Which Christianity? [Archive] - Walter Martin Ministries Forum

dberrie2000

04-23-2015, 04:31 AM

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

How are you using that scripture to cover and cancel out what the Savior testified to, that is--all of mankind will be judged according to works--and that for life or ****ation--after death?

John 5:28-29--King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

No one is arguing that we are saved by grace--only that grace is extended to those who obey Christ:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

And walk in His light:

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Could you quote us a scripture where God extends His grace of eternal life to those who disobey Him?

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9--King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Romans 2:5-11--King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

1 Peter 4:17--King James Version (KJV)
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Saxon

04-24-2015, 08:30 PM

You continually ignore Ephesians 2:8 to 10 that clearly states that salvation is a gift of God and not of works so you can insert scripture that is dealing with something altogether different and claim that it promotes a salvation that is earned by works. It is about time that you explained why you insist on ignoring Ephesians 2:8 to 10. I believe that you don't believe it is true.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Christian

04-25-2015, 08:02 AM

Jesus built only ONE CHURCH. Joey smith and his INVENTED RELIGION was never a part of it. Joey hadn't even INVENTED his religion yet.

dberrie2000

04-27-2015, 04:27 AM

You continually ignore Ephesians 2:8 to 10 that clearly states that salvation is a gift of God and not of works

Not of faith either--but by God's grace. How does that somehow cancel and cover the fact faith is necessary for salvation--ad not dead faith:

James 2:20--King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

One could make the point that the wire conduit that connects to the light is not what illuminates it--but that does not mean the illumination will take place without the conduit.

As the scriptures teach--grace p***es through faith for salvation--just as electricity p***es through the conduit for illumination:

Ephesians 2:8 --For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

As the scriptures also teach--all are judged in accordance with what one does with the gifts--and that for the joy of thy lord--or outer darkness:

Matthew 25:14-30----King James Version (KJV)
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Some points here:

1) It was His servants the Lord gave the gifts to--not the other way around.

2) All were judged according to what they did with the gifts.

3) The ones who magnified their gifts received the joy of thy lord--the ones who did not--outer darkness.

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Saxon

05-01-2015, 03:55 PM

Faith does not save anyone! it Is a Gift not of works. You continually ignore Ephesians 2:8 to 10 that clearly states that salvation is a gift of God and not of works. All the verses that you quote mean nothing about works for earning salvation. You need to explain Ephesians 2:8 to 10 befor you can bounce in the contradictory verses. You won't because you can't.

dberrie2000

05-02-2015, 05:46 AM

Not of faith either--but by God's grace. How does that somehow cancel and cover the fact faith is necessary for salvation--and not dead faith:

James 2:20--King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

One could make the point that the wire conduit that connects to the light is not what illuminates it--but that does not mean the illumination will take place without the conduit.

As the scriptures teach--grace p***es through faith for salvation--just as electricity p***es through the conduit for illumination:

Ephesians 2:8 --For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

As the scriptures also teach--all are judged in accordance with what one does with the gifts--and that for the joy of thy lord--or outer darkness:

Matthew 25:14-30----King James Version (KJV)
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Some points here:

1) It was His servants the Lord gave the gifts to--not the other way around.

2) All were judged according to what they did with the gifts.

3) The ones who magnified their gifts received the joy of thy lord--the ones who did not--outer darkness.

Faith does not save anyone! it Is a Gift not of works. You continually ignore Ephesians 2:8 to 10 that clearly states that salvation is a gift of God and not of works.

I believe the Biblical text accepts all forms of God's grace as gifts to mankind. That is not being argued--only who this grace goes to. If the scriptures are correct--this gift of eternal life--as a personal reception--goes to them that obey God:

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

The faith alone have to deny any scripture that has God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him. The LDS accept it as truth.

All the verses that you quote mean nothing about works for earning salvation.

So--you believe all those verses are about one earning grace, IE--

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Did those of Acts2:38 earn the remission of sins--or does God extend His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

You need to explain Ephesians 2:8 to 10 befor you can bounce in the contradictory verses. You won't because you can't.

So--you believe the verses I quote are contradictory to Ephesians 2:8?

I have stated a number of times--the faith alone have a cancel and cover theology--anythime scriptures are quoted that defy their theology--they run to another verse they believe cancels and covers that verse.

Not only do you not make your point in doing so--you render the Bible a very unreliable source of truth. Saxon--one has to harmonize the Bible in order to claim it as a truth.

The LDS believe there is no contradiction in Ephesians 2 and the rest of the Bible. One is not saved by faith or works--but that does not mean neither is necessary for salvation. The Bible is plain--the disobedient do not receive of God's gift of eternal life:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

IOW--it's not by works or faith--but what does save--God's grace--which goes only to those who obey God.

The faith alone have no way of collating Ephesians2 with the verses that confirm obedience is necessary for salvation to occur--other than denial.

Saxon

05-02-2015, 07:46 AM

I believe the Biblical text accepts all forms of God's grace as gifts to mankind. That is not being argued--only who this grace goes to. If the scriptures are correct--this gift of eternal life--as a personal reception--goes to them that obey God:

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

The faith alone have to deny any scripture that has God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him. The LDS accept it as truth.

I believe that Ephesians 2:8 to 10 is commenting on salvation. There is no hint in the text that there is any other intent. Only salvation is being discussed here. You can bring in all the contradictions you wish but at the end of the day you are still stuck with salvation is a gift from God given by grace because we as humans cannot and will not ever be able to earn salvation and gifts are not earned either. Ephesians 2:9 still says “not of works”. What part of not of works do you not understand???

Ephesians 2:10 still instructs that works come after we are created in Christ Jesus. Works do not save but are the results of salvation.

Matthew 7:19-21 is speaking of those that are already created in Christ Jesus and they are the saved on earth that haven’t died a physical death. Don’t waste your time putting out verses that are seemingly contrary to Ephesians 2:8 to 10 until you can explain why you believe Ephesians 2:8 to 10 is not true.

You keep on saying faith alone. Faith alone for what??

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

So--you believe all those verses are about one earning grace, IE--

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Did those of Acts2:38 earn the remission of sins--or does God extend His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Seeing that I don’t believe that you can earn grace the answer is obviously, NO. You are the one that believes that they are about earning grace. Isn’t that what we are discussing?

So--you believe the verses I quote are contradictory to Ephesians 2:8?

I have stated a number of times--the faith alone have a cancel and cover theology--anythime scriptures are quoted that defy their theology--they run to another verse they believe cancels and covers that verse.

