Eternal ****ation

[Grandma]

Does anyone know what eternal ****ation is?

[alanmolstad]

Does anyone know what eternal ****ation is?
Being a Vikings fan?

[Grandma]

Being a Vikings fan?


Ha! Ha! I meant the Mormon idea.

[theway]

Does anyone know what eternal ****ation is?Easy....
****ation is eternal spiritual death. In other words, eternal separation from The Father.

[Grandma]

To be halted in one's progression. The root word in ****ation is dam, the same word with the same meaning as to what beavers and people build. A dam stops the flow of water, eternal ****ation stops the flow of progression. Many evangelicals erroneously believe it means to face hellfire forever, even going so far as to believe souls will literally be on fire forever. Since ****ation is from God, the Eternal One, it is called eternal ****ation, indicating who gives the punishment.

Word Origin and History for ****ation
n.
c.1300, "condemnation to Hell by God," also "fact of being condemned by judicial sentence," from Old French ****ation, from Latin ****ationem (nominative ****atio), noun of action from past participle stem of ****are (see **** ). As an imprecation, attested from c.1600.
Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2010 Douglas Harper

That Mormon definition and supposed etymology is bizarre.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[Grandma]

Easy....
****ation is eternal spiritual death. In other words, eternal separation from The Father.

I agree that there is eternal separation from God.

But if people have spiritual death, why would they be sent to a "kingdom of glory?"

And how can a kingdom be glorious without God?

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[theway]

I agree that there is eternal separation from God.

But if people have spiritual death, why would they be sent to a "kingdom of glory?"

And how can a kingdom be glorious without God?

In Christian Love,

GrandmaIts more of a "degree" of Glory or happiness/joy.

In a worldly understanding, it's much the same as degrees of love.

When you were very young you LOVED your parents the same way you loved ice cream. it was probably a hard choice at that age between the two.
Then when you came into your young adult years you fell in Love. This love seemed far greater in intensity than any type of Love you had in your childhood. In fact, you would gladly leave the love of your parents for this new type of LOVE.
Then when you begin to have children and raise a family you experienced a greater type of love. One in which you would gladly give up your life and all you had, just for their happiness.

Now you are old. You are laying in a hospital bed longing for the company of those you love and who have loved you.
Yet you are not allowed to receive any visits. You will not be able to be in the presence of your father, mother, husband, or children ever again.

Instead the nurse brings you a bowl of ice cream....


That ice cream you thought you LOVED as a child, suddenly does not look so grand or glorious.

[Grandma]

So you've never heard of a dam? Having your eternal progression stopped is the exact same thing as spiritual death. Its not bizarre at all, its called common sense.


The word dam has nothing to do with it. That's a Mormon invention.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[Grandma]

Its more of a "degree" of Glory or happiness/joy.

In a worldly understanding, it's much the same as degrees of love.

When you were very young you LOVED your parents the same way you loved ice cream. it was probably a hard choice at that age between the two.
Then when you came into your young adult years you fell in Love. This love seemed far greater in intensity than any type of Love you had in your childhood. In fact, you would gladly leave the love of your parents for this new type of LOVE.
Then when you begin to have children and raise a family you experienced a greater type of love. One in which you would gladly give up your life and all you had, just for their happiness.

Now you are old. You are laying in a hospital bed longing for the company of those you love and who have loved you.
Yet you are not allowed to receive any visits. You will not be able to be in the presence of your father, mother, husband, or children ever again.

Instead the nurse brings you a bowl of ice cream....


That ice cream you thought you LOVED as a child, suddenly does not look so grand or glorious.

The wages of sin is not a reward of lesser glory or any glory.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[theway]

The wages of sin is not a reward of lesser glory or any glory.

In Christian Love,

Grandma
The wages of sin is death..... Didn't I just say that Eternal ****ation is spiritual "DEATH"???
Once again you are using scripture without a clear understanding of what you are posting.

[Grandma]

The wages of sin is death..... Didn't I just say that Eternal ****ation is spiritual "DEATH"???
Once again you are using scripture without a clear understanding of what you are posting.


Yes, so why are the eternally ****ed in the Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms?

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[Grandma]

They can't progress beyond a certain point. Pretty obvious.


Wicked people are warned about the consequences of sin, and it won't be a Kingdom of Glory!

[theway]

Yes, so why are the eternally ****ed in the Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms?

In Christian Love,

GrandmaBecause in those Kingdoms they will be forever out of the presence of the Father and His glory.... That is called "spiritual death" or ****ation. Whether they are in a gilded cage, or being tortured sitting in a lake of fire does not matter, they will still be spiritually dead!
In essence, there are three levels of Hell or spiritual death, yet there is only one place where both spiritual death and physical death no longer exist. I tend to look at it that way.

[theway]

Wicked people are warned about the consequences of sin, and it won't be a Kingdom of Glory!
But why??? If under your beliefs being warned about the consequences of sin, or even casting off one's sins after learning about the consequences, will not make the slightest bit of difference as to whether God will save you? Except if God enjoys mocking those He has no intention of saving by dangling a carrot in front of them but never letting them have it.
This demonstrates yet more of the paradoxes and contradictions of your beliefs.

[Grandma]

But why??? If under your beliefs being warned about the consequences of sin, or even casting off one's sins after learning about the consequences, will not make the slightest bit of difference as to whether God will save you? Except if God enjoys mocking those He has no intention of saving by dangling a carrot in front of them but never letting them have it.
This demonstrates yet more of the paradoxes and contradictions of your beliefs.

Maybe, just maybe, you'll come to understand God's methods of bring the elect to Him.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[theway]

Maybe, just maybe, you'll come to understand God's methods of bring the elect to Him.

In Christian Love,

GrandmaI've asked you to explain it, but so far all you have given me is pla***udes, contradictions, and paradoxes.
Once again my question was a simple one...
What is the point of a changed heart if that does not decide whether one is saved, nor will it cause one to either lose or keep your salvation once you have lt?

[Grandma]

I've asked you to explain it, but so far all you have given me is pla***udes, contradictions, and paradoxes.
Once again my question was a simple one...
What is the point of a changed heart if that does not decide whether one is saved, nor will it cause one to either lose or keep your salvation once you have lt?

You came here for entertainment and to annoy, but certainly not to learn. If you really wanted to learn something you'd do it on your own.

[Grandma]

So you think Paul lied about there being different degrees of glory?

Paul didn't lie and he didn't teach about three kingdoms with different levels. Paul never used the word Telestial for ANYTHING. The words that Paul wrote came from God.

Paul taught us about two bodies: the natural one that we have on earth (that will decompose) and the spiritual one that is resurrected and immortal. (1 Cor. 15)

Jesus explained that His sheep will be on His right and the wicked (represented as goats) will be on this left. He eternally separates good from evil. (Matt. 25)

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[Grandma]

“Eternal ****ation is the opposite of eternal life, and all those who do not gain eternal life, or exaltation in the highest heaven within the celestial kingdom, are partakers of eternal ****ation. Their eternal condemnation is to have limitations imposed upon them so that they cannot progress to the state of godhood and gain a fulness of all things...

“They are never redeemed from their spiritual fall and taken back into the full presence and glory of God. Only the obedient are ‘raised in immortality unto eternal life.’ The disobedient, ‘they that believe not,’ are raised in immortality ‘unto eternal ****ation; for they cannot be redeemed from their spiritual fall, because they repent not.’ (D. & C. 29:42–44.)” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 234.)
Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, (2002), 37

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[theway]

You came here for entertainment and to annoy, but certainly not to learn. If you really wanted to learn something you'd do it on your own.In other words... You can not reconcile your unbiblical paradox, so it must be my fault because I just haven't studied enough???

But then aren't you really blaming God for your failings. Because under your theology of "God does it all" the fact that I do not understand something would have to be because God has not given it to me. Isn't that just like an AntiMormon to blame everybody else including God, but they will never blame themselves and their heretical opinions...
Which puts us back to my original question.

What good does learning something on my own do, if it will not change my status with God one wit, nor will it add to my salvation?
Under your theology, God has either already chosen me for salvation or God has already chosen me for ****ation. Which means that your attempts to change who I am and what I believe right now, would be an attempt to defy God's Will for me, by trying to change me into something that God did not want me to be.
Why do you fight against the will of God by being here?

[Grandma]

Paul was not talking about earthly bodies. Read the chapter. He was talking about our bodies post-resurrection. What they become AFTER this life. The three bodies go to their respective kingdoms. Telestial's root word is teles, a about Greek word, meaning furthest away. Paul described 3 bodies and kingdoms, not 2: those whose glory are comparable to the sun, those to on the moon, and those to the stars.

Yes, let's read the chapter again:

First Paul wants to convince them that there is a resurrection of the dead:

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Why is Paul willing to take such risks as preaching the gospel in places where he might be killed?

29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? 30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? 31I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. 32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. 33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. 34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Verses 35-41 speak of all the differences in creation, and humans obviously won't be raised as birds or fish or planets.

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

These verses are very important:

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is (1)sown in corruption; it is(2) raised in incorruption: 43 It is (1)sown in dishonour; it is (2)raised in glory: it is (1)sown in weakness; it is (2)raised in power: 44 It is (1)sown a natural body; it is(2) raised a spiritual body. (1)There is a natural body, and(2) there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the (1)earthy, we shall also bear the image of the (2)heavenly.

There are two kinds of human bodies: (1)corruptible and (2)incorruptible.

I pray that you see that.

In Kindness and Christian Love,

Grandma

[theway]

Yes, let's read the chapter again:

First Paul wants to convince them that there is a resurrection of the dead:

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Why is Paul willing to take such risks as preaching the gospel in places where he might be killed?

29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? 30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? 31I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. 32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. 33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. 34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Verses 35-41 speak of all the differences in creation, and humans obviously won't be raised as birds or fish or planets.

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

These verses are very important:

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is (1)sown in corruption; it is(2) raised in incorruption: 43 It is (1)sown in dishonour; it is (2)raised in glory: it is (1)sown in weakness; it is (2)raised in power: 44 It is (1)sown a natural body; it is(2) raised a spiritual body. (1)There is a natural body, and(2) there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the (1)earthy, we shall also bear the image of the (2)heavenly.

There are two kinds of human bodies: (1)corruptible and (2)incorruptible.

I pray that you see that.

In Kindness and Christian Love,

GrandmaYou are guilty of the fallacy of "Presentism". In other words, you are guilty of prescribing present day terms and mores to the Bible. You need to understand the Bible as those to which it given would have understood it. Fortunately there exists a lot of writings of the Early Christian Fathers on the meaning of this exact verse.... Here are just a few...


Our understanding of the p***age indeed is, that the Apostle, wishing to describe the great difference among those who rise again in glory, i.e., of the saints, borrowed a comparison from the heavenly bodies, saying, "One is the glory of the sun, another the glory of the moon, another the glory of the stars."
Origen, De Principiis 2:10:2, in ANF 4:294.


Conformably, therefore, there are various abodes, according to the worth of those who have believed . . . . These chosen abodes, which are three, are indicated by the numbers in the Gospel--the thirty, the sixty, the hundred. And the perfect inheritance belongs to those who attain to "a perfect man," according to the image of the Lord . . . . To the likeness of God, then, he that is introduced into adoption and the friendship of God, to the just inheritance of the lords and gods is brought; if he be perfected, according to the Gospel, as the Lord Himself taught.
Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 6:14, in ANF 2:506.


And as the presbyters say, Then those who are deemed worthy of an abode in heaven shall go there, others shall enjoy the delights of paradise, and others shall possess the splendour of the city; for everywhere the Saviour shall be seen according as they who see Him shall be worthy. [They say, moreover], that there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce an hundred-fold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold: for the first will be taken up into the heavens, the second will dwell in paradise, the last will inhabit the city; and that was on this account the Lord declared, "In My Father's house are many mansions." For all things belong to God, who supplies all with a suitable dwelling-place; even as His Word says, that a share is allotted to all by the Father, according as each person is or shall be worthy. And this is the couch on which the guests shall recline, having been invited to the wedding. The presbyters, the disciples of the Apostles, affirm that this is the gradation and arrangement of those who are saved, and that they advance through steps of this nature; also that they ascend through the Spirit to the Son, and through the Son to the Father, and that in due time the Son will yield up His work to the Father, even as it is said by the Apostle, "For He must reign till He hath put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:36:1-2, in ANF 1:567, brackets in original.

There are others, so if you want to know the truth then simply research it further.
And as I have already told you, do not rely on Evangelical commentaries or understandings of theBible, they tend to make things up to try and fit their heresies.

[Grandma]

You are guilty of the fallacy of "Presentism". In other words, you are guilty of prescribing present day terms and mores to the Bible. You need to understand the Bible as those to which it given would have understood it. Fortunately there exists a lot of writings of the Early Christian Fathers on the meaning of this exact verse.... Here are just a few...


There are others, so if you want to know the truth then simply research it further.
And as I have already told you, do not rely on Evangelical commentaries or understandings of theBible, they tend to make things up to try and fit their heresies.

I didn't use an Evangelical commentary --- I relied on the Holy Spirit. You are using heresies to support your false teachings.

[theway]

I didn't use an Evangelical commentary --- I relied on the Holy Spirit. You are using heresies to support your false teachings.What heresies? You must think that Early Church Fathers such as Clement of Alexandrea, Origen, Irenaeus, and John Chrysostom were heretics then! If that is true then there must have been a complete apostisy from the faith early on.
The belief in Three or Seven Heavens has long been a Judeo-Christian belief up till about the fifth or sixth Century when it was replaced by a more pagan Greek philosophy. In fact the arguements against this revelation by Joseph Smith's early critics was that he must of stole the idea from some Bible Scholar or he must have got ahold of a book on Early Christian beliefs somewhere.
Haven't you wondered why the only argument you could find against it on your AntiMormon site, was not that such a doctrine never existed amoung the early Church, but some weak argument that Joseph Smith simply made-up the name for the Telestial Kingdom because it wasn't in the Bible?
I also find it telling that you did not have any evidence to refute me and thereby put the big mean Mormon in his place. Instead you say that the "Holy Ghost told me so" thereby you think this allows you to ignore all historical facts or Bible truths.... Critics love to say this about us.
As I said, I'm three steps ahead of you, I know the aurguments you are going to cookie cut from your AntiMormon sites before you do.

[Grandma]

What heresies? You must think that Early Church Fathers such as Clement of Alexandrea, Origen, Irenaeus, and John Chrysostom were heretics then! If that is true then there must have been a complete apostisy from the faith early on.

Why would you say there was a complete apostasy? Did all of those men have the Holy Spirit? Are their writings scripture?



The belief in Three or Seven Heavens has long been a Judeo-Christian belief up till about the fifth or sixth Century when it was replaced by a more pagan Greek philosophy.

Where does the Bible says that every heaven is a dwelling place for resurrected humans? No where! Jesus never once taught that.



In fact the arguements against this revelation by Joseph Smith's early critics was that he must of stole the idea from some Bible Scholar or he must have got ahold of a book on Early Christian beliefs somewhere.

I don't care one iota what his critica rhought or said.



Haven't you wondered why the only argument you could find against it on your AntiMormon site, was not that such a doctrine never existed amoung the early Church, but some weak argument that Joseph Smith simply made-up the name for the Telestial Kingdom because it wasn't in the Bible?

