saved and justified in the sight of God is by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Salvation is not of works. What part of “not of works” do you not understand?????

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

[dberrie2000]

What is it that saves you? Not grace, not faith, not repentance, not remission of sins, not baptism, not communion. The only saving is done by God because he has an at***ude of grace towards man. All a person does is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, in faith and because God wants to save us, him and nothing else, saves us.

Everyone that is saved has obeyed God by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. That is the work of God that all must obey. (See John 6:29)

Hi Saxon.

I suppose the testimony of the Savior counts for something?

Matthew 19:17-19--King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

[Saxon]

It is not his testimony that is worthless but your out of biblical context is what counts for nothing.

[dberrie2000]

Hi Saxon.

I suppose the testimony of the Savior counts for something?

Matthew 19:17-19--King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


It is not his testimony that is worthless but your out of biblical context is what counts for nothing.

What do you find as "out of context" about the testimony of the Savior?

Matthew 19:17-19--King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Saxon--just a note here. Your "out of context" claim is just the common --taint so!--response of the faith alone when they get thumped by the Biblical testimony that defies their theology.

Your accusation is nothing less than another baseless, blanket, straw man argument--that is not backed by anything but a taint so! denial.

Taint so! arguments are neither convincing nor compelling, IMO.

[Saxon]

It is you that is out of context . Matthew 19:17-19 is still under the law, not grace.

[Saxon]

If you do not present it as the author intended you are using it out of context.

[dberrie2000]

It is you that is out of context . Matthew 19:17-19 is still under the law, not grace.

Not true--no one will ever enter into eternal life without God's grace--not then--not ever:

Matthew 19:17-19--King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

[dberrie2000]

If you do not present it as the author intended you are using it out of context.

Another empty statement. Again--what do you find as "out of context" about the Savior's testimony?

Matthew 19:17-19--King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

[Saxon]

It is you that is out of context . Matthew 19:17-19 is still under the law, not grace.

[Saxon]

That is true, but the way you teach it contrary to the way the Bible teaches it, no one that listens to you will ever enter into eternal life, not ever

[dberrie2000]

It is you that is out of context . Matthew 19:17-19 is still under the law, not grace.

Could you explain for us when, or how--- anyone could enter into eternal life without God's grace?

Matthew 19:17-19--King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

[dberrie2000]

That is true, but the way you teach it contrary to the way the Bible teaches it, no one that listens to you will ever enter into eternal life, not ever

Another straw man, taint so!! response. How does that annul what the Savior testified to?

Matthew 19:17-19--King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

[Saxon]

Your statement is not in biblical context so it is wrong. Do you know what it is to be in or out of context???

[Saxon]

You can't.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon View Post That is true, but the way you teach it contrary to the way the Bible teaches it, no one that listens to you will ever enter into eternal life, not ever


Another straw man, taint so!! response. How does that annul what the Savior testified to?

Matthew 19:17-19--King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.


Your statement is not in biblical context so it is wrong. Do you know what it is to be in or out of context???

Another straw man argument. What do you find in the Matthew scriptures above as "not in biblical context"? "Out of context"?

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

[Saxon]

Another question that you can't answer.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon View PostYour statement is not in biblical context so it is wrong. Do you know what it is to be in or out of context???


Another straw man argument. What do you find in the Matthew scriptures above as "not in biblical context"? "Out of context"?

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


Another question that you can't answer.

Hi Saxon.

There is no answer for taint so!!! responses. I have asked you to explain what you believe is out of context about the scriptures I have posted--and usually receive another straw man, taint so!! response.

The fact is--the faith alone just can't answer to the Biblical testimony.

1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

[Saxon]

I have answered all you questions. The problem is that you do not agree with me. Asking the same thing over and over again is not going to change my answer. I also have been asking the same question of you over and over again, but you do not answer it. What part of "not of works", do you not understand??


Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

[dberrie2000]

I have answered all you questions. The problem is that you do not agree with me. Asking the same thing over and over again is not going to change my answer. I also have been asking the same question of you over and over again, but you do not answer it. What part of "not of works", do you not understand??

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Hi Saxon.

No one is claiming it is of works. IMO--that is what the faith alone need to face--the Biblical scriptures state salvation is by God's grace--which God gives to them that obey Him:

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

You still have not explained what you believe is "out of context" about the scriptures that have been posted:

Matthew 19:17-19--King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

If those scriptures are true--then faith alone theology is false.

[Saxon]

Does God hand out grace on a platter? Tell me what you believe grace is when stated as "the grace of God".

[dberrie2000]

Hi Saxon.

No one is claiming it is of works. IMO--that is what the faith alone need to face--the Biblical scriptures state salvation is by God's grace--which God gives to them that obey Him:

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

You still have not explained what you believe is "out of context" about the scriptures that have been posted:

Matthew 19:17-19--King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

If those scriptures are true--then faith alone theology is false.


Does God hand out grace on a platter?

That seems to be more of the faith alone theology, IE--salvation by grace through a faith without works.

The Biblical record testifies that only those who obey the gospel inherit God's grace unto eternal life:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


Tell me what you believe grace is when stated as "the grace of God".

I believe the remission of one's sins is an example of God's salvational grace:

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Ghost is an example of God's salvational grace:

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

I believe God's salvational grace is God doing something for us we can't do for ourselves--that allows us to enter into His presence after death. The scriptures testify it's those who obey God that receive of that grace:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

[Saxon]

See "The Apostasy" #84. I don't feel like repeating myself.

Why do you not answer questions? What do you believe grace is when stated as "the grace of God"?

[dberrie2000]

That seems to be more of the faith alone theology, IE--salvation by grace through a faith without works.

The Biblical record testifies that only those who obey the gospel inherit God's grace unto eternal life:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

I believe the remission of one's sins is an example of God's salvational grace:

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Ghost is an example of God's salvational grace:

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

I believe God's salvational grace is God doing something for us we can't do for ourselves--that allows us to enter into His presence after death. The scriptures testify it's those who obey God that receive of that grace:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


See "The Apostasy" #84. I don't feel like repeating myself.

Why do you not answer questions? What do you believe grace is when stated as "the grace of God"?

Hi Saxon.

Did you miss my above post?

I believe the remission of one's sins is an example of God's salvational grace:

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Ghost is an example of God's salvational grace:

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

I believe God's salvational grace is God doing something for us we can't do for ourselves--that allows us to enter into His presence after death. The scriptures testify it's those who obey God that receive of that grace:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;[/QUOTE]

[Saxon]

Hi Saxon.

Did you miss my above post?

No, I just wasn't going to repeat what I had just posted at "The Apostasy" post #84.




I believe the remission of one's sins is an example of God's salvational grace:

You should really explain what you believe grace to be because “salvational” grace mean nothing to me. I can put salvational (if there is such a term) and grace together and come up with something but the chances are it isn’t going to be what you intend it to be.




Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Ghost is an example of God's salvational grace:

Explain “salvational” grace.




Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

I believe God's salvational grace is God doing something for us we can't do for ourselves--that allows us to enter into His presence after death. The scriptures testify it's those who obey God that receive of that grace:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Salvational grace is not a Bible term. You need to explain it and where it comes from.

[dberrie2000]

Hi Saxon. Did you miss my above post?

I believe the remission of one's sins is an example of God's salvational grace:

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Ghost is an example of God's salvational grace:

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

I believe God's salvational grace is God doing something for us we can't do for ourselves--that allows us to enter into His presence after death. The scriptures testify it's those who obey God that receive of that grace:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


You should really explain what you believe grace to be because “salvational” grace mean nothing to me. I can put salvational (if there is such a term) and grace together and come up with something but the chances are it isn’t going to be what you intend it to be.

Salvational grace is not a Bible term. You need to explain it and where it comes from.

Hi Saxon.

I use the term "salvational grace" to mean a grace that is necessary for salvation to occur, IE--such as the forgiveness of sins.

I believe all of mankind receives God's grace in some form--such as good health, a talent, a beautiful sunset, etc. But I don't believe that brings eternal life.

So, I distinguish between a grace that can come to anyone, and a grace that is connected to eternal life, in "salvational grace".

The salvational grace of God comes to those who obey Him:

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

[Saxon]

Where is your authority to insert "salvational" before grace. There is no hint in scripture that grace is nothing but grace.

[disciple]

I like the way the NLT translates 1 Peter 1:2 " God the Father knew you and chose you long ago, and his Spirit has made you holy. As a result, you have obeyed him and have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ."
You can obey as a result of grace.

[Saxon]

That is it to a tee. 1611 or close to it can be clarified by a little up to date English!

[dberrie2000]

Hi Saxon.

I use the term "salvational grace" to mean a grace that is necessary for salvation to occur, IE--such as the forgiveness of sins.

I believe all of mankind receives God's grace in some form--such as good health, a talent, a beautiful sunset, etc. But I don't believe that brings eternal life.

So, I distinguish between a grace that can come to anyone, and a grace that is connected to eternal life, in "salvational grace".

The salvational grace of God comes to those who obey Him:

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.


Where is your authority to insert "salvational" before grace. There is no hint in scripture that grace is nothing but grace.

Was this grace?

1 John 2:2---King James Version (KJV)
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

If there is no distinction between grace--then all of mankind have His grace.

Saxon--your response does not even make sense. God blesses all of mankind with some form of His grace--if it's not just life itself. I believe it is a sin not to confess the Lord's Hand in all things that are good.

[Saxon]

Was this grace?

1 John 2:2---King James Version (KJV)
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

If there is no distinction between grace--then all of mankind have His grace.

Saxon--your response does not even make sense. God blesses all of mankind with some form of His grace--if it's not just life itself. I believe it is a sin not to confess the Lord's Hand in all things that are good.

I would say that the grace of God is an at***ude of grace that God has towards man. If grace is not grace then what is it? You seem to think that you know what grace is better than I do, so you explain what you believe the grace of God is. Feel free to be detailed about it.

[dberrie2000]

I would say that the grace of God is an at***ude of grace that God has towards man. If grace is not grace then what is it? You seem to think that you know what grace is better than I do, so you explain what you believe the grace of God is. Feel free to be detailed about it.

I already have posted a number of scriptures that exemplify the grace of God--and whenever I do--it seems to meet with a taint so!!! response.

So--let's start here:

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

What is it about the remission of sins you don't consider God's salvational grace?

[Saxon]

You use this verse in an out of context manner because you ignore Ephesians 2:8 and 9 that state salvation is by grace through faith and it is not of works. In the light of Ephesians 2:8 and 9 repenting and being baptized will not gain you salvation, it is totally impossible!

