WHO do you have faith in?

[Christian]

Jesus Christ? Or YOURSELF to 'do enough' good works?

I'll stick with Jesus, my good works come from HIS HOLY SPIRIT, not from myself.

[Erundur]

Jesus Christ? Or YOURSELF to 'do enough' good works?
We have faith in Jesus Christ. How did you not know that?

[theway]

Jesus Christ? Or YOURSELF to 'do enough' good works?I have faith in Jesus Christ, I must be saved then, right?


I'll stick with Jesus, my good works come from HIS HOLY SPIRIT, not from myself.Yeah, I can see you now on judgement day...
Lord: "Where were you when I needed clothes, was sick and needed looking after, was in prison and you came to visit me?"
Christian: "I knew you were a hard man, so I hid my faith in the ground so it would not steal your thunder Lord, but here is my faith" "After all Lord, you've got good works to spare, give me some of your oil for my lamp".

What do you think God's reply will be?
"well done, thy good and faithful servant"
Or "You wicked, lazy servant! Depart from Me"

[Christian]

We have faith in Jesus Christ. How did you not know that?

And WHICH jesus christ would that be? Joseph smith's INVENTED jesus? Or the REAL BIBLICAL ONE that is NOT a spirit brother of satan?

Yes, I think I DO know which one the mormons follow. Their posts and literature TELL US.

[Erundur]

And WHICH jesus christ would that be?
How many Jesus Christs do you think there are?

[Christian]

way posted:

I have faith in Jesus Christ, I must be saved then, right?

That would depend upon WHICH jesus christ you had faith in.

IF you have faith in a jesus christ that joey smith taught (who is a 'spirit-brother' of satan), then you are NOT saved.


Originally Posted by ChristianI'll stick with Jesus, my good works come from HIS HOLY SPIRIT, not from myself


Yeah, I can see you now on judgement day...
Lord: "Where were you when I needed clothes, was sick and needed looking after, was in prison and you came to visit me?"

Have YOU ever visited anyone in prison? I have. Have YOU ever looked after sick folks? I have. Have YOU ever provided shelter or clothing when it was needed? I have. Does that mean YOU are speaking of YOURSELF below?

Christian: "I knew you were a hard man, so I hid my faith in the ground so it would not steal your thunder Lord, but here is my faith" "After all Lord, you've got good works to spare, give me some of your oil for my lamp".

By that little rant I guess I am supposed to know that JESUS and HIS GOOD WORKS are not enough to save me according to you? Is THAT what you intended to say? THAT IS what it sounds like.

Don't try to put words into my mouth. YOUR words don't fit. I don't think Jesus is interested in YOUR words when you try to 'stick them into my mouth.'

What do you think God's reply will be?
"well done, thy good and faithful servant"
Or "You wicked, lazy servant! Depart from Me"

Since my faith is in Jesus Christ, and since it is HIS works (not my own), he will say the former, not the latter.
Rom 4:5-8
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin."
NKJV

No matter what, YOU don't get to judge my righteousness OR my works so you needn't concern yourself

[Christian]

How many Jesus Christs do you think there are?

I don't know. But I DO know the REAL Jesus Christ told us:

Matt 24:24-25
24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.
NKJV

Mark 13:22-23
22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.
NKJV

Isn't it INTERESTING that that 'all things' that Jesus told us DIDN'T INCLUDE any of your 'mormon specific' trash?

Are YOU following one of those false christs and false prophets?

I suspect so.

[Erundur]

I don't know.
Interesting. Well, we believe there's only one, and you can read about him in the Bible. That's who we believe in.

[Christian]

Interesting. Well, we believe there's only one, and you can read about him in the Bible. That's who we believe in.

So you DON'T believe the REAL JESUS when He said (IN THE BIBLE):

Matt 24:24-25
24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.
NKJV

Mark 13:22-23
22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.
NKJV

How can you claim to believe the REAL Jesus if you don't believe what HE SAYS?

[Erundur]

So you DON'T believe the REAL JESUS when He said (IN THE BIBLE):
Of course we do.

[teenapenny]

I have faith in Jesus Christ, I must be saved then, right?

Yeah, I can see you now on judgement day...
Lord: "Where were you when I needed clothes, was sick and needed looking after, was in prison and you came to visit me?"
Christian: "I knew you were a hard man, so I hid my faith in the ground so it would not steal your thunder Lord, but here is my faith" "After all Lord, you've got good works to spare, give me some of your oil for my lamp".

What do you think God's reply will be?
"well done, thy good and faithful servant"
Or "You wicked, lazy servant! Depart from Me"
I do not understand just what you are saying. I have accepted Jesus Christ as my Savior and I know he will lead me
to live the right way. It is credit to him, not me.

[theway]

way posted:

I have faith in Jesus Christ, I must be saved then, right?



IF you have faith in a jesus christ that joey smith taught (who is a 'spirit-brother' of satan), then you are NOT saved.
Wait a minute.... Did you just make-up this new requirement for salvation or is it in the Bible somewhere?
Book, Chapter and verse, please, which shows that believing that Jesus is the spirit brother of anyone, will keep you out of Heaven.


By that little rant I guess I am supposed to know that JESUS and HIS GOOD WORKS are not enough to save me according to you? No, they are not.... For instance, can Jesus's good works save an unrepentant sinner, or someone who denies the Holy Ghost?
I suppose it could, however if Jesus did, it would make the whole gospel a lie, and He would no longer be God.

[alanmolstad]

what kind of name is " KruAthApoloRelia"?

