no need to restore the truth [Archive] - Page 2 - Walter Martin Ministries Forum

BigJulie

04-04-2017, 02:15 PM

Hey DB,

Perhaps I can ask the question a different way. Which comes first, faith or works?

Why must there be a "first"?

From the Book of Mormon:

"Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God."

From this verse:

Who perfects us? Christ.

What does he expect from us? To deny all ungodliness and to love him with all of our might, mind and strength.

What happens if we do this? He perfects us (we don't perfect ourselves--by his grace, he perfects us).

What is the result? When we see his grace in our lives, and by such, we gain a sure testimony of his grace and power."

Faith and works are intertwined like the threads of a cloth. We have faith and obey and our faith is increased. Sometimes we struggle to believe, but we obey first and then our faith is increased.

Mar 9:24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

dberrie2000

04-05-2017, 02:01 AM

Hey DB,

Perhaps I can ask the question a different way. Which comes first, faith or works?

Hi Disciple:

Faith without works is dead, so they work together in salvation. One is not independent of another in obtaining eternal life, as the scriptures show:

Matthew 25:31-46--King James Version (KJV)
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

alanmolstad

04-05-2017, 04:58 AM

disciple

04-05-2017, 05:14 AM

Hi DB,
I understand that faith without works is dead and the reasoning behind that statement is obvious, if someone talks the talk they must walk the walk.
But the truth behind "faith without works is dead" is that the unsaved cannot do works that please God only those first born again are described in the following way.
"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them" Eph. 2:10
God prepared the works, they are not on the path to salvation, they are ahead after salvation. Remember the scriptures tell us that there are none who do good and none who seek after God.

dberrie2000

04-05-2017, 05:33 AM

Christians are saved by grace though faith and not by works.

We are not saved by faith

We are not saved by works.

We are not saved by faith and works.

We are not saved by any combination of faith and works.

Thank you, Alan. I agree--the only question that remains, once we accept the fact we are saved by God's grace, is--who does God give His grace unto life to?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

dberrie2000

04-05-2017, 05:42 AM

Hi DB,

I understand that faith without works is dead and the reasoning behind that statement is obvious, if someone talks the talk they must walk the walk.

Hi Disciple:

I agree--and the reason is obvious:

1 John 1:7--King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

But the truth behind "faith without works is dead" is that the unsaved cannot do works that please God only those first born again are described in the following way.

The truth behind faith without works is dead is just what it states--faith without works is dead--and one can't be saved through a dead faith.

Colossians 3:24-25---King James Version (KJV)
24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.
25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them" Eph. 2:10
God prepared the works, they are not on the path to salvation, they are ahead after salvation.

Matthew 7:19-27--King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Remember the scriptures tell us that there are none who do good and none who seek after God.

What I remember is what the scriptures bear testimony to:

1 John 3:7--King James Version (KJV)
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

alanmolstad

04-05-2017, 05:58 AM

Thank you, Alan. I agree--the only question that remains, once we accept the fact we are saved by God's grace,.......

One again :

We are saved by Grace though faith ....

Thats how we are saved...

There is nothing else...
There is no other means...
There is no other way...

We are saved by Grace though faith

We are not saved by Grace though faith and works.

alanmolstad

04-05-2017, 06:01 AM

Now a man came to Jesus and asked what were the works that God required.

Jesus answered that there is but one work, ,,,,,he called it "thee work", meaing that there is only this one and no others...it's alone, its this one thing and nothing else.

And what was that 'work"?

To believe in Jesus!!!!!.
Thats right, the only so-called work is to put your faith in the Lord Jesus.

disciple

04-05-2017, 06:24 AM

I agree that it is grace, there is nothing we can do by our own effort that will merit anything. But being born again we are now amb***adors for Christ and have the duties and works of the one who sends us to carry out.

dberrie2000

04-05-2017, 07:07 AM

We are not saved by Grace though faith and works.

Then you believe one is saved through a dead faith?

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Alan--could you collate your statement above--with the fact Christ testified all men wil be judged in accordance with their works--after death--and that for life or ****ation?

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

dberrie2000

04-05-2017, 07:14 AM

I agree that it is grace, there is nothing we can do by our own effort that will merit anything.

Hi Disciple:

Was God giving His salvational grace of the remission of sins to those who repented and were water baptized--something that you would consider as nothing to do with our own efforts?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 10:34-35---King James Version (KJV)
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Disciple--the theology which preaches obtaining salvation independent of any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ--is the most obvious lie satan has ever pawned upon mankind.

God giving His eternal life to anyone but those who obey Him? The disobedient? Really?

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

And--may I add--vengeance to them which preach a doctrine one need not obey Christ in order to receive of His grace unto life.

disciple

04-05-2017, 09:16 AM

Hi DB,
Sorry I cannot reply with quotes but quick reply is the only way I can post.

Why and how were these people saved?
The penitent woman (Luke7:37-50 (https://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Luke%207.37-50)), the paralytic man (Matthew 9:2 (https://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Matt%209.2)),the publican (Luke 18:13-14 (https://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Luke%2018.13-14)), and the thief on the cross (Luke23:39-43 (https://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Luke%2023.39-43)) all experienced forgiveness of sins apart from baptism. For that matter, we have no record of the apostles' being baptized, yet Jesus pronounced them clean of their sins (John 15:3 (https://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/John%2015.3)--note that the Word of God, not baptism, is what cleansed them).
The Bible also gives us an example of people who were saved before being baptized. In Acts10:44-48 (https://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Acts%2010.44-48), Cornelius and those with him were converted through Peter'smessage. That they were saved before being baptized is evident from their reception of the Holy Spirit (v. 44) and the gifts of the Spirit (v. 46) before their baptism. Indeed, it is the fact that they had received the Holy Spirit(and hence were saved) that led Peter to baptize them (cf. v. 47).

dberrie2000

04-05-2017, 10:04 AM

Then you believe one is saved through a dead faith?

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Alan--could you collate your statement above--with the fact Christ testified all men will be judged in accordance with their works--after death--and that for life or ****ation?

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Hi DB,
Sorry I cannot reply with quotes but quick reply is the only way I can post.

Why and how were these people saved?

By God's grace--which was extended to them which obeyed Him--and did His works.

The penitent woman (Luke7:37-50 (https://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Luke%207.37-50)), the paralytic man (Matthew 9:2 (https://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Matt%209.2)),the publican (Luke 18:13-14 (https://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Luke%2018.13-14)), and the thief on the cross (Luke23:39-43 (https://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Luke%2023.39-43)) all experienced forgiveness of sins apart from baptism.

What is your evidence of that?

Mark 1:1-5---King James Version (KJV)
1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

What is your evidence they were not included in the above baptisms?

For that matter, we have no record of the apostles' being baptized,

There is evidence Jesus did baptized His disciples(apostles):

John 3:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

John 4:1-2---King James Version (KJV)
1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

The argument is as such:

John 3:22 states Jesus baptized--and was with His disciples when doing so.

John 3:2 states Jesus baptized not--but His disciples.

That has one of two different meanings:

1) Jesus did not baptize--only His disciples baptized.
2) Jesus did not baptize anyone but His disciples.

Since Jesus was recorded as baptizing, in John3:22--when He was with His disciples--I elect # 2 option--Jesus did not baptize anyone but His disciples.

disciple

04-05-2017, 10:28 AM

Hi DB,

I believe it is option 1, His disciples did the baptizing. In your option did Jesus baptize Judas?

dberrie2000

04-05-2017, 11:03 AM

Hi DB,

I believe it is option 1, His disciples did the baptizing. In your option did Jesus baptize Judas?

Hi Disciple:

I know--but that puts you at odds with what the scriptures teach:

John 3:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

I find, IMO--- the faith alone will deny whatever they have to in order to establish their own theology.

Matthew 15:8-9---King James Version (KJV)
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Yes, I do believe Jesus not only baptized Judas--but also chose him as one of the twelve apostles.

disciple

04-05-2017, 11:49 AM

dberrie2000

04-05-2017, 12:25 PM

Hey DB,

I'm not trying to establish my own theology, I'm engaging in discussion. I'm not trying to win, I don't hate you, I'm not trying to get you to convert.
Just a discussion.
So when Jesus baptized Judas, did Judas receive the Holy Spirit.

Hi Disciple:

I understand you don't hate me--nor do I believe you are attempting to convert me, and neither do I believe you are rude or offensive.

But you do deny the scriptures, or push them aside whenever they conflict with your theology-- and that can be easily discovered by just reading through your posts.

The Holy Ghost didn't seem to be given, as a general outpouring--until after Pentecost, in Acts2. Judas was dead by then.

disciple

04-05-2017, 12:56 PM

dberrie2000

04-05-2017, 01:11 PM

Hi DB,I really don't think I've denied any scriptures that were in the correct context.

Hi Disciple:

The catch 22 to that is---the scriptures are never in context when they defy your theology.

Why would Jesus knowingly baptize a devil, I think you are wrong.

"Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve." John 6:70-71

Well--if Jesus chose Judas as an apostle of the Lord--then why would adding baptism be a deal breaker? You certainly don't equate water baptism with salvation. Only, the scriptures do.

The scriptures indicate Jesus baptized His disciples. It does not state a few of His disciples--or all, but Judas--but, simply--His disciples. Judas was one of His disciples.

So--what is your point in all this?

BigJulie

04-05-2017, 03:38 PM

Hi DB,
I really don't think I've denied any scriptures that were in the correct context.
Why would Jesus knowingly baptize a devil, I think you are wrong.
"Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve." John 6:70-71

Oh boy, at this point, you are arguing against scripture--not against Dberrie. Correctly put, you should state "I think the scriptures' are wrong, since they do not exclude Judas as being baptized, nor chosen by Christ.

(I am trying to picture the conversation now where Christ explains to Judas why he won't baptize him like the rest. Yeah, I just can't picture it.)

dberrie2000

04-05-2017, 04:14 PM

Oh boy, at this point, you are arguing against scripture--not against Dberrie. Correctly put, you should state "I think the scriptures' are wrong, since they do not exclude Judas as being baptized, nor chosen by Christ.

(I am trying to picture the conversation now where Christ explains to Judas why he won't baptize him like the rest. Yeah, I just can't picture it.)

It's been my experience most people tailor the scriptures to fit their theology--rather than tailor their theology to fit the scriptures. And then--claim "out of context" to anything which defies their theology. It seems sometimes the better part of the Bible is "out of context" to some.

The fact is--what one finds in the Biblical NT--one will find in the LDS church--as to salvational doctrines. The LDS don't have to do the "out of context" exclusions. The Biblical doctrines fit their core salvational doctrines well.

Most which attempt to pawn the Bible as their pattern--are surprised to find they cannot defend their theology, when they run upon someone who really knows the Bible.

And, IMO-- that's the greatest threat to most LDS critics--the one who knows the Bible, and can use it effectively in their defense.

Julie--I have studied the Bible for over 30 years--and I can testify to you--the Bible fits the LDS church core salvational doctrines better than any other church, that I am aware of. The Bible is the best kept secret in the LDS church also. The LDS have not yet learned to use it in their discussions, and it is the best friend they have. Not even the Book of Mormon fits LDS doctrine as well as the Bible does.

It will take 20 years of diligent study--but that is what it takes. The Bible is one thing the critics of the church did not figure upon being used against them--and is the source they cannot deny. They can defy the Book of Mormon, or any other source--as something that is man-made--but the Bible becomes the poison they have to drink(and when it testifies against one--it becomes their poison).

I love the Bible. It has great truths which vindicate the LDS core salvational doctrines, and which glorify God.

BigJulie

04-05-2017, 04:20 PM

It's been my experience most people tailor the scriptures to fit their theology--rather than tailor their theology to fit the scriptures. And then--claim "out of context" to anything which defies their theology. It seems sometimes the better part of the Bible is "out of context" to some.

The fact is--what one finds in the Biblical NT--one will find in the LDS church--as to salvational doctrines. The LDS don't have to do the "out of context" exclusions. The Biblical doctrines fit their core salvational doctrines well.

Most which attempt to pawn the Bible as their pattern--are surprised to find they cannot defend their theology, when they run upon someone who really knows the Bible.

And, IMO-- that's the greatest threat to most LDS critics--the one who knows the Bible, and can use it effectively in their defense.

Julie--I have studied the Bible for over 30 years--and I can testify to you--the Bible fits the LDS church core salvational doctrines better than any other church, that I am aware of. The Bible is the best kept secret in the LDS church also. The LDS have not yet learned to use it in their discussions, and it is the best friend they have. Not even the Book of Mormon fits LDS doctrine as well as the Bible does.

It will take 20 years of diligent study--but that is what it takes. The Bible is one thing the critics of the church did not figure upon being used against them--and is the source they cannot deny. They can defy the Book of Mormon, or any other source--as something that is man-made--but the Bible becomes the poison they have to drink(and when it testifies against one--it becomes their poison).

I love the Bible. It has great truths which vindicate the LDS core salvational doctrines, and which glorify God.

I agree, our theology fits the Bible perfectly. Anytime I read revelation from Joseph Smith, I understand that he must have, at some point, had a grand experience with God showing the big picture to him--because of how well what he taught fits with the Bible.

I am often told I should do as the Bereans (from non-mormons) and test the scriptures. Well, when you test them, you are right, it backs our theology. I also wish people would think through their theology and thoughts as well.

Things can sound good, but fall apart the minute you start thinking about them--such as Christ excluding one of his chosen twelve from baptism.

alanmolstad

04-05-2017, 06:13 PM

BigJulie

04-05-2017, 06:16 PM

well said!:)

that is the correct answer and the best at***ude to take

Unfortunately, it is not Bibically sound doctrine. If there is no effort we can make, there is no works, and if there is no works then faith is dead and if faith is dead, there is no salvation.

Phl 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

alanmolstad

04-05-2017, 07:28 PM

who does the Bible say is actually doing the works in the next verse?

BigJulie

04-05-2017, 08:45 PM

who does the Bible say is actually doing the works in the next verse?

Phl 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

And right before it?

Phl 2:10-11 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

So, then, if all will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord--will ALL be saved? And if so, why doesn't God cause all to do good works?

dberrie2000

04-06-2017, 03:55 AM

who does the Bible say is actually doing the works in the next verse?

Is your claim that it is God being judged here--for His works?

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Or is it mankind being judged in accordance with their works?

alanmolstad

04-06-2017, 05:25 AM

Phl 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you .......

Amen!.......

Christian

04-06-2017, 06:24 AM

of course paul didn't say that. paul wouldn't have said something that was so false. he left that *** for 21st-century anti-mormons.

AND to 21st century CHRISTIANS, AND to 19th century MORMONS, of course.

disciple

04-06-2017, 06:46 AM

Hi DB,

A few comments on previous posts.

