Bible alone?

[disciple]

Greetings,
I would be interested in hearing from some Mormon's on this question. Can a man be saved, become born again, receive eternal life, etc., by having only the 66 books of the Bible? Thanks.

[disciple]

Can salvation come by having only part of the gospel? Your question makes it seem like you believe salvation is dependent on the Bible when its not.

A gospel that limits Jesus to 66 books is no gospel at all. The Bible teaches salvation but a belief in the Bible will never actually bring salvation itself. That is only through Jesus Christ. However, part of that is having correct doctrines.

The prophets never said prophets were exclusive to Jerusalem. The Bible alone is not a true principle. The books in the Canon have changed over time such as the Revelation of Peter once being part of it

Perhaps you didn't understand my question, I'll reword it. Can a man come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ with the truth revealed in the Bible? You said "that a gospel that limits Jesus to 66 books is no gospel at all." Here are just a few of many verses that disagree with that statement.

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.” Rom. 1:16

“So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” Rom. 10:17

“In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.” Eph. 1:13-14

[alanmolstad]

Can a man come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ with the truth revealed in the Bible? .....


"that a gospel that limits Jesus to 66 books is no gospel at all."[/B] Here are just a few of many verses that disagree with that statement.

...


The answer to your question is - YES!


The person's answer you quoted is both in error, and very silly.

[theway]

Perhaps you didn't understand my question, I'll reword it. Can a man come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ with the truth revealed in the Bible? You said "that a gospel that limits Jesus to 66 books is no gospel at all." Here are just a few of many verses that disagree with that statement.
Your statement is contradictory in and of itself. For instance, the Bible which only has 66 books in it, is a very modern Protestant version of the scriptures. In fact, the version containing 73 books is still the most popular version.
Does this mean you are asking whether anyone having more than 66 books can not know salvation?
Seems to me that if you are saved knowing 66 books, then knowing more could not hurt....
Perhaps then you meant that having less than the allotted 66 Protestant books means you can not gain a knowledge of salvation? If that is true, then you have written off all the Christians for the first 300 years???
And as its are already pointed out to you, having a knowledge of salvation will not, and can not, save anybody. As with Adam and Eve, simply gaining knowledge of truth can actually get you into trouble.
I will disagree with the other poster however; you have not limited God in your beliefs, you are only limiting yourself.
I think you need to rethink, rework, rephrase, rewrite and then clarify your question a bit more first.

[disciple]

Your statement is contradictory in and of itself. For instance, the Bible which only has 66 books in it, is a very modern Protestant version of the scriptures. In fact, the version containing 73 books is still the most popular version.
Does this mean you are asking whether anyone having more than 66 books can not know salvation?
Seems to me that if you are saved knowing 66 books, then knowing more could not hurt....
Perhaps then you meant that having less than the allotted 66 Protestant books means you can not gain a knowledge of salvation? If that is true, then you have written off all the Christians for the first 300 years???
And as its are already pointed out to you, having a knowledge of salvation will not, and can not, save anybody. As with Adam and Eve, simply gaining knowledge of truth can actually get you into trouble.
I will disagree with the other poster however; you have not limited God in your beliefs, you are only limiting yourself.
I think you need to rethink, rework, rephrase, rewrite and then clarify your question a bit more first.

Ok I will rephrase, can a man come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ with the truth revealed in the Bible without the Book of Mormon, the Book of Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price?

[Christian]

Can salvation come by having only part of the gospel? Your question makes it seem like you believe salvation is dependent on the Bible when its not.

A gospel that limits Jesus to 66 books is no gospel at all. The Bible teaches salvation but a belief in the Bible will never actually bring salvation itself. That is only through Jesus Christ. However, part of that is having correct doctrines.

The prophets never said prophets were exclusive to Jerusalem. The Bible alone is not a true principle. The books in the Canon have changed over time such as the Revelation of Peter once being part of it

Please SHOW US that joey smith's fantasies are any part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Then read 1 Corinthians 15:1ff. . .THAT is the gospel...ALL of it.

THEN SHOW US HOW JESUS BUILT A CHURCH THAT WOULD 'lose' part of its Gospel, WHAT you think was lost, and WHY you think joey smith's fantasies = more gospel.

THEN read Galatians 1:6-10 to see what your 'new' gospel will get you. . .

[theway]

Ok I will rephrase, can a man come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ with the truth revealed in the Bible without the Book of Mormon, the Book of Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price?
You did not really rephrase it, you simply repeated your first nonsensical question while hiding the part which shows the fallacy in your question. All you did was make your position even more vague so as not to have to commit to anything.
For instance, you never stated exactly WHAT Bible/s you are talking about?
One of the Early Christian collections?
The Catholic Bible?
The Orthodox Bibles?
Or the Modern Protestant Bible?

You wouldn't want me to answer based on inadequate or potentially false information would you?

[theway]

Does anyone know of a good forum for Mormon - Modern Christian debate.
This one is sooooooo.... dead, although it really was not very good to begin with, and CARM has become too restrictive.

[Phoenix]

Does anyone know of a good forum for Mormon - Modern Christian debate.
This one is sooooooo.... dead, although it really was not very good to begin with, and CARM has become too restrictive.
The best one I know of is probably patheos.com

"Patheos is a non-denominational, non-partisan online media company providing information and commentary from various religious and nonreligious perspectives.

Upon its launch in May 2009, the website was primarily geared toward learning about religions through a reference library and other peer-reviewed resources on 27 global religions. In its current form, the site also hosts more than 450 blogs in eleven "Faith Channels," offering commentary and news from these perspectives in topics including politics, ins***utions, culture, sacred texts, history, lifestyle, entertainment, family life, and business. Patheos is the largest English language religion and spirituality site in the world, while the Catholic, Progressive Christian, Atheist, and Pagan Channels cons***ute the largest web presence for each of their respective traditions."

[disciple]

You did not really rephrase it, you simply repeated your first nonsensical question while hiding the part which shows the fallacy in your question. All you did was make your position even more vague so as not to have to commit to anything.
For instance, you never stated exactly WHAT Bible/s you are talking about?
One of the Early Christian collections?
The Catholic Bible?
The Orthodox Bibles?
Or the Modern Protestant Bible?

You wouldn't want me to answer based on inadequate or potentially false information would you?

Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, based on the evasiveness, childishness and rudeness of this witness it is evident that he
knows that the Book of Mormon, the Book of Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price have no bearing on salvation
and further more his fear of being wrong has made him sarcastic.
I rest my case.

[theway]

Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, based on the evasiveness, childishness and rudeness of this witness it is evident that he
knows that the Book of Mormon, the Book of Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price have no bearing on salvation
and further more his fear of being wrong has made him sarcastic.
I rest my case.LOL.... There aren't even enough people who visit this site to make up a 12 person jury.
However, I would call everybody's attention to the fact that you have yet to pick which Bible it is you are talking about?
As a person on the witness stand, I am perfectly within my rights to ask for clarification of your question first before answering.
Yet you not only refused to clarify your question, you made it even more confusing.
So when I once again asked you to explain your contradictory question, you instead took "The Fifth Amendment" fearing self incrimination.

But it really doesn't matter, as I in fact, have already answered your question... Or should I say, I got you to answer it for me without you even realizing it... My case was proven at the point you realized the facility of your question. That's why the judge, jury and audience have already gone home.... Please turn the lights off on your way out.

LOL.... It's just too easy sometimes...

[disciple]

LOL.... There aren't even enough people who visit this site to make up a 12 person jury.
However, I would call everybody's attention to the fact that you have yet to pick which Bible it isyou are talking about?
Instead you took "The Fifth Amendment" fearing self incrimination.

I in fact, already answered your question... Or should I say, I got you to answer it for me without you even realizing it...

It's just too easy sometimes.

I think everyone including you knows what Bible I'm referring to. But so your clear I use NKJV.
Glad you have a sense of humor.

[theway]

The best one I know of is probably patheos.com

"Patheos is a non-denominational, non-partisan online media company providing information and commentary from various religious and nonreligious perspectives.

Upon its launch in May 2009, the website was primarily geared toward learning about religions through a reference library and other peer-reviewed resources on 27 global religions. In its current form, the site also hosts more than 450 blogs in eleven "Faith Channels," offering commentary and news from these perspectives in topics including politics, ins***utions, culture, sacred texts, history, lifestyle, entertainment, family life, and business. Patheos is the largest English language religion and spirituality site in the world, while the Catholic, Progressive Christian, Atheist, and Pagan Channels cons***ute the largest web presence for each of their respective traditions."Thanks, I notice one of the Scholars on there used to be in my Ward a year ago.

[theway]

I think everyone including you knows what Bible I'm referring to. But so your clear I use NKJV.
Glad you have a sense of humor.
I take it then you believe that only the New King James Version, aka, "The Protestant Bible" is the only version that contains the saving gospel.
Does that mean that you believe that only Protestants are saved because they have 66 books as opposed to the old 80 books?

