Mormons are 'christians. . .' they follow 'a' christ.

[Christian]

Not the BIBLICAL Jesus Christ, but 'a' jesus christ. . .a spirit-brother-of-satan 'jesus' that joseph smith invented.

But because they follow SOMEONE or SOMETHING calling itself 'jesus christ,' they are 'by definition' 'christians.'

[theway]

Not the BIBLICAL Jesus Christ, but 'a' jesus christ. . .a spirit-brother-of-satan 'jesus' that joseph smith invented.

But because they follow SOMEONE or SOMETHING calling itself 'jesus christ,' they are 'by definition' 'christians.'I follow the Jesus Christ that is in the Bible, is yours a different Jesus Christ than that???

[chuckt]

I follow the Jesus Christ that is in the Bible, is yours a different Jesus Christ than that???

Who is Jesus to you? I'm not putting you on the spot and you can have a lot of time to answer this question.

[chuckt]

I follow the Jesus Christ that is in the Bible, is yours a different Jesus Christ than that???

Who is Jesus to you? I'm not putting you on the spot and you can have a lot of time to answer this question.

[Phoenix]

Who is Jesus to you? I'm not putting you on the spot and you can have a lot of time to answer this question.

I like Peter's answer to that question when Jesus asked it of him. I agree with Peter.

[Christian]

I follow the Jesus Christ that is in the Bible, is yours a different Jesus Christ than that???

If you are a mormon, YOURS is a different Jesus Christ than that. If you DO follow the Jesus Christ of the Bible, you are NOT a mormon. SIMPLE. . .

joey smith INVENTED mormonism, INVENTED his own 'jesus christ' who is supposedly a 'spirit-brother-of-satan,' but IS NOT THE JESUS CHRIST OF THE BIBLE. If you follow HIS 'jesus' then you are NOT following the Jesus Christ of the Bible. . .you are only giving Him 'lip service' while following joey smith's INVENTIONS.

[Christian]

I like Peter's answer to that question when Jesus asked it of him. I agree with Peter.

WHICH Peter? Peter Pan? Belief in a false christ (a spirit brother of satan) instead of the REAL Christ (the ONLY begotten [fathered]) Son of God means that whatever 'peter' you are talking about must have answered your IMAGINARY jesus. . .

[dberrie2000]

Not the BIBLICAL Jesus Christ, but 'a' jesus christ. .

Would that be this Jesus Christ?

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Why do the faith alone preach a salvation through a faith without works?

What one finds in the Bible--is also found in the LDS church.

[Christian]

I follow the Jesus Christ that is in the Bible, is yours a different Jesus Christ than that???

Are you telling us that you do NOT follow the smith-invented 'christ?'

The BIBLICAL Jesus is the ONLY begotten (fathered) Son of God (John 3:16), not one of the many illegitmate sons of joe smith's invention.

[Christian]

cog posted:


Originally Posted by Christian
If you are a mormon, YOURS is a different Jesus Christ than that. If you DO follow the Jesus Christ of the Bible, you are NOT a mormon. SIMPLE. . .

joey smith INVENTED mormonism, INVENTED his own 'jesus christ' who is supposedly a 'spirit-brother-of-satan,' but IS NOT THE JESUS CHRIST OF THE BIBLE. If you follow HIS 'jesus' then you are NOT following the Jesus Christ of the Bible. . .you are only giving Him 'lip service' while following joey smith's INVENTIONS.

Which means I could say if you believe in the Jesus Christ of the Bible then you cannot be anything but a Mormon.

How stupid is that?

Same logic you're using. I follow the only Jesus Christ there enough has ever been, not some imaginary being taught through the trinity because some people with no real understanding of the scriptures, and no other.

IF you follow joey smith's INVENTED "jesus" then you follow a FALSE christ, one of supposedly MANY 'begotten' (definition, 'FATHERED') spirit babies according to joey smith's religion.

The REAL Jesus (the BIBLICAL Jesus Christ) is God's ONLY begotten (fathered) Son. See John 3:16, then tell us why you consider God to be a liar there.

According to GOD:

Isa 43:10-11
10 "You are My witnesses," says the Lord,
"And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.
11 I, even I, am the Lord,
And besides Me there is no savior.
NKJV

Isa 44:6
6 "Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
'I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.
NKJV

Isa 44:8
8 Do not fear, nor be afraid;
Have I not told you from that time, and declared it?
You are My witnesses.
Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one.'"
NKJV
There are many more, but those three pretty well sum it up. Joey smith's 'gods' of your pgp book of Abraham, chapters 3 and 4 are FALSE GODS. The God of the BIBLE says HE is the ONLY ONE, NONE besides Him exist, HE DOESN'T EVEN KNOW OF ANY OTHER GODS.

Your 'prophet' lied to you.





You don't get to go around saying "You believe in the wrong Jesus" to everyone and act like you follow Jesus.
O course I do. I believe the REAL Jesus. The jesuses of mormonism, christian scientism, and other made-up jesuses ARE the wrong ones.

And since I actually DO follow the REAL Jesus Christ, I SHOULD act like it. And I do.

Talking to you gets nobody anywhere because you're too close minded to believe anyone but blind trinitarians are Christians.

So if we UNDERSTAND that the BIBLE SAYS that the Father is God, Jesus is God, the Holy Spirit is God (and OF COURSE IT DOES SAY THOSE THINGS) AND that there is ONLY ONE GOD ANYWHERE, then we must be 'blind' if we refer to that BIBLICAL CONCEPT as 'trinity?'

SHOW ME BIBLICALLY where I have stated ANY UNTRUTH about the nature of God in the above paragraph. Personally I don't think you can FIND ONE SCRIPTURE that disagrees with ONE WORD OF IT.

You have been lied to by your cult again, it appears. . .

Yes, I AM close-minded. I BELIEVE what God has said in the Bible. I BELIEVE that the Bible is the TRUTH. I don't think it is WRONG to BELIEVE THE TRUTH.

YOU are as close-minded as I am. YOU believe joey smith's fables. YOU believe in the mormon gods and prophets who haven't been able to prophesy since when????About 1911?

You've never done a real study of the scriptures, by real I mean with the Holy Ghost

Only for about 42+ years out of the last 50 years have I had the Holy Ghost teaching me. Prior to that I was NOT a believer.

But the Holy Ghost has made DRASTIC changes in my life. I am not the man I once was, a swearing, angry, short-fused, evil man.

Instead my life is characterized by the FRUIT OF THE HOLY GHOST. If you knew ANY of the folks who knew me before I became a Christian and who know me now, you would know the stupidity of your claim.

If you had, you wouldn't behave the way you do. Being a Biblical Christian that I am, I find you to be a disgrace to Protestants everywhere.

Your unBIBLICAL opinion is noted. But you should be aware that is ALL it is, nothing more.


You even ignore any verse we give from the Bible just because we're mormons.

No, I have not. Please SHOW US ONE SCRIPTURE from the Bible I have ignored (chapter and verse) or ADMIT YOU ARE NOT TELLING THE TRUTH.

You've been proven wrong with every single issue, doctrine, and piece of history on this site. You have embarr***ed yourself and keep inviting the spirit of contention, a spirit from Satan.

Both are totally FALSE CLAIMS. Please SHOW US ONE SINGLE ISSUE OR DOCTRINE I have erred in (CHAPTER AND VERSE IN THE BIBLE, of course) or ADMIT YOU ARE NOT TELLING THE TRUTH. I don't think you can find even ONE that I have been BIBLICALLY wrong in, and I know you are NOT telling the truth.

I challenge you to PUT UP OR ADMIT YOUR FALSEHOODS.

So far you have found NOTHING AT ALL of any "spirit from Satan" in ANY of my posts. What you have seen is what the pharisees and sadducees saw when JESUS and PAUL and others attacked THEIR FALSE TEACHINGS.

But then, neither you nor them should expect to 'feel good' about being proven defrauded by joey smith and satan's minions. . .

[Christian]

Would that be this Jesus Christ?

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Why do the faith alone preach a salvation through a faith without works?

What one finds in the Bible--is also found in the LDS church.


Just enough truth and half-truths to make it "look like" it legitimizes your false religion. There are the same kinds of claims by branch davidians, catholics, and white supremecists. PARTIAL truths to make it 'look like' your cult is from God to those who don't read more than just a little bit of your religion's garbage' The TRUTH is that your cult (like those others) takes SOME of the truth, REDEFINE SOME OF IT, ADD your own garbage, then pretend it is all 'from God.'

Of course the fantasies of joey smith are still nothing more than the fantasies of joey smith. Those who 'believe in' those fantasies will be led to Hell.

[Christian]

I notice they can come up with NO LEGITIMATE ARGUMENT against what I said. . .

[Grandma]

...Yet, we know who we worship...

Do you worship the Holy Spirit?

[Grandma]

We worship He whom we are to worship: the Father. We do so in Jesus Christ's name and by the power of the Holy Ghost.


According to Mormonism, Jesus is God of this world. You should worship Him. According to Mormonism, Jehovah/Jesus said, Thou shalt have no other Gods before me. (Ex. 20:3)


In Christian Love,

Grandma

[Christian]

We've given quotes, statistics from polls showing that Mormons as a whole know more about the Bible than any Protestant, have given verses from scriptures, explained the scriptures given, including the ones you've given, and have overall topped you in every topic thus far. You repeat yourself all the time. Its always "You believe in a false Christ. Your Christ was invented by Smith" blah blah blah. Yet, we know who we worship. We worship the Father through the Jesus Christ of the Bible. You've gone so far as to say the God of the Bible isn't our God even though He, not It, is.


And I have demonstrated that your so-called 'statistics from polls' were not valid at all. You have not given one single scripture that says your 'daddy god who fathers all them 'spirit babies' exists at all, OR that Jesus was only one of MANY 'begotten' (fathered) by the REAL GOD.

The BIBLE refutes you when it says Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD (John 3:16).

Your cult has lied to you, and you 'know' it is telling the truth.

Nobody can convince you of the GODLY truth. . .you prefer the darkness of smith's lies.

BTW, CHRISTIANS have been repeating ourselves for about 2,000 years now. Mormons didn't come close to existing when we began.

[Grandma]

Begotten means offspring. Jesus is literally the offspring of the Father while He is the Father of our spirits. Sorry but we agree with the Bible.
You've demonstrated a poor knowledge, that's it.

Begotten doesn't always mean offspring --- especially in Mormonism.

[MickeyS]

Begotten means offspring. Jesus is literally the offspring of the Father while He is the Father of our spirits. Sorry but we agree with the Bible.
You've demonstrated a poor knowledge, that's it.

Yes, it was my understanding that begotten - meaning to have brought (a child) into existence, and that He was the only begotten in the flesh, meaning He is the ONLY physical being that has an earthly mother and a Heavenly Father in his physical DNA. But God is the Father of all of our spirits. Do they not believe that?? This is fascinating, I had no idea, He's always referred to as Our Father, so...

[Grandma]

Yes it does
be·get
\bi-ˈget, bē-\
verb
: to cause (something) to happen or exist
: to become the father of (someone)
Full Definition
be·got\-ˈgät\ also be·gat\-ˈgat\be·got·ten\-ˈgä-tən\ or be·gotbe·get·ting
transitive verb
1 :to procreate as the father
2 :to produce especially as an effect or outgrowth

It does not always mean offspring.



An outgrowth is something grown out of something else. Jesus Christ is literally the offspring of God. That is what the Bible testifies of. If you don't believe we're all children of God I piety you and you would have no business calling Him Father.

To be born. To beget is to give birth, to procreate, or to call into being. In the scriptures, these words are often used to mean being born of God. Although Jesus Christ is the only child begotten of the Father in mortality, all people may be spiritually begotten of Christ by accepting him, obeying his commandments, and becoming new persons through the power of the Holy Ghost.
Guide to the Scriptures, lds.org

Mosiah 5:7
And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.

