One is saved through dead faith?

[dberrie2000]

In order to have a faith that functions there is a work function that is attached as an obligation for a functioning faith. That functioning faith, alone, brings salvation without works such as baptism.

A functioning faith operates as follows:
You are out in a wilderness and are at the point of starvation and death. Someone finds you and gets you into their home and puts you at a table with food and water that will keep you from death if you eat it. You could have faith that if you eat and drink what has been provided you will not die. If you fail to do the work of eating and drinking your faith is not functioning. Faith without works is dead.

Faith and the functioning work is what is needed for salvation. There is nothing that you do except believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. (See Acts 16:30 and 31) Believing is the functioning faith that God requires of you and he, by grace, saves you. (See Ephesians 2:8 and 9) Faith and a functioning work attached to that faith equals faith that is not dead. Dead faith nor works saves anyone.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Question for the board here--when one finds the term "faith" in the scriptures--do they ***ume it is a reference to dead faith?

James 2:20----King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon View PostIn order to have a faith that functions there is a work function that is attached as an obligation for a functioning faith. That functioning faith, alone, brings salvation without works such as baptism.

A functioning faith operates as follows:
You are out in a wilderness and are at the point of starvation and death. Someone finds you and gets you into their home and puts you at a table with food and water that will keep you from death if you eat it. You could have faith that if you eat and drink what has been provided you will not die. If you fail to do the work of eating and drinking your faith is not functioning. Faith without works is dead.

Faith and the functioning work is what is needed for salvation. There is nothing that you do except believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. (See Acts 16:30 and 31) Believing is the functioning faith that God requires of you and he, by grace, saves you. (See Ephesians 2:8 and 9) Faith and a functioning work attached to that faith equals faith that is not dead. Dead faith nor works saves anyone.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Question for the board here--when one finds the term "faith" in the scriptures--do they ***ume it is a reference to dead faith?

James 2:20----King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Bump for the board

[MichaellS]

Bump for the board

BTW, what do you guys mean by “bump” here, I doubt a glossary exist but would be handy.


Question for the board here--when one finds the term "faith" in the scriptures--do they ***ume it is a reference to dead faith?

James 2:20----King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Only if that “faith” is all there is to receiving that “gift”. But it isn’t, for it is now at an entirely specific point energized to do the “works”.


“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the children of God, even to them that believe on his name” (John 1:12)

Mike.

[dberrie2000]

BTW, what do you guys mean by “bump” here, I doubt a glossary exist but would be handy.

Hi Michael. "Bump" means a call for attention to something that was not answered.


Only if that “faith” is all there is to receiving that “gift”. But it isn’t, for it is now at an entirely specific point energized to do the “works”.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[INDENT][FONT=Arial Narrow][SIZE=3][B][I][COLOR="#808080"]“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the children of God, even to them that believe on his name” (John 1:12)

Were these the ones who received Him--and believe on His name?

Revelation 22:14King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

[MichaellS]

Were these the ones who received Him--and believe on His name?

Revelation 22:14King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Hi dberrie!

As I’m sure you know, they cannot “do his commandments” till they receive his given “power” (Jn1:12), because it is not describing the “command” (Acts17:30), to repent, but gain further privileges.

So yes, they are the ones.

Just as they cannot exert a right to the “tree of life” till they believe on Him. Right there again is that point where the NO-need for works (Eph2:8,9), becomes A-need (Jms2:26) for works, , and they can, energized to “do His commandments”.

Have I followed or responded to your question/point correctly? Has this topic been of some concern here? I ask because I haven’t familiarized myself enough but only to say I have seen a number of instances on the log. So I suspect it has. And if it has I feel this has found itself in a bit of circular treatment.

If so, I would invite you to either link or briefly summarize a couple of the majors going on here for me. Nearly total strangers and I submit a thing like that, can't hardly believe myself. A y/n will do fine. :D

Mike.

[dberrie2000]

[FONT=Arial Narrow][SIZE=3]Hi dberrie!

As I’m sure you know, they cannot “do his commandments” till they receive his given “power” (Jn1:12), because it is not describing the “command” (Acts17:30), to repent, but gain further privileges.

So yes, they are the ones.

Just as they cannot exert a right to the “tree of life” till they believe on Him. Right there again is that point where the NO-need for works (Eph2:8,9), becomes A-need (Jms2:26) for works, , and they can, energized to “do His commandments”.

Have I followed or responded to your question/point correctly? Has this topic been of some concern here? I ask because I haven’t familiarized myself enough but only to say I have seen a number of instances on the log. So I suspect it has. And if it has I feel this has found itself in a bit of circular treatment.