That's begs the question... What was wrong with the Old King James Version of the Bible???

Or any of the Versions before that?

[disciple]

Well that answer took long enough to give. Here's a question for your question: the Old and New Testaments are two different accounts of the Messiah's dealings with the people, the former being through revelations through the prophets and the latter being direct, physical dealings prior to revelations through the apostles and more prophets. The Jews of today believe in the teachings found in the Old Testament, or the Tanakh to them. With all of that said, the question is can the Jews obtain salvation through the Messiah by following just the principles found in the Tanakh without following anything in the New Testament?

There is no difference between the means of salvation found in the Old and New Testaments. The “Scriptures” mentioned in the New Testament are overwhelmingly
Old Testament. In Romans 4 the apostle Paul makes it very clear that the Old Testament way of salvation was the same as the New Testament way, which is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. To prove this, Paul points us to Abraham, who was saved by faith: “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness” (Romans 4:3). Again, Paul quotes the Old Testament to prove his point—Genesis 15:6, this time. Abraham could not have been saved by keeping the Law, because he lived over 400 years before the Law was given.
In John 5:39 we read, “You study the scriptures thoroughly because you think in them you possess eternal life, and it is these same scriptures that testify about me;” Jesus was obviously referring to Old Testament that spoke of Him. In Luke 24:27 it is stated “Then beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them the things written about himself in all the scriptures.” Again Luke states in Acts 17:11 referring to the Berean believers, “These Jews were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica; for they eagerly received the message, examining the scriptures carefully every day to see if these things were so.” So yes salvation can be found in the Old Testament because it’s the same Savior found in the New Testament.

[disciple]

I take it then you believe that only the New King James Version, aka, "The Protestant Bible" is the only version that contains the saving gospel.
Does that mean that you believe that only Protestants are saved because they have 66 books as opposed to the old 80 books?

That's begs the question... What was wrong with the Old King James Version of the Bible???

Or any of the Versions before that?

The Gospel is for all humanity. You act as if those you consider "protestant" are happily hoping everyone not protestant is going to end up in hell. True followers of Jesus Christ want the same things He wants. My point is obvious, if you believe that the Book of Mormon, the Book of Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price have some role in salvation you are sincerely wrong.

[theway]

The Gospel is for all humanity. You act as if those you consider "protestant" are happily hoping everyone not protestant is going to end up in hell. True followers of Jesus Christ want the same things He wants. My point is obvious, if you believe that the Book of Mormon, the Book of Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price have some role in salvation you are sincerely wrong.
Unsurprisingly, you did not answer my question... What is wrong with a Bible that has more books than the Modern "New" version?

If you can be saved with 80 books instead of only 66 books, then you are admitting it doesn't matter whether someone had more scripture... Or less, (depending which side you are looking from).
But then your question is false by its premise. A book, even a book of scripture, has no power to save anyone.
It is merely a tool like prayer, fasting, good works, repentance... Etc, etc.... They are all tools or maps leading to salvation. So what does it matter to you if I have more information to go on, thereby making the road ahead easier?

[disciple]

Unsurprisingly, you did not answer my question... What is wrong with a Bible that has more books than the Modern "New" version?

If you can be saved with 80 books instead of only 66 books, then you are admitting it doesn't matter whether someone had more scripture... Or less, (depending which side you are looking from).
But then your question is false by its premise. A book, even a book of scripture, has no power to save anyone.
It is merely a tool like prayer, fasting, good works, repentance... Etc, etc.... They are all tools or maps leading to salvation. So what does it matter to you if I have more information to go on, thereby making the road ahead easier?

The information must be true or the road leads to hell. Try the narrow way.

[theway]

The information must be true or the road leads to hell. Try the narrow way.That is why I don't rely on one's opinion or ones interpretation of scripture... Even if it is my own.
That is also why the number of books, our volume of scripture has little to do with salvation.
If I have a thousand books of scripture it will make little difference to my spiritual growth if I understand and apply it incorrectly.
Likewise, if I am able to correctly interpret one book of scripture and have it confirmed by the Holy Ghost to be true... Then I am far far better off. (But that still will not make me saved)

[disciple]

That is why I don't rely on one's opinion or ones interpretation of scripture... Even if it is my own.
That is also why the number of books, our volume of scripture has little to do with salvation.
If I have a thousand books of scripture it will make little difference to my spiritual growth if I understand and apply it incorrectly.
Likewise, if I am able to correctly interpret one book of scripture and have it confirmed by the Holy Ghost to be true... Then I am far far better off. (But that still will not make me saved)

How are you saved Way?

[theway]

How are you saved Way?
I'm going to take it that you are referring to Salvation from spiritual death... That being the case the answer is....

AOF 3: We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

[disciple]

I'm going to take it that you are referring to Salvation from spiritual death... That being the case the answer is....

AOF 3: We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

AOF 3 says, you must obey the following to be saved ,AOF 4: "We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost."
But in the New Testament, obviously written before your AOF we have many verses that don't agree, here are two.

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.” Eph 2:8-9

“That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.” Rom 10:9-10

What if you obey first, second and third but not forth, laying on of hands are you still lost?

[theway]

AOF 3 says, you must obey the following to be saved ,AOF 4: "We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost."
But in the New Testament, obviously written before your AOF we have many verses that don't agree, here are two.

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.” Eph 2:8-9

“That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.” Rom 10:9-10Please.... Even you don't believe in this Modern heretical Faith Alone nonsense... Otherwise you wouldn't of created this thread telling us salvation exists within the Protestant 66 books. To hold true to your Faith Alone beliefs you should be telling us that the Bible in any form or version is not needed for salvation.


What if you obey first, second and third but not forth, laying on of hands are you still lost?Yes..... Even you will agree that without receiving the Holy Ghost you can not be saved.
But then once again I ask... What does it matter to you?
You believe Faith in Christ is all that is required...
We believe Faith in Christ is required, and obedience is also required...

Seems to me as a Mormon I have both bases covered... So what are you complaining about???
I'm saved according to both your theology and mine.

[disciple]

Please.... Even you don't believe in this Modern heretical Faith Alone nonsense... Otherwise you wouldn't of created this thread telling us salvation exists within the Protestant 66 books. To hold true to your Faith Alone beliefs you should be telling us that the Bible in any form or version is not needed for salvation.

Yes..... Even you will agree that without receiving the Holy Ghost you can not be saved.
But then once again I ask... What does it matter to you?
You believe Faith in Christ is all that is required...
We believe Faith in Christ is required, and obedience is also required...

Seems to me as a Mormon I have both bases covered... So what are you complaining about???
I'm saved according to both your theology and mine.

Way, I'm sorry you are so thoroughly deceived.

[theway]

Way, I'm sorry you are so thoroughly deceived.Im sorry... Deceived in what way???
Please show where my ***essment of your beliefs is incorrect?

[disciple]

So do you believe the Old Testament is all we need? You and other critics always cry "We don't need the Book of Mormon. We have all the gospel we need in the Bible," but now you say the Old Testament has all we need yet you still follow the New Testament, and I use the term folloe very very loosely.

I clearly said that there is no difference between the means of salvation found in the Old and New Testaments and there isn't. So?

[disciple]

Im sorry... Deceived in what way???
Please show where my ***essment of your beliefs is incorrect?

Faith alone nonsense? Is Ephesians 2:8-9 nonsense? Is ***us 3:5 nonsense, John 5:24, Romans 10:9-10?
You believe in a mother god which is not mentioned once in the Bible, yet faith alone in Jesus Christ is nonsense. You are very deceived.

[alanmolstad]

You have a habit of avoiding answering questions.


On another running topic I cant even get people to ask me questions... :)




We are saved by grace, though faith.

In the Old Test we see the guys are said to have great faith, and it is counted as righteousness.
The works of some of the guys talked about in the Old Test is not so great however....
Many were leading rather evil lives.
But the one common thing they all seemed to have is a great faith.


Under the New Covenant, we Christians are not under the Law but now we live under grace, but the common thing we have with the men who lived under the Law is that we also have a great faith.
It is this common thing we share that makes us united with the men of the Old test.....our faith.

[Christian]

Faith alone is never taught in scripture. Faith is dead without works. Christ taught we are to do works of righteousness and Revelation teaches us we are judged for our WORKS. Paul taught we are to be DOERS, not just hearers, and that we are to work out our salvation l

This post shows the ignorance of the mormon religion about what 'faith alone' doctrine is.

FAITH IS NEVER ALONE.

BUT

FAITH BY ITSELF COMES FIRST.
We do the works BECAUSE WE HAVE FAITH IN JESUS.

NOT TO 'GET' faith in Jesus, but because we HAVE faith in Jesus.

And it is FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST that saves us.

Yes, we DO do good works. But NOT TO 'GET SAVED.' We are SAVED BY FAITH, not by 'doing good works.'

Eph 2:7-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

Gifts are not earned wages.