Are you the spirit child of Elohim or of Jesus Christ?

Love in Christ,

Grandma

[alanmolstad]

Begotten doesn't always mean offspring --- .
What is taught is that Jesus is "begotten not made"

we know from an example in the Bible that a person can have many children, yet call only one of his children the "Only begotten"...

[Christian]

Begotten means offspring. Jesus is literally the offspring of the Father while He is the Father of our spirits. Sorry but we agree with the Bible.
You've demonstrated a poor knowledge, that's it.

You are wrong once again. You have demonstrated your own self-contradictions.


JESUS is the ONLY begotten Son of God (John 3:16), NOT ONE OF MANY offsprings.

And YOUR 'father god' is supposedly the 'father' of YOUR 'jesus' and YOUR 'satan' spirit babies. Now EXACTLY WHAT PART DO I HAVE WRONG?

[Grandma]

What am I wrong about? Jesus being the only begotten Son of God means He's the only literal, physical, offspring of God. We are not born spiritual orphans. Everyone, Christian and atheist alike, is a child of God. If you think we're born as spiritual orphans then you would have to believe that an infant who p***es away would be doomed to ****ation if not baptized or brought under the trinitarian umbrella. This belief would put you on par with catholicism.
You keep criticizing the church of the Lamb to no avail. My faith in God is stronger than your influence which comes from Lucifer. The umbrella I'm under is the divine protection given by Christ, through the scriptures and prayer, that no amount of false doctrines or criticisms can pierce.

There are many begotten sons.

D&C 76
24 That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.

Mosiah 5
7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[MickeyS]

There are many begotten sons.

D&C 76
24 That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.

Mosiah 5
7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.

In Christian Love,

Grandma



There are times when the word "begotten" is used symbolically when referring to Christ

Mosiah 5:7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.

In this case, like I noted before when referring to Jesus Christ as "Father" we are "spiritually begotten" meaning you are his "spiritual children" unto his gospel and "growing up" to be like him, through faith and baptism.


So we are literally begotten spirits of God
Symbolically begotten sons & daughters of Jesus Christ through faith and covenants

But Christ is still the ONLY begotten son of God in the flesh on this earth. The ONLY mortal being with a Heavenly Father and a mortal mother.

[Christian]

cog posted:

What am I wrong about? Jesus being the only begotten Son of God means He's the only literal, physical, offspring of God.

When it says 'His ONLY begotten Son. . .' the word 'begotten' simply means 'fathered.' Nothing about 'physical' at all. Just 'fathered or 'begotten''

We are not born spiritual orphans. Everyone, Christian and atheist alike, is a child of God.

Not true. GOD said:

John 8:44
44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
NKJV

It looks like you make your stuff up as you go, and it CONFLICTS with what GOD has already revealed. NON-Christians are NOT children of God. IF THEY WERE, they would NOT have to be ADOPTED into Christ's family when we became CHRISTIANS. But JESUS BOUGHT US. HE paid the price. No such payment would have been required if we had already been 'spirit children' of God.

joey smith lied to you.


If you think we're born as spiritual orphans then you would have to believe that an infant who p***es away would be doomed to ****ation if not baptized or brought under the trinitarian umbrella. This belief would put you on par with catholicism.
Of course we CHRISTIANS don't believe that nonsense, so you are simply spitting in the wind. . . with NOTHING FROM SCRIPTURE to support you. . . as usual.

You keep criticizing the church of the Lamb to no avail.

I have NEVER ONCE criticized CHRIST'S church. I HAVE criticized MANY of your cults however.

I <snipped> your personal attack. It had no substance.

[MickeyS]

cog posted:

What am I wrong about? Jesus being the only begotten Son of God means He's the only literal, physical, offspring of God.

When it says 'His ONLY begotten Son. . .' the word 'begotten' simply means 'fathered.' Nothing about 'physical' at all. Just 'fathered or 'begotten''

We are not born spiritual orphans. Everyone, Christian and atheist alike, is a child of God.

t looks like you make your stuff up as you go, and it CONFLICTS with what GOD has already revealed. NON-Christians are NOT children of God. IF THEY WERE, they would NOT have to be ADOPTED into Christ's family when we became CHRISTIANS. But JESUS BOUGHT US. HE paid the price. No such payment would have been required if we had already been 'spirit children' of God.

If you think we're born as spiritual orphans then you would have to believe that an infant who p***es away would be doomed to ****ation if not baptized or brought under the trinitarian umbrella. This belief would put you on par with catholicism.
Of course we CHRISTIANS don't believe that nonsense, so you are simply spitting in the wind. . . with NOTHING FROM SCRIPTURE to support you. . . as usual.

The scriptures use different terms to describe how we are sons & daughters of God & Jesus Christ

We are all literal spirit children of Heavenly Father
Acts 17:29 - We are offspring of God
Hebrews 12:9 - Be in subjection unto the Father of spirits

We are "adopted" children born again through the Atonement
John 1:12 - As many as received himgave he power to become the sons of God

I know it can be confusing, but the Bible does use words in multiple ways .... For example

The word "glory"
Splendor - Matthew 6:29 "....Solomon in all his glory..."
Praise - Acts 12:23 "...he did not give God the glory..."
Brightness - 2Corinthians 3:7 "the glory of Moses's face"
Heaven - 1Timothy 3:16 "...taken up in glory..."

As for the last comment above from you, I don't see how you could believe any other way if you think we can only be adopted children of God through faith in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and that only the sons and daughters of God will live with Him again. By that, your logic would dictate that children not brought unto the Gospel cannot live with God, or is there a concession made in that case? If so, up to what age do children get a p***?

I snipped your scripture from John as I did not see the relevance to the conversation, unless you were noting another example of when the word "father" is used....very good, I see you are aware of multiple uses for individual words :)

[Christian]

mickey posted:

The scriptures use different terms to describe how we are sons & daughters of God & Jesus Christ

We are all literal spirit children of Heavenly Father
Acts 17:29 - We are offspring of God

Adopted, of course. . .He is CLEARLY NOT TALKING about 'spiritual babies, popped out of goddesses impregnated by your 'daddy-god'

Hebrews 12:9 - Be in subjection unto the Father of spirits

We are "adopted" children born again through the Atonement
John 1:12 - As many as received him gave he power to become the sons of God

Which OF COURSE indicates that they are GIVEN THE POWER TO BECOME the sons of God, THEY AREN'T THAT WAY BEFORE THEN. The Atonement of JESUS CHRIST (THE REAL ONE) paid for them

I know it can be confusing, but the Bible does use words in multiple ways .... For example

The word "glory"
Splendor - Matthew 6:29 "....Solomon in all his glory..."
Praise - Acts 12:23 "...he did not give God the glory..."
Brightness - 2Corinthians 3:7 "the glory of Moses's face"
Heaven - 1Timothy 3:16 "...taken up in glory..."

Sorry, but your 1 Timothy p***age says no such thing. IT says:

1 Tim 3:16
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:


God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
NKJV

Jesus was received up in glory alright, but NOT "INTO" glory. He was taken up in SPLENDER, and BEAUTY (Glory)

NOT up into 'exaltation' places or into 'one of three places you could go when you die.'

Joey smith made all THAT junk up out of the air.

Your claim that it is referring to heaven is bogus.

As for the last comment above from you, I don't see how you could believe any other way if you think we can only be adopted children of God through faith in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and that only the sons and daughters of God will live with Him again.

I'm glad you agree with my understanding.

By that, your logic would dictate that children not brought unto the Gospel cannot live with God, or is there a concession made in that case? If so, up to what age do children get a p***?

God has given NO 'age of consent,' thus when Jesus said 'of such is the kingdom of heaven' we don't know when in a child's life that ceases to be. Your theory about my logic is flawed, to say the least

[MickeyS]

mickey posted:

The scriptures use different terms to describe how we are sons & daughters of God & Jesus Christ

We are all literal spirit children of Heavenly Father
Acts 17:29 - We are offspring of God

Adopted, of course. . .He is CLEARLY NOT TALKING about 'spiritual babies

It's actually NOT clear since that's not what offspring means. The remainder of your comment was [snipped] due to unnecessary language (there are much more mature ways to present your ideas)

So wait a minute...first you told childofgod that "begotten" doesn't mean "offspring", now you're saying "offspring" doesn't mean "offspring" And from your comments below, if you don't believe words or concepts have multiple meanings in the Bible, then how can you adopt your own offspring?


Hebrews 12:9 - Be in subjection unto the Father of spirits

We are "adopted" children born again through the Atonement
John 1:12 - As many as received him gave he power to become the sons of God

Which OF COURSE indicates that they are GIVEN THE POWER TO BECOME the sons of God, THEY AREN'T THAT WAY BEFORE THEN. The Atonement of JESUS CHRIST (THE REAL ONE) paid for them

But they are



I know it can be confusing, but the Bible does use words in multiple ways .... For example

The word "glory"
Splendor - Matthew 6:29 "....Solomon in all his glory..."
Praise - Acts 12:23 "...he did not give God the glory..."
Brightness - 2Corinthians 3:7 "the glory of Moses's face"
Heaven - 1Timothy 3:16 "...taken up in glory..."

Sorry, but your 1 Timothy p***age says no such thing. IT says:

1 Tim 3:16
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:


God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
NKJV

Jesus was received up in glory alright, but NOT "INTO" glory. He was taken up in SPLENDER, and BEAUTY (Glory)
Your claim that it is referring to heaven is bogus.

It's odd that you don't agree with the above p***age and meaning as I found the information on an Evangelical Christian Bible site specifically so you could understand what I was saying. There is another example that says words can only have one meaning within the context being presented at that time. That applies here as well.

http://www.simplybible.com/f951.htm
The remainder of your comment was [snipped] because it had nothing to do with the above interpretation

So, you don't believe LDS are Christian, you don't believe Catholics are Christian, is it also your belief that Evangelists aren't Christian, or is there another reason you don't believe this interpretation?


As for the last comment above from you, I don't see how you could believe any other way if you think we can only be adopted children of God through faith in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and that only the sons and daughters of God will live with Him again.

I'm glad you agree with my understanding.

By that, your logic would dictate that children not brought unto the Gospel cannot live with God, or is there a concession made in that case? If so, up to what age do children get a p***?

Your theory about my logic is flawed to say the least.

"or is there a concession made in that case?
No, my theory is sound



God has given NO 'age of consent,' thus when Jesus said 'of such is the kingdom of heaven' we don't know when in a child's life that ceases to be.

Thank you for sharing what you believe. We believe children will live again with God as well. It's nice to have common ground :)

[Christian]

mickey posted:


mickey posted:

The scriptures use different terms to describe how we are sons & daughters of God & Jesus Christ

We are all literal spirit children of Heavenly Father
Acts 17:29 - We are offspring of God

Adopted, of course. . .He is CLEARLY NOT TALKING about 'spiritual babies

It's actually NOT clear since that's not what offspring means. The remainder of your comment was [snipped]

Just as I <snipped> the remainder of YOUR comment for the same reason.

The p***age:

Acts 17:23-31
Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring.' 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given ***urance of this to all by raising Him from the dea
NKJV

Please SHOW US IN THE P***AGE where it SAYS ONE WORD ABOUT SPIRITUAL BABIES in any 'pre-existance. . .' Sorry, but it simply IS NOT THERE.

So wait a minute...first you told childofgod that "begotten" doesn't mean "offspring", now you're saying "offspring" doesn't mean "offspring"

The word 'beget' means "to Father." When a man begets a child, he FATHERS a child. Jesus is the ONLY 'FATHERED' child of God. The rest of us are adopted through Jesus Christ.

"offspring" can mean mutiple things. It simply means 'child of.' It does NOT TELL how the child BECAME a child of God. THAT happened when we received Jesus Christ as our Savior and Lord.
John 1:12-13
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
NKJV

IF they had ever been 'fathered' by God as so-called 'spirit-babies,' that sentence would make NO SENSE AT ALL.