I don't need sites that are critical of Mormonism. I use lds.org.




I also find it telling that you did not have any evidence to refute me and thereby put the big mean Mormon in his place.

Are you the big mean Mormon you're referring to? If you are, should I tremble? Paul didn't concern himself with those who didn't like him and had power to put him in prison. He knew what the Lord had called him to do and he went out and did it.




Instead you say that the "Holy Ghost told me so" thereby you think this allows you to ignore all historical facts or Bible truths....

History isn't always accurate.



Critics love to say this about us.
As I said, I'm three steps ahead of you, I know the aurguments you are going to cookie cut from your AntiMormon sites before you do.

I'm not even here to argue. What exactly is it that critics say about you?


In Chtistian Love,

Grandma

[theway]

Why would you say there was a complete apostasy? Did all of those men have the Holy Spirit? Are their writings scripture? Well obviously if your contention is that the belief in multiple degrees of Heaven, or that works such as water baptism being required to enter Heaven are heretical beliefs; then you are in fact saying that all of early Christianity was in a complete apostasy as every one of the early Christian Fathers, and all the early writings of the Christian Church dealing with these questions, were universal in the teachings that both were true.
Your interpretation of the Bible is a modern interpretation. Unfortunately, most new interpretation and versions of the Bible happen to be Evangelical or Calvanist in nature and either completely interpret it wrong, or water scripture down to the point where it is meaningless and contradictory.
And yes, many of the Early Church Father's writings were taken as scriptures in the early Church; as well as other books which did not make it into the Modern Protestant version of the Bible. Books such as The Shephard, which talked about multiple Heavens, was considered scripture or as an instruction manual for new believers in Christ clear up until the Sixth Century. Once again you are guilty of the fallacy of Presentism by thinking that the Bible the way you have it was the Bible the same way as the rest of Christianity has had it. In fact your 66 book version of the Bible was only put together less than 200 years ago, and even today is used by a minority of Christians.


Where does the Bible says that every heaven is a dwelling place for resurrected humans? No where! Jesus never once taught that.what are you talking about??? You yourself posted it...

1 Cor. 40-41
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

And here...

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

And here...

2Cor. 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.


I don't need sites that are critical of Mormonism. I use lds.org. The scriptures may be from the Bible or from the LDS, however every one of your arguments, interpretations, and theories against the LDS you use are straight out of the AntiMormon playbook. This is how I always know what you are going to say next.


History isn't always accurate. True... However isn't it a convenient coincidence that every bit of history which discredits you is wrong, but every bit of history that you agree with is right? I will take history at face value and let the chips fall where they may. I don't always agree with history, but unlike you, I don't deny that that is what they may have believed was the truth.


I'm not even here to argue.
In Chtistian Love,
GrandmaWhat you mean is that you do not want to argue, however, you want us to just sit here and say "thank you sir, may I have another?". That does not fly here, if you make an accusation or state a belief, you'd better be able to back it up.
Yet you have not even given us as little as your own opinion. All you do is post useless pla***udes, cookie cut opinions of others, "the Holy Ghost told me so", or you post scripture which has nothing to do with the conversation and without telling us your interpretation of them. All this tells us is that you have no real understanding of what you are talking about.

[Grandma]

Correct verses, incorrect explanation. Literally right after the 3 glories are compared to the sun, moon, and stars Paul refers to them as the bodies of the resurrected, the ones of incorruption. To give an example, the ancient Testament of Levi, a document from the BC era, testifies that there is not one heaven, but multiple heavens.

Christ names only one heaven and one hell as destinations of the righteous(sheep) and the wicked(goats).

The righteous(all His sheep) have all spiritual blessings. Do Mormons reject what doesn't fit with Joseph Smith's ideas?

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[alanmolstad]

Christ names only one heaven and one hell as destinations of the righteous(sheep) and the wicked(goats).

The righteous(all His sheep) have all spiritual blessings......
Grandma

so true....

Good post!

[theway]

so true....

Good post!
That is not true and has never been true... I have no idea where you got that nonsense???

[Christian]

To be halted in one's progression. The root word in ****ation is dam, the same word with the same meaning as to what beavers and people build. A dam stops the flow of water, eternal ****ation stops the flow of progression. Many evangelicals erroneously believe it means to face hellfire forever, even going so far as to believe souls will literally be on fire forever. Since ****ation is from God, the Eternal One, it is called eternal ****ation, indicating who gives the punishment.


So the mormons think '****ation' means a 'country that is cursed?' HOW STUPID IS THAT? as Jay Leno would say!!!!!!:rolleyes:


When CHRISTIANS refer to eternal ****ation, they might be talking about the following p***ages:

Mark 9:43-44
It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched — 44 where
'Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.'
NKJV


Mark 9:45-46
It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched — 46 where
'Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.'
NKJV


Mark 9:47-48
It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire — 48 where
'Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.'
NKJV

Matt 25:46
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
NKJV

Of course mormons (ignorant in the Scriptures) don't understand. . .

It has nothing at all to do with 'progression' or your desire to attain 'godhood' for yourself (a SELFISH desire if there ever was one).

[Grandma]

Wrong again. Read all the scriptures, not just some. Deuteronomy 10, 1 Kings 8, 2 Chronicles 2 and 6, Nehamiah 9, and Psalms 68, 115, and 148 refer to the "heaven of heavens" or do these not count since they prove you wrong?

There are heavens that are not dwelling places of God and His righteous followers. The heaven of heavens is where God dwells.

Psalm 102:25 “Of old You laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.”

The earth's atmosphere is called the heavens: Deuteronomy 28:12: “The LORD will open the heavens, the storehouse of his bounty, to send rain on your land in season and to bless all the work of your hands.”

Outer space is a heaven: Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

God's dwelling place is called heaven or heaven of heavens. 1 Kings 8:30 And hearken thou to the supplication of thy servant, and of thy people Israel, when they shall pray toward this place: and hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place: and when thou hearest, forgive.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[theway]

There are heavens that are not dwelling places of God and His righteous followers. The heaven of heavens is where God dwells.

Psalm 102:25 “Of old You laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.”

The earth's atmosphere is called the heavens: Deuteronomy 28:12: “The LORD will open the heavens, the storehouse of his bounty, to send rain on your land in season and to bless all the work of your hands.”

Outer space is a heaven: Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

God's dwelling place is called heaven or heaven of heavens. 1 Kings 8:30 And hearken thou to the supplication of thy servant, and of thy people Israel, when they shall pray toward this place: and hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place: and when thou hearest, forgive.

In Christian Love,

GrandmaSimply spouting the same erroneous theories by modern Evangelicals who do not understand the Bible does not impress me, or anyone else. This understanding was only made up a few years ago.
I already gave you the meaning of the verses as it was meant to be understood... If you still wish to crawl up in the fetal position, rock back and forth saying "it's not true... It's not true" that is your prerogative.

[Grandma]

Simply spouting the same erroneous theories by modern Evangelicals who do not understand the Bible does not impress me, or anyone else. This understanding was only made up a few years ago.
I already gave you the meaning of the verses as it was meant to be understood... If you still wish to crawl up in the fetal position, rock back and forth saying "it's not true... It's not true" that is your prerogative.

I wasn't aware that I had to impress you. You ignore truth and think I'm here to impress people?

In Christian love,

Grandma

[Grandma]

Second, becoming gods is an ancient doctrine that was WIDELY taught in the original church. Its called deification. The early church fathers taught this doctrine as it comes from...you guessed it...the scriptures.

They taught theosis which refers to men becoming completely sanctified. Talk to an Orthodox priest. He knows more about it than Mormons do. The scriptures were WIDELY taught. Becoming gods was NEVER taught! You're ignoring the scripture in Isaiah 43:10. The early Christians didn't and the Eastern Orthodox don't.

Isaiah 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.


Of course Mormons, having been ranked more knowledgeable of the Bible than any other Christian denomination, understand.

I don't see that in my Bible. Denominations have groups of believers, newly converted Christians, and unbelievers. You can claim that your church has more knowledge thereby pretending superiority, but the Holy Spirit speaks to genuine Christians who love God's word.

Psalm 119:11
"Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee."

Happy Labor Day!

In Christian love,

Grandma

[Grandma]

What scripture indicates the kingdom of God and outer space are the only heavens? None

I NEVER said there are only two heavens. Rain comes from clouds --- the atmosphere around the earth.

Outer space is referred to as the firmament of heaven; it's filled with heavenly bodies.

heavenly body › any ​object ​existing in ​space, ​especially a ​planet, ​star, or the ​moon
(Definition of heavenly body from the Cambridge Advanced Learner’s Dictionary & Thesaurus © Cambridge University Press)


God's dwelling place is the third heaven.

In Christian love,

Grandma

[Christian]

There are heavens that are not dwelling places of God and His righteous followers. The heaven of heavens is where God dwells.

Psalm 102:25 “Of old You laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.”

The earth's atmosphere is called the heavens: Deuteronomy 28:12: “The LORD will open the heavens, the storehouse of his bounty, to send rain on your land in season and to bless all the work of your hands.”

Outer space is a heaven: Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

God's dwelling place is called heaven or heaven of heavens. 1 Kings 8:30 And hearken thou to the supplication of thy servant, and of thy people Israel, when they shall pray toward this place: and hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place: and when thou hearest, forgive.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

God IS THERE in all of the heavens you mentioned.

The Jews knew three heavens. . .

the sky where the birts flew

the sky where the sun, moon, and stars are

and God's home.

Pretty much like you said, yet GOD IS THERE all of the time in the first two heavens.

[Christian]

the kid posted:
becoming gods is an ancient doctrine that was WIDELY taught in the original church. Its called deification. The early church fathers taught this doctrine as it comes from...you guessed it...the scriptures.

More than one heretic has taught such a thing. You cannot quote ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE that says you can be 'exalted to godhood,' and no CHRISTIAN fathers taught any such thing.

I noticed you are PATENTLY UNABLE to find ONE MENTION OF YOUR "exaltation to godhood" in ANY CHURCH FATHER OF THE FIRST CENTURY, AND OF COURSE

You CANNOT CITE ANYTHING AT ALL to support your made-up claims.

Of course Mormons, having been ranked more knowledgeable of the Bible than any other Christian denomination, understand.

THAT is the FUNNIEST JOKE I HAVE HEARD IN A LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG TIME!

You mormons may 'rank' yourselves any way you want, but your 'ranking' is a joke. NOBODY believes you except your mormon cronies.

As for knowledge of the Bible, most BAPTISTS, or LUTHERANS or PRESBYTERIANS know MULTIPLE TIMES what your average mormons know.

A pathetic LACK OF SCRIPTURAL KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTANDING is why mormons can't leave their cult.

[Grandma]

God IS THERE in all of the heavens you mentioned.

The Jews knew three heavens. . .

the sky where the birts flew

the sky where the sun, moon, and stars are

and God's home.

Pretty much like you said, yet GOD IS THERE all of the time in the first two heavens.

It's true that God is omnipresent, but some verses say: "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." John 14:3

"Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me." John 7:33


Love in Christ,

Grandma

[Grandma]

Justin Martyr:
"To prove to you that the Holy Ghost reproaches men because they were made like God, free from suffering and death, provided that they kept His commandments, and were deemed deserving of the name of His sons... in the beginning men were made like God, free from suffering and death, and that they are thus deemed worthy of becoming gods and of having power to become sons of the highest."

"[By Psalm 82] it is demonstrated that all men are deemed worthy of becoming “gods,” and even of having power to become sons of the Highest."
Hippolytus:
"Now in all these acts He offered up, as the first-fruits, His own manhood, in order that thou, when thou art in tribulation, mayest not be disheartened, but, confessing thyself to be a man (of like nature with the Redeemer,) mayest dwell in expectation of also receiving what the Father has granted unto this Son...The Deity (by condescension) does not diminish anything of the dignity of His divine perfection having made you even God unto his glory."

Athanasius:
"The Word was made flesh in order that we might be enabled to be made gods....just as the Lord, putting on the body, became a man, so also we men are both deified through His flesh, and henceforth inherit everlasting life...[we are] sons and gods by reason of the word in us."

"For as Christ died and was exalted as man, so, as man, is He said to take what, as God, He ever had, that even such a grant of grace might reach to us. For the Word was not impaired in receiving a body, that He should seek to receive a grace, but rather He deified that which He put on, and more than that, gave it graciously to the race of man."

Augustine:
"But He himself that justifies also deifies, for by justifying He makes sons of God. For He has given them power to become the sons of God, (John 1:12). If then we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods."

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."
2 Corinthians 5:21

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"
2 Thessalonians 2:13

"Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ."
1 Corinthians 1:8

Those are words from God instead of man.


Love because of Christ,

Grandma

[theway]

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."
2 Corinthians 5:21


Love because of Christ,

GrandmaAsk a priest??? He just gave you multiple quotes from Priests...
What you probably meant was to say was... Ask a Priest that you agree with.
Becoming a god is the goal of every believer in Christ... (These are not my words)
The problem with some modern Christians is that they have forgotten this; although the majority of Christians still have it on their books as a belief, they just don't preach it any more.

[Grandma]

Ask a priest??? He just gave you multiple quotes from Priests...
What you probably meant was to say was... Ask a Priest that you agree with.
Becoming a god is the goal of every believer in Christ... (These are not my words)
The problem with some modern Christians is that they have forgotten this; although the majority of Christians still have it on their books as a belief, they just don't preach it any more.

Pfft! ....It's so simple to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and then don't say it.

Love,

Grandma

[Grandma]

The men I quoted were influential in the spread of true Christianity. The scriptures you quoted do not negate what these men taught. Do your research on ancient Christianity and every person I quoted will come up multiple times because of how important they were. FYI, these men backed their teachings with the real meanings of scripture.

It makes no difference what I post. I've already refuted your false doctrine. You can't honestly say that men who, according to Mormonism, were apostates without the gift of the Holy Ghost and without the authority to run the Mormon idea of church, were spreading true Christianity.

"During the Great Apostasy, people were without divine direction from living prophets. Many churches were established, but they did not have priesthood power to lead people to the true knowledge of God the Father and Jesus Christ. Parts of the holy scriptures were corrupted or lost, and no one had the authority to confer the gift of the Holy Ghost or perform other priesthood ordinances."

Topics lds.org


The (Nonexistent) Great Apostasy

The Mormon response is to claim that the Church fell into total and complete apostasy after the death of the last apostle. Moreover, Mormons maintain that biblical texts like Amos 8:11-14 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 (which we will examine below), among others, positively teach this to be so. Thus, the LDS contends that the true church of Christ did not exist at all for some 1,800 years and then was re-established through another testament given to Joseph Smith and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

A great place to begin a discussion is with the biblical texts used by Mormons in an attempt to demonstrate their position. The prophet Amos prophesied in Israel ca. 785 B.C. Among other things, he warned of the coming destruction that did, in fact, occur in 721 B.C. because of Israel’s idolatry (see chapters 6 and 7). Amos 8:11-14 reads:

"Behold, the days are coming," says the Lord God, "when I will send a famine on the land; not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord. They shall wander from sea to sea, and from north to east; they shall run to and fro, to seek the word of the Lord, but they shall not find it."

This text speaks of an apostasy in ancient Israel, not after the death of the last apostle in the New Testament. But even this apostasy was not total; it does not qualify as the apostasy Mormons claim. In chapter 9, Amos makes this very clear.