[Phoenix]

This post shows the ignorance of the mormon religion about what 'faith alone' doctrine is.
this post shows how ignorant some anti-mormons are about what saves us. keep reading....


And it is FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST that saves us.
We are SAVED BY FAITH, not by 'doing good works.'

most christians believe that we saved by grace, not by faith.


Gifts are not earned wages.
that is correct. so if someone tells you that there is a gift for you hidden somewhere, then it's not earned wages if you decide to search for the gift, and through your hard work, you find it.

[Christian]

cog posted:


Originally Posted by Christian

This post shows the ignorance of the mormon religion about what 'faith alone' doctrine is.

FAITH IS NEVER ALONE.

BUT

FAITH BY ITSELF COMES FIRST.
We do the works BECAUSE WE HAVE FAITH IN JESUS.

NOT TO 'GET' faith in Jesus, but because we HAVE faith in Jesus.

And it is FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST that saves us.

Yes, we DO do good works. But NOT TO 'GET SAVED.' We are SAVED BY FAITH, not by 'doing good works.'

Eph 2:7-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

Gifts are not earned wages.

Muslims have faith in Jesus Christ as a prophet, that doesn't mean they're saved.

Mormons have faith in a 'spirit-brother-of-satan' 'jesus,' but that doesn't mean they are saved either.

Nobody here has said works save, we save ourselves, etc. Nearly every critic of the church claims we believe our works save us when that's not what we believe at all

Works + Faith do not save you either. FAITH IN THE TRUE JESUS CHRIST is what counts as righteousness from Jesus:
Rom 4:5-8
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin."
NKJV

I am not interested in answering for 'nearly every critic of [your] church,' but the TRUTH is that your church does NOT teach that concept. Instead, it teaches a 'work for your exaltation to godhood' concept that the WORD OF GOD (the BIBLE) denies.

Works help us become like Christ, they're for our exaltation.

"Exaltation" to what? GODHOOD THAT GOD GIVES TO NOBODY? Naah, Works are simply FOR THE LORD, because we LOVE HIM. Not for OUR gain.

Salvation is in Christ but we are still required to obey Christ's commandments.

FAITH WORKS. FAITH PRODUCES works. IF you have faith, your works will reflect it. They are not 'required,' but if they are NOT there, you likely have no faith that would bring them about.

GODLY works are NOT for profit. They ARE NOT wages to 'earn' you any 'exaltation.'

IF your works are for GOD they are NOT FOR YOU.

The basic FLAW in the 'exaltation' theory of mormonism.

[Christian]

cog posted:
So we don't need anything other than 1 Corinthians 15:1? Dang, that's a lot of inspiration to ignore.

Gal 1:6-9
6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
NKJV

Jude 3-4
3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.
NKJV

Your new 'gospel' of 'exaltation to godhood,' and of false gods and a false christ condemn your religion.

What new gospel? We don't teach trinitarianism, that's Protestantism.

It's simply BIBLICAL.

The Father is God
Jesus is God
The Holy Ghost is GOD
and
THEY ARE ONE GOD (ISAIAH 43:10 etc etc etc)

We label that concept 'The Trinity.'

We teach the gospel of Jesus Christ and I've already shown it before and I will not keep repeating myself just because you choose to ignore the truth every time.

Just because YOU SAY it does NOT make it become the truth.

Your cult has conned you.

[Grandma]

Those verses have nothing to do with your idea. They simply teach us that salvation is in Christ. Nowhere do those verses say anything about a limit on scripture.

I understood the question, I just took it a step further in my answer. For one, there is no such thing as saving knowledge. Knowledge doesn't save.

For your question on a simpler level, I'll answer it with this question and scenario: World War II eventually contained Germany vs United States. There are books written about it from the average American's perspective; there also exists books and diaries of victims of the Holocaust who were actually in the concentration camps. The former people have an idea as to what is like and the latter were there to witness it first hand. Tell me, can you obtain a greater insight on the said war by reading one half of the story or will a person gain a greater fullness of study by reading and studying both sides of this international story?

The word of God has never been limited, at least not by God, Jesus, or the Holy Ghost. The idea of a closed canon is man's idea, not God's.

People interpret the Bible many different ways, its like a dot with never-ending lines being drawn through it. The Book of Mormon is the second dot on the paper. How many lines can be drawn between 2 dots? One. The Book of Mormon helps eliminate the many interpretations people apply to the Bible.

"The Bible can be interpreted differently" is something I hear people a lot. Applying it differently and interpreting it differently are 2 different things completely. Applying is "How can this part help me right now" whereas interpreting is "The doctrine is this." One can say they believe in Jesus all they want, false doctrine is false doctrine and no amount of devotion changes that.

The Bible is true but it isn't all God has given us. What happens if the Book of Mormon is true? Would you follow it since it comes from God or just use the Bible?


Salvation is by God's grace through faith in the blood of Jesus. The Gospel is the Good News that Jesus paid for the sins of all believers.

We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.
- Romans 8

Ignoring scripture and proceeding to write a book and call it scripture is a recipe for disaster!

Hoping you'll read the New Testament and see the incredible Good News within it's pages.

[Erundur]

Salvation is by God's grace through faith in the blood of Jesus.
Great! Mormons have faith in the blood of Jesus, so we must be saved, right?

[Grandma]

Please.... Even you don't believe in this Modern heretical Faith Alone nonsense... Otherwise you wouldn't of created this thread telling us salvation exists within the Protestant 66 books. To hold true to your Faith Alone beliefs you should be telling us that the Bible in any form or version is not needed for salvation.

Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

God uses His word to convince sinners. What we need is faith and God opens our ears, gives us faith, and gives us the new birth!

[Phoenix]

Great! Mormons have faith in the blood of Jesus, so we must be saved, right?

oops. now the goal-post-moving part of the attack on the mormons will begin....

[Grandma]

Great! Mormons have faith in the blood of Jesus, so we must be saved, right?

Not according to Mormonism --- D&C 130:20–21.

Hoping you'll read the New Testament and see the incredible Good News within it's pages.

[Grandma]

oops. now the goal-post-moving part of the attack on the mormons will begin....

Hopefully, no one will attack you.

[Phoenix]

Faith alone is never taught in scripture. Faith is dead without works. Christ taught we are to do works of righteousness and Revelation teaches us we are judged for our WORKS. Paul taught we are to be DOERS, not just hearers, and that we are to work out our salvation l

plus, paul told the corinthian christians that you can have all the faith in the world but if you don't have charity, you are nothing. charity is greater than faith and hope. so even paul--the apostle who is used by sola fide as their main source of dogma--taught that faith alone is nothing compared to charity.

[Grandma]

plus, paul told the corinthian christians that you can all the faith in the world but if you don't have charity, you are nothing. charity is greater than faith and hope. so even paul--the apostle who is used by sola fide as their main source of dogma--taught that faith alone is nothing compared to charity.

***us 3
3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;


1 Thessalonians 5:8
But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Love in Christ,

Grandma

[Phoenix]

... he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
this verse seems to be saying that he saved us by our water baptism and by the baptism of fire that came afterward.

which implies that there are things we must do in order to be saved. at least two of them---first have faith, and second be baptized. plus, other verses say that repentance is yet another thing we need to do in order to be saved, so that makes at least three.


... be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
that verse mentions what i already said: that charity (sometimes translated as love) is at least as necessary as faith is. so there is no way that faith alone can save you. you can have faith AND hope that jesus exists and that he loves you and that he died for you, and still not end up with eternal life. 2 out of 3 isn't good enough to get eternal life, if the one you lacked was charity. it is greater than faith and hope. it is so important that if you don't have it, you are nothing.

[Grandma]

Faith alone is never taught in scripture. Faith is dead without works. Christ taught we are to do works of righteousness and Revelation teaches us we are judged for our WORKS. Paul taught we are to be DOERS, not just hearers, and that we are to work out our salvation l

Faith isn't alone because it connects us to God.

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
John 15:5

Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Matthew 7:16

[Grandma]

this verse seems to be saying that he saved us by our water baptism and by the baptism of fire that came afterward.

which implies that there are things we must do in order to be saved. at least two of them---first have faith, and second be baptized. plus, other verses say that repentance is yet another thing we need to do in order to be saved, so that makes at least three.


that verse mentions what i already said: that charity (sometimes translated as love) is at least as necessary as faith is. so there is no way that faith alone can save you. you can have faith AND hope that jesus exists and that he loves you and that he died for you, and still not end up with eternal life. 2 out of 3 isn't good enough to get eternal life, if the one you lacked was charity. it is greater than faith and hope. it is so important that if you don't have it, you are nothing.

Those who have faith in Christ lack nothing.

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
John 15:5

Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

In Christian love,

Grandma

[Phoenix]

Those who have faith in Christ lack nothing.

Paul taught: "If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing."

[Grandma]

Paul taught: "If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing."

