Belive And Be Saved

[Saxon]

The following Bible scriptures tell you to believe and be saved. There is no works or baptism involved with getting saved. Just believe.


Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is p***ed from death unto life.

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Acts 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

Romans 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

1Peter 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

1John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
1John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
1John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

[dberrie2000]

The following Bible scriptures tell you to believe and be saved. There is no works involved with getting saved. Just believe.


Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is p***ed from death unto life.

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Acts 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

Romans 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

1Peter 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

1Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

1John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
1John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
1John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Hi Saxon:

One question:

Is that belief a faith without works--in your theology?

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[Saxon]

Hi Saxon:

One question:

Is that belief a faith without works--in your theology?

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Always the same question!

In the context of James 2:26, faith is always ***ociated with works. The works that show up with faith is to show men that there is faith at work in the believer. This is not in order to be saved but because a person with faith in God will always have a work ***ociated with faith.

The works that James is speaking to, is not a work to gain salvation as it is most obvious that Ephesians 2:8 to 10 states that salvation is a gift of God by grace through faith and it is NOT of works. It is also stated that works are for those that are in Christ Jesus, the saved.

The definition of faith in Hebrews 1:1 has two parts to it. First, the substance of things hoped for, is the believe part and the second, the evidence of things not seen is the working part. The starving man sitting at a table can believe that if he eats and drinks the food and drink that is on the table he will live but if he does not put his belief to work by eating he will die. The substance of the thing hoped for was the food and drink and the evidence of the thing not seen is eating of the food. Faith without works is dead.

When do Mormons actually get saved? Is it before physical death or after physical death?

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
James 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and des***ute of daily food,
James 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

[Erundur]

The following Bible scriptures tell you to believe and be saved. There is no works involved with getting saved. Just believe.
Okay. Mormons believe, so we must be saved, right?

[Saxon]

Okay. Mormons believe, so we must be saved, right?

That depends on who you believe in. Is it Jesus the creator of everything that was created, or Jesus, the spirit brother of Lucifer?

The Bible states that Jesus is the creator of everything that was created. Lucifer was also created by the creator, Jesus. Jesus of the Bible is not the spirit brother of Lucifer but his creator. This is an irreconcilable difference that has no possible way to conclude that the Mormon Jesus is the same as the Jesus described in the Bible.

I have to go on record that I believe that the Bible is totally correct and the Mormon stand on this point is a fatal error.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

From https://www.lds.org/ensign/1986/06/i-have-a-question?lang=eng
How can Jesus and Lucifer be spirit brothers when their characters and purposes are so utterly opposed?
Jess L. Christensen, Ins***ute of Religion director at Utah State University, Logan, Utah. On first hearing, the doctrine that Lucifer and our Lord, Jesus Christ, are brothers may seem surprising to some—especially to those unacquainted with latter-day revelations. But both the scriptures and the prophets affirm that Jesus Christ and Lucifer are indeed offspring of our Heavenly Father and, therefore, spirit brothers. Jesus Christ was with the Father from the beginning. Lucifer, too, was an angel “who was in authority in the presence of God,” a “son of the morning.” (See Isa. 14:12; D&C 76:25–27.) Both Jesus and Lucifer were strong leaders with great knowledge and influence. But as the Firstborn of the Father, Jesus was Lucifer’s older brother. (See Col. 1:15; D&C 93:21.)

[Erundur]

That depends on who you believe in. Is it Jesus the creator of everything that was created, or Jesus, the spirit brother of Lucifer?

The Bible states that Jesus is the creator of everything that was created. Lucifer was also created by the creator, Jesus. Jesus of the Bible is not the spirit brother of Lucifer but his creator.
Okay, so we've gone from "believe and be saved" to "believe that Jesus is the creator of everything that was created AND that Jesus of the Bible is not the spirit brother of Lucifer but his creator, and be saved." Is there anything else we need to add to the list?

[Saxon]

Okay, so we've gone from "believe and be saved" to "believe that Jesus is the creator of everything that was created AND that Jesus of the Bible is not the spirit brother of Lucifer but his creator, and be saved." Is there anything else we need to add to the list?

The only list is in your imagination. What we have is two different beliefs as to who Jesus is. Your Jesus, of the Mormon belief is one god among a large mul***ude of gods and is the spirit brother of Lucifer. The Jesus of the Bible is one God and beside him there is no other god. He is the creator of all that was and is created. (See Isaiah 45:18 and John 1:1 to 3) We have to believe that if one is true then the other is false.

What the Bible says is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. (See Acts 16:30 and 31) We have to pick one because they are obviously different. So there is no list as you have imagined. We are back to "believe and be saved".

Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.
Isaiah 43:12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, that I am God.

Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any

Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

[Phoenix]

The only list is in your imagination.
I have visited the home pages of some Evangelical churches, and they have lists of requirements for becoming a Christian. Some of those lists contain 5-10 things they teach that a person MUST do if he wants to be a Christian.

Are you saying those Evangelical churches are just in Erundur's imagination? Since I am the one claiming to have seen those lists, are you saying that I, too, only exist in Erundur's imagination?

[Erundur]

The only list is in your imagination.
Okay, so now we don't have to believe that Jesus is the creator of everything that was created and that Jesus of the Bible is not the spirit brother of Lucifer but his creator to be saved.



Your Jesus, of the Mormon belief is one god among a large mul***ude of gods and is the spirit brother of Lucifer.
This is a lie.


What the Bible says is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.
Mormons believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, so we must be saved, right?

[Saxon]

Okay, so now we don't have to believe that Jesus is the creator of everything that was created and that Jesus of the Bible is not the spirit brother of Lucifer but his creator to be saved.

We are not compelled to believe doctrine in order to be saved, you as a Mormon might have to. As a Bible believer I only need to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and I am saved.

How about commenting on the differences between the Jesus of the Bible and the Jesus of the Mormon teaching?




This is a lie.

Don’t leave me hanging, tell me why it is a lie. Have Mormons suddenly stoped believing that there is more than one God???




Mormons believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, so we must be saved, right?

That depends on which Jesus you are believing on, the Jesus of the Bible or the Mormon Jesus. I think if you believe on the Jesus of the Bible you will be saved. If that happens you will have to disregard the rest of the Mormon thought and rely exclusively on the Bible.

[Erundur]

We are not compelled to believe doctrine in order to be saved, you as a Mormon might have to.
So the rules are different depending on your denominational affiliation? Mormons might have to believe certain doctrines in order to be saved, but others don't?


As a Bible believer I only need to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and I am saved.
Are the rules different for non-Bible believers? Since Mormons are Bible believers, do we only need to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved?


How about commenting on the differences between the Jesus of the Bible and the Jesus of the Mormon teaching?
Because they are one and the same, so there are no differences.


Don’t leave me hanging, tell me why it is a lie.
Um...because it's false. Do you really not know what we believe?


Have Mormons suddenly stoped believing that there is more than one God???
Apparently you don't. I'll take that into account in the future.


That depends on which Jesus you are believing on, the Jesus of the Bible or the Mormon Jesus.
Since they are one and the same, we're good, right?


I think if you believe on the Jesus of the Bible you will be saved.
Mormons believe on the Jesus of the Bible, so we must be saved, right?


If that happens you will have to disregard the rest of the Mormon thought and rely exclusively on the Bible.
But we don't have to to be saved, right?

[Saxon]

So the rules are different depending on your denominational affiliation? Mormons might have to believe certain doctrines in order to be saved, but others don't?

I would suspect that you know more about Mormonism that I do. I told you what I think a Bible believer needs to do. You on the other hand, don’t rely on the Bible as much as I would, but the Book of Mormon, Pearl of great Price and Doctrine and Covenants play a greater role in the dictates of your beliefs. Yes, it may be different depending on your denominational affiliation. There is a difference in reality and beliefs. I do not think that any of us know it all.

Any unsaved person needs to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved. This refers to the Jesus described in the Bible.




Are the rules different for non-Bible believers? Since Mormons are Bible believers, do we only need to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved?

That depends on who you believe in. Is it Jesus the creator of everything that was created, or Jesus, the spirit brother of Lucifer?

The Bible states that Jesus is the creator of everything that was created. Lucifer was also created by the creator, Jesus. Jesus of the Bible is not the spirit brother of Lucifer but his creator. This is an irreconcilable difference that has no possible way to conclude that the Mormon Jesus is the same as the Jesus described in the Bible.

I have to go on record that I believe that the Bible is totally correct and the Mormon stand on this point is a fatal error.

Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any

Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.




Because they are one and the same, so there are no differences.

The Bible states that Jesus is the creator of everything that was created. Lucifer was also created by the creator, Jesus. Jesus of the Bible is not the spirit brother of Lucifer but his creator. This is an irreconcilable difference that has no possible way to conclude that the Mormon Jesus is the same as the Jesus described in the Bible.




Um...because it's false. Do you really not know what we believe?

There are many Gods for other worlds, and each God is equal to the God of this world in terms of His nature.
There are many gods who create and rule over other worlds, and on those worlds, worship excludes the God of our world. So there is only one God for us, and this God is typically referred to as the Heavenly Father. (McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 576-7; Joseph Fielding Smith, ed., The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 346-7 [pre-2002 edition]; Abraham 4:1, Pearl of Great Price; and "God," LDS Bible Dictionary).

There seems to be more gods in the Mormon universe than people on Earth. The Mormon Church teaches that more than one god exists and that is contrary to the Bible.

Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.
Isaiah 43:12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, that I am God.

Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any




Apparently you don't. I'll take that into account in the future.

According to the Bible there is only one God. (See Isaiah 44:8)




Since they are one and the same, we're good, right?

They are not the same. The Bible states that Jesus is the creator of everything that was created. Lucifer was also created by the creator, Jesus. Jesus of the Bible is not the spirit brother of Lucifer but his creator. This is an irreconcilable difference that has no possible way to conclude that the Mormon Jesus is the same as the Jesus described in the Bible.




Mormons believe on the Jesus of the Bible, so we must be saved, right?

Impossible! The Bible states that Jesus is the creator of everything that was created. Lucifer was also created by the creator, Jesus. Jesus of the Bible is not the spirit brother of Lucifer but his creator. This is an irreconcilable difference that has no possible way to conclude that the Mormon Jesus is the same as the Jesus described in the Bible.




But we don't have to to be saved, right?

Mormonism is a total departure from the Bible. After a person is saved they are expected to live a Christ directed Christian life. That means that you need to hold onto that which is good and let the false teaching stay in the past to be ignored. If you are to discover that the Bible is the truth that it claims to be then the false beliefs have to go.

[Erundur]

Yes, it may be different depending on your denominational affiliation.
So where in the Bible do we find the requirements for the various denominations?


Any unsaved person needs to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved.
But this may be only the first of many requirements, if I'm understanding you.


That depends on who you believe in. Is it Jesus the creator of everything that was created, or Jesus, the spirit brother of Lucifer?
Earlier you said we don't have to believe doctrine to be saved. Why do the requirements keep changing?


There are many Gods for other worlds, and each God is equal to the God of this world in terms of His nature.
There are many gods who create and rule over other worlds, and on those worlds, worship excludes the God of our world. So there is only one God for us, and this God is typically referred to as the Heavenly Father. (McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 576-7; Joseph Fielding Smith, ed., The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 346-7 [pre-2002 edition]; Abraham 4:1, Pearl of Great Price; and "God," LDS Bible Dictionary).

There seems to be more gods in the Mormon universe than people on Earth. The Mormon Church teaches that more than one god exists and that is contrary to the Bible.
Only one of your references is a doctrinal source (did you know that?), but I checked all of them and none of them stated what you claim. Where did you get your quote?


They are not the same.
They are.


Impossible!
And yet it is so. There must be a problem with your premises.


Mormonism is a total departure from the Bible.
That's just false, meaningless rhetoric.

[Saxon]

So where in the Bible do we find the requirements for the various denominations?

There is no requirements for different denominations in the Bible. The different requirements for different denominations is self-imposed by the different denominations. The actual and only requirement is in the Bible, believe and be saved.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Also see the original post on this thread.




But this may be only the first of many requirements, if I'm understanding you.

I don’t think that you are understanding me. Believe and be saved is the ONLY requirement. What happens after you are saved is a totally different thing. After you are saved, created in Christ Jesus, there is a requirement to live a Christ directed Christian life. This life is a life of obedience and good works. (See Ephesians 2:10)

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.




Earlier you said we don't have to believe doctrine to be saved. Why do the requirements keep changing?

Another misunderstanding. In order to gain salvation all that is required is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. There is no other requirement to gain salvation. What happens after you are saved is a totally different thing. After you are saved, created in Christ Jesus, there is a requirement to live a Christ directed Christian life. This life is a life of obedience and good works. Under the term, obedience, learning the doctrines and believing them gives you the knowledge of how to live the Christian life and the Holy Spirit gives you the power to do it.




Only one of your references is a doctrinal source (did you know that?), but I checked all of them and none of them stated what you claim. Where did you get your quote?

I do know that the LDS church teaches the existence of more than one god. The LDS description of the Trinity shows that quite clearly. There is more than that and you know that as well as I do.




They are.

Don’t keep me waiting, show me. How is it possible for Jesus to be the creator of all things created and be the spirit brother of Lucifer? Totally impossible.




And yet it is so. There must be a problem with your premises.

You are a good Mormon, believing everything that the church hands you no matter how impossible the reality of it is. Either Jesus is the spirit brother of Lucifer or he created Lucifer. You can’t have it both ways. The Bible says that Jesus is the creator of all things created. I am going to believe the Bible. The problem is that you are straying from the Bible.




That's just false, meaningless rhetoric.



Mormonism:The LDS Church is the only true church. Bible: The Church is a body of various believers and groups of believers.

Mormonism: After death, Celestial or the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms. Bible: After death, With Christ or with the devil and his angels.


Mormonism: Christ did not die for all sins. Bible: Christ did die for all sins.

Mormonism: Marriage may be eternal. Bible: Marriage is only until death.

Mormonism: Multiplicity of Gods. Bible: Only one God.

Mormonism: Trinity means three separate Gods. Bible: Father ,Son Holy Spirit are the one God.

Mormonism: Humans can become Gods. Bible: Humans will never be God.

Mormonism: God is an exalted man. Bible: God always is God for eternity.

There is too much more to spend time on when you will just deny it even though you know that the Mormon Church teaches all that I have listed. Being ignorant of the Bible you may not know that the Bible states differently than the LDS extra biblical books.

[Saxon]

Try visiting the pages of the Bible. What men write is not always right. The Bible is inspired by God and is what you want to read if you want information about salvation and how to gain it.

[theway]

There is no works involved with getting saved. Just believe.No... To merely believe in Christ will not save you, even the Bible points this out.

James 2:19 You believe that there is one God; you do well: the demons also believe, and tremble.

A "Faith" in Christ is all that is required to save you... However, "faith" is an action word; a faith without works is a dead faith...

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

....and a dead faith can not save anybody, nor is it the requirement for salvation by God.
The Freudian Slip ***le of your thread was actually correct. Belive[Be Live] And be Saved.

In any case, you do not even believe you own mantra.

For instance, I believe and have a faith in Jesus Christ of the Bible, AM I SAVED?

As has been shown already on this thread, your answer is; No!
In fact, you hypocritically start adding on all kinds of beliefs, requirements, and actions I must take in order to be saved.

The second problem you have is that there are Churches that you consider to be Christian who have already stated that we are saved.... So why would I listen to you and not to them?

[Saxon]

No... To merely believe in Christ will not save you, even the Bible points this out.

To merely believe in Christ will save you, even the Bible points this out. Where is the rest of the answer to the jailors question, what must I do to be saved? Where is all the lists of works that the LDS want to heap upon people? Paul and Silas answered the question truthfully, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved.

Where is it mentioned in the answer that you have to make a choice between a true faith and a dead faith. It isn’t there.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.




James 2:19 You believe that there is one God; you do well: the demons also believe, and tremble.

Demons are not creatures of faith. The fact that they are not saved is because there is no faith in them.




A "Faith" in Christ is all that is required to save you... However, "faith" is an action word; a faith without works is a dead faith...

You are totally out of touch with the Bible. Show me where God is ever obligated to save anyone whether they believe, have faith or do all the works that the LDS leaders place on everyone?

God is never ever obligated to save anyone. That is why all the works in all the time God grants us life on the Earth will never be enough to merit salvation.

Salvation is a gift that is given to us by God because he has an at***ude of grace towards man and loves man. God saves man that has faith in Jesus Christ because he wants to do it not because we have impressed him with our wonderful lives.

We are saved by grace not faith. The term grace eliminates any working by man to gain salvation. The fact that salvation is a gift from God also eliminates any working by man to gain salvation. The plain statement, NOT of works eliminates any working by man to gain salvation. We can do nothing to gain salvation.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast




James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

....and a dead faith can not save anybody, nor is it the requirement for salvation by God.

Faith does not save anyone in any case. You are making an argument where there is no argument.




The Freudian Slip ***le of your thread was actually correct. Belive[Be Live] And be Saved.

Believe is one term and be and live are two different terms. You are not amusing.




In any case, you do not even believe you own mantra.

For instance, I believe and have a faith in Jesus Christ of the Bible, AM I SAVED?

As has been shown already on this thread, your answer is; No!
In fact, you hypocritically start adding on all kinds of beliefs, requirements, and actions I must take in order to be saved.

Show me where I have added all kinds of belief requirements and actions in order to gain salvation.




The second problem you have is that there are Churches that you consider to be Christian who have already stated that we are saved.... So why would I listen to you and not to them?

That is not my problem that there are churches that I consider to be Christian that believe Mormons to be Christians, it is their problem. Besides I don’t recall mentioning any churches that I consider to be Christian that believe Mormons to be Christians. Seeing that you are privy to such information, tell me about it.

Listen to the Bible.

[theway]

To merely believe in Christ will save you, even the Bible points this out. No... Only your interpretation of the Bible is all. Luckily you have been unable to even convince your own fellow Christians of this nonsense. Which is why I wonder why you are here? Do you believe the Mormons are more gullible than they are?


Demons are not creatures of faith. The fact that they are not saved is because there is no faith in them.Wait a minute, look at your thread ***le, there is nothing in it about faith, or grace.... just believe. You seem to be changing your tune once the fallacy of your theology has been exposed.




You are totally out of touch with the Bible. Show me where God is ever obligated to save anyone whether they believe, have faith or do all the works that the LDS leaders place on everyone?I never said anything about obligation, that is your strawman that you created in order to divert attention from your failed argument.



God is never ever obligated to save anyone. That is why all the works in all the time God grants us life on the Earth will never be enough to merit salvationTrue, but that has nothing to do with your ***ertion.