"Behold, the eyes of the Lord God are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from the surface of the ground; except that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob," says the Lord. "For lo, I will command, and shake the house of Israel among all the nations as one shakes with a sieve, but no pebble shall fall to the ground. All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, who say, ‘Evil shall not overtake or meet us.’" (Amos 9:8-10)
catholic.com/magazine

I copied that because my chair is uncomfortable and I don't feel like typing. It's ridiculous to claim that Christ's Church fell into complete apostasy and even more ridiculous to believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. I'm truly sorry that you don't know the true Gospel that Jesus brought.

In Christian love,

Grandma

[theway]

It makes no difference what I post. I've already refuted your false doctrine. You can't honestly say that men who, according to Mormonism, were apostates without the gift of the Holy Ghost and without the authority to run the Mormon idea of church, were spreading true Christianity.

"During the Great Apostasy, people were without divine direction from living prophets. Many churches were established, but they did not have priesthood power to lead people to the true knowledge of God the Father and Jesus Christ. Parts of the holy scriptures were corrupted or lost, and no one had the authority to confer the gift of the Holy Ghost or perform other priesthood ordinances."

Topics lds.orgYou don't get it... The apostasy was not all about incorrect doctrine, the apostisy happened because of the loss of Authority. Sometimes it wasn't always the fault of the Church.
But then that's the paradox you live in, not us. If the Early Christian Fathers believed things which were incorrect, then for those which understand the Bible we are able to recognize that, and take it for what it's worth. You on the other hand do not have that option, because either the Early Christian Fathers were right about doctrine THEY ALL AGREED ON such as: the need of a priesthood, Water Baptism being required for salvation, Faith plus works, Three Degrees of Heaven, men becoming gods, Etc.... or they were ALL wrong. Which means they would have all been in a universal apostasy of the truth, according to you

You can't have it both ways.


catholic.com/magazine

I copied that because my chair is uncomfortable and I don't feel like typing. It's ridiculous to claim that Christ's Church fell into complete apostasy and even more ridiculous to believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. I'm truly sorry that you don't know the true Gospel that Jesus brought.

In Christian love,
GrandmaLOL.... I see that you consider the Catholics as a good source of true doctrine... Well then, let's see what the Catholics believe about becoming gods shall we....


Catechism of the Catholic Church
460 The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature":78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, ***umed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."81

Or perhaps you'll believe a Modern Christian like C. S. Lewis.


"The command Be ye perfect is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were "gods" and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him—for we can prevent Him, if we choose—He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said." C.S. Lewis.



Like I said, your beliefs are the beliefs of a heretical minority. It really isn't all your fault because this is what they told you to believe and to say. However if you are going to continue to try and school us Mormons on what the Bible really says... Then I suggest you find out what the Bible is really saying first.

[Christian]

cog posted:


Originally Posted by Christianthe kid posted:
becoming gods is an ancient doctrine that was WIDELY taught in the original church. Its called deification. The early church fathers taught this doctrine as it comes from...you guessed it...the scriptures.

More than one heretic has taught such a thing. You cannot quote ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE that says you can be 'exalted to godhood,' and no CHRISTIAN fathers taught any such thing.

I noticed you are PATENTLY UNABLE to find ONE MENTION OF YOUR "exaltation to godhood" in ANY CHURCH FATHER OF THE FIRST CENTURY, AND OF COURSE

You CANNOT CITE ANYTHING AT ALL to support your made-up claims.

Of course Mormons, having been ranked more knowledgeable of the Bible than any other Christian denomination, understand.

THAT is the FUNNIEST JOKE I HAVE HEARD IN A LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG TIME!

You mormons may 'rank' yourselves any way you want, but your 'ranking' is a joke. NOBODY believes you except your mormon cronies.

As for knowledge of the Bible, most BAPTISTS, or LUTHERANS or PRESBYTERIANS know MULTIPLE TIMES what your average mormons know.

A pathetic LACK OF SCRIPTURAL KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTANDING is why mormons can't leave their cult.

http://www.pewforum.org/2010/09/28/u-s-religious-knowledge-survey/
Guess again. Statistics found in the website.

Irenaeus:
"While man gradually advances and mounts towards perfection; that is, he approaches the eternal. The eternal is perfect; and this is God. Man has first to come into being, then to progress, and by progressing come to manhood, and having reached manhood to increase, and thus increasing to persevere, and persevering to be glorified, and thus see his Lord."

"there is none other called God by the Scriptures except the Father of all, and the Son, and those who possess the adoption....Since, therefore, this is sure and stedfast, that no other God or Lord was announced by the Spirit, except Him who, as God, rules over all, together with His Word, and those who receive the Spirit of adoption."

"We were not made gods at our beginning, but first we were made men, then, in the end, gods."

"How then will any be a god, if he has not first been made a man? How can any be perfect when he has only lately been made man? How immortal, if he has not in his mortal nature obeyed his maker? For one's duty is first to observe the discipline of man and thereafter to share in the glory of God."

"Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God, of his boundless love, became what we are that he might make us what he himself is."

"But of what gods [does he speak]? [Of those] to whom He says, "I have said, Ye are gods, and all sons of the Most High." To those, no doubt, who have received the grace of the "adoption, by which we cry, Abba Father."

"For he who holds, without pride and boasting, the true glory (opinion) regarding created things and the Creator, who is the Almighty God of all, and who has granted existence to all; [such an one, ] continuing in His love and subjection, and giving of thanks, shall also receive from Him the greater glory of promotion, looking forward to the time when he shall become like Him who died for him, for He, too, "was made in the likeness of sinful flesh," to condemn sin, and to cast it, as now a condemned thing, away beyond the flesh, but that He might call man forth into His own likeness, ***igning him as [His own] imitator to God, and imposing on him His Father's law, in order that he may see God, and granting him power to receive the Father; [being] the Word of God who dwelt in man, and became the Son of man, that He might accustom man to receive God, and God to dwell in man, according to the good pleasure of the Father."

Let's see now. . .WHAT do we have here?

NOTHING AT ALL FROM SCRIPTURE (so much for mormon's 'great knowledge of scripture').

A link to the Pew research center, but NOT TO ANY OF THESE SUPPOSED 'quotes.'

NOT ONE SINGLE CITATION TO ANYTHING ACTUALLY WRITTEN BY IRENAEUS.

Nothing but supposed quotes of a man's OPINION, from a man who wasn't even BORN until about 100 years after Christ's crucifiction.

Lots of OPINIONS, NO CITATIONS, NO SCRIPTURE.

So much for the supposedly 'more scripturally knowledgable' mormons who have ZERO to hang their hats on.

[Christian]

the kid posted:
becoming gods is an ancient doctrine that was WIDELY taught in the original church. Its called deification. The early church fathers taught this doctrine as it comes from...you guessed it...the scriptures.

More than one heretic has taught such a thing. You cannot quote ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE that says you can be 'exalted to godhood,' and no CHRISTIAN fathers taught any such thing.

I noticed you are PATENTLY UNABLE to find ONE MENTION OF YOUR "exaltation to godhood" in ANY CHURCH FATHER OF THE FIRST CENTURY, AND OF COURSE

You CANNOT CITE ANYTHING AT ALL to support your made-up claims.

Of course Mormons, having been ranked more knowledgeable of the Bible than any other Christian denomination, understand.

THAT is the FUNNIEST JOKE I HAVE HEARD IN A LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG TIME!

You mormons may 'rank' yourselves any way you want, but your 'ranking' is a joke. NOBODY believes you except your mormon cronies.

As for knowledge of the Bible, most BAPTISTS, or LUTHERANS or PRESBYTERIANS know MULTIPLE TIMES what your average mormons know.

A pathetic LACK OF SCRIPTURAL KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTANDING is why mormons can't leave their cult.

I noticed you have not come up with ONE SINGLE FIRST CENTURY CHRISTIAN who ever taught your 'exaltation to godhood' fairytale. BTW Irenaeus didn't teach it. You cannot offer one CITATION from him that says he did. And of course he was born in AD 125, didn't likely write anything until about AD 150, over a hundred years AFTER the first century Christians followed CHRIST (not him).

[theway]

I noticed you have not come up with ONE SINGLE FIRST CENTURY CHRISTIAN who ever taught your 'exaltation to godhood' fairytale. BTW Irenaeus didn't teach it. You cannot offer one CITATION from him that says he did. And of course he was born in AD 125, didn't likely write anything until about AD 150, over a hundred years AFTER the first century Christians followed CHRIST (not him).Thanks for pointing out that Irenaeus was born only 35-65 years after the first books of the New Testament were written and would of better of been able to understand its meanings given that he also said he got his knowledge from those who were actually taught by the Apostles themselves....
I'll take that understanding over someone 2000 years latter who contradicts everything that the Early Christians believed to have been true, and who completely ignores the Bible as it was meant to be understood.

[theway]

http://www.pewforum.org/2010/09/28/u-s-religious-knowledge-survey/
Guess again. Statistics found in the website.

Let's see now. . .WHAT do we have here?
Yes let's see...
Seems that if you consider Mormons to be Christian, then Mormons know more about the Bible than any other Christian group.

However if you believe Mormons to not be Christian, than every group who you would consider Non-Christian knows more about religion than you do, and the Mormons still know more about the Bible...

Either way you look at it, I don't think I'd be bragging if I were you...

[disciple]

Yes let's see...
Seems that if you consider Mormons to be Christian, then Mormons know more about the Bible than any other Christian group.



I'm glad you guys know more about the Bible and since I can't seem to find it can you show me where the Bible talks about a Mother God and the part where Jesus is the brother of satan.

[theway]

I'm glad you guys know more about the Bible and since I can't seem to find it can you show me where the Bible talks about a Mother God and the part where Jesus is the brother of satan.
It doesn't... However what's that have to do with Bible knowledge???

[disciple]

It doesn't... However what's that have to do with Bible knowledge???

So if its not in the Bible why do you believe it?

[Grandma]

So far you've refuted nothing any Mormons have said on here. You never disproved deification. The verses you quoted didn't do what you hoped because you get them.

To believe the Great Apostasy never happened is to completely ignore history and the Bible itself. The Bible testifies of the Great Apostasy and says it HAD to happen (it was prophesied even by Jesus himself) and history proves it. That's where the Dark Ages comes from.

Doctrines such as the trinity and ex niliho are evidence that the church fell. False doctrines were created, people were killing in the name of Jesus (not out of real defense, but as an excuse to justify persecution) etc. To believe the Great Apostasy never happened is absurd and a denial of the scriptures. God himself told me Joseph Smith was a prophet, therefore, he was. Just because you don't want him to be doesn't mean he wasn't. Anti's are disproven time after time while you guys remain in complete denial.

I'm grateful to have the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ in my life and pray you will one day come into the fold of the Good Shepherd.

Joseph Smith was either delusional or a liar. "No man hath seen God at any time." Mormons ignore the parts of the Bible that contradict their man made doctrines. They teach there is a mul***ude of gods and that obedient Mormons can become gods and create their own planets. Joseph Smith called the God of the Bible a MONSTER!

Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isaiah 43:10

But for the grace of God, I'd be lost following a man made system of beliefs. I pray that you'll find the peace that p***es all understanding --- it is found in the true God.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[Grandma]

Thanks for pointing out that Irenaeus was born only 35-65 years after the first books of the New Testament were written and would of better of been able to understand its meanings given that he also said he got his knowledge from those who were actually taught by the Apostles themselves....
I'll take that understanding over someone 2000 years latter who contradicts everything that the Early Christians believed to have been true, and who completely ignores the Bible as it was meant to be understood.

A person born at the same time you were wouldn't necessarily believe the doctrines you were taught. Your perspective doesn't hold water.

Following Jesus,

Grandma

[theway]

A person born at the same time you were wouldn't necessarily believe the doctrines you were taught. Your perspective doesn't hold water.

Following Jesus,

GrandmaYes we would, if we were both Mormons we would have the same CORE Beliefs. I have been all over the world in hundreds of LDS Churches, the style of delivery is sometimes different, but the doctrine taught is exactly the same.

What you refuse to acknowledge is that they were ALL Christians and ALL the writings of the Early Church and ALL The Early Church Fathers were united on Core beliefs such as: The Three degrees of Heaven, men can become gods, water baptism is a requirement of salvation, Priesthood Authority is required, and it requires both Faith plus Works. So either they were all right, or they were all in a complete apostasy of true doctrine?

Which is it?

[theway]

Joseph Smith was either delusional or a liar. "No man hath seen God at any time." Mormons ignore the parts of the Bible that contradict their man made doctrines. They teach there is a mul***ude of gods and that obedient Mormons can become gods and create their own planets.LOL... Ironically you have just shown how you ignore the many parts of the Bible which say that men have seen God face to face, in favor of the one verse that seems to agree with your false beliefs. But then, how can you explain how God is One, and also state that there were many people who have seen Jesus Christ? But that no one has seen God... Is Jesus Christ not the God you worship?


Joseph Smith called the God of the Bible a MONSTER!Again not true...


Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isaiah 43:10Once again you have misinterpreted the scripture you posted. This is not in reference to a numerical one, but this is stating a preeminence or superiority, much the way it still does today. We know this because everywhere else in the Bible where this same rhetoric is used, it is in reference to a superiority or greatness, and not to the number one... (See Isaiah 47:8-10)


But for the grace of God, I'd be lost following a man made system of beliefs. I pray that you'll find the peace that p***es all understanding --- it is found in the true God.

In Christian Love,

GrandmaThat's contradictory in your false "God does it all" beliefs. Under your false belief system it would be impossible for me to find peace by me reading the Bible, as that is a work and would result in no gain. If I am not one of the prechossen, then your prayers are an unholy attempt to change Gods will... And since you do not know Gods will, then wouldn't it be better for you to remain silent?

But then I've already found peace in the true God... So again, just who are you trying to convince?

[Grandma]

You don't get it... The apostasy was not all about incorrect doctrine, the apostisy happened because of the loss of Authority. Sometimes it wasn't always the fault of the Church.
But then that's the paradox you live in, not us. If the Early Christian Fathers believed things which were incorrect, then for those which understand the Bible we are able to recognize that, and take it for what it's worth. You on the other hand do not have that option, because either the Early Christian Fathers were right about doctrine THEY ALL AGREED ON such as: the need of a priesthood, Water Baptism being required for salvation, Faith plus works, Three Degrees of Heaven, men becoming gods, Etc.... or they were ALL wrong. Which means they would have all been in a universal apostasy of the truth, according to you.

You obviously don't know what you're talking about.

"Soon pagan beliefs dominated the thinking of those called Christians. The Roman emperor adopted this false Christianity as the state religion. This church was very different from the church Jesus organized. It taught that God was a being without form or substance."
"Chapter 16: The Church of Jesus Christ in Former Times," Gospel Principles, (2009)

The gospel of Jesus Christ was lost from the earth through the apostasy that took place following the earthly ministry of Christ’s Apostles.
Restoration of the Gospel, lds.org

24 And the angel of the Lord said unto me: Thou hast beheld that the book proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew; and when it proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew it contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record; and they bear record according to the truth which is in the Lamb of God.

25 Wherefore, these things go forth from the Jews in purity unto the Gentiles, according to the truth which is in God.

26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.

