The Gift [Archive] - Walter Martin Ministries Forum

dberrie2000

03-25-2015, 04:30 AM

Salvation is a gift, free to the receiver. The saved are the only ones that obey God, the lost obviously don't.

Salvation is a gift of God. As the parables show--we are judged in accordance with what we do with the gifts we are given:

Matthew 25:14-31--King James Version (KJV)
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Saxon

03-25-2015, 08:33 PM

Salvation is a gift of God. As the parables show--we are judged in accordance with what we do with the gifts we are given:

You have just stumbled into the truth. You said that salvation is a gift, to that I agree. You have also stated that we are judged in accordance with what we do with the gifts we are given, I can agree with that. What you have to do now is realize what you have just said.

We stand before God without salvation. The gift is given and we stand before God with/in salvation. Standing with/in salvation we are judged in accordance with what we do with salvation. Salvation was given freely without any work to receive salvation, but now that we have received salvation we are responsible to follow Christ and remain in him.

dberrie2000

03-26-2015, 04:23 AM

You have just stumbled into the truth. You said that salvation is a gift, to that I agree. You have also stated that we are judged in accordance with what we do with the gifts we are given, I can agree with that. What you have to do now is realize what you have just said.

We stand before God without salvation. The gift is given and we stand before God with/in salvation. Standing with/in salvation we are judged in accordance with what we do with salvation. Salvation was given freely without any work to receive salvation, but now that we have received salvation we are responsible to follow Christ and remain in him.

Those who received the gifts were judged in accordance with what they had done with the gifts--and that for the joy of thy lord--or outer darkness.

That defies faith alone theology. As the parable shows--they were His servants to begin with--and were later cast into outer darkness--because they failed to magnify their gifts:

Matthew 25:14-31--King James Version (KJV)
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Hebrews 3:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Saxon

03-26-2015, 09:29 PM

dberrie2000

03-27-2015, 01:16 AM

Yes they were all the Lord’s servants to begin with, therefore they were saved. The ones that failed to do the work that God had ordained them to do (See Ephesians 2:10) were cast into outer darkness.

That only connects works with salvation.

Saxon

03-27-2015, 04:43 AM

That disconnects works from gaining salvation. The section you chose depicts the people involved as his servants to begin with. The works that were being done were works to do because they were already his servants and it was because they were his servants, not to become his servants.

I am speaking of becoming saved that there is no works required. Becoming saved is the gift by grace. After you are saved that there are works that are done because you are in Christ, saved.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them

alanmolstad

03-27-2015, 04:51 AM

that is correct Saxon!

dberrie2000

03-30-2015, 04:15 AM

Those who received the gifts were judged in accordance with what they had done with the gifts--and that for the joy of thy lord--or outer darkness.

That defies faith alone theology. As the parable shows--they were His servants to begin with--and were later cast into outer darkness--because they failed to magnify their gifts:

Matthew 25:14-31--King James Version (KJV)
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Hebrews 3:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

That disconnects works from gaining salvation. The section you chose depicts the people involved as his servants to begin with. The works that were being done were works to do because they were already his servants and it was because they were his servants, not to become his servants.

The servants who did not magnify their gifts were cast into outer darkness. That is a judgment according to works--for life or ****ation:

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

How does one comport that to faith alone theology?

Saxon

03-30-2015, 01:43 PM

The servants who did not magnify their gifts were cast into outer darkness. That is a judgment according to works--for life or ****ation:

They were already his servants, saved. They did not stay his servants and lost the salvation that was given them as a gift by grace. How else do you become a servant of God? Once saved always saved is not a biblical teaching.

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

How does one comport that to faith alone theology?

As I have said before, works are done because you are saved, not, repeat, not to get saved. There is still no works that can be done to gain salvation.

This is the resurrection of the saved and the lost. The saved are the ones that had done good by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and the lost are the ones that had done evil by rejecting the Lord Jesus Christ, the light. (See John 3:19) There is still no works that can be done to gain salvation.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Phoenix

03-30-2015, 10:34 PM

As I have said before, works are done because you are saved, not, repeat, not to get saved. There is still no works that can be done to gain salvation.

But according to the Bible, the rich man asked Jesus what he needed to do in order to be saved, and Jesus gave him a list of commandments. When the man said he was already obeying those, Jesus added the final ones the man needed to obey in order for his obedience to be complete (translated "perfect" in some English Bibles): Sell all he had, give the money to the poor, and then follow Jesus.

The obvious implication is that IF the man would do those things Jesus told him were required, the man would be saved. Jesus NEVER told the man "Because you are already saved, you must, or you will, do the following things...."
I am willing to believe what Jesus is quoted in the Bible as saying.

dberrie2000

03-31-2015, 04:32 AM

The servants who did not magnify their gifts were cast into outer darkness. That is a judgment according to works--for life or ****ation:

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

How does one comport that to faith alone theology?

They were already his servants, saved. They did not stay his servants and lost the salvation that was given them as a gift by grace.

And that because of works, or lack of works. That defies faith alone theology.

2 John 1:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

How else do you become a servant of God? Once saved always saved is not a biblical teaching.

And neither is faith alone theology:

James 2:24--King James Version (KJV)
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

As I have said before, works are done because you are saved, not, repeat, not to get saved.

Again--the testimony of the Savior defies faith alone theology:

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

There is still no works that can be done to gain salvation.

The scriptures have God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him:

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

This is the resurrection of the saved and the lost. The saved are the ones that had done good by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ...

And this is their belief:

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Saxon

03-31-2015, 02:42 PM

And that because of works, or lack of works. That defies faith alone theology.

If you care to read what you had quoted, Matthew 25:14-31, you would see that the servants were already his servants and the works that they were judged for were the works described in your quote of Matthew 25:14-31. They were not judged to see if they were to become servants because they already were servants. This is a story of the kingdom of heaven, the saved and their Lord. There is no promotion of works to gain salvation in Matthew 25:14-31

2 John 1:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Abiding in the doctrine of Christ is not a work but a state of being.

And neither is faith alone theology:

James 2:24--King James Version (KJV)
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

You have failed to prove the concept of working to gain salvation. Justification is something that happens after salvation is granted by God.

Again--the testimony of the Savior defies faith alone theology:

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Then it is about time that you explained why Ephesians 2:8 and 9 is not true.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The scriptures have God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him:

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Then it is about time that you explained why Ephesians 2:8 and 9 is not true.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

And this is their belief:

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Then it is about time that you explained why Ephesians 2:8 and 9 is not true.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Saxon

03-31-2015, 02:51 PM

But according to the Bible, the rich man asked Jesus what he needed to do in order to be saved, and Jesus gave him a list of commandments. When the man said he was already obeying those, Jesus added the final ones the man needed to obey in order for his obedience to be complete (translated "perfect" in some English Bibles): Sell all he had, give the money to the poor, and then follow Jesus.

The obvious implication is that IF the man would do those things Jesus told him were required, the man would be saved. Jesus NEVER told the man "Because you are already saved, you must, or you will, do the following things...."
I am willing to believe what Jesus is quoted in the Bible as saying.

To keep the context of the whole Bible, the obvious implication is to follow Jesus. Believing in Jesus is the only way to salvation. You can look at little snippets of Bible verses and have them say what you want. If you do not ignore the rest of the Bible you would see that the conclusion that you have jumped to is not correct. Any time you add works to gain salvation you have to explain why Ephesians 2:8 and 9 is not true.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

dberrie2000

04-01-2015, 04:34 AM

If you care to read what you had quoted, Matthew 25:14-31, you would see that the servants were already his servants and the works that they were judged for were the works described in your quote of Matthew 25:14-31. They were not judged to see if they were to become servants because they already were servants. This is a story of the kingdom of heaven, the saved and their Lord. There is no promotion of works to gain salvation in Matthew 25:14-31

The servants were judged according to works--and that for the "joy of thy lord"--or "outer darkness". What don't you consider salvation about the "joy of thy lord"--or lack of it in "outer darkness"?

Again:

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Abiding in the doctrine of Christ is not a work but a state of being.

Hebrews 6:2-4---King James Version (KJV)
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

And what don't you consider a work about water baptism?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

What don't you consider a work about water baptism--or the remission of sins to be God's grace?

You have failed to prove the concept of working to gain salvation.

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

What don't you consider God's salvational grace about the Holy Ghost?

Galatians 6:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Justification is something that happens after salvation is granted by God.

James 2:24---King James Version (KJV)
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Then it is about time that you explained why Ephesians 2:8 and 9 is not true.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I will again:

Ephesians 2 states it isn't the works that saves one--but God's grace. Ephesians2 states nothing about God not extending His salvational grace to them that obey Him. The Bible testifies that God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him--and do His works.

Please comport your theology with the scriptures that state God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him:

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

dberrie2000

04-01-2015, 04:39 AM

To keep the context of the whole Bible, the obvious implication is to follow Jesus. Believing in Jesus is the only way to salvation.

How is following Jesus not believing in Him?

John 10:27-28---King James Version (KJV)
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 14:23-24---King James Version (KJV)
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Saxon

04-01-2015, 01:57 PM

If you don't believe in him you wont be following him.

Saxon

04-01-2015, 02:38 PM

The servants were judged according to works--and that for the "joy of thy lord"--or "outer darkness". What don't you consider salvation about the "joy of thy lord"--or lack of it in "outer darkness"?

That doesn't take away from the fact that they were already his servants and were doing the works or not. They were already his servants. They were not trying to become servants, they were.

Hebrews 6:2-4---King James Version (KJV)
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

And what don't you consider a work about water baptism?

Water baptism is a work. The problem is, water baptism does not save. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. There is no water baptism in that statement.

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

What don't you consider a work about water baptism--or the remission of sins to be God's grace?

Water baptism and repentance is a work that happens after you are saved. You are to repent and be baptized because of the remission of your sins. Find an English dictionary and find out about how for, can and is used as because.

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

What don't you consider God's salvational grace about the Holy Ghost?

Galatians 6:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Learn what out of context is.

I will again:

Ephesians 2 states it isn't the works that saves one--but God's grace. Ephesians2 states nothing about God not extending His salvational grace to them that obey Him. The Bible testifies that God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him--and do His works.

Please comport your theology with the scriptures that state God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him:

What is it that we are to obey??? I don't need you to side track about what it doesn't say, I want you to comment on what it does say. Why is Ephesians 2:8 and 9 not true

alanmolstad

04-01-2015, 08:19 PM

correct!!!!

dberrie2000

04-03-2015, 04:51 AM

That doesn't take away from the fact that they were already his servants and were doing the works or not. They were already his servants. They were not trying to become servants, they were.

And it does not take away the fact those servants were judged according to their works for the "joy of thy lord"--or "outer darkness".

Saxon--that defies faith alone theology.

Water baptism is a work. The problem is, water baptism does not save.

But obedience to Christ does bring His salvational grace:

1 Peter 3:20-21---King James Version (KJV)
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. There is no water baptism in that statement.

Is this the belief you refer to?

Acts 2:38-42--King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Water baptism and repentance is a work that happens after you are saved.

Are you claiming we don't need the forgiveness of sins to be saved?