And from your comments below, if you don't believe words or concepts have multiple meanings in the Bible, then how can you adopt your own offspring?

Hebrews 12:9 - Be in subjection unto the Father of spirits


We are "adopted" children born again through the Atonement
John 1:12 - As many as received him gave he power to become the sons of God

Which OF COURSE indicates that they are GIVEN THE POWER TO BECOME the sons of God, THEY AREN'T THAT WAY BEFORE THEN. The Atonement of JESUS CHRIST (THE REAL ONE) paid for them


That is my point. . .You CANNOT 'adopt' your own children.

And prior to your BECOMING a child of God????

John 8:44-45
44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
NKJV


We CHRISTIANS had to be bought because we didn't already belong to Jesus.

1 Cor 6:19-20
19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's.
NKJV

1 Cor 7:22-24
22 For he who is called in the Lord while a slave is the Lord's freedman. Likewise he who is called while free is Christ's slave. 23 You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men. 24 Brethren, let each one remain with God in that state in which he was called.
NKJV




It's odd that you don't agree with the above p***age and meaning as I found the information on an Evangelical Christian Bible site specifically so you could understand what I was saying. There is another example that says words can only have one meaning within the context being presented at that time. That applies here as well.

So, you don't believe LDS are Christian, you don't believe Catholics are Christian, is it also your belief that Evangelists aren't Christian, or is there another reason you don't believe this interpretation?

Catholics tell you to pray to non-gods. Mormons follow a god who used to be a man, one of MANY men they claim have become gods. The BIBLE (the WORD OF GOD) contradicts BOTH of your stands. I don't think you even know what an evangelist is. To my knowledge, there is no 'religious organization' called that. Do you make this stuff up as you go?


As for the last comment above from you, I don't see how you could believe any other way if you think we can only be adopted children of God through faith in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and that only the sons and daughters of God will live with Him again.

I'm glad you agree with my understanding.

By that, your logic would dictate that children not brought unto the Gospel cannot live with God, or is there a concession made in that case? If so, up to what age do children get a p***?

Your theory about my logic is flawed to say the least.

"or is there a concession made in that case?
No, my theory is sound.

God has not spoken about any 'age of accountability.' Jesus said of children and infants 'of such is the kingdom of heaven. That is good enough for me. I believe Him. You may make anything up YOU WANT TO BELIEVE if you wish.

[MickeyS]

mickey posted:



It's actually NOT clear since that's not what offspring means. The remainder of your comment was [snipped]

Just as I <snipped> the remainder of YOUR comment for the same reason.

The p***age:

Acts 17:23-31
Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring.' 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given ***urance of this to all by raising Him from the dea
NKJV

Please SHOW US IN THE P***AGE where it SAYS ONE WORD ABOUT SPIRITUAL BABIES in any 'pre-existance. . .' Sorry, but it simply IS NOT THERE.

So wait a minute...first you told childofgod that "begotten" doesn't mean "offspring", now you're saying "offspring" doesn't mean "offspring"

The word 'beget' means "to Father." When a man begets a child, he FATHERS a child. Jesus is the ONLY 'FATHERED' child of God. The rest of us are adopted through Jesus Christ.

"offspring" can mean mutiple things. It simply means 'child of.' It does NOT TELL how the child BECAME a child of God. THAT happened when we received Jesus Christ as our Savior and Lord.
John 1:12-13
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
NKJV

IF they had ever been 'fathered' by God as so-called 'spirit-babies,' that sentence would make NO SENSE AT ALL.

And from your comments below, if you don't believe words or concepts have multiple meanings in the Bible, then how can you adopt your own offspring?

Hebrews 12:9 - Be in subjection unto the Father of spirits



That is my point. . .You CANNOT 'adopt' your own children.

And prior to your BECOMING a child of God????

John 8:44-45
44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
NKJV


We CHRISTIANS had to be bought because we didn't already belong to Jesus.

1 Cor 6:19-20
19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and[B] you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's.
NKJV

1 Cor 7:22-24
22 For he who is called in the Lord while a slave is the Lord's freedman. Likewise he who is called while free is Christ's slave. 23 You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men. 24 Brethren, let each one remain with God in that state in which he was called.
NKJV




It's odd that you don't agree with the above p***age and meaning as I found the information on an Evangelical Christian Bible site specifically so you could understand what I was saying. There is another example that says words can only have one meaning within the context being presented at that time. That applies here as well.

So, you don't believe LDS are Christian, you don't believe Catholics are Christian, is it also your belief that Evangelists aren't Christian, or is there another reason you don't believe this interpretation?

Catholics tell you to pray to non-gods. Mormons follow a god who used to be a man, one of MANY men they claim have become gods. The BIBLE (the WORD OF GOD) contradicts BOTH of your stands. I don't think you even know what an evangelist is. To my knowledge, there is no 'religious organization' called that. Do you make this stuff up as you go?



"or is there a concession made in that case?
No, my theory is sound.

God has not spoken about any 'age of accountability.' Jesus said of children and infants 'of such is the kingdom of heaven. That is good enough for me. I believe Him. You may make anything up YOU WANT TO BELIEVE if you wish.




Oh my goodness, you're all over the place. And you didn't answer my questions, and you completely mixed up the context of a lot of what I was saying. So, I'll be back in a bit when I get of work and ask them again. If I were a rude person I would say your incessant endless melodramatic prattling (whining?) was a ploy to not answer my individual questions. But I'm not, so I won't :)

But, I'll be back later and address things separately and with as few words as possible. And I'll keep asking the questions, until you answer them.

One thing I would like to address now is this

You said "To my knowledge, there is no religious organization called that (evangelism)

Walter Martin Ministries says "Walter Martin Ministries focuses on evangelism.."

I wasn't saying the religion was called "evangelism", although I know it may have looked that way to someone being evasive (or clueless), I was speaking more about "evangelicalism" which is "a worldwide, transdenominational movement within Protestant Christianity, maintaining that the essence of the gospel consists in the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ's atonement." So it's not an organization...it's a movement.

Now, this site, is a evangelical CHRISTIAN site. But what it is NOT is Catholic or LDS. So, in plain words for you to understand, it's what you call "CHRISTIAN". Which should mean that you should agree with what they say. It's called "Simply Bible" The link is below

http://www.simplybible.com/f951.htm

THIS IS MY ONLY QUESTION:
Why do you not agree with a "CHRISTIAN" interpretation of the word "glory" in this Bible verse?

Heaven "...taken up in glory..." (1Timothy 3:16)

[MickeyS]

The p***age:

Acts 17:23-31
Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring.' 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given ***urance of this to all by raising Him from the dea
NKJV

Please SHOW US IN THE P***AGE where it SAYS ONE WORD ABOUT SPIRITUAL BABIES in any 'pre-existance. . .' Sorry, but it simply IS NOT THERE.
Please show in the p***age where it says ONE WORD about being adopted through faith and the atonement. It simply IS NOT THERE. This section is not about accepting the Gospel or becoming "adopted" children through the Atonement. It is about the nature of God, and our relation to Him. In this context....He is speaking of how we are literally His children. ALL OF US.

Again...there are different ways the Lord speaks of us as children.
1 - We are ALL literal spirit children of God
2 - We can be "adopted" through The Savior's Atonement and Gospel



The word 'beget' means "to Father." When a man begets a child, he FATHERS a child. Jesus is the ONLY 'FATHERED' child of God. The rest of us are adopted through Jesus Christ.
Jesus is the only physically fathered child of God, the only mortal man to have a Heavenly Father and a mortal mother. The rest of us can be adopted through Jesus Christ. And then we are ALL literal spirit children of God.


It does NOT TELL how the child BECAME a child of God. THAT happened when we received Jesus Christ as our Savior and Lord.
If it doesn't tell of HOW the child became a child of God....how do you know how it happened?



John 1:12-13
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
NKJV

IF they had ever been 'fathered' by God as so-called 'spirit-babies,' that sentence would make NO SENSE AT ALL.
Sigh...okay, lets do this again...
We are all LITERAL spirit children of God
We can become SYMBOLIC children of Jesus Christ through the Atonement.



And prior to your BECOMING a child of God????
We existed as intelligence. :)


We CHRISTIANS had to be bought because we didn't already belong to Jesus.
Correct, an example of how we can become SYMBOLIC "adopted" children through the Atonement and the gospel of Jesus Christ. And we didn't already belong to Jesus because He's not the Father of our spirits.


I don't think you even know what an evangelist is. To my knowledge, there is no 'religious organization' called that. Do you make this stuff up as you go?


I addressed this in my other response...I meant the MOVEMENT of evangelism within Protestant Christianity, of which Walter Martin and this forum is based on when it says in it's "about us" section "Walter Martin Ministries focuses on evangelism..."


God has not spoken about any 'age of accountability.'

Okay, so your answer is you don't know when.

[Christian]

mickey posted:


Originally Posted by Christian

The p***age:

Acts 17:23-31
Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring.' 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given ***urance of this to all by raising Him from the dea
NKJV

Please SHOW US IN THE P***AGE where it SAYS ONE WORD ABOUT SPIRITUAL BABIES in any 'pre-existance. . .' Sorry, but it simply IS NOT THERE.
Please show in the p***age where it says ONE WORD about being adopted through faith and the atonement. It simply IS NOT THERE. This section is not about accepting the Gospel or becoming "adopted" children through the Atonement. It is about the nature of God, and our relation to Him. In this context....He is speaking of how we are literally His children. ALL OF US.

When I study my Bible, I take the WHOLE BIBLE into consideration.

Gal 4:4-5
4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
NKJV


Eph 1:3-6


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
NKJV


I'm sorry if you don't believe THE GOD OF THE BIBLE. You can follow joey smith's imaginary gods if you wish.

Again...there are different ways the Lord speaks of us as children.
1 - We are ALL literal spirit children of God

Not according to GOD. We CHRISTIANS were ADOPTED by God, to be His children.

NON-Christians such as mormons, branch davidians, and other heathens fit the following description BY GOD:

John 8:44
44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
NKJV



2 - We can be "adopted" through The Savior's Atonement and Gospel

[/COLOR]
Jesus is the only physically fathered child of God, the only mortal man to have a Heavenly Father and a mortal mother. The rest of us can be adopted through Jesus Christ. And then we are ALL literal spirit children of God.


If it doesn't tell of HOW the child became a child of God....how do you know how it happened?

I read the Galatians and Ephesians p***ages above where GOD SAID SO. You ought to try actually STUDYING your Bible. . .

Sigh...okay, lets do this again...
We are all LITERAL spirit children of God
We can become SYMBOLIC children of Jesus Christ through the Atonement.

YOU CLAIM those things (GOD never said so).
Your cult may have TOLD you those things (GOD SAID NOTHING ABOUT BECOMING "SYMBOLIC" CHILDREN" THROUGH THE ATONEMENT BY JESUS ON THE CROSS)
Your cult has lied to you. . .again.


And prior to your BECOMING a child of God????


We existed as intelligence. :)
Do you make this junk up as you go? WHERE is this supposed to happen? In your pre-pre-existance? or your pre-pre-pre-pre-existance?


We CHRISTIANS had to be bought because we didn't already belong to Jesus.


Correct, an example of how we can become SYMBOLIC "adopted" children through the Atonement and the gospel of Jesus Christ. And we didn't already belong to Jesus because He's not the Father of our spirits.

I don't think even YOUR OWN CULT teaches your 'symbolic' adopted children theory. . . It LOOKS like you make it up as you go.


I don't think you even know what an evangelist is. To my knowledge, there is no 'religious organization' called that. Do you make this stuff up as you go?