[Christian]

Wait a minute.... Did you just make-up this new requirement for salvation or is it in the Bible somewhere?
Book, Chapter and verse, please, which shows that believing that Jesus is the spirit brother of anyone, will keep you out of Heaven.

No, they are not.... For instance, can Jesus's good works save an unrepentant sinner, or someone who denies the Holy Ghost?
I suppose it could, however if Jesus did, it would make the whole gospel a lie, and He would no longer be God.

If pigs could fly. . .you can make up any kind of garbage you wish.

Jesus told us:
Matt 24:24-25
24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.
NKJV

Do you REALLY BELIEVE that a false christ (you know, the spirit-brother-of-satan christ of joey smith's private invention) can save your soul?

[Christian]

I do not understand just what you are saying. I have accepted Jesus Christ as my Savior and I know he will lead me
to live the right way. It is credit to him, not me.

IF you are a mormon, following the false christ of joe smith, then you have NOT accepted the REAL Jesus Christ at all.

[Erundur]

IF you are a mormon, following the false christ of joe smith, then you have NOT accepted the REAL Jesus Christ at all.
Okay, tell us why you think Jesus Christ is a false christ.

[teenapenny]

IF you are a mormon, following the false christ of joe smith, then you have NOT accepted the REAL Jesus Christ at all.
I know that, I am not a Mormon.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by ChristianSo you DON'T believe the REAL JESUS when He said (IN THE BIBLE):


Of course we do.

Then why don't you believe what He SAID when He SAID:

Matt 24:24-25
24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.
NKJV

Mark 13:22-23
22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.
NKJV
????

[Christian]

So, to recap this conversation, "Christian" chides a poster for putting words in his mouth. "Erunder" tells "Christian" that he/ Mormons believe in the Jesus of the Bible. "Christian" then questions how "Erunder" can believe when he doesn't believe what Jesus said. Yet, "Erunder" never claimed or said he doesn't believe what Jesus said.

Maybe "Christian" better remember what he writes so he doesn't end up hypocritically doing the very things he accuses others of doing.


Since erunder claims mormonism as his religion and his belief, then it is likely he worships the mormon gods, follows the mormon false prophet and false christ, the only christ they teach.

I follow only the God of the Bible and the Jesus of the Bible. The Jesus I follow is NOT the mormon 'spirit-brother-of-satan' as THEY say they believe.

Perhaps it would be better if KruAthApoloRelia thought a little more about what she posts. . .less foot-in-mouth keyboarding imho.

[Christian]

way posted:

Yeah, I can see you now on judgement day...
Lord: "Where were you when I needed clothes, was sick and needed looking after, was in prison and you came to visit me?"

I have been to the rescue mission many times but have never once seen a single mormon leader there (or any other mormon for that matter) when we fed the hungry and gave them clothing.

I have taught Bible studies at our local prison over the years. When was the last time YOU went behind the iron gates?

Christian: "I knew you were a hard man, so I hid my faith in the ground so it would not steal your thunder Lord, but here is my faith" "After all Lord, you've got good works to spare, give me some of your oil for my lamp".

What do you think God's reply will be?
"well done, thy good and faithful servant"
Or "You wicked, lazy servant! Depart from Me"

Is THAT the best you can do? Pretend to put words into my mouth that I would NEVER say? SURELY you could come up with SOME better insult than THAT!

When I see the Lord at judgement day I will REJOICE! JESUS is the reason for my joy, not the works I do. HE works in/on/through me daily.

YOU needn't worry. YOUR words may reflect YOUR doings, but they don't reflect me at all.

[Christian]

Okay, tell us why you think Jesus Christ is a false christ.

The REAL Jesus, the Jesus that the BIBLE tells about CREATED the angels and everything else (John 1:1ff

The false mormon 'christ' is the one that the mormons pretend to be the 'spirit-brother-of-satan.' Jesus CREATED the angels, INCLUDING the fallen satan. He is satan's CREATOR, not his brother.

joey smith invented a whole new religion with gods that used to be men and demons being the 'spirit brothers' of their saviors.

joey smith was simply a liar and a false prophet.

[Christian]

I know that, I am not a Mormon.

I'm glad. Are you a Christian? With what group do you worship?

[alanmolstad]

The REAL Jesus, the Jesus that the BIBLE tells about CREATED the angels and everything else (John 1:1ff

The false mormon 'christ' is the one that the mormons pretend to be the 'spirit-brother-of-satan.' Jesus CREATED the angels, INCLUDING the fallen satan. He is satan's CREATOR, not his brother.

joey smith invented a whole new religion with gods that used to be men and demons being the 'spirit brothers' of their saviors.

joey smith was simply a liar and a false prophet.

"joey smith was simply a liar and a false prophet".....Amen!

[teenapenny]

I'm glad. Are you a Christian? With what group do you worship?
I am Christian and attend a Non Denominational Christian Church.

[alanmolstad]

I am Christian and attend a Non Denominational Christian Church.I noticed a while back that you visit the forum a lot,but never really post much....

[teenapenny]

I noticed a while back that you visit the forum a lot,but never really post much....
When I left the LDS church I started coming here, and that helped me a lot. I discovered things to research to lead my way to the true Jesus Christ. At this time I am secure in my beliefs and I am so happy that I am now a true Christian.

[Erundur]

Then why don't you believe what He SAID when He SAID:
Your question ***umes a false premise.

[Erundur]

The false mormon 'christ'
Tell us why you think Jesus Christ is a false christ. Come on, convince me.

[teenapenny]

Tell us why you think Jesus Christ is a false christ. Come on, convince me.
He said Mormon 'christ'. not Jesus Christ.