[dberrie2000]

I already have posted a number of scriptures that exemplify the grace of God--and whenever I do--it seems to meet with a taint so!!! response.

So--let's start here:

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

What is it about the remission of sins you don't consider God's salvational grace?


You use this verse in an out of context manner

Hi Saxon.

What do you consider out of context about Acts2:38--where God extends His salvational grace to them that obey Him?


because you ignore Ephesians 2:8 and 9 that state salvation is by grace through faith and it is not of works.

What do you find in Ephesians2:8 that denies God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him?


In the light of Ephesians 2:8 and 9 repenting and being baptized will not gain you salvation, it is totally impossible!

What does Ephesians2:8 present, that denies God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9--King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

[Saxon]

Hi Saxon.

What do you consider out of context about Acts2:38--where God extends His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

Your total inability to comprehend what you read is revolting. The answer to your question is in the post that you are responding to.
Because you ignore Ephesians 2:8 and 9 that state salvation is by grace through faith and it is not of works. In the light of Ephesians 2:8 and 9 repenting and being baptized will not gain you salvation, it is totally impossible!

To fail to understand this leads me to think that you have no concept of logic whatsoever. If it is stated that it is by grace through faith and NOT of works it is not possible that because of obedience salvation is received. The term “grace” does not allow that to happen. Grace is the opposite of works.


What do you find in Ephesians2:8 that denies God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

What does Ephesians2:8 present, that denies God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

Those that obey, God will save, but it is only because God has an at***ude of grace toward man that he saves anyone. Because you obey God does not put God under obligation to save anyone. We are obligated to obey God by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ because that is what God had decreed. The Bible states that salvation is a gift of God and Joseph Smith says salvation has to be earned by doing things to obligate God to save.




Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9--King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

The verses that you quote are good Bible verses but your use of them is totally out of context, they are not supporting a "by what you do" salvation.

[Phoenix]

Your total inability to comprehend what you read is revolting. ... you have no concept of logic whatsoever.....

Are all Nova Scotians as nice as you are?

[Saxon]

Are all Nova Scotians as nice as you are?

Most are nicer but there are some that are worse. Now if you are judging my niceness value by what you quoted, “Your total inability to comprehend what you read is revolting. ... you have no concept of logic whatsoever.....”, we should take a few things into perspective.

You have quoted me leaving out much of the text of what was in the full statement. This maneuver gives a false impression of what the total meaning of what I said. Would it not have been more correct to have also brought into the equation the fact that deberrie 2000 has not addressed anything that I have stated but asks a question that has absolutely nothing to do with my comment.

He has asked, “What do you consider out of context about Acts 2:38--where God extends His salvational grace to them that obey Him?” Acts 2:38 has nor dealings with “salvational grace” if Ephesians 2:8 and 9 is a true biblical statement.

I believe the Bible to be true and free of actual contradictions. This being the case, it is imposable for Acts 2:38 to be meaning that you have to repent and be baptized in order to have your sins remitted. Ephesians 2:8 and 9 makes it more that clear that salvation is by grace. Grace of God makes it a gift. A gift is free to the receiver and cannot be offered to anyone because they repented or were baptized because that would change what is clearly a gift into wages, something earned. (See Romans 11:6)

This has been explained to deberrie 2000 on many occasions. This is my response to all his statements that he has made from his own thoughts to Bible verses that he quotes that he uses to put forth the idea that a person has to do some sort of an act in order for God to save that person.

I do take the Christian Bible serious and I want to do what God would have me do and that includes shocking someone into the truth of the Bible. Now your statement above intimates that I am rude. I very well may be rude but the intention is honorable. If I am right on this matter that means that deberrie 2000 is wrong. When there are two people with points of view that are 180 degrees out of phase, someone is wrong.

When I have given this type of answer with the reference to Ephesians 2:8 and 9 I would expect a response to my answer, not more verses that would cause me to repeat the same answer. Would it not make more sense for deberrie 2000 to attempt to correct me about Ephesians 2:8 and 9 instead of ignoring it with more verses that would contradict Ephesians 2:8 and 9?

I have told him of my conclusions about his comprehension of what he reads and his understanding of logic to provoke him to challenge me about the meaning of Ephesians 2:8 and 9 instead of basically repeating the same basic question the requires the same answer. I am not really of the low degree on the nice scale as you may think.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

[dberrie2000]

Hi Saxon.

What do you consider out of context about Acts2:38--where God extends His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

What do you find in Ephesians2:8 that denies God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

What does Ephesians2:8 present, that denies God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9--King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


Your total inability to comprehend what you read is revolting.

This seems to be more of the pat answers the faith alone resort to whenever scriptures are posted that defy their theology.

It does nothing to answer the bell, nor to explain why the faith alone cannot comport their theology to the Biblical NT testimony of the NT writers.


Because you ignore Ephesians 2:8 and 9 that state salvation is by grace through faith and it is not of works. In the light of Ephesians 2:8 and 9 repenting and being baptized will not gain you salvation, it is totally impossible!

How does your taint so!! response somehow negate the fact the scriptures have God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

We have agreed that it's by God's grace we are saved. The question left to answer is--who does God extend this salvational grace to?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Saxon--that defies faith alone theology--and Ephesians2:8 can't save you from that dilemma.

[Saxon]

See my response to Phoenix. Feel free to comment on that as it is for you as well.


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Saxon--that defies faith alone theology--and Ephesians2:8 can't save you from that dilemma.

Explain why Ephesians 2:8 and 9 doesn't contradict you. I am truly interested in what you have to say.

[Phoenix]

Most are nicer but there are some that are worse.
Some of them might be worse, but can any of them be more dogmatically absolutist in their rhetoric?


Now if you are judging my niceness value by what you quoted, “Your total inability to comprehend what you read is revolting. ... you have no concept of logic whatsoever.....”, we should take a few things into perspective.
Okay, but the words I bolded make it hard to see where you took things into perspective. Sweeping generalizations suggest a lack of proper perspective, one might say.


You have quoted me leaving out much of the text of what was in the full statement. This maneuver gives a false impression of what the total meaning of what I said.
Not really. I just quoted the most insulting parts of your post, because they were the most insulting parts.


Would it not have been more correct to have also brought into the equation the fact that deberrie 2000 has not addressed anything that I have stated but asks a question that has absolutely nothing to do with my comment.
***uming that is an accurate summary of what he did or failed to do, it's not enough evidence to convict him of having a total inability to comprehend what he read, and that he has no concept of logic whatsoever.


He has asked, “What do you consider out of context about Acts 2:38--where God extends His salvational grace to them that obey Him?” Acts 2:38 has nor dealings with “salvational grace” if Ephesians 2:8 and 9 is a true biblical statement.
If the Bible is correct where it states that Jesus became the author of SALVATION to all who OBEY Him, (and I believe the Bible is correct about that), then the Bible does make a pretty solid connection between obeying Christ, and being saved. In fact, if you can show me one person who will inherit the kingdom of God, who did it WITHOUT obeying Christ, I will be extremely impressed.


I believe the Bible to be true and free of actual contradictions. This being the case, it is imposable for Acts 2:38 to be meaning that you have to repent and be baptized in order to have your sins remitted.
That seems like a false dichotomy where you're saying that the only 2 possibilities are either

1. The Bible doesn't teach that repentance and baptism are conditions for eternal life, or
2. The Bible does teach it, but does so because the Bible teaches false doctrines and contradicts itself.

I think there are other possibilities besides those two.


Ephesians 2:8 and 9 makes it more that clear that salvation is by grace. Grace of God makes it a gift. A gift is free to the receiver and cannot be offered to anyone because they repented or were baptized because that would change what is clearly a gift into wages, something earned. (See Romans 11:6)
This has been explained to deberrie 2000 on many occasions.

Other Bible verses make is clear that eternal life is conditioned upon obedience. If you obey Christ, and as a result escape eternal ****ation, that's not necessarily a case of being paid wages for doing work. If you end up in hell, that is the wages of choosing to sin.

Proverbs 10:16
The labor of the righteous leads to life, The wages of the wicked to sin.

“Blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord, And whose hope is the Lord." Jer. 17


Now your statement above intimates that I am rude.
Okay.


I very well may be rude but the intention is honorable.
What is honorable about telling someone “Your total inability to comprehend what you read is revolting" and "You have no concept of logic whatsoever” ??


If I am right on this matter that means that deberrie 2000 is wrong. When there are two people with points of view that are 180 degrees out of phase, someone is wrong.
So it's possible that YOU are the one who is wrong. If you are the one who is wrong, does it mean that you have a revolting, total inability to comprehend what you read? And that you have no concept of logic whatsoever ??

[Saxon]

If the Bible is correct where it states that Jesus became the author of SALVATION to all who OBEY Him, (and I believe the Bible is correct about that), then the Bible does make a pretty solid connection between obeying Christ, and being saved. In fact, if you can show me one person who will inherit the kingdom of God, who did it WITHOUT obeying Christ, I will be extremely impressed.

The point is that all who are saved are obedient to Christ, but was it their obedience that saved them or the grace of God?



That seems like a false dichotomy where you're saying that the only 2 possibilities are either

1. The Bible doesn't teach that repentance and baptism are conditions for eternal life, or
2. The Bible does teach it, but does so because the Bible teaches false doctrines and contradicts itself.

I think there are other possibilities besides those two.

I have not said that there are 2 possibilities. There is only one, The Bible doesn't teach that repentance and baptism are conditions for eternal life. I don’t see how you got the idea that I left room for 2. Please explain how you have come to that conclusion. What other possibilities do you think there are?




Other Bible verses make is clear that eternal life is conditioned upon obedience. If you obey Christ, and as a result escape eternal ****ation, that's not necessarily a case of being paid wages for doing work. If you end up in hell, that is the wages of choosing to sin.

Proverbs 10:16
The labor of the righteous leads to life, The wages of the wicked to sin.

“Blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord, And whose hope is the Lord." Jer. 17

I am not one that believes in Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS). I do believe that if a person is a Christian then they are obligated to live a life that reflects a Christian at***ude as best they can with God’s help. If a person is not being a Christian then that person has fallen from grace and is lost. In Proverbs 10:16, the righteous are saved and their labour will lead them to life after their physical death. This is an example of works after salvation.

I have never seen the unsaved trust in the Lord or who have hope in the Lord. Both these verses are describing those that are saved and are working good works because they are saved.




What is honorable about telling someone “Your total inability to comprehend what you read is revolting" and "You have no concept of logic whatsoever” ??