Acts 2:38-42--King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

dberrie2000

04-03-2015, 04:56 AM

Water baptism and repentance is a work that happens after you are saved. You are to repent and be baptized because of the remission of your sins. Find an English dictionary and find out about how for, can and is used as because.

The Preposition “Eis” in Acts 2:38----by Wayne Jackson

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1143-the-preposition-eis-in-acts-2-38

For several generations God’s people have conducted debates with our denominational neighbors as to the meaning of the word “for” (Greek, eis) in Acts 2:38. Peter commanded on that occasion:

“Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for [unto ASV] the remission of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

The English term “for” is very flexible; it may indicate a goal that is yet not reached, e.g., “Go to the pharmacy for [to obtain] medicine.” Or it may be used to refer to a circumstance that has transpired already, e.g., “He went to prison for [on account of] burglary.”

Because of this flexibility with reference to “for,” some have ***umed that the Greek word eis has the same flexibility, and therefore baptism is not to obtain the forgiveness of one’s sins; rather, it is engaged because of pardon received already (presumably at the point of faith). There are several things to be said in response to this ploy.

English Is Not Greek

Just because the English “for” has some elasticity, and thus may point to a precedent circumstance, such does not mean that the Greek preposition eis has similar properties.

The Greek term eis is found about 1,750 times in the New Testament. While it has a variety of meaning shades, it always is prospective (forward looking), and is never retrospective (backward looking) in its direction.

It is “an indicator of direction toward a goal, not as an indicator of location without direction” (Balz, 398). The preposition is used with the accusative case, meaning it points to the object of verbal action. Thus eis generally is translated by such terms as in, into, unto, to, toward, etc. It is a goal-oriented term.

Theology and Grammar Matters

Theologically speaking, the construction of the compound verbs — “repent and be baptized” — connected with the prepositional phrase — “for the forgiveness of sins” — demonstrates that the sense of eis cannot possibly be “because of,” thus conveying the sense, “on account of the forgiveness of your sins." And why is that?

Because it would equally affirm that one is required to “repent” because of the forgiveness of his sins. Who in the world subscribes to the notion that one repents of sin because his transgressions are forgiven already? That makes no sense at all.

Comparative P***ages Highlight the Truth

In Matthew 26:28 there is an identical construction of eis, conjoined with the terms “forgiveness of sins,” just as in Acts 2:38.

In the Matthew text, as he ins***utes the communion supper, Jesus said: “this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many unto remission of sins.”

Even the renowned Baptist scholar, A. T. Robertson, who attempted to twist Acts 2:38 into conformity with his personal theological agenda, was forced to surrender his position when discussing Matthew 26:28. Of the controversial phrase he stated:

“The purpose of the shedding of his blood of the New Covenant was precisely to remove (forgive) sins” (210; emphasis added).

In his m***ive Historical Grammar, Robertson suggested that sometimes “grammar” has to give way to “theology” (389). Is that any way to treat the verbally inspired word of God? Yet that is how Robertson sought to dispose of Acts 2:38. For shame!

Conclusion

It is a sad day in the history of the church of Jesus Christ when men — formerly sound, gospel preachers — begin to deny, both by pen and via pulpit, that baptism is required “for the remission of sins.”

Phoenix

04-03-2015, 04:00 PM

Phoenix

04-03-2015, 04:02 PM

If you don't believe in him you wont be following him.

So the order should go like this:

1. First, you decide to believe in Him.
2. Because you believe and you want to be with Him, you follow Him.
3. If you keep believing and following Him, you will end up being with Him.

What issues do you have with such a sequence?

Saxon

04-03-2015, 08:09 PM

And it does not take away the fact those servants were judged according to their works for the "joy of thy lord"--or "outer darkness".

Saxon--that defies faith alone theology.

Of course those servants were judged according to their works. That is not the point. The point is that they were already servants and the works that were being done were because they were his srevants. They were not working to become his servants. This defies the idea that you work to gain salvation.

You still have not told me why Ephesians 2:8 and 9 is not true.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

But obedience to Christ does bring His salvational grace:

1 Peter 3:20-21---King James Version (KJV)
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

This is contrary to Ephesians 2:8 and 9 that states salvation is by grace through faith, a gift of God, not of works. What Peter is saying is that baptism is a symbol (like figure) of salvation He is not saying that baptism saves but it is a “like figure” of salvation.

In the flood the water saved no one. The ark is a symbol of Christ. Everyone in the ark was saved from the water. Everyone in Christ is saved from sin. No one is saved by works including baptism. (See Ephesians 2:8 and 9)

Is this the belief you refer to?

Acts 2:38-42--King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

I was not thinking of that one because it is obvious that you do not understand it as you like to take it out of context and claim that it says that you need to do something to gain salvation even though Ephesians 2:8 and 9 says that salvation is a gift and not of works.

This is the scripture that I was referring to; Acts 16:30 to 32. This states the requirement for salvation pain and clear, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Believing is all that we can do for salvation. Our believing does not place God under any obligation to save anyone either. God saves us because he loves us and wants to save us. God stated that Ephesians 1:3 and 4. Those that are in Christ are the ones that are saved and all that God asks is that we believe. That is what saves us, God by his grace. After we are saved we are expected to live a Christian life that includes all that you tell me we need to do to gain salvation. You have got it all backwards according to the Bible.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Acts 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Are you claiming we don't need the forgiveness of sins to be saved?

Acts 2:38-42--King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Of course we need forgiveness of sins and that is what salvation is about. We still do not need to do anything to gain salvation, that is a gift. After we are saved we are required to live a Christian life that includes good works. Ephesians 2:10 says that we are created in Christ Jesus to do good works. From this statement it is clear that we do good works because we are in Christ. We do not do good works to get into Christ. You still have it backwards according to the Bible.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Saxon

04-03-2015, 08:24 PM

Saxon

04-03-2015, 08:47 PM

Well, Saxon, I think the evidence that dberrie has provided pretty much shoots down your belief--a belief that you based on cherry-picked proof texts. When the Bible is correctly understood, it teaches that there is a path that leads to eternal life, and in order to be on that path and arrive at that destination, you need to be obeying Christ's commandments.

Of course you do. Explain why Ephesians 2:8 to 10 is not true. It is 180 degrees out of phase with what you are trying to say is the way to salvation. You don’t seem to wish to compare scriptures to see if they are in agreement or not. If salvation is a gift then it cannot be worked for as that turns it into a wage, something earned. It is either a gift or not and Ephesians 2:8 states undeniably that it is a gift. Also see Romans 6:23 making another undeniable statement that eternal life (salvation) is a gift of God.

After you are save, a new creation in Christ then you are expexted to do good works that you are telling me need to be done in order to gain salvation. You do not work to gain a gift.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The opposite scenario--you get saved first, and then you start meeting the conditions for salvation--is as illogical as a scenario where a college hands you a graduation diploma first, and then you are able to start taking the undergrad cl***es and taking the exams that are required to get a degree.

You get saved first and you have already met the conditions of salvation. After you are saved you have to meet the conditions of a Christian by living a Christian life that includes good works. (See Ephesians 2:10)

alanmolstad

04-04-2015, 05:23 AM

you guys are doing great......no need for me to get involved at all.....

Phoenix

04-05-2015, 09:26 PM

You get saved first and you have already met the conditions of salvation. After you are saved you have to meet the conditions of a Christian by living a Christian life that includes good works.

If only you could actually find a Bible verse that says "First you're saved, and then you start obeying Christ" you would have some support for your "cart first, horse at the rear" soteriology.

In the real world and in true Christian soteriology, the horse goes first and the cart follows.
If you want the college degree, you sign up as a student, you take the cl***es, p*** the tests, and THEN you get the diploma, upon completion of your schooling.

If you want eternal life, you become a Christian, you learn the doctrines, you obey the commandments, and THEN you get eternal life, at the end of your schooling as a disciple. Right now you are a freshman. They're not going to hand you a bachelor's degree yet.

Saxon

04-06-2015, 12:47 AM

If only you could actually find a Bible verse that says "First you're saved, and then you start obeying Christ" you would have some support for your "cart first, horse at the rear" soteriology.

In the real world and in true Christian soteriology, the horse goes first and the cart follows.
If you want the college degree, you sign up as a student, you take the cl***es, p*** the tests, and THEN you get the diploma, upon completion of your schooling.

If you want eternal life, you become a Christian, you learn the doctrines, you obey the commandments, and THEN you get eternal life, at the end of your schooling as a disciple. Right now you are a freshman. They're not going to hand you a bachelor's degree yet.
Can you show me an unsaved person that is willing to follow Christ??? There isn’t any. Before salvation there is none righteous, there is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God, they are out of the way, they are unprofitable and there are none that do good. (See Romans 3:10 to 12) In a mob like that, who is going to be obeying Christ? As I said before; none!

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Romans 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

You insist on ignoring the Bible when it says that salvation, becoming a Christian, is a gift, it isn’t earned, it is a gift. Ephesians 2:8 to 10 lays out the steps to becoming saved, a Christian, and what is to be done after you are a saved Christian. (You can’t be a Christian unless you are saved)

Salvation is by grace, because God loves you, through faith, because without faith it is impossible to please God, (See Hebrews 11:6) not of yourself, because it is a gift of God and not of works, so you can’t boast about having earned or merited salvation. There is no way you can accept Ephesians 2:8 and 9 as true and still believe that you have to do something to gain salvation.

Ephesians 2:10 states that we have been created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works. The works come after salvation. Being in Christ is where you are when you are saved. (See 2 Corinthians 5:17) God gives a person salvation as a gift but expects the saved to do the good works that he has for us to do. That is living the Christian life. If you want to do works, get saved, become a real Christian and you will have the rest of your life to do the works that God has ordained for you to do.

After you are saved then you are righteous, understand, seek after God, are in the way, are profitable and are they that do good. You are the one that has the horse before the cart if you believe what the Bible teaches. Why do you believe that Ephesians 2:8 and 9 is not true?

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are p***ed away; behold, all things are become new.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

dberrie2000

04-06-2015, 04:36 AM

Of course those servants were judged according to their works. That is not the point. The point is that they were already servants and the works that were being done were because they were his srevants. They were not working to become his servants. This defies the idea that you work to gain salvation.

It confirms that God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

You still have not told me why Ephesians 2:8 and 9 is not true.

I've never made any claim Ephesians2 is not true.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

And where does it state anything about God not giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

Everyone in Christ is saved from sin. No one is saved by works including baptism. (See Ephesians 2:8 and 9)

The scriptures testify one is saved from sin when they walk in His light:

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

I was not thinking of that one because it is obvious that you do not understand it as you like to take it out of context and claim that it says that you need to do something to gain salvation even though Ephesians 2:8 and 9 says that salvation is a gift and not of works.

It states one is given the gift of the remission of sins due to obedience:

Acts 2:38-42---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

How does that differ from Paul's testimony?