First the belief you hold that Jesus would baptize Judas,knowing he was a devil.
In our time, Baptism is a testimony that the participant has trusted in Christ as Savior and they are identifying themselves by submitting to baptism. In the time of John the Baptist baptism was for confession of sin and repentance, for those who turned from their sin and were waiting for the arrival of the Messiah. When Jesus came to John to be Baptized and John protested Jesus said,” Let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness”. Would Judas be repenting and turning from his sin? Obviously not. Would Jesus take baptism so lightly that He would baptize a devil? Jesus said He always did the things that pleased the Father, would it be pleasing to the Father for Jesus to baptize Judas?

Regarding works leading to salvation. Jesus said, “If anyone loves me he will keep My word”. Does the unsaved man love Jesus? Can any man love Jesus without the Holy Spirit? How much work plus baptism must one do to qualify for salvation? For example, consider the thief on the cross. Jesus said that he would enter paradise. But what will judgment be like for him when the books are opened? More than 99.9% of his life will be sin. His salvation will be secured by the blood of Christ, not by any amount of work.

“But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice. “For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.” Mat 9:13

dberrie2000

04-06-2017, 07:45 AM

Hi DB,

A few comments on previous posts.

First the belief you hold that Jesus would baptize Judas,knowing he was a devil.

Hi Disciple:

I accept Jesus Christ chose Judas to be an apostle--knowing what he was.

In our time, Baptism is a testimony that the participant has trusted in Christ as Savior and they are identifying themselves by submitting to baptism. In the time of John the Baptist baptism was for confession of sin and repentance, for those who turned from their sin and were waiting for the arrival of the Messiah. When Jesus came to John to be Baptized and John protested Jesus said,” Let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness”. Would Judas be repenting and turning from his sin? Obviously not. Would Jesus take baptism so lightly that He would baptize a devil? Jesus said He always did the things that pleased the Father, would it be pleasing to the Father for Jesus to baptize Judas?

I suppose the same question could be used concerning Christ choosing Judas to be an apostle of Jesus Christ, could it not?

Regarding works leading to salvation. Jesus said, “If anyone loves me he will keep My word”. Does the unsaved man love Jesus? Can any man love Jesus without the Holy Spirit? How much work plus baptism must one do to qualify for salvation? For example, consider the thief on the cross. Jesus said that he would enter paradise. But what will judgment be like for him when the books are opened? More than 99.9% of his life will be sin. His salvation will be secured by the blood of Christ, not by any amount of work.

The scriptures testify only those who walk in the Light receive of the Blood of Christ unto the remission of sins:

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Disciple--could you give us any NT scripture which states Jesus Christ extends Hos grace unto life, as a personal reception--- to the disobedient?

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

“But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice. “For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.” Mat 9:13

Those who obey Christ--receive of His grace unto life:

Hebrews 5:9--King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

I believe what most desire, is--God's grace unto life-- without their obedience.

BigJulie

04-06-2017, 07:55 AM

Amen!.......

Yes, and you must skip every other part of that to make your point. As everyone will confess God, you then make God out to either choose those who do good or those who do bad. Is this how you see him? We are puppets and those who do evil do so because of him?

disciple

04-06-2017, 08:10 AM

Hey DB you said,

<Disciple--could you give us any NT scripture which states Jesus Christ extends His grace unto life, as a personal reception--- to the disobedient?>

The following scripture is the first real obedience one can have, the unsaved do not work for God only for themselves. When one hears the Gospel and believes(faith comes by hearing, not by work) they are born again.

"that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” Romans 10:9-13

disciple

04-06-2017, 09:40 AM

Hi DB,

When someone goes to a wake, you usually see the body lying in the casket. Have you ever seen the deceased get up and greet the mourners, comb his hair or straighten his tie. No, he can't do any of those things because he's dead.
“And you He made alive, who were dead in tresp***es and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world,
But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in tresp***es, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)” Eph. 2:1,4-5

If someone is doing works before salvation, by what power are they doing these works or acts of obedience?

Christian

04-06-2017, 04:02 PM

Christian

04-06-2017, 04:04 PM

Unfortunately, it is not Bibically sound doctrine. If there is no effort we can make, there is no works, and if there is no works then faith is dead and if faith is dead, there is no salvation.

Phl 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Hey Julie, when did YOU die on the cross? WHOSE SINS HAVE YOU DIED TO PAY THE PRICE OF?

Oh, that's right. . .JESUS DID IT ALL. YOUR GOOD WORKS CAN'T SAVE YOU FROM ANYTHING.

BigJulie

04-06-2017, 05:57 PM

Hey Julie, when did YOU die on the cross? WHOSE SINS HAVE YOU DIED TO PAY THE PRICE OF?

Oh, that's right. . .JESUS DID IT ALL. YOUR GOOD WORKS CAN'T SAVE YOU FROM ANYTHING.

Clearly, we can't be saved without God's grace, but clearly, He expects something from us.

Dberrie posted this earlier in this thread:

Hebrews 5:9--King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

BigJulie

04-06-2017, 06:00 PM

They can't answer that one. . .It would contradict the lies they choose to believe.

Just waiting for Dberrie to get back as this is who he is having a discussion with.

alanmolstad

04-06-2017, 07:52 PM

Clearly, we can't be saved without God's grace, but clearly, He expects something from us.

\

The guy did ask Jesus what was needed....

http://biblehub.com/john/6-29.htm

John 6:29
28Then they inquired, “What must we do to perform the works of God?”
Jesus told them, "This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent.

So what is the only work again?

Christian

04-06-2017, 08:14 PM

Clearly, we can't be saved without God's grace, but clearly, He expects something from us.

So you think God NEEDS YOUR HELP (After all, YOU HAVE SO MUCH TO OFFER when in your SPIRITUALLY DEAD STATE) to get your sins forgiven and to save your soul from eternal hell. . .; what JESUS DID AT THE CROSS was NOT ENOUGH, huh? IS THAT what you think?

BigJulie

04-06-2017, 08:53 PM

The guy did ask Jesus what was needed....

http://biblehub.com/john/6-29.htm

John 6:29
28Then they inquired, “What must we do to perform the works of God?”
Jesus told them, "This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent.

So what is the only work again?

What is it to believe in him?

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Jhn 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

So are you ***erting that to believe in God is to NOT love him and NOT keep his commandments? Do you ***ert that to believe in him is to ignore what he states?

BigJulie

04-06-2017, 08:54 PM

So you think God NEEDS YOUR HELP (After all, YOU HAVE SO MUCH TO OFFER when in your SPIRITUALLY DEAD STATE) to get your sins forgiven and to save your soul from eternal hell. . .; what JESUS DID AT THE CROSS was NOT ENOUGH, huh? IS THAT what you think?

So you think you don't need to love him? Is that too much for you to do? Is that too much for Him to ask?-the one who died for you and me?

alanmolstad

04-06-2017, 11:57 PM

We are saved by grace though faith. ....just like the thief on the cross

alanmolstad

04-07-2017, 05:39 AM

We are saved by grace though faith. ....just like the thief on the cross

And thats the message of the Christian church here...You want to know what man can do?....look to the thief on the cross for your answer.

It's faith.......it's all about faith.

Thats all he had to offer the Lord.

disciple

04-07-2017, 06:10 AM

So you think you don't need to love him? Is that too much for you to do? Is that too much for Him to ask?-the one who died for you and me?

Don't you realize that you can't love Him without the Holy Spirit?
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control." Gal 5:22-23a

BigJulie

04-07-2017, 06:57 AM

We are saved by grace though faith. ....just like the thief on the cross

Even the thief DID something, he humbled himself and came to Christ. If it was faith alone, he would have just hung there and done nothing.

disciple

04-07-2017, 06:58 AM

Even the thief DID something, he humbled himself and came to Christ. If it was faith alone, he would have just hung there and done nothing.

Don't you have to believe before you act?

BigJulie

04-07-2017, 07:00 AM

Don't you realize that you can't love Him without the Holy Spirit?
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control." Gal 5:22-23a

And how does one get the Holy Spirit? Must one do something? The Book of Mormon teaches us that we must COME unto Christ.

So, let's get to your experience, do you find that love takes effort--to love your wife, to love your children? Even if the feeling is there, do you ever find yourself COMING to Christ in humility so that your love can be perfected? Do you feel your spirit *****ed to action when you do something wrong? Do you feel remorse and ACT as the spirit directs? Or are you a puppet that has no thoughts or choices of your own?

Christian

04-07-2017, 07:00 AM

What is it to believe in him?

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Jhn 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

So are you ***erting that to believe in God is to NOT love him and NOT keep his commandments? Do you ***ert that to believe in him is to ignore what he states?

So IS IT YOUR ***ERTION that when you are SPIRITUALLY DEAD in your sins, you can 'do good works' to help God save your soul?

That is what it sounds like you are saying.

BigJulie

04-07-2017, 07:01 AM

Don't you have to believe before you act?

Sometimes it starts with just a hope or a desire for something better.

BigJulie

04-07-2017, 07:03 AM

So IS IT YOUR ***ERTION that when you are SPIRITUALLY DEAD in your sins, you can 'do good works' to help God save your soul?

That is what it sounds like you are saying.

Christian,it would be really nice if you gave up your prejudice about what I believe and listen to what I say, or if not, just what the scriptures say.

Why are we commanded to love God with all of our heart, soul and mind if God expects nothing from us?

disciple

04-07-2017, 08:00 AM

And how does one get the Holy Spirit? Must one do something? The Book of Mormon teaches us that we must COME unto Christ.

So, let's get to your experience, do you find that love takes effort--to love your wife, to love your children? Even if the feeling is there, do you ever find yourself COMING to Christ in humility so that your love can be perfected? Do you feel your spirit *****ed to action when you do something wrong? Do you feel remorse and ACT as the spirit directs? Or are you a puppet that has no thoughts or choices of your own?

Hi Julie
You receive the Holy Spirit when you are born again, you are born again when you hear the Gospel, believe it is truth, confess and forsake your sin and trust that Jesus is willing and able to redeem you. Thank about John 15:5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing." One can't "do" anything without first being in the vine.

disciple

04-07-2017, 08:05 AM

Why are we commanded to love God with all of our heart, soul and mind if God expects nothing from us?

Hi again Julie,
What an overwhelming ***ignment, very hard to do.
In our own strength, none of us can live up to this obligation, but the Lord has provided a way for Christians to do the impossible. The indwelling Holy Spirit works to produce His fruit in us, and first on the list is love (Galatians 5:22). In fact, the other eight qualities are really just descriptions of its expression.
Whenever we demonstrate kindness, patience, or gentleness, we see the Lord’s love at work through us, especially when the other person has been unkind and doesn’t deserve such pleasant treatment. This fruit is not produced by trying harder to muster good will toward someone who is irritating or hard to get along with. Instead, think of the process more like sap running through a branch on a grape-vine. The branch doesn’t make grapes; the sap does. In the same way, the Spirit flows through us, producing God’s love in us, so that we can p*** it on to Him and others.

BigJulie

04-07-2017, 01:21 PM

Hi Julie
You receive the Holy Spirit when you are born again, you are born again when you hear the Gospel, believe it is truth, confess and forsake your sin and trust that Jesus is willing and able to redeem you. Thank about John 15:5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing." One can't "do" anything without first being in the vine.

The question becomes, do we have choice? Do we choose to turn to Christ?

I say yes. Do you agree? Can the Holy Ghost instruct us prior to being born again if we ask?

Acts 10: 1-5 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius. And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God. And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:

Act 10:17 Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,

Act 10:22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee. Then called he them in, and lodged them. And on the morrow Peter went away with them, and certain brethren from Joppa accompanied him.

(so they went back to Cornelius)

Act 10:30 And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing. And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God.

Act 10:34-35 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

(Then Peter preaches of Christ and the disciples witness of his resurrection and commandment to teach others.)

Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

In this account, what happened first? Was Cornelius act righteously first and then receive a witness or the other way around? When did Cornelius and his followers receive a witness of the Holy Ghost about Christ? Who is accepted by Christ? Those who receive the Holy Ghost first or those who "worketh righteousness"?

alanmolstad

04-07-2017, 01:47 PM

BigJulie

04-07-2017, 02:01 PM

one of the best posts I have seen yet on this topic!

50 points for you!

Yes, you get a witness of Christ from the Holy Ghost once you believe, but look at Cornelius who was a good man who had no knowledge of Jesus Christ--yet, he was good before, he worked righteousness and had a vision prior to learning of Jesus Christ. He had a witness from the Holy Ghost after he heard of Christ, however, he "worketh righteousness" and received a vision prior to this.

BigJulie

04-07-2017, 04:43 PM

Hi again Julie,
What an overwhelming ***ignment, very hard to do.
In our own strength, none of us can live up to this obligation, but the Lord has provided a way for Christians to do the impossible. The indwelling Holy Spirit works to produce His fruit in us, and first on the list is love (Galatians 5:22). In fact, the other eight qualities are really just descriptions of its expression.
Whenever we demonstrate kindness, patience, or gentleness, we see the Lord’s love at work through us, especially when the other person has been unkind and doesn’t deserve such pleasant treatment. This fruit is not produced by trying harder to muster good will toward someone who is irritating or hard to get along with. Instead, think of the process more like sap running through a branch on a grape-vine. The branch doesn’t make grapes; the sap does. In the same way, the Spirit flows through us, producing God’s love in us, so that we can p*** it on to Him and others.

I have no disagreement with your thoughts here. The only point of difference is what part do we play in the process. You can look to my post on Cornelius to see more scriptural reference of one who did not know Christ and yet found Christ through his own desire to seek Him. (One truth is often the opposite of another profound truth. :) )

Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

alanmolstad

04-07-2017, 07:35 PM

Yes, you get a witness of Christ from the Holy Ghost once you believe, but look at Cornelius who was a good man who had no knowledge of Jesus Christ--yet, he was good before,

Mark 10:18

BigJulie

04-07-2017, 09:36 PM

Mark 10:18

Yes, but once again--the point is that Cornelius was not aware of Jesus Christ and did not receive the witness of the Holy Ghost until later.

Or, are you arguing that this statement is not accurate "But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."

alanmolstad

04-07-2017, 10:02 PM

Me?

im simply pointing out the scriptures.....as for you?...thats unclear.

alanmolstad

04-07-2017, 10:07 PM

This is how it is....

We are saved by grace through faith,,,and not by works.

This does not meas we are without works....

But it does mean we are not saved by works.
it also does not mean we are saved by grace though works..

and yes, it also means that we are not saved by grace though faith and some extra works....

We are save by grace though faith, and that alone....nothing else...nothing added...nothing more we need to doi.

No works at all,,,,nothing,,,zero!,,,,zip!,,,,,,,goose egg!

no works mean no works....