I am convinced that I am right about my beliefs concerning the Bible, just as you and deberrie2000 are convinced that you are right. I have hoped that the shock value would provoke him to challenge me on my stand concerning Ephesians 2:8 to 10. He does not, at this point, wish to engage. I feel that it is the key to the whole discussion but he says nothing about it and continues to ask similar questions that require the same answer. I am only interested in his eternal wellbeing. I would hope that you two are interested in mine as well. I am not here to win and argument or play a game, a soul’s eternal destiny is way too important for that. I may seem to be a bit on the unorthodox side of good manners but as they say, all is fair in love and war. This is war but I do not consider you as the enemy. Try to keep that in mind.




So it's possible that YOU are the one who is wrong. If you are the one who is wrong, does it mean that you have a revolting, total inability to comprehend what you read? And that you have no concept of logic whatsoever ??

If I am wrong; I totally agree with you. But, I think that I am right.

[dberrie2000]

This seems to be more of the pat answers the faith alone resort to whenever scriptures are posted that defy their theology.

It does nothing to answer the bell, nor to explain why the faith alone cannot comport their theology to the Biblical NT testimony of the NT writers.

How does your taint so!! response somehow negate the fact the scriptures have God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

We have agreed that it's by God's grace we are saved. The question left to answer is--who does God extend this salvational grace to?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Saxon--that defies faith alone theology--and Ephesians2:8 can't save you from that dilemma.


See my response to Phoenix. Feel free to comment on that as it is for you as well.

I have responded a number of times to the taint so!! responses:

1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.


Explain why Ephesians 2:8 and 9 doesn't contradict you. I am truly interested in what you have to say.

It's not me--but the scriptures that come into contradiction with the theology you espouse:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9--King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Ephesians2 in no way contradicts it's the obedient to Christ which the grace goes to. It states that salvation comes by grace--not of works. It does not deny that God gives His salvational grace to those who obey Him.

For example--do you feel this grace flows through a faith without works?

Ephesians 2:8-9---King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[Saxon]

I have responded a number of times to the taint so!! responses:

1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

You are the King of “taint so”. That is all you do is claim taint so but never explain the reasons it taint so. All you have done is quote 1 Timothy 4:16 to support your works salvation theory.

If you bothered to pay attention to the letters to Timothy you would recognize the context they are written in is that they are written to a saved man. The verse that you quoted is telling a saved man to take heed to the doctrine and continue in them. If he continues he will remain in Christ and in remaining in Christ he will save himself upon his physical death. You have not shown anything that states obedience saves, but rather obedience keeps you saved.

What you need to do to impress me is find a Bible verse or verses that show an unsaved person being told to do something to gain salvation. It is not anywhere in the Bible.




It's not me--but the scriptures that come into contradiction with the theology you espouse:

It’s not you? You are the one that is using Bible verses in a manner that is out of context with the rest of the Bible. The Bible as it is written is perfect, but when you make quotes and claim it says something that blatantly contradicts other verses that are painfully clear in what they say then, it is you.

When the Bible is so clear in saying that salvation is a gift and it is not of works and you take a verse out of the blue, without even bothering to check out the context and claim that is says that you need to do something then, it is you.




Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9--King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Hebrews and 2 Thessalonians were written to saved people. 2 Thessalonians is speaking of lost people that know not God. You are still responsible for miss using the Bible.




Ephesians2 in no way contradicts it's the obedient to Christ which the grace goes to. It states that salvation comes by grace--not of works. It does not deny that God gives His salvational grace to those who obey Him.

For example--do you feel this grace flows through a faith without works?

Ephesians 2:8-9---King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Ephesians 2 in major ways contradicts your idea that salvation needs to be gained by obeying, repenting or water baptism or anything else that you may dream up that you think will obligate God to save you.

You said that it states that salvation comes by grace--not of works, what does that mean? Does it somehow really mean that you have to do something (work) to gain salvation? I agree with you that it does not deny that God gives His grace to those who obey Him, but I DO NOT agree with you that it means that God gave his grace because they obey him.

I take it that you ***ume that the writers need to specify what kind of faith it is, be it a dead faith or a live faith each time faith is written into the text. The context is sufficient to tell you that it is not a dead faith. If you can’t see that you need to consider taking advanced lessons in reading. I do not say that to belittle you, just to let you know that the question you ask is not relevant when you consider the context of what you are asking about.

Check out the English definition of “grace”, “faith” and “gift” and then honestly tell me that salvation has to be worked for.

[Phoenix]

What you need to do to impress me is find a Bible verse or verses that show an unsaved person being told to do something to gain salvation.It is not anywhere in the Bible.

36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know ***uredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”

38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(Acts 2)

Peter told those people what they should do, and what would happen if they did it. It's in the Bible.

[Phoenix]

The point is that all who are saved are obedient to Christ, but was it their obedience that saved them or the grace of God?
If God saves those who choose to obey Him, obviously it was God who saved them, but if they hadn't chosen to obey God, He wouldn't have saved them. You could say "Well, then they saved themselves" but that's only indirectly true. If it hadn't been for God, their salvation would have been impossible. And if it hadn't been for their choice to obey Him, they wouldn't have been saved. So it's a simple, obvious truth: There is a clear cause-effect relationship between obeying God and being saved. No one who chooses ****ation gets saved, and no one who chooses salvation gets ****ed.


I have not said that there are 2 possibilities.
That seems to be what you implied.


There is only one, The Bible doesn't teach that repentance and baptism are conditions for eternal life. I don’t see how you got the idea that I left room for 2. Please explain how you have come to that conclusion.
You said:
"I believe the Bible to be true and free of actual contradictions. This being the case, it is imposable for Acts 2:38 to be meaning that you have to repent and be baptized in order to have your sins remitted."
The premise for your belief that it's impossible that the verse mentions conditions for the remission of sins, is this: Your belief that the Bible is true and free of actual contradictions.

So you seem to be saying that IF it IS possible that the verse mentions conditions for the remission of sins, then the only way that could be possible, would be if the Bible isn't true and free of actual contradictions.


What other possibilities do you think there are?
Here's one: Maybe the Bible is true and free of actual contradictions, but you misunderstood what it was saying, and jumped to the incorrect conclusion that it doesn't mention any conditions for having one's sins remitted.


I am not one that believes in Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS). I do believe that if a person is a Christian then they are obligated to live a life that reflects a Christian at***ude as best they can with God’s help. If a person is not being a Christian then that person has fallen from grace and is lost. In Proverbs 10:16, the righteous are saved and their labour will lead them to life after their physical death. This is an example of works after salvation.
Thanks for the additional info on what you believe.


I have never seen the unsaved trust in the Lord or who have hope in the Lord.
What about the thief on the cross?
He hoped that Jesus would have mercy on him, and Jesus ended up having mercy on him.


I am convinced that I am right about my beliefs concerning the Bible, just as you and deberrie2000 are convinced that you are right. I have hoped that the shock value would provoke him to challenge me on my stand concerning Ephesians 2:8 to 10. He does not, at this point, wish to engage.
"Shock value" does little good when it involves telling lies about the person. The person knows he isn't totally unable to comprehend what he reads, and he knows that he has SOME concept of logic. So when you say stuff about him that he knows to be false, you aren't winning him over to your way of thinking. You are just driving away any chance that you may have had, of being taken seriously.


I may seem to be a bit on the unorthodox side of good manners but as they say, all is fair in love and war.
But it's not true that any behavior, no matter how egregious, is justified when evangelizing the gospel. If the enemy is Satan, do you really want to sink to his level while at the same time claiming to be fighting for Christ?

Christ wouldn't agree, I am fairly sure.

[dberrie2000]

Ephesians 2 in major ways contradicts your idea that salvation needs to be gained by obeying....

If the necessity of obeying God for His grace unto life were my idea--you would be exonerated:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9--King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

[Phoenix]

Maybe Saxon needs some time to consider how to respond to his claims being refuted. Give him another day.

[alanmolstad]

I am not one that believes in Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS).


I tend to believe in that once a person is saved, you are saved forever, and thats it...case closed...

[alanmolstad]

its not faith alone...

Its not by works alone.

Its not by any mix of faith and works alone...




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M



its not faith alone...

Its not by works alone.

Its not by any mix of faith and works alone...

[Saxon]

36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know ***uredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”

38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(Acts 2)

Peter told those people what they should do, and what would happen if they did it. It's in the Bible.

Seeing that the Bible clearly states that salvation is a gift and it is by grace you are going to have a hard time convincing me that a person has to earn a gift that is by grace. It’s in the Bible

Hint: The English term, for, can and is, at times such as Acts 2:38, used to mean because. (See Acts 10:45 to 47)

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

[Saxon]

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 is written to the saved and it is speaking of those that are not saved. The saved have obeyed, but their obedience did not earn salvation. Salvation is a gift, free to the receiver. The saved are the only ones that obey God, the lost obviously don't.

[Saxon]

If God saves those who choose to obey Him, obviously it was God who saved them, but if they hadn't chosen to obey God, He wouldn't have saved them. You could say "Well, then they saved themselves" but that's only indirectly true. If it hadn't been for God, their salvation would have been impossible. And if it hadn't been for their choice to obey Him, they wouldn't have been saved. So it's a simple, obvious truth: There is a clear cause-effect relationship between obeying God and being saved. No one who chooses ****ation gets saved, and no one who chooses salvation gets ****ed.

Show me where it says to obey God to be saved. I have shown where it says to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved. It is believe and be saved, not obey and be save.

Your answer leads me to believe that you do not have any concept of grace, gift or faith.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.




You said:
"I believe the Bible to be true and free of actual contradictions. This being the case, it is imposable for Acts 2:38 to be meaning that you have to repent and be baptized in order to have your sins remitted."
The premise for your belief that it's impossible that the verse mentions conditions for the remission of sins, is this: Your belief that the Bible is true and free of actual contradictions.

So you seem to be saying that IF it IS possible that the verse mentions conditions for the remission of sins, then the only way that could be possible, would be if the Bible isn't true and free of actual contradictions.

Don’t be foolish, Acts 2:38 does not mention conditions for the remission of sins. It is saying what a person should do if their sins have been remitted. Go back to Ephesians 2:8 and 9 and try to see the fact that salvation is a gift from God. You cannot earn a gift or do works for something that is by grace.




Here's one: Maybe the Bible is true and free of actual contradictions, but you misunderstood what it was saying, and jumped to the incorrect conclusion that it doesn't mention any conditions for having one's sins remitted.

Now you have gone from one verse to the whole Bible not mentioning the one condition of salvation.

How is it possible to misunderstand Ephesians 2:8 and 9? Grace through faith, Gift of God, not of works??? How is it possible to misunderstand John 3:16? Whosoever believeth in him should not perish. Is that too hard a concept??? How is it possible to misunderstand Acts 16:30 and 31? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved. Is this some sort of a mystery that is too hard to understand???

