Why should we pick YOURS?

[Erundur]

Protestants, this thread is for you to tell us why we should choose <insert favorite Protestant sect/movement here> over the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Objective reasons preferred, as opposed to subjective opinions and personal beliefs.

[Phoenix]

Protestants, this thread is for you to tell us why we should choose <insert favorite Protestant sect/movement here> over the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Objective reasons preferred, as opposed to subjective opinions and personal beliefs.

I am not a protestant, but while you are waiting for one to respond, i want to elaborate on your logic.

logically, most people belong to the church they belong to, because they believe its teachings are superior to any other church's teachings. For Christians, they believe their denomination is closer to the teachings of Jesus' original church than the teachings of any other denomination.

this is logical because if a person believed that some other denomination had teachings that were closer to the original's than the one the person is currently in, the person would leave it and join the one he believed was closer to the original. after all, why would someone stay in a church he believed has less-correct teachings than some other church? that wouldn't be logical.

so your thread is really asking posters who belong to a protestant denomination (or a non-denominational church) this question:

"why do you think your sect has the most correct teachings of all the churches and sects currently on the earth?"

[alanmolstad]

Protestants, this thread is for you to tell us why we should choose <insert favorite Protestant sect/movement here> over the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
.
Joe Smith lied about all the things he came out with...all the stuff about seeing angels...all the stuff about digging up things...all that stuff was a lie that he wanted to use to get the two things he was always after....

#1 - money
#2- sex with other women besides his wife.

So trusting in any of the claims by Smith leads you down a dark path....to ****ation---





But on the other hand....
If you want to spend the rest of eternity cooking in the Lake of Fire?...then dont pay any attention to what Im saying...
(my warnings are aimed at people who have doubts about Smith's claims.)

[Christian]

Protestants, this thread is for you to tell us why we should choose <insert favorite Protestant sect/movement here> over the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Objective reasons preferred, as opposed to subjective opinions and personal beliefs.

You should choose ANY CHRISTIAN CHURCH over the mormon non-Christian cult. It would be INFINITELY BETTER for any mormon to change from cultism to CHRISTIANITY, of course.

[Erundur]

so your thread is really asking posters who belong to a protestant denomination (or a non-denominational church) this question:

"why do you think your sect has the most correct teachings of all the churches and sects currently on the earth?"
Yes, exactly. It will be interesting to see what they come up with.

[Erundur]

Joe Smith lied about all the things he came out with...all the stuff about seeing angels...all the stuff about digging up things...all that stuff was a lie that he wanted to use to get the two things he was always after....

#1 - money
#2- sex with other women besides his wife.

So trusting in any of the claims by Smith leads you down a dark path....to ****ation---
But how does this favor Protestantism? Do you believe that if Mormonism is false, then Protestantism must be true by default?

[Phoenix]

But how does this favor Protestantism? Do you believe that if Mormonism is false, then Protestantism must be true by default?

maybe they don't understand what a logical answer should look like.

[Christian]

maybe they don't understand what a logical answer should look like.

What praytell, do YOU know about logic?

We CHRISTIANS live by the Word of God (the BIBLE). We do NOT follow false prophets, charlitans, fairytale spinners such as joseph smith, david koresh, jim jones or the like. INSTEAD, we serve the LORD as the BIBLE has revealed HIM.

You mormons may follow joey smith if you wish.

But ANY CHRISTIAN church beats following the fraud and false prophet joey smith.

Perhas YOU don't understand what the TRUTH looks like. . .:p

[alanmolstad]

Do you believe that if Mormonism is false, then Protestantism must be true by default?

I believe that Mormonism is false based only on the fact that Joe Smith lied and made up the whole wild story about angels and finding stuff.

This means that I believe that all Mormons worship a false god....and have a false Christ.

This means that they are unforgiven, and are still in their sins when they die...and therefore doomed.
Joe Smith lied...He made up the whole stinking pile of ideas that he convinced others to believe in...


Joe did this for mostly 2 main reasons...
He wanted to turn the story into a way to earn easy money.
and,he wanted to cheat on his wife with other women.

Joe was a con man.

[Erundur]

I believe that Mormonism is false based only on the fact that Joe Smith lied and made up the whole wild story about angels and finding stuff.

This means that I believe that all Mormons worship a false god....and have a false Christ.

This means that they are unforgiven, and are still in their sins when they die...and therefore doomed.
Joe Smith lied...He made up the whole stinking pile of ideas that he convinced others to believe in...


Joe did this for mostly 2 main reasons...
He wanted to turn the story into a way to earn easy money.
and,he wanted to cheat on his wife with other women.

Joe was a con man.
Again, how does any of this argue in favor of Protestantism?

[alanmolstad]

Again, how does any of this argue in favor of Protestantism?

So what we want to search for is a Christian church that takes a STRONG stand against the type of hanky-panky that The Mormon Joe Smith was into and pushing...
We want to make sure that the Christian church we join takes a strong stand against the lies told by Smith...
We want to find a Christian church that has a strong outreach to the CULTS like the Mormons, so that we can get the research we need when we come into contact with the different non-Christian CULTS....

We want a church that holds that cheating on your wife with a little 14 year old girl is simply wrong.....

[alanmolstad]

So everyone in the Bible who had encounters with angels were con men then because they claimed to see angels like Mary did before the birth of Jesus? So you don't believe angels will be shown to anyone anymore? I guess Mary lied when she said an angel visited her.

The Clinton defense....LOL


cl***ic.....

[alanmolstad]

As Mormons, we are Christians. Biblical Christians..
No the Mormons are all LOST!
They are still lost in their sins...
The have "Dead Faith" because their faith is alone and without works, for the only work required is to believe in the true Jesus of the Bible...and as the Mormons reject the true Jesus of the Bible they have "Dead Faith"

People that have "Dead Faith" like the Mormons do, die without hope and burn for eternity in Hell's fire.

[Erundur]

So what we want to search for is a Christian church that takes a STRONG stand against the type of hanky-panky that The Mormon Joe Smith was into and pushing...
We want to make sure that the Christian church we join takes a strong stand against the lies told by Smith...
We want to find a Christian church that has a strong outreach to the CULTS like the Mormons, so that we can get the research we need when we come into contact with the different non-Christian CULTS....

We want a church that holds that cheating on your wife with a little 14 year old girl is simply wrong.....
Okay, all I'm getting out of this is that you can't come up with a single reason why we should choose your church over ours.

[alanmolstad]

Okay, all I'm getting out of this is that you can't come up with a single reason why we should choose your church over ours.
well.....the stand the church takes against a pedophile like Joe Smith is about the first thing a person should check on to make sure of when you are looking at different religions.

Does the church totally reject people that think like Joe Smith who cheated on their wives?...or do they make excuses?....like Clinton?....

On the other hand....If you are turned on by little 14 year old girls?..if you want to cheat on your wife and get away with it?...if you want to raise the reputation of Satan to the level of actually beiing a brother of Jesus?.....Then the Mormons are the correct church for you!!!!!!

Enjoy the ride while you can,
Because you are going to be burning in hell for a long-long time

[alanmolstad]

The Clinton defense....LOL


cl***ic.....

Its like the other day when I pointed out to Mormon that Joe Smith is a Pedophile* and cheated on his wife with other women.
The defense the Mormon's came up with was to try to find other people in history that did the same thing as what they therefore have to admit Joe Smith was guilty of.

Notice the Mormons don't try to say "It never happened!"

Rather what they say is, "But other guys did the same thing!"

This is the same defense that President Clinton tried when he got caught with a young girl.

This type of defense is all a guy has left to try when they are caught red-handed...

Its an old defense....goes all the way back to the garden of Eden,and was first used when Adam pointed to his wife rather than admitting his sin and being prepared to face the fact that he was guilty and God knew it.

Mormons are the same way...
* http://crime.about.com/od/sex/p/pedophile.htm

[alanmolstad]

We believe in ....l.
Mormons believe in a lie.
Mormons believe in a false Jesus that has nothing to do with the Jesus of the Bible.
Mormons believe in following the teachings of a known pedophile.

[alanmolstad]

Mormons believe in a lie.
Mormons believe in a false Jesus that has nothing to do with the Jesus of the Bible.
Mormons believe in following the teachings of a known pedophile.


Mormons believe this Smith guy....its hard for me to understand how Mormons cant see what he was....but they believe his lies.

joe Smith came up with the idea that he would claim to find something like the Bible....and its not that hard to see how he came up with that idea after all, he was known at the time as a "money digger"

Money diggers are a hype...a film-flam man who would get people to give him money on the chance he would be able to find hidden money of their lands.
It easy to see how a guy who was in the business of fooling people and telling them a lie that he can find buried money would have the idea that a dream scam would be to claim to find something important like the Bible.

Thats how the idea started...

But claiming to find a lost bible is a lot more easy to do that proving you have that bible.
thats why we dont have that "found" bible today....LOL

Smith knew he could not let just anyone see his "found bible" because then people would not be as impressed with the story anymore once they learned that the "found Bible" was nothing more that a Sears catalog...LOL

But....Smith was a good story teller, and as any con-man knows the best lie is the one told to people that want to believe it.

Mormons want to believe the lie.
That is why the Lies of Smith go on and on ....

Tell a lie to someone who wants only the truth and the lie falls.
Tell a lie to someone who wants the lie to be true and you have a religion....

[alanmolstad]

Because we don't believe in what you believe in, you think we believe in a lie..
Mormons trust a lie, because they believe without question the lies told by a film-flam man , who dreamed up the whole "Oh hey I found a new Bible" story as a means to earn some free cash, and also a way to convince younger girls into his bed too....

Thus Mormons have no works to go along with their faith.
Faith without works is a dead.

This is why Mormons have a "dead faith" for they lack the only work that Jesus said must be, and that is to believe in the true Son.

Lacking this work, the Mormons and their "Dead faith" are unforgiven and thus when they die are condemned to the fire of Hell...

[Christian]

As Mormons, we are Christians. Biblical Christians. I would never want to become a Protestant. Their teachings are heretical and do not come from the scriptures. The Holy Ghost does not testify to doctrines such as the Trinity because the Holy Ghost never testifies of that which is from the devil. I love being a true, New Testament Christian.

Not true at all. As mormons you are dead, lost heathens. You would not want to become a 'protestant,' a category invented by the roman catholics WHICH MORMONS ARE CONSIDERED TO BE PART OF BY MOST OF THEM. That category was made-up by the catholics to include ALL NON-CATHOLIC RELIGIONS that claim to be Christian. Mormons are just sloppy with their word-choices much of the time.

Because the Holy Spirit never testifies of that which is from the devil, I LOVE being a TRUE NEW TESTAMENT CHRISTIAN.

Sorry about what that UNholy spirit told you. . .

[Christian]

child posted:
We believe in the true Jesus of the Bible.

No, the mormon religion believes in a 'jesus' who was supposedly a 'spirit child' of a god who supposedly was once a man, became a god, but was the same (a god) from eternity to eternity, who was supposedly one of many real gods extant.

The Jesus of the BIBLE was NEVER 'a spirit child,' WAS NOT the son of a god who was ever a man, and is one 'person' of THE ONLY REAL GOD EXISTS.

We believe what He said about baptism,

Except that the mormon religion twists what Jesus said and makes it NOT what Jesus said at all. Then mormonism INVENTED its own 'baptism for the dead' that NO FOLLOWER OF THE REAL JESUS ANYWHERE ever practiced in CHRIST'S church.

what he said through Paul about prophets and apostles, etc.

Not quite. The mormon religion CLAIMS that prophets and apostles must be replenished in every generation, which JESUS NEVER ONCE SAID. Then the mormon religions (all 150+ of them) INVENTED THEIR OWN.

JESUS and PAUL NEVER ONCE said that a 'prophet' would ever lead Christ's church here on earth.
JESUS and PAUL NEVER ONCE said that apostles had to continue on beyond the deaths of the originals.

THAT dung was all made up by joey smith and his gang. Sorry, but you don't teach what THE REAL JESUS taught at all.

And sadly, you will only inherit a HOT place. . .:(

[Christian]

Because we don't believe in what you believe in, you think we believe in a lie. We believe in Jesus Christ and follow His gospel. You're a trinitarian which means you don't understand who God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are. Your beliefs break away from scripture.

Let's see now. . .

YOUR RELIGIOUS CULT TEACHES
a god who used to be a man, but has never not been a god
a god who has a physical body

A jesus christ who is supposedly a spirit-brother to satan

and a BUNCH OF OTHER DUNG that 'breaks away from scripture.'

Joe smith invented his imaginary peoples of his fairytale writings, NONE OF WHICH have anything to do with the real world.

And those who believe his fairytales will end up in Hell.

[Erundur]

Well, it's been a week, and no one has offered a single reason to choose any Protestant church. Are there any conclusions we can draw from that fact?

[disciple]

Well, it's been a week, and no one has offered a single reason to choose any Protestant church. Are there any conclusions we can draw from that fact?

"He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Mat 16:15-18

Jesus stated that He would build His church on the truth that He is the Savior and the Son of God. There was and is no need for any other church to be built or restored and any other than His church is false. Christian was correct when he said that the Catholic system labeled the church Christ built as Protestant. The church that belongs to Jesus Christ consists of those who believe the Gospel He proclaimed and that the Apostles preached as recorded in the New Testament. Christians put their faith and trust in the testimony of Jesus Christ and are consequently declared righteous and justified in the sight of God. Mormons from what I can see are putting their faith and trust in what Joseph Smith proclaimed, why should there be a question that more information is needed than what Jesus has already revealed? Who is more trustworthy Jesus Christ or the 14 year old Joseph Smith?

