Because or for?

[dberrie2000]

Would this be an example of that--where God extends His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

Acts 2:38King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Acts 10: 46 uses “for” where “because” could be used. Salvation comes before any works (See Ephesians 2:9)

Could anyone here produce a translation that has "because" used in the Acts2:38 verse? IMO--this is another example of the faith alone attempt to alter or deny what the scriptures bear testimony to--God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him. It defies faith alone theology--so an alteration is demanded--change it to because--instead of "for":


New International Version
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

New Living Translation
Peter replied, "Each of you must repent of your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

English Standard Version
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

New American Standard Bible
Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

King James Bible
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Repent," Peter said to them, "and be baptized, each of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

International Standard Version
Peter answered them, "Every one of you must repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus the Messiah for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift.

NET Bible
Peter said to them, "Repent, and each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And Shimeon said to them, “Return to God and be immersed everyone of you, in the name of THE LORD JEHOVAH Yeshua, for release from sin, so that you may receive the gift of The Spirit of Holiness.”

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Peter answered them, "All of you must turn to God and change the way you think and act, and each of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins will be forgiven. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift.

Jubilee Bible 2000
Then Peter said unto them, Repent and be baptized each one of you into the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

King James 2000 Bible
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

American King James Version
Then Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

American Standard Version
And Peter'said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Darby Bible Translation
And Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptised, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for remission of sins, and ye will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

English Revised Version
And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Webster's Bible Translation
Then Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Weymouth New Testament
"Repent," replied Peter, "and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, with a view to the remission of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

World English Bible
Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Young's Literal Translation
and Peter said unto them, 'Reform, and be baptized each of you on the name of Jesus Christ, to remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit,

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostWould this be an example of that--where God extends His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

Acts 2:38--King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post Acts 10: 46 uses “for” where “because” could be used. Salvation comes before any works (See Ephesians 2:9)

Could anyone here produce a translation that has "because" used in the Acts2:38 verse? IMO--this is another example of the faith alone attempt to alter or deny what the scriptures bear testimony to--God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him. It defies faith alone theology--so an alteration is demanded--change it to because--instead of "for":

New International Version
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

New Living Translation
Peter replied, "Each of you must repent of your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

English Standard Version
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

New American Standard Bible
Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

King James Bible
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Repent," Peter said to them, "and be baptized, each of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

International Standard Version
Peter answered them, "Every one of you must repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus the Messiah for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift.

NET Bible
Peter said to them, "Repent, and each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And Shimeon said to them, “Return to God and be immersed everyone of you, in the name of THE LORD JEHOVAH Yeshua, for release from sin, so that you may receive the gift of The Spirit of Holiness.”

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Peter answered them, "All of you must turn to God and change the way you think and act, and each of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins will be forgiven. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift.

Jubilee Bible 2000
Then Peter said unto them, Repent and be baptized each one of you into the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

King James 2000 Bible
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

American King James Version
Then Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

American Standard Version
And Peter'said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Darby Bible Translation
And Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptised, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for remission of sins, and ye will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

English Revised Version
And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Webster's Bible Translation
Then Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Weymouth New Testament
"Repent," replied Peter, "and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, with a view to the remission of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

World English Bible
Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Young's Literal Translation
and Peter said unto them, 'Reform, and be baptized each of you on the name of Jesus Christ, to remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit,


Bump for anyone.

[alanmolstad]

this is another example of the faith alone attempt to


Its "grace alone"
Not "faith alone".


Your welcome,

[theway]

Its "grace alone"
Not "faith alone".


Your welcome,LOL.... It seems alanmolstad has begun his backpedalling.

[disciple]

LOL.... It seems alanmolstad has begun his backpedalling.

“Among whom we all once lived in the p***ions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our tresp***es, made us alive together with Christ — by grace you have been saved.” Eph. 2:3-5


All of God’s wrath, all of the condemnation we deserve, was poured out on Jesus. All of God’s demands for perfect righteousness were fulfilled by Christ. The moment we see (by grace) this truth and receive him in this way his death counts as our death and his condemnation as our condemnation and his righteousness as our righteousness, and God becomes 100% irrevocably for us forever before we knew or obeyed His commands.
Paul is saying that, before regeneration, God’s wrath was on us. Those who are now saved were under wrath. This changed when God made us alive in Christ Jesus and awakened us to see the truth of Christ so that we received him as the one who died for us and as the one whose righteousness is counted as ours because of our union with Jesus. Before this happened to us, we were under God’s wrath. Then, because of faith in Christ and union with him, all God’s wrath was removed we are no longer blind and we want to obey His commands.

[alanmolstad]

As Walter Martin said...It's not by faith alone nor works alone or any combination of the two but by Grace Alone though faith we are saved.

[dberrie2000]

As Walter Martin said...It's not by faith alone nor works alone or any combination of the two but by Grace Alone though faith we are saved.

Then why do the faith alone claim salvation comes through a faith alone theology? Walter Martin believed in the faith alone theology.

[alanmolstad]

Would you like me to post the link again ?

[alanmolstad]

Kind of weird.


I post this same video over and over where Martin teaches what I'm saying and yet you act surprised?


Someone needs to listen better

[alanmolstad]

Once again. ..

Not by faith alone
Nor by works alone
And not by any combination of the two

[alanmolstad]

Is that clear enough for you?

[theway]

Kind of weird.


I post this same video over and over where Martin teaches what I'm saying and yet you act surprised?


Someone needs to listen betterI saw the video... And yes, His ideas are just as contradictory and errant as yours are.

[alanmolstad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M&list=PL701D8A67651291FF&index=18



:30 seconds point....

[Saxon]

Listen to Walter when he defines grace @ 41 seconds point.

