Are there any Christians outside the Mormon church?

[Grandma]

Are there any Christians outside the Mormon church? I'm wondering what Mormons believe about that.

[Erundur]

Of course.

[Grandma]

Of course.


Do Christians spend eternity with God?

[Erundur]

Do Christians spend eternity with God?
Many of them do.

[Grandma]

Many of them do.


Many of them do.

How can you say "many" instead of all?
John 6
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Of course, Joseph Smith disagreed with you.

"Will everybody be ****ed, but Mormons?"
Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness,"
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, page 119

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[Erundur]

How can you say "many" instead of all?
Because many will, but not all. Where do you get the idea that all Christians will spend eternity with God?


Of course, Joseph Smith disagreed with you.

"Will everybody be ****ed, but Mormons?"
Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness,"
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, page 119
I see you aren't familiar with the concept of sarcasm. :)

[Grandma]

Because many will, but not all. Where do you get the idea that all Christians will spend eternity with God?

Because God gave them the new birth; otherwise they aren't Christians. Where do you get the idea that Jesus was lying?

John 6:39
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.




I see you aren't familiar with the concept of sarcasm. :)

I wouldn't say that. How can you determine he was being sarcastic?

Suppose only the elect will have eternal life and spend eternity with God.

“An elect lady is a female member of the [Mormon]Church who has already received, or who through obedience is qualified to receive, the fulness of gospel blessings. This includes temple endowments, celestial marriage, and the fulness of the sealing power. She is one who has been elected or chosen by faithfulness as a daughter of God in this life, an heir of God, a member of his household. Her position is comparable to that of the elders who magnify their callings in the priesthood and thereby receive all that the Father hath.”
The Life and Teachings of Jesus and His Apostles, (1979), Chapter 53

That sounds rather exclusive to me. It makes Joseph Smith's answer sound serious rather than sarcastic.

"Will everybody be ****ed, but Mormons?"
Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness,"
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, page 119

Do you still think his answer was not based on Mormon teachings?

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[Erundur]

Because God gave them the new birth; otherwise they aren't Christians.
That's not what Christian means.


Where do you get the idea that Jesus was lying?
Your question ***umes a false premise.


I wouldn't say that. How can you determine he was being sarcastic?
If you actually know what LDS believe, then when you read Joseph's FAQ, you can tell that some of his answers aren't entirely serious.

[Grandma]

That's not what Christian means.

A Christian is a follower of Christ. The new birth creates a follower of Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are p***ed away; behold, all things are become new.

Galatians 6:15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.



Your question ***umes a false premise.

I don't see that.



If you actually know what LDS believe, then when you read Joseph's FAQ, you can tell that some of his answers aren't entirely serious.

That one had to be serious. I showed you that it lines up with Mormon teachings.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[Phoenix]

If you actually know what LDS believe, then when you read Joseph's FAQ, you can tell that some of his answers aren't entirely serious.

yes, plus: I think many people misunderstand what he was saying. he was saying that not only will all non-mormons fail to make it to the highest part of god's kingdom, but most mormons will fail to make it as well, unless they get their act together.

"Will everybody be ****ed, but Mormons?"
Yes, and a great portion of them (the mormons, too), unless they repent, and work righteousness"

sometimes, when i see how poorly some anti-mormons understand what mormon leaders said, i can understand why they also misunderstand the bible so much. the mormon leaders spoke the same language as the antis, lived in the same country as the antis, and lived less than 200 years before the antis did. the bible people, on the other hand, spoke a foreign language, lived in a foreign land with foreign culture and customs, and lived up to 4000 years before the antis.

so if you can't correctly understand what joseph smith said, there isn't much hope that you will correctly understand what jesus said.

[Erundur]

A Christian is a follower of Christ.
Close.


Christian
noun Chris·tian \ˈkris-chən, ˈkrish-\

: a person who believes in the teachings of Jesus Christ

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/christian


That one had to be serious. I showed you that it lines up with Mormon teachings.
No, you didn't. Just throwing out some random quote doesn't accomplish anything.

[Grandma]

Close.

You ought to have said, "Correct." Evidently when Mormons call us Christians, they really mean that we are lesser Christians. That isn't biblical. Christians aren't supposed to esteem their brothers and sisters as not worthy of spending eternity with God. Eternity with God is for all Christians.

Romans 8
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.





No, you didn't. Just throwing out some random quote doesn't accomplish anything.

It wasn't just a random quote. It's what Mormons are taught.

The elect of God are those men and women who have demonstrated such great faithfulness to the teachings of Jesus Christ that they will be elevated to godhood in the afterlife. The elect are not predetermined or predestined to eternal life.[2] They use their agency—the ability to independently choose between good and evil for themselves—to obey the commandments of God willingly. They are spiritually receptive to the teachings of the Spirit. The elect “see and know the truth”[3] and “hear the word of God”[4] when the Lord’s messengers speak. While Satan manages to deceive many, “the elect will not be deceived”[5] and will accept the true restored gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. President Brigham Young said: “All who believe, have honest hearts, and bring forth fruits of righteousness, are the elect of God and heirs to all things.”[6]

Since the prerequisites of this blessing include “obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel,”[7] only a “very select group, an inner circle of faithful members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”[8] will qualify for it. To become elect, a person must partake of “the new and everlasting covenant of marriage’ (D. & C. 131:1-4), and overcome by faith until, as the sons of God, they merit membership in the Church of the Firstborn.”[9]
W. John Walsh
lightplanet.com

So you say there are Christians outside your church who don't deserve the blessing of eternal life yet some Mormons do. :(

That's sad.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[theway]

You ought to have said, "Correct." Evidently when Mormons call us Christians, they really mean that we are leser Christians. That isn't biblical. Christians aren't supposed to esteem their brothers and sisters as not worthy of spending eternity with God. Eternity with God is for all Christians.

Romans 8
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


It wasn't just a random quote. It's what Mormons are taught.

The elect of God are those men and women who have demonstrated such great faithfulness to the teachings of Jesus Christ that they will be elevated to godhood in the afterlife. The elect are not predetermined or predestined to eternal life.[2] They use their agency—the ability to independently choose between good and evil for themselves—to obey the commandments of God willingly. They are spiritually receptive to the teachings of the Spirit. The elect “see and know the truth”[3] and “hear the word of God”[4] when the Lord’s messengers speak. While Satan manages to deceive many, “the elect will not be deceived”[5] and will accept the true restored gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. President Brigham Young said: “All who believe, have honest hearts, and bring forth fruits of righteousness, are the elect of God and heirs to all things.”[6]

Since the prerequisites of this blessing include “obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel,”[7] only a “very select group, an inner circle of faithful members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”[8] will qualify for it. To become elect, a person must partake of “the new and everlasting covenant of marriage’ (D. & C. 131:1-4), and overcome by faith until, as the sons of God, they merit membership in the Church of the Firstborn.”[9]
W. John Walsh
lightplanet.com

So you say there are Christians outside your church who don't deserve the blessing of eternal life yet some Mormons do. :(

That's sad.

In Christian Love,

GrandmaIts not a matter of "deserving Eternal Life" because in a sense no one deserves to be saved.... It's more about preparing yourself for Eternal Life, which is obtainable to ALL.
And yes, few there will be that will seek after Eternal Life, and according to the Bible, 50% of those who do seek after God will not be prepared for Him and will hence not obtain Eternal Life.
The very fact that people recognize that there's a highway to Hell and yet only a staircase to Heaven, tells you that even the world acknowledges the fact that few will make it.

[Grandma]

Its not a matter of "deserving Eternal Life" because in a sense no one deserves to be saved.... It's more about preparing yourself for Eternal Life, which is obtainable to ALL.
And yes, few there will be that will seek after Eternal Life, and occurring to the Bible, 50% of those who do seek after God will not be prepared for Him and will hence not obtain Eternal.
The very fact that people recognize that there's a highway to Hell and yet only a staircase to Heaven, tells you that even the world acknowledges the fact that few will make it.

Your D&C says that some people are more worthy than others. That's not true. Eternal life is for all Christians.

***us 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[theway]

Your D&C says that some people are more worthy than others. That's not true. Eternal life is for all Christians.

***us 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

In Christian Love,

GrandmaPlease explain to us the meaning of the parable of the ten virgins?

Thanks in advance...

[Erundur]

You ought to have said, "Correct."
Only if I wanted to be inaccurate.


Evidently when Mormons call us Christians, they really mean that we are lesser Christians.
CFR


Christians aren't supposed to esteem their brothers and sisters as not worthy of spending eternity with God.
So do Protestants esteem Mormons as worthy of spending eternity with God?


It wasn't just a random quote.
Yeah, it was. It really had nothing to do with the topic.


So you say there are Christians outside your church who don't deserve the blessing of eternal life yet some Mormons do.
Obviously. Being a Christian is not an unconditional guarantee of eternal life.

[Grandma]

Evidently when Mormons call us Christians, they really mean that we are lesser Christians.

CFR

D&C 132:
15 Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.

16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.



So do Protestants esteem Mormons as worthy of spending eternity with God?

We don't pretend that you're Christians. Mormons claim to be honest and claim that Christians aren't worthy enough to spend eternity with God unless they become Mormons.

Have a nice afternoon. I won't be here.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[Erundur]

D&C 132:
15 Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.

16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
This does not say that anyone is a lesser Christian. Try again?


We don't pretend that you're Christians.
Neither do we.


Mormons claim to be honest and claim that Christians aren't worthy enough to spend eternity with God unless they become Mormons.
CFR

[Grandma]

This does not say that anyone is a lesser Christian. Try again?

Some might say, "Well, I'd be satisfied to just become an angel," but you would not. One never would be satisfied just to be a ministering angel to wait upon other people when he could be the king himself. ("The Importance of Celestial Marriage," Ensign, Oct. 1979, pp. 5-6)

To enter the celestial and obtain exaltation it is necessary that the whole law be kept. The word of the Lord is that they of the celestial world are those sanctified from all unrighteousness.(D.C. 88:21, cf. verse 18.) To become sanctified there are certain definite covenants we must keep in faithfulness, living by "every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God." "They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, * * * That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto the power." These are they "who overcome by faith and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true." (D.C. 76:51-53. See also verses 54-60.) And they who are not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise and who are not just and true, need not expect their great blessings.
Joseph Fielding Smith, The Way to Perfection, p.206

Doctrine and Covenants 1
31 For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;
32 Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven;


Temple Ordinances Necessary to Enter Church of Firstborn
The sacred ordinances performed in the temple are essential in becoming a member of the Church of the Firstborn. This was made clear by Joseph Smith. On May 4, 1842, the day the Prophet introduced the temple ordinances of the washing and anointing and the endowment in this dispensation, he wrote:
I spent the day in the upper part of the store . . . in council with General James Adams, of Springfield, Patriarch Hyrum Smith, Bishops Newel K. Whitney and George Miller, and President Brigham Young and Elders Heber C. Kimball and Willard Richards, instructing them in the principles and order of the Priesthood, attending to washings, anointings, endowments and the communication of keys pertaining to the Aaronic Priesthood, and so on to the highest order of the Melchizedek Priesthood, setting forth the order pertaining to the Ancient of Days, and all those plans and principles by which any one is enabled to secure the fullness of those blessing which have been prepared for the Church of the Firstborn, and come up and abide in the presence of the Eloheim in the eternal worlds.
History of the Church 5:1-2; Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.237


Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual quotes Joseph Fielding Smith on page 323:

D&C 130:10 . What Is the Destiny of All Celestial Beings?
Angels are in a state wherein they possess “all things for their glory” ( D&C 130:7 ). The same is true of God and all exalted beings. Those who obtain celestial glory obtain knowledge of all inferior kingdoms, or “kingdoms of a lower order” than the one on which they live ( D&C 130:9 ). They also receive, as verse 10 makes clear, a personal Urim and Thummim in the form of a “white stone.” This stone becomes the means “whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms” are placed in their possession ( v. 10 ). Individuals are initially prepared for these great blessings by keeping God’s commandments and receiving an endowment in the house of God, as President Joseph Fielding Smith explained:

“The ordinances of the temple, the endowment and sealings, pertain to exaltation in the celestial kingdom, where the sons and daughters are. The sons and daughters are not outside in some other kingdom. The sons and daughters go into the house, belong to the household, have access to the home. ‘In my Father’s house are many mansions’ [ John 14:2 ]. Sons and daughters have access to the home where he dwells, and you cannot receive that access until you go to the temple. Why? Because you must receive certain key words as well as make covenants by which you are able to enter. If you try to get into the house, and the door is locked, how are you going to enter, if you haven’t your key? You get your key in the temple, which will admit you.

“. . . You cannot find a key on the street, for that key is never lost that will open the door that enters into our Father’s mansions. You have got to go where the key is given. And each can obtain the key, if you will; but after receiving it, you may lose it, by having it taken away from you again unless you abide by the agreement which you entered into when you went into the house of the Lord.” ( Doctrines of Salvation, 2:40–41.)

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[Erundur]

I'm not going to read through all that. Is there anything in there that says anyone is a lesser Christian?

[Grandma]

I'm not going to read through all that. Is there anything in there that says anyone is a lesser Christian?

You don't have to read it. Other people will. I'm not arguing --- just providing the information you requested.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[Erundur]

You don't have to read it. Other people will. I'm not arguing --- just providing the information you requested.
I'll have to take that as a no, then.

[Grandma]

I'll have to take that as a no, then.

For some reason you don't like me and want to accuse me. If that makes you happy, go ahead and do as you please. I'm sorry if I've offended you; I try very hard to be polite.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[theway]

You don't have to read it. Other people will. I'm not arguing --- just providing the information you requested.

In Christian Love,

GrandmaLOL.... What other people???

I agree with Erundur, I never read your posts if they are more than one short paragraph long even if they include scripture.
I just ***ume you are spouting the same AntiMormon talking points I've heard and debunked a hundred times before.
We know your questions are not "questions" but attempts to trap us. That will never work however, because we know the answers to your questions, we know all the traps, we know the quotes you will use before you do, we know the AntiMormon sites you get your information from, we know the answers to any comeback, scriptures or quotes you will post, we also know how you will misinterpret those scriptures, WE ARE ALWAYS THREE OR FOUR STEPS AHEAD OF YOU!
So if we ask a question it is not because we think there is anything you can teach us, it is so that by you answering, You and any Lurkers who might happen by can see why your argument is flawed. This is why we know you know better than to answer any of our questions with anything more than pla***udes and scriptures which have nothing to do with the topic at hand... It is because if you answer you will have it on record as contradicting yourself, and be faced with the truth that contradicts your own beliefs.

So I'll ask the same question I ask most AntiMormons here... Just who are you trying to convince anyway?

It certainly can not be us because we know better, or the one or two Lurkers who are laughing at your silly attempts to discredit the LDS... It must be that you are trying to convince yourself.

[Grandma]

Being a Christian doesn't mean you're guaranteed to enter the kingdom of God. Judas Iscariot was a Christian, he believed Jesus is the Messiah, and followed his teachings, and faces judgment for betraying the Christ. As it was said, not all Christians get into Heaven. Eternal life isn't for all Christians, just for those who God grants it to. There are Christians who believe they're going to Heaven just because they've professed Jesus to be the Savior yet say because they're saved they get in regardless of what they do. The unrepentant disobedient will have a hard time getting into the kingdom of God.

