WHERE DOES GOD SAY (or did joe smith just make it up?)

[Christian]

That there had to be 'alive, mortal 'apostles' in every generation of His church? (The most importan part of that foundation is the cornerstone, Jesus Christ. . .HE is in heaven. . .so is the rest of His REAL foundation).
That there must be 'priesthood authority' beyond what EVERY SINGLE CHRISTIAN HAS to speak or act for God?
That there are many REAL GODS EXTANT anywhere other than the ONE GOD of the Bible?

Of course the God of the Bible has NEVER said any of those things.

Smith just made those things up.

Let's see any mormons show BIBLICAL evidence otherwise!

Betcha can't.

[Christian]

cog posted:

First things first, it really doesn't matter what any of us say because you will try to dismiss it anyway. You aren't open minded to the things of God. I believe in letting the scriptures speak but I don't believe in Bible bashing. Contention is of the devil and that's your only intent. There was an old woman who sat in on a lesson with my companion and I and an investigator. Her sole purpose was to Bible bash and persuade him through argument that we were wrong. The Holy Ghost moved me to speak to her in a way I've never spoken to anyone prior to that. Through the Spirit of God, I informed her that she wasn't there for Christ at all, she was there for her selfish pride and that her only desire was to cause contention and that those who act accordingly are of the devil. She didn't take it too well but it was from the Spirit so she was offended by God, not me.

Is that the end of your arrogant and dishonest rant? NOW may we get down to the issues at hand?

Your nastiness and pretense of being able to read my mind and pretend to speak for me shows only that YOu have the contentious spirit you are posting about. I don't 'Bible Bash' at all, but I DO correct error and false doctrine. Paul told Timothy to do that:

2 Tim 4:2-5
2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.
NKJV

Joe smith taught fables, fictious stories he made up and pretended came from God. No 'contention.' Simply TRUTH.

But you may arrogantly attack me if you think it makes you look better, I suppose.

I'll do as per Paul's instructions. YOU may follow whomever you wish.

Paul teaches that the church is built upon prophets and apostles. To say we don't need them is to deny God and His messengers.

We CHRISTIANS have never once said we don't need them; you made that fib up on your own.

Of course we HAVE their words IN THE BIBLE. The apostle Paul said:
2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
NKJV

He NEVER ONCE said that new 'apostles' should exist in every generation. He said they were the FOUNDATION, the BEGINNING, with JESUS CHRIST as the chief cornerstone, THE MAIN PART OF THE FOUNDATION.

IF you pretend that new 'apostles' MUST EXIST IN EVERY GENERATION OF THE CHURCH, mortal and physically here, THEN THE CHIEF CORNERSTONE of tha foundation MUST ALSO BE mortal and physically here too. OF COURSE JESUS CHRIST IS IN THE SAME LOCATION AS THE APOSTLES ARE. . .IN HEAVEN, NOT physically here.

joe smith's religons are inconsistant and contradictory. The God of the Bible is not.

Any Christian can speak to God in prayer. However, no Christian outside the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has any authority to act in God's name.

Just because joe smith SAID So does not make it become TRUE OR FROM GOD AT ALL. All you really have is a make-believe religion from joey smith and ollie cowdery going out into the woods to 'play religion,' pretending to ordain and baptize each other, even though NEITHER OF THEM HAD THE AUTHORITY FROM GOD TO DO SO. . .NEITHER were Christians.

NOTHING FROM GOD ANYWHERE says that CHRIST'S church ever lost any authority to speak or act for God. Joey smith lied to you. He made it all up.

For a Protestant to perform an ordinance is to take God's name in vain by being pretentious in the authority he claims to get from God even though it isn't.

PROVE IT. SHOW US how Jesus was so stupid He didn't know his apostles would die or that any authority in CHRIST'S church died with them.

NOT ONE SCRIPTURE IN THE WHOLE BIBLE SAYS SO. joe smith lied.

There aren't others? Guess Paul lied. He said there are gods and lords many but to us there is 1 God. He wasn't talking about false gods either.