[theway]

Listen to Walter when he defines grace @ 41 seconds point.
That's what I said, he makes absolutely no sense. According to his definition "Grace is God's Love" and since we know God loves everybody, does that mean Grace is given to everybody???
The Bible also says in several places that God will give mercy to those who first extends mercy to others...
So what he needs to explain is whether Grace is salvation?
Is Faith salvation?
When exactly does salvation come to an individual?

Either way he will contradict himself, it's utter nonsense, made to make a person feel good about himself while remaining in sin.

[Saxon]

What is your definition of grace??

[theway]

What is your definition of grace??
In terms of God towards men; it would be God's divine help and blessings.

[Saxon]

How about, "God's at***ude towards man"?

[alanmolstad]

What is your definition of grace??
LOVE.....its when Love moves the person to action.

"Militant Love"

[alanmolstad]

I claim that term.....:)

[dberrie2000]

“Among whom we all once lived in the p***ions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our tresp***es, made us alive together with Christ — by grace you have been saved.” Eph. 2:3-5

All of God’s wrath, all of the condemnation we deserve, was poured out on Jesus. All of God’s demands for perfect righteousness were fulfilled by Christ. The moment we see (by grace) this truth and receive him in this way his death counts as our death and his condemnation as our condemnation and his righteousness as our righteousness, and God becomes 100% irrevocably for us forever before we knew or obeyed His commands.
Paul is saying that, before regeneration, God’s wrath was on us. Those who are now saved were under wrath. This changed when God made us alive in Christ Jesus and awakened us to see the truth of Christ so that we received him as the one who died for us and as the one whose righteousness is counted as ours because of our union with Jesus. Before this happened to us, we were under God’s wrath. Then, because of faith in Christ and union with him, all God’s wrath was removed we are no longer blind and we want to obey His commands.

How does any of this negate the fact Paul taught that all who did not obey the gospel could not inherit the kingdom of God?

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Disciple--the faith alone preach there are no acts of obedience that is necessary for eternal life---it's a faith without works in salvation, in the faith alone theology. They believe one is saved through dead faith:

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[alanmolstad]

Once again. ..

Not by faith alone
Nor by works alone
And not by any combination of the two

They seem to literally not see this......
They read the statement above,and their minds replace the words so it reads "Faith alone saves"
Then they turn around and demand of me, "Where does it say man is saved by faith alone as you believe?"

They just dont see what they are doing....

[dberrie2000]

They seem to literally not see this......
They read the statement above,and their minds replace the words so it reads "Faith alone saves"
Then they turn around and demand of me, "Where does it say man is saved by faith alone as you believe?"

Answer: No where in the Biblical text:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

So why do the faith alone preach a gospel of salvation through a faith without works?

[alanmolstad]

Once again. ..

Not by faith alone
Nor by works alone
And not by any combination of the two
that should be clear enough to put an end to the loop some of us seemed trapped in....

[alanmolstad]

Answer: No where in the Biblical text:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

So why do the faith alone preach a gospel of salvation through a faith without works?
are you on drugs?

some type of medication?

Im not judgmental here, but it would explain where you keep getting "Faith alone" out of my posts... :)

[alanmolstad]

listen....I have never said even once "Faith alone"

I have posted many times the video where you can hear from Walter martin tell you what the Bible teaches..

Why are you still confused?


Noting I have posted has said "Faith alone.
I have never once posted the words "Faith alone"

I dont believe such a thing,


I have posted many times a video that shows Walter Martin teaching clearly what the Bible is telling us on the topic.

I have quoted Walter many times, and you can check to make sure I have quoted him correctly as I have also pointed to the very spot on the recording that I'm quoting.

Walter Martin says we are not saved by Faith alone...nor works, nor any combination of the two.


You have the videos , you have seen and heard Walter talking at length on the topic.
I have quoted him over and over...

So lets try to document from now on any opinions as to Walter being a co-called "faith alone" teacher.
I dont think it is fair to intentionally misrepresent the teachings of Walter.

I shall post once again the recording of Walter answering the question about how we are saved.
If within the recording you find support for your views?..then quote the part that does.
But if at long last you start to see that what Walter is saying is actually the same thing I have been saying all along?..

Then I would expect this to end this matter here and now.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M

[alanmolstad]

There is this other recording of Walter addressing this very say issue.
This recording is very old, it goes back to when Walter was still making a name for himself in the ministry outreach to the CULTS.

I will even show you where to drag the computer mouse too so you can hear word for word what im going to be quoting , so you can make sure Im being honest and faithful to Walter's words.

Now look at 1:28:00
Its very near the ending of this video.

Notice that the JW that Walter is debating asks if we are saved By "Faith and works?"
Walter says "NO!"

Then notice the JW says "You are saved by Faith?...Just plain old faith?. Just say you believe?
Walter answers "NO! You are saved by Grace!"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gufxYe1OhWs



....its getting to the point where Im going to move on to other topics.

[dberrie2000]

listen....I have never said even once "Faith alone"

How does your never mention of "faith alone" somehow negate the fact the faith alone preach just that--faith alone? In case one is wondering--that is a theology that preaches one is saved through a faith without works. Walter Martin was one of those that preached the faith alone messege--one is saved through God's grace--independent of acts of obedience to Jesus Christ.

IOW--a salvation by grace through a faith without works. That is faith alone theology--here is the Biblical response to the faith alone message:

James 2:24New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View PostThey seem to literally not see this......
They read the statement above,and their minds replace the words so it reads "Faith alone saves"
Then they turn around and demand of me, "Where does it say man is saved by faith alone as you believe?"


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostAnswer: No where in the Biblical text:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

So why do the faith alone preach a gospel of salvation through a faith without works?


are you on drugs?

some type of medication?