If you'll allow me, I would point out that Judas Iscariot was NOT a Christian. He was a devil just like Jesus said.

Saying, "I am a Christian," doesn't make anyone a Christian. A Christian is someone who has received the new birth by God's mercy and grace. You can usually tell them by their fruits; God knows who they are and they know Him.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[Grandma]

LOL.... What other people???

I agree with Erundur, I never read your posts if they are more than one short paragraph long even if they include scripture.
I just ***ume you are spouting the same AntiMormon talking points I've heard and debunked a hundred times before.
We know your questions are not "questions" but attempts to trap us. That will never work however, because we know the answers to your questions, we know all the traps, we know the quotes you will use before you do, we know the AntiMormon sites you get your information from, we know the answers to any comeback, scriptures or quotes you will post, we also know how you will misinterpret those scriptures, WE ARE ALWAYS THREE OR FOUR STEPS AHEAD OF YOU!
So if we ask a question it is not because we think there is anything you can teach us, it is so that by you answering, You and any Lurkers who might happen by can see why your argument is flawed. This is why we know you know better than to answer any of our questions with anything more than pla***udes and scriptures which have nothing to do with the topic at hand... It is because if you answer you will have it on record as contradicting yourself, and be faced with the truth that contradicts your own beliefs.

So I'll ask the same question I ask most AntiMormons here... Just who are you trying to convince anyway?

It certainly can not be us because we know better, or the one or two Lurkers who are laughing at your silly attempts to discredit the LDS... It must be that you are trying to convince yourself.

No, I can't convince a single person, but God can. Who are you trying to convince? You seem so angry.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[alanmolstad]

what was the name again of that one person?.....

You know, that one Born-Again, New Testament Christin the Bible tells us that lost their salvation?

[alanmolstad]

Name of the born again Christian that lost salvation?

[alanmolstad]

I am saved...I'm saved forever.
I can not lose my salvation.
A born again christian...

To the people that teach others that guys like me can become lost I only have one question...

Who such as I ever is said to have been lost?...

In other words....nname me one born again Christian that is said to be lost?

[theway]

No, I can't convince a single person, but God can. Who are you trying to convince? You seem so angry.

In Christian Love,

GrandmaOh I am not angry; nothing on these sites can possibly get me angry, embarr***ed, shamed, or hurt.
I would have to respect your opinion for that to happen.

As I have stated over and over... I am here for the entertainment value only! I am not here to convince people or be convinced by someone.
As soon as this site becomes boring again, I will leave. But so far this site has provided lots of laughs and brings a smile to my face each morning.... So I guess your presence here is of some value after all.

[theway]

No, I can't convince a single person, but God can.
Wait a minute... Now you are not making any sense based on your past comments.
If God prechooses us without any say so on our part, forces Faith on us, and saves us against our will....


Then why does He have to convince us of anything??? What would be the point, as it will not matter whether we are convinced or not, based on your heretical theories of the Gospel?

[theway]

I am saved...I'm saved forever.
I can not lose my salvation.
A born again christian...

To the people that teach others that guys like me can become lost I only have one question...

Who such as I ever is said to have been lost?...

In other words....nname me one born again Christian that is said to be lost?


In other words you are saying... "Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow you are saved"
Such is the doctrine of Devils.
I asked before, I'll ask again, please explain the parable of the Ten Virgins to us?

[Grandma]

Just like saying "I'm saved" doesn't mean you're 100% guaranteed to get to heaven. The scriptures teach that we can lose our salvation. Once saved always saved is an idea founded in Calvinism, not the Old or New Testaments. Just because someone is a Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, etc doesn't mean the person gets an automatic p*** to heaven. Saying "Lord, Lord, you're my Savior and I'm a sinner" doesn't give you an automatic p*** to heaven. Jesus taught it is those who DO, act, take action, to act accordingly, the will of the Father will enter the kingdom of God.

You're right that claiming to be a Christian doesn't mean the person is really a Christian. I, for example, am a Christian because I follow Jesus Christ (the same one the Bible testifies of) and His gospel.

We can't lose our salvation because Jesus PAID for it.

Saying "I'm saved" is just words. Being saved means you've been born again. It's something God does and no one can undo it. The recipient belongs to Christ because the Father gave him or her to Christ.

[Grandma]

In other words you are saying... "Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow you are saved"
Such is the doctrine of Devils.

I asked before, I'll ask again, please explain the parable of the Ten Virgins to us?

Five of the ten virgins were born again. They knew Christ and He knew them.

[theway]

Five of the ten virgins were born again. They knew Christ and He knew them.
Wrong....
A Virgin was used to represent those within the church.
All Ten Virgins were invited to the wedding feast, I.e. "Chosen" in your vernacular.
Entrance into the wedding feast meant the same as entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven.
All had oil, but 5 were prepared with enough, while 5 were not.
They were the ones who had to get the oil on their own.... Nobody just gave it to them, nor could they give it to another, says the Bible.

In other words, God did not let them in simply because they had already been invited, they had to prepare themselves, or be prepared first by obtaining the oil on their own.

[alanmolstad]

So no one can name a single born again christian in the bible that lost their salvation???

Not one name?

[Grandma]

Wait a minute... Now you are not making any sense based on your past comments.
If God prechooses us without any say so on our part, forces Faith on us, and saves us against our will....

Then why does He have to convince us of anything??? What would be the point, as it will not matter whether we are convinced or not, based on your heretical theories of the Gospel?

I have no heretical theories of the Gospel that Christ brought. God is our Holy Creator. Do you think you should revere Him or accuse Him? Doesn't the potter have the right to make some pottery for special purposes and some for common use? Can one jar go on the counter for compost?

Is your god restricted from changing a person's heart?

Ezekiel 36
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

I praise God for that! Do you think He's being wicked and shoving the new birth on you against your will --- just because a man named Joseph Smith claimed that was Lucifer's plan. I've never met anyone who is angry about being born again.

Jeremiah 18:6
O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, "Why have you made me like this?"

God doesn't drag us kicking and screaming into heaven. He changes our will to doing His will.

[Grandma]

Cool. Be sure to tell the Atheists they're going to Heaven whether they want to or not. God doesn't force anyone into His kingdom. People can walk away from salvation by sinning and refusing to repent.

I have no idea who God is going to save! But there will be no wicked ones in heaven.

Jesus says that the saved are saved. They're no longer lost. They won't follow Satan because they know the voice of the Good Shepherd and they won't follow another voice!

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[Grandma]

Please read the scriptures. In the Nee Testament we learn that many will turn away from the truth and become lost. To turn from the truth and become lost means they were once in truth and saved but turned to false doctrines and go from a saved to a fallen state from that of salvation.

Oh, there are people in the pews who can fool us for awhile. Then they walk away from their pretense.

1 John 2:19 NIV
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.


In Christian Love,
Grandma

[Grandma]

Wrong....
A Virgin was used to represent those within the church.
All Ten Virgins were invited to the wedding feast, I.e. "Chosen" in your vernacular.
Entrance into the wedding feast meant the same as entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven.
All had oil, but 5 were prepared with enough, while 5 were not.
They were the ones who had to get the oil on their own.... Nobody just gave it to them, nor could they give it to another, says the Bible.

In other words, God did not let them in simply because they had already been invited, they had to prepare themselves, or be prepared first by obtaining the oil on their own.

Those virgins missed the boat because they weren't born again.

[alanmolstad]

There is not a single account in the bible of a Born Again believer losing his salvation!

None...not a single name!!!!

not a single Believer in Christ is said to have lost their salvation !


Consider the story of Mark.
Mark left the side of Paul, and this fact upset Paul to no end Im sure...
You see this come out in Paul's at***ude toward mark in later events.

Yet do we consider mark lost and ****ed just for walking away from the side of Paul?....No!

The text is also very clearly showing us via the lifeof Mark that yes, people might walk away from the hardship of ministy during their lives, but they are always part of the Lord's church...
Mark never stopped being saved!
Mark was and is always saved.....always forgiven and redeemed...

as am I.....



But some people still think people can lose their salvation regardless of the lack of support for that idea in the Bible.
To them I guess its like the Boogeyman, or Bigfoot....

Some people will always believe it these things ...they just will never be able to actually point to proof they are real....

[alanmolstad]

I do deny that the Bible teaches that any Born again believe was ever lost....go on,,,try to find where it says they "lost their salvation"....I dare you to seek the text out on that matter.

what you will find is that the Bible not even for a second says that a born again christian lost their salvation!!!!!

Lets now listen to what walter Martin has to say on this topic-


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtv_28UPOVY

the Martin stuff happens around the 3:01 point of the video...
check it out and then come back to the discussion with any questions you have about what is on the video....

[alanmolstad]

what we find in the Bible is that God is steadfast in his gift of salvation...

but people are still in the flesh, and the flesh is weak, and we dont always do the right thing, nor always act as we should.

In the Bible we read about men that left the ministry....but does the Bible tell us that they were therefore lost?.....NO!

people in Bible times left the ministry when it got too much for them, and the truth is, people to this very day find that the demands of full time ministry are just too much for them to bear...so they drop out.

But they are not kicked out of the church!
they are not then condemned to Hell's fires! and the Bible does not say they become lost!

So I dont really care what name you try to put forward, the truth is the bible does not say they lost their salvation if the person was truly born again....

Thus the idea that a christian can lose their salvation is an idea that is not based on the text, but rather it stems from the minds of men......
Mostly from the minds of men who want or need people to do stuff...
Stuff that ends with putting coin into pockets of the people teaching this error in the first place....





But for the record, the Bible at no place teaches that a Born Again Christian can lose their salvation, because it never happened....nor will it ever happen.



The Bible does say as Walter Martin points out that because of the great depth of some men's sins, God will take their life....but this is a sign of God's mercy too, as it is aimed at protecting the soul of the person.

[Saxon]

what was the name again of that one person?.....

You know, that one Born-Again, New Testament Christin the Bible tells us that lost their salvation?

Demas. He is listed with Luke in a greeting (See Colossians 4:14). He has forsaken Paul, having loved this present world (See 2 Timothy 4:10). He is listed as one of Paul's fellow labourers (See Philemon 1:24). James 4:4 states it clearly that the friendship of the world is enmity with God, and Demas LOVED the world.

Don't tell me that Demas wasn't saved because there is no evidence that he was not. All you have going for you is the circular reasoning of OSAS.

Colossians 4:14 Luke, the beloved physician, and Demas, greet you.

2 Timothy 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, ***us unto Dalmatia

Philemon 1:24 Marcus, Aristarchus, Demas, Lucas, my fellowlabourers.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

[Saxon]

Circular reasoning with on scriptural support.

[Saxon]

The idea that a christian cannot lose their salvation is an idea that is not based on the text, but rather it stems from the minds of men.

[alanmolstad]

Giving up full time ministry and moving back home is NOT LOSING SALVATION! .....that's just silly....
Ministry work full time is a single man's work...bbut even they sometimes fold their cards.
It does not mean they or you and I are lost....and the bible does Not Say they were lost....

But like bigfoot...some people just will always think weird ideas even if they can't at all back them up!

[Saxon]

How does a person that believes OSAS know if they themselves are saved. You may be the next to walk away from the living God, or your "pretense". (See Hebrews 3:12)

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

[Saxon]

We can't lose our salvation because Jesus PAID for it.

How does that prove that you can't lose salvation?




Saying "I'm saved" is just words. Being saved means you've been born again. It's something God does and no one can undo it. The recipient belongs to Christ because the Father gave him or her to Christ.

Where does the Bible say that you can't "undo it"? It isn't Hebrews 3:12.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

[Saxon]

Judas. You can't loose what you didn't have. (See John 17:12)

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

[Saxon]

More drivel. What has Bigfoot got to do with the Bible? You are not supporting you false theory from the Bible because there is no support for it in the Bible.

[alanmolstad]

Bigfoot is connected to this issue due to the fact that its the same type of mindset that some people have , for just as some people simply "believe" in Bigfoot regardless of the lack of support for it being real, so too do some people simply chose to "believe" that a christian can lose their salvation regardless of the fact that they can't actually point to a single case of this happening in the bible!

Not a single case!

Not a single name!


And just like with people who chose to believe in Bigfoot this lack of real support for their belief means? .......it means nothing to them. ...

It simply means nothing to them because they are way, way , past caring to support what they believe with facts.





A side note:

On a side note, the reason this issue is of importance is that the same people that believe they can lose their salvation become the very same people that false teachers feed on and fill their heads with all kinds of other false teachings that truly get people mixed up.

So it's not just this one issue that the problem, its the fact that once a false teacher has convinced a follower that they can lose their salvation, "unless" they keep doing some type of "works' you then can also convince these poor people that only via turning to these same false teachers can you learn what 'works" you need to keep doing to "stay saved"

And once that happens?.........once that happens you have yourself a true CULT.


This is how CULTS can maintain a firm grip on their members.
Not via love and trust, but rather on the power they have over their members who are consumed with the fear that unless they remain within and under the CULT'S authority they will not know what "works" to perform to remain saved.....


This forms a life-long dependence on the CULT....

The CULT gets a follower that will never dare look outside the CULT for truth,,,,,
and on other hand the CULT member never truly feels that they are good enough to be truly permanently 'saved"

All the member of a CULT can feel is that if they keep working hard for the CULT and do all they can do, then they get to "hope" this will be "good enough" to be saved.....



So while we like to say that "all CULTS teach a form of Works salvation" to their members, the real truth is that CULTS only teach a way to be 'almost saved" via works....

You can be 'almost saved"......

you can feel "almost" saved if you continue performing works for the CULT....

Almost good enough to be saved.....

Almost good enough to rest....almost ..........but just almost....





It's always just "almost".....

[theway]

Those virgins missed the boat because they weren't born again.Thats not true!
If you don't believe me, go read a good (non Calvinist) commentary on the verses.
Then read it again... The very fact that they were called a virgin meant that they were part of His Church... In other words, A CHRISTIAN. They were even invited to the wedding feast, and ALL of the 10 virgins were waiting for the Bridegroom's coming. All 10 would have had enough oil and would have been let in to the wedding feast or Heaven had the Bridegroom of come on time. Yet All the 10 Virgins were expected to fill up their own lamp with enough oil in case he didn't. They did not get their oil from the Bridegroom nor could they borrow it from someone else.
You simply do not understand the Bible, or you refuse to accept what you know to be true because you only want to obey God to a certain point, and no more!

You are like one of the foolish 5 Virgins who will not be prepared for the Lord's coming because you believe simply being invited was enough.
If you do not repent now, and go fill up your lamp with oil while there may still be time before it is too late... You will be turned away at the gates.

Now your next reading ***ignment which talks against OSAS is the "Parable of the Sower".
Read it, and then come back and give us your understanding of it.