27 And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.

28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.

29 And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest—because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.
Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 13: 24-29


The ECF were not apostles or prophets.





You can't have it both ways.

LOL.... I see that you consider the Catholics as a good source of true doctrine... Well then, let's see what the Catholics believe about becoming gods shall we....

I don't believe in Catholicism. My back hurt at that time and I was too uncomfortable to stay at the computer. What I posted was correct information.


The Bible is our yardstick for measuring truth, not men.


Love,

Grandma

[theway]

You obviously don't know what you're talking about.

"Soon pagan beliefs dominated the thinking of those called Christians. The Roman emperor adopted this false Christianity as the state religion. This church was very different from the church Jesus organized. It taught that God was a being without form or substance."
"Chapter 16: The Church of Jesus Christ in Former Times," Gospel Principles, (2009)

The gospel of Jesus Christ was lost from the earth through the apostasy that took place following the earthly ministry of Christ’s Apostles.
Restoration of the Gospel, lds.org

24 And the angel of the Lord said unto me: Thou hast beheld that the book proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew; and when it proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew it contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record; and they bear record according to the truth which is in the Lamb of God.

25 Wherefore, these things go forth from the Jews in purity unto the Gentiles, according to the truth which is in God.

26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.

27 And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.

28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.

29 And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest—because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.
Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 13: 24-29None of what you posted addresses my question or concern. You're back to your old trick of posting irrelevant scriptures and quotes in order to not have to deal with the truth.

My question was simple... Are the core beliefs of the Early Christian Church correct when it came to multiple heavens of glory, priesthood authority, Faith plus Works, water baptism, men becoming gods ... Or were they ALL in apostasy?
Please answer if you dare...



The ECF were not apostles or prophets.So you're throwing the Early Christian Fathers under the Evangelical bus I see.
However claiming that Early Christians did not have the proper authority or calling from God hardly helps your case any don't you think????


I don't believe in Catholicism. My back hurt at that time and I was too uncomfortable to stay at the computer. What I posted was correct information.Wow... Now your throwing Catholics under the Evangelical bus also. Well that brings your beliefs down to a 40% minority viewpoint right there. Now when you take those who do not believe in Faith Alone out of that 40% that leaves you in the 9-12% minority viewpoint of doctrine of all those who call themselves Christian.



The Bible is our yardstick for measuring truth, not men.
Love,
GrandmaThe Bible is not the yardstick for determining truth... It never has been; maybe that's your problem.
The Bible is a tool, like a yardstick is a tool but it's not the tool one uses to determine what is truth. That *** belongs exclusively to the Holy Ghost.
Christ told us that it is revelation of the Holy Ghost on which His Church will be built.
You are completely deficient in simple Biblical understanding.

[Grandma]

So far you've refuted nothing any Mormons have said on here. You never disproved deification. The verses you quoted didn't do what you hoped because you get them.

To believe the Great Apostasy never happened is to completely ignore history and the Bible itself. The Bible testifies of the Great Apostasy and says it HAD to happen (it was prophesied even by Jesus himself) and history proves it. That's where the Dark Ages comes from.

Doctrines such as the trinity and ex niliho are evidence that the church fell. False doctrines were created, people were killing in the name of Jesus (not out of real defense, but as an excuse to justify persecution) etc. To believe the Great Apostasy never happened is absurd and a denial of the scriptures. God himself told me Joseph Smith was a prophet, therefore, he was. Just because you don't want him to be doesn't mean he wasn't. Anti's are disproven time after time while you guys remain in complete denial.

I'm grateful to have the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ in my life and pray you will one day come into the fold of the Good Shepherd.

We have disproven your evil doctrine of men becoming gods! Isaiah 43:10.

[Grandma]

None of what you posted addresses my question or concern. You're back to your old trick of posting irrelevant scriptures and quotes in order to not have to deal with the truth.

My question was simple... Are the core beliefs of the Early Christian Church correct when it came to multiple heavens of glory, priesthood authority, Faith plus Works, water baptism, men becoming gods ... Or were they ALL in apostasy?
Please answer if you dare...


So you're throwing the Early Christian Fathers under the Evangelical bus I see.
However claiming that Early Christians did not have the proper authority or calling from God hardly helps your case any don't you think????

Wow... Now your throwing Catholics under the Evangelical bus also. Well that brings your beliefs down to a 40% minority viewpoint right there. Now when you take those who do not believe in Faith Alone out of that 40% that leaves you in the 9-12% minority viewpoint of doctrine of all those who call themselves Christian.


Wow... Now your throwing Catholics under the Evangelical bus also. Well that brings your beliefs down to a 40% minority viewpoint right there. Now when you take those who do not believe in Faith Alone out of that 40% that leaves you in the 9-12% minority viewpoint of doctrine of all those who call themselves Christian.


The Bible is not the yardstick for determining truth... It never has been; maybe that's your problem.
The Bible is a tool, like a yardstick is a tool but it's not the tool one uses to determine what is truth. That *** belongs exclusively to the Holy Ghost.
Christ told us that it is revelation of the Holy Ghost on which His Church will be built.
You are completely deficient in simple Biblical understanding.

I didn't throw Catholics under any bus. Mormons don’t believe in Catholicism either. I've visited Catholic churches and cathedrals, attended m***, I've been to the Vatican, toured the Sistine Chapel, watched Catholics kiss the feet of a statue of Saint Peter, had kindness shown to me by a Catholic priest, Father Leddy, and been molested by a Catholic chaplain's ***istant. Now let's look at Mormon history regarding Catholics --- no I'm not interested; another Christian can remind you of that.



LOL... Ironically you have just shown how you ignore the many parts of the Bible which say that men have seen God face to face, in favor of the one verse that seems to agree with your false beliefs. But then, how can you explain how God is One, and also state that there were many people who have seen Jesus Christ? But that no one has seen God... Is Jesus Christ not the God you worship?

Who has seen the Father? Who do I worship? I worship the Triune God described in the Bible.

What did Jesus say and was He telling the truth?

John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 6:46
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he[Jesus] which is of God, he hath seen the Father.




That's contradictory in your false "God does it all" beliefs. Under your false belief system it would be impossible for me to find peace by me reading the Bible, as that is a work and would result in no gain. If I am not one of the prechossen, then your prayers are an unholy attempt to change Gods will... And since you do not know Gods will, then wouldn't it be better for you to remain silent?

But then I've already found peace in the true God... So again, just who are you trying to convince?

I’ve told Mormons many times that I’m not trying to usurp the Holy Spirit Who convinces men of truth.

Praying for sinners is not an unholy attempt to change God’s will. We are instructed to pray for others. You obviously don’t know your Bible nor do you know my “belief system” as you want to call my faith.

“Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.”

Matthew 5:44
“But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;”


That's contradictory in your false "God does it all" beliefs.

John 15:5
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Revelation 14:1
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Ephesians 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephesians 1:9
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

1 Corinthians 1:21
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Philippians 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

1 Corinthians 15:19
But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

2 Corinthians 3:5
Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;



Under your false belief system it would be impossible for me to find peace by me reading the Bible, as that is a work and would result in no gain.

You aren’t omniscient, are you? How do you know who is chosen and who isn’t?

Love,

Grandma

[theway]

I didn't throw Catholics under any bus. Mormons don’t believe in Catholicism either. I've visited Catholic churches and cathedrals, attended m***, I've been to the Vatican, toured the Sistine Chapel, watched Catholics kiss the feet of a statue of Saint Peter, had kindness shown to me by a Catholic priest, Father Leddy, and been molested by a Catholic chaplain's ***istant. Now let's look at Mormon history regarding Catholics --- no I'm not interested; another Christian can remind you of that.LOL.... So visiting the Vatican or being molested by a Catholic chaplains ***istant makes you an expert on what the Early Christians and Modern Catholics believe?
Again, this is the third time you have posted a rant, instead of an answer to my question.
However by so doing, you have shown yet another contradiction in your beliefs. You say you don't believe in what the Catholics believe or the beliefs of the Early Christian Fathers, yet you still cling to this Trinity nonsense written by an Early Church Theologian and adopted by the Catholic Church..... Can anyone say double standard?



Who has seen the Father? Who do I worship? I worship the Triune God described in the Bible.

What did Jesus say and was He telling the truth?The Bible never says to worship the Triune God.... I thought you got your doctrine from the Bible?
Grant it... Nobody has ever been able to explain The Trinity doctrine to where it makes any sense to anybody, or to where it is not contradictory. The worlds best Theologians and Scholars have tried and failed. They were forced to come to the conclusion that their version of the Godhead was impossible to reconcile, so they have labeled it "The Great Mystery".
However, the basic tenet of your belief is that all Three are ONE. If true, then anyone who has seen The Son has in fact also literally seen the Father, John 14:9 otherwise you are saying that they are not ONE.
This whole argument that "no one has seen God" is not a problem for the LDS, because as you know the LDS are not held hostage by the incorrect or deliberate mistranslations or misunderstandings of men. This paradox is only for those few Christian left who believe in the "infallibility of the Bible" silliness to try and reconcile... Not us. So who are you trying to convince?


John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
John 6:46
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he[Jesus] which is of God, he hath seen the Father.We can play dueling scriptures if you want however you would lose, because for every 1 scripture that you think supports you, I can post 15 that says someone has seen God. However that does not matter as your interpretation is not the way the Early Church understood it.
Here is how they understood it...

"For "no man," he says, "hath seen God at any time," unless "the only-begotten Son of God, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared [Him]." Irenaeus, "Against Heresies," Chapter 6, ANF,1:427.

Interestingly enough, Joseph Smith brought back the original interpretation in the Joseph Smith Translation
"No man hath seen God at any time except he hath borne record of the Son" JST.

That begs the question.... How did Joseph Smith know how it was originally to be interpreted?



I’ve told Mormons many times that I’m not trying to usurp the Holy Spirit Who convinces men of truth.

Praying for sinners is not an unholy attempt to change God’s will. We are instructed to pray for others. You obviously don’t know your Bible nor do you know my “belief system” as you want to call my faith.

I'm only pointing out that praying for sinners only makes sense to the overwhelming majority of Christians who don't believe in "God does it all".
I'm asking you what is the point in your theory of praying for a sinner that was not preselected by God? It would never change anything for him, change God's mind, nor would it do you any good either..... Again, the paradox is yours, not ours.


You aren’t omniscient, are you? How do you know who is chosen and who isn’t?

Love,

GrandmaThat is the whole point. If you do not know who is "already" saved and who is not, then you would more likely be praying for a already ****ed demon to enter heaven, than for a already saved individual. In any case it would be of no use to either.
Simply saying that you do not know the reason why, only showcases what you don't know about the Bible, not what you do know.

[Grandma]

LOL.... So visiting the Vatican or being molested by a Catholic chaplains ***istant makes you an expert on what the Early Christians and Modern Catholics believe?
Again, this is the third time you have posted a rant, instead of an answer to my question.
However by so doing, you have shown yet another contradiction in your beliefs. You say you don't believe in what the Catholics believe or the beliefs of the Early Christian Fathers, yet you still cling to this Trinity nonsense written by an Early Church Theologian and adopted by the Catholic Church..... Can anyone say double standard?

Putting words in my mouth equates to lying.


Grant it... Nobody has ever been able to explain The Trinity doctrine to where it makes any sense to anybody, or to where it is not contradictory. The worlds best Theologians and Scholars have tried and failed. They were forced to come to the conclusion that their version of the Godhead was impossible to reconcile, so they have labeled it "The Great Mystery".


The reason it is a mystery to created beings, is because there is only one God anywhere ever! Mormons reduce God to the same species as humans, and His godhood simply to a position he attained. I won't follow your example of using inflammatory words in an attempt to provoke the other person.




However, the basic tenet of your belief is that all Three are ONE. If true, then anyone who has seen The Son has in fact also literally seen the Father, John 14:9 otherwise you are saying that they are not ONE.

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are each God and because there absolutely is only one God, the three are one.



This whole argument that "no one has seen God" is not a problem for the LDS, because as you know the LDS are not held hostage by the incorrect or deliberate mistranslations or misunderstandings of men. This paradox is only for those few Christian left who believe in the "infallibility of the Bible" silliness to try and reconcile... Not us. So who are you trying to convince?
We can play dueling scriptures if you want however you would lose, because for every 1 scripture that you think supports you, I can post 15 that says someone has seen God. However that does not matter as your interpretation is not the way the Early Church understood it.
Here is how they understood it...

You can post umpteen million verses without understanding Who God is.


"We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.

"These ideas are incomprehensible to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible."
- Joseph Smith, King Follett Sermon, April 7, 1844

He failed to show it from the Bible.

"Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power."
- Joseph Smith, King Follet Sermon, April 7, 1844

Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Psalm 90:2
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

Isaiah 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Deuteronomy 4:35
Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.

Mark 12:32
And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

Joseph Smith ignored those verses! Now Mormons are working out answers to twist the scriptures into saying things that aren't true.

2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.



I'm only pointing out that praying for sinners only makes sense to the overwhelming majority of Christians who don't believe in "God does it all".
I'm asking you what is the point in your theory of praying for a sinner that was not preselected by God? It would never change anything for him, change God's mind, nor would it do you any good either..... Again, the paradox is yours, not ours.

There is no paradox. Jesus came to save sinners. God gives the sinner a new heart and makes him a new creature. The person who was walking on darkness becomes a child of light. I am obedient to God when I pray for others.

Do Mormons think they can manipulare God? Do you never pray for wayward Mormons? Will your prayers help God to bring a wayward Mormon back? Will that wayward person's will prevent God from turning that person around? Is God weaker than man's will?



That is the whole point. If you do not know who is "already" saved and who is not, then you would more likely be praying for a already ****ed demon to enter heaven, than for a already saved individual. In any case it would be of no use to either.

Jesus taught us to pray, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." I never pray for God to go against His Own will!

Love,

Grandma

[Grandma]

For the sake of dignity please don't ever use Numbers 23:19 against the truth that God is a man. Have you read it or did you copy and paste it from an anti website?

I read it in anti-Mormon book called the Holy Bible, King James Version.


Love,

Grandma

[Grandma]

New International Version
God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

English Standard Version
God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

New American Standard Bible
"God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

King James Bible
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

International Standard Version
God is not a human male— he doesn't lie, nor is he a human being— he never vacillates. Once he speaks up, he's going to act, isn't he? Once he makes a promise, he'll fulfill it, won't he?

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. God has NEVER sinned!

I wish you could see this.

Love,

Grandma

[theway]

New International Version
God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

English Standard Version
God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

New American Standard Bible
"God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

King James Bible
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

International Standard Version
God is not a human male— he doesn't lie, nor is he a human being— he never vacillates. Once he speaks up, he's going to act, isn't he? Once he makes a promise, he'll fulfill it, won't he?

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. God has NEVER sinned!

I wish you could see this.

Love,

GrandmaThere you have it... The meaning is that God does not lie. It has nothing to do with whether God was man. In fact your own doctrine says that God was fully man.

[theway]

The reason it is a mystery to created beings, is because there is only one God anywhere ever! Mormons reduce God to the same species as humans, and His godhood simply to a position he attained. I won't follow your example of using inflammatory words in an attempt to provoke the other person.There's your problem, you believe that if God is an exalted man then that somehow brings Him down. You need to reread your Bible... the whole idea is that God will exalt us to where He is... You seem to have no confidence in the abilities of God to create beings like unto Himself.