If so, I would invite you to either link or briefly summarize a couple of the majors going on here for me. Nearly total strangers and I submit a thing like that, can't hardly believe myself. A y/n will do fine.

Hi Michaells, and a good morning to you.

There has been a lot of discussion on the topic and answer you give here. I believe the concern centers on the relationship between works(acts of obedience to Jesus Christ)--and His grace unto life.

The faith alone theology preaches a salvation through a faith without works. The Biblical writers testify of a salvation by grace to those who obey Him, IE--

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

That might get us started--it is a complicated subject that can lead to a lot of discovery, for those who are willing to engage the Biblical record.

[dberrie2000]

[QUOTE=dberrie2000;161993]Hi Michaells, and a good morning to you.

There has been a lot of discussion on the topic and answer you give here. I believe the concern centers on the relationship between works(acts of obedience to Jesus Christ)--and His grace unto life.

The faith alone theology preaches a salvation through a faith without works. The Biblical writers testify of a salvation by grace to those who obey Him, IE--

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

That might get us started--it is a complicated subject that can lead to a lot of discovery, for those who are willing to engage the Biblical record.

Bump for anyone

[disciple]

[QUOTE=dberrie2000;161993]Hi Michaells, and a good morning to you.

There has been a lot of discussion on the topic and answer you give here. I believe the concern centers on the relationship between works(acts of obedience to Jesus Christ)--and His grace unto life.

The faith alone theology preaches a salvation through a faith without works. The Biblical writers testify of a salvation by grace to those who obey Him, IE--

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

That might get us started--it is a complicated subject that can lead to a lot of discovery, for those who are willing to engage the Biblical record.

Bump for anyone

Hi DB,
I do not deny that works are an important part of the Christian life, but works do not merit saving grace, works are the fruit of said grace. Let’s look at a few verses pertaining to faith.
"Now faith is the ***urance (or substance) of things hoped for, the conviction (or evidence) of things not seen. For by it the men of old gained approval." Heb 11:1-2
The ”men of old” did not gain approval by works even though their works were evident. It is not just what we do (works) that matters, but how we do it. Do our works express "the ***urance of things hoped for", are they the logical conclusion of trusting the One who prepared those works for us beforehand? Faith and the works that follow depends on what God is like, not on what we are like.
“But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.” Heb 11:6
Works do not please God in the sense that theses works will merit grace, nor does God depend on us to do works, not in the least. Works belong in the Christian life but they are the fruit and proof of salvation not a stepping stone. Faith has at least these two components: one is the conviction that there is a great unseen God who exists absolutely and does not depend on us in the least. And the other is the ***urance that this God is a God of love and mercy and offers free and sovereign grace for all who seek him in truth.

[dberrie2000]

Hi Michaells, and a good morning to you.

There has been a lot of discussion on the topic and answer you give here. I believe the concern centers on the relationship between works(acts of obedience to Jesus Christ)--and His grace unto life.

The faith alone theology preaches a salvation through a faith without works. The Biblical writers testify of a salvation by grace to those who obey Him, IE--

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

That might get us started--it is a complicated subject that can lead to a lot of discovery, for those who are willing to engage the Biblical record.


Hi DB,

I do not deny that works are an important part of the Christian life, but works do not merit saving grace, works are the fruit of said grace.

Hi Disciple:

The scriptures have God giving His salvational grace to them that do His work, IE--

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I believe there are some questions we might want to ask ourselves about this scripture:

1) What is it about repentance and water baptism we don't consider as obedience--and what is there about the remission of sins we don't consider God's salvational grace?

2) Did those who repented and were water baptized--merit the remission of sins?

3) What do you call God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him? Why does the remission of sins not cons***ute God's grace--even if God gives it to those who obey Him?

4)Where do we find God giving His salvational grace, as a personal reception--to anyone other than those who obey Him, IE--


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;



Galatians 6:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

[dberrie2000]

Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post ---Hi DB,

Let’s look at a few verses pertaining to faith.

"Now faith is the ***urance (or substance) of things hoped for, the conviction (or evidence) of things not seen. For by it the men of old gained approval." Heb 11:1-2

Hi Disciple:

First--when you refer to "faith"--is that a dead faith--or a faith with works?

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

All obedience to God is an integral component to the term "faith"--just as an engine is an integral component to the term "car".


The ”men of old” did not gain approval by works even though their works were evident.

I believe the scriptures disagree:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Here is the extension of those blessings:

Galatians 3:26-29---King James Version (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by disciple View Post ---Hi DB,

Let’s look at a few verses pertaining to faith.