We are simply never in a million-billion years saved by works,,,or by faith and works....no matter how great the works are...

Works are a moot point!

They dont count, nor add to our salvation!....

and thank GOD!

alanmolstad

04-07-2017, 10:08 PM

so we are saved by grace though faith alone, but faith is never alone!

alanmolstad

04-07-2017, 10:10 PM

this is why Jesus could tell us to keep his Commandments, yet the thief on the cross never kept any but was saved.
because he whom has faith fulfills all the law..

For to whom much is given much is required.

But the "needed" is only faith in the one true God, and in his only Son and the resurrection.....in other words,,,"Faith" in the Jesus of the Bible.

alanmolstad

04-07-2017, 10:15 PM

so,,,in the end, all men are the same as the thief on the cross...

We all come to the Lord, empty handed,,,lacking any works that amount to squat....

We can only do what we are told we can, and that is to "believe"....

for if we have faith, god will, credit this faith to us are perfect righteousness....and we will stand before our eternal judge, blameless and sin-free....

dberrie2000

04-08-2017, 04:08 AM

so we are saved by grace though faith alone, but faith is never alone!

That's what I call a confused faith.

alanmolstad

04-08-2017, 06:20 AM

and so this is why we say we are saved by grace though faith...and not by works.

so we are not saved by faith and works.

We are saved by grace through faith alone, but faith is never alone.

Have we ever said that faith is without works?.......ever?........anyone?

Has anyone said we Christians have faith without works?.......ever?....anyone here?.....any Christian at all..????????

Is it written down someplace else?.....any Christian site?......

What I see is this - we Christians point out that we are saved by grace though faith alone, but that faith is never really alone....for the natural flow of works comes from our faith, for we are saved to produce good works.....even if its not us that does the good works but the Lord that works his works and plans though us.

For there is a justification of faith and a Justification of works.

For faith = before God
For works = before men.

any questions?

BigJulie

04-08-2017, 12:55 PM

That's what I call a confused faith.

Thank you! These arguments that go back and forth saying yes, but no, but yes again get dizzying.

Christian

04-10-2017, 04:23 PM

Christian,it would be really nice if you gave up your prejudice about what I believe and listen to what I say, or if not, just what the scriptures say.

Why are we commanded to love God with all of our heart, soul and mind if God expects nothing from us?

God expects nothing from us TO MAKE US HIS CLEANSED CHILDREN. My own children are expected to do nothing to BE my children. They could even fall into a cesspool and REMAIN MY CHILDREN, though they might SMELL BAD.

But as teens they WERE expected to mow the lawn, carry out the trash, make their beds, clean their rooms etc, NOT TO BE MY KIDS, NOT TO GET INTO OUR HOUSE, but because it was their DUTY to do so out of love for their parents.

We don't have to "DO STUFF" to 'earn our way to heaven. or to 'help God out' in getting us there. We ARE told to do stuff because we LOVE GOD, NOT TO 'get into heaven' or to 'be allowed into our home,'

IF you believe that YOU must 'clean up your act' to be one of God's children, then your man-made religion has taught you falsehoods. YOU have nothing 'spotless' in YOURSELF to offer Him as a sacrifice. ONLY JESUS qualified to do that.

There is nothing to restore. The TRUTH, THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST has been present for about 2,000 years now, and HIS BODY the church HAS NEVER DIED, OR EVEN BEEN WEAKENED.

There have been MANY APOSTASIES in Christianity just as there have been in joey smith's own religion (If you would like a list of 150 or so of them, I can provide it for you. . .I've posted it to this forum before.

BUT THERE HAS NEVER ONCE BEEN ANY COMPLETE APOSTASY, any "loss" of our authority, OR of our scriptures OR of our RIGHT TO ACT FOR AND PROCLAIM GOD'S GOOD NEWS TO THE WORLD.

But then smith's religion has changed with the public sentiments of the times. They keep trying to become more like mainline Christianity, while still believing in a 'spirit-brother-of-satan-'jesus'. But it will never work.

Blacks seem to no longer 'bear the mark of Cain' and now they can be part of your religion's 'priesthood,' even though previous presidents of your religion have called them 'lower' than whites, and stated CLEARLY that they could never hold your 'priesthood.'

Your cult has lied to you, Julie

BigJulie

04-10-2017, 07:34 PM

God expects nothing from us TO MAKE US HIS CLEANSED CHILDREN. My own children are expected to do nothing to BE my children. They could even fall into a cesspool and REMAIN MY CHILDREN, though they might SMELL BAD.

But as teens they WERE expected to mow the lawn, carry out the trash, make their beds, clean their rooms etc, NOT TO BE MY KIDS, NOT TO GET INTO OUR HOUSE, but because it was their DUTY to do so out of love for their parents.

We don't have to "DO STUFF" to 'earn our way to heaven. or to 'help God out' in getting us there. We ARE told to do stuff because we LOVE GOD, NOT TO 'get into heaven' or to 'be allowed into our home,'

IF you believe that YOU must 'clean up your act' to be one of God's children, then your man-made religion has taught you falsehoods. YOU have nothing 'spotless' in YOURSELF to offer Him as a sacrifice. ONLY JESUS qualified to do that.

There is nothing to restore. The TRUTH, THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST has been present for about 2,000 years now, and HIS BODY the church HAS NEVER DIED, OR EVEN BEEN WEAKENED.

There have been MANY APOSTASIES in Christianity just as there have been in joey smith's own religion (If you would like a list of 150 or so of them, I can provide it for you. . .I've posted it to this forum before.

BUT THERE HAS NEVER ONCE BEEN ANY COMPLETE APOSTASY, any "loss" of our authority, OR of our scriptures OR of our RIGHT TO ACT FOR AND PROCLAIM GOD'S GOOD NEWS TO THE WORLD.

But then smith's religion has changed with the public sentiments of the times. They keep trying to become more like mainline Christianity, while still believing in a 'spirit-brother-of-satan-'jesus'. But it will never work.

Blacks seem to no longer 'bear the mark of Cain' and now they can be part of your religion's 'priesthood,' even though previous presidents of your religion have called them 'lower' than whites, and stated CLEARLY that they could never hold your 'priesthood.'

Your cult has lied to you, Julie

Nice, but not a scripturally backed. While we are saved by grace, he extends his grace to those who love him; hence, God commands us to love him.

Act 10:34 -35 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

(Notice, it is referring to the book of life?)

dberrie2000

04-11-2017, 03:49 AM

Have we ever said that faith is without works?.......ever?........anyone?

The faith alone theology preaches one obtains salvation through a faith without works.

If you disagree--please list what works you believe one adds to faith in obtaining salvation.

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

alanmolstad

04-11-2017, 04:20 AM

The faith alone theology preaches one obtains salvation through a faith without works.

.

WRONG!.....

so wrong,,,so very wrong....

I think you might want to back up and try to find a quote from me to support some of your silly ideas from time to time before you post them thinking they are what I believe...Might be less embarr***ing for you later...

alanmolstad

04-11-2017, 05:12 AM

http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?4116-quot-Not-by-works-quot-and-quot-without-works-quot

try quote that...

Christian

04-11-2017, 05:51 AM

So you think you don't need to love him? Is that too much for you to do? Is that too much for Him to ask?-the one who died for you and me?

When did LOVING GOD become a 'need?' OF COURSE I LOVE HIM. You should too. BUT THE ONE WE LOVE MUST BE THE REAL ONE, not a 'spirit-brother-of-satan' or a spirit brother of ANY demons. Following joey smith's demonic gods will send you nowhere but to hell.

Christian

04-11-2017, 05:56 AM

Even the thief DID something, he humbled himself and came to Christ. If it was faith alone, he would have just hung there and done nothing.

Nice THEORY, but that is all it is. . .YOUR THEORY. ALL YOU HAVE is your own crazy SPECULATION that he was humbled by God.

ALL HE DID was to BELIEVE, THEN AFTER HE BELIEVED, tell the others.

HIS FAITH saved him. NOT his telling the others.

My Father-in-law believed. He lay in bed and did nothing to make himself believe. BUT HE WENT TO BE WITH JESUS a few days later.

My sister went to be with Jesus 2 weeks ago. No 'ordinance-keeping' was required.

joey smith lied to you.

disciple

04-11-2017, 06:27 AM

I have no disagreement with your thoughts here. The only point of difference is what part do we play in the process. You can look to my post on Cornelius to see more scriptural reference of one who did not know Christ and yet found Christ through his own desire to seek Him. (One truth is often the opposite of another profound truth. :) )

Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Hi Julie,

You continue to put the cart before horse. Once your spirit was dead. You had no communion with God at all. You didn’t have eyes for things of the Spirit. You didn’t have a love for God, or an interest in the Bible. Everything was dead. And then something happened. You were touched by the Spirit and you are alive. Your spirit is alive. The Spirit gives life to the spirit.
Everybody needs that. I need it. Everybody in the world must be born again or they will not enter the kingdom of heaven. We are all born dead, just flesh. Paul said, “The mind of the flesh is hostile to God. It does not submit to God”. Rom 8:7
It cannot do the things that God tells it to do. We are not getting anywhere with the demands of Jesus without being born again.
Jesus says, “The wind ****s where it wills. You don’t know where it came from. You don’t know where it is going. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit” John 3:8 This is a sovereign free work of God. You don’t make it happen by all of a sudden loving Jesus or by doing works of obedience. One day you are bored by the Bible. You feel you have no need of Christ. Next day, you can’t get enough of this book and he is your Savior and Lord. What happened? A miracle happened. The new birth happened. But your works didn’t cause it to happen.
What does the new birth have to do with your faith? We get an answer in 1 John 5:1 “Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God.” It doesn’t say everyone who loves Jesus or everyone who obeys Jesus, that comes next. If you are a believer, you have been born of God. It’s not the other way around. If I need to be born of God, I in my deadness do not now believe, as if a miracle will happen because I have now believed. No, the faith is the miracle. You have seen him as infinitely worthy, and you trust him. That is what God does for us, gives us a measure of faith.

BigJulie

04-11-2017, 04:01 PM

Hi Julie,

You continue to put the cart before horse. Once your spirit was dead. You had no communion with God at all. You didn’t have eyes for things of the Spirit. You didn’t have a love for God, or an interest in the Bible. Everything was dead. And then something happened. You were touched by the Spirit and you are alive. Your spirit is alive. The Spirit gives life to the spirit.
Everybody needs that. I need it. Everybody in the world must be born again or they will not enter the kingdom of heaven. We are all born dead, just flesh. Paul said, “The mind of the flesh is hostile to God. It does not submit to God”. Rom 8:7
It cannot do the things that God tells it to do. We are not getting anywhere with the demands of Jesus without being born again.
Jesus says, “The wind ****s where it wills. You don’t know where it came from. You don’t know where it is going. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit” John 3:8 This is a sovereign free work of God. You don’t make it happen by all of a sudden loving Jesus or by doing works of obedience. One day you are bored by the Bible. You feel you have no need of Christ. Next day, you can’t get enough of this book and he is your Savior and Lord. What happened? A miracle happened. The new birth happened. But your works didn’t cause it to happen.
What does the new birth have to do with your faith? We get an answer in 1 John 5:1 “Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God.” It doesn’t say everyone who loves Jesus or everyone who obeys Jesus, that comes next. If you are a believer, you have been born of God. It’s not the other way around. If I need to be born of God, I in my deadness do not now believe, as if a miracle will happen because I have now believed. No, the faith is the miracle. You have seen him as infinitely worthy, and you trust him. That is what God does for us, gives us a measure of faith.

So, are you saying that God chooses whom He saves and the rest he leaves to dead? How does this scripture fit with that thought?

Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

With your thinking, wouldn't God save everyone--bring every spirit back to life so that they seek him?

Also, when John 3 speaks of being "born again"--to you, when were we born of the spirit the first time? As you referenced how the spirit works like the wind--and what it means to be born again. Clearly, Christ is speaking of to Nicodemus of a spiritual rebirth. So, when were you spiritually born the first time?

Lastly, your post doesn't address this scripture found in Acts 10 " Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Remember, Cornelius had no idea of Jesus Christ was until after he received a vision and went to Peter. It was Peter who then testified of Christ and only after that, we are told "While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word."

I have posted about Cornelius before, but you completely ignored this scripture, nor explained how it works with your theories.

disciple

04-12-2017, 06:24 AM

The question becomes, do we have choice? Do we choose to turn to Christ?

I say yes. Do you agree? Can the Holy Ghost instruct us prior to being born again if we ask?

Acts 10: 1-5 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius. And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God. And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:

Act 10:17 Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,

Act 10:22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee. Then called he them in, and lodged them. And on the morrow Peter went away with them, and certain brethren from Joppa accompanied him.

(so they went back to Cornelius)

Act 10:30 And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing. And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God.

Act 10:34-35 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

(Then Peter preaches of Christ and the disciples witness of his resurrection and commandment to teach others.)

Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

In this account, what happened first? Was Cornelius act righteously first and then receive a witness or the other way around? When did Cornelius and his followers receive a witness of the Holy Ghost about Christ? Who is accepted by Christ? Those who receive the Holy Ghost first or those who "worketh righteousness"?

Hi Julie,

Even though Cornelius was, devout, just, generous and prayed daily, that didn't save him. He was still spiritually dead, not able to obey God. The motive behind his many good traits were arrived at by human reasoning. I know this because of Acts 11:13-17 which you neglected to include,"Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon whose surname is Peter, who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.’ And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?” Cornelius could have been a great guy for the rest of his life but without the words he and his family heard and the faith God gave them to believe he would be lost.

BigJulie

04-12-2017, 09:00 AM

Hi Julie,

Even though Cornelius was, devout, just, generous and prayed daily, that didn't save him. He was still spiritually dead, not able to obey God. The motive behind his many good traits were arrived at by human reasoning. I know this because of Acts 11:13-17 which you neglected to include,"Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon whose surname is Peter, who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.’ And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?” Cornelius could have been a great guy for the rest of his life but without the words he and his family heard and the faith God gave them to believe he would be lost.

I wasn't asking about what saved him (I understand we are saved by Christ), I was asking which came first--the act of obedience or the Holy Spirit. Cornelius received a revelation for which he received the scripture you refer to. Before he heard of Christ or had the Holy Ghost, Cornelius was a devout man who then received a revelation. Do you deny he was obedient to the vision he had seen? So which came first in this case? The obedience or the Holy Ghost--you stated he can't obey God because he was spiritually dead. Do you deny that he received a revelation from God and obeyed it prior to receiving the saving information of Jesus Christ?

