Salvation [Archive] - Walter Martin Ministries Forum

dberrie2000

02-08-2015, 06:13 PM

Give me an example of what it is that you consider obeying him.

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Matthew 25:32-46King James Version (KJV)
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1 Timothy 4:16King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

2 John 1:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Saxon

02-08-2015, 06:23 PM

These verses speak of the saved. The saved obey him. I want to know what the unsaved do in obedience to him in order to get saved.

dberrie2000

02-08-2015, 06:33 PM

These verses speak of the saved. The saved obey him. I want to know what the unsaved do in obedience to him in order to get saved.

So--you believe one is saved prior to the remission of sins?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Saxon

02-08-2015, 07:27 PM

So--you believe one is saved prior to the remission of sins?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

No, I believe that salvation and the remission of sins is a concurrent event. It happens at the same time. Salvation does not happen at water baptism. Water baptism is for the saved. When Philip was asked by the eunuch, “What doth hinder me to be baptized”? Philip said, “If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest.” Remember what Paul and Silas told the jailor when he asked, “What must I do to be saved?” they answered, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved”. All that is required of you from God to be saved is that you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, then God, by his grace, saves you. Believing is the work that makes faith in Christ a live faith.

In Acts 2:38 Peter is saying that you should be baptized because of or for the remission of sins. Peter is not saying be baptized to get your sins remitted but because your sins have been remitted get baptized.

Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Acts 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

dberrie2000

02-08-2015, 08:57 PM

Phoenix

02-08-2015, 09:34 PM

dberrie2000

02-09-2015, 04:24 AM

I agree with you, dberrie. The Bible verses on the subject seem fairly clear to me: If you want to be saved, there are steps you must take first, starting with having faith, and then repenting of sins, and then being baptized, which results in the remission of the sins you had committed, and then you receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, and then you keep taking additional steps on the path that eventually leads to eternal life if you stay on the path.

Hi Phoenix.

The faith alone theology is very confusing, IMO. It's a contradiction of terms and reason--and the greatest lie satan ever pawned upon mankind. Anyone who attempts to defend faith alone theology, by using the Biblical text, will pit themselves against Christ and the NT writers.

Matthew 15:8-9---King James Version (KJV)

8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

alanmolstad

02-09-2015, 05:17 AM

No, I believe that salvation and the remission of sins is a concurrent event. It happens at the same time. Salvation does not happen at water baptism. Water baptism is for the saved. .....

This is correct.

see the :05 seconds point of the video to learn what I believe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVGvPrm817Y
Salvation comes with a change of heart.....its not the things that you do, its the change inside you that is all important.
That is why the Bible tells us that the only way to find salvation is to confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and BELIEVE in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead.

In other words, faith in the Jesus of the Bible,,,(not the Jesus of Mormonism is what saves)

Phoenix

02-09-2015, 05:58 AM

Anyone who attempts to defend faith alone theology, by using the Biblical text, will pit themselves against Christ and the NT writers.

Don't they also pit themselves against some of the Antenicene Fathers?

Apologette

02-09-2015, 09:04 AM

alanmolstad

02-09-2015, 09:15 AM

I would warn Christians here that some of these Mormons are most likely using more than one posting names - and one here is banned for an extended period for doing so on CARM. Don't believe for one second that Mormons share the same ethical standards as Christians.

It would seem that it is not only Mormons that get themselves BANNED from here from time to time.....or so I notice from time to time.

dberrie2000

02-09-2015, 09:27 AM

Don't they also pit themselves against some of the Antenicene Fathers?

I believe the Early Church Fathers were united in the belief water baptism was connected to regeneration(born again). But then--we find that even late:

"Moreover, that it is most solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we cannot be saved..."

SOURCE: The Large Catechism (XIII) - Martin Luther

Phoenix

02-09-2015, 10:07 PM

I believe the Early Church Fathers were united in the belief water baptism was connected to regeneration(born again). But then--we find that even late:
"Moreover, that it is most solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we cannot be saved..."
SOURCE: The Large Catechism (XIII) - Martin Luther

So the question that comes to mind is: What changed between Luther's time and the present, that has caused so much of Christianity to "fall away" or distance itself from this belief and teaching of Luther?

Is it a case of "Christians back then were wrong, but now they are right" or is it a case of "Christians back then had it right, but now they have it wrong" ?

dberrie2000

02-10-2015, 04:27 AM

So the question that comes to mind is: What changed between Luther's time and the present, that has caused so much of Christianity to "fall away" or distance itself from this belief and teaching of Luther?

Is it a case of "Christians back then were wrong, but now they are right" or is it a case of "Christians back then had it right, but now they have it wrong" ?

Here are my thoughts on that: The need for a Reformation indicates there was an apostasy. And since the Reformation did not reform anything--it could more likely be referred to as an attempt to restore what they believed had been lost.

There is a prophecy in the Biblical text that a res***ution would take place:

Acts 3:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of res***ution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

But, that is a heavenly event. If something is lost, as in an apostasy--then there must be a heavenly event that restores it. That means heavenly messengers must be present to do so.

The Reformers saw that something was missing--and attempted to restore it--but could not--as it takes the powers of heaven to do so--and they instead just formed a whole new set of denominations with a whole new theology--which resulted in a theology without heavenly intervention--or, a false or incomplete gospel.

It has since changed dramatically--even in salvational doctrine. But the main ingredient that is missing--is it's authority. That must come from heaven--and I don't see any heavenly beings appearing to anyone in the Reformation, or a claim of such an event.

The LDS church fits the mold of a true restoration:

Doctrine and Covenants 110

1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.

2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.

3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:

4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.

5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.

6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.

7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.

8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.

9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.

10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.

11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.

12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.

13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:

14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi—testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come—

15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse—

16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.

Saxon

02-12-2015, 10:56 PM

Saxon--if repentance and water baptism was for the remission of sins--then you can't take the approach that salvation and the remission of sins happen at the same time, and believe those who were water baptized were already saved.

That dog just ain't gonna hunt.

You have thrown away the rest of the Bible that says that you are saved by grace and not of works (See Ephesians 2:8 and 9) so you can miss-construe Acts 2:38 and come up with the idea that Peter is saying that you have to be baptizes in order to have your sins remitted. What Peter is doing is giving and order of events.

First, repent. Repentance requires faith. It is through man’s faith that the grace of God saves. Repenting is exercising faith in Christ and God saves those that place their faith in Christ. Having repented and God, by his grace, saved you the next thing that you, the saved person, should do is be baptized in water because of or for the reason of the remission of sins.

The Gift of the Holy Ghost is not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit but the baptism (the coming upon) of the Holy Spirit. (See Acts 1:8) This is the promise of the Father. (See Acts 1:4) You need to read more than one verse before you can say that a person needs to be baptized in water in order to be saved.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

dberrie2000

02-13-2015, 05:48 AM

Saxon--if repentance and water baptism was for the remission of sins--then you can't take the approach that salvation and the remission of sins happen at the same time, and believe those who were water baptized were already saved.