"Now faith is the ***urance (or substance) of things hoped for, the conviction (or evidence) of things not seen. For by it the men of old gained approval." Heb 11:1-2

Hi Disciple:

First--when you refer to "faith"--is that a dead faith--or a faith with works?

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

All obedience to God is an integral component to the term "faith"--just as an engine is an integral component to the term "car".


The ”men of old” did not gain approval by works even though their works were evident.

I believe the scriptures disagree:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Here is the extension of those blessings:

Galatians 3:26-29---King James Version (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Bump for anyone

[Apologette]

Question for the board here--when one finds the term "faith" in the scriptures--do they ***ume it is a reference to dead faith?

James 2:20----King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

dberrie used to post this several times each week on CARM. It was obsessive and compulsive. It became a joke on CARM. dberrie has a need to oppose salvation by grace through faith, and to preach that Satan is a true and powerful god. dberrie tried to bring the whole forum down with his obsessive posting - and his attempt to turn every single thread into a discussion of the Mormon works program for salvation. Have fun with him. dberrie is the quintessential troll.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----Question for the board here--when one finds the term "faith" in the scriptures--do they ***ume it is a reference to dead faith?

James 2:20----King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


[B]dberrie used to post this several times each week on CARM. It was obsessive and compulsive. It became a joke on CARM.

What do you consider a joke about the Biblical testimony above?

[dberrie2000]

Question for the board here--when one finds the term "faith" in the scriptures--do they ***ume it is a reference to dead faith?

James 2:20----King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


[B]dberrie used to post this several times each week on CARM. It was obsessive and compulsive. It became a joke on CARM.

What do you consider a joke about the Biblical testimony above?

Bump for Apologette

[BigJulie]

What do you consider a joke about the Biblical testimony above?

Bump for Apologette

It is a powerful scripture--faith without works is dead. One of the great revelations understand by those within the church is the importance of works. In a world that wants more and more to be given to and less and less to give, understanding that God does expect us and want us to work is crucial to understanding that work is a key to happiness.

[BigJulie]

What do you consider a joke about the Biblical testimony above?

Bump for Apologette

It is a powerful scripture--faith without works is dead. One of the great revelations understand by those within the church is the importance of works. In a world that wants more and more to be given to and less and less to give, understanding that God does expect us and want us to work is crucial to understanding that work is a key to happiness.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostQuestion for the board here--when one finds the term "faith" in the scriptures--do they ***ume it is a reference to dead faith?

James 2:20----King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


Quote Originally Posted by Apologette View Post

[B]dberrie used to post this several times each week on CARM. It was obsessive and compulsive. It became a joke on CARM.

What do you consider a joke about the Biblical testimony above?

Bump for Apologette

[Christian]

What do you consider a joke about the Biblical testimony above?

Bump for Apologette

I consider the joke about YOUR COMPULSION and OBSESSION to be a joke. The fact that you have demonstrated that you do not understand the meaning of CONTEXT IN THE BIBLE is simply pathetic of you.

[BigJulie]

I consider the joke about YOUR COMPULSION and OBSESSION to be a joke. The fact that you have demonstrated that you do not understand the meaning of CONTEXT IN THE BIBLE is simply pathetic of you.

Ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a logical fallacy in which an argument is re****ed by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons ***ociated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.

[Christian]

Ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a logical fallacy in which an argument is re****ed by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons ***ociated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.

However telling the truth and noting honest observations are NOT ad hominem, are they?

Your 'arguments' lack substance and you cannot deal with the Truth. (Observations, not attacks at all)

[BigJulie]

However telling the truth and noting honest observations are NOT ad hominem, are they?



You said:


I consider the joke about YOUR COMPULSION and OBSESSION to be a joke. The fact that you have demonstrated that you do not understand the meaning of CONTEXT IN THE BIBLE is simply pathetic of you.

If you see this comment as an "honest observation" and not an attack--well, that explains a lot.

But I have learned in this forum that when a poster cannot defend their position, they begin to attack the messenger instead.

Here is what happened to Christ when the same type of thing happened and how the Pharisees justified themselves:

Jhn 11:50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

The Pharisees also believed the Christ's teachings would doom the "chosen" people to hell so it would be better to crucify him.

[Christian]

Question for the board here--when one finds the term "faith" in the scriptures--do they ***ume it is a reference to dead faith?

James 2:20----King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

True faith is NEVER dead; it is ALWAYS FOLLOWED BY works.

But it is the faith, not the works that saves you from GOD'S perspective.

