Walter Martin and faith alone theology

[dberrie2000]

There has been at least one person here that denies Walter Martin held a faith alone theology. Here are the facts:

Our Beliefs --Christian Research Ins***ute---http://www.equip.org/about/our-beliefs/

6) Jesus’ death on the cross provided a penal subs***utionary atonement for the sins of humanity. In salvation we are rescued from God’s wrath by His unmerited grace alone, through faith alone, on account of Christ alone.

Again, Alan--Walter Martin preached a faith alone theology--which states one is saved by God's grace--through a faith without works. IOW--dead faith saves, in the faith alone theology:

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[dberrie2000]

Walter Martin and faith alone theology

There has been at least one person here that denies Walter Martin held a faith alone theology. Here are the facts:

Our Beliefs --Christian Research Ins***ute---http://www.equip.org/about/our-beliefs/

6) Jesus’ death on the cross provided a penal subs***utionary atonement for the sins of humanity. In salvation we are rescued from God’s wrath by His unmerited grace alone, through faith alone, on account of Christ alone.

Again, Alan--Walter Martin preached a faith alone theology--which states one is saved by God's grace--through a faith without works. IOW--dead faith saves, in the faith alone theology:

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Bump for Alan

[dberrie2000]

Walter Martin and faith alone theology

There has been at least one person here that denies Walter Martin held a faith alone theology. Here are the facts:

Our Beliefs --Christian Research Ins***ute---http://www.equip.org/about/our-beliefs/

6) Jesus’ death on the cross provided a penal subs***utionary atonement for the sins of humanity. In salvation we are rescued from God’s wrath by His unmerited grace alone, through faith alone, on account of Christ alone.

Again, Alan--Walter Martin preached a faith alone theology--which states one is saved by God's grace--through a faith without works. IOW--dead faith saves, in the faith alone theology:

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Bump for anyone

[alanmolstad]

Bump for Alan


Walter did not write that....

The link you try to twist into be written and representing Walter's teaching is actually written and represents Hank Hanegraaff's views.....

Are the links words well written or not?..
Do they correctly represent Hank's views?.....

Such questions are best addressed to Hank himself...

......................... (If you want we could write to Hank and ask him?)




Now as for what Walter Martin believed?...lets just look at what Walter said on this very same question and get it right from the horse's mouth what Walter believed and what he taught.


...(That way we dont have to try to guess based on the links text that was not even written by Walter in the first place!!!! )


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL1eXPgFy6k

THERE, THAT IS WHAT WALTER REALLY BELIEVED!!

You should watch carefully at the 3:40 section of the video where Walter teaches us what he believes about salvation.

So when you watch the video what do we learn about Walter's teachings?...we learn that Walter clearly taught that works do not add to our salvation at all.
We are saved by Grace though faith, and not by works.

Salvation is not helped by works, but faith is always bringing forth works...

[Berean]

Walter Martin and faith alone theology

There has been at least one person here that denies Walter Martin held a faith alone theology. Here are the facts:

Our Beliefs --Christian Research Ins***ute---http://www.equip.org/about/our-beliefs/

6) Jesus’ death on the cross provided a penal subs***utionary atonement for the sins of humanity. In salvation we are rescued from God’s wrath by His unmerited grace alone, through faith alone, on account of Christ alone.

Again, Alan--Walter Martin preached a faith alone theology--which states one is saved by God's grace--through a faith without works. IOW--dead faith saves, in the faith alone theology:

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Bump for anyone

This nonsensical argument is a false dilemma which seeks only to deny the doctrine of grace.

As I have pointed out to you in other threads, James places the emphasis on the fact that genuine faith alone in Christ produces good works. Not the other way around. We know this because of the many other Scriptures that clearly indicate that Christian salvation is achieved by placing one's faith entirely in the Work of Christ on the Cross, and any effort to "supplement" that Divine Work, denies the sufficiency of Christ's Work to overcome all sin.

To argue against the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ plus nothing, one must twist the Scriptures into theological pretzels in an attempt to prove that they agree with Mormon doctrines. The problem for you is that Mormon doctrines cannot be found in the Bible. (Or the Book of Mormon).

Salvation (Exaltation in Mormon-speak) comes by keeping all of the commandments, but, which no one can do. For "all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God" (Romans 3:23) and 1 John 1:8 insists: "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

Are you saying you have no sin? The Bible says you are a liar if you claim that. If you do have sin, then according to Mormon teachings you have not truly repented. Mormons who have not truly repented are still in sin, which means you are not eligible for the Celestial Kingdom when you die, and all who are not good enough for the Celestial Kingdom (meaning they have not become sinless) are sealed to Satan for an eternity in the lake of fire. Also with their god, Joseph Smith the false prophet.

Since this is the Mormon section, don't you think these issues should be focused on rather than attempting to make fodder of the Bible, which you, (being unsaved and therefore void of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit), have no God given ability to understand? That's probably why they confuse you so much. Your attempts to make ignorant Christians squirm, by taking Bible verses out of context to create these false dilemmas, only demonstrates that you don't have a clue what you're talking about when it comes to the Bible. So you have no business turning your attention to Christianity in a pointless attempt to find fault with its teachings, when you have no ability whatsoever to understand them.

[alanmolstad]

I think I more that proved my point here......

Walter is very clear in the video....he has been more that clear on this topic over and over,,,

[dberrie2000]

I think I more that proved my point here......

Walter is very clear in the video....he has been more that clear on this topic over and over,,,

If one were to look at Walter Martin's book--"The Kingdom of the Cults"--in the "GENERAL EDITOR’S INTRODUCTION"--paragraph 6--there is a statement they teach a salvation by grace--based on a theology of faith alone--without any works necessary.

[alanmolstad]

If one were to look at Walter Martin's book--"The Kingdom of the Cults"--in the "GENERAL EDITOR’S INTRODUCTION"--paragraph 6--there is a statement they teach a salvation by grace--based on a theology of faith alone--without any works necessary.

LOL.....thats funny....



(See post #4 above to learn what Walter Martin really taught in his OWN words...)


For man is not saved by faith, nor by works, nor by any combination of the two.
If salvation came via works of the law then Christ died for nothing.

[alanmolstad]

If one were to look at Walter Martin's book--"The Kingdom of the Cults"--in the "GENERAL EDITOR’S INTRODUCTION"--paragraph 6--there is a statement they teach a salvation by grace--based on a theology of faith alone--without any works necessary.

I think you better back-up and re-read whatever it is you are reading...

Chances are, you are reading something that Walter did not write correct?
Chances are that whatever you are posting here is actually a quote from some other work correct?
And chances are that if what you are quoting is true Christian teachings, then we should make sure we quote it with the correct context of it being that we are saved by Grace,
Yes, we are saved by GRACE!....."grace though faith".


So we are not saved by faith
So we are not saved by works
So we are not saved by adding works to faith
So we are not saved by adding faith to our works.

We are saved by grace.

Saved by grace through faith.

Saved by grace though faith and not by works.




Now Im not sure what you are reading, nor it's context.
But if what you are attempting to quote is correct Christian theology, then it should be in agreement with what i just have posted here now.







so go check your source again
http://hisbridgemedia.com/docs/MartinWalter_KingdomOfTheCults.pdf
and see if it is in agreement with what I have said?, or what i have said I suspect about what it is saying?, and who wrote it?...

[alanmolstad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M&t=4s



Just so we have a very clear understanding of what Walter Martin taught and believed...
What we see in the above video is Walter teaching how men are saved.