That dog just ain't gonna hunt.

You have thrown away the rest of the Bible that says that you are saved by grace and not of works (See Ephesians 2:8 and 9) so you can miss-construe Acts 2:38 and come up with the idea that Peter is saying that you have to be baptizes in order to have your sins remitted. What Peter is doing is giving and order of events.

So--Acts2:38 is an example of one being saved by works?

It's an example of God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him, IMO.

First, repent. Repentance requires faith. It is through man’s faith that the grace of God saves. Repenting is exercising faith in Christ and God saves those that place their faith in Christ. Having repented and God, by his grace, saved you the next thing that you, the saved person, should do is be baptized in water because of or for the reason of the remission of sins.

This seems to be the typical man-made doctrine that circumvents what the Biblical text really preaches--repentance and water baptism for the remission of sins:

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I understand your need to alter the scriptures in order that you may protect your theology--but that is called boundary maintenance.

The truth is--if what the Biblical record bears testimony to is true--then faith alone theology is false. But then--there is but one mention of "faith alone" found in the Bible:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

The Gift of the Holy Ghost is not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit but the baptism (the coming upon) of the Holy Spirit. (See Acts 1:8) This is the promise of the Father. (See Acts 1:4) You need to read more than one verse before you can say that a person needs to be baptized in water in order to be saved.

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Christian

02-15-2015, 08:36 AM

I agree with you, dberrie. The Bible verses on the subject seem fairly clear to me: If you want to be saved, there are steps you must take first, starting with having faith, and then repenting of sins, and then being baptized, which results in the remission of the sins you had committed, and then you receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, and then you keep taking additional steps on the path that eventually leads to eternal life if you stay on the path.

So it is up to YOU (while you are spiritually DEAD of course) to DO STUFF to get the free gift of eternal life, huh?

Your positionis self-contradictory. You cannot honestly repent unless you BELIEVE you should. You cannot 'decide' to 'have faith' either; faith comes by hearing the Word of God, not by what YOU DO.

It is NOT my own 'staying on the path' that saves me. It is JESUS CHRIST WHO saves me. HE does it, I don't.

Sorry phoenix but you and dberry are both on the wrong path. God doesn't need YOUR help to save you.

dberrie2000

02-15-2015, 12:48 PM

So it is up to YOU (while you are spiritually DEAD of course) to DO STUFF to get the free gift of eternal life, huh?

Your positionis self-contradictory. You cannot honestly repent unless you BELIEVE you should. You cannot 'decide' to 'have faith' either; faith comes by hearing the Word of God, not by what YOU DO.

It is NOT my own 'staying on the path' that saves me. It is JESUS CHRIST WHO saves me. HE does it, I don't.

The LDS would agree--it is Christ's grace that saves one.

That leaves but one question, IMO--who does Christ extend this salvational grace to?

If the scriptures are true--then it goes to them that obey God:

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

And is withheld from those who do not obey God:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Saxon

02-16-2015, 08:56 AM

So--Acts2:38 is an example of one being saved by works?

It's an example of God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him, IMO.

Do you ask this question, “So--Acts2:38 is an example of one being saved by works?” to display your desire to annoy or are you unable to comprehend the simplest statement? Read Ephesians 2:8 and 9 again and then explain to me how you can ask me this question when verse 9 is saying that it is NOT of works? You are not interested in the truth because you are convinced that Joseph Smith is correct in spite of that he totally ignores the Bible when it comes to the subject of salvation and many others.

Ephesians 2:9 says not of works. Romans 4:4 says to him that works the reward is not reckoned of grace, but of debt. Romans 11:6 says if by grace, then is it no more of works. You can’t have it both ways. If God saves by grace, and he does, (See Ephesians 2:8) there cannot be any works with it because grace is by itself. (See Romans 4:4 and Romans 11:6) If you are going to blatantly ignore the Bible, why do you even pretend that you hold it as one of your books?

If God, by your understanding, gives grace to those that obey him as a form of a work for salvation it will never happen. Again, the ones that are obedient are the ones that have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. Read from Luke 8:12 below to the end and see that all you need to do is believe and you will be saved. No works needed.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is p***ed from death unto life.

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

This seems to be the typical man-made doctrine that circumvents what the Biblical text really preaches--repentance and water baptism for the remission of sins:

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I understand your need to alter the scriptures in order that you may protect your theology--but that is called boundary maintenance.

The truth is--if what the Biblical record bears testimony to is true--then faith alone theology is false. But then--there is but one mention of "faith alone" found in the Bible:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

The Mormon teaching is what circumvents what the Biblical text really preaches, believe and be saved. You and the Mormon Church are altering scripture in order that you may protect your theology. There is no biblical connection to Mormon theology. You’re not reading scripture in a biblical context or as if it is true. You rely on warped teachings of the Mormon Church.

What part of “not of works” do you not understand???

Christian

02-16-2015, 09:28 AM

[QUOTE=dberrie2000;161562]The LDS would agree--it is Christ's grace that saves one.

That leaves but one question, IMO--who does Christ extend this salvational grace to?

That is easy. . .
Eph 1:3-6
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
NKJV

WE are not the ones who chose, GOD did it. WE are not the ones who 'decided' to DO stuff; GOD led us to do what we did.
NOT to 'get saved,' but BECAUSE GOD GAVE US THE FAITH THAT SAVED US, and because of that faith, we are water baptized and obey what Christ wants us to do.

You mormons are confused. You seem to think you must 'help your god' save you.

dberrie2000

02-17-2015, 06:09 AM

That is easy. . .

Eph 1:3-6
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
NKJV

WE are not the ones who chose, GOD did it.

What is your evidence that God does not choose according to His foreknowledge of who will obey Him?

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

WE are not the ones who 'decided' to DO stuff; GOD led us to do what we did.

Of course we are the ones who decide--that is what all will be judged in accordance with--our choices. Christ testified that all will be judged in accordance with works--AFTER DEATH--and that for life or ****ation:

John 5:28-29King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Matthew 16:27King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

God died for all men that they might have life:

Romans 5:18King James Version (KJV)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

dberrie2000

02-17-2015, 06:20 AM

NOT to 'get saved,' but BECAUSE GOD GAVE US THE FAITH THAT SAVED US,

Hi Christian::

Christ testified we are judged in accordance with what we do with the gifts we are given:

Matthew 25:14-30---King James Version (KJV)
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

A couple of points here, Christian:

1) Please notice they were "his own servants" to begin with--and later, because of their failure to magnify their gifts--were cast into outer darkness. Where does that leave once-saved-always-saved?

2) The Lord called those who magnified their gifts--"faithful" servants--connecting faith and works:

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

and because of that faith, we are water baptized and obey what Christ wants us to do.

You mormons are confused. You seem to think you must 'help your god' save you.[/COLOR]

Is this an example of those who "help your god save you"?

1 Timothy 4:16----King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

disciple

02-17-2015, 06:38 AM

What is your evidence that God does not choose according to His foreknowledge of who will obey Him?