[Phoenix]

... the Catholic system labeled the church Christ built as Protestant. The church that belongs to Jesus Christ consists of those who believe the Gospel He proclaimed and that the Apostles preached as recorded in the New Testament.
But the Catholic Church is built on the truth that Jesus is the Savior and the Son of God---that's part of the church's foundational tenets or core beliefs.


and you said that Jesus stated that He would build His church on the truth that He is the Savior and the Son of God. There was and is no need for any other church to be built or restored

that means that if we believe your logic, there was no need for Protestant churches to be created.

[disciple]

But the Catholic Church is built on the truth that Jesus is the Savior and the Son of God---that's part of the church's foundational tenets or core beliefs.


and you said that Jesus stated that He would build His church on the truth that He is the Savior and the Son of God. There was and is no need for any other church to be built or restored

that means that if we believe your logic, there was no need for Protestant churches to be created.

I'm not asking you to believe my logic, the Catholic church named everyone who didn't fall in line with their teaching as Protestants. Catholics actually put their trust in the "church" and the Pope whom they have been trained to call "Holy Father". They must be members of the catholic organization and perform certain prescribed works to be saved. That is not biblical doctrine but catholic doctrine. The Gospel according to Jesus does not need the pope, veneration of Mary and "saints" (they can't hear anyone's prayers) or any other extra-biblical doctrine.

[Phoenix]

I'm not asking you to believe my logic,
Aren't your conclusions based on your logic? if yes, then aren't you asking us to believe that your logic is valid?


the Catholic church named everyone who didn't fall in line with their teaching as Protestants.
and protestants named everyone who didn't fall in line with their teachings as heretics, etc.


Catholics actually put their trust in the "church" and the Pope whom they have been trained to call "Holy Father". They must be members of the catholic organization and perform certain prescribed works to be saved. That is not biblical doctrine but catholic doctrine. The Gospel according to Jesus does not need the pope, veneration of Mary and "saints" (they can't hear anyone's prayers) or any other extra-biblical doctrine.
I bet that most Catholics would tell you that their faith and their hope for salvation is based on the truth that Jesus is the Savior and the Son of God. They may believe their top human leader is more inspired and infallible than he really is, but that doesn't mean they reject the truth that Jesus is the Savior and the Son of God. And despite a number of incorrect teachings that are taught by the RCC, your logic is that as long as the church is built on the truth that Jesus is the Savior and the Son of God, then there is no reason for any other church existing. Such as Protestant churches.

On the other hand, one Protestant, Pastor Roger Williams, came to believe that no church on earth, including his own Baptist church, had members with the authority to "administer any Church ordinance: nor can there be, until new apostles are sent by the great Head of the Church, for whose coming I am seeking....the apostasy ... hath so far corrupted all, that there can be no recovery out of that apostasy until Christ shall send forth new apostles to plant churches anew."

[Christian]

Well, it's been a week, and no one has offered a single reason to choose any Protestant church. Are there any conclusions we can draw from that fact?

Let's see now. . .Jesus didn't START a 'religious organization,' He started a CHURCH, an ***embly of folks called together for a purpose.

We CHRISTIANS can worship IN SPIRIT AND IN IN TRUTH in any Bible church, Baptist church, Evangelical Free church, ***emblies of God church, calvary chapel church, BUT NOT in your mormon places OR in the branch davidian places, OR in the white supremecist places.

In other words, we can worship with CHRISTIAN churches, but we have no interest in worshiping with the cultists in THEIR places.

I notice too, that when I started a thread asking WHY SHOULD ANYONE PICK YOUR SPLINTER of joseph smith's church, YOU CANNOT GIVE US A COHERENT REASON WHY.

Are there any conclusions we can draw from THAT fact?

EACH MORMON GROUP EXCLUDES THE OTHERS AS 'FALSE." SO WHY IS YOURS NOT FALSE, BUT THE OTHERS ARE? Hmmmmmmmmm????

[Erundur]

Let's see now. . .Jesus didn't START a 'religious organization,' He started a CHURCH, an ***embly of folks called together for a purpose.
Silly word games.


church noun \ˈchərch\
1 : a building for public and especially Christian worship
2 : the clergy or officialdom of a religious body
3 often capitalized : a body or organization of religious believers: as
a : the whole body of Christians
b : denomination <the Presbyterian church>
c : congregation
4 : a public divine worship <goes to church every Sunday>
5 : the clerical profession <considered the church as a possible career>

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/church


It's been 16 days, and you are still unable to offer a single reason to choose any Protestant church.

[alanmolstad]

[COLOR=#0000FF]Let's see now. . .Jesus didn't START a 'religious organization,' He started a CHURCH, ]

Good post!

[Christian]

the kid posted:

God told me this is His church. That's reason enough. If God says something is true, that thing is true. You can't disprove God because you'll be wrong every time.

EXCEPT that THE REAL GOD told me (AND MANY OTHERS) that YOUR god LIED. He showed me MANY places where joey smith contradicted himself, contradicted what THE REAL GOD had said in the Bible, etc.

I'll believe the REAL God of the Bible.

Did you just say we can't worship? Pretty sure the Cons***ution disagrees. Anyone can worship anything anywhere. We worship God the Father.

Yet you SAY you 'have to do with' only Him. THEN you try to tell us Jesus is ANOTHER GOD and the Holy Spirit is a THIRD GOD

THEN your cult tells you that there are MANY true gods on MANY PLANETS and THAT YOU CAN BECOME A GOD YOURSELF.

The GOD OF THE BIBLE says:

Isa 43:10-11
10 "You are My witnesses," says the Lord,
"And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.
11 I, even I, am the Lord,
And besides Me there is no savior.
NKJV

Isa 44:6
6 "Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
'I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.
NKJV



Isa 44:8
8 Do not fear, nor be afraid;
Have I not told you from that time, and declared it?
You are My witnesses.
Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one.'"
NKJV



You worship a gigantic Godlike monster called the trinity. You say you don't worship the Holy Ghost but God only and then turn around and say they're all supposedly one God of one substance.

The Father is God
Jesus is God
The Holy Spirit is God
THEY ARE ONE GOD (see the p***ages above. . .ONLY ONE GOD EXISTS ANYWHERE)

We label that 'Trinity.'

Not godlike moster. Not 'saying we don't worship' God. NONE of the trash-talk you like to make about God. SIMPLY THE TRUTH

Each of us members of Jesus Christ's church have given reasons to join His church.

Each of us CHRISTIANS have been given reasons BY GOD NOT TO join joey smith's religion.

We've given evidence that the teachings are true; however, truth is ultimately found through the Holy Ghost answering our prayers to the Father.

You were given a 'tummy twitch' by some demon, NOT BY THE GOD OF THE BIBLE, since your false gods, false prophets (who can't prophesy), and false christ are all creations of joey smith, not from the BIBLICAL GOD AT ALL.

If not from THE GOD OF THE BIBLE, then most likely from a DEMON.

Try asking God if the Book of Mormon is true with an OPEN MIND and open heart instead of saying "OK God, I already believe that book is false. Don't tell me it's true because if it is, that means I'm wrong and that just can't happen." Try asking "Is the Book of Mormon from you?" A simple yes or no question. Its very specific. Until then, you've not really asked God

I DID THAT, about 43 years ago, with nothing in my desire other than to serve and love God IN ANY PLACE HE WANTED ME TO BE. I would have become a muslim if the BIBLICAL GOD had wanted me to.

GOD TOLD ME (just as He has told countless others who have done the same thing) "NO" the book of mormon is NOT from God.

YOU CANNOT DEAL WITH THAT, CAN YOU?

[Christian]

Nobody seems to be able to tell us why anyone should pick the utah mormon splinter group or believe it is the same church joseph smith built. . .Geeee, I WONDER WHY :p

[Christian]

kid posted
Originally Posted by ChristianWhat praytell, do YOU know about logic?

We CHRISTIANS live by the Word of God (the BIBLE). We do NOT follow false prophets, charlitans, fairytale spinners such as joseph smith, david koresh, jim jones or the like. INSTEAD, we serve the LORD as the BIBLE has revealed HIM.

You mormons may follow joey smith if you wish.

But ANY CHRISTIAN church beats following the fraud and false prophet joey smith.

Perhaps YOU don't understand what the TRUTH looks like. . .:p


Yeah because we Mormons never know anything about logic (please tell me you know what sarcasm is).

It's a cheap form of humor YOU are trying to learn to use, apparently. . .

You have never lived by what the scriptures teach, just what you've been taught through tradition.

PLEASE TELL US WHO TAUGHT ME through 'tradition?' I have lived by what the SCRIPTURES (THE BIBLE) teach for about 43 years now. . .I have studied the Bible for over a half-century.

How much STUDY OF THE BIBLE ALONE DO YOU DO? A couple minutes a day, with your mormon junk telling you 'what it must mean?'

I'll never follow those who are Protestants.

I've never met a member of the protestant religion. Where are their headquarters? Where are their leaders.

THE TRUTH IS that the roman catholic religion INVENTED the 'protestant religion,' an imaginary group in which they "lump" ALL non-CATHOLICS including mormons, branch davidians, jonestown temple folks, etc.

I don't follow any members of any 'protestant religion' either. I follow the Jesus Christ of the BIBLE, the GOD OF THE BIBLE, and none other.

They do not believe in prophets, except dead ones.

So you don't believe the prophets of the BIBLE are alive and well in heaven? They are just 'DEAD?'

I pity you.

The 'prophets' of your cult haven't been able to PROPHESY in over 75 years that I am aware of. NO NEW REVELATION FROM THEM! Just the same old dung.

They do not believe in revelation, except those which already came.

YOUR CULT doesn't believe in 'continuing revelation,' though they claim to. THE TRUTH IS that your 'prophets' for many generations have been COMPLETELY UNABLE TO PROPHESY or to reveal ANYTHING NEW FROM GOD AT ALL.

They do not believe in the priesthood, something that was an essential teaching in the New Testament church.

Yet you cannot find ONE SINGLE AARONIC PRIEST in the New Testament church, NOR ONE SINGLE MELCHIZEDEK PRIEST other than Jesus Christ and Melchizedek himself ANYWHERE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT CHURCH.

SHOW US YOUR "MORMON PRIESTHOODS" IN THE NEW TESTAMENT IF YOU THINK YOU CAN FIND THEM!
They don't seem to BE there. . .ANYWHERE

They do not believe we lived with God even though the Bible says we did.

WHEN AND WHERE does the BIBLE say you ever lived with God. CHAPTER AND VERSE PLEASE!

More fantasyland from the kid.

There is no protestant church that can come close to the church of Jesus Christ. Protestants don't understand truth because they reject the Holy Ghost.

Please SHOW US EVEN ONE CHRISTIAN church that rejects the Holy Ghost. We REJECT YOUR DEMONS. The Holy Ghost lives WITHIN EVERY CHRISTIAN EVERYWHERE (Romans 8:1-11)

Rev 21:8
8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
NKJV

I will continue to pray for your lost soul.

[Erundur]

Nobody seems to be able to tell us why anyone should pick the utah mormon splinter group or believe it is the same church joseph smith built. . .Geeee, I WONDER WHY :p
That's okay; nobody has been able to tell us why anyone should pick any Protestant sect. Perhaps you should start wondering why that is.

[Phoenix]

That's okay; nobody has been able to tell us why anyone should pick any Protestant sect. Perhaps you should start wondering why that is.

i have a theory, it could be wrong but...

those sects, after being at each others' throats through much of their history, have, in the last 100 years or so, reached a sort of uneasy truce where they agree not to claim their own sect is more correct than the others, or that another sect is less correct than others. they realize they will never be united, and they still compete for members, but they don't overtly tell people "our church is closer to jesus' original church than the one down the street" etc. the most they might do in salesmanship is to mention that they have a full-time youth pastor or a full-service daycare, or, like calvary chapels, a full-service coffee/cappuccino bar on the premises, as "little" incentives to join them instead of the one down the street that doesn't have such amenities.

[alanmolstad]

i have a theory, it could be wrong but...

those sects, after being at each others' throats through much of their history, have, in the last 100 years or so, reached a sort of uneasy truce where they agree not to claim their own sect is more correct than the others, or that another sect is less correct than others. they realize they will never be united, and they still compete for members, but they don't overtly tell people "our church is closer to jesus' original church than the one down the street" etc. the most they might do in salesmanship is to mention that they have a full-time youth pastor or a full-service daycare, or, like calvary chapels, a full-service coffee/cappuccino bar on the premises, as "little" incentives to join them instead of the one down the street that doesn't have such amenities.


thats odd a Mormon would even.......but never mind.




I think its a bit more to the core of what mormonism was and and has always been based on that drives the people to split off and start their own Mormon church.
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/680-polygamy-sects



in other words....."sex"

[Phoenix]

thats odd a Mormon would even.......but never mind.

it's odd that a mormon would even include the idea of a coffee bar as a possible inducement to come to calv. chapel instead of to baptist church in the neighborhood? why is that odd? as i said, churches need SOMETHING to get people to join with them in worship instead of with a competing protestant church. they are limited in what they can offer, though, because of the unwritten truce that forbids one from bad-mouthing another. the protestant and nondemoms in my city advertise on their signs things like "This Sunday: Special Guest Pastor __ ______" to get people to want to attend. i don't really see anything wrong with such things. every church wants to stand out, probably. it's a weekly struggle to keep the church viable, keep a critical m*** of members so the church doesn't have to shut down.

recently in the news: a Tennessee Baptist church's membership had dwindled so low that it was facing shutting down because it couldn't pay the bills to keep the church open. the pastor reluctantly put the church up for sale, but by a small miracle, an Arabic Baptist congregation needed a place to worship, so they bought it and allowed the SBC to continue to meet there.