Please turn your attention to the 0:30 second point of this short video clip.

Here is what Walter says, (and I will try to quote it word for word)




"First of all salvation isn't by faith, it isn't by works, or any combination of them. Salvation is by grace alone though faith."






Did you catch that?...."Salvation is by grace ALONE....though faith"

[dberrie2000]

I think you better back-up and re-read whatever it is you are reading...

Alan--Walter Martin was the author of "The Kingdom of the Cults".

Again--if you will go to the "GENERAL EDITOR’S INTRODUCTION"--paragraph 6--there is a statement they teach a salvation by grace--based on a theology of faith alone--without any works necessary.

I could quote it from the actual book--if you would like, and I have permission to do so.

[alanmolstad]

I could quote it from the actual book--if you would like, and I have permission to do so.

I thought I posted the link to what you were quoting?

Does the link work for you?...worked here for me when I tested it...

[alanmolstad]

Alan--Walter Martin was the author of "The Kingdom of the Cults".

Again--if you will go to the "GENERAL EDITOR’S INTRODUCTION"--paragraph 6--.....
Walter did not write that.

[alanmolstad]

If Im looking at the same thing you are,,,,then what you are quoting is not at all what Walter martin wrote.

agreed?


What its is, is something that was added to the book by someone else.

agreed?



Now because im looking at the text on a computer, there may be some difference in how the paragraps are arranged to fit on the screen compared to a printed page..

So why dont you copy/past the paragraph 6 so I know for sure what you are looking at.....thanks

[alanmolstad]

as far as I can guess what you are talking about,, you are quoting something that is not a quote of Walter Martin.
Correct?


it is in fact a quote of the publication of a group known in my day as the "World Wide church Of God"....(the Armstrong guys).

I think the quote is lifted from their mag "THE PLAIN TRUTH"
Correct?

[alanmolstad]

if you admit the quote is not really from Martin....then...um...what was your point again?

[dberrie2000]

Walter did not write that.

Please allow me to remind you the book--"The Kingdom of the Cults"--was authored by Walter Martin. If there was something in there which violated his theology--then why would he have lent his name to it?

Kingdom of the Cults, rev. and updated ed. - Edited By: Ravi Zacharias
By: Walter Martin

[alanmolstad]

Please allow me to remind you the book--"The Kingdom of the Cults"--was authored by Walter Martin. If there was something in there which violated his theology--then why would he have lent his name to it?

Kingdom of the Cults, rev. and updated ed. - Edited By: Ravi Zacharias
By: Walter Martin

haha,...so you admit Walter Martin did not write it!!!!!


case-closed!




the paragraph you wanted to badly to quote was written long after Mr Martin has p***ed away....it says that!

Did you ever bother to read what you were quoting?



so, you tried to make it look like Walter had written something, but the TRUTH is, Walter Martin had already died by the time this was added to his book....and it was written by some other guy and added....and the thing that you are quoting that was added is actually a quotation from the World Wide Church Of God , not from anything Walter had written at all....


Walter Martin had no connection to these people at all...


He did not write what appears in that added introduction to his book...it says clearly who did write it, it tells us clearly it was written well after his death...



Thus...you fail...





Got anything else to say?

[alanmolstad]

if you want to learn what Walter taught on salvation, and the role of works and faith and grace?...then why not listen to the recordings I have posted where you get get it straight from the lips of Walter?

I have posted the videos....you can check them yourself.

look for any point you think Walter cant support and go from there...

But have the courage to address what Walter has actually said....or what he has actually written.

[alanmolstad]

after all the ***le of this topic is what again?

[alanmolstad]

"First of all salvation isn't by faith, it isn't by works, or any combination of them. Salvation is by grace alone though faith." Walter Martin

[dberrie2000]

haha,...so you admit Walter Martin did not write it!!!!!

case-closed! the paragraph you wanted to badly to quote was written long after Mr Martin has p***ed away....it says that!

In the seventh paragraph of the same "GENERAL EDITOR’S INTRODUCTION"--it states the material maintains the integrity of Martin's original work--and have preserved Martin's original thoughts.

Do you believe the book--"The Kingdom of the Cults"--could promulgate a theology which was opposed to Walter Martin's own--and maintain his thoughts? The estate of Walter Martin owns the copyright to the book. Are you clai9ming they copyrighted a book which opposes the theology of Walter Martin?


In Memory of Walter Martin (1928-1989): The Original Bible Answer Man, Part 3 (of 3)--http://www.reasons.org/articles/in-memory-of-walter-martin-1928-1989-the-original-bible-answer-man-part-3-of-3
June 23, 2009
By Kenneth R. Samples

"However, Martin also believed that Christians must align both head and heart in devotion to the Lord. He believed that Christ’s followers are saved solely by grace, through faith alone, but were called to a life of gra***ude and holy service to God. Martin lived out his spiritual convictions through prayer and strong devotion to the Lord."

So--are you claiming:

1) Those who claimed Walter Martin believed in faith alone theology--were misrepresenting him? Or, that the book which the Walter Martin estate copyrighted--has false information concerning Walter Martin's beliefs?

2) If you believe Walter Martin did not believe in faith alone theology--then the theology preached here--a salvation through a faith without works--is false, according to Walter Martin?

3) If you believe Walter Martin did not believe in faith alone theology--then could you list the works Walter Martin thought was necessary for salvation?

4) If you can list none--nor believe there was any works necessary for salvation--then could you explain to us what the difference was between Walter Martin's theology--and faith alone theology?

[alanmolstad]

oh,,,,now you jump to the 7th paragraph?

What happened to your point about the 6th paragraph?


LOL...whats a joke...
Do you not realize what a joke it is for a guy to have a monster-size book filled with the very words of Martin, and yet skip-over that stuff and then try to make a point about what Walter taught by only quoting something that Walter never wrote, that was written way after he was dead, and was written not by a person in Martin's league?


How can you not see how "desperate' that appears to me?




so......rather than going to the words of Walter himself, you.........run away from them?


What is it about Walter's own words that make you unable to quote them to prove your point?


I will post once again the video of Walter talking about how men are saved, and from this we both can see for sure what Walter taught...

and then you can find out if at any point I have said something that is not supported by Walter's words????

[alanmolstad]

the ***le of this topic deals with Walter Martin ,...so stick to that.


If you want to study the theology of Hank Handograf?...fine, start that topic and we will post what hank has taught in his own words too....

[alanmolstad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M&t=40s

There, if a person was serious about wanted to know what Walter taught about salvation, this is the place tpo look.
Walter talks about the subject, and there is zero room left to doubt what he was teaching!
The man had a way of making his point very clear....and was not afraid to correct people.

Notice how he 'corrects' the host of the show by pointing out that we are NOT saved by faith, not saved by works, and not saved by any combination of them.

Then notice how Walter gives us the correct understanding of how man are saved, - We are saved by grace alone, though faith...

[dberrie2000]

the ***le of this topic deals with Walter Martin ,...so stick to that.

If you want to study the theology of Hank Handograf?...fine, start that topic and we will post what hank has taught in his own words too....

I noticed you avoided the questions:

So--are you claiming:

1) Those who claimed Walter Martin believed in faith alone theology--were misrepresenting him? Or, that the book which the Walter Martin estate copyrighted--has false information concerning Walter Martin's beliefs?

2) If you believe Walter Martin did not believe in faith alone theology--then the theology preached here--a salvation through a faith without works--is false, according to Walter Martin?