Im not judgmental here, but it would explain where you keep getting "Faith alone" out of my posts... :)

I highlighted the terms in red--found in your post. Please reread my answer.

[alanmolstad]

Walter Martin was one of those that preached the faith alone messege--
I posted the video....tell me where he says we are saved by "faith alone"?

You cant?

Oh too bad,,,did I catch you making stuff up again?.....

prove me wrong.
If you think you can find any place in the recording where Walter martin teaches we are saved by "Faith alone"...then do so now....I challenge you to.



But if you cant, then consider yourself "warned" to stop misrepresenting what Walter Martin says on the videos.

(perhaps you might be digging a hole here you did not mean to dig?.....If that is the case, I might suggest you clarify that you never once heard Walter Martin teach anything on the videos but we are saved by GRACE ALONE, and that the other stuff you said was just stuff you made up)

[alanmolstad]

I highlighted the terms in red--found in your post. Please reread my answer.
Your Misrepresenting what Walter martin teaches is something that is clearly poor manners..
But now misrepresenting what I have said is only going to get you in some serious trouble with me...

be warned, you are going down a dark path....


(If that happens again I will try one more time, perhaps in a PM to draw you back from going off the cliff)

[alanmolstad]

listen....I have never said even once "Faith alone"

I have posted many times the video where you can hear from Walter martin tell you what the Bible teaches..

Why are you still confused?


Noting I have posted has said "Faith alone.
I have never once posted the words "Faith alone"

I dont believe such a thing,


I have posted many times a video that shows Walter Martin teaching clearly what the Bible is telling us on the topic.

I have quoted Walter many times, and you can check to make sure I have quoted him correctly as I have also pointed to the very spot on the recording that I'm quoting.

Walter Martin says we are not saved by Faith alone...nor works, nor any combination of the two.


You have the videos , you have seen and heard Walter talking at length on the topic.
I have quoted him over and over...

So lets try to document from now on any opinions as to Walter being a co-called "faith alone" teacher.
I dont think it is fair to intentionally misrepresent the teachings of Walter.

I shall post once again the recording of Walter answering the question about how we are saved.
If within the recording you find support for your views?..then quote the part that does.
But if at long last you start to see that what Walter is saying is actually the same thing I have been saying all along?..

Then I would expect this to end this matter here and now.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M
you can quote...or you can invent....
One path leads to understanding, the other leads to the door...

[dberrie2000]

I posted the video....tell me where he says we are saved by "faith alone"?

That's not what the faith alone theology claims. That is the term(faith alone--sola fide) to describe the theology. The theology of faith alone is one is saved by God's grace without any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ.

IOW--a salvation by Grace through a faith without works. The faith alone theology does not state one is saved by faith alone. But, one is saved through a faith that is alone in salvation by grace--not accompanied by works.

You are confusing what one is saved by in faith alone theology--and what one is saved through. The faith alone teach one is saved BY grace THROUGH faith.

That "faith" found in Ephesians28 is a faith without works, the faith alone claim--IOW--one is saved THROUGH(not by) dead faith.

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Walter Martin preached the faith alone theology--one is saved by grace through a faith without works.No acts of obedience to Jesus Christ as necessary for God's salvational grace.

Again--the faith alone theology is addressed by the Biblical text--in the only occurrence of the term "faith alone" found in the Bible:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[alanmolstad]

You are guilty of misrepresentation of Walter Martin's views as well as my own.

You are clearly unable to quote any proof that Walter or I believe as you have claimed.

You continue to dig a hole..

I will have to decide how to respond to your poor behavior now.

[dberrie2000]

That's not what the faith alone theology claims. That is the term(faith alone--sola fide) to describe the theology. The theology of faith alone is one is saved by God's grace without any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ.

IOW--a salvation by Grace through a faith without works. The faith alone theology does not state one is saved by faith alone. But, one is saved through a faith that is alone in salvation by grace--not accompanied by works.

You are confusing what one is saved by in faith alone theology--and what one is saved through. The faith alone teach one is saved BY grace THROUGH faith.

That "faith" found in Ephesians28 is a faith without works, the faith alone claim--IOW--one is saved THROUGH(not by) dead faith.

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Walter Martin preached the faith alone theology--one is saved by grace through a faith without works.No acts of obedience to Jesus Christ as necessary for God's salvational grace.

Again--the faith alone theology is addressed by the Biblical text--in the only occurrence of the term "faith alone" found in the Bible:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


You are guilty of misrepresentation of Walter Martin's views as well as my own.

You are clearly unable to quote any proof that Walter or I believe as you have claimed.

You continue to dig a hole..

I will have to decide how to respond to your poor behavior now.

You made an accusation--but did not provide the first evidence to back it up. What do you believe is false about my statements above, specifically?

[alanmolstad]

You made an accusation--but did not provide the first evidence to back it up. What do you believe is false about my statements above, specifically?

You might want to refer to the guest known as "The way" if you think that just because there are so few posts on this forum that it means I am bluffing....

I have provided recordings on the teachings on Walter martin...I have also posted on this topic of salvation more than enough for you to supported your wild claims had they not just been stuff you invented out of thin air.

misrepresenting Martin will get you trouble...

misrepresenting me will get expensive...

[alanmolstad]

In the recording of Martin teaching on this topic os salvation.....
Martin says at :31 that "Salvation isn't by_____?

at :31 what does Martin salvation isn't by?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostYou made an accusation--but did not provide the first evidence to back it up. What do you believe is false about my statements above, specifically?


You might want to refer to the guest known as "The way" if you think that just because there are so few posts on this forum that it means I am bluffing....

I have provided recordings on the teachings on Walter martin...I have also posted on this topic of salvation more than enough for you to supported your wild claims had they not just been stuff you invented out of thin air.

misrepresenting Martin will get you trouble...

misrepresenting me will get expensive...