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Of course we are the ones who decide--that is what all will be judged in accordance with--our choices. Christ testified that all will be judged in accordance with works--AFTER DEATH--and that for life or ****ation:

John 5:28-29King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Matthew 16:27King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

God died for all men that they might have life:

Romans 5:18King James Version (KJV)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

What about Paul, did saving grace come to Paul before he was obedient or only after?
“But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace.” Galatians 1:15
Ponder the conversion of Paul, the sovereignty of Christ, and what Paul’s sins have to do with your salvation. Paul said that God “set me apart before I was born,” and then on the Damascus road “called me by his grace”. This means that between Paul’s birth and his call on the Damascus road he was an already-chosen but not-yet-called instrument of God. Acts 9:15; 22:14 This means that Paul was beating and imprisoning and murdering Christians as a God-chosen, soon-to-be-made-Christian missionary.
“As I was on my way and drew near to Damascus, about noon a great light from heaven suddenly shone around me. And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” Acts 22:6–7
There was no denying or escaping it. God had chosen him for this before he was born. And now he would take him. The word of Christ was sovereign. There was no negotiating. “Rise, and go into Damascus, and there you will be told all that is appointed for you to do.” Acts 22:10
Damascus was not Paul’s final, free will yielding to Christ after decades of futile divine effort to save him. God had a time for choosing him (before he was born) and a time for calling him (on the Damascus road). Paul yielded when God called.
Therefore, the sins that God permitted between Paul’s birth and his calling were part of the plan, since God could have done Damascus sooner. Do we have any idea what the plan for those sins might have been? Yes. They were permitted for you and me — for all who fear that they might have sinned themselves out of grace. Here’s the way Paul relates his sins to you.
“Formerly I was a blasphemer, persecutor, and insolent opponent. But I received mercy . . . for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life.”
1 Timothy 1:13, 16

theway

02-17-2015, 02:31 PM

WE are not the ones who chose, GOD did it. WE are not the ones who 'decided' to DO stuff; GOD led us to do what we did.
NOT to 'get saved,' but BECAUSE GOD GAVE US THE FAITH THAT SAVED US, and because of that faith, we are water baptized and obey what Christ wants us to do.

You mormons are confused. You seem to think you must 'help your god' save you.So then are you trying to say that God only saves the ones He wants to save?

theway

02-17-2015, 02:59 PM

What about Paul, did saving grace come to Paul before he was obedient or only after?After!

You might not of noticed because you cut your quoting of Acts 22 a little short.

Paul had to be obedient in following the instructions given him, be baptized so that his sins could be forgiven, and call upon the name of The Lord.

Now unless you are still trying to say that Paul was saved without having obtained forgiveness of his sins then I think it is obvious that he was not yet saved.

Saxon

02-17-2015, 03:37 PM

theway

02-17-2015, 06:41 PM

Knowing your position on works and salvation, I must repeat that the works t are a result of faith; faith without works is dead. You cannot do anything for salvation except obey God by believing in the Lord Jesus Christ.But therein is your paradox... You stated that forgiveness of sins and salvation happen at the same time. So unless you believe that a person can be saved without Faith, then you must believe that Faith, forgiveness, and salvation happen at the same time. And if you believe that then you must believe that a person can be saved with a dead faith, unless you believe that works happens at the same time as well. If everything happens at the same time... Then that means that works (including baptism) either done before salvation, OR AFTER SALVATION, is therefore meaningless.

There is no way to help God save you so the answer is no. The text is written to a saved person. The instructions are to continue in sound doctrine so you will not be led astray and become lost again.Become lost how? Do you believe that one can lose their salvation?

Saxon

02-17-2015, 09:33 PM

But therein is your paradox... You stated that forgiveness of sins and salvation happen at the same time. So unless you believe that a person can be saved without Faith, then you must believe that Faith, forgiveness, and salvation happen at the same time. And if you believe that then you must believe that a person can be saved with a dead faith, unless you believe that works happens at the same time as well. If everything happens at the same time... Then that means that works (including baptism) either done before salvation, OR AFTER SALVATION, is therefore meaningless.

You too read without paying attention to what I have claimed to believe. I do not claim that a person can be saved without faith. Ephesians 2:8 states it quite clearly that we are saved by grace through faith. Faith is a required part of salvation. Faith forgiveness and salvation do happen at the same time.

You are very persistent in twisting the scriptures to make it seem to say what you want. Did Paul write Ephesians 2:8 saying that it is through dead faith that the grace of God moves? It is a definite NO. You, however, wish to make it seem that Ephesians 2:8 is referring to a dead faith. There is nothing in the text to even make a child think that Paul is referring to a dead faith. You need to put some honest thought into your postings. You are dealing with the Word of God and it isn’t a game.

All the works that a Christian does has its purpose and meaning and that too is not to be trifled with. Whatever we do in this life will be accounted for weather good or evil so it is best to deal with this with a strong sense of respect for the word that you are discussing. What you believe is you privilege and I do respect that you believe what you believe weather I agree or not. But if you want to carry on with a conversation with me I would suggest that you pay attention to what I say so you don’t ask ridicules questions or make obvious unfounded statements regarding what I “have to believe” because you can’t keep in mind what I have already said.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Become lost how? Do you believe that one can lose their salvation?

I do not believe in Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS). I have yet to see any scripture in the Bible that holds any support for that supposed doctrine.

Christian

02-18-2015, 07:54 AM

dberrie posted:
What is your evidence that God does not choose according to His foreknowledge of who will obey Him?

Rom 9:19-24
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
NKJV

God made some of us for honor, others for dishonor. He did not just 'allow' us to be one or the other, or just say "I guess that one will do so-and-so anyway, so I might as well. . .

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

CHRISTIANS obey Jesus' commands. Mormons obey the manmade commands of joe smith & company instead.

Of course we are the ones who decide--that is what all will be judged in accordance with--our choices. Christ testified that all will be judged in accordance with works--AFTER DEATH--and that for life or ****ation:

John 5:28-29King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

And HOW is that calculated? Oh yes, FAITH is counted as righteousness to us CHRISTIANS, SIN is no longer counted against us.

Rom 4:5-8
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin."
NKJV

Matthew 16:27King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Rewards for works, not the free gift of eternal life. Rewards are wages, not salvation. The mormon religion doesn't seem to understand that.

God died for all men that they might have life:

Romans 5:18King James Version (KJV)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

So you thnk anti-Christians such as the mormons will be saved? Are you claiming to be a UNIVERSALIST now, pretending that this p***age says that Jesus lied when He said
John 14:6
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
NKJV

Sorry berry, but when quoting scripture you must do so IN THE CONTEXT OF THE WHOLE BIBLE.

And if you are one of those badly mistaught mormons, you can't do that.

1 Cor 2:14
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
NKJV

Christian

02-18-2015, 10:33 AM

dberrie2000

02-19-2015, 04:48 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post--What is your evidence that God does not choose according to His foreknowledge of who will obey Him?