In James 2 it is talking about 'if a man SAYS he has faith. . .' how will you (a mere human) RECOGNIZE it?

Doesn't it bother you that there is NO PHYSICAL EVIDENCE ANYWHERE to substantiate the fantasies of joe smith's writings? Isn't it 'convenient' that the golden plates aren't there, NO EVIDENCE ANYWHERE that nephites existed, etc? It would bother ME a lot, if I were you. . .

[BigJulie]

True faith is NEVER dead; it is ALWAYS FOLLOWED BY works.

But it is the faith, not the works that saves you from GOD'S perspective.

In James 2 it is talking about 'if a man SAYS he has faith. . .' how will you (a mere human) RECOGNIZE it?

Doesn't it bother you that there is NO PHYSICAL EVIDENCE ANYWHERE to substantiate the fantasies of joe smith's writings? Isn't it 'convenient' that the golden plates aren't there, NO EVIDENCE ANYWHERE that nephites existed, etc? It would bother ME a lot, if I were you. . .


Must end again with a criticism. Yes--faith is always followed by works which is why God can judge a man by his works.

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

So, once again---why does God give to them who keepeth his works "power over nations." What do you think is meant by this?

[BigJulie]

True faith is NEVER dead; it is ALWAYS FOLLOWED BY works.

But it is the faith, not the works that saves you from GOD'S perspective.

In James 2 it is talking about 'if a man SAYS he has faith. . .' how will you (a mere human) RECOGNIZE it?

Doesn't it bother you that there is NO PHYSICAL EVIDENCE ANYWHERE to substantiate the fantasies of joe smith's writings? Isn't it 'convenient' that the golden plates aren't there, NO EVIDENCE ANYWHERE that nephites existed, etc? It would bother ME a lot, if I were you. . .


Must end again with a criticism. Yes--faith is always followed by works which is why God can judge a man by his works.

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

So, once again---why does God give to them who keepeth his works "power over nations." What do you think is meant by this?

[Christian]

big posted:

Must end again with a criticism. Yes--faith is always followed by works which is why God can judge a man by his works.

If you bothered to READ the James p***age, you might learn that it is NOT GOD, but MAN who judges a man by his works. The p***age has nothing to do with how GOD judges whether your faith is real or not. . .HE KNOWS YOUR HEART better than you do.

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

So, once again---why does God give to them who keepeth his works "power over nations." What do you think is meant by this?

Perhaps you should start reading the p***age at verse 18 and read through verse 29. . .You might learn the CONTEXT of the p***age. Jesus tells John to write of the church at Thyatira for following Jezebel and who teaches all sorts of BAD things. To those who do NOT believe her false doctrines, they will do good.

Do you believe verse 27? WHO do you think holds the rod of iron? Is it really a rod made of the metal iron, or is it a figure of speech that means 'strictly'?

CONTEXT is important, big. Instead of 'grabbing for 'prooftexts', you should read the WHOLE P***AGE and GET YOUR DOCTRINE FROM THE TEXT instead of trying to SHOVE YOUR DOCTRINE INTO THE TEXT.

You'd learn more from God.

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE=Christian;169625]If you bothered to READ the James p***age, you might learn that it is NOT GOD, but MAN who judges a man by his works. The p***age has nothing to do with how GOD judges whether your faith is real or not. . .HE KNOWS YOUR HEART better than you do.[/COLOR] I wasn't referring to James, I was referring to revelations.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.


Perhaps you should start reading the p***age at verse 18 and read through verse 29. . .You might learn the CONTEXT of the p***age. Jesus tells John to write of the church at Thyatira for following Jezebel and who teaches all sorts of BAD things. To those who do NOT believe her false doctrines, they will do good. And those that do good "unto the end" (which means until their death) will be given "power over nations"

What "nations" will those be?


Do you believe verse 27? WHO do you think holds the rod of iron? Is it really a rod made of the metal iron, or is it a figure of speech that means 'strictly'?Keep reading--because it says " even as I received of my Father."--so this group, that overcomes to the end who shall rule with an rod of iron even as Christ has---how do you interpret this?


CONTEXT is important, big. Instead of 'grabbing for 'prooftexts', you should read the WHOLE P***AGE and GET YOUR DOCTRINE FROM THE TEXT instead of trying to SHOVE YOUR DOCTRINE INTO THE TEXT.
[/COLOR] Oh, trust me I have. So--what does it mean to you? You have this group of people who did good until the end that are given quite the promise. What does it mean to you?

You'd learn more from God. I agree---not from you. I believe you will not be able to answer what this means, even in context.