[theway]

the Martin stuff happens around the 3:01 point of the video...
check it out and then come back to the discussion with any questions you have about what is on the video....LOL.... I don't know why you would think that someone like Walter Martin's opinions on God would be of any interest to me, even if for only the entertainment value. The guy does not know or understand anything about the gospel of Jesus Christ, the bible, or the Mormon Church. His own writings contradict themselves! He states that we are saved by Faith Alone, and then he'll state that we are NOT saved by faith alone.
I listen to a lot of non-Mormon Theologians, even ones I don't agree with. However I wouldn't even waste my time with Walter Martin, even if I could skip 3:01 minutes of his rant.

[theway]

I have no heretical theories of the Gospel that Christ brought. God is our Holy Creator. Do you think you should revere Him or accuse Him? Doesn't the potter have the right to make some pottery for special purposes and some for common use? Can one jar go on the counter for compost? You mean can the Potter make one jar to be bad, and another to be good? Of course He can! However, you can not call such a Potter, "a creator of good pottery" because he makes both bad and good jars. Likewise your God has the right to create some people to do evil and then punish them forever; and then create some to recieve endless rewards and goodness ... However you could never call such a God a God of Fairness, Mercy or Righteous, as He creates and promotes both evil and good.


Is your god restricted from changing a person's heart?

My question was NOT whether my God was "restricted from changing one's heart" but "what would be the point of changing one's heart?" If it makes no difference and changes nothing under your beliefs whether I or anyone else's heart is changed?


I praise God for that! Do you think He's being wicked and shoving the new birth on you against your will --- just because a man named Joseph Smith claimed that was Lucifer's plan. I've never met anyone who is angry about being born again.

Jeremiah 18:6
O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, "Why have you made me like this?"Not only should you ask, but it is imperative that you do find out to what purpose God has created you, and then live up fully to that purpose. If you are the one who God greater to do evil, then you need to find that out and be as evil as possible. That is the whole point of the gospel, to find your potential and live up to it!
Your misapplying of scripture and the heresies of men do not impress me.


God doesn't drag us kicking and screaming into heaven. He changes our will to doing His will.But under your "God does it all" theory, the only way a person could win the salvation lottery, is by being dragged against their will, kicking and screaming. Even your own fellow "God does it all" believers will admit to that... It seems you need to go back and huddle up with them to get your stories straight.

[Saxon]

Bigfoot is connected to this issue due to the fact that its the same type of mindset that some people have , for just as some people simply "believe" in Bigfoot regardless of the lack of support for it being real, so too do some people simply chose to "believe" that a christian can lose their salvation regardless of the fact that they can't actually point to a single case of this happening in the bible!

Not a single case!

Not a single name!

That describes the mindset of those that are believers in OSAS. There is not one mention that once you are saved you are always saved. Not a single case!! There is nothing that even hints at OSAS anywhere!




And just like with people who chose to believe in Bigfoot this lack of real support for their belief means? .......it means nothing to them. ...

It simply means nothing to them because they are way, way , past caring to support what they believe with facts.

That is what I think of a person believing in OSAS, no scriptural support no problem just keep saying it until people are bullied into believing that it is true even though it isn’t.




A side note:

On a side note, the reason this issue is of importance is that the same people that believe they can lose their salvation become the very same people that false teachers feed on and fill their heads with all kinds of other false teachings that truly get people mixed up.

So it's not just this one issue that the problem, its the fact that once a false teacher has convinced a follower that they can lose their salvation, "unless" they keep doing some type of "works' you then can also convince these poor people that only via turning to these same false teachers can you learn what 'works" you need to keep doing to "stay saved"

And once that happens?.........once that happens you have yourself a true CULT.


This is how CULTS can maintain a firm grip on their members.
Not via love and trust, but rather on the power they have over their members who are consumed with the fear that unless they remain within and under the CULT'S authority they will not know what "works" to perform to remain saved.....


This forms a life-long dependence on the CULT....

The CULT gets a follower that will never dare look outside the CULT for truth,,,,,
and on other hand the CULT member never truly feels that they are good enough to be truly permanently 'saved"

All the member of a CULT can feel is that if they keep working hard for the CULT and do all they can do, then they get to "hope" this will be "good enough" to be saved.....



So while we like to say that "all CULTS teach a form of Works salvation" to their members, the real truth is that CULTS only teach a way to be 'almost saved" via works....

You can be 'almost saved"......

you can feel "almost" saved if you continue performing works for the CULT....

Almost good enough to be saved.....

Almost good enough to rest....almost ..........but just almost....





It's always just "almost".....

You have said nothing that scripturally supports OSAS. Prove from the Bible that OSAS is scriptural as you were the one that brought it up. Stick to the subject. Now don’t wimp out by repeating you useless statement.

[Saxon]

No one will satisfy you because you are so hooked on OSAS that you can't get p***ed the idea that OSAS is right so no born again Christian can loose salvation in spite of the mul***ude of examples in the Old and New testaments that are thoroughly contrary to the nonsense of OSAS.

[Christian]

A BETTER question would be 'are there any Christians IN the mormon religion!

[theway]

A BETTER question would be 'are there any Christians IN the mormon religion!Better for who?
Mormons already know we are Christians, ergo, there are Christians IN the Mormon Church, so it is not a question for us to try and resolve....
It appears that the only ones having an issue with this question are extreme Evangelicals, who always concern themselves more with the sins and judging of other people, more than their own.

[Grandma]

This site sometimes posts duplicates. :(

[Grandma]

A BETTER question would be 'are there any Christians IN the mormon religion!

Go post to your own thread rather than attempt to disrupt this one! This one has a purpose that you are unable to see.

Thank you.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[Grandma]

[B]

Demas. He is listed with Luke in a greeting (See Colossians 4:14). He has forsaken Paul, having loved this present world (See 2 Timothy 4:10). He is listed as one of Paul's fellow labourers (See Philemon 1:24). James 4:4 states it clearly that the friendship of the world is enmity with God, and Demas LOVED the world.

Don't tell me that Demas wasn't saved because there is no evidence that he was not. All you have going for you is the circular reasoning of OSAS.

Colossians 4:14 Luke, the beloved physician, and Demas, greet you.

2 Timothy 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, ***us unto Dalmatia

Philemon 1:24 Marcus, Aristarchus, Demas, Lucas, my fellowlabourers.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

The Bible(IOW the word of God), the omnipotence of God, the omniscience of God, the character of God, and logic tell us that salvation cannot be lost.

Those who have been born again (by God, impossible by men) were given to Christ by the Father.

John 6 NIV
35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”

43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God. Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life..."

God knows everything including those who belong to Christ.

John 10
1 "Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2 The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.” 6 Jesus used this figure of speech, but the Pharisees did not understand what he was telling them.

7 Therefore Jesus said again, "Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13 The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.

What is a shepherd's ***? To care for the sheep. Can Jesus do that?

This says something about the sheep:

John 10:4-5
"When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice."

John 10:28 NIV
"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand."


"...whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God."

That's right!

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

John 17
6 “I have revealed youa to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

May God's words of ***urance to believers bless you.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[Grandma]

[/B].

How does that prove that you can't lose salvation?



[/B]

Where does the Bible say that you can't "undo it"? It isn't Hebrews 3:12.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Hypocrites don't endure to the end. Your argument doesn't belong in this thread. If you want to argue Arminianism against Calvinism, why not go to the appropriate forum? I also suggest that you follow the Bible's instructions on how to treat brothers and sisters in Christ --- please.

In Christian love,

Grandma

[Saxon]

Hypocrites don't endure to the end. Your argument doesn't belong in this thread. If you want to argue Arminianism against Calvinism, why not go to the appropriate forum? I also suggest that you follow the Bible's instructions on how to treat brothers and sisters in Christ --- please.

In Christian love,

Grandma

Hypocrites don't endure to the end. That is a true statement. The question is when did the hypocrisy set in? Was it before the person decided to “play” Christian, or sometime after committing to Christ and a Christian life.

The topic became integral to this thread when a respondent had declared that he was secure for ever and would not be able to lose salvation. I hope that you will instruct others as to what is appropriate for this thread.

What are the specific instructions from the Bible that you would you like me to pay attention to?

[Christian]

Way posted:

Better for who?
Mormons already know we are Christians, ergo, there are Christians IN the Mormon Church, so it is not a question for us to try and resolve....

I'm merely pointing out that mormon 'christianity' is a pathetic joke and that you are no more 'christians' than ducks. The TRUTH is that your religion (invented by joey smith in the 1800's) IS NOT the Christianity that is about 2,000 years old now. Your own 'prophet' (who cannot of course, prophesy) has said so.

In the 1970's mormons refused TO BE CALLED CHRISTIANS. They would tell you, "No, we are NOT Christians. . .we are mormons."

Now days mormon folks seem to want to appear to be more 'mainstream.'

It appears that the only ones having an issue with this question are extreme Evangelicals, who always concern themselves more with the sins and judging of other people, more than their own.

You mean the Evangelical CHRISTIANS, of course. . .

As to your own misinterpretation of what we concern ourselves with. . .that's YOUR problem

[theway]

In the 1970's mormons refused TO BE CALLED CHRISTIANS. They would tell you, "No, we are NOT Christians. . .we are mormons."
Thank you for giving us the time frame and for using quotation marks. I ***ume then that you have the exact quote, so please produce it! Otherwise you will be left exposed for what you truely are.


Now days mormon folks seem to want to appear to be more 'mainstream.'
LOL.... Actually I've found the opposite to be true, Those who call themselves Christian are trying to be more like the Mormons.


You mean the Evangelical CHRISTIANS, of course. . .
That is only true if you want to include Televangelists who are almost exclusively Evangelical.... Did you mean to include them?

[Erundur]

In the 1970's mormons refused TO BE CALLED CHRISTIANS. They would tell you, "No, we are NOT Christians. . .we are mormons."
I'm issuing a CFR on this claim.

[Saxon]

The Bible(IOW the word of God), the omnipotence of God, the omniscience of God, the character of God, and logic tell us that salvation cannot be lost.

The omnipotence of God, the omniscience of God, and the character of God has nothing to do with proof of OSAS. The flawed logic of man is all that pushes for OSAS. There is nothing in your above statement that indicates that OSAS is from the Bible, nothing.




Those who have been born again (by God, impossible by men) were given to Christ by the Father.

John 6 NIV
35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”

43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God. Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life..."

God knows everything including those who belong to Christ.

John 10
1 "Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2 The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.” 6 Jesus used this figure of speech, but the Pharisees did not understand what he was telling them.

7 Therefore Jesus said again, "Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13 The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.

What is a shepherd's ***? To care for the sheep. Can Jesus do that?

This says something about the sheep:

John 10:4-5
"When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice."

John 10:28 NIV
"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand."


"...whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God."

That's right!

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

John 17
6 “I have revealed youa to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

May God's words of ***urance to believers bless you.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

In all the above quotes you still have not pointed out that OSAS is a Bible supported doctrine. Listing verses that state that God will never leave or forsake us does not indicate that OSAS is true. It is true that God will not leave or forsake us. You seem to want to believe that if a saved person departs from the living God (See Hebrews 3:12) that it is somehow to be God’s fault. Get over it. It will be the person’s own fault if he or she departs from the living God. Jesus will not leave us; it is us that leave him. Remember that it is impossible to leave where you have never been.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

[Grandma]

The omnipotence of God, the omniscience of God, and the character of God has nothing to do with proof of OSAS. The flawed logic of man is all that pushes for OSAS. There is nothing in your above statement that indicates that OSAS is from the Bible, nothing.

In all the above quotes you still have not pointed out that OSAS is a Bible supported doctrine. Listing verses that state that God will never leave or forsake us does not indicate that OSAS is true. It is true that God will not leave or forsake us. You seem to want to believe that if a saved person departs from the living God (See Hebrews 3:12) that it is somehow to be God’s fault. Get over it. It will be the person’s own fault if he or she departs from the living God. Jesus will not leave us; it is us that leave him. Remember that it is impossible to leave where you have never been.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.



Ezekiel 36:26
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Romans 5:1-11, Romans 8:18-39, John 6:39-40, 44, John 10:25-30, Heb. 7:25. You can argue till the cows come home or Christ returns, but He is not a careless shepherd. If He loses one of the sheep, He's not who He says He is!


"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God." This is a warning to those who have evil hearts of unbelief.

Mark 4
1 And he began again to teach by the sea side: and there was gathered unto him a great mul***ude, so that he entered into a ship, and sat in the sea; and the whole mul***ude was by the sea on the land. 2 And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine, 3 Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow: 4 And it came to p***, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up. 5 And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth: 6 But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away. 7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit. 8 And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred. 9 And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

"And other fell on good ground and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred."

True believers hold firm to their confidence until the end.


1 John 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Faith is a gift that God gives and doesn't snatch away.

1 Corinthians 15:57
But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


The Bible (IOW the word of God), the omnipotence of God, the omniscience of God, the character of God, and logic tell us that salvation cannot be lost.

[Grandma]

[COLOR=#0000FF]
In the 1970's mormons refused TO BE CALLED CHRISTIANS. They would tell you, "No, we are NOT Christians. . .we are mormons."

In the seventies, Mormons told me, "Of course, we're Christians! The name of our Church is "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." I don't see how that proves a person's Christianity. Maybe what they claimed they were depended on the Mormon.

[Saxon]

Ezekiel 36:26
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Romans 5:1-11, Romans 8:18-39, John 6:39-40, 44, John 10:25-30, Heb. 7:25. You can argue till the cows come home or Christ returns, but He is not a careless shepherd. If He loses one of the sheep, He's not who He says He is!

You are on a different subject. Ezekiel has something to say about once righteous always righteous. It is the same as once saved always saved; no such thing supported in the Bible. He won't lose his sheep, he has clearly stated that. The sheep tend to wonder off of their own accord. Don't blame Jesus.

Ezekiel 3:20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Ezekiel 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Ezekiel 18:22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
Ezekiel 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his tresp*** that he hath tresp***ed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Romans 5:1-11 says a total nothing about OSAS.

Romans 8:18-39 says a total nothing about OSAS. The fact that nothing can separate us from the love of God does not speak or OSAS, after all God loved us while were were still in our sins and sent Jesus to die for the lost. If one departs from the living God we are not to ***ume that God would stop loving us.

John 6:39-40 says a total nothing about OSAS. As I said before, Jesus will lose nothing, it is us that are departing from the living God. You seem to think that God is somehow to be blamed if someone departs from the living God. Get over it. The fault is exclusively our own.

Everlasting life (eternal life) always was, always is and always will be. This life is ONLY in Christ. If you receive eternal life you have not change eternal life one bit. If you stay in Christ and eternal life you have not change eternal life one bit. If you depart from Christ and eternal life you have not change eternal life one bit. The eternal life in which you now stand is not dependent upon you if you stay in Christ or depart from Christ, eternal life is always eternal.

John 10:25-30 says a total nothing about OSAS. If you keep the context you will see that the story of the LOST SHEEP tells a different story of a sheep that departed from the good shepherd. The sheep got lost! No one can pluck us out of God’s hand but we do tend to wander off. If we are not returned to the fold we become a lion’s dinner.

Heb. 7:25 says a total nothing about OSAS. That is how he keeps us, but if we depart from the living God of our own accord, that is us leaving him, not him leaving us.




"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God." This is a warning to those who have evil hearts of unbelief.

Can a person that is not in Christ depart from Christ? The answer is easy; NO!