[Christian]

phoenix posted:

it's odd that a mormon would even include the idea of a coffee bar as a possible inducement to come to calv. chapel instead of to baptist church in the neighborhood? why is that odd? as i said, churches need SOMETHING to get people to join with them in worship instead of with a competing protestant church.

Doesn't your mormo-specific supposedly 'holy book' of the pgp tell you NOT TO DRINK COFFEE? I thought it did.

they are limited in what they can offer, though, because of the unwritten truce that forbids one from bad-mouthing another. the protestant and nondemoms in my city advertise on their signs things like "This Sunday: Special Guest Pastor __ ______" to get people to want to attend.

Please show us PROOF of any "unwritten truce that forbids one from bad-mouthing another." YOU CANNOT BECAUSE NO SUCH "TRUCE" EXISTS EXCEPT IN YOUR MIND. And how stupid is that, as Jay Leno would say?

i don't really see anything wrong with such things. every church wants to stand out, probably. it's a weekly struggle to keep the church viable, keep a critical m*** of members so the church doesn't have to shut down.

Let's see now. . .at Pentecost they had loud wind noise, tongues as of fire landing on people, and people speaking in languages they had never learned.

recently in the news: a Tennessee Baptist church's membership had dwindled so low that it was facing shutting down because it couldn't pay the bills to keep the church open. the pastor reluctantly put the church up for sale, but by a small miracle, an Arabic Baptist congregation needed a place to worship, so they bought it and allowed the SBC to continue to meet there.

Do you think buildings are of major importance to God? We have a Bible church locally that meets in a 7th day Adventist building on Sundays, has for years. Usually a couple of hundred and fifty or so adults each week. . .BOTH congregations, Bible church and 7th Day Adventist CHRISTIAN congregations meet there.

I know. . .mormons are trapped into sitting there to listen to their boring leaders because they have to attend their LOCAL ward. . .They cannot go to a different building under different leaders if their local leader goes off on a twit.

I AM correct in that matter, aren't I?

[Christian]

That's okay; nobody has been able to tell us why anyone should pick any Protestant sect. Perhaps you should start wondering why that is.

If you READ my posts I showed you why being Baptist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, ***embly of God, Bible church etc makes no difference. We are CHRISTIAN congregations of CHRIST'S CHURCH, unlike the mormons, white supremecists, branch davidians, etc which are cults and not of Jesus Christ at all.

You STILL cannot justify your membership in the utah mormons instead of the flds, rlds, or temple lot lds. ALL of your mormo splinter-groups hate each other; NONE have fellowship with any of the others.

[Phoenix]

Doesn't your mormo-specific supposedly 'holy book' of the pgp tell you NOT TO DRINK COFFEE? I thought it did.
your thought is incorrect. There is nothing in the Pearl of Great Price that warns against drinking coffee.


Please show us PROOF of any "unwritten truce that forbids one from bad-mouthing another."
The history of Protestantism is part of the proof. In the early centuries of Protestantism, the splintered sects bad-mouthed each other a lot, and even escalated things to violence against each other. But more recently, you won't see them doing it even 1% as much as back then. What happened, that caused this remarkable change in how they treated each other? Did they suddenly all wake up one morning and stop believing that the others were teaching false doctrines? why aren't you screaming at, criticizing, denouncing as non-Christian, and killing each other anymore?

Another part of the proof was just provided by you, when you said
" being Baptist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, ***embly of God, Bible church etc makes no difference. We are CHRISTIAN congregations of CHRIST'S CHURCH..."

THAT is the basic substance of the truce. you decided which of you were going to be in the "club of churches that will no longer bad-mouth each other" and the justification was that you're all appendages of Christ's church, and that's what really matters.



And how stupid is that, as Jay Leno would say?
you think it's stupid for a bunch of churches that used to bad-mouth each other, to agree to stop, for the mutual benefit of all of them? I don't think it's that stupid. it may be disingenuous, but it seems pretty pragmatic to me.


Do you think buildings are of major importance to God?
how did you infer THAT from the story? the point was that some churches aren't retaining enough members to keep paying for a place to meet. even in Jesus' day, the members thought it was important to meet in a building of some sort.


I AM correct in that matter, aren't I?
No. You are pretty incorrect, IMO.

[Christian]

phoenix posted:


Please show us PROOF of any "unwritten truce that forbids one from bad-mouthing another."

The history of Protestantism is part of the proof. In the early centuries of Protestantism, the splintered sects bad-mouthed each other a lot, and even escalated things to violence against each other. But more recently, you won't see them doing it even 1% as much as back then. What happened, that caused this remarkable change in how they treated each other? Did they suddenly all wake up one morning and stop believing that the others were teaching false doctrines? why aren't you screaming at, criticizing, denouncing as non-Christian, and killing each other anymore?

In other words, YOU CANNOT PRODUCE ANY EVIDENCE at all. ALL you have is "your opinion" which of course is worth exactly nothing.

Another part of the proof was just provided by you, when you said
" being Baptist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, ***embly of God, Bible church etc makes no difference. We are CHRISTIAN congregations of CHRIST'S CHURCH..."

THAT is the basic substance of the truce.

No 'truce' necessary. No 'war' except in the minds of a few cultists. We CHRISTIANS have ALWAYS BEEN ONE BODY, the BODY OF CHRIST. Jesus built one church, one body. NOT a social/financial/religious/political oligarchy.

you decided which of you were going to be in the "club of churches that will no longer bad-mouth each other" and the justification was that you're all appendages of Christ's church, and that's what really matters.

IF you HONESTLY think such a 'club' exists, then you should be able to POINT US TO THE CLUBHOUSE LOCATION, NAME AT LEAST ONE OF ITS OFFICERS, AND SHOW US SOME KIND OF 'ARTICLES OF FAITH.'

Of course you cannot because it does not exist.

you think it's stupid for a bunch of churches that used to bad-mouth each other, to agree to stop, for the mutual benefit of all of them?

No, I think it is stupid for your cult to teach you such a lie and I think it is stupid that you fell for it.

I don't think it's that stupid. it may be disingenuous, but it seems pretty pragmatic to me.

ONLY IF such a 'war' existed, but Christ's body is not divided against itself; never has been.

Your cult has lied to you.


Do you think buildings are of major importance to God?

how did you infer THAT from the story? the point was that some churches aren't retaining enough members to keep paying for a place to meet. even in Jesus' day, the members thought it was important to meet in a building of some sort.

Let's see now. . .they met in homes, fields, at the local Jewish temple courtyards. No CHRISTIAN temples anywhere. But SEVERAL different names such as 'The church of the Laodiceans,' 'The church of God in Christ Jesus,' 'The church of the Thessalonians, etc etc etc.

Just like the Presbyterians, Methodists, ***emblies of God, Baptists. . .like that.

But of course the church of joey smith didn't exist until the 1800's, almost 2,000 years LATER, and it was NEVER PART OF CHRIST'S BODY AT ALL.

[Phoenix]

In other words, YOU CANNOT PRODUCE ANY EVIDENCE at all
so you call the history of reformationism "no evidence at all" ? why do you think so little of your history?

maybe you are in denial that your history really occurred. are you like the holocaust deniers, who claim that the nazi regime didn't really kill millions of jews in some evil extermination attempt? they say that the holocaust was just made up by some evil jews with a persecution complex.


ALL you have is "your opinion" which of course is worth exactly nothing.
so then your opinion of my comments is....worth exactly nothing, since it's just your opinion.


No 'truce' necessary.
if the splintered pieces of the reformation didn't need a truce, they would still be killing each other like sunni muslims are still killing shiite muslims. but thankfully for reformationists, they DID stop killing each other. there must have been something that caused the killing to stop.

1--maybe one side killed the other side completely off, that's one way to stop further killing.
2--or maybe both sides got together and said "look, this is nuts, we should stop the fighting and start acting like christians."

your opinion regarding which of those scenarios happened, is, of course, worth exactly nothing, but maybe the readers can benefit from the exercise in logical thinking.


No 'war' except in the minds of a few cultists.
are you saying that only a few cultists believe that severe fighting occurred between factions of protestantism in the 16th-18th centuries?

if so, then to you, virtually all historians and history books that cover the history of protestantism are "a few cultists."
which seems like pretty strange thinking.


We CHRISTIANS have ALWAYS BEEN ONE BODY, the BODY OF CHRIST.
only the christians who demonstrate it in their behavior.

here's part of a song for you:

"If we are the body
Why aren't His arms reaching?
Why aren't His hands healing?
Why aren't His words teaching?
And if we are the body
Why aren't His feet going?
Why is His love not showing them there is a way?"


IF you HONESTLY think such a 'club' exists, then you should be able to POINT US TO THE CLUBHOUSE LOCATION
you think that if there isn't a physical structure to meet in, there can't be a club? really?


NAME AT LEAST ONE OF ITS OFFICERS
the pastor of every church that is part of the "agreement."


AND SHOW US SOME KIND OF 'ARTICLES OF FAITH.'
already did. the unwritten rule is "those of us in the churches that we have agreed are 'real' christian churches, must not accuse each other of being heretical or less christian than any of the other churches in the club."


Of course you cannot because it does not exist.
your denial of the reality that there is a group of protestant churches that won't badmouth each other, doesn't make the reality any less real. go ask a missouri synod lutheran pastor to tell you why his church is better than the sbc baptist church. ask him to list the false, unbiblical doctrines that the other church teaches. i bet he won't do it.

or, go ask an elca lutheran pastor why his/her church is better than the methodist or presbyterian church. ask him/her to list the false, unbiblical doctrines that the other churches teach. i bet he/she won't do it.

"we are all part of the body, no piece of it is more right, or more wrong, than any other piece of it."

then get a history book and learn why calvin had servetus murdered. then tell me it wasn't because they disagreed over whose doctrines were more biblical.


I think it is stupid for your cult to teach you such a lie and I think it is stupid that you fell for it.
in your opinion, the following statement is a lie?

"a bunch of churches that used to bad-mouth each other, agreed to stop, for the mutual benefit of all of them"

gee, it's a good thing that your opinion is worth exactly nothing.

[Grandma]

Protestants, this thread is for you to tell us why we should choose <insert favorite Protestant sect/movement here> over the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Objective reasons preferred, as opposed to subjective opinions and personal beliefs.

God's choices are ALWAYS superior to our own.

[Erundur]

God's choices are ALWAYS superior to our own.
That's great. So can you tell us why we should choose any Protestant sect over the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? No one else has been able to so far.

[Grandma]

That's great. So can you tell us why we should choose any Protestant sect over the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? No one else has been able to so far.

My Bible says to beware of false prophets and teachers. The only way ro identify false teachers is to know the word of God.

Psalm 119:11
Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

God adds people to His church --- we don't. He never says, "Come unto my church." Instead He brings the sheep to the Shepherd --- it is the Shepherd Who saves us.

John 8:12
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.


Verses that are sometimes overlooked:
John 3
25 Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying. 26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him. 27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. 28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him. 29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. 30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

I urge you to carefully read the New Testament. It contains so much truth and instruction.

In Christian love,

Grandma

[Phoenix]

My Bible says to beware of false prophets and teachers. The only way ro identify false teachers is to know the word of God.

so that answers Erundur's question?

(can you tell us why we should choose any Protestant sect over the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?)

what if a person believes that the word of God is telling him to beware of the false prophets and teachers of protestantism?

[Grandma]

so that answers Erundur's question?

(can you tell us why we should choose any Protestant sect over the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?)

what if a person believes that the word of God is telling him to beware of the false prophets and teachers of protestantism?

What if a person hasn't been born again? How can he find salvation?

[Erundur]

My Bible says to beware of false prophets and teachers. The only way ro identify false teachers is to know the word of God.

Psalm 119:11
Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

God adds people to His church --- we don't. He never says, "Come unto my church." Instead He brings the sheep to the Shepherd --- it is the Shepherd Who saves us.

John 8:12
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.


Verses that are sometimes overlooked:
John 3
25 Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying. 26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him. 27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. 28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him. 29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. 30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

I urge you to carefully read the New Testament. It contains so much truth and instruction.

In Christian love,

Grandma
So you can't come with a reason either. This is very interesting.

[chuckt]

so that answers Erundur's question?

(can you tell us why we should choose any Protestant sect over the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?)

what if a person believes that the word of God is telling him to beware of the false prophets and teachers of protestantism?

If you didn't know what Christianity was, how would you know that you were in it? It is a rhetorical question and something that you have to think hard about.

Jesus did say not to let anyone deceive you:

And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Jesus also said His sheep know His voice and that they won't follow another.

http://biblehub.com/matthew/24-4.htm

I think I've already built a life of checking and rechecking what people say so much that I have become a watcher and need to spend more time studying and telling others about Jesus.

1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. 4And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. 6This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

http://biblehub.com/kjv/john/10.htm

The third thing is that we're not to believe every spirit:

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

http://biblehub.com/1_john/4-1.htm

So I often tell people, "Is it okay for me to tell you that I don't believe you?"