Believe is one term and be and live are two different terms. You are not amusing.I actually meant to be amusing, however the problem is that you did not write "Believe"
The fact that this went right over your head only demonstrates your inability to comprehend the simplist of statements, let alone something complicated like the Bible.



Show me where I have added all kinds of belief requirements and actions in order to gain salvation.You stated all one had to do is to believe to be saved...
Its been put forward to you numerous times that we as Mormons believe in the Lord Jesus Christ of the Bible, ergo... We are saved, right?
If not, why not?

This is where you then start adding on all kinds of qualifiers and actions we as Mormons must first do to be saved. Anyone who has read this thread can see your hypocrisy.


That is not my problem that there are churches that I consider to be Christian that believe Mormons to be Christians, it is their problem.This just points to another one of your hypocrisies. 85% of people who call themselves Christian see Faith Alone AKA, "Cheap Grace" as a heresy, yet you still see them as saved. In fact, if you truely believe that works has nothing to do with salvation, then the fact that we and the vast majority of Christian faiths believe they do, and practice such; will not in any way change whether we are saved or not.... So why bother telling us about it, if it changes nothing anyway.

The way I see it, is if we are right in that we need both works and faith to be saved, then we will be saved if we have both, yet you will not be saved because you lack works.
On the other hand if you are right and faith/belief is all that was needed to be saved, then we are still saved because we still at least have faith....

It's a win-win for us, as we have both bases covered.
However, you've only got 50%-50% chance at salvation.

[Saxon]

No... Only your interpretation of the Bible is all. Luckily you have been unable to even convince your own fellow Christians of this nonsense. Which is why I wonder why you are here? Do you believe the Mormons are more gullible than they are?

Of course it is my interpretation of the Bible. I would be less than honest with myself if I didn’t believe it the way that I read it and understand it. You have the same privilege to believe what you believe as well. ***uming that one of us is correct then logically the other is wrong. What I do is rely on what the Bible says to me in what I feel is a clear understanding.

I don’t have to convince my fellow Christians to believe me as we, for the most part, are in agreement. As far as Mormons being more gullible, that has nothing to do with it. We do not see the Christian faith in the same light. We are 180 degrees out of phase on most topics.

Do you take everything that the LDS teach without question? I am allowed to question the church leaders where I attend and it is expected that it will be done if any member feels the need to understand or even correct the Pastor. This is not a sin but rather it is a duty. The truth is more important than the preacher being always thought to be right no matter what. We are not to swallow everything blindly that is taught, but we should follow the example of the believers at Berea, who searched the scriptures to check if Paul and Silas were telling the truth or not. (See Acts 17:10 and 11) Should we be any different?

Acts 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.




Wait a minute, look at your thread ***le, there is nothing in it about faith, or grace.... just believe. You seem to be changing your tune once the fallacy of your theology has been exposed.

Wait a minute, read the Bible:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

It says saved by grace through faith. Believing is an act of faith. When God sees our faith he saves us but it is by grace as we do not deserve salvation.

Faith in God is more than a theoretical belief in Him. To have faith in God is to trust Him, to have confidence in Him, and to be willing to act on your belief in Him. It is a principle of action and power. (http://www.mormon.org/faq/topic/faith/question/what-is-faith)




I never said anything about obligation, that is your strawman that you created in order to divert attention from your failed argument.

No, you never said anything about obligation, I did. If you work for someone that someone is obligated to pay you. You can work to gain salvation all you want but God will not be obligated to grant you salvation because of your work. This is not a straw man this is truth. (See Ephesians 2:9) What part of “not of works” is so difficult to understand?




True, but that has nothing to do with your ***ertion.

It has everything, Salvation is a gift, not of works. You do not need to do anything to gain salvation but believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.




I actually meant to be amusing, however the problem is that you did not write "Believe"
The fact that this went right over your head only demonstrates your inability to comprehend the simplist of statements, let alone something complicated like the Bible.

A typing error doesn’t change the truth. You are still not amusing but you do stumble over the obvious quite eloquently.




You stated all one had to do is to believe to be saved...
Its been put forward to you numerous times that we as Mormons believe in the Lord Jesus Christ of the Bible, ergo... We are saved, right?
If not, why not?

This is where you then start adding on all kinds of qualifiers and actions we as Mormons must first do to be saved. Anyone who has read this thread can see your hypocrisy.

If the Mormon Jesus is not the Jesus that is the person that the father sent to die for our sins then you can believe in him all you want and you will not be saved.

The Bible states that Jesus is the creator of everything that was created. Lucifer was also created by the creator, Jesus. Jesus of the Bible is not the spirit brother of Lucifer but his creator. This is an irreconcilable difference that has no possible way to conclude that the Mormon Jesus is the same as the Jesus described in the Bible.




This just points to another one of your hypocrisies. 85% of people who call themselves Christian see Faith Alone AKA, "Cheap Grace" as a heresy, yet you still see them as saved. In fact, if you truely believe that works has nothing to do with salvation, then the fact that we and the vast majority of Christian faiths believe they do, and practice such; will not in any way change whether we are saved or not.... So why bother telling us about it, if it changes nothing anyway.

This is not a democratic vote. The majority is not necessarily right. When the Bible says “not of works”, I don’t care if it is 99.9% that believe works have a part in salvation, it just isn’t so and never will be. The problem is that you who believe that works will gain salvation for you are trusting in your works and not trusting in God to give what he said is a gift. If you are trusting your works and not trusting God, it changes everything.




The way I see it, is if we are right in that we need both works and faith to be saved, then we will be saved if we have both, yet you will not be saved because you lack works.
On the other hand if you are right and faith/belief is all that was needed to be saved, then we are still saved because we still at least have faith....

Yes, faith in your works that will get you nowhere.




It's a win-win for us, as we have both bases covered.
However, you've only got 50%-50% chance at salvation.

When the Bible says “not of works” I have it all, 100%.

[Erundur]

There is no requirements for different denominations in the Bible. The different requirements for different denominations is self-imposed by the different denominations. The actual and only requirement is in the Bible, believe and be saved.
Great. So since Mormons believe, then according to the Bible we are saved, right?


I don’t think that you are understanding me. Believe and be saved is the ONLY requirement.
Thanks for clearing that up. So since Mormons believe, we must be saved, right?


What happens after you are saved is a totally different thing. After you are saved, created in Christ Jesus, there is a requirement to live a Christ directed Christian life.
What happens if one fails to meet the requirement?


Another misunderstanding. In order to gain salvation all that is required is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. There is no other requirement to gain salvation.
Okay, so since Mormons believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, we must be saved, right?


I do know that the LDS church teaches the existence of more than one god. The LDS description of the Trinity shows that quite clearly. There is more than that and you know that as well as I do.
But I want to know where you got the quote, or if you just made it up.


Don’t keep me waiting, show me. How is it possible for Jesus to be the creator of all things created and be the spirit brother of Lucifer? Totally impossible.
Easy. God is the father of spirits, which makes all of us spiritual brothers and sisters.


You are a good Mormon, believing everything that the church hands you no matter how impossible the reality of it is.
LOL.

[theway]

Of course it is my interpretation of the Bible. I would be less than honest with myself if I didn’t believe it the way that I read it and understand it. You have the same privilege to believe what you believe as well. ***uming that one of us is correct then logically the other is wrong. What I do is rely on what the Bible says to me in what I feel is a clear understanding.

I don’t have to convince my fellow Christians to believe me as we, for the most part, are in agreement. As far as Mormons being more gullible, that has nothing to do with it. We do not see the Christian faith in the same light. We are 180 degrees out of phase on most topics.p

Do you take everything that the LDS teach without question? I am allowed to question the church leaders where I attend and it is expected that it will be done if any member feels the need to understand or even correct the Pastor. This is not a sin but rather it is a duty. The truth is more important than the preacher being always thought to be right no matter what. We are not to swallow everything blindly that is taught, but we should follow the example of the believers at Berea, who searched the scriptures to check if Paul and Silas were telling the truth or not. (See Acts 17:10 and 11) Should we be any different?

Acts 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.


Wait a minute, read the Bible:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

It says saved by grace through faith. Believing is an act of faith. When God sees our faith he saves us but it is by grace as we do not deserve salvation.

Faith in God is more than a theoretical belief in Him. To have faith in God is to trust Him, to have confidence in Him, and to be willing to act on your belief in Him. It is a principle of action and power. (http://www.mormon.org/faq/topic/faith/question/what-is-faith)

No, you never said anything about obligation, I did. If you work for someone that someone is obligated to pay you. You can work to gain salvation all you want but God will not be obligated to grant you salvation because of your work. This is not a straw man this is truth. (See Ephesians 2:9) What part of “not of works” is so difficult to understand?

It has everything, Salvation is a gift, not of works. You do not need to do anything to gain salvation but believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

A typing error doesn’t change the truth. You are still not amusing but you do stumble over the obvious quite eloquently.

If the Mormon Jesus is not the Jesus that is the person that the father sent to die for our sins then you can believe in him all you want and you will not be saved.

The Bible states that Jesus is the creator of everything that was created. Lucifer was also created by the creator, Jesus. Jesus of the Bible is not the spirit brother of Lucifer but his creator. This is an irreconcilable difference that has no possible way to conclude that the Mormon Jesus is the same as the Jesus described in the Bible.

This is not a democratic vote. The majority is not necessarily right. When the Bible says “not of works”, I don’t care if it is 99.9% that believe works have a part in salvation, it just isn’t so and never will be. The problem is that you who believe that works will gain salvation for you are trusting in your works and not trusting in God to give what he said is a gift. If you are trusting your works and not trusting God, it changes everything.

Yes, faith in your works that will get you nowhere.

When the Bible says “not of works” I have it all, 100%.Now I'm confused???
You started this thread by saying "belief" alone saved.
Then you changed it to a Faith Alone saves...
Then it was Grace Alone which saves...
Then you changed it to grace through faith...
Then you stated that whether you believed in Faith Alone or Grace Alone really doesn't matter, because the real test of salvation is that you don't believe that Satan was a spirit Brother of Jesus (which by the way is not a requirement found anywhere in the Bible)
Then you stated that works matter, except only after you are saved????

This is why I could never be a Faith Alone believer... There's just too many works involved.

[Saxon]

Great. So since Mormons believe, then according to the Bible we are saved, right?
Thanks for clearing that up. So since Mormons believe, we must be saved, right?

If you were to believe in the Jesus of the Bible, then you would be saved.




What happens if one fails to meet the requirement?

Not believing in OSAS I am led to the conclusion that the person that fails to meet the requirement departs from the living God. (See Hebrews 3:12)

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.




Okay, so since Mormons believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, we must be saved, right?

If you were to believe in the Jesus of the Bible, then you would be saved.




Easy. God is the father of spirits, which makes all of us spiritual brothers and sisters.

Human existence begins in a mother’s womb at conception. Preexistence as spirit children is not Bible and therefore not true. Jesus preexisted as God before he became a man, no one else.

[Saxon]

Now I'm confused???
You started this thread by saying "belief" alone saved.
Then you changed it to a Faith Alone saves...
Then it was Grace Alone which saves...
Then you changed it to grace through faith...
Then you stated that whether you believed in Faith Alone or Grace Alone really doesn't matter, because the real test of salvation is that you don't believe that Satan was a spirit Brother of Jesus (which by the way is not a requirement found anywhere in the Bible)
Then you stated that works matter, except only after you are saved????

This is why I could never be a Faith Alone believer... There's just too many works involved.

The reason you are so confused is all that Mormon false teaching running through your head.

All a man or woman must do is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and they shall be saved. God said he will save those that believe and he does so by grace because we can never deserve salvation. There is Man’s part and there is God’s part. It isn’t that complicated.

There is a difference between saved and lost. The lost can do nothing that will obligate God to save them so God gives salvation as a gift to those that believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Once the gift is given and received there is a new life that is to be lived. In that life we are to live a Christ directed Christian life that involves works.

Don’t worry because faith does not save anyone, God does all the saving.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

[Erundur]

If you were to believe in the Jesus of the Bible, then you would be saved.
I guess that's as close to an answer as we're going to get. I'll take that as a yes.


Not believing in OSAS I am led to the conclusion that the person that fails to meet the requirement departs from the living God. (See Hebrews 3:12)

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Good, we agree on something (which means you're right ;)).


Human existence begins in a mother’s womb at conception. Preexistence as spirit children is not Bible and therefore not true. Jesus preexisted as God before he became a man, no one else.
Not according to the Bible.

[Saxon]

I guess that's as close to an answer as we're going to get. I'll take that as a yes.

You can take it any way you want to. The fact is that Jesus of the Bible is the creator of all things created and is not the spirit brother of Lucifer because the Jesus of the Bible created Lucifer.

The Jesus of the Mormon thought is just one god among many.

If you want to take that as yes you may as well keep on deluding yourself into thinking that there is no difference because we wouldn't want to think that the Mormon church could possibly be wrong.




Not according to the Bible.

Show me from the Bible.

[theway]

The reason you are so confused is all that Mormon false teaching running through your head.

All a man or woman must do is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and they shall be saved. God said he will save those that believe and he does so by grace because we can never deserve salvation. There is Man’s part and there is God’s part. It isn’t that complicated.

There is a difference between saved and lost. The lost can do nothing that will obligate God to save them so God gives salvation as a gift to those that believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Once the gift is given and received there is a new life that is to be lived. In that life we are to live a Christ directed Christian life that involves works.

Don’t worry because faith does not save anyone, God does all the saving.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
All you have done is make your stance more confusing and contradictory.
You are back to claiming that a belief alone saves, yet you have already acknowledged that belief alone does not save(ie demons who believe)
You say that it is grace which saves, and that it's God who does all the saving???
If God truely does all the saving, then why do we need faith or belief??? Wouldn't that cons***ute a requirement or an action on our part?
You also contradicted yourself when you stated that a person could lose their salvation by their actions.
If that is true then you are now saying that our works are tied to or salvation.... Whether those works happen before or after you are saved is irrelevant to the requirement.

That is the paradox of Faith Alone believers... If you truely believe that our works have nothing to do with our salvation, then whatever we do before and after we are "saved" will have no consequences or repercussions on our salvation... In other words, if you were a true faith/belief Alone believer than you would also have to believe in OSAS as well.

[Phoenix]

You also contradicted yourself when you stated that a person could lose their salvation by their actions.
If that is true then you are now saying that our works are tied to or salvation.... Whether those works happen before or after you are saved is irrelevant to the requirement.

That is the paradox of Faith Alone believers... If you truely believe that our works have nothing to do with our salvation, then whatever we do before and after we are "saved" will have no consequences or repercussions on our salvation... In other words, if you were a true faith/belief Alone believer than you would also have to believe in OSAS as well.

Good observation, TheWay.

[theway]

Good observation, TheWay.That's the problem with a lie... It always takes adding more lies to make it seem credible.

You start with the Faith Alone lie, and then you have to invent OSAS to justify it.
Before you know it you're up to five lies and TULIP.

[Saxon]

All you have done is make your stance more confusing and contradictory.
You are back to claiming that a belief alone saves, yet you have already acknowledged that belief alone does not save(ie demons who believe)
You say that it is grace which saves, and that it's God who does all the saving???
If God truely does all the saving, then why do we need faith or belief??? Wouldn't that cons***ute a requirement or an action on our part?

If you care to look at my posts you will find that I have stated in a few places that belief does not save. Faith does not save. If you were to read the Bible closely you also notice that grace also is not a power to save either. Grace is not something tangible, it is the at***ude that God has toward man. If you would come out with a detailed answer as to what you think grace is, that would be interesting I am sure.

The reason that we need faith is because God has declared that if we believe we will be saved. (See John 3:16) Believing is an act of faith. It is an action on man’s part, but that action does not put God in a position that obligates him to save anyone. Man can do nothing that will cause him to gain salvation. God, by his own will saves those that believe.

All a man or woman must do is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and they shall be saved. God said he will save those that believe and he does so by grace because we can never deserve salvation. There is Man’s part and there is God’s part. It isn’t that complicated.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.




You also contradicted yourself when you stated that a person could lose their salvation by their actions.
If that is true then you are now saying that our works are tied to or salvation.... Whether those works happen before or after you are saved is irrelevant to the requirement.

I also have stated that there is a difference in gaining salvation and living in salvation. While a person gains salvation by receiving salvation as a gift from God, (See Ephesians 2:8) once the gift is received the recipient is required to live a Christ directed Christian life that includes works. (See Ephesians 2:10) If a person is not living a Christian life, that person is no longer a Christian. I would possibly say that works are tied to maintaining a Christian life, but works or a lack of works is not the deal breaker. (See 1 Corinthians 3:13 to 15) A person’s at***ude is what makes the difference. In any case, works in no way, are involved with gaining salvation. (See Ephesians 2:9)

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

1 Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1 Corinthians 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.




That is the paradox of Faith Alone believers... If you truely believe that our works have nothing to do with our salvation, then whatever we do before and after we are "saved" will have no consequences or repercussions on our salvation... In other words, if you were a true faith/belief Alone believer than you would also have to believe in OSAS as well.

In your own mind this may be what you consider to be true, but the Bible says a totally different reality. You don’t recognize the difference between before and after. Before salvation you are dead in sin, after salvation you are a new creature in Christ. That is a major difference.

Contrary to what I have stated, you have cl***ified me as a faith/belief alone believer, but I do not believe in OSAS.

[Erundur]

You can take it any way you want to.
I want to take it they way you meant it, but you're making it awfully difficult.


The fact is that Jesus of the Bible is the creator of all things created and is not the spirit brother of Lucifer because the Jesus of the Bible created Lucifer.
But as you said, we don't have to believe doctrine to be saved, so this question is moot regarding salvation.


The Jesus of the Mormon thought is just one god among many.
That is a lie.


If you want to take that as yes you may as well keep on deluding yourself into thinking that there is no difference because we wouldn't want to think that the Mormon church could possibly be wrong.
Was I supposed to take it as a no?

[Saxon]

I want to take it they way you meant it, but you're making it awfully difficult.

Do you understand what I meant?




But as you said, we don't have to believe doctrine to be saved, so this question is moot regarding salvation.

Correct, we don’t. My point is that if you or I are believing in the wrong Jesus then we can believe until we turn another colour and it will be for nothing. The Jesus of the Bible is a total departure from the Jesus of Mormon thought. The Mormon Jesus was a man that became a god while the Jesus of the Bible was God and became a man. Just on that point alone we are in a fatal contradiction. One of us is wrong enough to go to hell ***uming that there is a right one. I believe that the Bible Jesus is the true Jesus.




That is a lie.

That is not a lie. The Mormon Trinity is proof that the LDS believe in more than one God. The Father is a god, The Son is a god and the Holy Spirit is a god. The Mormon faith is polytheistic, more than one God.