How do you feel about this scripture: Act 10:34-35 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

How do you understand Acts 10: 34-35 in light of your theories?

disciple

04-12-2017, 10:27 AM

I wasn't asking about what saved him (I understand we are saved by Christ), I was asking which came first--the act of obedience or the Holy Spirit. Cornelius received a revelation for which he received the scripture you refer to. Before he heard of Christ or had the Holy Ghost, Cornelius was a devout man who then received a revelation. Do you deny he was obedient to the vision he had seen? So which came first in this case? The obedience or the Holy Ghost--you stated he can't obey God because he was spiritually dead. Do you deny that he received a revelation from God and obeyed it prior to receiving the saving information of Jesus Christ?

How do you feel about this scripture: Act 10:34-35 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

How do you understand Acts 10: 34-35 in light of your theories?

Hi Julie,
You must first acknowledge, as the scripture says, “But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.”Heb. 11:6 And also Rom. 10:17 “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
God must have revealed Himself to us by His grace, in the reality and certainty of His existence and character, before there can be any desire to seek Him. It is by grace that we receive faith, again without which it is impossible to please God, or do works of righteousness acceptable in his sight. Men do many acts you and I would accept as righteous, but our standard is not God’s standard.
Acts 10:34-35 tells us that while God calls from "every nation," only some, those who fear and obey, are acceptable to Him. What you are avoiding is that “fearing” God and obeying God are not idea’s that originate in unsaved people, it originates with God.

BigJulie

04-12-2017, 01:59 PM

Hi Julie,
You must first acknowledge, as the scripture says, “But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.”Heb. 11:6 And also Rom. 10:17 “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
God must have revealed Himself to us by His grace, in the reality and certainty of His existence and character, before there can be any desire to seek Him. It is by grace that we receive faith, again without which it is impossible to please God, or do works of righteousness acceptable in his sight. Men do many acts you and I would accept as righteous, but our standard is not God’s standard.
Acts 10:34-35 tells us that while God calls from "every nation," only some, those who fear and obey, are acceptable to Him. What you are avoiding is that “fearing” God and obeying God are not idea’s that originate in unsaved people, it originates with God.

I completely agree that our standard is not God's standard.

But based on these scriptures:

Jhn 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

and:

Act 10:34-35 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Do you believe that there is ANY person who seeks God whom he will not answer (even the gentile Cornelius)? And why do you think Cornelius received a revelation from God in that pre-Christ-knowledge/Holy Ghost state? Can you p**** Acts 10:34-35 for me as to what you believe this means?

(I get that we cannot save ourselves, you don't need to repeat that. This has more to do with our actions and how God responds to them, or our inactions and how God responds.)

You can p**** this one too--while you are at it and since this scripture backs my thinking more than your point: “But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.”Heb. 11:6

disciple

04-13-2017, 07:13 AM

I completely agree that our standard is not God's standard.

But based on these scriptures:

Jhn 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

and:

Act 10:34-35 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Do you believe that there is ANY person who seeks God whom he will not answer (even the gentile Cornelius)? And why do you think Cornelius received a revelation from God in that pre-Christ-knowledge/Holy Ghost state? Can you p**** Acts 10:34-35 for me as to what you believe this means?

(I get that we cannot save ourselves, you don't need to repeat that. This has more to do with our actions and how God responds to them, or our inactions and how God responds.)

You can p**** this one too--while you are at it and since this scripture backs my thinking more than your point: “But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.”Heb. 11:6

Hello Julie,

John 12:47 tells us that Jesus came as a Savior, it is not the mission of a Savior to condemn or Judge even if some He came to redeem reject the message.
Again the scriptures tell us there is none good or righteous, none who seeks after God and all are dead in tresp***es and sin until they are born again.
God is sovereign ,He dealt with Cornelius according to His will but Cornelius was not born again until he heard and believed the gospel.

BigJulie

04-13-2017, 01:11 PM

Hello Julie,

John 12:47 tells us that Jesus came as a Savior, it is not the mission of a Savior to condemn or Judge even if some He came to redeem reject the message.
Again the scriptures tell us there is none good or righteous, none who seeks after God and all are dead in tresp***es and sin until they are born again.
God is sovereign ,He dealt with Cornelius according to His will but Cornelius was not born again until he heard and believed the gospel.

I get that Cornelius was not born again until after he learned of Christ--I also understand that the mission of the Savior is to redeem man. I also understand the idea that without some belief in God, one would not ask, seek or do anything in His direction. However, the point is that Cornelius, without knowledge of Christ was a devout man who "feareth him and "worketh righteousness" (scripture words, not mine) and prayed.

So....you appear to be avoiding the real question, which is can we be obedient first, can we seek first, and will God respond to this?

What do you think of this scripture, exactly what does it mean to you?

Act 10:34-35 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Especially in light that Cornelius did not learn of Jesus Christ or receive the Holy Spirit until AFTER he was "devout" and prayerful, even as a Gentile and even before he had any idea of who Jesus Christ was.

You also completely ignored the other scripture you posted regarding: “But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.”Heb. 11:6

What does God reward those who diligently seek Him?

Christian

04-16-2017, 05:00 PM

julie posted:

And how does one get the Holy Spirit? Must one do something? The Book of Mormon teaches us that we must COME unto Christ.

But GOD taught us that you CANNOT SOME to Jesus Christ unless you are DRAWN to Him BY GOD.

John 6:65
65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
NKJV

HOW do you think that spiritually DEAD folks who cannot understand spiritual things could on their own just 'willy nilly' 'decide' to come to Jesus?

So, let's get to your experience, do you find that love takes effort--to love your wife, to love your children?

LOVE (agape. . .UNCONDITIONAL LOVE) is not just a 'mushy feeling.' It is a COMMITMENT. And at times such AGAPE love is difficult.

Even if the feeling is there, do you ever find yourself COMING to Christ in humility so that your love can be perfected?

I love my wife even at times when I DON'T 'feel like it.' Perhaps you should think a little more about the THREE TYPES of love expressed by GOD. Eros (physical 'feeling') Phileo (Brotherly love) and Agape (UNCONDITIONAL love, such as JESUS SHOWED when He died for us on the cross.)

Do you feel your spirit *****ed to action when you do something wrong? Do you feel remorse and ACT as the spirit directs? Or are you a puppet that has no thoughts or choices of your own?

I am a Christian who loves and serves the Lord (the REAL One, not any demonic 'spirit-brother-of-satan' that the mormons follow).

My conscience is *****ed by the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD Who lives within me. My body is His Temple.

I'm sorry if your religion teaches you that you have to GO TO a "temple." The Holy Spirit LIVES within mine. And there is nothing 'puppet' about that. It is only what GOD has said of HIS PEOPLE.

(Rom 8:9, 1 Corinthians 6:19-20)

BigJulie

04-16-2017, 09:15 PM

alanmolstad

04-17-2017, 04:52 AM

And still no addressing what happened with Cornelius, nor this scripture:

Act 10:34-35 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Im not really sure of the context of your discussion, nor what part is the question about him?

But I can answer as to what i get out of the story about him.

The full story about him shows us that although he was a good man and led a life that showed he tried to be just, it also shows us that being a good man is just not the same as being saved or a christian.

What happens in the story is that an angel shows up and tells him to send for Peter.
and more or less at the same time Peter is given a vision and is told to go see him.

Now when Peter gets to the guy's house he starts off telling them the things they already knew.
The things that they already knew were that God was in Christ, and that Christ did many good works and healed people.

We learn this in the words - "6 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.

and ...

You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

So its very clear that Cornelius and his family and friends knew about the life and ministry of Jesus.
But what is also clear is that that is where their understanding stopped.

They clearly do not know or, or at least believe in the stories told about the resurrection of Jesus yet.

This is where Peter now starts to tell them about the things that are why they are all there.

Peter starts to tell them about the resurrection.

Peter says now - "They killed him by hanging him on a cross, 40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41 He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.

The Peter gets to the very heart of the salvation message by telling them about how to have their sins forgiven - " All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

Peter teaches that to have FAITH in the resurrection is what brings salvation and forgiveness .

The people believe...they put their faith in the message that they have now heard, and they become saved.
As a sign to all that they truly now are saved, the Holy Spirit comes on them with power and they speak in tongues.

The tongues are a sign that salvation had now finally come to them.

At that point Peter has them all baptized into the church.

all this is in full agreement with what we teach how men are saved..
For we are saved by Grace though faith, and not by works.

Christian

04-17-2017, 07:01 AM

Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post

So IS IT YOUR ***ERTION that when you are SPIRITUALLY DEAD in your sins, you can 'do good works' to help God save your soul?

That is what it sounds like you are saying.

Christian,it would be really nice if you gave up your prejudice about what I believe and listen to what I say, or if not, just what the scriptures say.

Why are we commanded to love God with all of our heart, soul and mind if God expects nothing from us?

Why can't you answer SIMPLE QUESTIONS without false accusations of 'prejudice' or other attempted diversions from them?

Are you AFRAID TO TRY to answer the HONEST QUESTIONS?

Do you simply NOT HAVE any HONEST ANSWERS to the questions?

The Question STILL REMAINS. . ."So IS IT YOUR ***ERTION that when you are SPIRITUALLY DEAD in your sins, you can 'do good works' to help God save your soul?"

That REMAINS what it sounds like you are saying.

Now instead of falsely attacking ME, PLEASE TRY TO ANSWER THE QUESTION. . .

BigJulie

04-17-2017, 07:33 AM

Im not really sure of the context of your discussion, nor what part is the question about him?

But I can answer as to what i get out of the story about him.

The full story about him shows us that although he was a good man and led a life that showed he tried to be just, it also shows us that being a good man is just not the same as being saved or a christian.

What happens in the story is that an angel shows up and tells him to send for Peter.
and more or less at the same time Peter is given a vision and is told to go see him.

Now when Peter gets to the guy's house he starts off telling them the things they already knew.
The things that they already knew were that God was in Christ, and that Christ did many good works and healed people.

We learn this in the words - "6 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.

and ...

You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

So its very clear that Cornelius and his family and friends knew about the life and ministry of Jesus.
But what is also clear is that that is where their understanding stopped.

They clearly do not know or, or at least believe in the stories told about the resurrection of Jesus yet.

This is where Peter now starts to tell them about the things that are why they are all there.

Peter starts to tell them about the resurrection.

Peter says now - "They killed him by hanging him on a cross, 40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41 He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.

The Peter gets to the very heart of the salvation message by telling them about how to have their sins forgiven - " All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

Peter teaches that to have FAITH in the resurrection is what brings salvation and forgiveness .

The people believe...they put their faith in the message that they have now heard, and they become saved.
As a sign to all that they truly now are saved, the Holy Spirit comes on them with power and they speak in tongues.

The tongues are a sign that salvation had now finally come to them.

At that point Peter has them all baptized into the church.

all this is in full agreement with what we teach how men are saved..
For we are saved by Grace though faith, and not by works.

Alan, I get the story, I also get that they were converted.

I am curious what you think of this specific line?

Act 10:34-35 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

What does THIS line mean to you?

BigJulie

04-17-2017, 07:40 AM

Why can't you answer SIMPLE QUESTIONS without false accusations of 'prejudice' or other attempted diversions from them?

Are you AFRAID TO TRY to answer the HONEST QUESTIONS?

Do you simply NOT HAVE any HONEST ANSWERS to the questions?

The Question STILL REMAINS. . ."So IS IT YOUR ***ERTION that when you are SPIRITUALLY DEAD in your sins, you can 'do good works' to help God save your soul?"

That REMAINS what it sounds like you are saying.

Now instead of falsely attacking ME, PLEASE TRY TO ANSWER THE QUESTION. . .

Christian, the problem is that you already have a preconceived idea of what I believe and when I explain what I believe, you call me names (biggie) and still cling to your preconceive beliefs. That is the very definition of prejudice.

As far as your question:

."So [B]IS IT YOUR ***ERTION that when you are SPIRITUALLY DEAD in your sins, you can 'do good works' to help God save your soul?"

No, my ***ertion is NOT that the spiritually dead can do good works and through that be saved, my ***ertion is "every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."

In other words, for those who do not know God, but seek him, He will answer.

Do you disagree? I get the feeling that Christians on this site think that they do nothing--God hand-picks them and then begins doing works of righteousness through them--or that He IS a respecter of persons.

disciple

04-17-2017, 12:01 PM

Christian, the problem is that you already have a preconceived idea of what I believe and when I explain what I believe, you call me names (biggie) and still cling to your preconceive beliefs. That is the very definition of prejudice.

As far as your question:

No, my ***ertion is NOT that the spiritually dead can do good works and through that be saved, my ***ertion is "every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."

In other words, for those who do not know God, but seek him, He will answer.

Do you disagree? I get the feeling that Christians on this site think that they do nothing--God hand-picks them and then begins doing works of righteousness through them--or that He IS a respecter of persons.

Hi Julie,

Because the Bible makes it clear that there are none who are righteous, none who seek after God and all are spiritually dead, no one can seek God unless by His grace He initiates the seeking. That's the point, even with Cornelius.

BigJulie

04-17-2017, 02:12 PM

Hi Julie,

Because the Bible makes it clear that there are none who are righteous, none who seek after God and all are spiritually dead, no one can seek God unless by His grace He initiates the seeking. That's the point, even with Cornelius.

So, to you God IS a respecter of persons and this statement is false:

Act 10:34-35 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

You directly do not believe the above verses as well as the following:

Jhn 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Unlike you, I believe Christ came to save the world--not pick and choose whom he will save--which thought is completely unbiblical and very sad that anyone could spin the Bible to mean anything other than he reaches out with open arms to save us.

alanmolstad

04-17-2017, 06:15 PM

Act 10:34-35 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

What does THIS line mean to you?

Then Peter opened his mouth, and said an odd way to talk about Peter saying something...I mean if he is going to say something I can guess without being told that he would have to open his mouth.
The use of the phrase here then to me shows us that Peter had an expression on his face at the time that was odd....different...as if Peter was discovering something new to him...a sudden realization.

Of a truth I perceive...Peter is saying here that he now sees a truth, or now understands a truth in a brighter light of understanding. Peter might have had an idea about this stuff, but it is right here and now where Peter finally gets it...finally understands a few things better.

God is no respecter of persons....in the context of a Jew at that time, we see that no matter how much a convert wanted to believe, the simple fact of life is he cant ever actually be equal to they who were born Jews.
There is a wall in the temple where the born Jews could p***, and the rest could not regardless of how much they wanted to, and believed in the same God as the jew....they could never go beyond that wall.
Peter here is now clearly reached the point of view that there is no real wall between Jew and non-Jew...

But in every nation...while this phrase means to us "countries" like America and Russia etc, Im not sure that is what Peter was talking about. I think in the conte4xt of that age, the phrase "Nations" is mostly talking about the race and family tree of people.

he that feareth him,...the word "feareth" = means in our age, to have concern for, to respect, to think about...to contemplate and understand.

worketh righteousness...worketh = John 6:29 Righteousness = Galatians 3:6

is accepted with him...= as seen at Romans 5:20...God is not offended by our sins to the point that he turns away from us..
Rather God offers us more grace when more sin enters into our lives..