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

dberrie2000

04-06-2015, 04:45 AM

It is true that English is not Greek. The English Bible (KJV for one) translated the Greek to say for. The majority say for. We are now stuck with the English as I don't think that you are fluent in Greek and I know that I am not. if you have a problem with the translation you will find that the majority of English translations use "for" and that will include the ability of for to be stating "because". If it is not because, then it is not inline with the clear statements of Ephesians 2:8 to 10 grace through faith, a gift of God and not of works.

I find it strange that you are like a dog with a bone over Acts 2:38 and so easily **** away Ephesians 2:8 to 10 as if it was not there. Why is that?

There are no translations that use "because" for the "eis" in Acts2:38. "Eis" is translated as "for" in all translations. That has God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him:

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

What is it about Acts2:38 that you believe violates, or isn't "inline" with Ephesians2:8-9?

Saxon--your post seems to reflect the run-to of the faith alone whenever they are backed into a corner by the Biblical scriptures--they start the cancel and cover attempt--and pit the scriptures against one another.

I don't see anything in Ephesians2 that states God does not give His salvational grace to them that obey Him.

Acts 22:16--King James Version (KJV)
16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

dberrie2000

04-06-2015, 04:49 AM

Can you show me an unsaved person that is willing to follow Christ??? There isn’t any.

Can you show us where the Biblical scriptures places anyone in the Kingdom of God without first being judged in accordance with works--and that for God's grace of "Life"--or "****ation"?

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Saxon

04-10-2015, 03:58 PM

Can you show us where the Biblical scriptures places anyone in the Kingdom of God without first being judged in accordance with works--and that for God's grace of "Life"--or "****ation"?

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

The entrance to the Kingdom of God is at salvation; the kingdom of God is within you. Being born of water and of the Spirit, saved, brings you into the Kingdom of God. Being in the Spirit is being in the Kingdom of God.

Being born again is not baptism. It is a second birth. Born of water is the natural birth and being born of the Spirit is the second birth, born again. (See John 3:5 and 6)

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Saxon

04-10-2015, 04:39 PM

There are no translations that use "because" for the "eis" in Acts2:38. "Eis" is translated as "for" in all translations. That has God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him:

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

When an English word is used, all its meanings can be used when the context allows. Because is valid, check an English dictionary.

What is it about Acts2:38 that you believe violates, or isn't "inline" with Ephesians2:8-9?

It is the way you are using Acts 2:38 that violates Ephesians 2:8 to 9. You claim that you must do some work to gain salvation such as repent and be baptized. This idea is in violation of the clear statement that salvation is a gift of God by grace through faith, NOT of works.

Saxon--your post seems to reflect the run-to of the faith alone whenever they are backed into a corner by the Biblical scriptures--they start the cancel and cover attempt--and pit the scriptures against one another.

It isn’t that I am backed into a corner, it is you that totally and blatantly ignores what Ephesians 2:8 to 9 says. What part of “gift” and “not of works” is so impossible to understand?

You are the one that pits scripture against scripture by making them oppose one another. Not of works means not of works no matter how you want to look at it. You still have to explain why you think Ephesians 2:8 to 9 is not true.

I don't see anything in Ephesians2 that states God does not give His salvational grace to them that obey Him.

That is because there is nothing in Ephesians 2 that states God does not give His salvational grace to them that obey Him. What you need to contemplate is what Ephesians 2 does say, gift of God, not of works.

Salvation is a gift and gifts are free to the receiver, not earned (worked for).

Acts 22:16--King James Version (KJV)
16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

What washes away your sins? Baptism or calling on the name of the Lord? (See Acts 2:21) No baptism for salvation here!

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to p***, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Saxon

04-10-2015, 06:17 PM

Can you show me an unsaved person that is willing to follow Christ??? I am not the only one allowed to answer questions, jump in.

Saxon

04-10-2015, 06:53 PM

It confirms that God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Are you sidestepping the issue? They were his servants to start with. They were not working to get salvation, they had it already.

I've never made any claim Ephesians2 is not true.

You don’t believe it when it says salvation is a gift or that it is not of works so you must think it is not true.

And where does it state anything about God not giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

It doesn’t. Try looking at it for what it does say.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The scriptures testify one is saved from sin when they walk in His light:

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Jesus is the light that we are to walk in. To be in Christ is to be saved. If we walk in the light, Jesus, we have to be saved first or we cannot walk in the light. You still have it all backwards. Christ’s cleansing is a continuous occurrence. This happens to the saved that received Christ as a gift from God.

It states one is given the gift of the remission of sins due to obedience:

Acts 2:38-42---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

It can’t be saying that because it is at variance to Ephesians 2:8 to 10. There is no real contradictions in the Bible but every time you say that there is something to be done to gain salvation you make a false statement that does not agree with the Bible.

The remission of sins comes with salvation that is a gift from God and is NOT of works. (See Ephesians 2:8 and 9)

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

How does that differ from Paul's testimony?

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

There is no difference with Paul’s testimony. The problem is with you. You haven’t taken the time to figure out when the lost or saved are being referred to. Do you know the difference between the lost and saved????

Saxon

04-10-2015, 07:14 PM

So the order should go like this:

1. First, you decide to believe in Him.
2. Because you believe and you want to be with Him, you follow Him.
3. If you keep believing and following Him, you will end up being with Him.

What issues do you have with such a sequence?

In essence there is no issue. When you do believe in him, you are immediately saved and are with him, in him, seated in heavenly places. (See Ephesians 2:5 and 26) If you keep on following him you will always be with him.

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Phoenix

04-10-2015, 10:04 PM

In essence there is no issue. When you do believe in him, you are immediately saved and are with him, in him, seated in heavenly places. (See Ephesians 2:5 and 26) If you keep on following him you will always be with him.

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Since there is no material issue, and the only real issue is WHEN this salvation takes place, then it seems you agree that it's not an essential doctrine, therefore Christians can disagree over when the salvation occurs, and still remain Christians, so maybe it's not worth fighting over.

Saxon

04-11-2015, 08:14 AM

Since there is no material issue, and the only real issue is WHEN this salvation takes place, then it seems you agree that it's not an essential doctrine, therefore Christians can disagree over when the salvation occurs, and still remain Christians, so maybe it's not worth fighting over.

Knowing when salvation takes place is not needed in order to receive salvation because salvation depends on God and his grace, nothing else. The reasoned that it is good to know when salvation occurs is that it allows you to become aware of the truth, as being aware of what the Bible teaches helps you live the Christian life. A person does not need to know the Bible in order to be saved, but in order to live the Christian life with any success you need to know what the Bible teaches. If you do not know what the Bible teaches then you will go after any one that says that they are teaching Christian doctrine. If you don’t know what the Bible is about then you are going to be led into false teachings and doctrines.

Any teaching that you think is false is worth fighting over as you or I could be wrong and if we are true to ourselves at least, we want to be on the right team, don’t we?

When is a Mormon truly saves according to Mormon teaching?

Phoenix

04-11-2015, 11:09 AM

Saxon

04-11-2015, 11:44 AM

LDS doctrine is that the Bible teaches that eternal life is a destination that you arrive at by following steps:

1. Have faith in God and Christ.
2. Follow their commandments, in faith, for the rest of your life.

That is how to start down the path that leads to eternal life, and how to remain on that path so that you end up with eternal life at the end of the path.

What if the people who believe "the Bible teaches that you get instantaneous eternal life the second you start to have faith in Christ" are correct?

Still, the LDS should end up with eternal life even if they were wrong to believe that eternal life comes to those who who endure to the end in faithful obedience, so perhaps the question of when the faithful Christian gets eternal life is not one of the few essential saving doctrines.

Paul taught the Corinthians that the gospel doctrines of chief importance are:

Jesus atoned for our sins and was resurrected and seen by other people after His resurrection.

On the surface, what you have said is “good”. I can see where you are coming from, but knowing what you believe to a large degree I think that you are wrong.

Your version of the Trinity is different from mine. Your version has three personages, 1 the Father, 2 the Son 3 the Holy Ghost, three gods. My version if the Trinity is one God made up of three persons equal in all things The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are the one God, keeping with the Bible when it states that there is only one God.

I believe that salvation is instantaneous when you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. As a saved person you are to follow the commandments of God in faith, for the rest of your life or you will stop being a Christian because your life will no longer be that of a Christian. This idea gets people that believe in once saved always saved upset, but I don’t believe OSAS is supported by the Bible. If you stop being a Christian then you have not endured to the end. When you die physically you are removed from temptation and then you are out of danger of falling away.

The only way to be saved is by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and after that all your obedience is because you are saved, not to obtain salvation.

Jesus atoning for our sin and resurrection is the cornerstone of what was done in order for man to be offered salvation. God gives salvation as a gift and after we receive salvation we are obligated to live a Christ directed Christian life. All the works that count for anything are done after salvation is granted.

Our beliefs are definitely in opposition to one another.

Phoenix

04-13-2015, 07:02 PM

On the surface, what you have said is “good”.
And your beliefs seem to be good as well...on the surface.

I can see where you are coming from, but knowing what you believe to a large degree I think that you are wrong.
I can and do say the same about you.

Your version of the Trinity is different from mine.
True.

Your version has three personages, 1 the Father, 2 the Son 3 the Holy Ghost, three gods.
Correct, and it can be supported by Bible verses.

My version if the Trinity is one God made up of three persons equal in all things
Your version isn't supported by the Bible. Your "absolutely co-equal in all things" mantra can't be found in the Bible, and in fact is refuted by verses stating otherwise. Your version comes from a creed, not from Bible verses.

The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are the one God, keeping with the Bible when it states that there is only one God.
I believe that Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God. LDS official doctrine says they are one God. The difference is that when you say it, you mean it literally, and when I say it, I mean it metaphorically....as the Bible intended it to be meant.

But what does it matter who is right and wrong on that? Do all Christians who refuse to believe that the 3 Persons are co-equal, get sent to hell as a result of that belief? Is it one of those 3 or 4 essential doctrines that really matter, salvation-wise?

I believe that salvation is instantaneous when you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. As a saved person you are to follow the commandments of God in faith, for the rest of your life or you will stop being a Christian because your life will no longer be that of a Christian. This idea gets people that believe in once saved always saved upset, but I don’t believe OSAS is supported by the Bible.
So you and I both reject the idea of OSAS. But even if we didn't have the same belief about that, would it make one of us an unsaved, non-Christian cultist? I think not.

If you stop being a Christian then you have not endured to the end.
You and I believe the same thing on this one as well.

Our beliefs are definitely in opposition to one another.
Not in the places where I showed that they are not in opposition.

Saxon

04-14-2015, 09:06 PM

Correct, and it can be supported by Bible verses.

Your support will have to contradict at least 15 verses that confirm that there is only one God. Show me the Bible support, don’t just mention it. Oh wait a minute; there is no support.

Deuteronomy 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the Lord he is God; there is none else beside him.

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:

Deuteronomy 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand

2 Samuel 7:22 Wherefore thou art great, O Lord God: for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

1 Chronicles 17:20 O Lord, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

Psalm 83:18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is Jehovah, art the most high over all the earth.

Psalm 86:10 For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art God alone.

Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isaiah 45: 18 For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else.

Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

1 Corinthians 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Your version isn't supported by the Bible. Your "absolutely co-equal in all things" mantra can't be found in the Bible, and in fact is refuted by verses stating otherwise. Your version comes from a creed, not from Bible verses.

The Bible says that there is only one God and there is no more. The Bible calls the Father God. The Bible calls the Son God and the Bible calls the Holy Spirit God. There is only one God so the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are the one God.

I believe that Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God. LDS official doctrine says they are one God. The difference is that when you say it, you mean it literally, and when I say it, I mean it metaphorically....as the Bible intended it to be meant.

Where do you get the idea that it is meant to be taken metaphorically? It makes more sense to read it and take it as it is written without the guessing game.

But what does it matter who is right and wrong on that? Do all Christians who refuse to believe that the 3 Persons are co-equal, get sent to hell as a result of that belief? Is it one of those 3 or 4 essential doctrines that really matter, salvation-wise?

What is required for a person to gain salvation is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Learning doctrine is after a person is saved.

So you and I both reject the idea of OSAS. But even if we didn't have the same belief about that, would it make one of us an unsaved, non-Christian cultist? I think not.

I can agree with that.

Not in the places where I showed that they are not in opposition.

That is true. It is more correct to say that the majority of our beliefs are in opposition to one another.

Phoenix

04-15-2015, 02:33 PM

Saxon

04-15-2015, 09:59 PM

Paul wrote that although there are gods or things that are called gods, to us--to Christians--there is one God. And Paul identified that God as the Person who is Christ's Father. Jesus added that His God is also His Father, and that our God is His "Father who art in heaven."

So you have a problem if you're not LDS, because you have to come up with an explanation for how Jesus and Paul can say that the "only true God" is Jesus' Father, yet still believe that Jesus, too, is deity. The obvious answer is the one the LDS believe: That although our Father in Heaven is our only true God in the sense of being our creator, Jesus can be, and is, also a deity in His own right. Which means that there are multiple deities in the universe. That inescapable conclusion is what Trinitarians are forbidden to admit.

1 Corinthians 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
1 Corinthians 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Calling something a God and it actually being a God are two different things. Seeing that you choose to ignore the Bible when it declares that there is only one God and God stating that there is no other gods, he knows not any, you can and will believe what you will. Seeing that I believe the Bible, there is only one God that is God. You are welcome to your polytheist, none Christian beliefs if you want.

In Christianity, God became a man and his father is God (Trinity). The LDS explanation is not anywhere near the Bible. Trinitarians are not “forbidden” it admit your nonsense, they will not as it is total foolishness when a person believes the Bible.

Phoenix

04-16-2015, 01:51 PM

Trinitarians are not “forbidden” it admit your nonsense, they will not as it is total foolishness...
The spiritually blind will call the truth foolishness...

Saxon

04-16-2015, 11:03 PM

That is so true!!!

dberrie2000

04-20-2015, 04:52 AM

1 Corinthians 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
1 Corinthians 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Calling something a God and it actually being a God are two different things.

Anyone separating Jesus Christ(God the Son) out from the "one God" can in no way be considered a Trinitarian.

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

The "one God" of the Biblical NT was Jesus' God and Father:

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Apologette

04-20-2015, 07:50 AM

Hey, Saxon, ask this denier of Christ's grace, dberrie, whether or not he considers Satan a true and powerful god.

dberrie2000

04-21-2015, 05:28 AM

Hey, Saxon, ask this denier of Christ's grace, dberrie, whether or not he considers Satan a true and powerful god.

Paul might have:

2 Corinthians 4:4---King James Version (KJV)
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

dberrie2000

04-21-2015, 05:29 AM

Originally Posted by Saxon View Post

1 Corinthians 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
1 Corinthians 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Calling something a God and it actually being a God are two different things.

Anyone separating Jesus Christ(God the Son) out from the "one God" can in no way be considered a Trinitarian.

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

The "one God" of the Biblical NT was Jesus' God and Father:

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Bump for anyone

Saxon

04-22-2015, 02:34 PM

And your point is???

Saxon

04-22-2015, 03:32 PM

So you are not a Trinitarian because you have separated Jesus from the ONE God and made him, the Holy Ghost and the Father three separate gods.

Saxon

04-22-2015, 03:38 PM

Positional only but not a God in fact.

dberrie2000

04-23-2015, 04:42 AM

Anyone separating Jesus Christ(God the Son) out from the "one God" can in no way be considered a Trinitarian.

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

The "one God" of the Biblical NT was Jesus' God and Father:

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

So you are not a Trinitarian because you have separated Jesus from the ONE God ...

Saxon--1Timothy was written by Paul--not me. Not only did Paul separate out God the Son from the "one God"--there was no NT writer that designated Christ as the "one God". Christ was always separated out from the "one God" designation in the NT--even Christ Himself:

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Corinthians 8:6--King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

God the Son was never designated as the "one God" in the NT. The "one God" in the NT--was Jesus' God and Father:

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

The Father is the One which Jesus obtained His inheritance from:

Hebrews 1:1-9---King James Version (KJV)
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Saxon

04-24-2015, 08:22 PM

The Christian Trinity is the one God. You also have no concept of the incarnation, God becoming man. It is no wonder as all the hordes of gods in the Mormon thought were all men to begin with.

dberrie2000

04-27-2015, 04:36 AM

The Christian Trinity is the one God. You also have no concept of the incarnation, God becoming man. It is no wonder as all the hordes of gods in the Mormon thought were all men to begin with.

And just how are you relating your prejudice to the fact God the Son was never referred to as the "one God" in the Biblical NT--and was always separated out from that designation when using that term in the NT, IE--

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Corinthians 8:6--King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

God the Son was never designated as the "one God" in the NT. The "one God" in the NT--was Jesus' God and Father:

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

The Father is the One which Jesus obtained His inheritance from:

Hebrews 1:1-9---King James Version (KJV)
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Saxon

05-01-2015, 03:49 PM

And just how are you relating your prejudice to the fact God the Son was never referred to as the "one God" in the Biblical NT--and was always separated out from that designation when using that term in the NT, IE--

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Corinthians 8:6--King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

God the Son was never designated as the "one God" in the NT. The "one God" in the NT--was Jesus' God and Father:

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

The Father is the One which Jesus obtained His inheritance from:

Hebrews 1:1-9---King James Version (KJV)
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

The Bible clearly states that there is only one God that exists. Seeing that there is only one God and Jesus is identified in many places as God, he is the one God. The Holy Spirit is identified as God, he is the one God. The Father is identified as God, he is the one God. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the one God; the real Trinity.

Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one

John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Acts 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

alanmolstad

05-01-2015, 03:55 PM

Amen Saxon, well said!

dberrie2000

05-02-2015, 05:31 AM

And just how are you relating your prejudice to the fact God the Son was never referred to as the "one God" in the Biblical NT--and was always separated out from that designation when using that term in the NT, IE--

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Corinthians 8:6--King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

God the Son was never designated as the "one God" in the NT. The "one God" in the NT--was Jesus' God and Father:

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

The Father is the One which Jesus obtained His inheritance from:

Hebrews 1:1-9---King James Version (KJV)
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

The Bible clearly states that there is only one God that exists.

Again--would that be this "one God"?

1 Corinthians 8:6--King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Seeing that there is only one God and Jesus is identified in many places as God, he is the one God.

Again--the NT writers never identified God the Son as the "one God". Jesus Christ was always separated out from the "one God" designation--and placed in another category whenever the "one God" designation was used--even when Christ was identifies within the same p***age of scripture, IE--

1 Timothy 2:5King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

The "one God" is identified as the God and Father of Jesus Christ:

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

The Holy Spirit is identified as God, he is the one God.

Please give us any NT verse that identifies the Holy Spirit as the "one God".

The Father is identified as God, he is the one God. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the one God; the real Trinity.

Please give us any verse of scripture that mentions the "Trinity"--or any NT verse that identifies the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as the "one God".

Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

The NT writers did not adopt the Deutero-Isaiah theology--obviously. The Divine Council of the Gods was a know fact in OT theology:

Psalm 82:1---King James Version (KJV)
82 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

Paul also accepted that even satan is a god:

2 Corinthians 4:4---King James Version (KJV)
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

But not part of the NT Godhead--which consisted of this:

1) God the Father
2) God the Son
3) God the Holy Ghost

Saxon

05-02-2015, 08:09 AM

dberrie2000

05-03-2015, 04:23 AM

Try answering the stated questions that I ask. The Bible clearly states that there is only one God that exists. Try to answer and keep in mind the Bible says;

Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Once you can understand what you are reading and realize that the Bible states that there is only one God that exists I will answer the rest if you can remember the concept of only one God that exists.

Try to keep in mind the NT writers did not adopt the Deutero-Isaiah theology:

1 Corinthians 8:6--King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

The OT writers believed in the Council of the gods:

Psalm 82:1--King James Version (KJV)
82 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

Prior to the second temple period--the OT writers believed in the reality of the Divine Council--and frequently made reference to it.

Paul believed there were other gods than the Godhead also:

2 Corinthians 4:4---King James Version (KJV)
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

So--was Paul polytheistic, according to the modern definition?

noun poly·the·ism --Merriam Webster

: the belief that there is more than one god

Saxon

05-03-2015, 07:51 AM

Try to keep in mind the NT writers did not adopt the Deutero-Isaiah theology:

1 Corinthians 8:6--King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

The OT writers believed in the Council of the gods:

Psalm 82:1--King James Version (KJV)
82 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

Keep in mind that the New Testament writers did remain true to the Old Testament theology. Whenever the New Testament writers referred their readers the scriptures they were direction them the Old Testament as the New Testament had not been written yet.

I do wish that I could be as careless about the Bible as you are then thing would be much easier. Mind you if that were the case then there would never be any coming to the truth. Your slackness with the Bible is going to cause you great despair when you wake up one day and find yourself physically DEAD.

Isaiah 43:10 and Isaiah 44:8 is sufficient to tell you that God said that there is no other God but him. So you still want to believe LDS that there are hordes of gods that have been created over the eons of time? How can you, who claims to be a Bible believer, sit there with your bare face hanging out, and decide that there is more than one God?

Seeing that the Bible is clear that there are no other gods but one, what is the Psalm writer saying? He can’t be saying that there is any other real God because the Bible is clear that there is only one God. There are those that are called gods but that does not make them Gods in reality. If you can read Isaiah 43:10 and Isaiah 44:8 and still want to believe that there is more than one God while claiming that you believe the Bible; there is no hope for you.

Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Prior to the second temple period--the OT writers believed in the reality of the Divine Council--and frequently made reference to it.

The only way that statement would be true is if you do not believe the Bible. (See Isaiah 43:10 and Isaiah 44:8) There is no reference to any Divine Council in the context that you support, more than one God.

This is another incomplete answer, show the references you are alluding to.

Paul believed there were other gods than the Godhead also:

2 Corinthians 4:4---King James Version (KJV)
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

So--was Paul polytheistic, according to the modern definition?

Paul believed the Old Testament, there is only one God. (See 1 Corinthians 8:4 to 6) There is those that are called gods but that does not make them Gods in reality. If you can read Isaiah 43:10 Isaiah 44:8 and 1 Corinthians 8:4 to 6 and still want to believe that there is more than one God while claiming that you believe the Bible; there is no hope for you.