The Mormon heavenly father had a father who was a god and his father was a god and on and on it goes. This makes the Mormon Jesus a god among mul***udes of gods.




Was I supposed to take it as a no?

All that I can say is that there is a difference between the Jesus of the Bible and the Jesus of Mormon thought. I trust the Bible and would say to you that if you want to be saved, the Jesus of the Bible is the only way.

[Erundur]

Do you understand what I meant?
I don't know anymore. It feels like I'm trying to nail Jell-O to a wall.


The Jesus of the Bible is a total departure from the Jesus of Mormon thought.
That is a lie. The Jesus of Mormon thought is Jesus Christ of the Bible.


I believe that the Bible Jesus is the true Jesus.
Hey, so do we! So we must be saved, right?


That is not a lie.
It is a lie.


The Mormon Trinity is proof that the LDS believe in more than one God. The Father is a god, The Son is a god and the Holy Spirit is a god. The Mormon faith is polytheistic, more than one God.
Then which two do you say are not God?


The Mormon heavenly father had a father who was a god and his father was a god and on and on it goes. This makes the Mormon Jesus a god among mul***udes of gods.
False.


All that I can say is that there is a difference between the Jesus of the Bible and the Jesus of Mormon thought.
And you're wrong. You only say that because of doctrine, which you say we don't need to be saved, but then we do, but then we don't, but then we do...


I trust the Bible and would say to you that if you want to be saved, the Jesus of the Bible is the only way.
We know; that's why we follow him. So we must be saved, right?

[Phoenix]

I don't know anymore. It feels like I'm trying to nail Jell-O to a wall.

That is a lie. The Jesus of Mormon thought is Jesus Christ of the Bible.

Hey, so do we! So we must be saved, right?

It is a lie.

Then which two do you say are not God?

False.

And you're wrong. You only say that because of doctrine, which you say we don't need to be saved, but then we do, but then we don't, but then we do...
We know; that's why we follow him. So we must be saved, right?

I think one problem here is the fact that Saxon is at a disadvantage: He doesn't really know what the authoritative, official requirements for being a Christian say, when it comes to what people absolutely must believe, at a minimum, about Jesus.

Is there a Bible verse quoting Jesus saying "You must believe that my Father, and Me, and the Holy Ghost, are literally one being, or else you can't be a Christian." Etc. etc. So Saxon has put together, in his mind, his own personal, non-authoritative, non-official list of the requirements for being a Christian. And he judges other people by his own list, and tells one person "You are a Christian" and another person "You are NOT a Christian" according to that non-binding list.

Personally, I would use the words of Christ on the issue as my guide.

[alanmolstad]

we are not saved by faith
we are not saved by works
we are not saved by any combination of faith and works

But rather we are saved by grace .
Saved by grace though faith, and not by works.

[Saxon]

I don't know anymore. It feels like I'm trying to nail Jell-O to a wall.

Start to explain you side of the debate in more detail and I may understand what it is that I am saying or not saying is not understandable to you. Are you a new Mormon post 1990?




That is a lie. The Jesus of Mormon thought is Jesus Christ of the Bible.

Brigham Young taught: "The birth of the Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood---was begotten of his Father as we were of our fathers" (Journal of Discourses vol.8, p.115); and "when the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness [flesh and blood]. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost" (Journal of Discourses, vol.1, p.50).

Luke 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Mormon thought Jesus was conceive in Mary by her having sexual relations with heavenly father. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. (Journal of Discourses) The Journal of Discourses p***age denies the Bible p***age that is clear that The Holy Ghost had come upon her and the power of the Highest shall overshadowed her causing conception of Jesus. Two different accounts that cannot both be true. Jesus of the Bible is not the Jesus of Mormon thought.

There are many more differences the Jesus of the Bible and the Jesus of Mormon thought and as a Mormon you should be the one that knows this.

Check out the following and get back to me:

"In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints 'do not believe in the traditional Christ.' 'No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak'" (LDS Church News, week ending June 20, 1998, p.7).
"It is true that many of the Christian churches worship a different Jesus Christ than is worshipped by the Mormons or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (LDS Seventy Bernard P. Brockbank, Ensign, May 1977, p.26 ).




Hey, so do we! So we must be saved, right?

We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. (Articles of faith 8)

This statement shows that there is a lot of doubt about the Bible so I would say that in reality Mormons don’t believe the Bible




It is a lie.

The book History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints records Joseph Smith saying the following in his 1844 King Follett sermon:
"In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted [prepared] a plan to create the world and people it."
A couple of months later, on June 16, 1844, Smith said the following in another sermon:
"I will preach on the plurality of Gods. ...

I wish to declare I have always and in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods. It has been preached by the Elders for fifteen years. ...

Why do I know this and you, a Mormon, don’t know it???




Then which two do you say are not God?

You have no idea what the Christian doctrine of the Trinity is do you? As Far as I am concerned in the Mormon thought there is no god because it is all contrary to the teaching of the Bible. There is only one God. The Father, Son and the holy Ghost are the one God.




False.

See Joseph Smith's Sermon on the Plurality of Gods Printed in History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 473-479. In it you will see the following:

If Abraham reasoned thus—If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? And everything comes in this way. Paul says that which is earthly is in the likeness of that which is heavenly, Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? I despise the idea of being scared to death at such a doctrine, for the Bible is full of it.

Joseph Smith taught that the father of Jesus had a father and on it goes. You will also notice the ease the Joseph discredits the Bible. You said that Mormons believe the Bible, Joseph Smith didn’t.




And you're wrong. You only say that because of doctrine, which you say we don't need to be saved, but then we do, but then we don't, but then we do...

We don’t need it to gain salvation, but we need it to know how to live a Christ directed Christian life. The difference between the Jesus of the Bible is gigantic. See LDS Church News, week ending June 20, 1998, p.7 and tell me that a past president of the Mormon Church didn't believe that there is a difference between the Jesus of the Bible and the Jesus of Mormon thought.




We know; that's why we follow him. So we must be saved, right?

Being a Mormon you will never follow the Jesus of the Bible.

[Saxon]

Copy my list and also quote the words of Christ on the issue . Do you believe that the only thing in the Bible that is authoritative are the words of Jesus?

[Saxon]

You have attached this to the end of my post, what are you talking about? I see no connection.

[Erundur]

Start to explain you side of the debate in more detail and I may understand what it is that I am saying or not saying is not understandable to you.
There's no debate going on here. I'm wondering how you can't see the contradictions in your statements to the effect that:
1) Believing in Jesus is the only requirement to be saved, but there are also other requirements to be saved; and
2) You don't need to believe any particular doctrine to be saved, but you need to believe in certain doctrines to be saved.


Mormon thought Jesus was conceive in Mary by her having sexual relations with heavenly father.
That is a lie.


There are many more differences the Jesus of the Bible and the Jesus of Mormon thought and as a Mormon you should be the one that knows this.
The Jesus of Mormon thought and the Jesus of the Bible are one and the same. That's what I know.


Check out the following and get back to me:

"In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints 'do not believe in the traditional Christ.' 'No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak'" (LDS Church News, week ending June 20, 1998, p.7).
"It is true that many of the Christian churches worship a different Jesus Christ than is worshipped by the Mormons or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (LDS Seventy Bernard P. Brockbank, Ensign, May 1977, p.26 ).
100% true.


We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. (Articles of faith 8)

This statement shows that there is a lot of doubt about the Bible so I would say that in reality Mormons don’t believe the Bible
No it doesn't, and you would be lying when you say that.


As Far as I am concerned in the Mormon thought there is no god because it is all contrary to the teaching of the Bible.
That's just silly.


We don’t need it to gain salvation
Then why do we need it to gain salvation?


Being a Mormon you will never follow the Jesus of the Bible.
Being a Mormon I can do nothing but follow the Jesus of the Bible.

[Saxon]

There's no debate going on here. I'm wondering how you can't see the contradictions in your statements to the effect that:
1) Believing in Jesus is the only requirement to be saved, but there are also other requirements to be saved; and
2) You don't need to believe any particular doctrine to be saved, but you need to believe in certain doctrines to be saved.

I don’t know where I have said that there are other requirements to be saved, so it must be you saying that there are other requirements to be saved. Show me what you think the other requirements to be saved are.

This is what I mean when I say you need more detail. What are the certain doctrines do you need to believe to be saved?




That is a lie.

Brigham Young taught: "The birth of the Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood---was begotten of his Father as we were of our fathers" (Journal of Discourses vol.8, p.115)

You need to take that up with your Church leadership and if they contradict Brigham Young the Church falls because Brigham was a prophet.

Don’t just tell me that it’s a lie, explain why it’s a lie.




The Jesus of Mormon thought and the Jesus of the Bible are one and the same. That's what I know.

The traditional Christ is the Christ of the Bible. We know this because that is where we get all the information about the traditional Christ. The Christ that President Hinckley spoke of comes from extra-biblical books that contradict the Bible.

You need to show me the reasons that you “know”. When you counter me with no reason it makes it hard to carry the conversation; help me a little.




100% true.

Which confirms what I have been saying, there is a different Mormon Jesus compared with the Jesus of the Bible.




No it doesn't, and you would be lying when you say that.

Tell me about it. “No it doesn’t” won’t carry the conversation. Why would I be lying when Articles of faith 8 sets up doubt of the accuracy of the Bible??




That's just silly.

What’s just silly? More information. If I didn’t have to second guess what you are trying to get across to me we may be able to make some progress.




Then why do we need it to gain salvation?

This is another spot that more information would be nice. What are you talking about??

I said we don’t need doctrine to gain salvation and then you ask, “Then why do we need it to gain salvation?” As far as I have already stated, we don’t, so you tell me the answer to your question.




Being a Mormon I can do nothing but follow the Jesus of the Bible.

That is impressive, seeing Mormon teaching about Jesus comes from extra-biblical books and contradicts just about everything the bible teaches about Jesus. The Mormon Jesus is a man that became a god and the Bible Jesus is God became a man. There is a lot more but I won’t waste my time just for you to comment that it is a lie with no explanation.

[Erundur]

I don’t know where I have said that there are other requirements to be saved
Several times in this thread. Every time I point out that according to your one and only criterion Mormons must be saved, you counter with several doctrines that we must also believe to be saved.


Don’t just tell me that it’s a lie, explain why it’s a lie.
It's a lie because it is not Mormon thought that Jesus was conceived in Mary by her having sexual relations with heavenly father. Didn't you know that?


The traditional Christ is the Christ of the Bible. We know this because that is where we get all the information about the traditional Christ. False. Many of your beliefs about Christ come from extra-Biblical creeds and councils.


You need to show me the reasons that you “know”.
So you really don't know what we believe? Isn't it a bit presumptuous to attack a church when you don't even know their doctrine?


Tell me about it. “No it doesn’t” won’t carry the conversation. Why would I be lying when Articles of faith 8 sets up doubt of the accuracy of the Bible??
What are the first two words of AoF 8? Explain how belief = doubt.


What’s just silly? More information. If I didn’t have to second guess what you are trying to get across to me we may be able to make some progress.
"As Far as I am concerned in the Mormon thought there is no god because it is all contrary to the teaching of the Bible." Remember that?


This is another spot that more information would be nice. What are you talking about??
I'm talking about you flip-flopping back and forth on whether we need to believe certain doctrines to be saved. For example, in post #5 you said we need to believe that Jesus is the creator of everything that was created and that he is not the spirit brother of Lucifer. Then in post #10 you said we are not compelled to believe doctrine in order to be saved.

[Saxon]

Several times in this thread. Every time I point out that according to your one and only criterion Mormons must be saved, you counter with several doctrines that we must also believe to be saved.

Let us keep in mind the context as to what I have said. Remember, that I do not believe that Mormons are Christians. I do not believe that Mormons are involved with the one God that is the only God that exists. I also don’t believe that Mormons take the Bible seriously. See LSD Articles of Faith number 8.

When I say that all a person needs to do in order to gain salvation is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ You can disagree as much as you want, but you cannot think for one minute that I am relating my statement to Mormon doctrine. This is where you are being confused. In order to understand what I am saying you need to compare the statements that I am making with the Bible scripture that I offer as support. Again, you do not have to agree with what I say.

It would be good if when you say that I am lying that you support that comment with a statement from the Mormon so called scripture. This is what makes a conversation instead of me continuously repeating myself and answering unnecessary questions.

When do I counter with several doctrines that you must also believe to be saved? Give me some examples. You must be misunderstanding because if there is only one thing to do in order to gain salvation, there is nothing else to do to gain salvation. You don’t seem to be able to conceive a before salvation and an after salvation existence in earthly life.




It's a lie because it is not Mormon thought that Jesus was conceived in Mary by her having sexual relations with heavenly father. Didn't you know that?

I don’t agree. It is a disagreement. We can disagree until the cows come home but that does not make it a lie. If that was the case then you would be equally a liar because what you say does not line up with Bible thought.

Brigham Young taught: "The birth of the Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood---was begotten of his Father as we were of our fathers" (Journal of Discourses vol.8, p.115)

It is up to you to tell me what Brigham said and meant by, “it was the result of natural action”. This sounds like sexual relations to me. What does the result of natural action sound like to you?




False. Many of your beliefs about Christ come from extra-Biblical creeds and councils.

Where have I quoted any Creeds and councils as support for Bible statements? I do not look outside the Bible for support of clear statements.




So you really don't know what we believe? Isn't it a bit presumptuous to attack a church when you don't even know their doctrine?

What makes you think that I don’t know what the LDS teach? If I say something and can support it from LDS sources then I know it, especially if you can’t or won't counter is with more than your mantra, ”it’s a lie”. Start showing me why it isn't true.




What are the first two words of AoF 8? Explain how belief = doubt.

We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. (Articles of faith 8)

It isn't the first two words that offend the Bible but the phrase, “as far as it is translated correctly” leaves the Bible open to suspicion at any time that anyone disagrees with Mormon doctrine. As far as translation goes there are no reliable versions of the Bible that are in disagreement as far as translation goes.




"As Far as I am concerned in the Mormon thought there is no god because it is all contrary to the teaching of the Bible." Remember that?

I remember that. Now it is up to you to show me that what the LDS teach is not contrary to the teaching of the Bible.




I'm talking about you flip-flopping back and forth on whether we need to believe certain doctrines to be saved. For example, in post #5 you said we need to believe that Jesus is the creator of everything that was created and that he is not the spirit brother of Lucifer. Then in post #10 you said we are not compelled to believe doctrine in order to be saved.

Where did I say, “We need to believe that Jesus is the creator of everything that was created and that he is not the spirit brother of Lucifer” in order to gain salvation. I was commenting on the fact if we believe in a false Jesus we believe for nothing as believing on a false Jesus will not result in salvation. My statement, “we are not compelled to believe doctrine in order to be saved", still stands.

[Erundur]

Let us keep in mind the context as to what I have said. Remember, that I do not believe that Mormons are Christians. I do not believe that Mormons are involved with the one God that is the only God that exists. I also don’t believe that Mormons take the Bible seriously. See LSD Articles of Faith number 8.
Irrelevant to your self-contradictions and flip-flopping.


When I say that all a person needs to do in order to gain salvation is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ You can disagree as much as you want, but you cannot think for one minute that I am relating my statement to Mormon doctrine.
Earlier you said that the requirements are not different based on denomination. So either your statement applies to Mormons, or you're contradicting yourself.


When do I counter with several doctrines that you must also believe to be saved? Give me some examples.
Post #5.


I don’t agree. It is a disagreement.
You don't get to disagree. It's an objective fact.


What makes you think that I don’t know what the LDS teach?
Your statements in this thread.


It isn't the first two words that offend the Bible but the phrase, “as far as it is translated correctly” leaves the Bible open to suspicion at any time that anyone disagrees with Mormon doctrine.
No it doesn't. It says nothing of the kind. You're just making stuff up.


I remember that. Now it is up to you to show me that what the LDS teach is not contrary to the teaching of the Bible.
No, it's up to you to back up your claims.


Where did I say, “We need to believe that Jesus is the creator of everything that was created and that he is not the spirit brother of Lucifer” in order to gain salvation.
Post #5.

[Christian]

Hi Saxon:

One question:

Is that belief a faith without works--in your theology?

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

dberry is posting his ignorance about James 2:26 again. . .

As he has been shown, FAITH BRINGS WORKS, ALWAYS. The ONLY exceptions would be those UNABLE TO DO works such as blind, deaf mutes, folks who go into comas, etc.

So berry, IF a man receives Jesus Christ on his deathbed, do you think HIS faith is dead to GOD?

Oh, so that is NOT what it means?

I suspect you should think that one through a bit more, berry. . .

[Christian]

Okay. Mormons believe, so we must be saved, right?

mormons believe in joey smith's 'spirit-brother-of-satan-jesus.'
Muslims believe in their 'alah'
Others believe in baal.

WHO or WHAT you believe IN matters. No, mormons, muslims, and worshipers of baal are NOT saved.

[Phoenix]

mormons believe in joey smith's 'spirit-brother-of-satan-jesus.'
Muslims believe in their 'alah'
Others believe in baal.
trinitarian calvinists believe in their "3-in-one" paradox who condemns most humans to hell before it even creates them, and does so for no sensible, rational, fair reason.


WHO or WHAT you believe IN matters.
So trinitarian calvinists are not saved, if people can't be saved if they have some incorrect beliefs about God.

[Erundur]

WHO or WHAT you believe IN matters. No, mormons, muslims, and worshipers of baal are NOT saved.
Okay, so believing in Jesus Christ is not enough to be saved. Then list for us the additional requirements.

[alanmolstad]

Okay, so believing in Jesus Christ is not enough to be saved. Then list for us the additional requirements.
SaSalvation isn't by faith
salvation isn't by works
nor is it due to a mix of faith and works

salvation is only by Grace though faith and not by works so that no man might Boast he has salvation via his own deeds

[dberrie2000]

Hi Saxon:

One question:

Is that belief a faith without works--in your theology?

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


Always the same question! In the context of James 2:26, faith is always ***ociated with works.

Then faith alone theology cannot be true.

[dberrie2000]

[COLOR=#0000FF]dberry is posting his ignorance about James 2:26 again. . .As he has been shown, FAITH BRINGS WORKS, ALWAYS.

As the scriptures show--it's dead faith without obedience to Christ:

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Do you believe one can be saved through dead faith?

[Apologette]

No... Only your interpretation of the Bible is all. Luckily you have been unable to even convince your own fellow Christians of this nonsense. Which is why I wonder why you are here? Do you believe the Mormons are more gullible than they are?

Wait a minute, look at your thread ***le, there is nothing in it about faith, or grace.... just believe. You seem to be changing your tune once the fallacy of your theology has been exposed.

I never said anything about obligation, that is your strawman that you created in order to divert attention from your failed argument.

True, but that has nothing to do with your ***ertion.