I don't mind trouble or expense--but this is just another example of more accusations without the first bit of evidence as to what you are even referring to, specifically.

[alanmolstad]

In the recording of Martin teaching on this topic os salvation.....
Martin says at :31 that "Salvation isn't by_____?

at :31 what does Martin salvation isn't by?





Why cant you answer this question?

[alanmolstad]

Walter Martin believed in the faith alone theology.
answer my question....

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostWalter Martin believed in the faith alone theology.


answer my question....

Walter Martin preached faith alone theology--regardless of your question.

[alanmolstad]

Regardless of what Walter Martin is recorded teaching?


just answer the question!



or.....


You cant?
You dont dare?
The facts seem to fly in the face or your views?
Are all in your religion so set in their views that facts no longer matter?


What you are is caught in a web ....

You know full well that you don't dare answer my question because the moment you do you show yourself to be telling untruths, and your whole argument falls like a house of cards.

The real reason is that you didn't know what you were talking about when you tried to make the off-hand comment about Walter Martin's teachings.
You unfortunately told these untruths about Martin to a guy who knows a few things about what Walter martin taught.... ;)

Perhaps your invented untruths have always worked before in the past when told to people that did not know what Walter taught?......Im guessing that is what happens around here.


It must come as a unwelcome surprise to be so openly shown to be totally in error to the point where you can't even answer a simple question about what appears on a recording.


so sad......

[dberrie2000]

Walter Martin preached faith alone theology--regardless of your question.


Regardless of what Walter Martin is recorded teaching?

Walter Martin never denies he has a faith alone theology. He did. He was an ordained Baptist minister. Baptist have a faith alone theology.

Alan--I believe you are confusing Walter Martin's claim one is not saved by faith alone--with faith alone theology.

A faith alone theology does not state one is saved by faith alone. The faith alone believe they are saved by God's grace--through a faith without works.

Walter Martin never denies he had a faith alone theology.

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[alanmolstad]

so sad....you are trapped and dont dare answer my simple question about a recording?

Im going to need to start a topic about this matter...
Something about "The question a Mormon could not dare answer!"

and then have the recording to see if any Mormons can actually answer the question, or is this just you?

[alanmolstad]

http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?3542-The-question-a-Mormon-would-not-dare-answer!

[alanmolstad]

answer my question....bump for the new guest....

[Phoenix]

You might want to refer to the guest known as "The way" if you think that just because there are so few posts on this forum that it means I am bluffing....

I have provided recordings on the teachings on Walter martin...I have also posted on this topic of salvation more than enough for you to supported your wild claims had they not just been stuff you invented out of thin air.

misrepresenting Martin will get you trouble...

misrepresenting me will get expensive...

If his posts upset you so much and cause you so much anger, you might want to put him on ignore. That can be a good solution to such problems, it has been suggested.

[alanmolstad]

If his posts upset you so much and cause you so much anger, you might want to put him on ignore. That can be a good solution to such problems, it has been suggested.
Yesterday I decided how I would respond to the different invented falsehoods.
I decided that I would simply keep pointing out their behavior as an example that - "You cant trust what they say" , and set up links to things/questions they refuse to answer.

So its actually going to be a nice little way to point out what they all are like as a religion.

As far as the IGNORE LIST goes?
Yes, Its on the table,
And, I can always put people on IGNORE later if I think its needed....

So far that has really only happened for the truly most poorly mannered three people who have 'blessed' this forum with their posts.

[dberrie2000]

Walter Martin never denies he has a faith alone theology. He did. He was an ordained Baptist minister. Baptist have a faith alone theology.

Alan--I believe you are confusing Walter Martin's claim one is not saved by faith alone--with faith alone theology.

A faith alone theology does not state one is saved by faith alone. The faith alone believe they are saved by God's grace--through a faith without works.

Walter Martin never denies he had a faith alone theology.

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


Yesterday I decided how I would respond to the different invented falsehoods.

You haven't shown any falsehoods. Walter Martin was a faith alone theology adherent. The faith alone have a theology of salvation by grace through a faith without works.


From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also historically known as the doctrine of justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity, and some in the Restoration Movement.

The doctrine of sola fide or "by faith alone" ***erts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith, conceived as excluding all "works," alone.

[alanmolstad]

Regardless of what Walter Martin is recorded teaching?


just answer the question!



or.....


You cant?
You dont dare?
The facts seem to fly in the face or your views?
Are all in your religion so set in their views that facts no longer matter?


What you are is caught in a web ....

You know full well that you don't dare answer my question because the moment you do you show yourself to be telling untruths, and your whole argument falls like a house of cards.

The real reason is that you didn't know what you were talking about when you tried to make the off-hand comment about Walter Martin's teachings.
You unfortunately told these untruths about Martin to a guy who knows a few things about what Walter martin taught.... ;)

Perhaps your invented untruths have always worked before in the past when told to people that did not know what Walter taught?......Im guessing that is what happens around here.


It must come as a unwelcome surprise to be so openly shown to be totally in error to the point where you can't even answer a simple question about what appears on a recording.


so sad......
oh they love to post a lot of reasons why they "can't answer my question....LOL
Or, perhaps they think they don't need to answer my question?...well, that is true in a way as I can't force anyone to face the music as it were...
(I mean you can lead a horse to water...)

But I can point this out as being very "representative" of their religion, as well as the effect their religion has had on them.

For really, I don't actually think that the people that join the Mormon church are like this when they join, but it does seem to be something that "happens" to people once they adopt the Mormon-way of thinking that they need to defend the "teachings" of Smith even over what they can see for themselves to be the truth in the Scriptures.....
(or in this case hear for themselves on a recording of Walter Martin.)

[alanmolstad]

http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?3542-The-question-a-Mormon-would-not-dare-answer!