So you think God LIED when GOD SAID through Isiah:

Isa 43:10
10 "You are My witnesses," says the Lord,
"And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.
NKJV

AND

Isa 44:6
6 "Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
'I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.
NKJV

AND

Isa 44:8
8 Do not fear, nor be afraid;
Have I not told you from that time, and declared it?
You are My witnesses.
Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one.'"
NKJV


joey smith wants you to believe there ARE other REAL GODS even though the God of the BIBLE doesn't even KNOW ANY and even though NONE existed before the God of the Bible OR AFTER HIM.

I'll believe the GOD OF THE BIBLE. You may follow whatever cult leader you wish.

BTW, Paul WAS talking about false gods, except for the ONE GOD, the One we CHRISTIANS love and serve.

The God of the Bible has said each of these things but you will never admit it regardless of people showing you from the scriptures.

No, I don't believe sun myung moon when he says Jesus came and failed because He didn't 'unify the world.'
No, I don't believe the white supremecists when they claim Jesus was caucasion.
No, I don't believe joey smith's made up religion.

And yes, TO CHANGE MY MIND, YOU NEED TO SHOW I CAME FROM GOD. So far you have not.

Question, will you ask God with an open mind if the Book of Mormon is true?

I did that with a humble heart 42 years ago or so and God said "NO" by pointing out contradictions between the bom and the Bible and between the teachings of the mormon cult and the Bible.

2. If God told you it is true, what would you do about it?

IF God were to change His mind, I would stop serving and loving Him. He would be lying.

BUT OF COURSE that could never happen.

God never asks us to 'have an open mind.' He asks us to have FAITH in the Jesus Christ of the Bible, the REAL Jesus, not the ficticious 'jesuses' of joe smith's invention, sun myung moon's invention, the white supremecists invention or any other false christs anywhere.

I'll stick with the God of the Bible.

YOU may go with the 'brother-of-satan' jesus that joey smith invented if you wish. I cannot stop you.

But please don't arrogantly rant just because I don't believe in your false gods or false christs. You demonstrate who you serve (WHO is the 'accuser of the brethren' in the Bible? SATAN is, of course).

[dberrie2000]

[COLOR=#0000FF]He NEVER ONCE said that new 'apostles' should exist in every generation. He said they were the FOUNDATION, the BEGINNING, with JESUS CHRIST as the chief cornerstone, THE MAIN PART OF THE FOUNDATION.

IF you pretend that new 'apostles' MUST EXIST IN EVERY GENERATION OF THE CHURCH, mortal and physically here, THEN THE CHIEF CORNERSTONE of tha foundation MUST ALSO BE mortal and physically here too.

Just a note here, Christian.

When Paul made that comment in Ephesians 2:20--Christ was not mortal--but the apostles were. And neither was Christ still serving His mortal ministry here on earth--but was already exalted into heaven.

Mortal apostles still remained on earth--and formed the foundation of Christ's church.

When did God change?

[dberrie2000]

I guess the scriptures should read "God is [sometimes] the same yesterday, today, and forever."
I just wonder how other Christians come to the conclusion that the keys of the priesthood are active if the apostles were killed off without bestowing all of the keys of the kingdom to anyone.

I wonder also. And I have not had anyone answer my question--what is anyone's evidence that this was not a reference to the Melchizedek priesthood?

Revelation 1:5-6---King James Version (KJV)
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

"Kings" and "priests" are the very descriptive terms used to denote both Christ and Melchizedek.

[Christian]

Just a note here, Christian.

When Paul made that comment in Ephesians 2:20--Christ was not mortal--but the apostles were. And neither was Christ still serving His mortal ministry here on earth--but was already exalted into heaven.

Mortal apostles still remained on earth--and formed the foundation of Christ's church.

When did God change?

God Himself never changed. He was never a man who became 'exalted' and BECAME A GOD. GOD (the REAL One) was God from the beginning. Joey smith's invented god didn't exist in reality.

So IF the apostles (foundation) and cornerstone (Jesus) are what the church is made of, and Jesus is NO LONGER here on earth, why would you ***UME (except that joey smith said so) that the Apostles must be replaced each generation? WHERE DOES THE SCRIPTURE SAY ANY SUCH THING?

Why would Jesus build His church on a foundation that he KNEW would die, if He didn't make provisions (SCRIPTURE) available to continue them on, just as he made SCRIPTURE available to continue the prophets on.

And IF your religion were headed by a REAL prophet, why can't any of them REALLY prophesy? They haven't been able to do so for over 75 years now. . .as you know.