3) If you believe Walter Martin did not believe in faith alone theology--then could you list the works Walter Martin thought was necessary for salvation?

4) If you can list none--nor believe there was any works necessary for salvation--then could you explain to us what the difference was between Walter Martin's theology--and faith alone theology?

Care to engage those questions?

[alanmolstad]

Im saying that you are afraid to quote martin.....and Im not..

[dberrie2000]

Im saying that you are afraid to quote martin.....and Im not..

Then you shouldn't mind engaging the questions posed:

So--are you claiming:

1) Those who claimed Walter Martin believed in faith alone theology--were misrepresenting him? Or, that the book which the Walter Martin estate copyrighted--has false information concerning Walter Martin's beliefs?

2) If you believe Walter Martin did not believe in faith alone theology--then the theology preached here--a salvation through a faith without works--is false, according to Walter Martin?

3) If you believe Walter Martin did not believe in faith alone theology--then could you list the works Walter Martin thought was necessary for salvation?

4) If you can list none--nor believe there was any works necessary for salvation--then could you explain to us what the difference was between Walter Martin's theology--and faith alone theology?

[alanmolstad]

Im saying that you are afraid to quote martin.....and Im not..

so as Im not afraid to quote dr Walter Martin on a topic that is all about what it taught...I shall....

I think a few recordings of Martin teaching on this topic are a good place for me to start...

BRB

[alanmolstad]

the first video we will go over in detail as we learn about Dr Martin's view of salvation is this one..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M&t=40s



Please take the short amount of time that you need to watch this video, it will be what we will be talking about in my next few posts...

[dberrie2000]

Please take the short amount of time that you need to watch this video, it will be what we will be talking about in my next few posts...

Thanks for the video--but it can't answer the questions I have posted to you:

So--are you claiming:

1) Those who claimed Walter Martin believed in faith alone theology--were misrepresenting him? Or, that the book which the Walter Martin estate copyrighted--has false information concerning Walter Martin's beliefs?

2) If you believe Walter Martin did not believe in faith alone theology--then the theology preached here--a salvation through a faith without works--is false, according to Walter Martin?

3) If you believe Walter Martin did not believe in faith alone theology--then could you list the works Walter Martin thought was necessary for salvation?

4) If you can list none--nor believe there was any works necessary for salvation--then could you explain to us what the difference was between Walter Martin's theology--and faith alone theology?

[alanmolstad]

Now the first thing Walter Martin teaches happens at 0:30 seconds into the video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M


What he says is "First of all, Salvation isn't by Faith"!



with this first statement, Martin completely knocks down the false idea that he was a "Faith only" teacher.... :)

[alanmolstad]

Next Walter goes after the people that think works contribute to salvation at 0:32 seconds


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M


"It isn't by works"!

[alanmolstad]

But some people claim that we are saved by faith plus works.

Walter next totally destroys that false teaching next at 0:34

when speaking of faith and works, he says that they dont save alone "or any combination of them"


hear it for yourself

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M

[alanmolstad]

Thus....Walter is teaching that we are not saved by Faith alone,,,or by Works alone,,,or by any adding and mixing of faith and works....


So now that we know man is not saved by faith alone, what does Walter teach as to how men are saved?

The answer comes up next-

[dberrie2000]

Thus....Walter is teaching that we are not saved by Faith alone,,,or by Works alone,,,or by any adding and mixing of faith and works....

So now that we know man is not saved by faith alone,

But that is the same thing those of faith alone theology preach. They preach man is saved by God's grace--through faith alone. Not by faith alone--but through faith alone.

So--care to answer my questions?

So--are you claiming:

1) Those who claimed Walter Martin believed in faith alone theology--were misrepresenting him? Or, that the book which the Walter Martin estate copyrighted--has false information concerning Walter Martin's beliefs?

2) If you believe Walter Martin did not believe in faith alone theology--then the theology preached here--a salvation through a faith without works--is false, according to Walter Martin?

3) If you believe Walter Martin did not believe in faith alone theology--then could you list the works Walter Martin thought was necessary for salvation?

4) If you can list none--nor believe there was any works necessary for salvation--then could you explain to us what the difference was between Walter Martin's theology--and faith alone theology?

[alanmolstad]

Now, because this topic is all about what Walter martin taught as to the question of salvation, I will center my answer on his words and use the things he taught with his very own lips....

So how is man saved according to martin?


What does the video reveal?

[dberrie2000]

Now, because this topic is all about what Walter martin taught as to the question of salvation, I will center my answer on his words and use the things he taught with his very own lips....

So how is man saved according to martin?

What does the video reveal?

It does not reveal the answer to these questions:

So--are you claiming:

1) Those who claimed Walter Martin believed in faith alone theology--were misrepresenting him? Or, that the book which the Walter Martin estate copyrighted--has false information concerning Walter Martin's beliefs?

2) If you believe Walter Martin did not believe in faith alone theology--then the theology preached here--a salvation through a faith without works--is false, according to Walter Martin?

3) If you believe Walter Martin did not believe in faith alone theology--then could you list the works Walter Martin thought was necessary for salvation?

4) If you can list none--nor believe there was any works necessary for salvation--then could you explain to us what the difference was between Walter Martin's theology--and faith alone theology?

Maybe you could reveal that?

[alanmolstad]

Now, because this topic is all about what Walter martin taught as to the question of salvation, I will center my answer on his words and use the things he taught with his very own lips....

So how is man saved according to martin?


What does the video reveal?
Lets find out what Walter taught from his own lips...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M



at 0:35 we learn -

"Salvation is by Grace Alone, though faith"





What?

Not "Faith alone"?
What happened to faith alone?

What does Martin say?....""Salvation is by Grand Alone, though faith".....

Oh, so I get it now...as a Christian Im saved only by Grace alone!!!!!!!


I dont give a rat's **** what others might teach, they likely don't have the chops to match the teaching we are getting now from Walter Martin anyway.

thus, whenever we talk about salvation, the correct and wise thing to say is that we are saved by "Grace alone, thought faith".



Yes, other Christians might talk about this fact in different ways, but the truth is, the church is filled with teachers that dont have the experience that Walter has...and while many teachers are still great Christians, and good writers, they may be a bit , lacking in how they pontificate on salvation.



But Walter Martin is not lacking!

You are getting real truth here kids!


and its very clear...
We are not saved by faith alone
we are not saved by works alone
We are not saved by faith and works at all.


We are saved only by Grace alone, though faith, and not by works!







learn this
Live this....

[alanmolstad]

next, lets hear what Walter Martin said about grace........

[dberrie2000]

Lets find out what Walter taught from his own lips...at 0:35 we learn -

"Salvation is by Grace Alone, though faith"

What?

Not "Faith alone"?

What happened to faith alone?

What does Martin say?....""Salvation is by Grand Alone, though faith".....

Oh, so I get it now...as a Christian Im saved only by Grace alone!!!!!!!

Then faith alone is a false theology according to Walter Martin?

[alanmolstad]

one of the first things Martin always said, is that you first have to define your terms.


Now many people splash the term "Faith alone" around left and right, but what I see true is that the term itself means zip without talking about what you mean by the term.

Its the same for the terms "faith" and "baptism, grace, salvation, being saved, etc"


So that is why whenever someone says, "Did Joe **** believe in faith alone or not?" I would answer with the request that they go listen to Joe **** speak for himself.


Its the same with Dr Walter Martin.