BigJulie

04-17-2017, 07:40 PM

Then Peter opened his mouth, and said an odd way to talk about Peter saying something...I mean if he is going to say something I can guess without being told that he would have to open his mouth.
The use of the phrase here then to me shows us that Peter had an expression on his face at the time that was odd....different...as if Peter was discovering something new to him...a sudden realization.

Of a truth I perceive...Peter is saying here that he now sees a truth, or now understands a truth in a brighter light of understanding. Peter might have had an idea about this stuff, but it is right here and now where Peter finally gets it...finally understands a few things better.

God is no respecter of persons....in the context of a Jew at that time, we see that no matter how much a convert wanted to believe, the simple fact of life is he cant ever actually be equal to they who were born Jews.
There is a wall in the temple where the born Jews could p***, and the rest could not regardless of how much they wanted to, and believed in the same God as the jew....they could never go beyond that wall.
Peter here is now clearly reached the point of view that there is no real wall between Jew and non-Jew...

But in every nation...while this phrase means to us "countries" like America and Russia etc, Im not sure that is what Peter was talking about. I think in the conte4xt of that age, the phrase "Nations" is mostly talking about the race and family tree of people.

he that feareth him,...the word "feareth" = means in our age, to have concern for, to respect, to think about...to contemplate and understand.

worketh righteousness...worketh = John 6:29 Righteousness = Galatians 3:6

is accepted with him...= as seen at Romans 5:20...God is not offended by our sins to the point that he turns away from us..
Rather God offers us more grace when more sin enters into our lives..

That's an awful lot of spinning to get around just saying God doesn't care who you are or where you come from, if you seek him and do what He asks, He will give you his grace.

alanmolstad

04-17-2017, 08:01 PM

That's an awful lot of spinning to get around just saying God doesn't care who you are or where you come from, if you seek him and do what He asks, He will give you his grace.

I believe the question you asked was "What does THIS line mean to you? "

Thus my answer is to that issue as to what the Bible verse means to me personally...

I wanted to be very clear as to what I think it all means, and so thats why I went over the whole thing mostly word-by-word...as I did not want to just 'sum it all up" only to end up skipping something.

BigJulie

04-17-2017, 09:30 PM

I believe the question you asked was "What does THIS line mean to you? "

Thus my answer is to that issue as to what the Bible verse means to me personally...

I wanted to be very clear as to what I think it all means, and so thats why I went over the whole thing mostly word-by-word...as I did not want to just 'sum it all up" only to end up skipping something.

It is fine that you went over it word by word. However, your explanation with John 6:29 and Galations 3:6 ignore the point that Cornelius did not know of Christ prior to his revelation or receiving the Holy Ghost and therefore, according to your verses, would not be possible for Cornelius to "worketh righteousness." So, your explanation basically denies exactly what happened to Cornelius.

alanmolstad

04-18-2017, 01:35 AM

The gifts only come once you believe.
That is the sign in the story of salvation faith....the lone channel of grace

alanmolstad

04-18-2017, 05:02 AM

The gifts only come once you believe.
That is the sign in the story of salvation faith....the lone channel of grace

so before Peter spoke to the guy was he saved?...nope.

But did he not have many good works that earned him salvation?.....nope.

What are such works then for him?....they are the natural effect of faith.
The man believed in the God of the Jews, and this caused the deeds to be part of his natural life...they are the effect of his faith.

This is what the Bible is talking about with the idea of "Justification by works"
men cant see the man's heart, but we can see his deeds, and the deeds of a man are said to reflect his heart.

So we can know that based on the many good deeds of the man, that the guy was a believer in the God of the Jews.

But he was not saved.

Works dont save.

Works are the effect of your faith on your life...works flow from faith...but they dont add to your faith, nor add to your salvation story..

So the man was not yet saved regardless of his many good deeds...

What do the deeds of the man show us today?....they show us that what Walter Martin said on the recordings I have posted are very true.....That no man goes to hell for simply never hearing about Jesus, rather we are judged according to the "light" we receive and how we respond to that light.

The man in this story has openly received the dim-light , but had not seen the brighter light of the resurrection as of yet.

The man had simply responded to the dim light he received....as is natural for us .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVXMUDC_pw8

Is there another person in the Bible that is just like this man before Peter spoke to him?....yes, the 12 men talked about at ACTS 19 are in the same situation.
They had a faith in the dim light that had so far received, but they were not yet saved, not yet filled with the gifts of the Holy Spirit...
They had the good deeds that you would expect to see from people who believed in the God of the Jews...But they were not saved.

So it's only after they believe that they are saved and are filled with the Holy Spirit.

So once again,,,,how are we saved?...We are saved by Grace though faith, and no by works...

Works do not save us, but they do confirm to others that we are saved....for while we are saved by Grace though faith alone, faith is never alone.

any questions so far on anything I have said to this point?

disciple

04-18-2017, 06:22 AM

So, to you God IS a respecter of persons and this statement is false:

Act 10:34-35 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

You directly do not believe the above verses as well as the following:

Jhn 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Unlike you, I believe Christ came to save the world--not pick and choose whom he will save--which thought is completely unbiblical and very sad that anyone could spin the Bible to mean anything other than he reaches out with open arms to save us.

Hi Julie,

Of course I believe that Jesus came to save the world, just as I believe the scripture that tells us that God is no respecter of persons. What I don't believe is that men can decide to seek God of their own initiative, that they can work righteousness that is acceptable to God without His grace to guide them. The works that men deem righteous are but filthy rags in God's sight. Men are natural enemies of God and do not fear, or as Alan said, respect Him unless they are enabled by Him.

BigJulie

04-18-2017, 08:12 AM

Hi Julie,

Of course I believe that Jesus came to save the world, just as I believe the scripture that tells us that God is no respecter of persons. What I don't believe is that men can decide to seek God of their own initiative, that they can work righteousness that is acceptable to God without His grace to guide them. The works that men deem righteous are but filthy rags in God's sight. Men are natural enemies of God and do not fear, or as Alan said, respect Him unless they are enabled by Him.

Where I agree with you:

That Christ came into the world to save us.
That we can't work righteousness that is acceptable to God without His grace to guide us (or that we can do this on our own and ignore the Spirit AND what He teaches.)
That we are filthy rags in God's site.
That the natural man is an enemy to God.

Where I disagree with you:
That we can't seek God "on our own initiative."

Your comments made me realize how important it is to understand that we are children of God:

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

If we have no choice, then God is a cruel God--creating us to be filthy and then choosing whom he will save. Not Biblically backed at all.

disciple

04-18-2017, 08:47 AM

Where I agree with you:

That Christ came into the world to save us.
That we can't work righteousness that is acceptable to God without His grace to guide us (or that we can do this on our own and ignore the Spirit AND what He teaches.)
That we are filthy rags in God's site.
That the natural man is an enemy to God.

Where I disagree with you:
That we can't seek God "on our own initiative."

Your comments made me realize how important it is to understand that we are children of God:

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

If we have no choice, then God is a cruel God--creating us to be filthy and then choosing whom he will save. Not Biblically backed at all.

Hi Julie,
The scripture you referenced from Romans is referring to the ***urance that born again believers can have, not referring to lost people. The scripture from Luke is talking about the gifts and influences of the Holy Spirit by which we are brought to know God and to believe and repent through the measure of faith first supplied by God. And by the way God did not create us to be filthy, man chose sin but I believe as 2 Peter 3 says God is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. But all won't.

alanmolstad

04-18-2017, 08:48 AM

http://www.toughquestionsanswered.org/2009/04/18/can-man-choose-god-on-his-own/

BigJulie

04-18-2017, 09:32 AM

Hi Julie,
The scripture you referenced from Romans is referring to the ***urance that born again believers can have, not referring to lost people. The scripture from Luke is talking about the gifts and influences of the Holy Spirit by which we are brought to know God and to believe and repent through the measure of faith first supplied by God. And by the way God did not create us to be filthy, man chose sin but I believe as 2 Peter 3 says God is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. But all won't.

I can understand your reasoning with Romans 8, if you read only the verses before, but listen to the verse afterward:

Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Why do you think it is "joint-heirs" with Christ?

Especially that we are taught this: Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

(I have heard the argument that this was speaking to rulers or leaders in the church, but then why say "children of the most High"? --even to they were being chastised as wicked leaders who were NOT following God?)

And there is nothing in Luke 8, that indicates that Christ was only talking about gifts of the spirit.

Luk 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

As far as Peter, yes, I agree that God did not create us to be filthy, but then we start off pure and clean, because of the atonement, correct?

And if God is long-suffering towards us--doesn't that mean that HE is NOT a respecter of persons and will give the spirit to ANY who seek Him? And that if we choose to sin, we can also choose to seek God?

Why is it so important for you to deny your own personal responsibility toward God when the Bible states so clearly that you will be judged "according to your works."

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

disciple

04-18-2017, 10:15 AM

I can understand your reasoning with Romans 8, if you read only the verses before, but listen to the verse afterward:

Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Why do you think it is "joint-heirs" with Christ?

Especially that we are taught this: Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

(I have heard the argument that this was speaking to rulers or leaders in the church, but then why say "children of the most High"? --even to they were being chastised as wicked leaders who were NOT following God?)

And there is nothing in Luke 8, that indicates that Christ was only talking about gifts of the spirit.

Luk 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

As far as Peter, yes, I agree that God did not create us to be filthy, but then we start off pure and clean, because of the atonement, correct?

And if God is long-suffering towards us--doesn't that mean that HE is NOT a respecter of persons and will give the spirit to ANY who seek Him? And that if we choose to sin, we can also choose to seek God?

Why is it so important for you to deny your own personal responsibility toward God when the Bible states so clearly that you will be judged "according to your works."

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Hi Julie,

We don't start out pure and clean, we are born with a sinful nature, bent away from God and as discussed in earlier posts, dead in tresp***es and sins. As unbelievers we choose to sin because as the scriptures tell us we are slaves to sin, we would choose nothing else. Believers can choose not to sin with the aid of the Holy Spirit and if we do commit sin we have an advocate, Jesus Christ. As far as your reference to Rev:20, remember Romans 8:1 "there is now therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus". Believers are not judged in regard to sin, Jesus paid for our sins, believers are judged regarding rewards 1Cor 3:15 "if any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

BigJulie

04-18-2017, 11:32 AM

[QUOTE=disciple;172793]Hi Julie,

We don't start out pure and clean, we are born with a sinful nature, bent away from God and as discussed in earlier posts, dead in tresp***es and sins.

Except this verse disagrees:

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

As unbelievers we choose to sin because as the scriptures tell us we are slaves to sin, we would choose nothing else.

If that were so, then there is no reason to teach of God nor seek God, nor repent prior to receiving the Holy Ghost.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Believers can choose not to sin with the aid of the Holy Spirit and if we do commit sin we have an advocate, Jesus Christ. What, now we choose, and before we don't? This sounds like it comes straight from the Book of Mormon:

And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given.

Is this what you are trying to convey?

As far as your reference to Rev:20, remember Romans 8:1 "there is now therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus". Believers are not judged in regard to sin, Jesus paid for our sins, believers are judged regarding rewards 1Cor 3:15 "if any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." Okay, explain the "rewards" that they will receive.

disciple

04-18-2017, 01:52 PM

[QUOTE]

Except this verse disagrees:

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1 Corinthians 15:22 does not mean everyone will be saved. This verse is saying that everyone will be resurrected. The righteous will be resurrected first (to be with Christ), while the unrighteous will be judged and go to the eternal punishment of the lake of Fire.
This is easier to see when we look at the text in context. We see that Christ was raised first, the first fruits of those who are “asleep.” Then those who are Christ’s, then the end – the judgment where people are raised from the dead for judgment.

1 Corinthians 15:20-26
“But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order : Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death.”
We must recall that Paul said there is a resurrection of the righteous and the wicked.
Acts 24:15 “and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.”

BigJulie

04-18-2017, 04:15 PM

[QUOTE=disciple;172795]

1 Corinthians 15:22 does not mean everyone will be saved. This verse is saying that everyone will be resurrected. The righteous will be resurrected first (to be with Christ), while the unrighteous will be judged and go to the eternal punishment of the lake of Fire.
This is easier to see when we look at the text in context. We see that Christ was raised first, the first fruits of those who are “asleep.” Then those who are Christ’s, then the end – the judgment where people are raised from the dead for judgment.

I completely agree with this, that not all will be "saved" in terms of exaltation, but in overcoming death which is a type of salvation (unless you think over-coming death is no-biggy ;) ) So, since we all start out "saved" from this death, why do you disagree that we begin pure and clean, for doesn't Christ's atonement cover our fall until we actually do sin? (Or do believe babies who die at birth go to hell?) Are we all sinful in nature? Yes, but are we also children of God which gives us the ability to choose good (all of us).

1 Corinthians 15:20-26
“But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order : Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death.”
We must recall that Paul said there is a resurrection of the righteous and the wicked.
Acts 24:15 “and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.”

And if we continue to quote Paul:

1Co 15:39-45 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

So, yes, you are right, the resurrection will mean different things to different people--some will have the glory of the sun, some the moon, and some the stars (I read this to mean in terms of our understanding of how much light is produced, this is not a science discussion.) So, the resurrection starts with Christ and ends with the sons of perdition, which brings me to the next point you did not answer...

What do you mean by "rewards".

disciple

04-19-2017, 06:42 AM

[QUOTE]

I completely agree with this, that not all will be "saved" in terms of exaltation, but in overcoming death which is a type of salvation (unless you think over-coming death is no-biggy ;) ) So, since we all start out "saved" from this death, why do you disagree that we begin pure and clean, for doesn't Christ's atonement cover our fall until we actually do sin? (Or do believe babies who die at birth go to hell?) Are we all sinful in nature? Yes, but are we also children of God which gives us the ability to choose good (all of us).

And if we continue to quote Paul:

1Co 15:39-45 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

So, yes, you are right, the resurrection will mean different things to different people--some will have the glory of the sun, some the moon, and some the stars (I read this to mean in terms of our understanding of how much light is produced, this is not a science discussion.) So, the resurrection starts with Christ and ends with the sons of perdition, which brings me to the next point you did not answer...

What do you mean by "rewards".

Hi Julie,

I will refer you 1 Cor. 3:12-15 "Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."

BigJulie

04-19-2017, 12:38 PM

Hi Julie,

I will refer you 1 Cor. 3:12-15 "Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."

This just reiterated that there will be "rewards"--but what do you see as these rewards--what "work" will endure? and what "reward" will they "receive" through this "work"?