Mark 4
1 And he began again to teach by the sea side: and there was gathered unto him a great mul***ude, so that he entered into a ship, and sat in the sea; and the whole mul***ude was by the sea on the land. 2 And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine, 3 Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow: 4 And it came to p***, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up. 5 And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth: 6 But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away. 7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit. 8 And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred. 9 And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

That is all well but you do not want to see what Jesus said about the stony ground. Mark 4:16 said that they that heard the word receive it with gladness and Mark 4:17 says that they endured for a time and were then offended by affliction and persecution. Luke 8:13 is the same story but it is more clear that they believed and in a time of temptation they FELL AWAY. You can’t fall away from where you have not been.

Mark 4:16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
Mark 4:17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.




"And other fell on good ground and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred."

True believers hold firm to their confidence until the end.

When Jesus said that they believed are you going to say that they were not believers?




1 John 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Faith is a gift that God gives and doesn't snatch away.

There you go again, trying to blame God for a person’s own doing.




1 Corinthians 15:57
But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Amen, but no OSAS here either.




The Bible (IOW the word of God), the omnipotence of God, the omniscience of God, the character of God, and logic tell us that salvation cannot be lost.

The omnipotence of God, the omniscience of God, and the character of God has nothing to do with proof of OSAS. The flawed logic of man is all that pushes for OSAS. There is nothing in your above statement that indicates that OSAS is from the Bible, nothing.

[Grandma]

You are on a different subject. Ezekiel has something to say about once righteous always righteous. It is the same as once saved always saved; no such thing supported in the Bible. He won't lose his sheep, he has clearly stated that. The sheep tend to wonder off of their own accord. Don't blame Jesus.

Ezekiel 3:20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Ezekiel 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Ezekiel 18:22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
Ezekiel 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his tresp*** that he hath tresp***ed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Romans 5:1-11 says a total nothing about OSAS.

Romans 8:18-39 says a total nothing about OSAS. The fact that nothing can separate us from the love of God does not speak or OSAS, after all God loved us while were were still in our sins and sent Jesus to die for the lost. If one departs from the living God we are not to ***ume that God would stop loving us.

John 6:39-40 says a total nothing about OSAS. As I said before, Jesus will lose nothing, it is us that are departing from the living God. You seem to think that God is somehow to be blamed if someone departs from the living God. Get over it. The fault is exclusively our own.

Everlasting life (eternal life) always was, always is and always will be. This life is ONLY in Christ. If you receive eternal life you have not change eternal life one bit. If you stay in Christ and eternal life you have not change eternal life one bit. If you depart from Christ and eternal life you have not change eternal life one bit. The eternal life in which you now stand is not dependent upon you if you stay in Christ or depart from Christ, eternal life is always eternal.

John 10:25-30 says a total nothing about OSAS. If you keep the context you will see that the story of the LOST SHEEP tells a different story of a sheep that departed from the good shepherd. The sheep got lost! No one can pluck us out of God’s hand but we do tend to wander off. If we are not returned to the fold we become a lion’s dinner.

Heb. 7:25 says a total nothing about OSAS. That is how he keeps us, but if we depart from the living God of our own accord, that is us leaving him, not him leaving us.

Can a person that is not in Christ depart from Christ? The answer is easy; NO!

That is all well but you do not want to see what Jesus said about the stony ground. Mark 4:16 said that they that heard the word receive it with gladness and Mark 4:17 says that they endured for a time and were then offended by affliction and persecution. Luke 8:13 is the same story but it is more clear that they believed and in a time of temptation they FELL AWAY. You can’t fall away from where you have not been.

Mark 4:16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
Mark 4:17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

When Jesus said that they believed are you going to say that they were not believers?

There you go again, trying to blame God for a person’s own doing.

Amen, but no OSAS here either.

The omnipotence of God, the omniscience of God, and the character of God has nothing to do with proof of OSAS. The flawed logic of man is all that pushes for OSAS. There is nothing in your above statement that indicates that OSAS is from the Bible, nothing.

Don't blame Jesus? For what? For being the best Shepherd there ever was or ever will be? He takes care of His sheep. I proved it from God's word, but you don't want me to give Him the credit.

"There you go again, trying to blame God for a person’s own doing." I don't blame God for anything! I have nothing but praise and thanksgiving for all that He does.

Those who believe for only a short while are not His sheep.

1 John 2:19
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

You are now on my ignore list because you won't accept God's word yet you want to argue forever; your argurnents are not biblical. If and when your heart softens, we can communicate.

Ezekiel 36
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

In Christian Love and with my prayers,

Grandma

[Christian]

Originally Posted by ChristianIn the 1970's mormons refused TO BE CALLED CHRISTIANS. They would tell you, "No, we are NOT Christians. . .we are mormons."


I'm issuing a CFR on this claim.

What is a CFR?

That's what my mormon neighbors told me in Pocatello, Idaho in 1973 (SEVERAL of them did).

What's your complaint?

[Grandma]

What is a CFR?

That's what my mormon neighbors told me in Pocatello, Idaho in 1973 (SEVERAL of them did).

What's your complaint?

I believe you! Mormons don't all have the same answers.

[Saxon]

Don't blame Jesus? For what? For being the best Shepherd there ever was or ever will be? He takes care of His sheep. I proved it from God's word, but you don't want me to give Him the credit.

Every time I mention someone wandering off from Jesus you come back with Jesus somehow involved with a decision that he didn’t make.

You still haven’t accounted for the parable of the LOST sheep. How did the sheep get lost? Did the shepherd ignore the flock? No. Did the shepherd toss the sheep out of the flock? No. The sheep took it upon itself to wander off. You would rather cling to the fairy tail of OSAS than the truth of the Bible. Yes I want to give him credit but I won’t credit him for what he hasn’t promised.




"There you go again, trying to blame God for a person’s own doing." I don't blame God for anything! I have nothing but praise and thanksgiving for all that He does.

Every time I mention someone wandering off from Jesus you come back with Jesus somehow involved with a decision that he didn’t make.




Those who believe for only a short while are not His sheep.

Where did you get that? Is there a trial period before a believer is a believer? Where in Acts 16: 30 and 31 is there any mention of a trial period? This is just more smoke and mirrors.

Acts 16: 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16: 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.




1 John 2:19
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

You are now on my ignore list because you won't accept God's word yet you want to argue forever; your argurnents are not biblical. If and when your heart softens, we can communicate.

Why waist your time putting me on your ignore list, you have been doing a good *** ignoring me as it is. For the most part you don’t comment on what I have stated to even try to show me the error of my way and the one or two times that you did, all you do is shoot yourself in the foot.

The “short time believers” is totally bogus and definitely not a Bible teaching. Then the “"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God." This is a warning to those who have evil hearts of unbelief“ is silly. It is a warning to believers about DEPARTING FROM THE LIVING GOD, because of unbelief. Read the context.

At least I get my arguments from the Bible where as you are getting yours from your “logic”.




Ezekiel 36
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Explain how Ezekiel 36 and Romans 8:9 says anything about OSAS.




In Christian Love and with my prayers,

Grandma

Don’t give up before you get started.

[Saxon]

I want to be honest with you in letting you know that I do not agree with the LDS version of Christianity and find it difficult to believe that you like what I said as it has nothing to do with Mormon thought whatsoever. Just some information for you to keep in mind.

[Erundur]

What is a CFR?
Call For References. It's an invitation to back up your claim.

[Grandma]

There's a duck on this thread; I hear the quacks!


Love,

Grandma

[theway]

What is a CFR?

That's what my mormon neighbors told me in Pocatello, Idaho in 1973 (SEVERAL of them did).

What's your complaint?That's not an answer to a CFR...
What are the names of your friends so that we can ask them what they really said?
Or provide us a published quote from them.
Pardon me, if I don't believe your anecdoltal evidence. Just about everything you have said about the LDS Church so far has been wrong, so I suspect that you are making this bit up also...

[Grandma]

They won't? Ever? Are you telling me Christians are completely immune to Satan? That idea is straight from Satan himself.

John 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Hebrews 7: 25
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

[Grandma]

You pick the most random times to quote the scriptures you misunderstand. These scriptures do not mean Christians cannot fall into Satan's temptations. Christians can certainly fall away and yes I mean true Christians. Being a Christian doesn't the person is guaranteed salvation. You said it yourself that your belief means you don't know who will or won't be saved.

You know so little about the Bible that you misinterpret what little you do know.

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

It is impossible for Satan or anyone to take away what Christ has given. We have the new birth. We haven't yet been conformed to the image of Christ, but we are being changed into that image.

Isaiah 40:11
"He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young."

[Saxon]

You pick the most random times to quote the scriptures you misunderstand. These scriptures do not mean Christians cannot fall into Satan's temptations. Christians can certainly fall away and yes I mean true Christians. Being a Christian doesn't the person is guaranteed salvation. You said it yourself that your belief means you don't know who will or won't be saved.

Grandma is wrong when it comes to once saved always saved, but you are in error when it comes to salvation and being a Christian. A person does not become a Christian unless/until they are saved and going to heaven. If you were to understand the scripture that Grandma quoted you would stop being a Mormon and become a Bible believer.

If you are a Christian and as long as you are a Christian you are guaranteed salvation. If you depart from the living God, then the covenant is broken and the person is a person that has returned, like a dog to its vomit and like a pig to its wallowing in the mire. Christ and salvation have been abandoned by that person and is consequently living in sin once more. That is also a guarantee.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2 Peter 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2 Peter 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

[Saxon]

If you understand the Bible why do you need to do all the temple work when the Bible says that salvation is by grace and is a GIFT of God? The last time I checked gifts are not something that is work required. Grace obliterates the Mormon need to work to gain salvation. The Mormon idea of salvation is not the same as the Bible idea of salvation.

[theway]

If you understand the Bible why do you need to do all the temple work when the Bible says that salvation is by grace and is a GIFT of God? The last time I checked gifts are not something that is work required. Grace obliterates the Mormon need to work to gain salvation. Not only do your beliefs about salvation and grace contradict your fellow Christian "Grandma", but you contradict your own beliefs.
If you truely believed in "Faith Alone" AKA "Grace Alone", or "Cheap Grace" then why do you ***ert in your other statement that a person's salvation can be decided by their works?
You said Grace is given without works, however, you also stated that Grace can be taken away or not given to an individual based on works. You can not have it both ways, as the owner of this Forum tries to play both sides.
Either works is a part of Salvation or it is not! Whether those works are good or bad would make no difference....
Unless you are trying to say there is only power to affect salvation in bad works; but no power at all in good works???


The Mormon idea of salvation is not the same as the Bible idea of salvation.I wish you guys would be honest by not insinuating that this is a uniquely Mormon belief. Faith plus works is believed by up to 90% of those who call themselves Christian. YOU GUYS are the ones who believe in a modern heretical construct of men, not us

[Saxon]

Don't just tell me about my contradictions, show me my contradictions. Where have I ever stated that "salvation can be decided by their works"? Grace (salvation) is never "taken away", it is at times abandoned , left behind by a person that was once saved. Direct me to where I have stated, as you claim, works have anything to do with gaining salvation. If salvation is by grace, which it is, then it is impossible for it to be in any form, of works.

It is a unique Mormon belief, it isn't in the Bible.

Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

[theway]

Don't just tell me about my contradictions, show me my contradictions. Where have I ever stated that "salvation can be decided by their works"? Grace (salvation) is never "taken away", it is at times abandoned , left behind by a person that was once saved. Please....... That is nothing more than equivocation to try and save your failed theology. At least the TULIP people will admit in the open that in order for Faith Alone to work, "Once Saved Always Saved" would also have to be true, otherwise the whole lie is exposed.

Look it's very simple...

Abandoning faith = an action that effects salvation
An action = a work
Ergo... You believe a work can effect one's salvation.




Direct me to where I have stated, as you claim, works have anything to do with gaining salvation. If salvation is by grace, which it is, then it is impossible for it to be in any form, of works. This is where you want to own both sides which is impossible. If you note, I said that you believe that good works have nothing to do with salvation; however you also believe that bad works [abondoning own's faith] can effect your salvation.

This means you place all the Power of salvation in Bad works, but say there is no power in Good Works.

Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who subs***ute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who subs***ute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!



It is a unique Mormon belief, it isn't in the Bible.Really??? Orthodox Christianity make up 65% of those who call themselves Christian. They believe works such as water baptism are essential to salvation, so much so that they baptize babies who have No Faith.
Ironically Mormons are in the middle, with Faith Aloners on one side and Othodox Christianity on the other.
Of the remaining 1/3 of Christianity only a third of those believe in true Faith Alone making only 9%-12% of believers in Christianity believing that salvation is not dependent on works of any kind (good or bad)


Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.I like these scriptures and agree 100% with them.

[alanmolstad]

John 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Hebrews 7: 25
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.None are lost....

[theway]

None are lost....Well then, it appears you'll have to huddle up with Saxon to come up with a doctrine of salvation that Christians can agree on.

[Grandma]

Well then, it appears you'll have to huddle up with Saxon to come up with a doctrine of salvation that Christians can agree on.

People don't agree. Do you agree with Baptists, Wesleyans, and Community of Christ?

Do you agree with the Bible that Christ died for the ungodly? Do you agree with Erundur that there are Christians outside the LDS church?

Love,

Grandma

[MickeyS]

You know so little about the Bible that you misinterpret what little you do know.

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

It is impossible for Satan or anyone to take away what Christ has given. We have the new birth. We haven't yet been conformed to the image of Christ, but we are being changed into that image.

Isaiah 40:11
"He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young."

Not to just jump in on this but I've been reading through comments. Do you believe then that once you have given yourself to Christ and believe on Him, that's it, that's all you have to do. That's what this entire earthly mission was to just find Him and believe and that's it? I'm sincerely asking, not baiting, I'm really curious.

[MickeyS]

Not only do your beliefs about salvation and grace contradict your fellow Christian "Grandma", but you contradict your own beliefs.
If you truely believed in "Faith Alone" AKA "Grace Alone", or "Cheap Grace" then why do you ***ert in your other statement that a person's salvation can be decided by their works?
You said Grace is given without works, however, you also stated that Grace can be taken away or not given to an individual based on works. You can not have it both ways, as the owner of this Forum tries to play both sides.
Either works is a part of Salvation or it is not! Whether those works are good or bad would make no difference....
Unless you are trying to say there is only power to affect salvation in bad works; but no power at all in good works???

I wish you guys would be honest by not insinuating that this is a uniquely Mormon belief. Faith plus works is believed by up to 90% of those who call themselves Christian. YOU GUYS are the ones who believe in a modern heretical construct of men, not us

Okay...I'm putting my beliefs out there, you don't have to agree with them, I'm just clearing up confusion, please don't attack my beliefs, I'm not trying to destroy anyone else's, and if you don't believe or care what my beliefs are...does it really matter??