I actually meant to be amusing, however the problem is that you did not write "Believe"
The fact that this went right over your head only demonstrates your inability to comprehend the simplist of statements, let alone something complicated like the Bible.


You stated all one had to do is to believe to be saved...
Its been put forward to you numerous times that we as Mormons believe in the Lord Jesus Christ of the Bible, ergo... We are saved, right?
If not, why not?

This is where you then start adding on all kinds of qualifiers and actions we as Mormons must first do to be saved. Anyone who has read this thread can see your hypocrisy.

This just points to another one of your hypocrisies. 85% of people who call themselves Christian see Faith Alone AKA, "Cheap Grace" as a heresy, yet you still see them as saved. In fact, if you truely believe that works has nothing to do with salvation, then the fact that we and the vast majority of Christian faiths believe they do, and practice such; will not in any way change whether we are saved or not.... So why bother telling us about it, if it changes nothing anyway.

The way I see it, is if we are right in that we need both works and faith to be saved, then we will be saved if we have both, yet you will not be saved because you lack works.
On the other hand if you are right and faith/belief is all that was needed to be saved, then we are still saved because we still at least have faith....

It's a win-win for us, as we have both bases covered.
However, you've only got 50%-50% chance at salvation.

Hey, "theway," aren't you permanently banned from CARM for using double posting names?

[theway]

Hey, "theway," aren't you permanently banned from CARM for using double posting names?No.... No I was not... And you already know that because you were the one who got me banned on another false statement of yours which you told them I had said.

I realize it's hard for a person to try and keep their false accusations straight...

[Apologette]

No.... No I was not... And you already know that because you were the one who got me banned on another false statement of yours which you told them I had said.

I realize it's hard for a person to try and keep their false accusations straight...

So, tell us "the way" NOT, haven't you been banned from CARM for using multiple posting names? If not that, care to share just why you are banned?

[theway]

So, tell us "the way" NOT, haven't you been banned from CARM for using multiple posting names? If not that, care to share just why you are banned?
No... thats not why I was banned, and I've already shared the reason on this forum.

[Saxon]

Irrelevant to your self-contradictions and flip-flopping.

Examples. You keep writing and saying nothing.




Earlier you said that the requirements are not different based on denomination. So either your statement applies to Mormons, or you're contradicting yourself.

What you fail to comprehend is that the LDS Jesus is not the same as the Jesus that is described in the Bible.

The Jesus of the Bible is NOT the spirit brother of Lucifer. Jesus of the Bible created Lucifer. Jesus of the Bible was NOT a spirit child of the Father. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the one God. There is no other God that exists.

The Bible says to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. This is in reference to the Jesus of the Bible not the polytheistic Jesus of Mormon thought. You can believe in a being called Jesus that is not the Jesus of the Bible all you want and nothing close to salvation will occur within you.

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Galatians 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Galatians 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.




Post #5.

You need to be more specific, I am not guessing what you are talking about.




You don't get to disagree. It's an objective fact.

I do get to disagree, I did and I still disagree now.




Your statements in this thread.

You need to be more specific, I am not guessing what you are talking about.




No it doesn't. It says nothing of the kind. You're just making stuff up.

It does, read Articles of Faith #8.




No, it's up to you to back up your claims.

I back my claims but you don’t back anything you say. Read the statements in the quotes, their all yours and no backup.




Post #5

Read it again; that statement is not there.

[Saxon]

Explain why it cannot be true!

[Erundur]

What you fail to comprehend is that the LDS Jesus is not the same as the Jesus that is described in the Bible.
That's correct, I don't comprehend anti-Mormon lies.


The Jesus of the Bible is NOT the spirit brother of Lucifer. Jesus of the Bible created Lucifer. Jesus of the Bible was NOT a spirit child of the Father. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the one God. There is no other God that exists.
All of this is irrelevant for salvation. We don't have to believe doctrine to be saved, remember?


The Bible says to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.
Great. Mormons believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, so we must be saved, right?

[Saxon]

That's correct, I don't comprehend anti-Mormon lies.

No, no; it is that you don’t comprehend Bible truth.




All of this is irrelevant for salvation. We don't have to believe doctrine to be saved, remember?

Believing a lie is not the same as believing the truth.




Great. Mormons believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, so we must be saved, right?

When you believe on the Jesus that is of the Bible then you will be save, of that there is no doubt. Believing a lie will not get you saved.

[Erundur]

No, no; it is that you don’t comprehend Bible truth.
Of course I do; that's how I see through anti-Mormon lies.


Believing a lie is not the same as believing the truth.
Then you'd better start believing the truth.


When you believe on the Jesus that is of the Bible then you will be save, of that there is no doubt.
Mormons believe on the Jesus that is of the Bible, so we must be saved, right?


Believing a lie will not get you saved.
But believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, like Mormons do, will, right?

[dberrie2000]

Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post--Hi Saxon:

One question:

Is that belief a faith without works--in your theology?

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post

Always the same question! In the context of James 2:26, faith is always ***ociated with works.

Then faith alone theology cannot be true.

Bump for anyone

[Saxon]

Faith alone for what????

[Saxon]

Of course I do; that's how I see through anti-Mormon lies.

If you comprehended Bible truth you would not have been sucked into the vortex of Mormon lies.




Then you'd better start believing the truth.

I have been believing the truth of the Bible for 43 years to date.




Mormons believe on the Jesus that is of the Bible, so we must be saved, right?

Mormons do not believe on the Jesus that is of the Bible, so you must not be saved, right?




But believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, like Mormons do, will, right?

But believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, like Mormons do, will never get you saved, right?

[Erundur]

Mormons do not believe on the Jesus that is of the Bible
That is a lie.


But believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, like Mormons do, will never get you saved, right?
Wrong.

[alanmolstad]

If you comprehended Bible truth you would not have been sucked into the vortex of Mormon lies.





I have been believing the truth of the Bible for 43 years to date.





Mormons do not believe on the Jesus that is of the Bible, so you must not be saved, right?





But believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, like Mormons do, will never get you saved, right?

Amen........

[Saxon]

You keep saying that, now support you in-depth statements.

[Saxon]

Amen to that!!!

[alanmolstad]

I call em how I see em

[dberrie2000]

Always the same question!

In the context of James 2:26, faith is always ***ociated with works.


Then faith alone theology cannot be true.


Faith alone for what????

For just what the faith alone preach--salvation. The faith alone preach a salvation through a faith without works--a faith alone theology. The Bible has a different take on that:

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

So--if you believe faith is always ***ociated with works--how can faith alone theology be true?

[Saxon]

Faith does not save anyone. What's your problem?

Works doesn't save anyone and works and faith together doesn't save anyone either.

[Christian]

Faith does not save anyone. What's your problem?

Works doesn't save anyone and works and faith together doesn't save anyone either.

Faith in JESUS CHRIST saves. Faith in donald duck does not. JESUS is the Savior, not faith itself.

[Christian]

As the scriptures show--it's dead faith without obedience to Christ:

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Do you believe one can be saved through dead faith?

The faith GOD gives us in Jesus Christ is NEVER dead. Works follow.

Perhaps if you knew MORE of the Bible than just that one isolated verse. . .you wouldn't be so confused.

[Saxon]

Faith in JESUS CHRIST saves. Faith in donald duck does not. JESUS is the Savior, not faith itself.

When you say that faith saves I can understand what and why you are saying that and basically have no problem with it. In Ephesians 2:8 it states clearly that it is through faith. The human side of the salvation transaction is totally faith and it is faith alone that a person must have in Christ that will lead to salvation.

Ephesians 2:8 also states that it is by grace that you are saved. The idea of just what grace is can lead to differing thoughts of what saves us in reality. At this point, salvation, I take grace to be the at***ude that God has toward the human race. The God side of the salvation transaction is grace. It is God that does the saving. We as humans do not, cannot and will not ever be worthy of salvation, therefor it is God that saves us and it is only because he has an at***ude of grace towards us that he does save us. This is fueled by the unfathomable love that God has for all of mankind. (See John 3:16).

God is never in a position that he is obligated to save anyone. We can have all the faith that God gives us and still God is not obligated to save anyone. God and God alone saves.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

[Phoenix]

The faith GOD gives us in Jesus Christ is NEVER dead.
What about people who had faith, but they let it die....such as those who commit the unpardonable sin?

[dberrie2000]

When you say that faith saves I can understand what and why you are saying that and basically have no problem with it. In Ephesians 2:8 it states clearly that it is through faith. The human side of the salvation transaction is totally faith and it is faith alone that a person must have in Christ that will lead to salvation.

Again--there is but one mention of "faith alone" found in the Biblical text:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[Apologette]

No.... No I was not... And you already know that because you were the one who got me banned on another false statement of yours which you told them I had said.

I realize it's hard for a person to try and keep their false accusations straight...

No, you made the statement that what CARM was engaging in activity for which it could be sued. You knew exactly what you were doing, pal. When you get employed, and work as an attorney, then maybe we'll listen to you.

[theway]

No, you made the statement that what CARM was engaging in activity for which it could be sued. You knew exactly what you were doing, pal. When you get employed, and work as an attorney, then maybe we'll listen to you.
Well then, on that same note... As soon as you get a theology degree from an accredited university (and not one from a diploma mill), become an ordained Minister/Preacher, become a member of the LDS Church, or even at the very least of read the Book of Mormon from cover to cover.... then maybe we'll listen to you.

I notice also that you did not deny that my findings were correct or accurate?
I thought you said you were one who stood up for the truth no matter where it comes from?

[dberrie2000]

The faith GOD gives us in Jesus Christ is NEVER dead.

The faith alone preach a gospel of salvation through a faith without works. Isn't that labeled a dead faith in the Biblical text?

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


Works follow.

***igning an ordering arrangement to protect a faith alone theology is nothing less than boundary maintenance. The scriptures state faith without works is dead--end of story.


Perhaps if you knew MORE of the Bible than just that one isolated verse. . .you wouldn't be so confused.

You aren't thinking Christ was confused--are you?

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.


Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

[Saxon]

Again--there is but one mention of "faith alone" found in the Biblical text:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

I take it that you never read the rest of the post with any ability to comprehend. Faith does not save. Grace does not save. It is God alone that saves and that is only because of his at***ude of grace that he has for man. There is no way that a human can ever be worthy of salvation that is why it is by God’s grace that he saves anyone.

In your form of salvation, after all that you can do, how do you know that you have done all that you can do? You’re working for salvation is at best, a turkey shoot. You will never know if you are saved let alone having reached exaltation. There seems to be a difference according to LDS web sites.

You are taking James 2:24 out of context. Are the unsaved ever justified? No! Justification is after salvation.

What is exaltation? (https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-47-exaltation?lang=eng)
Exaltation is eternal life, the kind of life God lives. He lives in great glory. He is perfect. He possesses all knowledge and all wisdom. He is the Father of spirit children. He is a creator. We can become like our Heavenly Father. This is exaltation.

Salvation (https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/salvation)
To be saved from both physical and spiritual death. All people will be saved from physical death by the grace of God, through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Each individual can also be saved from spiritual death as well by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ. This faith is manifested in a life of obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel and service to Christ.

[alanmolstad]

I believe Jill was very clear in telling all here that we should not drag problems and issues with people from other Forums back here on to this forum...

We all saw this right?...we all understand this correct?.....

[dberrie2000]

I take it that you never read the rest of the post with any ability to comprehend. Faith does not save. Grace does not save.

Ephesians 2:8---King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


It is God alone that saves and that is only because of his at***ude of grace that he has for man. There is no way that a human can ever be worthy of salvation that is why it is by God’s grace that he saves anyone.

No one has argued that God saves by His grace--only that it's the obedient to Christ whom receives that grace:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


In your form of salvation, after all that you can do,

Would that be this form of salvation?

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.


how do you know that you have done all that you can do?

The same way one can know he has enough faith to be saved.


You’re working for salvation is at best, a turkey shoot.

Did these work for salvation?

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

In the faith alone theology--anyone who believes they have to obey Christ with any act of obedience--are those who believe they have to work of salvation. The faith alone preach a gospel of salvation without works--IE--salvation through a dead faith:

James 2:20--King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

[Saxon]

Ephesians 2:8---King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Good, now tell me what you believe grace to be. Without that explanation your answer is useless.




No one has argued that God saves by His grace--only that it's the obedient to Christ whom receives that grace:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

It isn’t obedience that causes God to save but love. (See John 3:16) Tell me what you believe grace to be. Without that explanation your answer is useless.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.




Would that be this form of salvation?
Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

No.




The same way one can know he has enough faith to be saved.

Don’t stop there, tell me about how you know you have enough faith to be saved. This is what you always do, you make sure that you never answer a question or give an incomplete answer. Are you afraid to stand on your beliefs??




Did these work for salvation?

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

In the faith alone theology--anyone who believes they have to obey Christ with any act of obedience--are those who believe they have to work of salvation. The faith alone preach a gospel of salvation without works--IE--salvation through a dead faith:

James 2:20--King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Ephesians 2:9 says that salvation is not of works, so they did not work for salvation.

You are beating the “dead faith” to death. You still don’t work for salvation. After you are saved then you do the works. That is the Bible way.

The LDS way is work until you are dead and then if you have enough works you might have made it. In reality, the Bible way, you will find that your works to earn salvation are all futile as the Bible has not changed and it still says “not of works”.

[Phoenix]

The salient question is this:

Are there conditions--things that we MUST do--in order to inherit eternal life?

The answer has to be either "yes" or "no."

Like many other Christians--probably the majority of Christians--the LDS say the answer is "yes."

What is YOUR answer?

[Saxon]

The salient question is this:

Are there conditions--things that we MUST do--in order to inherit eternal life?

The answer has to be either "yes" or "no."

Like many other Christians--probably the majority of Christians--the LDS say the answer is "yes."

What is YOUR answer?

The answer is more than a yes or no. If I said yes, then you would think that I have caved to LDS thought that there is works that will cause God to have to save you. The Bible still says not of works.

If I say no, then you will think that I follow the Calvinist thought of predestination. I do not.

The only thing that a person must do is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved. (See Acts 16:30 and 31)

My answer is that there is nothing that you can do that will place God into a position that he is obligated to save.

Grace does not save. Faith does not save. Salvation is a gift of God, God saves because of his at***ude of grace towards mankind and that is because we cannot earn salvation. God’s love of the human race is what drives God to save. (See John 3:16) God saves by grace

What do you believe grace to be?

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

[Phoenix]

The answer is more than a yes or no. If I said yes, then you would think that I have caved to LDS thought that there is works that will cause God to have to save you. The Bible still says not of works.
You have about 3 problems in that part of your post:

1. There can't be any other answer than "yes" or "no" the question, which was
"Are there conditions--things that we MUST do--in order to inherit eternal life? "

2. When Paul said that works cannot save a person, he was referring to the works mentioned in the Jewish Torah. The LDS agree with Paul.

3. Jesus, and the LDS, believe that Jesus was made the author of salvation to all who OBEY Him in faith. There are far more Bible verses that mention obedience as a condition for eternal life, than there are that mention faith alone as the sole condition for eternal life. (Spoiler alert: There aren't ANY verses that say that faith is the sole requirement.)

4. Just as a reminder, LDS DON'T teach or believe that works will cause God to save you.


If I say no, then you will think that I follow the Calvinist thought of predestination. I do not.
Not predestination per se, but the Calvinist dogma of cheap grace, where there is nothing a person can do, or should do, in order to make grace efficacious towards his salvation.


The only thing that a person must do is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved. (See Acts 16:30 and 31)
You added the word "only" but the Bible doesn't have it. Rev. 22 says you'll be cursed if you add to the Bible, according to some Christians.



My answer is that there is nothing that you can do that will place God into a position that he is obligated to save.
You contradict your answer below.


Grace does not save.
So you don't believe the Bible where Paul says that we are saved by grace through faith?


...God saves because of his at***ude of grace towards mankind and that is because we cannot earn salvation. God’s love of the human race is what drives God to save.
You believe that God is DRIVEN to save people. Isn't that the same as saying the God is obligated to save people? No matter how you word it, it's against His nature NOT to save people, right? So God is basically COMPELLED to save people. It's integral to who He is. He can't NOT save people just like He can't not be a liar.

The question to ask, then, is: By what criteria does God decide who to save, and who to not save? The Bible says it's based on faith and obedience. Obedience-only salvation, if you have no faith in Christ and the God who sent Him, is false. So is faith-only salvation, that has no obedience--just ask James.


(See John 3:16) God saves by grace
What do you believe grace to be?
God is the person or being who saves, yes. Grace is WHAT saves us. Grace is what God applies to those who faithfully obey Him, and that results in their salvation.

[dberrie2000]

Ephesians 2:8---King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

No one has argued that God saves by His grace--only that it's the obedient to Christ whom receives that grace:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Would that be this form of salvation?

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

The same way one can know he has enough faith to be saved.

Did these work for salvation?

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

In the faith alone theology--anyone who believes they have to obey Christ with any act of obedience--are those who believe they have to work of salvation. The faith alone preach a gospel of salvation without works--IE--salvation through a dead faith:

James 2:20--King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


Good, now tell me what you believe grace to be. Without that explanation your answer is useless.

The forgiveness of sins is God's grace, and without it, salvation is not possible--which goes to them that obey Him, and walk in His light:

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


It isn’t obedience that causes God to save but love. (See John 3:16)

How does that negate the fact God does not give His salvational grace to the disobedient?

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Galatians 6:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Romans 6:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?


Tell me what you believe grace to be. Without that explanation your answer is useless.

God's grace to mankind includes the gift of the Holy Ghost:

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.


John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

In your estimation--is that reference to faith ---a reference to dead faith--or a faith with works?

James 2:26--King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


Don’t stop there, tell me about how you know you have enough faith to be saved.

Matthew 7:20---King James Version (KJV)
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

[Saxon]

The forgiveness of sins is God's grace, and without it, salvation is not possible--which goes to them that obey Him, and walk in His light:

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Well thank you for a straight answer. I desperately disagree with it. The forgiveness of sins is because God has the grace to forgive. Forgiveness is not grace but because of God’s grace.




How does that negate the fact God does not give His salvational grace to the disobedient?

On the contrary, God saves the disobedient. Show me any lost person that is obedient to God and I will show you the figment of your imagination.




God's grace to mankind includes the gift of the Holy Ghost:

Well thank you for a straight answer. I desperately disagree with it. The gift of the Holy Ghost comes with salvation that comes by the grace of God. The Holy Ghost is not the grace of God but is given because God has the grace to give the Holy Ghost to the saved.




In your estimation--is that reference to faith ---a reference to dead faith--or a faith with works?

James 2:26--King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The reference to John 3:16 is made with the Fact that it is a faith that is pleasing to God. Again, faith or believing in Christ does not put God in a position that he is obligated to save any one.