(I am restating the scripture verse with quotations lest you accuse me of stating that they "earn" some type of "reward" for their "work.")

disciple

04-19-2017, 12:58 PM

This just reiterated that there will be "rewards"--but what do you see as these rewards--what "work" will endure? and what "reward" will they "receive" through this "work"?

(I am restating the scripture verse with quotations lest you accuse me of stating that they "earn" some type of "reward" for their "work.")

Hi Julie,

I believe the "works" will be the one's mentioned in Eph. 2:10 "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." Just what the nature of these works will be I can't accurately say, probably different for each believer. As far as rewards are concerned, my earthly concept of what rewards are is probably not the same as God's. Mat. 10:42 states," and if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones who is my disciple, truly I tell you, that person will certainly not lose their reward." I don't know what this reward will be, do you?

BigJulie

04-19-2017, 01:38 PM

alanmolstad

04-19-2017, 07:10 PM

I do not believe I understand all of the rewards,....

Whats hard to understand?

According to Mormonism, the married guys get to have sex with lots and lots of young girls.

and their wives?

Um...er...they get to keep their mouths shut and cant say anything about it?

BigJulie

04-19-2017, 09:32 PM

Whats hard to understand?

According to Mormonism, the married guys get to have sex with lots and lots of young girls.

and their wives?

Um...er...they get to keep their mouths shut and cant say anything about it?

Case in point for my last scripture--you say you can see....

alanmolstad

04-20-2017, 03:56 AM

Case in point for my last scripture--you say you can see....

while I can see a few things, I also can read a few things too...

LDS Leaders Still Believe There Will Be Polygamy in Heaven

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/ldsleadersbelievepolygamyinheaven.htm

alanmolstad

04-20-2017, 04:54 AM

BigJulie

04-20-2017, 07:13 AM

but is is true, that when asked about the afterlife not many Mormon women really are told that much by their leadership or husbands....other than just "family forever" type stuff.

I guess they just dont like to bring up the "Harem" concept too much it seems?

But from personal experience I can tell you that I used to work with a young Mormon crew of guys in Id and they did tend to glance at their wife's friends and contemplate their own heavenly roster...:eek:

Why not just admit like Disciple that you don't know what the "rewards" are and that you see Abraham as an adulterer and so have no understanding of the promises made to the house of Israel?

To a hammer, everything is a nail. When was the last time you viewed pornography?

alanmolstad

04-20-2017, 03:39 PM

......you see Abraham as an adulterer

.... as for Abraham?

Lets check-

"a·dul·ter·y

NOUN

voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a person who is not his or her spouse:

so yes, Abraham did commit adultery...

BigJulie

04-20-2017, 03:59 PM

.... as for Abraham?

Lets check-

"a·dul·ter·y

NOUN

voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a person who is not his or her spouse:

so yes, Abraham did commit adultery...

Yes, I already knew you believed that and so I just made an ***ertion you had clarified before regarding your belief about Abraham.

As I said, a hammer sees everything as a nail. So, since you are pointing fingers at Mormon men and others (Abraham), when was the last time you viewed pornography?

alanmolstad

04-20-2017, 04:29 PM

, when was the last time you viewed pornography?what is this fixation you got with prono today?

Why do you ask?...you got some photos you are pushing or something?....( I have had to clear a few prono spams as of late since I became listed here as the "Super" Mod.)

anyway...

cuz it's kinda weird .

alanmolstad

04-20-2017, 04:36 PM

Yes, I already knew you believed that and so I just made an ***ertion you had clarified before regarding your belief about Abraham.

a strange sentence.....

if you want me to be more forthright about the sins of Abraham?...just start a topic on it and I will be happy to jump right in....

trust me, Abraham and his whole family tree had a lot of issues...

BigJulie

04-20-2017, 05:28 PM

what is this fixation you got with prono today?

Why do you ask?...you got some photos you are pushing or something?....( I have had to clear a few prono spams as of late since I became listed here as the "Super" Mod.)

anyway...

cuz it's kinda weird .

Guess what, I have also seen the virus on here--but I also know that those sites target those that use them. Hence, I don't get those kind of spams on my computer.

The reason I ask is because it is hypocritical to point the fingers without confessing your own sins and second, because how you view women speaks to your perceptions of other men.

So, is that all you have done is clear "spam" and if not, when was the last time you viewed pornography?

alanmolstad

04-20-2017, 05:34 PM

"spam" .....?

Tell you what...

if you want to know what we consider "spam" here...you can just repeat the same question one more time and get a first hand lesson....

BigJulie

04-20-2017, 07:24 PM

Tell you what...

if you want to know what we consider "spam" here...you can just repeat the same question one more time and get a first hand lesson....

I'll take that as your answer as saying you have recently viewed porn and not just as spam--otherwise you would have categorically claimed otherwise.

alanmolstad

04-20-2017, 07:48 PM

I'll take that as your answer as saying you have recently viewed porn and not just as spam--otherwise you would have categorically claimed otherwise.

I run a tight ship BigJulie...
Im as strict on both Christian and non-Christian as far as the rules go, enforcing them without prejudice regarding religion...

I don't really care what you say about religious leaders, but you will remain respectful to your fellow board members.

Try to learn this lesson, if you want to continue posting here.

BigJulie

04-20-2017, 08:13 PM

I run a tight ship BigJulie...
Im as strict on both Christian and non-Christian as far as the rules go, enforcing them without prejudice regarding religion...

I don't really care what you say about religious leaders, but you will remain respectful to your fellow board members.

Try to learn this lesson, if you want to continue posting here.

I once posted on another site like this one. The "mod" of that site also spoke about adultery and pedophilia about Mormons just like you. He spent so much time talking about it, I finally called him out on being an adulterer. He never denied it and then a few days later stated that "God had forgiven him for his sins." He waited a few months and then quietly banned me from the site. He also proceeded to erase all of my posts (not unlike you just did.)--(notice I am not talking about anyone on this site-- I am just speaking of my experience with "Christians" the way you speak about your experience with Mormons --your post at 7:13 am , #364,this morning.)

Later, he admitted he had committed adultery.

My point is, when a man goes on and on about sex the way you do, well--it is not hard to read right between the lines and understand where your perspective comes from.

You can erase this post as well Alan, but you will know that I know and if I know, I absolutely know that God knows of your hypocrisy.

alanmolstad

04-20-2017, 08:26 PM

you are just digging a hole for yourself today I guess....

alanmolstad

04-22-2017, 08:36 PM

I think we all saw that coming....

dberrie2000

04-26-2017, 05:46 AM

Hi Julie,

I believe the "works" will be the one's mentioned in Eph. 2:10 "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." Just what the nature of these works will be I can't accurately say, probably different for each believer. As far as rewards are concerned, my earthly concept of what rewards are is probably not the same as God's. Mat. 10:42 states," and if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones who is my disciple, truly I tell you, that person will certainly not lose their reward." I don't know what this reward will be, do you?

Hi Disciple:

I'm not sure how to answer that either, but Christ does connect such acts with His grace unto life:

Matthew 25:31-46---King James Version (KJV)
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Christian

04-28-2017, 06:17 PM

'biggie' posted:

Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
God expects nothing from us TO MAKE US HIS CLEANSED CHILDREN. My own children are expected to do nothing to BE my children. They could even fall into a cesspool and REMAIN MY CHILDREN, though they might SMELL BAD.

But as teens they WERE expected to mow the lawn, carry out the trash, make their beds, clean their rooms etc, NOT TO BE MY KIDS, NOT TO GET INTO OUR HOUSE, but because it was their DUTY to do so out of love for their parents.

We don't have to "DO STUFF" to 'earn our way to heaven. or to 'help God out' in getting us there. We ARE told to do stuff because we LOVE GOD, NOT TO 'get into heaven' or to 'be allowed into our home,'

IF you believe that YOU must 'clean up your act' to be one of God's children, then your man-made religion has taught you falsehoods. YOU have nothing 'spotless' in YOURSELF to offer Him as a sacrifice. ONLY JESUS qualified to do that.

There is nothing to restore. The TRUTH, THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST has been present for about 2,000 years now, and HIS BODY the church HAS NEVER DIED, OR EVEN BEEN WEAKENED.

There have been MANY APOSTASIES in Christianity just as there have been in joey smith's own religion (If you would like a list of 150 or so of them, I can provide it for you. . .I've posted it to this forum before.

BUT THERE HAS NEVER ONCE BEEN ANY COMPLETE APOSTASY, any "loss" of our authority, OR of our scriptures OR of our RIGHT TO ACT FOR AND PROCLAIM GOD'S GOOD NEWS TO THE WORLD.

But then smith's religion has changed with the public sentiments of the times. They keep trying to become more like mainline Christianity, while still believing in a 'spirit-brother-of-satan-'jesus'. But it will never work.

Blacks seem to no longer 'bear the mark of Cain' and now they can be part of your religion's 'priesthood,' even though previous presidents of your religion have called them 'lower' than whites, and stated CLEARLY that they could never hold your 'priesthood.'

Your cult has lied to you, Julie

Nice, but not a scripturally backed.

PROVE IT! You cannot demonstrate by SCRIPTURE OR BY HISTORY that Jesus' church ever failed to exist, ever lost ANYTHING AT ALL (not their authority, not their scriptures, not the Gospel), OR that joey smith was anything more than a hack religionist heretic and a conman.

But don't ask a mormon. That would be like asking a white supremacist if white supremacy is right or wrong. The answer is built into the conned cultists.

While we are saved by grace, he extends his grace to those who love him; hence, God commands us to love him.

And to CHRISTIANS, GOD GIVES US THE LOVE for Him. To you heathens someone ELSE gives you emotions towards false gods like evil spirit-brothers-of-satan.

Act 10:34 -35 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

And JUST HOW can YOU work ANYTHING RIGHTEOUSNESS on your own? Jesus accepts EVERY PERSON EVERYWHERE who HAS FAITH IN THE REAL JESUS. Believing in satanic 'spirit-brothers-of-satan' is NOT righeousness at all.

BUT

IF you have FAITH IN THE REAL Jesus (not the demon of the mormons), your FAITH is counted as righteousness. Not your 'good works,' but FAITH:

Rom 4:5-8

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin."
NKJV

Sorry, but you can't earn 'brownie points' with God by 'doing stuff.' On your own, you have nothing to offer but your own filthy rags.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

(Notice, it is referring to the book of life?_

And the 'works' we CHRISTIANS are judged by are works of RIGHTEOUSNESS that HE works through us. They are not our own. WE are not our own. WE belong to HIM. The REAL Jesus, not your demonic mormon one.

Christian

05-03-2017, 02:08 PM

Can't PROVE IT, can you?

dberrie2000

05-04-2017, 04:20 AM

You cannot demonstrate by SCRIPTURE OR BY HISTORY that Jesus' church ever failed to exist, ever lost ANYTHING AT ALL ...

Then perhaps you could explain for us the need for a Reformation--and a need for numerous new denominations.

Acts 3:21--King James Version (KJV)
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of res***ution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Why would there be a "res***ution of all things" if not anything at all had been lost?

alanmolstad

05-04-2017, 05:46 AM

dberrie2000

05-05-2017, 04:45 AM

there is one body, but many members....

the hand is not the foot....nor does it really even slightly look like the foot on the outside.

But underneath you do find that both the hand and the foot are all part of the same body with many different parts.

Now should the church feel bad that not all members are under the same official org?

All the parts are members of the same body.

Could you give us a cite where God accepted any denomination other than the one found in the Biblical NT:

Ephesians 2:20---King James Version (KJV)
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Where do we find numerous denominations which God accepted in the Biblical NT?

Jesus himself set this in motion when the 12 one day came to him and told him that they had seen another preacher talking about Jesus and the 12 tried to stop him from spreading the message of Jesus because that guy was not ***ociated with the 12.

Jesus interrupts and tells his 12 men not to do that.

The moment Jesus said this, it opened up the body of the Christian faith to the opportunity of other people to start up their own ministry and to enter into the life of spreading the word of God to others and not have any need at all in even the slightest way of being ***ociated with anyone else.

So this means that if I wanted to, I have the ability under Jesus own words, to simply pick up my Bible and head out into the world and spread the message i have to share.

i dont need to be approved by anyone.

I dont need to have went to any school first.

I dont need to be given any "official" permission by any known church body or org.

I can simply just go out the door, or sit at my computer and spread the word!

No one questions the fact you can do what you want--only the NT church had living, mortal apostles and prophets which they were founded upon. I believe Jesus's comment was those who were doing His work were not against them--it does not preclude the fact Christ had but one denomination in the Biblical NT--and that denomination was founded upon the living, mortal apostles and prophets.

alanmolstad

05-06-2017, 04:00 AM

denominations are not different religions..
Denominations are not different faiths.

We are all part of the same boidy,,,but that as with a human body, the body of Christ has many different parts.

many parts united in the whole body.

This fits with the story I told about in the Bible where the 12 came to Jesus and told them that they had tried to stop of man from teaching because he was not connected to Jesus or the 12.

But Jesus interrupts them and tells them to not stop the man, for Jesus knew that the whole body has many members, and not all are going to be the same part.

So Jesus has no problem with a different denomination, He was only interested in not stopping people from spreading the faith....

dberrie2000

05-06-2017, 06:12 AM

denominations are not different religions.. Denominations are not different faiths.

Please do explain how the Catholic and the Protestant denominations are of the same faith and religion.

If that were so--why was there a need for a Reformation--where new denominations were started--with a different theology?

alanmolstad

05-06-2017, 07:54 AM

Please do explain how the Catholic and the Protestant denominations are of the same faith and religion.

well...lets see...

I am baptized in the Catholic church...Im also baptized in the Lutheran church....raised within the Lutheran church, attended Lutheran conformation cl***, and Im confirmed in the Anglican church....
Over the years and we moved from one place to another, I have attended as my church home many different denominations.
I have also attended many different Christian churches over the years as a guest or guest speaker.

So I have done the needed research on this topic to be able to speak with some knowledge on the issue.

What you learn is that it's all the same Christian religion that you find wherever you go...
Different music
Different ways of worship....some more relaxed, some more straight-laced.
Different ways to be organized,

But the faith?......all the same.

the core teachings?....all the same.

many differences on the outsides?.....to be sure!

But one faith.

The body is made of many parts, many members, all they who look so different on the outsides.
But inside they share the same faith....

alanmolstad

05-06-2017, 08:03 AM

so in the real world it works out like this...

I take a member of my family to catholic churchj, and there I sit and listen to the guy speaking, and within most sermons I dont find any errors or much to disagree with,.

So I agree with all that is taught?....nope.

I attended Bible school at a non-Catholic denomination, and listened every day to the instructors.

So I agreed with all that was taught?......nope.