What is your point? Christians have love. And I'm very familiar with 1 Corinthians Chapter 13,


In Christian Love,

Grandma

[chuckt]

Does anyone know of a good forum for Mormon - Modern Christian debate.
This one is sooooooo.... dead, although it really was not very good to begin with, and CARM has become too restrictive.

There is a religion section at usmessageboard but they won't delete your account after you join and you should probably add an add blocker to your browser. There are a couple of users who will bait you so you get in trouble with the rules there. Their message board is the pit of hell though and they ended up with a Mormon moderator who doesn't always answer my questions. I had a past debate with him. I'm on the religion forum at somd right now and wouldn't want to take anyone away from this message board.

[Grandma]

Those verses have nothing to do with your idea. They simply teach us that salvation is in Christ. Nowhere do those verses say anything about a limit on scripture.

I understood the question, I just took it a step further in my answer. For one, there is no such thing as saving knowledge. Knowledge doesn't save.

For your question on a simpler level, I'll answer it with this question and scenario: World War II eventually contained Germany vs United States. There are books written about it from the average American's perspective; there also exists books and diaries of victims of the Holocaust who were actually in the concentration camps. The former people have an idea as to what is like and the latter were there to witness it first hand. Tell me, can you obtain a greater insight on the said war by reading one half of the story or will a person gain a greater fullness of study by reading and studying both sides of this international story?

The word of God has never been limited, at least not by God, Jesus, or the Holy Ghost. The idea of a closed canon is man's idea, not God's.

People interpret the Bible many different ways, its like a dot with never-ending lines being drawn through it. The Book of Mormon is the second dot on the paper. How many lines can be drawn between 2 dots? One. The Book of Mormon helps eliminate the many interpretations people apply to the Bible.

"The Bible can be interpreted differently" is something I hear people a lot. Applying it differently and interpreting it differently are 2 different things completely. Applying is "How can this part help me right now" whereas interpreting is "The doctrine is this." One can say they believe in Jesus all they want, false doctrine is false doctrine and no amount of devotion changes that.

The Bible is true but it isn't all God has given us. What happens if the Book of Mormon is true? Would you follow it since it comes from God or just use the Bible?

Mormons ignore the Gospel and add oodles of requirements for salvation that were dreamed up by Joseph Smith; those requirements contradict the Bible.

In Christian love,

Grandma

[Erundur]

Not according to Mormonism --- D&C 130:20–21.
I'm asking you.

Premise 1: Salvation is by God's grace through faith in the blood of Jesus.
Premise 2: Mormons have faith in the blood of Jesus.
Conclusion: Therefore, Mormons have salvation by God's grace.

Is there a flaw in that reasoning?

[disciple]

I'm asking you.

Premise 1: Salvation is by God's grace through faith in the blood of Jesus.
Premise 2: Mormons have faith in the blood of Jesus.
Conclusion: Therefore, Mormons have salvation by God's grace.

Is there a flaw in that reasoning?

Here is the flaw.
"In Mormonism, Jesus is a creation, the product of relations between god and his goddess wife who used to be people from another world (McConkie, Bruce, Mormon Doctrine, p. 192, 321, 516, 589). Jesus is the literal spirit brother of the devil and of you and I (McConkie, p. 192, 589). Also, in Mormon theology, God has a body of flesh and bones (Doctrine & Covenants 130:22) as does his wife and together they produce spirit offspring in heaven who inhabit human bodies on earth."

[Erundur]

Here is the flaw.
I meant, is there a flaw in the syllogism I proposed?

[chuckt]

I meant, is there a flaw in the syllogism I proposed?

I would say that Mormonism has a different Jesus and faith put into a false Jesus cannot save. I can buy fake electronic chips on the internet but they won't behave the same as the real chips.

Deuteronomy 13:1 ¶ If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
Deuteronomy 13:2 And the sign or the wonder come to p***, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
Deuteronomy 13:3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

God is testing you whether you love Him or not and if you want God to use you then you have to p*** His tests.

[Grandma]

I'm asking you.

Premise 1: Salvation is by God's grace through faith in the blood of Jesus.
Premise 2: Mormons have faith in the blood of Jesus.
Conclusion: Therefore, Mormons have salvation by God's grace.

Is there a flaw in that reasoning?

I see several flaws.

1. - 2. Mormons do not have faith that Christ's blood saves us to spend eternity with God; they teach that salvation along with all other blessings must be earned.

3. Mormons believe that their own works are required for salvation.

Requirements for Exaltation
. The time to fulfill the requirements for exaltation is now (see Alma 34:32-34). President Joseph Fielding Smith said, "In order to obtain the exaltation we must accept the gospel and all its covenants; and take upon us the obligations which the Lord has offered; and walk in the light and understanding of the truth; and 'live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God' " (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:43).

To be exalted, we first must place our faith in Jesus Christ and then endure in that faith to the end of our lives. Our faith in him must be such that we repent of our sins and obey his commandments.

He commands us all to receive certain ordinances:

. We must be baptized and confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ.
. We must receive the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
. We must receive the temple endowment.
. We must be married for time and eternity.

In addition to receiving the required ordinances, the Lord commands all of us to--

. Love and worship God.
. Love our neighbor.
. Repent of our wrongdoings.
. Live the law of chas***y.
. Pay honest ***hes and offerings.
. Be honest in our dealings with others and with the Lord.
. Speak the truth always.
. Obey the Word of Wisdom.
. Search out our kindred dead and perform the saving ordinances of the gospel for them.
. Keep the Sabbath day holy.
. Attend our Church meetings as regularly as possible so we can renew our baptismal covenants by partaking of the sacrament.
. Love our family members and strengthen them in the ways of the Lord.
. Have family and individual prayers every day.
. Honor our parents.
. Teach the gospel to others by word and example.
. Study the scriptures.
. Listen to and obey the inspired words of the prophets of the Lord.

Finally, each of us needs to receive the Holy Ghost and learn to follow his direction in our individual lives.

Gospel Principles, (2011), 277–79


In Christian love,

Grandma

[Erundur]

I would say that Mormonism has a different Jesus and faith put into a false Jesus cannot save.
That's possible, since we believe in Jesus Christ. So would something like this be more accurate?

Premise 1: Salvation is by God's grace through faith in the blood of some Jesus other than Jesus Christ.
Premise 2: Mormons have faith in the blood of Jesus Christ.
Conclusion: Therefore, Mormons do not have salvation by God's grace.

[Erundur]

I see several flaws.

1. - 2. Mormons do not have faith that Christ's blood saves us to spend eternity with God; they teach that salvation along with all other blessings must be earned.
This is false, since Mormons do in fact have faith the Christ's blood saves us, so 1 & 2 fail.


3. Mormons believe that their own works are required for salvation.

Requirements for Exaltation
You say we believe our works are required for salvation, but then quote requirements for exaltation, so that doesn't work.

But it sounds like you want to rewrite the syllogism to something like:

Premise 1: Salvation is by God's grace through faith in the blood of Jesus, plus not believing that any of your own works (like repentance, baptism, or obeying God's commandments) are required.
Premise 2: Mormons have faith in the blood of Jesus, but believe that their own works (like repentance, baptism, and obeying God's commandments) are required.
Conclusion: Therefore, Mormons do not have salvation by God's grace.

[Phoenix]

This is false, since Mormons do in fact have faith the Christ's blood saves us, so 1 & 2 fail.
You say we believe our works are required for salvation, but then quote requirements for exaltation, so that doesn't work.
But it sounds like you want to rewrite the syllogism to something like:
Premise 1: Salvation is by God's grace through faith in the blood of Jesus, plus not believing that any of your own works (like repentance, baptism, or obeying God's commandments) are required.
Premise 2: Mormons have faith in the blood of Jesus, but believe that their own works (like repentance, baptism, and obeying God's commandments) are required.
Conclusion: Therefore, Mormons do not have salvation by God's grace.

I see your point, and it look like a good one. it's like this:

suppose an anti-mormon believes that the recipe for apple pie is apples, flour, sugar, water, and shortening.

and a mormon adds all those ingredients together--plus cinnamon--and bakes it.

and then the anti-mormon says "that is not a true apple pie, because you added an ingredient that is not in the recipe i use."

so the mormon asks: "didn't i use all the ingredients in your recipe? so what if i believe that there should one more ingredient than you believe there should be--isn't it still an apple pie?"

[alanmolstad]

I see several flaws.

1. - 2. Mormons do not have faith that Christ's blood saves us to spend eternity with God; they teach that salvation along with all other blessings must be earned.

3. Mormons believe that their own works are required for salvation.

Requirements for Exaltation
. The time to fulfill the requirements for exaltation is now (see Alma 34:32-34). President Joseph Fielding Smith said, "In order to obtain the exaltation we must accept the gospel and all its covenants; and take upon us the obligations which the Lord has offered; and walk in the light and understanding of the truth; and 'live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God' " (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:43).