The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are each God and because there absolutely is only one God, the three are one. Then that means that if a person has seen Jesus, then they have seen God... Right?
In other words, you believe that man can see God, you just can not actually say it out loud. Once again the paradox is yours, not ours.


You can post umpteen million verses without understanding Who God is. LOL... You are the one who believes in the unknowable mystery of the Trinitarian God, not us. I have no problem understanding God because I do not have to adhere to conflicting doctrine as you do.


"We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.

"These ideas are incomprehensible to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible."
- Joseph Smith, King Follett Sermon, April 7, 1844

He failed to show it from the Bible.

"Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power."
- Joseph Smith, King Follet Sermon, April 7, 1844

Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Psalm 90:2
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

Isaiah 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Deuteronomy 4:35
Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.

Mark 12:32
And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

Joseph Smith ignored those verses! Now Mormons are working out answers to twist the scriptures into saying things that aren't true.

2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.I have no idea as to what your point is here??? Your shotgun approach to posting multiple verses ripped out of context which have nothing to do with each other simply shows how little you understand about what you post and shows that you are just hoping you'll get lucky and something will stick. Is this how they told you to confront Mormons in your AntiMormon cl***? Because it ain't working, it is actually having the opposite effect, it makes me never want to be a part of your hodge-podge of made up and conflicting doctrine and misinterpreted scripture.
I see four different unrelated topics in the scriptures and quotes you posted, and I am not sure if you even understand what you posted.


There is no paradox. Jesus came to save sinners. God gives the sinner a new heart and makes him a new creature. The person who was walking on darkness becomes a child of light. I am obedient to God when I pray for others.
Do Mormons think they can manipulare God? Do you never pray for wayward Mormons? Will your prayers help God to bring a wayward Mormon back? Will that wayward person's will prevent God from turning that person around? Is God weaker than man's will?God's Will is that ALL men be saved! Seeing as though ALL men are not saved, then your whole theory just went right out the window. God gave men free agency, set up the gospel, and went through the Atonement so that ALL men can be saved. All men are not saved because man chooses whether they will follow God or not. If you obey God then God is bond by His Word, so yes men can bind God when you do as He says, else God would be a liar. This throws your "God does it All" out the window as well. You have a lot to relearn about the Bible. Best you throw out the window your Calvanist commentaries as well. And start over... but this time with the aide of the Holy Ghost and not your AntiMormon checklist.




Jesus taught us to pray, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." I never pray for God to go against His Own will!

Love,

GrandmaYou prayed that I will be saved. Obviously according to your beliefs God has not chosen me to be saved. This means that you are trying to usurp God's Will for me. Even you must admit that based on your beliefs, your prayer have absolutely no power to affect a change in anything, even yourself, otherwise your belief in "God does it all" was a lie to us.
Again the paradox is yours, not ours.

[Grandma]

Did you just quote the NIV? o_O
Anyway, God is a man that doesn't lie. If God isn't a an man/male, why do the scriptures refer to God as the Father, He, and Him? God is not an it. I wish you would understand what you post and I hope you will one day understand the scriptures. Not once have you taken the scriptures in context.

Why does the Bible say:

John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Love,

Grandma

[Grandma]

God's Will is that ALL men be saved! Seeing as though ALL men are not saved, then your whole theory just went right out the window.

No, it didn't.



You prayed that I will be saved. Obviously according to your beliefs God has not chosen me to be saved. This means that you are trying to usurp God's Will for me. Even you must admit that based on your beliefs, your prayer have absolutely no power to affect a change in anything, even yourself, otherwise your belief in "God does it all" was a lie to us.
Again the paradox is yours, not ours.

According to my beliefs, I don't know who He has chosen. I wasn't born a Christian. He has a plan and no one can thwart His plan.

You keep contradicting the Bible.

Love,

Grandma

[theway]

No, it didn't.
Simply saying "Nuh-uh" is not an answer, and does not solve the many contradictions embedded within the heresies you believe in.

Again, please explain how if you believe "God does it All" and that God's Will is always accomplished by Him; if God's Will is for all men to be saved, then why are all men not saved?

"3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
(1 Tim. 2:3-4).
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2 Pet. 3:9).



According to my beliefs, I don't know who He has chosen. I wasn't born a Christian. He has a plan and no one can thwart His plan. According to your beliefs you contradicted yourself again. If you believe God chose and saved you before you were born, then you do believe you were in fact a Christian before you were born, you just didn't know it.
Your telling us that you do not know how God works, nor do you understand His plans, is not news to anyone reading these posts of yours.



You keep contradicting the Bible.
Love,
GrandmaNo, I am simply showing the contradictions within your own writings, and the contradictions between you and what the majority of Christians believe.
The mistake you keep making is that you thought Mormons would be an easy target to sell your heresies to. However if you are not able to sell your Faith Alone and God does it all heresies to you own, then what gave you the idea you could convince Mormons to buy into it when we know the Bible better than the lot of you guys?

[Grandma]

... You seem to have no confidence in the abilities of God to create beings like unto Himself.


You seem to believe that God needs a wife in order to do that.

[Grandma]

Simply saying "Nuh-uh" is not an answer, and does not solve the many contradictions embedded within the heresies you believe in.

Again, please explain how if you believe "God does it All" and that God's Will is always accomplished by Him; if God's Will is for all men to be saved, then why are all men not saved?

"3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
(1 Tim. 2:3-4).
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2 Pet. 3:9).


According to your beliefs you contradicted yourself again. If you believe God chose and saved you before you were born, then you do believe you were in fact a Christian before you were born, you just didn't know it.
Your telling us that you do not know how God works, nor do you understand His plans, is not news to anyone reading these posts of yours.


No, I am simply showing the contradictions within your own writings, and the contradictions between you and what the majority of Christians believe.
The mistake you keep making is that you thought Mormons would be an easy target to sell your heresies to. However if you are not able to sell your Faith Alone and God does it all heresies to you own, then what gave you the idea you could convince Mormons to buy into it when we know the Bible better than the lot of you guys?

I don't even think of Mormons as a target nor do I expect them to believe what I believe. And I'm not interested in spreading heresies.

Mormons don't believe that this will happen:

"3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
(1 Tim. 2:3-4).


In Christian Love,

Grandma

[theway]

You seem to believe that God needs a wife in order to do that.I never said He did??? I don't know where you got that from?
Oh wait... Yes I do. You merely created this ad hominem in order to not have to deal with or answer my question.

Can God create a being to be like Himself?

[theway]

I don't even think of Mormons as a target nor do I expect them to believe what I believe. And I'm not interested in spreading heresies.

Mormons don't believe that this will happen:

"3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
(1 Tim. 2:3-4).


In Christian Love,

GrandmaWe absolutely do believe it... As I keep pointing out, you are unable to solve the paradox because it is YOUR belief in "God does it All" which contradicts scripture, not ours.

[Grandma]

I never said He did??? I don't know where you got that from?
Oh wait... Yes I do. You merely created this ad hominem in order to not have to deal with or answer my question.

Can God create a being to be like Himself?

It's not an ad hominem. It's Mormon teaching. Perhaps you are just pretending to be a Mormon.

[Grandma]

We absolutely do believe it... As I keep pointing out, you are unable to solve the paradox because it is YOUR belief in "God does it All" which contradicts scripture, not ours.

No, you do NOT teach that all men will be saved, but only a "select few."

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[Grandma]

There's your problem, you believe that if God is an exalted man then that somehow brings Him down. You need to reread your Bible... the whole idea is that God will exalt us to where He is... You seem to have no confidence in the abilities of God to create beings like unto Himself.

Then that means that if a person has seen Jesus, then they have seen God... Right?
In other words, you believe that man can see God, you just can not actually say it out loud. Once again the paradox is yours, not ours.

LOL... You are the one who believes in the unknowable mystery of the Trinitarian God, not us. I have no problem understanding God because I do not have to adhere to conflicting doctrine as you do.

I have no idea as to what your point is here??? Your shotgun approach to posting multiple verses ripped out of context which have nothing to do with each other simply shows how little you understand about what you post and shows that you are just hoping you'll get lucky and something will stick. Is this how they told you to confront Mormons in your AntiMormon cl***? Because it ain't working, it is actually having the opposite effect, it makes me never want to be a part of your hodge-podge of made up and conflicting doctrine and misinterpreted scripture.
I see four different unrelated topics in the scriptures and quotes you posted, and I am not sure if you even understand what you posted.

I guess you don't understand your Bible.

[theway]

No, you do NOT teach that all men will be saved, but only a "select few."

In Christian Love,

GrandmaYes and no...
We teach that through the Atonement of Christ ALL mankind WILL be saved from physical death. In other words, all men and women who ever lived will be resurrected to their perfect body never to die again.
We also believe that through the Atonement of Christ ALL mankind MAY be saved spiritually.... All one has to do is choose Christ and follow Him... That is not the same as "only a select few" but is "only the few who have selected"

[Grandma]

Yes and no...
We teach that through the Atonement of Christ ALL mankind WILL be saved from physical death. In other words, all men and women who ever lived will be resurrected to their perfect body never to die again.
We also believe that through the Atonement of Christ ALL mankind MAY be saved spiritually.... All one has to do is choose Christ and follow Him... That is not the same as "only a select few" but is "only the few who have selected"

From the LDS Guide to the Scriptures:
The elect are those who love God with all their hearts and live lives that are pleasing to him. Those who live such lives of discipleship will one day be selected by the Lord to be among his chosen children.


"The Church of the Firstborn is the church among exalted beings in the highest heaven of the celestial world. It is the church among those for whom the family unit continues in eternity. In a sense it is the inner circle within the Lord's church on earth. It is composed of those who have entered into that patriarchal order which is called the new and everlasting covenant of marriage. As baptism admits repentant souls to membership in the earthly church, so celestial marriage opens the door to membership in the heavenly church."
Bruce R. McConkie, New Witness for the Articles of Faith

Love,

Grandma

[theway]

From the LDS Guide to the Scriptures:
The elect are those who love God with all their hearts and live lives that are pleasing to him. Those who live such lives of discipleship will one day be selected by the Lord to be among his chosen children.


"The Church of the Firstborn is the church among exalted beings in the highest heaven of the celestial world. It is the church among those for whom the family unit continues in eternity. In a sense it is the inner circle within the Lord's church on earth. It is composed of those who have entered into that patriarchal order which is called the new and everlasting covenant of marriage. As baptism admits repentant souls to membership in the earthly church, so celestial marriage opens the door to membership in the heavenly church."
Bruce R. McConkie, New Witness for the Articles of Faith

Love,

GrandmaYour point is???

I can't tell whether you are agreeing with me or not by posting this?

[MickeyS]

Paul didn't lie and he didn't teach about three kingdoms with different levels. Paul never used the word Telestial for ANYTHING. The words that Paul wrote came from God.

Paul taught us about two bodies: the natural one that we have on earth (that will decompose) and the spiritual one that is resurrected and immortal. (1 Cor. 15)

Jesus explained that His sheep will be on His right and the wicked (represented as goats) will be on this left. He eternally separates good from evil. (Matt. 25)



41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

One, two....oh three. So what's that third one then?

[Grandma]

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

One, two....oh three. So what's that third one then?

1. The atmosphere around the earth. Psalm 104:12 By them shall the fowls of the heaven have their habitation, which sing among the branches. James 5:18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.

2. Outer space where the stars and planets are. Mark 13 24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

3. The dwelling place of God, otherwise called the heaven of heavens. 1 Kings 8:49 Then hear thou their prayer and their supplication in heaven thy dwelling place, and maintain their cause,

[MickeyS]

You aren’t omniscient, are you? How do you know who is chosen and who isn’t?

Do you believe that people are chosen by God to be eligible for Heaven or Hell regardless of what they do???

[MickeyS]

1. The atmosphere around the earth. Psalm 104:12 By them shall the fowls of the heaven have their habitation, which sing among the branches. James 5:18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.

2. Outer space where the stars and planets are. Mark 13 24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

3. The dwelling place of God, otherwise called the heaven of heavens. 1 Kings 8:49 Then hear thou their prayer and their supplication in heaven thy dwelling place, and maintain their cause,

Interesting, so 1- terrestrial 2-telestial and 3-celestial. Yeah, that's what we said

[Grandma]

Do you believe that people are chosen by God to be eligible for Heaven or Hell regardless of what they do???

I'm sorry I didn't see this question earlier. I think people who follow Satan end up in hell: such as "sorcerers, and *****mongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."

God didn't make us love sin. As for those who have been born again ---they are kind and loving, obedient to Christ's commandments. God had mercy on them while they were still sinners and now they serve God instead of Satan. They are being changed into Christ's image.

Love,

Grandma

[alanmolstad]

So they never sin?...

There is no condemnation ....We are forgiven, but not always"better".

We have a relationship, we are not our own.
None of us are ever lost, the Good Shepherd never returns home from searching for one of his own empty handed...

[theway]

I'm sorry I didn't see this question earlier. I think people who follow Satan end up in hell: such as "sorcerers, and *****mongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."

God didn't make us love sin. As for those who have been born again ---they are kind and loving, obedient to Christ's commandments. God had mercy on them while they were still sinners and now they serve God instead of Satan. They are being changed into Christ's image.

Love,

GrandmaWow.... You missed your calling, you should have been a politician.
This was one of the longest non-answers I've seen, chuck full of useless pla***udes and misdirection....but no answer to the question which was asked of you.

But it does prove me correct on my other point.
You believe Bad Works to be all powerful when it comes to salvation, even more powerful than God's Will; yet you believe Good Works have no power to change anything and therefore mean nothing.

Just another Opposite Day in the world of Modern Evangelical Christianity I see....

[Christian]

Thanks for pointing out that Irenaeus was born only 35-65 years after the first books of the New Testament were written and would of better of been able to understand its meanings given that he also said he got his knowledge from those who were actually taught by the Apostles themselves....
I'll take that understanding over someone 2000 years latter who contradicts everything that the Early Christians believed to have been true, and who completely ignores the Bible as it was meant to be understood.

So you think the Apostle Paul lived to be HOW MANY years old?

Sorry but STILL nothing CITED from Irenaeus in which he supposedly subscribed to joey smith's theory that you can be exalted to become gods of your own little worlds.

Not ONE CITATION that EVEN ONE CHRISTIAN ever believed joey smith's fairytales.

[Grandma]

So they never sin?...


They sin less because they love God, they are following the Shepherd, they ask forgiveness, they are being changed into the image of Christ, they recognize that they can do no good apart from Christ.

2 Corinthians 5
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are p***ed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Thanking God for His gift to us and the love He puts in our hearts for others,

Grandma

[Grandma]

Since when did being a Christian mean you will never face condemnation? If people don't repent, Christians included, the unrepentant, disobediant will have difficulty entering into the kingdom of Heaven. Having a relationship with Christ doesn't make salvation 100%. Judas had a relationship with Christ and look what happened to him.
So your believe is its impossible for a Christian to not get into Heaven? That is very far off from the scriptures.

We will appear before the judgment seat and be declared righteous if we were born again.

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

1 John 4
16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. 17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 19 We love him, because he first loved us. 20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? 21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

1 John 3:14
We know that we have p***ed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.


Christians repented when they were delivered from the power of Satan unto God.