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.




What about the thief on the cross?
He hoped that Jesus would have mercy on him, and Jesus ended up having mercy on him.

He had expressed a belief in Christ, then he was promised that he would be with Jesus. Get your facts straight.

[Saxon]

The case is not closed on your say so. The case is only closed on the Bible's say so. Show me where the Bible says that once you are saved you are always saved.

[Phoenix]

Show me where it says to obey God to be saved.
How many verses do you require before you will admit that such verses exist? This from a partial list of the Bible's stated conditions for eternal life/salvation:

1. Must know God and His Son to have eternal life. (John 17:3)
2. Must keep Christ's commandments (to know Him) and therefore you must keep His commandments in order to have eternal life. (1 John 2:3 Matthew 19:17 Heb. 5:9 Matthew 7:21,22)

You must obey the commandment to be baptized in order to have eternal life:

3. Must be born of water and spirit. (John 3:5) And note deberrie's citations showing that in early Christianity, "being born of water" meant water baptism for the remission of sins.


9. Must walk righteously and speak uprightly. (Isaiah 33:14-15)
10. Must turn from all sins, keep all God's statutes, do what is right. (Ezekiel 18:21-22)

12. Must hear Christ's voice and follow Him. John 10:27-28
13. Must seek honor, glory, immortality by patiently continuing in well doing. (Romans 2:7)

21. In order to be perfect, must keep most of the 10 commandments plus give to the poor and follow Jesus. Matthew 19:21

It's not those who only HEAR who will inherit eternal life--it's who both hear AND OBEY. Right there you lose the debate.

I have shown where it says to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved. It is believe and be saved, not obey and be save.
You are wrong. You are COMMANDED to believe, and you are COMMANDED to have faith in Christ. If you refuse to obey those commandments, you cannot and will not be saved. So even the act of believing is an act of obedience.


Your answer leads me to believe that you do not have any concept of grace, gift or faith.
Your words lead me to believe that you do not understand what the Bible teaches.


Don’t be foolish, Acts 2:38 does not mention conditions for the remission of sins. It is saying what a person should do if their sins have been remitted.
False. “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
Those people had not yet been saved. How many saved people do you know who haven't yet received the gift of the Holy Spirit? How many saved people do you know who haven't yet gotten their sins remitted? It's impossible.



Now you have gone from one verse to the whole Bible not mentioning the one condition of salvation.
I have given you plenty, now.


How is it possible to misunderstand Ephesians 2:8 and 9? Grace through faith, Gift of God, not of works???
You are evidence that it is possible. You are conflating the works of The Law (the Torah) with obeying Christ's commandments to His disciples. They are two vastly different things. Find me a NT verse where Jesus says "Obeying My Commandments is optional." Find me a verse where Jesus says "You don't have to obey My Commandments--you can reject them, and by so doing reject Me, and still get eternal life."

[dberrie2000]

I tend to believe in that once a person is saved, you are saved forever, and thats it...case closed...

That seems to be the position of the faith alone--but a position that is found wanting by the scriptures:

Hebrews 3:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

[dberrie2000]

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 is written to the saved and it is speaking of those that are not saved.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

And those who won't be saved are those who do not obey the gospel of Christ.

And this was the very beginning of the Gospel:

Mark 1:1-5---King James Version (KJV)
1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

[Saxon]

How many verses do you require before you will admit that such verses exist? This from a partial list of the Bible's stated conditions for eternal life/salvation:

All that is needed is one; let’s see what you have.


1. Must know God and His Son to have eternal life. (John 17:3)

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

This says nothing of obeying God to gain salvation. This is obviously after salvation. The saved know God and Christ, the lost do not know him. If they did then they would be saved.




2. Must keep Christ's commandments (to know Him) and therefore you must keep His commandments in order to have eternal life. (1 John 2:3 Matthew 19:17 Heb. 5:9 Matthew 7:21,22)

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

This says nothing of obeying God to gain salvation. This is obviously after salvation. 1John was written to Christians and is stating that the saved know him if the saved keep his commandments. You stay saved by being a Christian, stop being a Christian and you are lost.

Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

This is an event before Christ was crucified. Before Christ was crucified the people indicated their faith in Christ by visibly attempting to live out the law as best they could. This was not to get saved but to show the world or whoever was watching that they believed in the coming Christ and were therefor saved. If we are to believe that God is the same yesterday, today and forever then nothing has changed. Our works come after we believe and believing is the only condition for salvation.

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

The unsaved do not obey him, but the saved do obey him therefor he is the saviour of all that obey. Again, they obey because they are saved, not to get saved. Not of works.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

See all the works that were done by people, it didn’t save any of them.




You must obey the commandment to be baptized in order to have eternal life:

3. Must be born of water and spirit. (John 3:5) And note deberrie's citations showing that in early Christianity, "being born of water" meant water baptism for the remission of sins.

Being born AGAIN is the second birth. The first birth is the natural birth by the womb through water. The second birth is the birth of your spirit when old things p*** away and all thing become new.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Jesus names the two births in verse 6, born of the flesh (first) and born of the Spirit (second). The early commentators were not inspired and they ignored what the Bible clearly teaches, they were in error.




9. Must walk righteously and speak uprightly. (Isaiah 33:14-15)

Isaiah 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Isaiah 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;

Again, the lost do not obey God, only the saved will obey. Obedience is because you are saved, not to get saved. Not of works

[Saxon]

10. Must turn from all sins, keep all God's statutes, do what is right. (Ezekiel 18:21-22)

Ezekiel 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Ezekiel 18:22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

How will the wicked turn from his sins? Only faith in Christ can lead to salvation by God’s grace. It is still by grace through faith and not of works. It doesn’t change.




12. Must hear Christ's voice and follow Him. John 10:27-28

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

It is HIS sheep not those that are not his, in his fold.




13. Must seek honor, glory, immortality by patiently continuing in well doing. (Romans 2:7)

Romans 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Again this is a comparison between those that are saved that by continuance will not fall from grace but will find glory and honour and immortality, eternal life after their physical death. Read verses 8 and 9 to see what the unrighteous are to receive.




21. In order to be perfect, must keep most of the 10 commandments plus give to the poor and follow Jesus. Matthew 19:21

Matthew 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me

Again this is before Christ’s crucifixion and in order to be perfect you had to do ALL the law. No one could do it. Jesus is the only on that fulfilled the law in its entirety. Man’s salvation is not attained by works because the Bible says that it is a gift by grace through faith, not of works.




It's not those who only HEAR who will inherit eternal life--it's who both hear AND OBEY. Right there you lose the debate.

The only ones that do obey are those that are saved. There is no debate.




You are wrong. You are COMMANDED to believe, and you are COMMANDED to have faith in Christ. If you refuse to obey those commandments, you cannot and will not be saved. So even the act of believing is an act of obedience.

Well look at that. You are now coming around to what the Bible is saying. The next hurtle you need to get over is the fact that it is not your obedience that saved you. It is because God loves you and has declared, before the foundation of the world that he was going to save those that believe and have faith in Christ. God is not obligated to save anyone even if they have faith and believe in Christ. He saves those people because he has decided to do it. You can believe and have all the faith you want but it does no good because it is by the grace of God who had made up his mind long before man came on the scene. What is so hard about not of works???




Your words lead me to believe that you do not understand what the Bible teaches.

That is because you are not paying attention to what the whole Bible is saying and you are relying on you church to teach you. You are going to stand before the creator of all things created and you will be responsible for what you have believed. I prefer to believe what I see in the Bible over what someone tells me is right when I can see that they are saying something different from the Bible.



False. “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
Those people had not yet been saved. How many saved people do you know who haven't yet received the gift of the Holy Spirit? How many saved people do you know who haven't yet gotten their sins remitted? It's impossible.

Which gift of the Holy Spirit is Peter referring to? The indwelling or the coming upon? They had received the Holy Spirit indwelling long before the day of Pentecost. In Acts 2:38, they were saved already that is why the wanted to know what to do. With salvation you do not get all knowledge. They had the Holy Spirit indwelling them and the gift of the Holy Ghost that Peter was referring to was the promise of the father, (Acts 2:39) the coming upon for power to be effective witness of Christ. Also see Acts 1:4 and 5 to see what the promise of the Father is.

John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Acts 1:4 And, being ***embled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.




You are evidence that it is possible. You are conflating the works of The Law (the Torah) with obeying Christ's commandments to His disciples. They are two vastly different things. Find me a NT verse where Jesus says "Obeying My Commandments is optional." Find me a verse where Jesus says "You don't have to obey My Commandments--you can reject them, and by so doing reject Me, and still get eternal life."

That is a foolish request as obeying his commandments is not optional. Obeying his commandments is for the saved. The lost will not obey or they would be saved and then they would obey. It is still by grace through faith, a gift, not of works

[Saxon]

It is still not of works. None of the baptizing saved anyone. Baptism is for those that are believers, saved.

[disciple]

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 is written to the saved and it is speaking of those that are not saved. The saved have obeyed, but their obedience did not earn salvation. Salvation is a gift, free to the receiver. The saved are the only ones that obey God, the lost obviously don't.

I have to agree, read what Psalm 14:2-3 says,
"The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
They have all turned aside,
They have together become corrupt;
There is none who does good,
No, not one."

Hearts turned away from God will not obey Him.

[dberrie2000]

I have to agree, read what Psalm 14:2-3 says,
"The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
They have all turned aside,
They have together become corrupt;
There is none who does good,
No, not one."

Hearts turned away from God will not obey Him.

Hi Disciple. The question is not whether those whose hearts are turned away from God obey Him--but rather--does God extend His salvational grace to them that obey Him:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

That's what the faith alone refuse to engage--and for good reason: If that is true, IE--God extends His salvational grace to them that obey Him---then faith alone theology is false.

Care to engage the Biblical scriptures?

As to your quote--there is a reason that none did good:

Psalm 14:2-4---King James Version (KJV)
2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the Lord.

That brings us back to obedience.

[disciple]

Hi Disciple. The question is not whether those whose hearts are turned away from God obey Him--but rather--does God extend His salvational grace to them that obey Him:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

That's what the faith alone refuse to engage--and for good reason: If that is true, IE--God extends His salvational grace to them that obey Him---then faith alone theology is false.

Care to engage the Biblical scriptures?

As to your quote--there is a reason that none did good:

Psalm 14:2-4---King James Version (KJV)
2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the Lord.

That brings us back to obedience.