[Erundur]

He said Mormon 'christ'. not Jesus Christ.
Mormons believe in Jesus Christ.

[teenapenny]

Mormons believe in Jesus Christ.
Not the one in the Bible.

[Erundur]

Not the one in the Bible.
Yeah, the one in the Bible. But how many Jesus Christs do you think there are?

[Phoenix]

Yeah, the one in the Bible. But how many Jesus Christs do you think there are?

That is a concept that seems hard for some contra-LDS to comprehend. If you asked 10 different people what they believe about Pres. Obama, none of the 10 people would believe exactly the same things about him. There would be some overlap, but the areas where they disagree could vary from "He is the savior of the USA" to "He is the most evil president we've ever had."

But these people are all talking about the same individual. There is only one Pres. Obama. The fact that people don't all believe the same things about him does not change that.

[dberrie2000]

He said Mormon 'christ'. not Jesus Christ.

Just a note here:

The name of the LDS church is--The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It bears the name of who we worship. Does your church bear that name?

[theway]

When I left the LDS church I started coming here, and that helped me a lot. I discovered things to research to lead my way to the true Jesus Christ.
I think you are mistaken.... That could not of happen from what you learned here???
The Evangelical theories expressed here, say that "God does it all" because man is a natural enemy to God and would NEVER seek him out or follow Him. Which means, that you would have to be drawn against your will, kicking and screaming to Christ... But never "lead".
Perhaps you picked up that "lead to Christ" thing while you were LDS. At least the Evangelicals here have not completely exercised that truth from you yet.


At this time I am secure in my beliefs and I am so happy that I am now a true Christian.Feeling "secure" and content are Satan's counterfeit to the Lord's "peace"; likewise, Satan would have us settle for happiness, when the Lord offers us Joy.

I also find it funny that you used the words "true Christian" and at the same time claim to be nondenominational???
The very idea of nondenominational Churches is that there are no one "true Christians" because they will accept almost any type of Christology or belief in Christ without judgement of whether that belief it is True or not.
Apparently you are a little confused about what you are supposed to believe, and what kind of Church you belong to.

[teenapenny]

I think you are mistaken.... That could not of happen from what you learned here???
The Evangelical theories expressed here, say that "God does it all" because man is a natural enemy to God and would NEVER seek him out or follow Him. Which means, that you would have to be drawn against your will, kicking and screaming to Christ... But never "lead".
Perhaps you picked up that "lead to Christ" thing while you were LDS. At least the Evangelicals here have not completely exercised that truth from you yet.

Feeling "secure" and content are Satan's counterfeit to the Lord's "peace"; likewise, Satan would have us settle for happiness, when the Lord offers us Joy.

I also find it funny that you used the words "true Christian" and at the same time claim to be nondenominational???
The very idea of nondenominational Churches is that there are no one "true Christians" because they will accept almost any type of Christology or belief in Christ without judgement of whether that belief it is True or not.
Apparently you are a little confused about what you are supposed to believe, and what kind of Church you belong to.
You seem to know nothing about nondenominational Churches. What I learned here was that the LDS church was not the church that worshiped the God of the Bible. It was a church run by men. The church I attend studies the Bible.

[teenapenny]

Just a note here:

The name of the LDS church is--The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It bears the name of who we worship. Does your church bear that name?
Oh, and names mean everything?

[Christian]

Your question ***umes a false premise.

You indicated you don't believe that false christs exist. I demonstrated that Jesus CREATED the Angels (John 1:1-3) and that satan is NOT as your false prophet claimed, a 'spirit brother' of Jesus, but is instead a CREATION BY Jesus.

[Christian]

Yeah, the one in the Bible. But how many Jesus Christs do you think there are?

I answered this one already. . .

Matt 24:24-25
24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.
NKJV

Mark 13:22-23
22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.
NKJV

I find it interesting that the REAL Jesus Christ never mentioned your 'spirit children,' or ANY OF THE OTHER 'mormon specific' dung at all!

Geeee, I WONDER WHY? Just because it is not from GOD?

[Christian]

Oh, and names mean everything?

I notice they don't use the word "Y'shua" Or "Iesous," the REAL names used in BIBLICAL DOCUMENTS, but instead they use TRANSLITERATION words.

There is nothing wrong with using "Jesus Christ," in your name (the Church of Christ, aryan nations[a white supremecist religion] does that. . .), but to be 'militant' about using a TRANSLITERATION is being just as dishonest as the Church of Christ, aryan nations is.

[Christian]

:) Welcome home! :)

[theway]

You seem to know nothing about nondenominational Churches.Not true... Half my family goes to nondenominational Churches. Nondenominationals Churches are a new phenomenon that came into being only about 30 years ago, yet is now the 3rd fastest growing religious movement behind No religion and Atheism.
Christian Nondenominationals by their very name denote the fact that they do not adhere to any specific "Christian" dogma or doctrine. This means that the adherents to such Churches are able to believe whatever they want about Christ and His gospel because they will never be challenged on those beliefs, even if they contradict other members of the Church, or even if those beliefs are different in doctrines of salvation. That's why I call Christian Nondenominationals "Christian Agnostic Churches" because they all believe in Christ, they are just not sure what it is they believe about Christ or His doctrine.
I have always said that a belief in Christ is a good start, however doctrine will always get in the way of that belief!

What I learned here was that the LDS church was not the church that worshiped the God of the Bible.Notice what you just wrote... "What I learned..." This is the typical nondenominational mindset, and why ND Churches are so popular with the modern world... It all about what "you" are willing to accept as truth, and what you are willing to do about it, yet NDs give you the permission to still call yourself a Christian with only a minimal effort.