1 Corinthians 6
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners are Christians.

Romans 6
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

[Grandma]

1st, who ever said they sin less. 2nd, even if people do sin less, sinning is sinning and always requires repentance.

Read the Bible! Christians are walking in the LIGHT.

Ephesians 5
8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: 9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth; ) 10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

1 John 3:24
And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

If they are following Christ, He isn't leading them into sin. We are no longer under the dominion of sin.

Romans 4:8
Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Psalm 32:1-2
The Providence of God
1 {A Psalm of David, Maschil.} Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.

2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Love,

Grandma

[theway]

They sin less because they love God, they are following the Shepherd, they ask forgiveness, they are being changed into the image of Christ, they recognize that they can do
no good apart from Christ.
"They sin less"???
Where did this silly unbiblical doctrine come from? God said if you love me you will keep my commandments, God has never said if you love me "sin less" or "do your best".
God has only ever said directly to "sin no more" and "be ye therefore perfect".

Does this mean you believe if I killed 2 people and raped 2 people one year; then became saved, and only killed 1 person the next year, that that is proof that I love God and follow the Shepherd because I sinned less?

Perhaps you believe that it is not a matter of the number of sins, but the degree? What if I killed 2 people and raped 2 people one year, but after I got saved I killed no one but still raped 2 people.... Is that proof that I love God and follow the Shepherd because my sins weren't as bad as they were before?

This silly, nonsensical, heretical, and contradictory modern Christianity is so unbiblical it is entertaining and funny.

[dberrie2000]

Wicked people are warned about the consequences of sin, and it won't be a Kingdom of Glory!

Could you relate to us where you find different degrees of glory within eternal life?

1 Corinthians 15:40-41---King James Version (KJV)
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

[dberrie2000]

We will appear before the judgment seat and be declared righteous if we were born again.

Grandma--the scriptures testify that all will be judged according to works--after death--and that for life or ****ation:

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

If that is true--then faith alone theology is false--but it's very friendly to LDS theology.

[Grandma]

Repentance isn't a one time deal. You have to do it whenever you sin. Its not "I accept Jesus. Yay free p***!" This idea is a mockery of what Jesus did for us.

I guess you forgot to read my posts before you responded.

[Grandma]

"They sin less"???
Where did this silly unbiblical doctrine come from? God said if you love me you will keep my commandments, God has never said if you love me "sin less" or "do your best".
God has only ever said directly to "sin no more" and "be ye therefore perfect".

God has said a lot more than that!

Now you probably want to say that all Mormons are perfect.

Mormons have the nerve to say online, "None of us can be perfect in this life. 2 Nephi 25:23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."

Now let's talk about the Bible:

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Philippians 1
3 I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, 4 Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy, 5 For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; 6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

1 Corinthians 1
4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ; 5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge; 6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: 7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: 8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

Mormons say:

"One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation."
Spencer W. Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 206

"The sectarian dogma of justification by faith alone has exercised an influence for evil. The idea upon which this pernicious doctrine was founded was at first ***ociated with that of an absolute predestination, by which man was foredoomed to destruction, or to an undeserved salvation."
James E. Talmage, The Articles of Faith, p. 480

Do Mormons think they'll deserve eternal life/exaltation if they fall short of the glory of God?

Love,

Grandma

[Grandma]

Where do you get that he wants to say mormons are perfect? You love to ***ume a lot. God has never said to sin less. What did Christ say to the woman who committed adultery? Think very hard about it.

Salvation is a process, not an event.

He didn't ask me what God said. Do you think you sin less than the drunk guy in the bar? Do you think you're already conformed to the image of Christ? I'm already saved. After salvation we are being transformed into the people God wants us to be.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Romans 9:16
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Sanctification is an ongoing and progressive work in our lives. We will not be completely freed from sin until we receive our resurrection bodies at the last day.

Love,

Grandma

[theway]

God has said a lot more than that!

Now you probably want to say that all Mormons are perfect.

Mormons have the nerve to say online, "None of us can be perfect in this life. 2 Nephi 25:23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."

Now let's talk about the Bible:

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Philippians 1
3 I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, 4 Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy, 5 For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; 6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

1 Corinthians 1
4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ; 5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge; 6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: 7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: 8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

Mormons say:

"One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation."
Spencer W. Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 206

"The sectarian dogma of justification by faith alone has exercised an influence for evil. The idea upon which this pernicious doctrine was founded was at first ***ociated with that of an absolute predestination, by which man was foredoomed to destruction, or to an undeserved salvation."
James E. Talmage, The Articles of Faith, p. 480

Do Mormons think they'll deserve eternal life/exaltation if they fall short of the glory of God?

Love,

Grandma
I'm not even going to read this because I already know you are not about to answer my question, nor will any scriptures you posted have anything whatsoever to do with my post.
If others want to read all the way though your post, they will find that I am right.

BTW, my question to you was, where in the Bible has God said it was ever His Will that you "sin less"?

[theway]

He didn't ask me what God said. Do tou think you sin less than the drunk guy in the bar? Do you think you're already conformed to the image of Christ? Why would I even want to gauge my life by the worst example you can think of? Do you believe that you should not be expected to be better than the worst person out there?

God has said to gauge your life against His; you are to be perfect as He and His Father in Heaven is perfect! Nothing less.
This appears to be what your problem is, you have set your bar as low as it can go thinking this is all God expects of you.


I'm already saved. After salvation we are being transformed into the people God wants us to be. You can not be saved and at the same time still be transforming... God does not save people in their sins, only from them. If you continue to sin you serve the master of sin, God would not save you while you yet still serve two masters.



Sanctification is an ongoing and progressive work in our lives. We will not be completely freed from sin until we receive our resurrection bodies at the last day.

Love,

GrandmaIf you believe you are already saved and can not lose that salvation, then Santification is a useless and unnecessary act. God is perfect; perfection is economy. God does not do things which serve no purpose.

It's either that, or you don't believe God's power was strong enough to actually have changed your life when He supposedly made you Born Again.

This theory that "God does it all" is just a way for you to be able to blame God for your faults.

[alanmolstad]

transforming the heart....being saved.


Salvation , if you mean being saved, only takes a second, lasts forever, and cant be ever changed.

Salvation, if you mean transforming your heart, can take your whole life...

[Grandma]

Since when did being a Christian mean you will never face condemnation?

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

If God gives you the new birth, it's permanent.


John 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

[theway]

O
transforming the heart....being saved.


Salvation , if you mean being saved, only takes a second, lasts forever, and cant be ever changed.

Salvation, if you mean transforming your heart, can take your whole life...Sorry, but you can not be saved without transforming your heart first...

Psalm 24:3-4
3 Who may ascend into the hill of the LORD? And who may stand in His holy place?
4 He who has clean hands and a pure heart, Who has not lifted up his soul to falsehood And has not sworn deceitfully.

[theway]

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

If God gives you the new birth, it's permanent.

John 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.Yes it's permanent, until the time YOU decide otherwise.

Although once again, I have no clue as to why you post the scriptures you do as they have nothing to do with what we are talking about.

[Grandma]

Why would I even want to gauge my life by the worst example you can think of? Do you believe that you should not be expected to be better than the worst person out there?
God has said to gauge your life against His; you are to be perfect as He and His Father in Heaven is perfect! Nothing less.
This appears to be what your problem is, you have set your bar as low as it can go thinking this is all God expects of you.



You can not be saved and at the same time still be transforming... God does not save people in their sins, only from them. If you continue to sin you serve the master of sin, God would not save you while you yet still serve two masters.

You cannot make yourself perfect. If God has chosen to bring you to complete sanctification, who are you to tell Him He has to do it in YOUR time frame?

Who was Paul serving after his Damascus Road experience --- God or Satan?

Destruction of sin is certain, because we don't fight the battle alone and we are no longer under Satan's power.

16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.


If you believe you are already saved and can not lose that salvation, then Santification is a useless and unnecessary act. God is perfect; perfection is economy. God does not do things which serve no purpose.

Do you think you know everything there is to know about God's purposes? His thoughts are not your thoughts. Are you telling the Potter that He should be finished right now?



It's either that, or you don't believe God's power was strong enough to actually have changed your life when He supposedly made you Born Again.

This theory that "God does it all" is just a way for you to be able to blame God for your faults.

Nope. God doesn't sin nor does He lead people into sin! You should be ashamed for thinking a Christian would say such a stupid thing! Do you think we are still under Satan's power? Thanks.

[Grandma]

Why would I even want to gauge my life by the worst example you can think of? Do you believe that you should not be expected to be better than the worst person out there?

Overcoming sin doesn't make us better. I'm not better than my neighbor or my brother in Chtist.



God has said to gauge your life against His; you are to be perfect as He and His Father in Heaven is perfect! Nothing less.
This appears to be what your problem is, you have set your bar as low as it can go thinking this is all God expects of you.

I didn't even set the bar! God's plan and my goal are perfection.



You can not be saved and at the same time still be transforming... God does not save people in their sins, only from them. If you continue to sin you serve the master of sin, God would not save you while you yet still serve two masters.

You cannot make yourself perfect. If God has chosen to bring you to complete sanctification, who are you to tell Him He has to do it in YOUR time frame? And if you are saved, He is the Shepherd who leads you to do what pleases Him.

Who was Paul serving after his Damascus Road experience --- God or Satan?

Destruction of sin is certain, because we don't fight the battle alone and we are no longer under Satan's power.

Galatians 5
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

If you fall, you get back up with Christ's help and you continue to serve Him.



If you believe you are already saved and can not lose that salvation, then Santification is a useless and unnecessary act. God is perfect; perfection is economy. God does not do things which serve no purpose.

Who are you to tell God that sanctification is useless and unnecessary?

Do you think you know everything there is to know about God's purposes? His thoughts are not your thoughts. Are you telling the Potter that He should be finished right now?



It's either that, or you don't believe God's power was strong enough to actually have changed your life when He supposedly made you Born Again.

Who changed my heart? Can you see my heart?



This theory that "God does it all" is just a way for you to be able to blame God for your faults.

Nope. God doesn't sin nor does He lead people into sin! You should be ashamed for thinking a Christian would say such a stupid thing! Do you think we are still under Satan's power? Thanks. Instead of seeking to blame someone for my weaknesses, I ask for God's forgiveness and strength.


Psalm 73:26
My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever.

Are there any Christians outside the Mormon church?

Love,

Grandma

[Grandma]

Yes it's permanent, until the time YOU decide otherwise.

Although once again, I have no clue as to why you post the scriptures you do as they have nothing to do with what we are talking about.

Just because you don't see something, doesn't mean it isn't there.

[theway]

Do you think you know everything there is to know about God's purposes? His thoughts are not your thoughts. Its not necessary to know everything, it is absolutely necessary to know what one needs to do to be saved... God can not save you in ignorance, only innocence.... And we certainly aren't innocent. Don't you believe that one has to at least know that they don't have to do anything to be saved?


Are you telling the Potter that He should be finished right now?
LOL.... That's exactly what you're telling God, only you're saying "I have a belief in God, God has saved me, it is finished"
OSAS and Faith Alone are so unbiblical I don't know where to begin.

This theory that "God does it all" is just a way for you to be able to blame God for your faults.

Nope. God doesn't sin nor does Helead people into sin! You should be ashamed for thinking a Christian would say such a stupid thing! Do you think we are still under Satan's power? Thanks.Im only following the bread crumbs your theology lays down. If God does it all, then you are blaming God for not perfecting you by holding off on sanctification before He saved you....... Which by the way contradicts your belief that it all happens at the same time.
It's not my fault you can not solve the contradictions in your beliefs, nor is it God's fault....
SO STOP BLAMING US.... put the blame where it belongs, on your theology.

[theway]

Just because you don't see something, doesn't mean it isn't there.
Yeah my paranoid schizophrenia brother tells me the same thing;)

However, maybe it's not that I don't see anything, maybe it's that I can see through it.

[Grandma]

Its not necessary to know everything, it is absolutely necessary to know what one needs to do to be saved...
Do you think you can do something to manipulate God?



God can not save you in ignorance, only innocence.... And we certainly aren't innocent.

Cite your Bible reference, please.



Don't you believe that one has to at least know that they don't have to do anything to be saved?

No doubt God uses the Bible to teach the elect. There's nothing missing from the Bible about salvation or instruction in the kind of life He wants us to lead,



LOL.... That's exactly what you're telling God, only you're saying "I have a belief in God, God has saved me, it is finished"
OSAS and Faith Alone are so unbiblical I don't know where to begin.

You don't know your Bible. God isn't finished with me or He would have taken me to heaven. He knows the plans He has.



Im only following the bread crumbs your theology lays down. If God does it all, then you are blaming God for not perfecting you by holding off on sanctification before He saved you....... Which by the way contradicts your belief that it all happens at the same time.

You get so confused that you don't know what I said.




It's not my fault you can not solve the contradictions in your beliefs, nor is it God's fault....
SO STOP BLAMING US.... put the blame where it belongs, on your theology.

There are no contradictions.

[Christian]

So you think Paul lied about there being different degrees of glory?


What Paul said about the sun, moon and stars HAD NOTHING TO DO with places you go when you die. Your cult leader INVENTED that junk.

[theway]

What Paul said about the sun, moon and stars HAD NOTHING TO DO with places you go when you die. Your cult leader INVENTED that junk.
Really??? Then please explain the following explanations of the verse by the Early Church Leaders?


Our understanding of the p***age indeed is, that the Apostle, wishing to describe the great difference among those who rise again in glory, i.e., of the saints, borrowed a comparison from the heavenly bodies, saying, "One is the glory of the sun, another the glory of the moon, another the glory of the stars."
Origen, De Principiis 2:10:2, in ANF 4:294.

And


And having said this, he ascends again to the heaven, saying, "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon." For as in the earthly bodies there is a difference, so also in the heavenly; and that difference no ordinary one, but reaching even to the uttermost: there being not only a difference between sun and moon, and stars, but also between stars and stars. For what though they be all in the heaven? yet some have a larger, others a less share of glory. What do we learn from hence? That although they be all in God's kingdom, all shall not enjoy the same reward; and though all sinners be in hell, all shall not endure the same punishment.
John Chrysostom, Homilies on 1 Corinthians 41:4, in NPNF Series 1, 12:251.

[Grandma]

Bible: 1 Corinthians 6:
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.



Mormonism:
Within the telestial glory there will be varying degrees of glory even as the stars vary in brightness as we see them. It embraces those who on earth willfully reject the gospel of Jesus Christ, and commit serious sins such as murder, adultery, lying, and loving to make a lie (but yet do not commit the unpardonable sin), and who do not repent in mortality. They will be cleansed in the postmortal spirit world or spirit prison before the resurrection (D&C 76:81-85, 98-106; Rev. 22:15). Telestial inhabitants as innumerable as the stars will come forth in the last resurrection and then be "servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come" (D&C 76:112). Although the least of the degrees of glory, yet the Telestial Kingdom "surp***es all understanding" (D&C 76:89). [See also Degrees of Glory.] CLYDE J. WILLIAMS

[dberrie2000]

What Paul said about the sun, moon and stars HAD NOTHING TO DO with places you go when you die.

What is your evidence of that?

1 Corinthians 15:40-42--King James Version (KJV)
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

The sun, moon, and stars were related to the glory.