Hi DB,

I think you are missing my point. Of course followers of Jesus must be obedient, but Psalm 14 makes it clear that without mercy and grace all men are corrupt and do not seek God. Corrupt men who do not seek God will not first be obedient. It is acknowledging our need for a Savior and believing that Jesus is willing and able to save us that brings saving grace, which sets us free to obey and serve. The indwelling Holy Spirit is what makes us willing to do those good works that God has prepared for us beforehand. Obedience is not our idea nor our desire that's why we must be born again.

[dberrie2000]

Hi DB,

I think you are missing my point. Of course followers of Jesus must be obedient, but Psalm 14 makes it clear that without mercy and grace all men are corrupt and do not seek God. Corrupt men who do not seek God will not first be obedient. It is acknowledging our need for a Savior and believing that Jesus is willing and able to save us that brings saving grace, ...

Hi disciple.

Are these the ones who believed?

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

[disciple]

Hi disciple.

Are these the ones who believed?

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Those who are born again want to obey His commandments and are able to do so by the Holy Spirit. I guess I have to ask this question, do you believe unsaved men will obey God's commands? Now I'm not referring to the legal constraints placed on men by society, most people will obey the law because they fear the consequences. I'm talking about what Jesus said in John 14:15,"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments". An unsaved man does not love Jesus, the bible tells us the unsaved are enemies of God. "For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." Rom 5:10
Works do not reconcile enemies of God, only Jesus can.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Hi disciple.

Are these the ones who believed?

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


Those who are born again want to obey His commandments and are able to do so by the Holy Spirit.

Hi Disciple.

And there arises another problem for the faith alone:

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

[disciple]

Hi Disciple.

And there arises another problem for the faith alone:

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Hi DB,

What is the first instance of obedience to God a person displays? Is it faith or works?

[Phoenix]

I guess I have to ask this question, do you believe unsaved men will obey God's commands?
They will if they want to be saved. How else can a man be saved, besides obeying God? Do you know of any other way to be saved? Do you know a way to be saved WITHOUT obeying God?

Don't you know what goes on at Christian altar calls?
"If anyone here has a desire to be saved, I'm here to tell you that what you must do is profess, here and now, that you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, and that you want to follow Him! All who want to be saved, come forward and say the Sinner's Prayer, and you will be saved!"

How about the Athanasian Creed? Does it support your belief that no one is able to obey God's commandments until AFTER God has given him eternal life?

"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. ...This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved."

That sure doesn't sound like the twisted, "cart before horse" doctrine of "God saves you first, and then you can and will obey Him after"--which is a false doctrine. It should be obvious that it doesn't work that way.

[disciple]

They will if they want to be saved. How else can a man be saved, besides obeying God? Do you know of any other way to be saved? Do you know a way to be saved WITHOUT obeying God?

Don't you know what goes on at Christian altar calls?
"If anyone here has a desire to be saved, I'm here to tell you that what you must do is profess, here and now, that you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, and that you want to follow Him! All who want to be saved, come forward and say the Sinner's Prayer, and you will be saved!"

How about the Athanasian Creed? Does it support your belief that no one is able to obey God's commandments until AFTER God has given him eternal life?

"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. ...This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved."

That sure doesn't sound like the twisted, "cart before horse" doctrine of "God saves you first, and then you can and will obey Him after"--which is a false doctrine. It should be obvious that it doesn't work that way.

Tell me how you obey God with a sinful nature and a heart turned away from Him, without the help of the Holy Spirit.

[dberrie2000]

They will if they want to be saved. How else can a man be saved, besides obeying God? Do you know of any other way to be saved? Do you know a way to be saved WITHOUT obeying God?

Don't you know what goes on at Christian altar calls?
"If anyone here has a desire to be saved, I'm here to tell you that what you must do is profess, here and now, that you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, and that you want to follow Him! All who want to be saved, come forward and say the Sinner's Prayer, and you will be saved!"

How about the Athanasian Creed? Does it support your belief that no one is able to obey God's commandments until AFTER God has given him eternal life?

"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. ...This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved."

That sure doesn't sound like the twisted, "cart before horse" doctrine of "God saves you first, and then you can and will obey Him after"--which is a false doctrine. It should be obvious that it doesn't work that way.

An interesting note about the Athanasian Creed:


"At his coming all people will arise bodily
and give an accounting of their own deeds.
Those who have done good will enter eternal life,
and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith:
one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully."

[dberrie2000]

Hi DB,

What is the first instance of obedience to God a person displays? Is it faith or works?

Hi Disciple.

Considering the Bible teaches faith without works is dead--the sequence is rendered moot:

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[Saxon]

How about the Athanasian Creed? Does it support your belief that no one is able to obey God's commandments until AFTER God has given him eternal life?

"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. ...This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved."

What makes you think that the Athanasian Creed is to be used to determine what the Bible says? The statement that you have quoted is total nonsense when compared to the Bible.

It is making it so a person has to know everything before a person can get saved. This is not Bible teaching. Your argument is not even worthy of a response.

[Phoenix]

Tell me how you obey God with a sinful nature and a heart turned away from Him, without the help of the Holy Spirit.
Doesn't the Bible say that even the unbelievers, such as the heathens, can obey God to a certain extent?
Maybe the Holy Spirit influences them to a certain extent.
The flaw in your reasoning enters in when you ***ume that only saved people can obey God to any degree at all. You need to understand that it's possible for people who aren't yet saved, to obey God at least a little. You want the scenario to be:
Until God saves a person, it's impossible for that person to obey God at all, and it's impossible for that person to even want to be saved, and to start obeying Him as a result.

[disciple]

Doesn't the Bible say that even the unbelievers, such as the heathens, can obey God to a certain extent?
Maybe the Holy Spirit influences them to a certain extent.
The flaw in your reasoning enters in when you ***ume that only saved people can obey God to any degree at all. You need to understand that it's possible for people who aren't yet saved, to obey God at least a little. You want the scenario to be:
Until God saves a person, it's impossible for that person to obey God at all, and it's impossible for that person to even want to be saved, and to start obeying Him as a result.

Hello Phoenix,

I certainly see the point you are making but the criteria and means of salvation is chosen by God not you or I. God's standard is perfection, right? To say you obey God at least a little is like saying you only sin a little,(For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it), or to say a little truth is not a lie. The bible tells us that the Father draws us and the Holy Spirit convicts us and we are given grace to believe unto salvation, which part of that can we take credit for? Here are some familiar verses, “That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace. Who bring glad tidings of good things!” But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” Romans 10:9-17
OK then, now we know for sure that faith comes by hearing, what do works come by?

[alanmolstad]

as for that idea that unsaved men can search for god and find him......

I will post on that topic next...

[alanmolstad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVXMUDC_pw8&list=PL701D8A67651291FF


The important section starts at around 0:40 of the video where the unsaved are talked about as they seek god and truth on their own...

[Phoenix]

Hello Phoenix, I certainly see the point you are making but the criteria and means of salvation is chosen by God not you or I.
I agree: God chose the means and criteria to be this: If you wanna be saved, there are conditions. If salvation were unconditional, then all would be saved. We don't believe that all will be saved, so there must be conditions that some people don't meet because they don't want to be saved that badly.


God's standard is perfection, right?
Right, and all who want to be perfected in Christ, can be perfected in Christ. But it's not an instantaneous thing. Saying "Hallelujah, I believe in Christ as my Savior" won't make you instantly perfect. It's a lifelong process, and everyone who wants to become perfect has to start at the beginning and then stay on the path until they reach the end. At the end of the path is perfection, which results in eternal life.


To say you obey God at least a little is like saying you only sin a little,(For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it), or to say a little truth is not a lie.
It's better to obey some of God's commandments than to disobey all of them. A Christian once told me: You may not be able to become sinless today, but you can sin less today than you did yesterday.


OK then, now we know for sure that faith comes by hearing, what do works come by?
Obviously those who haven't yet heard of Christ, can't be punished for failing to have faith in Him. So faith in Christ becomes possible once people have heard His gospel. And then doing the good works of the gospel become possible once the person has heard the words of Christ. That's just basic logic that anyone should be able to understand.

But it would be a fallacy to say that the billions of people who died without knowing about Christ, died in complete and total rebellion against God. You don't need to know about Christ and His gospel in order to obey the commandment against murdering, stealing, lying, committing adultery, etc.

[dberrie2000]

What makes you think that the Athanasian Creed is to be used to determine what the Bible says?

Some of it was taken directly from the Biblical text:

Athanasian Creed

...."At his coming all people will arise bodily
and give an accounting of their own deeds.
Those who have done good will enter eternal life,
and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith:
one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully."

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

[alanmolstad]

I think that is why the Athanasian Creed never really caught on with everyone in the church....Only 'some" of it was supported by the Bible.

[dberrie2000]

I think that is why the Athanasian Creed never really caught on with everyone in the church....Only 'some" of it was supported by the Bible.

This was the part supported by the Bible:

Athanasian Creed
...."At his coming all people will arise bodily
and give an accounting of their own deeds.
Those who have done good will enter eternal life,
and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith:
one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully."


John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

And that is the very part that testifies against faith alone theology.

[Saxon]

Some of it was taken directly from the Biblical text:

And some comes from the ineffective imaginations of ignorant men that only got “some” right when it came directly from the biblical text. The rest is wishful thinking at best.




Athanasian Creed

...."At his coming all people will arise bodily
and give an accounting of their own deeds.
Those who have done good will enter eternal life,
and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith:
one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully."

This is a corrupt statement. Nowhere in the Bible does it state that salvation comes from believing the Athanasian Creed or any other creed. Paul and Silas clearly stated “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved”. (See Acts 16:30 and 31)

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.




John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

This is the resurrection of the saved and the lost. The saved are the ones that had done good by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and the lost are the ones that had done evil by rejecting the Lord Jesus Christ, the light. (See John 3:19) There is still no works that can be done to gain salvation.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

[dberrie2000]

This was the part supported by the Bible:

Athanasian Creed
...."At his coming all people will arise bodily
and give an accounting of their own deeds.
Those who have done good will enter eternal life,
and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith:
one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully."


John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

And that is the very part that testifies against faith alone theology.


And some comes from the ineffective imaginations of ignorant men that only got “some” right when it came directly from the biblical text. The rest is wishful thinking at best.

What do you consider "wishful thinking" about the testimony of the Savior?

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.


This is a corrupt statement. Nowhere in the Bible does it state that salvation comes from believing the Athanasian Creed or any other creed.

I agree--but how does that annul the testimony of the Savior--found both in the Athanasian Creed--and St John5:28-29?


Paul and Silas clearly stated “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved”. (See Acts 16:30 and 31)

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

And was this their belief?