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9-King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Of course we are the ones who decide--that is what all will be judged in accordance with--our choices. Christ testified that all will be judged in accordance with works--AFTER DEATH--and that for life or ****ation:

John 5:28-29King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Matthew 16:27King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

God died for all men that they might have life:

Romans 5:18King James Version (KJV)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

What about Paul, did saving grace come to Paul before he was obedient or only after?

Both. The Atonement was for all men--and allowed all men the opportunity to inherit eternal life--by removing the condemnation brought upon all men due to the Fall--and the Resurrection. Christ conquered death and hell for all men--as an automatic consequence due to the Fall. Free gift to all men.

But the Atonement did not forgive anyone's sins--it only allowed for sins to be remitted--through repentance and water baptism:

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Yes--Paul received of God's salvational grace after he obeyed:

Acts 22:16--King James Version (KJV)
16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

“But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace.” Galatians 1:15
Ponder the conversion of Paul, the sovereignty of Christ, and what Paul’s sins have to do with your salvation. Paul said that God “set me apart before I was born,” and then on the Damascus road “called me by his grace”. This means that between Paul’s birth and his call on the Damascus road he was an already-chosen but not-yet-called instrument of God. Acts 9:15; 22:14 This means that Paul was beating and imprisoning and murdering Christians as a God-chosen, soon-to-be-made-Christian missionary.

How does that negate the fact the scriptures have Paul receiving of God's salvational grace through his obedience to God--or that the scriptures show God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

dberrie2000

02-19-2015, 05:07 AM

You were quoting Christian, not me (Saxon). I agree that Christians will be judged In Accordance With (IAW) what we do with the gifts we are given. 1 Corinthians 3:10 to 15 also confirms this.

Consider 1 Corinthians 3:15, this also confirms that works have nothing to do with salvation.

Hi Saxon.

Care to explain how all will be judged according to their works--AFTER death--and that for life or ****ation--and works play no part in salvation?

John 5:28-29--King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

All the works are burned up but yet the person is still saved.

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1 Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1 Corinthians 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Which means he will be saved through the resurrection of all men, as to the spirit--but not unto eternal life. As Paul stated, if we follow that story:

1 Corinthians 5:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1 Corinthians 5:13---King James Version (KJV)
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10---King James Version (KJV)
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Saxon--Paul was not saying that fornicator would receive eternal life--but that his spirit would be saved--as all spirits will, through the resurrection. But not unto eternal life. Paul emphasized all men will be judged according to works--and listed the works that will condemn mankind:

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Galatians 6:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

dberrie2000

02-19-2015, 05:09 AM

You too read without paying attention to what I have claimed to believe. I do not claim that a person can be saved without faith. Ephesians 2:8 states it quite clearly that we are saved by grace through faith. Faith is a required part of salvation.

Is that a faith with--or without--works?

James 2:26King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

dberrie2000

02-19-2015, 05:14 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostWhat is your evidence that God does not choose according to His foreknowledge of who will obey Him?

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Of course we are the ones who decide--that is what all will be judged in accordance with--our choices. Christ testified that all will be judged in accordance with works--AFTER DEATH--and that for life or ****ation:

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

And HOW is that calculated? Oh yes, FAITH is counted as righteousness to us CHRISTIANS,

But that just connects faith and works together:

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

theway

02-19-2015, 02:40 PM

You too read without paying attention to what I have claimed to believe. I do not claim that a person can be saved without faith. Ephesians 2:8 states it quite clearly that we are saved by grace through faith. Faith is a required part of salvation. Faith forgiveness and salvation do happen at the same time.Once again, there is the contradiction, If you believe Faith, forgiveness and salvation happen at the same time, and you believe that works are a requirement of salvation... Then the works required for salvation would have had to have happened at the same time as well... NOT AFTER.
This idea then that we must do works after we are saved is a contradiction to a true faith alone believer.
Even this idea that God is the one who gives you all your Faith, and then forgiveness and salvation, in which happens at the same time, is a modern invention made to try and cover the paradoxical holes in the Faith alone theory.

You are very persistent in twisting the scriptures to make it seem to say what you want.
Now that would be quite an accomplishment since I never posted any scripture... I have only shown by simply logic how your version of Faith alone is untenable, paradoxical and contradictory. The fact that it is also unbiblical.... I'll leave to another day.

I do not believe in Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS). I have yet to see any scripture in the Bible that holds any support for that supposed doctrine.But that's just it... Faith alone does not work without OSAS, because if a person can lose their faith based on something they did or didn't do, then one's salvation is dependent on works. Whether those works happen before, at the same time, or after, is irrelevant.

This is why TULIP was invented. The Faith alone lie will not work by itself; like any lie they had to invent other lies in order to try and fix the first lie. The problem is that when you take all the tenets of TULIP together it produces a doctrine which closer resembles Satan's game plan than God's. However, if you take away one aspect of TULIP, the whole house of cards comes down and the contradictions and paradoxes become evident.

Phoenix

02-19-2015, 04:28 PM

So according to YOU YOU decide which path to take, YOU decide to have faith, YOU decide to repent, YOU decide you should be baptized. . .THEN GOD CAN FORGIVE YOUR SINS?
That's not just according to me, it's according to the Bible.
"Choose this day whom you will serve..." etc.

Did I get that right . . .from YOU?
Yes, I think you summarized my position accurately. Do you have any questions about it?

Christian

02-20-2015, 11:07 AM

phoenix posed:

Originally Posted by Christian
So according to YOU YOU decide which path to take, YOU decide to have faith, YOU decide to repent, YOU decide you should be baptized. . .THEN GOD CAN FORGIVE YOUR SINS?
[/quote]

That's not just according to me, it's according to the Bible.
"Choose this day whom you will serve..." etc.

ONLY if you RIP your partial sentences or phrases OUT OF CONTEXT.

The Bible ALSO says:

1 Cor 2:14-15
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
NKJV

YOU cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God because they are FOOLISHNESS TO YOU, NOR CAN YOU KNOW THEM. . .

Spiritually dead folks (the UNSAVED such as YOU?) cannot 'decide' to do those things since the dead folks cannot understand or receive the things of God. . .UNLESS HE GIVES THEM TO YOU. Apparently he has not done that yet.

Yes, I think you summarized my position accurately. Do you have any questions about it?

None at all. You are spiritually dead, but you THINK you are alive and well; yes I do understand your position. I was once the same way, but JESUS SAVED ME. I pray He will someday save you as well.

Saxon

02-20-2015, 09:29 PM

Is that a faith with--or without--works?

James 2:26King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

That depends if you are looking for works that will complement faith or if you are looking for works that supposedly compliment salvation.

Faith that has no complementary works is dead. There is no works to complement salvation. (See Ephesians 2:9) Again I will ask you, what part of "NOT of works" do you not understand????

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Saxon

02-20-2015, 09:59 PM

Once again, there is the contradiction, If you believe Faith, forgiveness and salvation happen at the same time, and you believe that works are a requirement of salvation... Then the works required for salvation would have had to have happened at the same time as well... NOT AFTER.