[chuckt]

So you can't come with a reason either. This is very interesting.

Because I'll find more light and because God started to have fellowship or koinonia with me and God will not have that kind of relationship with me in the Mormon church. Fallen spirits will only take you so far.

[Grandma]

So you can't come with a reason either. This is very interesting.

I never told anyone to choose a Protestant church. Salvation is found in Christ and the Bible explains everything one needs to know about Christ and salvation.


In Christian love,

Grandma

[Erundur]

Because I'll find more light and because God started to have fellowship or koinonia with me and God will not have that kind of relationship with me in the Mormon church.
It's hard for me to evaluate your claim since I don't know what a koinonia is.

[Erundur]

I never told anyone to choose a Protestant church.
But that's what this thread is about.

[Grandma]

But that's what this thread is about.

Yes, but it's so EASY to talk about churches. Churches can't save. Jesus can!

Acts 10:36
"You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all."

[Grandma]

It's hard for me to evaluate your claim since I don't know what a koinonia is.

Use the internet.

[Grandma]

It's hard for me to evaluate your claim since I don't know what a koinonia is.

Use the internet at your fingertips.

[Phoenix]

Yes, but it's so EASY to talk about churches. Churches can't save. Jesus can!

jesus can't save you if you refuse to join his church once you know about it. he wants you to join his church. by telling him "no" you are disobeying him. he can't save you as long as you are determined to disobey him.

[Grandma]

Accidental duplicate

[Grandma]

jesus can't save you if you refuse to join his church once you know about it. he wants you to join his church. by telling him "no" you are disobeying him. he can't save you as long as you are determined to disobey him.


Jesus came to save sinners and He's fully capable of doing that. God adds to the Church such as should be saved; we don't do that.

2 Chronicles 20:6
And said, O LORD God of our fathers, art not thou God in heaven? and rulest not thou over all the kingdoms of the heathen? and in thine hand is there not power and might, so that none is able to withstand thee?

Proverbs 19:21
There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel* of the LORD, that shall stand.
* purpose

Ezekiel 36
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Why is it that Mormons know so little about the Bible? In the words of the Bible, God is speaking to us!

In Christian love,

Grandma

[alanmolstad]

jesus can't save you if you refuse to join his church once you know about it. .a very silly view of the Lord...
and I totally reject that concept,
and I totally reject that type of god...


and I totally reject anything even slightly connected to whatever else that type of view might come up with later...

[chuckt]

It's hard for me to evaluate your claim since I don't know what a koinonia is.

I gave you the definition in the sentence. Koinonia is the fellowship with the Lord. If I can't give an answer, God gives me the answer or an answer when I wait on Him. Is your God real? Does he train you every day? Does he answer you every day?

[Grandma]

Are Mormon missionaries helping people to "Come unto Christ."

“Invite others to come unto Christ by helping them receive the restored gospel through faith in Jesus Christ and His Atonement, repentance, baptism, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and enduring to the end.”
mormonmissionprep.com

Are you Mormons claiming that no one can "Come unto Christ" except through the Mormon church? Do you know how much sense that doesn't make? You are limiting God. You're saying that He can only save Mormons. That's not how God works.

Proverbs 3
5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

Jesus is better than any church! Following Jesus is a joyful, rewarding experience. And He's with you in every trial. He won't leave us comfortless.

[Phoenix]

a very silly view of the Lord...
you think it's silly to believe that the Lord commands people to belong to His church?


and I totally reject that concept,
you totally reject the concept the Lord commands people to belong to His church?


and I totally reject that type of god...
you totally reject a god who would command people to belong to His church?


and I totally reject anything even slightly connected to whatever else that type of view might come up with later...
wow, no bigotry or closed-mindedness there. did you also reject the concept of a spherical Earth because you are afraid to think about ideas you may not like--even before you know what they are?

[Grandma]

you think it's silly to believe that the Lord commands people to belong to His church?


you totally reject the concept the Lord commands people to belong to His church?


you totally reject a god who would command people to belong to His church?


wow, no bigotry or closed-mindedness there. did you also reject the concept of a spherical Earth because you are afraid to think about ideas you may not like--even before you know what they are?

The commandment you believe comes from God isn't in my Bible, is it?

God adds to the Church daily such as should be saved.

Acts, Chapter 2
"And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved."

In Christian Kove,

Grandma

[Phoenix]

The commandment you believe comes from God isn't in my Bible, is it?

"The writer of Hebrews clearly says that we are not to forsake the ***embling of ourselves as is the manner of some in Hebrews10:25: “…not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.” In the previous verse (v 24) the writer says, “And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds.” Now it would be hard to “spur one another on toward love and good deeds” if we are sitting at home and watching a TV or Internet evangelist. Hebrews 13:7 is an impossible command for the Christian not ***embling with the saints to follow since it says to “Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.” You can not imitate what you do not see and you can not remember church leaders if you never attend.

Paul’s Teaching on the Body of Christ (Church)

Paul writes in Ephesians 4:11-12, “So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up.” Again, it is hard to build up the body of Christ if we are alone at home. If you read the entire New Testament, there is not one single lone-ranger Christian. You will always see the apostles mentioning the church in general. The epistles never, ever address single, solitary Christians about their walk in faith.

Read more: http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/what-does-the-bible-say-about-church-membership-and-attendance/#ixzz3kBQxrNj8

[DrDavidT]

Protestants, this thread is for you to tell us why we should choose <insert favorite Protestant sect/movement here> over the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Objective reasons preferred, as opposed to subjective opinions and personal beliefs.

I have not read the answers given by others so I may duplicate what they have said.

you are not choosing a protestant sect/movement over Mormonism. What you are doing is choosing to be redeemed by Jesus then follow his ways as found in the Bible over the lies of the mormon sect. if you actually asked Jesus to help you read the Bible and compare it with the the religious writings of your organization you will see how far off the mark your religious beliefs are.

One simple comparison to help you see the error in mormonism. Joseph Smith said that he alone was allowed to see the golden plates and then they were removed from him after translation and returned to heaven.

well that tells everyone is that no one can check Smith's work and see if he got the translation correct or if he lied; , no one can learn the original language the mormon scriptures are taken from so they can see for themselves what their 'god' wants or says and on it goes. the contents of the golden tablets are a huge secret.

In contrast, everyone, both believer and unbeliever, can read the original languages, read the m****cripts we have and they can see that God has preserved his word as he promised. The Dead Sea Scrolls are a prime example of this as we see that for 2000 years God's word has remained the same. So if God is keeping his promise about his word, we can have confidence that the rest of the Bible is accurate and true.

there is no secret about the Bible. people have free access to it in many languages and have the ability to study historical records to see the Bible is true and that God does reign as he said. This means we can have confidence in John 3:16 and know that we are saved and will go to heaven when we die.

it is all about Jesus not protestant sects. if you want the truth you begin there.

[Phoenix]

i am pretty sure erundur will have his own response to this, but i had some comments.


you are not choosing a protestant sect/movement over Mormonism.
you are, if you show up at a lutheran church instead of a catholic one, and tell them you want to join.


What you are doing is choosing to be redeemed by Jesus then follow his ways as found in the Bible
but many christians--the ones who are calvinist protestants--would disagree with you about that, because they believe that you don't choose jesus--he chooses you. (the whole "no free will to make any good choices until AFTER jesus chooses, regenerates, and saves you" doctrine).


over the lies of the mormon sect.
what if a person wanted to choose the truths of an arminian sect over the lies of the calvinist sects? is that an okay thing to do?


if you actually asked Jesus to help you read the Bible and compare it with the the religious writings of your organization you will see how far off the mark your religious beliefs are.
is it possible for people who you believe to be unregenerated/unsaved, to ask jesus for help? other anti-mormons who are calvinists have told me "no." should i believe them, or you?


One simple comparison to help you see the error in mormonism. Joseph Smith said that he alone was allowed to see the golden plates
really? when i do that 'one quick comparison,' what i see is the error on your anti-mormonism, because joseph smith said, and other witnesses said, that a few other witnesses were allowed to see the plates.


and then they were removed from him after translation and returned to heaven.
well that tells everyone is that no one can check Smith's work and see if he got the translation correct or if he lied;
where are the original m****cripts (some call them autographs) from which the bible was transcribed? if having the originals, in the handwriting of the original authors, is really as important to GOD as it is to unbelievers who are looking for reasons not to believe, then God would have made sure those originals are still around and available for people to "check Moses' work" or to "check Ezekiel's or Isaiah's work"....but apparently, God doesn't feel it's as important as you feel it is.

maybe you should actually ask Jesus to help you read the bible, and compare what the bible teaches to the stuff you are trying to get others to believe.


and now i will let erundur reply to you.

[alanmolstad]

That's great. So can you tell us why we should choose any Protestant sect over the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? No one else has been able to so far.
Mormonism is based on the invented ideas of a pedophile/con-man, who was after people's money and women....(younger and younger girls)

The teachings of Mormonism themselves lead people to believe in a false Christ and a false salvation that if not repented of will lead the Mormon believer to eternal ****ation in the fire of hell.

The concept of Christ in the teachings of Mormonism are completely in error so much that they should not be considered "Christian" at all.

Whereas the concept of Christ within any Christian church is, as it should be, able to bring the person to a true faith in the true Jesus of the bible.
Lutherans teach a correct version of Christ...Baptists teach a correct version of Christ, Catholics teach a correct version of Christ.
Salvation can be found in such concepts...etc,etc,etc.


What you want to look out for is any type of set of teachings that stem from guys like Joe Smith who were simply in it for the money,power, and women.


....So to sum up...

the teachings about Christ in the normal Christian denominations are going to bring a Bible student to the correct Jesus of the Bible, and therefore you are going to be looking in the right place to find salvation is such churches.

On the other hand, the version of Christ you find in the world of the CULTS, such as the Christ taught in Mormonism , will lead you off the narrow path, and place your soul in danger should you die trusting in such errors and face eternal Hell.

Thus for the sake of people's souls, the souls of their friends and family, I do offer answers to people that are seeking to find the true Jesus as to what to look for and what to look out for when seeking a place to worship and find salvation.
i dont really deal much with the Mormons on this forum as I find the whole topic way too filled with personal attacks for my blood....and I have a more clear connection to witnessing to other CULTs such as the JWs ....

But I have noticed that over the years, God does send into the game a few people now and then that do bring with them the knowledge needed in dealing with Mormons...and they do carry the water for me on that issue that tends to dominate this forum over the years....

[DrDavidT]

you are, if you show up at a lutheran church instead of a catholic one, and tell them you want to join.

my point went right over your head.


but many christians--the ones who are calvinist protestants--would disagree with you about that, because they believe that you don't choose jesus--he chooses you. (the whole "no free will to make any good choices until AFTER jesus chooses, regenerates, and saves you" doctrine).


way to derail what was being said.


what if a person wanted to choose the truths of an arminian sect over the lies of the calvinist sects? is that an okay thing to do?

so you decide to be **** instead of listening to what was said.


is it possible for people who you believe to be unregenerated/unsaved, to ask jesus for help? other anti-mormons who are calvinists have told me "no." should i believe them, or you?

why not? asking for help is not a crime nor is it forbidden. Nicky Cruz did when he was a gang leader and the answer led him to be saved. how else are you going ot come to the truth?


really? when i do that 'one quick comparison,' what i see is the error on your anti-mormonism, because joseph smith said, and other witnesses said, that a few other witnesses were allowed to see the plates.


i knew that but left it out as there is no way to verify that claim. and don't link up to their statements as people lie.


where are the original m****cripts (some call them autographs) from which the bible was transcribed?

we do not need them as God has preserved his word so we have the originals today. if we didn't then God failed to keep his promise.


if having the originals, in the handwriting of the original authors, is really as important to GOD as it is to unbelievers who are looking for reasons not to believe, then God would have made sure those originals are still around and available for people to "check Moses' work" or to "check Ezekiel's or Isaiah's work"....but apparently, God doesn't feel it's as important as you feel it is.

you really do not know what you are talking about. people will choose to disbelieve even if we discover the original ark. God didn't need the original handwritten copies because the transcriber is not as important as the message, commands, revelations, and so on found in the Bible.


maybe you should actually ask Jesus to help you read the bible, and compare what the bible teaches to the stuff you are trying to get others to believe.

people like you are a dime a dozen . you think too highly of yourself and think you can stand in judgment of what others do or do not know when in reality you know nothing. insulting someone after they have posted good responses to the original questions only shows your lack of character. you are not an expert on anything and I would advise you to stop acting like one.


and now i will let erundur reply to you.

who died and made you God?

[Erundur]

you are not choosing a protestant sect/movement over Mormonism.
Actually that's what most Protestants want me to do, but if you disagree that's okay.


What you are doing is choosing to be redeemed by Jesus then follow his ways
But I'm choosing to be redeemed by Jesus and follow his ways in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I don't need Protestantism to do that.


One simple comparison to help you see the error in mormonism. Joseph Smith said that he alone was allowed to see the golden plates and then they were removed from him after translation and returned to heaven.
So you've never heard of the three and eight witnesses?


In contrast, everyone, both believer and unbeliever, can read the original languages, read the m****cripts we have and they can see that God has preserved his word as he promised. The Dead Sea Scrolls are a prime example of this as we see that for 2000 years God's word has remained the same. So if God is keeping his promise about his word, we can have confidence that the rest of the Bible is accurate and true.
Actually, I've heard that there are hundreds of thousands of variants among the m****cripts, including some significant variations in the DSS. However, I already believe the Bible while a member of the Church of Jesus Christ, so that's still not a reason to choose Protestantism instead.