Not only do you not make your point in doing so--you render the Bible a very unreliable source of truth. Saxon--one has to harmonize the Bible in order to claim it as a truth.

If you care to check your Articles of Faith number 8 you are the ones that have attempted to render the Bible a very unreliable source of truth. If you were honest with yourself you know that LDS put all their extra biblical books above the Bible and only resort to it when arguing with Bible believers. It is too obvious by the way you abuse the Bible text that you really do not know what the Bible is about and couldn’t explain it if your life depended on it and it does.

The LDS believe there is no contradiction in Ephesians 2 and the rest of the Bible. One is not save by faith or works--but that does not mean neither is necessary for salvation. The Bible is plain--the disobedient do not receive of God's gift of eternal life:

I don’t believe that there is any contradiction in Ephesians 2 and the rest of the Bible, the problem is that the LDS doesn’t believe the Bible or have any faith in it for what it says. If you don’t see the contradiction between Ephesians 2:8 to 10 and LDS doctrine of salvation then you are truly blind or cannot read and comprehend the Bible.

You are wrong. It is the disobedient that receive the gift of eternal life because they are the ones that need it and those are the people that Jesus came to die for; the lost. You are truly ignorant of what the Bible teaches.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

IOW--it's not by works or faith--but what does save--God's grace--goes only to those who obey God.

The faith alone have no way of collating Ephesians2 with the verses that confirm obedience is necessary for salvation to occur--other than denial.

Obedience does not cause salvation to occur. Salvation is a Gift from God. Gifts are no earned by obedience or any other act of goodness. If it could be earned it would no longer be a gift.

dberrie2000

05-06-2015, 04:33 AM

I believe the Biblical text accepts all forms of God's grace as gifts to mankind. That is not being argued--only who this grace goes to. If the scriptures are correct--this gift of eternal life--as a personal reception--goes to them that obey God:

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

The faith alone have to deny any scripture that has God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him. The LDS accept it as truth.

So--you believe all those verses are about one earning grace, IE--

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Did those of Acts2:38 earn the remission of sins--or does God extend His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

[/B]Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

So--you believe the verses I quote are contradictory to Ephesians 2:8?

I have stated a number of times--the faith alone have a cancel and cover theology--anythime scriptures are quoted that defy their theology--they run to another verse they believe cancels and covers that verse.

Not only do you not make your point in doing so--you render the Bible a very unreliable source of truth. Saxon--one has to harmonize the Bible in order to claim it as a truth.

The LDS believe there is no contradiction in Ephesians 2 and the rest of the Bible. One is not save by faith or works--but that does not mean neither is necessary for salvation. The Bible is plain--the disobedient do not receive of God's gift of eternal life:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

IOW--it's not by works or faith--but what does save--God's grace--goes only to those who obey God.

The faith alone have no way of collating Ephesians2 with the verses that confirm obedience is necessary for salvation to occur--other than denial.

I believe that Ephesians 2:8 to 10 is commenting on salvation.

And??? What do you believe is contradictory between Ephesians2--and Hebrews5:9?

You can bring in all the contradictions you wish but at the end of the day you are still stuck with salvation is a gift from God given by grace because we as humans cannot and will not ever be able to earn salvation and gifts are not earned either.

Again--there has been no argument that salvation is a gift of God--I agree with that. The scriptures state this gift goes to them that obey Him:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of [B]eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

That defies faith alone theology.

Again--did those who were promised the remission of sins--which repented and were water baptized--earn the forgiveness of sins?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

If not--then the scriptures testify God extends His salvational grace to them that obey Him. How are you claiming that contradicts Ephesians 2:8? It's not of works--as the scriptures state--but by Grace.

And that grace goes to them that obey God.

Ephesians 2:9 still says “not of works”. What part of not of works do you not understand???

Again--do you believe those receiving the remission of sins who repented and were baptized--were saved by grace or works?

The Biblical text shows they were saved by God's grace--whuich went to those who obeyed God--and repented and were water baptized.

Were these of 1John saved by the Blood of Christ--or by walking in the light?

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The scriptures state they were saved by through the Blood of Christ--which those who walked in the light received.

Ephesians 2:10 still instructs that works come after we are created in Christ Jesus. Works do not save but are the results of salvation.

The scriptures show that salvation came to those who obeyed Christ:

Galatians 3:26-29---King James Version (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

That connects salvation, faith, and baptism together--as integral components.

You keep on saying faith alone. Faith alone for what??

Salvation--according to those of the faith alone theology.

dberrie2000

05-06-2015, 04:45 AM

So--you believe all those verses are about one earning grace, IE--

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Did those of Acts2:38 earn the remission of sins--or does God extend His salvational grace to them that obey Him?

[/B]Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of [B]eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Seeing that I don’t believe that you can earn grace the answer is obviously, NO.

Then why, whenever I post scriptures that have God extending His grace to those who obey Him--do you come back with the statement we can't earn grace?

You are the one that believes that they are about earning grace.

Cite, please. Where have I ever claimed God extending His salvational grace to them who obey Him as "earning grace"? I don't believe God giving His grace to them who obey Him is earning grace--that is why it is called grace.

But I do believe those who obey God--and walk in His light--are promised the salvational grace of His Blood:

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The faith alone have to deny those scriptures--and usually engage a cancel and cover tactic by quoting other scriptures, in an attempt to cancel those truths out--and labeling those who quote such scriptures as those who believe we can earn God's grace.

Again--what is it about God extending His salvational grace to them that obey Him--as "earning grace"?

Saxon

05-06-2015, 10:04 PM

Then why, whenever I post scriptures that have God extending His grace to those who obey Him--do you come back with the statement we can't earn grace?

The reason that I say what I say is because you are putting that statement into a context of you have to obey or you won’t get saved. That is not the Biblical context.

You LDS version of salvation is not the same as the Bible version of salvation.

LDS VERSION
LDS: Believe Christ’s death brought release from grave and universal resurrection. Salvation by grace is universal resurrection. Beyond this, man must earn his place in heaven. Saved by grace after all we can do.

Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 25:23

For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 669-671:

SALVATION

1. Unconditional or general salvation, that which comes by grace alone without obedience to gospel law, consists in the mere fact of being resurrected. In this sense salvation is synonymous with immortality; it is the inseparable connection of body and spirit so that the resurrected personage lives forever.