Are you claiming the resurrection of the dead has nothing to do with dying?

[dberrie2000]

There's nothing missing from the Bible about salvation or instruction in the kind of life He wants us to lead,

Then why can't the faith alone comport their theology to the Bible?


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Grandma View Post There's nothing missing from the Bible about salvation or instruction in the kind of life He wants us to lead,

Then why can't the faith alone comport their theology to the Bible?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Bump for anyone

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Grandma View Post There's nothing missing from the Bible about salvation or instruction in the kind of life He wants us to lead,

Could you comport faith alone theology to the Bible?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Bump for anyone

[Christian]

Could you comport faith alone theology to the Bible?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Bump for anyone

ALL you have is PART OF A SENTENCE, RIPPED OUT OF CONTEXT, so you 'redneck' a few words to overemphasize them, making that phrase sound like it says something its writer never meant it to say?


HOW RIDICULOUS and INFANTILE is that?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostCould you comport faith alone theology to the Bible?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;



ALL you have is PART OF A SENTENCE, RIPPED OUT OF CONTEXT, so you 'redneck' a few words to overemphasize them, making that phrase sound like it says something its writer never meant it to say?

HOW RIDICULOUS and INFANTILE is that?

What do you feel is "ripped out of context" about the above scripture?

Christian--you do realize that is the common retort those make whenever scriptures are posted which defies their theology?

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

[hogan60]

Matthew 25:46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." Jesus indicates that punishment in hell is just as everlasting as life in heaven. Two destinations. Do you know where you will spend eternity?

[dberrie2000]

Matthew 25:46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." Jesus indicates that punishment in hell is just as everlasting as life in heaven. Two destinations. Do you know where you will spend eternity?

Hi Hogan:

Whether I do or don't--it won't change what the scriptures testify to:

2 John 9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

The truthfulness of the scriptures is not contingent on what you or I do, IMO.

[hogan60]

Hi Hogan:

Whether I do or don't--it won't change what the scriptures testify to:

2 John 9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

The truthfulness of the scriptures is not contingent on what you or I do, IMO.

What does this have to do with hell being an everlasting punishment?

[dberrie2000]

What does this have to do with hell being an everlasting punishment?

Hi Hogan:

My answer was in relation to your question, specifically--


Originally Posted by hogan60 View Post Do you know where you will spend eternity?

IOW--whevever you or I--or anyone else --will spend eternity is up to God to judge--but wherever one will spend eternity--the scriptures still testify obedience to Christ is necessary for His grace unto life:

1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

[hogan60]

Hi Hogan:

My answer was in relation to your question, specifically--



IOW--whevever you or I--or anyone else --will spend eternity is up to God to judge--but wherever one will spend eternity--the scriptures still testify obedience to Christ is necessary for His grace unto life:

1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Hi dberrie, I'm sure you know that we cannot take out one scripture and try to make a case or doctrine out of it. Other scriptures must come in agreement. There's nothing in 1 Tim 4:16 that says anything about earning salvation through works. Paul wrote to Timothy who was a born again pastor. (saved) Paul is giving him instructions to take heed of (watch) his lifestyle and doctrine. By doing so Timothy and his parishioners will not fall away from the truth. Read what else Timothy teaches on the subject:

2Tim, 1:9 He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace.

1Tim 1;16 "And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in him for eternal life.

These 2 verses in Timothy says BELIEF is necessary for salvation. Not anything we do.

Where we spend eternity is up to US. Jesus' blood sacrifice offers forgiveness and eternal life if we will believe it.

Joshua 24: Choose you this day whom you will serve...as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

Where you will spend eternity is really up to YOU.

[dberrie2000]

Hi dberrie, I'm sure you know that we cannot take out one scripture and try to make a case or doctrine out of it. Other scriptures must come in agreement. There's nothing in 1 Tim 4:16 that says anything about earning salvation through works. Paul wrote to Timothy who was a born again pastor. (saved) Paul is giving him instructions to take heed of (watch) his lifestyle and doctrine. By doing so Timothy and his parishioners will not fall away from the truth. Read what else Timothy teaches on the subject:

2Tim, 1:9 He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace.

1Tim 1;16 "And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in him for eternal life.

These 2 verses in Timothy says BELIEF is necessary for salvation. Not anything we do.

Hi Hogan:

For me--that is kinda like this exchange:

Tom: Bill, I have a house for sale.

Bill: How much?

Tom:100k--but the roof needs repair.

Bill: Wait a minute--you said house--you said nothing about a roof!

Hogan--when you find the term "faith, belief" in the Bible--are you inferring that is a reference to a faith without works? That same heresy seemed to permeate the early church--and this was the response:

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Words, in the English language-- represent the whole of all the integral components that make it up, IE--

Term: Car
Integral components: engine, transmission, wheels, doors, windows, etc.

Term: House
Integral components: foundation, roof, walls, flooring, etc.

Term: faith
Integral components: trust, repentance, water baptism, service, belief, endurance, obeying commandments, etc.

So--were these saved prior to the remission of sins--or after?

Acts 2:38-42---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

[hogan60]

Hi Hogan:

For me--that is kinda like this exchange:

Tom: Bill, I have a house for sale.

Bill: How much?

Tom:100k--but the roof needs repair.

Bill: Wait a minute--you said house--you said nothing about a roof!

Hogan--when you find the term "faith, belief" in the Bible--are you inferring that is a reference to a faith without works? That same heresy seemed to permeate the early church--and this was the response:

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Words, in the English language-- represent the whole of all the integral components that make it up, IE--

Term: Car
Integral components: engine, transmission, wheels, doors, windows, etc.

Term: House
Integral components: foundation, roof, walls, flooring, etc.

Term: faith
Integral components: trust, repentance, water baptism, service, belief, endurance, obeying commandments, etc.

So--were these saved prior to the remission of sins--or after?

Acts 2:38-42---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

You are getting everything mixed up because you don't understand WHO James (or Peter) was writing to and why. James was one of the earliest of NT books. He gives no indication that he had any knowledge of Paul's ministry or the gospel of grace which Paul said Christ taught him.

Peter NEVER taught Christ's death, burial and resurrection as the way to salvation. It hadn't been revealed yet until Paul's conversion and the start of his ministry.

Peter taught the same thing John the baptist taught: repentance and water baptism. NOTHING about the cross. Nothing about Christ's shed blood for forgiveness of sin. They couldn't teach it because it hadn't happened yet! The Holy Bible clearly teaches that without the shedding of blood there can be NO remission of sin.

Study the Bible and leave the BoM for awhile.

[hogan60]

Hi Hogan:

For me--that is kinda like this exchange:

Tom: Bill, I have a house for sale.

Bill: How much?

Tom:100k--but the roof needs repair.

Bill: Wait a minute--you said house--you said nothing about a roof!

Hogan--when you find the term "faith, belief" in the Bible--are you inferring that is a reference to a faith without works? That same heresy seemed to permeate the early church--and this was the response:

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Words, in the English language-- represent the whole of all the integral components that make it up, IE--

Term: Car
Integral components: engine, transmission, wheels, doors, windows, etc.

Term: House
Integral components: foundation, roof, walls, flooring, etc.

Term: faith
Integral components: trust, repentance, water baptism, service, belief, endurance, obeying commandments, etc.

So--were these saved prior to the remission of sins--or after?

Acts 2:38-42---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

You are getting everything mixed up because you don't understand WHO James (or Peter) was writing to and why. James was one of the earliest of NT books. He gives no indication that he had any knowledge of Paul's ministry or the gospel of grace which Paul said Christ taught him.

Peter NEVER taught Christ's death, burial and resurrection as the way to salvation. It hadn't been revealed yet until Paul's conversion and the start of his ministry.

Peter taught the same thing John the baptist taught: repentance and water baptism. NOTHING about the cross. Nothing about Christ's shed blood for forgiveness of sin. They couldn't teach it because it hadn't happened yet! The Holy Bible clearly teaches that without the shedding of blood there can be NO remission of sin.

Study the Bible and set down the BoM for awhile.

[hogan60]

Hi Hogan:

For me--that is kinda like this exchange:

Tom: Bill, I have a house for sale.

Bill: How much?

Tom:100k--but the roof needs repair.

Bill: Wait a minute--you said house--you said nothing about a roof!

Hogan--when you find the term "faith, belief" in the Bible--are you inferring that is a reference to a faith without works? That same heresy seemed to permeate the early church--and this was the response:

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Words, in the English language-- represent the whole of all the integral components that make it up, IE--

Term: Car
Integral components: engine, transmission, wheels, doors, windows, etc.

Term: House
Integral components: foundation, roof, walls, flooring, etc.

Term: faith
Integral components: trust, repentance, water baptism, service, belief, endurance, obeying commandments, etc.

So--were these saved prior to the remission of sins--or after?

Acts 2:38-42---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

You are getting everything mixed up because you don't understand WHO James (or Peter) was writing to and why. James was one of the earliest of NT books. He gives no indication that he had any knowledge of Paul's ministry or the gospel of grace which Paul said Christ taught him.

Peter NEVER taught Christ's death, burial and resurrection as the way to salvation. It hadn't been revealed yet until Paul's conversion and the start of his ministry.

Peter taught the same thing John the baptist taught: repentance and water baptism. NOTHING about the cross. Nothing about Christ's shed blood for forgiveness of sin. They couldn't teach it because it hadn't happened yet! The Holy Bible clearly teaches that without the shedding of blood there can be NO remission of sin. (Heb.9:22) Animal sacrifices in the OT economy. Jesus' shed blood in the NT economy.

Study the Bible and set down the BoM for awhile.

[dberrie2000]

The Holy Bible clearly teaches that without the shedding of blood there can be NO remission of sin. (Heb.9:22)

Hi Hogan:

Exactly--so, when Peter taught repentance and water baptism for the remission of sins--following the death, burial and resurrection of Christ--that was due to Christ's Blood sacrifice--correct?

Acts 2:38--King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[hogan60]

Hi Hogan:

Exactly--so, when Peter taught repentance and water baptism for the remission of sins--following the death, burial and resurrection of Christ--that was due to Christ's Blood sacrifice--correct?

Acts 2:38--King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Jesus, Peter and the apostles, all taught the same thing John the Baptist did: the gospel of the kingdom which was for Jew only. It was not the Gospel of grace because they were Jews living under the OT economy which included law keeping. After Jesus’ resurrection and ascension, the gospel of the kingdom continued to be preached by Peter and the other apostles (It began with John the Baptist and stopped in the middle of Acts.) (Acts 15:11) in which repentance, baptism, and faith plus works were required. Their message was that Jesus was the Messiah, the Son of God. Nothing about believing in Christ's death, burial and resurrection which is the heart of Paul's Gospel.

Paul wrote in 1 Cor. 1:15: "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures

The gospel of the kingdom ended in Jewish unbelief. God set it aside (until the body of Christ is completed) and turned to the Gentiles and chose Paul to preach the Gospel of grace which is faith alone in Christ alone plus nothing.

dberrie, do you believe that Christ's shed blood was sufficient to bring complete forgiveness, or do you believe it wasn't enough and that you need to be worthy through your own good efforts?

[dberrie2000]

Jesus, Peter and the apostles, all taught the same thing John the Baptist did: the gospel of the kingdom which was for Jew only. It was not the Gospel of grace because they were Jews living under the OT economy which included law keeping. After Jesus’ resurrection and ascension, the gospel of the kingdom continued to be preached by Peter and the other apostles (It began with John the Baptist and stopped in the middle of Acts.) (Acts 15:11) in which repentance, baptism, and faith plus works were required.

Since when did repentance and water baptism stop in the middle of Acts--or faith plus works being required for His grace unto life?

Matthew 28:19-20---King James Version (KJV)
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


Paul wrote in 1 Cor. 1:15: "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures

The gospel of the kingdom ended in Jewish unbelief. God set it aside (until the body of Christ is completed) and turned to the Gentiles and chose Paul to preach the Gospel of grace which is faith alone in Christ alone plus nothing.

If it requires nothing more--then why are all jusged according to works--after death--and that for life or ****ation?

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Could you identify who the "we" are here?

1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, p*** the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Romans 2:5-11----King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.



dberrie, do you believe that Christ's shed blood was sufficient to bring complete forgiveness, or do you believe it wasn't enough and that you need to be worthy through your own good efforts?

I believe God's shed Blood is sufficient for all men to inherit eternal life--as it was an Atonement for all men, as a free gift.

Just as a college is sufficient for all men to obtain an education--as a free gift.

In order to obtain a degree--one must follow the criteria the college sets.

In order to obtain eternal life--as a personal reception--one must follow the criteria the Redeemer sets:

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

That connects obedience and eternal life.

Matthew 19:16-19--King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

[hogan60]

Since when did repentance and water baptism stop in the middle of Acts--or faith plus works being required for His grace unto life?

Matthew 28:19-20---King James Version (KJV)
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.



If it requires nothing more--then why are all jusged according to works--after death--and that for life or ****ation?

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Could you identify who the "we" are here?

1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, p*** the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Romans 2:5-11----King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.




I believe God's shed Blood is sufficient for all men to inherit eternal life--as it was an Atonement for all men, as a free gift.

Just as a college is sufficient for all men to obtain an education--as a free gift.

In order to obtain a degree--one must follow the criteria the college sets.

In order to obtain eternal life--as a personal reception--one must follow the criteria the Redeemer sets:

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

That connects obedience and eternal life.

Matthew 19:16-19--King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

dberrie, did Christ's blood sacrifice cover every sin or just some?

[hogan60]

Since when did repentance and water baptism stop in the middle of Acts--or faith plus works being required for His grace unto life?

Matthew 28:19-20---King James Version (KJV)
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.



If it requires nothing more--then why are all jusged according to works--after death--and that for life or ****ation?

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Could you identify who the "we" are here?

1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, p*** the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Romans 2:5-11----King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.




I believe God's shed Blood is sufficient for all men to inherit eternal life--as it was an Atonement for all men, as a free gift.

Just as a college is sufficient for all men to obtain an education--as a free gift.

In order to obtain a degree--one must follow the criteria the college sets.

In order to obtain eternal life--as a personal reception--one must follow the criteria the Redeemer sets:

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

That connects obedience and eternal life.

Matthew 19:16-19--King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The "we" in 2 Cor. 5:10 are Christians. This is not to determine heaven or hell. It's not to judge us for our sins, because the believers sins have already been judged totally and completely at the Cross. We will never again have to face our sins. Christians will stand before Christ to see if they are going to receive a reward.

This is NOT the Great White Throne Judgment where the unsaved will go. They have been judged (condemned) already.

dberrie, can you tell me how was Abraham justified? (saved) Was it membership to the right church? Was it obedience to the 10 Commandments? What was it?

[hogan60]

Since when did repentance and water baptism stop in the middle of Acts--or faith plus works being required for His grace unto life?

.

Acts 2:38

"Then Peter said unto them, ‘Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost,’"

Everyone of them would have had to be converted and accept Christ as their Messiah. Then God would have given them the King and set up the Kingdom. Peter also says in Acts 3:26. "Repent and be baptized." Who began that message? John the Baptist. Compare this with Paul’s answer to the jailer in Acts 16. Paul is not talking to the Nation of Israel, he’s talking to a Gentile. And when this Gentile asks what he must do to be saved, what does Paul tell him?