I attended for years a non-denomination church in Seattle. I even got to speak there in ftont on thousands of people.

So did I agree with every thing their preacher said on every topic?......nope.

I had a friend for a while as a teenager who was in the SDA church, so I attended their Bible lessons on the end Times.

So did I agree with all of their views?.......nope.

and.......

I have been married to the same girl for over 37 years

So do she and i always agree ?..............nope.

So what holds it all together?.......love.

alanmolstad

05-06-2017, 08:34 AM

-why was there a need for a Reformation-
You have asked this same question before, and my answer tio it has not changed.

I attended years and years of Lutheran Sunday school, as well as fully attending Lutheran confirmation cl***.....so the topic as to why the Lutheran church got started has come up in my life a few times.

The answer is all built on the The 95 Theses.
They are the heart of the split between the different protestant and catholic church.

to understand the split all you need to do is read from the The 95 Theses.

It was over money.
It was over fund raising.

all of the split within the two branches of the christian church ad at it center that way the catholic church raised funds for building projects.

The manner used to raise funds strayed over into weird non-bible teachings that the people objected to, and Luther objected to.

For additional reading on the topic behind the split, here is a link -
http://www.history.com/topics/martin-luther-and-the-95-theses

alanmolstad

05-06-2017, 09:30 AM

so why are there so many different branches of the christian church?

The answer is that this situation is clearly the way God wanted it as seen clearly at MARK 9:38

"Teacher," said John, "we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us."

This is the very first sign that a new denomination of the church was starting up that was not connected to the Apostles.
This also would have been the perfect moment for Jesus to step in and make it very clear that there could be only one branch of the true church and it had to be under the authority of and based on the foundation of the Apostles authority.

yet look at what Jesus does!

He forbids his men from getting in the way of this stranger!!!!!!

This means that this other guy, who all on his own has started up his own ministry, actually stands on equal footing as the ministries that claim to be in the footsteps of the Apostles!

So back to our question , "Why are there so many different branches to the Christian church?
The answer is found at 1 Corinthians 12

For the body does not consist of one part, but of many. 15If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body

So......

so now we have our answer!

We find different branches in God's church because we are different as people.....just as the human body has many different parts, so to does the Body of Christ have different parts that are united by faith into the same body.

its that simple....it's also God's design.

dberrie2000

05-06-2017, 12:53 PM

well...lets see...

I am baptized in the Catholic church...Im also baptized in the Lutheran church....raised within the Lutheran church, attended Lutheran conformation cl***, and Im confirmed in the Anglican church....
Over the years and we moved from one place to another, I have attended as my church home many different denominations.
I have also attended many different Christian churches over the years as a guest or guest speaker.

So I have done the needed research on this topic to be able to speak with some knowledge on the issue.

What you learn is that it's all the same Christian religion that you find wherever you go...
Different music
Different ways of worship....some more relaxed, some more straight-laced.
Different ways to be organized,

But the faith?......all the same.

the core teachings?....all the same.

Protestants and Catholics are the same religion and the same faith--with the same core teachings. We'll have to remember than, Alan.

alanmolstad

05-06-2017, 01:59 PM

Protestants and Catholics are the same religion and the same faith--with the same core teachings. We'll have to remember than, Alan.

let me know if you have any questions...

dberrie2000

05-08-2017, 03:05 AM

let me know if you have any questions...

Your statement that Protestants and Catholics are of the same faith and religion--with the same core teachings--just about says it all.

alanmolstad

05-08-2017, 04:23 AM

Your statement that Protestants and Catholics are of the same faith and religion--with the same core teachings--just about says it all.

Like I said, you can go from one church to the next and while they have their own individual ways of being organized and do have teachings that I may disagree with, what you also see is that the core teachings of the Christian faith are found in both major branches of the christian church...

The way I see it it's like this..

For the essentials we have unity
For the nonessential we have diversity
and in all things we show charity .....

The hand is not lesser in the body just because it's not the foot....
Nor is the foot more of the body than the hand.

This does not mean that the hand or the foot cant serve their own purpose and do things that the other simply can not do by design.
But it also mean that both the hand and the foot are of the one body...

dberrie2000

05-09-2017, 06:22 AM

Like I said, you can go from one church to the next and while they have their own individual ways of being organized and do have teachings that I may disagree with, what you also see is that the core teachings of the Christian faith are found in both major branches of the christian church...

The way I see it it's like this..

I'm not questioning your right to see it whatever way you will--but the comment the Protestants and the Catholics share the same faith and religion is a little naive, IMO.

disciple

05-09-2017, 09:42 AM

I'm not questioning your right to see it whatever way you will--but the comment the Protestants and the Catholics share the same faith and religion is a little naive, IMO.

As someone who went to a catholic grade school for 8 years and became a born again Christian later in life, and now worships in a Baptist church, I can tell you Catholics and Protestants do not share the same faith or religion.

dberrie2000

05-09-2017, 09:53 AM

As someone who went to a catholic grade school for 8 years and became a born again Christian later in life, and now worships in a Baptist church, I can tell you Catholics and Protestants do not share the same faith or religion.

Hi Disciple:

I know that--and I don't understand the comments to the contrary.

I attended a Baptist theology school for 2 years--and I can tell you for a fact--they do not share the same religion nor faith the Catholics do. That's the very cause of the Reformation--and one of the reasons for the rise of Protestantism.

My wife was a Baptist for a number of years--as are most of our converts, here in the South. Good people--I have a big respect for them. No one better bad mouth Baptists around my wife--they will catch a heel if they do.

Christian

05-09-2017, 01:56 PM

berry posted:

[QUOTE] Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
there is one body, but many members....

the hand is not the foot....nor does it really even slightly look like the foot on the outside.

But underneath you do find that both the hand and the foot are all part of the same body with many different parts.

Now should the church feel bad that not all members are under the same official org?All the parts are members of the same body.

Could you give us a cite where God accepted any denomination other than the one found in the Biblical NT:

Ephesians 2:20---King James Version (KJV)[/QUOTE

You mean like the 'church of the Ephesians?' and the 'church of the laodeceans?' Like that?

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Where do we find numerous denominations which God accepted in the Biblical NT

You mean like the lds strangites and the fundamentalists, etc? THEY have their own "12 apostles" JUST LIKE THE UTAH MORMONS DO. So do each of the 150 or so DIFFERENT smith-group denominations.

Why should we BELIEVE the claims that YOUR denomination makes? THEY say YOU are the fakes. . .why should we believe ANY of you?

No one questions the fact you can do what you want--only the NT church had living, mortal apostles and prophets which they were founded upon

You left out JESUS Whom the entire thing was founded upon. WHERE IS YOUR 'living, mortal JESUS?' Same place as HIS Apostles and prophets? IN HEAVEN?
Your cult's teaching is bogus heresy.

alanmolstad

05-10-2017, 05:15 AM

As someone who went to a catholic grade school for 8 years and became a born again Christian later in life, and now worships in a Baptist church, I can tell you Catholics and Protestants do not share the same faith or religion.

Use the following- Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist, Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, Buddhist, Moon's, Anglican,
and fill in the following blank questions.

so.....trinity is not taught in____ church?

So the fact that Jesus is both God and man is not taught in ___ church?

So the very real death of Jesus is not taught in ____ church?

So the resurrection of Christ is not taught in ____ church?

So the ascending of Christ of Christ into heaven is not taught in ____ church?

So the teaching that there is but "One God" is not taught in ____ church?

So the teaching that Jesus was born of the virgin Mary is not taught in ____ church?

So the teaching that one day Christ will return is not taught in ____ church?

Here is the deal,
I cant speak for the type of religious teachings you may have received in your past....and it is very true that within many churches they try to really put down other members of the Body of Christ....this tendency to look down on others actually goes back to the very beginnings of our church and it is the reason we are all reminded in the Bible that we are all members of the same body , yet very different from each other too.

Yet, if you allow yourself a chance to look past the differences over the debatable matters and seek to understand what truly binds the church into one body, it is then you see that what unites us is far greater than what divides us.

It's the same in every family.....for we tend to see only the problem issues with our own brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers, until that day when we see our family being attacked....and it is then we see that what binds us to them is still very strong.

we are told that by our "love" you will know us by.
And this type of "love" is greater and comes out as being very strong....a lot stronger then the bickering voices within the family.

The reason I asked the questions above and provided the names was to remind people that there truly are different religions out there, there truly are religions that are not seen as Christian at all.
And while there are differences between many groups, we should not attempt to cl*** every disagreement on every issue as being all equal.

I may disagree with what this or that Christian church teaches on the role of women or gays in ministry, yet I also have to keep in mind that this is far less of importance than disagreeing over the Trinity or the Resurrection.

disciple

05-10-2017, 07:50 AM

Hi Alan,

The problem I have with Catholicism is false teaching and as you know from the scriptures we are to beware and avoid false teachers. I don't think you would disagree with that.
Some of the problems includes the false teaching concerning Mary. She is given the power only God can have, such as being able to hear and answer prayers, position as co-redeemer, etc. The pope, the saints, works, mandatory sacraments, etc.,etc. These can't be considered tolerable differences.

alanmolstad

05-10-2017, 06:33 PM

I remind people to use charity when looking at other members of the body of Christ...

The foot should not consider the hand as being lesser of the body...But the foot does not have to wish it was the hand..

The foot has every right to feel happy its a foot.

In the same way, I do not think lesser of other members of the faith just because they have different views on many issues than my own...
But I can feel happy I have different views

dberrie2000

05-12-2017, 05:26 AM

You mean like the lds strangites and the fundamentalists, etc? THEY have their own "12 apostles"

Just a point here--it's the ones who do not have the foundation which cannot qualify.

Then--there are the pretenders.

The Lord's church has this foundation--the living, mortal apostles and prophets--Jesus Christ being the Chief Corner Stone:

Ephesians 2:20--King James Version (KJV)
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

All who do not possess that foundation cannot qualify as the Lord's church--they are automatically eliminated as to their claim to be the Lord's church.

Christian

05-18-2017, 01:17 PM

Just a point here--it's the ones who do not have the foundation which cannot qualify.

Then--there are the pretenders.

The Lord's church has this foundation--the living, mortal apostles and prophets--Jesus Christ being the Chief Corner Stone:

Ephesians 2:20--King James Version (KJV)
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

All who do not possess that foundation cannot qualify as the Lord's church--they are automatically eliminated as to their claim to be the Lord's church.

You left out the MOST IMPORTANT PART of the foundation. . .THE CHIEF CORNERSTONE JESUS CHRIST.

IF you think this p***age REQUIRES Christ's church to continue to have LIVING MORTAL Apostles, then WHERE IS YOUR LIVING MORTAL JESUS CHRIST? Hidden in the basement of your SLC temple building?

IF your 'apostles' have to be LIVING ALIVE MORTALLY ON EARTH, THEN your 'jesus' must be too!

BUT

OF COURSE HE IS NOT. You can PRETEND that those your particular cult has chosen are "apostles" but your cult CANNOT SUCCESSFULLY PRETEND to chose a 'jesus.

'NOT VERY CONSISTENT, ARE YOU? You are just like the 'fundamentalist mormons' and the 'strangites' THEY don't have a 'living mortal jesus' either, just like your group.

Erundur

05-18-2017, 02:37 PM

You left out the MOST IMPORTANT PART of the foundation. . .THE CHIEF CORNERSTONE JESUS CHRIST.
No he didn't. He included him twice.

IF your 'apostles' have to be LIVING ALIVE MORTALLY ON EARTH, THEN your 'jesus' must be too!
Non sequitur. That's just an arbitrary rule you made up.

dberrie2000

05-19-2017, 05:34 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Just a point here--it's the ones who do not have the foundation which cannot qualify.

Then--there are the pretenders.

The Lord's church has this foundation--the living, mortal apostles and prophets--Jesus Christ being the Chief Corner Stone:

Ephesians 2:20--King James Version (KJV)
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

All who do not possess that foundation cannot qualify as the Lord's church--they are automatically eliminated as to their claim to be the Lord's church.

You left out the MOST IMPORTANT PART of the foundation. . .THE CHIEF CORNERSTONE JESUS CHRIST.

Please reread my post.

IF you think this p***age REQUIRES Christ's church to continue to have LIVING MORTAL Apostles, then WHERE IS YOUR LIVING MORTAL JESUS CHRIST?

The living, mortal apostles continued after the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Acts 16:4-5--King James Version (KJV)
4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.
5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.

Christian

05-19-2017, 10:56 AM

Please reread my post.

The living, mortal apostles continued after the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Acts 16:4-5--King James Version (KJV)
4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.
5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.

ALL SORTS of Christians continued after the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. . .AND they all physically died WITH NO PROVISION TO REPLACE ANY OF THOSE INDIVIDUALS EXCEPT JUDAS. NEVER did Jesus REQUIRE that HIS CHURCH have 'mortal apostles' as a CONTINUING PART OF HIS EARTHLY CHURCH

Joey smith MADE THAT UP. You can find NOTHING FROM GOD IN HIS WORD (THE BIBLE) to support you.

Do you think Jesus 'just forgot' to set something up?

That joey smith was SMARTER than Jesus?

BTW JESUS continues TO THIS DAY, at the right hand of His Father, just as the REAL apostles continue TO THIS DAY IN HEAVEN.

Just because you 'call' a dozen or so folks 'apostles' or 'seventies' or 'swishy-swashers' DOES NOT MAKE THEM BECOME THOSE THINGS OR IN ANY WAY 'SPECIAL' IN THE EYES OF GOD.

All it does is show the BIBLICAL IGNORANCE of those folks who participate in that junk. BOTH those who CALL them those things, AND those who CALL THEMSELVES those things. BIBLICAL IGNORANCE is RAMPANT in your cult.

Phoenix

05-22-2017, 07:36 AM

BTW JESUS continues TO THIS DAY, at the right hand of His Father, just as the REAL apostles continue TO THIS DAY IN HEAVEN.

what active role do those dead apostles in heaven take in directing Christianity down here, today?

or maybe you believe that Peter, Thomas, Jude, Paul, etc. come down from heaven to tell the catholics and protestants and orthodox what to do and what not to do, what to teach and what not to teach?

alanmolstad

05-22-2017, 04:41 PM

what active role do those dead apostles in heaven take in directing Christianity down here, today?

?

From the text it seems clear that the church in heaven is very active in both witnessing the events going on here, as well as talking with the Lord and asking him to take steps.

They seem fully aware of life on earth, and what God was about to do and seem to be intervening or asking the Lord to move forward with the plans that they seem to know He has for the ones on the earth. .

Phoenix

05-22-2017, 06:56 PM

From the text it seems clear that the church in heaven is very active in both witnessing the events going on here, as well as talking with the Lord and asking him to take steps.