This kind of salvation eventually will come to all mankind, excepting only the sons of perdition. ...Thus it is that the Lord "saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him." (D. & C. 76:40-48.) All others are saved from death, hell, the devil, and endless torment. (2 Ne. 9:18-27.)

But this is not the salvation of righteousness, the salvation which the saints seek. Those who gain only this general or unconditional salvation will still be judged according to their works and receive their places in a terrestrial or a telestial kingdom. They will, therefore, be ****ed; their eternal progression will be cut short; they will not fill the full measure of their creation, but in eternity will be ministering servants to more worthy persons.

2. Conditional or individual salvation, that which comes by grace coupled with gospel obedience, consists in receiving an inheritance in the celestial kingdom of God. This kind of salvation follows faith, repentance, baptism, receipt of the Holy Ghost, and continued righteousness to the end of one's mortal probation. (D. & C. 20:29; 2 Ne. 9:23-24.) ...

Even those in the celestial kingdom, however, who do not go on to exaltation, will have immortality only and not eternal life. Along with those of the telestial and terrestrial worlds they will be "ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory." They will live "separately and singly" in an unmarried state "without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity." (D. & C. 132:16-17.)

3. Salvation in its true and full meaning is synonymous with exaltation or eternal life and consists in gaining an inheritance in the highest of the three heavens within the celestial kingdom. With few exceptions this is the salvation of which the scriptures speak. It is the salvation which the saints seek. It is of this which the Lord says, "There is no gift greater than the gift of salvation." (D. & C. 6:13.) This full salvation is obtained in and through the continuation of the family unit in eternity, and those who obtain it are gods. (D. & C. 131:1-4; 132.)

Full salvation is attained by virtue of knowledge, truth, righteousness, and all true principles. Many conditions must exist in order to make such salvation available to men. Without the atonement, the gospel, the priesthood, and the sealing power, there would be no salvation [full salvation/exaltation]. Without continuous revelation, the ministering of angels, the working of miracles, the prevalence of gifts of the spirit, there would be no salvation. If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation [in the full sense of exaltation to godhood]. There is no salvation [exaltation] outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. ...

SALVATION BY GRACE

...one of the untrue doctrines found in modern Christendom is the concept that man can gain salvation (meaning in the kingdom of God) by grace alone and without obedience. This soul-destroying doctrine has the obvious effect of lessening the determination of an individual to conform to all of the laws and ordinances of the gospel, such conformity being essential if the sought for reward is in reality to be gained.

Immortality is a free gift and comes without works or righteousness of any sort; all men will come forth in the resurrection because of the atoning sacrifice of Christ. (1 Cor. 15:22.) In and of itself the resurrection is a form of salvation meaning that men are thereby saved from death, hell, the devil, and endless torment. ...Works are not involved, neither the works of the Mosaic law nor the works of righteousness that go with the fulness of the gospel.

Salvation in the celestial kingdom of God, however, is not salvation by grace alone. Rather, it is salvation by grace coupled with obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. (Third Article of Faith.) Those who gain it are "raised in immortality unto eternal life." (D. & C. 29:43; 2 Ne. 9:22-24.) Immortality comes by grace alone, but those who gain it may find themselves ****ed in eternity. (Alma 11:37-45.) Eternal life, the kind of life enjoyed by eternal beings in the celestial kingdom, comes by grace plus obedience. And the very opportunity to follow the course of good works which will lead to that salvation sought by the saints comes also by the grace of God.

BIBLE VERSION
BIBLE: Salvation is not limited to universal resurrection but is a gift from God to those who believe.

Romans 1:16

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Hebrews 9:28

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The lost will not obey so there is no chance that they will be saved because of obedience.

The reason that I say that you can’t earn grace or salvation is because the term, grace does not allow it to be earned by definition and salvation cannot be earned because as I keep repeating, salvation is not of works (See Ephesians 2:8-9)

Cite, please. Where have I ever claimed God extending His salvational grace to them who obey Him as "earning grace"? I don't believe God giving His grace to them who obey Him is earning grace--that is why it is called grace.

But I do believe those who obey God--and walk in His light--are promised the salvational grace of His Blood:

If, according to you, you don’t obey then you will not receive. Every time you make that statement you claim you have to earn salvation.

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The faith alone have to deny those scriptures--and usually engage a cancel and cover tactic by quoting other scriptures, in an attempt to cancel those truths out--and labeling those who quote such scriptures as those who believe we can earn God's grace.

1 John 1:7 is written to the saved. And it adds nothing to your argument. The lost do not and cannot walk in the light. The saved can walk in the light, but have to remain in the light. The saved are saved before they die a physical death. You have no concept of Bible truth.

Again--what is it about God extending His salvational grace to them that obey Him--as "earning grace"?

You are saying you have to obey in order to gain salvation. The Bible says that it is the gift of God, not of works.

Saxon

05-06-2015, 10:57 PM

And??? What do you believe is contradictory between Ephesians2--and Hebrews5:9?

I don’t believe that there is anything contradictory between Ephesians 2:8 to 10 and Hebrews 5:9. What is at fault is you trying to make it seem that obedience is a requirement to gain salvation. I will agree that all those that are saved do obey. I will not agree that in order to gain salvation you are required to obey. All that a person need do in order to have God save you by his grace is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. (See Acts 16:30 and 31)

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Again--there has been no argument that salvation is a gift of God--I agree with that. The scriptures state this gift goes to them that obey Him:

No, you do not agree with that. You are implying that you must obey in order to gain salvation. Then you claim it is a gift. All a person need do is receive the gift because it is a gift. Gifts are not given because of obligation, they are freely given without qualifications. You have no understanding whatsoever about gifts or grace regarding salvation.

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)[B]
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

That defies faith alone theology.

Explain how. You will have a hard time because there is no faith alone theology except in your wild imagination.

Again--did those who were promised the remission of sins--which repented and were water baptized--earn the forgiveness of sins?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Seeing that salvation is not of works did not earn the forgiveness of sins. Those in Acts 2:38 were saved by grace before they repented and were baptized. Salvation first then works after.

If not--then the scriptures testify God extends His salvational grace to them that obey Him. How are you claiming that contradicts Ephesians 2:8? It's not of works--as the scriptures state--but by Grace.

And that grace goes to them that obey God.

Who is obeying God? The lost or the saved? The lost will not obey God. Show me any lost person that will obey God and I will show you the figment of your imagination.