Acts 16:32-34---King James Version (KJV)
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

Acts 10:34-35---King James Version (KJV)
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

[Saxon]

What do you consider "wishful thinking" about the testimony of the Savior?

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

If the testimony is contrary to the Bible it is false and not to be relied on. (See Isaiah 8:20)

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.




I agree--but how does that annul the testimony of the Savior--found both in the Athanasian Creed--and St John5:28-29?

You are taking John 5:28-29 out of context. You are trying to get John 5:29 to be contrary to Ephesians 2:8 and 9. That clearly state that salvation is by grace, a gift of God, and not of works. The Athanasian Creed is only quoting John and not trying to say that it means to work for salvation.

Those that have done good have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, and those that have done bad have rejected the Lord Jesus Christ. John 5:28-29 does in no way promote works to gain salvation.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.




And was this their belief?

(Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.)
Acts 16:32-34---King James Version (KJV)
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

Acts 10:34-35---King James Version (KJV)
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

It most definitely was their belief. Paul went on to write Ephesians 2:8 and 9, so he was not advocating that the people be baptized to gain salvation, but be baptized because they had salvation from the very second that they had believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, just as Paul and Silas had told them in reply to the question, What must I do to be saved?

I added verses 30 and 31 to your quoted scripture to maintain the flow. Notice that the word was preached before baptism. Before there was a baptism, the jailor cleaned Paul and Silas’ wounds, they were in no rush to be baptized because they were already saved because they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. They believed and were saved before they were baptized. There is no promotion of works to gain salvation.

[dberrie2000]

What do you consider "wishful thinking" about the testimony of the Savior?

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.


If the testimony is contrary to the Bible it is false and not to be relied on. (See Isaiah 8:20)

What do you consider to be false or contrary to the Bible--about Jesus' testimony?

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostWhat do you consider "wishful thinking" about the testimony of the Savior?

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.


You are taking John 5:28-29 out of context.

But that is just the usual claim of the faith alone, whenever scriptures are quoted that defy faith alone theology.

What is it about John5:28-29 you consider out of context?

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

[disciple]

But that is just the usual claim of the faith alone, whenever scriptures are quoted that defy faith alone theology.

What is it about John5:28-29 you consider out of context?

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Look at Acts 15:7-12 “And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

The Bible tells us that the gospel is to be believed. That's where it all begins. God acknowledges faith, not works, and gives the Holy Spirit and works follow.
What does it mean to believe? What is he saying? How do you become a Christian? How do you receive this good news? Simply by believing. The word, in the Greek, the verb is pisteuo, to believe, to have faith. The word simply means to be persuaded, to be convinced that something is true and to trust it. Faith is believing.

[Saxon]

What do you consider to be false or contrary to the Bible--about Jesus' testimony?

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

There is nothing false or contrary to the Bible about Jesus’ testimony. What is false and contrary to the Bible is your attempt to get saved by works when it is clearly by grace, through faith, a gift and not of works. (See Ephesians 2:8 and 9)

Those that have done good have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and those that have done evil have rejected the Lord Jesus Christ. If you are going to quote the Bible to say that it promotes works to gain salvation, you need to be aware of how salvation comes about.

Paul and Silas said to be saved you need to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. There is no mention of doing works to gain salvation. Paul or Silas should have corrected each other if what they said was not true. (See Acts 16:30 and 31) John 3:16, as simple and common as it is says that whosoever believeth in him should not perish. You need to tell me why you think these verses are not true.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

[Saxon]

But that is just the usual claim of the faith alone, whenever scriptures are quoted that defy faith alone theology.

Yours is the usual claim when the respondent does not know what he or she is talking about.


What is it about John5:28-29 you consider out of context?

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

You do not seem to understand what “out of context” means. John 5:28-29 is not out of context, it is the way you are trying to make it support needing works to gain salvation. Salvation is by grace through faith, a gift of God, not of works.

You should find out what Jesus is referring to before you make a statement using Matthew 16:27 to support the false notion that works are needed to gain salvation. There is no support for that in Matthew 16:27.

Paul and Silas said to be saved you need to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. There is no mention of doing works to gain salvation. Paul or Silas should have corrected each other if what they said was not true. (See Acts 16:30 and 31) John 3:16, as simple and common as it is says that whosoever believeth in him should not perish. You need to tell me why you think these verses are not true.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

[dberrie2000]

Look at Acts 15:7-12 “And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

The Bible tells us that the gospel is to be believed. That's where it all begins. God acknowledges faith, not works, and gives the Holy Spirit and works follow.

I believe the Bible presents a problem with that philosophy:

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

[dberrie2000]

What do you consider to be false or contrary to the Bible--about Jesus' testimony?

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.


There is nothing false or contrary to the Bible about Jesus’ testimony. What is false and contrary to the Bible is your attempt to get saved by works when it is clearly by grace, through faith, a gift and not of works. (See Ephesians 2:8 and 9)

What is your evidence God did not extend His saving grace to them that did good--and obeyed Him?

How does your rationalization somehow cover and cancel out the fact Chrisat testified that all will be judged in accordance with works--and that for His grace unto life--or ****ation?


Those that have done good have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ

Exactly--because obedience to Jesus Christ is an integral component to faith:

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Your approach has the sounding of this story:

John: Dave--my house is for sale.

Dave: How much?

John: 100k--but the roof needs repair.

Dave: Hold on--you stated you had a house for sale--you said nothing about a roof!


Saxon-- works(obedience to Christ) are an integral component to faith in Christ.

[dberrie2000]

Yours is the usual claim when the respondent does not know what he or she is talking about.

You do not seem to understand what “out of context” means. John 5:28-29 is not out of context, it is the way you are trying to make it support needing works to gain salvation.

John5:28-29 does not have anyone gaining salvation outside of those who obeyed Christ:

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.


Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

[disciple]

I believe the Bible presents a problem with that philosophy:

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

You are ignoring Acts 15:7-12 “And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

The obedience Acts 5:32 is talking about is hearing the word and believing, which the scripture says God acknowledges by giving the Holy Spirit. This is not some philosophy but scripture, one must have the Holy Spirit to understand and obey. Read 1 Cor. 2:14 in the Amplified version," But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated."

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by disciple View Post---Look at Acts 15:7-12 “And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

The Bible tells us that the gospel is to be believed. That's where it all begins. God acknowledges faith, not works, and gives the Holy Spirit and works follow.


I believe the Bible presents a problem with that philosophy:

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.


You are ignoring Acts 15:7-12 “And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

The obedience Acts 5:32 is talking about is hearing the word and believing, which the scripture says God acknowledges by giving the Holy Spirit.

Hi Disciple.

What is your evidence that obeying God is not an integral component to belief in God?

Acts 10:34-35---King James Version (KJV)
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.


Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

[Saxon]

What is your evidence God did not extend His saving grace to them that did good--and obeyed Him?

How does your rationalization somehow cover and cancel out the fact Chrisat testified that all will be judged in accordance with works--and that for His grace unto life--or ****ation?

Show me your scripture that you are referring to.

There is no evidence that Christ did not extend His saving grace to them that did well and obeyed him. You have pointed out this fact many times. My argument is not that it did not happen, but that you are trying to insinuate that this means that you need to do works, such as obey, repent be baptized in order to gain salvation. This is still contrary to Ephesians 2:8 to 10. If you were to actually believe Ephesians 2:8 to 10 you would not be so eager to do things to gain salvation. Salvation is a gift of God by grace through faith, NOT of works. Works are for the ones that are saved, in Christ Jesus.

We all, the saved and the lost, are going to be judged by our works. These judgements have nothing to do with determining a person’s eternal state, saved or lost as that has been determined before either the judgement of the saved or the lost takes place.

The judgement of the saved is described in 1 Corinthians 3:9 to 15. Pay close attention to 1 Corinthians 3:15, no works are involved with gaining salvation

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

1 Corinthians 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1 Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1 Corinthians 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

[Saxon]

But that is just the usual claim of the faith alone, whenever scriptures are quoted that defy faith alone theology.

What is it about John5:28-29 you consider out of context?

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

John 5:28-29 in the Bible is not out of context, you have used it out of context by trying to make it say that work is required to gain salvation. This is contrary to Ephesians 2:8 to 10. If you were to actually believe Ephesians 2:8 to 10 you would not be so eager to do things to gain salvation. Salvation is a gift of God by grace through faith, NOT of works. Works are for the ones that are saved, in Christ Jesus.

Your use of Matthew 16:27 is out of context for the same reason, you are trying to make it say that work is required to gain salvation, contrary to Ephesians 2:8 to 10.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

[Saxon]

Obeying Christ is believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. Just believe, no works required.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

[Phoenix]

Obeying Christ is believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. Just believe, no works required.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Don't the demons do that? Why aren't they saved? Is there something additional that they failed to do, and that's why they aren't saved? Something such as believe AND obey Christ?

[Saxon]

Don't the demons do that? Why aren't they saved? Is there something additional that they failed to do, and that's why they aren't saved? Something such as believe AND obey Christ?

Salvation is by grace through faith, not obedience or any other work. The demons do not have faith.

Ephesians 2:8 Forby grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

[Phoenix]

Salvation is by grace through faith, not obedience or any other work. The demons do not have faith.


But the demons BELIEVE--it says so right in the Bible. And one of you contra-LDS posters said that the ONLY, SOLE requirement for salvation is to believe. You didn't say "have faith." You said "believe."

So again? What keeps demons from being saved, if "believe" is the only requirement for salvation, and the demons believe, as the Bible says they do?

[Saxon]

But the demons BELIEVE--it says so right in the Bible. And one of you contra-LDS posters said that the ONLY, SOLE requirement for salvation is to believe. You didn't say "have faith." You said "believe."

So again? What keeps demons from being saved, if "believe" is the only requirement for salvation, and the demons believe, as the Bible says they do?

You seem to find it convenient to ignore what I have been posting over and over and over. See Ephesians 2:8 and 9.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

[Phoenix]

You seem to find it convenient to ignore what I have been posting over and over and over. See Ephesians 2:8 and 9.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

You seem to find it convenient to ignore the fact that the number of bible verses that teach salvation by faith alone, is exactly the same as the number of verses that teach salvation by works alone.

[alanmolstad]

salvation is not by faith


salvation is not by works


salvation is not by any combination of faith and works....





so what is salvation by?
Salvation is by grace alone though faith, not by works.

[theway]

salvation is not by faith


salvation is not by works


salvation is not by any combination of faith and works....



so what is salvation by?
Salvation is by grace alone though faith, not by works.That's not what Walter Martin believed....
He said salvation was by grace alone through faith ALONE...

What exactly that meant is anybodies guess as most of his little sayings contradicted something else he had already said.