To be exalted, we first must place our faith in Jesus Christ and then endure in that faith to the end of our lives. Our faith in him must be such that we repent of our sins and obey his commandments.

He commands us all to receive certain ordinances:

. We must be baptized and confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ.
. We must receive the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
. We must receive the temple endowment.
. We must be married for time and eternity.

In addition to receiving the required ordinances, the Lord commands all of us to--

. Love and worship God.
. Love our neighbor.
. Repent of our wrongdoings.
. Live the law of chas***y.
. Pay honest ***hes and offerings.
. Be honest in our dealings with others and with the Lord.
. Speak the truth always.
. Obey the Word of Wisdom.
. Search out our kindred dead and perform the saving ordinances of the gospel for them.
. Keep the Sabbath day holy.
. Attend our Church meetings as regularly as possible so we can renew our baptismal covenants by partaking of the sacrament.
. Love our family members and strengthen them in the ways of the Lord.
. Have family and individual prayers every day.
. Honor our parents.
. Teach the gospel to others by word and example.
. Study the scriptures.
. Listen to and obey the inspired words of the prophets of the Lord.

Finally, each of us needs to receive the Holy Ghost and learn to follow his direction in our individual lives.

Gospel Principles, (2011), 277–79


In Christian love,

Grandma
You are correct.

You also seem to have a great deal more understandings of the Mormon CULT that the average person...

You have had dealings with any CULTS in the past?

[Grandma]

This is false, since Mormons do in fact have faith the Christ's blood saves us, so 1 & 2 fail.
You say we believe our works are required for salvation, but then quote requirements for exaltation, so that doesn't work.

It works because you're trying to pull the wool over my eyes, but this Grandma has been around the block a few times. LDS speak of two salvations. You call resurrection salvation when you want to mislead people. But resurrection doesn't guarantee anyone eternal life in the presence of the Mormon godhead.

And the Bible tells us of only two resurrections: one to eternal life and one to ****ation.



But it sounds like you want to rewrite the syllogism to something like:

Premise 1: Salvation is by God's grace through faith in the blood of Jesus, plus not believing that any of your own works (like repentance, baptism, or obeying God's commandments) are required.

How can something be required for salvation if you've already received it? How can you have peace with God if you haven't been saved by God's grace through faith, not of works?

Romans 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

God's word is beautiful and full of ***urances. We become His children and He protects us from the evil one.



Premise 2: Mormons have faith in the blood of Jesus, but believe that their own works (like repentance, baptism, and obeying God's commandments) are required.
Conclusion: Therefore, Mormons do not have salvation by God's grace.

Grace doesn't have to be earned as Mormons think. If you believed the Bible, you would know that keeping some of the commandments won't save, and that occult rituals and promises are going to lessen your trust in God and cause you to trust yourself and your own efforts more than you did before. But even Mormons can have their eyes opened; it's harder though when they're stuck shut.

I love Mormons and I'm so happy for those who break away and learn that Jesus does the saving just as the Apostle Paul learned!

Love in Christ,

Grandma

[Grandma]

You are correct.

You also seem to have a great deal more understandings of the Mormon CULT that the average person...

You have had dealings with any CULTS in the past?

Yep. 'Nuff said.

[Grandma]

I see your point, and it look like a good one. it's like this:

suppose an anti-mormon believes that the recipe for apple pie is apples, flour, sugar, water, and shortening.

and a mormon adds all those ingredients together--plus cinnamon--and bakes it.

and then the anti-mormon says "that is not a true apple pie, because you added an ingredient that is not in the recipe i use."

so the mormon asks: "didn't i use all the ingredients in your recipe? so what if i believe that there should one more ingredient than you believe there should be--isn't it still an apple pie?"

Making a pie is a lot different than being given an already baked pie! I like the one God made; it's so much BETTER than my own!

[chuckt]

That's possible, since we believe in Jesus Christ. So would something like this be more accurate?

Premise 1: Salvation is by God's grace through faith in the blood of some Jesus other than Jesus Christ.
Premise 2: Mormons have faith in the blood of Jesus Christ.
Conclusion: Therefore, Mormons do not have salvation by God's grace.

The Holy Spirit comes to convict the world. Why? Because they believe not on "me" (Jesus).

John 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

We have one group that doesn't believe on Jesus. The other group believes on Jesus and they have the power to become the sons of God.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

And then there is a group that says, "We preached in your name", etc. Jesus says that he never ever knew them and it is emphatic in the Greek. If you believed on his name, you have the right to become the sons of God and there is a group that preaches, does miracles, etc, in Jesus' name and God says, "Depart from me, I never ever knew you."

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So what is the original promise for eternal life? It is John 3:16, John 5:24, John 6:31-32 (approximate). Let's look at John 3:16

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The promise of eternal life is to those who believe in Jesus so we have to make sure we believe in the right Jesus to have this promise. To believe in Him gives us the right to become the sons of God and if we become the sons of God then I have to take it one step further and ***ume that we can know Him. If we believe in someone else then pick another name but don't confuse him with Jesus and his promises. If I believe in Stan or Joe then does God have to keep this promise? No.

And I'm not saying that we can lose eternal life. That isn't what I believe but I am thinking of the great apostasy in the end times.

2 Timothy 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Is it good enough to say that I believe in Jesus and that he isn't Lord of my life? 2 Timothy indicates there will be believers that have a form of godliness but deny the power. Romans 1 says the gospel is the power of God so maybe they are missing the gospel. What is the gospel? Turn to 1 Corinthians 15:1-11. One pastor believes that without preaching Jesus rose from the grave, it isn't the gospel. So how else would we deny the power? By not trusting Jesus to catch you from entering Hell. When we trust in our works, grace is no more grace and we're putting our trust in our works instead of His. Another interesting thing is that the sacrificial system was given because we couldn't keep the works of the law so if we're trusting in works, the law was nothing we could keep anyway.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Grace is an unmerited gift and when we trust in our works, grace is no more grace.

As far as the James 2:20 argument goes, I spent years I think people are teaching it wrong. I spent years trying to figure it out and I wrote twenty pages on why I think it is misunderstood and one of these days I'll try to get it into a Kindle E-Book... I spent twenty pages trying to get it into a format that people can understand and people have followed me around on the internet looking for it but when I'm ready, I'll publish it when I'm ready if I get the chance, Lord willing.

[Erundur]

It works because you're trying to pull the wool over my eyes, but this Grandma has been around the block a few times. LDS speak of two salvations. You call resurrection salvation when you want to mislead people. But resurrection doesn't guarantee anyone eternal life in the presence of the Mormon godhead.
That's false. This is what happens when you only listen to anti-Mormon propaganda.


How can something be required for salvation if you've already received it? How can you have peace with God if you haven't been saved by God's grace through faith, not of works?
So it's not required after all? Then we're back to the original syllogism:

Premise 1: Salvation is by God's grace through faith in the blood of Jesus.
Premise 2: Mormons have faith in the blood of Jesus.
Conclusion: Therefore, Mormons have salvation by God's grace.

[Erundur]

I see your point, and it look like a good one. it's like this:

suppose an anti-mormon believes that the recipe for apple pie is apples, flour, sugar, water, and shortening.

and a mormon adds all those ingredients together--plus cinnamon--and bakes it.

and then the anti-mormon says "that is not a true apple pie, because you added an ingredient that is not in the recipe i use."

so the mormon asks: "didn't i use all the ingredients in your recipe? so what if i believe that there should one more ingredient than you believe there should be--isn't it still an apple pie?"
That's a good ****ogy, and at this point the anti-Mormon needs to explain how the presence of cinnamon makes it NOT an apple pie.

[Phoenix]

the false statements will be colored red, and the straw man fallacies will be colored blue. calvinistic heresies will be bolded.


It works because you're trying to pull the wool over my eyes, but this Grandma has been around the block a few times. LDS speak of two salvations. You call resurrection salvation when you want to mislead people.

But resurrection doesn't guarantee anyone eternal life in the presence of the Mormon godhead.
And the Bible tells us of only two resurrections: one to eternal life and one to ****ation.

How can something be required for salvation if you've already received it? How can you have peace with God if you haven't been saved by God's grace through faith, not of works?
Grace doesn't have to be earned as Mormons think. If you believed the Bible, you would know that keeping some of the commandments won't save, and that occult rituals and promises are going to lessen your trust in God and cause you to trust yourself and your own efforts more than you did before. But even Mormons can have their eyes opened; it's harder though when they're stuck shut.

granny is showing her claws. maybe she isn't really grandma, but the big bad wolf in disguise.

[Phoenix]

Making a pie is a lot different than being given an already baked pie!
not if the pie someone handed you is a cow pie.