I have started another topic on this forum, an on it I will be posting some back-and-forth dialog there upcoming, and going over how what seems like an easy question for a Christian to answer actually turns out to be so very difficult for a Mormon to even look at answering...

[dberrie2000]

You haven't shown any falsehoods. Walter Martin was a faith alone theology adherent. The faith alone have a theology of salvation by grace through a faith without works.


From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also historically known as the doctrine of justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity, and some in the Restoration Movement.

The doctrine of sola fide or "by faith alone" ***erts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith, conceived as excluding all "works," alone.


oh they love to post a lot of reasons why they "can't answer my question....LOL
Or, perhaps they think they don't need to answer my question?...well, that is true in a way as I can't force anyone to face the music as it were...
(I mean you can lead a horse to water...)

But I can point this out as being very "representative" of their religion, as well as the effect their religion has had on them.

What has Walter Martin being of the faith alone theology to do with what you believe about Mormons?

[alanmolstad]

answer my question....
Still...unanswered

Typical




As for what I believe about Mormonism?...
What I have learned about Mormonism is what I see shown me about it in the actions of the Mormons I run into here...on this forum.

For I can tell you that just within the last week or so I have had new insight into just what a confused lot they are, and how empty Mormonism must be of truth that it's mighty representatives would need to rely on such deceptions and inventions to maintain "the dogma" of Smith.

[dberrie2000]

Still...unanswered

Typical

As for what I believe about Mormonism?...
What I have learned about Mormonism is what I see shown me about it in the actions of the Mormons I run into here...on this forum.

For I can tell you that just within the last week or so I have had new insight into just what a confused lot they are, and how empty Mormonism must be of truth that it's mighty representatives would need to rely on such deceptions and inventions to maintain "the dogma" of Smith.

Again--what has your take on Mormons--or "the dogma of Smith" got to do with the fact Walter Martin was of the faith alone theology?

[alanmolstad]

Still refuse to answer eh?

[alanmolstad]

Still refuse to answer eh?

Bump.......

[alanmolstad]

Bump.......
Bump the bump

[dberrie2000]

Still refuse to answer eh?

Our Beliefs --Christian Research Ins***ute
http://www.equip.org/about/our-beliefs/

6) Jesus’ death on the cross provided a penal subs***utionary atonement for the sins of humanity. In salvation we are rescued from God’s wrath by His unmerited grace alone, through faith alone, on account of Christ alone.

Again, Alan--Walter Martin preached a faith alone theology--which states one is saved by God's grace--through a faith without works. IOW--dead faith saves, in the faith alone theology:

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[alanmolstad]

Lots of words ..

No answer yet to my question is all I see however.

[dberrie2000]

Lots of words ..No answer yet to my question is all I see however.

Denial is not an option one can choose in the face of the facts presented:

Our Beliefs --Christian Research Ins***ute----http://www.equip.org/about/our-beliefs/

6) Jesus’ death on the cross provided a penal subs***utionary atonement for the sins of humanity. In salvation we are rescued from God’s wrath by His unmerited grace alone, through faith alone, on account of Christ alone.

Again, Alan--Walter Martin preached a faith alone theology--which states one is saved by God's grace--through a faith without works. IOW--dead faith saves, in the faith alone theology:

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Taint so!!! arguments are neither convincing nor compelling. Please answer to the facts presented above.

[alanmolstad]

Perhaps I may need to post the video again as well as the question so that any new guests understand where the funny part of the lack of an answer is found at?

One moment and I shall post both the video, as well as then post the question that seems .....um...just out of reach of a Mormon to answer?....(something like that anyway)

[alanmolstad]

Now in a moment I will be posting a video where Walter Martin answers a question about how all men are saved.
I would ask you to pay special attention to the answer that Walter is giving at around the :30 second point of the video.

Walter says, "First of all, Salvation isn't by_____"


What is the word that Walter says there?

[dberrie2000]

Now in a moment I will be posting a video where Walter Martin answers a question about how all men are saved.
I would ask you to pay special attention to the answer that Walter is giving at around the :30 second point of the video.

Walter says, "First of all, Salvation isn't by_____"


What is the word that Walter says there?

You are in denial, Alan. That Walter Martin did not believe one is saved by faith alone does nothing to deny Mr Martin did not have a faith alone theology. He did:

Our Beliefs --Christian Research Ins***ute----http://www.equip.org/about/our-beliefs/

6) Jesus’ death on the cross provided a penal subs***utionary atonement for the sins of humanity. In salvation we are rescued from God’s wrath by His unmerited grace alone, through faith alone, on account of Christ alone.

[alanmolstad]

What is the word that Walter says there?

[alanmolstad]

You can run away all you want from the question....but the moment you turn around its still going to be there,
haunting you....

[dberrie2000]

You can run away all you want from the question....but the moment you turn around its still going to be there,
haunting you....

Maybe it's time you faced the reality of Walter Martin's theology:

Our Beliefs --Christian Research Ins***ute----http://www.equip.org/about/our-beliefs/

6) Jesus’ death on the cross provided a penal subs***utionary atonement for the sins of humanity. In salvation we are rescued from God’s wrath by His unmerited grace alone, through faith alone, on account of Christ alone.

What is there about that you disagree with? Your Taint so!!! responses don't touch your problem--nor your point. No one is arguing that Walter Martin did not believe one is saved by faith alone. Faith alone adherents do not believe that. They profess one is saved by God's grace--through a faith without works. That is faith alone theology.

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[Phoenix]

Now in a moment I will be posting a video where Walter Martin answers a question about how all men are saved.

He really believed that all men are saved? Isn't that the heresy of universalism?

[alanmolstad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M


Here is the video where Walter Martin answers the question about how men are saved.
the important moment comes at :30 sec of the video.