[teenapenny]

It is a powerful scripture--faith without works is dead. One of the great revelations understand by those within the church is the importance of works. In a world that wants more and more to be given to and less and less to give, understanding that God does expect us and want us to work is crucial to understanding that work is a key to happiness.
If we truly have faith in Jesus, we will live as he wants us to.

[Phoenix]

If we truly have faith in Jesus, we will live as he wants us to.

....which means, among other things, that we will treat other people the way He wants us to.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostQuestion for the board here--when one finds the term "faith" in the scriptures--do they ***ume it is a reference to dead faith?

James 2:20----King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


True faith is NEVER dead;

So--is "true faith" a faith with works--or a faith without works?

[dberrie2000]

If we truly have faith in Jesus, we will live as he wants us to.

I don't believe anyone is arguing that--only that faith alone theology--that preaches one is saved through a faith without works--is a false theology, if what the Bible testifies to is true:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[teenapenny]

I don't believe anyone is arguing that--only that faith alone theology--that preaches one is saved through a faith without works--is a false theology, if what the Bible testifies to is true:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
If you have true faith, there will be works. There is no such thing as faith without works.

[teenapenny]

I don't believe anyone is arguing that--only that faith alone theology--that preaches one is saved through a faith without works--is a false theology, if what the Bible testifies to is true:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
If you have true faith, there will be works. There is no such thing as faith without works.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostI don't believe anyone is arguing that--only that faith alone theology--that preaches one is saved through a faith without works--is a false theology, if what the Bible testifies to is true:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


If you have true faith, there will be works. There is no such thing as faith without works.

I'm not sure James would have taken the time to address an imaginary point:

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

So--if there is no such thing as faith without works--then why do the faith alone preach a theology of salvation through a faith without works--referred to as "faith alone--sola fide"? :IE

Sola fide----From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also known as justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and some parts of the Restoration Movement.

The doctrine of sola fide ***erts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith alone, excluding all "works".

[teenapenny]

I'm not sure James would have taken the time to address an imaginary point:

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

So--if there is no such thing as faith without works--then why do the faith alone preach a theology of salvation through a faith without works--referred to as "faith alone--sola fide"? :IE

Sola fide----From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also known as justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and some parts of the Restoration Movement.

The doctrine of sola fide ***erts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith alone, excluding all "works".
Yes, Faith without works is dead, because if you truly have faith there will be works.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostI'm not sure James would have taken the time to address an imaginary point:

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

So--if there is no such thing as faith without works--then why do the faith alone preach a theology of salvation through a faith without works--referred to as "faith alone--sola fide"? :IE

Sola fide----From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also known as justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and some parts of the Restoration Movement.

The doctrine of sola fide ***erts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith alone, excluding all "works".


Yes, Faith without works is dead, because if you truly have faith there will be works.

Thanks for that reply.

But again--that begs the question, if what you state is true:

Why do the faith alone preach a salvation through a faith without works?

[teenapenny]

Thanks for that reply.

But again--that begs the question, if what you state is true:

Why do the faith alone preach a salvation through a faith without works?
You just do not understand what they are saying. Works alone will not get there.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostThanks for that reply.

But again--that begs the question, if what you state is true:

Why do the faith alone preach a salvation through a faith without works?


You just do not understand what they are saying.

That's a common retort--but my question is--what is it about faith alone(sola fide)theology that is not being understood?

Sola fide--From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also known as justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and some parts of the Restoration Movement.

The doctrine of sola fide ***erts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith alone, excluding all "works".



Works alone will not get there.

No one is arguing works alone--the point centers in why the faith alone preach a salvation through a faith without works.

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

[Christian]

joe smith is dead. That makes HIS religion 'dead faith' doesn't it?

[dberrie2000]

joe smith is dead. That makes HIS religion 'dead faith' doesn't it?

Not anymore than it makes it dead faith since His first century NT apostles died.

John 13:20---King James Version (KJV)
20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

[Christian]

Not anymore than it makes it dead faith since His first century NT apostles died.

John 13:20---King James Version (KJV)
20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

You haven't shown ANY EVIDENCE AT ALL that joe smith was ever sent by JESUS CHRIST.

NOBODY in the supposed first vision clearing claimed to be God.
NOBODY in the supposed first vision clearing claimed to be Jesus.
One time joe smith said they were angels.
Other times not.

SEVERAL DIFFERING 'first vision' claims by smith contradict there being any god there.

So joey smith's religion remains dead, and the p***age you gave does not apply to him.

[Phoenix]

NOBODY in the supposed first vision clearing claimed to be God.