It was a church run by men. Yeah so??? All Churches are run by men, and all churches claim Christ at the head of their Church... Therefore that is useless criteria in which to determine which Church or doctrine is correct.

The church I attend studies the Bible.Once again... So??? The LDS (Mormon) Church studies the Bible also... In fact multiple nonMormon studies have shown that Mormons on average know and understand more about the Bible than any other "Christian group", spend more hours studying the Bible in Church, and spend more hours studying the Bible at home than any other religious group also. Does that make the Mormon Church true in your eyes?

[theway]

I notice they don't use the word "Y'shua" Or "Iesous," the REAL names used in BIBLICAL DOCUMENTS, but instead they use TRANSLITERATION words.

Funny comment... Considering you chose "Christian" as your screen name and not Y'shua???

[Erundur]

You indicated you don't believe that false christs exist.
Where did I indicate that?


I demonstrated that Jesus CREATED the Angels (John 1:1-3) and that satan is NOT as your false prophet claimed, a 'spirit brother' of Jesus, but is instead a CREATION BY Jesus.
No you ***erted it.

Neither one of those was the false premise your question ***umed.

[Erundur]

I answered this one already. . .
I wasn't asking you.

[Christian]

erunder posted:

Originally Posted by ErundurYeah, the one in the Bible. But how many Jesus Christs do you think there are?


I wasn't asking you.

Since you had already BEEN SHOWN WHAT GOD SAYS ABOUT IT, were you hoping the answer would change?

Nobody knows how many there are, but we know they exist. Jesus said so:

Matt 24:24-25
24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.
NKJV

Mark 13:22-23
22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.
NKJV

AND as has been pointed out to you before, of those ALL THINGS, Jesus seems to have 'forgotten about' all of that mormon-specific doctrinal garbage like priesthood authority, baptism for the dead, 'Christian' temples, etc etc etc.

Geeeeeeee I wonder WHY? Do you suppose that is because JESUS NEVER TAUGHT IT? Because joey smith MADE IT ALL UP?

You don't WANT to talk about THOSE THINGS, DO YOU? That is because you cannot demonstrate that ONE SHRED OF IT came from God!

[Erundur]

Since you had already BEEN SHOWN WHAT GOD SAYS ABOUT IT, were you hoping the answer would change?
I wasn't asking God either.

[dberrie2000]

Just a note here:

The name of the LDS church is--The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It bears the name of who we worship. Does your church bear that name?


Oh, and names mean everything?

Acts 4:10-12---King James Version (KJV)
10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

[dberrie2000]

You seem to know nothing about nondenominational Churches. What I learned here was that the LDS church was not the church that worshiped the God of the Bible. It was a church run by men.

That's a strange statement. Jesus Christ founded His church on living, mortal apostles and prophets--who were men. The Chief Corner Stone is also:

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Care to explain that one?

Ephesians 2:20---King James Version (KJV)
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

[Christian]

way posted:
Not true... Half my family goes to nondenominational Churches.

So understanding their message comes to you by osmosis? By proximity?

Naah.

Nondenominationals Churches are a new phenomenon that came into being only about 30 years ago, yet is now the 3rd fastest growing religious movement behind No religion and Atheism.

Completely false statement. I am 70 years old. When I was 15, my best friend and I attended a non-denominational church every Sunday. That was long before I became a Christian, but that was also 55 years ago, not just 30. DO THE MATH!

Of course mormonism isn't 200 years old yet. REAL Christianity is about 2,000 years old, but joey smith hadn't invented HIS religion back then. . .

Christian Nondenominationals by their very name denote the fact that they do not adhere to any specific "Christian" dogma or doctrine.

Pure NONSENSE. That is like saying that your mormon seminaries do not adhere to any specific "mormon" dogma or doctrine. In other words, it is PURE NONSENSE.

Non-denoms about ALWAYS use the BIBLE as their source for 'dogma' (whatever you want to call that) and doctrine, not the writings of a lunatic like joey smith or bringum young.

This means that the adherents to such Churches are able to believe whatever they want about Christ and His gospel because they will never be challenged on those beliefs,

We CHRISTIANS are challenged about our beliefs DAILY by such as yourself; non-Christians, atheists, and followers of islam, mormonism, branch davidianism, or jw'ism. We do as the Apostle Peter told us to do in 1 Peter 3:13-17

1 Peter 3:13-17
13 And who is he who will harm you if you become followers of what is good? 14 But even if you should suffer for righteousness' sake, you are blessed. "And do not be afraid of their threats, nor be troubled." 15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear; 16 having a good conscience, that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile your good conduct in Christ may be ashamed. 17 For it is better, if it is the will of God, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.
NKJV

even if they contradict other members of the Church, or even if those beliefs are different in doctrines of salvation.

You sound like you are off in fantasyland. Our beliefs come from GOD'S WORD, the Bible, not other members of a congregation.

AND THEN

There are the 150+ different MORMON 'gospels.' You know, those SMITHITE GROUPS that ALL disown each other because EACH one of them is supposedly the 'right' one to the exclusion of all of the rest. Each with its own "apostles" and each with its own leader, supposedly called by God? You know. . .all of THOSE different doctrines and beliefs?

That's why I call Christian Nondenominationals "Christian Agnostic Churches" because they all believe in Christ, they are just not sure what it is they believe about Christ or His doctrine.

More fantasyland nonsense! I know more MORMONS who are not sure what it is they believe about Christ or His doctrines, OR what their cultic religion actually teaches!

I have always said that a belief in Christ is a good start, however doctrine will always get in the way of that belief!

YOU may say anything you like. YOU saying it does not make it become true.