1 Corinthians 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
1 Corinthians 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

noun poly•the•ism --Merriam Webster

: the belief that there is more than one god

By this definition, which is correct, all LDS are polytheists which is contrary to the Bible that declares that there is only one God. Are you sure that you really believe the Bible???

dberrie2000

05-04-2015, 04:39 AM

Seeing that the Bible is clear that there are no other gods but one, what is the Psalm writer saying? He can’t be saying that there is any other real God because the Bible is clear that there is only one God. There are those that are called gods but that does not make them Gods in reality.

OT writers believed in the reality of the Divine Council of the Gods--the scholars are now in consensus with that:

http://www.michaelsheiser.com/diss%20defense%20presentation.pdf

https://gematriacodes.wordpress.com/2012/12/12/god-the-divine-council-elohim/

Paul and the NT writers believed in the "one God"--and it was not God the Son:

1 Corinthians 8:6--King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

And this "one God" was the God and Father of Jesus Christ--and all of mankind:

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

1 Peter 1:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Ephesians 1:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

The Biblical NT testifies that God the Son--the Savior and Redeemer of the world--- had a God and Father also.

Hebrews 1:1-9---King James Version (KJV)
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Saxon

05-05-2015, 09:12 PM

OT writers believed in the reality of the Divine Council of the Gods--the scholars are now in consensus with that:

http://www.michaelsheiser.com/diss%2...esentation.pdf

https://gematriacodes.wordpress.com/...ouncil-elohim/

I am not familiar with Michael Sheiser. But from what I read from the link that you posted, I cannot agree with him whatsoever. He seems to forget that the Israelites were monotheists, hard core. To me your link is worthless as it also contradicts the bible.

Paul and the NT writers believed in the "one God"--and it was not God the Son:

Your concept of the “one God” and the “Trinity” are not in accordance with the Bible. Paul and the New Testament writers believed that there is only one God and they claim that the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are the one God, the Trinity from a biblical sorce.

1 Corinthians 8:6--King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

And this "one God" was the God and Father of Jesus Christ--and all of mankind:

If you compare Bible scripture with Bible scripture you will soon discover that you are twisting scripture to your own thoughts, not the thoughts and intent of the Bible writers. I hope that you notice that even in your references that you are also claiming “one God”. Instead of the myriad of gods that the LDS claim.

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

1 Peter 1:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Ephesians 1:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

The Biblical NT testifies that God the Son--the Savior and Redeemer of the world--- had a God and Father also.

Hebrews 1:1-9---King James Version (KJV)
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Your lack of knowledge of the Trinity and the incarnation of Christ leads you to your false conclusions. Read the Bible for what it says instead of what the LDS say it says. You should also start believing the Bible as well.

dberrie2000

05-06-2015, 04:12 AM

OT writers believed in the reality of the Divine Council of the Gods--the scholars are now in consensus with that:

http://www.michaelsheiser.com/diss%20defense%20presentation.pdf

https://gematriacodes.wordpress.com/2012/12/12/god-the-divine-council-elohim/

Paul and the NT writers believed in the "one God"--and it was not God the Son:

1 Corinthians 8:6--King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

And this "one God" was the God and Father of Jesus Christ--and all of mankind:

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

1 Peter 1:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Ephesians 1:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

The Biblical NT testifies that God the Son--the Savior and Redeemer of the world--- had a God and Father also.

Hebrews 1:1-9---King James Version (KJV)
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

I am not familiar with Michael Sheiser. But from what I read from the link that you posted, I cannot agree with him whatsoever. He seems to forget that the Israelites were monotheists, hard core. To me your link is worthless as it also contradicts the bible.

That's Michael Heiser--and what do you believe it contradicts about the Bible?

Psalm 82:1---King James Version (KJV)
82 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

Again--there isn't one credible scholar that I am aware of--that denies the Israelites, prior to the second temple era--did not believe in the reality of the Divine Council of the Gods. That includes writers of the OT Biblical text--as Psalm82 shows.

Your concept of the “one God” and the “Trinity” are not in accordance with the Bible.

Are you saying the NT writers were wrong?

1 Corinthians 8:6--King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Could you give us one quote where NT writers included God the Son into the "one God" designation? One NT reference where it mentions the term "Trinity"?

Paul and the New Testament writers believed that there is only one God and they claim that the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are the one God, the Trinity from a biblical sorce.

Please give us a Biblical NT quote where the Father, Son and Holy Ghost were included in the "one God" designation. "One"--yes--but never the "one God", IE--

John 17:20-22---King James Version (KJV)
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Again--whenever NT writers mentioned the "one God"--it was always the God and Father of Jesus Christ--and they always separated out God the Son--and placed Him in another designation:

1 Corinthians 8:6--King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

If you compare Bible scripture with Bible scripture you will soon discover that you are twisting scripture to your own thoughts, not the thoughts and intent of the Bible writers.

What do you consider as "twisting scripture" about the scriptures included in my above post--or the scriptures being independent of the thoughts and intents of "Bible writers"?

You do realize 1Cor, Ephesians, 1Tomothy, etc--are books found within the Biblical NT?

IOW--I post the scriptures--you deny their truth.

Your lack of knowledge of the Trinity ...

The Biblical writers must have lacked knowledge about the Trinity also--they never once mentioned any such term.

Saxon--any NT writer who separated out God the Son from the "one God"--and placed Him in another designation--could never qualify to accept your theology.

Saxon

05-06-2015, 11:38 PM

That's Michael Heiser--and what do you believe it contradicts about the Bible?

Psalm 82:1---King James Version (KJV)
82 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

Again--there isn't one credible scholar that I am aware of--that denies the Israelites, prior to the second temple era--did not believe in the reality of the Divine Council of the Gods. That includes writers of the OT Biblical text--as Psalm82 shows.

The Bible is clear, there is only one God. Any one that says different is in contradiction of the Bible.

Psalm 82 is not claiming a bunch of other gods. Scripture does not contradict scripture. When I say scripture I only include Bible as there is no more scripture.

Are you saying the NT writers were wrong?

1 Corinthians 8:6--King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Could you give us one quote where NT writers included God the Son into the "one God" designation? One NT reference where it mentions the term "Trinity"?

No, I am not saying that the New Testament writers were wrong. I am saying that you are wrong. From what I have been reading from your posts over the months, I have come to the conclusion that you have no true Bible knowledge at all.

There is only one God. The Father is identified as God. The Son is identified as God and the Holy Ghost is identified as God. There is only one God, therefore the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are the one God.

What do you consider as "twisting scripture" about the scriptures included in my above post--or the scriptures being independent of the thoughts and intents of "Bible writers"?

You do realize 1Cor, Ephesians, 1Tomothy, etc--are books found within the Biblical NT?

IOW--I post the scriptures--you deny their truth.

Twisting scripture is when you try to make scripture contradict what is clearly stated. The Bible says only one God and you say more than one God. The Bible says not of works and you say works are needed.

Yes I know that those books are found in the New Testament of the Bible.

You post scriptures and I deny that you are using them as the authors intended. The scriptures are true but your use of them is not right.

The Biblical writers must have lacked knowledge about the Trinity also--they never once mentioned any such term.

The Bible authors knew of the Trinity concept but not the trem. The Trinity concept is directly from the Bible. Because you do not know the Bible is not a reason for anyone to deny it’s truth.

Saxon--any NT writer who separated out God the Son from the "one God"--and placed Him in another designation--could never qualify to accept your theology.

Do you have any idea what the incarnation is all about. (God becoming a man) Of course you don’t.

dberrie2000

05-12-2015, 05:04 AM

That's Michael Heiser--and what do you believe it contradicts about the Bible?

Psalm 82:1---King James Version (KJV)
82 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

Again--there isn't one credible scholar that I am aware of--that denies the Israelites, prior to the second temple era--did not believe in the reality of the Divine Council of the Gods. That includes writers of the OT Biblical text--as Psalm82 shows.

Are you saying the NT writers were wrong?

1 Corinthians 8:6--King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Could you give us one quote where NT writers included God the Son into the "one God" designation? One NT reference where it mentions the term "Trinity"?

Please give us a Biblical NT quote where the Father, Son and Holy Ghost were included in the "one God" designation. "One"--yes--but never the "one God", IE--

John 17:20-22---King James Version (KJV)
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Again--whenever NT writers mentioned the "one God"--it was always the God and Father of Jesus Christ--and they always separated out God the Son--and placed Him in another designation:

1 Corinthians 8:6--King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

The Bible is clear, there is only one God. Any one that says different is in contradiction of the Bible.

Then why do you insist on something that is in contradiction to the Biblical NT?

1 Corinthians 8:6--King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

In case you did not notice--God the Son is not included in the "one God" of the NT--ever.

Psalm 82 is not claiming a bunch of other gods.

What is it about Psalm 82 you are in denial of?

Psalm 82:1---King James Version (KJV)
82 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

Paul not only separated the "one God"--and God the Son--he also believed in the reality of another god:

2 Corinthians 4:4---King James Version (KJV)
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Was Paul polytheistic?

Saxon

05-12-2015, 01:35 PM

Trinitarianism isn't based in Christianity, its roots are in Paganism. The Bible never supports the trinity idea, it is a concept that was created through various councils with the creeds that came from the philosophies of men. Berrie gave you a list of scriptures directly from the Bible showing that it doesn't teach what you believe. The verses you gave are very out of context. For example "I and my Father are one" doesn't mean trinitarianism. This particular verse refers to being one in purpose. The Savior prays that the saints become one in Him as He is one in the Father. This shows that Jesus didn't mean what you believe. If Jesus meant what you claim, we would all become one m***ive trinity. We are to be one in Jesus meaning we are to make His will ours as the Father's is Jesus's will.

You have no idea of what you are talking about. (See Do Mormons believe in the Trinity?) This is from an LDS web site. There is no indication that LDS do not have a concept of the Trinity. The term is not used as it is not a Bible term. Godhead is used for the same aspect of how God exists. I do realize that the Mormon concept is in contradiction to the Bible concept of the Trinity but the idea is there and from Mormon sources. Your “paganism roots” is false.

Do Mormons believe in the Trinity? (http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/mormonism-101#C5)

Mormons most commonly use the term “Godhead” to refer to the Trinity. The first article of faith for the Latter-day Saints reads: “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.” Latter-day Saints believe God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are one in will and purpose but are not literally the same being or substance, as conceptions of the Holy Trinity commonly imply.

Your not being able to read and comprehend what is said is unbelievable. I know that Mormons are generally well educated and can read and comprehend many books that are difficult to grasp but when it comes to the Bible, there is no ability to understand even the simplest concepts.

There is only one God. The Father is identified as God. The Son is identified as God. The Holy Ghost is identified as God. Therefore the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are the one God. Nothing too hard or pagan about that. What is pagan is the idea that there is more than one God in existence. Now who believes that? Not Christians.

dberrie2000

05-14-2015, 04:20 AM

dberrie2000

05-14-2015, 04:28 AM

There is only one God. The Father is identified as God. The Son is identified as God. The Holy Ghost is identified as God. Therefore the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are the one God.