Similarly, NOBODY at the supposed baptism of Jesus claimed to be God. The account says merely that a voice came from the sky saying "This is my beloved Son."
Kinda like Joseph Smith's account that said the same thing.

And at the supposed stoning of Stephen, NOBODY in his vision claimed to be God.

So what you have done here, is accused the Bible of lying, or you have accused every Christian of being wrong because they believe that it WAS God who spoke from heaven at Jesus' baptism, and it WAS God and Jesus who Stephen saw above him before he died....even though in both cases "NOBODY CLAIMED TO BE GOD."

Maybe there is no rule in the Bible that says "If the being in a theophany doesn't claim to be God, then you should sneer at anyone who believes it was God."

[dberrie2000]

[COLOR=#0000ff]You haven't shown ANY EVIDENCE AT ALL that joe smith was ever sent by JESUS CHRIST.

D&C 110

1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.

2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.

3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:

4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.

5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.

6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.

7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.

8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.

9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.

10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.

11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.

12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.

13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:

14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi—testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come—

15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse—

16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.

[Christian]

berrie posted:


You haven't shown ANY EVIDENCE AT ALL that joe smith was ever sent by JESUS CHRIST.

D&C 110

<SNIP>

STILL NO EVIDENCE AT ALL. Just joe writing his own false fiction, PRETENDING it is from God.

Just because joe smith SAYS he was sent by Jesus does NOT MAKE IT SO.

You STILL haven't shown ANY EVIDENCE AT ALL that joe smith was ever sent by JESUS CHRIST.

All you have shown is joe and his fictional writings.

[Christian]

julie posted:

You said:


I consider the joke about YOUR COMPULSION and OBSESSION to be a joke. The fact that you have demonstrated that you do not understand the meaning of CONTEXT IN THE BIBLE is simply pathetic of you.

If you see this comment as an "honest observation" and not an attack--well, that explains a lot.

He made a joke. I considered it to BE a joke. His bad hermeneutics ARE pathetic. If you don't like the TRUTH, I am sorry for you.

But I have learned in this forum that when a poster cannot defend their position, they begin to attack the messenger instead.

You do seem to 'sling that tool around' a lot, don't you?

Here is what happened to Christ when the same type of thing happened and how the Pharisees justified themselves:

Jhn 11:50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

The Pharisees also believed the Christ's teachings would doom the "chosen" people to hell so it would be better to crucify him.

When did your mormon religion begin to teach THAT? Or is it 'your own thing?'

God's CHOSEN PEOPLE will not go to Hell. WHOM GOD CHOSE, HE SAVED THROUGH FAITH. Sorry if you don't like that. It is what the Bible teaches, and what I believe.

But you believe WHAT? That Christ's teachings will 'doom God's chosen people to hell?'

Awwwww. I don't believe that. The pharisees never said that either. I think you made that one up ON YOUR OWN.

[dberrie2000]

STILL NO EVIDENCE AT ALL. Just joe writing his own false fiction, PRETENDING it is from God.

I suppose there are many who make the same argument about the Bible.

But when the Lord acts among men--He leaves a record of the heavenly visitations--with witnesses. That is what the Biblical record is--and what D&c 110 shows:

D&C 110
1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.
6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.
7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.
8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.
9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.
10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.
11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi—testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come—
15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse—
16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.

Christian--the LDS church has numerous such heavenly visitations to display to mankind, just as the Biblical NT authors did. That is the pattern the Lord uses.

Perhaps you could show those kinds of visitations in your church history. The LDS can.

[Christian]

You should know, berrie. You should know. . .

Just answer for yourself.

[dberrie2000]

STILL NO EVIDENCE AT ALL. Just joe writing his own false fiction, PRETENDING it is from God.

I suppose there are many who make the same argument about the Bible.

But when the Lord acts among men--He leaves a record of the heavenly visitations--with witnesses. That is what the Biblical record is--and what D&c 110 shows:

D&C 110
1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.
6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.
7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.
8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.
9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.
10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.
11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi—testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come—
15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse—
16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.

Christian--the LDS church has numerous such heavenly visitations to display to mankind, just as the Biblical NT authors did. That is the pattern the Lord uses.

Perhaps you could show those kinds of visitations in your church history. The LDS can.[/quote]


You should know, berrie. You should know. . .

Just answer for yourself.

Yes, Christian, I know. That is the reason I'm LDS.

So--do you have any heavenly visitations of your church you would like to share with us?

Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.


Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

[Christian]

More junk offered by smith and his cronies, yet NO EVIDENCE that Smith had anything to do with GOD at all. LOTS of junk from smith and those he conned, but NO REAL EVIDENCE OF ANYTHING.