I do not believe that works are required for salvation!! What part of "NOT of works" do you not understand???? (See Ephesians 2:9)

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

This idea then that we must do works after we are saved is a contradiction to a true faith alone believer.
Even this idea that God is the one who gives you all your Faith, and then forgiveness and salvation, in which happens at the same time, is a modern invention made to try and cover the paradoxical holes in the Faith alone theory.

Seeing that you have no concept of what “faith alone” means I fail to see how you can see a contradiction when there is none. Faith alone, not of works is as old as the scriptures of the Bible. Ephesians 2:10 tells us that we, the saved, being in context with verses 8 and 9, are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works. Created in Christ Jesus is at the moment of salvation and unto good works means that the one that has become a Christian is to do good works. You are the one that is in error because you do not believe the Bible.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Now that would be quite an accomplishment since I never posted any scripture... I have only shown by simply logic how your version of Faith alone is untenable, paradoxical and contradictory. The fact that it is also unbiblical.... I'll leave to another day.

Your comments on scripture are just as twisting as if you actually quoted scripture. If you don’t quote scripture, how can you prove Faith alone is untenable, paradoxical and contradictory? The Bible is the only truth of God, the very word of God.

But that's just it... Faith alone does not work without OSAS, because if a person can lose their faith based on something they did or didn't do, then one's salvation is dependent on works. Whether those works happen before, at the same time, or after, is irrelevant.

This is why TULIP was invented. The Faith alone lie will not work by itself; like any lie they had to invent other lies in order to try and fix the first lie. The problem is that when you take all the tenets of TULIP together it produces a doctrine which closer resembles Satan's game plan than God's. However, if you take away one aspect of TULIP, the whole house of cards comes down and the contradictions and paradoxes become evident.

Again, you have no concept of what “faith alone” means. Faith alone works extremely well without OSAS. TULIP, as far as I am concerned, is a man-made theory that has no part in the Bible what so ever.

Your concept of what the Bible teaches is ridiculous from my point of view.

alanmolstad

02-20-2015, 10:20 PM

I do not believe that works are required for salvation!! What part of "NOT of works" do you not understand???? (See Ephesians 2:9)

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Seeing that you have no concept of what “faith alone” means I fail to see how you can see a contradiction when there is none. Faith alone, not of works is as old as the scriptures of the Bible. Ephesians 2:10 tells us that we, the saved, being in context with verses 8 and 9, are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works. Created in Christ Jesus is at the moment of salvation and unto good works means that the one that has become a Christian is to do good works. You are the one that is in error because you do not believe the Bible.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Your comments on scripture are just as twisting as if you actually quoted scripture. If you don’t quote scripture, how can you prove Faith alone is untenable, paradoxical and contradictory? The Bible is the only truth of God, the very word of God.

Again, you have no concept of what “faith alone” means. Faith alone works extremely well without OSAS. TULIP, as far as I am concerned, is a man-made theory that has no part in the Bible what so ever.

Your concept of what the Bible teaches is ridiculous from my point of view.

Mormons have no works.
their faith is alone...and so it is dead.

Saxon

02-20-2015, 10:56 PM

Hi Saxon.

Care to explain how all will be judged according to their works--AFTER death--and that for life or ****ation--and works play no part in salvation?

John 5:28-29--King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

The Bible speaks of two resurrection, the resurrection of life, and the resurrection of ****ation. (See John 5:28-29) these are the resurrection of the saved and the lost. They take place at different times.

The resurrection of life or the “first resurrection” is the resurrection of all the saved. The saved have no sins counted to them and the works that they will be judged for are the good works that the saved are to do in the life before the resurrection. The judgment is to see what “sort” it is, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble. The gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble represent what the believer’s at***ude was when the works were done. The gold, silver, precious stones represent a good at***ude that reflected the glory of God and the wood, hay, stubble represent a bad at***ude that the believer was seeking glory for himself. 1 Corinthians 3:15 confirms that works has nothing to do with salvation as it states that if any man’s works are burned he will still be saved.

The resurrection of ****ation, or the “second resurrection” is the resurrection of the lost. These people are to be judged for sin and sinful works. (See Revelation 20:11 to 13)

1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1 Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1 Corinthians 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Which means he will be saved through the resurrection of all men, as to the spirit--but not unto eternal life. As Paul stated, if we follow that story:

1 Corinthians 5:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1 Corinthians 5:13---King James Version (KJV)
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10---King James Version (KJV)
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Your quote of scripture is dividing the saved from the lost. Either you are saved and have a part in the first resurrection or you are lost and have part of the second resurrection. There is no other forms of more or lesser salvation. There is no support for you interpretation of 1 Corinthians 5:5. You are in error.

Saxon--Paul was not saying that fornicator would receive eternal life--but that his spirit would be saved--as all spirits will, through the resurrection. But not unto eternal life. Paul emphasized all men will be judged according to works--and listed the works that will condemn mankind:

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Galatians 6:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Show me from the Bible where all spirits will, through the resurrection, be saved. If a person does not receive eternal life then all that person has to look to is the lake of fire. There are no other options.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Phoenix

02-23-2015, 08:43 PM

ONLY if you RIP your partial sentences or phrases OUT OF CONTEXT.
What kind of "context" do you plan to invent, that would make the exhortation to choose, a NON-choice?

The Bible ALSO says:[/COLOR]
1 Cor 2:14-15
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
NKJV
So? And? How does your cherry-picked proof text support your false belief that God isn't able to give people the ability to make choices?

YOU cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God because they are FOOLISHNESS TO YOU, NOR CAN YOU KNOW THEM. . .
Seems like you are the one mocking the truth about your God-given ability to choose, and calling that truth foolishness.

You are spiritually dead, but you THINK you are alive and well;
I think you are spiritually dead, to the point that you have chosen to not even realize and appreciate the great gift that God has given you: the ability to make choices, either good or bad ones, which will ultimately determine where you will end up. Such an obvious, sensible, rational concept is foolishness to you because you have chosen to remain spiritually dead. You don't want to wake up and smell the roses.

I pray that you will decide to choose to accept correct doctrines.

Christian

02-24-2015, 08:48 AM

phoenix posted:

What kind of "context" do you plan to invent, that would make the exhortation to choose, a NON-choice?
So? And? How does your cherry-picked proof text support your false belief that God isn't able to give people the ability to make choices?
Seems like you are the one mocking the truth about your God-given ability to choose, and calling that truth foolishness.

God does indeed allow people to make SOME choices. You are NOT 'free' to choose God; HE CHOSE WHO WOULD BE HIS OWN PEOPLE BEFORE THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLDS.

Eph 1:3-12
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth — in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
NKJV

You do not on your own have the ability to 'choose' to come to God or NOT to 'choose' to come to God. HE chose. Before the beginning of the world.
John 14:6
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
NKJV

John 6:65
65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
NKJV

Jesus said NO ONE CAN come to Him unless it was granted to him by His Father. You are NOT 'free' to do so on your own.