[Christian]

cog posted:

I guess the scriptures should read "God is [sometimes] the same yesterday, today, and forever."

You must be referring to YOUR god that was supposedly once a man (yesterday) but got PROMOTED (exalted) into becoming a god (today), huh?

Naah, My GOD is the same yesterday, today and forever. How he deals with MANKIND sometimes changes (when was the last time YOU made a sin offering of a ram, lamb, or turtledove??).

I just wonder how other Christians come to the conclusion that the keys of the priesthood are active if the apostles were killed off without bestowing all of the keys of the kingdom to anyone.

You must be referring to the 'priesthood' and 'keys' that joey smith redefined.

Of course NOBODY OTHER THAN JESUS CHRIST was ever a Melchizedek priest (except of course for the king of Salem himself).

AND of course NONE of the Apostles were Aaronic priests (Jesus Himself would not have qualified. . .wrong tribe)

joey smith INVENED his 'keys of his priesthood' and the trash that goes with it.

Jesus was MUCH SMARTER than some dolt that would set up a religion that couldn't/wouldn't reproduce itself.

But joey smith didn't know that.

[Christian]

berry posted:

I wonder also. And I have not had anyone answer my question--what is anyone's evidence that this was not a reference to the Melchizedek priesthood?

Revelation 1:5-6---King James Version (KJV)
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

"Kings" and "priests" are the very descriptive terms used to denote both Christ and Melchizedek.

COMPLETE SPECULATION from you. Of course God DID tell us of ALL CHRISTIANS EVERYWHERE:

1 Peter 2:7-10
Therefore, to you who believe, (That would be EVERY CHRISTIAN EVERYWHERE)
He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,
"The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,"
8 and
"A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense."
They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.
9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.
NKJV


Kinda ****s a hole in your WHOLE THEORY. NOT ONE WORD about Melchizedek, btw. . .:rolleyes:

[Phoenix]

WHERE DOES GOD SAY...

"Hath God said.....?"

[John T]

cog posted:

First things first, it really doesn't matter what any of us say because you will try to dismiss it anyway. You aren't open minded to the things of God. I believe in letting the scriptures speak but I don't believe in Bible bashing. Contention is of the devil and that's your only intent. There was an old woman who sat in on a lesson with my companion and I and an investigator. Her sole purpose was to Bible bash and persuade him through argument that we were wrong. The Holy Ghost moved me to speak to her in a way I've never spoken to anyone prior to that. Through the Spirit of God, I informed her that she wasn't there for Christ at all, she was there for her selfish pride and that her only desire was to cause contention and that those who act accordingly are of the devil. She didn't take it too well but it was from the Spirit so she was offended by God, not me.

Is that the end of your arrogant and dishonest rant? NOW may we get down to the issues at hand?

Your nastiness and pretense of being able to read my mind and pretend to speak for me shows only that YOu have the contentious spirit you are posting about. I don't 'Bible Bash' at all, but I DO correct error and false doctrine. Paul told Timothy to do that:

2 Tim 4:2-5
2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.
NKJV
<SNIP>

Could you please use the quote function (comic strip style dialog box) ****on on the top right?

It makes it easier to differentiate things. Thanks

[Christian]

"Hath God said.....?"

In other words, God DIDN'T say anything to joey smith.

[Christian]

John posted:


Originally Posted by Christiancog posted:

First things first, it really doesn't matter what any of us say because you will try to dismiss it anyway. You aren't open minded to the things of God. I believe in letting the scriptures speak but I don't believe in Bible bashing. Contention is of the devil and that's your only intent. There was an old woman who sat in on a lesson with my companion and I and an investigator. Her sole purpose was to Bible bash and persuade him through argument that we were wrong. The Holy Ghost moved me to speak to her in a way I've never spoken to anyone prior to that. Through the Spirit of God, I informed her that she wasn't there for Christ at all, she was there for her selfish pride and that her only desire was to cause contention and that those who act accordingly are of the devil. She didn't take it too well but it was from the Spirit so she was offended by God, not me.

Is that the end of your arrogant and dishonest rant? NOW may we get down to the issues at hand?

Your nastiness and pretense of being able to read my mind and pretend to speak for me shows only that YOu have the contentious spirit you are posting about. I don't 'Bible Bash' at all, but I DO correct error and false doctrine. Paul told Timothy to do that:

2 Tim 4:2-5
2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.
NKJV



Could you please use the quote function (comic strip style dialog box) ****on on the top right?