But it IS true that belief in Christ (such as mere intellectual ***ent) can become clouded by trashy mormon doctines that do not come from God at all.

Notice what you just wrote... "What I learned..." This is the typical nondenominational mindset, and why ND Churches are so popular with the modern world... It all about what "you" are willing to accept as truth, and what you are willing to do about it, yet NDs give you the permission to still call yourself a Christian with only a minimal effort.

And just how much of THIS post is written by YOU with YOU saying "I" this and "I" that. . .?

Pot, Kettle.


Yeah so??? All Churches are run by men, and all churches claim Christ at the head of their Church... Therefore that is useless criteria in which to determine which Church or doctrine is correct.

HOWEVER CHRIST'S CHURCH is guided by the HOLY SPIRIT LIVING WITHIN EACH OF HIS MEN. Your mormon religion is led by nothing but mere men, it' IS true.

Once again... So??? The LDS (Mormon) Church studies the Bible also...

In exactly the same way as the roman catholics do. . .with their own private 'spins' on the text, in truth only giving 'lip service' to the Bible and paying more attention to the trash written by joe smith. The catholics pay more attention to the junk written by their magistearium.

In fact multiple nonMormon studies have shown that Mormons on average know and understand more about the Bible than any other "Christian group", spend more hours studying the Bible in Church, and spend more hours studying the Bible at home than any other religious group also. Does that make the Mormon Church true in your eyes?

You have been drinking too much of that mormon kool-aid propaganda. You cannot show me EVEN ONE valid non-mormon study that shows any such thing.

How would they 'measure' it? WHICH CHRISTIAN GROUPS would they query? Nobody has queried MY congregation about such stuff.

Naah, you just made that up out of thin air, most likely. Just like joey smith made up his bom, and other junk like the 'book of abraham' (a cheap fraud supposedly taken from a common funeral document).

You have nothing to offer from reality.

Your religion is clearly based on fantasy and lies.

[Christian]

That's a strange statement. Jesus Christ founded His church on living, mortal apostles and prophets--who were men. The Chief Corner Stone is also:

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Care to explain that one?

Ephesians 2:20---King James Version (KJV)
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;


Your cult CLAIMS the foundation (the beginning) of the church must be mortally alive and present here on earth today, BUT the Chief Cornerstone of CHRISTIANITY (JESUS CHRIST) is IGNORED in that requirement.

Is that because you cannot have a popularity contest election and 'elect' someone to BE your version of your 'jesus?'

You can have pretend 'apostles,' just as the other 150 or so SMITH religions each do, but pretend doesn't work with God. JESUS had nothing to do with your manmade 'apostles.'

[dberrie2000]

That's a strange statement. Jesus Christ founded His church on living, mortal apostles and prophets--who were men. The Chief Corner Stone is also:

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Care to explain that one?

Ephesians 2:20---King James Version (KJV)
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;


Your cult CLAIMS the foundation (the beginning) of the church must be mortally alive and present here on earth today, BUT the Chief Cornerstone of CHRISTIANITY (JESUS CHRIST) is IGNORED in that requirement.

Just a note, Christian--Jesus Christ was not a mortal when Paul wrote the letter to the Ephesians--but apostles were. The living, mortal apostles formed the foundation of Christ's church from it's inception--and carried throughout the NT history found in the NT.

The LDS church still has that foundation.

[Christian]

Just a note, Christian--Jesus Christ was not a mortal when Paul wrote the letter to the Ephesians--but apostles were. The living, mortal apostles formed the foundation of Christ's church from it's inception--and carried throughout the NT history found in the NT.

The LDS church still has that foundation.

No they don't. All they have is joey smith and a bunch of wannabe 'prophets' who have ZERO connection to the originals or to God. Of course their wannabe 'prophets' can't prophesy, haven't been able to do so through their last 5 or more 'iterations,' nor for the last 75+ years now. They really AREN'T PROPHETS AT ALL, but are just 'wannabe's.'

We BIBLICAL Christians have the foundation of the REAL prophets and REAL Apostles in the WORD OF GOD, the BIBLE.

When Paul wrote the leter to the Ephesians he said NOTHING about 'mortal' anybody, BUT HE DID COUNT JESUS AS THE CORNERSTONE OF THE FOUNDATION; whatever the state of the foundation was, so was JESUS.

Joey smith couldn't read with understanding because the Bible was nonsense to him.

1 Cor 2:14
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
NKJV

GOD said it. You don't like it? Go argue with GOD.

[Christian]

Funny comment... Considering you chose "Christian" as your screen name and not Y'shua???

I am just fine using the transliteration, but I won't pretend that the transliteration must be in my moniker just because 'THE NAME' makes it 'speshul.'

The comment that the words "jesus christ" appear in your church's name does not make IT 'speshul' either.

Baptist is no less authentic. Neither is CHRISTIAN. :p

[Christian]

erunder posted:

I demonstrated that Jesus CREATED the Angels (John 1:1-3) and that satan is NOT as your false prophet claimed, a 'spirit brother' of Jesus, but is instead a CREATION BY Jesus.

No you ***erted it.

FALSE. IF you look at the part I CUT and PASTED above, you should notice that I pointed you to the Gospel of John which SAYS CLEARLY:

John 1:1-4
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (if you bother to look at verse 14 you find that the Word is JESUS CHRIST). 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
NKJV


Are ANGELS 'things?' Yep, they are. The Bible says it clearly. Jesus CREATED the angels.