[alanmolstad]

This is why I have talked about recently on this forum the terms "Not by works" and "Without works"


The two terms means totally different things.
But some people in their rush to teach or to point out something will mix one term with the other.


I will give you an example of what I mean in my next post.

[alanmolstad]

For example....we know that Christian theology (as Walter Martin has correctly taught in the video) believes in the teaching that men are saved by grace though faith and not by works.

Agreed?

[alanmolstad]

For example....we know that Christian theology (as Walter Martin has correctly taught in the video) believes in the teaching that men are saved by grace though faith and not by works.

Agreed?

I think we can all agree that this is true.

Then building on this point, we always need to point out that although we are not saved by works, this does not mean we are without works.



Do you see the difference?

[alanmolstad]

so this means that when I say that according to Christian Theology we are saved by grace though faith and not by works, Im not saying that the faith is ever without works.



This is at the heart of the confusion sometimes when a person says they believe in "Faith alone"
For many times a person can be heard to say they are a believe in the teaching that men are saved by grace though "faith alone".
and when you ask them what this means it becomes very clear to you that what they are talking about is the normal Christian Theology that men are saved by grace though faith and not by works.

They are not saying for one moment that the faith they speak of is without works.

So therefore if in the future you see someone post or say that they believe men are saved by grace though faith alone, its not really a big deal once you have them define their terms and you learn that they were just talking about the normal Christian theology.

Its the same concept, just talked about in their own way in their own words...

[alanmolstad]

by now I hope I have helped anyone that might have wondered what some people mean when they say they believe in "Faith alone".

That if you ask them what they mean, mostly what you learn is that they are talking about the normal Christian theology of being saved by Grace though faith and not by works, and that this is not to be understood that their faith is without works at all, but only that we are not saved by works.



Everyone clear on the difference now between the phrase, "Not by works" and "without works" ?

[alanmolstad]

Then faith alone is a false theology according to Walter Martin?

Please refer to this - http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?4116-quot-Not-by-works-quot-and-quot-without-works-quot

[alanmolstad]

It does not reveal the answer to these questions:

So--are you claiming:

1) Those who claimed Walter Martin believed in faith alone theology--were misrepresenting him? Or, that the book which the Walter Martin estate copyrighted--has false information concerning Walter Martin's beliefs?

?Im saying that you tried and failed to connect Martin to words that martin did not write.

The words you quoted were written by someone else, and you clearly did not point this out when you quoted them.


The words you quoted were themselves a quotation from a former CULT mag called THE PLAIN TRUTH, that is a production of the WORLD WIDE CHURCH OF GOD and is not and never was a church that Walter Martin was a member of, or had an position within......and you should have pointed this out when you tried to use it in your post.


Finally I'm saying that when you say the words "faith alone" you must define them....
Anyone can use the phrase "Faith Alone" and so you must go back as find out from them what they mean by the words before you can so running around like chicken Little , shouting "Faith Alone!" , "Faith Alone!" or else you just look very silly, as you do now to me.



I have told you that when many Christians use the term "Faith alone, they mean what the Bible says, that the Bible teaches we are not saved by works.

Thats what many mean when they say, "Faith alone"


They do not mean that their faith is without works, only that the teaching of the scriptures is very clear that we are not save by works, rather the Text says we are saved by Grace alone, though faith and not by works.



So faith is never alone.....yet we are saved by grace alone though faith.
If some say we are saved by grace alone though faith alone, then in defining what they mean by this we can see that mean the same thing as what the Bible teaches,

see http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?4116-quot-Not-by-works-quot-and-quot-without-works-quot

and I finally suggest to anyone that wants to discuss what Walter Martin believed and taught, that they stick to the things Walter spoke himself, or wrote, and not try to twist the words of other's into this....
I will take a dim view if I catch anyone in the future thinking that can slam Dr Martin and misrepresent what he taught in such a manner.

[alanmolstad]

2) If you believe Walter Martin did not believe in faith alone theology--then the theology preached here--a salvation through a faith without works--is false, according to Walter Martin?

?
again you mix up the words "Not by" with the word "Without"


They are two different things in this context.

Please refer to - http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?4116-quot-Not-by-works-quot-and-quot-without-works-quot

[alanmolstad]

...

3) If you believe Walter Martin did not believe in faith alone theology--then could you list the works Walter Martin thought was necessary for salvation?

?

I have dont this many, many times when I posted the recording of Dr Martin performing with a forment member of a CULT a debate that they put on.
Dr Martin tells the person that there is but one 'work" that is needed, and that work is to "believe" in Jesus.

So this means that the only work is to have faith in the one that God sent into the world.

Dr Martin says that the Greek there in that verse leave no room for any other work.




This fits in with the verses that teach that if righteousness came by the law then Christ died for nothing!
This fits with the teaching that even after keeping all the law the man's whole life, he still was judged as lacking.
So this brings us back to the Christian Theology on how men are saved. We are saved by Grace though faith, and not by works.
this does not mean our faith is without works, for we are saved to bring forth good works. But it does teach that we are not saved via works.

see http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?4116-quot-Not-by-works-quot-and-quot-without-works-quot for more info

[alanmolstad]

4) If you can list none--nor believe there was any works necessary for salvation--then could you explain to us what the difference was between Walter Martin's theology--and faith alone theology?


define your terms on this and you will see that in most cases, you have mixed up your use of terms

see http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?4116-quot-Not-by-works-quot-and-quot-without-works-quot for more information on the difference between saying you are saved by grace though faith alone and "Not by works", and with a faith "without works",

[alanmolstad]

Maybe you could reveal that?
I can lead a horse to water, but .....that's about all I can do in this case.


I can point out recordings to the very words of Walter Martin so you can hear from his own lips what he believed.


I can point out the things others might claim he wrote that he did not write.


I can quote the verses that support all Christian Theology.



I can show the references to help people understand what some people mean when they use the phrase "faith alone".



I can start a topic where I show people that the words "Not by works" should not be mixed up with the words "without works".



I can warn people that if they want to post comments on a Walter Martin-named forum, that they better correctly identify what Walter Martin did write and what he did not
write.


I can try very hard to make all my posted comments very clear and easy to understand....




But in the end, I still just leading a horse to the water........

[dberrie2000]

I have dont this many, many times when I posted the recording of Dr Martin performing with a forment member of a CULT a debate that they put on.
Dr Martin tells the person that there is but one 'work" that is needed, and that work is to "believe" in Jesus.

That is the same thing faith alone theology preaches.

What differentiates Walter Martin's theology from faith alone theology?

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[dberrie2000]

I can lead a horse to water, but .....that's about all I can do in this case.


I can point out recordings to the very words of Walter Martin so you can hear from his own lips what he believed.


I can point out the things others might claim he wrote that he did not write.


I can quote the verses that support all Christian Theology.

You quote nor engage very little Biblical scripture.


I can show the references to help people understand what some people mean when they use the phrase "faith alone".

"Faith alone"(sola fide) is a theology which preaches a salvation by God's grace through a faith without works:

Sola fide----From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also known as justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and some parts of the Restoration Movement.

The doctrine of sola fide ***erts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith alone, excluding all "works".


James 2:24--New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


Could you explain for us what distinguishes Walter Martin's theology from faith alone theology?

[alanmolstad]

That is the same thing faith alone theology preaches.

What differentiates Walter Martin's theology from faith alone theology?

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

There are two different type of "Justification" talked about in the bible.
One by faith
One by works.