Salvation We are all "saved" by the grace of Jesus Christ. Everyone who came here and received a body chose God's Plan of Salvation in the pre-existence. We are all destined to receive a final degree of glory of which will exceed the conditions of this earth a hundred fold. (some will not...they will be those who upon receiving a FULL knowledge of the truthfulness of the gospel, deny it and seek to destroy it. So in effect, Mormons would believe that the only spirits who will end up here and not be resurrected will in fact be Mormons, but it would have to be pretty bad) Now...we believe that building experiences, applying the Atonement, making Christ the center of your life, good works, increasing spiritual knowledge and essentially striving to become like Christ, along with the saving priesthood ordinances necessary, will be required to achieve the highest degree of glory being exaltation and being in the presence of God the Father for eternity. Even those who receive the lowest degree and led wicked lives will not be punished FOR ETERNITY. They will suffer for their sins prior to being resurrected after judgment. But, you could still refer to that as "****ed" in the sense that it stops their progression to the highest level. I find this all to be quite reasonable, why wouldn't there be many levels of eternity? It can't be as black and white as simple "Heaven" and "Hell" Why wouldn't there be many requirements to receive the highest degree, to return to His presence? I don't take lightly the fact that He sent His ONLY begotten Son to this earth to SUFFER exquisite pain for all the sins of mankind. I would think there would need to be effort expended on our behalf to become worthy to be in His presence. It really makes sense. And the fact that He does not send those to an ETERNITY of suffering for the wickedness of man that a lot of Christians believe will send them to Hell....forever, makes sense too. Those that are cast to outer darkness are basically only those who know of Gods Plan, know what they need to do, agreed and accepted that and then turned their back on it and cast Him aside. The rest will suffer, and as it says in the scriptures, they will suffer like He did...but not forever. What loving Father punishes their children for forever?? I'm sure I didn't convey this like I had hoped to, but the basics are

We are all saved, we will all be resurrected, we will receive a degree of glory. Where we want to spend our eternity will be dependent upon our time here.

But I also know that ALL mankind will have EQUAL opportunities to receive the teachings of the Gospel to where they understand it before they will accept or reject it. There are opportunities beyond this existence prior to the 2nd Coming. And the millennium will be untilized for the remaining work that will need to be done. All will have a chance. God would not be a fair and just God if that weren't so.

That's my belief, I understand you deny and despise it, but I just wanted to clear it up. I'll try not to be hurt too much when the attacks come :(

[alanmolstad]

Not to just jump in on this but I've been reading through comments. Do you believe then that once you have given yourself to Christ and believe on Him, that's it, that's all you have to do. That's what this entire earthly mission was to just find Him and believe and that's it? I'm sincerely asking, not baiting, I'm really curious.

The point of life,is to respond to the calling of God that you receive,
that you love the Lord with all your heart, and your neighbor as yourself.

all the rest is just the stuff that gets added to this.

[theway]

People don't agree. Do you agree with Baptists, Wesleyans, and Community of Christ?That depends on the issue. However if it comes to "doctrines of salvation" or how one is saved, then you had better be correct and on the same page, otherwise you are not working on the Lord's side. In other words, if you are wrong about Faith Alone, then you could be delaying the day of your repentance and wasting the days of your probation here on earth. Even with the best of intentions you could be dooming yourself and anyone who believes you to spiritual death. As the saying goes; "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions".
Both of you profess to be Followers of Christ yet, one of you is wrong about how one is saved; which means one of you is working for the wrong side, even if you do not know it.
Imagine if it turns out that both of you are wrong!


Do you agree with the Bible that Christ died for the ungodly? Of course He did.

Romans 5:6, For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

2Cor. 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

1 Tim. 4:10, "For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers."

1 John 2:2, "and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."


Do you agree with Erundur that there are Christians outside the LDS church?
Of Course I do!

[theway]

Okay...I'm putting my beliefs out there, you don't have to agree with them, I'm just clearing up confusion, please don't attack my beliefs, I'm not trying to destroy anyone else's, and if you don't believe or care what my beliefs are...does it really matter??

Salvation We are all "saved" by the grace of Jesus Christ. Everyone who came here and received a body chose God's Plan of Salvation in the pre-existence. We are all destined to receive a final degree of glory of which will exceed the conditions of this earth a hundred fold. (some will not...they will be those who upon receiving a FULL knowledge of the truthfulness of the gospel, deny it and seek to destroy it. So in effect, Mormons would believe that the only spirits who will end up here and not be resurrected will in fact be Mormons, but it would have to be pretty bad) Now...we believe that building experiences, applying the Atonement, making Christ the center of your life, good works, increasing spiritual knowledge and essentially striving to become like Christ, along with the saving priesthood ordinances necessary, will be required to achieve the highest degree of glory being exaltation and being in the presence of God the Father for eternity. Even those who receive the lowest degree and led wicked lives will not be punished FOR ETERNITY. They will suffer for their sins prior to being resurrected after judgment. But, you could still refer to that as "****ed" in the sense that it stops their progression to the highest level. I find this all to be quite reasonable, why wouldn't there be many levels of eternity? It can't be as black and white as simple "Heaven" and "Hell" Why wouldn't there be many requirements to receive the highest degree, to return to His presence? I don't take lightly the fact that He sent His ONLY begotten Son to this earth to SUFFER exquisite pain for all the sins of mankind. I would think there would need to be effort expended on our behalf to become worthy to be in His presence. It really makes sense. And the fact that He does not send those to an ETERNITY of suffering for the wickedness of man that a lot of Christians believe will send them to Hell....forever, makes sense too. Those that are cast to outer darkness are basically only those who know of Gods Plan, know what they need to do, agreed and accepted that and then turned their back on it and cast Him aside. The rest will suffer, and as it says in the scriptures, they will suffer like He did...but not forever. What loving Father punishes their children for forever?? I'm sure I didn't convey this like I had hoped to, but the basics are

We are all saved, we will all be resurrected, we will receive a degree of glory. Where we want to spend our eternity will be dependent upon our time here.

But I also know that ALL mankind will have EQUAL opportunities to receive the teachings of the Gospel to where they understand it before they will accept or reject it. There are opportunities beyond this existence prior to the 2nd Coming. And the millennium will be untilized for the remaining work that will need to be done. All will have a chance. God would not be a fair and just God if that weren't so.

That's my belief, I understand you deny and despise it, but I just wanted to clear it up. I'll try not to be hurt too much when the attacks come :(Actually I don't disagree with anything you said.
My posts to Saxon and Grandma was to show how they not only contradict each other, but also their own beliefs.

[theway]

The point of life,is to respond to the calling of God that you receive,
that you love the Lord with all your heart, and your neighbor as yourself.

all the rest is just the stuff that gets added to this.That sounds like a lot of work.... What if I make the effort and choose not to respond to the calling based on my own free agency? Is that possible?

[theway]

Not to just jump in on this but I've been reading through comments. Do you believe then that once you have given yourself to Christ and believe on Him, that's it, that's all you have to do. That's what this entire earthly mission was to just find Him and believe and that's it? I'm sincerely asking, not baiting, I'm really curious.
Actually it's worse than that... Grandma believes in Predestination and "God does it all" without any effort by the person whatsoever.
Which means that Grandma doesnt even believe that you need to even "find Him" or even "believe" because "He'll find you" and God will then give you the faith and the belief.
As completely wrong as Grandma is with her Calvinist heresies, at least she is true to them.

[MickeyS]

Oh my...I feel incredibly stupid now lol...that's what I get for ****ing in :/

[Grandma]

Not to just jump in on this but I've been reading through comments. Do you believe then that once you have given yourself to Christ and believe on Him, that's it, that's all you have to do. That's what this entire earthly mission was to just find Him and believe and that's it? I'm sincerely asking, not baiting, I'm really curious.

Christ bought my salvation and gave me the new birth. I once was darkness, now I'm light in the Lord, and want to walk in the light. I love Christ. If I don't want to keep His commandments, it would be a lie to say that I love Him.

Ephesians 4
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 5:8
For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature:old things are p***ed away; behold, all things are become new.

If God reached down and saved a person, he CHANGED that person. "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in tresp***es and sins;" (Eph. 2:1)

I could go on and on. The person who claims to be a Christian, and doesn't follow Christ, was never saved.

I didn't find Christ, He pulled me out of the pit while I was still a sinner.

[Grandma]

Actually it's worse than that... Grandma believes in Predestination and "God does it all" without any effort by the person whatsoever.
Which means that Grandma doesnt even believe that you need to even "find Him" or even "believe" because "He'll find you" and God will then give you the faith and the belief.
As completely wrong as Grandma is with her Calvinist heresies, at least she is true to them.

God doesn't save people to walk in darkness. He doesn't force people to follow Him; He changes a person's heart--- He changes a person's desire; He opens their eyes and ears.

If you think a person can do that for himself, you're mistaken.

Ezekiel 36:26
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

I make an effort because I love Him, but God gets the glory, because it is not I but the grace of God that is with me. I read my Bible.

[Grandma]

Oh my...I feel incredibly stupid now lol...that's what I get for ****ing in :/

You are NOT stupid! People should ask questions.

[Grandma]

Okay...I'm putting my beliefs out there, you don't have to agree with them, I'm just clearing up confusion, please don't attack my beliefs, I'm not trying to destroy anyone else's, and if you don't believe or care what my beliefs are...does it really matter??

Salvation We are all "saved" by the grace of Jesus Christ. Everyone who came here and received a body chose God's Plan of Salvation in the pre-existence. We are all destined to receive a final degree of glory of which will exceed the conditions of this earth a hundred fold. (some will not...they will be those who upon receiving a FULL knowledge of the truthfulness of the gospel, deny it and seek to destroy it. So in effect, Mormons would believe that the only spirits who will end up here and not be resurrected will in fact be Mormons, but it would have to be pretty bad) Now...we believe that building experiences, applying the Atonement, making Christ the center of your life, good works, increasing spiritual knowledge and essentially striving to become like Christ, along with the saving priesthood ordinances necessary, will be required to achieve the highest degree of glory being exaltation and being in the presence of God the Father for eternity. Even those who receive the lowest degree and led wicked lives will not be punished FOR ETERNITY. They will suffer for their sins prior to being resurrected after judgment. But, you could still refer to that as "****ed" in the sense that it stops their progression to the highest level. I find this all to be quite reasonable, why wouldn't there be many levels of eternity? It can't be as black and white as simple "Heaven" and "Hell" Why wouldn't there be many requirements to receive the highest degree, to return to His presence? I don't take lightly the fact that He sent His ONLY begotten Son to this earth to SUFFER exquisite pain for all the sins of mankind. I would think there would need to be effort expended on our behalf to become worthy to be in His presence. It really makes sense. And the fact that He does not send those to an ETERNITY of suffering for the wickedness of man that a lot of Christians believe will send them to Hell....forever, makes sense too. Those that are cast to outer darkness are basically only those who know of Gods Plan, know what they need to do, agreed and accepted that and then turned their back on it and cast Him aside. The rest will suffer, and as it says in the scriptures, they will suffer like He did...but not forever. What loving Father punishes their children for forever?? I'm sure I didn't convey this like I had hoped to, but the basics are

We are all saved, we will all be resurrected, we will receive a degree of glory. Where we want to spend our eternity will be dependent upon our time here.

But I also know that ALL mankind will have EQUAL opportunities to receive the teachings of the Gospel to where they understand it before they will accept or reject it. There are opportunities beyond this existence prior to the 2nd Coming. And the millennium will be untilized for the remaining work that will need to be done. All will have a chance. God would not be a fair and just God if that weren't so.

That's my belief, I understand you deny and despise it, but I just wanted to clear it up. I'll try not to be hurt too much when the attacks come :(

Are you kidding? You know that your religion says my beliefs are wrong. Do you think non-Mormons are happy about that? If God wants me to point out heresies, is that going to hurt you or any other Mormon? Don't you believe that a Christian should clear up heresies?

Romans 16:17-18
"Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple."

Acts 26:5-6
"Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers:"

Acts 8:19-20
"Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money."

1 Timothy 4:16
"Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee."

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[Grandma]

theway,

Do you agree with the Bible that Christ died for the ungodly? Do you agree with Erundur that there are Christians outside the LDS church?

Love,

Grandma

[theway]

God doesn't save people to walk in darkness. He doesn't force people to follow Him; He changes a person's heart--- He changes a person's desire; He opens their eyes and ears.

If you think a person can do that for himself, you're mistaken.

Ezekiel 36:26
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

I make an effort because I love Him, but God gets the glory, because it is not I but the grace of God that is with me. I read my Bible.You said God does it all, and that no man can turn to God on their own, and even if they could that it would not effect their salvation in any way.
THIS MEANS THAT YOU BELIEVE A PERSON HAS TO BE FORCED AGAINST THEIR WILL TO BE SAVED!

[theway]

theway,

Do you agree with the Bible that Christ died for the ungodly? Do you agree with Erundur that there are Christians outside the LDS church?

Love,

Grandma


See my post #109

[Grandma]

That depends on the issue. However if it comes to "doctrines of salvation" or how one is saved, then you had better be correct and on the same page, otherwise you are not working on the Lord's side. In other words, if you are wrong about Faith Alone, then you could be delaying the day of your repentance and wasting the days of your probation here on earth. Even with the best of intentions you could be dooming yourself and anyone who believes you to spiritual death. As the saying goes; "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions".
Both of you profess to be Followers of Christ yet, one of you is wrong about how one is saved; which means one of you is working for the wrong side, even if you do not know it.
Imagine if it turns out that both of you are wrong!

Of course He did.

Romans 5:6, For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

2Cor. 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

1 Tim. 4:10, "For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers."

1 John 2:2, "and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."

Of Course I do!

So why do Mormons say we don't have the gift of the Holy Ghost, we follow the teachings of men, we don't have valid baptisms, we don't have the laws and ordinances necessary to spend eternity with God, our creeds are an abomination to God, only Mormons are in the Kingdom of God, and we belong to the church of the devil?


The Book of Mormon is clear that those not of the church of Jesus Christ are of the church of the devil. I don't know why critics think that's harsh. Its common sense. There's no other church other than the two.

[Grandma]

You said God does it all, and that no man can turn to God on their own, and even if they could that it would not effect their salvation in any way.
THIS MEANS THAT YOU BELIEVE A PERSON HAS TO BE FORCED AGAINST THEIR WILL TO BE SAVED!

No, it means that they saw the Light! I once was blind, but now I see,

[theway]

You are NOT stupid! People should ask questions.The problem is that I have been asking you question repeatedly, yet you have yet to answer even one of them.

[theway]

No, it means that they saw the Light! I once was blind, but now I see,
There's the paradox... How can a person see the light if it is impossible for them to turn to God on their own because the will of man is to only do evil..... Right??

[Grandma]

There's the paradox... How can a person see the light if it is impossible for them to turn to God on their own because the will of man is to only do evil..... Right??


Acts 26
15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. 16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; 17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

1 Corinthians 1

Christ the Wisdom and Power of God
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

The Foolish to Shame the Wise
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

How can people see the truth? By God's power!

2 Timothy 2:25 KJV
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

2 Timothy 2:25 NIV
Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[Grandma]

Then you sorely need living prophets and apostles. You gave another example of the New Age Christianity not being one church and a united body. Paul said it very clearly that prophets and apostles will be given until the saints come under a UNITY, not a divided, of faith believing in sound doctrine, not in different versions.

You don't know what you're talking about. And we are not New Age Christianity.

[Grandma]

Do you agree with the Bible that Christ died for the ungodly?