NO CHRISTIAN IN CHRIST's church EVER taught that the father had gazillions of 'spirit babies' or that Jesus was anything like that. THIS SCRiPTURE sas that Jesus was there IN THE BEGINNING with the Father. NOT just one of a gazillion 'spirit babies' or related in any way OTHER THAN CREATOR to your demons including satan.

Sorry erunder, but you follow a false prophet (who can't, just like the rest of the mormon 'prophets', prophesy) and a false christ, a fictional character INVENTED BY joey smith.

If you are happy with false gods and false christs and false prophets, you are on your own. . .

[dberrie2000]

Just a note, Christian--Jesus Christ was not a mortal when Paul wrote the letter to the Ephesians--but apostles were. The living, mortal apostles formed the foundation of Christ's church from it's inception--and carried throughout the NT history found in the NT.

The LDS church still has that foundation.


[COLOR=#008000]No they don't.

Yes they do--here they are:



Boyd K. Packer
Elder L. Tom Perry
Elder Russell M. Nelson
Elder Dallin H. Oaks
Elder M. Russell Ballard
Elder Richard G. Scott
Elder Robert D. Hales
Elder Jeffrey R. Holland
Elder David A. Bednar
Elder Quentin L. Cook
Elder D. Todd Christofferson
Elder Neil L. Andersen

[Erundur]

FALSE. IF you look at the part I CUT and PASTED above, you should notice that I pointed you to the Gospel of John which SAYS CLEARLY:

John 1:1-4
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (if you bother to look at verse 14 you find that the Word is JESUS CHRIST). 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
NKJV
Which does not say "Jesus CREATED the angels."


Are ANGELS 'things?' Yep, they are. The Bible says it clearly. Jesus CREATED the angels.
No, that is your interpretation of the text.


NO CHRISTIAN IN CHRIST's church EVER taught that the father had gazillions of 'spirit babies' or that Jesus was anything like that.
I know. It's the anti-Mormons who teach that.


Sorry erunder, but you follow a false prophet (who can't, just like the rest of the mormon 'prophets', prophesy) and a false christ, a fictional character INVENTED BY joey smith.
As a Christian, I disagree with you that Jesus Christ is a false Christ and a fictional character.

[Phoenix]

The Bible says it clearly. Jesus CREATED the angels.


Like Erundur, I want to see the verse that clearly says "Jesus (not His Father) created the angels."

[alanmolstad]

No they don't. All they have is joey smith and a bunch of wannabe 'prophets' who have ZERO connection to the originals or to God. Of course their wannabe 'prophets' can't prophesy, haven't been able to do so through their last 5 or more 'iterations,' nor for the last 75+ years now. They really AREN'T PROPHETS AT ALL, but are just 'wannabe's.'

We BIBLICAL Christians have the foundation of the REAL prophets and REAL Apostles in the WORD OF GOD, the BIBLE.

When Paul wrote the leter to the Ephesians he said NOTHING about 'mortal' anybody, BUT HE DID COUNT JESUS AS THE CORNERSTONE OF THE FOUNDATION; whatever the state of the foundation was, so was JESUS.

Joey smith couldn't read with understanding because the Bible was nonsense to him.

1 Cor 2:14
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
NKJV

GOD said it. You don't like it? Go argue with GOD.

Amen to that!

[alanmolstad]

erunder posted:


No you ***erted it.

FALSE. IF you look at the part I CUT and PASTED above, you should notice that I pointed you to the Gospel of John which SAYS CLEARLY:

John 1:1-4
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (if you bother to look at verse 14 you find that the Word is JESUS CHRIST). 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
NKJV


Are ANGELS 'things?' Yep, they are. The Bible says it clearly. Jesus CREATED the angels.

NO CHRISTIAN IN CHRIST's church EVER taught that the father had gazillions of 'spirit babies' or that Jesus was anything like that. THIS SCRiPTURE sas that Jesus was there IN THE BEGINNING with the Father. NOT just one of a gazillion 'spirit babies' or related in any way OTHER THAN CREATOR to your demons including satan.

Sorry erunder, but you follow a false prophet (who can't, just like the rest of the mormon 'prophets', prophesy) and a false christ, a fictional character INVENTED BY joey smith.

If you are happy with false gods and false christs and false prophets, you are on your own. . .


This is correct..
Angels are "things"...
Jesus Christ is the creator of all such "things"



case-closed....

[Phoenix]

This is correct..
I would like to see more evidence that it's correct, than just your belief.


Angels are "things"...
If so, then the Persons of the Trinity are things as well.
If you're not going to agree with realities such as the definition of a noun (a person OR a place OR a thing)and the obvious implication that there can be a difference between a person and a thing, then you must take as your position the belief that God the Father and God the Holy Spirit are things, not people, not persons...just things, in the same category as a rock or a chair or the solar system.

The problem this will cause you will become apparent in about 5 seconds.


Jesus Christ is the creator of all such "things"
Then you believe that Jesus Christ created God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.


case-closed...

[dberrie2000]

This is correct..
Angels are "things"...
Jesus Christ is the creator of all such "things"

case-closed....

Could we reopen that case with this question?

Who was this Angel--and is He a thing?

Genesis 48:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a mul***ude in the midst of the earth.

[alanmolstad]

God is not a "thing"

Things are creations of God...

All things are created by God....
Christ is God...
Christ is the creator...

Christ created all things.

Angels are one of the things that God created.
Christ is the creator that made all things, and therefore, Jesus made all the angels....

[alanmolstad]

Could we reopen that case with this question?

Who was this Angel--and is He a thing?

Genesis 48:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a mul***ude in the midst of the earth.