The verse in James is just pointing out this fact....as I have told you many times :)

[alanmolstad]

You quote nor engage very little Biblical scripture.



"Faith alone"(sola fide) is a theology which preaches a salvation by God's grace through a faith without works:

Sola fide----From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also known as justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and some parts of the Restoration Movement.

The doctrine of sola fide ***erts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith alone, excluding all "works".


James 2:24--New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


Could you explain for us what distinguishes Walter Martin's theology from faith alone theology?
Just go check out the link to the topic I started that deal with the difference between being saved by grace though faith and not by works, and the phrase "Without works"


thats the answer

[alanmolstad]

so once again....we are saved by grace though faith and NOT BY WORKS





So the works that are always with faith, dont save us.

thus all Christians have faith with works, but that we are not saved because of the works, nor saved because of the faith or any mixing of faith and works.

rather we are saved only by grace, though faith, and not by works.




So you can say we are saved by grace though faith alone, because what you mean is that works do not save us at all.

You are not saying that your faith has no works with it, for all Christians are saved to do good works....so our faith is never without works.




There, that should be clear enough for anyone to catch!

[dberrie2000]

There are two different type of "Justification" talked about in the bible.
One by faith
One by works.

The verse in James is just pointing out this fact....as I have told you many times

How does any of that differentiate Walter Martin's theology from faith alone theology?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post You quote nor engage very little Biblical scripture.

"Faith alone"(sola fide) is a theology which preaches a salvation by God's grace through a faith without works:

Sola fide----From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also known as justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and some parts of the Restoration Movement.

The doctrine of sola fide ***erts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith alone, excluding all "works".

James 2:24--New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Could you explain for us what distinguishes Walter Martin's theology from faith alone theology?


Just go check out the link to the topic I started that deal with the difference between being saved by grace though faith and not by works, and the phrase "Without works"

thats the answer

That is the same claim the faith alone would make.

Again--what are you claiming distinguishes Walter Martin's theology from faith alone theology?

[dberrie2000]

so once again....we are saved by grace though faith and NOT BY WORKS

So the works that are always with faith, dont save us.

thus all Christians have faith with works, but that we are not saved because of the works, nor saved because of the faith or any mixing of faith and works.

rather we are saved only by grace, though faith, and not by works.

But again--those are the same words someone of the faith alone theology would use.

You still have not posted a single point which would distinguish Walter Martin's theology from faith alone theology.

Care to engage that point?

2 John 9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

[alanmolstad]

That is the same claim the faith alone would make.

Again--what are you claiming distinguishes Walter Martin's theology from faith alone theology?
Mostly that answer is all up to how you define your terms.

I have correctly posted what Walter Martin taught because I have posted recordings where you can learn for yourself what he taught.

as far as anyone else and how that compares?..I dont know or I dont care.

[alanmolstad]

But again--those are the same words someone of the faith alone theology would use.

.....

I believe its the same words that someone brilliant would use.
I believe them to be correct.
They are the Christian Theology.

I dont really care who else believes in them or not, for they are true.


I also believe that they are more than enough to have answer your questions...

[dberrie2000]

Mostly that answer is all up to how you define your terms.

I defined the term here:

Sola fide----From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also known as justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and some parts of the Restoration Movement.

The doctrine of sola fide ***erts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith alone, excluding all "works".

How did Walter Martin's theology differ from that?

[alanmolstad]

Listen to the recordings I have posted!

Hear what Walter taught for yourself.

why ask me when I gave you the link to his teaching?


Walter Martin says very clearly we are not saved by faith....not saved by works...and not saved by any combination of them.

Walter Martin has very clearly said we are saved by grace though faith and not by works.


so anyone that teaches that we are saved by faith is?....... is in error, or is making use of poorly chosen wording.

What I have found is a lot of people say we are saved by faith alone, but then when you talk to them they turn out to mean saved by grace though faith and not by works anyway...so no big deal.

[alanmolstad]

excluding all "works".[/COLOR][/B]

and remember the words above mean we are not saved 'by" works,

It does not mean we have no works....for faith without works is dead.

This is why all Christians have works,,,but we teach that we are not save by them thats all...

[dberrie2000]

and remember the words above mean we are not saved 'by" works,

It does not mean we have no works..

It means salvation is obtained without any works.

So--how does that differ from Walter Martin's theology?

This is how it might differ from the Savior's theology:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

[alanmolstad]

It means salvation is obtained without any works.

So--how does that differ from Walter Martin's theology?

This is how it might differ from the Savior's theology:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

LOL.........

:)


you made me laugh!



I like how you stop quoting the Bible story the moment you get the to the part that TOTALLY DESTROYS YOUR POINT!!!!


Tell you what...you can get back to me when you figure out how to quote the rest of the story,......

Until then, Im just going to copy/paste your last post to a few of my church friends on Facebook.

Its text book example of what i was talking to them about the other day.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post It means salvation is obtained without any works.

So--how does that differ from Walter Martin's theology?

This is how it might differ from the Savior's theology:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


LOL.........you made me laugh!

I like how you stop quoting the Bible story the moment you get the to the part that TOTALLY DESTROYS YOUR POINT!!!!

It wasn't my point--it was the Savior's point.

I noticed you did not engage any of the points:

How does a theology of a salvation through a faith without any works differ from Walter Martin's theology?

How does a theology which maintains one obtains salvation through a salvation without any works differ from the Savior's testimony?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

[alanmolstad]

It wasn't my point--it was the Savior's point.

:


NOPE!



You stopped a bit short to get to the Lord's point.


For the Lord's point is right there after where you stopped.
The Lord's point is that keeping the law is no help at all !



Had you kept quoting the text at that point you would show this.
But as you quoted only half of the story you fail to show the Lord's point......but you do make my point to my friends , in that you clearly show you dont dare quote that story completely as it totally undercuts your argument.

so my advice is for you to now go back and read the story again, and this time dont stop where you did, but keep going and you may just see something you did not know.

[alanmolstad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6X7G7T8vL0

[alanmolstad]

"The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?"


The only answer Jesus can give (if salvation is reached via works) would be "Nothing"

Go read it for yourself.
Jesus said if you want to have life, do the commandments.
Jesus did not say, "Do the commandments, and then do some other stuff!"

Jesus was very clear in the first part of his answer that keeping the commandments gave life, case-closed!

So if Jesus was serious, then if you did keep the commandments just as Jesus said, then Jesus only had one answer."You lack Nothing"

That is the only answer that Jesus would be allowed to give if Jesus was serious in his answer that keeping the Commandments would bring life.

But thats not the "POINT" that Jesus is getting to.



For the end of the story the man learns that his life spent in keeping the very same laws that Jesus had pointed to had gained him....
Nothing!

So once again, the keeping of the laws that Jesus pointed to at the start of the answer he gave (The part you quoted but stopped after) is then later shown to be pointless in the 2nd part of the answer Jesus gave.


and this agrees with the Scripture where it says "Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because "the righteous will live by faith."




This means -
"No one that relies on the law" = (that's the first part of the answer Jesus gave, and the part you quote)
" is justified before God" = (is saved)


This is why the man who had kept the law his whole life later walks away sad, for he now knew that all his life spent in keeping the law was meaningless....it did not count...it meant nothing.


"because "the righteous will live by faith." = (this agrees with Walter Martin, for we are saved by grace thought FAITH!, and not by works)


see https://www.biblegateway.com/p***age/?search=Galatians+2%3A21&version=NIV to support all this by the way...