Scripture does not contradict scripture. It is people that use scripture out of context that contradict scripture. The Bible says that salvation is not of works. Any time you try to make scripture say that you need to perform some act or work to gain salvation you are wrong and are using scripture out of context.

Again--do you believe those receiving the remission of sins who repented and were baptized--were saved by grace or works?

Those who repented and were baptized were saved by grace before they repented and were baptized, they were not saved by works. (See Ephesians 2:9) Works always come after salvation. (See Ephesians 2:10) Find out what it means to be “in Christ”.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The Biblical text shows they were saved by God's grace--whuich went to those who obeyed God--and repented and were water baptized.

Were these of 1John saved by the Blood of Christ--or by walking in the light?

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The scriptures state they were saved by through the Blood of Christ--which those who walked in the light received.

You really have need of studying the Bible. You have no idea of what you are talking about.

The scriptures show that salvation came to those who obeyed Christ:

Galatians 3:26-29---King James Version (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

That connects salvation, faith, and baptism together--as integral components.

That is correct. After you have received salvation by the grace of God through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ you get baptized.

Salvation--according to those of the faith alone theology.

Who might they be????

dberrie2000

05-14-2015, 04:41 AM

I don’t believe that there is anything contradictory between Ephesians 2:8 to 10 and Hebrews 5:9. What is at fault is you trying to make it seem that obedience is a requirement to gain salvation.

What is there about Hebrews5:9 that you don't believe?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

I will agree that all those that are saved do obey.

They wouldn't be saved if they didn't obey:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

I will not agree that in order to gain salvation you are required to obey.

I know--the faith alone believe it's a salvation through a faith without works, IE--a dead faith saves:

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

IOW--in the faith alone theology--there is not the first act of obedience to Jesus Christ required for salvation:

2 John 1:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

All that a person need do in order to have God save you by his grace is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. (See Acts 16:30 and 31)

Is this belief in Christ?

Acts 2:38-42---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Galatians 6:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

dberrie2000

05-14-2015, 04:47 AM

All a person need do is receive the gift because it is a gift. Gifts are not given because of obligation, they are freely given without qualifications. You have no understanding whatsoever about gifts or grace regarding salvation.

What is it about the forgiveness of sins you don't consider a gift?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

You will have a hard time because there is no faith alone theology except in your wild imagination.

Sola fide--From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also historically known as the doctrine of justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity, and some in the Restoration Movement.

dberrie2000

05-14-2015, 04:51 AM

The reason that I say what I say is because you are putting that statement into a context of you have to obey or you won’t get saved. That is not the Biblical context.

You LDS version of salvation is not the same as the Bible version of salvation.

LDS VERSION
LDS: Believe Christ’s death brought release from grave and universal resurrection. Salvation by grace is universal resurrection. Beyond this, man must earn his place in heaven. Saved by grace after all we can do.

Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 25:23

For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

Could you explain for us how that differs from Christ's testimony?

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

dberrie2000

05-15-2015, 04:10 AM

Those in Acts 2:38 were saved by grace before they repented and were baptized. Salvation first then works after.

So--one does not need the forgiveness of sins for salvation?

That is a denial of the need of the Blood of Jesus Christ for salvation:

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Saxon

05-15-2015, 08:50 PM

What is there about Hebrews5:9 that you don't believe?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

There is nothing about Hebrews 5:9 that I don’t believe. What it is that I don’t believe is the way YOU are trying to make it mean you need to obey in order to gain salvation. You keep implying this in spite of the fact that the Bible clearly states that salvation is the GIFT of God and it is NOT of works. (See Ephesians 2:8 and 9) Ephesians 2:10 tells us that works definitely come into play AFTER we are in Christ Jesus, saved. You are attempting to make the Bible say two different things. You are wrong, not Hebrews 5:9.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

They wouldn't be saved if they didn't obey:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

After a person is saved they obey. Those that are not saved do not obey.

The lost will not obey, therefore the lost need to be saved. It is their disobedience (sin) that makes them unsaved. The saved are the ones that will obey. Their salvation by God’s grace is what makes them obedient. 2 Thessalonians 1:8 and 9 says that it is them that know not God and obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

This is clear that you have not read this correctly.

I know--the faith alone believe it's a salvation through a faith without works, IE--a dead faith saves:

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Just for the record, I will repeat myself. Faith does not save. Believing does not save. Grace does not save. What does save is God alone.

Why do you keep droning on about dead faith saving? Faith does not save, dead faith nor living faith.

IOW--in the faith alone theology--there is not the first act of obedience to Jesus Christ required for salvation:

2 John 1:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

There is no act of obedience that is required for salvation. Salvation is the GIFT of God. NOT of works. There is nothing that is going to change that.

Is this belief in Christ?

Acts 2:38-42---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Galatians 6:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Acts 2:38-42 is the result in belief in Christ because when you believe in Christ, God saves the believing person by his grace.

Galatians 6:7-9 is describing a universal effect on both the saved and the unsaved. Read it for what it says.

Saxon

05-15-2015, 09:10 PM

What is it about the forgiveness of sins you don't consider a gift?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Absolutely nothing. The forgiveness of sins, salvation, is totally a gift. Gifts are not earned. Gifts are freely given and freely received. Not of works. Works come after salvation. Acts 2:38 is about those that were saved after Peter preached. Seeing that salvation is a Gift that can’t be earned, it is obvious that the term “for” is to be taken for the term “because”. See any in-depth dictionary and look up for and see the use of for as because.

Sola fide--From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also historically known as the doctrine of justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity, and some in the Restoration Movement.

And your point is???? If you have bothered to actually read my posts you should realize by now that as far as salvation goes, I do not believe in the faith alone for salvation concept as YOU understand it.

Saxon

05-15-2015, 09:11 PM

Where did you ever get that idea from??

Saxon

05-15-2015, 09:16 PM

You can deny it all you want, but whenever I say not of works there is always some thing about you having to be doing something to gain salvation, repent, be baptized and the like. You can't have it both ways. Either it is a gift that is freely given and freely receive or it isn't.

Saxon

05-15-2015, 09:19 PM

More works, "after all we can do". What is the all we can do??

dberrie2000

05-16-2015, 04:22 AM

You can deny it all you want, but whenever I say not of works there is always some thing about you having to be doing something to gain salvation, repent, be baptized and the like.

Such as this example?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Saxon, IMO--your denial that the remission of sins is even necessary for salvation to occur, is only evidence of how far the faith alone will go in their boundary maintenance, in order to maintain their false theologies.