Could you give us any NT verse that states the Father, Son and Holy Ghost is the "one God"?

How could the NT writers believe that--and testify to this truth?

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Nothing too hard or pagan about that. What is pagan is the idea that there is more than one God in existence. Now who believes that? Not Christians.

Are you saying that Paul was not Christian?

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

True--there was only One that was designated as the "one God" in the Biblical NT---and it was not God the Son.

Were OT writers Christian?

Psalm 82:1---King James Version (KJV)
82 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

disciple

05-14-2015, 05:19 AM

Could you give us any NT verse that states the Father, Son and Holy Ghost is the "one God"?

How could the NT writers believe that--and testify to this truth?

"This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one." 1John 5:6-7

dberrie2000

05-14-2015, 05:21 PM

"This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one." 1John 5:6-7

But that only connects it in this context:

John 17:20-23---King James Version (KJV)
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

To make your point--it would have to designate the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as the "one God".

Where do we find that designation in the Biblical NT?

Again--the NT writers never designated anyone other than God the Father as the "one God", IE--

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Anyone who testified to that truth could never be ***igned a belief of Trinitarianism. Quite to the contrary.

God the Son was always separated from the "one God" of the NT.

Saxon

05-15-2015, 10:12 PM

Saxon

05-15-2015, 10:48 PM

Could you give us any NT verse that states the Father, Son and Holy Ghost is the "one God"?

How could the NT writers believe that--and testify to this truth?

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

You have no concept of the eternal God, Father Son and Holy Ghost being the one God. The Son who is the eternal God in conjunction with the Father and Holy Ghost became a man and what you are seeing but not grasping is, God in the form and fashion of a man. There is nothing contradictory about it, it is your ignorance of what the Bible actually teaches

You do not know the Bible. Who was the word that was with God and was God? He is the same word that was made flesh, and dwelt among us.

I know that Mormons believe that the Father is God. John 1:1 says that the Word was with God and was God. John 1:14 indicates the word is Jesus and Acts 5:3 and 4 indicates that the Holy Ghost is God. Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 44:8, Isaiah 45:22 and Isaiah 46:9 clearly state that there is ONLY ONE God, a fact that Paul confirms in 1 Corinthians 8:4.

Fact: there is only one God. Fact: the Father is called God. Fact: the Son is called God. Fact: the Holy Ghost is called God. Fact: the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are the one God.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Acts 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
1 Corinthians 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

Are you saying that Paul was not Christian?

I would really like to know how you arrived at that conclusion. It wasn’t from reading my posts, if you actually do read them. Of course Paul was a Christian.

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

True--there was only One that was designated as the "one God" in the Biblical NT---and it was not God the Son.

See the first response in this post.

Were OT writers Christian?

Psalm 82:1---King James Version (KJV)
82 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

The Old Testament writers were not called Christians, but they were of the same belief as Christians. They were on the other side of the cross and were waiting for the Christ to come to save them. We are on this side of the cross and trust that Christ has saved those that believe.

Because you do not understand Psalms 82 does not change the fact that there is only one God that exists.

Saxon

05-15-2015, 10:51 PM

Look to other posts that I put up today. I am no going to repeat it.

dberrie2000

05-16-2015, 04:04 AM

Then why do you insist on something that is in contradiction to the Biblical NT?

1 Corinthians 8:6--King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

In case you did not notice--God the Son is not included in the "one God" of the NT--ever.

What is it about Psalm 82 you are in denial of?

Psalm 82:1---King James Version (KJV)
82 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

Paul not only separated the "one God"--and God the Son--he also believed in the reality of another god:

2 Corinthians 4:4---King James Version (KJV)
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Was Paul polytheistic?

You have no concept of the eternal God, Father Son and Holy Ghost being the one God.

Obviously--that does nothing to explain why the NT writers always separated out God the Son from the "one God" of the NT.

1 Corinthians 8:6--King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Ever?? You do not know the Bible.

Then give us a NT quote where God the Son and the Holy Ghost were included in the "one God" of the NT. As the verses above point out--God the Son was separated out of the "one God"--every time.

Who was the word that was with God and was God? He is the same word that was made flesh, and dwelt among us.

God the Son. Again--God the Son was never included in the "one God" of the NT.

There is nothing in Psalms 82 that I deny. What I deny is the idea that you are trying to make a case for the polytheistic idea of more than one God.

Psalm 82:1 makes that case for us:

Psalm 82:1---King James Version (KJV)
82 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

Ancient Israel believed in the Divine Council of the Gods. That, the scholars are in consensus of--includes OT writers.

Are you saying the OT writers testified of a false belief?

Paul was not a polytheist, see 1 Corinthians 8:4.

Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

1 Corinthians 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

The NT writers did not adopt the Deutero-Isaiah theology--and Paul did not include God the Son in the "one God"--which you are in denial of:

1 Corinthians 8:6--King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Anyone who postulates God the Son had a God and Father, nor separated out Christ from the "one God"-- could never be labeled a Trinitarian:

1 Peter 1:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Jesus Christ was just exactly whom He claimed to be--the Son of God--both, as to His Spirit--and His Flesh.

Saxon

05-16-2015, 05:48 AM

Then give us a NT quote where God the Son and the Holy Ghost were included in the "one God" of the NT. As the verses above point out--God the Son was separated out of the "one God"--every time.

There is only one God. The Father is identified as God. The Son is identified as God and the Holy Ghost is identified as God. There is only one God, therefore the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are the one God. That is all in the New testament, look it up.

God the Son. Again--God the Son was never included in the "one God" of the NT.

The Bible says that there is only one God, so who was the word that was with God and was God? He is the same word that was made flesh, and dwelt among us.

Psalm 82:1 makes that case for us:

Psalm 82:1---King James Version (KJV)
82 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

Ancient Israel believed in the Divine Council of the Gods. That, the scholars are in consensus of--includes OT writers.

Are you saying the OT writers testified of a false belief?

The Bible says that there is only one God so all the non-understanding will not change that fact.

You know that I am not saying that the Old Testament writers are testifying of a false belief. You are in error because you refuse to believe the Bible when it says that there is only one God.

The NT writers did not adopt the Deutero-Isaiah theology--and Paul did not include God the Son in the "one God"--which you are in denial of:

1 Corinthians 8:6--King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Now you seem to imply that the Old Testament and the New Testament are teaching different theologies. Like I have been saying, you have no idea of what the Bible teaches.

Anyone who postulates God the Son had a God and Father, nor separated out Christ from the "one God"-- could never be labeled a Trinitarian:

1 Peter 1:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Jesus Christ was just exactly whom He claimed to be--the Son of God--both, as to His Spirit--and His Flesh.

You will know better than what you are now dispensing when you start to read the bible for what it is saying and not for what the LDS tell you it is saying

dberrie2000

05-16-2015, 05:52 PM

The Bible says that there is only one God so all the non-understanding will not change that fact.

That is correct--and the NT writers identified who the "one God was:

1 Corinthians 8:6--King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Where does one find God the Son--or God the Holy Ghost included in the "one God" of the NT?

You know that I am not saying that the Old Testament writers are testifying of a false belief. You are in error because you refuse to believe the Bible when it says that there is only one God.

That's what the NT writers testified to:

1 Corinthians 8:6--King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

That only includes God the Father into the "one God" designation--even when God the Son is used in the same verse.

Now you seem to imply that the Old Testament and the New Testament are teaching different theologies.

Obviously--the NT writers did not adopt the Deutero-Isaiah theology. Anyone who separates out the "one God" as God the Father--and places God the Son into another designation can never fit the Deutero-Isaiah pattern, nor any Trinitarian theology.

And traditional Judaism could never bear the weight of having God the Father and God the Son--it's pure polytheism to them. Any traditional Jew would call a Trinitarian theology a polytheistic theology.

It can fit the Divine Council pattern of the OT writers, prior to the Deutero-Isaiah redactors:

Psalm 82:1---King James Version (KJV)
82 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

dberrie2000

05-16-2015, 05:57 PM

Anyone who postulates God the Son had a God and Father, nor separated out Christ from the "one God"-- could never be labeled a Trinitarian:

1 Peter 1:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Jesus Christ was just exactly whom He claimed to be--the Son of God--both, as to His Spirit--and His Flesh.

You will know better than what you are now dispensing when you start to read the bible for what it is saying and not for what the LDS tell you it is saying

What is there about 1Peter1:3 are you claiming is what the LDS are telling me?

Ephesians 1:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Was Paul and Christ LDS also?

Saxon

05-16-2015, 08:48 PM

You seem to ignore the rest of the Bible when convenient. You know, resort to Articles of Faith number 8.

Saxon

05-16-2015, 08:50 PM

I have given my answer to that already.

dberrie2000

05-17-2015, 03:56 AM

What is there about 1Peter1:3 are you claiming is what the LDS are telling me?

Ephesians 1:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Was Paul and Christ LDS also?

You seem to ignore the rest of the Bible when convenient. You know, resort to Articles of Faith number 8.

What is it about the "rest of the Bible" that you believe does not agree with the above scriptures?

Hebrews 1:1-9---King James Version (KJV)
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Saxon

05-17-2015, 05:17 AM

It is not the scriptures, it is you, using them not in the way the writers intended. You try to make them conform to LDS falsehoods.

dberrie2000

05-18-2015, 04:50 AM

It is not the scriptures, it is you, using them not in the way the writers intended. You try to make them conform to LDS falsehoods.

Could you explain what you find false about any of the scriptures I posted--or what it is about them that defy LDS theology?

It certainly defies faith alone theology.

Saxon--your taint so!!! responses are neither convincing nor compelling.

Hebrews 1:1-9---King James Version (KJV)
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Ephesians 1:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

1 Peter 1:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

1 Corinthians 8:6--King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Saxon

05-18-2015, 05:14 AM

Could you explain what you find false about any of the scriptures I posted--or what it is about them that defy LDS theology?

There is nothing false about the scriptures themselves. The fact that you are trying to make them conform to the false LDS gospel is what I find to be the error.

It certainly defies faith alone theology.

I don’t hold to the “faith alone” theology as YOU see it so that statement is not helpful to your cause.

Saxon--your taint so!!! responses are neither convincing nor compelling.

That is because you are programmed to filter everything through LDS filters and of course you are forced to reject the truth for LDS false teachings.

dberrie2000

05-18-2015, 12:56 PM

Could you explain what you find false about any of the scriptures I posted--or what it is about them that defy LDS theology?

It certainly defies faith alone theology.

Saxon--your taint so!!! responses are neither convincing nor compelling.

Hebrews 1:1-9---King James Version (KJV)
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Ephesians 1:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

1 Peter 1:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

1 Corinthians 8:6--King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

There is nothing false about the scriptures themselves.

Then faith alone theology is false.

I don’t hold to the “faith alone” theology as YOU see it so that statement is not helpful to your cause.

Yes you do. Your theology is salvation through a faith without works. If you disagree--then please post us what works you add to faith for salvation.