I like the one God made; it's so much BETTER than my own!
you are showing evasiveness. your original mantra was the equivalent of saying that an apple pie that has cinnamon added is suddenly no longer a pie.

if mormons confess with their lips and believe in their hearts that jesus is the christ, then they should end up being saved, even if they "mistakenly" did a whole bunch of charity work, and tried to abstain from drugs, smokes, and alcohol.

they will be saved "despite" believing in christ AND trying to obey him.

do you really think that on judgment day, christ will look at you and say "well done, good and faithful servant! you believed in me and that's all. you get eternal life!" and then he will turn to the mormon and say "you believed in me, PLUS you went and donated to charity, and obeyed a bunch of my commandments! BAD mormon! go to hell! do not p*** go! do not collect $200!" ?

[Grandma]

That's false. This is what happens when you only listen to anti-Mormon propaganda.

No, I told the TRUTH. Do you want me to prove it? Do you want me to go into detail? It seems you don't know very much about Mormonism.

In Christian love,

Grandma

[Grandma]

not if the pie someone handed you is a cow pie.

I've tasted the pie!

O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.
Psalm 34:8



you are showing evasiveness. your original mantra was the equivalent of saying that an apple pie that has cinnamon added is suddenly no longer a pie.

No, if I already know my Savior and His gospel, I don't need what you offer. Mormonism adds false ideas, requirements, and commands to the Gospel of Christ. It tells you to trust that a certain man is speaking for God. I'm following Jesus. I'm extremely happy about that and I will spend eternity with Him.



if mormons confess with their lips and believe in their hearts that jesus is the christ, then they should end up being saved, even if they "mistakenly" did a whole bunch of charity work, and tried to abstain from drugs, smokes, and alcohol.

they will be saved "despite" believing in christ AND trying to obey him.

Nice thought, but it won't work.



do you really think that on judgment day, christ will look at you and say "well done, good and faithful servant! you believed in me and that's all. you get eternal life!" and then he will turn to the mormon and say "you believed in me, PLUS you went and donated to charity, and obeyed a bunch of my commandments! BAD mormon! go to hell! do not p*** go! do not collect $200!" ?

He might say to the Mormon, "You claimed to believe in me, then you went out and spread your false teachings. You told people who loved and worshipped me that unless they were rebaptized, paid ***hes to YOUR church, didn't drink coffee or tea, accepted every calling from the bishop, they would end up in a lower kingdom and be barred from the church of the Firstborn in a celestial kingdom."

Are there any Christians outside the Mormon church?

In Christian love,

Grandma

I love Mormons!

[Erundur]

No, I told the TRUTH.
No, you falsely accused me.


Do you want me to prove it? Do you want me to go into detail?
Yes, I want you to prove your accusations.

[Erundur]

not if the pie someone handed you is a cow pie.

I've tasted the pie!
Eww. ;)

[Phoenix]

I've tasted the pie!
I am not stopping you from liking the taste of your pie. i am pointing out the flaw in your claim about recipes, and the flaw is this:

you say "to make an apple pie, mix these 5 ingredients (in reality, one ingredient--faith alone). everyone who mixes those ingredients will end up with an apple pie on Baking Day."

but when a mormon says "i mixed those ingredients. plus one more.that doesn't make my pie a NON-apple pie" then you backtrack on what you said. that is the flaw.

here is another ****ogy: you say that to make a car, you must have a body, wheels, an engine, and a transmission. you say that everyone who puts those parts together, has a car. but when a mormon ***embles the parts on your list and adds a radio, you tell the mormon "that's not a car. it's a false car, a car that cannot get you anywhere." which contradicts what you said earlier.


No, if I already know my Savior and His gospel, I don't need what you offer.
irrelevant. everything you said in that sentence could be 100% correct, but it has nothing to do with you telling the mormons that their pie isn't an apple pie, or their car isn't a car.


Mormonism adds false ideas, requirements, and commands to the Gospel of Christ.
anti-mormonism does that like crazy: in addition to "believe in Jesus Christ" you add "oh, and also the trinity--if you don't also accept THAT ingredient, you can't be saved. oh, and also you must abstain from believing in continued prophets and apostles and continued scriptures, or you can't be saved."


It tells you to trust that a certain man is speaking for God.
doesn't your "ism" tell you to trust that Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, James, and Paul were speaking for God?
if it doesn't tell you to believe that, then you are in a bad church.


I'm following Jesus. I'm extremely happy about that and I will spend eternity with Him.
again, you are avoiding the issue, which was your refusal to allow mormons to be happy about their following your recipe which they have added an important ingredient to.

if all you wanted was to be happy about your own beliefs, then you wouldn't be here attacking other people's beliefs. the fact is that you are UNhappy about other people's beliefs, even though those people are including every ingredient that is in your own recipe.

you hate the pie that the mormons baked, even though they didn't leave out any of the ingredients that you put into your own pie that makes you so "happy."


Are there any Christians outside the Mormon church?
of course. there are probably a billion of them.

[Grandma]

That's false. This is what happens when you only listen to anti-Mormon propaganda.

I'm not listening to anti-Mormon propaganda. I do almost all my research at lds.org. Is that a reliable site?

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[Grandma]

I see several flaws.

1. - 2. Mormons do not have faith that Christ's blood saves us to spend eternity with God; they teach that salvation along with all other blessings must be earned.

3. Mormons believe that their own works are required for salvation.

This is false, since Mormons do in fact have faith the Christ's blood saves us, so 1 & 2 fail.


You say we believe our works are required for salvation, but then quote requirements for exaltation, so that doesn't work.

But it sounds like you want to rewrite the syllogism to something like:

Premise 1: Salvation is by God's grace through faith in the blood of Jesus, plus not believing that any of your own works (like repentance, baptism, or obeying God's commandments) are required.
Premise 2: Mormons have faith in the blood of Jesus, but believe that their own works (like repentance, baptism, and obeying God's commandments) are required.
Conclusion: Therefore, Mormons do not have salvation by God's grace.

In Mormonism all people will be resurrected. In the Bible, resurrection and eternal life are not synonymous. Eternal life is salvation.

How can a person be saved according to LDS teachings?

Answer: 1. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

In Christian love,

Grandma

[theway]

What is your point? Christians have love. And I'm very familiar with 1 Corinthians Chapter 13,


In Christian Love,

GrandmaNow wait a minute...
Didn't you just say this...


Mormons ignore the Gospel and add oodles of requirements for salvation that were dreamed up by Joseph Smith; those requirements contradict the Bible.
In Christian love,
Grandma
And then you went on to list a few of those "unbiblical requirements" which Mormons "add on"



Requirements for Exaltation ...

. Love and worship God.
. Love our neighbor.

So please explain how Love in your theology has anything to do with being a Christian, seeing as though you believe love to be a man made requirement which contradicts the Bible?

In Christian LOVE,

The Way

[Erundur]

I'm not listening to anti-Mormon propaganda. I do almost all my research at lds.org.
Is that where you got your claim that "You call resurrection salvation when you want to mislead people."?

[Erundur]

In Mormonism all people will be resurrected.
Right, just as the Bible teaches. Who will not be resurrected in Protestantism?


In the Bible, resurrection and eternal life are not synonymous.
Did someone suggest that they were?

[Grandma]

Now wait a minute...
Didn't you just say this...


And then you went on to list a few of those "unbiblical requirements" which Mormons "add on"



So please explain how Love in your theology has anything to do with being a Christian, seeing as though you believe love to be a man made requirement which contradicts the Bible?

In Christian LOVE,

The Way

Mormons believe parts of the Bible, do they not? Do they believe there are requirements for eternal life that are not in the Bible?

In Christian LOVE,

Grandma

[Grandma]

Right, just as the Bible teaches. Who will not be resurrected in Protestantism?


Did someone suggest that they were?

In biblical teachings, the wicked will be resurrected to ****ation and the righteous to eternal life.

The point is that resurrection is NOT salvation.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[Grandma]

Is that where you got your claim that "You call resurrection salvation when you want to mislead people."?

No, Sir, that came from experience.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[alanmolstad]

In biblical teachings, the wicked will be resurrected to ****ation and the righteous to eternal life.

The point is that resurrection is NOT salvation.

In Christian Love,

Grandma
Very good answer!

[theway]

Mormons believe parts of the Bible, do they not? Do they believe there are requirements for eternal life that are not in the Bible?

In Christian LOVE,

GrandmaThat has nothing to do with my comment...

Is being found with Love a requirement of salvation or not, according to yoir beliefs?

[Grandma]

That has nothing to do with my comment...

Is being found with Love a requirement of salvation or not, according to yoir beliefs?

It's a result of salvation (the new birth). Are you familiar with ***us Chapter 3?

3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are p***ed away; behold, all things are become new.

Galatians 6:15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

1 John 2:9
He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

1 John 4:20
If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[theway]

It's a result of salvation (the new birth). Are you familiar with ***us Chapter 3?

3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are p***ed away; behold, all things are become new.

Galatians 6:15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

1 John 2:9
He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

1 John 4:20
If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

In Chtistian Love,

GrandmaThat does not answer my question!

Whether or not love happens before or after you have declared a person saved, is not germane to your answering me.

I asked: Is having love in your heart a requirement of salvation or not?