It makes it easier to differentiate things. Thanks

Let's see now. . .I tried it and nothing happened. I put stuff in
quotes myself, sometimes I EVEN USE

TWO levels of quotes myself. I put the Bible verses in BRICK, Commentaries in THIS COLOR, Leave YOUR stuff in black, and myself either in BLUE or Green, whichever I decide that day.

Pretty straightforward stuff imho. But no matter WHAT I do, someone complains. I'm simply including enough from previous posts to try to give CONTEXT to the conversation.

HOW DO YOU USE that 'multiquote' function? I honestly don't know. If you tell me how to use it, I will likely try. :)

[Christian]

You don't know how to work the quotations function and you expect us to believe you know the Bible?

Let's see now. . .the quotes function of THIS PARTICULAR SOFTWARE PROGRAM is HOW old and HAS WHAT RELATIONSHIP to the contents of the Bible?

I have studied the Bible for over 50 years.

I have studied COMPUTERS for only about 35 years (give-or-take)

Personally I don't care if you believe I know the Bible or not.

You OBVIOUSLY cannot show joey smith's religion is a genuine 'restoration' of anything at all lost, destroyed, or removed from the earth by God from CHRIST'S ORIGINAL CHURCH or that joey smith's new religion isn't completely man-made at all.

AND THAT is what is important.

Your lack of normal reasoning skills (comparing such not-comparable things as understanding software vs knowing the Bible) is underwhelmind imho.

[Christian]

Just a note here, Christian.

When Paul made that comment in Ephesians 2:20--Christ was not mortal--but the apostles were. And neither was Christ still serving His mortal ministry here on earth--but was already exalted into heaven.

Mortal apostles still remained on earth--and formed the foundation of Christ's church.

When did God change?

GOD didn't change, but JESUS CHRIST was part of the SAME LIST AS THE APOSTLES WERE, IN THE SAME CONTEXT.

So the error is NOT God's, but is in YOUR UNDERSTANDING (and in joey smith's manmade religion).

[Christian]

cog posted:


Originally Posted by ChristianLet's see now. . .the quotes function of THIS PARTICULAR SOFTWARE PROGRAM is HOW old and HAS WHAT RELATIONSHIP to the contents of the Bible?

I have studied the Bible for over 50 years.

I have studied COMPUTERS for only about 35 years (give-or-take)

Personally I don't care if you believe I know the Bible or not.

You OBVIOUSLY cannot show joey smith's religion is a genuine 'restoration' of anything at all lost, destroyed, or removed from the earth by God from CHRIST'S ORIGINAL CHURCH or that joey smith's new religion isn't completely man-made at all.

AND THAT is what is important.

Your lack of normal reasoning skills (comparing such not-comparable things as understanding software vs knowing the Bible) is underwhelmind imho.


Nice logic. We shouldn't expect you to know these functions because they're old yet we are somehow supposed to believe that you know the Bible because it's old? OK... I don't care if you've studied it for 500 years, that doesn't mean you are right in your beliefs. Practice makes perfect but the wrong practice makes a lifetime of error.

Matt 7:7-11
8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!
NKJV

Let's see now. . .I ask and I receive. DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE GOD LIES?

All of us LDS have shown that the church is true, you just refuse to accept anything we give. You ask for Bible verses, we give them, and you cry "out of context" just because we're Mormons.

Does mormonism teach its adherents to LIE like that? No, your religion has NEVER ONCE shown that your church is true. ALL IT HAS DONE HAS MADE CLAIMS it has never been able to support from the WORD OF GOD, the BIBLE..
I have asked for SCRIPTURE THAT DEMONSTRATES THAT YOUR RELIGION IS TRUE. The p***ages you and your friends have given HAVE NOT DONE THAT AT ALL.

They have NOT SHOWN ONE SINGLE 'RESORATION' joe smith ever made, let alone that CHRIST was stupid enough to build a church that would not replicate itself forever, OR that anything was ever 'lost,' 'removed from the earth' or 'destroyed' from CHRIST'S ORIGINAL CHURCH that needed such a made-up 'restoration.'