No remnants of any person, place or events in the bom. NO evidence of his 'prophesies' coming true (the temple lot STILL belongs to a DIFFERENT group of mormons than your own). NOTHING to cause us to believe that brigham young's group was chosen by GOD to do anything special.

NOTHING AT ALL, but your own DEAD FAITH IN JOE SMITH.

Doesn't that bother you at all, that NONE OF IT is based in the REAL WORLD? It all depends on the huckster conman, joe smith? There is no REALITY connected to it?

[dberrie2000]

I suppose there are many who make the same argument about the Bible.

But when the Lord acts among men--He leaves a record of the heavenly visitations--with witnesses. That is what the Biblical record is--and what D&c 110 shows:

D&C 110
1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.
6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.
7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.
8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.
9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.
10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.
11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi—testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come—
15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse—
16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.

Christian--the LDS church has numerous such heavenly visitations to display to mankind, just as the Biblical NT authors did. That is the pattern the Lord uses.

Perhaps you could show those kinds of visitations in your church history. The LDS can.

Yes, Christian, I know. That is the reason I'm LDS.

So--do you have any heavenly visitations of your church you would like to share with us?

Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.


Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris


More junk offered by smith and his cronies, yet NO EVIDENCE that Smith had anything to do with GOD at all.

Since when is a written record of heavenly manifestations with witnesses not considered evidence? If what you claim is true--then that renders the Biblical text unreliable evidence.

[Christian]

Julie posted:

I wasn't referring to James, I was referring to revelations.

How many books of RevelationS are IN your Bible? Mine has only one book of REVELATION (singular, the revelation to John. . .)

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their work


Let's see now. . .our names Are ALREADY IN the Book of Life. Do you think we CHRISTIANS are DEAD in heaven? OF COURSE the UNSAVED are dead, and THEY are indeed judged according to their works

You love to read things into the text don't you?

Your works are sinful. IF you are honest, you know YOU SIN DAILY.

IS that what you want to/expect to be judged by?

I'll go with Jesus. HIS POSITION IS:

Rom 4:5-8
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.
NKJV


Paul told us this is Jesus' position. Do you deny Paul?

[dberrie2000]

How many books of RevelationS are IN your Bible?

All the books of the Bible are books of revelation--including this one:

[COLOR="#FF0000"]James 2:20----King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

[Christian]

All the books of the Bible are books of revelation--including this one:

James 2:20----King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

And the TRUTH remains:

Text without CONTEXT is PRETEXT. That is all you have. . .PRETEXT.

So you think people are saved through dead faith?

You can do all the good works that the muslims and atheists do and still go to hell, But

Heb 11:5-6
5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, "and was not found, because God had taken him"; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
NKJV

And THAT FAITH pleases God. Works ALWAYS FOLLOW. IF you have faith (and are thus in God's Favor{in other words, saved}) YOU WILL LIVE ACCORDINGLY.

But you can do all the good works that the muslims and atheists do (feed the hungry in Syria, provide hospitals in Nepal, etc) and still go to Hell.

NOBODY comes to the Father except through Jesus Christ.

John 14:6
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
NKJV

And if you are following a christ that is related to satan, you are going to end up in a VERY BAD PLACE for eternity!

1 Cor 6:9-11
Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor ****sexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

You follow a false religion. A 'christ' your religion claims that is a 'spirit brother' of the demon satan.

He is CLEARLY NOT the Jesus Christ of the Bible. Nobody who is not YOUR PARTICULAR VARIETY of mormonism believes he is.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostAll the books of the Bible are books of revelation--including this one:

James 2:20----King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


[COLOR=#0000cd]And the TRUTH remains:

Text without CONTEXT is PRETEXT. That is all you have. . .PRETEXT.

What I have is the Biblical testimony. Could you explain for us what is there about James2:24 you don't believe is Biblical?

When you find the term "faith" in the Bible--do you believe it is a reference to a faith with works--or a faith without works?


So you think people are saved through dead faith?

No. But you and the faith alone preach a salvation through a faith without works(dead faith).

If you disagree--please list what works you add to faith in salvation?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post All the books of the Bible are books of revelation--including this one:

James 2:20----King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


Originally Posted by Christian View Post [COLOR=#0000cd]And the TRUTH remains:

Text without CONTEXT is PRETEXT. That is all you have. . .PRETEXT.

What I have is the Biblical testimony. Could you explain for us what is there about James2:24 you don't believe is Biblical?

When you find the term "faith" in the Bible--do you believe it is a reference to a faith with works--or a faith without works?