[Phoenix]

Maybe salvation is by anti-Mormonism? :)

[alanmolstad]

Maybe salvation is by anti-Mormonism? :)

that might be true....

[dberrie2000]

Maybe salvation is by anti-Mormonism? :)

that might be true....

What isn't true is a salvation through a faith alone theology:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[dberrie2000]

Hi Saxon.

I believe the remission of one's sins is an example of God's salvational grace:

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Ghost is an example of God's salvational grace:

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

I believe God's salvational grace is God doing something for us we can't do for ourselves--that allows us to enter into His presence after death. The scriptures testify it's those who obey God that receive of that grace:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


You should really explain what you believe grace to be because “salvational” grace mean nothing to me.

But the remission of sins or the Holy Ghost does mean something to you?

Are you saying you don't believe either is ***ociated with salvation--or is an extension of God's grace?

[Apologette]

But the remission of sins or the Holy Ghost does mean something to you?

Are you saying you don't believe either is ***ociated with salvation--or is an extension of God's grace?

The problem is, dberrie, you believe that a pedophile, Joe Smith, brings salvation, and that without him nobody gets to become a god.

[Saxon]

where does the term, "salvational” grace come From, not the Bible.

[Apologette]

where does the term, "salvational” grace come From, not the Bible.

dberrie, I believe, made that term up. I don't even think the Mormon cult uses it.

[Saxon]

There is no place in the Bible that there is a type of grace ever mentioned. Some have said "saving" grace but that is not in the Bible either. Now "salvational" grace. People need to find out what the term grace means and then they wouldn't need to add onto grace what isn't add on-able.

[alanmolstad]

What isn't true is a salvation through a faith alone theology:
9
James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

There is a justification by faith and a justification by works

[dberrie2000]

The problem is, dberrie, you believe that a pedophile, Joe Smith, brings salvation, and that without him nobody gets to become a god.

I believe just what the Biblical record states:

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Ghost is an example of God's salvational grace:

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

I believe God's salvational grace is God doing something for us we can't do for ourselves--that allows us to enter into His presence after death. The scriptures testify it's those who obey God that receive of that grace:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Why don't you?

[dberrie2000]

There is a justification by faith and a justification by works

But there is no justification through faith alone:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Why do the faith alone preach a gospel of salvation through a faith that is alone?

[dberrie2000]

There is no place in the Bible that there is a type of grace ever mentioned.

Then you don't believe the remission of sins, the Holy Ghost, or eternal salvation-- is God's grace?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

[alanmolstad]

But there is no justification through faith alone:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Why do the faith alone preach a gospel of salvation through a faith that is alone?
there are two types of justification talked about in the bible....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M
one by faith
one by works.

so if someone were to tell me that there was only one type of justification in the bible.....(Faith alone or works alone, does not matter), I would say that they were in error.

[alanmolstad]

so in other words, if someone were to tell me, "Hey there is a justification by faith only" I would correct them and say, "No there is a justification by works as well"

or if someone were to say, "Hey there is only a Justification by works" I would correct them and say, "No there is also a justification by FAITH as well"

[dberrie2000]

There is a justification by faith and a justification by works


But there is no justification through faith alone:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Why do the faith alone preach a gospel of salvation through a faith that is alone?


there are two types of justification talked about in the bible....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M
one by faith
one by works.

so if someone were to tell me that there was only one type of justification in the bible.....(Faith alone or works alone, does not matter), I would say that they were in error.

Again--there is no justification found in the Biblical text through a faith alone theology. Those of faith alone theology preach a salvation through faith alone. There is but one mention of "faith alone" (sola fide) found in the Biblical text:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[dberrie2000]

so in other words, if someone were to tell me, "Hey there is a justification by faith only" I would correct them and say, "No there is a justification by works as well"

And I would ask you--where does one find justification by "faith alone"?(sola fide)

[alanmolstad]

See post #191 above

[disciple]

And I would ask you--where does one find justification by "faith alone"?(sola fide)

“There was a certain creditor who had two debtors. One owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. And when they had nothing with which to repay, he freely forgave them both. Tell Me, therefore, which of them will love him more?”
Simon answered and said, “I suppose the one whom he forgave more.”
And He said to him, “You have rightly judged.” Then He turned to the woman and said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave Me no water for My feet, but she has washed My feet with her tears and wiped them with the hair of her head. You gave Me no kiss, but this woman has not ceased to kiss My feet since the time I came in. You did not anoint My head with oil, but this woman has anointed My feet with fragrant oil. Therefore I say to you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little.”
Then He said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”
And those who sat at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?”
Then He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you. Go in peace.”
Luke 7:41-50

So what would you say to this woman, be careful Jesus didn’t really mean what He said?
“Your faith has saved you”; meaning either the object of her faith, himself, who was the author of eternal salvation to her; or that she, through faith in him, had received the blessings of salvation, pardon, righteousness, and life from him. In either case she did nothing to merit that salvation. It is that faith and the leading of the Holy Spirit which will now produce work and obedience.

“We remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.”
1 Thes. 1:3

"For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love." Gal 5:5-6

[theway]

“There was a certain creditor who had two debtors. One owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. And when they had nothing with which to repay, he freely forgave them both. Tell Me, therefore, which of them will love him more?”
Simon answered and said, “I suppose the one whom he forgave more.”
And He said to him, “You have rightly judged.” Then He turned to the woman and said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave Me no water for My feet, but she has washed My feet with her tears and wiped them with the hair of her head. You gave Me no kiss, but this woman has not ceased to kiss My feet since the time I came in. You did not anoint My head with oil, but this woman has anointed My feet with fragrant oil. Therefore I say to you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little.”
Then He said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”
And those who sat at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?”u
Then He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you. Go in peace.”
Luke 7:41-50

So what would you say to this woman, be careful Jesus didn’t really mean what He said?
“Your faith has saved you”; meaning either the object of her faith, himself, who was the author of eternal salvation to her; or that she, through faith in him, had received the blessings of salvation, pardon, righteousness, and life from him. In either case she did nothing to merit that salvation. It is that faith and the leading of the Holy Spirit which will now produce work and obedience.

“We remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.”
1 Thes. 1:3

"For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love." Gal 5:5-6You completely missed the point of these verses. If you go back and read them you will see that one person's faith involved action, the other person's faith had none, in fact Christ even pointed out that Simon didn't even do the required minimum that would be expected from the faithless to do.
One person's sins were forgiven... Which one do you guess that was?

[disciple]

You completely missed the point of these verses. If you go back and read them you will see that one person's faith involved action, the other person's faith had none, in fact Christ even pointed out that Simon didn't even do the required minimum that would be expected from the faithless to do.
One person's sins were forgiven... Which one do you guess that was?

What action caused this women to be saved? Would the same action have saved Simon?

[theway]

What action caused this women to be saved? Would the same action have saved Simon?

Humility, repentance, and the act of seeking Him out.

Note that Christ did not say; "there's this sinful women in another village... Boom! I just forgave her."

However if you were looking for a true parable of how or by what criteria the Lord forgives, read Matt. 18:21-35

[Saxon]

Then you don't believe the remission of sins, the Holy Ghost, or eternal salvation-- is God's grace?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

No, I don’t believe that the remission of sins, the Holy Ghost, or eternal salvation IS God's grace. What I believe is that what you have pointed out as God’s grace are two aspects of eternal salvation, remission of sins and the Holy Ghost. Both are received at the moment God bestows eternal salvation upon a person.

The Bible says that it is by grace that you are saved, (See Ephesians 2:8) it never indicates that the remission of sins, the Holy Ghost, or eternal salvation ARE God's grace.

Give me a detailed post describing exactly what you believe God’s grace to be. I am sure that I will find it most enlightening.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

[disciple]

Humility, repentance, and the act of seeking Him out.




All based on faith and the belief that Jesus is willing and able to save.

[theway]

Humility; is more than just feeling bad about it.
Repentance; is more than just saying you are sorry
And seeking Him out is more than just believing He exists....

Every one of these requires direct action or "work" on a person's part.

Did you not read the parable I told you to read?

[dberrie2000]

Then you don't believe the remission of sins, the Holy Ghost, or eternal salvation-- is God's grace?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


No, I don’t believe that the remission of sins, the Holy Ghost, or eternal salvation IS God's grace.

That is the first instance I have ever heard someone who professes Christianity denying the remission of sins, or the Holy Ghost is God's grace to mankind. IMO--one cannot be Christian, and be in denial of that.

[dberrie2000]

“There was a certain creditor who had two debtors. One owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. And when they had nothing with which to repay, he freely forgave them both. Tell Me, therefore, which of them will love him more?”
Simon answered and said, “I suppose the one whom he forgave more.”
And He said to him, “You have rightly judged.” Then He turned to the woman and said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave Me no water for My feet, but she has washed My feet with her tears and wiped them with the hair of her head. You gave Me no kiss, but this woman has not ceased to kiss My feet since the time I came in. You did not anoint My head with oil, but this woman has anointed My feet with fragrant oil. Therefore I say to you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little.”
Then He said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”
And those who sat at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?”
Then He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you. Go in peace.” Luke7:41-50

Is that anything unlike this verse?

1 Peter 3:20-22---King James Version (KJV)
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

So--the question remains--is that reference to "faith" in Luke 7 a reference to dead faith--or a faith with works?

James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

[disciple]

Is that anything unlike this verse?

1 Peter 3:20-22---King James Version (KJV)
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

So--the question remains--is that reference to "faith" in Luke 7 a reference to dead faith--or a faith with works?

James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Hi DB,
No one disagrees with what James is saying, that faith without works is dead. It’s obvious that if one talks the talk but doesn’t walk the walk something is amiss. But works play no part in being born again, obedience and true works for God are the result of the indwelling Holy Spirit. Why do I say that? Because unsaved men are naturally enemies of God. They are very opposite to the commands of God. “Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.” Rom 8:7-8
Men have no desire to submit to God’s authority or do any work for Him, nor can they.

“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.” John 15:5

The work of lost men is not to please God or a step towards salvation.
“And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled.” Col 1:21

Our works do not give God reason to save us. We are justified and reconciled by His blood and death.
“Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.” Rom 5:9-10

Works are the result of salvation and must accompany real faith.

[Saxon]

No, I don’t believe that the remission of sins, the Holy Ghost, or eternal salvation IS God's grace. What I believe is that what you have pointed out as God’s grace are two aspects of eternal salvation, remission of sins and the Holy Ghost. Both are received at the moment God bestows eternal salvation upon a person.

