Galatians5:19-21

[dberrie2000]

There has been those here on this forum that argue works and salvation are not related.

Could anyone explain why Paul would connect works and salvation--if that were true?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Comments?

[Phoenix]

There has been those here on this forum that argue works and salvation are not related.

Could anyone explain why Paul would connect works and salvation--if that were true?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Comments?

I think you may have a good point: If doing good (obeying God) has no connection, or does not lead to, making salvific grace efficacious for us, then doing BAD works (disobeying God) has no connection to NOT being saved.

Is that the point you are making?

[dberrie2000]

I think you may have a good point: If doing good (obeying God) has no connection, or does not lead to, making salvific grace efficacious for us, then doing BAD works (disobeying God) has no connection to NOT being saved.

Is that the point you are making?

Yup--if disobeying God computes to God denying eternal life to man--then obedience must be required for salvation to occur. IE--

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

1 Peter 4:16-17---King James Version (KJV)
16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

[dberrie2000]

Yup--if disobeying God computes to God denying eternal life to man--then obedience must be required for salvation to occur. IE--

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

1 Peter 4:16-17---King James Version (KJV)
16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?


That's one of the ways I read the scriptures to gain a better understanding, by reading them and then also know what the exact opposite means. It seems rather simple but it puts things into perspective.

Hi Child:---The scriptures connects obedience to Christ with His grace unto salvation--that defies faith alone theology, without any opposites.

Although the Bible is very friendly to LDS theology--something that even the LDS have yet to discover, IMO.

[Saxon]

As usual you ignore Ephesians 2:8 to 10. Grace; Gift and Not Of Works. works are required after salvation.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

[dberrie2000]

Qriginally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post

Yup--if disobeying God computes to God denying eternal life to man--then obedience must be required for salvation to occur. IE--

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

1 Peter 4:16-17---King James Version (KJV)
16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?


Grace; Gift and Not Of Works. works are required after salvation.

I agree. And if the Bible is true--works are required to obtain the grace unto life:

Acts 2:38--King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

So--could you explain for us what it is about water baptism you don't consider a work--or what about the remission of fins you don't consider God's salvational grace?

[Berean]

I agree. And if the Bible is true--works are required to obtain the grace unto life:

Acts 2:38--King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

So--could you explain for us what it is about water baptism you don't consider a work--or what about the remission of fins you don't consider God's salvational grace?

Saxon, notice that the troll removes your comments from the quote, which creates the essence of your argument, and which clearly proves his argument wrong, only to restate his false argument and then claim a victory.

I think Mormons are addicted to the dopamine rush they probably get when they do this, thinking it's angel wings tickling their ears saying.. they are wrong... we are better than them.... we are winning!

But this is so obviously dishonest, that it's down right disgusting. How can people live with themselves knowing very well they are intentionally trying to harm other people? The bible says teachers are more responsible, because they teach, and held more accountable if they lead anyone astray. How is this not intentionally seeking to lead others astray by perpetrating these lies when I know for a fact this particular person clearly understands what Christianity believes and teaches concerning these verse? Why not attempt instead to show WHY these verses should be understood in the light of Mormon "scriptuers" (and I use that term loosely) using Mormon scriptures? Is it because Mormon "scriptures" are easily proven to contradict themselves and prove that the Mormon religion is false? Why sure. That's why they haggle with us over the Bible but ignore entirely their own "scriptures."

How is this not sinful? Mormon "scriptures" insist one must not defend the faith in a contentious manner. Aren't Mormons all about repentance and/or being good people? Who could possibly think perpetuating a lie is somehow doing good?

Mormons get away with this because not all forums believe in free speech. Typically when people complain about this publicly we get reported, our posts are deleted and/or we get banned. Meanwhile the troll lives to troll again.

[alanmolstad]

there is a rule that we should always call each other by the stated name...

[Berean]

there is a rule that we should always call each other by the stated name...

This is the second time you've PUBLICLY scolded me, and I resent that. I ignored you the first time, please don't do this again. If you're a mod, then you should be reprimanding people PRIVATELY rather than lording it over them publicly. Pride is our worst enemy.

Besides, I was addressing Saxon.

Mocking someone's ideas or beliefs is baiting, and is also against the rules, but I don't see anyone complaining PUBLICLY about trolls like DBerrie and others who clearly break this rule in every one of their posts. In fact, why Christian forums allow a petulant **** like DBerrie to continuously mock and troll Christians on your forums is beyond me. These trolls don't come to my Forum (christianfreespeechministries.com) because we tell them up front they won't get away with it there, and since they can get away with it here and on CARM, there's no reason to go where they can't. That's why they are all here and on CARM.

These trolls never discuss Mormon doctrines in the Mormon section, they're only here because they have been given a platform from which to mock and belittle Christianity, the Bible and Christians in general. I wish forum admins would discipline these ****s instead of banning people for outing them, and stop coddling and enabling these unbelievers to remain in their sin. 2 Tim 4:1-5 isn't just a suggestion, it's a command.