[Erundur]

Mormonism is based on the invented ideas of a pedophile/con-man, who was after people's money and women....(younger and younger girls)
False.


The teachings of Mormonism themselves lead people to believe in a false Christ and a false salvation that if not repented of will lead the Mormon believer to eternal ****ation in the fire of hell.
You're going to have to show us why Jesus Christ is false.


The concept of Christ in the teachings of Mormonism are completely in error so much that they should not be considered "Christian" at all.
That's pretty subjective. One could just as easily say "the concept of Christ in the teachings of Protestantism is completely in error so much that they should not be considered 'Christian' at all."


the teachings about Christ in the normal Christian denominations are going to bring a Bible student to the correct Jesus of the Bible, and therefore you are going to be looking in the right place to find salvation is such churches.
Great, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does that.


On the other hand, the version of Christ you find in the world of the CULTS, such as the Christ taught in Mormonism , will lead you off the narrow path, and place your soul in danger should you die trusting in such errors and face eternal Hell.
Sounds pretty subjective. One could just as easily claim that the version of Christ you find in the world of the CULTS, such as the Christ taught in Protestantism, will lead you off the narrow path, etc.

[alanmolstad]

You're going to have to show us why Jesus Christ is false.


oh?

there is something I have to do now eh?......

[alanmolstad]

False.


.
What i wrote about in this post is my answer to the question about why pick a Christian denomination over joining the Mormon church?...

My point is this:

My point is that all of the Mormon teachings stem only from a guy who was out to talk people into opening their checkbooks and getting his zipper worked.

Thats it...

Thats all that Mormonism means to me....

[Erundur]

oh?

there is something I have to do now eh?......
If you want us to accept your claim, you do. If you don't care either way, then you don't need to bother.

[Erundur]

My point is this:

My point is that all of the Mormon teachings stem only from a guy who was out to talk people into opening their checkbooks and getting his zipper worked.
Your point is false.

[alanmolstad]

If you want us to accept your claim, you do. If you don't care either way, then you don't need to bother.

I think you misunderstand something ...

Im not here because I "want" you to believe things that I say.

Rather all I truly "want" is to continue to write on topics that interest me and to be able to write in a style and with a look that allows my posts and the ideas contained in them to be easy to read.

I only "want" to post my views on topics that are of interest to me.

I only "want" to write in a manner that is easy to read.






But I don't stay up late at night worried, "Oh gosh will Erundur accept my claims today?"

I actually don't suggest anyone to go looking for their personal, life-changing, answer to all of life's questions on the internet message forums because they tend to be populated by way, way too many anonymous people who display mostly bad manners and few social skills.


Im my own life, I deal with all such serious questions in solitude ...

Here is just a place where I get a chance to flesh-out my views.
I like the chance I have been given here to really dig deeper into what is my understanding of God, the Bible, Religions, and the Universe.

[alanmolstad]

Now in the case of "why your church and not another?" my thoughts are as follows.


I have attended and worshiped at most of the many common Christian denominations you can find listed in the phone book....

I don't really have any problems with any of them.
Each has slight differences, but for the vast majority of the things you run into you find things are about the same one church to another.

This means that in the real world the biggest difference between different Christian denominations is found in the people that you meet at each.


So I have no problem suggesting any of the many churches I have attended in the past to be considered by a new believer.
If I saw that this or that church had a program that was more in-tune with the person I was talking to, that would be a good reason to suggest that church to them....

But in the end, it does not matter to me much what denomination a Christian attends as I have no problem also worshiping God there if I were to visit too.


But then we should address now the Question of the non-Christian CULTS.

The CULT issue is a matter that needs to be confronted!
The CULTS are not a type of thing I suggest any person get mixed up in.

There are many reasons why I think this is so, but the biggest reason is that if you die you go to Hell.

Hell is a very good reason to stay out of a CULT, regardless of how long your mom and dad were members.




Now with the Mormons in particular I find their whole religion to be founded and centered around the ideas that Mormon men want to have lots of sex with other women.

That is the corner stone of the Mormon faith, it was why Joe Smith invented his teachings to allow him to do.
and, Its why they finally had to shoot the skunk....(some people just need shooting I guess)

The whole Utah branch of the Mormon church is founded and driven by this quest to have sex with other women other than your wife, and this even is at the heart of their understanding of who and "what" God is.....and their own dreams of the after life.


Im many ways, the Mormon teachings and statements over the years about 'spirit wives, spirit babies' reminds me of the "70 Virgins" that Islam promises to guys that strap bombs on their bodies and **** up markets or crash planes.


Sex with many different Mormon women now is currently taught by many branches of Mormonism, and if its not possable where you are?....... you still have that as a goal in the afterlife.

[Erundur]

It appears that "christian" STILL CANNOT GIVE ONE REASON for ANYONE to believe any protestant cult is the right cult. They all must 'simply believe' it, just as the Muslims believe THEIR religion is from God. Not a very good excuse imho.

[Christian]

It appears that "christian" STILL CANNOT GIVE ONE REASON for ANYONE to believe any protestant cult is the right cult. They all must 'simply believe' it, just as the Muslims believe THEIR religion is from God. Not a very good excuse imho.

In your ignorance you don't understand that CHRIST'S church is not a social/religious/financial/political oligarchy such as the mormon religion is. CHRIST's church is made up of MANY SMALLER GROUPS called 'congregations' or 'churches,' just as it was in the Bible.

The 'church' at ephesis
The 'church' at laodecia
etc
etc
etc

Unlike the arrogant mormons we don't claim to be 'the' church, but we are PARTS OF the church.

Your ignorance is showing.

[Erundur]

CHRIST's church is made up of MANY SMALLER GROUPS called 'congregations' or 'churches,' just as it was in the Bible.
But in you ignorance you don't understand that they were all part of the same church, not a bunch of random independent churches all doing their own thing, as the arrogant protestants claim. Your ignorance is showing.

And you still haven't provided a single reason to choose any protestant cult over the Church of Jesus Christ.

[DrDavidT]

But in you ignorance you don't understand that they were all part of the same church, not a bunch of random independent churches all doing their own thing, as the arrogant protestants claim. Your ignorance is showing.

And you still haven't provided a single reason to choose any protestant cult over the Church of Jesus Christ.

Because nothing verifies one word any leader of the Mormon church from Smith on down to the present. Then with the doctrine of newer prophecies trump older ones, you cannot have any peace of mind for what you believed may change with the next prophet or the next year or the next month. The LDS cannot bring the peace that p***es understanding that comes with knowing God.

Then no one is asking you to change to any sect/church/denomination/et al you are being asked to repent of your sins, give up mormonism and be freed from deception and embrace Christ as your savior.You are being called to Jesus and the truth not another church

[Erundur]

Because nothing verifies one word any leader of the Mormon church from Smith on down to the present.
That's a pretty sweeping ***ertion, and if it somehow argued for protestantism over the Church of Jesus Christ, I'd ask you to back up your claim.


Then no one is asking you to change to any sect/church/denomination/et al
That's not true. You may not be, but many others have.

[Christian]

But in you ignorance you don't understand that they were all part of the same church, not a bunch of random independent churches all doing their own thing, as the arrogant protestants claim. Your ignorance is showing.

And you still haven't provided a single reason to choose any protestant cult over the Church of Jesus Christ.

It appears that YOU do not understand that we CHRISTIAN churches are all part of the same church, or of course that the CHRISTIAN church has never failed to have full Authority from God for about 2,000 years now. The church JESUS BUILT has never ceased to exist on the earth, never been shaken, and never completely apostacized such as joe smith's religion did.

YOU haven't provided a single reason to choose YOUR religious cult over CHRIST'S REAL church. YOU pretend we should join your mormon cult instead.

[Christian]

That's a pretty sweeping ***ertion, and if it somehow argued for protestantism over the Church of Jesus Christ, I'd ask you to back up your claim.


BEFORE you can claim that mormonism is NOT 'protestant' you should try to demonstrate that the Jesus Christ of CHRISTIANITY (the one the BIBLE is about) 'is' the mormon 'spirit-brother-of-satan' jesus that the mormon religion teaches. . .

UNTIL you can do that, AND demonstrate that 'mainline Christianity' IS 'protestant, you have nothing but whines to offer us.

mormonism (including ALL of its 150+ variants) is included in the 'protestant' as just another cult. Nobody but those duped mormons believe it.

[Erundur]

YOU haven't provided a single reason to choose YOUR religious cult over CHRIST'S REAL church. YOU pretend we should join your mormon cult instead.
That's okay; YOU haven't provided a single reason to choose YOUR religious cult over CHRIST'S REAL church either. YOU pretend we should join your protestant cult instead.

[Erundur]

BEFORE you can claim that mormonism is NOT 'protestant' you should try to demonstrate that the Jesus Christ of CHRISTIANITY (the one the BIBLE is about) 'is' the mormon 'spirit-brother-of-satan' jesus that the mormon religion teaches. . .

UNTIL you can do that, AND demonstrate that 'mainline Christianity' IS 'protestant, you have nothing but whines to offer us.

mormonism (including ALL of its 150+ variants) is included in the 'protestant' as just another cult. Nobody but those duped mormons believe it.
That makes no sense at all. No, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not a protestant cult.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by Christian View Post
BEFORE you can claim that mormonism is NOT 'protestant' you should try to demonstrate that the Jesus Christ of CHRISTIANITY (the one the BIBLE is about) 'is' the mormon 'spirit-brother-of-satan' jesus that the mormon religion teaches. . .

UNTIL you can do that, AND demonstrate that 'mainline Christianity' IS 'protestant, you have nothing but whines to offer us.

mormonism (including ALL of its 150+ variants) is included in the 'protestant' as just another cult. Nobody but those duped mormons believe it.

That makes no sense at all. No, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not a protestant cult.

Let's see now. . .your religion does not agree with the catholic religion and thus IS protestant.

AND

Of course you ARE considered to be a cult by ALL OF HISTORICAL CHRISTIANITY.

SO

OF COURSE YOU ARE a protestant cult!

And the TRUTH REMAINS that nobody but mormons believe otherwise!

AND

the TRUTH REMAINS that even the 150+ mormon cults can't agree about WHICH ONE IS REALLY 'the' church.

[Christian]

That's okay; YOU haven't provided a single reason to choose YOUR religious cult over CHRIST'S REAL church either. YOU pretend we should join your protestant cult instead.

STUPIDLY FALSE, of course. YOUR 'modern-day-invented-religion' is NO MORE CHRIST'S REAL CHURCH THAN THE CHURCH OF SATAN IS.

YOU have not proven otherwise.

I have never asked you to join ANYTHING.

I am not a member of any 'protestant cult.' I am a member of Christ's REAL church, the one that is about 2,000 years old, not YOUR CULT which is less than 200 years old.

Your founder invents a new religion and PRETENDS it is not new.

HOW STUPID IS THAT?

[alanmolstad]

Now in the case of "why your church and not another?" my thoughts are as follows.


I have attended and worshiped at most of the many common Christian denominations you can find listed in the phone book....

I don't really have any problems with any of them.
Each has slight differences, but for the vast majority of the things you run into you find things are about the same one church to another.

This means that in the real world the biggest difference between different Christian denominations is found in the people that you meet at each.


So I have no problem suggesting any of the many churches I have attended in the past to be considered by a new believer.
If I saw that this or that church had a program that was more in-tune with the person I was talking to, that would be a good reason to suggest that church to them....

But in the end, it does not matter to me much what denomination a Christian attends as I have no problem also worshiping God there if I were to visit too.


But then we should address now the Question of the non-Christian CULTS.

The CULT issue is a matter that needs to be confronted!
The CULTS are not a type of thing I suggest any person get mixed up in.

There are many reasons why I think this is so, but the biggest reason is that if you die you go to Hell.

Hell is a very good reason to stay out of a CULT, regardless of how long your mom and dad were members.




Now with the Mormons in particular I find their whole religion to be founded and centered around the ideas that Mormon men want to have lots of sex with other women.

That is the corner stone of the Mormon faith, it was why Joe Smith invented his teachings to allow him to do.
and, Its why they finally had to shoot the skunk....(some people just need shooting I guess)

The whole Utah branch of the Mormon church is founded and driven by this quest to have sex with other women other than your wife, and this even is at the heart of their understanding of who and "what" God is.....and their own dreams of the after life.


Im many ways, the Mormon teachings and statements over the years about 'spirit wives, spirit babies' reminds me of the "70 Virgins" that Islam promises to guys that strap bombs on their bodies and **** up markets or crash planes.


Sex with many different Mormon women now is currently taught by many branches of Mormonism, and if its not possable where you are?....... you still have that as a goal in the afterlife.

still one of my best posts on this message forum! :)

[Christian]

erunder posted:


Originally posted by alanmolstad
The teachings of Mormonism themselves lead people to believe in a false Christ and a false salvation that if not repented of will lead the Mormon believer to eternal ****ation in the fire of hell.
You'regoing to have to show us why Jesus Christ is false.

The mormon 'jesus christ' is NOT the BIBLICAL Jesus Christ because
a. the mormon jc is supposedly a 'spirit-brother-of-satan' jesus christ

BUT

The BIBLICAL Jesus Christ instead, CREATED the angels, even the fallen satan, which makes satan and his minions CREATED BEINGS BY JESUS CHRIST, NOT 'spirit-brothers' AT ALL.