You comment is out of biblical context because the Bible is clear that salvation is not of works but is a gift from God. You do not work for a gift. A gift is free of any cost or earning of it by the receiver. The only works that are acceptable to God are the works that are done after we have been created in Christ Jesus, saved.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.



Matthew 7:20---King James Version (KJV)
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

That does not answer the question, how you know you have enough faith to be saved?

[Saxon]

You have about 3 problems in that part of your post:

1. There can't be any other answer than "yes" or "no" the question, which was
"Are there conditions--things that we MUST do--in order to inherit eternal life? "

Like I said, if I answer yes or no, you are free to jump to any conclusion you want to. I answered the way I did so you will know what I believe, not what you wish to think I believe.




2. When Paul said that works cannot save a person, he was referring to the works mentioned in the Jewish Torah. The LDS agree with Paul.

When Paul said not of works he meant not of works. There is no hint in the text that there was anything more to be added or it would have been added. The terms grace and gift totally eliminate any type of works that you care to mention.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.




3. Jesus, and the LDS, believe that Jesus was made the author of salvation to all who OBEY Him in faith. There are far more Bible verses that mention obedience as a condition for eternal life, than there are that mention faith alone as the sole condition for eternal life. (Spoiler alert: There aren't ANY verses that say that faith is the sole requirement.)

When Paul said not of works he meant not of works. There is no hint in the text that there was anything more to be added or it would have been added. The terms grace and gift totally eliminate any type of works that you care to mention.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

As fare as your spoiler alert goes I have said many times that faith does not save anyone. No spoiler here.




4. Just as a reminder, LDS DON'T teach or believe that works will cause God to save you.

If you don’t do any works, then what? Will you be saved in accordance with LDS doctrine?




Not predestination per se, but the Calvinist dogma of cheap grace, where there is nothing a person can do, or should do, in order to make grace efficacious towards his salvation.

Like I said, I don’t believe there doctrine of salvation or anything in TULIP.




You added the word "only" but the Bible doesn't have it. Rev. 22 says you'll be cursed if you add to the Bible, according to some Christians.

This forum doesn’t cons***ute the Bible. I said, “The only thing that a person must do is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved. (See Acts 16:30 and 31)” The reason that I said only is because that is the only thing that a person must do. There is nothing else that can be done. Believing does not save anyone, God saves because he has an at***ude of grace toward mankind, so by god’s grace, god saves us.

I am not worried about one word on a forum. I would be worried if I were participating with a group that has added three books that are in contradiction to the Bible. To me, that is a worry.




You contradict your answer below.

Which one?




So you don't believe the Bible where Paul says that we are saved by grace through faith?

Of course I believe the Bible where Paul says that we are saved by grace through faith. How would you ever come to that conclusion? I have quoted and explained my belief of that statement just about every third or fourth time I post to the Mormon forum. But I shouldn’t be surprised as I don’t think you pay attention to much of what I say.

God saves because of his at***ude of grace towards mankind and that is because we cannot earn salvation.

[Saxon]

You believe that God is DRIVEN to save people. Isn't that the same as saying the God is obligated to save people? No matter how you word it, it's against His nature NOT to save people, right? So God is basically COMPELLED to save people. It's integral to who He is. He can't NOT save people just like He can't not be a liar.

Driven, determined, motivated, or ambitious does not equate with obligated. Compelled is also a good term. Being compelled by love does not equal an obligation. God will not save people that do not believe.




The question to ask, then, is: By what criteria does God decide who to save, and who to not save? The Bible says it's based on faith and obedience. Obedience-only salvation, if you have no faith in Christ and the God who sent Him, is false. So is faith-only salvation, that has no obedience--just ask James.

It is based on believing. God, by his grace saves those that believe. You ask James if the lost are justified before they are saved? The saved are justified not the lost.

Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is p***ed from death unto life.

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Acts 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

Romans 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

1Peter 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

1Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

1John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
1John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
1John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.




God is the person or being who saves, yes. Grace is WHAT saves us. Grace is what God applies to those who faithfully obey Him, and that results in their salvation.

Don’t be foolish, God saves. Does God have a great large jar of grace to slather on people and the chemical reaction saves them??

[dberrie2000]

The forgiveness of sins is God's grace, and without it, salvation is not possible--which goes to them that obey Him, and walk in His light:

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.



How does that negate the fact God does not give His salvational grace to the disobedient?

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Galatians 6:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Romans 6:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?


Well thank you for a straight answer. I desperately disagree with it. The forgiveness of sins is because God has the grace to forgive. Forgiveness is not grace but because of God’s grace.

I've never heard a Christian deny the forgiveness of sins is not God's grace to mankind.


On the contrary, God saves the disobedient.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Galatians 6:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.


Show me any lost person that is obedient to God and I will show you the figment of your imagination.

That only connects obedience with salvation.


Well thank you for a straight answer. I desperately disagree with it. The gift of the Holy Ghost comes with salvation that comes by the grace of God. The Holy Ghost is not the grace of God but is given because God has the grace to give the Holy Ghost to the saved.

So--one is saved without the gift of the Holy Ghost?

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Whenever the faith alone are backed into a corner with obvious contradictions to the Biblical text--it seems they make up all sorts of contortions to the scriptures to fit their theology. The fact is--the Biblical text defy faith alone theology.

[Saxon]

I've never heard a Christian deny the forgiveness of sins is not God's grace to mankind.

You still have not told me what grace is to you, what does grace mean?

Forgiveness of sins in itself is not God’s grace. Forgiveness of sins comes because God has an at***ude of grace toward man and it is because of the grace that God has toward man the God forgives sins. You are always detracting from God to something less.




That only connects obedience with salvation.

The saved are obedient, the lost are not. What comes first, salvation of the lost disobedient soul or obedience to the lost soul that can never be obedient in a lost condition?




So--one is saved without the gift of the Holy Ghost?

No. The Holy Ghost indwells the believer the moment he believes.




Whenever the faith alone are backed into a corner with obvious contradictions to the Biblical text--it seems they make up all sorts of contortions to the scriptures to fit their theology. The fact is--the Biblical text defy faith alone theology.

Faith alone for what? You never answer that question either.

[Saxon]

Grace is given to us through Jesus Christ. It is the difference that is made up through His Atonement which can allow us to walk back into the presence of the Father. One confusion among traditional Christians is they treat the words "faith" and "grace" as interchangeable which they are not.

Yes, grace is given to us, but what IS grace according to you? You say it is the difference made up through his atonement. The difference of what?

Christians do not treat faith and grace as interchangeable. Man is to put faith out to Jesus Christ and God puts out grace toward man. There is a huge difference that any Christian clearly knows. Who are you to tell how a Christian treats faith and grace when you have no idea what faith and grace are from a biblical point of view.




The scriptures say we are saved by grace through faith, but it never says it is by faith alone. Whenever the scriptures say we aren't saved by works it strictly refers to the works of the Law of Moses. James teaches that faith is dead without works. You can use any scripture you want to try and prove otherwise but I believe all will agree that the scriptures were not given to us to be used against themselves. All the scriptures agree in one and I agree with them: it is never by one thing alone.

I am sorry that you think that way. The statement, “not of works” (See Ephesians 2:9) leaves no room for that kind or a thought. The text does not even hint at that. If you knew what the English term grace and gift meant (See Ephesians 2:8) you would not come to that conclusion. Ephesians 2:10 informs us that the good works that God would have us do comes after we are created in Christ Jesus (saved). You need to understand what a Christian means by the English term saved, before you presume to tell us what we mean.

I agree that the scriptures were not given to us to be used against themselves but I am not sure that you believe it when you can read Ephesians 2:8 to 10 and still believe that you have to work to get saved.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.




Grace is given because of faith; that same faith, however, MUST be accompanied by works of righteousness. Paul, to the Romans, said grace is given for obedience to the faith. To obey is to take action. Jesus said not everyone who confesses His name shall be saved, but those who "do the will of [his] Father which is in heaven."

You are confused as to what salvation is compared to justification. The lost are not justified and the lost will never be justified as long as they are in a lost condition. Salvation comes first and then justification of the saved person.

In Ephesians 2:8, when Paul says faith do you suspect that he is speaking of justification or salvation? When he says saved through faith he is speaking of salvation. Do we really have to second guess Paul in order to find out if he is speaking of a faith that is acceptable to God? If you look at what he wrote you should see that it isn’t faith that saves. For that matter it isn’t grace that saves either. You can have all the faith that you want that is acceptable to God and that will not save. The last statement in verse 8 says that it is the GIFT OF GOD. God saves. There is nothing that a person can do that will put God into a position that he is obligated to save. Not of works.




To those who say it is by faith alone, you may not realize it but you too believe you must "do" something to obtain grace. When the Holy Ghost bears testimony and provides you with faith, you must still accept that faith. To accept it is to do a work. Salvation never comes to those who do nothing; will a spiritual couch potato enter the kingdom of God? Never unless he or she repents and accepts the gospel as it has been restored.

Find out what the English term grace means and you will find out that you cannot obtain grace by any effort or work.

Explain how accepting faith is going to get you saved when, as you claim, it is a work and the Bible is quite clear that salvation is NOT OF WORKS. You said above that scriptures should not be used against themselves, why do you fight so hard against Ephesians 2:9?

Restored?? When was it ever in need of restoration? Matthew 24:35 says that the words of Jesus will not p*** away. Mark and Luke confirm this to be so. There is no way that a restoration was needed.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall p*** away, but my words shall not p*** away.

Mark 13:31 Heaven and earth shall p*** away: but my words shall not p*** away.

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall p*** away: but my words shall not p*** away.




Traditionalists say "just believe" but when we Latter-Day Saints say we believe, you extend your statement to a paragraph of "No, you must believe this, this, this, and that with this, that, and that. You have to get rid of this, that, this belief, and that belief."

Read the first post and then tell me that you need to do more than believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Don’t use other people as an excuse, you can read. Matthew and Mark have warned that there are false Christs. The only stipulation is that you believe on the Christ of the Bible, not the false Christs that come from man’s vile imaginings.

As far as getting rid of other beliefs, it is a matter of rejecting false beliefs and retaining truth.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.




To believe/believe on Jesus Christ and to believe in Jesus Christ are entirely different things. To believe in Him is to believe that He exists, to believe Him is to believe in His teachings are true and to display through an exemplary life as a disciple. For example, you must be baptized by one who holds the priesthood.

To believe on Jesus Christ and to believe in Jesus Christ are exactly the same thing.

And what is the priesthood that you speak of? The order of Melchizedek? That can’t be as there is only one priest of that order and that is Jesus.

By the Law of Moses each new priest had to be a descendant of Aaron and they ***umed the priesthood because of the law of succession made necessary by death; that is, regardless of how personally holy or desirous his predecessor was in remaining on and on as priest, they could not continue in the office beyond death. In contrast, the priesthood of Christ after the order of Melchizedek rests on the power of His endless and sinless life. God made Him a "priest forever". Since He would never die in this office, His eternal priesthood would make unnecessary the appointment of another priest after Him.

Any Christian can baptize because the believers priesthood is a royal priesthood (See 1 Peter 2:9). Why is LDS doctrine always contrary to the Bible??

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;




To say grace is given for obedience to the faith isn't a works based salvation. You must understand that a variable factor to an end result is not the same as the causation of the result. For example, eating healthy causes one to have better health. The food themselves are variable factors to the desired health but not the causation; the cause of the positive health comes from the vitamins, minerals, and nutrients found within the foods. Works and faith are both factors of salvation but it is the interconnection of both principles that are the causation for the Atonement of Jesus Christ to take effect in it's fullness so we are to obtain the grace it provides.

Now you are saying it isn’t a works based salvation, but your doctrines require works for salvation. Make up your mind. You can’t have it both ways. Your verbal gymnastics won’t cut it.

[dberrie2000]

I've never heard a Christian deny the forgiveness of sins is not God's grace to mankind.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Galatians 6:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

That only connects obedience with salvation.

So--one is saved without the gift of the Holy Ghost?

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Whenever the faith alone are backed into a corner with obvious contradictions to the Biblical text--it seems they make up all sorts of contortions to the scriptures to fit their theology. The fact is--the Biblical text defy faith alone theology.


You still have not told me what grace is to you, what does grace mean?

God's grace, for me--is God doing something for us that we can't do for ourselves.


Forgiveness of sins in itself is not God’s grace. Forgiveness of sins comes because God has an at***ude of grace toward man and it is because of the grace that God has toward man the God forgives sins. You are always detracting from God to something less.

Again--I've never heard a Christian deny that the forgiveness of sins is God's grace. How are you relating a belief that the forgiveness of sins is God's grace to man--as "detracting from God to something less." For me--anyone who denies the forgiveness of sins is God's grace--is denying the mercies of God.


The saved are obedient, the lost are not. What comes first, salvation of the lost disobedient soul or obedience to the lost soul that can never be obedient in a lost condition?

So--you believe these were saved prior to the Holy Ghost?

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.


No. The Holy Ghost indwells the believer the moment he believes.

Are these the ones who believed?

Acts 2:38-42---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

If so--then repentance and water baptism becomes integral components to the term "believe"--just as an engine is an integral component to the term "car".


Faith alone for what? You never answer that question either.

Salvation. If you have followed my posts--my concern is those of the faith alone theology preach a salvation through a faith without works--or--a faith that is alone for salvation:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[dberrie2000]

Christians do not treat faith and grace as interchangeable. Man is to put faith out to Jesus Christ and God puts out grace toward man.

Is this an example of faith in Christ for mankind--and God's grace?

Acts 2:38----King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[Saxon]

God's grace, for me--is God doing something for us that we can't do for ourselves.

I can understand what you are saying and I can see it also. I don’t believe that grace is an action, I believe that grace is an at***ude that God has towards man and it, the at***ude of grace is why God does something for us that we can’t do ourselves, like salvation.




Again--I've never heard a Christian deny that the forgiveness of sins is God's grace. How are you relating a belief that the forgiveness of sins is God's grace to man--as "detracting from God to something less." For me--anyone who denies the forgiveness of sins is God's grace--is denying the mercies of God.

Again, Forgiveness of sins is not grace, but the outcome from a God of grace.




So--you believe these were saved prior to the Holy Ghost?

How does that answer my question? What comes first, salvation of the lost disobedient soul or obedience to the lost soul that can never be obedient in a lost condition?

I try to answer your questions, how about you answering mine??

What do you mean “prior to the Holy Ghost?” The Holy Ghost is not in those that are in a lost condition.




Are these the ones who believed?

Acts 2:38-42---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

If so--then repentance and water baptism becomes integral components to the term "believe"--just as an engine is an integral component to the term "car".

Yes they are the ones that are saved. They repented and were baptized because they we saved, not to get saved. Believing came first, then salvation then repentance and baptism. The engine is part of the car, repentance and baptism are after salvation. When you are saved you are as saved as you ever will be. After salvation happens then you repent and get baptized. The lost won’t repent and being baptized if you are not saved is totally useless unless you are grimy and some of the grime gets washed off.




Salvation. If you have followed my posts--my concern is those of the faith alone theology preach a salvation through a faith without works--or--a faith that is alone for salvation:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Again, faith does not save anyone. That problem is solved. Justification id after salvation. The lost are never justified while they are in a lost condition. Works come after salvation. Salvation is “not of works”.

The problem you need to deal with is your unbelief in what the Bible is clearly and plainly saying, salvation is the gift of God, not of works.

[Saxon]

This is something that is done after salvation, Acts 2:38. A person has placed faith in Christ and God, by his grace, saved that person. After salvation we cannot put away faith in God and God does not stop being graceful to us. This continues as long as we are in Christ and physically alive. you have to differentiate between before salvation and after salvation.

[alanmolstad]

it goes like this...


We are saved by Grace 'though" faith, and not by any works at all...none...zip...zero.

This means that the only channel that grace takes to save men is via 'faith"....and not by "works"

This also is supports by the idea that faith without works is a dead faith, in that the one single "work" Christ talked about being needed is to "Believe in the Son"

This is also why Mormons have dead faith, for they have no works.

For the single work they should have is missing,m ( ie- To believe in the Jesus of the Bible.)

Mormons dont a living faith, they have traded the Jesus of the Bible for the false Jesus taught by Joe Smith...
(And Joe Smith just dreamed up his false idea about Jesus just to get laid...)


So when a Mormon dies, this is why they go directly to Hell and suffer forever in torment, for they had "Dead Faith" lacking works...

[alanmolstad]

Mormons are sent to hell due to all of them having Dead faith....(a faith without works is "Dead Faith")

For they have rejected the only 'work" Christ talked about that was to be sought, and that is the 'work" to believe in the true Son as taught in the Bible.

All Mormons reject the true Christ and have put all their hopes and prayers in a false Jesus that Joe Smith invented so that he could get girls into his bed.


This is why all Mormons end up toasting he Hell's fires, for they all have rejected the one true path to salvation and have been led into the fire by the guiding hands of a false prophet name Joe Smith...
Now Im sure at the final Judgement, all the Mormons will be shocked to find they have been condemned to eternal ****ation, and my try to say, "But did not all us Mormons do all these mighty works in your name?...did we not go door to door?..did we not travel across the world in your name?"

The problem is, they never knew the true Jesus of the Bible...

All the mighty works of the Mormons dont mean squat!
they still are condemned to hell's fire regardless.

[Saxon]

The difference of God's perfection and our lack thereof.

Christians DO interchange faith and grace. Every Christian I've come across has said in one sentence that we are saved by grace alone and a few minutes later say by faith alone. Faith and grace are principles that are simple to understand. Why you don't think I know what they are, I don't know. I do know what they are though from a true standpoint of the scriptures. I don't rely on people's interpretations, I rely on the Spirit of God.

I can’t speak for every Christian on the face of the Earth and you can’t either. Grace and faith are not interchangeable. Check an English dictionary.

I haven’t found a Mormon that knows what grace is. If you knew what grace is you wouldn’t be so stubborn about works and salvation. Grace being in the salvation equation automatically eliminates any ability of works to play a role in gaining salvation.




Read all of Paul's writings. He is speaking about the Law of Moses's works. That is evident. Anyone can take one verse and use it out of context such as you did by using Ephesians 2:9 by itself. In other words, because I believe different from you, I'm somehow automatically wrong. Because I'm a Mormon. I understand what these words mean.

That is just not true. Paul is talking about any attempt to earn salvation. What part of “not of works” do you not understand?

Explain to me how I have taken Ephesians 2:9 out of context. Don’t avoid this by asking another question.

I don’t believe that you can read Ephesians 2:8 to 10 and understand what it says because your Church teaches that they are the only true church and everyone else is wrong. Whenever the Bible says anything that is contrary to LDS teaching, articles of Faith number 8 comes into play. The whole Mormon population has been inoculated against sound Bible teaching.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.