You can't have it both ways. Either it is a gift that is freely given and freely receive or it isn't.

That does nothing to explain why God gives His salvational grace only to them that obey Him:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9--King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Galatians 6:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

That is a direct connection of works and God's grace unto salvation. Just so it's not the works that save--does not preclude the fact God only gives this grace to them that obey Him:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Saxon

05-16-2015, 05:23 AM

dberrie2000

05-16-2015, 06:19 PM

Such as this example?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Saxon, IMO--your denial that the remission of sins is even necessary for salvation to occur, is only evidence of how far the faith alone will go in their boundary maintenance, in order to maintain their false theologies.

That does nothing to explain why God gives His salvational grace only to them that obey Him:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9--King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Galatians 6:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

That is a direct connection of works and God's grace unto salvation. Just so it's not the works that save--does not preclude the fact God only gives this grace to them that obey Him:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

The Bible says salvation is the gift of God, not of works. Their sins were remitted and they were to repent and be baptized because (for) of the remission of sins.

The Preposition “Eis” in Acts 2:38----by Wayne Jackson---https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1143-the-preposition-eis-in-acts-2-38

For several generations God’s people have conducted debates with our denominational neighbors as to the meaning of the word “for” (Greek, eis) in Acts 2:38. Peter commanded on that occasion:

“Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for [unto ASV] the remission of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

The English term “for” is very flexible; it may indicate a goal that is yet not reached, e.g., “Go to the pharmacy for [to obtain] medicine.” Or it may be used to refer to a circumstance that has transpired already, e.g., “He went to prison for [on account of] burglary.”

Because of this flexibility with reference to “for,” some have ***umed that the Greek word eis has the same flexibility, and therefore baptism is not to obtain the forgiveness of one’s sins; rather, it is engaged because of pardon received already (presumably at the point of faith). There are several things to be said in response to this ploy.
English Is Not Greek

Just because the English “for” has some elasticity, and thus may point to a precedent circumstance, such does not mean that the Greek preposition eis has similar properties.

The Greek term eis is found about 1,750 times in the New Testament. While it has a variety of meaning shades, it always is prospective (forward looking), and is never retrospective (backward looking) in its direction.

It is “an indicator of direction toward a goal, not as an indicator of location without direction” (Balz, 398). The preposition is used with the accusative case, meaning it points to the object of verbal action. Thus eis generally is translated by such terms as in, into, unto, to, toward, etc. It is a goal-oriented term.
Theology and Grammar Matters

Theologically speaking, the construction of the compound verbs — “repent and be baptized” — connected with the prepositional phrase — “for the forgiveness of sins” — demonstrates that the sense of eis cannot possibly be “because of,” thus conveying the sense, “on account of the forgiveness of your sins." And why is that?

Because it would equally affirm that one is required to “repent” because of the forgiveness of his sins. Who in the world subscribes to the notion that one repents of sin because his transgressions are forgiven already? That makes no sense at all.

Acts 2:38----http://www.abiblecommentary.com/eisinacts238.htm

SOME BELIEVE ACTS 2:38 MEANS “BECAUSE OF.” IS THIS TRUE?

13. The preposition eis is a common word.

14. It is used about 1800 times in the New Testament.

15. Here are some examples:

A. Mt. 2:1 – Wise men came “to” Jerusalem.

B. Mt. 2:13 – The Lord’s family fled “into” Egypt.

C. Acts 8:38 – Philip and the eunuch went “into” the water.

D. Acts 14:22 – People enter “into” the kingdom of God.

16. This preposition had a wide variety of meanings.

17. I did not study the more than 1700 places where this term is found.

18. I did do this.

19. I check the KJV translation for the words “because of.”

20. These two words are found together 41 times.

21. I then checked the Greek text in all 41 one of the places that have “because of.”

22. Not one time did I find that writers used the preposition eis, the preposition used in Acts 2:38.

23. A variety of language authorities were then consulted.

24. To make a long story short they said that there is no basis for saying that “eis” can mean because of.

Saxon

05-16-2015, 07:59 PM

English Is Not Greek

And conversely, Greek is not English. Coming from a bilingual family there is one thing that I do know, you either speak on language of the other. If you wish to us a word from the other language, it comes with all its meanings and nuances.

I can go on the net and find you all kinds of opinions both pro and con to our opposing point of view and we will find no value in the end as there are mul***udes of opinions for both sides. I propose that we look at what we are discussing. Basically you are saying that we must be baptized in order to gain salvation. If this is not the case, please give me a clear and simple answer and reasons if what I have stated about your opinion is not correct. My side is that salvation is the gift of God and not of works meaning that baptism is not a requirement for gaining salvation. Our point of reference is Acts 2:38 and the meaning of the English term “for”.

Acts 2: 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

It is a fact that Ephesians 2:8 and 9 says that salvation is the gift of God and that it is not of works. The second definition of the word “gift” is what Ephesians 2:8 lines up with; something voluntarily transferred by one person to another without compensation. This means that it is freely given, voluntarily transferred, and freely received, without compensation. The English term, “not of works” of Ephesians 2:9 seals the fact that a person can do nothing to merit salvation.

The fact that there is nothing a person can do to merit salvation drives the meaning of the English term “for” in Acts 2:38 to be used as “because of”. To ***ure you that this is a valid use of the English term “for”, please see Acts 10:44 to 48.The English term “for” in Acts 10:46 gives no other option as to be taken as “because”.

If you believe the Bible, as you claim, then you are left with no other option but coming to the conclusion that the Bible is teaching that you can do nothing to merit salvation because it is the gift of God.

If you still want to not believe the Bible then you are left to your own devices and where you end up in Eternity.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Full Definition of GIFT (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gift)

1: a notable capacity, talent, or endowment
2: something voluntarily transferred by one person to another without compensation
3: the act, right, or power of giving

Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Saxon

05-16-2015, 08:16 PM

Salvation does not come before repentance or baptism. The Lord taught we must be baptized or we CANNOT enter the kingdom of God

This is another “show me” situation. Salvation is the gift of God and therefore cannot be earned. If you plan on using John 3:3 to 7, I will tell you now that I don’t agree with you because it is not dealing with baptism.

In Acts 2, Peter tells the mul***ude they must repent and be baptized to be saved. It wasn't until after these two steps, along with receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost that they were counted among the saved. Anyone who believes salvation is before repentance and baptism not only has a poor understanding of grace, but knows nothing about the entire gospel, Jesus's ministry, and the Bible.