1 (http://biblehub.com/2_timothy/4-1.htm)I command you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at his appearing and his Kingdom: 2 (http://biblehub.com/2_timothy/4-2.htm)preach the word; be urgent in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with all patience and teaching. 3 (http://biblehub.com/2_timothy/4-3.htm)For the time will come when they will not listen to the sound doctrine, but, having itching ears, will heap up for themselves teachers after their own lusts; 4 (http://biblehub.com/2_timothy/4-4.htm)and will turn away their ears from the truth, and turn aside to fables. 5 (http://biblehub.com/2_timothy/4-5.htm)But you be sober in all things, suffer hardship, do the work of an evangelist, and fulfill your ministry.

[alanmolstad]

This is the second time ......Try not to make it a 3rd...

[Berean]

Try not to make it a 3rd...

Nonsense.

Now back to your mom's basement.

[Saxon]

Saxon, notice that the troll removes your comments from the quote, which creates the essence of your argument, and which clearly proves his argument wrong, only to restate his false argument and then claim a victory.

I think Mormons are addicted to the dopamine rush they probably get when they do this, thinking it's angel wings tickling their ears saying.. they are wrong... we are better than them.... we are winning!

But this is so obviously dishonest, that it's down right disgusting. How can people live with themselves knowing very well they are intentionally trying to harm other people? The bible says teachers are more responsible, because they teach, and held more accountable if they lead anyone astray. How is this not intentionally seeking to lead others astray by perpetrating these lies when I know for a fact this particular person clearly understands what Christianity believes and teaches concerning these verse? Why not attempt instead to show WHY these verses should be understood in the light of Mormon "scriptuers" (and I use that term loosely) using Mormon scriptures? Is it because Mormon "scriptures" are easily proven to contradict themselves and prove that the Mormon religion is false? Why sure. That's why they haggle with us over the Bible but ignore entirely their own "scriptures."

How is this not sinful? Mormon "scriptures" insist one must not defend the faith in a contentious manner. Aren't Mormons all about repentance and/or being good people? Who could possibly think perpetuating a lie is somehow doing good?

Mormons get away with this because not all forums believe in free speech. Typically when people complain about this publicly we get reported, our posts are deleted and/or we get banned. Meanwhile the troll lives to troll again.



Mormons in general have been given over to a reprobate mind. The first definition seems to tell it as it is.

Definition of reprobate (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/reprobate)
reprobated; reprobating
transitive verb
1: to condemn strongly as unworthy, unacceptable, or evil <reprobating the laxity of the age>
2: to foreordain to ****ation
3: to refuse to accept : reject

Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

2 Timothy 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

[Christian]

There has been those here on this forum that argue works and salvation are not related.

Could anyone explain why Paul would connect works and salvation--if that were true?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Comments?

You are flogging at ghosts, berry. NOBODY has said works and salvation are not related. We do works BECAUSE we are saved, not (like you would pretend) to 'get saved' or to 'stay saved.'

You may continue to do your 'ordinances' and follow them straight to hell. They won't keep you out. Following false prophets, false christs, and false gods won't save you, no matter HOW MUCH you think you can 'help' them by doing your 'works.'

[Berean]

Mormons in general have been given over to a reprobate mind. The first definition seems to tell it as it is.

Definition of reprobate (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/reprobate)
reprobated; reprobating
transitive verb
1: to condemn strongly as unworthy, unacceptable, or evil <reprobating the laxity of the age>
2: to foreordain to ****ation
3: to refuse to accept : reject

Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

2 Timothy 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.


Agreed.

2 Tim 3:1But know this, that in the last days, grievous times will come. 2For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3without natural affection, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, no lovers of good, 4traitors, headstrong, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God; 5holding a form of godliness, but having denied its power. Turn away from these, also. 6For some of these are people who creep into houses, and take captive gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7always learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8Even as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so do these also oppose the truth; men corrupted in mind, who concerning the faith, are rejected. 9But they will proceed no further. For their folly will be evident to all men, as theirs also came to be.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post I agree. And if the Bible is true--works are required to obtain the grace unto life:

Acts 2:38--King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

So--could you explain for us what it is about water baptism you don't consider a work--or what about the remission of fins you don't consider God's salvational grace?


Saxon, notice that the troll removes your comments from the quote, which creates the essence of your argument, and which clearly proves his argument wrong, only to restate his false argument and then claim a victory.

What do you believe is a false argument--concerning Acts2:38?

How does Acts2:38 prove my argument wrong?


But this is so obviously dishonest, that it's down right disgusting.

What do you consider dishonest about Acts2:38?


How is this not intentionally seeking to lead others astray by perpetrating these lies when I know for a fact this particular person clearly understands what Christianity believes and teaches concerning these verse?

The fact is--the faith alone deny what Acts 2:38 testifies to--repentance and water baptism--for the remission of sins.

Faith alone theology preaches a salvation through a faith without works.


Why not attempt instead to show WHY these verses should be understood in the light of Mormon "scriptuers"

The Bible is canonized scripture in the LDS church--including Acts2:38.


Is it because Mormon "scriptures" are easily proven to contradict themselves and prove that the Mormon religion is false?

What does one find in the Biblical text which defies LDS theology?

Certainly not this:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.