ALL I have gotten was bogus claims that it has failed to support by anything more than ***UMPTIONS or SPECULATIONS or ADMISSIONS THAT YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND.

Common sense would tell you why I made the comparison. If you can't understand something as simple as these functions there's no way we should believe you know the Bible.

You have PROVEN IN YOURSELF that 'common sense' in NOT so 'common.' You made no such connection.

I have studied the Bible for over 50 years. GOD grants understanding to those of us who have spiritual discernment, but not to 'natural man' such as mormons and other NON-CHRISTIANS (1 cor 14:2).

I have NEVER studied the software program this forum uses.

WHY would you blindly '***ume' that I should be familiar with the software just because I am VERY familiar with the Bible.

Sorry, but you don't track well, imho.

[Phoenix]

In other words, God DIDN'T say anything to joey smith.

No, "Hath God said?" is what the devil would ask.

[Christian]

No, "Hath God said?" is what the devil would ask.

Are you trying to tell us that mormons believe that you should NEVER QUESTION your religious leaders OR EXAMINE to see if their religion is true?

It figures. . .

[Phoenix]

Are you trying to tell us that mormons believe that you should NEVER QUESTION your religious leaders OR EXAMINE to see if their religion is true?

No. I was just noting the irony in your asking that question, because some internet anti-mormons accuse the mormons of asking that same question. the implication is 'that's what satan said to adam and eve in the garden to tempt them to eat the forbidden fruit,' so if anyone asks whether God said something, it means they are being like satan.'

and you asked that question, so you now get a taste of what your cult's been dishing out.

pretty ironic, don't you think?

[Christian]

phoenix posted:

No. I was just noting the irony in your asking that question, because some internet anti-mormons accuse the mormons of asking that same question.


Perhaps that is because ALL CHRISTIANS are 'anti-mormon, anti-islam, anti-white supremecist, anti-every other kind of cult.

the implication is 'that's what satan said to adam and eve in the garden to tempt them to eat the forbidden fruit,' so if anyone asks whether God said something, it means they are being like satan.'

EXCEPT your 'interpertashun' of that is wrong. GOD COMMANDED OF CHRISTIANS:

1 Thess 5:19-22
19 Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not despise prophecies. 21 Test all things; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.
NKJV


We Christians DO that. We TEST the spirits, using as the 'measuring stick' THE WORD OF GOD, THE BIBLE.

Your cult FAILS BADLY when measured by that measure from GOD.

and you asked that question, so you now get a taste of what your cult's been dishing out.

pretty ironic, don't you think?

I get a lot of junk like that from cultists on the net. You seem to be no exception.

And btw, when did HISTORICAL CHRISTIANITY become a 'cult' to you?

[Phoenix]

ALL CHRISTIANS are 'anti-mormon, anti-islam, anti-white supremecist, anti-every other kind of cult.
i don't think that is a true statement.

jan shipps is far more of an expert on mormonism than you are. she is widely recognized as one of the world's foremost non-lds experts on it. she has written extensively about lds people, lds doctrines, lds culture. she is a methodist. she is a christian. i don't know of anyone who brands her 'anti-mormon.'

[Christian]

[quote] Originally Posted by Christi****L CHRISTIANS are 'anti-mormon, anti-islam, anti-white supremecist, anti-every other kind of cult.


i don't think that is a true statement.

That figures. So are you PRO-mormon, PRO islam, PRO white supremecist and PRO every other kind of cult?

jan shipps is far more of an expert on mormonism than you are. she is widely recognized as one of the world's foremost non-lds experts on it. she has written extensively about lds people, lds doctrines, lds culture.

So have many others, from Jerald & Sandra Tanner on down. So WHO SAYS she is more or less of an expert on mormonism than I am?

she is a methodist. she is a christian.


IS she a Christian? Did YOU read her heart? Are YOU God?

Oh yes, you don't discern well. . .YOU likely think MORMONS and ISLAM, and white supremecists are all 'Christians. . ."

i don't know of anyone who brands her 'anti-mormon.'

Then she
doesn't know mormonism
or
doesn't know CHRISTIANITY,
or
doesn't have anything of substance to say

So PROVE that she is a CHRISTIAN. THAT should be your 'first step.' You cannot demonstrate me to be wrong if you cannot do that.
and
THAT IS JUST FOR STARTERS!