If keeping the works of the Law gave life, then Jesus died for nothing!

[alanmolstad]

and this is why we read later that a guy walks up to Jesus and asks in the light of the above story , what are the "works' that God requires?


Its a ghood question to ask if you had now seen that a life spent in keeping the works of the Law were of no value?

The answer Jesus gives is that we are to have faith in the Lord Jesus.


Jesus is very clear in his answer, there is only one work, and that is to believe in him....

It is "thee work"......in the Greek its clearly saying there is only "one" work required.




and thats to believe.



To have faith....

[alanmolstad]

and this is why we read later that a guy walks up to Jesus and asks in the light of the above story , what are the "works' that God requires?


Its a good question for a Mormon to ask too, if you had now seen that a life spent in keeping the works of the Law is of no value?

The answer Jesus gives is that we are to have faith in the Lord Jesus.


Jesus is very clear in his answer, there is only one work, and that is to believe in him....

It is "thee work"......in the Greek its clearly saying there is only "one" work required.




and thats to believe.



To have faith....

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post ---It wasn't my point--it was the Savior's point.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


NOPE!

I was thinking Jesus was the Savior:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


You stopped a bit short to get to the Lord's point.

For the Lord's point is right there after where you stopped.

The Lord's point is that keeping the law is no help at all !

Jesus connected keeping the commandments with eternal life--which the Mosaic Law was not capable of.

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


Could you explain for us how one could avoid Paul's condemnation--without obeying the ten commandments?

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

[alanmolstad]

nope...you still fail to keep quoting the story.

as long as you will fail to quote the rest of the story then there is really no point to your questions.






again, my advice is to return to the same story you quoted, but this time read the next part and see that Jesus is teaching that keeping the law is a moot point.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post ---It wasn't my point--it was the Savior's point.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


NOPE!

I was thinking Jesus was the Savior:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Jesus connected keeping the commandments with eternal life--which the Mosaic Law was not capable of.

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


Could you explain for us how one could avoid Paul's condemnation--without obeying the ten commandments?

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.


nope...you still fail to keep quoting the story.

Jesus' story was eternal life is connected to keeping the commandments:

John 14:15---King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

[alanmolstad]

you can get back to me when you learn to quote the rest of the story....

[dberrie2000]

you can get back to me when you learn to quote the rest of the story....

This seems to be the whole story:

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

How does one comport faith alone theology to the witness of the Biblical NT?

How does that differ from Walter Martin's theology?

[alanmolstad]

until you find out how to quote the rest of the story,,,Im afraid there is no point in going farther with you.

[dberrie2000]

until you find out how to quote the rest of the story,,,Im afraid there is no point in going farther with you.

What falls short of going far enough--concerning the testimony of the Biblical text?

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Revelation 22:14--King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

John 14:15--King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

[alanmolstad]

see post # 80

[dberrie2000]

see post # 80

See Biblical scriptures you have not engaged:

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Revelation 22:14--King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

John 14:15--King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Please allow me to add to that list:

Revelation 12:17--King James Version (KJV)
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

1 John 3:24--King James Version (KJV)
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

John 14:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

[alanmolstad]

when you can learn to quote the rest of the story, just let me know.

But until then.....

[dberrie2000]

when you can learn to quote the rest of the story, just let me know.

But until then.....

As of now---the Biblical scriptures go unanswered:

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

[dberrie2000]

It wasn't my point--it was the Savior's point.

I noticed you did not engage any of the points:

How does a theology of a salvation through a faith without any works differ from Walter Martin's theology?

How does a theology which maintains one obtains salvation through a salvation without any works differ from the Savior's testimony?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Could anyone answer these questions?

[alanmolstad]

Could anyone answer these questions?

unless a person reads the 2nd half of a Bible story to understand it's point, there is no point...

[dberrie2000]

unless a person reads the 2nd half of a Bible story to understand it's point, there is no point...

So--what do you believe is in the "second half" of the scriptures--which covers up and cancels out the first?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

[alanmolstad]

see post number #72......#73......and ......#74

[dberrie2000]

see post number #72......#73......and ......#74

Please see Biblical scriptures you have not engaged:

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Revelation 22:14--King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

John 14:15--King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Please allow me to add to that list:

Revelation 12:17--King James Version (KJV)
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

1 John 3:24--King James Version (KJV)
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

John 14:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

[alanmolstad]

See post 89

[dberrie2000]

See post 89

Care to address the scriptures?

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Revelation 22:14--King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

John 14:15--King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Please allow me to add to that list:

Revelation 12:17--King James Version (KJV)
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

1 John 3:24--King James Version (KJV)
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

John 14:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

[dberrie2000]

Care to address the scriptures?

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Revelation 22:14--King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

John 14:15--King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Please allow me to add to that list:

Revelation 12:17--King James Version (KJV)
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

1 John 3:24--King James Version (KJV)
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

John 14:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Does anyone care to engage the Biblical scriptures?

[alanmolstad]

Im sure once you learn to quote the whole saying, that I might go over them with you.

But until I see some proof that you know how to post the full quotation I will not .


You can start by dropping back to Matt 19 and having a look at the rest of that story between the interaction of Jesus with the man who asked the question.

Quote the rest of the story for a change.....

[BigJulie]

Im sure once you learn to quote the whole saying, that I might go over them with you.

But until I see some proof that you know how to post the full quotation I will not .


You can start by dropping back to Matt 19 and having a look at the rest of that story between the interaction of Jesus with the man who asked the question.

Quote the rest of the story for a change.....

You mean the rest of the story where just keeping the commandments didn't help the young man? That he needed to give up all he had and sell it to the poor and follow Christ?

This is a great example, he didn't do what Christ asked, but he clearly believed in him, do you think he was saved?

[alanmolstad]

You mean the rest of the story where just keeping the commandments didn't help the young man?
yes....doesnt help anyone as to the question of salvation.

and yes, this kek part of the story seems to not be the part that one member here has trouble quoting?

odd other members of our board find it easy to quote and others cant seem to find it no matter how many times they are requested to do so...

[alanmolstad]

..... do you think he was saved?

When Jesus says you "lack" its a sign that you better take serious.


My view is that the man is the same type that is talked about as here - "1Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you;


you only need to follow Jesus, that is the only "work" that matters with the Father.
It's all about a person believing,,,,this is why the Bible tells us we are saved by grace though FAITH, and not by works!

[dberrie2000]

When Jesus says you "lack" its a sign that you better take serious.

My view is that the man is the same type that is talked about as here - "1Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you;

you only need to follow Jesus, that is the only "work" that matters with the Father.

In faith alone theology--it isn't "following" Jesus Christ which brings salvation. That is LDS and Biblical theology--not faith alone theology.

Faith alone theology has one being saved prior to following Jesus--salvation, in faith alone theology-- is through a belief in Jesus, independent of any works--not a following of Jesus.

Revelation 12:17--King James Version (KJV)
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

[alanmolstad]

In faith alone theology-]

according to the Bible, we are saved by Grace though faith, and not by works.


So we are saved by grace though faith alone, but our faith is never alone...for we are saved to do good works...yet they are not our works but rather are God's works that are worked in this world though us.

So we are not saved by faith.
We are not saved by works.
We also are not saved by any combination of faith and works.



any questions?

[dberrie2000]

So we are saved by grace though faith alone, but our faith is never alone..any questions?

Yes.

If it is never alone--could you explain for us what one adds to faith in obtaining salvation--in faith alone theology?