John 1:2-4
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
NKJV

God is the father of spirits just as my son is father of his adopted children. It is not a PHYSICAL relationship, but is instead a FAMILIAL relationship.

I guess you don't know the difference

[DrDavidT]

That's a pretty sweeping ***ertion, and if it somehow argued for protestantism over the Church of Jesus Christ, I'd ask you to back up your claim.


That's not true. You may not be, but many others have.

Having studied archaeology and history it is not an ***ertion. Why are the mormons refusing to dig up Mt. C if there is actual evidence for a battle that took place which would support their claims? The mormon archaeologists themselves have not found anything to support one claim Smith and other leaders made about the mormon beliefs and history. I could go on but you should know that mormon leaders tell you and other mormons just use faith not evidence so how would you know if my statement is not true?

Read a non-mormon translated NASB Bible and see the difference and ask God to open your eyes to the truth. it is that simple and you get to study and see with your own eyes the truth of scripture and the falseness of mormon religious works.

[dberrie2000]

Read a non-mormon translated NASB Bible and see the difference and ask God to open your eyes to the truth. it is that simple and you get to study and see with your own eyes the truth of scripture and the falseness of mormon religious works.

Such as this truth?

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[Erundur]

Having studied archaeology and history it is not an ***ertion.
Perhaps you should spend some time studying English, because it most certainly is an ***ertion.


Why are the mormons refusing to dig up Mt. C if there is actual evidence for a battle that took place which would support their claims?
Mt. C?


Read a non-mormon translated NASB Bible and see the difference and ask God to open your eyes to the truth. it is that simple and you get to study and see with your own eyes the truth of scripture and the falseness of mormon religious works.
Why, what's so magical about a non-Mormon-translated NASB Bible?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT View Post Why are the mormons refusing to dig up Mt. C if there is actual evidence for a battle that took place which would support their claims?


Mt. C?

I thought that was rather humorous. The doctor might believe the Hill Cumorah is a mountain.

[DrDavidT]

Perhaps you should spend some time studying English, because it most certainly is an ***ertion.


Mt. C?


Why, what's so magical about a non-Mormon-translated NASB Bible?

Perhaps you should stop insulting people and learn to accept the fact that there are people who know far more than you. Nothing is magical it just contains the truth where as any mormon translated bible does not.

[Erundur]

Perhaps you should stop insulting people and learn to accept the fact that there are people who know far more than you. Nothing is magical it just contains the truth where as any mormon translated bible does not.
Which are the Mormon-translated Bibles, and by what magical process does truth disappear from the Bible when a Mormon translates it?

[Christian]

Which are the Mormon-translated Bibles, and by what magical process does truth disappear from the Bible when a Mormon translates it?

joe smith's 'inspired version' in which joe smith changes the text of his 'translation' at random to fit his own imaginations. He PRETENDED that God 'inspired' him, just as he PRETENDED to see some angels in a grove of trees. . .in his FIRST 'first vision' account.

[dberrie2000]

joe smith's 'inspired version' in which joe smith changes the text of his 'translation' at random to fit his own imaginations. He PRETENDED that God 'inspired' him, just as he PRETENDED to see some angels in a grove of trees. . .in his FIRST 'first vision' account.

And just as he pretended to have some golden plates?

Testimony of Three Witnesses
Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris


Testimony of Eight Witnesses
Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

[Christian]

berry posted:



Originally Posted by Christian View Post
joe smith's 'inspired version' in which joe smith changes the text of his 'translation' at random to fit his own imaginations. He PRETENDED that God 'inspired' him, just as he PRETENDED to see some angels in a grove of trees. . .in his FIRST 'first vision' account.

Testimony of Three Witnesses

I <SNIPPED> the 'witnesses' (about all of whom have been adequately debunked in posts by others, with evidence to support their claims)

Joe smith came to the bad ending he deserved. He died trying to shoot his way out of jail. He was a conman, liar, thief, pedophile, and heretic. Yep. He PRETENDED to "RESTORE" junk that never existed or was believed by the REAL Jesus Christ, OR the church about 2,000 years ago.

THEY NEVER BELIEVED
god was just an 'exalted man'
or
in smith's 'jesus' who is supposedly a 'spirit-brother' of satan
or
temples
or
'melchizedek' priests running the church
or
many gods existing in many places
or
baptism for the dead
or
or
or

Smith just made all that garbage up.

[dberrie2000]

Joe smith came to the bad ending he deserved. He died trying to shoot his way out of jail. He was a conman, liar, thief, pedophile, and heretic. Yep. He PRETENDED to "RESTORE" junk that never existed or was believed by the REAL Jesus Christ, OR the church about 2,000 years ago.

THEY NEVER BELIEVED

god was just an 'exalted man'

God the Son is an exalted man:

Acts 5:30-31---King James Version (KJV)
30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Revelation 3:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

[alanmolstad]

yes...Jesus is both man.....and eternal God almighty

Jesus is man, and so I can call him my "brother'

Jesus is my Lord, and so I can call him my "God"


two natures within the one person.

[DrDavidT]

Which are the Mormon-translated Bibles, and by what magical process does truth disappear from the Bible when a Mormon translates it?

Mormons, especially Smith, do not have the spirit of truth. It is impossible for them to get the Bible right until they repent of their sins and cme to the truth of Jesus and his redemptive work. There is nothing magical just the power of Christ who opens the blind eyes to see.

[Erundur]

Mormons, especially Smith, do not have the spirit of truth. It is impossible for them to get the Bible right until they repent of their sins and cme to the truth of Jesus and his redemptive work.
Unless you can prove this objectively, this is just worthless anti-Mormon bigotry that doesn't answer the question.

[DrDavidT]

Unless you can prove this objectively, this is just worthless anti-Mormon bigotry that doesn't answer the question.

There is no such thing as objectivity. Dr. orr and Wm Dever have both said that such a thing is impossible (Did God Have A Wife by Dr. Wm. Dever) This backs up what God said whenhe said you are either for him or against him, there is no middle ground.

It is ironic that you are asking for proof when you cannot prove your own faith true with real evidence.

[DrDavidT]

duplicate post

[dberrie2000]

There is no such thing as objectivity. Dr. orr and Wm Dever have both said that such a thing is impossible (Did God Have A Wife by Dr. Wm. Dever) This backs up what God said whenhe said you are either for him or against him, there is no middle ground.

It is ironic that you are asking for proof when you cannot prove your own faith true with real evidence.

If you consider the Bible as "real evidence"--can you show us what is found in the Biblical text--which is not found in the LDS church--as far as salvational doctrines go?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

[Christian]

If you consider the Bible as "real evidence"--can you show us what is found in the Biblical text--which is not found in the LDS church--as far as salvational doctrines go?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


You mean like THESE?

Isa 43:10-11
0 "You are My witnesses," says the Lord,
"And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.
11 I, even I, am the Lord,
And besides Me there is no savior.
NKJV

Isa 44:6
6 "Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
'I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.
NKJV



Isa 44:8
8 Do not fear, nor be afraid;
Have I not told you from that time, and declared it?
You are My witnesses.
Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one.'"
NKJV


The gods of your false prophet joey smith can't save you from ANYTHING. Not from the penalty for your sins which results in hell. Not by 'exalting' you to your own little make-believe worlds or making YOU into a god. If you are not careful, your false prophet will lead you to where HE is, in hell!

[Erundur]

There is no such thing as objectivity.
Sure there is. It's just often difficult for humans to achieve, especially when they don't even try.


Dr. orr and Wm Dever have both said that such a thing is impossible
Don't know them.


This backs up what God said whenhe said you are either for him or against him, there is no middle ground.
How so?


It is ironic that you are asking for proof when you cannot prove your own faith true with real evidence.
Probably, but not in the way that you think. ;)

[dberrie2000]

You mean like THESE?

Isa 43:10-11
0 "You are My witnesses," says the Lord,
"And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.
11 I, even I, am the Lord,
And besides Me there is no savior.
NKJV

Isa 44:6
6 "Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
'I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.
NKJV



Isa 44:8
8 Do not fear, nor be afraid;
Have I not told you from that time, and declared it?
You are My witnesses.
Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one.'"
NKJV

Interesting you posted that.

Paul identified the "Rock" of the OT as Jesus Christ:

1 Corinthians 10:1-4---King James Version (KJV)
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all p***ed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Which means the God of the OT was Jesus Christ--and the One speaking in Isaiah.

So--how do you collate the OT theology--with the NT theology?

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

IOW--the NT writers separated out God the Son from the "one God" of the Biblical NT text--and testified this "one God" was the God and Father of Jesus Christ.

So--how do you collate the OT witness with the NT witness?

The LDS believe the NT witness.

[alanmolstad]

Jesus is the God of the old test....and the new.(Just as God never starts being God, God never stops being God... :) )


Jesus is also human, as such my brother.

as a brother, Jesus prayed to the father as I do.

This is why Jesus could call the Father his "God"...yet all the while Jesus never stopped being the 2nd person of the trinity, and thus we can call him "my God"

[dberrie2000]

Jesus is the God of the old test....and the new.(Just as God never starts being God, God never stops being God...

Jesus is also human, as such my brother.

as a brother, Jesus prayed to the father as I do.

This is why Jesus could call the Father his "God"...yet all the while Jesus never stopped being the 2nd person of the trinity, and thus we can call him "my God"

Interesting post, Alan, although, it might be considered suspect by most of Christianity.

Most Trinitarinas go back to the OT to substantiate their beliefs of the Trinity. The NT theology is quite different--and flies in the face of the OT witness--as to the Godhead.

I have yet to see a single Trinitarian attempt to engage the NT witness:

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

IOW--the NT writers separated out God the Son from the "one God" of the Biblical NT text--and testified this "one God" was the God and Father of Jesus Christ.

So--how do you collate the OT witness with the NT witness?

The LDS believe the NT witness.

[alanmolstad]

Interesting post, Alan, although, it might be considered suspect by most of Christianity.

Most Trinitarinas...

If there ever was any Christian that might call into question anything I might say -

Then they should just step right up ......(Because I would enjoy that moment)

[alanmolstad]

So--how do you collate the OT witness with the NT witness?

....

Im not really sure what you are asking me to answer?

But I can just go over again who the person of Christ is for you so we get that dealt with.





Within the nature of the One True God, there are 3 persons.
Each person is the One True God.
None of the persons is more "god" that the others.

All 3 persons are equally "God Almighty.

All 3 persons are pure Spirit.


The 3 persons are known to us by the names "Father " and "The Word" (Who becomes the Son named Jesus) and "The Holy Spirit"

In the incarnation, the Word took on human nature. (flesh)

How did the Word do this?....is unknown.

But what we do know is that the Word (now known to the church as the Son of God, Jesus) never stopped being fully God Almighty

So although Jesus is fully Human, and has our human nature, he is also pure spirit and has the divine nature as well...

So Jesus has 2 natures.

Jesus is both God and man.


This is why Jesus could say, "If you have seen me you have seen the father" for Jesus and the father have the very same nature, and this means that all we will ever know of the father is shown us in his son.

For God's nature is spirit, and is therefore always invisible.
But because Jesus has a human nature, we can learn about God though Him, and though him alone..



So as a fully human man, Jesus prayed to the father.
So as a man, Jesus worshiped the father.
So as a man, all the works that Jesus did, all the works were of the father done though Jesus.
So as a man, Jesus has to rely completely on the father for all that he did, for without the father Jesus could not NOTHING!

and that shows us that Jesus is truly 100% human, for this all is true about you and i too!



So, being that Jesus is both God and man, Jesus is also the God of the whole bible, both the Old test and the New test.

And as God is not held by time, this is also why Jesus could say "Before Abraham came to be, I am"...for Jesus is God Almighty, and as such stands unaffected and unbound by time, so Jesus stands with Abraham just as much as he stands with them there when he spoke these words.






Now therefore, once you understand who Jesus is, then all the verses you posted in your comment are held to be very supportive of who Jesus is.

But if you would like me to yet go over each verse one at a time and show you how they support what im saying?...i would be happy to tonight when I get home from work.

But I also do know that if you were to grasp who Jesus is as i have described then this will lead you to deeper understandings to the verses you listed.




so just let me know....

[dberrie2000]

Im not really sure what you are asking me to answer?

But I can just go over again who the person of Christ is for you so we get that dealt with.

Within the nature of the One True God, there are 3 persons.

Each person is the One True God.

If that is a personal belief of yours--then OK.

My point was--the Biblical NT text always separated out God the Son from the "one God" of the Biblical NT, and ***igned the "one God" as God the Son's God and Father, IE--

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

How do you collate that with your above testimony?

Where do we find anything in the Biblical NT which states all three persons cons***ute the "one God" of the Biblical NT?

[Christian]

berry posted:

Interesting you posted that.

Paul identified the "Rock" of the OT as Jesus Christ:

1 Corinthians 10:1-4---King James Version (KJV)
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all p***ed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Which means the God of the OT was Jesus Christ--and the One speaking in Isaiah.

So--how do you collate the OT theology--with the NT theology?

NOT a problem. As he posted to you. . . The Father is the ONE REAL GOD, Jesus is the ONE REAL GOD, and the Holy Spirit is the ONE REAL GOD. They are ONE GOD. You don't understand that because:

1 Cor 2:14-15
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
NKJV

Because you are unsaved (your FRUITS tell us that) you cannot understand spiritual things; they are foolishness to you. That much is OBVIOUS.