I addressed this in my other response...I meant the MOVEMENT of evangelism within Protestant Christianity, of which Walter Martin and this forum is based on when it says in it's "about us" section "Walter Martin Ministries focuses on evangelism..."

And when you clearly misused the term (not mentioning the deceased Walter Martin at all), I pointed out that you seem to not know the meaning of the word. Have you looked up the meaning of the word since?



God has not spoken about any 'age of accountability.'

Okay, so your answer is you don't know when.

​GOD has not said when, thus NEITHER you NOR I know when. I am happy to leave it up to God however. Are you?

[MickeyS]

mickey posted:

[/COLOR][/I][/COLOR]
Please show in the p***age where it says ONE WORD about being adopted through faith and the atonement. It simply IS NOT THERE. This section is not about accepting the Gospel or becoming "adopted" children through the Atonement. It is about the nature of God, and our relation to Him. In this context....He is speaking of how we are literally His children. ALL OF US.

When I study my Bible, I take the WHOLE BIBLE into consideration.

Gal 4:4-5
4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
NKJV


Eph 1:3-6


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
NKJV


I'm sorry if you don't believe THE GOD OF THE BIBLE. You can follow joey smith's imaginary gods if you wish.

Again...there are different ways the Lord speaks of us as children.
1 - We are ALL literal spirit children of God

Not according to GOD. We CHRISTIANS were ADOPTED by God, to be His children.

NON-Christians such as mormons, branch davidians, and other heathens fit the following description BY GOD:

John 8:44
44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
NKJV



2 - We can be "adopted" through The Savior's Atonement and Gospel

[/COLOR]
Jesus is the only physically fathered child of God, the only mortal man to have a Heavenly Father and a mortal mother. The rest of us can be adopted through Jesus Christ. And then we are ALL literal spirit children of God.


If it doesn't tell of HOW the child became a child of God....how do you know how it happened?

I read the Galatians and Ephesians p***ages above where GOD SAID SO. You ought to try actually STUDYING your Bible. . .

Sigh...okay, lets do this again...
We are all LITERAL spirit children of God
We can become SYMBOLIC children of Jesus Christ through the Atonement.

YOU CLAIM those things (GOD never said so).
Your cult may have TOLD you those things (GOD SAID NOTHING ABOUT BECOMING "SYMBOLIC" CHILDREN" THROUGH THE ATONEMENT BY JESUS ON THE CROSS)
Your cult has lied to you. . .again.



We existed as intelligence. :)
Do you make this junk up as you go? WHERE is this supposed to happen? In your pre-pre-existance? or your pre-pre-pre-pre-existance?



Correct, an example of how we can become SYMBOLIC "adopted" children through the Atonement and the gospel of Jesus Christ. And we didn't already belong to Jesus because He's not the Father of our spirits.

I don't think even YOUR OWN CULT teaches your 'symbolic' adopted children theory. . . It LOOKS like you make it up as you go.



I addressed this in my other response...I meant the MOVEMENT of evangelism within Protestant Christianity, of which Walter Martin and this forum is based on when it says in it's "about us" section "Walter Martin Ministries focuses on evangelism..."

And when you clearly misused the term (not mentioning the deceased Walter Martin at all), I pointed out that you seem to not know the meaning of the word. Have you looked up the meaning of the word since?




Okay, so your answer is you don't know when.

​GOD has not said when, thus NEITHER you NOR I know when. I am happy to leave it up to God however. Are you?

I see, when you don't want to actually address what I'm talking about, you start in with the ad hominem attacks towards Joseph Smith....yawn... Predictable. You still did not answer about the "Christian" interpretation of the bible verse you disagreed with or answer my question why. Although you expressed before how I just need to ask what you believe and you'll tell me. Actual details, not just your overly repe***ive party line. You did not acknowledge when I explained that individual words in the Bible can have multiple meanings...DEPENDING ON THE CONTEXT in that particular section in which that particular word is discussed. And could not present anywhere in the P***AGE ( in this particular section) where God is referring to His adopted children in the Gospel.

And of course the "adoption" into the Gospel is symbolic....we're already His actual children silly.

I will address your individual evasions at another time.

But as for needing to reference the late Dr Martin when discussing the movement he stood for, IN HIS OWN FORUM...that seems silly. But I guess I have to explain everything to you. I'll try to be more thorough in the future. But you still never answered my question that was related to that. Nice deflect though.

[MickeyS]

mickey posted:

[/COLOR][/I][/COLOR]
Please show in the p***age where it says ONE WORD about being adopted through faith and the atonement. It simply IS NOT THERE. This section is not about accepting the Gospel or becoming "adopted" children through the Atonement. It is about the nature of God, and our relation to Him. In this context....He is speaking of how we are literally His children. ALL OF US.

When I study my Bible, I take the WHOLE BIBLE into consideration.

Gal 4:4-5
4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
NKJV


Eph 1:3-6


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
NKJV


I'm sorry if you don't believe THE GOD OF THE BIBLE. You can follow joey smith's imaginary gods if you wish.

Again...there are different ways the Lord speaks of us as children.
1 - We are ALL literal spirit children of God

Not according to GOD. We CHRISTIANS were ADOPTED by God, to be His children.

NON-Christians such as mormons, branch davidians, and other heathens fit the following description BY GOD:

John 8:44
44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
NKJV



2 - We can be "adopted" through The Savior's Atonement and Gospel

[/COLOR]
Jesus is the only physically fathered child of God, the only mortal man to have a Heavenly Father and a mortal mother. The rest of us can be adopted through Jesus Christ. And then we are ALL literal spirit children of God.


If it doesn't tell of HOW the child became a child of God....how do you know how it happened?

I read the Galatians and Ephesians p***ages above where GOD SAID SO. You ought to try actually STUDYING your Bible. . .

Sigh...okay, lets do this again...
We are all LITERAL spirit children of God
We can become SYMBOLIC children of Jesus Christ through the Atonement.

YOU CLAIM those things (GOD never said so).
Your cult may have TOLD you those things (GOD SAID NOTHING ABOUT BECOMING "SYMBOLIC" CHILDREN" THROUGH THE ATONEMENT BY JESUS ON THE CROSS)
Your cult has lied to you. . .again.



We existed as intelligence. :)
Do you make this junk up as you go? WHERE is this supposed to happen? In your pre-pre-existance? or your pre-pre-pre-pre-existance?



Correct, an example of how we can become SYMBOLIC "adopted" children through the Atonement and the gospel of Jesus Christ. And we didn't already belong to Jesus because He's not the Father of our spirits.

I don't think even YOUR OWN CULT teaches your 'symbolic' adopted children theory. . . It LOOKS like you make it up as you go.



I addressed this in my other response...I meant the MOVEMENT of evangelism within Protestant Christianity, of which Walter Martin and this forum is based on when it says in it's "about us" section "Walter Martin Ministries focuses on evangelism..."

And when you clearly misused the term (not mentioning the deceased Walter Martin at all), I pointed out that you seem to not know the meaning of the word. Have you looked up the meaning of the word since?




Okay, so your answer is you don't know when.

​GOD has not said when, thus NEITHER you NOR I know when. I am happy to leave it up to God however. Are you?

I have some questions about those who were born before Christ came.

Were they able to be adopted by God through the Gospel? I'm ***uming it's through believing in God and practicing the Law of Moses, correct?

But anyone who were not able to be taught the Law of Moses will not be His children?

And then all the Jews that were saved and became Gods adopted children before Christ was born...went to hell for doing the same thing right after Christ died, correct?

These aren't questions I don't know the answers to, I'm just trying to get some specifics of what you believe, you said I could do that, so if you would, I'd appreciate it.

Oh, and please try to answer my questions with more than "I believe in the God of the Bible" or "I believe in the Jesus Christ of the Bible"

Thanks!! :)

[alanmolstad]

I like the questions raised...

But all that stuff in the quotation?...that just screws with my head and i get lost in the monster amount if text....so im setting that stuff aside and only deal with the stuff you ask about....

[alanmolstad]

I have some questions about those who were born before Christ came.

Were they able to be adopted by God through the Gospel?




The law was only a school teacher that served untill the Lord came.

But be that as it may.....what the Bible shows us is that at all times the Lord is calling out to people....the Lord is not deaf...he hears all the words we speak in our hearts.

In the Bible in the Old test we see a small glimpse that regardless of their place of origin that people were responding to the calling of god they have heard....

This is the reason there is a "Court of the Gentiles"....for people even in the days of the Old test from other nations were still able to hear the calling of God ad become drawn to the Holy city....

[MickeyS]

I like the questions raised...

But all that stuff in the quotation?...that just screws with my head and i get lost in the monster amount if text....so im setting that stuff aside and only deal with the stuff you ask about....

Eek, sorry, I guess I was just showing that I was addressing Christian, yeah, that was getting kinda crazy lol

[alanmolstad]

But anyone who were not able to be taught the Law of Moses will not be His children?



Im sure thereis a great answer by Walter martin for this very question....But Im way too tired to go googleing for it right now...so I will just answer this question for myself on the fly....here we go.


There were people that were drawn to the holy City yet had a very ****py idea of the Bible and who Moses was.....


The idea I have is that we all are not far from god regardless of where and when we are born,,,,God is always reaching out to us in many,many ways...God will even use your own private thoughts as a means to reach out to you....

This is why no person has any excuse for turning away from God...as all people have received the calling from god.....

[MickeyS]

I have some questions about those who were born before Christ came.

Were they able to be adopted by God through the Gospel?






The law was only a school teacher that served untill the Lord came.

But be that as it may.....what the Bible shows us is that at all times the Lord is calling out to people....the Lord is not deaf...he hears all the words we speak in our hearts.

In the Bible in the Old test we see a small glimpse that regardless of their place of origin that people were responding to the calling of god they have heard....

This is the reason there is a "Court of the Gentiles"....for people even in the days of the Old test from other nations were still able to hear the calling of God ad become drawn to the Holy city....

Can you please let me know where in the Bible this is taught, and how this made them children of God through the Gospel?

Thanks! :)

[Christian]

mickey posted:

Originally Posted by Christian http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?p=165267#post165267)
mickey posted:


[/COLOR]
Please show in the p***age where it says ONE WORD about being adopted through faith and the atonement. It simply IS NOT THERE. This section is not about accepting the Gospel or becoming "adopted" children through the Atonement. It is about the nature of God, and our relation to Him. In this context....He is speaking of how we are literally His children. ALL OF US.

When I study my Bible, I take the WHOLE BIBLE into consideration.

Gal 4:4-5
4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
NKJV


Eph 1:3-6


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us toadoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
NKJV


I'm sorry if you don't believe THE GOD OF THE BIBLE. You can follow joey smith's imaginary gods if you wish.

Again...there are different ways the Lord speaks of us as children.
1 - We are ALL literal spirit children of God

Not according to GOD. We CHRISTIANS were ADOPTED by God, to be His children.

NON-Christians such as mormons, branch davidians, and other heathens fit the following description BY GOD:

John 8:44
44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
NKJV



2 - We can be "adopted" through The Savior's Atonement and Gospel

[/COLOR]
Jesus is the only physically fathered child of God, the only mortal man to have a Heavenly Father and a mortal mother. The rest of us can be adopted through Jesus Christ. And then we are ALL literal spirit children of God.


If it doesn't tell of HOW the child became a child of God....how do you know how it happened?

I read the Galatians and Ephesians p***ages above where GOD SAID SO. You ought to try actually STUDYING your Bible. . .

Sigh...okay, lets do this again...
We are all LITERAL spirit children of God
We can become SYMBOLIC children of Jesus Christ through the Atonement.

YOU CLAIM those things (GOD never said so).
Your cult may have TOLD you those things (GOD SAID NOTHING ABOUT BECOMING "SYMBOLIC" CHILDREN" THROUGH THE ATONEMENT BY JESUS ON THE CROSS)
Your cult has lied to you. . .again.