[alanmolstad]

Yes.

If it is never alone--could you explain for us what one adds to faith in obtaining salvation--in faith alone theology?

again...we are not saved by faith.

we are not saved by works.

We are not saved by faith and works in any combination.




How are we saved?
We are saved by grace though faith, and not by works.


Think of the thief on the cross.
He is in the middle of his death for his life of sins, yet in the last moments of his life, turns to Christ and believes.

that thief is just as saved as a person who grew up in the faith.

This is because our faith and our salvation is not based on our works, but on the Lord's.

Just believe.

Dont have to climb a mountain,
Dont have to know a secret handshake.
Dont have to know a secret name or p***word.
Don t have to lead a sinless life.

We are saved by Grace though faith, and not by our works.



We are not saved by grace though faith and some of our works.
We are not saved after all we can do.


How are we saved?
We are saved because of what Jesus did.....it is not of ourselves it is a gift of God...
Not by our works, but by his grace!


any questions?

[dberrie2000]

again...we are not saved by faith.

we are not saved by works.

We are not saved by faith and works in any combination.

How are we saved? We are saved by grace though faith, and not by works.

any questions?

Yes:


Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post So we are saved by grace though faith alone, but our faith is never alone..any questions?

Again--if faith is never alone--then what do you, of yourself-- combine with faith in obtaining salvation?

[alanmolstad]

Yes:



Again--if faith is never alone--then what do you, of yourself-- combine with faith in obtaining salvation?
What part of saved by grace through faith and not by works do you not understand?

[alanmolstad]

What part of saved by grace through faith and not by works do you not understand?

so what am I saying then?

Im saying that salvation is NOT EARNED!


You dont add anything to "obtain" salvation.....
You cant do any "work" that adds anything at all to salvation.
Not one single thing any person can do adds squat to your salvation.


the only path given us in the Bible is this - We are saved by Grace though faith, and not by works.

and, the moment you attempt to add anything to this understanding you step away from the Christian faith taught us in the Scriptures.

The moment you attempt to make salvation a matter of performing 'works" you are teaching what the CULTS teach,...for the CULTS love to teach their people that they need to do some type of works to "obtain" and maintain their salvation,,,and that becomes the hook the CULT gets into the person, and it holds them inside the CULT for the person gets convinced that without listening to the CULT'S leaders and teachings they would not know what "works" to perform and so would not have their salvation.

[dberrie2000]

What part of saved by grace through faith and not by works do you not understand?

The part here:


Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post So we are saved by grace though faith alone, but our faith is never alone..any questions?

Again--if faith is never alone--then what do you, of yourself-- combine with faith in obtaining salvation?

[alanmolstad]

what part of "Not by works" dont you get?


There is NOTHING you can add to grace though faith that matters squat!



Nothing,,,zero......zip!

The Bible does not say we are "saved by grace though faith "AND" something else"...

So we are saved by grace though faith and NOTHING else!!!!!



No works?....yes!!!!!!


Not a single work is added by the person to "obtain" their salvation?........yes!!!!!!!!

So you don't have to have faith and a list of works?......nope!



Just faith?......yes








Just saved by grace though faith alone?......YES!!!!



Is there no work listed in the Bible that is asked of men?....Only the so-called "work" of believing in Jesus!


So the only required "work" is to have faith and believe, and that faith is said to be what grace works though to save men?......YES!

[dberrie2000]

what part of "Not by works" dont you get? There is NOTHING you can add to grace though faith that matters squat!

The question was not what one adds to grace--but what you believe one adds to faith:


Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post So we are saved by grace though faith alone, but our faith is never alone..any questions?

Again--if the faith is never alone--what do you add to it in order that it not be alone?


Nothing,,,zero......zip!

Then obviously--it is alone. How do you justify your comments-- "our faith is never alone."


just saved by grace though faith alone

But didn't you just testify faith is never alone?


Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post So we are saved by grace though faith alone, but our faith is never alone.

[alanmolstad]

The question was not what one adds to grace--but what you believe one adds to faith:You dont even want to try to add anything...even the suggestion is going against the scriptures.



Again--if the faith is never alone--what do you add to it in order that it not be alone?
You dont add anything to grace though faith, to be able to be saved....


Then obviously--it is alone. How do you justify your comments-- "our faith is never alone."Because faith is never alone



But didn't you just testify faith is never alone?Yes, faith is never alone.





if you have any questions, just ask

[Phoenix]

Yes, faith is never alone.
if you have any questions, just ask

Thanks for soliciting questions about your ***ertion.
What is there, ALONG WITH faith, that makes it not alone?

What was up there alongside the faith of the thief on the cross, that resulted in his faith not being alone?

[alanmolstad]

Thanks for soliciting questions about your ***ertion.
What is there, ALONG WITH faith, that makes it not alone?


faith is never alone.....for what is "THE" work that is required by God?.....the answer is "To believe"

The only work that is asked of us is to "believe", and this is the only work that matters...this is why we say faith is never alone, for it is never alone...


Dont have to know a secret handshake
Dont have to wear secret undies
Dont have to agree to have sex with Smith
None of that Mormon junk

[alanmolstad]

What was up there alongside the faith of the thief on the cross, that resulted in his faith not being alone?



Well it sure was not keeping the commandments....a little late for that.

It sure was not leading a sinless life.....a little late for that too.

It sure was not anything a guy could actually walk over and do.....as the thief was a bit pinned to the tree at the moment.


All that we know of the thief is what we read, and what we read tells us that the thief believed" in Jesus.
That fact means that the thief had the only "work" that is asked of us to have....the thief had faith and was saved...for we are "Saved by grace though faith, and not by works!!!!!!"


so the faith of the thief was not alone.

[alanmolstad]

What was up there alongside the faith of the thief on the cross, that resulted in his faith not being alone?



Well it sure was not keeping the commandments....a little late for that.

It sure was not leading a sinless life.....a little late for that too.

It sure was not anything a guy could actually walk over and do.....as the thief was a bit pinned to the tree at the moment.


All that we know of the thief is what we read, and what we read tells us that the thief believed" in Jesus.
That fact means that the thief had the only "work" that is asked of us to have....the thief had faith and was saved...for we are "Saved by grace though faith, and not by works!!!!!!"


so the faith of the thief was not alone.

[Phoenix]

faith is never alone.....for what is "THE" work that is required by God?.....the answer is "To believe"
The only work that is asked of us is to "believe", and this is the only work that matters...this is why we say faith is never alone, for it is never alone..
So in your made-up requirements for earning salvation, there are TWO necessary ingredients, and they are

Faith plus BELIEF.

Interesting. Too bad the Bible doesn't say what you are saying.

Read what James, a half-brother of Jesus and one of the early apostles of His church, said is the thing that must accompany faith in order for a person to be justified--in order for your faith to not be alone.


Dont have to know a secret handshake
Dont have to wear secret undies
Dont have to agree to have sex with Smith
None of that Mormon junk
I guess I need to remind you of two of the forum rules. They are in my signature line.

Please remember those rules, so you won't break them in the future.

[alanmolstad]

The Bible states very clearly that we are saved by Grace though faith, and not by works.

So its not by faith
It's not by works
Its not by any combination of faith and works.


so you dont need to strap on the secret undies
You dont need to practice a secret hand shake
You dont need to whisper a secret name.
You dont need to have sex with Mormon founder J Smith, (No matter how hard he tries to talk his way into your bed)

No, you dont need to do any of the Mormon junk...

what is the only path to salvation?.....this - "We are saved by Grace though Faith, and NOT BY WORKS!".........Amen!


any questions?