Not just anyone can baptize. Anyone outside the LDS Church is not part of the royal priesthood. They perform baths and that's it. Those "baptisms" are not valid in heaven's eyes. I am one of many who hold the Melchizedek priesthood.

Another denial of clear Bible teaching. 1 Peter 2:8 to 10 states that the people of God are a royal priesthood. You nor any other Mormon do not hold the Melchizedek priesthood; that belongs to Jesus himself and no other.

By the Law of Moses each new priest had to be a descendant of Aaron and they ***umed the priesthood because of the law of succession made necessary by death; that is, regardless of how personally holy or desirous his predecessor was in remaining on and on as priest, they could not continue in the office beyond death. In contrast, the priesthood of Christ after the order of Melchizedek rests on the power of His endless and sinless life. God made Him a "priest forever". Since He would never die in this office, His eternal priesthood would make unnecessary the appointment of another priest after Him. (See Hebrews 7:21 to 24)


1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Hebrews 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)
Hebrews 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
Hebrews 7:23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
Hebrews 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.




I was very clear about how our beliefs are not a works based salvation while, at the same time, are not the heretical "do nothing" beliefs.

So how does your not of works but work for salvation work? You contradict yourself in one short statement. You are unbelievable!

[Saxon]

A variable isn't the same as a cause.

Every Mormon I know knows what grace is, myself included. You don't understand it because you do not have the Holy Ghost or the spirit of revelation, which is by the Holy Ghost, to guide you.

The Bible concept of grace is totally different than the Mormon concept.

Grace (https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/grace)
A word that occurs frequently in the New Testament, especially in the writings of Paul. The main idea of the word is divine means of help or strength, given through the bounteous mercy and love of Jesus Christ.

It is through the grace of the Lord Jesus, made possible by His atoning sacrifice, that mankind will be raised in immortality, every person receiving his body from the grave in a condition of everlasting life. It is likewise through the grace of the Lord that individuals, through faith in the Atonement of Jesus Christ and repentance of their sins, receive strength and ***istance to do good works that they otherwise would not be able to maintain if left to their own means. This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts.

Divine grace is needed by every soul in consequence of the Fall of Adam and also because of man’s weaknesses and shortcomings. However, grace cannot suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient. Hence the explanation, “It is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Ne. 25:23). It is truly the grace of Jesus Christ that makes salvation possible. This principle is expressed in Jesus’ parable of the vine and the branches (John 15:1–11). See also John 1:12–17; Eph. 2:8–9; Philip. 4:13; D&C 93:11–14.


Grace Defined (https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1279-true-meaning-of-grace-the)
“Grace” derives from the Greek, charis. In secular Greek, charis was related to chairo, “to rejoice.” As far back as Homer it denoted “sweetness” or “attractiveness.” It came to signify “favor,” “goodwill,” and “lovingkindness” — especially as granted by a superior to an inferior.

In the New Testament, “grace” (156 times) takes on a special redemptive sense in which God makes available his favor on behalf of sinners, who actually do not deserve it.

There is tremendous emphasis in the New Testament upon the fact that human salvation is the result of Heaven’s grace. This beautiful truth should never be minimized. At the same time, it must not be perverted. Unfortunately, much too often those with only a superficial concept of “grace” have hijacked the term and foisted upon it a sense alien to scriptural teaching. Let us consider some of the precious Bible truths ***ociated with the concept of salvation by grace.


Grace Is Not Earned (https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1279-true-meaning-of-grace-the)
Grace excludes merit. We must constantly remind ourselves that humanity is not deserving of salvation. No one can “earn” pardon by works of human merit. If such were the case, we could boast regarding our redemption; however, that is impossible (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Even if one were able to perform everything God commands, he still must regard himself as an “unprofitable servant” (Luke 17:10). Jesus taught that our sins have put us head-over-heels in debt, and no person has the innate ability to liquidate that obligation (cf. Matthew 18:24-27).

When this concept is truly grasped, service to Almighty God will flow with a freshness and zeal that invigorates the soul. Doubtless a failure to fathom the true significance of grace is the reason many church members are spiritually lethargic.

How do you come to that conclusion that I do not have the Holy Ghost or the spirit of revelation, which is by the Holy Ghost, to guide me?




You mean don't answer questions with a question? You realize the Savior answered with questions, right? I already explained it to you but you refuse to listen to anyone who is a Mormon. Read all of Paul's writings. He speaks of the law of Moses. It was this same Paul who said grace is given for obedience to the faith.

You’re not the Saviour and the question I ask is never answered by your counter question.

Yes, Paul speaks of the Law of Moses but that does not mean that every time works is mentioned, it is referring to the law of Moses.

Yes, God gives grace to the obedient, but being obedient is not putting God into a position of being obligated to save. Salvation is not of works, it is the GIFT of God. You can obey all you want but that is not going the obligate God to save you.




"Whenever the Bible says anything contrary to the LDS Church" That's your problem, you believe we are always wrong but the fact is there are zero imperfections in the gospel of Jesus Christ which is only found in this church. Our doctrine is never contrary to the Bible no matter how you try to twist the Bible. Protestants don't believe the Bible nor do nondenominationalists, Catholics, etc.

The Bible was in existence eons before the Book of Mormon, Pearl of great Price and Doctrine and Covenants. You statement should be, “Whenever the LDS Church says anything contrary to the Bible. Your anti Bible at***ude always causes you to degrade the Bible from its position of the first and only book of the Christian faith. You have done so to your own detriment because the authority of the only true book of the Christian faith has been usurped by the vain imaginings of a mortal man who has gone on to his just reward, I am sure.

Your doctrine is completely contrary to the Bible. The Bible says only one God. The LDS say multiple gods. That is different. The Bible says not of works. The LDS say works. That is not the only two, but enough to point out that the Bible does not agree with the LDS. It is the LDS that does not believe the Bible. Check Articles of Faith number 8!




I have studied the scriptures many times over and I know all of the doctrines agree with the Bible.
I don't deny Bible teachings, I deny your interpretation of scriptures. You aren't of the royal priesthood because you're not in the fold of the Lamb.

All that you have studied is LDS and have ignored the Bible. The only thing that you don’t deny is the LDS.

You do deny the Bible because you deny the clearly stated Bible in favour of the contradictions promulgated by the LDS.

[disciple]

I deny your beliefs, not the Bible. I've never come across anything in the church that the Bible doesn't support, including the plurality of gods or that the Lord expects us to do certain things. I believe in the Bible and Protestants need to start doing the same for once.

Read this today found it interesting.

"The eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to show his might in behalf of those whose heart is blameless toward him." (2 Chronicles 16:9)

What is God looking for in the world? ***istants? No. The gospel is not a “help wanted” ad. Neither is the call to Christian service.
God is not looking for people to work for him. “The eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to show his might in behalf of those whose heart is blameless toward him” (2 Chronicles 16:9).

What does God want from us? Not what we might expect. He rebukes Israel for bringing him so many sacrifices: “I will accept no bull from your house. . . . For every beast of the forest is mine. . . . If I were hungry, I would not tell you; for the world and all that is in it is mine” (Psalm 50:9–12).
But isn’t there something we can give to God that won’t belittle him to the status of beneficiary?

Yes. Our anxieties.

It’s a command: “Cast all your anxieties on him” (1 Peter 5:7). God will gladly receive anything from us that shows our dependence and his all-sufficiency.
Christianity is fundamentally convalescence. Patients do not serve their physicians. They trust them for good prescriptions. The Sermon on the Mount is our Doctor’s medical advice, not our Employer’s *** description.

Our very lives hang on not working for God. “To one who works, his wages are not reckoned as a gift but as his due. And to one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness” (Romans 4:4–5).

Workmen get no gifts. They get their due. If we would have the gift of justification, we dare not work. God is the workman in this affair. And what he gets is the glory of being the benefactor of grace, not the beneficiary of service.

[Phoenix]

The Bible concept of grace is totally different than the Mormon concept.
I don't think so, but I do think that the CALVINISTIC concept of grace IS, in fact a whole lot different.

[dberrie2000]

Mormons are sent to hell due to all of them having Dead faith....(a faith without works is "Dead Faith")

Which is exactly the post and pillar of faith alone theology--"sola fide"--faith alone. The faith alone preach a salvation through a faith that is alone--without works:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[Saxon]

I deny your beliefs, not the Bible. I've never come across anything in the church that the Bible doesn't support, including the plurality of gods or that the Lord expects us to do certain things. I believe in the Bible and Protestants need to start doing the same for once.

You are free to deny my beliefs if you wish. Your denial does not negate the truth of my beliefs whatsoever.

Yes, you have come across plenty that the Bible does not support.

PREMORTAL LIFE

LDS: Teach that everyone existed in heaven before born on earth. We have all existed eternally as ‘intellegences’ and were later born in heaven as spirit children of God and his wife. We later were born on earth as humans.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29:

Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Pearl of Great Price, Abraham 3:21:

I dwell in the midst of them all; ... for I rule in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath, in all wisdom and prudence, over all the intelligences thine eyes have seen from the beginning; I came down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen.

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 352-4:

I have another subject to dwell upon... It is ***ociated with the subject of the resurrection of the dead,--namely, the soul--the mind of man--the immortal spirit....All learned men and doctors of divinity say that God created it in the beginning; but it is not so: the very idea lessens man in my estimation....The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal with God himself....I am dwelling on the immortality of the spirit of man....The intelligence of spirits had no beginning, neither will it have an end....There never was a time when there were not spirits; for they are co-equal (co-eternal) with our Father in heaven. ...The first principles of man are self-existent with God.



BIBLE: Only Christ existed before mortality, not man. We did not have a spiritual existence prior to earth.

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Colossians 1:17 And he [Christ] is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Zechariah 12:1 ...saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

1 Corinthians 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

VIRGIN BIRTH

LDS: Believe God is a resurrected, physical man. He is the literal Father of Jesus by the same manner in which men are conceived on earth.

Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 546-547:

ONLY BEGOTTEN SON

Christ is the Only Begotten ..., the Only Begotten Son ..., the Only Begotten of the Father. (Moses 5:9.) These name-***les all signify that our Lord is the only Son of the Father in the flesh. Each of the words is to be understood literally. Only means only; Begotten means begotten; and Son means son. Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers.

Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 742:

SON OF GOD

God the Father is a perfected, glorified, holy Man, an immortal Personage. And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, for he is the Son of God, and that designation means what it says.

(See also The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, Bookcraft, 1988, p. 6-7; Family Home Evenings Manual, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1972, p. 125-126; Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Macmillan Pub., 1992, p. 725, 729, 739, 740, 1670, 1671; Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 115, vol. 11, p. 268; The Seer, p. 158.)



BIBLE: There is nothing in the Bible to indicate a physical relationship between God and Mary. Jesus’ conception is declared to be a miracle.

Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Luke 1:30-35 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary...thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS....Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee; therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

The Bible does not agree with LDS on any of the following topics either:

GODHEAD
JESUS CHRIST
THE FALL
SIN
FORGIVENESS
SALVATION BY GRACE
REDEEMED
GOSPEL
BORN AGAIN
TRUE CHURCH
AUTHORITY - PRIESTHOOD
BAPTISM
SONS OF GOD
ETERNAL LIFE
IMMORTALITY
HELL
HEAVEN
KINGDOM OF GOD

[Saxon]

I am far far from being a Calvinist, if that is what you are implying.

[Saxon]

Which means you believing the trinity doesn't necessarily make the trinity true doctrine, right? I believe what the scriptures say; the problem is you ***ume you know our beliefs. For starters, we don't believe God and Mary had a physical relationship. Reread what McConkie said about the birth of the Savior. He said Jesus was CONCEIVED and BORN in a normal way. What is the normal way to be conceived? Fertilization. Does that mean Elder McConkie spoke of sexual activity? No. For example, a woman can be impregnated by artificial insemination which requires no sexual activity between the two parties. Do we know exactly how Jesus was conceived? No. The scriptures do not say.

Me believing the Trinity does not make it true. The fact that the Trinity is from the Bible makes it true. I don’t think that you know what the scriptures (Bible) say and you don’t believe them.

The normal way conception occurs is by sexual activity. What planet are you from? Artificial insemination is not the NORMAL way of conception.

The scriptures do say try, see Luke 1:34 and 35. This is yet another demonstration of your Bible knowledge.

Luke 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.




As to the birth, he certainly was born the same way you and I were. Jesus came out of the womb of Mary. Did you think Mary spat Him out of her mouth or something? Every Christian would be wise to agree that Jesus was born like anyone else or shall look foolish.

Now you are being dumb!




The Bible testifies of our existence before earth just as it testifies to every single doctrine The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints because this is the same church Jesus set up in the New Testament. Christians believe the church started in NT times, this idea is false. The church is the body of believers. There have been bodies of believers since Adam and Eve thus the church of Jesus Christ was started in Adam's day.

That is no in the Bible. That is coming from your extra Biblical books that contradict the Bible.

I believe that Adam and Eve will be among the saved and many from the Old Testament will be in the Kingdom.




You quote the Bible but then again, I've been able to do that since I was 4 so you're on the same level as I was when I was 4 years old. Memorizing is great, understanding is better. There is no one outside the Church that believes the Bible and what it teaches. If so, everyone would be running toward the waters of baptism by those who hold the priesthy.

But you don’t believe it so what difference does that make? There is no one in the LDS that believe the Bible because when they do they exit as fast as they can. Mormon priesthood is not if any Bible authority because the Aaronic priesthood is gone and the Melchizedek priesthood belongs only to Jesus. More of your Bible knowledge? You really don’t know what you are talking about.

[Saxon]

First, you need to stop insulting others. "Now you are being dumb." This forum specifically forbids something like this.

I do apologize for the perceived insult. I can ***ure you that there was none intended. I understand how things that are said/written can be misunderstood, but none the less I again apologize.




Second, I certainly do believe the Bible and know exactly what I'm talking about. As I said, you don't know what we believe. There is no Trinity doctrine in the Bible. I've heard all of the so-called references that supposedly "support" it but none of them do. The Bible is true, not trinitarian.

If you do believe the Bible and understand what you are talking about explain the following verses in light of LDS doctrine. I think that the only way that you have studied the Bible is by filtering it through the LDS doctrine.

Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isaiah 45:5 I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

There is no term “Trinity” in the Bible, but the trinity is found in the Bible. LDS call it the Godhead. Mind you the LDS Godhead does not resemble the Bible Godhead or the term Trinity.

You are right, the Bible is true and it is not Trinitarian, but the Trinity concept is in the Bible.




Where do the scriptures say HOW Jesus was conceived? The Holy Ghost overshadowed Mary, everyone knows that. That's it. There's no info in the Bible or anywhere that expands on this.
I am talking about conception itself, not sexual activity. This takes place through fertilization. Whether it comes from sexual activity or artificial insemination, fertilization must take place for conception to happen.

VIRGIN BIRTH

LDS: Believe God is a resurrected, physical man. He is the literal Father of Jesus by the same manner in which men are conceived on earth.

Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 546-547:

ONLY BEGOTTEN SON

Christ is the Only Begotten ..., the Only Begotten Son ..., the Only Begotten of the Father. (Moses 5:9.) These name-***les all signify that our Lord is the only Son of the Father in the flesh. Each of the words is to be understood literally. Only means only; Begotten means begotten; and Son means son. Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers.

Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 742:

SON OF GOD

God the Father is a perfected, glorified, holy Man, an immortal Personage. And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, for he is the Son of God, and that designation means what it says. (You do try hard to even change the meaning of the LDS leadership. Either they were right or wrong. Mind you, I wouldn’t want to agree with them either.)

(See also The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, Bookcraft, 1988, p. 6-7; Family Home Evenings Manual, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1972, p. 125-126; Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Macmillan Pub., 1992, p. 725, 729, 739, 740, 1670, 1671; Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 115, vol. 11, p. 268; The Seer, p. 158.)



BIBLE: There is nothing in the Bible to indicate a physical relationship between God and Mary. Jesus’ conception is declared to be a miracle.

Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Luke 1:30-35 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary...thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS....Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee; therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.




Do you or do you not believe that a body of believers in Jesus Christ cons***utes the church of Jesus Christ? There have been believers since Adam's day as the Old Testament shows us. Jesus is the Messiah. The Jews ***embled and worshiped Jehovah the Messiah. Thus they made up the church of Jesus Christ in their day.
Your beliefs would not allow Adam and Eve to enter the kingdom of God. They didn't believe in the trinity, they believed in God.

I believe that THE body of believers, no matter what denomination, cons***utes the Church. You think that it is only LDS and no more.

I had stated, “I believe that Adam and Eve will be among the saved and many from the Old Testament will be in the Kingdom”, in my last post so that sort of shoots down your theory that my beliefs would not allow Adam and Eve to enter the kingdom of God. Where have I said that you have to believe the Trinity in order to gain salvation?




I don't believe the Bible according to who, you? Who made you the master of another's beliefs? Who said you get to decide what others believe and don't believe? I am LDS because the Holy Ghost has told me the church is true. My knowledge of the Bible is very extensive; I simply don't believe in Bible bashing, something you so desperately want me to do. Contention, something you try to cause, is of Satan. I do not aim to be contentious but to preach the gospel in Spirit and truth. Those who accept the gospel shall inherit the eternities for their reward and those who reject shall face the just judgments of God.

You don’t believe the bible because when the Bible says that there is only one God you say more. You don’t believe the Bible because when it says salvation is a gift, not of works, you say that there has to be works. You don’t believe the Bible.

You have been telling me what you believe, I don’t need to decide anything.

What is your definition of “Bible bashing”?

I have not caused contention, Joseph Smith did that years ago, all I do is point out the differences in LDS teaching from the Bible teachings. I do not agree with your LDS gospel because it differs from the Bible.

[dberrie2000]

Mormon priesthood is not if any Bible authority because the Aaronic priesthood is gone and the Melchizedek priesthood belongs only to Jesus. More of your Bible knowledge? You really don’t know what you are talking about.

How can an everlasting priesthood be gone?

Exodus 40:15---King James Version (KJV)
15 And thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office: for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations.

Could you explain to us what your evidence is this was not the Melchizedek priesthood?


Revelation 1:5-6---King James Version (KJV)
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

[Saxon]

How can an everlasting priesthood be gone?

An everlasting priesthood is gone, as it is now not in use. The priesthood is still available to the decedents of Arron and will be functioning when the third temple is built in Jerusalem. The only problem is that you don’t know who has the everlasting priesthood. I isn’t the LDS either.




Exodus 40:15---King James Version (KJV)
15 And thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office: for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations.

Could you explain to us what your evidence is this was not the Melchizedek priesthood?