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

IOW--the NT writers separated out God the Son from the "one God" of the Biblical NT text--and testified this "one God" was the God and Father of Jesus Christ.

So--how do you collate the OT witness with the NT witness?

Already answered. Yes I know. . .you cannot understand. . .

The Father is God
Jesus is God
the Holy Ghost is God
and together
THEY ARE ONE GOD. The ONLY One God.

Never man-changed-into-godhood
NOT one of MANY gods
NOT the mormon god

Sorry berry, but you just fit the description of
1 Cor 2:14-15
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
NKJV

[alanmolstad]

........


Do you want me to go over the verses one at a time now?....or....would you like to post the same list of verses a few more times first?



I can wait.......

[alanmolstad]

Where do we find anything in the Biblical NT which states all three persons cons***ute the "one God" of the Biblical NT?

The Son is called "God"

The Spirit is called "God"

The father is called "God"




things equal to the same thing, are also equal to each other....

[alanmolstad]

Interesting post, Alan, although, it might be considered suspect by most of Christianity.

.......
"Most of Christianity"???



Can you name me one christian guy?

Can you name me one christian church?....that would look at my words and think they were "suspect"??




I can wait........


Here is what I said>
"

Within the nature of the One True God, there are 3 persons.
Each person is the One True God.
None of the persons is more "god" that the others.

All 3 persons are equally "God Almighty.

All 3 persons are pure Spirit.


The 3 persons are known to us by the names "Father " and "The Word" (Who becomes the Son named Jesus) and "The Holy Spirit"

In the incarnation, the Word took on human nature. (flesh)

How did the Word do this?....is unknown.

But what we do know is that the Word (now known to the church as the Son of God, Jesus) never stopped being fully God Almighty

So although Jesus is fully Human, and has our human nature, he is also pure spirit and has the divine nature as well...

So Jesus has 2 natures.

Jesus is both God and man.


This is why Jesus could say, "If you have seen me you have seen the father" for Jesus and the father have the very same nature, and this means that all we will ever know of the father is shown us in his son.

For God's nature is spirit, and is therefore always invisible.
But because Jesus has a human nature, we can learn about God though Him, and though him alone..



So as a fully human man, Jesus prayed to the father.
So as a man, Jesus worshiped the father.
So as a man, all the works that Jesus did, all the works were of the father done though Jesus.
So as a man, Jesus has to rely completely on the father for all that he did, for without the father Jesus could not NOTHING!

and that shows us that Jesus is truly 100% human, for this all is true about you and i too!



So, being that Jesus is both God and man, Jesus is also the God of the whole bible, both the Old test and the New test.

And as God is not held by time, this is also why Jesus could say "Before Abraham came to be, I am"...for Jesus is God Almighty, and as such stands unaffected and unbound by time, so Jesus stands with Abraham just as much as he stands with them there when he spoke these words.

"








Now if you think you know a guy who is a Christian, and they hold what Im saying "suspect"?....then just tell them to drop by.


If you know of a Christian church that holds my view of God as "suspect"?....then what church are you thinking of?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

IInteresting post, Alan, although, it might be considered suspect by most of Christianity.

Most Trinitarinas go back to the OT to substantiate their beliefs of the Trinity. The NT theology is quite different--and flies in the face of the OT witness--as to the Godhead.

I have yet to see a single Trinitarian attempt to engage the NT witness:

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

IOW--the NT writers separated out God the Son from the "one God" of the Biblical NT text--and testified this "one God" was the God and Father of Jesus Christ.

So--how do you collate the OT witness with the NT witness?

The LDS believe the NT witness.



The Father is God
Jesus is God
the Holy Ghost is God
and together
THEY ARE ONE GOD. The ONLY One God.

No one is arguing the Father is God the Father, the Son is God the Son, or the Holy Ghost is God the Holy Ghost.

But nowhere in the Biblical NT does it join all three as the "one God".

As the NT witness above shows, quite to the contrary--they always separate out God the Son from the "one God" of the Biblical NT. Always. Never does any Biblical NT writer join all three persons as the "one God" of the NT.

As I have stated--I have not know any Trinitarian to ever engage that point--they scoff at it--then return to their traditional standard pat answers.

Care to engage the scriptures above? Anyone?

[alanmolstad]

i still want to know what Christian might find my words about the trinity as "suspect"?????


I will wait......take your time....

[Christian]

No one is arguing the Father is God the Father, the Son is God the Son, or the Holy Ghost is God the Holy Ghost.

But nowhere in the Biblical NT does it join all three as the "one God".

As the NT witness above shows, quite to the contrary--they always separate out God the Son from the "one God" of the Biblical NT. Always. Never does any Biblical NT writer join all three persons as the "one God" of the NT.

As I have stated--I have not know any Trinitarian to ever engage that point--they scoff at it--then return to their traditional standard pat answers.

Care to engage the scriptures above? Anyone?

They have been 'engaged' several times. NONE of them (despite your rednecking of words to try to overemphasize them) change the facts

The FACT is that
The Father is God
Jesus is God
the Holy Ghost is God
and together
THEY ARE ONE GOD. The ONLY One God.

Or do you think God lied in Isaiah 43:10 where HE said no other gods exist, or in 44:6 or in 44:8 where he repeated that in other words, and where He said HE DIDN"T EVEN KNOW any other gods? Are you REALLY willing to call God a liar?

I'll just BELIEVE GOD and BELIEVE that they are the ONE TRUE GOD of the Bible.

You may continue to believe your heretic 'prophet' joey smith.

[alanmolstad]

[COLOR=#0000cd]
They have been 'engaged' several times.
]


a few years ago we had a guy on this forum that also used to get himself stuck in a posting 'loop" where he would post the same thing over and over.

for a while a few other guests attempted to deal with the verses and stuff that the guy kept bringing up,,,but it was soon clear to all of us that the guy simply had nothing else to his religion.

People would tell the guy that his verses had already been dealt with "lets move on"....but the guy returned to posting the same stuff over and over anyway..


Over and over he would post the same stuff...


He would get criticized for the way it would gum-up the works around here and hold down the conversation, but he just never seemed to care.

Finally a few people had had enough of his same posts over and over.. and reported their problem with the guy's posts and requested some action taken.

and we all noticed that suddenly the guy stopped posting, or being able to post....




I heard little of the guy.....someone once told me he had gotten into trouble on a different forum, ,,for always posting the same things over and over... :)

[alanmolstad]

Interesting post, Alan, although, it might be considered suspect by most of Christianity.

.

still waiting to read the support for your saying 'most of Christianity" ?????



I coould understand it if you had said, "Non-Christians" might find my words suspect

i could understand if you had said,, "The CULTS" would find my words suspect.

I could even understand if you had said, "The people that dont know squat about the Bible" might find my words suspect.


But you said, "Most of Christianity"...?????......and that I will have to see you back that up........... or take it back.....

[DrDavidT]

Sure there is. It's just often difficult for humans to achieve, especially when they don't even try.


Don't know them.


How so?


Probably, but not in the way that you think. ;)

No there isn't.

Of course you don't they are scholars, people mormons do not read.

Just what I said, there is no middle ground.

avoidance

[dberrie2000]

The FACT is that

The Father is God
Jesus is God
the Holy Ghost is God
and together
[I]THEY ARE ONE GOD. The ONLY One God.

Again--where in the Biblical NT does it ever combine God the Father, God the Son--and God the holy Ghost into the "one God"?

Please do engage these scriptures:

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

[alanmolstad]

Again--where in the Biblical NT does it ever combine God the Father, God the Son--and God the holy Ghost into the "one God"?

Please do engage these scriptures:

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
thats right...get it out of your system...

I have seen this happen to people before,,,they get caught in a loop and cant seem to find new things to post...

best to just let them have at it and be done with it...

[Erundur]

No there isn't.

Of course you don't they are scholars, people mormons do not read.

Just what I said, there is no middle ground.

avoidance
Well, that post was a whole lotta nuthin'.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostAgain--where in the Biblical NT does it ever combine God the Father, God the Son--and God the holy Ghost into the "one God"?

Please do engage these scriptures:

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


thats right...get it out of your system...

I have seen this happen to people before,,,they get caught in a loop and cant seem to find new things to post...

best to just let them have at it and be done with it...

I don't believe Christians are ever going to get what the Bible testifies to as truth--out of their system. If they do--then they are no longer Christian, or don't follow Christian doctrine.

Care to address the scriptures above?

[alanmolstad]

Care to address the scriptures above?well..I was just going to stay out of the way as you seem to just want to post the same stuff over and over...I was going to wait until you become fatigued from clicking "PASTE"....and I think that might be a while yet...

So feel free to keep posting the same comment a bunch more times....
I will check in the morning to see if there is anything relevant to respond to...( I guess I will have to just learn how to click "paste" too)

[dberrie2000]

well..I was just going to stay out of the way as you seem to just want to post the same stuff over and over...I was going to wait until you become fatigued from clicking "PASTE"....and I think that might be a while yet...

So feel free to keep posting the same comment a bunch more times....
I will check in the morning to see if there is anything relevant to respond to...( I guess I will have to just learn how to click "paste" too)

No one has yet to engage the posted scriptures. Those scriptures are where the concerns lies, and trumps long winded personal opinions, IMO.

Does anyone care to explain why posters don't engage scriptures which defy their theology--or label them "out of context", "repe***ious", etc?

Denial, diversion, or taint so! arguments are neither convincing nor compelling.

Would you care to address the above scriptures themselves?

[alanmolstad]

No one has yet to engage the posted scriptures......
Oh they have been addressed just fine...but not to your personal liking it would seem... :)

Thus, oh you go right ahead and keep on posting the same comments over and over...and Im just going to sit out your little run on the old treadmill until I see something kinda interesting or relevant.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostNo one has yet to engage the posted scriptures......


Oh they have been addressed just fine...

Cite, please.


.and Im just going to sit out your little run on the old treadmill until I see something kinda interesting or relevant.

What is there about the above scriptures do you not find as "relevant"?

Care to engage the above scriptures?

[alanmolstad]

Unless you can prove this objectively, this is just worthless anti-Mormon bigotry that doesn't answer the question.

Please note:
http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?793-Derogatory-Terms

"The definition of a derogatory term is one that insults, belittles or treats a group or individual with contempt. This applies to terms like "anti-Mormon" and "Circuit Mormon".

Effective immediately, members who use derogatory terms will be warned once, and the second time they will be banned indefinitely without warning. A third infraction will result in a long term account suspension."

[alanmolstad]

Cite, please.



.....



You can lead a horse to water.....but.....

But just because I can use copy/paste just as much as the next guy...here you go...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_Q7VbhkrVw

[DrDavidT]

Well, that post was a whole lotta nuthin'.

just giving back what i get from you

[dberrie2000]

You can lead a horse to water.....but.....

But just because I can use copy/paste just as much as the next guy...here you go...

Alan--why don't you use the Biblical record as a copy and paste source?

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Care to answer to those previously posted scriptures?

[alanmolstad]

Alan--why don't you use the Biblical record as a copy and paste source?

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Care to answer to those previously posted scriptures?

there didnt feel sooooo much better not having to come up with anything new?


I tell you copy/paste might be the wave of the future!

, why bother to come up with new ideas that are interesting to read, when you can just turn your brain off and automatically post the same stuff over and over each day and save...oh, so much time?



as for me?...oh Im still waiting to learn how my views on the Trinity are held suspect by any Christians,,,let alone "most"???

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostAlan--why don't you use the Biblical record as a copy and paste source?

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Care to answer to those previously posted scriptures?


there didnt feel sooooo much better not having to come up with anything new?

I tell you copy/paste might be the wave of the future!

, why bother to come up with new ideas that are interesting to read, when you can just turn your brain off and automatically post the same stuff over and over each day and save...oh, so much time?

Why does one have to turn their brain off when engaging the Word of God?

Alan--the above scriptures are integral to the Biblical NT--why not engage them?

Is it because it violates the theology of some of those here claiming otherwise?

[alanmolstad]

Is it because it violates the theology of some of those here claiming otherwise?

Would the "those" be the same "most Christians" that would view my post on the Trinity as being "suspect"?

[dberrie2000]

Would the "those" be the same "most Christians" that would view my post on the Trinity as being "suspect"?

The "Christians" that would view your theology as "suspect" would be these:

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

[Christian]

berry posted:

The "Christians" that would view your theology as "suspect" would be these:

That DOES seem to be YOUR UNCHRISTIAN theory, but of course you "rednecking' a word in to the middle of a sentence TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT only shows your ignorance.

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Yep, according to the Apostle Paul the FATHER IS GOD and JESUS IS GOD, and JESUS mediates between us and the Father.

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Yep, they ARE ONE GOD, not two or five or 1,265,811 gods in their own little universes.

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Yep, the FATHER is the FATHER of Jesus through Mary. and we will be will 'father' us again in hope by the resurrection of Jesus from the dead.

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.[/QUOTE]

So far nothing 'suspect.' Peter, John and Paul and I all believe the same stuff. We also all believe

Isa 43:10
10 "You are My witnesses," says the Lord,
"And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.
NKJV

AND

Isa 44:6
Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
'I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.
NKJV


AND

Isa 44:8
8 Do not fear, nor be afraid;
Have I not told you from that time, and declared it?
You are My witnesses.
Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one.'"
NKJV


Apparently YOU DON'T BELIEVE THOSE SCRIPTURES.