Notice: Walter says, "First of all, Salvation isn't by..._____"


What is the word that Walter says there? "________" ?

[alanmolstad]

He really believed ...?

1 Tim. 2:3-4

[theway]

1 Tim. 2:3-4You know... It appears you don't have a answer for anything.
All you have done so far is post videos, scripture without an explanation, quotes from other people, questions, pla***udes, and lists.

Do you even have a belief of your own, or take a personal stand on anything?

[Phoenix]

1 Tim. 2:3-4

"God wants all people to be saved" does not mean the same thing as "God saves everyone."

[alanmolstad]

I'm happy you figured that out

[Phoenix]

Did you mean what you said?

"...Walter Martin answers a question about how all men are saved."

[alanmolstad]

Do you there is a different way?

if you know of a different way?... you let me know ok?

[alanmolstad]

You are in denial, Alan.......
Actually I believe that you go on and on and say a lot of things.....well, you say a lot of things EXCEPT for saying the word you hear Walter Martin say when he tells us how we are saved...

Oh that one word seems to be the one word in all creation that you seem to have trouble saying..?

But the question I have asked of you will not go away....I will post it again so that everyone can see the one question it seems that a Mormon cant answer....




:)

[alanmolstad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M



The question that a Mormon cant seem to dare to answer , is dealing with someting Walter martin says at the :30 second point of the video.

If you are just new to this conversation, please have a look at the video near the :30 second part and if you would like to know what the Question is that so troubles a Mormon, just send me a private message

I will be happy to talk to you about what it is...

(I will be posting the question here, but later when I have more free time)

[alanmolstad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M



The question that a Mormon cant seem to dare to answer , is dealing with someting Walter martin says at the :30 second point of the video.

If you are just new to this conversation, please have a look at the video near the :30 second part and if you would like to know what the Question is that so troubles a Mormon, just send me a private message

I will be happy to talk to you about what it is...

(I will be posting the question here, but later when I have more free time)
bump..........

[dberrie2000]

Actually I believe that you go on and on and say a lot of things.....well, you say a lot of things EXCEPT for saying the word you hear Walter Martin say when he tells us how we are saved...

Alan--you still have not addressed how you are relating what Walter Martin states--with the fact Walter Martin was of the faith alone theology. I'm not arguing what you believe Walter Martin stated in the video--only that, in no way, touches upon the fact Walter Martin held the faith alone theology.

[alanmolstad]

Oh you misunderstand...I have no intention of going to another point in my posts until .......we get to the bottom of what Walter Martin says salvation is not by _____ only.

If on the chance someone does not know what Im pointing to, then I think I should post the video again, along with the question about what is heard on the video that has yet to be answered....

[alanmolstad]

There is this other recording of Walter addressing this very say issue.
This recording is very old, it goes back to when Walter was still making a name for himself in the ministry outreach to the CULTS.

I will even show you where to drag the computer mouse too so you can hear word for word what im going to be quoting , so you can make sure Im being honest and faithful to Walter's words.

Now look at 1:28:00
Its very near the ending of this video.

Notice that the JW that Walter is debating asks if we are saved By "Faith and works?"
Walter says "NO!"

Then notice the JW says "You are saved by Faith?...Just plain old faith?. Just say you believe?
Walter answers "NO! You are saved by Grace!"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gufxYe1OhWs



....its getting to the point where Im going to move on to other topics.


Here we have the JW clearly mouth the normal "Faith Alone" argument.
If you listen, you hear the JW ask if salvation is by faith alone?...just say you believe?. just faith? etc.

Now if Walter Martin ever had a good opportunity to answer this question this was it!





So what does Walter martin say when asked if we are saved by Faith alone?.....


He says "NO!"

[dberrie2000]

Here we have the JW clearly mouth the normal "Faith Alone" argument.
If you listen, you hear the JW ask if salvation is by faith alone?...just say you believe?. just faith? etc.

Now if Walter Martin ever had a good opportunity to answer this question this was it!

So what does Walter martin say when asked if we are saved by Faith alone?.....

He says "NO!"

How are you relating that to whether Walter Martin was of the faith alone theology or not? Faith alone adherents do not believe one is saved by faith alone. And? That in no way extricates Mr Martin from a faith alone theology--and seeing he was an ordained Southern Baptist minister--I don't believe one can show any other than faith alone theology for a Southern Baptist church.

[theway]

Here we have the JW clearly mouth the normal "Faith Alone" argument.
If you listen, you hear the JW ask if salvation is by faith alone?...just say you believe?. just faith? etc.

Now if Walter Martin ever had a good opportunity to answer this question this was it!





So what does Walter martin say when asked if we are saved by Faith alone?.....


He says "NO!"
Once again, this simply shows the contradictory words of Walter Martin.

[alanmolstad]

How are you relating that to whether Walter Martin was of the faith alone theology or not? Faith alone adherents do not believe one is saved by faith alone. And? That in no way extricates Mr Martin from a faith alone theology--and seeing he was an ordained Southern Baptist minister--I don't believe one can show any other than faith alone theology for a Southern Baptist church.
see -
http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?3542-The-question-a-Mormon-would-not-dare-answer!&p=161972#post161972

attention to post number #23

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---How are you relating that to whether Walter Martin was of the faith alone theology or not? Faith alone adherents do not believe one is saved by faith alone. And? That in no way extricates Mr Martin from a faith alone theology--and seeing he was an ordained Southern Baptist minister--I don't believe one can show any other than faith alone theology for a Southern Baptist church.


see -
http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?3542-The-question-a-Mormon-would-not-dare-answer!&p=161972#post161972

attention to post number #23

Again--what do you find in post #23 or the video that might indicate Walter Martin was not of the faith alone theology?