I think you are spiritually dead, to the point that you have chosen to not even realize and appreciate the great gift that God has given you: the ability to make choices, either good or bad ones, which will ultimately determine where you will end up.

You are free to believe in the easter bunny too. But you ARE NOT FREE to have faith in Jesus Christ UNLESS it has been granted to you by the Father.

Since Jesus said NOBODY can come to the Father EXCEPT through HimSuch an obvious, sensible, rational concept is foolishness to you because you have chosen to remain spiritually dead. You don't want to wake up and smell the roses.

I received Jesus Christ as my Savior and Lord over 42 years ago. YOUR irrational and ignorant 'judgement' of me is merely irrational and ignorant. You may believe in santa clause, the easter bunny, and 'free will' to choose God or NOT to choose God, but Jesus has said otherwise (see the p***ages above).

You should study your Bible and learn of God.

I pray that you will decide to choose to accept correct doctrines.

If you think you can find any 'incorrect' doctrines I believe, or any 'correct' doctrines I don't believe, then SHOW US SCRIPTURE that says so.

Personally, I don't believe you can.

Phoenix

02-24-2015, 08:45 PM

God does indeed allow people to make SOME choices. You are NOT 'free' to choose God;
If God is unable, or unwilling, to allow some people to choose Him, then you're accusing Jesus of lying when He said that it's God's will that ALL people come to Him. Plus, you're accusing the Bible of lying where it says that Jesus atoned for the sins of all people. You're saying that He only died for those who He chose to die for--those who He chose to "allow" to follow Him.
Which really means that you're saying that Jesus doesn't love all people, since if He loved us all, He would have died for us all and would have allowed ALL of us the ability to choose Him.

Perhaps the idea that Jesus loves all of us, and therefore died for all of us, and therefore gives all of us the ability to choose Him or to reject Him--perhaps such ideas are foolishness to you. Maybe you are too spiritually dead to realize that these ideas aren't foolishness at all.

alanmolstad

02-25-2015, 04:53 AM

How it works is like this:

The blood of Christ is sufficient to save every person on earth.

The blood of Christ is efficient in saving they who believe.

alanmolstad

02-25-2015, 05:32 AM

you see you can look at this issue from 2different points of view.
God's point of view
Our point of view.

Both points of view are correct, but they are in conflict too.

Its just like the situation with the Pro-Calvin and Anti-Calvin question.

Both the Pro and Anti, Calvin positions have good support in the bible, both are correct, yet both fall short too.

God simply decided before the world began that I would be with him in glory....
Not just guys like me...not just people that one day happen to believe, but me by name.
Me as an individual.

Nothing was left in doubt
There was a 100% ***urance that I would be with the Lord in Glory.
Nothing was left to chance.

and yet at the same time.....

I was totally lost until I believed.
I had to both hear the calling of God, and respond.
I had to confess my sins to be forgiven.
Before I confessed I was lost and doomed.

This is what Walter martin talked about in the recording I have posted on this forum many times.
There is a clear contradiction in the text...and Walter talks about how to resolve that contradiction.....

ready to hear how to do it?

You cant.

There is no way to resolve it.

alanmolstad

02-25-2015, 06:05 AM

theway

02-25-2015, 11:00 AM

So what we have then are two totally different factors to deal with as we address this question of salvation.

We have human free will.
We have God's sovereignty.

Now people can go nuts attempting to figure out how one can work with the other, and the truth is that its an unanswerable question as to the "how?"

What I have done in the past on this forum is to show people how I teach this is all kinda like the situation of being a p***inger on a large boat.
As a p***enger you have the limited freedom (free will) that is granted you by the ship's Skipper (The Lord).

With your freedoms you can walk around the deck of the boat to the left or to the right.
it does not matter...

Your freedom to choose for yourself does not at all change the overriding authority of the Skipper to control the true direction of the ship.

So you have what seems like a conflict,(your freedom and the Skipper's authority) working with each other, without getting in each other's way.
And in a small way this is kinda like the way our Human free will is able to work without problems with God's authority.

And as always I have shown how your ship ****ogy is nonsensical.
First, you never stated what the destination of the ship was??? If the destination is Heaven, then you would have everybody headed to the same place???? In your ****ogy and belief there would have to be two ships... Each with a different Skipper heading in opposite directions. Each Skipper would be telling its p***engers the same thing however, "You have freedom to sin all you want or do whatever you want because the ship's course will not change and you will end up at your destination regardless."
Second, if there is only one ship then the destination does not matter, nor would it matter if the ship just simply sat still. In essence, if I do not have the freedom to jump ship, then it is nothing more than a prison barge with the same instructions given to all inmates; that I can sin as much as I want on board the ship, but my destination once I get off the ship will not change. In other words, salvation will be forced on some against their will, and ****ation will come to others because God willed it so without any rhyme or reason to it.
Third.... Well there's no need for a third right now, because the first two observations makes your scenario or ****ogy so ridiculous there's no need to beat a dead dog which couldn't hunt anyway even when it was alive.

Now I know you are going to read this even though you said you won't, and yet not respond. But that will not matter to me, because this way you can not back-track and try to weasel out once again, yet your ridiculous ****ogy stands as a testament to the nonsense which is Faith alone and your understanding of predestination which goes with that belief.

From God's POV, what clearly seems like an unanswerable conflict is somehow not a problem with God.

But if we look at the issue from our point of view its always going to be a conflict.God is not a God of confusion. Sometimes things seem to conflict and make no sense, because in reality they do conflict and are hence nonsensical.
Simply saying "it is a mystery" does not solve your paradoxes.

dberrie2000

02-25-2015, 11:37 AM

God does indeed allow people to make SOME choices. You are NOT 'free' to choose God;

Could you explain for us what prevents anyone from choosing God?

HE CHOSE WHO WOULD BE HIS OWN PEOPLE BEFORE THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLDS.

Obviously--since God died for all men--then all men can choose God.

2 Peter 3:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

alanmolstad

02-25-2015, 11:49 AM

[QUOTE=dberrie2000;161705]Could you explain for us what prevents anyone from choosing

They believe Joe smith's lies

Even when the bible warned people what Satan will do...people still fall for the lie.

theway

02-25-2015, 12:06 PM

They believe Joe smith's liesWhy on earth would anyone knowingly choose a lie?
You are not making any sense yet again.

Phoenix

02-25-2015, 03:57 PM

As a p***enger you have the limited freedom (free will) that is granted you by the ship's Skipper (The Lord).With your freedoms you can walk around the deck of the boat to the left or to the right.
it does not matter...Your freedom to choose for yourself does not at all change the overriding authority of the Skipper to control the true direction of the ship. So you have what seems like a conflict,(your freedom and the Skipper's authority) working with each other, without getting in each other's way...

So you believe that we're all on a ship that God is sailing to hell, and there's nothing any of us can do to go any other place because God won't allow it?

alanmolstad

02-25-2015, 05:13 PM

You mix your point of view.