Simply spouting pla***udes, and posting scriptures without posting your interpretation of them is meaningless and a waste of time for everyone. It only serves you in allowing you to avoid the contradictions and paradoxes of your heresies. I have asked you more than once to explain how the scriptures you posted support your case, you have refused. Therefore I am left to ***ume that you do not even understand their meaning and their message. You simply randomly post scripture that in some cases actually argue against you.

[Grandma]

That does not answer my question!

Whether or not love happens before or after you have declared a person saved, is not germane to your answering me.

I asked: Is having love in your heart a requirement of salvation or not?

Simply spouting pla***udes, and posting scriptures without posting your interpretation of them is meaningless and a waste of time for everyone. It only serves you in allowing you to avoid the contradictions and paradoxes of your heresies. I have asked you more than once to explain how the scriptures you posted support your case, you have refused. Therefore I am left to ***ume that you do not even understand their meaning and their message. You simply randomly post scripture that in some cases actually argue against you.

Be nice. I didn't simply spout pla***udes.

Love is a result of salvation (the new birth). Are you familiar with ***us Chapter 3?

3 At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of p***ions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another.

(***us 3:3 NIV describes the old creature.)

2 Corinthians 5:17 NIV
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!
(God makes us new creatures.)

Galatians 6:15 NIV
Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation.
(God makes us new creatures,)

1 John 2:9 NIV
Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister is still in the darkness (still not a Christian).

1 John 4:20 NIV
Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen.

Does that help?

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[alanmolstad]

One of the better posts we have seen left on this forum in a very long time.

Im happy to be able to reprint it here for all to enjoy!



Be nice. I didn't simply spout pla***udes.

Love is a result of salvation (the new birth). Are you familiar with ***us Chapter 3?

3 At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of p***ions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another.

(***us 3:3 NIV describes the old creature.)

2 Corinthians 5:17 NIV
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!
(God makes us new creatures.)

Galatians 6:15 NIV
Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation.
(God makes us new creatures,)

1 John 2:9 NIV
Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister is still in the darkness (still not a Christian).

1 John 4:20 NIV
Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen.

Does that help?

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[theway]

Be nice. I didn't simply spout pla***udes.

Love is a result of salvation (the new birth). Are you familiar with ***us Chapter 3?

3 At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of p***ions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another.

(***us 3:3 NIV describes the old creature.)

2 Corinthians 5:17 NIV
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!
(God makes us new creatures.)

Galatians 6:15 NIV
Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation.
(God makes us new creatures,)

1 John 2:9 NIV
Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister is still in the darkness (still not a Christian).

1 John 4:20 NIV
Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen.

Does that help?

In Christian Love,

GrandmaAgain, you did not answer my question! You simply went back to trying to avoid answering my question by starting a "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?" Logical Fallacy.

Let's try this again...

In your belief... Is having love in your heart (either before or after you are saved)a requirement of salvation or not?
It is a simple yes or no question.

[disciple]

Again, you did not answer my question! You simply went back to trying to avoid answering my question by starting a "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?" Logical Fallacy.

Let's try this again...

In your belief... Is having love in your heart (either before or after you are saved)a requirement of salvation or not?
It is a simple yes or no question.

Love is not a requirement for salvation it is the result of salvation. Read Ephesians 2:1-5 and realize what we are before we are saved.

"And you He made alive, who were dead in tresp***es and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in tresp***es, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)"

[theway]

Love is not a requirement for salvation it is the result of salvation. Read Ephesians 2:1-5 and realize what we are before we are savedIf love has nothing to do with our salvation, then bringing it up during a debate about the requirements for salvation is an obvious diversionary ploy.

Thanks for admitting to that on Grandma's behalf.

But it then begs the question!
If love is not a requirement of salvation, and since loving God and loving our fellow men are the greatest commandments of God.... Then it stands to reason that you believe one does not have to obey ANY commandments of God to be saved.
And given that sin is disobeying God's commandments, then you must also believe that one can sin all they want and still be saved???

Would this not be an accurate ***esment of your beliefs?

[disciple]

If love has nothing to do with our salvation, then bringing it up during a debate about the requirements for salvation is an obvious diversionary ploy.

Thanks for admitting to that on Grandma's behalf.

But it then begs the question!
If love is not a requirement of salvation, and since loving God and loving our fellow men are the greatest commandments of God.... Then it stands to reason that you believe one does not have to obey ANY commandments of God to be saved.
And given that sin is disobeying God's commandments, then you must also believe that one can sin all they want and still be saved???

Would this not be an accurate ***esment of your beliefs?

You are very confused, the commandments were not given to keep us from sinning but to show us we were sinning. The Apostle Paul said this,"Indeed I would not have known what it was to covet if the law had not said, "Do not covet." The desire and ability to obey come as a result of salvation. Didn't you read the scripture I posted, "dead in tresp***es and sins", dead men can't obey but when men are made alive in Christ they will.
Also I am not answering for Grandma, she is doing very well without any help.

[theway]

You are very confused, the commandments were not given to keep us from sinning but to show us we were sinning. The Apostle Paul said this,"Indeed I would not have known what it was to covet if the law had not said, "Do not covet." The desire and ability to obey come as a result of salvation. Didn't you read the scripture I posted, "dead in tresp***es and sins", dead men can't obey but when men are made alive in Christ they will.
Also I am not answering for Grandma, she is doing very well without any help.
Your above reply is just a lot of "word soup" to divert people's attention away from the fact that you actually agree with me.
If I am confused, then please show which one of my conclusions were wrong?

1. You said you believe that love is not a requirement of salvation.
2. You believe keeping the commandments of God is not a requirement of salvation either.
3. Likewise, you believe a person can sin all they want as the amount and degree of one's sins (either before or after you you are saved) has no bearing on one's salvation.


Ironically, you are hoping people will be confused so that they don't realize the silliness of Faith Alone theology.

[Grandma]

Again, you did not answer my question! You simply went back to trying to avoid answering my question by starting a "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?" Logical Fallacy.

Let's try this again...

In your belief... Is having love in your heart (either before or after you are saved)a requirement of salvation or not?
It is a simple yes or no question.

You sure are having a lot of trouble understanding some very simple answers to your question. I'm so sorry if you sincerely don't understand my posts and/or the Bible verses I posted in KJV and NIV.

It looks like other people understand my answers completely.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[Grandma]

Your above reply is just a lot of "word soup" to divert people's attention away from the fact that you actually agree with me.
If I am confused, then please show which one of my conclusions were wrong?

1. You said you believe that love is not a requirement of salvation.
2. You believe keeping the commandments of God is not a requirement of salvation either.
3. Likewise, you believe a person can sin all they want as the amount and degree of one's sins (either before or after you you are saved) has no bearing on one's salvation.


Ironically, you are hoping people will be confused so that they don't realize it.

Christians are not walking in the darkness that unbelievers are. We HATE sin! We want to obey the commandments. I'm sure you've seen that all over the internet and apparently came here to twist every answer that Christians give you. I speak to you in love. Can you respond in love?

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[theway]

You sure are having a lot of trouble understanding some very simple answers to your question. I'm so sorry if you sincerely don't understand my posts and/or the Bible verses I posted in KJV and NIV.

It looks like other people understand my answers completely.

In Christian Love,

GrandmaI have absolutely no problem understanding a Yes or No answer. I believe this is why you have refused to give one.
Likewise, whenever I ask you to clarify your ***ertions and the meaning of the scriptures YOU YOUSELF POSTED. You have flat out refused to do so.
Do you see the pattern everyone else does? You can not answer simply questions or explain yourself without contradicting yourself, or creating impossible paradoxes.

[Grandma]

You are very confused, the commandments were not given to keep us from sinning but to show us we were sinning. The Apostle Paul said this,"Indeed I would not have known what it was to covet if the law had not said, "Do not covet." The desire and ability to obey come as a result of salvation. Didn't you read the scripture I posted, "dead in tresp***es and sins", dead men can't obey but when men are made alive in Christ they will.


Amen! Beautiful and truthful!

[Grandma]

I have absolutely no problem understanding a Yes or No answer. I believe this is why you have refused to give one.
Likewise, whenever I ask you to clarify your ***ertions and the meaning of the scriptures YOU YOUSELF POSTED. You have flat out refused to do so.
Do you see the pattern everyone else does? You can not answer simply questions or explain yourself without contradicting yourself, or creating impossible paradoxes.

No, I answered you so plainly that others can see my answer.

The requirement for salvation is faith/the new birth. It is a gift of God Who gives us saving faith that produces the works He ordained. "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

I'm sorry that you're objecting to biblical answers.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[theway]

Christians are not walking in the darkness that unbelievers are. We HATE sin! We want to obey the commandments. I'm sure you've seen that all over the internet and apparently came here to twist every answer that Christians give you. I speak to you in love. Can you respond in love?