THEY TELL US that even though
Jesus is God
the Father is God, but is not Jesus
the Holy Spirit is God but is neither Jesus nor the Father

THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD.

I guess you don't believe those scriptures, do you?

[DrDavidT]

there is absolutely no reason to choose the mormon belief or any other cultic belief over christianity.

[dberrie2000]

there is absolutely no reason to choose the mormon belief or any other cultic belief over christianity.

Hi David:

Would you care to address the posted scriptures--instead of the straw man arguments?

How do you fit the Biblical NT witness into faith alone theology?

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

[DrDavidT]

i haven't raised any straw man arguments. there is absolutely no reason to choose the mormon ideology over true christianity.

[dberrie2000]

there is absolutely no reason to choose the mormon ideology over true christianity.

In the LDS church--one does not have to make that choice. They believe true Christianity is reflected in the Biblical NT witness above--which you have not engaged--nor proffered any Biblical scripture to back your argument.

So--what do you find in the Biblical NT--which is not found in the LDS church, as far as salvational doctrines go?

1 Peter 4:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

[DrDavidT]

In the LDS church--one does not have to make that choice. They believe true Christianity is reflected in the Biblical NT witness above--which you have not engaged--nor proffered any Biblical scripture to back your argument.

So--what do you find in the Biblical NT--which is not found in the LDS church, as far as salvational doctrines go?

1 Peter 4:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

I raised issues which you have avoided discussing. You then quote verses that apply to nothing that is being discussed. your attempt to derail the threads where serious questions are asked , questions which demand more of an answer than what you or any other mormon has provided so far. Stop derailing the discussion and honestly answer the points made to you. I am already aware that mormons are taught to change the question asked to something they prefer to talk about but you are not in mormon cl*** but a public discussion forum on mormonism

[dberrie2000]

I raised issues which you have avoided discussing. You then quote verses that apply to nothing that is being discussed.

What is it about the posted scriptures you feel is not related to the discussion?

I believe one should pick the LDS church because what is found in the Biblical NT record--is also found in the LDS church, IE--

2 John 9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

[DrDavidT]

What is it about the posted scriptures you feel is not related to the discussion?

I believe one should pick the LDS church because what is found in the Biblical NT record--is also found in the LDS church, IE--

2 John 9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

it is also found in many christian denominations but those denominations do nt have secret ceremonies, baptizing for the dead, magic underwear and so much more. you have not shown where the mormons abide in the doctrine of Christ as I have asked you for the p***ages where Jesus taught to baptize for the dead, have secret ceremonies, that lucifer was his brother and so on. prove you are in the doctrine of Christ. throwing scripture on a discussion board is not proof.

[dberrie2000]

it is also found in many christian denominations but those denominations do nt have secret ceremonies, baptizing for the dead,

Are you referencing this?

Revelation 2:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

1 Corinthians 15:29---King James Version (KJV)
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

[DrDavidT]

Are you referencing this?

Revelation 2:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

1 Corinthians 15:29---King James Version (KJV)
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

no there is NO teaching there for believers to baptize the dead

[DrDavidT]

Are you referencing this?

Revelation 2:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

1 Corinthians 15:29---King James Version (KJV)
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

what I do see is how mormons pervert scripture

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Are you referencing this?

Revelation 2:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

1 Corinthians 15:29---King James Version (KJV)
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?


what I do see is how mormons pervert scripture

Hi David:

What do you find as perverted about the above scriptures? That seems like the usual retort of those whenever scriptures are posted which does not fit their theology.

David--those scriptures fit the LDS theology just fine. They have an answer for how they fit into Christianity, and the Biblical text. How do you fit them into your theology?

[Christian]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Are you referencing this?

Revelation 2:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

1 Corinthians 15:29---King James Version (KJV)
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

Hi David:

What do you find as perverted about the above scriptures? That seems like the usual retort of those whenever scriptures are posted which does not fit their theology.

David--those scriptures fit the LDS theology just fine. They have an answer for how they fit into Christianity, and the Biblical text. How do you fit them into your theology?

The SCRIPTURES THEMSELVES are not perverted (ONLY THE BIBLE is real SCRIPTURE, your mormon fairytale writings are not from God), but it is your PERVERTED ATTEMPTS TO TEACH them that is perverted.

For instance, you might pretend that ONLY CHRISTIANS WHO DO your manmade temple duties, send enough $$$ to your church, do enough 'home teaching' etc etc etc will be with God when they die, or that if they DO ENOUGH they will become gods themselves. . .THAT IS SIMPLY A LIE.

Your 2nd p***age YOU PRESENT AS REASON FOR YOU to baptize for the dead, IGNORING THE FACT that Paul is talking about UNBELIEVERS who were practicing that, NOT CHRISTIANS. In the previous BIBLE paragraphs it shows that those doing it DID NOT BELIEVE IN THE RESURRECTION, did not believe Jesus was resurrected, thus were NOT CHRISTIANS AT ALL.

AND the p***age shows Paul referring to 'THEY' and NEVER 'we.'

Your religion lies to you, berry.

[Christian]

a few years ago we had a guy on this forum that also used to get himself stuck in a posting 'loop" where he would post the same thing over and over.

for a while a few other guests attempted to deal with the verses and stuff that the guy kept bringing up,,,but it was soon clear to all of us that the guy simply had nothing else to his religion.

People would tell the guy that his verses had already been dealt with "lets move on"....but the guy returned to posting the same stuff over and over anyway..


Over and over he would post the same stuff...


He would get criticized for the way it would gum-up the works around here and hold down the conversation, but he just never seemed to care.

Finally a few people had had enough of his same posts over and over.. and reported their problem with the guy's posts and requested some action taken.

and we all noticed that suddenly the guy stopped posting, or being able to post....




I heard little of the guy.....someone once told me he had gotten into trouble on a different forum, ,,for always posting the same things over and over... :)

You must be talking about 'dberry.'

[alanmolstad]

You must be talking about 'dberry.'


whenever we have to lose a guest due to their manners or rule-breaking, I always wish I could have just talked to the person one-on-one to see what their problem is?
Why do they continue to do the one thing that they must know full well with get them trouble?

On this message forum they have such tremendous freedom to post their views...all they have to do is channel and contain their posts in such a way as to remain within the given rules.
But some people just cant remain within the rules, no matter how much I try to get them to adjust.

Im not sure about some people...some people just seem to enjoy picking a fight...

[dberrie2000]

[COLOR=#0000cd]The SCRIPTURES THEMSELVES are not perverted (ONLY THE BIBLE is real SCRIPTURE, your mormon fairytale writings are not from God)

What about the above scriptures do you feel--"are not from God"?

[DrDavidT]

Hi David:

What do you find as perverted about the above scriptures? That seems like the usual retort of those whenever scriptures are posted which does not fit their theology.

David--those scriptures fit the LDS theology just fine. They have an answer for how they fit into Christianity, and the Biblical text. How do you fit them into your theology?

twisting what people say is not discussion but avoidance of the issue

[dberrie2000]

twisting what people say is not discussion but avoidance of the issue

Hi David:

Erecting straw man arguments and avoidance of the Biblical scriptures is not what I call an engaging dialog.

Care to engage the posted scriptures?

Revelation 2:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

1 Corinthians 15:29---King James Version (KJV)
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

[Christian]

I am not a protestant, but while you are waiting for one to respond, i want to elaborate on your logic.

logically, most people belong to the church they belong to, because they believe its teachings are superior to any other church's teachings. For Christians, they believe their denomination is closer to the teachings of Jesus' original church than the teachings of any other denomination.

this is logical because if a person believed that some other denomination had teachings that were closer to the original's than the one the person is currently in, the person would leave it and join the one he believed was closer to the original. after all, why would someone stay in a church he believed has less-correct teachings than some other church? that wouldn't be logical.

so your thread is really asking posters who belong to a protestant denomination (or a non-denominational church) this question:

"why do you think your sect has the most correct teachings of all the churches and sects currently on the earth?"


Only the cultists seem to believe that their sect/cult/religion is the most 'correct' on the earth.

We CHRISTIANS recognize that our own congregation/church/group is only one PART of the WHOLE CHRISTIAN church, the one that Jesus built.

'Johnny-come-lately' religions such as mormonism try to 'prove' they are better, but of course, they are merely each only one more cult. The utah mormons are simply one more of the 150+ lds religions. They are nothing special. They just want to add more 'religion' to their religion than other folks have. More rules, ordinances, and goals than GOD ever gave.

GOD said nothing about exalting men to godhood.
GOD said nothing about CHRISTIANS ever 'baptizing' for the dead
GOD said nothing about CHRISTIAN temples or ordinances

GOD said nothing about faithful CHRISTIANS 'forgetting' their doctrine, or 'losing their authority' or 'having Christ's church removed from the earth.
God said nothing about HIS BEING ANY "EXALTED MAN" anywhere, but instead said the complete OPPOSITE.

Those are all joey smith's INVENTED RELIGION, nothing more. They are not from God.

[Christian]

But how does this favor Protestantism? Do you believe that if Mormonism is false, then Protestantism must be true by default?

"Protestantism?" WHAT RELIGION IS THAT? WHERE IS ITS HEADQUARTERS? WHO IS ITS LEADER?

Oh that's right. . .it is the imaginary 'dumping ground' of the roman catholics, in which they dump all NON-rcc religions, INCLUDING THE MORMON RELIGION.

So the utah lds religion is a protestant religion. . .BY DEFINITION :rolleyes:

[Christian]

I believe that Mormonism is false based only on the fact that Joe Smith lied and made up the whole wild story about angels and finding stuff.

This means that I believe that all Mormons worship a false god....and have a false Christ.

This means that they are unforgiven, and are still in their sins when they die...and therefore doomed.
Joe Smith lied...He made up the whole stinking pile of ideas that he convinced others to believe in...


Joe did this for mostly 2 main reasons...
He wanted to turn the story into a way to earn easy money.
and,he wanted to cheat on his wife with other women.

Joe was a con man.
AMEN! You hit the nail on the head!
Joey was a con man!

[Christian]

Well, it's been a week, and no one has offered a single reason to choose any Protestant church. Are there any conclusions we can draw from that fact?

Just that the bad phrasing of your question demonstrates your ignorance and nobody but you seems to be interested.

[Christian]

But the Catholic Church is built on the truth that Jesus is the Savior and the Son of God---that's part of the church's foundational tenets or core beliefs.


and you said that Jesus stated that He would build His church on the truth that He is the Savior and the Son of God. There was and is no need for any other church to be built or restored

that means that if we believe your logic, there was no need for Protestant churches to be created.


Your attempted 'logic' is based on a fales premise. The rcc SAYS it is built on that truth, BUT IN REALITY it is not. INSTEAD, it is built upon a bunch of manmade claptrap that they redefined and/or made up themselves.

They pray to non-gods, not the REAL GOD.
They think their wafer/cracker/host/bread product is Jesus Christ; they don't follow the REAL Jesus hrist

BOTH junk religions, the rcc and the lds, were made by MAN, and did not come from God.

ALL of the 150+ 'lds' religions claim their church is built on that same truth.

But of course, they are not. Just like the utah mormons are not. They are just one more cult.

[alanmolstad]

AMEN! You hit the nail on the head!
Joey was a con man!


thanks! :)

[DrDavidT]

Hi David:

Erecting straw man arguments and avoidance of the Biblical scriptures is not what I call an engaging dialog.

Care to engage the posted scriptures?

Revelation 2:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

1 Corinthians 15:29---King James Version (KJV)
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

neither of those scripture provides instructions for humans to do those things on earth.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostHi David:

Erecting straw man arguments and avoidance of the Biblical scriptures is not what I call an engaging dialog.

Care to engage the posted scriptures?

Revelation 2:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

1 Corinthians 15:29---King James Version (KJV)
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?


neither of those scripture provides instructions for humans to do those things on earth.

Then you believe it is a reference to something that is being done in heaven? That it isn't man which is referred to?

Revelation 2:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

[DrDavidT]

Then you believe it is a reference to something that is being done in heaven? That it isn't man which is referred to?

Revelation 2:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

you do not understand scripture and keep twisting my answers to fit what you want to think. I never said man was wasn't referred to. I said there is NO instruction for humans to do this to other humans.

[dberrie2000]

you do not understand scripture and keep twisting my answers to fit what you want to think. I never said man was wasn't referred to. I said there is NO instruction for humans to do this to other humans.

There is no instructions--period. There is just the testimony of what one receives:

Revelation 2:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

So--how do you fit that into your theology? It fits the LDS theology well.

David--most of the Christian world makes talk and speculation over things such as that scripture--but God's church fulfills those scriptures in real terms.

[alanmolstad]

I believe that Mormonism is false based only on the fact that Joe Smith lied and made up the whole wild story about angels and finding stuff.

This means that I believe that all Mormons worship a false god....and have a false Christ.

This means that they are unforgiven, and are still in their sins when they die...and therefore doomed.
Joe Smith lied...He made up the whole stinking pile of ideas that he convinced others to believe in...


Joe did this for mostly 2 main reasons...
He wanted to turn the story into a way to earn easy money.
and,he wanted to cheat on his wife with other women.

Joe was a con man.

now..as for what church should a person attend?...I always suggest a person go visit the local Christian churches in your local area and get a idea of where you think you might fit in and find a place.

As long as the chirstian church teaches the core teachings of the church, I think the next important thing is that the local church you become a member of is one that seems open to the type of person that you are.
Each person is a little different, and so the church that I pick out for myself is not always going to match what you should decide to attend.