Try again

theway

02-25-2015, 05:46 PM

You mix your point of view.

Try againHe saw the same problem I noted. The fault in not in everybody's perception or point of view; the problem is that your "Prison Ship to Hell" story is badly thought out, and only confuses the issue more.

Try again, only this time with a theology which actually works.

alanmolstad

02-25-2015, 08:36 PM

dberrie2000

02-26-2015, 05:37 AM

Originally Posted by Christian View PostGod does indeed allow people to make SOME choices. You are NOT 'free' to choose God;

Could you explain for us what prevents anyone from choosing God?

They believe Joe smith's ...

But that is still a choice.

Again--what prevents people from choosing God?

2 Peter 3:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Christ died for all men:

1 John 2:2--King James Version (KJV)
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world

dberrie2000

02-26-2015, 05:42 AM

you see you can look at this issue from 2different points of view.
God's point of view
Our point of view.

Both points of view are correct, but they are in conflict too.

Its just like the situation with the Pro-Calvin and Anti-Calvin question.

Both the Pro and Anti, Calvin positions have good support in the bible, both are correct, yet both fall short too.

God simply decided before the world began that I would be with him in glory....
Not just guys like me...not just people that one day happen to believe, but me by name.
Me as an individual.

Nothing was left in doubt
There was a 100% ***urance that I would be with the Lord in Glory.
Nothing was left to chance.

What is certain is the truthfulness of Christ's testimony--that all will be judged according to works--and that for life or ****ation:

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Anyone who preaches there are no acts of obedience to God required for His grace unto life is teaching the greatest lie satan ever pawned upon mankind:

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

alanmolstad

02-26-2015, 07:55 AM

But that is still a choice.

Again--what prevents people from choosing God?

oh they choose.....
God's gift to man of our free will allows us to make decisions...and people that join CULTS have made this mistake all on their own....only themselves to blame for it.

what stops them from believing in the true God of the Bible is that they have made the bad decision to believe in a false god rather than the true God.
That stopped them and turned their walk down the darkened path to destruction and death.

theway

02-26-2015, 08:07 AM

God does indeed allow people to make SOME choices. You are NOT 'free' to choose God;Seems you actually need to read the verse that was referenced before making such a false statement...
Joshua 24:15
"If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

In any case, you don't even have a horse in this race. You have already stated that nothing i do will change whether God will save me or not. If you actually believe that, then the fact that I am Mormon and do not believe your opinions to be Biblical, from your viewpoint will not be the deciding factor to whether God will save me or not.
In fact, to a true Faith Alone believer there can be no criteria, even to God, in deciding who will be saved. Because either it will make God a respecter of persons and unjust, or a lier.

That is just one of the many contradictions and paradoxes of Faith Alone.

Christian

02-26-2015, 08:29 AM

tway posted:
Seems you actually need to read the verse that was referenced before making such a false statement...
Joshua 24:15
"If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

Perhaps you didn't READ the p***age I quoted:
John 6:65
65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
NASU

BTW, Joshua was already one of God's chosen people when he said that, wasn't he? And IF it had been granted to a person, he could choose God, couldn't he? And if it was NOT GRANTED to him, he could/would NOT have chosen to serve God, would he?

No conflict here at all.

In any case, you don't even have a horse in this race. You have already stated that nothing i do will change whether God will save me or not. If you actually believe that, then the fact that I am Mormon and do not believe your opinions to be Biblical, from your viewpoint will not be the deciding factor to whether God will save me or not.

I would not presume to know whether God has chosen you or not. HE CHOSE US CHRISTIANS before the worlds began. WE did not choose Him. HE CHOSE US, and led us to FAITH IN HIM.

Eph 1:3-4
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.
NASU

So you may ooze sarcasm all you wish, but you cannot change God. HE chose to give life to spiritually dead people.

Those who are dead CANNOT chose God.

So WHO CARES whether you believe ME or not. Whether you believe GOD is what will lead you to Him. IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE HIM, you will go to Hell. HE will either lead you to Himself. . .or not.

It is up to God, not to you.

Rom 9:19-24
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
NKJV

WHO do you think is the Potter here? WHO do you think is the clay? WHO are made for HONOR? WHO are made for dishoner?

And do the dishonorable pots 'FREELY CHOOSE' to have been made that way?

In fact, to a true Faith Alone believer there can be no criteria, even to God, in deciding who will be saved. Because either it will make God a respecter of persons and unjust, or a lier.

There you go SPECULATING WILDLY again.

That is just one of the many contradictions and paradoxes of Faith Alone.

Just because you don't understand the SCRIPTURES about faith in Jesus Christ ALONE saving us does not make the scriptures 'contradictory' or 'paradoxical' either. All it does is show your own ignorance about the SCRIPTURES.

dberrie2000

02-26-2015, 09:13 AM

oh they choose.....
God's gift to man of our free will allows us to make decisions...and people that join CULTS have made this mistake all on their own....only themselves to blame for it.

what stops them from believing in the true God of the Bible is that they have made the bad decision to believe in a false god rather than the true God.
That stopped them and turned their walk down the darkened path to destruction and death.

How does your take on what you believe about the LDS somehow mean people can't choose God?

alanmolstad

02-26-2015, 10:00 AM

How does your take on what you believe about the LDS somehow mean people can't choose God?
Its like what Jesus said, "Depart from me, I never knew you"

thats the answer when people ask me, "What happens to Mormons when they die?"....

Well there you go.

theway

02-26-2015, 02:41 PM

Perhaps you didn't READ the p***age I quoted:
John 6:65
65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
I did read it... However because I had the extra advantage of reading the entire chapter, I was not fooled into believing that this verse says anything about predestination as you believe it, but in context it says the exact opposite of what you want it to say.
If you read more than just the cookie-cut verse which you think supports you, you will see that there were a lot of people being "drawn" to Christ. Yet Christ perceived that most of them were only there for the free dinner and a show (loafs and fishes, and the miracles). Christ then pointed out that they were drawn for their own reasons, but the true believers will be the ones drawn by the teaching of His Father, as even Christ was not here to do his own will, but the will of His Father. Therefore they must be drawn by the Father.
And how are are they drawn by The Father? Well, verse 45 tells us: "....'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me".
Note that the verse says that it is by the individuals choice to learn from the spirit and not by signs, these are the ones which the Father will draw to Christ. And this choice is open to "ANYONE".

NASU

BTW, Joshua was already one of God's chosen people when he said that, wasn't he? And IF it had been granted to a person, he could choose God, couldn't he? And if it was NOT GRANTED to him, he could/would NOT have chosen to serve God, would he?

No conflict here at all.LOL.... not so much of a conflict, as it is straight out silly nonsense.
You are saying that the only ones who can make a choice, are the ones who are not free to choose???