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[alanmolstad]

Again--what do you find in post #23 ]

what do I find?.....






I find... that rather than answering a question, some people run away, try to change the topic, bring up other concerns desperately , and do ANYTHING they can to put the hounds off the scent.

I find... that the fact that Walter Martin clearly states his views does not matter to some people that need him to be thought of in a way that must agree with what they "want".


I find... that I am not surprised by this in the least.




But in the end,

I find that Walter Martin's wealth of wisdom, his wealth of teachings, his wealth of insightful recordings, and his wealth of ministry is a true treasure for us all to draw upon.
For he is and his Lord are the real reason any, and , ALL of us are here.








I also find,

I find it interesting that you would post at the end of your comment this - "James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" when at the end of the recording we hear Walter Martin talk about the two different types of "justification"

We learn that there is not just a justification by faith alone but also that there is a justification by works as well.

I have went over this same matter in my posts many, many times.
I have shown over and over that there are two different types of justification talked about in the Bible.
Both types are correct and both types are true.....yet both are different and are aimed at different ideas.
The recording of Walter martin deals with this whole topic in a lot better way that I could here, yet here I have answered this issue as best as I think it needed.

Please refer to the recording where Walter talks about the justification by works as compared to the justification by faith , if you have any more questions...

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Again--what do you find in post #23 or the video that might indicate Walter Martin was not of the faith alone theology?

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


what do I find?.....

I find... that rather than answering a question, some people run away, try to change the topic, bring up other concerns desperately , and do ANYTHING they can to put the hounds off the scent.

I find... that the fact that Walter Martin clearly states his views does not matter to some people that need him to be thought of in a way that must agree with what they "want".


I find... that I am not surprised by this in the least.

But in the end,

I find that Walter Martin's wealth of wisdom, his wealth of teachings, his wealth of insightful recordings, and his wealth of ministry is a true treasure for us all to draw upon.
For he is and his Lord are the real reason any, and , ALL of us are here.

I also find,

I find it interesting that you would post at the end of your comment this - "James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" when at the end of the recording we hear Walter Martin talk about the two different types of "justification"

We learn that there is not just a justification by faith alone but also that there is a justification by works as well.

I have went over this same matter in my posts many, many times.
I have shown over and over that there are two different types of justification talked about in the Bible.
Both types are correct and both types are true.....yet both are different and are aimed at different ideas.
The recording of Walter martin deals with this whole topic in a lot better way that I could here, yet here I have answered this issue as best as I think it needed.

Please refer to the recording where Walter talks about the justification by works as compared to the justification by faith , if you have any more questions...

Alan--I don't find the first thing in your reply about how any of your material addresses the fact Walter Martin was of the faith alone theology. Nothing. Walter Martin believed just what faith alone adherents believe--one is saved by God's grace through a faith without works:

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[alanmolstad]

Alan--I don't find the first thing in your reply about how any of your material addresses the fact Walter Martin was of the faith alone theology. Nothing. Walter Martin believed just what faith alone adherents believe--one is saved by God's grace through a faith without works:

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


again....We are saved by Grace though faith and not "by" works.....


Works are always with faith,. faith is never without works...
But we are not saved by works.

We are just not saved by works thats all....

[alanmolstad]

as for the fact that the word "for" can mean the same thing as the word "because"?.....it's very true.




"Please put your car inside the shop for its raining"

"Please put your car inside the shop because it's raining"



The words "For" and "Because" can at times be interchanged.





Also, in the sentence "Please put your car inside the shop for/because it's raining" we have to always keep in mind that the idea of putting the car inside has no effect on the rain.
The rain is a fact,,,it's a done deal...nothing you do with the car will change anything about the rain.

But rather the idea of moving the car is in "RESPONSE" to the fact that it is raining.

The car does not change the weather......LOL

[TrueBlue?]

as for the fact that the word "for" can mean the same thing as the word "because"?.....it's very true.




"Please put your car inside the shop for its raining"

"Please put your car inside the shop because it's raining"



The words "For" and "Because" can at times be interchanged.





Also, in the sentence "Please put your car inside the shop for/because it's raining" we have to always keep in mind that the idea of putting the car inside has no effect on the rain.
The rain is a fact,,,it's a done deal...nothing you do with the car will change anything about the rain.

But rather the idea of moving the car is in "RESPONSE" to the fact that it is raining.

The car does not change the weather......LOL

Why should anybody acknowledge your posts when you completely ignore facts. The fact is εἰς (Matt. 26:28 AGNT) in the greek is never ever ever used as because. There is around 1750 instances were eis is used. In every instance it's forward looking. Meaning that something done to achieve something else. There are many greek words that english translators use the word "for" to express their meaning.

For example, εἰς (Matt. 26:28 AGNT) is used. They specifically used εἰς because if any other form of for, such as because, is used it would destroy Christianity at it's core.

28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for(εἰς) forgiveness of sins. (Matt. 26:28 NAU)
Matthew 26:28 τοῦτο γάρ ἐστιν τὸ αἷμά μου τῆς διαθήκης τὸ περὶ πολλῶν ἐκχυννόμενον εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν. (Matt. 26:28 AGNT)

Notice how there isnt a greek word used for the first two "for" used in the verse.

38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for(εἰς) the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38 NAU)

πρὸς is used for "because" in the greek. What would Mat. 26:28 look like if it was because?

28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many because(πρὸς) forgiveness of sins.

That defeats the whole purpose of His sacrifice. If we already had forgiveness of sins, then what in the world is He doing this for?

[alanmolstad]

just replace the words and see if the sentence works?....(hint- it does...LOL )

[alanmolstad]

so when does a person get saved?

The answer is that you are saved when you believe...

No works too?....nope

Dont have to do anything?....nope

Dont have to do something at all....nope...