Of course He did.

Romans 5:6, For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

2Cor. 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

1 Tim. 4:10, "For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers."

1 John 2:2, "and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."

Of Course I do!

Romans 4:16 (Inspired Version by Joseph Smith)
Therefore ye are justified of faith and works, through grace, to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to them only who are of the law, but to them also who are of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all

Romans 4 (KJV)
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Abraham Receives the Promise
(Genesis 15:8-21; Numbers 34:1-15)

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Do you believe that God justifies the ungodly and counts them as righteous if they come to faith in Christ without works?

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[theway]

Romans 4:16 (Inspired Version by Joseph Smith)
Therefore ye are justified of faith and works, through grace, to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to them only who are of the law, but to them also who are of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all

Romans 4 (KJV)
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Abraham Receives the Promise
(Genesis 15:8-21; Numbers 34:1-15)

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,None of this refutes anything I have said so far as I agree with all of these verses.


Do you believe that God justifies the ungodly and counts them as righteous if they come to faith in Christ without works?

In Christian Love,

GrandmaGod can...
However this is not the question you first asked. You simple reworded it because I answered it correctly the first time exposing your lack of knowledge.

[Grandma]

Then how come between you and evey Mormon on here, you're the one that keeps messing up on what the scriptures mean?
I refer to all churches that were created through man's ideologies New Age Christianity. That's because your doctrines are foreign to the scriptures and to those who taught it as it originally was, which has been restored to the earth.

And who relies on the Bible verses most here? You are constantly accusing instead of discussing the scriptures I post. If that's what you want to, it's fine with me. I'm here to confront false doctrines.

Love,

Grandma

[Grandma]

None of this refutes anything I have said so far as I agree with all of these verses.

God can...
However this is not the question you first asked. You simple reworded it because I answered it correctly the first time exposing your lack of knowledge.

Which verses do you agree with? I posted contradicting verses.

I didn't say you were wrong. Fatigue doesn't equal lack of knowledge. So you believe people are justified and will be with God the Father in the next life without following the law of obedience, right?

[theway]

I didn't say you were wrong. Fatigue doesn't equal lack of knowledge. So you believe people are justified and will be with God the Father in the next life without following the law of obedience, right?
It is possible.... However if you have the time to read this and can understand what I just wrote, then no, you can not be saved simply on a belief or Faith in God.

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

God will not save people in their sins.

[Grandma]

It is possible.... However if you have the time to read this and can understand what I just wrote, then no, you can not be saved simply on a belief or Faith in God.

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

God will not save people in their sins.

The Son gave His life for the ungodly. Why do Mormons think they're sinless unlike the rest of the people in the world?

Why do Mormons say we don't have the gift of the Holy Ghost, we follow the teachings of men, we don't have valid baptisms, we don't have the laws and ordinances necessary to spend eternity with God, our creeds are an abomination to God, only Mormons are in the Kingdom of God, and we belong to the church of the devil? And yet you claim there are Christians outside your church.

[theway]

The Son gave His life for the ungodly. True

Why do Mormons think they're sinless unlike the rest of the people in the world?False, we think no such thing.

Why do Mormons say we don't have the gift of the Holy Ghost, Because you don't.

we follow the teachings of men, Because you do sometimes.

we don't have valid baptisms, Because you don't.

we don't have the laws and ordinances necessary to spend eternity with God,Because you don't; or I should say you don't have the Authority to bind on Earth and Heaven as was given to the Early Apostles and Prophets.

our creeds are an abomination to God, Because they are.

only Mormons are in the Kingdom of God, Completely false, we believe no such thing.

and we belong to the church of the devil? We believe no such thing.

And yet you claim there are Christians outside your church.Because its true.

Seems like you're a "hit and miss" in your ***esment of what we believe.
Best you stop reading Anti Mormon sites for your "Truth" I could have flipped a coin and got the same results you did....

[theway]

If you're here to confront false doctrine you should start with the trinity, a doctrine that's at the core of New Age Christianity.I don't see The Trinity Doctrine as originating from New Age Christianity. It had it's beginning in Greek and Roman Paganism around the Third to Fifth Century.
I see "Faith Alone" at the core of New Age Christianity.

[MickeyS]

Are you kidding? You know that your religion says my beliefs are wrong. Do you think non-Mormons are happy about that? If God wants me to point out heresies, is that going to hurt you or any other Mormon? Don't you believe that a Christian should clear up heresies?

Romans 16:17-18
"Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple."


It's not MY RELIGION. It's not the "Mormon" church it is the Church of Jesus Christ as he organized it during His ministry. The word "Mormon" will not matter after you leave this life. It will only matter who accepts the gospel and is baptized into His church by the power of His holy priesthood. (Why on earth was He baptized if not for an example of what WE should do? He didn't need to have His sins washed away...He was perfect...He did that to be obedient to the Father, and to set the example for us all to follow) If you don't accept it in this life, you will have more opportunities in the Spirit World, if you don't believe that, then it won't matter, but I do not believe that you are ****ed or condemned or less of a Christian because you are not "Mormon" AND, me, the church, Joseph Smith, the general authorities...nobody is saying your beliefs are wrong. We believe this is what God has established, this is what the Savior said...that's what we believe and if we believe that...than you can't say WE are telling you you're wrong! WE didn't say that. That is what I believe, if you find that heresy, that's up to you, but don't you think that scripture from Acts could just as easily fit what happened to the church after the Apostles were killed off? Don't you think with no divine guidance from a holy prophet of God that the church could just as easily fell into the hands of men that established doctrine contrary to what was taught? And yes, I guess that is what a Christian should do, and that is what Joseph Smith has been doing from the beginning...he has been correcting heresy that has occurred because of the centuries man was without the divine guidance of a prophet. You can't be mad at Mormons because of what they believe God has said. Do you believe atheists go to hell? Do you feel like you should apologize to them that you believe that? I don't believe atheists will go to hell...I feel "my religion" is actually a lot more fair than pretty much ALL other Christian sects I've heard of. You have to do some pretty bad stuff to be submitted to an eternity of hell, yet it's ok for other Christians to spout this belief all the time, going as far as saying babies won't even return to the presence of the Father because their parents didn't baptize them. And you say MY religion is judgmental and unfair? Wow


Acts 8:19-20
"Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money."

Who purchased God with money????


1 Timothy 4:16
"Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee."

Again....this could be a warning of what actually happened, and that is doctrine was changed. Without prophets, how could it not? You can call me heretic, and I could just as easily say the same of you. But don't tell me I look down upon or think of other Christians as "less than" Heck, right now I'M "less than" where I want to be. Everybody's at different stages in their spiritual progression and if I believe what I do...and I do...then I couldn't possibly think of you as "less than" because you have not had the full opportunities available to you to hear the gospel (plus because I don't believe ANYONE is "less than" we are ALL children of our Heavenly Father, it is not my place to determine anybody's place, anywhere.) You have doctrine you've been taught that is conflicting, you have things you've read, you have opinions about leaders of the LDS church...of course all of those things are going to affect your desire to even listen to what's being said with an open mind let alone accept it. I don't believe this will be your only chance Grandma. You will have other opportunities, He doesn't just give us fleeting chances and if we don't bite, we're screwed for eternity. I think God is a fair and just God...."Heaven" as you say it...or the Celestial Kingdom will be chock full of Christians who didn't live this life as Mormons. I believe that with all my heart.

[Grandma]

Grandma: "only Mormons are in the Kingdom of God,"

Completely false, we believe no such thing.

You can't speak for all Mormons. Yout church teaches that when a person is baptized and confirmed a member of your church, they enter the kingdom of God on earth.

Grandma: "and we belong to the church of the devil?"

We believe no such thing.

ChildofGod said so and the last missionary I spoke with agreed. The BoM also says so.


Best you stop reading Anti Mormon sites for your "Truth" I could have flipped a coin and got same results you did....

Do you want me to stop reading rhe Bible online and lds.org? Those are the sites I visit most.

[Grandma]

The point I was getting at was the idea of it in Christianity at all is part of New Age Christianity, not that it originated in it. The origin of course is, as you stated, in Paganism. Trinities are all over their theologies

Not the Triune Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

[Grandma]

It's not MY RELIGION. It's not the "Mormon" church it is the Church of Jesus Christ as he organized it during His ministry. The word "Mormon" will not matter after you leave this life. It will only matter who accepts the gospel and is baptized into His church by the power of His holy priesthood. (Why on earth was He baptized if not for an example of what WE should do? He didn't need to have His sins washed away...He was perfect...He did that to be obedient to the Father, and to set the example for us all to follow) If you don't accept it in this life, you will have more opportunities in the Spirit World, if you don't believe that, then it won't matter, but I do not believe that you are ****ed or condemned or less of a Christian because you are not "Mormon" AND, me, the church, Joseph Smith, the general authorities...nobody is saying your beliefs are wrong.

You don't know your own religion. Read Joseph Smith History-1 in the Pearl of Great Price. That's the official version of what's known as the First Vision. Read History of the Church, 5 volumes. Read Jesus the Christ by James Talmage.



We believe this is what God has established, this is what the Savior said...that's what we believe and if we believe that...than you can't say WE are telling you you're wrong! WE didn't say that. That is what I believe, if you find that heresy, that's up to you, but don't you think that scripture from Acts could just as easily fit what happened to the church after the Apostles were killed off? Don't you think with no divine guidance from a holy prophet of God that the church could just as easily fell into the hands of men that established doctrine contrary to what was taught? And yes, I guess that is what a Christian should do, and that is what Joseph Smith has been doing from the beginning...he has been correcting heresy that has occurred because of the centuries man was without the divine guidance of a prophet. You can't be mad at Mormons because of what they believe God has said. Do you believe atheists go to hell? Do you feel like you should apologize to them that you believe that? I don't believe atheists will go to hell...I feel "my religion" is actually a lot more fair than pretty much ALL other Christian sects I've heard of. You have to do some pretty bad stuff to be submitted to an eternity of hell, yet it's ok for other Christians to spout this belief all the time, going as far as saying babies won't even return to the presence of the Father because their parents didn't baptize them. And you say MY religion is judgmental and unfair? Wow

I'm not mad at Mormons. I don't know which verses in Acts you're speaking of. I never saif thad baptism is a requirement of salvation.



Who purchased God with money????

No one can purchase God.




Again....this could be a warning of what actually happened, and that is doctrine was changed. Without prophets, how could it not?

God is sovereign. His word contains His true doctrine.



You can call me heretic, and I could just as easily say the same of you. But don't tell me I look down upon or think of other Christians as "less than."

I didn't tell you what you think or believe. I was talking about what your religion teaches. Some Mormons don't know what their church teaches. Other Mormons don't believe what their church teaches.



Heck, right now I'M "less than" where I want to be. Everybody's at different stages in their spiritual progression and if I believe what I do...and I do...then I couldn't possibly think of you as "less than" because you have not had the full opportunities available to you to hear the gospel (plus because I don't believe ANYONE is "less than" we are ALL children of our Heavenly Father, it is not my place to determine anybody's place, anywhere.)

I've had the opportunity. I just wasn't bombarded with Mormon teaching since childhood. Your religion imputes Christ's righteousness to no one. No Mormons are perfect. You fall short of the glory of God. Your attempts at righteousness bring you short of the glory of God.

Doctrine and Covenants 1
31 For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;



You have doctrine you've been taught that is conflicting, you have things you've read, you have opinions about leaders of the LDS church...of course all of those things are going to affect your desire to even listen to what's being said with an open mind let alone accept it. I don't believe this will be your only chance Grandma. You will have other opportunities, He doesn't just give us fleeting chances and if we don't bite, we're screwed for eternity. I think God is a fair and just God...."Heaven" as you say it...or the Celestial Kingdom will be chock full of Christians who didn't live this life as Mormons. I believe that with all my heart.

No, Christians who didn't live this life as Mormons will have the opportunity to abandon their God and the clear teachings of the Bible in the Spirit world/prison according to your leaders. No, thanks.

My God is my God forever! My God is just and fair.

Love,

Grandma

[dberrie2000]

Do Christians spend eternity with God?

What is your definition of "Christian"?

[Saxon]

Please....... That is nothing more than equivocation to try and save your failed theology. At least the TULIP people will admit in the open that in order for Faith Alone to work, "Once Saved Always Saved" would also have to be true, otherwise the whole lie is exposed.

Look it's very simple...

Abandoning faith = an action that effects salvation
An action = a work
Ergo... You believe a work can effect one's salvation.

Not so. I have made a valid request. “Don't just tell me about my contradictions, show me my contradictions. Where have I ever stated that "salvation can be decided by their works"?”

Not being a “TULIP people” (Calvinist) that has noting to do with what I believe. You can insert all the rhetoric you want; it changes nothing. There is no works required to be saved. Salvation is by the grace of God, not of works.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.




This is where you want to own both sides which is impossible. If you note, I said that you believe that good works have nothing to do with salvation; however you also believe that bad works [abondoning own's faith] can effect your salvation.

I have said that good works have nothing to do with GAINING salvation. Ephesians 2:10 makes it clear that after you are created in Christ Jesus, there are works that God has ordained that we should walk in them (do them). If you choose to ignore the works that you were created in Christ Jesus to do you are abandoning the faith. It is clearly not a matter of DOING a “bad” work but rather not doing good works that God has created you in Christ Jesus to do.




This means you place all the Power of salvation in Bad works, but say there is no power in Good Works.

Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who subs***ute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who subs***ute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

Not at all; this means that I place the power of God alone in salvation. Works have nothing to do with gaining salvation.




Really??? Orthodox Christianity make up 65% of those who call themselves Christian. They believe works such as water baptism are essential to salvation, so much so that they baptize babies who have No Faith.
Ironically Mormons are in the middle, with Faith Aloners on one side and Othodox Christianity on the other.
Of the remaining 1/3 of Christianity only a third of those believe in true Faith Alone making only 9%-12% of believers in Christianity believing that salvation is not dependent on works of any kind (good or bad)

Really! All those that “call” themselves Christians are not necessarily Christians because they have called themselves Christians. You can put a mouse in a cookie jar, but that doesn’t make the mouse a cookie. Being a Christian isn’t determined by a vote or statistics.




I like these scriptures and agree 100% with them.

Of course you do. The problem is that in “Mormon speak” they don’t mean the same as what the Bible means.

To do something to gain salvation is to try to get salvation because you are owed it, a payment of a debt. Ephesians 2:8 says that it is by grace. Ephesians 2:9 says that it is NOT of works. You do not believe Romans 4:4 or Romans 11:6 at all.


Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

[Grandma]

...All those that “call” themselves Christians are not necessarily Christians because they have called themselves Christians...

That's what I've told them.

[theway]

Not so. I have made a valid request. “Don't just tell me about my contradictions, show me my contradictions. Where have I ever stated that "salvation can be decided by their works"?”I just did. You can not say works do not deside one's salvation, and then in the next statement tell us salvation can be lost because of a work we did. If works have nothing to do with our salvation, then that means both good works and bad works.