That is strange because you believing that baptism and repentance comes before salvation indicates that not only have you a poor understanding of grace, but know nothing about the entire gospel, Jesus's ministry, and the Bible.

Acts 2: 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

It is a fact that Ephesians 2:8 and 9 says that salvation is the gift of God and that it is not of works. The second definition of the word “gift” is what Ephesians 2:8 lines up with; something voluntarily transferred by one person to another without compensation. This means that it is freely given, voluntarily transferred, and freely received, without compensation. The English term, “not of works” of Ephesians 2:9 seals the fact that a person can do nothing to merit salvation.

The fact that there is nothing a person can do to merit salvation drives the meaning of the English term “for” in Acts 2:38 to be used as “because of”. To ***ure you that this is a valid use of the English term “for”, please see Acts 10:44 to 48.The English term “for” in Acts 10:46 gives no other option as to be taken as “because”.

If you believe the Bible, as you claim, then you are left with no other option but coming to the conclusion that the Bible is teaching that you can do nothing to merit salvation because it is the gift of God.

If you still want to not believe the Bible then you are left to your own devices and where you end up in Eternity.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Full Definition of GIFT (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gift)

1: a notable capacity, talent, or endowment
2: something voluntarily transferred by one person to another without compensation
3: the act, right, or power of giving

Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

dberrie2000

05-16-2015, 08:27 PM

And conversely, Greek is not English. Coming from a bilingual family there is one thing that I do know, you either speak on language of the other. If you wish to us a word from the other language, it comes with all its meanings and nuances.

I can go on the net and find you all kinds of opinions both pro and con to our opposing point of view and we will find no value in the end as there are mul***udes of opinions for both sides. I propose that we look at what we are discussing. Basically you are saying that we must be baptized in order to gain salvation. If this is not the case, please give me a clear and simple answer and reasons if what I have stated about your opinion is not correct. My side is that salvation is the gift of God ...

No one argues that--only that the gift of God goes to them that obey Him:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Saxon

05-16-2015, 08:51 PM

Then I take it that you reject what the Bible clearly teaches.

dberrie2000

05-17-2015, 03:50 AM

No one argues that--only that the gift of God goes to them that obey Him:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Then I take it that you reject what the Bible clearly teaches.

I don't reject Hebrews5:9--but the faith alone have to--it defies faith alone theology.

Hebrews 10:36---King James Version (KJV)
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

Saxon

05-17-2015, 04:26 AM

I don't reject Hebrews5:9--but the faith alone have to--it defies faith alone theology.

Hebrews 10:36---King James Version (KJV)
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

Do you Mormons not have the guts to honestly answer a challenge to your beliefs? You are dodging the issue. This is what you are rejecting that is what the Bible clearly teaches. If you are not willing to address the content of the lower quote, ask yourself, what is the point of being on this forum?

And conversely, Greek is not English. Coming from a bilingual family there is one thing that I do know, you either speak on language of the other. If you wish to us a word from the other language, it comes with all its meanings and nuances.

I can go on the net and find you all kinds of opinions both pro and con to our opposing point of view and we will find no value in the end as there are mul***udes of opinions for both sides. I propose that we look at what we are discussing. Basically you are saying that we must be baptized in order to gain salvation. If this is not the case, please give me a clear and simple answer and reasons if what I have stated about your opinion is not correct. My side is that salvation is the gift of God and not of works meaning that baptism is not a requirement for gaining salvation. Our point of reference is Acts 2:38 and the meaning of the English term “for”.

Acts 2: 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

It is a fact that Ephesians 2:8 and 9 says that salvation is the gift of God and that it is not of works. The second definition of the word “gift” is what Ephesians 2:8 lines up with; something voluntarily transferred by one person to another without compensation. This means that it is freely given, voluntarily transferred, and freely received, without compensation. The English term, “not of works” of Ephesians 2:9 seals the fact that a person can do nothing to merit salvation.

The fact that there is nothing a person can do to merit salvation drives the meaning of the English term “for” in Acts 2:38 to be used as “because of”. To ***ure you that this is a valid use of the English term “for”, please see Acts 10:44 to 48.The English term “for” in Acts 10:46 gives no other option as to be taken as “because”.

If you believe the Bible, as you claim, then you are left with no other option but coming to the conclusion that the Bible is teaching that you can do nothing to merit salvation because it is the gift of God.

If you still want to not believe the Bible then you are left to your own devices and where you end up in Eternity.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Full Definition of GIFT (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gift)

1: a notable capacity, talent, or endowment
2: something voluntarily transferred by one person to another without compensation
3: the act, right, or power of giving

Saxon

05-17-2015, 05:59 AM

It doesn't matter if you don't agree with what John 3 says, that chapter is still correct about baptism being necessary (meaning not optional) for salvation. To be born of water is baptism and to be born of the Spirit is to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. That's another that's referred to as a gift and the Bible also shows that water baptism is a prerequisite for that too.

I agree with what John 3 says. What I don’t agree with is that you are going to try to make it say that it is a reference to water baptism, when it is not.

To be born of water is the first birth into the world from your mother’s womb, the first birth. Born of the Spirit is to be born again receiving the indwelling of the Holy Ghost.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

You go back to Ephesians for every comment you make. Those verses do not teach a faith alone theory. How can anyone expect salvation without repentance and baptism?

You obviously don’t read Ephesians 2:8 to 10 or you wouldn’t ask that question. It says that salvation is the gift of God and it is not of works. That is how you can expect salvation without repentance and baptism. Ephesians 2:10 says that works are expected after you have been created in Christ Jesus (saved). Why is it so hard for you to get that fact through to your thinking equipment???

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be ****ed.
When the Savior taught this He made baptism something that has to come BEFORE salvation. "Shall be" is a phrase that refers to a result, not the cause. Stick with this verse in your attempt to refute it please because we aren't talking about Paul here, these are the Son of God's words.

If you would bother to put the verses together that say that salvation is God’s gift, not of works and all you have to do is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved then you can handle Mark 16:16 that says believe and be saved. You can add baptized in it you want but it is the believing that is required. Did you notice that if you don’t believe is not mentioned with not being baptized, you will be ****ed. You can believe and be baptized but you are going to believe first and be baptized. Also there is no mention of repentance which I thought you were insisting on as well. You are not consistent with your own requirements.