[alanmolstad]

so to be very clear here on this important matter.


The only path to salvation given in the Bible is this - We are saved by Grace though faith and not by works.



Thats it......nothing more, nothing else.

All are saved only by grace though faith alone and there is nothing you can ever add to this that matters squat.





We are not saved by grace though faith and works!





So anyone that says its "faith PLUS something else" is in error and is teaching a false teaching.







So that is the one path to salvation.

[alanmolstad]

But someone may ask me, (insert child's whinny voice here) "Yet Alan does it not say that "Faith without works is dead?"


The answer to that is to point out that the Bible says we are saved by Grace though faith, and "Not by works"!
So what this means is that we are saved and this is worked though our faith, and then because we are saved and have faith, the works just come.

The works flow from the heart of the saved Christian.
Thus we don't do works to "get" saved, rather we do good works because we have "been" saved.


The works flow from the life of the Christian , all on their own.
Theyt do this because they are actually the effect of the Lord's on the life of the Christian...
Thus they flow from the heart of the Christian who is saved.



They do not keep a person saved....they do not add anything to salvation....
But they do testify that the person knows the Lord and is saved.
They are the "Justification" for the Christian to make the claim that he is saved. For the world can not see into my heart but the world can see what things i say and do.

This is why what I say and do matters for it is the only thing the world can know of my relationship with the Lord.
This is why we are held to give account to our deeds.
For they are our way of sharing the Lord's truths with the world.


any questions?

[Phoenix]

Yes, I have several questions. One of them is: What is a "whinny voice" ?

is that the kind of voice a horse has?

[alanmolstad]

Yes very true...an obnoxious sound ...

[dberrie2000]

so to be very clear here on this important matter. The only path to salvation given in the Bible is this - We are saved by Grace though faith and not by works.

So-did these receive of God's salvational grace of the remission of sins by doing the work of God--or by God's grace?

Acts 2:38--King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Thats it......nothing more, nothing else. All are saved only by grace though faith alone and there is nothing you can ever add to this that matters squat.

Could you give us any reference to the term "faith alone" found in the entire Biblical text? The only one I find is this one:

James 2:24--New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


We are not saved by grace though faith and works!

IOW--we are saved through a dead faith?

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


So anyone that says its "faith PLUS something else" is in error and is teaching a false teaching.

Was Jesus in error?

Matthew 19:16-19--King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


So that is the one path to salvation.

1 John 2:3-4--King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

[alanmolstad]

we are saved ONLY by God's grace though faith....and not by any works at all.....none,,,there is no work that you can think of that is added or maintains your salvation.

We are saved by grace through faith alone, but faith is never alone.

For the works that men do flow from their saved hearts....it happens very naturally.

If a person thinks that they need to "do something" , some type of act, something like climb a mountain, wear super-secret undies, known a fancy handshake, etc, and they put their trust in that they are barking up the wrong tree..



salvation for us all in the Christian church, be it you and I, or the thief on the cross , is always the same path.
and that path is that we are saved by grace though faith and not by works.

[alanmolstad]

Matthew 19:16-19--King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.





It must be so sad for you to always need to edit the full story of this part of the Bible so that you twist it into looking like it agrees with you, rather than just doing what the Christians do and simply quote the full story.....


so sad....




Let me know when you got the guts to look rightly at the story and we can discuss it...

[dberrie2000]

It must be so sad for you to always need to edit the full story of this part of the Bible so that you twist it into looking like it agrees with you,

The testimony of the Savior agrees with all true Christianity:

Matthew 19:16-19--King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

That testimony does not need to be edited--the LDS accept it just as it stands:

John 14:15---King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Is love of Jesus Christ necessary for eternal life to occur within us?

[alanmolstad]

again...we are not saved by faith.

we are not saved by works.

We are not saved by faith and works in any combination.




How are we saved?
We are saved by grace though faith, and not by works.


Think of the thief on the cross.
He is in the middle of his death for his life of sins, yet in the last moments of his life, turns to Christ and believes.

that thief is just as saved as a person who grew up in the faith.

This is because our faith and our salvation is not based on our works, but on the Lord's.

Just believe.

Dont have to climb a mountain,
Dont have to know a secret handshake.
Dont have to know a secret name or p***word.
Don t have to lead a sinless life.

We are saved by Grace though faith, and not by our works.



We are not saved by grace though faith and some of our works.
We are not saved after all we can do.


How are we saved?
We are saved because of what Jesus did.....it is not of ourselves it is a gift of God...
Not by our works, but by his grace!


any questions?

still one of my better posts...

[alanmolstad]

so once again....we are saved ONLY via God's grace though faith and not by any works...

[dberrie2000]

so once again....we are saved ONLY via God's grace though faith and not by any works...

When you find the term "faith" above--is that a reference to a faith with works--or a faith without works?

[alanmolstad]

When you find the term "faith" above--is that a reference to a faith with works--or a faith without works?

Faith is never alone.

But we are not saved by Grace though faith and works....

We are only saved by grace though faith alone......not faith and works......



To sum up :
Mankind is saved by Grace working though faith, and not by works.

For faith is never alone...


here is a video I like to remind people like you of, so that you may learn from Walter Martin what role faith has in our Christian teachings of salvation -|


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M

[dberrie2000]

Faith is never alone.

For faith is never alone...

Could you please reveal to us what the faith alone add to faith in obtaining salvation?

IOW--If we are saved by grace through faith--what are you claiming is added to that faith in obtaining salvation?

[alanmolstad]

Could you please reveal to us what the faith alone add to faith in obtaining salvation?

IOW--If we are saved by grace through faith--what are you claiming is added to that faith in obtaining salvation?




There was a guy who asked Jesus what are the works that God requires.....this must have been a question that was sparked by the encounter that Jesus had where a guy said that he had always kept the law, and yet was still found to be lacking in God's eyes.


So if keeping the law from birth is not good enough, if that huge amount of works still is yet lacking, that the question was asked of jesus what are the works that God wants from us?

The answer Jesus gave points us right back to the verse that teaches how all men are saved.

Jesus says that there is only ONE WORK that is needed....and that is the work of believeing.




In other words....."faith"





Thus we return to the verse that teaches, we are saved by Grace though FAITH, and not by any works.!

[alanmolstad]

Faith is never alone.

But we are not saved by Grace though faith and works....

We are only saved by grace though faith alone......not faith and works......



To sum up :
Mankind is saved by Grace working though faith, and not by works.

For faith is never alone...


here is a video I like to remind people like you of, so that you may learn from Walter Martin what role faith has in our Christian teachings of salvation -|


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M

bump for a new member with questions...

[alanmolstad]

Reviewing this topic we see that the Mormon simply wanted to see something that just was not there...

The Mormon wanted so baddy Walter to have said something...and so the Mormon tried to hide the truth but I caught on and showed the truth....

[alanmolstad]

so to review...

When a Christian believes we are saved by Grace alone though faith and not by works, the Mormon will try to say that we are teaching "faith without works'

The error of the Mormon is that they need the phrase "Not by works" to mean "Without works"
That is a needed error , and the mormons need that error to support their version of being saved by grace though faith and works.

The Mormon needs that "and works" because the Mormon needs to feel they worked hard and 'earned" their salvation.


All Mormons are so totally in error on this point that its very sad