I believe he may be referring to Genesis 31 :11

From the text and the story we do see that he had dreams of angels..It also says he saw a few angels at 32:1...
And then there also is the story of the time he got into a fight all night long with a man...

from this we can understand that many angels were sent into his life to carry out the instructions of the Creator.

[dberrie2000]

I believe he may be referring to Genesis 31 :11

From the text and the story we do see that he had dreams of angels..It also says he saw a few angels at 32:1...
And then there also is the story of the time he got into a fight all night long with a man...

from this we can understand that many angels were sent into his life to carry out the instructions of the Creator.

I'm referring to your post--which labeled angels as "things":


Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
This is correct..
Angels are "things"...
Jesus Christ is the creator of all such "things"

case-closed....

Again--is this Angel a "thing"?

Genesis 48:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a mul***ude in the midst of the earth.

You do realize that is a reference to Christ?

[alanmolstad]

I'm referring to your post--which labeled angels as "things":



Again--is this Angel a "thing"?
.

The cl***ic biblical use of the term, to be describing a created heavenly creature (both the good angels, and the bad angels) are created things...
They are "creatures"...
They are things that came into being by the creative work of God.

The Bible tells us that it was Jesus Christ that made "all things"...and that without him nothing was made that was ever made.

Notice the Bible tells us that Christ made "all things"
It does not say that Christ made all "other" things...

For if Christ was a creation of God, then he would be just one of the many things that god made...
He would be a creature...and as such the Bible would be in error telling us that Christ made "all things". for it should have said that Christ made "all other things'.

So the moment I read that Christ made "all things" I take this to mean that Christ is not a "thing"
He cant be a thing.
For me made "all things"

Now the term 'angel" can be used in all kinds of different contexts, and this would of course change the meanings...an example would be that a dog that leads a search party to a lost child might be called the child's "angel" by the family of the child.

Or you could even term inanimate objects as also being "angels", as I once was reading a story of a giant meteor that hits the earth being called "The Angel Of Death"

So as with all things, you have to always keep in mind the full context of how a word is used....because you dont want to get mixed up and think that a dog or a big rock that might be called an "Angel" must therefore always mean that such things are messengers from heaven...



Now in the verse we are dealing with and the use of the term "Angel" by the person of Israel, we have a very good understanding from the text that at several times inhis life he did receive special 'visitations' that could be accounts of the cl***ic heavenly "angels"

[Phoenix]

I don't think "things" is the correct term to use to describe living, sentient beings.

People are not things. Rocks, trees, mountains, rivers, and the roller coaster at Disneyland are things.

[alanmolstad]

We are things...we are made.
We are created.

God is not a thing.
Only God was never created

[Phoenix]

I am unaware of the definition of "thing" as "what is created."

My teachers taught me that a noun is a person or a place or a thing. Logically, then, people and things are not the same.

[alanmolstad]

I am unaware of the definition of "thing" as "what is created."

My teachers taught me that a noun is a person or a place or a thing. Logically, then, people and things are not the same.

"For by him were all THINGS created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all THINGS were created by him, and for him. (Colossians 1:16)

What invisible "things" in heaven were created for Him?.....the answer is - " thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers"

In other words....the "things" are the angels....they are invisible to our eyes, and live in heaven to serve the Lord.

[alanmolstad]

(so, I hate to be the guy to break the news to you but, you are a thing)

[dberrie2000]

I'm referring to your post--which labeled angels as "things":

Again--is this Angel a "thing"?

Genesis 48:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a mul***ude in the midst of the earth.

You do realize that is a reference to Christ?


The cl***ic biblical use of the term, to be describing a created heavenly creature (both the good angels, and the bad angels) are created things...
They are "creatures"...
They are things that came into being by the creative work of God.

Alan--if angels are things that are made--are you claiming Christ is a thing that was made? Again--this reference to "Angel"--is Christ Himself:

Genesis 48:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a mul***ude in the midst of the earth.


The Bible tells us that it was Jesus Christ that made "all things"...and that without him nothing was made that was ever made.

The Bible testifies that spirits were Fathered by God the Father:

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

And they His offspring:

Acts 17:29---King James Version (KJV)
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.


Notice the Bible tells us that Christ made "all things"
It does not say that Christ made all "other" things...

The scriptures state that Christ created all things that was made:
John 1:1-3---King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Obviously--there were creations that were not made by Christ--and spirits were one of those:

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Here Christ concedes that He was not the Father of spirits--but even Himself was Fathered by God the Father--and He shared the same Father as mankind.

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Alan--Paul designated the "one God" as God the Father--and the "one Lord" as Jesus Christ:

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

The scriptures testify that God the Father is the Father of all spirits--not Jesus Christ. Christ conceded that even His spirit was Fathered by God the Father--and He shared the same Father with mankind, in that respect.

[alanmolstad]

Im say that angels are created.
Im saying I am a thing.
Im saying all that is made is a thing and a creation of god.

And Im saying god is not a thing.
God created ALL things..both the things in heaven AND the things in the universe.

ALL THINGS!

[dberrie2000]

Im say that angels are created.

Then you are saying Christ was created:

Genesis 48:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a mul***ude in the midst of the earth.

[alanmolstad]

Then you are saying Christ was created:

Genesis 48:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a mul***ude in the midst of the earth.

The body of Christ was created...

The person of Christ is eternal and had no beginning for he is the Lord God Almighty.

But the Body of Christ was formed inside the womb of his mother Mary.

This is why we say that Jesus has 2 natures.
He is both everlasting God almighty, and 100% human.
Not half god and half man, but fully God and fully man...

[alanmolstad]

So this is why the Bible tells us that Jesus made "All things"...
All things in heaven and on earth....both the visible and the invisible....