Exodus 40:12 And thou shalt bring Aaron and his sons unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and wash them with water.
Exodus 40:13 And thou shalt put upon Aaron the holy garments, and anoint him, and sanctify him; that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.
Exodus 40:14 And thou shalt bring his sons, and clothe them with coats:
Exodus 40:15 And thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office: for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations.

Your own quote proves that it was the Aaronic Priesthood that was being mentioned. It was an everlasting priesthood to Arron and his decedents. Unless you are of the tribe of Levi you do not have a right to the priesthood.

There was no anointing of Melchizedek. There is only one Melchizedek priest and that is Jesus. See Hebrews where it states that it is an unchangeable priesthood, meaning it is not transferrable because Jesus never dies again and he is the holder of the Melchizedek priesthood.

Hebrews 7:20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
Hebrews 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)
Hebrews 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
Hebrews 7:23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
Hebrews 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.




Revelation 1:5-6---King James Version (KJV)
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

1 Peter 2:9 is saying all believers are a royal priesthood and Revelation 1:5 and 6 is written to and about the saved. The royal priesthood is the only priesthood that Christians hold.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light

[dberrie2000]

An everlasting priesthood is gone, as it is now not in use. The priesthood is still available to the decedents of Arron and will be functioning when the third temple is built in Jerusalem. The only problem is that you don’t know who has the everlasting priesthood. I isn’t the LDS either.

Exodus 40:12 And thou shalt bring Aaron and his sons unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and wash them with water.
Exodus 40:13 And thou shalt put upon Aaron the holy garments, and anoint him, and sanctify him; that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.
Exodus 40:14 And thou shalt bring his sons, and clothe them with coats:
Exodus 40:15 And thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office: for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations.

Your own quote proves that it was the Aaronic Priesthood that was being mentioned. It was an everlasting priesthood to Arron and his decedents. Unless you are of the tribe of Levi you do not have a right to the priesthood.

There was no anointing of Melchizedek. There is only one Melchizedek priest and that is Jesus. See Hebrews where it states that it is an unchangeable priesthood, meaning it is not transferrable because Jesus never dies again and he is the holder of the Melchizedek priesthood.

Hebrews 7:20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
Hebrews 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)
Hebrews 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
Hebrews 7:23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
Hebrews 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

1 Peter 2:9 is saying all believers are a royal priesthood and Revelation 1:5 and 6 is written to and about the saved. The royal priesthood is the only priesthood that Christians hold.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light

Welcome to the NT--where the Gentiles are made partakers of the covenant and the priesthood--and the seed of Abraham.

Just a note here, Saxon.

Peter was quoting the OT in 1 Peter 2:

Exodus 19:5-6---King James Version (KJV)
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Again--what is your evidence this is not a reference to the OT priesthood?

Revelation 1:5-6---King James Version (KJV)
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

[Saxon]

Leave it to you to get it backwards. Moses prophesied in Exodus 19:5-6 and it was fulfilled in the Church era. Note that Moses said “ye shall” and Peter said “ye are”. Moses was looking to a future event and Peter saw that event.

[dberrie2000]

Welcome to the NT--where the Gentiles are made partakers of the covenant and the priesthood--and the seed of Abraham.

Just a note here, Saxon.

Peter was quoting the OT in 1 Peter 2:

Exodus 19:5-6---King James Version (KJV)
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Again--what is your evidence this is not a reference to the OT priesthood?

Revelation 1:5-6---King James Version (KJV)
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.


Leave it to you to get it backwards. Moses prophesied in Exodus 19:5-6 and it was fulfilled in the Church era. Note that Moses said “ye shall” and Peter said “ye are”. Moses was looking to a future event and Peter saw that event.

Exodus19:5-6 was not Moses prophesying--it was the Lord speaking unto Moses:

Exodus 19:5-6---King James Version (KJV)
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Please do notice two things here:

1) That obedience to the covenant was the condition

2) That it was a promise to "ye"--those of the OT. Present tense.

What other priesthood, other than the Aaronic--or the Melchizedek--was present in the OT?

[Saxon]

Sorry, God was prophesying. it changes nothing.

You have to be in the covenant in order to keep it. Still changes nothing.

[dberrie2000]

----Just a note here, Saxon.

Peter was quoting the OT in 1 Peter 2:

Exodus 19:5-6---King James Version (KJV)
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Again--what is your evidence this is not a reference to the OT priesthood?

Revelation 1:5-6---King James Version (KJV)
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.


Leave it to you to get it backwards. Moses prophesied in Exodus 19:5-6 and it was fulfilled in the Church era. Note that Moses said “ye shall” and Peter said “ye are”. Moses was looking to a future event and Peter saw that event.


Exodus19:5-6 was not Moses prophesying--it was the Lord speaking unto Moses:

Exodus 19:5-6---King James Version (KJV)
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Please do notice two things here:

1) That obedience to the covenant was the condition

2) That it was a promise to "ye"--those of the OT. Present tense.

What other priesthood, other than the Aaronic--or the Melchizedek--was present in the OT?


Sorry, God was prophesying. it changes nothing.

You have to be in the covenant in order to keep it. Still changes nothing.

If Peter was quoting Exodus 19:5-6 in 1Peter2---then it had to be a reference to one of the two priesthoods found in the Biblical OT.

Again--what is your evidence this is not a reference to the Melchizedek priesthood?

Revelation 1:5-6---King James Version (KJV)
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

[Saxon]

If Peter was quoting Exodus 19:5-6 in 1Peter2---then it had to be a reference to one of the two priesthoods found in the Biblical OT.

Again--what is your evidence this is not a reference to the Melchizedek priesthood?

Why?? We know that the Aaronic priesthood was an everlasting priesthood that was to be p***ed down to Aaron and his sons so that is not it. That belongs to only those that are direct descendants of Aaron, no one else. Unless you are of the tribe of Levi you do not have a right to the Aaronic priesthood.

The Melchisedec Priesthood only has one priest and that is Jesus. Hebrews 7:3 to 25 tell us that there was only on priest of that order and Jesus is that priest. Verses 23 and 24 explains that there is no need of any more priests of the Melchisedec Priesthood because the current holder has a non-ending life and there is no reason to have any more.

Exodus 40:12 And thou shalt bring Aaron and his sons unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and wash them with water.
Exodus 40:13 And thou shalt put upon Aaron the holy garments, and anoint him, and sanctify him; that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.
Exodus 40:14 And thou shalt bring his sons, and clothe them with coats:
Exodus 40:15 And thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office: for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations.

Hebrews 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
Hebrews 7:4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
Hebrews 7:5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take ***hes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
Hebrews 7:6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received ***hes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
Hebrews 7:7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
Hebrews 7:8 And here men that die receive ***hes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
Hebrews 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth ***hes, payed ***hes in Abraham.
Hebrews 7:10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
Hebrews 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Hebrews 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
Hebrews 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Hebrews 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
Hebrews 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Hebrews 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Hebrews 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
Hebrews 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
Hebrews 7:20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
Hebrews 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)
Hebrews 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
Hebrews 7:23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
Hebrews 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

[dberrie2000]

If Peter was quoting Exodus 19:5-6 in 1Peter2---then it had to be a reference to one of the two priesthoods found in the Biblical OT.

Again--what is your evidence this is not a reference to the Melchizedek priesthood?

Revelation 1:5-6---King James Version (KJV)
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.



Why?? We know that the Aaronic priesthood was an everlasting priesthood that was to be p***ed down to Aaron and his sons so that is not it. That belongs to only those that are direct descendants of Aaron, no one else. Unless you are of the tribe of Levi you do not have a right to the Aaronic priesthood.

The Melchisedec Priesthood only has one priest and that is Jesus. Hebrews 7:3 to 25 tell us that there was only on priest of that order and Jesus is that priest. Verses 23 and 24 explains that there is no need of any more priests of the Melchisedec Priesthood because the current holder has a non-ending life and there is no reason to have any more.

Exodus 40:12 And thou shalt bring Aaron and his sons unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and wash them with water.
Exodus 40:13 And thou shalt put upon Aaron the holy garments, and anoint him, and sanctify him; that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.
Exodus 40:14 And thou shalt bring his sons, and clothe them with coats:
Exodus 40:15 And thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office: for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations.

Hebrews 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
Hebrews 7:4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
Hebrews 7:5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take ***hes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
Hebrews 7:6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received ***hes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
Hebrews 7:7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
Hebrews 7:8 And here men that die receive ***hes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
Hebrews 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth ***hes, payed ***hes in Abraham.
Hebrews 7:10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
Hebrews 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Hebrews 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
Hebrews 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Hebrews 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
Hebrews 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Hebrews 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Hebrews 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
Hebrews 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
Hebrews 7:20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
Hebrews 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)
Hebrews 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
Hebrews 7:23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
Hebrews 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Just a couple of points:

1) The Mechizedek priesthood did not come through the tribe of Levi.

2) The new covenant of the NT expanded the covenant to include all of mankind--Gentiles included. As the Exodus verse states--it was a kingdom of priests:

Exodus 19:5-6---King James Version (KJV)
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

That seems more expansive than just a single tribe. These are the very verses (Exodus19:5-6)Peter referred to in 1Peter2.

[Saxon]

Just a couple of points:

1) The Mechizedek priesthood did not come through the tribe of Levi.

I never said it did. That is why there were two priesthoods, the Aaronic for Aaron and his blood descendants and the other for the one priest of the order of Melchisedec. Mormons have no right to either priesthood because Jesus is the only priest of the order of Melchisedec and the Aaronic is for blood descendants of Aaron. There may be some descendants of Aaron caught up in the LDS but it would be only those few that would be qualified by birth, but there is no real function of the Aaronic priesthood in the LDS.




2) The new covenant of the NT expanded the covenant to include all of mankind--Gentiles included. As the Exodus verse states--it was a kingdom of priests:

Exodus 19:5-6---King James Version (KJV)
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

The New Testament priesthood of believers, as declared by Peter is the royal priesthood. There is none other priesthood mentioned for New Testament believers




That seems more expansive than just a single tribe. These are the very verses (Exodus19:5-6)Peter referred to in 1Peter2.

He is referring to the royal priesthood, the only New Testament priesthood named for Christian New Testament believers. Are you going to ignore what the text says?

[Saxon]

Are there still Levites in the world? Yes and it is available to them at any time. The ten commandments is a brief outline to the more than 3,000 commandments in the law of Moses. The Aaronic priesthood has nothing to do with the Melchisedec Priesthood, apples and oranges. See Hebrews 7:3 to 25. If you insist on arguing with a Bible believer you should get to know what it says even if you don't believe it. Read it without the LDS filter. It is much different that what you think it is.

[Saxon]

You failed to give a reference to that none-event. Book chapter and verse.

[dberrie2000]

I never said it did. That is why there were two priesthoods, the Aaronic for Aaron and his blood descendants and the other for the one priest of the order of Melchisedec. Mormons have no right to either priesthood because Jesus is the only priest of the order of Melchisedec and the Aaronic is for blood descendants of Aaron. There may be some descendants of Aaron caught up in the LDS but it would be only those few that would be qualified by birth, but there is no real function of the Aaronic priesthood in the LDS.

The New Testament priesthood of believers, as declared by Peter is the royal priesthood. There is none other priesthood mentioned for New Testament believers

He is referring to the royal priesthood, the only New Testament priesthood named for Christian New Testament believers. Are you going to ignore what the text says?

Again--what is your evidence this is not the Melchizedek priesthood?

Revelation 1:5-6---King James Version (KJV)
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

"Kings" and "priests" were descriptive terms that were attached to the Melchizedek priesthood. It was a royal priesthood--as "kings" suggests.

[Saxon]

The New Testament priesthood of believers, as declared by Peter is the royal priesthood. There is none other priesthood mentioned for New Testament believers.

There were two priesthoods, the Aaronic for Aaron and his blood descendants. Jesus is the only priest of the order of Melchisedec. You show me from the Bible that it "taint so".

[dberrie2000]

The New Testament priesthood of believers, as declared by Peter is the royal priesthood. There is none other priesthood mentioned for New Testament believers.

There were two priesthoods, the Aaronic for Aaron and his blood descendants. Jesus is the only priest of the order of Melchisedec. You show me from the Bible that it "taint so".

Whenever you show me this was not the Melchizedek priesthood:

Revelation 1:5-6---King James Version (KJV)
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

"Kings" and "priests" were descriptive terms that were attached to the Melchizedek priesthood. It was a royal priesthood--as "kings" suggests.

[Saxon]

I'm not arguing and I certainly am not speaking with someone who knows a good deal of what the Bible teaches.
You fail to remember that Paul ordained Timotheous and ***us to the Aaronic Priesthood

2nd Timothy 4 and ***us 3. Very end of both chapters there's a commentary by the writer of these two epistles.

Timothy’s father was Greek, so Timothy did not descend from Aaron. Only the sons of Aaron could be holders of the Aaronic priesthood. Paul was of the tribe of Benjamin and was not a descendant of Aaron so he could not ordain anyone to the Aaronic priesthood. Paul told Timothy to do the work of an evangelist, not a priest of the order of Aaron. (See 2 Timothy4:5)

***us was a Greek. (See Galatians 2:3) ***us did not descend from Aaron. Only the sons of Aaron could be holders of the Aaronic priesthood. Paul was of the tribe of Benjamin and was not a descendant of Aaron so he could not ordain anyone to the Aaronic priesthood.

There is nothing in 2 Timothy or ***us that even suggests that there is anything even hinting at the Aaronic priesthood. Like I said book, chapter and verse plus some reason for your statement.

2 Timothy4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

Galatians 2:3 But neither ***us, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:

[Saxon]

Whenever you show me this was not the Melchizedek priesthood:

Revelation 1:5-6---King James Version (KJV)
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

"Kings" and "priests" were descriptive terms that were attached to the Melchizedek priesthood. It was a royal priesthood--as "kings" suggests.

Read Hebrews 7, the whole chapter. Read it as it is written and don’t let your mind wonder off what the text says. You will find that there is only one priest that is of the order of Melchisedec. The king of Salem is the King of peace. Jesus before his becoming a man was the holder of the Melchisedec priesthood and after his resurrection he became again the only priest of the Melchisedec priesthood and it is unchangeable, not transferable because of a an endless life.

The Melchisedec priesthood is singular KING and singular PRIEST, only one. The royal priesthood is more than one as it is held by every Christian believer. We, as believers, the saved (See Revelation 1:5) are kings and priests. (See Revelation 1:6) Peter called the believers the royal priesthood.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon View PostThe New Testament priesthood of believers, as declared by Peter is the royal priesthood. There is none other priesthood mentioned for New Testament believers.

There were two priesthoods, the Aaronic for Aaron and his blood descendants. Jesus is the only priest of the order of Melchisedec. You show me from the Bible that it "taint so".

Whenever you show me this was not the Melchizedek priesthood:

Revelation 1:5-6---King James Version (KJV)
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

"Kings" and "priests" were descriptive terms that were attached to the Melchizedek priesthood. It was a royal priesthood--as "kings" suggests.

Anyone?

[Christian]

Hi Saxon:

One question:

Is that belief a faith without works--in your theology?

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

As the CONTEXT of that verse shows (You might READ the text that precedes and follows that sentence some day) that is in THE EYES OF MAN, NOT IN THE EYES OF GOD WHO KNOWS THE HEART. The only way 'a man' (according to the TEXT of that p***age) can know your faith is by how you behave (your works).

Perhaps you should take a 'Reading with understanding' course. . .

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Hi Saxon:

One question:

Is that belief a faith without works--in your theology?

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


As the CONTEXT of that verse shows (You might READ the text that precedes and follows that sentence some day) that is in THE EYES OF MAN, NOT IN THE EYES OF GOD WHO KNOWS THE HEART.

The context is faith--and what the components of faith are.

IOW--faith without works is dead faith.

That defies faith alone theology--so I understand your interest in defraying what the scriptures indicate.

In accordance with that verse of scripture(James2:26)--it has the faith alone theology preaching salvation through a dead faith.(IE--a salvation through a faith without works)

How does that compare to Christ's testimony?

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

[alanmolstad]

and what are the "works" of God...?

The answer is that "thee" work (the only one) is to believe in the Son that the father has sent.

Nothing else counts...Nothing else matters...Only that one single "work" of putting your "FAITH" in the Son!




Can I get an Amen?

[alanmolstad]

Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"

Jesus told them, "This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent."





http://biblehub.com/john/6-29.htm

[dberrie2000]

Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"

Jesus told them, "This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent."

Was this the exchange?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Alan--when you find the term "faith" in the Bible--is that a reference to a faith with works--or a faith without works?

[alanmolstad]

In the conversation the guy says he has kept all the law, and Jesus does not disagree with him...so the guy kept all the laws....and yet was lacking.

Thats the ending of the story, thats the lesson we learn....the guy walks away sad, with all his mighty works being rejected.
The very thing (works) that he thought would show everyone that he was for sure saved turned out to be pointless.


thats the lesson here....that works, (all the works), are a moot point if you have not the one work that God requires...FAITH in his son.

[alanmolstad]

so in other words...

We Christians should not do works to get saved, rather we should do works because we have BEEN saved!

Works come forth out of our faith.
For this is the Justification by works, for works are seen by men and therefore our works show men our hearts.

But before God we are justified by only Faith alone...apart from any works.

[teenapenny]

so in other words...

We Christians should not do works to get saved, rather we should do works because we have BEEN saved!

Works come forth out of our faith.
For this is the Justification by works, for works are seen by men and therefore our works show men our hearts.

But before God we are justified by only Faith alone...apart from any works.
That sounds good.

[alanmolstad]

That sounds good.
I agree totally!

[Phoenix]

According to Jesus, what 2 additional things (in addition to obeying the 7 or so commandments that he had been keeping) did the man need to do in order to get eternal life?

[alanmolstad]

That sounds good.
Hi, I like to check the guest registry and I do see you visit this site a lot during the week,

I always wanted to ask you if there is a story behind your screen name?

[dberrie2000]

Was this the exchange?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Alan--when you find the term "faith" in the Bible--is that a reference to a faith with works--or a faith without works?


In the conversation the guy says he has kept all the law, and Jesus does not disagree with him...so the guy kept all the laws....and yet was lacking.

But Jesus' testimony was not lacking anything:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


Thats the ending of the story, thats the lesson we learn....the guy walks away sad, with all his mighty works being rejected.

Please do relate to us what works were rejected. I find the only thing that was rejected was Jesus' direction to sell all he had--and come and follow the Savior.

So--where do you find obedience to the commandments being rejected?

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


that works, (all the works), are a moot point if you have not the one work that God requires...FAITH in his son.

When you state "faith"--is that a reference to a faith with works--or a faith without works?

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[dberrie2000]

But before God we are justified by only Faith alone...apart from any works.