Not being a “TULIP people” (Calvinist) that has noting to do with what I believe. You can insert all the rhetoric you want; it changes nothing. There is no works required to be saved. Salvation is by the grace of God, not of works.I agree with what you said.... That is why your statement is nothing more than a useless pla***ude. The devil is in the details, and every time you try to reconcile your beliefs with the Bible the contradictions and paradoxes of your beliefs are exposed.


I have said that good works have nothing to do with GAINING salvation. Ephesians 2:10 makes it clear that after you are created in Christ Jesus, there are works that God has ordained that we should walk in them (do them). If you choose to ignore the works that you were created in Christ Jesus to do you are abandoning the faith. It is clearly not a matter of DOING a “bad” work but rather not doing good works that God has created you in Christ Jesus to do.See there... You are contradicting yourself again, or should I say you have created a circular logic fallacy or paradox.
You say...

Faith Alone = Salvation from bad works
Bad Works = Losing your salvation
Losing your salvation = abandoning your faith
Abandoning your faith = No Works
No works = Faith Alone
<back to the top and repeat>

To put it simply you believe

We are saved from bad works by not going any good works???

Do you now see how silly that sounds?



Not at all; this means that I place the power of God alone in salvation. Works have nothing to do with gaining salvation.That's what I said.
You believe that God does it all when it comes to salvation, because His Will is to save man and man can not save themselves Because it is not the will of man to be saved. Yet man has power over God's Will and His work by being able to unsave himself.
Therefore when your beliefs are fleshed out, you are saying that man's will has greater power than God's Will???





Really! All those that “call” themselves Christians are not necessarily Christians because they have called themselves Christians. You can put a mouse in a cookie jar, but that doesn’t make the mouse a cookie. Being a Christian isn’t determined by a vote or statistics.Meaningless "No true Scotsman fallacy that doesn't sway anybody.



Of course you do. The problem is that in “Mormon speak” they don’t mean the same as what the Bible means.
Exactly my point.... This is why it is meaningless when you guys post scripture without and explanation of where you got your interpretation from, other than "because I read it in the Bible"

[Saxon]

I have said that good works have nothing to do with GAINING salvation. Comment on what I said, not on what you think I said.


Faith Alone = Salvation from bad works
Bad Works = Losing your salvation
Losing your salvation = abandoning your faith
Abandoning your faith = No Works
No works = Faith Alone

This is your own imaginings, nothing close to what I have said.



That's what I said.
You believe that God does it all when it comes to salvation, because His Will is to save man and man can not save themselves Because it is not the will of man to be saved. Yet man has power over God's Will and His work by being able to unsave himself.
Therefore when your beliefs are fleshed out, you are saying that man's will has greater power than God's Will???

You have been listening to too many Calvinists. That isn't close to what I believe. Try again.



That's what I said.
You believe that God does it all when it comes to salvation, because His Will is to save man and man can not save themselves Because it is not the will of man to be saved. Yet man has power over God's Will and His work by being able to unsave himself.
Therefore when your beliefs are fleshed out, you are saying that man's will has greater power than God's Will???

You would make a good Calvinist with that kind of reasoning. Let's face it you don't pay attention to what I am saying.



Exactly my point.... This is why it is meaningless when you guys post scripture without and explanation of where you got your interpretation from, other than "because I read it in the Bible"

I usually try to explain but you choose to ignore what I say and go on to something different.

[Saxon]

I thought that you put me on your ignore list?? :confused:

[Grandma]

I thought that you put me on your ignore list?? :confused:

At that time I didn't know about the settings.

[alanmolstad]

At that time I didn't know about the settings.
The IGNORE setting is harder to find than I would have liked.
And when the forum is reset you may have to return to it and reenter the names.

But that actually helps me remember why some clowns are on my IGNORE list.

[Saxon]

You should have asked me. Anyhow, happy ignoring. :) :cool:

[theway]

I have said that good works have nothing to do with GAINING salvation. Comment on what I said, not on what you think I said.

This is your own imaginings, nothing close to what I have said.

You have been listening to too many Calvinists. That isn't close to what I believe. Try again.

You would make a good Calvinist with that kind of reasoning. Let's face it you don't pay attention to what I am saying.

I usually try to explain but you choose to ignore what I say and go on to something different.You say I do not understand you, yet you do not explain yourself.... Can I then be faulted for not understanding you?

Let's just start with this one statement of mine that you left out.


"You believe we are saved from our bad works by not doing any good works."

Now please explain in your own words, why you think my statement is wrong?
(I am not asking you to "prove" me wrong, because we all know that goes nowhere; but just to explain exactly what's wrong with my statement)

[Saxon]

Now please explain in your own words, why you think my statement is wrong?
(I am not asking you to "prove" me wrong, because we all know that goes nowhere; but just to explain exactly what's wrong with my statement)


"You believe we are saved from our bad works by not doing any good works."

You are wrong because I do not believe what you have said I believe. It is that simple.



You say I do not understand you, yet you do not explain yourself.... Can I then be faulted for not understanding you?

What is there to explain? I have said that good works have nothing to do with GAINING salvation. If you can't understand that then you should go back to school.

[theway]

You are wrong because I do not believe what you have said I believe. It is that simple.
So basically your answer is "Nuh-uh!".

Well to that I say.... "Tis-so!".

So in lieu of anything that explains how I am wrong, refutes what I have summed up, or has caused me to look elsewhere for an alternative understanding about your beliefs, (which were based from your own statements here)... My conclusion of your beliefs stands as true.

"You believe we are saved from our bad works by not doing any good works."

[Saxon]

Eternal: a. That always has existed and will exist, unchanging. (The Concise Oxford Dictionary)

Synonyms: Abiding, Ceaseless, Constant, Deathless, Endless, Everlasting, Immortal, Infinite, Interminable, Never-ending, Perpetual, Timeless, Unceasing, Undying, Unending, Without End.

I John 5:11-12. 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Where can you find Eternal life?

God has given to us eternal life. Not sold, or traded, Eternal life is given. The only thing that humanity has to accomplish is to be a successful receiver in the "gift transaction". The one who has the legal ownership of the said gift can only give the gift. A gift is free to the receiver or it would cease being a gift. The receiver cannot earn a gift because it would then become a wage. The receiver cannot pay for a gift because it would then become a purchase. Given freely and received freely is the only way the gift can remain a gift. Displayed, used or consumed, it is necessary to use a gift in order for the receiver to have an effect or pleasure from the gift. Some gifts last a short time while others for many years. Eternal life is one of those gifts that can give us joy for...well forever. The Father has this gift for us, safe, in Jesus.

The only requirement is that we go to Jesus and abide in him and the gift of eternal life is ours. The most commonly heard objection is that we are now obligated to enter Christ to receive the gift. Is not that doing something for the gift? At first, this sounds like works. But, if you lived in Halifax, Nova Scotia and were given a gift of land in Regina, Saskatchewan and you had to go to Regina in order to posses your land, is it any less a gift?

Eternal life resides in Christ because he is eternal. He is from everlasting to everlasting. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last. Eternal life resides in humans while we are in Christ, because outside of Christ is only death. The gift of eternal life is available to all that have and will come into the world. (I John 2:2) And he is the propitiation (appeasement) for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Why did Adam and Eve fall? After all, they were "very good"; sin free, living in a fresh New World. (Gen Chapters 1&2) They were created to live forever (eternal life). Their creator gave them eternal life directly. Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

(Gen 2:16-17) 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Gen 2:16-17 is a choice set before Adam. Adam's mind was free of corruption and he understood God clearly, he did seek for God in the evening and he was pure and good. Adam communed with God face to face. Therefore, this really was a choice set before Adam. Adam would never die if he would not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Adam had eternal life.

Would Adam forfeit eternal life? Adam chose, Adam ate and Adam died.

Was predestination the cause of Adam's sin? Did Adam, of his own free will choose the path of sin? If it was predestination, fate caused Adam to fall. God was responsible for sin entering the world. Romans 5:12 says it was by one man that sin entered the world, so God did not predestine the fall. It was Adam's fault. How could that happen? Adam was deceived! No! ITim 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, But the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Adam totally disobeyed, turning his back on his creator. Adam did what he wanted to do with no regard for what God wanted. From the glory of eternal life, Adam slithered to the depths of eternal death, and at that point without remedy. Once in the garden always in the garden, I think not.

Think about this, from light to darkness, life to death in less than a heartbeat. Adam knew that something had happened but he had no idea of the seriousness of the situation. He was so ignorant of it that he even had the impudence to try to excuse himself of a self determined disregard for what God had clearly told him (Gen 2:16-17). The human race was now on the road to death and destruction.

With this turn of events, did eternal life cease to exist? God forbid. I John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rom 8:38-39 is true as we saw from Adam's experience; nothing shall be able to separate us from the love of God. Adam walked away from what God had given him and even then God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. The love God has for us stands forever unfailing.

(I Cor. 10: 11-12) 11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.


(Gen 2:16-17) 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Adam ate, Adam died and Adam slithered to the depths of eternal death. When Adam sinned, he died instantly. (Gen 2:17 for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.) His spirit was dead but his body was still alive.

I Cor 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

I Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

[Saxon]

Man is a trinity, spirit soul and body. (I Thess 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.). The soul is the conscience part of the human being. (Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.) The soul gathers information and then makes decisions and initiates actions; there are two sources of input to the soul; the body and the human spirit. The body is of the earth and communicates earthly information to the soul through the five senses, sight, smell, hearing, taste and touch. God gives the spirit for the express purpose of communicating with him. God is Spirit and the human spirit is required to communicate with Spirit.

Why is it that the natural man cannot receive from the Spirit of God? …We are all in sin and spiritually dead prior to salvation. What is the remedy?

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

To be born again is speaking of a second birth. The first birth is to be born of water (born of the flesh), the birth of the body. The second birth is to be born of the Spirit (John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.), to make your spirit alive so the connection between God (Spirit) and the soul can be established. When a man is born again, born of the spirit then the spiritual man can receive the things of the Spirit of God.


Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

John 3:7 is a clear statement that we MUST be born again, It is not a must to own a car. It is not a must to own a house. It is not a must to get married. You name it and it is not a must, except to be born again. With this concept from Scripture, it is imperative that a person be born again.

What does born again mean? Nicodemus wanted to know if he could enter his mother's womb, and be born a second time. Born again is a second birth, hence “Born Again”

Born of water is Born of the flesh; The first birth born of the Spirit is the second birth.

Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Born again speaks of coming into the church, Eph. 5:26 speaks of something happening to the church.

If you are not born again you are not part of the church and Eph. 5:26 is of no effect to those outside the church

Born again, being part of the church, Eph. 5:26 is in effect to those inside the church

Joh 3:5 Born of water is not related to water or word in Eph. 5:26. Born again is to become part of the Church. Eph. 5:26 is a cleansing of the church, To clean a sinner blood is required.


Joh 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8 The wind ****eth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

The concept that this p***age is affirming water baptism as a means of salvation is pure ***umption. Nicodemus understood it as a conversation about birth. (See John 3:4) The text does not mention baptism. The problem with some is as soon as they see water mentioned anywhere near salvation they stop reading and start to ***ume.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

This is the parallel:
John 3:5 born of water equates to John 3:6 born of the flesh.
John 3:5 born of the Spirit equates to John 3:6 is spirit

Born of water is to be born of the flesh. This is the first birth. (Water surrounds the fetus before birth) Born of the Spirit is the second birth, (born again) spiritually dead to spiritually alive.

What is being born again mean? Notice what Nicodemus said, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?” He knew what being born of water was, the first birth or born of the flesh. (Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh) A second birth is another term use to describe born again; Two births are being referred to, (1) Natural birth, (2) Spiritual birth. Without the first birth there is no need of a second birth and no entrance to heaven.

Gen 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the Garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Why do we need a second birth? Adam, a perfect man, spoke to God and God spoke to him. Adam was alive in his spirit as well as alive in his body. When Adam sinned, he died instantly. (Gen 2:17 for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.) His spirit was dead but his body was still alive. We are all in sin and spiritually dead prior to salvation. To enter the kingdom of God we need to be born again. We need to be born of the spirit.

After our natural birth, we are all in need of being born again; the human spirit needs to be given birth.

[Saxon]

The Holy Spirit is active in all parts of the human experience. While the soul is lost in sin the Holy Spirit is at work in our lives drawing us to Christ. When the soul finally comes to the point in life that a conscious decision for Christ is made the Holy Spirit is there to perform a transforming work. As a believer the Holy Spirit guides the soul through the Christian experience.

The Holy Spirit is an essential participant in the salvation of any believer. When the soul comes to the razors edge the Holy Spirit is there to make the transformation from lost to saved, from Adam to Christ. There are two major aspects to the transforming work of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit dwelling in the believer and the Spirit placing the new believer into the body of Christ.

Both these actions are written about in I Corinthians 12:13. The first portion of the transformation that is mentioned is the Spirit baptizes the new believer into the body of Christ. Do not let the word “baptize” throw you off.

The English meaning has a different slant to it when it is compared with the Greek word that it is derived from. The Oxford Dictionary defines baptize as to administer baptism. The Oxford Dictionary defines baptism as a symbolic admission to the Christian Church with water. Name giving can also be a part of the English term.

Strongs Exhaustive Concordance Greek Dictionary defines word number 907 as follows
baptizo {bap-tid'-zo}
1) to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk) 2) to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe 3) to overwhelm

The Greek term baptizo has many ways it can be used as seen in the definition above. For our purpose we will use “to immerse”. When we witness a person being baptized we see the individual immersed into water. This is the vision and thought that goes through our mind when we hear the word baptize. In I Corinthians 12:13 the believer is immersed into the body of Christ. This is the action of the Holy Spirit that puts the new believer “in Christ”, not water.

The second portion of the transformation that is mentioned is the new believer drinking the Spirit in, a nice way of saying that the Holy Spirit is now dwelling in you. (See Romans 8:9, I Corinthians 3:16) Both of these actions of the Holy Spirit happen concurrently. From this point we do not get any more saved, guided by the Holy Spirit we move on to maturity.

[theway]

The Holy Spirit is active in all parts of the human experience. While the soul is lost in sin the Holy Spirit is at work in our lives drawing us to Christ. When the soul finally comes to the point in life that a conscious decision for Christ is made the Holy Spirit is there to perform a transforming work. As a believer the Holy Spirit guides the soul through the Christian experience.

The Holy Spirit is an essential participant in the salvation of any believer. When the soul comes to the razors edge the Holy Spirit is there to make the transformation from lost to saved, from Adam to Christ. There are two major aspects to the transforming work of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit dwelling in the believer and the Spirit placing the new believer into the body of Christ.

Both these actions are written about in I Corinthians 12:13. The first portion of the transformation that is mentioned is the Spirit baptizes the new believer into the body of Christ. Do not let the word “baptize” throw you off.

The English meaning has a different slant to it when it is compared with the Greek word that it is derived from. The Oxford Dictionary defines baptize as to administer baptism. The Oxford Dictionary defines baptism as a symbolic admission to the Christian Church with water. Name giving can also be a part of the English term.

Strongs Exhaustive Concordance Greek Dictionary defines word number 907 as follows
baptizo {bap-tid'-zo}
1) to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk) 2) to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe 3) to overwhelm

The Greek term baptizo has many ways it can be used as seen in the definition above. For our purpose we will use “to immerse”. When we witness a person being baptized we see the individual immersed into water. This is the vision and thought that goes through our mind when we hear the word baptize. In I Corinthians 12:13 the believer is immersed into the body of Christ. This is the action of the Holy Spirit that puts the new believer “in Christ”, not water.