We existed as intelligence. :)
Do you make this junk up as you go? WHERE is this supposed to happen? In your pre-pre-existance? or your pre-pre-pre-pre-existance?



Correct, an example of how we can become SYMBOLIC "adopted" children through the Atonement and the gospel of Jesus Christ. And we didn't already belong to Jesus because He's not the Father of our spirits.

I don't think even YOUR OWN CULT teaches your 'symbolic' adopted children theory. . . It LOOKS like you make it up as you go.



I addressed this in my other response...I meant the MOVEMENT of evangelism within Protestant Christianity, of which Walter Martin and this forum is based on when it says in it's "about us" section "Walter Martin Ministries focuses on evangelism..."

And when you clearly misused the term (not mentioning the deceased Walter Martin at all), I pointed out that you seem to not know the meaning of the word. Have you looked up the meaning of the word since?




Okay, so your answer is you don't know when.

​GOD has not said when, thus NEITHER you NOR I know when. I am happy to leave it up to God however. Are you?[/I][/COLOR]

I see, when you don't want to actually address what I'm talking about, you start in with the ad hominem attacks towards Joseph Smith....yawn... Predictable. You still did not answer about the "Christian" interpretation of the bible verse you disagreed with or answer my question why.

What part of "When I study my Bible, I take the WHOLE BIBLE into consideration.

Gal 4:4-5
4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
NKJV


Eph 1:3-6


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
NKJV"
DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND? I quoted SCRIPTURE that contradicted your pretense that all people are 'spirit children of God.' I pointed out that God doesn't 'adopt' those children who are already HIS.

But you just continue to make up fantasy claims.

And of course the "adoption" into the Gospel is symbolic....we're already His actual children silly.
Not according to God, you aren't.

I will address your individual evasions at another time

In other words, you cannot find BIBLICAL answers for your false claims, so you will run away without admitting it.

But as for needing to reference the late Dr Martin when discussing the movement he stood for, IN HIS OWN FORUM...that seems silly. But I guess I have to explain everything to you. I'll try to be more thorough in the future. But you still never answered my question that was related to that. Nice deflect though.

What question was that? You make some vague reference to an 'evangelist,' then whine because I don't understand WHO you were referring to and trying to 'put down?' Your strawman arguments don't work.

[MickeyS]

Christian said:

In other words, you cannot find BIBLICAL answers for your false claims, so you will run away without admitting it.

No I just have more to do in my life than hold your hand through this discussion. I clearly posted a scripture and you ignored it and quoted other scripture that only proved when we are adopted children through the Gospel. But you refused to discuss the scripture I posted. I have to keep going back through your incessant repe***ive prattle and explain things...it takes a minute. Perhaps you think if you keep repeating the same things over and over again, I'll just give up..so I have to devise a way in which I just ask one...question...at..a...time...which proves a challenge because I have to figure out what to ask first that won't confuse you. So, yes, I'll be back. I haven't backed down yet :)

[MickeyS]

Since Christian missed this question before, I Will post it again and see if he will answer it. Christian, please let me know if there are any difficult or "vague" words that you don't understand.

I had put the question in bold so you wouldn't miss it..,here it is again...this will be the third time I've posted it

I know you read the post because all you wanted to do was whine about how I didn't make it completely clear (although it should have been completely obvious) what kind of Evangelism I was speaking of. So.....I will remove that distracting word since you're having a problem comprehending it, and leave it at what YOU refer to as "Christian". Ok? So don't pout anymore.





Now, this site, is not Catholic or LDS. So, in plain words for you to understand, it's what you call "CHRISTIAN". Which should mean that you should agree with what they say. It's called "Simply Bible" The link is below

http://www.simplybible.com/f951.htm

THIS IS MY ONLY QUESTION:
Why do you not agree with a "CHRISTIAN" interpretation of the word "glory" in this Bible verse?

Heaven "...taken up in glory..." (1Timothy 3:16)

[MickeyS]

For Christian:


But as for needing to reference the late Dr Martin when discussing the movement he stood for, IN HIS OWN FORUM...that seems silly. But I guess I have to explain everything to you. I'll try to be more thorough in the future. But you still never answered my question that was related to that. Nice deflect though.

What question was that? You make some vague reference to an 'evangelist,' then whine because I don't understand WHO you were referring to and trying to 'put down?' Your strawman arguments don't work.

Huh?? What did I whine about? Lol, you were the one who needed things explained to you, so I obliged...you're a weird dude, you keep asking me to do things and then complain that I do them...lol, you're funny:rolleyes:

Also, when you put things in these "quote" marks it means you're quoting exactly what the OP said or has said. Since I never said "put down" maybe you don't know that, just trying to help out :)

[alanmolstad]

Can you please let me know where in the Bible this is taught, ....?

Thanks! :)I wrote a bunch of stuff, so can you tell me what you would like me to show support for in the bible?

Th

[MickeyS]

I wrote a bunch of stuff, so can you tell me what you would like me to show support for in the bible?

Th

What is the "calling from God", how does it work, and where can that be found in the OT?

What exactly was the "Court of Gentiles" and how did that specifically make them adopted children of God, like you say we can be through faith in Jesus Christ and His gospel?

Also, since everyone should have heard the calling of God that called them to the Holy City...if they did not go there, did they lose their opportunity to become children of God, and where is that explained in the Bible?

And how did they know whether or not this would exclude them from being God's children, and where is that in the Bible?

If that is the ONLY way we can be considered children of God...at all..how was it done before Jesus Christ, and where can it be found in the Bible? I'm looking for the OT specifics for being saved through faith in Jesus Christ and becoming Gods children. It should be there because they were very specific about commandments and rituals and ceremonies. I'm just trying to get a clear bead on how mankind has always had the opportunity to become children of God, especially since you say we have no familial relations to Him until then.

Thank you

[alanmolstad]

What do you believe happens to those who die without even knowing anything about Jesus?


What about children of the unbelievers?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVXMUDC_pw8&list=PL701D8A67651291FF

[MickeyS]

I have asked Christian this question three times now....is he ready to answer? I would like to move on to other topics, you requested I give you the question.....again... Thank you :)

[QUOTE] Now, this site, is not Catholic or LDS. So, in plain words for you to understand, it's what you call "CHRISTIAN". Which should mean that you should agree with what they say. It's called "Simply Bible" The link is below

http://www.simplybible.com/f951.htm

THIS IS MY ONLY QUESTION:
Why do you not agree with a "CHRISTIAN" interpretation of the word "glory" in this Bible verse?

Heaven "...taken up in glory..." (1Timothy 3:16) [/QUOTE

[Christian]

I have asked Christian this question three times now....is he ready to answer? I would like to move on to other topics, you requested I give you the question.....again... Thank you :)

[QUOTE] Now, this site, is not Catholic or LDS. So, in plain words for you to understand, it's what you call "CHRISTIAN". Which should mean that you should agree with what they say. It's called "Simply Bible" The link is below

THIS IS MY ONLY QUESTION:
Why do you not agree with a "CHRISTIAN" interpretation of the word "glory" in this Bible verse?

Heaven "...taken up in glory..." (1Timothy 3:16) [/QUOTE

I <snipped> the link. I don't go 'link-hopping' for you to help you 'try to make points.'

It doesn't matter a whit what that person thinks the word 'glory' means in that p***age. WHAT DID PAUL mean is the question you should be asking, not 'can I find anyone, someone anywhere who agrees with you?'

The MEANING of the Greek word in that p***age = 'splendor, magnificence, grandness.'

It does NOT MEAN a place where people go when they die.

Your cult has lied to you. . .again.

And you keep whining. I have answered this question before.

Now you will likely whine some more about me not answering it.

Of course YOU are not interested in what Paul meant when he wrote to Timothy. YOU are only interested in trying to find someone/something that agrees with your pre-determined theory. Not very honest, if you ask me. . .

[Christian]

mickey posted:

Christian said:


In other words, you cannot find BIBLICAL answers for your false claims, so you will run away without admitting it.

No I just have more to do in my life than hold your hand through this discussion. I clearly posted a scripture and you ignored it and quoted other scripture that only proved when we are adopted children through the Gospel.

Please SHOW US where that is so. I don't think you can. But I AM glad that we are ADOPTED children of God, NOT HIS BIOLOGICAL OFFSPRING. Your 'we are all children of god' theory is debunked. We are ADOPTED children of God (AS YOU AGREED). He does not need to ADOPT his own kids, of course! Your theory debunked.

But you refused to discuss the scripture I posted.

I think I went through your post line by line. You CERTAINLY DID NOT respond to MY POSTINGS.

You are a pot calling the kettle black, clearly.

I have to keep going back through your incessant repe***ive prattle and explain things...it takes a minute.

I point out SCRIPTURE that demonstrates that YOU ARE IGNORANT OF THE BIBLE, so it IS necessary for me to 'explain things' to you FROM THE SCRIPTURES.

Perhaps you think if you keep repeating the same things over and over again, I'll just give up..

I DO keep repeating the TRUTHS FROM THE BIBLE. That is what we CHRISTIANS do. UNLIKE you mormons who seem to 'make it up as you go.'

I pity you, and I pray to the GOD OF THE BIBLE (not the 'once a man who became a god, but never changed at all' god for your soul.

[Christian]

Since Christian missed this question before, I Will post it again and see if he will answer it. Christian, please let me know if there are any difficult or "vague" words that you don't understand.

I had put the question in bold so you wouldn't miss it..,here it is again...this will be the third time I've posted it

I know you read the post because all you wanted to do was whine about how I didn't make it completely clear (although it should have been completely obvious) what kind of Evangelism I was speaking of. So.....I will remove that distracting word since you're having a problem comprehending it, and leave it at what YOU refer to as "Christian". Ok? So don't pout anymore.

I KNEW you would ignore my answer and whine some more! I answered your post MORE THAN ONCE, but you keep whining anyway. So stop your pouting and whining and SHOW US IN THE BIBLE WHERE IT SAYS

That all men are 'spirit children' of your god and goddesses
That God was once a man
That Jesus was NOT the ONLY begotten (fathered) Son of God
That Christ's church would/could 'lose some of its scriptures.'
That Jesus is a 'spirit brother' of satan instead of satan's CREATOR

Of course YOU never respond to this (though I have posted it all in various forms MANY TIMES); instead you just whine.

What will you whine now? I answered your question AGAIN.

Of course I don't have a CLUE why you would think that the writer of that article should be agreed with just because he sez he is a Christian. The fundamentalist mormons claim to be 'Christians' too. Just like the other 150 or so heathen mormon religions do, while they each deny that any of the others are.
I've answered YOUR questions. Now YOU have the guts to answer MINE (if you can, if not, we will understand).

[MickeyS]

[QUOTE=MickeyS;165369]I have asked Christian this question three times now....is he ready to answer? I would like to move on to other topics, you requested I give you the question.....again... Thank you :)



I <snipped> the link. I don't go 'link-hopping' for you to help you 'try to make points.'

It doesn't matter a whit what that person thinks the word 'glory' means in that p***age. WHAT DID PAUL mean is the question you should be asking, not 'can I find anyone, someone anywhere who agrees with you?'

The MEANING of the Greek word in that p***age = 'splendor, magnificence, grandness.'

It does NOT MEAN a place where people go when they die.

Your cult has lied to you. . .again.

And you keep whining. I have answered this question before.

Now you will likely whine some more about me not answering it.

Of course YOU are not interested in what Paul meant when he wrote to Timothy. YOU are only interested in trying to find someone/something that agrees with your pre-determined theory. Not very honest, if you ask me. . .


My cult didn't say that you idiot....*** you're so dumb! Lol Another Christian to remove from the list of "Christian's Christians" lol

[MickeyS]

[QUOTE=MickeyS;165369]I have asked Christian this question three times now....is he ready to answer? I would like to move on to other topics, you requested I give you the question.....again... Thank you :)



I <snipped> the link. I don't go 'link-hopping' for you to help you 'try to make points.'