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[alanmolstad]

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

yes, there is a justification by faith, and a justification by works.

So there in not just the one talked about in the bible,but both are....that is true.

It works out in real life as this:
The justification by works is the way people cant read your mind but they can see in the things that you do and say what you are like inside.
Your works then speak as to the condition of your heart.

If you have no good things in your life , chances are you dont have much of a faith life as well, for the works are to come forth out of your faith.


On the other hand:
There is also the Justification by faith.
This is the way we are seen by God, for only God sees into the inner man's heart.

So God sees my heart and he knows my faith in him and that is why I know Im saved....not by my works, but by grace though my faith in Him and him alone!




So this is why we say that before men we are justified by works
and before God we are justified by FAITH!...



can i get an "Amen"?

[Christian]

Okay, so believing in Jesus Christ is not enough to be saved. Then list for us the additional requirements.

Why do you say that? GOD does not say that. I don't say that. We CHRISTIANS don't say that.

GOD SAYS WE ARE SAVED BY FAITH, NOT JUNK WE DO:

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

You may wave a purple lantern to the east 56 times and chant 'oonga oonga oonga' 72 times and that STILL will not give you the ONLY requirement for salvation.

FAITH IS NOT SOMETHING YOU "DO" STUFF TO GET.

Faith comes by hearing the Word of God:

Rom 10:17
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
NKJV

If you have faith, IT CAME FROM GOD THROUGH HIS WORD. THE BIBLE.

If you do NOT have faith in Jesus Christ, it is because God has NOT given it to you.

If your faith is in a FALSE christ and/or a FALSE father god who supposedly also fathered satan, you are doomed to hell.

Sorry Erundur, but you seem to be out of luck here. . .

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post But before God we are justified by only Faith alone...apart from any works.


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


yes, there is a justification by faith, and a justification by works.

The point being-- not by faith alone.

[dberrie2000]

Why do you say that? GOD does not say that. I don't say that. We CHRISTIANS don't say that.

GOD SAYS [COLOR="#FF0000"]WE ARE SAVED BY FAITH,

In the LDS church--one is saved by God's grace.

[Christian]

In the LDS church--one is saved by God's grace.

PLUS a bunch of junk like keeping ordinances, and DOING other junk.

GOD says:

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV


Sorry berry, but YOU don't do it. . .ONLY GOD CAN DO IT FOR YOU.

[Christian]

In the LDS church--one is saved by God's grace.

PLUS a bunch of junk like keeping ordinances, and DOING other junk.

GOD says:

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV


Sorry berry, but YOU don't do it. . .ONLY GOD CAN DO IT FOR YOU. And HE does it by giving us FAITH in Jesus Christ.

[Erundur]

Why do you say that?
Because that's what I thought you were saying. Are you telling me now that believing in Jesus Christ is enough to be saved?


GOD SAYS WE ARE SAVED BY FAITH, NOT JUNK WE DO:
ACTUALLY, GOD SAYS WE ARE SAVED BY GRACE, NOT JUNK WE BELIEVE:

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

[alanmolstad]

Because that's what I thought you were saying. Are you telling me now that believing in Jesus Christ is enough to be saved?


[.
"They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household."

[Erundur]

"They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household."
Mormons believe in the Lord Jesus, so are we saved?

[alanmolstad]

Mormons believe in the Lord Jesus, so are we saved?

Not if you put your faith in the invented " Jesus* " that Smith pushed.



But....








But if you have just a little-tiny, itsy-bitsy , almost insignificant amount of doubt as to the whole concocted story that Joe Smith pushed?...then you are saved.

(Truthfully Erunder, I actually think that only the most strident believers in Smith's claims are actually the ones who are dead in their sins and totally lost.)


* see- Matthew 24:24

[Erundur]

Not if you put your faith in the invented " Jesus* " that Smith pushed.
Our faith is in Jesus Christ, not in any invented "Jesus*". So are we saved?


But if you have just a little-tiny, itsy-bitsy , almost insignificant amount of doubt as to the whole concocted story that Joe Smith pushed?...then you are saved.
Wait, so now salvation is by doubt? Where does the Bible say that?

[alanmolstad]

Our faith is in Jesus Christ, not in any invented "Jesus*". So are we saved?


Wait, so now salvation is by doubt? Where does the Bible say that?
My point is this...
Joe Smith was a conman who invented a false idea of the Christ..and as we know you are dead in your sins if you put your faith in a false Christ.

However I also point out as did Walter Martin that a lot of Mormons don't really believe in Smith's story and his teachings ...Thus for such people I remain hopefully that in their hearts they have secretly come to know my Lord that I and Walter preach.

[Erundur]

My point is this...
But your point doesn't answer my questions. Since Mormons have faith in Jesus Christ, are we saved? Or is salvation by doubt instead?

[dberrie2000]

PLUS a bunch of junk like keeping ordinances,

Such as this?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ [COLOR="#FF0000"]for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[alanmolstad]

But your point doesn't answer my questions. yes it does...

[Erundur]

yes it does...
Oh well, Alan doesn't have an answer. Anyone else want to give it a shot?

[alanmolstad]

Joe lied...slept with other men's wives...people found out and Joe died.

Along the way Joe lied about christ and if you put your faith in Joe's version of Christ you are lost....Case closed

[alanmolstad]

So all the faith in the world in Joe's christ is a moot point
You are still lost.

[dberrie2000]

So all the faith in the world in Joe's christ is a moot point You are still lost.

It seems to me that there are always those who, when unable to defend their own theology--launch into the attack and judge mode.

Please do relate to us what you find in the Biblical text--that is not found in the LDS church?

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[Christian]

It seems to me that there are always those who, when unable to defend their own theology--launch into the attack and judge mode.

Please do relate to us what you find in the Biblical text--that is not found in the LDS church?

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Still showing your ignorance of that text, I see. You have been shown that it comes from the eyes of MAN AND NOT FROM THE EYES OF GOD WHO KNOWS OUR HEARTS, yet you keep trying to 'shlock it in' to your every post as though it is all you think you know. You have chosen to remain ignorant.

NOT found n the lds religious cult?
Rom 4:5-8
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin."
NKJV

Of course you have been shown this too, several times before, but like the lds religious cult, you pretend it is not there and have no explanation for your ignorance.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Pos*** seems to me that there are always those who, when unable to defend their own theology--launch into the attack and judge mode.

Please do relate to us what you find in the Biblical text--that is not found in the LDS church?

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


Still showing your ignorance of that text, I see.

Why is posting scriptures that defy faith alone theology considered ignorance?


You have been shown that it comes from the eyes of MAN AND NOT FROM THE EYES OF GOD WHO KNOWS OUR HEARTS, yet you keep trying to 'shlock it in' to your every post as though it is all you think you know.

And the scripture shows it comes from the Biblical text:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[Christian]

Why is posting scriptures that defy faith alone theology considered ignorance?



And the scripture shows it comes from the Biblical text:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

SURE it does, but NOT IN THE CONTEXT you pretend it comes in when you study the WHOLE p***age.

Just because you own a car does not mean

'Just by turning the key you can get in" means you can get into your car.

Not when the CONTEXT of your conversation is how to get into your house.

Someone once said: TEXT WITHOUT CONTEXT IS PRETEXT. And that is ALL YOU HAVE. Your intentional ignorance of that p***age is underwhelming.

But then TWO can play your little game.

Isa 44:6
"Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
'I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.
NKV

So joey smith's MULTIPLE GODS in pgp ABRAHAM 3 and 4 are FALSE GODS that he invented himself. Yep.

The Bible even goes further:

Isa 44:8
Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one.'"
NKJV

THE GOD OF THE BIBLE DOESN'T EVEN KNOW ANY OF SMITH's 'gods.'

It's in the text.
You can't change it.
It makes smith's text a liar.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostWhy is posting scriptures that defy faith alone theology considered ignorance?

And the scripture shows it comes from the Biblical text:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


[COLOR=#0000ff]SURE it does, but NOT IN THE CONTEXT you pretend it comes in when you study the WHOLE p***age.

The "out of context" seems to be the standard pounding block whenever scriptures are posted that defy faith alone theology. Taint so!! arguments are neither convincing nor compelling, IMO.


Just because you own a car does not mean 'Just by turning the key you can get in" means you can get into your car.

It means that unless you turn the key--the car won't take you anywhere.

John 14:21-24--King James Version (KJV)
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostWhy is posting scriptures that defy faith alone theology considered ignorance?

And the scripture shows it comes from the Biblical text:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


[COLOR=#0000ff]SURE it does, but NOT IN THE CONTEXT you pretend it comes in when you study the WHOLE p***age.

The "out of context" seems to be the standard pounding block whenever scriptures are posted that defy faith alone theology. Taint so!! arguments are neither convincing nor compelling, IMO.


Just because you own a car does not mean 'Just by turning the key you can get in" means you can get into your car.

It means that unless you turn the key--the car won't take you anywhere.

John 14:21-24--King James Version (KJV)
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

[Christian]

berry posted:



SURE it does, but NOT IN THE CONTEXT you pretend it comes in when you study the WHOLE p***age.

The "out of context" seems to be the standard pounding block whenever scriptures are posted that defy faith alone theology. Taint so!! arguments are neither convincing nor compelling, IMO.

When you RIP a sentence out of the context in which the writer wrote it, you are being dishonest. And when you 'pound on it' over and over, you get corrected over and over. Your constant whine about James 2:24 shows your own ignorance about what the text REALLY addresses and WHO it is speaking to and by.

John 14:21-24--King James Version (KJV)
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.[/QUOTE]

Let's see now. . .WHO is Jesus speaking to, and WHAT is the status of that person? OH YES, Jesus is speaking to a JEW under the OLD LAW BEFORE ANYONE IS REMOVED FROM UNDER IT. He is NOT speaking to a CHRISTIAN.

But of course, none of that matters to someone who is trying to force the p***age into his own private little mouldy mold, now does it? You try very hard to do that.

We CHRISTIANS are not under the 613 OT commandments any more. . .Judas was.

Sorry berrie, but your boat simply doesn't float.

God also told us:

Rom 4:5-8
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin."
NKJV

Do you REALLY BELIEVE your god contradicts himself by saying in one place Faith is accounted to Christians APART FROM WORKS, but in another that works are REQUIRED for salvation?

Sorry berrie, but the REAL GOD doesn't contradict Himself like that.

FAITH saves
WORKS follow faith
WORKS are seen by our fellow men
FAITH is seen by God.

And YOU are following the wrong gods.

[dberrie2000]

The "out of context" seems to be the standard pounding block whenever scriptures are posted that defy faith alone theology. Taint so!! arguments are neither convincing nor compelling, IMO.

It means that unless you turn the key--the car won't take you anywhere.

John 14:21-24--King James Version (KJV)
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.


[COLOR=#0000ff]When you RIP a sentence out of the context in which the writer wrote it, you are being dishonest. And when you 'pound on it' over and over, you get corrected over and over. Your constant whine about James 2:24 shows your own ignorance about what the text REALLY addresses and WHO it is speaking to and by.

I don't find anything in that retort that is anything short of another--- taint so!!!


John 14:21-24--King James Version (KJV)
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

[COLOR=#0000ff]Let's see now. . .WHO is Jesus speaking to, and WHAT is the status of that person? OH YES, Jesus is speaking to a JEW under the OLD LAW BEFORE ANYONE IS REMOVED FROM UNDER IT. He is NOT speaking to a CHRISTIAN.[/quote]

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

So--is that limited to Jews only?

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.


FAITH saves

In the LDS church--it's God's grace that saves.

[dberrie2000]

The "out of context" seems to be the standard pounding block whenever scriptures are posted that defy faith alone theology. Taint so!! arguments are neither convincing nor compelling, IMO.

It means that unless you turn the key--the car won't take you anywhere.

John 14:21-24--King James Version (KJV)
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.


[COLOR=#0000ff]When you RIP a sentence out of the context in which the writer wrote it, you are being dishonest. And when you 'pound on it' over and over, you get corrected over and over. Your constant whine about James 2:24 shows your own ignorance about what the text REALLY addresses and WHO it is speaking to and by.

I don't find anything in that retort that is anything short of another--- taint so!!!


John 14:21-24--King James Version (KJV)
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

[COLOR=#0000ff]Let's see now. . .WHO is Jesus speaking to, and WHAT is the status of that person? OH YES, Jesus is speaking to a JEW under the OLD LAW BEFORE ANYONE IS REMOVED FROM UNDER IT. He is NOT speaking to a CHRISTIAN.

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

So--is that limited to Jews only?

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.


FAITH saves

In the LDS church--it's God's grace that saves.

[Berean]

But your point doesn't answer my questions. Since Mormons have faith in Jesus Christ, are we saved? Or is salvation by doubt instead?

The problem is that the Mormon Jesus is not the same Jesus that Christians worship. Therefore the Jesus you worship is an idol, so consequently.

The Restoration of Major Doctrines through Joseph Smith: The Godhead, Mankind, and the Creation - Ensign Jan. 1989 - ensign (https://www.lds.org/ensign/1989/01/the-restoration-of-major-doctrines-through-joseph-smith-the-godhead-mankind-and-the-creation?lang=eng)

You speak of being saved by grace, but the Mormon definition of grace is the exact opposite of Christian (Biblical) grace, and as far as I cat see, Mormon grace does absolutely nothing for you. Mormon grace means you have to work until you overcome your sins, and then grace is sufficient and is applied. Christian grace, on the other hand, means you are to rely on Christ's Work on the Cross rather than you own works to overcome sin.

But in reality, Mormon "grace" really does nothing for you that I can see. You have to do everything yourself, overcoming sin in your life completely, and "then" is grace sufficient. But what exactly is Mormon grace and what does it do for you? That I can't figure out.

WHAT IS GRACE?
(In the quad) Bible Dictionary P 697
This Grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts. Divine Grace is needed by every soul in consequence of the fall of Adam and also because of man's weaknesses and shortcomings. However, Grace cannot suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient. Hence, the explanation, "it is by grace we are saved, after all we can do." (2 Ne 25:23) It is truly the Grace of Jesus Christ that makes salvation possible.

But how? Just exactly how, does the "grace of Jesus Christ" make salvation possible? I don't see where this "grace" is doing anything at all. It probably makes Mormons feel good to hear this, but a dopamine rush won't secure your salvation. Just what exactly does this "grace" do for you?

[Berean]

The "out of context" seems to be the standard pounding block whenever scriptures are posted that defy faith alone theology. Taint so!! arguments are neither convincing nor compelling, IMO.



It means that unless you turn the key--the car won't take you anywhere.

John 14:21-24--King James Version (KJV)
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Nonsense.

'Tis so.

In context, the Scriptures you post don't defy faith alone theology.

And you know that, otherwise you would also post the Scriptures that we post, such as Eph 2:8-10 and Romans and Galatians which clearly state that salvation is by grace through faith alone and NOT of works. I have never seen you acknowledge that those verses even exist, even though we CONSTANTLY refer you to them and ask you why you don't consider them. You ignore them like this because they clearly prove that your false narrative is wrong.

Even your own "scriptures" (and I use that term loosely) for example, D&C sections 76 and 132, and Moroni 7, clearly demonstrate that faith alone is the only means of salvation. When you post only the verses that say what you want them to say, out of the context, of course they point to disharmony and confusion instead of unity. I can cause the Bible to say anything I want it to that way, as you are clearly doing, but to do so is dishonest.

But that's the whole point of posting them out of context, isn't it? To dishonestly mock and confuse ignorant Christians with a Gospel of confusion when in fact, in context there is unity throughout the Bible? Why would someone knowingly attempt to confound God's Word like this unless their intentions are purely evil?

[Erundur]

The problem is that the Mormon Jesus is not the same Jesus that Christians worship. Therefore the Jesus you worship is an idol, so consequently.

The Restoration of Major Doctrines through Joseph Smith: The Godhead, Mankind, and the Creation - Ensign Jan. 1989 - ensign (https://www.lds.org/ensign/1989/01/the-restoration-of-major-doctrines-through-joseph-smith-the-godhead-mankind-and-the-creation?lang=eng)

You speak of being saved by grace, but the Mormon definition of grace is the exact opposite of Christian (Biblical) grace, and as far as I cat see, Mormon grace does absolutely nothing for you. Mormon grace means you have to work until you overcome your sins, and then grace is sufficient and is applied. Christian grace, on the other hand, means you are to rely on Christ's Work on the Cross rather than you own works to overcome sin.

But in reality, Mormon "grace" really does nothing for you that I can see. You have to do everything yourself, overcoming sin in your life completely, and "then" is grace sufficient. But what exactly is Mormon grace and what does it do for you? That I can't figure out.

WHAT IS GRACE?
(In the quad) Bible Dictionary P 697
This Grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts. Divine Grace is needed by every soul in consequence of the fall of Adam and also because of man's weaknesses and shortcomings. However, Grace cannot suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient. Hence, the explanation, "it is by grace we are saved, after all we can do." (2 Ne 25:23) It is truly the Grace of Jesus Christ that makes salvation possible.

But how? Just exactly how, does the "grace of Jesus Christ" make salvation possible? I don't see where this "grace" is doing anything at all. It probably makes Mormons feel good to hear this, but a dopamine rush won't secure your salvation. Just what exactly does this "grace" do for you?

Nonsense .

[Berean]

Nonsense .

Still can't think of anything original I see.

Or mount a rational, intelligent, adult argument beyond... nuh uh!

[Berean]

Nonsense .


Is this you?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=XaKGdFEpbqw

[dberrie2000]

In context, the Scriptures you post don't defy faith alone theology.

Then perhaps you could collate the scriptures with faith alone theology for us?

James 2:24--New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[alanmolstad]

Hi Saxon:

One question:

Is that belief a faith without works--in your theology?

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

we are saved by grace though faith and not "by" works....


Not "BY" works......

Thus faith can be always with works and that is not the issue...the only teaching of the Bible is that works do not save nor add to salvation.


So to sum up once again- We are saved by grace though faith and not "by" wiorks, but we should also remember that our faith is never "without" works...

[alanmolstad]

Joe Smith lied...

Joe Smith slept with other men's wives...

When people found out they went after him as is expected for Joe was a very evil man...and Joe died.

Along the way Joe lied about christ and if you put your faith in Joe's version of Christ you are lost....Case closed

[alanmolstad]

Joe Smith lied...

Joe Smith slept with other men's wives...



So do you think the Mormon founder Joe Smith ever got a 3-way going with two girls at once?...
From the several descriptions I have read it seems that at one occasion he did seem to drop a hint that he was open to being into that.

The story is that he had just "finished" with this one young girl, and she got up and out of the bed when Joe Smith asked if she could go as her sister to join him?

I believe this was a kinda sleazy attempt to get two sisters to have sex with him at the same time...