They seem fully aware of life on earth, and what God was about to do and seem to be intervening or asking the Lord to move forward with the plans that they seem to know He has for the ones on the earth. .

so it's kinda like the catholic church's belief that dead christians are up in heaven doing stuff to intercede for living people, trying to convince God to do this or that for them?

my other question is: if God doesn't want any living apostles down here anymore to run things, does that explain the chaos and anarchy that exist in christendom? if God didn't give apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, etc. to the church for the purpose of continuously helping to unify our faith, for the work of the ministry, and for the edification of the saints until they have a perfect knowledge of the Son of God approaching the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ,

then what hope do we have of someday being no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men?

what successes in the past 1800 years on the part of those dead apostles can we point to, to show that they've been up there doing to stuff to move christianity along on its way to that idealistic goal that Paul told the Ephesian saints about ?

alanmolstad

05-22-2017, 07:16 PM

so it's kinda like the catholic church's belief that dead christians are up in heaven doing stuff to intercede for living people, trying to convince God to do this or that for them?

I cant really say what the catholic position is, ?

But in the book of Revelation we do see that the dead in Christ are aware of stuff as I listed above.
And that they do seem to be very involved in asking the Lord to do stuff.

alanmolstad

05-22-2017, 07:30 PM

....

my other question is: if God doesn't want any living apostles down here anymore to run things, does that explain the chaos and anarchy that exist in christendom?

What we see is a church united on the essentials and open to diversity on the side issues...as it has always been.

There is a story in the Bible of the problems Paul ran into and how he had to compromise to get over the hump of the disagreements he ran into with the church in Jerusalem.
But he was also able to stand up and disagree with Peter to his face too.

While we are lucky in the church to have our church built on the foundation of the Apostles and their works , we also know that it's the Holy Spirit that guides the church not men, nor positions that men hold.

What we find very clearly taught inn the Bible is that Jesus did not want us to be united with all members forced to submit to the leadership of the apostles .
That is very clearly taught in the story of the 12 attempting to stop of man from doing works in the name of Christ only because he did not follow the 12.

Had Jesus wanted the church to be united under the leadership of the apostles that would have been the correct moment to teach that concept.
But rather that supporting the idea, Jesus kicks open the door and holds that any of us, all on our own, without any type of authority over us at all, can be mighty blessed.

Yes, the Christian Church is built on the foundation of the works of the apostles .

and we in the church today, each Christian, shares now in the work of spreading the message of Christ that they began.

alanmolstad

05-22-2017, 07:38 PM

what successes in the past 1800 years on the part of those dead apostles can we point to, to show that they've been up there doing to stuff to move christianity along on its way to that idealistic goal that Paul told the Ephesian saints about ?

a child is born on the other side of the world from the place where Jesus was born....thousands of years later.

and another person is born and is seduced into joining a false religion that stems from the invented ideas of a sexual pervert who got gunned down because he could not keep from sniffing around younger and younger girls.

and yet.....

The first person is able to offer answers and hope to the 2nd.

That is all the real proof I have that the work of God reaching out though the Body of Christ (the Christian church)continues to this very day.

Phoenix

05-22-2017, 10:55 PM

a child is born on the other side of the world from the place where Jesus was born....thousands of years later.

and another person is born and is seduced into joining a false religion that stems from the invented ideas of a sexual pervert who got gunned down because he could not keep from sniffing around younger and younger girls.

and yet.....

The first person is able to offer answers and hope to the 2nd.

That is all the real proof I have that the work of God reaching out though the Body of Christ (the Christian church)continues to this very day.

that isn't very substantial proof. if that's the only thing those apostles have been able to do after being up there for 1800 years, maybe they aren't trying very hard?

Phoenix

05-22-2017, 11:03 PM

I cant really say what the catholic position is, ?

it is pretty much like i said it is--which is pretty close to what you believe: saints who have died are up in heaven pleading to God to extend mercy to some of the people who are still alive down here. that's why catholics pray to certain dead saints, and to the virgin mary, basically asking them to pe***ion god on the behalf of people they care about. that is known as intercession of the saints, if i recall correctly. the vast majority of protestants consider this doctrine to be heresy and false.

so while you may not support praying to dead saints, you do support the idea that they are up there working on god to get him to cut people some slack. of course, that doesn't really support your idea that because some dead apostles are up there doing that, it's proof that Jesus didn't want His apostles to keep running things down here as living beings. the fact that they tried to keep a succession going by replacing ones who had died, pretty much refutes your idea.

But in the book of Revelation we do see that the dead in Christ are aware of stuff as I listed above.
And that they do seem to be very involved in asking the Lord to do stuff.
it looks like your beliefs on this subject are part catholic, and part mormon.

congratulations

dberrie2000

05-23-2017, 04:51 AM

ALL SORTS of Christians continued after the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. . .AND they all physically died WITH NO PROVISION TO REPLACE ANY OF THOSE INDIVIDUALS EXCEPT JUDAS.

That does not explain why the apostleship continued:

Acts 14:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,

alanmolstad

05-23-2017, 04:56 AM

it is pretty much like i said it is.....
im usually right on most issues I write on...
The Scripture gives us a limited amount of information as to what the church in heaven is up to, but there are a few things we can see in the text that is true and can be trusted.

The church in heaven is watching us here on the earth.

The church in heaven knows about the current conditions of things.

The church in heaven knows also the plan of God.

The church in heaven is interacting with the Lord, and seems to be pleading with the Lord to take action .

You learn this when you look at what i think are the two best examples in the Bible dealing with the current state of the church in heaven.
The story of the Mt of Transfiguration.
And the stroy of the church in heaven that is talked about in the book of Revelation.

I do not count the story of the raising of the spirit of Samuel as I dont think that story is clear enough to teach anyone anything about the state of the dead.

But from the other two accounts of where the dead do speak we can learn what i have stated above.

Now as to the questions, "Do the friends and family I have in heaven watch me?.....my answer would be that this is likely very true based on what the bible does say about being surrounded by a great company of witnesses.

"Do the friends and family talk to the Lord about me?".......Could be, but no clear verse goes into that type of detail.

The list of related questions we might ask are endless i would guess, but we have to answer these types of matters with solid truths backed by the bible, and there is not all that much to use as the bible seems to be making a point to avoid this topic except for two very short examples.

alanmolstad

05-23-2017, 05:05 AM

..... the fact that they tried to keep a succession going by replacing ones who had died, pretty much refutes your idea.

The 12, or in this case the 11 did try to replace the one guy who hanged himself, this is true.

Why did they do this?......not told it was ever God's idea.

Does the bible say this replacement was ever for one moment God's idea?......nope!

Did the 11 guys dicide who would be the replacement by just drawing straws, (flip the coin , etc)?...yes.
There is no claim that the 11 make that God was incharge of this decision, nor do the 11 try to claim that "God picked him"...

Rather what happened was that the 11 guys did this and then?......zip...nothing happens later..

This 'replacement' drifts away into history and is quickly forgotten.

An old saying is that "The proof of the pudding in in the tasting".....that you find out how things are going by the testing and seeing how things go later.
and in this case, because the history of the replacement shows us that he simply was not important at all to the church.

so that kinda does make it "case-closed' as to the idea that the "Apostle" was an office that gets p***ed on to others.

it's also interesting to remember that Jesus actually asked more than just the 12 to "Follow me".
Jesus did ask others to join his mission and stay with him...so there is nothing to the claim that the number "12" was all important so that after the loss of one guy they needed to replace him for some reason.

Phoenix

05-23-2017, 01:45 PM

The 12, or in this case the 11 did try to replace the one guy who hanged himself, this is true.

Why did they do this?......not told it was ever God's idea.

Does the bible say this replacement was ever for one moment God's idea?......nope!

Did the 11 guys dicide who would be the replacement by just drawing straws, (flip the coin , etc)?...yes.
There is no claim that the 11 make that God was incharge of this decision, nor do the 11 try to claim that "God picked him"...

Rather what happened was that the 11 guys did this and then?......zip...nothing happens later..

This 'replacement' drifts away into history and is quickly forgotten.

....the history of the replacement shows us that he simply was not important at all to the church.

so that kinda does make it "case-closed' as to the idea that the "Apostle" was an office that gets p***ed on to others.
...

so you believe that the decision to replace judas iscariot with a new apostle, was not what Jesus wanted them to do.

and you believe that ceasing to have apostles leading the church, didn't have any effect on the church--the loss of apostles running things didn't result in false doctrines flourishing, and in increased schisms and contentions among christians?

alanmolstad

05-23-2017, 04:00 PM

so you believe that the decision to replace judas iscariot with a new apostle, was not what Jesus wanted them to do.

The Text clearly tells of how the 12 tried to get this other guy to stop doing works in the lord's name only because he was not following the 12 and was off all on his own.
The way Jesus tells the 12 to not do that in the future teaches us that there really is no need to be under the authority of the 12 at all...regardless of how badly the 12 wanted to be important.

the Text tells us the 11 who survived the death of Jesus did draw straws to pick a replacement for the one guy that killed himself, but we sure dont find any proof that this was God's command.
It was perhaps predicted, but I dont think we can find any place where God informed the church to always replace one of the 12 when they die.
Thus anyone who come forth with such a teaching is just pulling that idea out of thin air, and its also likely they get to be one of the 12 ...LOL

Thats the one tip-off that you are dealing with an invented teaching.
That when we find any religion that claims that you have to have a living "apostles" for your church to be true, that they just also happen to also claim to have living apostles...LOL

It's sorta like Smith's claim that husbands can sleep around with other women, even married ones..Smith did not just "happen" to come out with that teaching.
He came out with it because he was thinking that this "husband' was himself.....

In other words, he had a dog in the fight....

dberrie2000

05-27-2017, 04:51 AM

The Text clearly tells of how the 12 tried to get this other guy to stop doing works in the lord's name only because he was not following the 12 and was off all on his own.
The way Jesus tells the 12 to not do that in the future teaches us that there really is no need to be under the authority of the 12 at all...regardless of how badly the 12 wanted to be important.

Acts 16:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.
5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.

Ephesians 2:20---King James Version (KJV)
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

A foundation seems important to me.

alanmolstad

05-27-2017, 04:55 AM

Again. ...
Notice when the 12 tried to stop a ministry not in any way connected to them....

That ends the issue.

dberrie2000

05-27-2017, 04:57 AM

Again. ...Notice when the 12 tried to stop a ministry not in any way connected to them....That ends the issue.

And again--why would the Biblical text testify of something which is not true?

Acts 16:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.
5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.

Ephesians 2:20---King James Version (KJV)
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

alanmolstad

05-27-2017, 05:07 AM

The hand sometimes thinks it's more important than the feet..
Yet even on the hand no two fingers are alike.

It's the same in the body of Christ.

alanmolstad

05-27-2017, 06:25 AM

dberrie2000

05-30-2017, 05:03 AM

The hand sometimes thinks it's more important than the feet..Yet even on the hand no two fingers are alike.

It's the same in the body of Christ.

How does that preclude the foundation of the church was composed of the apostles and prophets--Jesus Christ being the Chief Corner stone?

Acts 16:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.
5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.

Ephesians 2:20---King James Version (KJV)
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

alanmolstad

05-30-2017, 05:16 AM

My point is that there is no such thing taught in the Bible that the church was ever united fully under an org that was controlled by the 12.....

never...

Not then, not now.

But on the other hand what is very clear in the scriptures is that right from the start Jesus actually encouraged people to start up a ministry that were totally unconnected to the 12 and not under any org authority at all!

This is the way Jesus wanted.

In today's world we have tons and tons of totally unconnected denominations and there is freedom and Christians can visit different denomination of Christian church and pick what one most closely fits their own style of worship.

In other words, the hands of the body can gather , all united under the core teachings that make us all Christian, yet the hand is not forcing the feet to be like them, nor are the feet asked to be like the hands.

This is the way Jesus designed us to be like.

Phoenix

06-01-2017, 12:07 PM

so there was this guy out there, doing works in the name of Christ and getting results.
Then along come the 12 and they see this going on, and how this guy was unknown to them, and how he was not under their authority.
So the 12 decide that they did not want people doing works that were not part of their own org, so they tried to stop him.
Later, they talk about what they had seen going on and what they did to stop it with the Lord.
The idea they must have had is that they were going to get a "Good ***" from Christ.
i think your summary of this p***age is very good, up to this point. the good works the man was doing was casting out devils in Jesus' name.

The 12 were looking to hear that they and only they were to be spreading the word of the Lord to people, and that all others would be under their authority.
not sure it says they were thinking about spreading the word, but at least they didn't think non-apostles should be exorcising demons.

They wanted to hear from Christ that all future teachings would be coming to the people though them.
i didn't see that in the p***age, it seemed to be all about who should and shouldn't be casting out demons

This would have been the correct moment for Jesus to make it clear that all future members of his church should be united under the control and oversight of the 12 hand-picked men .
unless the issue was just "it is okay for non-apostles to cast out demons?"

This would have been the moment to make it clear for all history that there is but one official church org, and that you had to join and be under the guidance of the Lord though his 12.
But that did not happen.
maybe the apostles already knew that it was THEIR responsibility and authority to RUN the church. maybe what they misunderstood was just whether it was okay for church members who were non-apostles to be exorcising demons.

plus, paul made it clear in his letter (4th chapter) to the ephesians that the apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists etc. were there to lead and guide the members so that someday they would reach a unified state of perfect faith and edification.

dberrie2000

06-02-2017, 04:51 AM

My point is that there is no such thing taught in the Bible that the church was ever united fully under an org that was controlled by the 12.....

never...Not then, not now.

But on the other hand what is very clear in the scriptures is that right from the start Jesus actually encouraged people to start up a ministry that were totally unconnected to the 12 and not under any org authority at all!

Again--

Acts 16:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.
5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.

Christian

06-15-2017, 12:42 PM

Again--

Acts 16:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.
5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.

And Kept them we have. ALL 66 BOOKS OF THEM.

Of course THEY didn't have them all as BOOKS.

MANY of them they had IN PERSON.

Yep, the Apostles and elders DID make decisions while they were alive.

They died and went to heaven.

Unlike joey smith and those who follow him.

THEY go somewhere else (hint: it is hot there and their 'holy underwear' won't insulate them from its flames. . .)

And NEVER (NOT EVEN ONCE) did Jesus EVER say that 'live mortal 'apostles' must be present in HIS CHURCH in every generation.

The Apostle John (on the Isle of Patmos) had MANY YEARS to ordain new apostles, but GOD NEVER ORDAINED ANY SUCH THING.

Joey smith lied to you.
He invented a NEW RELIGION and YOU GOT SUCKERED INTO IT.

THEN JOEY SMITH'S NEW RELIGION broke into 150+ little pieces, one of which is in utah. Would you like me to repost the LIST OF THEM?