Just believe?,,,,,yes

It's that simple?

You just believe and you are saved and forgiven of all your sins?.....yes


so you dont have to be baptized?....nope, just consider the thief on the cross...totally saved, yet never baptized.
There is another story of people hearing the word of God and believing and speaking in tongues, yet not yet baptized,,,


So how does the Bible say we are saved?....We are saved by GRACE though FAITH, and not by works!






What roll is baptism then?....It's a work that is a part of the Justification by Works that is talked about in the Bible.


Why is the Justification By Works important to the church?....because we cant see into each other's heart, we can only judge what we see on the outsides.....we can only judge the works of people....that why works are always with our Faith.


This is why the bible says at times that they who believe and are baptized are saved....or...they who believe and speak something are saved...for saying something or doing something are just normal works that are flowing from a believers faith. ..

But speaking any words do not save nor taking a bath or shower does not save


We are saved only by grace working through our faith....not by any works at all

Not by any water regardless of the amount...not by any words no mater how well spoken...

For works and words are all matters that flow out of the hidden heart...they confirm our salvation.
But God sees into the hidden heart.and that is why we are saved by grace through the faith that only God sees

[alanmolstad]

But God sees the heart.

God knows all things, and he knows your heart before you ever walked down into the water...thus if you are not saved before you entered the water dont expect to be saved with you come out, for the water is not magic...going under the water does not make you believe...its not magic water...LOL


But is your heart is ready and you believe, then you are saved before even one drop of water hits your head.

[alanmolstad]

Then he brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved,

[alanmolstad]

that if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved

[alanmolstad]

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through …

[dberrie2000]

Works are always with faith,. faith is never without works...

Then why do the faith alone(sola fide) preach obtaining salvation independent of, and excluding all works?

Sola fide---From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also known as justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes the Lutheran and Reformed branches of Protestant Christianity, as well as some other denominations, from the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and some parts of the Restoration Movement, as well as the Methodist Churches, which affirm that following regeneration, good works are ordinarily necessary for salvation.[1][2]

The doctrine of sola fide ***erts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith alone, excluding all "works".

[alanmolstad]

Then why do the faith alone(sola fide) preach obtaining salvation independent of, and excluding all works?




In the Bible there are two different types of "Justification" listed.

One deals with our faith
The other deals with our acts.


The first one that is dealing with our faith is something that only God can judge, for only he can see into a person true heart.
You cant see into my heart...I cant see into your heart.
Only God can see into our inner hearts, only he knows the real truth of the heart.

So this is why then we are saved by grace though faith and not by works.
For the Lord sees the heart, the lord alone sees our faith....





But what can we see?
We can only see the acts people do.


You can see what I do, and I can see what you do.

I can look at what a person does, I can hear what they say, and from this I can form a little private judgement as to what I "think" their faith is.


But I cant know for sure.

I can only guess at what your heart is,,,,I can only guess at your private faith.
Just as you can only guess at mine.


This is why we are only "Justified" by works before men's eyes.





So the justification by works is before men, yet the Justification by faith is before God.





and this gets us right back to (here it comes)...The fact that we are saved only by Grace though Faith and not by works.


Let me know if this is still unclear to you, for its important for me that you come here and receive the answers to your questions.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post Works are always with faith,. faith is never without works...


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 Then why do the faith alone(sola fide) preach obtaining salvation independent of, and excluding all works?

Sola fide---From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also known as justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes the Lutheran and Reformed branches of Protestant Christianity, as well as some other denominations, from the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and some parts of the Restoration Movement, as well as the Methodist Churches, which affirm that following regeneration, good works are ordinarily necessary for salvation.[1][2]

The doctrine of sola fide ***erts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith alone, excluding all "works".


In the Bible there are two different types of "Justification" listed. One deals with our faith
The other deals with our acts.

Regardless of how many different types of Justification you believe the Bible deals with--in faith alone theology--it excludes all works in obtaining salvation.

So--what works are you referring to here?


Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post Works are always with faith,. faith is never without works...

[alanmolstad]

Regardless of how many different types of Justification you believe the Bible deals with--in faith alone theology--it excludes all works in obtaining salvation.

So--what works are you referring to here?

when asked what are the works that God requires?...Jesus said that we have but one required work.....to believe!





So faith is the only work that counts....but its not the only work in our lives.
Let us hope that when you believe your life is filled with all manner of works, so that the unbeliever will look at the things that you will one day do, and judge your faith by them.



But let us also hope that you know the difference between a faith that is never without works, and religion that teaches salvation by works.


For believing in salvation via works is a dead end....it leads only to the world of the CULTS.

all CULTS teach a form of works-salvation, that keep their people from straying.



But I want you to be free....

[alanmolstad]

just replace the words and see if the sentence works?....(hint- it does...LOL )

it isnt that it just works well as I claim, its that it actually rarely does not work perfectly all the time!!!!


The real trick is to try to find a verse where you cant exchange the words back and forth!
Go out and try......try to find a verse that does not work just as well with either word being used....its not easy.


Thats how closely the meaning of the words are to each other...

You know this is true if every place you see the word used you can see how the other word changes nothing.



For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

Now use the word "Because" and see if the verse changes at all?......(hint it don't)




For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


For it is My Father's will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life

[dberrie2000]

when asked what are the works that God requires?...Jesus said that we have but one required work.....to believe!

I was taught "works" is plural:


Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post Works are always with faith,. faith is never without works...

[alanmolstad]

I was taught "works" is plural:

yes, and Jesus corrects him....and says its "the work" (singular)

check it out for yourself
http://biblehub.com/john/6-29.htm




So while my faith always has tons and tons of many types of works that flow from it, there is yet but one , single , lone, work that is required to bring forth.........FAITH!


This is the teaching of Jesus.