For he is the lord God Almighty!.....Amen!

[dberrie2000]

So this is why the Bible tells us that Jesus made "All things"...
All things in heaven and on earth....both the visible and the invisible....

For he is the lord God Almighty!.....Amen!

That does not touch the problem with your statement that angels are created beings--and the scriptural reference referring to Christ as an Angel, IE--


Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post---Im say that angels are created.

Genesis 48:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a mul***ude in the midst of the earth.

[alanmolstad]

That does not touch the problem with your statement that angels are created beings--and the scriptural reference referring to Christ as an Angel, IE--



Genesis 48:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a mul***ude in the midst of the earth.
and so it works out like this then...
Angels are creating things...just like we are..
Angels are sent to carry out the commands of the lord...
and this is why from time to time angels do save people from all kinds of evil things that are talked about in the Bible...the story of LOT is one such story where we read about angels being sent to a city and where they do save people that were about to be harmed...
There is also the story of when Peter was in jail, and an angel came and set him free and saved him.

So while its not a common event in the Bible, we yet do see a few accounts of angels being sent to save people and set them free and even helping them get dressed...
There is even an account of angels appearing to minister to Christ once when he was in need of ***istance.

But we need to always remember that angels are just 'things"...like you and I are just "things" too..

we are creatures, and He is our Creator!


AMEN!!!!!!!

[Christian]

Yes they do--here they are:

Boyd K. Packer
Elder L. Tom Perry
Elder Russell M. Nelson
Elder Dallin H. Oaks
Elder M. Russell Ballard
Elder Richard G. Scott
Elder Robert D. Hales
Elder Jeffrey R. Holland
Elder David A. Bednar
Elder Quentin L. Cook
Elder D. Todd Christofferson
Elder Neil L. Andersen

And WHERE did joey smith's (or later the apostate brigham young's) relgion get any authority FROM GOD for any of these so-called 'elders' to represent HIM?

From ollie cowdery and joey smith going out into the woods and 'playing religion,' 'baptizing' and 'ordaining' each other into an imaginary church? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Christian]

The Prophets and apostles have received their authority the same way the ancients received it, by the laying on of hands.
Joseph and Oliver didn't play religion, they did as John the Baptist instructed after he bestowed the priesthood of Aaron on them and baptized each other followed by ordaining each other to the priesthood. This was under the direction of God and Christ.

Please show us CHAPTER AND VERSE IN THE BIBLE where ANY priest of Aaron was ordained by the laying on of hands.

Please READ Exodus 29 (ALL of it)

THAT is how Aaron and his seed were to be ordained. A 7 day ceremony with hands laid on oxen, sheep, and goats when they were to be sacrificed on the alter, BUT NOT ONE HAND LAID ON AARON.

Your cult has lied to you.

And joey and oliver went into the woods to play religion. They 'ordained' each other before being 'baptized' to have their sins forgiven. According to your d&c such 'ordinations' would NOT be from God, dirty sinful men 'ordaining' each other. . .

THEN they 'baptized' each other, again violating your d&c.

I guess YOUR god doesn't follow his own rules. . .

[dberrie2000]

And WHERE did joey smith's (or later the apostate brigham young's) relgion get any authority FROM GOD for any of these so-called 'elders' to represent HIM?

From ollie cowdery and joey smith going out into the woods and 'playing religion,' 'baptizing' and 'ordaining' each other into an imaginary church? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

D&C 110:

1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.
6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.
7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.
8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.
9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.
10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.
11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi—testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come—
15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse—
16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.

[dberrie2000]

and so it works out like this then...
Angels are creating things...just like we are..
Angels are sent to carry out the commands of the lord...
and this is why from time to time angels do save people from all kinds of evil things that are talked about in the Bible...the story of LOT is one such story where we read about angels being sent to a city and where they do save people that were about to be harmed...
There is also the story of when Peter was in jail, and an angel came and set him free and saved him.

So while its not a common event in the Bible, we yet do see a few accounts of angels being sent to save people and set them free and even helping them get dressed...
There is even an account of angels appearing to minister to Christ once when he was in need of ***istance.

But we need to always remember that angels are just 'things"...like you and I are just "things" too..

we are creatures, and He is our Creator!

AMEN!!!!!!!

Then you believe Jesus Christ is a "thing" like you and I are?

Again--the verse in Genesis is a reference to Christ:

Genesis 48:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a mul***ude in the midst of the earth.



Matthew Poole's Commentary
The Angel; not surely a created angel, but Christ Jesus, who is called an Angel, Exodus 23:20, and the Angel of the covenant, Malachi 3:1, who was the conductor of the Israelites in the wilderness, as plainly appears by comparing of Exodus 23:20,21, with 1 Corinthians 10:4,9. Add hereunto, that this Angel is called Jacob’s Redeemer, which is the ***le appropriated by God to himself, Isaiah 43:14 47:4, and that from all evil, and therefore from sin, from which no created angel can deliver us, but Christ only, Matthew 1:21; and that Jacob worshippeth and prayeth to this Angel no less than to God for the blessing, and that without any note of distinction, the word bless being in the singular number, and equally relating to God and to the Angel; and that the Angel to whom he here ascribes his deliverances from all evil, must in all reason be the same to whom he prayed for these very deliverances which he here commemorates, and that was no other than the very God of Abraham, as is evident from Genesis 28:15,20,21 32:9-11 35:3.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads,.... Ephraim and Man***eh, now about twenty years old or upwards: this is not to be understood of a created angel he wishes to be their guardian, but of an eternal one, the Son of God, the Angel of God's presence, the Angel of the covenant; ...