The second portion of the transformation that is mentioned is the new believer drinking the Spirit in, a nice way of saying that the Holy Spirit is now dwelling in you. (See Romans 8:9, I Corinthians 3:16) Both of these actions of the Holy Spirit happen concurrently. From this point we do not get any more saved, guided by the Holy Spirit we move on to maturity.I don't disagree much with the first part, only to us it is called the "Spirit of Christ" that guides us to Him before we are " Born Again". We also believe the Holy Ghost can come to those that seek Christ before they are Baptized.
Where you differ from the LDS and the also majority of Christinity is that water baptism is not necessary. It was necessary for Christ as He Himself stated in the Bible, it was necessary for those in the Christian Church, as noted by EVERY SINGLE ONE of the Early Christian Fathers, and by everything written about baptism by the Early Church. They even explained exactly what "born of the water" meant, just so there was no mistakes. Any other watering-down (pardon the pun) of baptism is only a modern interpretation, this "spiritual only water baptism" is not supported by the Bible, the early Church, or even the majority of Christianity today. Once again, you are the one in the heretical minority. So I am at a loss as to why you are here trying to sell it to Mormons when you can't even get your own to buy into it?

[Saxon]

I don't disagree much with the first part, only to us it is called the "Spirit of Christ" that guides us to Him before we are " Born Again". We also believe the Holy Ghost can come to those that seek Christ before they are Baptized.

The Spirit of Christ is another term for the Holy Spirit. They are one and the same.




Where you differ from the LDS and the also majority of Christinity is that water baptism is not necessary. It was necessary for Christ as He Himself stated in the Bible, it was necessary for those in the Christian Church, as noted by EVERY SINGLE ONE of the Early Christian Fathers, and by everything written about baptism by the Early Church. They even explained exactly what "born of the water" meant, just so there was no mistakes. Any other watering-down (pardon the pun) of baptism is only a modern interpretation, this "spiritual only water baptism" is not supported by the Bible, the early Church, or even the majority of Christianity today. Once again, you are the one in the heretical minority. So I am at a loss as to why you are here trying to sell it to Mormons when you can't even get your own to buy into it?

Water baptism is not for the unsaved. Jesus was sinless but submitted to water baptism. The eunuch was baptized only after he confessed Jesus is the Son of God. (See Acts 8:35 to 37) A person is saved when the believe in Jesus.

The early Church fathers were not the inspired writers of the Bible. There opinion is just that, an opinion. Baptism and born of water and of the Spirit is not water baptism. Tell me you idea of what you believe born of water is.

"Spiritual only water baptism", is what?

I am not trying to sell Mormons anything; it is a free gift if you will receive it. It is your privilege to disagree.

As far as “my own” goes, the ***embly that I attend do agree with me, and I with them .



Acts 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

[theway]

The Spirit of Christ is another term for the Holy Spirit. They are one and the same.

Water baptism is not for the unsaved. Jesus was sinless but submitted to water baptism. The eunuch was baptized only after he confessed Jesus is the Son of God. (See Acts 8:35 to 37) A person is saved when the believe in Jesus.

The early Church fathers were not the inspired writers of the Bible. There opinion is just that, an opinion. Baptism and born of water and of the Spirit is not water baptism. Tell me you idea of what you believe born of water is.

"Spiritual only water baptism", is what?

I am not trying to sell Mormons anything; it is a free gift if you will receive it. It is your privilege to disagree.

As far as “my own” goes, the ***embly that I attend do agree with me, and I with them .



Acts 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.I don't think it helps your case any to insist that all the Early Christian Fathers were in total apostasy and uninspired....???

[Saxon]

I don't think it helps your case any to insist that all the Early Christian Fathers were in total apostasy and uninspired....???

Who said that? I said that they were not inspired. It was meant in the sense that they did not or do not overrule the Bible that was written by men that were inspired to write by the Holy Spirit. The Bible is the truth and everything else is just opinion.

Who said anything about the early church fathers being in total apostasy?

[Christian]

[QUOTE=Grandma;164666]I believe you! Mormons don't all have the same answers. [/quote

Trying to nail down the truth from them IS a little like trying to nail a half-cooked jello to a plate isn't it? The TRUTH doesn't stick with them.

[Christian]

[QUOTE=theway;164691]That's not an answer to a CFR...
What are the names of your friends so that we can ask them what they really said?
Or provide us a published quote from them.
Pardon me, if I don't believe your anecdoltal evidence. Just about everything you have said about the LDS Church so far has been wrong, so I suspect that you are making this bit up also...[/QUOTE

YOU KNOW we are not to post the names of our mormon friends or any other friends in this forum either. It would be an invasion of their privacy.

I don't care what you believe. I am merely pointing out THE TRUTH to lurkers who might be looking at your cult, to demonstrate the many contradictions your cult follows.

Personally, I think you want all the CHRISTIANS to go away so you can try to make your cult look good to the lurkers.

Of course, with us CHRISTIANS pointing out the lies and contradictions and foibles of your manmade religion. . .that IS difficult for you, isn't it? :rolleyes:

[Christian]

Let's see now. . .

Jesus saved me.
Jesus gave me ETERNAL (that means FOREVER) life, not 'just until you mess up life.'
Jesus KEEPS me
Jesus is the GOOD shepherd, so even if I tried to wander off, HE WOULD BRING ME BACK
Jesus PAID THE PRICE for my soul on the cross. . .I was bought with a price.
NOBODY who is not greater than God can snatch me from HIS hand.

That sounds like I am saved FOREVER, no matter what. OSAS.

Or would you prefer I say "Once saved, FOREVER saved?"

[Christian]

Are there any Christians outside the Mormon church? I'm wondering what Mormons believe about that.

Virtually ALL of us CHRISTIANS are OUTSIDE the mormon church. Mormonism is NOT a Christian religion.

[Grandma]

Virtually ALL of us CHRISTIANS are OUTSIDE the mormon church. Mormonism is NOT a Christian religion.

I wanted them to tell us whether or not they consider us Christians or do they think they're the only Christians.

[Christian]

I wanted them to tell us whether or not they consider us Christians or do they think they're the only Christians.

I know. I just thought I'd clarify. . .

[Christian]

I wanted them to tell us whether or not they consider us Christians or do they think they're the only Christians.

I know. I just thought I'd clarify. . .

[Grandma]

Clarify what, that your idea of Christianity is a close minded club? We are Christians and we don't need your approval. As a Mormon I'm a Christian and you have no say in that.

This thread has nothing to do with whether or not you are a Christian. That's off-topic.

[Saxon]

Let's see now. . .

Let’s see now; what have you stated that makes a claim for OSAS?




Jesus saved me.

That does not say that OSAS is true, it just states that Jesus saved you.




Jesus gave me ETERNAL (that means FOREVER) life, not 'just until you mess up life.'

Eternal life resides in Christ (See 1 John 5:11) because he is eternal. He is from everlasting to everlasting. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last. Eternal life resides in humans while we are in Christ, because outside of Christ is only death. Jesus will not leave us; it is us that leave him. (See Hebrews 3:12) It will be the person’s own fault if he or she departs from the living God. Remember that it is impossible to leave where you have never been. You have eternal life as long as you remain in Christ. It is up to you not to wander away like the lost sheep.

Jesus gave you eternal life is no evidence of OSAS.

1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.




Jesus KEEPS me

Jesus keeps you as long as you don’t wander off. The lost sheep was just that; lost. No evidence of OSAS here.




Jesus is the GOOD shepherd, so even if I tried to wander off, HE WOULD BRING ME BACK

If you tried to wander off you wouldn’t need bringing back. You need to actually wander off before you need bringing back. If you are LOST you need to be found before the roaring lion devours you. (See 1 Peter 5:8) No evidence of OSAS here.

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:




Jesus PAID THE PRICE for my soul on the cross. . .I was bought with a price.

The gift of eternal life is available to all that have and will come into the world. (See I John 2:2) If that was support for OSAS then all that ever lived would be saved and we both know that is not true. No evidence of OSAS here.

I John 2:2 And he is the propitiation (appeasement) for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.




NOBODY who is not greater than God can snatch me from HIS hand.

No one snatched you out of his hand when YOU depart from the living God. (See Hebrews 3:12)

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.




That sounds like I am saved FOREVER, no matter what. OSAS.

Or would you prefer I say "Once saved, FOREVER saved?"

That sound like you have been mislead.

[Grandma]

Let's see now. . .

Jesus saved me.
Jesus gave me ETERNAL (that means FOREVER) life, not 'just until you mess up life.'
Jesus KEEPS me
Jesus is the GOOD shepherd, so even if I tried to wander off, HE WOULD BRING ME BACK
Jesus PAID THE PRICE for my soul on the cross. . .I was bought with a price.
NOBODY who is not greater than God can snatch me from HIS hand.

That sounds like I am saved FOREVER, no matter what. OSAS.

Or would you prefer I say "Once saved, FOREVER saved?"



THE GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE

God is omniscient knowing the future of your life. He doesn't give salvation and then take it back. If you've been born again, you can't become unborn. If you came to Christ it was the Father Who brought you to Him.

James 1:17
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

2 Corinthians 9:15
Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift. t

John 6
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 14
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you...

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

2 Corinthians 2
14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place. 15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

[dberrie2000]

Who said that? I said that they were not inspired. It was meant in the sense that they did not or do not overrule the Bible that was written by men that were inspired to write by the Holy Spirit. The Bible is the truth and everything else is just opinion.

Who said anything about the early church fathers being in total apostasy?

Could you tell us how the Early Church Fathers were not inspired--and there not have been an apostasy?


Revelation 19:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

[Saxon]

I said that they were not inspired. It was meant in the sense that they did not or do not overrule the Bible that was written by men that were inspired to write by the Holy Spirit. The Bible is the truth and everything else is just opinion.

There is the reason, it was there all the time!

[Saxon]

God is omniscient knowing the future of your life. He doesn't give salvation and then take it back. If you've been born again, you can't become unborn. If you came to Christ it was the Father Who brought you to Him.

God certainly does not take back salvation. It is the saved that will depart from the living God. (See Hebrews 3:12)

No, you don’t become unborn, you die. The wages of sin is still death. That hasn’t been rescinded yet.

You have not supported OSAS with any of your quoted scripture.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

[dberrie2000]

I said that they were not inspired. It was meant in the sense that they did not or do not overrule the Bible that was written by men that were inspired to write by the Holy Spirit. The Bible is the truth and everything else is just opinion.

There is the reason, it was there all the time!

And again--how could the very men that claimed to have led the church not be inspired? If they were not inspired--then there had been an apostasy.

[Christian]

And again--how could the very men that claimed to have led the church not be inspired? If they were not inspired--then there had been an apostasy.

So you think your local leaders are 'inspired by God? Does that include the mormon bishop who cursed at our mormon neighbors when they asked that their names and the names of their children be removed from the lds roles?

If not, does that mean YOUR religion is in apostasy?

Where has GOD (not joey smith) ever said that local leaders would be 'inspired by God' in CHRIST'S church?

Paul told Timothy:

2 Tim 2:1-3
2 And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.
NKJV

BIBLICAL leaders are not required to be 'prophets' or 'seers' or treasure hunters as joe smith supposedly was.

So it looks like (by YOUR standards at least) that YOUR religion is in apostasy.

[Christian]

Clarify what, that your idea of Christianity is a close minded club? We are Christians and we don't need your approval. As a Mormon I'm a Christian and you have no say in that.

There is NO CHRISTIANITY outside of the 'close minded club' JESUS BUILT. NO room for 'open-minded acceptance' of antiCHRISTIAN teachings. No ****sexual marriages, no popes, no multiple gods, no marrying other men's wives while they are still alive and married to them. NONE of that junk, much of which joe smith professed to believe.

The 'christ' you believe in (if it is the one joe smith invented) is NOT the Jesus Christ described in the Bible.

You may be a 'christian' in the sense of following 'a' christ, but NOT in the sense of following the BIBLICAL Jesus Christ.

[Saxon]

Did you not read my answer???

[dberrie2000]

And again--how could the very men that claimed to have led the church not be inspired? If they were not inspired--then there had been an apostasy.


So it looks like (by YOUR standards at least) that YOUR religion is in apostasy.

Whatever one believes about the LDS church--any church that does not have inspired leaders is not the Church of Jesus Christ.

The Reformation indicated there had been an apostasy.

[dberrie2000]

You may be a 'christian' in the sense of following 'a' christ, but NOT in the sense of following the BIBLICAL Jesus Christ.

What do you find in the Bible--that is not found in the LDS church?

There is one thing for sure--the faith alone can't collate their theology with the Biblical NT:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[Grandma]

So you think your local leaders are 'inspired by God? Does that include the mormon bishop who cursed at our mormon neighbors when they asked that their names and the names of their children be removed from the lds roles?

If not, does that mean YOUR religion is in apostasy?

Where has GOD (not joey smith) ever said that local leaders would be 'inspired by God' in CHRIST'S church?

Paul told Timothy:

2 Tim 2:1-3
2 And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.
NKJV

BIBLICAL leaders are not required to be 'prophets' or 'seers' or treasure hunters as joe smith supposedly was.

So it looks like (by YOUR standards at least) that YOUR religion is in apostasy.

Do Mormons call angry men to be bishops? Why would a bishop get angry? Is he going to be held accountable for what someone else does?

"We believe that men will be punished for their own sins"

[Grandma]

Nope, Mormons don't call anyone to anything. Callings are from Heavenly Father through His leaders.

The Bishop would have to make the phone call thinking that God inspired him to do so. So why do your bishops treat people like dirt? The young missionaries are told to be polite, I think.

[Grandma]

They don't. Every bishop I've had, including those on my mission, have always treated everyone with respect and love. Might wanna check your wording before you say things

I don't care about YOUR bishops. Your church's bishops aren't all alike. NONE of them should ever treat people like dirt.


Love,

Grandma

[Grandma]

Excuse you but YOUR words were "why do your bishops treat people like dirt". So yes, you were talking about the bishops I specifically have and had. Check your wording before you say something. Should anyone treat anyone poorly? No. Does that give you a right to say the bishops of the church in general treat people like dirt? No it does not.

Meaning: Why do Mormon bishops treat people so poorly? Use your head! I don't know childofgod or childofgod's bishops.

Love,

Grandma

[Christian]

berry posted:

What do you find in the Bible--that is not found in the LDS church?

The REAL Jesus Christ, the ONLY begotten (fathered) son of God (not one of many so-called 'spirit-babies' popped out by some goddess on kolob along with billions of other 'spirit-babies' including satan, according to YOUR religion

There is one thing for sure--the faith alone can't collate their theology with the Biblical NT:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. [/QUOTE]

Once again, your ignorance shows. FAITH WORKS. ALL Christians believe that. The Bible says that man is justified by faith, and that if you have faith, you do the works of God.

And what is that?

John 6:29
29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
NKJV


​

[Grandma]

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Excellent!

Love,

Grandma