The Bible says that it is by grace that you are saved, (See Ephesians 2:8) it never indicates that the remission of sins, the Holy Ghost, or eternal salvation ARE God's grace.

Give me a detailed post describing exactly what you believe God’s grace to be. I am sure that I will find it most enlightening.

Why is it that you never respond with information requested???

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

[dberrie2000]

Is that anything unlike this verse?

1 Peter 3:20-22---King James Version (KJV)
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

So--the question remains--is that reference to "faith" in Luke 7 a reference to dead faith--or a faith with works?

James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?



Hi DB,

No one disagrees with what James is saying, that faith without works is dead. It’s obvious that if one talks the talk but doesn’t walk the walk something is amiss. But works play no part in being born again,

Hi Disciple:

Then that is an admission dead faith saves one, and that is what faith alone preaches--a faith without works for salvation.

How does that compare with the testimony of the Savior?


John 5:28-29--King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.


obedience and true works for God are the result of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Again--the faith alone theology runs into some serious flaws in that conclusion--if the testimony of the Biblical text can be believed:


Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.


Men have no desire to submit to God’s authority or do any work for Him, nor can they.

Then you believe the testimony of the scriptures is false?

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.” John 15:5

The work of lost men is not to please God or a step towards salvation.[/quote]

Then you believe these did not take a step toward salvation?

Acts 2:38-42King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.


“And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled.” Col 1:21

Our works do not give God reason to save us. We are justified and reconciled by His blood and death.

And do the scriptures not testify this Blood goes to them that walk in His light?

1 John 1:7----King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

[theway]

P

It’s obvious that if one talks the talk but doesn’t walk the walk something is amiss. But works play no part in being born again, obedience and true works for God are the result of the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Why is it you can not see the blatant contradiction in your statement above???
According to you, if works truely has nothing to do with our salvation; then works, WHETHER GOOD OR BAD, WHETHER DONE BEFORE OR AFTER, would have nothing to do with our salvation. Which would mean, "if our walk was amiss" it would have nothing to do with whether we were saved or not!

Ironically, what you are saying is that "good works" would not have any efect on our salvation, only bad works do!???
Oh, how far man has fallen from the truth...

[disciple]

P
Why is it you can not see the blatant contradiction in your statement above???
According to you, if works truely has nothing to do with our salvation; then works, WHETHER GOOD OR BAD, WHETHER DONE BEFORE OR AFTER, would have nothing to do with our salvation. Which would mean, "if our walk was amiss" it would have nothing to do with whether we were saved or not!

Ironically, what you are saying is that "good works" would not have any efect on our salvation, only bad works do!???
Oh, how far man has fallen from the truth...

It seems you misunderstand. Works or fruit are the proof of salvation. If a man claims to be saved yet shows no change in his life his claim is suspect.

[theway]

It seems you misunderstand. Quit the contrary, it's precisely because I do understand, is why I am able to show all the contradictions in your statements. You seem to be the one who has not thought it through yet.
For instance let's look at your statements below.


Works or fruit are the proof of salvation. Not according to your beliefs.
Because if you truely believe that works are not a requirement for our salvation. Then works; whether done before a person was saved, or whether those works were good or bad, would not be proof of anything related to salvation.



If a man claims to be saved yet shows no change in his life his claim is suspect.No, he would not be under your theology, that is yet another Faith Alone for salvation paradox.
For if you believe so, then you would have to draw a line separating who is saved and who is not, and that line would have to be based on a person's works.
For instance, if I say I am saved and stole a hundred pencils, would I still be saved? What about one pencil?
What if I used to rape three women a year and mudered three people a year before I was saved, but now that I am saved I have not raped anybody and I have only murdered two people... Is that proof that I am saved?

The problem is that you decry works for salvation, but then turn around and make works the defining criteria of salvation.... It's nothing but hypocrasy.... I have no idea why you can not see that?

[dberrie2000]

It seems you misunderstand. Works or fruit are the proof of salvation. If a man claims to be saved yet shows no change in his life his claim is suspect.

That still connects works and salvation. If one obtains salvation independent of works--that one cannot redact after salvation and then claim one's salvation is suspect because of the absence of works.

Salvation and works are connected in the Bible:

Revelation 22:14--King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Matthew 19:16-19--King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

[disciple]

Quit the contrary, it's precisely because I do understand, is why I am able to show all the contradictions in your statements. You seem to be the one who has not thought it through yet.
For instance let's look at your statements below.

Not according to your beliefs.
Because if you truely believe that works are not a requirement for our salvation. Then works; whether done before a person was saved, or whether those works were good or bad, would not be proof of anything related to salvation.


No, he would not be under your theology, that is yet another Faith Alone for salvation paradox.
For if you believe so, then you would have to draw a line separating who is saved and who is not, and that line would have to be based on a person's works.
For instance, if I say I am saved and stole a hundred pencils, would I still be saved? What about one pencil?
What if I used to rape three women a year and mudered three people a year before I was saved, but now that I am saved I have not raped anybody and I have only murdered two people... Is that proof that I am saved?

The problem is that you decry works for salvation, but then turn around and make works the defining criteria of salvation.... It's nothing but hypocrasy.... I have no idea why you can not see that?

Hello Way,
When one is born again he is a new creation in Christ, willing and able by the Holy Spirit to serve and obey God and as the scripture says in Matthew 7:16-20,
"You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act. Can you pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? A good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit. A good tree can’t produce bad fruit, and a bad tree can’t produce good fruit. So every tree that does not produce good fruit is chopped down and thrown into the fire. Yes, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit, so you can identify people by their actions."
Before one is born again he is an enemy of God, a bad tree, and will not obey, works have no part in salvation, works are the fruit of salvation. You are complicating something that is simple and clear and I understand why. You must convince yourself that your religion is correct, it is human nature to want to be right. In this case you are very wrong, sincere but wrong. Zealous without correct knowledge.

[theway]

Hello Way,
When one is born again he is a new creation in Christ, willing and able by the Holy Spirit to serve and obey God and as the scripture says in Matthew 7:16-20,
"You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act. Can you pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? A good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit. A good tree can’t produce bad fruit, and a bad tree can’t produce good fruit. So every tree that does not produce good fruit is chopped down and thrown into the fire. Yes, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit, so you can identify people by their actions."
Before one is born again he is an enemy of God, a bad tree, and will not obey, works have no part in salvation, works are the fruit of salvation. You are complicating something that is simple and clear and I understand why. You must convince yourself that your religion is correct, it is human nature to want to be right. In this case you are very wrong, sincere but wrong. Zealous without correct knowledge.
Once again, all you are trying to do is give us a nonsensical argument you "think" supports you. When in fact it argues against you and only shows the flaws in your theory.
You say that works have nothing to do with salvation, but then tell us the criteria you use to tell whether someone is saved is by their works??? One of these statements is wrong, they can not be true at the same time.
Next you would want us to believe more illogical and unbiblical nonsense, by saying that man is a complete enemy to God before they are saved and could never do any good works.
There are many problems with that.
One, that would mean that man can only be saved against their will and it must be forced on them.
Two, how can a person have a belief in Christ in order to be saved, and reject him at the same time?
Third, according to the verse you provided it says that a man can not get grapes from thorn bushes, yet you are trying to tell us that man is a thorn bush from which good grapes will come... You just contradicted your own evidence???
Four, if you look at your verse again, it never says that the unsaved are bad trees. That part you just made-up;because these verses are about how to tell a false Prophet from a true Prophet.
I could go on pointing out all the errors in your theories but I haven't that much time in life.

[disciple]

Once again, all you are trying to do is give us a nonsensical argument you "think" supports you. When in fact it argues against you and only shows the flaws in your theory.
You say that works have nothing to do with salvation, but then tell us the criteria you use to tell whether someone is saved is by their works??? One of these statements is wrong, they can not be true at the same time.
Next you would want us to believe more illogical and unbiblical nonsense, by saying that man is a complete enemy to God before they are saved and could never do any good works.
There are many problems with that.
One, that would mean that man can only be saved against their will and it must be forced on them.
Two, how can a person have a belief in Christ in order to be saved, and reject him at the same time?
Third, according to the verse you provided it says that a man can not get grapes from thorn bushes, yet you are trying to tell us that man is a thorn bush from which good grapes will come... You just contradicted your own evidence???
Four, if you look at your verse again, it never says that the unsaved are bad trees. That part you just made-up;because these verses are about how to tell a false Prophet from a true Prophet.
I could go on pointing out all the errors in your theories but I haven't that much time in life.

So you think a false prophet is a saved man? One more time, works do not save, works are the proof of salvation.

[theway]

So you think a false prophet is a saved man? One more time, works do not save, works are the proof of salvation.You are trying to argue Apples and Oranges... And yes, by your theology a false prophet could be a saved man, and hence the paradox. For instance, if a person gets saved yet decides to turn away from the truth and preach a false gospel, he would still be saved in your theology... Else you are saying that his salvation was determined by his works.

[dberrie2000]

It seems you misunderstand. Works or fruit are the proof of salvation. If a man claims to be saved yet shows no change in his life his claim is suspect.


That still connects works and salvation. If one obtains salvation independent of works--that one cannot redact after salvation and then claim one's salvation is suspect because of the absence of works.

Salvation and works are connected in the Bible:

Revelation 22:14--King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Matthew 19:16-19--King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Bump for Disciple

[dberrie2000]

One more time, works do not save, works are the proof of salvation.

I don't see anyone arguing that works saves--only that God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

[disciple]

I don't see anyone arguing that works saves--only that God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Hello DB,

Ok, then who are those that will obey Him. The scriptures tell us, (not my theology but God's word) that before we are born again we are enemies of God(Rom 5:10)
(Col 1:21) and we do not seek Him(Rom 3:11). Also the preaching of the cross is foolishness to the lost.(1 cor. 1:18). So who will obey or seek without first receiving unmerited grace?

[dberrie2000]

Hello DB,

Ok, then who are those that will obey Him.

Those that desire eternal life:


2 John 1:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

How can one be saved without God? One must obey the doctrine to have God.


The scriptures tell us, (not my theology but God's word) that before we are born again we are enemies of God(Rom 5:10)
(Col 1:21) and we do not seek Him(Rom 3:11). Also the preaching of the cross is foolishness to the lost.(1 cor. 1:18). So who will obey or seek without first receiving unmerited grace?

All received of God's free gift in His Atonement:

Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

[alanmolstad]

In the end....


I have seen Mormons over the years post here, and in the end they always come down on the side of a "works salvation"

regardless of how they try to twist the wordings,,,the net result is the same...they believe that works count.

They believe that works make you saved.

They believe that works are more important that even what god you believe in,,,,








so yes, I believe they are always wrong.