It doesn't matter a whit what that person thinks the word 'glory' means in that p***age. WHAT DID PAUL mean is the question you should be asking, not 'can I find anyone, someone anywhere who agrees with you?'

The MEANING of the Greek word in that p***age = 'splendor, magnificence, grandness.'

It does NOT MEAN a place where people go when they die.

Your cult has lied to you. . .again.

And you keep whining. I have answered this question before.

Now you will likely whine some more about me not answering it.

Of course YOU are not interested in what Paul meant when he wrote to Timothy. YOU are only interested in trying to find someone/something that agrees with your pre-determined theory. Not very honest, if you ask me. . .


My cult didn't say that you idiot....*** you're so dumb! Lol Another Christian to remove from the list of "Christian's Christians" lol

[Christian]

[QUOTE]I <snipped> the link. I don't go 'link-hopping' for you to help you 'try to make points.'

It doesn't matter a whit what that person thinks the word 'glory' means in that p***age. WHAT DID PAUL mean is the question you should be asking, not 'can I find anyone, someone anywhere who agrees with you?'

The MEANING of the Greek word in that p***age = 'splendor, magnificence, grandness.'

It does NOT MEAN a place where people go when they die.

Your cult has lied to you. . .again.

And you keep whining. I have answered this question before.

Now you will likely whine some more about me not answering it.

Of course YOU are not interested in what Paul meant when he wrote to Timothy. YOU are only interested in trying to find someone/something that agrees with your pre-determined theory. Not very honest, if you ask me. . .

My cult didn't say that you idiot....*** you're so dumb! Lol Another Christian to remove from the list of "Christian's Christians" lol

Do you REALLY THINK name-calling like that enhances your arguments?

What I said is entirely TRUE.

The word 'glory' no matter how many mormons, secular people who claim to be Christians, or other non-Christians try to make up new meanings for the word, DOES NOT MEAN some place where you go when you die.

GOD never said it does.

ONLY SINFUL MEN have said it.

And all of your NAME-CALLING AND WHINING won't change that.

[alanmolstad]

Do you REALLY THINK name-calling like that enhances your arguments?




what I have seen over the years is that when some Mormon guests realize that they no longer can argue their point anymore,and that their side of the debate is simply proved to be in error, that they will start to break the forum's rules in an effort to be banned.

I think that they believe that being banned offers them a way out of the conversation?

They want to be able to say later to others something like - "I told the truth and they banned me for it"



We get many guests here from a different Christian message forum where their bad manners there caused them to be banned,and so this forum here is like their waiting room, where they wait out their banning from the other site.

That's why some guests tend to break the rules here , or tend to start name-calling for no reason, for they actually had no intention of sticking around here...

[MickeyS]

[QUOTE=Christian;165434]


what I have seen over the years is that when some Mormon guests realize that they no longer can argue their point anymore,and that their side of the debate is simply proved to be in error, that they will start to break the forum's rules in an effort to be banned.

I think that they believe that being banned offers them a way out of the conversation?

They want to be able to say later to others something like - "I told the truth and they banned me for it"



We get many guests here from a different Christian message forum where their bad manners there caused them to be banned,and so this forum here is like their waiting room, where they wait out their banning from the other site.

That's why some guests tend to break the rules here , or tend to start name-calling for no reason, for they actually had no intention of sticking around here...

Omigosh that's rich coming from somebody who's never answered one of my questions about biblical proof of any of your claims. I've given information, it's been ignored. And I don't how many times I told him a CHRISTIAN said that...what do I have to do to get you all to actually read what I say? Because you don't...not until it's something you can judge me about.

Please Alan...show me one place you have explained where anything you have said can be found in the bible....because at least Christian attempts to give me scripture...you haven't, not once.

And honestly....your one sided rules...are a joke lol. Anyone with half a brain that comes in here and reads how Christian speaks and then sees me call him one little name is not going to think I'M the bad guy.

Omyword. Ok Big C, I'll come back later and explain those Isaiah verses to you when I get off work, and then I'm done with this place.

[MickeyS]

[QUOTE=Christian;165434]


what I have seen over the years is that when some Mormon guests realize that they no longer can argue their point anymore,and that their side of the debate is simply proved to be in error, that they will start to break the forum's rules in an effort to be banned.

I think that they believe that being banned offers them a way out of the conversation?

They want to be able to say later to others something like - "I told the truth and they banned me for it"



We get many guests here from a different Christian message forum where their bad manners there caused them to be banned,and so this forum here is like their waiting room, where they wait out their banning from the other site.

That's why some guests tend to break the rules here , or tend to start name-calling for no reason, for they actually had no intention of sticking around here...

Omigosh that's rich coming from somebody who's never answered one of my questions about biblical proof of any of your claims. I've given information, it's been ignored. And I don't how many times I told him a "CHRISTIAN" said that...what do I have to do to get you all to actually read what I say? Because you don't...not until it's something you can judge me about.

Please Alan...show me one place you have explained where anything you have said can be found in the bible....because at least Christian attempts to give me scripture...you haven't, not once.

And honestly....your one sided rules...are a joke lol. Anyone with half a brain that comes in here and reads how Christian speaks and then sees me call him one little name is not going to think I'M the bad guy.

Omyword. Ok Big C, I'll come back later and explain those Isaiah verses to you when I get off work, and then I'm done with this place.

[MickeyS]

[QUOTE=Christian;165434]


what I have seen over the years is that when some Mormon guests realize that they no longer can argue their point anymore,and that their side of the debate is simply proved to be in error, that they will start to break the forum's rules in an effort to be banned.

I think that they believe that being banned offers them a way out of the conversation?

They want to be able to say later to others something like - "I told the truth and they banned me for it"



We get many guests here from a different Christian message forum where their bad manners there caused them to be banned,and so this forum here is like their waiting room, where they wait out their banning from the other site.

That's why some guests tend to break the rules here , or tend to start name-calling for no reason, for they actually had no intention of sticking around here...

Omigosh that's rich coming from somebody who's never answered one of my questions about biblical proof of any of your claims. I've given information, it's been ignored. And I don't how many times I told him another "CHRISTIAN" said that...what do I have to do to get you all to actually read what I say? Because you don't...not until it's something you can judge me about.

Please Alan...show me one place you have explained where anything you have said can be found in the bible....because at least Christian attempts to give me scripture...you haven't, not once.

And honestly....your one sided rules...are a joke lol. Anyone with half a brain that comes in here and reads how Christian speaks and then sees me call him one little name is not going to think I'M the bad guy.

Omyword. Ok Big C, I'll come back later and explain those Isaiah verses to you when I get off work, and then I'm done with this place.

[Christian]

The kid posted:


Originally Posted by Christian (http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?p=165434#post165434)


what I have seen over the years is that when some Mormon guests realize that they no longer can argue their point anymore,and that their side of the debate is simply proved to be in error, that they will start to break the forum's rules in an effort to be banned.

I think that they believe that being banned offers them a way out of the conversation?

They want to be able to say later to others something like - "I told the truth and they banned me for it"



We get many guests here from a different Christian message forum where their bad manners there caused them to be banned,and so this forum here is like their waiting room, where they wait out their banning from the other site.

That's why some guests tend to break the rules here , or tend to start name-calling for no reason, for they actually had no intention of sticking around here...


No. CHRISTIAN NEVER POSTED THAT. YOU are quoting what SOMEONE ELSE POSTED and falsely attributing it to me.

If you can't keep postings straight, what makes you think we should trust your CRAZY SPECULATIONS in other things?

[alanmolstad]

I post a lot on the topics that are of interest to me...
I like to write on the ideas i have about bible topics...for it gives me a chance to dig deeper into the things I believe are true and why I believe they are true.

But when I post a comment, I never believe for one moment that I have a right to have my words read and need to be replied to.

I don't have any such "right" to have my words read by others here...

none of us have such a right, nor should we expect such.

So, the joy I get out of this forum is not dependent on the correct response I must get from others first.





Thus when I write things and post them onto the Walter Martin forum, I do so with gra***ude to Walter's family for allowing me this opportunity, and I endeavor to make my comments easy for Mormons read....but not necessary easy for Mormons to stomach.

[alanmolstad]

The kid posted:



No. CHRISTIAN NEVER POSTED THAT. YOU are quoting what SOMEONE ELSE POSTED and falsely attributing it to me.

If you can't keep postings straight, what makes you think we should trust your CRAZY SPECULATIONS in other things?



shall I respond?..or do I have to wait for you to post the same message another 2 times?

[alanmolstad]

or........shall I just go on to ....?

[alanmolstad]

server problems are just a fact of life....



Over the years you just got to be able to see past the fact that not all the times you want to post things you will be able to..
Not all the additions to comments can be posted...not all the changes you want to make to your own posts are able to be updated...


It just is the way it is....


and its been the same story here from the beginning....

[MickeyS]

I post a lot on the topics that are of interest to me...
I like to write on the ideas i have about bible topics...for it gives me a chance to dig deeper into the things I believe are true and why I believe they are true.

But when I post a comment, I never believe for one moment that I have a right to have my words read and need to be replied to.

I don't have any such "right" to have my words read by others here...

none of us have such a right, nor should we expect such.

So, the joy I get out of this forum is not dependent on the correct response I must get from others first.





Thus when I write things and post them onto the Walter Martin forum, I do so with gra***ude to Walter's family for allowing me this opportunity, and I endeavor to make my comments easy for Mormons read....but not necessary easy for Mormons to stomach.

Then accusations and judgments about why questions are not answered, or said they're not answered should be discouraged, correct? Or do others have a right to act like that?

[alanmolstad]

Then accusations and judgments about why questions are not answered, or said they're not answered should be discouraged, correct? Or do others have a right to act like that?

I only hope that all posts are kept within the rules....

But I dont want it said that one guest wants to write everyone else's posts!


I tend to not read the posts that seem to be just a "he said/she said" type of back and forth, going on and on talking about who said what or did not say what...


i tend to add my opinion about the manners of people when and if i see people tending to just deal with personal stuff against each other,and not dealing with ideas and Bible stuff.

this in the past has gotten people very upset with me, both Christians and members of other religions tend to want to "get personal" when they run out of ideas, and so Im used to people attacking me because I have spoken upin the past about the 'tone' of some of the comments.



And while a lot of people tend to think Im only criticizing people of their faith and not my own, I can ***ure you that I have received some rather nasty private messages from people of my own faith when some felt that by simply pointing out their lack of good manners I had somehow "Stabbed them in the back" and "hurt the body of Christ"



But Im not actually on a team here.
I dont get secret messages on how to respond to people.

I have talked to people on the side to help them deal with the bickering...I mostly suggest the use of the IGNORE list,(Its still working just fine, I tested it not long ago).



For the most part I only post on topics I enjoy talking about...and trust me,"Mormonism is no such topic".
That is why I tend to let others carry the water on the topic of Mormons....I simply have not a lot of interest nor fun when dealing with all the bickering that pops upon the Mormon topics.

I do enjoy the fact that when needed, the Good Lord does send to this forum a few handfuls of Christians that seem to really enjoy taking about Mormon stuff...







as for your real question posted at the top of this?
I have a lot to do today, and so i will have to get back to you later about that...
But I really only would suggest that people read the rules to this forum as given, and try to maintain their own posts to be be within such rules....

[MickeyS]

what I have seen over the years is that when some Mormon guests realize that they no longer can argue their point anymore,and that their side of the debate is simply proved to be in error, that they will start to break the forum's rules in an effort to be banned.

I think that they believe that being banned offers them a way out of the conversation?

They want to be able to say later to others something like - "I told the truth and they banned me for it"



We get many guests here from a different Christian message forum where their bad manners there caused them to be banned,and so this forum here is like their waiting room, where they wait out their banning from the other site.