I would not presume to know whether God has chosen you or not.
Then why do you run around claiming that I or anybody else needs to be saved? For all you know I and everyone else could already be saved. And what's more, all of your ranting and all a person's sinning or beliefs, will not change that. In other words, I don't have to believe in Christ to be saved because I am already saved. You simply shot your own argument in the foot here.

So WHO CARES whether you believe ME or not. Whether you believe GOD is what will lead you to Him. IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE HIM, you will go to Hell. HE will either lead you to Himself. . .or not.
I can't understand why you are not able to see the contradiction within this short statement of yours???
You stated that it is impossible for the spiritually dead to know or believe in Christ, yet then you say that unless I do believe and know Him that I will be going to Hell....
This is what is called a paradox... Faith Alone theology are full of them.

Just because you don't understand the SCRIPTURES about faith in Jesus Christ ALONE saving us does not make the scriptures 'contradictory' or 'paradoxical' either. All it does is show your own ignorance about the SCRIPTURES.Then help me out!
Seeing as though you claim to be enlightened, then this question should be easy...

What criteria does God use to decide who will be saved and who will not?

Saxon

02-27-2015, 03:19 PM

They don't know it is a lie. It is called deception.

alanmolstad

02-27-2015, 03:55 PM

They don't know it is a lie. It is called deception.
I once was helping a mother and father deal with a child that had been sucked in the the world of the CULTS (JW)

As I was teaching the parents the different teachings of the CULT they turned to me and asked if perhaps the members and leadership of the different CULTS might actually know that they teach error?

They asked this question because many of the non-Christian CULTS like the Mormons and JWs teach such silly and foolish ideas that it seems hard for Christians to believe that the people in the CULT cant see the CULT for what it is?

"Cant they see its all a lie?

"Deep down they must know its all just made up by men like Russel or Smith, right?"

But I told the parents that as far as I know, members of a CULT are completely and fully deceived.
They dont have even a hint they they understand all that they believe is in error.
They are blinded....blinded by their faith in a false Christ.

They have great faith, but their faith is in their believing in the false Christ promoted by the CULT.

This is also why the members of a CULT like the JWs or Mormons have a "dead faith"
For Christ said there was but one "work" that God is looking for, and that work is to believe in his Son.
Members of a CULT do not believe in the true Jesus.
Therefore they lack the work that Christ was talking about that is key.

Mormons have no works so their faith is "dead"

For the Bible says that "Faith without works is Dead!"

Mormons might have great faith, but its a dead faith.

Saxon

02-27-2015, 04:12 PM

Eph 1:3-4
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.
NASU

Look at what you have quoted to prove that you were chosen. From what I can gather from what I have read from you, it seems that you think that you were chosen personally to be saved before the foundation of the world. This could not be farther from the truth. What God actually chose In Accordance With (IAW) your quote is those that would be “in Christ” and “us in him”. He didn't say that you, personally, would be saved, but those that would be in Christ. No one is in Christ until they are saved in time.

dberrie2000

02-28-2015, 06:15 AM

For the Bible says that "Faith without works is Dead!"

Then why do the faith alone preach a salvation through a faith without works?

alanmolstad

02-28-2015, 07:02 AM

Then why do the faith alone preach a salvation through a faith without works?

Let us go to the video tape!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gufxYe1OhWs

In the above video,use your computer's mouse and drag and click to get to the 1:28:00 point.
(This is very near the end of the video)

Have a listen....
It took me a while to track down this recording, and it also took a while to find the part that I had heard before on it so as to be able to point you to the relevant part.

I will be glad to write to you after on the whole "problem" that some in the CULTS have when they hear Christians like myself and Walter Martin teach we are "Saved by Grace alone, though faith"

The "problem" is that when people in CULTS hear us preach that message from the Lord, they get it messed-up and for some reason only seem to hear, "Saved by faith alone"

Now what I was saying in post #68 above is that Mormons, (and the JWs too for that matter) have a "dead faith" because while they have a huge faith in their teachings, they lack any works to show that they faith is not a moot point.

The Lord says that thee work of the Lord is to believe in His Son.

The Mormons lack this one key work, as they believe in a false Jesus invented by their leadership.
Lacking this single key work, they have nothing to show for their faith....so their faith is dead.

This Mormon dead faith means that they are still in their sins,
For the bible teaches that faith without works is dead...

dberrie2000

02-28-2015, 05:29 PM

The "problem" is that when people in CULTS hear us preach that message from the Lord, they get it messed-up and for some reason only seem to hear, "Saved by faith alone"

Could it be because the faith alone have a post and pillar sola fide(faith alone) doctrine?

Because they preach one is saved independent of any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ?

1 Peter 4:17-18---King James Version (KJV)
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

alanmolstad

02-28-2015, 08:26 PM

Could it be because the faith alone
I think what it is , is that when I say, "Saved by Grace alone, though faith", what you hear is "Saved by Faith alone no works"

you want me to say that so much that you may actually hear that...

alanmolstad

02-28-2015, 08:29 PM

and if this is true...then this does point out to us Christians the one thing we may have suspected for a while..."People in CULTS are crazy"

They hear things that no one says.
They believe things now found in the Bible.
They hear truths and distrust them while they hear lies and believe then without question...

people in CULTS are crazy.... :)

dberrie2000

03-01-2015, 12:23 PM

I think what it is , is that when I say, "Saved by Grace alone, though faith", what you hear is "Saved by Faith alone no works"

you want me to say that so much that you may actually hear that...

That the faith alone theology preaches a salvation through a faith without works has nothing to do with what you say. It's a fact regardless of what you think, say, or hear.

Galatians 6:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

dberrie2000

03-01-2015, 12:24 PM

alanmolstad

03-01-2015, 12:45 PM

misrepresenting my views or my Christian religion can become very expensive....

dberrie2000

03-01-2015, 12:57 PM

misrepresenting my views or my Christian religion can become very expensive....

What are you claiming is a misrepresentation? That you belong to a cult?

If you belong to any Christian denomination--you belong to a cult:

cult

Houghton Mifflin

n.noun

A system or community of religious worship and ritual.

The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual.

A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease.

Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.

The object of such devotion.

An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.

theway

03-02-2015, 09:58 AM

I think what it is , is that when I say, "Saved by Grace alone, though faith", what you hear is "Saved by Faith alone no works"

you want me to say that so much that you may actually hear that...Dont blame us, this is your doing.
Whenever you guys claim that you believe that it is only by "Grace we are saved" or that it is "by Grace alone through Faith" that we are saved, we will point out that we believe the exact same thing.
You then claim that that is not true because we believe that one must also repent and do good works.
That means that you are the one that keep equating Grace Alone with meaning Faith Alone sans any works.

The hypocrisy comes from you knowing that you have a losing position, and therefore want to own both sides of the argument. Yet instead of it becoming a win-win for you, it becomes a lose-lose. Just go to any Christian forums which don't have a Mormon section and see how they spend countless hours arguing the same issue amoungst themselves.

I mean... If you guys can't convince your own that Faith Alone is true, then why come here and try and convince us gullible Mormons who are not even gullible enough to believe it either.