There is nothing in Mark 16:16 that indicates you have to be baptized before you are saved. He said believe first. Do you remember what the jailor asked? What shall I do to be saved? The answer was, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. The statement, He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved is true. Believe first and be saved and then be baptized and you can put in repent as well because it is only believing that is required.

Sticking with “this” verse alone is what gets you into trouble because you blind yourself to other important statements that instruct on salvation. If you leave out Ephesians 2:8 to 10 or the jailor’s question and the answer, how do you expect to come to the truth of the matter??

Saxon

05-17-2015, 07:14 PM

You completely twisted Mark around. It never says or implies to believe and be saved then come baptism. "He that believth AND is baptized shall be saved." Believing and being baptized are both before salvation. In Acts, Peter explains that the order is to have faith, repent, be baptized, and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

According to Paul and Silas “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and ye shall be saved”. No baptism or repentance or anything else, just believe. (See Acts 16:30 and 31) Mark 16:16 stipulates believe first then baptized. Paul and Silas, were they telling the jailor a lie? Were they bearing false witness? All liars shall have their part in the lake of fire. (See Revelation 21:8) No, they told the whole truth, believe and be saved. So believe and be baptized is salvation. The baptism here is not water baptism.

The baptism that is spoken of here is the Holy Ghost taking the new believer and immersing (baptizing) the believer into the body of Christ. (See 1 Corinthians 12:13) Look close and see who is doing the baptism, what is the element of baptism. It is the Holy Spirit doing the baptism and the believer is being baptized, immersed, into the body of Christ. There is no water involved with this baptism. Also notice the few last words, “and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.” Drinking into one Spirit is the indwelling of the Holy Ghost. 1 Corinthians 12:13 is a total description of salvation happening instantaneously after a soul believes. There is no time to do any works. Salvation is still the gift of God, not of works. LDS has it ALL wrong.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be ****ed.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and *****mongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Your idea about John 3 is void by the chapter itself. Nicodemus asked about entering the womb a second time and being literally born again. Jesus explained that He did not mean anything about being born from the womb but through literal water, also called baptism.

What does “born again” mean? It means just that, born again. Jesus didn’t correct Nicodemus for suggesting entering a second time into his mother’s womb. He had the right idea of born again but the wrong birth. Jesus was speaking of physical birth, that which is born of the flesh is flesh; and Spiritual birth, that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Jesus was speaking of two births, the physical birth into the world from your mother’s womb and the second birth of the spirit, born again. There is not a hint of water baptism in the whole discussion with Nicodemus.

Since when is water automatically water baptism? When you have a gl*** of water do you have a gl*** of water baptism?

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

dberrie2000

05-18-2015, 04:34 AM

dberrie2000

05-18-2015, 04:40 AM

No, they told the whole truth, believe and be saved. So believe and be baptized is salvation. The baptism here is not water baptism.

The baptism that is spoken of here is the Holy Ghost taking the new believer and immersing (baptizing) the believer into the body of Christ.

Even if it were the Holy Ghost, which I disagree with--you are still stymied by the Biblical NT testimony:

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Acts 10:34-35---King James Version (KJV)
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Saxon

05-18-2015, 05:22 AM

You are stymied by you inability to believe the Bible.

Saxon

05-18-2015, 05:29 AM

The Bible is a total challenge to LDS theology. You are my witness when I show you something that a 5 year old can read and grasp and all you can do is revert to LDS theology even when this so called LDS theology states the opposite of the Bible and you still claim LDS believes the Bible.

dberrie2000

05-18-2015, 12:50 PM

Even if it were the Holy Ghost, which I disagree with--you are still stymied by the Biblical NT testimony:

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Acts 10:34-35---King James Version (KJV)
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

The Bible is a total challenge to LDS theology.

The Bible is very friendly to the LDS theology--but anathema to faith alone theology:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone

I noticed you resorted to the taint so!!! argument again--without the first Biblical NT scripture. Why?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

You are my witness when I show you something that a 5 year old can read and grasp and all you can do is revert to LDS theology

Are you referring to this LDS theology?

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Acts 10:34-35---King James Version (KJV)
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Saxon

05-22-2015, 04:15 PM

I do not agree with LDS theology. You quoting the Bible out of context does not help your cause. Try explaining why, along with your out of context quotes.

The Bible is not LDS friendly. With LDS more than one God compared to the Bible saying that there is only one God. Jesus Satan's brother compared with Jesus creating Lucifer who became Satan. That is only two but I haven't the time ore energy to implicate most LDS doctrines.

Saxon

05-22-2015, 05:18 PM

Your turn! Start you proving what you are claiming.

dberrie2000

08-17-2016, 02:09 PM

I do not agree with LDS theology. You quoting the Bible out of context does not help your cause.

That seems to be the usual retort whenever scriptures are quoted that defy faith alone theology.

Care to address the scriptures?

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Acts 10:34-35---King James Version (KJV)
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

2 John 9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Christian

08-17-2016, 02:20 PM

WHICH mormon religion? There were over 150+ of them, you know (I can list them, their 'prophets' and times and locations if you would like; I've done so before.

Perhaps you should examine YOURSELF. . .

dberrie2000

08-17-2016, 02:42 PM

WHICH mormon religion?

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

So--which Christianity--the Biblical or the faith alone?

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone

Berean

01-16-2017, 09:23 AM

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

So--which Christianity--the Biblical or the faith alone?

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone

Nonsense

When people asked Jesus, "What shall we do that might work the works of God?", He replied, "This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent" (John 6:28-29).

Paul also said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved" (Acts 16:31)

Even Mormon scripture commands Mormons to teach ONLY faith, repentance and baptism as doctrine. Teaching as doctrine anything more than faith, repentance and baptism is of the devil. ( 3 Nephi 11:31-40; D&C 10:67-68; D&C 76:53-55; Mosiah 5:7; 18:18-20)

Mosiah 5:7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.

Why don't you believe doctrines that fully three fourths of your alleged "scriptures" (and I use that term loosely) the Bible, the Book of Mormon and the D&C, clearly teach?

You are teaching doctrines that your own "scriptures" do not allow you to teach, without being ****ed to hell. Your "scriptures insist that your "spirit of contention" in the face of clear teaching is "of the devil."

Especially pay attention to 3 Nephi 11:40.

27 And after this manner shall ye baptize in my name; for behold, verily I say unto you, that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one; and I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one.
28 And according as I have commanded you thus shall ye baptize. And there shall be no disputations among you, as there have hitherto been; neither shall there be disputations among you concerning the points of my doctrine, as there have hitherto been.