THEN explain the wikipedia 'thingy' about her. . .



This article needs additional citations for verification (http://www.waltermartin.com/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability). Please help improve this article (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?***le=Jan_Shipps&action=edit) by adding citations to reliable sources (http://www.waltermartin.com/wiki/Help:Introduction_to_referencing/1). Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (February 2011)





http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/99/Question_book-new.svg/50px-Question_book-new.svg.png (http://www.waltermartin.com/wiki/File:Question_book-new.svg)

This article relies too much on references (http://www.waltermartin.com/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability) to primary sources (http://www.waltermartin.com/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research#Primary.2C_secondar y_and_tertiary_sources). Please improve this article by adding secondary or tertiary sources (http://www.waltermartin.com/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research#Primary.2C_secondar y_and_tertiary_sources). (April 2015)





http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b4/Ambox_important.svg/40px-Ambox_important.svg.png

The topic of this article may not meet Wikipedia's general notability guideline (http://www.waltermartin.com/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability). Please help to establish notability by adding reliable, secondary sources (http://www.waltermartin.com/wiki/Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources) about the topic. If notability cannot be established, the article is likely to be merged (http://www.waltermartin.com/wiki/Wikipedia:Merging), redirected (http://www.waltermartin.com/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirect), or deleted (http://www.waltermartin.com/wiki/Wikipedia:Deletion_policy).





The REALITY about your claim is that you REALLY DON'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT HER AT ALL. . .:rolleyes:

[Phoenix]

So are you PRO-mormon,
Yes.


PRO islam
I don't publicly rant for OR against it, so I'd call myself "neither."


PRO white supremecist
I am against them and what they stand for--and have occasionally publicly said so--so "anti" would be the best term.


and PRO every other kind of cult?
Certainly not EVERY other kind of cult. For example, I am not pro-antiMormonism. I publicly criticize some of the things that cult is doing.


So have many others, from Jerald & Sandra Tanner on down.
Yes, but the untrue part of your statement that we are discussing is your claim that ALL CHRISTIANS ARE ANTI-MORMON. I will concede that the Tanners are Christians, and that they are anti-Mormon, but that doesn't prove your claim. You need to prove that ALL Christians--not just two or 10 or 1000--are anti-Mormon. If I show you that there is one Christian in the world who isn't anti-Mormon, then I have refuted your claim. Do you understand that?


So WHO SAYS she is more or less of an expert on mormonism than I am?
Probably everyone who is sufficiently familiar with the research she and you have done on the subject.


IS she a Christian? Did YOU read her heart? Are YOU God?
So you are saying that we shouldn't believe ANYONE who claims to be a Christian, unless we are heart-readers, or we are God? Well, if that is your position, I'd better not catch you referring to Peter, or Paul, or Matthew Mark Luke or John or Walter Martin, as Christians. Because you are only allowed to claim that a person is/was a Christian, if you are God, apparently.


Oh yes, you don't discern well. . .YOU likely think MORMONS and ISLAM, and white supremecists are all 'Christians. . ."
No, that is false. I don't think that Muslims are Christians. As for white supremecists, a majority of them have historically been Baptists. Are you saying that Baptists aren't Christians?

i don't know of anyone who brands her 'anti-mormon.'

Then she doesn't know mormonism
So you're unfamiliar with the books she has written about it, that would prove you wrong?

http://www.amazon.com/Mormonism-The-Story-Religious-Tradition/dp/0252014170

I know that SHE has published at least one book about it. I am unaware of any that you have published about it. She was also the President of he Mormon History ***ociation for 2 years. I don't think you have been.


or doesn't know CHRISTIANITY,
I bet she has studied it longer and more in-depth than you have. Are you a professor of religious studies at a major university?


or doesn't have anything of substance to say
as opposed to you? More people are willing to read her book than are willing to read yours, I bet.

http://jah.oxfordjournals.org/content/94/2/517.short

is a link to a page in the Journal of American History about Jan Shipps and the impact her research has had.


So PROVE that she is a CHRISTIAN. THAT should be your 'first step.' You cannot demonstrate me to be wrong if you cannot do that.
There is more evidence that she is a Christian, than there is that you are one. Is that good enough?

If you can't prove that you are a Christian, then shouldn't that be higher on your priority list than attacking a Methodist's claim to be a Christian?