That is because you are programmed to filter everything through LDS filters and of course you are forced to reject the truth for LDS false teachings.

Are you referring to these truths?

Hebrews 1:1-9---King James Version (KJV)
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Ephesians 1:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

1 Peter 1:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

1 Corinthians 8:6--King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Saxon

05-22-2015, 03:59 PM

Yes you do. Your theology is salvation through a faith without works. If you disagree--then please post us what works you add to faith for salvation.

How can I believe in Faith alone when I keep telling you that I do not believe that faith saves. For that matter grace does not save either. What saves anyone that is saved is God, and that is only because he has an at***ude of grace towards mankind. If any one believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, God saves that anyone because he wants to and because he loves us. There is nothing you can do to get saved.

Why do you refuse to believe Ephesians 2:8 to 10 and are so willing to believe any verse, when taken out of context, that contradicts it???

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Are you referring to these truths?

Hebrews 1:1-9---King James Version (KJV)
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Ephesians 1:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

1 Peter 1:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

1 Corinthians 8:6--King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

The LDS do not know what the Bible is about, neither do you. Just because you have no idea what those verses are about is no reason for a Bible believer to fall into false teachings. The Bible is absolutely foreign to you and the LDS.

Saxon

05-22-2015, 05:34 PM

You obviously don't have a clue as to what dberrie is getting at. The NT teaches there is one God TO US, that's from Paul, and that is the Father. The scriptures don't say there no other gods period, there are just no other gods to us. The OT testifies to the plurality of gods as does the NT. Lord of lords and king of kings ring a bell? Who are these lords and kings? The exalted saints who become gods which, by the way, gaining eternal life is exactly what becoming a god is.

No, it is obvious that dberrie doesn’t have a clue what the Bible is saying or getting at. Where does the “TO US” come from, it isn’t the Bible. Total drivel.

You seem to know more than God does. He said that he doesn’t know any. He also said that there was no god before him and neither shall there be after him. Admit that you do not believe the Bible. There is no plurality of gods whatsoever. No one is going to become a god. That is a fairy tale.

Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Saxon

05-23-2015, 08:23 AM

It doesn't come from the Bible? I thought it did. I guess I found this in a mother goose book:
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
This nursery rhyme, since you don't think it's in the Bible, says to us there is one God. Oh, then it separates the Father and the Son. Just saying.

This is typical, you rip one verse out of context to make it imply that Paul is saying that there is more than one God. In 1 Corinthians 8:4, Paul makes it quite clear and unmistakable, unless you are willing to be totally dishonest in how you read, that there is none other God but one. 1 Corinthians 8:5 says that there be that are called gods. Being called gods doesn’t mean that it is a god. With Paul’s testimony in 1 Corinthians 8:4, stating that there is none other God but one, it is most obvious that Paul is not indicating that these “gods” that he is speaking of are in any way related to any notion that they should be construed to be a real God.

To read 1 Corinthians 8:6 in the context that it is written and come up with the idea that Paul is indicating that “to us” should mean that we only serve one god and ignore the others, is a nursery rhyme/fairy tale. You are dishonest to the text, the whole Bible and to your selfe.

1 Corinthians 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
1 Corinthians 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Nobody becomes gods? Then the scriptures lie about us gaining eternal life. To gain eternal life is to become a god. Please use scriptures in context. In this case, beside means equal to. Doesn't mean none others exist. Where does God say no other gods exist at all? Nowhere.

Show me where the Bible, book, chapter and verse, that equates “eternal life” to becoming a god. John 17:3 states that eternal life is to know the only true God. 1 John 5:11 says that eternal life is in his Son. To have eternal life is to be “in Christ”, who is God, not to become a god, but to come to the only true God.

The Bible says nothing about eternal life being related to the devilish idea that you can become a god. See Genesis 3:4 and 5 to see just where the idea that you can be a god comes from. Satan fed that morsel of lie to Eve and she ignored God and so did Adam and now we are all in sin until we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. You too have swallowed the same lie and support your heresy by ignoring the Bible for the futile belief that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God.

You ask me to use scriptures in context! You don’t know what that means judging from how you misuse the context of the Bible. What is the case that you are referring to that you insist that “beside” means equal to? (Book, chapter and verse)

“Where does God say that no other God exists?” Try Isaiah 43:10, “before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me”. Also Isaiah 44:8, “Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any”. There is more but I am not going to be looking for you when the truth is that you really don’t want to know.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Genesis 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

dberrie2000

08-17-2016, 01:21 PM

Then faith alone theology is false.

Yes you do. Your theology is salvation through a faith without works. If you disagree--then please post us what works you add to faith for salvation.

Are you referring to these truths?

Hebrews 1:1-9---King James Version (KJV)
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Ephesians 1:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

1 Peter 1:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

1 Corinthians 8:6--King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

How can I believe in Faith alone when I keep telling you that I do not believe that faith saves. For that matter grace does not save either. What saves anyone that is saved is God, and that is only because he has an at***ude of grace towards mankind. If any one believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, God saves that anyone because he wants to and because he loves us.

The faith alone theology preaches one is saved through a faith without works--regardless of what you or anyone else believes.

Sola fide---From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also known as justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and some parts of the Restoration Movement.

The doctrine of sola fide ***erts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith alone, excluding all "works".

There is nothing you can do to get saved.

Then you would consider this false doctrine?

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew 7:19-21----King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Acts 5:31-32---King James Version (KJV)
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

1 Timothy 4:16King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

1 John 1:7King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9--King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Berean

01-16-2017, 10:37 AM

The faith alone theology preaches one is saved through a faith without works--regardless of what you or anyone else believes.

And that is total nonsense, regardless of what you say. I have personally explained this to you myself, dozens and dozens of times and many others have done so as well. So you know better. The Bible is clear that works don't count towards your salvation but when you are saved you will have the desire to do good works. You have seen the Scriptures that prove this and every other false dilemma you present over and over again, many, many times. You never as much as acknowledge the Scriptures we post that absolutely prove you wrong, much less address them. This is intellectually dishonest. And continuing to stir the pot in this manner, is not only disingenuous, but points to a darkened heart with evil intent. Your heart is darkened because of your sin and until you turn from idol worship and to faith in Christ alone, the Bible insists the lake of fire is your eternal future.

Sola fide---From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also known as justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and some parts of the Restoration Movement.

The doctrine of sola fide ***erts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith alone, excluding all "works".

The Bible is my reference, for all things concerning Christian faith and practice, not Wikipedia. The Bible clearly teaches that that having faith alone is all the "works" one must perform to be saved. And evidence of that salvation is good works, not the other way around. Salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ... NOT of works. Eph 2:8-10.

You know the drill. You've seen all the verses we post that prove you wrong. You probably have them memorized so you don't accidentally post one and **** your false argument.

Then you would consider this false doctrine?

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew 7:19-21----King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Acts 5:31-32---King James Version (KJV)
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

1 Timothy 4:16King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

1 John 1:7King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9--King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Yes. This is clearly false doctrine as you espouse it, because these verses should be understood in light of the rest of the Scriptures. Especially the ones you keep avoiding because they prove your false dilemmas wrong.

dberrie2000

02-06-2017, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Then you would consider this false doctrine?

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew 7:19-21----King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Acts 5:31-32---King James Version (KJV)
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

1 Timothy 4:16King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

1 John 1:7King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9--King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Yes. This is clearly false doctrine as you espouse it, because these verses should be understood in light of the rest of the Scriptures.

But that is just the usual "taint so" response of those whose theology is violated by the posted scriptures.

Care to address the above scriptures?

dberrie2000

02-06-2017, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post The faith alone theology preaches one is saved through a faith without works--regardless of what you or anyone else believes.

And that is total nonsense, regardless of what you say.

Fair enough. Please list --what works the faith alone believe is needed for salvation to occur?

dberrie2000

02-21-2017, 06:20 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post The faith alone theology preaches one is saved through a faith without works--regardless of what you or anyone else believes.

Quote Originally Posted by Berean View PostAnd that is total nonsense, regardless of what you say.

Fair enough. Please list --what works the faith alone believe is needed for salvation to occur?

Bump for anyone. This seems to be the standard reply of the faith alone theology. What works do the faith alone add to their faith to obtain salvation?

If they do not add any acts of obedience to their faith in obtaining salvation--then they have a salvation through a faith without works:

Sola fide---From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also known as justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and some parts of the Restoration Movement.

The doctrine of sola fide ***erts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith alone, excluding all "works".

How does that collate with the Biblical NT witness?

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew 7:19-21----King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Acts 5:31-32---King James Version (KJV)
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

1 Timothy 4:16--King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

1 John 1:7--King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9--King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Saxon

02-21-2017, 02:01 PM

Fair enough. Please list --what works the faith alone believe is needed for salvation to occur?

Bump for anyone. This seems to be the standard reply of the faith alone theology. What works do the faith alone add to their faith to obtain salvation?

If they do not add any acts of obedience to their faith in obtaining salvation--then they have a salvation through a faith without works:

There is no works to list to obtain salvation. Salvation is a gift from God. Works that are required come after a person has salvation.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

dberrie2000

02-21-2017, 03:13 PM

There is no works to list to obtain salvation.

Thanks, Saxon. Personally--I don't understand the reluctance of those of the faith alone theology to deny that, IE--

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post The faith alone theology preaches one is saved through a faith without works--regardless of what you or anyone else believes.

Originally Posted by Berean View Post And that is total nonsense, regardless of what you say.

That is the usual response of the faith alone.

Salvation is a gift from God. Works that are required come after a person has salvation.

So--then these were saved previous to the remission of sins?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Could you point us to where it states in there one is saved previous to any works? It states we are saved by grace, and not works.

So--if you believe Paul was testifying works is not necessary for salvation to occur--could you explain this?

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9--King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Saxon

02-21-2017, 08:57 PM

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Could you point us to where it states in there one is saved previous to any works? It states we are saved by grace, and not works.

Ephesians 2:8-9. Grace means it is not of works. Gift means that it is not of works. Not of works means not of works. It can’t be any clearer than that.

You obviously have no understanding of Acts 2:38 as you seem to think that it is saying that a person is baptized to be saved. In the light of Ephesians 2:8-9 stating that salvation is an act of grace by God and that salvation is a gift of God and that salvation is not of works you are seriously deluded, or more to the point, you do not know what you are talking about. Acts 2:38 is saying that you should be baptized because of (for) the remission of sins. Baptism is to be done to those that have received salvation already. In Acts 8:36 to 38 the eunuch asked Philip; “what doth hinder me to be baptized?” Philip said that the eunuch had to believe with all his heart. Believing is what God requires of any person and God will save them by his grace and not of works. Baptism is for the saved.

Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Acts 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

So--if you believe Paul was testifying works is not necessary for salvation to occur--could you explain this?

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9--King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

That is what is going to happen to the ones that do not believe, the unsaved. Paul is not talking about the saved in your quote.

dberrie2000

02-22-2017, 06:36 AM

Ephesians 2:8-9. Grace means it is not of works. Gift means that it is not of works. Not of works means not of works. It can’t be any clearer than that.