29 For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.
30 Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away.

31 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will declare unto you my doctrine.
32 And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.
33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.
34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be ****ed.

35 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost.
36 And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one.

37 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things.
38 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.
39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.

40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.

41 Therefore, go forth unto this people, and declare the words which I have spoken, unto the ends of the earth.

So I ask again, why don't you believe what fully 3/4 of your "scriptures" insist is true? That Jesus, the Holy Spirit and God are One in nature, and baptism, repentance and FAITH are the ONLY doctrines you should teach? If you teach any other doctrines, as you do, you will go to hell.

What part of these "scriptures" don't you believe?

Christian

01-18-2017, 11:11 AM

Could you explain to us if you are referring to the "Christianity" the faith alone preach--that is--salvation through a faith without works--or the true Christianity of the Biblical text?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Are you referring to the 'mormon version?' or to one of the other 150 or so 'mormon versions,' or to the 'white supremecist versions' or to the 'jw version?'

WHICH MORMON VERSION are you referring to and why should we believe YOU?

Christian

01-18-2017, 11:14 AM

The attack on faith alone theology does not seem to be limited to my point of view:

James 2:24---King James Version (KJV)
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only

Why don't you use the Bible? That is the source of your theological truths? Yet--there is very little use of the Bible by you. Why?

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Could you explain for us how you relate being judged according to works--after death--and that for life or ****ation--to faith alone theology?

Of course, your text TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT IS PRETEXT and nothing more. . .you are a joke!

You may do your 'ordinances' and junk all you want; they will only lead you to hell. . .:(

Christian

01-18-2017, 11:19 AM

Saxon

01-18-2017, 11:29 AM

Hey Sax,

He's been shown this p***age endless times. He is blind to it, ignores it, pretends it is not there.

Trying to open his eyes to the TRUTH is like trying to explain 'purple' to a person born blind. I suppose we should keep trying though, for the lurkers, not for him.

He is a victim of a reprobate mind. He is not willing to see the truth.

Berean

01-23-2017, 10:10 AM

He is a victim of a reprobate mind. He is not willing to see the truth.

Agreed. It's called "intellectual dishonesty." He's been shown the truth so many times from every angle and with so many Scriptures that in my opinion it's impossible for someone not to understand it.

Pride is our worst enemy. DBerrie just chooses to reject it anyway.

dberrie2000

02-25-2017, 02:04 PM

He is a victim of a reprobate mind. He is not willing to see the truth.

Hi Christian:

These truths?

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Acts 10:34-35---King James Version (KJV)
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

2 John 9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

DrDavidT

02-25-2017, 06:42 PM

Hi Christian:

These truths?

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Acts 10:34-35---King James Version (KJV)
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

2 John 9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

again you pull the same scriptures out but none support the teaching of the mormon ideology. how can you obey God when mormon ideology teaches things God did not teach? Where are your scriptures that instruct believers ot wear magic underwear, keep 2 years of food stocked up, that lucifer is Jesus' brother, that god made spiritual babies in 'heaven' and needs people to procreate to get them into a human body?

sorry but you fail in defending your ideology

dberrie2000

02-26-2017, 05:59 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Hi Christian:

These truths?

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Acts 10:34-35---King James Version (KJV)
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

2 John 9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

again you pull the same scriptures out but none support the teaching of the mormon ideology.

All of the above scriptures fit the LDS theology well. But what they don't do--is fit the faith alone theology. The faith alone share precious little in common with the Biblical NT theology.

You still have not printed for us what you find in the Biblical NT--which is not also found in the LDS church--as far as salvational doctrines go.

Christian

02-28-2017, 03:54 PM

All of the above scriptures fit the LDS theology well. But what they don't do--is fit the faith alone theology. The faith alone share precious little in common with the Biblical NT theology.

You still have not printed for us what you find in the Biblical NT--which is not also found in the LDS church--as far as salvational doctrines go.

YOUR FAIRYTALE VERSION of faith alone theology is TOTALLY BIBLICAL. YOU have nothing to offer God that you can 'give to Him' by your own hand. ALL you have is the sin and dirt of your own soiled being. JESUS DID IT ALL. Not joey smith's imaginary 'spirit-brother-of-satan-jesus', but the REAL Jesus, the ONLY begotten (fathered) Son of God (see Matt 16:18).

Joey smith lied to you. There's NO SALVATION in fairy-tale 'demon-christs.'

Christian

02-28-2017, 03:57 PM

Which 'lds' church? The fundamentalists? Strangites? RLDS?

Oh yes, they are just as authentic as the utah youngites.

Did I mention there are over 150 of the lds "only RIGHT ones?'

Want me to repost the LIST?:rolleyes::rolleyes::eek:

dberrie2000

02-28-2017, 05:53 PM

YOUR FAIRYTALE VERSION of faith alone theology is TOTALLY BIBLICAL.

Hi Christian:

I know:

James 2:24--New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and [COLOR="#FF0000"]not by faith alone.

dberrie2000

03-10-2017, 04:52 AM

Originally Posted by Christian View Post YOUR FAIRYTALE VERSION of faith alone theology is TOTALLY BIBLICAL.

Hi Christian:

I know:

James 2:24--New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Anyone care to address this concern?

Christian

03-10-2017, 11:54 AM

Hi Christian:

I know:

James 2:24--New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Anyone care to address this concern?

We have shown you that YOUR pretense on the dead horse you keep flogging is not believed by ANYONE ANYWHERE.

In other words, you are still making yourself look stupid.

dberrie2000

03-11-2017, 05:30 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Hi Christian:

I know:

James 2:24--New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Anyone care to address this concern?

We have shown you that YOUR pretense on the dead horse you keep flogging is not believed by ANYONE ANYWHERE.

In other words, you are still making yourself look stupid.

What is there about the Biblical scriptures that you feel is pretentious, a "dead horse"--or shouldn't be believed?

Christian--your approach here seems to be the followed whenever the Biblical scriptures defy one's theology. As I have stated before,--IMO--the faith alone share precious little with the Biblical NT:

Ephesians 2:20--King James Version (KJV)
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

The faith alone approach is the denial of all Biblical scriptures which defy their theology--and attacking some leader of the LDS church--usually, which lived over a century ago.

Care to address the posted scriptures?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Acts 10:34-35---King James Version (KJV)
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

2 John 9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.