That's why some guests tend to break the rules here , or tend to start name-calling for no reason, for they actually had no intention of sticking around here...

So this wasn't directed towards me....duly noted, thank you.

[MickeyS]

The kid posted:



No. CHRISTIAN NEVER POSTED THAT. YOU are quoting what SOMEONE ELSE POSTED and falsely attributing it to me.

If you can't keep postings straight, what makes you think we should trust your CRAZY SPECULATIONS in other things?




Omigosh....it says Alan at the very top...and my response was DIRECTLY towards Alan. I don't know why your name got in there, I never typed that, it was obviously left there from the previous post somehow. I know you didn't post that

Did you mean to post this twice?

Oh.....but I did address you there at the bottom Big C, cuz you keep going on and on about how I'm not answering your questions...so
I'll be back, since this cult of a forum apparently doesn't let you quit once you've joined...they refuse to delete my account...fine. But I'll be back with answers specific to the scriptures you posted even, like I usually do. You cannot say I'm afraid to answer questions because I'm not....never have been. Then I'll leave, because there's no point to being here, I'm getting nothing out of it and have no idea what your take is on the many scriptures that explain our beliefs and contradict yours. And you all never will answer so what's the point really besides wasting my life? It's not because I'm stupid, stupidity would be explaining myself over and over and over again thinking somebody's going to listen to me.

But there will be no doubt when I leave, that I have not left a question unanswered

[Christian]

mickey posted:

Oh.....but I did address you there at the bottom Big C, cuz you keep going on and on about how I'm not answering your questions...so
I'll be back, since this cult of a forum apparently doesn't let you quit once you've joined...they refuse to delete my account...fine. But I'll be back with answers specific to the scriptures you posted even, like I usually do.


When will you START your 'usually do?

So far you haven't.


You cannot say I'm afraid to answer questions because I'm not....never have been.

You sure APPEAR to be afraid to try to answer the SCRIPTURES I have posted. EVERY TIME.

Then I'll leave, because there's no point to being here, I'm getting nothing out of it and have no idea what your take is on the many scriptures that explain our beliefs and contradict yours. And you all never will answer so what's the point really besides wasting my life? It's not because I'm stupid, stupidity would be explaining myself over and over and over again thinking somebody's going to listen to me.

Nobody listens to your stupid SPECULATIONS. Perhaps if you had SCRIPTURE to support you, you might do better. . .

But there will be no doubt when I leave, that I have not left a question unanswered

When your 'answers' are nothing more than YOUR OPINIONS and CRAZY SPECULATIONS, we ignore them. IF you could only TRY to find something in the BIBLE that supports your speculations. . .but of course you cannot.

Instead, you are a 'natural man' described here:

1 Cor 2:14-15
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
NKJV

You CLEARLY do not understand the Bible, the WORD OF GOD and will fall for any manure your cult feeds you.

[Christian]

mickey posted:


Originally Posted by alanmolstad http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?p=165442#post165442)
what I have seen over the years is that when some Mormon guests realize that they no longer can argue their point anymore,and that their side of the debate is simply proved to be in error, that they will start to break the forum's rules in an effort to be banned.

I think that they believe that being banned offers them a way out of the conversation?

They want to be able to say later to others something like - "I told the truth and they banned me for it"



We get many guests here from a different Christian message forum where their bad manners there caused them to be banned,and so this forum here is like their waiting room, where they wait out their banning from the other site.

That's why some guests tend to break the rules here , or tend to start name-calling for no reason, for they actually had no intention of sticking around here...


So this wasn't directed towards me....duly noted, thank you.

I don't know WHO it was directed towards. But if the shoe fits. . .

[Christian]

mickey posted:


Originally Posted by alanmolstad http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?p=165442#post165442)
what I have seen over the years is that when some Mormon guests realize that they no longer can argue their point anymore,and that their side of the debate is simply proved to be in error, that they will start to break the forum's rules in an effort to be banned.

I think that they believe that being banned offers them a way out of the conversation?

They want to be able to say later to others something like - "I told the truth and they banned me for it"



We get many guests here from a different Christian message forum where their bad manners there caused them to be banned,and so this forum here is like their waiting room, where they wait out their banning from the other site.

That's why some guests tend to break the rules here , or tend to start name-calling for no reason, for they actually had no intention of sticking around here...


So this wasn't directed towards me....duly noted, thank you.

I don't know WHO it was directed towards. But if the shoe fits. . .first it had MY name in the place of alanmolstad's. Now it APPEARS to be a response to MY post. But it did not originate with me, and with the name-changes at the start of it, I have no clue WHO posted it originally.

Perhaps it WAS directed towards you by whoever posted it. It DOES seem to fit you.

[MickeyS]

I only hope that all posts are kept within the rules....

But I dont want it said that one guest wants to write everyone else's posts!


I tend to not read the posts that seem to be just a "he said/she said" type of back and forth, going on and on talking about who said what or did not say what...


i tend to add my opinion about the manners of people when and if i see people tending to just deal with personal stuff against each other,and not dealing with ideas and Bible stuff.

this in the past has gotten people very upset with me, both Christians and members of other religions tend to want to "get personal" when they run out of ideas, and so Im used to people attacking me because I have spoken upin the past about the 'tone' of some of the comments.



And while a lot of people tend to think Im only criticizing people of their faith and not my own, I can ***ure you that I have received some rather nasty private messages from people of my own faith when some felt that by simply pointing out their lack of good manners I had somehow "Stabbed them in the back" and "hurt the body of Christ"



But Im not actually on a team here.
I dont get secret messages on how to respond to people.

I have talked to people on the side to help them deal with the bickering...I mostly suggest the use of the IGNORE list,(Its still working just fine, I tested it not long ago).



For the most part I only post on topics I enjoy talking about...and trust me,"Mormonism is no such topic".
That is why I tend to let others carry the water on the topic of Mormons....I simply have not a lot of interest nor fun when dealing with all the bickering that pops upon the Mormon topics.

I do enjoy the fact that when needed, the Good Lord does send to this forum a few handfuls of Christians that seem to really enjoy taking about Mormon stuff...







as for your real question posted at the top of this?
I have a lot to do today, and so i will have to get back to you later about that...
But I really only would suggest that people read the rules to this forum as given, and try to maintain their own posts to be be within such rules....


Christian said: Nobody listens to your stupid SPECULATIONS. Perhaps if you had SCRIPTURE to support you, you might do better. . .

So I can say what he SAYS is stupid, I just can't call him stupid directly? Please clarify

[MickeyS]

mickey posted:

Oh.....but I did address you there at the bottom Big C, cuz you keep going on and on about how I'm not answering your questions...so
I'll be back, since this cult of a forum apparently doesn't let you quit once you've joined...they refuse to delete my account...fine. But I'll be back with answers specific to the scriptures you posted even, like I usually do.


When will you START your 'usually do?

So far you haven't.


You cannot say I'm afraid to answer questions because I'm not....never have been.

You sure APPEAR to be afraid to try to answer the SCRIPTURES I have posted. EVERY TIME.

Then I'll leave, because there's no point to being here, I'm getting nothing out of it and have no idea what your take is on the many scriptures that explain our beliefs and contradict yours. And you all never will answer so what's the point really besides wasting my life? It's not because I'm stupid, stupidity would be explaining myself over and over and over again thinking somebody's going to listen to me.

Nobody listens to your stupid SPECULATIONS. Perhaps if you had SCRIPTURE to support you, you might do better. . .


Is this not the bible?

God & Jesus Christ are separate persons

Acts 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.(What was the point of showing separate persons if they're one person? Also....how do you see God's body at all?) it's quite obvious God is telling us they're not the same person
Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Matthew 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

Matthew 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup p*** from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Again, Jesus going off on His own to pray....why? He already knows everything, doesn't He?

Acts 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

How about this? Following the commandments
Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

John 14:15 - If ye love me, keep my commandments

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.

John 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

And this
The scriptures use different terms to describe how we are sons & daughters of God & Jesus Christ

We are all literal spirit children of Heavenly Father
Acts 17:29 - We are offspring of God
Hebrews 12:9 - Be in subjection unto the Father of spirits

We are "adopted" children born again through the Atonement
John 1:12 - As many as received himgave he power to become the sons of God

The word "glory"
Splendor - Matthew 6:29 "....Solomon in all his glory..."
Praise - Acts 12:23 "...he did not give God the glory..."
Brightness - 2Corinthians 3:7 "the glory of Moses's face"
Heaven - 1Timothy 3:16 "...taken up in glory..."

Forgive me for the last few examples, I researched the site that I retrieved those from and they claimed to be "Christian's" that focus on evangelism, and salvation by faith without works. Now I realize that the only "Christian's" you agree with (in my experience with you this far) are the "Christian's" here

So....to say I don't quote the Bible is BEYOND untrue. These came from existing posts. Now, I am not expecting responses and I don't care if you don't agree with my choice in verses, but I STILL USED THEM. You are ..... Lying

[alanmolstad]

mickey posted:



So this wasn't directed towards me....duly noted, thank you.

I don't know WHO it was directed towards. But if the shoe fits. . .



I believe that what I had in mind was based on the history of this forum that I have observed over the years.

I have seen a tendency of many guests to run out of support for what they believe, and so they will get personal in their comments about other guests.

I also have noticed that many guests that come here from other forums where they were recently banned have tried to do the same things here that got them banned at the other forum.
This means that they start fights here and use language that they know full well will only result in getting themselves banned from here too.
In other words, that came here only wanting to continue their bad behavior patterns, and have no intention of becoming valued members of this forum.

They come here and treat this site as a disposable waiting room....

[MickeyS]

what I have seen over the years is that when some Mormon guests realize that they no longer can argue their point anymore,and that their side of the debate is simply proved to be in error, that they will start to break the forum's rules in an effort to be banned.

I think that they believe that being banned offers them a way out of the conversation?

They want to be able to say later to others something like - "I told the truth and they banned me for it"

This does not apply to me, although the complete double standard and disrespect for anyone not in good standing in this forum is beyond frustrating and has UNDERSTANDABLY upset me (not hurt my feelings....****ed me off), I am not trying to get banned. I have, however, requested that my account be deleted....should be a simple request....if you create an account somewhere, you should be able to delete it right? NOT HERE...here you are not allowed to leave once you join.....sounds like a cult....I thought you all were against cults




We get many guests here from a different Christian message forum where their bad manners there caused them to be banned,and so this forum here is like their waiting room, where they wait out their banning from the other site.

That's why some guests tend to break the rules here , or tend to start name-calling for no reason, for they actually had no intention of sticking around here...

Does not apply to me either, I have never been a member of another forum. And the "name calling" was not out of the blue for no reason....I'm human...any reasonable person besides Christ Himself or ***...would eventually get sick of being consistently treated like dirt by Christian. He however, is able to get around these forum rules somehow and has no problem saying stupid things for no reason at all besides that he can.

SO.....nope....shoe don't fit here...sorry

[alanmolstad]

Christian said: Nobody listens to your stupid SPECULATIONS. Perhaps if you had SCRIPTURE to support you, you might do better. . .

So I can say what he SAYS is stupid, I just can't call him stupid directly? Please clarify

I was always told to-
hate the sin, but love the sinner.





I know a lot of people seem to be very curious about what they can get away with?

This can only lead to a race to the bottom....

A compe***ion to see who can get away with the most before they end up in trouble...where guests try their best to skirt the lowest end of what is within the rules and proper for this forum.


My answer is this:
I have seen that it is a lot harder to drag a person up and out of the ditch than it is for the person to get dragged down into the ditch.
Going down hill is a lot more easy.




all i can add to that is that I am always yanking people back up and away from the downhill slope...
Regardless of their religion, I am always encouraging people to learn to be able to think of and post their views within the given rules without being needlessly personal...advising to keep it about "ideas" and not about the other guests.