Hi Saxon:

No one is claiming eternal life is of works. It's of God's grace--that we can agree on.

The next question, for me--is, who does God extend this grace of eternal life to, as a personal reception?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Preaching a salvation through a faith without any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ--- is the greatest lie satan has ever pawned upon mankind, IMO.

You obviously have no understanding of Acts 2:38 as you seem to think that it is saying that a person is baptized to be saved.

The scriptures testify repentance and water baptism is given for the remission of sins:

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

So--were those of Acts2 saved prior to the remission of sins--or after?

In the light of Ephesians 2:8-9 stating that salvation is an act of grace by God and that salvation is a gift of God and that salvation is not of works you are seriously deluded, or more to the point, you do not know what you are talking about. Acts 2:38 is saying that you should be baptized because of (for) the remission of sins.

That is the claim of some to cover the fact the scriptures testify against them--but I find no translation which renders the translation as "because":

New International Version
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

New Living Translation
Peter replied, "Each of you must repent of your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

English Standard Version
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Berean Study Bible
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Berean Literal Bible
And Peter says to them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

New American Standard Bible
Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

King James Bible
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Repent," Peter said to them, "and be baptized, each of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

International Standard Version
Peter answered them, "Every one of you must repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus the Messiah for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift.

NET Bible
Peter said to them, "Repent, and each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

New Heart English Bible
Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And Shimeon said to them, “Return to God and be immersed everyone of you, in the name of THE LORD JEHOVAH Yeshua, for release from sin, so that you may receive the gift of The Spirit of Holiness.”

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Peter answered them, "All of you must turn to God and change the way you think and act, and each of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins will be forgiven. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift.

New American Standard 1977
And Peter said to them, “Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Jubilee Bible 2000
Then Peter said unto them, Repent and be baptized each one of you into the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

King James 2000 Bible
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

American King James Version
Then Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

American Standard Version
And Peter'said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Darby Bible Translation
And Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptised, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for remission of sins, and ye will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

English Revised Version
And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Webster's Bible Translation
Then Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Weymouth New Testament
"Repent," replied Peter, "and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, with a view to the remission of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

World English Bible
Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Young's Literal Translation
and Peter said unto them, 'Reform, and be baptized each of you on the name of Jesus Christ, to remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit,

Saxon--all of those translations are looking forward--not behind.

Saxon

02-22-2017, 02:57 PM

No one is claiming eternal life is of works. It's of God's grace--that we can agree on.

That is strange, you are constantly arguing that works is required for salvation. The only way that a person can have “eternal life” is to obtain salvation. Salvation and eternal life are synonymous. Is this another point that you do not know what you are talking about?? I think so.

The next question, for me--is, who does God extend this grace of eternal life to, as a personal reception?

Here is another point that you seem to be void of knowing what you are talking about. What do you mean by GRACE? Your question is not understandable
Grace is not eternal life. Eternal life comes BY grace through faith, not of works.

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Preaching a salvation through a faith without any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ--- is the greatest lie satan has ever pawned upon mankind, IMO.

It is only the saved that will obey Christ. The lost do not obey Christ. Therefore, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him. Salvation comes first then those that are saved are the ones that obey.

What the LDS teach is the greatest lie Satan has ever pawned upon mankind. Since when is a gift worked for or earned?

The scriptures testify repentance and water baptism is given for the remission of sins:

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

So--were those of Acts2 saved prior to the remission of sins--or after?

Now that is a totally ignorant question. There is no one saved without the remission of sin. The question should be, when does the remission of sin occur? It can’t happen before salvation and it is already there after salvation, so it has to happen at the same moment as salvation.

That is the claim of some to cover the fact the scriptures testify against them--but I find no translation which renders the translation as "because":

Try the Amplified Version.

AMP Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent [change your old way of thinking, turn from your sinful ways, accept and follow Jesus as the Messiah] and be baptized, each of you, in the name of Jesus Christ because of the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

New International Version
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

New Living Translation
Peter replied, "Each of you must repent of your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

English Standard Version
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Berean Study Bible
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Berean Literal Bible
And Peter says to them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

New American Standard Bible
Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

King James Bible
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Repent," Peter said to them, "and be baptized, each of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

International Standard Version
Peter answered them, "Every one of you must repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus the Messiah for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift.

NET Bible
Peter said to them, "Repent, and each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

New Heart English Bible
Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And Shimeon said to them, “Return to God and be immersed everyone of you, in the name of THE LORD JEHOVAH Yeshua, for release from sin, so that you may receive the gift of The Spirit of Holiness.”

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Peter answered them, "All of you must turn to God and change the way you think and act, and each of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins will be forgiven. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift.

New American Standard 1977
And Peter said to them, “Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Jubilee Bible 2000
Then Peter said unto them, Repent and be baptized each one of you into the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

King James 2000 Bible
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

American King James Version
Then Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

American Standard Version
And Peter'said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Darby Bible Translation
And Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptised, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for remission of sins, and ye will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

English Revised Version
And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Webster's Bible Translation
Then Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Weymouth New Testament
"Repent," replied Peter, "and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, with a view to the remission of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

World English Bible
Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Young's Literal Translation
and Peter said unto them, 'Reform, and be baptized each of you on the name of Jesus Christ, to remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit,

Saxon--all of those translations are looking forward--not behind.

Most of the translations say the same thing, “for” (because of; see the amplified Bible) They all are looking to baptism because of the salvation that they have already received, except for a few paraphrase versions which are just someone’s personal opinion.

You can’t have it both ways. Salvation is gained without works or it is gained through works. The Bible is clear that it is NOT OF WORKS.

dberrie2000

02-22-2017, 04:34 PM

What do you mean by GRACE? Your question is not understandable
Grace is not eternal life. Eternal life comes BY grace through faith, not of works.

That's still grace.

So--is the remission of sins God's grace?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

It is only the saved that will obey Christ.

If the scriptures are true--then it's only those who obey Christ which will be saved:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

The lost do not obey Christ.

That's the reason they are lost.

Therefore, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him. Salvation comes first then those that are saved are the ones that obey.

That's not the sequence of the scripture. It has eternal life going to them which obey:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

dberrie2000

03-13-2017, 05:16 AM

Originally Posted by Saxon View Post What do you mean by GRACE? Your question is not understandable
Grace is not eternal life. Eternal life comes BY grace through faith, not of works.

That's still grace.

So--is the remission of sins God's grace?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

It is only the saved that will obey Christ.

If the scriptures are true--then it's only those who obey Christ which will be saved:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

The lost do not obey Christ.

That's the reason they are lost.

Therefore, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him. Salvation comes first then those that are saved are the ones that obey.

That's not the sequence of the scripture. It has eternal life going to them which obey:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Anyone? Surely--there are those who would like to discuss the Biblical scriptures themselves?

Saxon

03-13-2017, 07:33 PM

That's still grace.

So--is the remission of sins God's grace?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

No, the “remission” of sins is not grace. The remission of sins is accomplished by the grace of God through faith. (See Ephesians 2:8) God does the saving because God has an at***ude of grace toward mankind. God, by his grace, saves us because we have faith in Christ. Your comment says nothing about what grace is and your quote says nothing about grace or what grace is. Salvation is a gift and does not require works of any kind.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

If the scriptures are true--then it's only those who obey Christ which will be saved:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power

No, the lost do not obey Christ. They are lost because they do not believe. It is nothing to do with obeying Christ. The only ones that do obey Christ are those that are saved. The saved obey Christ. Your twisting of the scriptures is of no avail to you and your gross misinterpretation of scripture. 2 Thessalonians 1:8 and 9, are clearly describing the fate of those that are lost and do not obey Christ. Obedience will only come from the saved. Salvation is by grace, not works of any kind.

That's the reason they are lost.

That is not so, the reason that anyone is lost is that they do not believe.

John 3: 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

That's not the sequence of the scripture. It has eternal life going to them which obey:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Anyone? Surely--there are those who would like to discuss the Biblical scriptures themselves?

To believe what you are stating you must totally ignore the scripture that I have quoted in this post. But being a Mormon and not really believing the Bible to be true, that is no problem for you.

Ask yourself, who is it that obeys Christ? The only answer that is true is the saved. The lost will not obey what is obviously foolishness to them.

alanmolstad

03-14-2017, 04:06 AM

No, the “remission” of sins is not grace. The remission of sins is accomplished by the grace of God through faith. (See Ephesians 2:8) God does the saving because God has an at***ude of grace toward mankind. God, by his grace, saves us because we have faith in Christ. Your comment says nothing about what grace is and your quote says nothing about grace or what grace is. Salvation is a gift and does not require works of any kind.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

No, the lost do not obey Christ. They are lost because they do not believe. It is nothing to do with obeying Christ. The only ones that do obey Christ are those that are saved. The saved obey Christ. Your twisting of the scriptures is of no avail to you and your gross misinterpretation of scripture. 2 Thessalonians 1:8 and 9, are clearly describing the fate of those that are lost and do not obey Christ. Obedience will only come from the saved. Salvation is by grace, not works of any kind.

That is not so, the reason that anyone is lost is that they do not believe.

John 3: 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

To believe what you are stating you must totally ignore the scripture that I have quoted in this post. But being a Mormon and not really believing the Bible to be true, that is no problem for you.

Ask yourself, who is it that obeys Christ? The only answer that is true is the saved. The lost will not obey what is obviously foolishness to them.One of the best posts I have read on the Forum in a long, long time!

dberrie2000

03-14-2017, 05:02 AM

dberrie2000

03-14-2017, 05:06 AM

Salvation is a gift and does not require works of any kind.

You might want to relate that to the Savior:

Matthew 25:14-30----King James Version (KJV)
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:31-46---King James Version (KJV)
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

dberrie2000

03-14-2017, 05:14 AM

No, the lost do not obey Christ.

That's the reason they are lost:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

The scriptures connect obedience and eternal life.

It is nothing to do with obeying Christ.

Then to whom do you connect the above obedience to?

The only ones that do obey Christ are those that are saved.

Such as these?

Galatians 5:19-21--King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

2 Thessalonians 1:8 and 9, are clearly describing the fate of those that are lost and do not obey Christ. Obedience will only come from the saved. Salvation is by grace, not works of any kind.

That's the reason they are lost--they do not obey Christ:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

That is not so, the reason that anyone is lost is that they do not believe.

John 3: 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

But these are the ones who believe--and the reason they are not condemned:

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Saxon

03-15-2017, 01:50 PM

Thank you.

Saxon

03-15-2017, 01:54 PM

Your inability to read the Bible in context is your problem.

***us 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

dberrie2000

03-15-2017, 03:14 PM

That's the reason they are lost:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

The scriptures connect obedience and eternal life.

Then to whom do you connect the above obedience to?

Such as these?

Galatians 5:19-21--King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

That's the reason they are lost--they do not obey Christ:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

But these are the ones who believe--and the reason they are not condemned:

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Your inability to read the Bible in context is your problem.

***us 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

Hi Saxon:

That seems to be the usual retort of those whose theology is violated by the posted scriptures. Straw man arguments never were convincing nor compelling.

What do you find as out of context about the above scriptures?