So you think people are saved through dead faith?

No. But you and the faith alone preach a salvation through a faith without works(dead faith).

If you disagree--please list what works you add to faith in salvation?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Anyone?

[Christian]

Question for the board here--when one finds the term "faith" in the scriptures--do they ***ume it is a reference to dead faith?

James 2:20----King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

So are YOUR works what saves you? JESUS saved me. I do works too, but not to 'get saved.'

SPECIFICALLY what 'works' did YOU do to get saved? Or is YOUR FAITH DEAD?

In the JESUS OF THE BIBLE, Faith ALWAYS RESULTS IN CHRISTIANS DOING GOOD WORKS (Ephesians 2:10, etc)

NOT to 'get' saved, but BECAUSE WE HAVE FAITH AND ARE SAVED.

Once again, what did YOU do to 'GET' saved? HOW DID YOU SAVE YOURSELF?

[Berean]

Question for the board here--when one finds the term "faith" in the scriptures--do they ***ume it is a reference to dead faith?

James 2:20----King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


This appears to be an obsession.

By taking these verses out of context and affording them your own interpretation, you have created a false dilemma.

Your problem is obvious. You have never performed a proper exegesis of these and other verses, nor do you acknowledge when others take the time to do that for you. Perhaps if you did a little research, you might realize that your interpretation is clearly wrong. These and a few others are the ONLY Scriptures you ever use, while completely ignoring the Scriptures and their interpretation, which provide the context for a proper exegesis. You consistently ignore any verses or explanation that proves you wrong, and point back to these which only seem to prove you right, but in fact only demonstrate a clear misunderstanding of the Gospel of salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

[Berean]

Christian..

the reason some focus on these few verses is because they don't want to face the fact that their own religion essentially makes it impossible for them to be saved. So they try to make it difficult for us by presenting false dilemmas for Christians by using Scriptures taken out of context.

Let it be known that Mormons define "salvation, grace and atonement" much differently than Christians

Also consider that Mormonism teaches that Jesus earned his position based on obedience. As Seventy Milton R. Hunter taught,

Jesus became a God and reached His great state of understanding through consistent effort and continuous obedience to all the Gospel truths and universal laws (The Gospel Through the Ages, p. 51).

"Today and forevermore God’s grace is available to all whose hearts are broken and whose spirits are contrite.

On Easter Sunday we celebrate the most long-awaited and glorious event in the history of the world. It is the day that changed everything. On that day, my life changed. Your life changed. The destiny of all God’s children changed. On that blessed day, the Savior of mankind, who had taken upon Himself the chains of sin and death that held us captive, burst those chains and set us free. Because of the sacrifice of our beloved Redeemer, death has no sting, the grave has no victory, Satan has no lasting power, and we are “begotten … again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Truly, the Apostle Paul was correct when he said we can “comfort one another with these words. We often speak of the Saviors Atonement, and rightly so.” (“The Gift of Grace” as delivered by Dieter F. Uchtdorf on Easter morning April 5, 2015)

According to Mormonism, everyone born on this earth gets resurrected, which is called general salvation or salvation by grace. But Mormons, in order to receive “remission of individual sins” and the inheritance of “exaltation in the kingdom of God,” it is necessary to have complete and absolute “obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.” This means they must achieve "godliness," becoming absolutely and completely sinless, all on their own, and in this lifetime. (Moroni 10:32; Alma 11:37; 34, 2 Ne 25:23).

Joseph Fielding Smith said:

"The atonement of Jesus Christ is of a twofold nature. Because of it, all men are redeemed from mortal death and the grave, and will rise in the resurrection to immortality of the soul. Then again, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel, man will receive remission of individual sins, through the blood of Christ, and will inherit exaltation in the kingdom of God, which is eternal life." (Doctrines of Salvation 1:123).

Seventy Gerald N. Lund explained,

"The atonement of Christ overcame physical death through the Resurrection. This is salvation by grace because it comes to all men automatically and does not depend on what kinds of lives they have lived. But, if we wish to overcome spiritual death and enter back into God’s presence, we must be obedient to laws and principles. This is exaltation by works. Thus, according to this explanation, we are saved by grace and exalted by works"(“Salvation: By Grace or by Works?” Ensign, April 1981, p. 18.).

Mormons are quick to point to Bible verses that tell us we must keep the commandments as the only means of redemption, but the basic Christian teaching of Free Grace Theology by contrast, is responding to the “call to believe” in Jesus Christ through faith alone, and that is all that is necessary to receive total forgiveness of all sins, past, present and future and eternal life in God's Presence.