[MickeyS]

I believe that what I had in mind was based on the history of this forum that I have observed over the years.

I have seen a tendency of many guests to run out of support for what they believe, and so they will get personal in their comments about other guests.

I also have noticed that many guests that come here from other forums where they were recently banned have tried to do the same things here that got them banned at the other forum.
This means that they start fights here and use language that they know full well will only result in getting themselves banned from here too.
In other words, that came here only wanting to continue their bad behavior patterns, and have no intention of becoming valued members of this forum.

They come here and treat this site as a disposable waiting room....

Being that I've never had support for what I believe....I don't think this applies either. I seriously am wasting my time though....why would I keep doing that, besides pride? Yes, my stupid pride, I'm roped into inaccurate ***umptions about me personally so I keep trying to correct them....it will never happen, I know this now...like I said...I have one more post to make about Bible verses (which I KNOW will be ridiculed and ignored) but I have to close this out so I can say, hey, at least I tried right? Also, I was sincerely looking for answers to questions about scripture that support what I believe in, I would like to know WHY you don't acknowledge those scriptures...if theres a reason, something I'm missing....but nobody's ever going to tell me...so, pointless

But again, I have NEVER been a member of another forum, so I can honestly say this doesn't apply to me anyway. NOW....again, I would like my account deleted simply because my pride keeps getting the best of me and when more inaccurate allegations of my personal character are produced, I have a very hard time not defending myself. But looks like I'm going to have to get over that, because for some reason you don't delete accounts, I never knew that. I didn't see that stipulation anywhere when I joined, next time, I'll be more careful of what I'm signing on for.

[MickeyS]

I was always told to-
hate the sin, but love the sinner.





I know a lot of people seem to be very curious about what they can get away with?

This can only lead to a race to the bottom....

A compe***ion to see who can get away with the most before they end up in trouble...where guests try their best to skirt the lowest end of what is within the rules and proper for this forum.


My answer is this:
I have seen that it is a lot harder to drag a person up and out of the ditch than it is for the person to get dragged down into the ditch.
Going down hill is a lot more easy.

That didn't answer my question....why does Christian not get reprimanded for breaking the rules? It's a simple question, but I understand you have the right to ignore or deflect your way through anything I have to say. I don't WANT to get away with anything, I have been as respectful to others as they have been with me. I don't like to call anybody names, but ... pride, I know....when somebody is calling me names and insulting me, I don't see the point in being courteous around them. I have restrained myself REMARKABLY through what he says...and I'm not whining, unless you call what he does whining because he's constantly making digs on the personal character of others...in that case, he's the whiniest person here.

[alanmolstad]

That didn't answer my question....why does Christian not get reprimanded for breaking the rules? It's a simple question, but I understand you have the right to ignore or deflect your way through anything I have to say. I don't WANT to get away with anything, I have been as respectful to others as they have been with me. I don't like to call anybody names, but ... pride, I know....when somebody is calling me names and insulting me, I don't see the point in being courteous around them. I have restrained myself REMARKABLY through what he says...and I'm not whining, unless you call what he does whining because he's constantly making digs on the personal character of others...in that case, he's the whiniest person here.



at some point in this I do remember posting that I don't even read the comments that are just so much "he said/ she said" back and forth bickering.

It reminds me of how kids get caught doing something wrong and try to deflect the blame by pointing out the flaws in others.

The error in that, is that when you start basing your standard of behavior on only being able to find someone you think is worse that this means you will never think you need to improve yourself.
All of us can point to some type of Hitler and say, "He was still worse that what I did" if we just want to make ourselves look better compared to others.


But I want to actually improve.....

When you actually want to improve yourself, you stop comparing yourself to others and deal only with learning how to become the person you could be.

[MickeyS]

mickey posted:

Oh.....but I did address you there at the bottom Big C, cuz you keep going on and on about how I'm not answering your questions...so
I'll be back, since this cult of a forum apparently doesn't let you quit once you've joined...they refuse to delete my account...fine. But I'll be back with answers specific to the scriptures you posted even, like I usually do.


When will you START your 'usually do?

So far you haven't.


You cannot say I'm afraid to answer questions because I'm not....never have been.

You sure APPEAR to be afraid to try to answer the SCRIPTURES I have posted. EVERY TIME.

Then I'll leave, because there's no point to being here, I'm getting nothing out of it and have no idea what your take is on the many scriptures that explain our beliefs and contradict yours. And you all never will answer so what's the point really besides wasting my life? It's not because I'm stupid, stupidity would be explaining myself over and over and over again thinking somebody's going to listen to me.

Nobody listens to your stupid SPECULATIONS. Perhaps if you had SCRIPTURE to support you, you might do better. . .

But there will be no doubt when I leave, that I have not left a question unanswered

When your 'answers' are nothing more than YOUR OPINIONS and CRAZY SPECULATIONS, we ignore them. IF you could only TRY to find something in the BIBLE that supports your speculations. . .but of course you cannot.

Instead, you are a 'natural man' described here:

1 Cor 2:14-15
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
NKJV

You CLEARLY do not understand the Bible, the WORD OF GOD and will fall for any manure your cult feeds you.



Here you go...I am answering your question about those Isaiah verses, but if you read these verses in context with what is being said, you would see these verses are talking about those who worship false gods and idols...Since we believe only ONE God created us and and everything....this actually doesn't apply to us.

Isaiah 43:10*Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

There is only ONE God....He made EVERYTHING. Christ is His son and His servant, He is united in purpose with the Father. Everything He has done, has been under the Father’s direction. Under the guidance of God, Jesus Christ created this world. Isaiah was speaking to all who would worship idols and false gods, there are no other gods to us or over us...and there never will be, He will ALWAYS be our God and Creator. That will NEVER change.

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Speaking of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ...He was present before the beginning of the world and He will be present at the last day. He is the Alpha and Omega. Beside Him there is no other way by which salvation can come. Again...Isaiah was admonishing others to not worship false gods and idols...There is only ONE God over us all.

Isaiah 44:8*Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Again...he is teaching against false gods and idols...This whole section is about false idols..how do we know? We only need to go on to see that

Isaiah 44:9 They that make a graven image are all of them vanity; and their delectable things shall not profit; and they are their own witnesses; they see not, nor know; that they may be ashamed.
10 Who hath formed a god, or molten a graven image that is profitable for nothing?
11 Behold, all his fellows shall be ashamed: and the workmen, they are of men: let them all be gathered together, let them stand up; yet they shall fear, and they shall be ashamed together.

There is only ONE God, ONE that created all. Jesus Christ is His servant, He is subordinate to Him. He was very clear that He SERVES the Father. Jesus Christ is more than man, He had to be to be the perfect sacrifice and to have created all UNDER HIS FATHERS DIRECTION. And God has to be separate from Jesus Christ, or Christ would not have been able to come to earth and take a body, not know all things, and experience humanity. All things go through The Son from The Father (the perfect chain of command) it didn't start when He came to earth...it started in the beginning. Through Jesus Christ, God created the earth, interacted with man (the God of Israel) and atoned for our sins. In the end, God again acts through Jesus Christ to resurrect us with our bodies. When He has acted and spoken as God The Father(divine inves***ure) He was still doing what GOD commanded Him...the ONLY God...there is only ONE GOD. We worship that ONE God. We do not worship any other God. One God.

Working in perfect unity with God and Christ, the Holy Ghost witnesses, reveals, comforts, teaches, guides and protects us. He is our constant companion, and has no body of flesh and bones, this is how He can dwell within us, and always be with us. I personally look at it as a perfect team. God calls ALL the shots, but He uses Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost to carry out all He does. Jesus Christ carries out the physical (Creation, Atonement, Resurrection) and the Holy Ghost takes care of the spiritual.

We do not believe they are one in substance, but one in purpose. One God, the Godhead, The Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ and The Holy Ghost. In scripture the number three means God...the number four means man (creation etc..)...the number seven thus means perfection and completion (seven days, seven seals)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ being a separate, obedient servant of God
John 15:19*Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things whatsoever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

This not only shows that He is a faithful servant to His Father,it states that He can do NOTHING by himself. Do you believe the Father can do nothing by Himself? If you don’t, than you can’t believe in the trinity because the trinity states all three components must be present to exist.

This also shows that the Son does what he SEETH the Father do. This shows two things...
1 - Unless He was looking in a mirror, He cannot see what He Himself is doing.
2 - God has a BODY.

John 6:38*For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

Again....Christ is quite clear that He serves beneath the Father.

Matthew 19:17*And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

“NONE GOOD BUT ONE”and He is not talking about Himself...so He’s talking about....somebody else. He is subordinate to the Father and a SEPARATE individual.

John 14:28*Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

“I go unto my Father” “my Father is greater than I” How are is one greater or lesser than the other if they are THE SAME PERSON?

And, because I don’t have time to keep screwing around here...I get no real answers...this was a HUGE question I have for you all that will never be answered about God not having a body

If Christ and God are ONE PERSON, and Christ was resurrected with His PHYSICAL BODY...trinitarians must believe God has a body...right? He must.

There are so many things and so many verses that show them to be individuals, but not one person wants to explain WHY NONE of these verses are believed, or at least provide a different interpretation....

I PROVIDED AN ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION AND I PROVIDED SCRIPTURE....AGAIN

I will leave you, with this quote and another question I never got an answer on...this is the same question I asked worded differently from Jeffrey R Holland about the belief that God has no body

“If the idea of an embodied God is repugnant, why are the central doctrines and singularly most distinguishing characteristics of all Christianity the Incarnation, the Atonement, and the physical Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ? If having a body is not only not needed but not desirable by Deity, why did the Redeemer of mankind redeem His body, redeeming it from the grasp of death and the grave, guaranteeing it would never again be separated from His spirit in time or eternity?”

Like I said before....seems to me God thinks a physical body is VERY important.

And again....all things will be revealed, so all these bickerings won't matter one little bit.

Edited today 11/1- please let me know what I can provide to continue a sincere civil discussion, thanks Christian, I would appreciate it~

[alanmolstad]

So this wasn't directed towards me....duly noted, thank you.


http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?3679-Mormon-quot-Magic-Underwear-quot&p=165492#post165492

see post number #5 for some background on what I am talking about...

[MickeyS]

http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?3679-Mormon-quot-Magic-Underwear-quot&p=165492#post165492

see post number #5 for some background on what I am talking about...

Seriously Alan....I really don't care

[alanmolstad]

Seriously Alan....I really don't care

I have no doubt of that...and that other poster?
He does not seem to care too...

[MickeyS]

I have no doubt of that...and that other poster?
He does not seem to care too...

Oh I'm sorry, I should have been more clear...I don't care about what YOU have to say, because you seriously say a WHOLE lot of nothing :)

[alanmolstad]

Oh I'm sorry, I should have been more clear...I don't care about what YOU have to say, because you seriously say a WHOLE lot of nothing :)Well that is different then from the other guy.
He truly does seem to care a great deal what I say....he goes on and on about it....

[MickeyS]

...that other poster?
He does not seem to care too...


Well that is different then from the other guy
He truly does seem to care a great deal what I say....he goes on and on about it....

Just so you know, this is exactly why I can't take anything you say seriously. You can't keep anything straight.

[Christian]

Just so you know, this is exactly why I can't take anything you say seriously. You can't keep anything straight.

Methinks you take yourself too seriously. I would have said the same type of thing about YOU.

[dberrie2000]

mickey posted:

The scriptures use different terms to describe how we are sons & daughters of God & Jesus Christ

We are all literal spirit children of Heavenly Father
Acts 17:29 - We are offspring of God

Adopted, of course. . .

Just a quick point here, Christian.

The adoption takes place years after the spirit is already in the body. Pointing to the adoption in no way accounts for the origin of the spirit--this does:

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

So--is that some spirits--or all spirits?

If just some--could you reveal to us what other god you feel is the Father of the remainder of spirits?