"And they (Paul and Silas) said, ‘Believe on The Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.’"

Does it say Repent and be baptized? No, that was the Jewish program. So the jailer said, "What must I do?" The answer is simple: "Only Believe on The Lord Jesus Christ."

[dberrie2000]

Acts 2:38

"Then Peter said unto them, ‘Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost,’"

Everyone of them would have had to be converted and accept Christ as their Messiah.

Acts 2:38--King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Why would anyone repent or be baptized if they did not have faith in Christ?

The question being--were those of Acts2:38 saved prior to the remission of sins?


Then God would have given them the King and set up the Kingdom. Peter also says in Acts 3:26. "Repent and be baptized." Who began that message? John the Baptist. Compare this with Paul’s answer to the jailer in Acts 16. Paul is not talking to the Nation of Israel, he’s talking to a Gentile. And when this Gentile asks what he must do to be saved, what does Paul tell him?

"And they (Paul and Silas) said, ‘Believe on The Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.’"

Does it say Repent and be baptized? No, that was the Jewish program. So the jailer said, "What must I do?" The answer is simple: "Only Believe on The Lord Jesus Christ."

Acts 16 sets out a sequence:

Acts 16:31-34---King James Version (KJV)
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.


1) Commanded to believe in the Lord

2) Spake to him the word of the Lord

3) Baptized all his

4) pronounced as "believing in God"

Hogan--what is your evidence repenting and being water baptized is integral to believing in Christ---just as a roof is integral to a house?

Again--when you find the term "faith" in the Bible--is that a reference to a faith with works--or a faith without works?

Also--please notice the Word of the Lord--and their connection here:


Acts 2:38-42---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Acts 16:31-34---King James Version (KJV)
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

[hogan60]

[B]

The question being--were those of Acts2:38 saved prior to the remission of sins?



.

dberrie, those who were saved before Christ shed his blood on the cross were of the OT economy. It was animal sacrifice that covered their sins until Christ came.

[dberrie2000]

dberrie, those who were saved before Christ shed his blood on the cross were of the OT economy. It was animal sacrifice that covered their sins until Christ came.

Hi Hogan:

The question was--were those of Acts2:38 saved prior to the remission of sins?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[hogan60]

Hi Hogan:

The question was--were those of Acts2:38 saved prior to the remission of sins?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

already answered it.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostHi Hogan:

The question was--were those of Acts2:38 saved prior to the remission of sins?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


already answered it.

Hi Hogan:

Cite, please--I cannot find that answer.

Hogan--the standard answer of the faith alone, when boxed into the corner the scriptures paint them into--is--"I already answered that"--"out of context"--"you don't understand the scriptures", etc, etc.

There is no answer for why the scriptures violate faith alone theology, other than faith alone theology just does not fit the Biblical testimony, doctrine, or witness, in many of their doctrines.

IOW--what we find in the Biblical text, as to salvational doctrines, in many instances--conflict with faith alone theology.

The Biblical NT and the LDS doctrines fit very well, in the sense ---what one finds in the Biblical NT--one will also find in the LDS church---as far as salvational doctrines go.

Matthew 28:19-20---King James Version (KJV)
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, p*** the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Romans 2:5-11----King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

[hogan60]

Hi Hogan:

Cite, please--I cannot find that answer.

Hogan--the standard answer of the faith alone, when boxed into the corner the scriptures paint them into--is--"I already answered that"--"out of context"--"you don't understand the scriptures", etc, etc.

There is no answer for why the scriptures violate faith alone theology, other than faith alone theology just does not fit the Biblical testimony, doctrine, or witness, in many of their doctrines.

IOW--what we find in the Biblical text, as to salvational doctrines, in many instances--conflict with faith alone theology.

The Biblical NT and the LDS doctrines fit very well, in the sense ---what one finds in the Biblical NT--one will also find in the LDS church---as far as salvational doctrines go.

Matthew 28:19-20---King James Version (KJV)
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, p*** the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Romans 2:5-11----King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Hi dberrie, The Scriptures do not violate faith alone theology. It is very clearly taught in the writings of Paul. The problem for the LDS is that they cannot accept faith alone, because Mormonism would fall flat on its face.

In an earlier post I asked you how was Abraham saved? Was it membership in a church? Obedience to the 10 Commandments. Practice of circumcision? What was it?

[dberrie2000]

Hi dberrie, The Scriptures do not violate faith alone theology.

Hello Hogan:

The Biblical NT and faith alone theology have precious little in common with one another:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Any theology which preaches a salvation through a faith without any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ will never comport with the Biblical NT:

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


It is very clearly taught in the writings of Paul.

The writings of Paul--never once--ever contained the term "faith alone". Paul never used that term--never--quite to the contrary:

Romans 6:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?


The problem for the LDS is that they cannot accept faith alone, because Mormonism would fall flat on its face.

All of Christianity would fail--and will, under faith alone theology:

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

The reason being--faith alone theology is a false theology.


In an earlier post I asked you how was Abraham saved? Was it membership in a church? Obedience to the 10 Commandments. Practice of circumcision? What was it?

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

[alanmolstad]

already answered it.

welcome to my world... :)

Here is n example of how this works out in the end,

We had a guy on this forum that seemed to get stuck in loop of always posting the same stuff over and over.
For a while some of the people that he was talking to would go over his post and answer it,,but it did not matter to the guy, for he would turn right around and say, "Why cant anyone answer these verses?" and post the same stuff over and over again.

It went on like that for a while....new people would pop on to the forum and answer his post , but would soon understand that the guy simply did not give a hoot what answers people gave him, he just had it in his mind that no one could answer his verses so he would pretend that no one had and keep posting the same stuff over and over again and again.


finally the members of the forum that had enough of his posting the same thing so many times in all his posts, and the guy was warned about it...

he did not respond well to that warning....


and so we had to get along with out him for a while..... :)

[hogan60]

Hello Hogan:

The Biblical NT and faith alone theology have precious little in common with one another:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Any theology which preaches a salvation through a faith without any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ will never comport with the Biblical NT:

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.



The writings of Paul--never once--ever contained the term "faith alone". Paul never used that term--never--quite to the contrary:

Romans 6:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?



All of Christianity would fail--and will, under faith alone theology:

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

The reason being--faith alone theology is a false theology.



Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Of course Paul taught faith alone. I'm sure you know Eph. 2: 2,9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

dberrie, if you must work for something is it a gift, yes or no?

[hogan60]

Hi Hogan:

The question was--were those of Acts2:38 saved prior to the remission of sins?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


dberrie, Hebrews tells us that there can be no remission of sins without the shedding of blood. For the OT people it was animal sacrifice. For us today its through the shed blood of Jesus Christ on the cross.

What do you believe remission of sins means?

[hogan60]

Hello Hogan:



Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Be careful that you do not mix law (Old Testament) with Grace (New Testament.) What commandments were Abraham obedient to? Was it the 10 Commandments?

[dberrie2000]

Quote Originally Posted by hogan60 In an earlier post I asked you how was Abraham saved? Was it membership in a church? Obedience to the 10 Commandments. Practice of circumcision? What was it?


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostHello Hogan:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.


Be careful that you do not mix law (Old Testament) with Grace (New Testament.) What commandments were Abraham obedient to? Was it the 10 Commandments?

Hi Hogan:

The Mosaic Law did not come until 400 years after Abraham.

Abraham was taught the gospel:

Galatians 3:8--King James Version (KJV)
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

The Mosaic Law was added to the gospel later:

Galatians 3:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

[hogan60]

Hi Hogan:

The Mosaic Law did not come until 400 years after Abraham.

Abraham was taught the gospel:

3:8--King James Version (KJV)
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

The Mosaic Law was added to the gospel later:

Galatians 3:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

What gospel was Abraham taught? Was it the same as the gospel Paul taught, the gospel that Christians today believe?

Gal 3:8 Read it again. It says that Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Heathens (Gentiles) through faith. The gospel (good news) to Abraham was the news of salvation for all the nations ( Gen. 12:3; 18:18; Gen. 22:18; John 8:56; Acts 26:22-23).


Gal. 3:19 doesn't say that the Mosaic law was added to the Gospel. It says that the law was given to Israel because of their transgressions . It was to show them their sinfulness.

Salvation has always, in every age, been by faith.

[dberrie2000]

What gospel was Abraham taught?

Hi Hogan:

The gospel of Jesus Christ--the same gospel as has always been:

Galatians3:8--King James Version (KJV)
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.


Was it the same as the gospel Paul taught, the gospel that Christians today believe?

Of course--the gospel does not change.


Gal 3:8 Read it again. It says that Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Heathens (Gentiles) through faith. The gospel (good news) to Abraham was the news of salvation for all the nations ( Gen. 12:3; 18:18; Gen. 22:18; John 8:56; Acts 26:22-23).

But that is the gospel message in all ages--where the gospel has been present. How does that change the fact it was the gospel?


Gal. 3:19 doesn't say that the Mosaic law was added to the Gospel.

Since the scriptures state the gospel was present with Abraham--and the Law was added with Moses--then what was it added to?

Galatians 3:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.


It says that the law was given to Israel because of their transgressions.

It states the law was "added" because of transgressions.

Hogan--that is important because of this reason: ---The things which Abraham had, and was part of the gospel before the Law was added--remained after the Law was fulfilled--such as the commandments--and is the reason Jesus could connect keeping the commandments with eternal life:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


It was to show them their sinfulness. Salvation has always, in every age, been by faith.

I agree--just not faith alone--obviously:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

James 2:24--New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[hogan60]

Hi Hogan:

The gospel of Jesus Christ--the same gospel as has always been:

Galatians3:8--King James Version (KJV)
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.



Of course--the gospel does not change.



But that is the gospel message in all ages--where the gospel has been present. How does that change the fact it was the gospel?



Since the scriptures state the gospel was present with Abraham--and the Law was added with Moses--then what was it added to?

Galatians 3:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.



It states the law was "added" because of transgressions.

Hogan--that is important because of this reason: ---The things which Abraham had, and was part of the gospel before the Law was added--remained after the Law was fulfilled--such as the commandments--and is the reason Jesus could connect keeping the commandments with eternal life:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.



I agree--just not faith alone--obviously:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

James 2:24--New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Whose transgressions is Galatians talking about? The Jews. The law was given to the nation of Israel. It was never meant for the Gentiles. (non Jews) The reason why God gave the law to Israel was to show them their sins. To show how far they have fallen because they kept backsliding.

Lev. 26:46 "These are the statutes and ordinances and laws which the LORD established between Himself and the sons of Israel through Moses at Mount Sinai."

Romans 9:4 "who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises."

The OT people, including Abraham, knew nothing about the gospel of grace which Paul taught. Not even Peter or the 11 fully understood it

2Peter 3:16 "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

Peter wasn't expected to to understand the gospel of grace because he was the apostle to the nation of Israel. Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, was taught the mystery of the gospel of grace by Christ himself.

Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery [secret] [B]which has been kept secret for long ages past (Romans 16.25)

[dberrie2000]

Whose transgressions is Galatians talking about? The Jews. The law was given to the nation of Israel. It was never meant for the Gentiles. (non Jews) The reason why God gave the law to Israel was to show them their sins. To show how far they have fallen because they kept backsliding.

Hi Hogan:

How does that address the fact the Law was added because of transgression?

Again--added to what?

Galatians 3:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.


Lev. 26:46 "These are the statutes and ordinances and laws which the LORD established between Himself and the sons of Israel through Moses at Mount Sinai."

Romans 9:4 "who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises."

The OT people, including Abraham, knew nothing about the gospel of grace which Paul taught. Not even Peter or the 11 fully understood it

2Peter 3:16 "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

Peter wasn't expected to to understand the gospel of grace because he was the apostle to the nation of Israel.

That does not even make sense to me.

[hogan60]

Hi Hogan:

How does that address the fact the Law was added because of transgression?

Again--added to what?

Galatians 3:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.



That does not even make sense to me.


dberrie, why do you adhere to a religion that teaches works and faithful obedience to the law as the way to salvation when the law was never given to non Jews? Since it was the transgressions of the Jews that was the reason God gave them the law in the first place, what does any of it have to do with you?

If the law was added to the Gospel, then why didn't Jesus praise the pharisees who were great law keepers and tell his apostles to be like them?

[hogan60]

Hi Hogan:

How does that address the fact the Law was added because of transgression?

Again--added to what?

Galatians 3:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.



That does not even make sense to me.


Are you familiar with the story of Lydia in Acts 16? She was a devout worshiper of God who did good works. She honored the sabbath. Was she saved? The Bible says that God sent Paul to preach the Gospel to Lydia. If obedience and works were required, then why did God send Paul to preach to her?

[dberrie2000]

Are you familiar with the story of Lydia in Acts 16? She was a devout worshiper of God who did good works. She honored the sabbath. Was she saved? The Bible says that God sent Paul to preach the Gospel to Lydia. If obedience and works were required, then why did God send Paul to preach to her?

Hi Hogan:

Pauls' message would have been the same for Lydia:

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

[hogan60]

Hi Hogan:

Pauls' message would have been the same for Lydia:

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Lydia was a Jew. A devout God worshiper. In Acts 10 we also read about Cornelius, a roman (Gentile) Centurion and a Jewish proselyte. He was a God worshiper, a devout man who prayed regularly and gave to charity. Seems these people were observing the law. Were they saved? Hardly. Otherwise, why would God send Paul and Peter to preach to them? Because being religious is not enough to save a person.They needed the Gospel of Jesus Christ. They needed to believe in His atoning work on the cross for their salvation. Peter didn't preach works to Cornelius. He preached about the death and resurrection.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Hi Hogan:

Pauls' message would have been the same for Lydia:

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.


Lydia was a Jew. A devout God worshiper.

So was Paul. So were all the NT writers.

[hogan60]

So was Paul. So were all the NT writers.

What did Paul have that Lydia and Cornelius not have? The Gospel of Jesus Christ. Religion does not save anyone. Obedience to laws, ordinances, church rules cannot save. The only thing that can save us is Christ's atoning work on the cross. Its not what WE do, but what Christ did,

1 John 5:11-12: "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

The above is a promise of God of salvation through the Son and our ***urance of that salvation. Does God ever lie?

[dberrie2000]

What did Paul have that Lydia and Cornelius not have? The Gospel of Jesus Christ. Religion does not save anyone. Obedience to laws, ordinances, church rules cannot save. The only thing that can save us is Christ's atoning work on the cross. Its not what WE do, but what Christ did,

It's both--as the scriptures testify to:

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

A covenant is an agreement between two or more parties--not just a single party.

Where do you see God being judged here for His works--and that for life or ****ation?

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

That testifies all will be judged according to works--after death--and that for life or ****ation.

How do you fit that into faith alone theology?

How does that differ from other testimonies?

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

[hogan60]

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.



2 Cor. 5:10, note Paul uses the word "we". He is including himself. He's talking about born again Believers appearing before Christ to be judged on types of rewards. Has nothing to do with one's salvation.

[dberrie2000]

2 Cor. 5:10, note Paul uses the word "we". He is including himself. He's talking about born again Believers appearing before Christ to be judged on types of rewards.

Hi Hogan:

I agree--and what those rewards are were defined by Christ Himself:

John 5:28-29--King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.


Has nothing to do with one's salvation.

I believe "life" has a lot to do with salvation.