In Christian Love,

Grandma
Whether Christians walk in darkness or not, is not germane to the answer to my question.
The fact that you hate sin is just a meaningless pla***ude and does not answer my question.
The fact that you WANT to obey God's commandments has nothing to do with whether it is a requirement of salvation, and is yet another useless pla***ude.
What I personally have seen all over the Internet is anecdotal and has nothing to do with anything.
Whether I respond in love or not, will not change whether something is true or not.

The answer I am looking for you to tell me, is which one of my conclusions was wrong.

If you don't like that question, then feel free to actually answer any of the others I have asked of you.

[theway]

No, I answered you so plainly that others can see my answer.

The requirement for salvation is faith/the new birth. It is a gift of God Who gives us saving faith that produces the works He ordained. "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

I'm sorry that you're objecting to biblical answers.

In Christian Love,

GrandmaFaith was not one of your original requirements for salvation.
I'm glad you finally listened to me and added it.
The only problem is that you are now contradicting yourself yet again.
You said that salvation comes at the same time that God "choose us", which means that faith would have had to of happened at the same time as well, otherwise a person would be saved without Faith.
Now that leaves only three options for you.
God gave us our faith, choose, and saved us before we were born?
God choose us, gave us faith, and saved us while we were alive based on no criteria whatsoever?
Or God forced us against our will and saved us WITHOUT ANY FAITH ON OUR PART,

So which one statement is correct under your beliefs?

[chuckt]

Faith was not one of your original requirements for salvation.
I'm glad you finally listened to me and added it.
The only problem is that you are now contradicting yourself yet again.
You said that salvation comes at the same time that God "choose us", which means that faith would have had to of happened at the same time as well, otherwise a person would be saved without Faith.
Now that leaves only three options for you.
God gave us our faith, choose, and saved us before we were born?
God choose us, gave us faith, and saved us while we were alive based on no criteria whatsoever?
Or God forced us against our will and saved us WITHOUT ANY FAITH ON OUR PART,

So which one statement is correct under your beliefs?

I'm not a Calvinist so my take on it is that God knows who would be saved because He knows the end from the beginning but that people still have to choose.
God gives everyone a measure of faith but that faith has to be placed in the true Lord Jesus.
Everyone's name is written in the lamb's book of life and then there are reasons that we can get blotted out. We get blotted out for rejecting the real Jesus Christ. There is no neutrality with God so to be neutral is to reject Jesus.
Did you ever watch "To Tell the Truth"? Will the real Jesus please stand up.

I don't believe Calvinism and if you were to survey people today, some people are a three point Calvinist and others are a four point Calvinist because they don't believe everything sold to them in Calvinism and our Bible college up here doesn't believe in Calvinism. I was reading a book that plainly states that both Roman Catholicism and Calvinism came out of Gnosticism.

[theway]

I'm not a Calvinist so my take on it is that God knows who would be saved because He knows the end from the beginning but that people still have to choose.
God gives everyone a measure of faith but that faith has to be placed in the true Lord Jesus.
Everyone's name is written in the lamb's book of life and then there are reasons that we can get blotted out. We get blotted out for rejecting the real Jesus Christ. There is no neutrality with God so to be neutral is to reject Jesus.
Did you ever watch "To Tell the Truth"? Will the real Jesus please stand up.

I don't believe Calvinism and if you were to survey people today, some people are a three point Calvinist and others are a four point Calvinist because they don't believe everything sold to them in Calvinism and our Bible college up here doesn't believe in Calvinism. I was reading a book that plainly states that both Roman Catholicism and Calvinism came out of Gnosticism.That's just it... This "Faith Alone" or "Grace Alone" nonsense (aka, Cheap Grace) is only believed by about 9%-12% of people who call themselves Christian. That's why I don't know why almost all AntiMormons try to sell this heresy to Mormons when they can't even get their own to buy into it.
They must think Mormons are more gullible:)
LOL... Ironically, I get my best arguements against it from Calvanism debate forums where Faith Aloners debate other Faith Aloners as to what part of TULIP they don't believe in.

[chuckt]

That's just it... This "Faith Alone" or "Grace Alone" nonsense (aka, Cheap Grace) is only believed by about 9%-12% of people who call themselves Christian. That's why I don't know why almost all AntiMormons try to sell this heresy to Mormons when they can't even get their own to buy into it.
They must think Mormons are more gullible:)
LOL... Ironically, I get my best arguements against it from Calvanism debate forums where Faith Aloners debate other Faith Aloners as to what part of TULIP they don't believe in.

You can't work for salvation because the wages of sin is death. We are all going to die some day and death is one per person so if you could work your way to pay for it then why can't you prevent your own death by working for life here on earth?

Second, you would have to show me where a works based system is fair to people in wheel chairs, widows, handicapped, mentally challenged, etc.

Third, what could you exactly offer the owner of the earth something that He doesn't already own?

Fourth, there is going to be a new earth so God isn't exactly holding onto keeping the old earth. So what could you possibly offer Him from here that He can't already make?

Fifth, works based systems are arbitrary and the rules are set by humans and not God. The law was a mirror to show you that you are not righteous and people are trying to use works to prove that they are clean or that they can get clean.

I wrote a book destroying the James 2:17 "works without faith is dead" argument and I want to get it into an E-book format on the Kindle but getting it from m****cript form to the Kindle is something I haven't done before.

There is no such thing as cheap grace. I'm ***uming you're talking about Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Grace cost God something unimaginable; His son. Since the sin was against God, only God can pay for your sins and your transgressions because your finite works cannot pay the worth of God. Sin is eternal so you would have to pay in hell eternally to pay for your sin or you would have to find someone eternal to pay the price for you.

Your arguments go against the revelation of the Bible where God stated His will. God came down from heaven to us to display Himself and to make a way. No man has gone up to heaven to make things right with God.

Therefore you need the Lord Christ Jesus for salvation. The definition is grace through faith through Christ alone and you have to understand blood atonement to understand Christianity.

[chuckt]

Faith was not one of your original requirements for salvation.
I'm glad you finally listened to me and added it.
The only problem is that you are now contradicting yourself yet again.
You said that salvation comes at the same time that God "choose us", which means that faith would have had to of happened at the same time as well, otherwise a person would be saved without Faith.
Now that leaves only three options for you.
God gave us our faith, choose, and saved us before we were born?
God choose us, gave us faith, and saved us while we were alive based on no criteria whatsoever?
Or God forced us against our will and saved us WITHOUT ANY FAITH ON OUR PART,

So which one statement is correct under your beliefs?

English Standard Version
Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

http://biblehub.com/hebrews/9-22.htm

Because shedding of Jesus' blood is necessary, there is no forgiveness of sins if you don't want to believe in the correct Jesus.

[Grandma]

That's just it... This "Faith Alone" or "Grace Alone" nonsense (aka, Cheap Grace) is only believed by about 9%-12% of people who call themselves Christian. That's why I don't know why almost all AntiMormons try to sell this heresy to Mormons when they can't even get their own to buy into it.
They must think Mormons are more gullible:)
LOL... Ironically, I get my best arguements against it from Calvanism debate forums where Faith Aloners debate other Faith Aloners as to what part of TULIP they don't believe in.

There is no cheap grace. Jesus paid DEARLY.

[Grandma]

Faith was not one of your original requirements for salvation.
I'm glad you finally listened to me and added it.


Salvation is by God's grace through faith in the blood of Jesus. The Gospel is the Good News that Jesus paid for the sins of all believers.



The only problem is that you are now contradicting yourself yet again.
You said that salvation comes at the same time that God "choose us", which means that faith would have had to of happened at the same time as well, otherwise a person would be saved without Faith.
Now that leaves only three options for you.
God gave us our faith, choose, and saved us before we were born?
God choose us, gave us faith, and saved us while we were alive based on no criteria whatsoever?
Or God forced us against our will and saved us WITHOUT ANY FAITH ON OUR PART,

So which one statement is correct under your beliefs?

Your short term memory seems to be failing.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[Phoenix]

There is no cheap grace. Jesus paid DEARLY.

the term "cheap grace" isn't referring to how cheap it was for JESUS. Why do so many anti-mormon calvinists regurgitate that exact mantra?

[Phoenix]

I'm not a Calvinist so my take on it is that God knows who would be saved because He knows the end from the beginning but that people still have to choose.
God gives everyone a measure of faith but that faith has to be placed in the true Lord Jesus.
Everyone's name is written in the lamb's book of life and then there are reasons that we can get blotted out. We get blotted out for rejecting the real Jesus Christ. There is no neutrality with God so to be neutral is to reject Jesus.
Did you ever watch "To Tell the Truth"? Will the real Jesus please stand up.

I don't believe Calvinism and if you were to survey people today, some people are a three point Calvinist and others are a four point Calvinist because they don't believe everything sold to them in Calvinism and our Bible college up here doesn't believe in Calvinism. I was reading a book that plainly states that both Roman Catholicism and Calvinism came out of Gnosticism.

I liked this post. Well done, overall.